Scott_Galloway_-_TikTok_Is_A_Chinese_PsyOp_Not_Social_Media
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00:01:00.000 | Give me your thoughts on TikTok.
00:01:02.000 | I know that you dug into some of the research around that,
00:01:05.000 | the way that it's been weaponized, and also the impact that it's having on young people.
00:01:09.000 | So let me just start off by saying I love TikTok.
00:01:13.000 | I think it's an extraordinary product.
00:01:15.000 | I think it was genius to take a platform and say it shouldn't be social.
00:01:19.000 | It's not about what your friends think about you.
00:01:21.000 | It's not about choices.
00:01:23.000 | It's not about finding anything you want, like YouTube.
00:01:25.000 | It's not about feeling bad about yourself because you don't have a six-pack
00:01:29.000 | or you're not as rich as your friends on Instagram.
00:01:31.000 | It's about a streaming media platform where there's no choice.
00:01:34.000 | You have one choice.
00:01:35.000 | You tap the logo, and it immediately starts calibrating based on what you like,
00:01:39.000 | what you swipe up, swipe down on.
00:01:41.000 | And before you know it, you're in the ultimate, tailored, individualized, singular
00:01:45.000 | streaming media network that is just addictive.
00:01:49.000 | I could go on to TikTok right now and for a couple hours just watch it.
00:01:53.000 | I think my 12-year-old boy, if he had his way, would disappear into his room
00:01:57.000 | with his phone, put diapers on so he could watch TikTok for 72 hours straight
00:02:01.000 | and not have a bathroom break.
00:02:02.000 | I think this thing is an amazing product.
00:02:05.000 | The issue is if I were a member of the CCP and I saw that we had vested interests
00:02:12.000 | in diminishing America's standing strategically in the world
00:02:16.000 | and that the easiest way to do that was not with kinetic power
00:02:19.000 | because we don't have the capital that the U.S. has to spend
00:02:21.000 | on aircraft carrier fleets or even through corporate espionage,
00:02:25.000 | and they do a great job of that, I would just take my thumb
00:02:29.000 | and very elegantly and insidiously put it on the scales of content
00:02:35.000 | that reflects America in a bad light.
00:02:37.000 | So whether you're Kim Kardashian or Joe Rogan or Jonathan Haidt,
00:02:41.000 | a lot of your content reflects America in a very positive light.
00:02:44.000 | And a lot of your content highlights the problems we have.
00:02:48.000 | It would be very easy.
00:02:49.000 | I believe they're doing this now.
00:02:51.000 | I think they'd be stupid not to do this and put their thumb
00:02:53.000 | on the scale of content that says our elections are being weaponized,
00:02:57.000 | racism in the U.S. has not gotten better, it's gotten worse,
00:03:01.000 | that capitalism does not work, that you can't trust your leaders,
00:03:05.000 | and slowly but surely raise a generation of Americans,
00:03:08.000 | of civic leaders, military leaders, business leaders,
00:03:11.000 | that feel bad about America and also aren't focused
00:03:15.000 | on the human rights violations in China.
00:03:19.000 | But basically, if you think of geopolitics as a horror movie,
00:03:24.000 | it's not outside threats right now.
00:03:28.000 | We are stronger than we've ever been, I would argue, competitively.
00:03:31.000 | No one's lining up for Chinese or Russian vaccines.
00:03:34.000 | Our GDP growth hasn't matched China's, but it's more consistent.
00:03:37.000 | The smartest, brightest, hardest-working people in the world
00:03:40.000 | all have one thing in common, and that is they like the idea
00:03:42.000 | of either getting to Europe or getting to the United States especially.
00:03:45.000 | So we're the football team that gets the top draft choices
00:03:48.000 | every year from every high school in the world.
00:03:51.000 | So we're doing really well. But the horror movie would be that horror movie
00:03:54.000 | where they say the call is coming from inside the house.
00:03:57.000 | We're eating each other in the U.S. internally.
00:03:59.000 | A third of Republicans and Democrats see the other party,
00:04:02.000 | members of the other party, as their mortal enemy.
00:04:05.000 | 25% of America is comfortable with an autocrat
00:04:08.000 | as long as the autocrat represents his or her ideals.
00:04:11.000 | 54% of Democrats are worried that their kid is going to marry a Republican.
00:04:15.000 | And so the fastest way to atomize, or the fastest way to defeat an enemy
00:04:20.000 | is atomize them. And I think TikTok, when you have kids under the age of 18
00:04:25.000 | spending more time on TikTok than they spend on every streaming media company combined,
00:04:29.000 | would we be comfortable with Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, HBO Max
00:04:34.000 | all being owned by China? And I don't think we would.
00:04:37.000 | So I think there needs to be a separation between ownership and the product.
00:04:42.000 | I think that Meta was the ultimate espionage product.
00:04:46.000 | I don't think the Mossad, the NSA, the GRU, MI6, and their wildest dreams
00:04:49.000 | could have come up with Meta.
00:04:52.000 | And I think we're going to find out that our ability to take out
00:04:55.000 | some of these Taliban leaders has been a function of their niece
00:04:58.000 | being on Instagram with GPS drone.
00:05:01.000 | And I also realize this sounds paranoid, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong.
00:05:04.000 | I think after the senators and elected leaders in America
00:05:07.000 | have their photo ops berating Mark Zuckerberg,
00:05:10.000 | they go into a confidential hearing and he says,
00:05:13.000 | "Do you want us to continue help killing Taliban leaders?"
00:05:16.000 | And they say, "Yes." And he says, "Well, back the fuck off."
00:05:18.000 | I think that's why we haven't had any meaningful legislation
00:05:20.000 | against the big American platforms.
00:05:22.000 | But anyways, the ultimate propaganda tool is TikTok.
00:05:25.000 | I just don't-- I think they would be stupid not to do this.
00:05:28.000 | And I think we're naive to think that they won't be able to do it easily.
00:05:31.000 | And I think we should-- I think it presents a real national security risk.
00:05:34.000 | The wild thing is that TikTok content that is disintegrating America
00:05:41.000 | or reducing patriotic feelings towards it is generated by US citizens.
00:05:46.000 | In America.
00:05:48.000 | Yeah, this isn't the Chinese creating content.
00:05:51.000 | But because of the dynamic of audience capture
00:05:54.000 | and the reinforcement mechanism of getting that status response,
00:05:57.000 | you can press your hand on the scale that rewards creators
00:06:01.000 | that create a particular type of narrative,
00:06:04.000 | and that-- it turns every individual TikTok user
00:06:09.000 | that cares to talk about politics to be more likely
00:06:12.000 | an unwitting, unwilling CCP agent.
00:06:16.000 | It's so brilliant and insidious at the same time.
00:06:19.000 | And by the way, let's wrap all of this in really joyous dance videos,
00:06:23.000 | which makes it all feel really benign.
00:06:25.000 | Even optimistic.
00:06:27.000 | It was done to a Justin Bieber-- the catastrophe and the apocalypse
00:06:30.000 | will be done to a Justin Bieber soundtrack, so it doesn't really matter.
00:06:33.000 | It all feel good.
00:06:35.000 | And you don't even have to put your thumb on the scale of certain individuals
00:06:38.000 | and not others.
00:06:40.000 | It can be the content from the same individual.
00:06:42.000 | In this podcast, I will talk about very hopeful things for America.
00:06:48.000 | I don't think there's anything wrong we can't fix.
00:06:51.000 | 50% of the world's philanthropy originates from U.S. institutions.
00:06:56.000 | If you were to have one global headline, news headline for the last 100 years,
00:07:00.000 | it would be that British, Russians, and the Americans turned back fascism.
00:07:03.000 | The one headline for the last 50 years would be unprecedented global prosperity
00:07:07.000 | led by America.
00:07:09.000 | I'll also talk about failing young men in the U.S.
00:07:12.000 | and how they're struggling, and they've never done--
00:07:14.000 | young men have never followed-- that cohort has fallen further, faster
00:07:18.000 | in the U.S. than in history.
00:07:20.000 | If you're TikTok and you have a series of 30-second clips
00:07:25.000 | and you're with the CCP, which narrative do you want to see rolling more often?
00:07:30.000 | And it's just super, super easy.
00:07:33.000 | They could just take-- they don't need to produce their own content.
00:07:36.000 | They just need to tweak the algorithm to say,
00:07:39.000 | "In the same 60 minutes, an individual will have pro-
00:07:42.000 | and anti-American content, and we're just going to slowly but surely
00:07:45.000 | dial up the anti-American content."
00:07:48.000 | It's from someone you trust.
00:07:50.000 | It's from someone who also has pro-American content,
00:07:53.000 | so you think their content is credible.
00:07:55.000 | Let's create a lot of doubt about the efficacy of the vaccines
00:07:58.000 | when there's thoughtful discourse on both sides.
00:08:01.000 | I would argue 90-plus percent of the thoughtful discourse about vaccines
00:08:05.000 | says on a risk-adjusted basis, "You should get a vaccine."
00:08:08.000 | And then 10% or less is doctors saying, "It alters your DNA."
00:08:15.000 | If I'm the CCP and I want to create controversy
00:08:18.000 | and I want to get us hating each other more,
00:08:20.000 | let's make that content 50/50.
00:08:22.000 | Let's have everyone go at each other over the vaccines.
00:08:26.000 | So I would say just, quite frankly, if I were them, that's what I would do.
00:08:31.000 | Why spend money on aircraft carriers?
00:08:34.000 | Why compete on 11 playing field when we have this Trojan horse
00:08:40.000 | the size of Montana residing in the US
00:08:44.000 | and we have this vehicle that the upcoming generation of Americans love
00:08:49.000 | in just a few small tweaks and slowly but surely--
00:08:52.000 | They won't even know-- The movie "The Sting,"
00:08:54.000 | I don't know if you saw it, with Robert Redford and Paul Newman,
00:08:58.000 | but the key to a great con is the mark never knows they were conned.
00:09:04.000 | We're all victims of propaganda right now.
00:09:06.000 | We all see con on the left and on the right that sways our view,
00:09:10.000 | but we don't think we've been fooled.
00:09:12.000 | It's much easier to fool someone than convince them they've been fooled
00:09:15.000 | because to acknowledge you've been fooled is like saying,
00:09:18.000 | "I acknowledge I'm an ass. I acknowledge someone's gotten the better of me,"
00:09:21.000 | and people don't like that.
00:09:23.000 | So I think it's happening now,
00:09:25.000 | and I don't think we know what's even happening to us.
00:09:28.000 | We also don't know what's happening in China.
00:09:30.000 | I don't know how much truth is behind this,
00:09:32.000 | but I've heard that the Chinese algorithm on TikTok
00:09:34.000 | shows a very different sort of world.
00:09:36.000 | It's young Chinese people doing engineering and being smart
00:09:39.000 | and conscientious and admirable and patriotic.
00:09:43.000 | Another consideration is 9.6 trillion minutes of Netflix watched in 2021,
00:09:51.000 | 22.6 trillion minutes of TikTok watched in 2021.
00:09:57.000 | Given the fact that a TikTok video at most can be 60 seconds
00:10:02.000 | and probably the average Netflix thing is 30 minutes,
00:10:07.000 | that blows my mind.
00:10:09.000 | It's staggering, and to your point,
00:10:12.000 | the Chinese version of TikTok, and it's Douyin,
00:10:17.000 | it's all aspirational.
00:10:20.000 | Look at this kid from Shenzhen who's a concert pianist.
00:10:23.000 | Look at the incredible research we're doing.
00:10:26.000 | Look at these kids, what they're building in their high school.
00:10:31.000 | It's all uplifting.
00:10:33.000 | No politics. None at all.
00:10:36.000 | So this is what the Chinese have decided they want their youth to see.
00:10:41.000 | - Could that not be an argument that in China,
00:10:43.000 | talking about the CCP in any way that's not positive
00:10:46.000 | would be difficult to do, no matter how you put your finger
00:10:49.000 | on the balance of the platform?
00:10:52.000 | They have a broader structure that stops people from doing that.
00:10:55.000 | - 100%, and some people would argue they shouldn't be our role model.
00:10:58.000 | But even if you take the societal issues
00:11:03.000 | and the complicated conversation around censorship in media,
00:11:05.000 | because whenever you hear the words "ban" and "media"
00:11:08.000 | in the same sentence, you should understandably have a gag reflex,
00:11:11.000 | because I think one of the keys to a productive democratic society
00:11:14.000 | is that pretty much anyone can say pretty much anything
00:11:17.000 | about pretty much anyone else.
00:11:19.000 | I do think that's super important.
00:11:21.000 | But take that, push that aside.
00:11:24.000 | Should Chinese sectors and companies have unfettered access
00:11:28.000 | to our markets when we have absolutely none to theirs?
00:11:32.000 | Twitter, Google, Meta, what's our access over there?
00:11:37.000 | Zero.
00:11:39.000 | We have limited access.
00:11:41.000 | We have just enough access initially,
00:11:43.000 | and they create body language and a head fake
00:11:45.000 | that they might let us be in there,
00:11:47.000 | just long enough so they can steal the intellectual property.
00:11:49.000 | They then prop up a local entrepreneur,
00:11:51.000 | fund that local entrepreneur, and their attitude is,
00:11:53.000 | "We can steal the Google algorithm,
00:11:55.000 | "or create a reasonable facsimile."
00:11:58.000 | And there's probably a $200-300 billion company,
00:12:02.000 | a search engine, that can just feed off the domestic market.
00:12:05.000 | What do you know? It's Baidu.
00:12:07.000 | Why on earth are we going to go the Western way
00:12:10.000 | and do what Italy or South Korea does
00:12:13.000 | and let our newspapers go out of business
00:12:15.000 | and let all of the shareholder value transfer to California?
00:12:18.000 | I mean, you've got to admire them.
00:12:21.000 | From a Chinese standpoint, it's smart.
00:12:23.000 | - It's really, really...
00:12:24.000 | Meanwhile, they're limiting the amount of time
00:12:26.000 | that their children can play video games.
00:12:28.000 | One hour between 8 and 9 p.m. Friday, Saturday, Sunday per week.
00:12:32.000 | That's it.
00:12:33.000 | The only way that you can play games is through a streaming service.
00:12:36.000 | The streaming service just-- Just flick the switch.
00:12:38.000 | It's just not on. You can't do it.
00:12:40.000 | What's happening, people?
00:12:42.000 | If you enjoyed that, then press here for the full unedited episode.
00:12:46.000 | And don't forget to subscribe.
00:12:48.000 | Peace.
00:12:50.000 | [music]
00:12:59.000 | The holidays start here at Ralph's
00:13:01.000 | with a variety of options to celebrate traditions old and new.
00:13:05.000 | Whether you're making a traditional roasted turkey
00:13:08.000 | or spicy turkey tacos,
00:13:10.000 | your go-to shrimp cocktail,
00:13:12.000 | or your first Cajun risotto,
00:13:14.000 | Ralph's has all the freshest ingredients to embrace your traditions.
00:13:17.000 | Ralph's. Fresh for Everyone.
00:13:20.000 | Choose from a great selection of digital coupons
00:13:22.000 | and use them up to five times in one transaction.
00:13:24.000 | Check our app for details.
00:13:26.000 | Ralph's. Fresh for Everyone.