John Clarke: The Art of Fighting and the Pursuit of Excellence

00:00:00.000 | "The following is a conversation with John Clark.

00:00:02.520 | "He's a friend, a Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt,

00:00:05.620 | "former MMA fighter, and at least in my opinion,

00:00:08.960 | "one of the great UFC cornerman coaches to listen to.

00:00:12.300 | "And also, he's my current jiu-jitsu coach

00:00:15.180 | "at Broadway Jiu-Jitsu in South Boston.

00:00:17.580 | "He was once, for a time, a philosophy major in college,

00:00:22.140 | "and is now, I would say, a kind of practicing philosopher,

00:00:26.300 | "opinionated, brilliant,

00:00:28.340 | "and someone I always enjoy talking to,

00:00:30.300 | "even when, especially when, we disagree,

00:00:34.360 | "which we do often.

00:00:36.080 | "He's definitely someone I can see talking to

00:00:37.980 | "many times on this podcast.

00:00:39.900 | "In fact, he hosts a new podcast of his own

00:00:43.240 | "called Please Allow Me.

00:00:45.740 | "Quick mention of each sponsor,

00:00:48.400 | "followed by some thoughts related to the episode.

00:00:50.820 | "Thank you to Theragun,

00:00:52.860 | "the device I use for post-workout muscle recovery,

00:00:56.020 | "Magic Spoon low-carb, keto-friendly cereal

00:00:58.700 | "that I think is delicious,

00:01:00.600 | "8sleep, a mattress that cools itself

00:01:03.220 | "and gives me yet another reason to enjoy sleep,

00:01:06.020 | "and Cash App, the app I use to send money to friends.

00:01:09.800 | "Please check out these sponsors in the description

00:01:12.380 | "to get a discount and to support this podcast.

00:01:15.560 | "As a side note, let me say that martial arts,

00:01:18.120 | "especially jiu-jitsu and judo,

00:01:20.020 | "have been a big part of my growth as a human being.

00:01:22.860 | "So I think I will talk to a few martial artists

00:01:25.260 | "on occasion on this podcast.

00:01:27.180 | "I hope that is of interest to you.

00:01:29.420 | "I won't talk to people who are simply great fighters

00:01:31.820 | "or great athletes, but people who have a philosophy

00:01:34.940 | "that I find to be interesting and worth exploring,

00:01:37.540 | "even if I disagree with parts or most of it.

00:01:41.420 | "I like alternating between historians

00:01:43.340 | "and computer scientists, fighters and biologists,

00:01:46.320 | "and between totally different world views and personalities

00:01:49.900 | "like Elon Musk and Michael Malice.

00:01:53.240 | "This world, to me, is fascinating

00:01:56.220 | "because of the diversity of weirdness

00:01:58.700 | "that is human civilization.

00:02:00.820 | "I love the weird and the brilliant,

00:02:03.280 | "and hope you join me on the journey of exploring both.

00:02:06.500 | "If you don't like an episode, skip it.

00:02:09.260 | "For an OCD person like myself,

00:02:11.260 | "sometimes not listening to a podcast episode

00:02:14.060 | "is an act of courage.

00:02:15.940 | "It's like not finishing a book

00:02:17.340 | "even though you're 80% done.

00:02:19.520 | "Try it sometimes.

00:02:21.100 | "Listen to ones you like,

00:02:22.640 | "and don't listen to the ones you don't like.

00:02:24.900 | "I know, it's profound advice.

00:02:27.820 | "If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube,

00:02:30.260 | "review it with Five Stars and Apple Podcast,

00:02:32.380 | "follow on Spotify, support on Patreon,

00:02:35.040 | "or connect with me on Twitter @LexFriedman.

00:02:38.760 | "And now, here's my conversation with John Clark."

00:02:42.840 | You ready for this?

00:02:45.220 | - I've been ready for this my whole life.

00:02:46.700 | - All right.

00:02:47.520 | I was thinking of doing a Kerouac-style road trip

00:02:50.020 | across the United States,

00:02:51.500 | after this whole COVID thing lifts.

00:02:54.900 | You ever take a trip like that?

00:02:56.780 | - I've done a handful of long-distance driving trips

00:02:59.780 | up and down the East Coast,

00:03:02.420 | but also from the West Coast back to the East Coast,

00:03:06.500 | and then returning to California.

00:03:08.580 | So I've definitely done my fair share of driving

00:03:11.640 | in this country.

00:03:12.540 | - Do you have the longing for the Great American Road Trip?

00:03:15.460 | - I think there are so many things

00:03:18.380 | that I've been lucky enough to see in the world

00:03:20.540 | that I now, at this point in my life,

00:03:22.060 | realize there are tons of things

00:03:23.900 | that I need to see here in this country.

00:03:26.300 | And a road trip could potentially be the best way

00:03:28.780 | to see them.

00:03:29.660 | I think to do it effectively,

00:03:32.020 | you need an amount of time

00:03:34.180 | where you can be as leisurely as possible.

00:03:36.580 | There's no deadline, and there's no,

00:03:38.500 | I've got to make it from Chicago to St. Louis by sundown

00:03:41.500 | to get to this place at this time.

00:03:43.540 | I think you really need to be able to take your time

00:03:45.980 | and kind of let the road take you where you need to go.

00:03:50.980 | - It feels like you need a mission, though, ultimately.

00:03:54.220 | There's a reason you need to be in San Francisco.

00:03:56.180 | That's like the Kerouac thing.

00:03:57.780 | You have to meet somebody somewhere,

00:03:59.420 | kind of loosely in a few weeks,

00:04:01.020 | and then it's the, as you struggle on towards that mission,

00:04:06.020 | you meet weird characters that get in your way,

00:04:08.540 | but ultimately sort of create an experience.

00:04:11.540 | - I think having a loose deadline is good,

00:04:13.620 | but that's a beginning and an end point.

00:04:16.100 | And what I mean is I don't want to have to be,

00:04:18.540 | all right, we're leaving, say, Boston on Sunday night.

00:04:22.300 | Let's get to New York by Monday morning,

00:04:25.220 | and then from New York, we're going to go to Philly,

00:04:27.700 | and we've got to be in Philly at four.

00:04:29.820 | A vague beginning and end is fine,

00:04:32.120 | but I think having very strict guidelines in between

00:04:36.540 | will rob you of certain experiences along the way.

00:04:39.820 | - If you have a timeframe to get from Philly to Indianapolis

00:04:43.900 | and some awesome shit starts to happen in Philly,

00:04:46.100 | do you really want to have to cut it short

00:04:47.460 | because you've got to be in Indianapolis by sunup?

00:04:50.300 | - Why do you have to be anywhere by any time

00:04:52.700 | for any reason, really?

00:04:54.260 | Plans change.

00:04:55.540 | - Plans change all the time, exactly.

00:04:57.020 | But if we're talking about having a mission

00:05:00.180 | or the type of road trip,

00:05:01.980 | I just think it would be best to have it

00:05:04.100 | as loose and flexible as possible.

00:05:07.700 | - I don't know.

00:05:08.540 | You've got to make hard deadlines and then break them.

00:05:12.340 | Totally change the plans, disappoint people,

00:05:14.500 | break promises.

00:05:15.700 | That's the way of life.

00:05:17.100 | Somebody's waiting for you in St. Louis,

00:05:19.220 | and all of a sudden you fell in love

00:05:21.580 | with a biker in New York.

00:05:23.660 | I don't know.

00:05:24.500 | I don't know what you're up to.

00:05:25.460 | - I can appreciate that,

00:05:26.700 | but on a trip like that, I feel like a trip with deadlines

00:05:33.120 | is for a different point in your life.

00:05:34.940 | And at this point in my life,

00:05:36.000 | I don't want any of the deadlines

00:05:37.500 | because it's not about meeting someone

00:05:39.780 | and disappointing them in St. Louis.

00:05:41.660 | It's about me not disappointing myself.

00:05:45.360 | You want to have enough time in what you're doing

00:05:48.380 | to make sure that you get the full breadth

00:05:50.540 | of every experience that you encounter.

00:05:52.840 | - How would you fully experience a place?

00:05:55.380 | How would you?

00:05:56.220 | I don't think I've actually fully experienced Boston.

00:05:59.180 | If you were showing up to a city for a week

00:06:02.120 | on this road trip, what would you do?

00:06:04.460 | - So I'm gonna answer that in two parts.

00:06:06.620 | A few years ago, I had an opportunity to move out of Boston

00:06:09.100 | and the thing that kept me here,

00:06:11.380 | no question about it was the fact that I felt like

00:06:13.380 | I had a contract with my students.

00:06:17.340 | And I did not, I felt like a great many of them

00:06:20.540 | took a leap of faith by joining my gym

00:06:23.300 | and asking me to teach them what I know.

00:06:26.340 | And when I had an opportunity to leave Boston,

00:06:29.380 | I thought of those people and I thought,

00:06:31.260 | I want to fulfill my obligation to them.

00:06:33.580 | So because I made a decision to stay here,

00:06:35.860 | I then that summer made a decision to endear myself

00:06:38.500 | to the city of Boston.

00:06:39.480 | And I tried to find lots and lots of different things to do.

00:06:42.380 | I can tell you that the coolest thing that I found to do

00:06:44.700 | in this city is the MFA,

00:06:47.560 | where they have like on Friday nights,

00:06:50.580 | they'll have like different exhibits and stuff.

00:06:52.460 | And they'll have like little beer carts and food tents

00:06:55.180 | and you can go do a painting class off on the side,

00:06:59.080 | very cool night of things to do.

00:07:01.700 | But in general, whenever I'm in a new city,

00:07:04.620 | I try not to pay attention to Google

00:07:06.620 | and I try not to do anything that I find on a travel site.

00:07:10.180 | The best thing to do is to walk out of your hotel

00:07:13.220 | or wherever it is you're staying

00:07:14.540 | and find the most normal looking bar,

00:07:17.260 | have a drink and talk to a bartender.

00:07:19.300 | - So the people, the people.

00:07:21.020 | - The people, and then you can experience that town

00:07:23.460 | the way that they experience it.

00:07:25.580 | Even in a city where there are tons of tourist attractions,

00:07:28.900 | locals probably visit the same tourist attractions

00:07:32.300 | when they have visitors come from out of town.

00:07:34.140 | You wanna see how they view those places

00:07:36.740 | and how they visit them.

00:07:38.100 | And you wanna go to eat where they're going to eat.

00:07:40.700 | Like, you're gonna, for the most part,

00:07:44.700 | the North end is not a place where I would take someone

00:07:47.140 | and say, "Hey, this is Boston's,

00:07:49.540 | the pinnacle of Boston dining."

00:07:51.380 | 'Cause it's very touristy.

00:07:52.460 | There are a handful of really good restaurants there,

00:07:54.360 | but I wanna know where the,

00:07:56.580 | I wanna go to Bogie's Place.

00:07:57.900 | I wanna know like the down low spots where-

00:08:00.540 | - The hell's Bogie's Place?

00:08:01.580 | - It's like a little steakhouse in the back of JM Curley's.

00:08:04.100 | - Exactly.

00:08:04.940 | - It's like a shitty bar, the JM Curley's?

00:08:06.740 | - It's just a bar with like bar food.

00:08:09.140 | But I think that like-

00:08:10.340 | - It's not Boston?

00:08:12.420 | - It is in Boston, yeah.

00:08:13.260 | - It's not South Boston?

00:08:14.260 | - No, it's in the downtown area.

00:08:18.780 | I don't know what the neighborhoods are called here,

00:08:21.900 | honestly, because they have an area called Downtown Boston,

00:08:25.300 | and I don't even know what the hell that means.

00:08:27.140 | I think it's near the financial district.

00:08:28.340 | - Where's Southie?

00:08:29.500 | 'Cause I've heard about the Southie.

00:08:31.140 | - Southie is South Boston.

00:08:33.060 | - But is there a difference between South Boston and Southie?

00:08:36.460 | - No, it's the same thing.

00:08:37.820 | - No, but like, you know, the mythical Southie.

00:08:39.420 | - I think the mythical Southie

00:08:41.340 | is something that's long gone now.

00:08:44.100 | And the term now actually is Sobo.

00:08:49.020 | - Oh no.

00:08:49.860 | - Yeah, it's-

00:08:50.700 | - It's changed what, who took over what?

00:08:52.860 | What's the, you know, the goodwill hunting personality?

00:08:55.300 | That's Southie, isn't it?

00:08:56.340 | Strong accent, those bad-ass dudes.

00:08:58.500 | - I came here right at the end of like

00:09:00.900 | what was South Boston.

00:09:02.340 | So when I got, and my gym is in South Boston,

00:09:05.140 | the neighborhood was just starting to change.

00:09:07.580 | So I think as gentrification happened

00:09:12.580 | and they started building more luxury condominiums,

00:09:16.960 | they were buying all these old businesses out,

00:09:18.700 | all the mom and pop businesses.

00:09:19.940 | And I think that kind of changed

00:09:23.580 | the makeup of the community.

00:09:25.900 | And it wasn't only because there was an influx

00:09:28.020 | of new young people with disposable income,

00:09:31.260 | it's because there's an exodus of the older people

00:09:34.300 | who kind of grew up and raised their families there

00:09:35.900 | because they were being offered

00:09:37.180 | humongous sums of money for their homes

00:09:39.100 | that they had bought like in the late '70s and early '80s

00:09:41.580 | so that they could develop those areas.

00:09:43.300 | So you have a combination of the influx of new people

00:09:46.100 | and the exodus of the old,

00:09:47.580 | and now you just got this totally new neighborhood

00:09:49.740 | in its place.

00:09:50.980 | - What do you love about Boston?

00:09:53.620 | Is there a love still for Boston?

00:09:58.620 | You certainly have the love of the thing

00:10:00.340 | that's gone as well.

00:10:01.860 | - Yeah, I think, I don't wanna pin this on Boston

00:10:05.140 | because it's happening in all great cities.

00:10:08.100 | As these areas become gentrified,

00:10:10.220 | what's happening is the personality

00:10:11.740 | and the character of the neighborhood

00:10:13.020 | is just being run out.

00:10:15.020 | And I have nothing against people coming in

00:10:16.980 | and making money and things like that.

00:10:18.300 | But when you do it at the expense of the culture,

00:10:21.460 | the character and the personality of the neighborhood,

00:10:24.460 | I mean, you're kind of standing on the shoulders of giants.

00:10:27.220 | These are the people that came here

00:10:28.420 | and built these areas up.

00:10:30.260 | It happens here in Boston,

00:10:31.860 | it happens in all over New York,

00:10:34.620 | happened on the West Coast.

00:10:36.740 | So what I love about Boston is not nearly as romantic

00:10:41.240 | as what it might've been 15 years ago

00:10:43.060 | and what I used to love about New York.

00:10:45.140 | What I love about Boston is that it's walkable.

00:10:50.100 | The food scene is on the rise here,

00:10:55.900 | but I think you're hard pressed to find the charm

00:10:59.660 | that people think of when they think of old Boston

00:11:03.460 | and old New England city.

00:11:04.660 | - See, I see it differently.

00:11:05.900 | People sometimes criticize like MIT

00:11:08.180 | for the thing that it is now,

00:11:11.460 | but I think it is always like that.

00:11:13.640 | I tend to prefer to carry the flame of the greatness,

00:11:20.060 | the greatest moments of its history

00:11:22.520 | and sort of enjoy the echoes of that in the halls of MIT.

00:11:27.360 | In the same way in Boston, you think about the history

00:11:29.880 | and that history lives on in the few individuals.

00:11:33.400 | You can't just look around where Boston is now

00:11:37.000 | and be like, what has Boston become?

00:11:38.880 | I think it was always carried by a minority of individuals.

00:11:43.480 | I think we kind of look back in history

00:11:46.080 | and think times were greater

00:11:48.500 | in a certain kind of dimension back then,

00:11:50.460 | but that's because we remember,

00:11:52.900 | this is a ridiculous non-data driven assertion of mine,

00:11:57.480 | is we remember just the brightest stars of that history

00:12:02.480 | and so we romanticize it.

00:12:04.240 | But I think if you look around now,

00:12:05.900 | those special people are still living in Boston

00:12:08.040 | for which Boston will be remembered as a great city

00:12:10.560 | in like 50 years.

00:12:12.000 | - I think you're probably right,

00:12:12.980 | but isn't there some sort of theory about

00:12:18.720 | there's like a certain age in your life

00:12:20.640 | where things resonate differently to you?

00:12:22.680 | I think they've done studies where most people

00:12:24.880 | stop searching for new music after age 19.

00:12:28.120 | Most dads you see wearing super old clothes,

00:12:31.440 | that's the style of the time period

00:12:33.880 | of the last great part of their life.

00:12:35.980 | So there's an evolution in people

00:12:38.760 | and it could also be the memories of where they live.

00:12:41.600 | When I was 17, of course, my neighborhood was the best then

00:12:44.940 | because I was having the most fun.

00:12:46.560 | And we always kind of look at things through that tint,

00:12:49.680 | I think.

00:12:50.720 | And you're right.

00:12:51.920 | And I don't think there's anything wrong

00:12:53.140 | with the way cities are evolving now.

00:12:55.640 | It's just not, I prefer the time of like a mom and pop store

00:13:00.640 | not a fabricated like gastro pub that could just be like

00:13:06.420 | on a four lane super highway

00:13:08.360 | on your way out of Epcot Center.

00:13:10.560 | And it's actually owned by like some conglomerate.

00:13:13.480 | - But there's still the special places.

00:13:16.080 | This takes us back to the road trip is maybe,

00:13:20.680 | I tend to romanticize the experiences of like the diners

00:13:23.560 | in the middle of nowhere.

00:13:25.520 | What would you say makes for like,

00:13:27.900 | it feels like life is made up of these experiences

00:13:33.240 | that maybe on paper seem mundane,

00:13:36.440 | but are actually somehow give you a chance to pause

00:13:40.520 | and reflect on life with like a certain kind of people,

00:13:45.120 | whether like really close friends or complete strangers,

00:13:47.920 | maybe alcohol is involved in the middle of nowhere.

00:13:50.040 | It seems like road trip facilitates that if you allow it to.

00:13:54.120 | Like, what do you think makes for those kinds of experience?

00:13:56.000 | Have you had any?

00:13:56.900 | - I think in the context of a road trip,

00:14:00.640 | I think it's like hyper localization.

00:14:02.880 | And I think it is those experiences along the way

00:14:07.880 | with people and the people that you're with

00:14:14.260 | will color the experiences differently

00:14:15.680 | depending on the person.

00:14:17.880 | - The road trip you took was with somebody else or alone?

00:14:20.040 | - So I've driven up and down the East Coast several times.

00:14:23.280 | When I drove from LA to New York,

00:14:26.760 | my friend was on the run from the cops.

00:14:29.360 | So we were trying to get out of--

00:14:32.360 | - Traffic tickets?

00:14:33.280 | - Yeah, traffic tickets. - Allegedly.

00:14:34.560 | - Yeah, allegedly.

00:14:35.560 | We were trying to get out of LA

00:14:37.000 | because he was going to have to go away for a little while.

00:14:40.560 | So we drove from LA and we just,

00:14:43.200 | we were young kids, we had no idea what we were doing.

00:14:45.140 | And we drove East.

00:14:46.880 | And then we had an unbelievable trip,

00:14:49.720 | mostly because we didn't really have a destination,

00:14:52.040 | we didn't really have a timeframe, thank goodness,

00:14:54.800 | 'cause he got arrested again in Pennsylvania.

00:14:57.140 | So we got kind of stuck there.

00:14:59.120 | And then we drove back to LA when he got out in Pennsylvania

00:15:03.960 | but all the stops along the way

00:15:08.040 | were kind of like weird things.

00:15:10.840 | Like you have no money, right?

00:15:11.920 | So you're finding that like a little diamond

00:15:14.200 | in the rough place to eat,

00:15:15.840 | the diner you talk about, like that place.

00:15:18.200 | I once was in, where was I?

00:15:20.880 | I think I was in Buenos Aires.

00:15:22.120 | And the guy that I was with, he said,

00:15:23.960 | "I know this quaint little spot around the corner."

00:15:26.960 | And I was young, I was like 25.

00:15:28.480 | And I thought the coolest thing in the world

00:15:31.080 | would be to be such a citizen of the world

00:15:34.000 | that you know these quaint little spots around the corner

00:15:36.840 | in like all these great cities.

00:15:38.280 | Like I know where to get this great chicken sandwich

00:15:40.740 | in Argentina.

00:15:41.580 | I know where to get this great meal in Costa Rica.

00:15:44.160 | I know where to get this super local like egg

00:15:47.160 | in another country.

00:15:48.440 | I always thought that that was really cool.

00:15:50.320 | The ability to do that anywhere in the world.

00:15:53.000 | - Did you get closer with that guy when through the trip?

00:15:55.920 | I found that like, so I took a trip

00:15:57.900 | across the United States with a guy friend of mine.

00:16:01.240 | We had different goals.

00:16:02.320 | I was searching for meaning in life

00:16:04.040 | and he was searching for,

00:16:05.580 | what's the politically correct way of phrasing it?

00:16:09.720 | But just basically trying to sleep

00:16:12.500 | with every kind of woman that this world has to offer.

00:16:15.380 | - What's the difference between those two things?

00:16:17.140 | - Well, I guess he was searching

00:16:18.420 | for the different kinds of meanings.

00:16:20.260 | (laughing)

00:16:21.300 | I mean, I still think that you can't find meaning

00:16:26.300 | between a woman's legs, I suppose.

00:16:28.540 | That made--

00:16:29.380 | - Have you tried all of them?

00:16:30.500 | (laughing)

00:16:31.740 | - But there was a tension there.

00:16:34.180 | We grew closer with those experiences

00:16:36.420 | but we've gotten in fights.

00:16:39.300 | There was a lot of literal almost fights

00:16:42.120 | and then we were close and there was silences

00:16:44.820 | but then we were like brothers.

00:16:46.260 | It's this whole weird journey of friendship

00:16:49.020 | that we went on.

00:16:49.940 | - I think anytime you spend that much time

00:16:52.860 | in a small space with another person,

00:16:55.740 | you're gonna have the different parts

00:16:57.620 | of the relationship will manifest themselves.

00:16:59.220 | You'll have the periods of closeness.

00:17:00.860 | You'll have the periods of vulnerability

00:17:02.360 | where it's like maybe you're driving through Denver

00:17:04.740 | and it's three in the morning

00:17:05.700 | and you talk about something

00:17:06.740 | you might not have otherwise talked about.

00:17:08.640 | You'll have the periods where you don't wanna see

00:17:10.260 | that motherfucker ever again.

00:17:11.820 | And depending, could be because of anything.

00:17:15.540 | But the guy that I drove twice with,

00:17:19.500 | we're still in contact, we're still buddies.

00:17:22.660 | We have very different goals also

00:17:27.060 | but at that point in our lives,

00:17:29.100 | we never even contemplated the meaning of life.

00:17:31.820 | We were about probably more to the point

00:17:34.660 | of the friend that you drove with,

00:17:35.980 | we were more about racking up experiences,

00:17:38.140 | whatever they were.

00:17:39.080 | I wanna be able to retell this.

00:17:41.880 | - Stories.

00:17:43.600 | - Yeah, I wanna be able to retell this

00:17:45.120 | and it's gotta sound cool.

00:17:46.480 | I don't wanna retell a story about,

00:17:49.080 | yeah, and then we drove through Alabama

00:17:50.480 | and they've got a lovely library

00:17:51.800 | and I checked out this book

00:17:53.000 | and I'm not interested in retelling that.

00:17:54.680 | - Do you remember any, well, this is a kid's show.

00:17:58.240 | Do you remember any stories that the kids would enjoy

00:18:01.160 | from those times that were profound in some kind of way?

00:18:05.440 | - There were some impactful moments

00:18:07.460 | on the beginning of our road trip where we had no money

00:18:11.220 | and as a couple of kids who knew nothing,

00:18:13.340 | we literally had to, we stopped in Vegas

00:18:15.580 | and we went to Circus Circus.

00:18:17.460 | At the time, they had $3 blackjack

00:18:19.300 | and we had like 12 bucks

00:18:20.740 | and my buddy was a kind of a degenerate gambler

00:18:22.540 | so he knew what was up.

00:18:23.460 | I was just like kind of stuffing chips in my pockets,

00:18:25.460 | making sure we could pay for the gas.

00:18:28.180 | And just being at the point which is like a starting line

00:18:31.300 | and like we drove from LA to Vegas

00:18:34.220 | which is only about four hours

00:18:36.040 | and being at the starting line

00:18:37.200 | and realizing like we may not even like

00:18:39.540 | get off the starting line here.

00:18:41.180 | And if we don't, what are we doing?

00:18:42.780 | We're gonna be two guys stuck in Vegas with no money.

00:18:44.900 | We can't go West 'cause you're gonna get pinched.

00:18:47.020 | We have no money to go East.

00:18:48.260 | What the hell are we gonna do?

00:18:49.100 | We're gonna wind up in Vegas?

00:18:50.540 | So that was kind of a profound thing where you just,

00:18:54.600 | it's a turning, it potentially could have been

00:18:57.680 | a turning point in our lives

00:18:59.300 | had we not made enough money to continue going East.

00:19:03.860 | - That's the beautiful thing about road trips

00:19:05.700 | when you're broke is like in retrospect,

00:19:09.020 | everything turned out fine

00:19:10.940 | but you're facing the complete darkness,

00:19:13.860 | the uncertainty of the possibilities laid before you.

00:19:16.740 | And like, I don't know if you were confident at that time

00:19:20.180 | but like I was really full of self-doubt.

00:19:23.940 | Like just all I could see is all the trajectories

00:19:27.260 | where you just screw up your life.

00:19:28.540 | Like what am I doing with my life?

00:19:29.820 | I'm a failure, like all these dreams I've had,

00:19:32.300 | I've never realized I'm a complete piece of shit,

00:19:34.660 | all those kinds of things.

00:19:35.500 | - I had no concept of consequence.

00:19:37.760 | I probably had toxoplasmosis.

00:19:42.100 | I had literally no concept of consequence.

00:19:45.100 | Immediate gratification was all I cared about.

00:19:47.340 | - Oh, so existentialist.

00:19:48.900 | - Yeah, it did not even enter my mind in my early 20s

00:19:53.900 | that anything that I was doing at that point

00:19:57.460 | could reverberate for the rest of my life.

00:19:59.700 | I think part of me didn't even think I'd make it this far.

00:20:02.380 | And so I was not interested in like the long play.

00:20:05.540 | I remember thinking like,

00:20:06.380 | why should I be acting now in a way

00:20:08.900 | that might impact a point in my life I never reach?

00:20:12.060 | - And yet now you are a man

00:20:15.060 | who searches for meaning in life, at least.

00:20:18.780 | I would say to put another way,

00:20:20.660 | you think deeply about this world

00:20:25.300 | and in a philosophical context

00:20:27.500 | while also appreciating the violence

00:20:30.500 | of hurting other friends of yours, right?

00:20:35.420 | On a regular basis.

00:20:36.420 | So why do you think, I mean,

00:20:38.980 | maybe there's a broader question there,

00:20:40.700 | but also a personal question.

00:20:42.500 | It seems that people who fight for prolonged periods of time

00:20:47.500 | like jiu-jitsu people and mixed martial arts people,

00:20:52.080 | even military folks, become over time philosophers.

00:20:57.420 | What is that?

00:20:58.260 | Is there a parallel between fighting and violence

00:21:02.180 | and the philosophical depth with which you now have arrived

00:21:05.140 | from the starting point of being the full existentialist

00:21:07.740 | of like just living in the moment

00:21:09.780 | to like being introspective human now?

00:21:14.780 | - I would say to that,

00:21:15.980 | being a soldier or a warrior hundreds of years ago

00:21:20.980 | is probably what started the marriage

00:21:24.820 | between martial arts and philosophy.

00:21:28.140 | If you're constantly under someone else's charge

00:21:31.060 | and you're told to go out and walk in a line

00:21:33.060 | and overtake some Germanic tribe somewhere,

00:21:36.820 | and that happens all the time,

00:21:38.740 | your job is being a soldier.

00:21:42.700 | On any given day, you might not come home.

00:21:46.580 | So I think that you have to start your day

00:21:48.280 | by thinking deeply about how you've lived to that point

00:21:52.300 | and the people that are living in and around you.

00:21:54.540 | And how you've treated them.

00:21:55.820 | And I think that probably is what started the marriage

00:21:58.180 | of being kind of like a philosophical martial artist.

00:22:02.220 | You've got to really like on a daily basis,

00:22:06.120 | take stock of what's going on around you and inside you.

00:22:09.980 | Because we all suffer with this kind of idea.

00:22:13.900 | If today's my last day, did I do it right?

00:22:16.460 | And we don't really do it so much nowadays

00:22:18.180 | because we're so comfortable.

00:22:19.900 | But if we were being marched out to war every day,

00:22:22.340 | I think you'd see people live a little bit differently.

00:22:25.100 | And you treat the people around you

00:22:28.060 | a little bit differently.

00:22:29.100 | - Do you think there's echoes of that

00:22:30.780 | in just even the sport of like grappling and jiu-jitsu

00:22:35.340 | where you're facing your own mortality?

00:22:37.220 | We don't really think of it that way, but.

00:22:39.660 | - To be honest, I think that a lot of people

00:22:41.580 | that train in a martial art in contemporary society,

00:22:45.540 | I don't consider them all martial artists.

00:22:48.060 | I think just because you train in martial art

00:22:49.980 | does not mean you're a martial artist.

00:22:51.460 | There are so many people that use martial arts

00:22:53.900 | as a form of exercise.

00:22:55.700 | And like this little piece of self-concept,

00:23:00.180 | they use martial arts as a tagline in their Instagram bio.

00:23:04.820 | And it's really a form of exercise.

00:23:06.640 | It's something they do, it's not something they are.

00:23:09.340 | And I think there's a big difference there.

00:23:11.700 | - There's a bunch of stuff mixed up in there

00:23:13.540 | because the Instagram thing is something you do for,

00:23:16.840 | it's also, it could be something you are for display

00:23:20.800 | versus who you are in the private moments

00:23:24.020 | of searching and thinking and struggling

00:23:26.540 | and all that kind of stuff.

00:23:27.420 | Instagram is a surface layer

00:23:29.700 | that much of modern society operates in,

00:23:33.980 | which is really problematic.

00:23:35.220 | 'Cause there's that gap between the person

00:23:39.100 | you show to the world and the person you are

00:23:41.420 | in private life.

00:23:42.460 | And if you make majority of your project,

00:23:45.660 | of the human project of your sort of few years

00:23:48.060 | on this earth, the optimization

00:23:50.520 | of the public Instagram profile,

00:23:53.160 | then you never develop this private person.

00:23:55.980 | But it does seem that if you do Jiu-Jitsu long enough,

00:23:58.240 | it's very difficult not to fall into like,

00:24:00.680 | this has become a personal journey,

00:24:04.920 | an intellectual journey.

00:24:06.400 | Because like, if you get your ass kicked thousands of times,

00:24:09.360 | there's a certain point to where that,

00:24:12.180 | maybe it's like a defense mechanism,

00:24:14.400 | but that turns into some kind of deeply profound

00:24:17.080 | introspective experience versus like exercise.

00:24:20.720 | - That's true. - Not yoga.

00:24:21.960 | - Yeah, so let me go back first

00:24:25.000 | and address the Instagram point,

00:24:26.360 | which I think there's a difference between people

00:24:28.880 | whose Instagram is intrinsically tied to their profession

00:24:33.640 | and they have to put a specific profile out there.

00:24:35.880 | And I think in general,

00:24:37.500 | people who truthfully, their business is tied

00:24:42.580 | to their Instagram profile, I wanna exclude them.

00:24:45.440 | I think that most people,

00:24:47.400 | Instagram is how they want to be seen.

00:24:50.160 | And that's not always congruent with who you are,

00:24:53.400 | but I think there is a level of dishonesty there.

00:24:58.400 | Like, this is how I want people to see me.

00:25:00.480 | I'm gonna put all this stuff in my Instagram bio,

00:25:02.320 | but that's really not me.

00:25:05.040 | And when you do that,

00:25:06.740 | I think it's a little disingenuous and you're right.

00:25:11.680 | There's not, you're never really gonna marry

00:25:13.800 | those two things together and it gets tough.

00:25:15.880 | - Let me, sorry to interrupt,

00:25:17.360 | let me push back on something.

00:25:18.760 | This is a good time to address the many flaws

00:25:23.120 | of the great and powerful John Clark.

00:25:25.640 | Okay, let's go there 'cause it's interesting.

00:25:30.400 | You strive so hard for excellence in your life

00:25:35.880 | and for extreme competence that you are visibly

00:25:40.740 | and physically off-put by people

00:25:43.140 | who have not achieved competence.

00:25:45.340 | Do you think we should be nicer to the people who are,

00:25:51.980 | those early, like you mentioned,

00:25:54.340 | a person who first picks up an art,

00:25:56.540 | picks up, becomes vegan, starts doing CrossFit,

00:26:00.340 | started doing Jiu-Jitsu for the first time

00:26:02.420 | and create that as their,

00:26:03.700 | you know, they're struggling through this,

00:26:05.900 | like, who am I?

00:26:07.160 | And they're really overly proud

00:26:09.420 | and it's kind of ridiculous.

00:26:11.020 | And you in your wise chair have seen many battles.

00:26:15.220 | - I'm old.

00:26:16.060 | - Yeah, that you see the ridiculousness of that.

00:26:19.820 | I tend to, I'm learning to give those folks,

00:26:24.820 | not to mock them and to sort of give them a chance

00:26:28.540 | to do their ridiculousness because I think I was that too.

00:26:32.420 | - Let me first clarify.

00:26:34.220 | I wanna be clear about what you mean

00:26:36.300 | when you say a level of competence.

00:26:38.340 | Now, I've never won a world championship.

00:26:41.300 | I've never, you know, there are plenty of things in my life

00:26:45.300 | where I've not achieved what most people would consider

00:26:50.180 | to be the penultimate level of success.

00:26:54.060 | Now--

00:26:54.900 | - That's accomplishments.

00:26:56.140 | - It's accomplishments, it's ribbons, it's things like that.

00:26:58.420 | And it's not that those things don't mean anything to me.

00:27:00.500 | And the fact that I haven't in some arenas

00:27:03.180 | is something that I wanna change,

00:27:06.620 | which is we can talk about that in a second.

00:27:09.260 | But I think that there's a difference

00:27:11.620 | between the very eager noob of whatever it is they're doing

00:27:16.620 | who does the thing so that they can signal they do the thing.

00:27:22.140 | That's a person I have less respect for.

00:27:26.780 | So we know each other primarily through jujitsu.

00:27:29.860 | Look at a jujitsu tournament.

00:27:32.820 | There's this idea that people espouse online.

00:27:37.260 | I respect anyone with the guts to get on the mat

00:27:40.660 | and put it on the line and sign up for a tournament.

00:27:43.260 | That is the biggest load of shit I have ever heard.

00:27:47.500 | - This is great.

00:27:48.340 | - Do you know how easy it is for you to put your name

00:27:51.780 | on something and pay the registration fee and walk in there?

00:27:54.340 | That's not the hard part.

00:27:55.540 | That's the easiest part.

00:27:57.420 | I don't care if you lose your first match,

00:27:58.940 | but I respect the person who signs up for the tournament,

00:28:02.420 | registers for the tournament, goes on a diet,

00:28:05.060 | loses weight the right way, trains their ass off,

00:28:07.740 | and does the things properly, and then goes on the mat.

00:28:10.740 | The person who simply signs their name

00:28:12.940 | on the registration form and jumps on the mat,

00:28:16.100 | if they haven't done these other things,

00:28:17.600 | they actually have nothing to lose.

00:28:19.680 | Because what they've done is they've stepped onto the mat,

00:28:21.920 | in the ring, in the cage, with a bucket full of excuses.

00:28:25.780 | Sure, you signed up, but you're not really vulnerable

00:28:29.700 | because you didn't run, you didn't do this,

00:28:31.820 | you didn't do all the things you were supposed to do.

00:28:33.660 | The person who eliminates every possible excuse

00:28:38.380 | and then steps on the mat and gets their ass kicked

00:28:41.060 | in the first round, I have so much more respect

00:28:43.700 | for that person than the person who does nothing

00:28:46.220 | and maybe on natural ability wins a couple of matches

00:28:48.820 | and then writes on Facebook on how I lost

00:28:52.300 | to the eventual champion.

00:28:54.060 | That's worth zero, that's worth zero.

00:28:56.380 | And in that process, what did you learn about yourself?

00:28:58.920 | You learned about yourself that you've got

00:29:01.020 | a natural level of aptitude for whatever this activity is

00:29:04.140 | that you're doing, but you didn't actually learn

00:29:06.660 | how to maximize it through training and through dedication

00:29:10.220 | and through all these other things.

00:29:12.500 | I'm an incredibly interested, novice musician.

00:29:17.500 | I like to play bass, but I don't put that on anything.

00:29:20.500 | And I stink at it.

00:29:22.340 | I would really love to be sick at it.

00:29:24.180 | I'm currently not, but I'm not running around,

00:29:28.760 | talking about entering, any of those other things.

00:29:31.260 | Like I do it, it's for myself and I wanna reach a level

00:29:35.840 | of competence in that.

00:29:37.260 | - So the person that you have respect for

00:29:40.660 | is a person who takes it fully seriously,

00:29:44.420 | takes the effort fully seriously.

00:29:47.380 | So for bass, that would be that you agree with yourself

00:29:50.580 | that you're going to perform live

00:29:51.940 | and just in your own private moments,

00:29:53.700 | your private thoughts, you're not going to give yourself

00:29:57.000 | an excuse out like, I'm just gonna have fun.

00:29:59.100 | It's just a nice experience.

00:30:00.380 | You're going to think, I'm going to try to be

00:30:03.340 | the best possible bass player,

00:30:05.020 | given everything that's going on in my life,

00:30:07.740 | but I'm going to do my, like,

00:30:09.740 | and put it all on the line.

00:30:11.900 | And if I fail, that's not because I didn't try.

00:30:16.620 | It's because I'm a failure.

00:30:18.300 | - Exactly.

00:30:19.140 | - And then sit in that sick feeling of like, I'm a failure.

00:30:24.860 | - But isn't that an important thing to know?

00:30:26.420 | - No, absolutely.

00:30:27.520 | But there's a,

00:30:28.680 | that's like the best thing we could be,

00:30:34.300 | but sometimes it's fun to lose yourself

00:30:36.580 | in the bragging, in the lesser ways of life.

00:30:41.580 | And I think I'm careful not to,

00:30:45.600 | because too many people in my life,

00:30:48.820 | when I brought them with like a little candle

00:30:51.900 | of a fire of a dream, they would just go like,

00:30:55.620 | you know, they would just blow that fire out,

00:30:58.900 | that they would dismiss me 'cause they see like,

00:31:01.940 | you know, I would say,

00:31:03.980 | I've said a lot of ridiculous stuff,

00:31:05.820 | but the one, you know, I've always dreamed about

00:31:09.020 | like putting,

00:31:09.860 | I always dreamed of having this world full of robots.

00:31:15.740 | And, you know, every time I would bring these ideas up,

00:31:20.300 | they'll be shut down by the different people,

00:31:21.980 | by my parents, by, you know,

00:31:24.860 | then you need to first get an education,

00:31:28.060 | you need to succeed in these dimensions.

00:31:30.860 | In order to do all these things,

00:31:32.100 | you have to get good grades, you have to,

00:31:33.780 | blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:31:34.700 | Like there's all this stuff that it's indirect

00:31:38.220 | or direct ways of blowing out that little ridiculous dream

00:31:41.740 | that you present.

00:31:43.220 | And it's like, you know, I remember sort of bringing up,

00:31:46.960 | I don't know,

00:31:49.100 | things like becoming a state champion in wrestling, right?

00:31:54.340 | - Yeah.

00:31:55.180 | It's a weird dance because of course the coaches will tell,

00:32:00.100 | they'll kind of dismiss that.

00:32:02.180 | It's like, okay, okay.

00:32:04.740 | But at the same time, it feels like in those early days,

00:32:07.660 | you have to preserve that little fire.

00:32:10.420 | That's like Johnny Ive, I don't know if you know who that is,

00:32:12.460 | is a designer at Apple.

00:32:13.860 | He was a chief designer.

00:32:14.780 | He's behind most iPhone, all that stuff.

00:32:17.620 | And he always talked about that he wouldn't bring his ideas

00:32:21.020 | to Steve Jobs until they were matured

00:32:23.300 | because he would always shit on them.

00:32:25.500 | He wanted them to like as little babies,

00:32:28.780 | like live for a little bit

00:32:30.060 | before they get completely shut down.

00:32:31.940 | And I always think about that when I see a beginner

00:32:33.860 | sort of bragging on Instagram, you have to be careful.

00:32:37.220 | Let them play with that little dream, you know?

00:32:40.980 | - Are you playing with a little dream that you're nurturing

00:32:43.420 | and you're trying to take that little flame

00:32:44.980 | and you're trying to create a roaring blaze with it?

00:32:48.300 | Or are you playing with the idea of it

00:32:50.700 | and behind that there's no substance?

00:32:54.140 | - Well, it's hard to know the difference.

00:32:55.220 | That's what I struggle with.

00:32:56.220 | - Is it?

00:32:57.060 | I don't think it necessarily is.

00:32:58.060 | Certainly you're wrong.

00:32:59.180 | And when I say Instagram,

00:33:01.460 | I don't wanna impugn a bunch of strangers,

00:33:03.900 | but I have a gym with a lot of members.

00:33:05.580 | And I can tell you that the number of years

00:33:07.700 | I've been in the gym,

00:33:08.740 | when someone comes to me and says, "This is my goal,"

00:33:11.060 | I don't tell them yes or no in general, but I know.

00:33:15.240 | I can tell by the way they say it to me,

00:33:17.340 | I can thin slice it.

00:33:18.700 | I've seen the look on people's faces

00:33:20.620 | and when people start to say they wanna do X, Y, and Z,

00:33:24.420 | I know right off the bat,

00:33:26.180 | this person's either gonna put an effort in

00:33:27.740 | or they're not going to put an effort in.

00:33:29.620 | So to me, it's about the effort behind that.

00:33:33.660 | If you're busting your ass

00:33:34.900 | and you're a new at something and you're brand new,

00:33:37.260 | but you're working really hard

00:33:38.540 | and you have a series of moderate successes in that,

00:33:42.740 | that's the guy I wanna champion

00:33:44.340 | because that persistence and that grit over time,

00:33:47.320 | those successes will no longer be moderate.

00:33:49.780 | They'll be huge.

00:33:51.060 | But the person who's having moderate success

00:33:52.780 | by doing nothing, chances are,

00:33:54.860 | they'll never learn to put that work in

00:33:56.540 | and the successes will never grow.

00:33:58.940 | - You have an admiration for Mike Tyson.

00:34:01.580 | - I love him.

00:34:02.420 | - I was just gonna let that sit for a brief moment.

00:34:06.200 | Why?

00:34:09.260 | - I think there's a combination of factors.

00:34:10.680 | One is the timeliness of his career

00:34:13.380 | and the age I was when he came to prominence.

00:34:18.920 | The raw, brutal violence

00:34:23.020 | and the raw, brutal honesty when he speaks.

00:34:26.560 | I think it's easy for people to hear him or see his life

00:34:29.740 | and cast him aside as some Simeon-esque,

00:34:33.140 | like just Cretan scourge on society.

00:34:36.180 | But when you hear him speak,

00:34:37.660 | like this is not a guy who's unintelligent.

00:34:40.200 | This is a guy who knows himself better

00:34:42.300 | than probably most of us know ourselves.

00:34:44.660 | It's disarming.

00:34:46.180 | And that's a humongous part of my admiration for him.

00:34:51.180 | - Who is Mike Tyson?

00:34:54.060 | Because it feels like there's similarity between him and you.

00:34:58.060 | It feels like there's a violent person in there,

00:35:02.940 | but also a really kind person.

00:35:04.820 | And they're all living together in a little house

00:35:07.860 | and you're the same.

00:35:08.820 | There's a thoughtful person,

00:35:10.460 | but there's also a scary, violent person.

00:35:12.660 | And they're having a picnic.

00:35:14.620 | - They're having a picnic.

00:35:16.120 | I think there are dialectical tensions in everyone.

00:35:18.820 | These like opposing forces

00:35:21.220 | that are constantly pulling at you.

00:35:22.940 | And at different points in your life,

00:35:24.620 | like it's sliding scale.

00:35:26.420 | And I think that certainly when I was a younger person,

00:35:31.420 | there was a lot more manifestation of the violence

00:35:35.140 | and a lot less of the kindness.

00:35:37.380 | People who were not as close to me

00:35:40.560 | probably saw more of the violent side

00:35:42.300 | and only the very close people to me saw like

00:35:44.720 | what would pass for the kind side.

00:35:46.660 | And now that's sliding in the other direction.

00:35:49.180 | And I worry actually sometimes that

00:35:52.220 | there could be a situation where I need

00:35:55.180 | that old version of me

00:35:57.300 | and he's getting further and further away

00:35:59.300 | and I can't call him up if I need him.

00:36:01.860 | And that concerns me to a certain degree.

00:36:05.660 | - The sad aging warrior seeing his greater self fade away.

00:36:12.180 | But you still compete.

00:36:13.820 | Does that person return?

00:36:15.200 | It seems like for Mike Tyson,

00:36:16.440 | that person returned at the prospect of competition.

00:36:20.040 | - It returns, but I've learned better

00:36:23.400 | how to manifest it in competition

00:36:26.040 | in terms of like the effects that that type of emotion

00:36:28.780 | has on you physically in the middle of a competition.

00:36:31.240 | So I've better learned how to utilize that energy.

00:36:34.440 | But I think another side effect of this is like

00:36:37.320 | having a gym where you're a bigger guy

00:36:39.480 | and you're the head instructor,

00:36:40.960 | you can't be as mean and violent as you once were

00:36:43.900 | because you're also now trying to run a business.

00:36:46.420 | And you spend so long, so many years

00:36:50.000 | trying not to be mean and to soften

00:36:52.600 | your technique a little bit,

00:36:54.560 | that that all of a sudden just becomes who you are.

00:36:56.680 | And I don't necessarily like that.

00:36:58.520 | So I've been trying to reclaim that a little bit on the mat.

00:37:01.820 | But I think in competition,

00:37:08.720 | there has to be, an athlete really wants to score the points.

00:37:13.720 | A fighter really wants to incapacitate you

00:37:18.560 | and put you in a position where they can do their own bidding

00:37:21.600 | and the result in a jujitsu match

00:37:23.680 | might just still be two points,

00:37:25.580 | but the motivations are very, very different.

00:37:28.360 | - What do you make of Tyson on Joe Rogan

00:37:30.520 | saying that he was aroused by violence?

00:37:32.600 | Do you think that's insane?

00:37:34.160 | Do you think that's deeply honest for him?

00:37:36.760 | And do you think that rings true for many of us,

00:37:40.320 | others who practices in different degrees?

00:37:42.640 | - I can't speak for a lot of people.

00:37:45.840 | And I think that it was a brutally honest statement by him.

00:37:48.880 | And I think it's something that

00:37:50.200 | even if a lot of people feel it,

00:37:52.440 | they're not that comfortable admitting it or saying it.

00:37:55.600 | But I think there's great joy

00:38:00.600 | in landing a flush right hand on someone's jaw

00:38:05.800 | and then watching them crumble.

00:38:07.320 | You don't even feel it.

00:38:08.480 | You ever play baseball as a kid?

00:38:10.240 | You can hit a base hit off the end of the bat

00:38:11.960 | and it will sting your hands

00:38:13.360 | because of the way that you hit it.

00:38:15.120 | You can hit a home run and you won't feel anything

00:38:18.320 | and it'll just feel so good in your hands.

00:38:19.840 | And that's, I think, one of the joys of physical contact.

00:38:24.840 | When you do it the right way,

00:38:27.040 | and that goes for all physical contact,

00:38:29.160 | when you do it the right way,

00:38:30.960 | the physical pleasure you can derive from it

00:38:33.600 | and the mental pleasure, it's unparalleled.

00:38:38.360 | - But that's different.

00:38:39.440 | Let me draw a distinction.

00:38:41.000 | I've had the fortune of being a wrestler.

00:38:47.600 | And I would draw a distinction between

00:38:51.380 | a very well executed in competition

00:38:54.680 | double leg, single leg takedown or a pin.

00:38:58.000 | There's some, as an OCD person,

00:38:59.620 | there's something so comforting about a well executed pin

00:39:03.560 | because it's like two seconds

00:39:05.080 | and it's just like everything is flush and nice

00:39:07.640 | and it's all clean.

00:39:09.400 | I mean, okay, as this OCD person who likes to align,

00:39:12.480 | show it's just beautiful.

00:39:14.380 | Okay, that's good technique.

00:39:16.140 | Wrestling also provides you,

00:39:19.460 | maybe more than other sports,

00:39:22.600 | the feeling of dominating another human.

00:39:25.720 | - Yes.

00:39:26.560 | - Of breaking, no, not just of them being very cocky

00:39:30.760 | and very powerful, you feel this power of another human

00:39:34.280 | being and then you breaking them.

00:39:37.460 | And like, I'm not as honest as Mike Tyson.

00:39:42.460 | But that's, I don't think I've ever sort of looked

00:39:47.720 | in the mirror and said that that was,

00:39:51.040 | I enjoyed that aspect of it.

00:39:53.100 | But it certainly seems like you chase that.

00:39:56.400 | - So when I was a wrestler in high school,

00:40:00.120 | I lost so many matches because of over aggressiveness.

00:40:04.100 | Like, I would pick the top position and let you stand

00:40:08.400 | just so that I could do a mat return.

00:40:10.160 | And I wasn't trying to return you to the mat.

00:40:12.200 | I was actually trying to like drive you through the mat

00:40:15.380 | and through the ground.

00:40:16.480 | It gave me joy to do that.

00:40:20.640 | Like, it wasn't like I was trying to just return you

00:40:23.920 | to the mat so that I could pin you.

00:40:25.640 | That what you just talked about,

00:40:26.920 | like the dominating another person,

00:40:28.900 | I used to look at that as you've got someone who in theory

00:40:31.520 | is equally trained and equally skilled as you are.

00:40:34.120 | And you're absolutely out there totally dominating them.

00:40:37.500 | There's joy in that.

00:40:39.920 | You could get in an MMA fight and you could take someone

00:40:43.040 | down and you can mount them.

00:40:44.960 | And all that feels great.

00:40:47.160 | But when you start raining down the punches on their face

00:40:49.960 | from mount and like dropping elbows and stuff,

00:40:52.000 | like there's another level of satisfaction there.

00:40:55.080 | And it's tough to describe.

00:40:57.460 | And I don't think that everyone is made for it.

00:41:01.320 | When I was a, I think when I was a senior in high school,

00:41:03.940 | my wrestling coach said, look, you've got to stop

00:41:06.480 | with all this crazy aggressive wrestling.

00:41:09.160 | Like they tried to turn me into a technician

00:41:12.080 | and it did work to a degree.

00:41:15.240 | And it was a humongous shift for me in terms of success.

00:41:18.800 | But it wasn't the same level of enjoyment out of it.

00:41:22.420 | Like, I mean, I got disqualified from New England

00:41:25.920 | 'cause my coach said cross face and I cross face

00:41:28.100 | and he said harder.

00:41:29.060 | And I basically wound up and blasted a kid in the face

00:41:31.420 | and his nose got busted everywhere.

00:41:33.780 | But I didn't think not to do it because that felt good.

00:41:37.380 | It felt good to cross face him like that.

00:41:39.540 | I was a lot of like.

00:41:41.340 | - That's a weird American warrior ethos that I've picked up.

00:41:46.540 | But I also have, I mean, the Russian, the Sitya brothers

00:41:49.900 | that don't see it as that.

00:41:53.700 | They don't get draw.

00:41:55.300 | They think that there is a tension between the art

00:42:00.520 | of the martial art and the violence of the martial art.

00:42:04.480 | - I agree with that.

00:42:05.320 | - It's a poetic way I could put it,

00:42:06.880 | but they're not so fascinated with this Dan Gable

00:42:10.240 | dominating another human.

00:42:12.080 | They think of the effortlessness of the technique

00:42:17.080 | and your mastery of the art is exhibited

00:42:20.640 | in its effortlessness.

00:42:22.400 | How much you lose yourself in the moment and the timing

00:42:25.100 | that just the beauty of a timing.

00:42:27.260 | Like there's much more, like one example in Judo,

00:42:30.540 | but also in wrestling, you can look at the foot sweep.

00:42:33.980 | Wrestlers in America and even Judo players in America

00:42:38.340 | and much of the world don't admire the beauty

00:42:40.900 | of the foot sweep.

00:42:42.400 | But a well-timed foot sweep, which is a way to sort of

00:42:45.100 | off balance to find the right timing to just effortlessly

00:42:50.300 | change the tape, turn the tables of,

00:42:54.040 | dominate your opponent is seen as the highest form

00:42:58.520 | of mastery in Russian wrestling and in the case of Judo,

00:43:02.280 | it's in Japanese Judo.

00:43:04.320 | It's interesting.

00:43:05.200 | I'm not sure what that tension is about.

00:43:08.620 | I think it actually takes me back to,

00:43:11.060 | I don't know if you listen to Dan Carlin,

00:43:13.720 | Hardcore History and Genghis Khan, if you've ever--

00:43:17.800 | - I read a great, great book.

00:43:19.680 | - On Genghis Khan? - Yeah.

00:43:21.660 | - I'm still trying to adjust.

00:43:23.220 | Most of my life said Genghis Khan,

00:43:25.420 | but the right pronunciation is actually Changus Khan.

00:43:29.500 | There's a tension there.

00:43:32.920 | We kind of think, I don't know, we, I kind of thought

00:43:36.900 | as Genghis Khan is a ultra violent,

00:43:40.280 | a leader of ultra violent men, but another view,

00:43:45.940 | another way to see them is the people who,

00:43:50.640 | warriors that valued extreme competence

00:43:55.640 | and mastery of the art of fighting with weapons,

00:44:00.320 | with bows, with horse riding, all that kind of stuff.

00:44:03.520 | And I'm not sure exactly where to place them

00:44:07.440 | on my sort of thinking about violence in our human history.

00:44:12.760 | I think in the context of like combat sports,

00:44:16.820 | I think there's a difference between an athlete

00:44:19.020 | winning a contest under a certain set of rules

00:44:22.220 | and a fighter winning a fight under those exact same rules.

00:44:26.260 | There's a different approach to it.

00:44:28.340 | And I don't think one is any better than the other.

00:44:30.980 | Like in MMA, I think a great example would be

00:44:34.360 | George St. Pierre.

00:44:36.960 | George St. Pierre is a tremendous,

00:44:38.700 | it's a tremendous athlete and he considers himself

00:44:41.500 | to be a martial artist first.

00:44:43.420 | He's trying to win an athletic competition.

00:44:45.940 | Like Nick Diaz is trying to bust your ass, right?

00:44:49.500 | There's a different approach to it.

00:44:51.300 | And yes, they've had different results

00:44:53.140 | at the highest level of competition,

00:44:55.320 | but it's difficult to attribute the difference in results

00:44:58.960 | just to their approach to the sport

00:45:00.460 | because they're different human beings

00:45:01.620 | with different abilities

00:45:02.460 | and different physical attributes.

00:45:05.020 | The Saitia brothers have that luxury of being able

00:45:09.580 | to talk about the beauty of a perfectly timed slide by.

00:45:14.300 | There are other wrestlers

00:45:15.140 | that will never be able to pull that off

00:45:16.980 | and therefore they have to pursue other ways

00:45:19.860 | to defeat someone.

00:45:20.940 | And maybe it is the Dan Gable,

00:45:22.740 | breaking a man's spirit by outworking him type thing,

00:45:25.340 | which is beautiful in its own way.

00:45:27.440 | But we tend to self-select the ways

00:45:32.860 | in which we're able to be successful

00:45:34.940 | and then kind of take a deep dive into that.

00:45:37.420 | - What do you think is more beautiful,

00:45:39.700 | brute force or effortless execution

00:45:44.700 | of a technique that dominates another human?

00:45:49.540 | - I think it's a subjective thing

00:45:52.140 | based on what skills you perceive yourself to have.

00:45:55.340 | I've never been a slick, super athletic,

00:45:59.700 | dexterous competitor in anything.

00:46:02.380 | And I've always been more of an,

00:46:04.300 | I've got to outwork you, I've got to outgrind you,

00:46:06.060 | I got to out mean you.

00:46:07.380 | And so because I've lived that,

00:46:09.500 | I tend to see the beauty in that more

00:46:11.520 | because I have a perceptual awareness

00:46:13.700 | that I don't have for the people

00:46:15.520 | who have the luxury of being very slick and athletic

00:46:18.120 | and using beautiful technique.

00:46:20.740 | Now that said, there was a phenomenal little video

00:46:23.780 | the other day I sent to a friend

00:46:26.420 | of a compilation of foot sweeps by Liotta Machida in MMA.

00:46:31.420 | And they're so beautiful and they're so awesome.

00:46:34.780 | And it's not that I don't have an appreciation for those,

00:46:38.020 | but I can't emulate those

00:46:39.220 | because I lack the physical ability to do that.

00:46:42.540 | Whereas I at least have a chance to emulate

00:46:46.300 | some of the people who do it through grit

00:46:48.780 | and through outworking people.

00:46:51.060 | - But I would love to return to Genghis Khan

00:46:54.420 | and get your thoughts about,

00:46:56.660 | like I have so many mixed feelings

00:46:59.420 | about whether he is evil or not.

00:47:04.980 | Whether the violence that he brought to the world

00:47:09.980 | had ultimately, the fact that it had maybe

00:47:13.300 | kind of like Dan Carlin describes,

00:47:17.340 | cleansed the landscape.

00:47:19.780 | It's like a reset for the world through violence

00:47:22.660 | had ultimately a progressive effect on human civilization

00:47:27.660 | even though in the short term it led to massive,

00:47:34.200 | you could say suffering.

00:47:36.620 | I don't know what to make of that man.

00:47:38.860 | What are your thoughts on Genghis Khan?

00:47:41.100 | - I think it's always difficult to look at a historical

00:47:44.020 | figure and their actions of their time

00:47:46.900 | through a modern day lens.

00:47:48.580 | Because it's easy for us to kind of impugn their achievements

00:47:53.580 | and the things that they did and say,

00:47:57.740 | oh, well, what he did was wrong.

00:48:01.060 | Well, of course that can be true.

00:48:03.180 | But a lot of times we don't actually have any real good

00:48:05.780 | context or concept of the times they were living in

00:48:09.920 | and what really was deemed wrong and what really wasn't.

00:48:12.300 | We're looking at it through a very cushy modern lens.

00:48:14.540 | That being said, from what I've read about Genghis Khan,

00:48:18.940 | yeah, he was a violent dude, but also he gave you an option.

00:48:21.940 | When he got to a village, he said, look,

00:48:25.220 | you have a choice.

00:48:29.660 | You can come with us or you can run.

00:48:32.100 | And he gave them an option to join his legion of fighters

00:48:36.900 | who he took very good care of.

00:48:38.500 | He was the first military leader to pay his soldiers'

00:48:43.500 | families when they died.

00:48:46.020 | And he did that based on the booty that they got

00:48:49.140 | when they raided a village.

00:48:51.260 | He took that money, he took his share,

00:48:52.940 | and they divided that up amongst the soldiers

00:48:54.540 | and then the soldiers' families.

00:48:55.980 | I think he also is credited with first horseback mail

00:49:01.900 | routes or something like that, right?

00:49:03.620 | Isn't he the godfather of the modern postal system?

00:49:06.580 | Or something like that.

00:49:07.980 | - Yeah, he's the Bernie Sanders of the Mongol Empire.

00:49:12.980 | I do think the offering of surrender is an interesting one

00:49:18.860 | 'cause it's interesting as a thought experiment

00:49:23.860 | whether you would sacrifice your way of,

00:49:26.660 | like the pride of nations or the nationalism,

00:49:29.260 | pride of your country, whether you're willing

00:49:31.500 | to give that up to survive.

00:49:33.860 | - It depends on who depends on you.

00:49:41.180 | If you have a family and young kids and stuff like that,

00:49:45.100 | I think your obligation is primarily to them.

00:49:48.220 | And therefore, surrender has to be something

00:49:50.140 | that you consider in that moment in time

00:49:52.980 | so that you can take care of those people.

00:49:55.500 | If you're a man alone and you've got all these principles

00:49:57.720 | and all this other stuff and you're not down

00:50:00.260 | with what Genghis Khan is doing and what he's selling,

00:50:02.660 | yeah, try and escape, do your thing,

00:50:04.340 | and just know what waits on the other side

00:50:06.700 | of that for you potentially.

00:50:08.100 | But I think if there's someone else out there

00:50:09.980 | that depends on you, your obligation should be to them.

00:50:13.140 | - It feels like historically,

00:50:15.620 | people valued principles more than life.

00:50:19.160 | In this weight of what do I value more,

00:50:23.820 | the principles I hold versus survival,

00:50:26.540 | it seems that now we don't value principles as much.

00:50:30.300 | Principles could be also religion,

00:50:31.760 | it could be your values, whatever.

00:50:33.720 | We're okay sort of sacrificing those

00:50:36.020 | to preserve our survival.

00:50:38.660 | And that applies in all forms, like actual survival,

00:50:42.020 | or on social media, like preserving your reputation,

00:50:46.920 | all those kinds of things.

00:50:48.480 | It seems like we, especially in America,

00:50:52.700 | value individual life,

00:50:57.260 | that death is somehow a really bad thing,

00:51:00.580 | as opposed to saying sacrificing your principles

00:51:04.140 | is a very bad thing and everybody dies,

00:51:06.820 | and it's okay to die.

00:51:08.860 | What's horrible is to sacrifice your principles

00:51:12.160 | of who you are just to live another day.

00:51:15.920 | - I think a big problem is people don't really

00:51:17.620 | even know what their principles are anymore.

00:51:22.540 | Social media and just the way that we live nowadays,

00:51:26.100 | where we're separated from the human contact like this.

00:51:29.460 | You're not contacting people in a community anymore.

00:51:33.580 | Whether you're religious or not,

00:51:36.260 | you're not congregating at a church.

00:51:37.820 | You're not part of a parish like you would be down South.

00:51:41.180 | You're not part of that community anymore.

00:51:44.100 | And so it's difficult to figure out

00:51:48.460 | what your principles and values are,

00:51:50.380 | because you're constantly jumping from one bucket

00:51:52.580 | to the next online.

00:51:55.380 | And you don't get a lot of direct,

00:51:58.180 | like reasonable feedback from people.

00:52:01.180 | You just get dipshit feedback,

00:52:02.660 | like, "Oh, you don't believe this?

00:52:03.860 | "Well, you're a jerk."

00:52:04.980 | - I think the hard thing currently

00:52:07.700 | is having the integrity and character

00:52:09.420 | to stick by your principles one another.

00:52:11.420 | I don't wanna equate murder in the Genghis Khan times

00:52:15.740 | to social media cancel culture,

00:52:19.040 | but it certainly doesn't feel good

00:52:20.780 | when people are attacking on social media.

00:52:22.820 | And it does take a lot of integrity to,

00:52:25.680 | without anger, without emotion,

00:52:29.060 | without mocking others or attacking others unfairly,

00:52:34.700 | standing by the ideas you hold,

00:52:38.940 | or in another way,

00:52:40.920 | standing by your friends,

00:52:45.180 | standing by this little group,

00:52:47.180 | like loyalty of the people that you know are good people.

00:52:51.740 | I find that in cancel culture,

00:52:54.180 | one of the sad things is whenever somebody gets,

00:52:57.080 | quote unquote, "canceled,"

00:52:59.220 | everybody just gets, all their friends become really quiet

00:53:02.640 | and don't defend them.

00:53:04.100 | Or worse, I mean, quiet is at least understandable.

00:53:08.920 | They kind of signal that,

00:53:11.640 | they throw 'em out of the bus, I guess,

00:53:13.940 | is one way to put it.

00:53:14.900 | And that's something I think about a lot,

00:53:18.340 | because coming from me, it's like,

00:53:20.520 | I hold an ethic, I don't know if others hold this ethic,

00:53:25.480 | maybe it's this Russian mobster ethic of,

00:53:29.280 | you should help your friends bury the body.

00:53:34.440 | You shouldn't criticize your friends

00:53:36.020 | for committing the murder.

00:53:37.560 | Like there are certain levels of,

00:53:39.220 | yeah, you have that discussion after you bury the body,

00:53:43.880 | that maybe you shouldn't have done that murder thing.

00:53:47.360 | I don't know, I understand that that's a problematic,

00:53:50.860 | what's the terminology?

00:53:54.320 | That's a problematic ethical framework

00:53:57.120 | within which to operate, but at the same time,

00:53:59.400 | it feels like what else do we have in this world

00:54:01.480 | except the brotherhood, the sisterhood,

00:54:04.240 | the love we have for a very small community?

00:54:06.600 | But perhaps that's the wrong way of thinking.

00:54:08.200 | Perhaps the 21st century would be defined

00:54:11.240 | by the dissipation of this community,

00:54:13.200 | of this loyalty concept.

00:54:14.880 | - No. - We're all just individuals.

00:54:16.560 | - I think you're right, and I think you have to have

00:54:18.560 | some sort of core framework of principles and beliefs

00:54:21.640 | that you operate on.

00:54:22.840 | And I think what I was referencing

00:54:25.280 | is a little bit different, but to speak to your point,

00:54:28.960 | you need a framework of core principles

00:54:33.960 | on which you can then base a lot of your other decisions.

00:54:38.440 | Like I believe these three things to be true,

00:54:40.520 | whatever they are, and that will help inform

00:54:42.720 | other decisions you make in your life.

00:54:44.640 | As far as how you treat your friends,

00:54:49.000 | I've got probably three friends that,

00:54:52.600 | if they called me right now and said,

00:54:53.840 | "Let's bury the body," sorry, Lex, I gotta go.

00:54:56.520 | There are other people in my life that if they said,

00:55:00.640 | "Hey, we've gotta go bury the body,"

00:55:02.440 | I would say, "Who is this?"

00:55:03.880 | (Lex laughs)

00:55:05.720 | You know? - Yeah.

00:55:06.760 | - So I think it depends on the relationship.

00:55:10.040 | - That's a really good measure.

00:55:12.200 | I would love that to be in your profile.

00:55:16.000 | People put pronouns.

00:55:17.640 | I would love to put honestly, objectively,

00:55:22.240 | not self-report, but objective,

00:55:24.840 | how many people in your life, if they committed murder,

00:55:28.400 | you would not ask any questions

00:55:29.860 | and you would help them hide the body.

00:55:32.120 | I would love to know that number for people.

00:55:33.980 | - Yeah, and I think it's a weird thing too

00:55:35.920 | because you think right away,

00:55:37.200 | okay, it must be the group of people

00:55:38.920 | that are the closest to you.

00:55:39.960 | That's who you're first thinking of, right?

00:55:41.900 | But obviously for my best friend,

00:55:44.160 | I would do it, no question about it.

00:55:45.840 | But I've got other people that are close to me

00:55:47.680 | that are close to me in other ways,

00:55:50.640 | and I probably wouldn't do that

00:55:51.920 | only because I don't think they'd do it for me.

00:55:54.260 | - Yeah.

00:55:55.100 | - And that is a consideration.

00:55:57.680 | So I guess is the principle there

00:55:59.920 | then that you do for your friends

00:56:02.060 | what you think they would do for you?

00:56:03.440 | Is that the underlying principle?

00:56:05.280 | Or do you just have a blind loyalty

00:56:06.920 | to people in your life for different reasons?

00:56:10.560 | I got people that are not on my inner circle

00:56:12.720 | that I probably wouldn't help change a tire

00:56:15.800 | to in the morning if they were on the highway,

00:56:17.380 | but if they called me and said,

00:56:18.280 | "Hey, we gotta bury the body,"

00:56:19.720 | I might show up for that.

00:56:20.560 | It's just these weird different connections you have.

00:56:22.480 | - Yeah, it's fascinating.

00:56:23.400 | Yeah, I have close friends that I'd probably be,

00:56:26.840 | exactly, the tire's a good example.

00:56:28.440 | I'd be like, "Can't you find somebody else to do this?"

00:56:30.440 | - Right.

00:56:31.480 | - I think part of that is just this leap of faith,

00:56:36.640 | like giving yourself to the other person

00:56:39.920 | that creates a deep connection

00:56:43.880 | that makes life fulfilling, meaningful,

00:56:48.880 | that doesn't exist if you don't take that leap.

00:56:51.640 | I mean, it's not about the murder.

00:56:52.840 | We're sort of focusing.

00:56:53.920 | I think you have to, what is it,

00:56:57.840 | cross that bridge when you get there.

00:56:59.040 | I'm not exactly sure.

00:57:00.080 | Is this just a thought experiment?

00:57:01.840 | But I think about that a lot,

00:57:05.160 | especially these COVID times

00:57:06.720 | and as people become more and more isolated

00:57:09.400 | and separated from each other.

00:57:11.280 | How important is it to have those deep connections

00:57:14.800 | to other humans?

00:57:16.400 | - I think especially what you're talking about there.

00:57:18.520 | Have you ever seen the movie "The Town"?

00:57:20.200 | There's a great line in the movie

00:57:21.500 | where one of the main characters

00:57:23.440 | walks into his friend's house and he says,

00:57:26.340 | "I need your help.

00:57:27.400 | "We're gonna go hurt some people

00:57:29.780 | "and you can never ask me about it again."

00:57:31.920 | And the friend looks up and he says,

00:57:33.280 | "Whose car are we taking?"

00:57:35.640 | Like that is the type of person you need in your life.

00:57:38.200 | And the people, like there are people

00:57:40.160 | that will walk through that door and say that to you

00:57:42.000 | and you drop everything you're doing.

00:57:43.360 | And then there's the people that walk through your door

00:57:44.680 | and you're like, "You know what?

00:57:45.600 | "I got a Hot Pocket in the microwave.

00:57:47.400 | "I'm a little bit tied up right now,

00:57:50.800 | "but I'd love to help you out, but I don't wanna do that."

00:57:54.520 | And you don't have that deep connection with those people.

00:57:57.240 | - You mentioned some principles

00:57:59.000 | that you've changed your mind on.

00:58:02.320 | Do you wanna go there?

00:58:04.760 | Is there some interesting principles

00:58:07.640 | and the process of changing that is useful to talk about?

00:58:11.960 | - I can't really cite a specific thing

00:58:14.440 | except that understanding that the principles

00:58:18.720 | that you have at different points in your life can change

00:58:21.440 | and it's okay to change them without being a total pussy

00:58:23.640 | and being bullied by other people

00:58:25.160 | into thinking what you thought was wrong.

00:58:27.280 | If you come to these conclusions of your own volition

00:58:30.440 | and you decide to change them, that's great.

00:58:32.240 | And it can be really liberating.

00:58:36.360 | It's really liberating to have an idea

00:58:38.160 | that you hold so true to your core belief system

00:58:43.160 | and then to actually have someone change your mind for you

00:58:48.040 | and be okay with it, as opposed to being like,

00:58:50.520 | "No, I gotta die with this.

00:58:52.480 | "I gotta die with this."

00:58:53.400 | It's really liberating.

00:58:54.240 | There are definitely ideas you wanna die on that hill

00:58:56.080 | and no one's ever gonna change your mind,

00:58:58.400 | but it's really liberating to be confident enough

00:59:02.160 | to say, "Change my mind."

00:59:03.960 | I'm lucky enough to have some smart motherfuckers around me

00:59:06.400 | who can tell me, "Listen, you're being a total dipshit.

00:59:10.000 | "Like, let's rethink this."

00:59:12.400 | Or like I have one friend who does the five whys all the time

00:59:15.440 | and he loves backing me into a corner.

00:59:17.320 | - What's the five whys?

00:59:19.040 | - You just, like when someone makes a statement

00:59:20.920 | about something, to really get to the core issue,

00:59:24.080 | they say if you ask why five times,

00:59:27.080 | make a statement, "Well, why is that?"

00:59:29.120 | And you answer that, "Well, why?"

00:59:30.800 | And you phrase the whys differently, obviously,

00:59:32.680 | but then you get to the core.

00:59:33.840 | They say five times you can get to the core of the issue

00:59:36.640 | and that's a challenging thing.

00:59:38.240 | But I find later in life, it's so liberating for me

00:59:41.440 | to be confident enough to be like,

00:59:43.440 | "Man, was I fucking way off the mark on this

00:59:46.760 | "and have my mind changed."

00:59:48.120 | - And be able to say that to others that I was wrong.

00:59:50.840 | - Totally.

00:59:51.680 | That ability, and I never used to have that,

00:59:55.000 | and it feels real good.

00:59:58.360 | - And there's a hunger for that, too.

01:00:00.960 | - Yeah, you're so right, actually.

01:00:02.560 | On a personal level, it feels very good.

01:00:05.240 | Exactly as you said, it's liberating

01:00:07.440 | because you're free to then think as opposed to--

01:00:10.920 | - Defend.

01:00:11.760 | - Yeah, without thinking.

01:00:14.040 | - Yeah, you get so sick of defending the same thing

01:00:16.640 | over and over and over, and you start to think about it

01:00:19.680 | and it's like, "Well, I would really like

01:00:23.480 | "to evolve my thought process here."

01:00:25.440 | And when you're constantly defending one point,

01:00:29.080 | it's difficult to let other ideas in.

01:00:31.400 | You discount the possibility

01:00:34.720 | that you can have your mind changed

01:00:35.960 | when you're constantly on the defense.

01:00:37.760 | You have to have a crack in the front line

01:00:40.040 | in order to let a new idea come in and possibly flourish.

01:00:43.400 | And maybe the new idea doesn't even prove

01:00:46.320 | your current belief system to be wrong,

01:00:48.360 | but maybe it's like the water to a seed,

01:00:51.160 | and it grows, and now it's something even bigger and better.

01:00:54.200 | And you can start to work with that instead.

01:00:57.080 | And it's a tough thing 'cause I'm a stubborn fuck,

01:00:59.800 | and it's very difficult for me, it was historically,

01:01:03.160 | to say, "I was wrong about this one,"

01:01:05.080 | or, "I messed this one up,"

01:01:06.440 | or, "Nah, I wish I could have that one back."

01:01:09.680 | - There's a public figure for me thing too,

01:01:11.840 | which there's a difference between changing your mind

01:01:16.160 | with a small circle of friends

01:01:17.680 | and changing your mind publicly about something,

01:01:20.720 | but it has equal, one echoes the other.

01:01:23.920 | It is equally liberating, but people,

01:01:26.980 | people will not make that change easy,

01:01:31.300 | but it doesn't matter, that's the point.

01:01:34.140 | I think it's ultimately liberating as a human being,

01:01:38.540 | public figure or not, to think deeply about this world

01:01:43.540 | and to keep changing, which is like,

01:01:47.020 | I think there's a deep hunger for that

01:01:49.140 | in political discourse,

01:01:51.060 | that people are so tribal currently about politics

01:01:55.460 | that they want to see somebody who says,

01:01:58.020 | "You know what, I changed my mind on this,"

01:02:00.900 | and then keep changing their mind and keep asking questions,

01:02:03.780 | keep showing that they're open-minded,

01:02:05.380 | all that kind of stuff.

01:02:06.220 | - But when you want someone in a position of political power

01:02:10.100 | to change their mind because they realize

01:02:12.300 | that there might be a better way,

01:02:13.700 | not because they realize that by changing their mind,

01:02:15.980 | they're gonna get a new demographic to vote for them.

01:02:18.300 | That's transparent as shit, nobody wants to see that.

01:02:21.020 | Like, that's a person who can't separate their position

01:02:26.020 | from their people they're supposed to be helping.

01:02:27.660 | - Yeah, and you can usually smell that.

01:02:29.980 | We're just talking offline about,

01:02:34.180 | there's something about Hillary Clinton

01:02:36.180 | where she talked about changing her mind on gay marriage,

01:02:40.420 | that it felt like this is a political calculation

01:02:44.940 | versus like really deeply thinking about like,

01:02:48.060 | what things do we do in this world

01:02:53.060 | that violate basic human rights?

01:02:55.100 | Like really thinking about deeply,

01:02:56.960 | and of course politicians are calculating,

01:03:00.420 | but you can see it.

01:03:01.780 | This is the thing, that's why I like,

01:03:03.620 | on the human level, there's like political policies,

01:03:07.660 | but there's also humans,

01:03:08.800 | and I've always liked Bernie Sanders, for example.

01:03:11.320 | I don't know, not the later, perhaps, Bernie Sanders,

01:03:13.680 | but I used to listen to him back in the day,

01:03:15.540 | and it felt, and people might disagree with me,

01:03:18.860 | but it felt like there was a real human

01:03:21.740 | struggling with ideas.

01:03:23.340 | Whatever, agree with him or not,

01:03:25.540 | it felt like he wasn't doing political calculation,

01:03:27.900 | he was just a human.

01:03:28.780 | - He couldn't be further away from my political ideals,

01:03:32.220 | but also like, there's an obvious authenticity

01:03:36.220 | to his passion for what he's saying

01:03:38.560 | that is not present in other candidates,

01:03:40.820 | and you could see it,

01:03:42.300 | all these people that have been in politics forever,

01:03:44.540 | like from all the way back

01:03:45.860 | when Hillary was a lawyer in the '70s.

01:03:47.860 | There's a couple of shots of her

01:03:49.100 | in a courtroom in the '70s, though,

01:03:50.780 | she's looking all right.

01:03:52.540 | She's got those big glasses on.

01:03:54.420 | Kind of a little bit of a nerdy babe back in the day.

01:03:57.260 | - Oh, you mean like? (laughs)

01:04:00.340 | Wow, John Clark says Hillary Clinton

01:04:02.660 | was a baby back in the day.

01:04:04.060 | - '73 Clinton, yeah.

01:04:05.800 | - That's an interesting question

01:04:10.700 | about authenticity in politicians.

01:04:12.320 | Do you think, like Hillary Clinton,

01:04:15.300 | just the Clintons in general are a good example of that.

01:04:18.060 | Why do you think they become over time so inauthentic?

01:04:21.700 | Is it the system that changes them?

01:04:23.420 | Is it their own hunger for power?

01:04:25.460 | Is it, what is it?

01:04:27.320 | Or were they always inauthentic?

01:04:29.860 | - Well, first I'd like to say that,

01:04:31.300 | I don't know if you know this,

01:04:32.140 | but I come from a bit of a political dynasty myself.

01:04:35.820 | I was on the student government several times

01:04:38.900 | in high school, and my dad won the runoff

01:04:42.220 | in a special election in Bradenton Beach, Florida.

01:04:45.260 | I think there's like 700 people there.

01:04:47.300 | - So your dad got you the job?

01:04:49.660 | - Yeah, we're basically,

01:04:51.620 | a lot of people compare us to the Kennedys.

01:04:54.100 | My guess with the politicians is that,

01:04:56.540 | and you can see it now as we're becoming more cognizant

01:04:59.700 | as people to the political process,

01:05:02.140 | I think the process corrupts people.

01:05:04.300 | And I think that, I don't know the ins and outs of it.

01:05:06.980 | I've listened to people who are far more educated

01:05:09.300 | on it than me, and I'm unprepared

01:05:11.420 | to cite any of their points.

01:05:13.440 | I think you can see it a little bit in Dan Crenshaw.

01:05:16.860 | Can I say this?

01:05:17.700 | - Yeah, I like him.

01:05:19.660 | - I really liked Dan,

01:05:21.540 | especially like a year, year and a half ago.

01:05:23.580 | He seemed very level-headed.

01:05:25.980 | It's clear to me now that as he panders more and more

01:05:29.300 | to the right, it's because he's setting himself

01:05:32.340 | for a presidential run.

01:05:34.060 | It's clear that that's happening.

01:05:35.700 | And he just doesn't seem like the same authentic,

01:05:38.140 | ideals-oriented guy that he did a year and a half ago.

01:05:42.460 | Now I could be wrong on that.

01:05:43.620 | I could be way off.

01:05:44.660 | But I think that you can take someone

01:05:47.060 | as honest as you want to,

01:05:49.340 | and when you start them on that path to the presidency,

01:05:52.620 | you become so unbelievably beholden

01:05:56.260 | to so many people and entities along the way,

01:05:58.960 | that by the time you get to the final destination,

01:06:02.540 | the Oval Office, all you're doing is paying back

01:06:05.580 | the favors that got you there,

01:06:07.020 | and you never get to serve the people

01:06:08.500 | you're supposed to serve.

01:06:09.860 | Your primary focus is on your office

01:06:12.500 | and not on the people that you're supposed to be helping.

01:06:15.180 | I think that that's a humongous problem,

01:06:17.060 | and we could talk all about campaign finance reform

01:06:19.820 | in a two-party system, but at the end of the day,

01:06:22.620 | the people who are running for political posts,

01:06:26.460 | they're working to keep a job.

01:06:29.100 | They're not working to improve the lives

01:06:30.740 | of the constituents, which is different.

01:06:33.420 | A long, long time ago, a lot of politicians,

01:06:36.080 | those were part-time jobs, and they held other posts

01:06:40.460 | out West.

01:06:41.300 | They were ranchers by day and sheriff by night,

01:06:43.500 | whatever the case might be,

01:06:44.860 | but now you have such a cushy path

01:06:47.340 | for the rest of your life

01:06:48.540 | that the goal is to just be a politician,

01:06:51.140 | not do the things that you think a politician

01:06:53.140 | is supposed to do, and that's a problem.

01:06:55.540 | - By the way, I'll talk to Dan on this.

01:06:58.700 | It's funny, I like the version of him from a year ago,

01:07:02.420 | and I haven't been really paying attention,

01:07:03.820 | so I'll actually pay more attention now

01:07:07.200 | and ask him that exact question,

01:07:08.800 | like how do you prevent yourself from changing,

01:07:11.560 | becoming what the Clintons became.

01:07:14.360 | I tend to believe, like there's conspiratorial stuff

01:07:16.480 | about Clintons and all these politicians.

01:07:17.920 | I tend to believe that there were actually

01:07:19.840 | good, thoughtful people back in the day,

01:07:22.320 | and the system changes them.

01:07:23.760 | It's not even the system.

01:07:26.360 | There's something about just the process of campaigning.

01:07:30.640 | I just think it wears you down

01:07:32.280 | to where if you look at the percentage of time you spend

01:07:35.920 | on the kinds of conversations you have,

01:07:38.400 | it's like one, you do these speeches,

01:07:41.720 | which you repeat the same thing over and over and over.

01:07:44.000 | It beats the process of thinking.

01:07:47.620 | You just exhaust your brain

01:07:49.100 | to where you're not thinking anymore,

01:07:50.320 | you're just repeating.

01:07:51.280 | It's exceptionally difficult to keep making speech

01:07:55.360 | after speech after speech,

01:07:57.560 | saying the same thing over and over and over again,

01:07:59.920 | and at the same time, thinking deeply

01:08:01.880 | and changing your mind and learning.

01:08:04.040 | And then also the pandering to financial,

01:08:08.000 | having phone calls, fundraising, all those kinds of things.

01:08:11.440 | - That's what they do now.

01:08:12.280 | They spend most of their time fundraising.

01:08:13.800 | They're not worried about anything.

01:08:15.640 | Sorry to interrupt you, but I was gonna say

01:08:16.960 | that you can see there's a fuel.

01:08:19.500 | The more attention and the higher regard you're held in

01:08:25.360 | in your community, and the more sycophants

01:08:28.400 | continue to blow smoke up your ass,

01:08:30.480 | the more it changes the way you present yourself.

01:08:32.880 | And you can see it in every walk of life.

01:08:35.120 | I mean, jujitsu is a tiny, tiny little section of the world,

01:08:38.440 | but you see it in the jujitsu community

01:08:40.200 | when someone all of a sudden starts a social media page

01:08:42.520 | or whatever, and they get a bunch of people

01:08:44.880 | basically cyber-follating them on their Instagram page,

01:08:49.640 | they change.

01:08:51.200 | - Follating, is that a word?

01:08:52.480 | - I think so.

01:08:53.480 | - So giving fellatio?

01:08:54.880 | - Yeah.

01:08:55.720 | - So follating.

01:08:56.600 | - Yeah.

01:08:57.440 | - Jamie, look it up.

01:08:59.720 | I think, but in those people, it changes their character.

01:09:03.480 | - Yeah.

01:09:04.320 | - It changes who they are, because they become emboldened,

01:09:06.840 | and now they've got this mythical cyber mob behind them.

01:09:11.340 | - There's a sign at the entrance to your gym

01:09:13.600 | that reads, "For every moment of triumph,"

01:09:16.640 | it's a quote by Hunter S. Thompson.

01:09:19.280 | It reads, "For every moment of triumph,

01:09:21.320 | for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled."

01:09:25.520 | What does this quote mean to you?

01:09:29.640 | - That quote to me is about, mostly about sacrifice.

01:09:32.960 | And it's about, to achieve anything great

01:09:37.920 | or anything beautiful or to triumph,

01:09:40.880 | you have to have sacrificed so many things to get there,

01:09:44.280 | unless you're the most unbelievably,

01:09:46.000 | genetically gifted person in the world,

01:09:48.800 | and greatness is just, you know, falls upon you,

01:09:52.080 | it's just raining from the sky.

01:09:53.600 | I think, on your path to greatness,

01:09:57.920 | on your path to success and triumph,

01:10:00.040 | you leave a lot of carnage in your wake,

01:10:02.120 | personal relationships, other goals,

01:10:04.520 | things that you didn't pursue, you know,

01:10:08.200 | other unfulfilled dreams,

01:10:09.760 | and you kind of have to sell a lot of that out

01:10:11.920 | in order to be really at the peak of your field

01:10:16.920 | or what you want to be.

01:10:19.920 | I know that that's happened in my life.

01:10:23.120 | I mean, there's tons and tons of relationships

01:10:26.520 | that, you know, couldn't survive

01:10:29.440 | the way that I was living my life

01:10:31.680 | because when I was trying to be a big time fighter

01:10:34.080 | or like when I was just training all the time,

01:10:36.560 | tons of relationships dissolve themselves naturally,

01:10:40.680 | some not so naturally, some people get it,

01:10:43.560 | some people don't get it, some people hate you,

01:10:46.560 | you miss tons of other opportunities.

01:10:48.920 | And I think that's kind of what that quote means to me.

01:10:51.000 | It's about sacrifice, it's about,

01:10:54.560 | you're giving up what you want now for what you want more.

01:10:58.480 | - And it's the trampling of souls, it's messy too,

01:11:05.800 | 'cause it's not clear what the right path is.

01:11:09.900 | Like that sacrifice is not obvious

01:11:13.560 | that those are the right sacrifices to make.

01:11:16.680 | You might be ruining your own life,

01:11:19.880 | but the fact that you're willing to take that risk

01:11:23.080 | and sort of go all in on whether it's stupid or not,

01:11:28.080 | go all in on something,

01:11:31.320 | that the possibility of creating something beautiful

01:11:35.720 | is there.

01:11:36.560 | - Who says it's stupid?

01:11:37.640 | If you're going all in on it, you don't think it's stupid.

01:11:40.040 | Someone else might think it's stupid,

01:11:41.760 | but I mean, who really cares?

01:11:44.000 | - Well, I'm of many minds on many things,

01:11:46.480 | so I feel like there's certain minds,

01:11:49.360 | certain moods of the day where you think it's stupid.

01:11:52.200 | Like relationships is a beautiful one,

01:11:53.960 | which is, you've seen the movie "Whiplash," by any chance?

01:11:56.920 | - Yes.

01:11:57.760 | - It seems like in a man's life,

01:12:02.760 | or it could be a woman's, but I don't identify as a woman,

01:12:06.600 | so I know the man, the lived experience--

01:12:08.440 | - You did though, it's 2020, bro.

01:12:10.360 | - But my lived experience for now is that of a man,

01:12:13.760 | we'll see about tomorrow.

01:12:15.200 | And there is, in the pursuit of excellence,

01:12:19.920 | there's often a choice of,

01:12:22.620 | some of the souls that must be trampled

01:12:26.400 | are personal relationships with humans in your life

01:12:29.640 | that you might deeply care about.

01:12:30.920 | It could be family, it could be friends,

01:12:33.400 | it could be loved ones of all different forms,

01:12:36.760 | it could be the people that, your colleagues,

01:12:40.120 | that are dependent on you, people who will lose jobs

01:12:42.840 | because of the decisions you make, all this kind of stuff.

01:12:45.800 | It seems that that moment happens,

01:12:48.640 | and I'm not sure that sacrifice is always the correct one.

01:12:52.680 | To me, the movie "Whiplash,"

01:12:53.960 | for people who haven't seen, spoiler alert maybe,

01:12:56.800 | I don't even know if that movie has any spoilers,

01:13:00.280 | but there is a relationship with a female,

01:13:02.840 | there's a student, there's a drummer

01:13:04.860 | that's pursuing excellence

01:13:06.400 | of this particular art form of drumming,

01:13:09.360 | and he has a brief, fleeting relationship with a female,

01:13:14.360 | and he also has an instructor

01:13:16.400 | that's pushing him to his limits

01:13:18.400 | in what appears to be awfully a lot like

01:13:20.640 | a toxic relationship, and he chooses, not chooses,

01:13:25.640 | he naturally makes the decision

01:13:31.160 | to sacrifice the romantic relationship with a woman

01:13:34.800 | in further pursuit of this chaos of,

01:13:39.360 | this chaotic pursuit of excellence,

01:13:41.440 | and that doesn't feel like a deliberate decision.

01:13:45.520 | It feels like a giant mess of an emotional mess

01:13:49.160 | where you're just kind of like a fish swimming against stream

01:13:54.160 | just like, fuck it.

01:13:57.560 | You let go of all the things

01:13:59.560 | that convention says you should appreciate.

01:14:02.320 | You throw away the possibility of a stable life,

01:14:04.760 | of a comfortable life, of what society says

01:14:08.760 | is a meaningful life, and just pursue this crazy thing

01:14:12.200 | full of seeming toxicity

01:14:14.960 | with crazy people surrounding you.

01:14:16.880 | I don't know, so I don't know what the right decision is.

01:14:19.400 | Part of my brain says you should stay with the girl.

01:14:22.600 | Fuck that instructor that's making you,

01:14:24.840 | that's pushing you to places where it's like,

01:14:29.120 | that are destructive, potentially destructive,

01:14:31.200 | like could lead to suicide,

01:14:32.760 | could lead you to completely

01:14:39.800 | fail or fail on your pursuit of excellence

01:14:43.920 | or destroy the dream, the passionate pursuit

01:14:48.320 | of the thing that you've always dreamed for,

01:14:50.080 | in that case is drumming.

01:14:51.440 | I don't know, I'm on many minds there.

01:14:53.240 | Like what is the right thing to do?

01:14:54.560 | - So my first two thoughts are,

01:14:55.720 | number one, fuck convention.

01:14:58.320 | What is convention?

01:14:59.280 | It's like some laid out path,

01:15:01.720 | some linear progression of the way

01:15:03.240 | your life is supposed to go,

01:15:04.840 | like that someone can draw a picture of at the end.

01:15:07.680 | That shit's, first of all, it's boring and whatever.

01:15:11.960 | And it's, I don't wanna say that it's cowardly

01:15:14.760 | because it isn't cowardly,

01:15:16.160 | but for someone who's not conventional

01:15:18.520 | to not be non-conventional is cowardly,

01:15:21.080 | to get sucked into the convention, that's first.

01:15:23.600 | Second of all, I believe that scene in the diner

01:15:27.920 | in that movie where he tells her,

01:15:29.840 | "You're in my way because I'm gonna want to be with you

01:15:33.680 | or you're going to want me to be going out

01:15:35.640 | to dinner with you and I know I should be practicing

01:15:37.660 | or I know I should be training.

01:15:39.120 | And then ultimately I'm gonna make,

01:15:40.680 | I'm either gonna feel bad about not being with you

01:15:43.400 | by training or I'm gonna skip the training to be with you

01:15:46.080 | and neither one is right."

01:15:47.680 | The whole thing that they don't mention in that

01:15:49.520 | is that that's the wrong girl.

01:15:51.120 | That's the wrong girl.

01:15:53.180 | The right girl is a gangster.

01:15:55.880 | The right girl says, "Oh, you have practice tonight?

01:15:59.920 | I'll leave you a sandwich and some milk

01:16:01.880 | so that you can, you know, outside the door.

01:16:04.760 | Let me know when you're done

01:16:05.800 | or you have some like free time."

01:16:07.620 | Like the right girl compliments that.

01:16:09.440 | She's not an impediment in any way.

01:16:11.840 | Even if what you want to do is be with her so much

01:16:16.380 | that you're putting the drums down

01:16:17.680 | or you're putting the bass down

01:16:18.720 | or you're picking up the pizza

01:16:19.880 | or you're not going to training.

01:16:21.140 | Like that girl, without even telling you

01:16:24.700 | why she's making decisions,

01:16:26.320 | is making decisions to help you achieve your goal.

01:16:29.440 | Now that might sound like some sort of like

01:16:32.280 | chauvinistic king of the castle type shit,

01:16:34.200 | like where everyone should cater to you.

01:16:36.220 | But the fact of the matter is

01:16:37.920 | that person is a compliment to your life

01:16:42.960 | in helping you do your thing.

01:16:44.760 | And in your own way, you're helping them

01:16:46.660 | to achieve whatever their goals are also.

01:16:48.880 | It's uncommon that you have two people under the same roof

01:16:51.880 | striving to be unbelievably excellent in one small area.

01:16:56.640 | It's not impossible, but it's uncommon.

01:16:59.040 | Like relationships have to be like binary systems,

01:17:01.920 | like two stars.

01:17:03.120 | Like the gravitational pull is what keeps you together

01:17:05.840 | and circling around one another, right?

01:17:08.080 | And one is bigger than the other and they'll fluctuate

01:17:12.440 | and the stars will get bigger and they'll get smaller

01:17:15.200 | and they'll contract based on positioning and composition.

01:17:19.500 | That's the way a relationship should be.

01:17:21.680 | Not an asteroid coming in to disrupt

01:17:24.440 | the surface of your planet.

01:17:27.080 | It's a binary system, it's a compliment.

01:17:28.800 | That girl was the wrong girl for him.

01:17:30.760 | - So you shouldn't, like the big unconventional dreams

01:17:36.220 | should not be adjusted to fit into this world.

01:17:41.220 | 'Cause I mean, there is a part of me

01:17:42.860 | that's like full of self-doubt.

01:17:43.940 | Well, maybe you're just a dick.

01:17:45.740 | Maybe-- - Yeah, who cares?

01:17:48.020 | Lex, so first of all, who cares?

01:17:52.820 | - This is, by the way, somebody who's,

01:17:55.220 | you have recently gotten, well, recently,

01:17:59.820 | in the span of the history of the universe

01:18:01.540 | is recently you've gotten to a relationship,

01:18:03.140 | but you haven't always, you have not felt the need

01:18:07.260 | to be in the relationship just because you're supposed to

01:18:10.660 | by society's kind of momentum.

01:18:13.820 | - If you, I think that if you really want anything,

01:18:16.940 | you've gotta be prepared fully to be the exact opposite.

01:18:20.740 | If you're a person who's looking for a relationship,

01:18:22.900 | the only way you're gonna get in an awesome relationship

01:18:24.740 | is by being comfortable being alone.

01:18:26.780 | 'Cause that's the risk.

01:18:27.980 | If you're a person who's driven by money,

01:18:29.420 | you've gotta be comfortable being totally poor

01:18:31.500 | because that's the risk, right?

01:18:33.580 | And when you're constantly hedging your bets,

01:18:37.220 | you're never all in.

01:18:38.780 | You're never all in on the thing you're trying to do.

01:18:41.420 | A relationship has to complement your life.

01:18:45.580 | You can't say it's okay to want to be in a relationship,

01:18:50.540 | but you can't want to be in a relationship so bad

01:18:53.700 | that you take someone in who fits the suit.

01:18:56.340 | And it's like, oh, our schedules kind of work out.

01:18:58.580 | You live near me and this and that and the other thing.

01:19:00.700 | Because the logistics of a relationship

01:19:02.700 | are not always perfect.

01:19:03.900 | What matters is when the two people are together.

01:19:07.100 | That's the perfect part of it.

01:19:08.700 | And it's great to want to meet people

01:19:13.500 | and say, if we meet and some sort of a relationship develops,

01:19:18.500 | I'm willing to run with it,

01:19:20.540 | but I'm not meeting you hoping a relationship develops.

01:19:23.620 | I think you kind of put the cart before the horse

01:19:25.500 | in a lot of those situations.

01:19:27.260 | It's like when guys meet.

01:19:28.940 | No guy goes out and is like, I'm looking for a bro.

01:19:32.460 | Nobody does that.

01:19:33.300 | You go to the gym and you run into a bunch of dudes

01:19:35.140 | and the next thing you know, someone's cool

01:19:36.580 | and they want to talk about fighting

01:19:37.980 | and you're fucking shotgunning beers.

01:19:39.420 | And all of a sudden you got a bro.

01:19:41.020 | And that's how it works.

01:19:41.860 | It works the same way with pimps.

01:19:43.180 | - What's a shotgun and beers?

01:19:45.180 | - I'll show you after this.

01:19:46.020 | You poke a hole in the bottom and you open the top.

01:19:49.300 | - Yeah.

01:19:50.140 | - Yeah, it's very--

01:19:50.980 | - This is the problem with America.

01:19:52.980 | Drink vodka like a man.

01:19:55.020 | Okay, now don't poke holes in beers.

01:19:57.260 | This is the problem with the frat culture.

01:19:59.420 | They don't really know how to drink.

01:20:00.620 | They think they know how to drink.

01:20:01.660 | They don't know how to drink.

01:20:02.980 | What do you think makes a successful relationship

01:20:07.940 | if we can linger on that a little longer?

01:20:09.980 | Let me ask John Clark about love.

01:20:15.020 | I didn't ask a question, but let me just say love.

01:20:20.200 | - About love.

01:20:26.700 | Are you one of those people who never says, "I love you"?

01:20:31.700 | - No, no.

01:20:33.300 | I'm an extreme person.

01:20:34.580 | And my emotions are also extreme.

01:20:37.740 | And one of the things I concern myself with,

01:20:42.080 | maybe this is philosophical

01:20:44.700 | and martial arts warrior soldier type related stuff

01:20:47.460 | is I don't want anyone,

01:20:50.320 | if I die tonight on the drive home,

01:20:52.380 | hopefully that doesn't happen,

01:20:54.140 | I hope that no one is left questioning

01:20:56.300 | how I felt about them.

01:20:57.460 | And people I don't like probably are not questioning that.

01:21:02.820 | And so the thing that I've had to learn

01:21:04.900 | how to do later in life is to tell the people

01:21:06.660 | that you care about that you care about them.

01:21:10.120 | And each thing can be equally off-putting

01:21:14.860 | to the receiver of the message.

01:21:16.500 | - Each thing can be equally off-putting

01:21:20.100 | to the receiver of the message.

01:21:20.940 | - When you're letting someone know

01:21:21.760 | how much you dislike them,

01:21:22.720 | that can be off-putting to the person

01:21:24.140 | receiving that message.

01:21:25.300 | And when you tell someone how much you care about them,

01:21:27.140 | that can also be off-putting to the person,

01:21:29.880 | depending on how they view their relationship with you.

01:21:32.660 | But it's still important to get it out there.

01:21:34.620 | Like you shouldn't hold those things in

01:21:37.220 | because you're worried about how they'll be received

01:21:39.260 | or if they'll come back at you.

01:21:41.600 | - So you're okay going all in on these?

01:21:45.520 | - Yeah.

01:21:46.360 | - Not afraid of commitment?

01:21:47.760 | - No, I'm not afraid of commitment.

01:21:48.920 | Anyone who says they're afraid of commitment

01:21:50.180 | is full of shit.

01:21:51.020 | You know what they're afraid of?

01:21:51.860 | They're afraid of commitment with that person.

01:21:54.700 | That's what they're afraid of.

01:21:56.060 | Like when someone knocks you on your ass

01:22:00.260 | and they come into your life

01:22:01.860 | and you're flushed with all these emotions,

01:22:04.580 | you're not worried about,

01:22:05.940 | oh, I don't really like commitment.

01:22:07.480 | No, because they've knocked you on your ass.

01:22:08.920 | You want to be with them.

01:22:10.040 | You want those things.

01:22:11.620 | The two most alive points in your life,

01:22:13.860 | I think people feel is the euphoria of a new relationship

01:22:16.740 | and then the loss when that love is gone.

01:22:21.000 | You'll never feel more, I don't think,

01:22:23.640 | than in those moments in your life.

01:22:26.080 | - See, the nice thing about the loss is it lasts longer.

01:22:29.940 | - Yeah.

01:22:32.200 | (laughing)

01:22:33.800 | - That's a Louis C.K. point that he makes,

01:22:36.060 | which is like, in his show, I think,

01:22:41.060 | is a conversation with an older gentleman

01:22:44.480 | that says that's his favorite part of the relationship

01:22:47.400 | is that period between the loss of the relationship

01:22:51.960 | and the real death, which is forgetting the person.

01:22:56.260 | But that period lasts the longest

01:22:58.080 | and that's the most fulfilling.

01:23:00.000 | Like missing the other person is as fulfilling

01:23:04.280 | as the actual love, the early infatuation,

01:23:08.960 | which is interesting.

01:23:09.800 | I also think of the Bukowski.

01:23:11.780 | I return to that.

01:23:13.620 | There's a little clip of him in an interview

01:23:16.720 | saying that love is a fog that dissipates

01:23:21.720 | with the first light of reality or something like that.

01:23:26.600 | So basically emphasizing that it's this very,

01:23:29.400 | very, very fleeting thing.

01:23:31.280 | That it's a moment's thing and then it just fades

01:23:36.280 | and everything else is something else.

01:23:39.040 | So love is only a temporary thing, which is interesting.

01:23:41.800 | I think some people say that's cynical.

01:23:44.880 | I don't know.

01:23:45.700 | I don't know what to think of it.

01:23:46.540 | I think it's important to understand

01:23:49.280 | that everything is fleeting

01:23:51.400 | when you don't put effort into it.

01:23:53.260 | Almost everything will be fleeting.

01:23:55.760 | If you don't put effort into it,

01:23:56.800 | most people will get fat and lazy.

01:23:58.120 | If you don't put effort into something,

01:23:59.360 | you're gonna not be good at playing guitar or playing bass.

01:24:04.040 | You've gotta put effort into it.

01:24:05.000 | The same thing goes for a relationship.

01:24:07.400 | That, the awesome part of it, that like love part,

01:24:12.160 | that dies soon and early on in a relationship

01:24:15.740 | because it's so good that we think

01:24:18.300 | we don't have to work at it.

01:24:19.780 | But you do.

01:24:20.620 | You have to keep doing the things

01:24:21.840 | and you gotta keep things new and crisp and fresh.

01:24:24.560 | And when you, different people probably feel differently

01:24:29.560 | about this, but I don't know, you walk around your girl

01:24:33.720 | and you start farting and stuff, that's when it all dies.

01:24:37.300 | That's when it dies.

01:24:39.160 | We're all human beings.

01:24:40.520 | We're all here and our bodies work in the same way,

01:24:44.380 | but you start to chip away at this beautiful thing

01:24:48.200 | when you stop, when you buck conventional courtesy

01:24:53.200 | and things like that.

01:24:56.720 | - Well, take it for granted, basically.

01:24:58.120 | - You take it for granted, yeah.

01:24:59.200 | - I mean, it's the same thing with life.

01:25:01.240 | It's like, it's the same, I'm a big fan of meditating

01:25:04.920 | on death, that you could die today.

01:25:08.100 | In the same way you should meditate

01:25:09.660 | on this relationship could end today.

01:25:12.040 | This connection with another human could be,

01:25:13.600 | this is the last time you could be interacting.

01:25:17.320 | - And your chances of that increase

01:25:19.200 | when you take it for granted and you shit on people.

01:25:21.480 | But when you work at it, the chances of that decrease.

01:25:24.080 | It's never gonna be zero, but it decreases.

01:25:27.080 | And when you do that, when you're the person

01:25:30.200 | and you're trying to maintain and you're trying

01:25:32.840 | to work at the relationship, you gotta make sure

01:25:35.960 | that both people are working at it.

01:25:37.640 | Otherwise, you're just a fucking chump.

01:25:39.760 | - Okay, let's return back to mixed martial arts.

01:25:43.500 | Let me ask the ridiculous question of,

01:25:45.520 | who do you think are the top three,

01:25:47.840 | maybe top five greatest fighters of all time?

01:25:50.620 | - It's so hard to compare fighters across generations.

01:25:56.800 | - And maybe one way to say it is,

01:25:58.880 | which metrics would you put on the table

01:26:01.480 | as to measure what a great fighter is?

01:26:03.480 | - There was a guy named Dioxippus.

01:26:08.300 | (Zubin laughs)

01:26:11.160 | In the fourth century.

01:26:14.380 | And he was such a badass that in the Olympics in 336 BC,

01:26:18.780 | no one even showed up to fight him in the pancreation event.

01:26:22.020 | Nobody even showed up 'cause he was fucking everybody up.

01:26:24.580 | Years later, he was retired.

01:26:26.420 | And this crazy Macedonian dude came there at some dinner

01:26:30.040 | for Alexander the Great.

01:26:32.180 | Everyone's chilling, drinking whatever they were drinking

01:26:34.640 | out of their chalices.

01:26:36.460 | And this Macedonian dude threatened him and challenged him.

01:26:40.740 | So Dioxippus said, "Yeah, man, we'll throw down."

01:26:43.740 | And they set the time and the place.

01:26:45.780 | Macedonian dude comes out,

01:26:47.340 | like body armor, spear, shield, all this other shit.

01:26:52.340 | Dioxippus came out absolutely naked with a wooden club

01:26:56.420 | and took on this much younger guy,

01:26:58.500 | beat the living crap out of him,

01:26:59.740 | and then put his foot on his throat,

01:27:01.580 | and then didn't even kill him

01:27:04.140 | in a show of ultimate power for the time.

01:27:08.380 | So I think--

01:27:09.220 | - There's something about the guy being naked, too,

01:27:11.300 | it's just extra demeaning.

01:27:13.020 | - Extra demeaning, yeah.

01:27:14.740 | - Okay, can we rephrase the question then?

01:27:18.580 | Because those are clearly going to be

01:27:21.020 | some probably forgotten warriors in history.

01:27:23.920 | Let's take it to modern day mixed martial arts in the UFC.

01:27:27.660 | Well, just mixed martial arts there.

01:27:30.380 | Who do you think are the top fighters of all time?

01:27:32.180 | What metrics would you consider

01:27:34.180 | in trying to answer this perhaps unanswerable question?

01:27:38.260 | - I think one of the things you wanna think about

01:27:40.100 | is strength of opponent at the time you fought them.

01:27:44.220 | So for example, fighting BJ Penn in his prime

01:27:48.260 | and beating him is far different

01:27:50.380 | than beating BJ Penn last year, right?

01:27:52.780 | So to say you have a victory over BJ Penn

01:27:54.820 | is not the same given the time frame of when it happened.

01:27:59.060 | Not to take anything away from anyone who's beaten BJ Penn.

01:28:02.060 | Just use that as an example of someone whose career

01:28:05.340 | went into a different direction.

01:28:07.820 | I would say the guy who I think is probably the best

01:28:12.820 | that people are the least familiar with

01:28:17.340 | would be Murillo Bustamante.

01:28:18.740 | And I think he was a guy who was one of the guys

01:28:23.260 | with the first really good physical build for MMA,

01:28:26.780 | which I think is narrow from the chest to the back

01:28:29.860 | and long shoulder to shoulder

01:28:32.300 | and kind of sinewy made out of steel cable.

01:28:34.940 | That was a guy who could box.

01:28:36.740 | That was a guy who could wrestle.

01:28:38.100 | And that was a guy who had great jujitsu.

01:28:39.940 | He wasn't a great kickboxer,

01:28:41.740 | but at the time he didn't need it.

01:28:43.180 | Fought everybody and gave everybody a run.

01:28:46.740 | I think he's probably one of those guys

01:28:50.060 | who's gotta be considered.

01:28:52.740 | - Yeah, there's a few killers that never,

01:28:55.180 | 'cause like why is he not in the discussion?

01:28:57.980 | 'Cause like I think greatness requires

01:29:02.060 | both the skill and the opportunity to meet each other.

01:29:06.780 | - And when you talk about a fighter,

01:29:08.020 | the other thing that really a good fighter

01:29:10.340 | needs to become great is a foil.

01:29:12.340 | - Yeah.

01:29:13.180 | - And so many fighters don't have a foil.

01:29:15.540 | That's one of the biggest attractions,

01:29:17.140 | I think, of early Mike Tyson's career.

01:29:19.220 | He didn't have a foil.

01:29:20.460 | He had no one driving him.

01:29:21.980 | And by the time he did,

01:29:23.100 | by the time he had a foil in Holyfield,

01:29:25.140 | his career was in a different place.

01:29:26.740 | - But he's one of the greats all the time

01:29:28.620 | and he never really had a foil.

01:29:30.100 | So his greatness was in unparalleled destruction

01:29:35.100 | of like nobody's, well, of lesser opponents.

01:29:40.980 | - Right, and so when people debate

01:29:45.260 | the level of greatness of Mike Tyson,

01:29:48.020 | that's one of the things they say.

01:29:49.060 | Like he didn't fight a lot of killers in their prime.

01:29:51.940 | I think you've obviously gotta say in that conversation,

01:29:55.980 | I have a really difficult time

01:29:58.420 | keeping George St. Pierre out of the conversation.

01:30:01.060 | Only because he was able to beat you with anything.

01:30:06.420 | He could out jab you, he could out wrestle you,

01:30:09.780 | and he could submit you.

01:30:11.980 | The problem I have with Fedor is his career

01:30:15.060 | also took a drastic turn towards the end.

01:30:19.020 | When he was fighting in Pride,

01:30:22.140 | he was doing a lot more grappling

01:30:23.820 | and then he just started casting that over him

01:30:25.740 | right at people.

01:30:27.660 | And his game kind of changed at that point.

01:30:30.580 | You can't take anything away from his greatness,

01:30:32.180 | but at that time, the great heavyweights

01:30:36.100 | were not really fighting in Pride

01:30:38.620 | and they didn't really exist yet.

01:30:39.820 | And by the time he fought a really good one,

01:30:41.220 | Fabricio Verdum, he did get submitted there.

01:30:44.100 | - Does his later performance color your

01:30:47.980 | and our perception of his greatness?

01:30:50.300 | In general about fighters.

01:30:52.860 | - Not mine, but I'm someone who's like

01:30:55.340 | intimately involved in the sport.

01:30:57.300 | But it colors everyone else's.

01:30:58.740 | Same with Anderson Silva.

01:31:00.140 | I don't think Anderson Silva doesn't wanna fight

01:31:01.500 | in like seven years or something.

01:31:02.620 | Or is it one?

01:31:04.100 | That's a guy who in his prime was one of the best fighters.

01:31:07.980 | - Is he in the top five for you?

01:31:09.580 | - I think he's probably in the top five, yeah.

01:31:11.060 | - Greatest striker of all time or no?

01:31:13.020 | - In MMA?

01:31:13.860 | - In mixed martial arts.

01:31:15.020 | - In mixed martial arts?

01:31:16.260 | That's a tough question.

01:31:19.660 | The greatest MMA striker of all time.

01:31:22.340 | - 'Cause the timing,

01:31:25.380 | we were talking about foot sweeps, right?

01:31:27.660 | Who makes it look easier than Anderson Silva?

01:31:31.460 | - I think in an incredibly short sample of his prime,

01:31:36.460 | it's gotta be Anderson Silva.

01:31:37.980 | And I think you have to consider discussing Lyoto Machida

01:31:41.900 | for his unbelievable manipulation of distance.

01:31:45.580 | Which is something that people don't really talk

01:31:47.380 | too much about in terms of fighting

01:31:48.980 | unless you're someone in the sport.

01:31:50.780 | His use of distance and the ability to like

01:31:54.380 | what we call pop out, like make you miss by one inch

01:31:57.860 | so that he could follow your fist back in

01:31:59.980 | as you retract it and then hit you over the top,

01:32:02.920 | that's a thing of beauty.

01:32:06.220 | Anderson Silva, when he became a counter striker,

01:32:08.580 | when he got to his prime in the UFC,

01:32:10.260 | that was a thing of beauty.

01:32:11.860 | That was a thing of beauty.

01:32:13.580 | So I think definitely those two guys

01:32:15.100 | and Murillo Bustamante's gotta be the third guy.

01:32:18.580 | There's just so many good guys now.

01:32:20.180 | - So where do you put, in terms of metrics,

01:32:23.140 | you mentioned GSP and Anderson Silva,

01:32:24.940 | I think they have a large number of defenses of a title.

01:32:27.740 | Is that important to you?

01:32:30.140 | Like this kind of consistent domination?

01:32:32.780 | - No, because it's easily manipulated

01:32:36.180 | by the people making money off the fights.

01:32:38.280 | So there was a great quote one time

01:32:41.620 | when UFC was coming to prominence

01:32:43.340 | and Vince McMahon from the WWE, he said,

01:32:46.740 | "The difference between what we do and what UFC does

01:32:51.340 | "is that when we have a superstar,

01:32:54.660 | "I can make sure he stays on top

01:32:56.220 | "until he's no longer a superstar

01:32:57.540 | "because we have predetermined results.

01:32:59.700 | "The UFC can't do that

01:33:00.860 | "because they're actually having fights."

01:33:02.340 | Well, it's true and false.

01:33:03.700 | You can't do that, but you can give your superstars

01:33:06.820 | the most favorable matchups

01:33:08.380 | to keep them on top for the longest.

01:33:10.220 | So people always talk about title defenses

01:33:12.180 | as if the guy they're fighting, the challenger,

01:33:14.660 | is always the person most deserving of the shot.

01:33:17.300 | And it's just not true.

01:33:18.140 | So I don't put that much stock in it.

01:33:20.340 | - Is it possible to put a guy in consideration

01:33:24.380 | as one of the greats if all they had

01:33:27.420 | is one or two amazing fights?

01:33:30.140 | I'll tell you, like, and amazing could be

01:33:35.100 | a lot of different definitions.

01:33:36.420 | It could be just a war.

01:33:37.820 | Like, they never really reached

01:33:39.500 | the highest of excellences of domination,

01:33:41.900 | but they've, like, we had this discussion

01:33:45.420 | about Kyle Bokniak, right?

01:33:47.620 | - Yep.

01:33:49.580 | - To me, that's a perfect example.

01:33:50.860 | He had this famous fight against Zabit Magomedsharipov

01:33:55.860 | where on one side you have an Anderson Silva type of fighter

01:34:04.020 | and Zabit, like, just a very good striker.

01:34:07.140 | And then there's, like, the warrior on the Kyle side.

01:34:13.340 | And just the fight,

01:34:14.660 | they created something special together.

01:34:16.380 | It was a fight of the night, whatever,

01:34:17.620 | but that fight was special on that night

01:34:22.620 | because the two dance partners.

01:34:25.860 | - You can have a great performance

01:34:27.700 | without being a great fighter.

01:34:28.900 | Not saying neither of those guys is a great fighter,

01:34:30.660 | but to answer your first question,

01:34:32.380 | I think that having one or two great performances

01:34:36.220 | does not necessarily mean that you are great.

01:34:38.380 | I need a larger sample size.

01:34:39.900 | I have no idea what that is.

01:34:41.740 | I don't have any idea what that is.

01:34:42.820 | And also,

01:34:44.140 | (clears throat)

01:34:46.820 | how much weight does toughness have

01:34:52.260 | when you're thinking about the criteria

01:34:53.980 | when you define a great fighter?

01:34:56.420 | That's a good question.

01:34:59.020 | And I don't have the answer to it.

01:35:00.780 | - I admire the underdog that rises to the occasion

01:35:03.260 | through brute force.

01:35:04.500 | They didn't bring the skillset to the table

01:35:07.140 | that perhaps some of the greats have,

01:35:09.660 | but they rose to the occasion.

01:35:12.300 | I mean, there's something about that.

01:35:13.780 | - There's something about that.

01:35:14.620 | And so now we're more talking about the internal attributes

01:35:18.940 | as opposed to the external physical attributes.

01:35:21.300 | And those are the things I think that you cannot teach.

01:35:25.340 | Those things, you come in the door

01:35:27.660 | and you either have that or you don't.

01:35:28.860 | I think, and we talk about this all the time,

01:35:30.980 | and this is one of the things

01:35:31.940 | where my mind changes regularly.

01:35:34.180 | Like on what makes a fighter, is it born or is it bred?

01:35:37.800 | And this week I'm of the opinion that it's in you

01:35:42.800 | and maybe it's in you and you suppress it

01:35:44.520 | and people can tease it out of you,

01:35:46.180 | but I don't think you can make someone

01:35:48.080 | who doesn't have that seed in there.

01:35:50.000 | I don't think you can turn them into that great warrior

01:35:53.040 | with that level of grit and mental toughness.

01:35:56.320 | Now, when that fight, when Kyle fought Zabit,

01:36:00.080 | it's a unique situation for both guys.

01:36:02.200 | It was kind of a later replacement fight for Kyle.

01:36:06.320 | Zabit's star was on the rise

01:36:08.280 | and Kyle put the blueprint out there on how to beat Zabit.

01:36:11.180 | - Which is?

01:36:13.480 | - Which is pressure him

01:36:14.800 | and try and drag him into the late rounds.

01:36:16.200 | You notice that later on when Calvin Cater fought him,

01:36:19.600 | they wouldn't give him five rounds.

01:36:21.800 | They wanted five rounds and Zabit's camp,

01:36:23.760 | from what I understand,

01:36:24.580 | would not agree to the five round fight.

01:36:26.360 | - Well, he didn't look, right,

01:36:28.420 | so with Kyle it was a three round fight.

01:36:30.680 | - It's a three round fight.

01:36:31.520 | - And what did, it went to decision?

01:36:33.960 | - It went to decision.

01:36:34.800 | Zabit won the decision, clearly,

01:36:36.280 | which is-- - Did Kyle have a shot

01:36:37.760 | at winning the third round?

01:36:39.440 | - I don't remember the exact score,

01:36:40.720 | but Kyle could've won the third round

01:36:43.160 | had he done a couple things differently,

01:36:46.300 | but I do believe in the fourth round,

01:36:48.540 | I think Kyle would've won a fourth round

01:36:50.060 | and I think maybe even won the fight

01:36:52.080 | if there would've been a fifth round.

01:36:53.560 | - And he was pressing forward,

01:36:55.300 | perhaps in a funny way,

01:36:59.040 | now you could tell me I'm wrong,

01:37:00.480 | but it felt like he wasn't emphasizing head movement

01:37:04.120 | at that point.

01:37:04.960 | He went full Mike Tyson.

01:37:05.920 | - There was a point at which,

01:37:07.640 | so it's funny that you say that.

01:37:09.200 | - Which is a contradiction, actually, because--

01:37:11.320 | - Mike Tyson had great head movement.

01:37:12.960 | - I actually don't know exactly what I mean,

01:37:16.020 | because he was in the pocket,

01:37:17.800 | I think he was trying to do the movement,

01:37:19.160 | he was just in the pocket and pressing forward,

01:37:21.280 | and the fuck you attitude of just not--

01:37:23.800 | - That was a little bit later

01:37:24.680 | when Zabit's back was towards the cage.

01:37:26.640 | - Towards the end of the round.

01:37:28.480 | - We get that fight,

01:37:30.560 | and I said to Kyle, I was like,

01:37:32.520 | "Look, this kid has been training martial arts

01:37:34.520 | "since he was three years old.

01:37:36.120 | "There's not an area where you're gonna out-technique him,

01:37:39.040 | "and so we've gotta now channel some of that grit

01:37:41.300 | "that we know you have.

01:37:42.300 | "This is an opportunity to showcase it."

01:37:44.480 | And I don't know how long I did it for,

01:37:46.400 | 'cause Kyle's much shorter than Zabit.

01:37:49.340 | So for a good long while,

01:37:50.800 | while we were training for Zabit,

01:37:52.000 | I didn't even say anything,

01:37:53.360 | and I just had clips of Mike Tyson training

01:37:55.760 | on the TV in the gym, and the head movement,

01:37:58.240 | and I didn't even mention it.

01:37:59.520 | And then we started to get into it,

01:38:01.680 | and talk about getting inside the length

01:38:03.960 | of the longer fighter, and things like that.

01:38:06.600 | And we kind of, which, when some people train MMA,

01:38:09.760 | they say, "Okay, this guy's a really good wrestler.

01:38:12.700 | "Let's think about avoiding the wrestling,

01:38:15.400 | "or being a better wrestler."

01:38:17.000 | And I think that when the difference in skill is so great,

01:38:21.260 | those are both the wrong answer.

01:38:22.860 | If a guy who's a really good wrestler

01:38:25.400 | wants to take you down,

01:38:26.280 | and you don't have a lot of wrestling experience,

01:38:27.600 | he's probably gonna get you down

01:38:28.760 | if he's got a good coach, right?

01:38:30.640 | So you have to deal with that.

01:38:32.640 | To then say, "I'm gonna then learn in eight weeks

01:38:35.440 | "how to wrestle better than a guy

01:38:36.600 | "who's been wrestling since he was eight years old,"

01:38:38.280 | is also a bad idea.

01:38:39.520 | So what we concentrated on for that camp,

01:38:41.360 | and it worked beautifully,

01:38:42.520 | was not getting caught in chain wrestling.

01:38:45.960 | These are the takedowns you're gonna get caught with.

01:38:48.120 | This is how to not get caught with the next step

01:38:50.520 | while you're defending takedown one.

01:38:52.680 | 'Cause it's the chain of techniques

01:38:54.240 | that are gonna get you fucked, right?

01:38:56.200 | So we did a ton of work on get-ups,

01:38:58.920 | and breaking the hands from the various takedowns.

01:39:01.840 | It was a while ago now,

01:39:02.680 | so I don't remember exactly the techniques we worked on.

01:39:05.320 | But we concentrated on defend the first takedown

01:39:08.640 | and stay out of the chain.

01:39:10.280 | Don't get chained into a bunch of wrestling techniques,

01:39:12.760 | 'cause you will be out-wrestled.

01:39:15.080 | And that was really successful.

01:39:16.120 | And then the third round, Sabit was tired.

01:39:18.800 | - He was tired.

01:39:20.800 | - Sabit got tired.

01:39:21.640 | He cuts a tremendous amount of weight.

01:39:24.040 | I can't see him staying at 145 forever

01:39:26.340 | when they start giving him five-round fights.

01:39:28.160 | I don't even know if he's had a five-round fight yet.

01:39:29.680 | He may have,

01:39:30.520 | but I can't see him staying down there.

01:39:33.000 | The guy's like 6'1".

01:39:35.120 | Guys, he's a giant of a guy.

01:39:37.000 | So Kyle pressed forward there,

01:39:39.640 | and he said he felt that there was no power left

01:39:42.480 | in Sabit's hands,

01:39:43.320 | and so he felt fine.

01:39:44.920 | And I think part of it was he fed off the crowd

01:39:47.200 | as he moved forward,

01:39:48.680 | and saw that he wasn't taking a lot of damage,

01:39:53.680 | like the punches weren't staying him.

01:39:56.320 | He started walking right through him.

01:39:58.660 | - It goes to your question of what makes a fighter.

01:40:01.160 | Was him walking forward like that

01:40:05.200 | something that you're born with,

01:40:07.920 | or is that something you were training?

01:40:09.520 | Is that the Mike Tyson on TV?

01:40:11.360 | - He's born with that.

01:40:12.700 | Kyle is born with that.

01:40:14.220 | And the crowd, I've been in a lot--

01:40:16.600 | - Was it in Boston?

01:40:17.480 | - No, it was in New York.

01:40:18.320 | It was in Brooklyn.

01:40:19.160 | I've been in a lot of arenas

01:40:20.340 | for a lot of different sporting events.

01:40:21.680 | That's one of the loudest things I've ever heard

01:40:23.780 | when he did that.

01:40:24.620 | I was going crazy.

01:40:26.120 | And you ask about that being taught or not.

01:40:29.860 | Kyle is so much like that

01:40:31.580 | that I have to try and tease some of that out of him

01:40:33.780 | to pull it back.

01:40:35.020 | Because he's also so very technical when he wants to be

01:40:39.780 | that the emotion and the fun of it

01:40:42.260 | gets in the way of his technique,

01:40:44.020 | and probably has cost him a couple of wins.

01:40:47.580 | And so that's one of the things

01:40:48.420 | we work on with him right now,

01:40:49.380 | is staying within yourself, being a professional,

01:40:52.340 | taking your time to download the information in round one,

01:40:55.020 | and then starting your fight in round two.

01:40:56.840 | - But the tension between those two things

01:40:58.480 | is what makes, what on that day created one of the,

01:41:02.780 | in my opinion, one of the greatest fights I've ever seen.

01:41:06.760 | Joe Rogan agrees.

01:41:07.920 | - Yeah, it's one of the greatest fights

01:41:09.200 | I've certainly ever seen.

01:41:10.640 | - So it's funny that you as a coach,

01:41:13.960 | I can see the frustration of throwing away

01:41:18.400 | some of the strategy kind of thing.

01:41:20.640 | Like you seeing, being not happy

01:41:23.240 | that there could be things that he could have done

01:41:25.140 | to win the fight?

01:41:26.100 | - It's in retrospect.

01:41:26.980 | I think that at that time,

01:41:28.580 | we were playing with incredible house money.

01:41:30.820 | Like Kyle was a gigantic underdog in that fight.

01:41:33.220 | Zabit was unstoppable.

01:41:34.420 | I think people were probably picking him

01:41:35.900 | to finish the fight in round one.

01:41:37.260 | I think at that point,

01:41:38.100 | no one had ever gone the distance with Zabit.

01:41:40.140 | And no one certainly had put that kind of performance

01:41:43.380 | together, and I think Kyle put the blueprint out there.

01:41:47.340 | And in retrospect, when I look at the last round,

01:41:51.400 | yeah, there were things

01:41:52.240 | that could have been done differently,

01:41:53.540 | but we're playing with house money at that point.

01:41:55.220 | Like, I mean, let it fly.

01:41:56.980 | You get to a point where you've got it,

01:41:59.140 | you're down three rounds and there's 20 seconds left.

01:42:01.580 | You got to move all your chips to the center of the table

01:42:03.500 | and see what happens.

01:42:05.580 | - Do you remember what Joe Rogan said about it?

01:42:07.540 | I remember like he got won over.

01:42:09.700 | I think I have trouble remembering

01:42:12.020 | 'cause offline we talked about that fight

01:42:13.580 | and he's exceptionally impressed by it.

01:42:15.500 | I mean, Joe's from Boston.

01:42:17.500 | I mean, there's a story there.

01:42:20.900 | - Okay.

01:42:21.820 | - It sucks not, you naturally want to romanticize,

01:42:25.340 | like there's a Rocky versus like,

01:42:28.500 | there's a Rocky IV, a Draga.

01:42:30.420 | I mean, similar, I suppose, kind of chemistry.

01:42:34.480 | Kyle's style represents the American ideal, right?

01:42:40.620 | The spirit.

01:42:41.440 | - Yeah, I mean, he's from Gloucester.

01:42:42.580 | It's like you could have dragged him off the docks

01:42:45.780 | three hours before the fight and said,

01:42:47.540 | "Hey, you want to go fight?"

01:42:48.500 | And he would have said yes.

01:42:50.340 | - Oh man, that was a special fight.

01:42:51.980 | But that's as per discussion

01:42:53.820 | of like greatest fighters of all time.

01:42:55.580 | I tend to believe that that fight is more special

01:42:59.620 | than the championship belt defenses by George St. Pierre.

01:43:04.620 | You know, there's something to that.

01:43:06.340 | It's like Rocky I is more special than like Rocky III.

01:43:11.340 | Right, so like it's the underdog or whatever,

01:43:19.780 | like the dance partners that go into war

01:43:21.900 | and like that moment, I mean, it's bigger.

01:43:24.540 | It's bigger than any individual fighter.

01:43:26.940 | They create that.

01:43:28.020 | And that, I know it's not perhaps good for a career.

01:43:32.020 | It's not good for like in terms of money,

01:43:34.260 | in terms of longevity, in terms of all those kinds of things,

01:43:36.300 | but that's a special moment in the history of fighting

01:43:39.020 | that you both created.

01:43:40.140 | - I can remember like right after,

01:43:42.580 | like there was so much excitement in the air

01:43:45.060 | during the third round.

01:43:46.160 | And I remember being in the corner

01:43:47.460 | and like I was so excited at the end of it

01:43:50.660 | that I had forgotten what happened in the other two rounds.

01:43:53.060 | I didn't even know.

01:43:53.900 | And I looked to Sean, one of the other corner men,

01:43:56.620 | and I think I said to him, "Did we win?"

01:43:58.860 | When you rewatch the fight,

01:44:00.220 | clearly we didn't win the fight.

01:44:01.380 | I mean, we lost the other rounds,

01:44:02.500 | but I got so caught up in that moment.

01:44:05.020 | And then I just remember like,

01:44:07.040 | I was so in awe of his performance

01:44:10.380 | that like I forgot what was going on.

01:44:12.380 | And it's so hard to not be a fan at that moment

01:44:16.060 | and to stay within yourself and try and like coach,

01:44:18.340 | but then what the fuck you even coaching at that point?

01:44:20.660 | It's like, we're rumbling, we got 30 seconds,

01:44:22.660 | we're trying to win here.

01:44:23.500 | And I remember like the performance itself,

01:44:26.580 | I'm not a fan of moral victories,

01:44:28.040 | but if ever there was gonna be one, that was one.

01:44:30.140 | And when the fight was over and I grabbed Kyle,

01:44:32.140 | like they hadn't even been to the center of the cage yet.

01:44:35.500 | And I just hugged him and I said, "You're my fucking hero."

01:44:38.440 | And I remember being very emotional about that,

01:44:41.420 | that I was able to be a part of that.

01:44:43.260 | - It feels wrong to say,

01:44:44.460 | but I kind of avoided saying it,

01:44:46.860 | but if I'm being honest with my feelings,

01:44:49.740 | this is a safe space for feelings.

01:44:52.380 | Is I think it was the greatest

01:44:55.620 | mixed martial arts fight I've ever seen.

01:44:59.180 | And I don't think I'm being biased.

01:45:00.760 | I was honestly thinking like, am I being biased?

01:45:02.840 | I honestly don't think so.

01:45:04.980 | I think that was the greatest fight.

01:45:06.380 | Like if you wanna rank fights I've ever seen,

01:45:08.300 | I think to me that was the greatest fight I've ever seen.

01:45:10.780 | - It certainly was one of the greatest displays

01:45:13.800 | of like just dogged effort from an underdog

01:45:17.900 | who was out experienced and probably outsized.

01:45:22.500 | But I mean, like you're just, Kyle's one of those kids

01:45:26.180 | you're never gonna tell him he's out of a fight.

01:45:27.980 | He has something you can't teach.

01:45:29.900 | And I've seen tons of people with more physical attributes

01:45:34.900 | and they're just mental midgets

01:45:36.820 | and they got a million dollar body and a 50 cent heart.

01:45:39.700 | And Kyle is not that.

01:45:42.220 | And you can't teach it no matter what you do.

01:45:44.320 | But that was, I would say like my career in combat sports

01:45:49.080 | which spans, if you wanna go all the way back

01:45:51.280 | to like wrestling, like that was one of probably

01:45:53.980 | the greatest experiences I've been a part of.

01:45:56.400 | It's a bittersweet sport.

01:45:58.960 | She's a fickle mistress.

01:46:00.240 | - Yeah, I mean, the tragic aspect of that is

01:46:06.080 | like, I guess Kyle lost, right?

01:46:10.580 | So like, if you look at the record

01:46:12.560 | and all the kind of things, perhaps like you look

01:46:16.320 | at the career, maybe like as a financial,

01:46:20.340 | from a financial perspective that perhaps is not

01:46:24.480 | the greatest thing for Kyle's career

01:46:28.360 | or in the history of the UFC, perhaps it's not,

01:46:33.360 | you know, like maybe many people didn't even watch

01:46:37.440 | that fight, but it was a special moment

01:46:39.680 | that stands in the history.

01:46:40.860 | There's not many of these in the history of fighting.

01:46:44.900 | - But at the end of the day, when you look

01:46:46.260 | at someone's career in the UFC, like financially,

01:46:51.100 | there's a handful of people that make real money.

01:46:54.840 | Everybody else makes nothing.

01:46:56.540 | There's a handful of people that make real money.

01:46:58.700 | So did that loss cost him in the near term?

01:47:02.420 | Sure, but when you look back on your life,

01:47:04.200 | you're not gonna look back on that loss

01:47:05.580 | as something that derailed my life financially

01:47:07.700 | and I never recovered from it.

01:47:08.860 | That's not gonna happen.

01:47:10.540 | Like the sad thing is, is unless you were a champion

01:47:13.140 | and you know, most people are gonna be forgotten

01:47:15.540 | right after they're gone.

01:47:16.920 | Most people will be forgotten.

01:47:18.180 | And if you're not forgotten, certainly your accolades

01:47:21.340 | are gonna be misrepresented.

01:47:22.460 | Either they're gonna be inflated or diminished

01:47:24.500 | one way or the other.

01:47:25.320 | So looking back on it, it's just so hard to quantify that,

01:47:30.320 | but it's an experience and like when you're in that moment

01:47:34.500 | and you're one of the people like intimately involved in it,

01:47:38.060 | like the value of that experience

01:47:40.380 | supersedes any financial gain.

01:47:42.440 | - Where would you put Khabib in the discussion

01:47:47.620 | of the greatest of all time?

01:47:48.580 | So you recently, we worked together,

01:47:50.660 | we watched the fight of him and Justin Gaethje

01:47:55.660 | and Khabib retired.

01:47:58.700 | Would you put him up there as one of the greatest

01:48:02.100 | or did he never truly find his foil

01:48:05.300 | that like the great warrior that challenged him?

01:48:08.460 | And maybe do you think he's fully retired now?

01:48:13.460 | - To answer the question about being fully retired,

01:48:15.580 | I don't have any idea.

01:48:16.620 | I can't for a second pretend to think that I understand

01:48:21.620 | the way that people from that part of the world think

01:48:24.700 | and respect their family and things like that.

01:48:26.900 | To an American who says, "Oh, I promised my mom

01:48:28.900 | "I wouldn't do it."

01:48:29.740 | I mean, I promised my mom I wouldn't do a lot of things.

01:48:31.660 | I went right out the fucking back door and did them.

01:48:33.940 | But I think that that means something different

01:48:36.020 | to people in different parts of the world.

01:48:37.940 | So I have no idea what kind of weight that carries.

01:48:41.260 | So I can't answer that.

01:48:42.780 | I can say a lot of times when people think

01:48:45.980 | about great fighters, they think about the aspects

01:48:48.820 | that make up MMA.

01:48:50.540 | Like they think of MMA as a pie

01:48:52.880 | and there are all these different pieces

01:48:54.100 | that make up the pie.

01:48:56.300 | And how good is this piece?

01:48:57.340 | And how good is this piece?

01:48:58.180 | And how good is this piece?

01:48:59.780 | When the fact of the matter is,

01:49:02.560 | you only need one really, really, really good piece

01:49:05.280 | and the other pieces are complimentary pieces

01:49:07.320 | to get you to where you're the strongest.

01:49:10.600 | And if you wanna tell me that Khabib's not

01:49:13.400 | the greatest MMA fighter because he doesn't have

01:49:16.160 | really slick striking, you can make that argument.

01:49:19.200 | But what I can tell you is Khabib has good enough striking

01:49:22.160 | to get him to his grappling where he is clearly

01:49:24.840 | the best guy at 155 they've ever seen.

01:49:27.360 | So does that make him the greatest fighter

01:49:29.120 | in that division or not?

01:49:31.960 | To your point about the foil,

01:49:33.520 | they wanted Conor to be his foil

01:49:35.360 | and he just manhandled them.

01:49:37.080 | I mean, they wanted that to happen.

01:49:39.280 | It did not happen.

01:49:40.320 | So--

01:49:41.140 | - Well, there's a kind of argument to be made

01:49:43.360 | which we kind of, you get haters in this argument.

01:49:48.000 | And you're gonna be one of the haters

01:49:50.160 | because I know your, how should I put it,

01:49:53.320 | lack of admiration for Conor McGregor.

01:49:59.000 | But what is it, football is a game of inches?

01:50:03.600 | There's a sense where,

01:50:05.480 | that Conor, there's an argument to be made

01:50:10.360 | that Conor wasn't exactly dominated.

01:50:13.040 | That he ended up being dominant,

01:50:14.240 | meaning, let me phrase it differently,

01:50:16.680 | is there's a lot of points in the fight

01:50:20.280 | that it could have, a different trajectory

01:50:23.760 | could have happened.

01:50:24.580 | So he wasn't so far from having a chance

01:50:27.480 | at winning that fight.

01:50:28.600 | It's just the end, you can focus--

01:50:31.240 | - Those are the most important moments at the end.

01:50:34.040 | You've lost the most important moments.

01:50:35.760 | - Right, but the road less taken,

01:50:37.960 | it could have been, if he didn't lose

01:50:40.720 | those very important moments, he had a chance.

01:50:43.520 | So I'm saying out of all the people that could be fought,

01:50:46.720 | it's arguable that Conor was up there

01:50:49.080 | of the people that had a chance.

01:50:51.080 | - Let me say this first.

01:50:52.640 | - I'm gonna get so much heat for this.

01:50:56.440 | - I do love Khabib, I'm a huge Khabib fan

01:50:59.120 | because I'm a grappler first and foremost.

01:51:01.200 | - Me too, because I'm also Russian.

01:51:03.040 | I love Khabib, calm down.

01:51:04.640 | (laughing)

01:51:05.480 | Okay.

01:51:06.320 | - But when Conor came on the scene,

01:51:08.800 | I loved Conor because I'm an Irish American

01:51:10.840 | and I wanna support him and things like that.

01:51:12.800 | And he was good fun.

01:51:14.560 | He got to be, for my personal taste,

01:51:17.960 | he got to be too much.

01:51:19.100 | Of all the people Khabib has fought,

01:51:22.240 | I would never fight Conor again if I were him.

01:51:25.440 | And here's why, and I said this about the Diaz fight.

01:51:28.240 | Nate Diaz, who was one of my favorite fighters,

01:51:32.240 | has fought the exact same fight for 12 years.

01:51:34.720 | Conor will switch something up to give himself an edge.

01:51:37.560 | And I believe that Conor would figure something out

01:51:41.440 | in fight number two, I think,

01:51:43.800 | but I also thought that Gagey would give Khabib problems

01:51:46.440 | where it wouldn't be a matter of,

01:51:48.320 | I'm gonna out-wrestle Khabib

01:51:49.800 | or become better at defending his wrestling takedowns.

01:51:54.040 | Conor would have figured out a way to not get wrestled,

01:51:56.560 | I feel like.

01:51:57.400 | He's constantly changing, he's constantly evolving.

01:52:00.440 | And whether or not people realize it or not,

01:52:02.520 | I think Conor's one of the better overall athletes in MMA,

01:52:05.480 | just from looking at his body and his movement

01:52:07.800 | and the way he's shaped.

01:52:08.800 | He's got a very tiny waist,

01:52:10.240 | he's got really pronounced glutes and shoulders.

01:52:13.080 | And I think he's for a real athlete,

01:52:15.400 | whereas a lot of guys in MMA are not for real athletes.

01:52:17.540 | They're just good at one of the things that makes up MMA.

01:52:20.400 | I understand what you're saying about

01:52:23.720 | if this happened, if that happened,

01:52:25.560 | but I mean, you could say that

01:52:26.480 | about every single combat sports event ever.

01:52:29.680 | If Spinks' hook landed on Tyson,

01:52:32.280 | maybe that fight didn't end the way that it did.

01:52:34.740 | But you know what?

01:52:35.820 | It didn't.

01:52:36.940 | - You're absolutely right.

01:52:37.800 | But if we could talk about just Conor McGregor for a second.

01:52:41.340 | I can't wait to get your fan mail or hate mail.

01:52:46.340 | Speak to the innovation of Conor.

01:52:50.400 | I don't hear very many people making this argument,

01:52:53.260 | but is it possible to make an argument

01:52:56.360 | that Conor McGregor is one of the greatest fighters

01:52:58.680 | of all time?

01:53:00.320 | - It's an interesting argument.

01:53:01.480 | And the only problem with the argument

01:53:03.840 | is there's so much emotion on either side.

01:53:06.020 | - Yeah, I had a conversation, sorry to interrupt,

01:53:08.280 | with Yaron Brook, who's a philosopher, objectivist,

01:53:13.280 | which is the philosophy of Ayn Rand.

01:53:18.860 | And the amount of emotion around that particular human

01:53:22.760 | is fascinating to me.

01:53:23.720 | It's similar to the amount of emotion around Donald Trump.

01:53:27.320 | You can think of different personalities, maybe Elon Musk.

01:53:30.120 | - Those are the people that aren't willing

01:53:31.240 | to have their mind changed.

01:53:32.280 | They're too emotionally attached to the argument.

01:53:34.640 | - Yeah, but it's weird that why do we,

01:53:37.400 | why some people inspire so much emotion and others don't.

01:53:42.040 | But Conor McGregor, I feel like nobody's able

01:53:46.040 | to have a calm fight analysis of the guy.

01:53:51.040 | Look, to me, as just a fan of martial arts,

01:53:57.200 | I study judo.

01:53:58.800 | I love watching just hours of Olympic judo

01:54:02.340 | and appreciating the art form.

01:54:04.680 | I forget the humans involved.

01:54:06.960 | Teddy Renner, who's a heavyweight,

01:54:10.160 | probably the most dominant heavyweight

01:54:11.920 | in the history of judo, just studying his gripping,

01:54:14.600 | just the art of it.

01:54:16.160 | And who cares if there's shit talking?

01:54:18.320 | Like to me, I put all of that aside

01:54:21.840 | and just look at the art.

01:54:23.440 | And like what I really appreciate about Conor McGregor

01:54:27.840 | is his innovation, like of movement,

01:54:32.840 | of maybe it's romanticized, maybe you can correct me.

01:54:36.960 | I'm just a Cheeto eating fan of mixed martial arts.

01:54:41.600 | But I seem to detect more innovation

01:54:45.320 | than almost any other fighter

01:54:47.520 | that I've paid attention to in Conor McGregor.

01:54:51.600 | - I think first, I'll answer in two parts.

01:54:54.160 | I think, well, I'm not gonna answer the first part.

01:54:56.480 | It's just a comment 'cause you didn't ask the question.

01:54:58.680 | - What was the question?

01:54:59.520 | I don't even remember.

01:55:00.720 | - It's about how Conor McGregor fans are very emotional

01:55:04.680 | and Conor McGregor detractors are very emotional.

01:55:07.200 | I think fans become very emotional.

01:55:09.000 | They become cheerleaders of someone like Conor McGregor

01:55:11.280 | or Donald Trump because they see that person

01:55:13.800 | exhibiting the qualities that they themselves lack.

01:55:16.720 | And so they become cheerleaders for that.

01:55:18.520 | And I think that for the most part,

01:55:20.800 | people who are detractors of Conor McGregor's,

01:55:23.360 | they're not really Conor McGregor detractors.

01:55:25.680 | They're detractors of Conor's supporters.

01:55:28.300 | There's a beef that they have

01:55:29.620 | with the people in that bucket.

01:55:31.200 | It's not really a problem with Conor.

01:55:33.200 | - And that applies probably in our current political climate

01:55:37.240 | with Donald Trump with the left and the right.

01:55:39.400 | It's more about like they actually don't like

01:55:44.320 | on the other, the caricature, the most extreme versions

01:55:47.400 | of what they see in the supporters of the other side.

01:55:50.360 | Yeah, that's a good point.

01:55:51.200 | But I think the more interesting thing

01:55:52.440 | is the fighter himself.

01:55:53.520 | So let's put the supporters aside.

01:55:55.640 | - I would say that what some people know

01:55:59.600 | and some people don't know is that Conor's base is in karate

01:56:02.640 | and the karate style of Conor McGregor,

01:56:06.520 | Stephen Thompson, of Leota Machida,

01:56:10.600 | that type of distance management,

01:56:12.640 | a lot of times we think as martial artists,

01:56:14.540 | we think that the sport version of the art

01:56:17.460 | we've chosen to pursue somehow taints the authenticity

01:56:21.080 | and the effectiveness of it.

01:56:24.040 | But point karate is what led to that in and out

01:56:26.560 | distance management style of Conor,

01:56:28.960 | of Leota and of Stephen Thompson.

01:56:31.120 | They all kind of use it a little bit differently,

01:56:33.420 | but they use it very effectively, all three of them.

01:56:36.280 | And that comes from a world of trying to kind of like

01:56:41.200 | step in, land contact on you from my point,

01:56:43.880 | and then get back out before you can counter strike me.

01:56:47.000 | Right, and that's where that comes from.

01:56:49.040 | Conor's blessed to have longer arms

01:56:52.400 | than someone his height probably normally has.

01:56:54.880 | And his movement is just so fluid.

01:56:57.720 | He's so athletic with the hinges of his body,

01:57:01.580 | the knees and the hips and the swivel of his body,

01:57:04.840 | which is also the hips and the shoulders.

01:57:06.880 | His movement, his distance,

01:57:09.800 | and the way he sets people up for the straight left hand

01:57:12.760 | while you're circling away from it,

01:57:14.240 | and he can still land it,

01:57:15.160 | which is what he did to Chad Mendes.

01:57:17.080 | Hit him with a straight left

01:57:18.040 | while he was circling away from it.

01:57:20.140 | That is something that is very beautiful to watch.

01:57:24.120 | And sometimes people see the kicks

01:57:27.160 | and they see all the flashy snap kicks and the sidekicks.

01:57:30.780 | All that stuff is doing

01:57:32.120 | is setting people up for the left hand.

01:57:34.200 | It's all it's doing.

01:57:35.360 | You're corralling people, you're funneling people,

01:57:37.200 | or you're leading the dance,

01:57:38.480 | and you're bringing them to a spot

01:57:39.660 | where you know you can land that left hand.

01:57:41.800 | And his ability to do that is masterful.

01:57:45.840 | People constantly shit on his ability to grapple

01:57:48.880 | because a couple of his losses have been to jujitsu guys

01:57:52.140 | or grapplers, but they've been to really good guys.

01:57:55.440 | Anyone who's gonna sit here and tell me

01:57:56.820 | Conor McGregor's not a good grappler, go grapple him.

01:58:00.260 | Let me see you grapple him.

01:58:02.080 | To that point, I'll also say a lot of people

01:58:05.080 | will use Conor McGregor's X-guard sweep on Nate Diaz

01:58:08.440 | as evidence to his high level grappling in that fight,

01:58:11.560 | to which I would also counter.

01:58:13.500 | Nate Diaz didn't fight that off

01:58:14.840 | because he knew he was so much better at jujitsu

01:58:16.860 | off the bottom that he didn't even care if he got swept.

01:58:19.680 | So is Conor McGregor innovative?

01:58:21.880 | Absolutely.

01:58:22.740 | Is he one of the best fighters ever?

01:58:25.560 | It's tough to say because he's such a cash cow

01:58:27.600 | that he was fed people.

01:58:28.960 | I firmly believe no one who put that Conor McGregor-Khabib

01:58:33.840 | fight together thought Khabib would win.

01:58:36.640 | - Wow.

01:58:38.200 | I remember, so at that time, it was not completely clear

01:58:42.960 | there was a myth of the great Khabib.

01:58:45.240 | It wasn't completely clear how good is he really.

01:58:48.440 | So that's interesting.

01:58:49.840 | And it was unclear how good is Conor also.

01:58:55.520 | 'Cause I think to me, maybe part of my admiration

01:58:59.360 | of Conor McGregor is rooted in the fact

01:59:01.800 | that I thought there's no way he beats Jose Aldo.

01:59:05.360 | And I thought there's definitely no way he beats Eddie Alvarez.

01:59:09.200 | And so when he did, I was like,

01:59:13.200 | I had to, my brain was like, there's something broken.

01:59:18.080 | It was shut down on Windows, like froze.

01:59:20.240 | We have to rethink this.

01:59:21.760 | Like, this is a special human.

01:59:23.400 | Now, people who argue he's not even in the running

01:59:25.800 | of like top 20 is, you know,

01:59:28.360 | if you look at the number of defenses, for example,

01:59:30.400 | of his belt that he had, very, very little.

01:59:32.680 | But like, to me, I'm one of those people

01:59:34.600 | is back to our discussion of like,

01:59:36.560 | do moments make great fighters?

01:59:38.360 | That I think just being able to beat Jose Aldo,

01:59:41.800 | I would argue in his prime, some people might disagree,

01:59:44.920 | in this, in a way where he like figures out the puzzle,

01:59:51.840 | gets in his head, the entirety of the picture.

01:59:53.960 | And then to be, I mean, Eddie Alvarez,

01:59:57.600 | would he be considered a really strong wrestler?

02:00:00.480 | Like, or not strong wrestler, strong striker and wrestler,

02:00:05.480 | the whole combination of it.

02:00:06.800 | And also, what's the other wrestler he fought?

02:00:09.400 | - Chad Mendes. - Chad Mendes.

02:00:10.720 | - So let me comment on all those, if I may.

02:00:13.560 | So I was at the Chad Mendes fight live.

02:00:15.400 | - Yeah.

02:00:16.240 | - And there was a Jiu-Jitsu tournament, we're out in Vegas.

02:00:18.880 | And so me and my best friend came out

02:00:20.240 | and we got some tickets.

02:00:21.480 | That night was supposed to be the first Aldo fight.

02:00:24.360 | Aldo got hurt, like right after I bought the tickets.

02:00:27.340 | They pulled Chad Mendes in,

02:00:28.760 | he was a little bit out of shape, whatever.

02:00:30.440 | You still gotta fight the fight.

02:00:32.400 | But I don't wanna use that fight

02:00:36.320 | as evidence to Conor's greatness,

02:00:37.840 | because they pulled Chad Mendes in,

02:00:39.760 | he was like hunting and drinking beers in the woods,

02:00:41.920 | and was a little out of shape.

02:00:43.520 | But if you wanna talk about greatness

02:00:45.480 | like that surpasses your in-ring accomplishments,

02:00:50.880 | I was in the stands that night,

02:00:52.800 | and the people that came from Ireland

02:00:56.480 | to see Conor fight that night,

02:00:58.120 | single-handedly set the market for hotel room prices

02:01:02.000 | and airline tickets to Vegas that weekend.

02:01:05.200 | These motherfuckers were all dressed like Conor

02:01:08.040 | in the stands.

02:01:08.880 | - Yeah. - They had wool suits on

02:01:10.600 | and big beards and the whole thing.

02:01:12.240 | I mean, they were probably wearing pocket watches.

02:01:14.560 | I never saw more people trying to be someone else.

02:01:19.120 | Never saw more people try to be someone else.

02:01:21.600 | I mean, there's a level of,

02:01:23.120 | is there a level of greatness in that?

02:01:24.600 | I mean, I don't know how to parse all that out.

02:01:26.720 | - You're somebody who doesn't admire that.

02:01:28.440 | I love that in the following sense.

02:01:30.840 | I think that people don't seem to hold this belief at all,

02:01:34.560 | but to me, fighting is not just,

02:01:36.980 | this isn't like a quiet street fight that nobody watches.

02:01:42.600 | This is also a spectacle.

02:01:43.840 | This is also a story.

02:01:45.600 | There's a professional wrestling element to this.

02:01:48.880 | This is not, you think it's just about fighting.

02:01:51.560 | If it was just about fighting, you wouldn't,

02:01:54.240 | I mean, there's a story to it, I guess,

02:01:56.760 | is what I'm trying to get to. - Yeah, you're right.

02:01:58.600 | - And greatness has to incorporate that.

02:02:01.280 | People that criticize, again, I might be wrong on this,

02:02:04.320 | but I honestly think that Conor McGregor,

02:02:07.600 | not nearly as much as Khabib,

02:02:10.080 | but he's a true martial artist.

02:02:13.480 | - I believe that. - I think he respects

02:02:15.040 | his opponents despite the talk.

02:02:17.600 | Maybe I'm misreading it,

02:02:19.240 | but it feels like he is a storyteller,

02:02:22.280 | like a Chael Sonnen type of,

02:02:25.120 | he's constructed this image to play the story.

02:02:29.080 | Just the way he acts after the fight,

02:02:31.160 | the honor he shows to his opponents.

02:02:33.520 | There's a real martial artist in there,

02:02:36.000 | and to dismiss the fact that

02:02:37.720 | the story of the fight is part of it,

02:02:42.600 | because he doesn't just shit talk.

02:02:44.360 | This is what people don't seem to understand.

02:02:46.520 | He's good at shit talking.

02:02:48.320 | - Very good, and I'm with you

02:02:50.080 | on basically everything you said.

02:02:52.440 | I think that there's greatness to that,

02:02:55.080 | and I think that he understands how to sell a fight,

02:02:57.960 | and I think

02:02:59.840 | what he did to Jose Aldo by getting in his head

02:03:05.680 | helped him win that fight.

02:03:07.000 | He insulted Jose Aldo and his country so much

02:03:12.200 | that he knew Aldo was gonna come forward

02:03:14.400 | right into that left hook.

02:03:15.720 | Was that fight in Brazil, by the way?

02:03:17.440 | Do you remember?

02:03:18.280 | - I don't recall.

02:03:19.120 | - 'Cause I know he insulted all of Brazil,

02:03:20.560 | but I'm not sure if it was in Brazil.

02:03:22.480 | - But when he tried to do that to Khabib,

02:03:23.960 | you could tell that he just was not gonna get

02:03:25.440 | in Khabib's head.

02:03:26.280 | Khabib was unflappable.

02:03:27.840 | But there is definitely something great

02:03:30.800 | about how he moves people.

02:03:32.760 | The Irish are,

02:03:34.360 | Conor's walkout music,

02:03:37.720 | for people from Ireland of Irish descent,

02:03:41.280 | that shit is very deep.

02:03:44.440 | It's a very emotional song.

02:03:47.760 | - I was, to be honest, a little bit upset with Khabib

02:03:51.520 | that he didn't rise,

02:03:54.200 | I admire that entire culture,

02:03:56.800 | but there's an aspect to where he could have risen

02:03:59.320 | to the occasion of,

02:04:01.400 | there's the same kind of depth of love of country

02:04:06.400 | that Russia has.

02:04:08.320 | - Is there in Dagestan?

02:04:11.800 | - Dagestan is a little weird in the terms of like,

02:04:15.080 | but he could have, especially with Putin's support,

02:04:18.360 | wear for a bit the full Russian hat

02:04:22.240 | of like, this is the great nation,

02:04:24.000 | like rise above the culture of Dagestan,

02:04:28.280 | which is a small town boy with small town values,

02:04:31.120 | a family and all those kinds of things.

02:04:33.120 | There's a moment where you inspire entire nations,

02:04:36.640 | like the step up and be the foil

02:04:40.360 | to the great Conor McGregor,

02:04:43.400 | where also Khabib becomes the foil too,

02:04:47.560 | like both of them are the foil to each other

02:04:49.760 | and become like, that fight was already a great fight,

02:04:54.520 | but it could have been something historic,

02:04:57.080 | Ali versus, I mean, it could have been really historic.

02:05:00.360 | And I would argue,

02:05:01.820 | I guess the biggest disappointment I have,

02:05:05.640 | and I understand it,

02:05:06.640 | and I also honor it as a martial artist,

02:05:08.720 | but I'm disappointed that Khabib doesn't seem

02:05:13.320 | to even consider the possibility of doing in Moscow

02:05:17.680 | fight number two.

02:05:19.800 | 'Cause that could be narrative wise, if they do it right,

02:05:25.080 | that's one of the,

02:05:26.120 | could be one of the greatest fights in history.

02:05:29.440 | - Yeah, I think in terms of Khabib and inspiring a country,

02:05:36.080 | is it possible that by staying true to the values

02:05:39.760 | that he had his entire career

02:05:41.560 | and getting to the zenith of his art form

02:05:46.560 | and still doing it in that humble way,

02:05:49.120 | isn't it possible that that inspires?

02:05:50.920 | - Yeah, 100%.

02:05:51.880 | So I should clarify that I think

02:05:55.040 | they're just hearing from people,

02:05:56.880 | from my fellow comrades, no,

02:05:59.680 | they love that, they love that.

02:06:03.520 | But they-

02:06:05.280 | - There's also a brash beer chugging, shit talking thing

02:06:09.440 | that people really like about Conor.

02:06:11.160 | And I do love that.

02:06:12.520 | - But the beautiful narrative would have been the clash,

02:06:15.320 | the real clash of those cultures.

02:06:17.240 | So Khabib chooses to live the culture by walking away.

02:06:22.240 | There's also like a clash of them,

02:06:26.320 | sort of walking, not walking away from the fire,

02:06:29.160 | but walking into the fire of this,

02:06:32.640 | of this brashness.

02:06:33.760 | It's the sort of,

02:06:34.900 | the cool collected, like calmness of the Dagestan people.

02:06:41.620 | - It's like you were talking about the Saitia brothers.

02:06:43.720 | So they just view it totally differently.

02:06:46.560 | And there are stereotypes about the Irish

02:06:50.120 | where they're maybe potentially a louder,

02:06:52.800 | more boisterous culture.

02:06:54.640 | (Lex laughing)

02:06:55.480 | - I haven't heard of that, yeah.

02:06:57.400 | - And I mean, I thought they each played

02:06:59.720 | their part perfectly.

02:07:01.700 | And all those things that you're describing

02:07:04.760 | could have happened.

02:07:05.600 | Maybe Khabib steps up and he carries the proverbial flag,

02:07:08.320 | so to speak, for a nation of people and they go to battle.

02:07:10.940 | But the fight, if it plays out the same way,

02:07:12.720 | is still the fight.

02:07:13.960 | And it was an okay fight.

02:07:16.520 | It wasn't a great fight.

02:07:17.920 | It was, you know, the fight was okay.

02:07:21.160 | And I think that, again, I don't have any idea

02:07:26.080 | what Khabib's obligations to his family are.

02:07:28.800 | I don't think either of those guys, you know,

02:07:31.820 | is want for more money.

02:07:34.120 | To do another fight is just a legacy thing.

02:07:38.000 | It's just about, you know, fulfilling some part of a legacy.

02:07:43.000 | - And I just, I admire the possibility of a great legacy

02:07:49.200 | that is bigger than either of the fighters.

02:07:51.860 | I think with Khabib, he kind of,

02:07:55.060 | he's not as concerned about legacy, I think.

02:07:57.420 | - Right.

02:07:58.260 | - As--

02:07:59.100 | - But you're a promoter's dream,

02:08:00.340 | because you want the rematch.

02:08:01.900 | And the only thing that makes more money

02:08:03.220 | than the rematch is the trilogy.

02:08:05.540 | You gotta split the rematch, you hope Conor wins,

02:08:09.020 | and then you have the trilogy fight.

02:08:10.500 | And now you're all in.

02:08:11.820 | - Yeah.

02:08:13.020 | Yeah, I can't get into Khabib's head,

02:08:15.340 | but I know Putin, just the game, the entirety of it,

02:08:19.380 | especially at the time,

02:08:20.340 | especially if it was Trump as president,

02:08:22.340 | if he was as president at the time,

02:08:26.420 | and Putin, and in Russia,

02:08:30.260 | and just knowing how masterful Conor is at like,

02:08:35.260 | 'cause Conor would be a different Conor.

02:08:37.420 | I think he would be a calmer Conor.

02:08:39.060 | Like there would be a different,

02:08:40.660 | 'cause you don't wanna be over the top Conor

02:08:43.780 | with the Russian people.

02:08:44.820 | - Right, no, that's--

02:08:46.260 | - It's like, it's a dangerous ground.

02:08:48.500 | - When Kyle fought to beat,

02:08:49.860 | that was the episode in the hotel in Brooklyn.

02:08:52.900 | - Yeah.

02:08:53.900 | - And then some of the Russian guys confronted Artem,

02:08:58.420 | and then Conor came over.

02:09:00.140 | - It's not, but the danger of that,

02:09:02.500 | I mean, there's the element of just like real danger,

02:09:05.940 | and the real, it was almost of war.

02:09:08.340 | It's, I don't know, it's--

02:09:10.340 | - It was like when Chael Sonnen was talking so much smack,

02:09:14.940 | maybe it was against Vanderlei Silva.

02:09:17.340 | I don't know, and it was one of those fights

02:09:18.900 | where they just didn't think

02:09:19.740 | he was gonna make it out of Brazil.

02:09:20.900 | - Yeah.

02:09:21.740 | - Yeah.

02:09:22.860 | - Americans don't get it.

02:09:24.460 | - Yeah.

02:09:25.300 | - People take some of that shit

02:09:26.340 | in different parts of the world very, very seriously.

02:09:28.540 | - Yeah, but that's what makes it beautiful.

02:09:31.380 | That's what makes a great story,

02:09:32.700 | and I think fighting is very much about the stories,

02:09:35.580 | not just about the particular outcomes of a fight,

02:09:39.660 | or the skillset matching, or the chess of the fight.

02:09:43.780 | It's also about the story of the greater

02:09:47.420 | context of societies, of warring.

02:09:51.700 | We're like warring cultures.

02:09:53.180 | We're still, we're still good,

02:09:55.020 | we're no longer can have great, big, hot wars

02:09:59.340 | between nations because of nuclear weapons.

02:10:03.060 | This is our wars that we can have,

02:10:05.460 | and in some sense I feel robbed

02:10:08.660 | of the great war that could have happened.

02:10:10.980 | - It doesn't mean there aren't lots of wars going on,

02:10:13.740 | but yeah, the big one is not gonna happen.

02:10:16.060 | There's too much of a balance of power

02:10:17.300 | with nuclear weapons and technology and stuff,

02:10:20.180 | but it's not the end of war.

02:10:23.140 | - No.

02:10:24.180 | Do you think there's always gonna be war?

02:10:26.940 | - I think there'll always be war,

02:10:28.340 | especially in underdeveloped parts of the world.

02:10:30.740 | - Isn't there always underdeveloped

02:10:33.300 | relatively parts of the world?

02:10:35.340 | - Yeah, I mean at some point though,

02:10:36.660 | you'd think, I mean the way that technology's expanding

02:10:40.740 | and we're bringing technology to weird parts of the world

02:10:43.380 | that you wouldn't think of as technologically advanced

02:10:47.900 | the way that the Chinese are inhabiting certain areas

02:10:51.460 | for mining purposes and things like that.

02:10:54.300 | I think underdeveloped parts of the world

02:10:57.300 | will get developed quickly.

02:10:59.500 | - I just wonder what the nature of that war might be.

02:11:02.020 | It could be cyber, it could be all those kinds of things.

02:11:04.260 | - I think in developed nations it's gonna be cyber.

02:11:06.340 | I think that's probably the next phase of war,

02:11:08.260 | but I mean I think you talk about parts of the world

02:11:09.980 | like the Middle East, and it's just still gonna be

02:11:11.780 | warring tribal factions.

02:11:13.540 | We can't even begin to understand

02:11:15.340 | what those people are fighting about over there,

02:11:17.580 | yet everyone sitting in America on their couch

02:11:20.140 | has an opinion.

02:11:21.060 | You can't even begin to understand it.

02:11:24.220 | I sure can't.

02:11:25.540 | - Yeah, it's back to the principles discussion

02:11:27.860 | when what's violated is much deeper

02:11:31.380 | than just kind of anything we can even,

02:11:34.380 | in a middle class existence can even comprehend.

02:11:38.420 | - A lot of times American soldiers will go to war

02:11:40.380 | because that's what they're told to do,

02:11:41.660 | and maybe they disagree with the orders,

02:11:43.420 | and maybe they agree with the orders,

02:11:44.580 | but I get a sense that people in the Middle East fighting

02:11:47.540 | all believe in what they're fighting for.

02:11:49.900 | It's not a thing where they're told to go do it.

02:11:53.060 | I believe they really believe that what they're doing

02:11:56.740 | is the right thing, and they're defending

02:11:58.060 | some sort of principle.

02:11:59.940 | - Are you generally optimistic about the future,

02:12:03.740 | speaking of war, of human civilization?

02:12:05.660 | Do you think we'll,

02:12:07.260 | people talk about the Fermi Paradox,

02:12:13.740 | and asking why haven't aliens visited us,

02:12:17.020 | if you believe they haven't visited us.

02:12:19.180 | One of the thoughts is that there's a kind of a great filter

02:12:25.340 | that intelligent civilization reach a point

02:12:29.220 | where it destroys itself naturally,

02:12:31.180 | so that's why we haven't seen them.

02:12:32.420 | They don't last very long.

02:12:34.320 | There does seem to be a kind of,

02:12:36.580 | we seem to be advancing faster and faster and faster.

02:12:39.700 | We keep developing more and more powerful ways

02:12:41.660 | of destroying ourselves in all kinds of ways,

02:12:44.060 | not even, just even to say nuclear weapons alone,

02:12:48.820 | but there's all kinds of new ways,

02:12:50.940 | engineered pandemics, nanotechnology, AGI,

02:12:55.940 | all those kinds of things.

02:12:58.400 | It seems to be that the argument that we,

02:13:04.900 | are we going to destroy ourselves

02:13:07.780 | in some kind of creative way very shortly

02:13:10.740 | is not too crazy of an argument to make.

02:13:13.860 | - Are you more optimistic or pessimistic

02:13:16.820 | about the prospects of human civilization

02:13:18.940 | in maybe the 22nd century?

02:13:21.380 | Like is it possible that your generation

02:13:23.740 | is the last generation to be alive on Earth?

02:13:26.420 | - No, but I wouldn't say that five generations from now,

02:13:29.300 | that won't be, that could be true.

02:13:31.200 | I guess I think of it really selfishly.

02:13:34.380 | I'm a big believer that when your time here on Earth is over,

02:13:38.320 | the overwhelmingly vast majority of people

02:13:42.380 | will be forgotten within 12 calendar months.

02:13:44.860 | The people with no family will be forgotten sooner.

02:13:47.820 | And so I don't give a lot of thought

02:13:49.340 | to what will happen to Earth or mankind when I'm gone.

02:13:52.420 | I give more thought to maximizing my time here now.

02:13:55.940 | And I wanna do it in a way where I don't,

02:13:59.540 | I'm not overtly hindering the future

02:14:03.780 | of civilization or humankind,

02:14:05.900 | but I'm definitely taking a me first approach

02:14:09.140 | to how I live on Earth.

02:14:10.780 | - Do you have a philosophy behind why you have

02:14:13.500 | or don't have kids on this topic?

02:14:16.700 | Because for many people, when they have kids,

02:14:18.940 | there's a sense, it's almost like a genetic sense

02:14:23.940 | or something like that, where all of a sudden

02:14:26.420 | you do start caring about what happens

02:14:28.220 | five generations from now.

02:14:29.540 | - I mean, I think I'm just too selfish.

02:14:32.940 | I mean, I think that's the easy answer.

02:14:37.620 | Like I know that your whole life has to change.

02:14:40.440 | You know, your focus, everything shifts

02:14:43.740 | and just don't wanna do that.

02:14:45.940 | And also, I think that there's a level of,

02:14:48.460 | I guess if I have to really unpack it,

02:14:51.500 | there's probably a level of lack of hope in the future.

02:14:56.500 | I don't think the world and humanity

02:14:59.980 | is going in the right direction.

02:15:01.580 | - What does the right direction look like?

02:15:04.780 | - I think the right direction looks like people

02:15:08.500 | coming back together in a more impactful human way,

02:15:13.500 | in person, touching, feeling, talking face to face.

02:15:20.040 | - So all the things you're describing is what we had,

02:15:23.160 | as you mentioned before, when you were like a teenager.

02:15:25.500 | - Yeah. - So the state of the world.

02:15:27.080 | But that's because your mind was formed then.

02:15:29.200 | - It very well could be.

02:15:31.080 | It very well could be.

02:15:32.040 | - It's very possible that the virtual reality worlds

02:15:34.160 | that we'll create will be actually

02:15:35.960 | a much higher level of existence.

02:15:37.760 | In fact, now we're moving slowly away from tribalism.

02:15:42.760 | Perhaps you could argue the ideas of nations.

02:15:46.240 | And we're moving into the realm of ideas.

02:15:49.760 | And it could be a higher form of existence

02:15:51.640 | where we're sort of moving past the constraints

02:15:56.040 | of our meat vehicles into the space of our minds.

02:15:59.520 | - It depends what you value.

02:16:00.720 | 'Cause when you sit here and you talk about it,

02:16:02.720 | and you're talking about these things

02:16:04.120 | on these humongous levels, on these macro levels.

02:16:07.240 | And I don't think a lot of people view it that way.

02:16:09.080 | I think a lot of people view it as like,

02:16:10.760 | what kind of pizza am I getting tonight?

02:16:12.640 | Like it's a much different outlook.

02:16:14.760 | And sure, the virtual world that's on the horizon,

02:16:19.760 | I'm sure it's got benefits and will help people.

02:16:22.820 | But is it gonna help the things that you find valuable?

02:16:25.280 | Like, is it gonna help commerce?

02:16:26.800 | Okay, sure.

02:16:27.640 | Is that the thing you find the most valuable?

02:16:29.360 | Is it gonna help communication?

02:16:31.240 | Well, it'll help disseminating information.

02:16:33.400 | Is it gonna help explain the information

02:16:35.320 | you're disseminating?

02:16:36.140 | Probably not.

02:16:37.320 | Is it gonna hinder interpersonal communication?

02:16:39.600 | Absolutely.

02:16:40.440 | And those are things I find valuable.

02:16:42.280 | Interpersonal communication, talking to people.

02:16:45.120 | It saddens me when I go into a restaurant

02:16:49.080 | and there's five-year-old kids who like,

02:16:50.880 | slamming away on an iPad

02:16:52.200 | and can't make eye contact with anybody.

02:16:54.020 | Or teenagers who don't say please and thank you

02:16:56.300 | when they order from the waitress.

02:16:58.000 | That to me is wrong.

02:16:59.480 | That shit's wrong.

02:17:00.680 | And I don't know this for a fact,

02:17:02.520 | but I do attribute that to using technology as a crutch

02:17:06.660 | when we're raising kids.

02:17:08.460 | I think those are things that I find valuable.

02:17:13.620 | - I tried to empathize.

02:17:14.580 | I mean, I agree with you as a person

02:17:16.140 | who grew up in a certain age,

02:17:17.220 | but prior to the internet, I suppose.

02:17:19.880 | But, or at least solidified the early philosophies

02:17:24.980 | of the way I see the world prior to the internet.

02:17:27.660 | During the time of AOL, let's put it this way.

02:17:32.380 | (imitates burping)

02:17:33.220 | (laughing)

02:17:35.140 | What was your aim screen name?

02:17:36.700 | - I never had one.

02:17:37.540 | - Okay.

02:17:38.360 | - Dude, I was the last person I knew to get a cell phone.

02:17:40.860 | I was so anti all that stuff

02:17:42.860 | because I just felt like I didn't wanna be a part of it.

02:17:46.540 | I did not wanna be a part of it.

02:17:47.660 | I joined the underground forum about MMA in 2000 or 2001

02:17:52.220 | when I first started training.

02:17:53.720 | I think right at the tail end, I got a MySpace,

02:17:57.220 | but I didn't have any of that stuff

02:17:58.380 | and I didn't want any of it.

02:17:59.780 | I don't know why.

02:18:00.660 | I just was not into it.

02:18:03.680 | I felt like, what are the good things

02:18:06.820 | that are gonna come out of it?

02:18:08.140 | I'm gonna get my package in two days instead of four days?

02:18:11.220 | Does that make my life better?

02:18:12.900 | - I try to deeply empathize

02:18:15.260 | with a lot of experiences of other people.

02:18:17.020 | And one of the things I love,

02:18:18.940 | like the smell of paper books and books in general.

02:18:22.260 | And early on, this is like five years ago,

02:18:24.720 | I just gave away all my books.

02:18:27.140 | And I said, "I'm really going to try

02:18:29.100 | "to fall in love with the books

02:18:32.020 | "in the same way I did before, but now with a Kindle."

02:18:35.100 | Or not a Kindle, like paper, white, whatever.

02:18:37.580 | The e-book reader. - E-reader.

02:18:40.420 | - And I'm still not there,

02:18:42.580 | but I've been trying to fall in love with that experience.

02:18:46.860 | And the same way I try to think

02:18:48.300 | like teenagers are really into TikTok now,

02:18:50.820 | like making these short videos,

02:18:52.380 | I try to consider the possibility

02:18:55.220 | that their existence will be a much happier one

02:18:57.420 | than I've had because of this kind of interaction.

02:19:01.060 | From my sort of skeptical perspective,

02:19:02.980 | it's like the attention span is so short,

02:19:05.500 | they don't really deeply think or deeply experience things.

02:19:08.940 | They construct a social layer

02:19:11.820 | that they present to the world.

02:19:13.540 | And they work on creating this social layer,

02:19:16.000 | like the presentation to the world,

02:19:18.180 | much more than really sitting alone

02:19:20.100 | with their thoughts and the sadnesses

02:19:21.720 | and their hopes and dreams and fears.

02:19:23.820 | And like working on the project

02:19:26.020 | that is their own actual person

02:19:29.740 | that exists in this physical world,

02:19:31.300 | as opposed to working on the project

02:19:32.740 | of a particular social platform that they show.

02:19:35.820 | But like perhaps that project,

02:19:38.300 | like who cares who you are in the physical space?

02:19:42.020 | Maybe what you are is what your Instagram shows.

02:19:46.060 | That's the more important project to work on.

02:19:48.100 | - Well, what's reality? - Yeah, what's reality?

02:19:49.940 | - Perception is reality, right?

02:19:51.260 | So how other people perceive this constructed thing,

02:19:54.740 | that's their reality of you.

02:19:56.460 | But is it your reality?

02:19:58.020 | I mean, like we said earlier,

02:19:59.460 | how you want people to see you

02:20:03.340 | is very rarely in line with how you really are

02:20:06.620 | or how you see yourself.

02:20:08.580 | And I mean, I can remember being like a 13-year-old kid

02:20:11.620 | and like when you go through a bunch of

02:20:13.300 | weird 13-year-old kid shit,

02:20:14.900 | like sitting in my room, like turning a red light on

02:20:18.280 | and listening to like a sad record

02:20:20.260 | and like trying to figure out what's going on inside.

02:20:23.340 | Sometimes you like it, sometimes you don't like it.

02:20:25.420 | But I feel like those experiences are lost

02:20:28.020 | on kids constantly connected to a phone.

02:20:29.900 | And like, I don't know what the remedy

02:20:32.020 | for those situations is nowadays.

02:20:33.860 | Like, I don't know, do they make a TikTok video?

02:20:35.500 | Do they blog about it?

02:20:37.180 | Do they make a video or a--

02:20:39.460 | - Nobody blogs anymore, bro.

02:20:40.760 | - Whatever, man.

02:20:41.860 | Or a video, a story about,

02:20:46.020 | oh, this is what happened to me and blah, blah, blah, blah.

02:20:48.500 | Does that actually help them work it out?

02:20:50.580 | Or does it just create more noise and more static

02:20:52.680 | on how to get to the root of the problem

02:20:54.340 | and learn about themselves?

02:20:55.820 | - I don't know what future social networks are exactly.

02:20:58.580 | I do know on a shallow level,

02:21:00.460 | it does feel good when somebody clicks like on something.

02:21:03.140 | I think that is more of a drug

02:21:05.140 | than an actual deep, long-lasting, fulfilling happiness.

02:21:09.100 | But perhaps there's a way to make a social network

02:21:11.180 | that does lead to long-lasting happiness

02:21:14.260 | that's somehow detached from the physical meat space.

02:21:18.260 | I don't know, but it feels like

02:21:19.940 | you want to give that a chance.

02:21:21.780 | - Do you think when people are liking things on social media,

02:21:25.940 | do you think there's just a group of people,

02:21:27.840 | an overwhelming majority of people

02:21:29.200 | that are gonna like whatever you put out there,

02:21:30.920 | they're clicking like,

02:21:32.020 | and then there's another section of people

02:21:33.520 | that just constantly scroll and like,

02:21:35.480 | scroll and like, and scroll and like.

02:21:37.760 | Do you think when you get a like on content you put out,

02:21:42.760 | that that like perhaps came from someone

02:21:45.040 | who normally doesn't like your content,

02:21:47.220 | but you've just changed their mind on something,

02:21:50.760 | or you've turned them around on it?

02:21:52.740 | I tend to think that when I get likes on social media,

02:21:55.380 | those are just the people that like all my shit

02:21:56.920 | no matter what I say.

02:21:58.220 | They probably don't even read it.

02:21:59.360 | I could put the most preposterous thing up there,

02:22:02.140 | and you're still gonna get a handful of the same exact likes.

02:22:04.340 | - That's interesting.

02:22:05.180 | But I tend to, the way I see likes,

02:22:07.880 | you said multiple things.

02:22:10.040 | I think in one sense you see social media

02:22:13.660 | as a battleground of ideas,

02:22:15.700 | and like is a kind of indicator,

02:22:17.700 | the best possible like is an indicator of like,

02:22:20.240 | of you winning over somebody on an idea,

02:22:25.060 | and they really appreciate that idea.

02:22:26.380 | That's the best possible like.

02:22:27.780 | To me, a like is just two strangers smiling at each other,

02:22:31.780 | like a moment of like.

02:22:33.660 | - I got you, bro.

02:22:36.300 | - Yeah, I got you, bro.

02:22:37.340 | - Yeah.

02:22:38.180 | - Yeah, like fist bump, like yeah,

02:22:40.400 | we're in this fucking thing together.

02:22:42.180 | This whole thing doesn't make any sense,

02:22:43.620 | but we're in this together.

02:22:45.820 | - I think--

02:22:46.660 | - Yeah, it's possible for likes to be that.

02:22:48.780 | I don't think the actual clicking of a like.

02:22:51.820 | I think social media at its best might be that,

02:22:54.540 | where it's like, I got you, bro, at a large scale,

02:22:59.540 | as opposed to kind of this weird,

02:23:03.140 | crazy pool of dopamine where everyone's just obsessed

02:23:07.420 | with just likes and likes,

02:23:09.060 | and then the division drives more of this weird,

02:23:13.900 | anxious engagement.

02:23:16.180 | I think that's just the dark version of it

02:23:18.180 | in the early days of social media.

02:23:19.860 | - I think you called it a battleground of ideas,

02:23:22.740 | but I think social media is nothing

02:23:24.020 | but a battleground of fragile egos.

02:23:26.080 | - Well, but humans are fragile egos.

02:23:29.900 | - I mean, maybe, but I think the people,

02:23:33.220 | I think particularly on social media,

02:23:35.220 | they're the most fragile.

02:23:36.760 | Would you be doing all the things you're doing,

02:23:41.660 | what would you be doing if you weren't,

02:23:43.660 | if you weren't podcasting and posting the things you do

02:23:50.100 | on social media, what would you be doing?

02:23:52.500 | You'd probably be much the same guy, right?

02:23:55.720 | But I think that on social media, the fragile ego people,

02:23:59.980 | what you see on social media is not what they'd be doing

02:24:02.300 | without social media.

02:24:03.620 | Does that make any sense?

02:24:04.940 | You're probably, your mission is probably

02:24:07.140 | somewhat congruent, your path.

02:24:09.500 | You're just utilizing social media,

02:24:10.960 | but I think a lot of people,

02:24:12.600 | social media has changed their path

02:24:14.540 | and now they're doing something totally foreign to them

02:24:19.540 | and they're only able to do it

02:24:22.180 | maybe because of social media.

02:24:23.500 | - I think you're focusing on a particular moment in time

02:24:27.140 | of people in their less great moments,

02:24:31.580 | like in their less great version of themselves.

02:24:34.140 | I think you're just focusing on the masses struggling

02:24:37.060 | to become the best version of themselves

02:24:39.900 | and then you, yeah, sure.

02:24:41.940 | For stretches of time, whether it's days, weeks, or months,

02:24:45.660 | you could be a shitty person on the internet.

02:24:47.620 | I think you're focusing on that

02:24:51.500 | and unfortunately, social media platforms emphasize

02:24:56.220 | they love it when you're like that,

02:24:58.220 | when you're not doing great in your own life

02:25:01.380 | because it increases anxiety, increases engagement,

02:25:04.940 | makes you more susceptible to an argument

02:25:07.300 | and then really get pulled into like conspiracy theories,

02:25:09.640 | all that kind of stuff.

02:25:11.300 | - But the other side works too.

02:25:12.620 | I think there's also the people who are on social media

02:25:14.580 | like fronting like they're these positive figures

02:25:17.500 | and like, you know, go into the gym,

02:25:20.500 | like whatever it is, the positivity that they spew out,

02:25:23.240 | but in real life, they're the most negative fucks

02:25:24.940 | you've ever met in your life

02:25:25.980 | and they're just so full of crap

02:25:27.620 | and it's just people playing to an audience.

02:25:30.180 | It's like you said, it's like a politician sometimes.

02:25:33.820 | Like a politician wakes up one day and they decide,

02:25:35.820 | who's the group I can pander to the best

02:25:38.240 | to get the most likes equals votes?

02:25:40.580 | And it's the same thing on social media.

02:25:42.060 | People wake up and whether it's conscious or not,

02:25:45.100 | what's the group I can pander to the best

02:25:47.560 | to get the most likes?

02:25:48.740 | Is it the positivity motivated crowd?

02:25:50.820 | Is it the woe is me crowd?

02:25:52.460 | Like what is it?

02:25:53.300 | Who's gonna give me the most likes?

02:25:54.780 | That's what I'll do.

02:25:55.840 | - I don't know how to argue against that.

02:25:59.180 | It rings true what you're saying,

02:26:03.580 | but I just kind of refuse to believe it.

02:26:05.540 | I guess I'm pandering to the optimistic crowd.

02:26:08.560 | Like I met with my marketing team

02:26:10.600 | and I just feel that love has the best,

02:26:15.600 | what do you call it?

02:26:17.640 | No, I don't know.

02:26:18.460 | There's a lot of people that accuse me

02:26:19.560 | of being like exactly that,

02:26:21.160 | which is like, why are you always being positive?

02:26:22.840 | It's like, well, 'cause I'd like to be that.

02:26:26.640 | - Yeah, but I wouldn't consider you someone who panders.

02:26:30.040 | - No, but I guess what I'm saying is like,

02:26:33.840 | it's easy to say that everyone is pandering,

02:26:38.840 | but like maybe they're just trying.

02:26:42.480 | I do believe that social media platforms

02:26:44.820 | could encourage people when they're trying

02:26:46.220 | to be the best version of themselves, whatever that is.

02:26:48.320 | It could be like Conor McGregor talking shit.

02:26:50.600 | It could be just being positive.

02:26:52.160 | It could be actually creating cool things in this world,

02:26:55.380 | putting out instructional videos for jujitsu

02:26:57.440 | or like inspiring students to competition.

02:26:59.840 | I don't know, all those kinds of things, educational content.

02:27:03.280 | I think that people are trying.

02:27:05.040 | Like I tend to believe that people want to be good.

02:27:09.560 | They want to be successful

02:27:12.720 | in whatever their definition of success is.

02:27:14.300 | And they're kind of struggling to do that.

02:27:15.920 | And they're just awkward at it at first.

02:27:18.320 | And like, it's easy to focus on the awkwardness

02:27:21.160 | and the stumbling around as people have that.

02:27:24.000 | And they start shitting on each other.

02:27:25.480 | It's easy to kind of focus in on that.

02:27:27.340 | But I think that's just like people, white belts.

02:27:30.760 | There's more white belts in the world

02:27:32.000 | than there are black belts.

02:27:32.880 | But you gotta give them a chance to kind of grow.

02:27:34.920 | - I think on social media, if you put your stuff out there,

02:27:37.080 | whatever your stuff is, your content,

02:27:38.600 | your views or whatever, you let the chips fall

02:27:40.760 | where they may, like that's a different thing

02:27:43.200 | than being like, I'm gonna tweak what I normally might say

02:27:46.880 | and put it up this way because I want

02:27:48.360 | these people to like it.

02:27:50.240 | And in terms, I also think I have a different viewpoint

02:27:54.360 | than you do on people wanting to be successful.

02:27:56.760 | I actually don't think that many people

02:27:58.280 | want to be successful.

02:27:59.840 | I think people want to have the appearance

02:28:02.120 | of wanting to be successful.

02:28:04.040 | But to be successful takes a shitload of work.

02:28:06.640 | And most people don't want to put that work in.

02:28:08.600 | So they craft this persona of a person

02:28:11.000 | who's trying really hard but just can't catch the break

02:28:13.720 | or these motherfuckers with getting back on my grind.

02:28:18.400 | You've never been on a grind.

02:28:19.720 | You've been on the couch.

02:28:20.960 | - I so disagree with you.

02:28:22.120 | I get it, I get it.

02:28:24.400 | That's your foil.

02:28:25.260 | You enjoy that guy on the couch with the cheetah.

02:28:27.660 | That's your motivation.

02:28:29.880 | - But just own it.

02:28:30.720 | Don't be like back on the grind,

02:28:32.640 | be like back on the couch.

02:28:33.960 | - Yeah, well, you're like David Goggins

02:28:36.720 | who was like talking shit to the one guy

02:28:38.200 | with the eating Cheetos.

02:28:39.160 | And in so doing inspires millions

02:28:42.240 | to actually pursue their success.

02:28:44.640 | I get it.

02:28:45.480 | But I just think that most people

02:28:46.560 | really do want to be successful

02:28:48.880 | and are trying to work hard and they keep failing.

02:28:52.340 | - But why is it continue?

02:28:55.920 | I'm sorry to interrupt you.

02:28:57.040 | But let's take a person who's overweight.

02:28:59.320 | Do you not think that person wants to be skinny?

02:29:01.440 | Of course they want to be skinny.

02:29:03.000 | They just don't want it enough

02:29:04.840 | to put the pizza or the pie down and go to the gym.

02:29:07.720 | They want it, but they want it to be easy.

02:29:10.220 | Of course they want to be skinny.

02:29:11.760 | - Well, everyone wants it to be easy.

02:29:13.160 | - Right, and of course people want to be successful,

02:29:16.160 | but do they want it enough to do the work?

02:29:18.680 | I don't think they do.

02:29:20.000 | I think the easy thing to do is to create

02:29:22.880 | an outward facing persona of the person who really wants it.

02:29:28.820 | And you get the same reward from a lot of people

02:29:32.840 | as the person who actually is successful.

02:29:35.200 | Very few people differentiate

02:29:36.700 | from the person who's found success

02:29:38.480 | and the person who's showing you

02:29:40.480 | how they're trying to get success on social media.

02:29:43.120 | People see that as the same.

02:29:44.960 | - I see you're going after the marketing dollar

02:29:47.800 | that represents the people that want to work hard.

02:29:50.520 | - Yeah.

02:29:51.800 | - I like it.

02:29:52.640 | You started a podcast recently.

02:29:57.680 | - Hell yeah.

02:29:58.520 | - Called, which people probably from this conversation can,

02:30:02.740 | oh, I guess we didn't really talk about politics much,

02:30:05.100 | or the fact that you're a business owner,

02:30:06.500 | or the fact that you're a red-blooded American

02:30:08.940 | and love this country, America.

02:30:12.660 | We didn't really talk about that,

02:30:14.020 | but from the name of the podcast,

02:30:15.620 | they can probably infer it,

02:30:16.740 | and the name is Please Allow Me.

02:30:20.540 | Good name.

02:30:21.380 | What have you learned from doing this podcast?

02:30:27.620 | What's your hope of doing this podcast?

02:30:30.420 | People should definitely listen to it.

02:30:31.700 | You have a few episodes out.

02:30:32.920 | You're damn good at it, which is very interesting.

02:30:36.380 | I'm sure you'll evolve and change.

02:30:38.820 | So this is like the early days.

02:30:40.180 | I'm curious to see where it goes.

02:30:41.900 | But what's your thinking around it

02:30:44.780 | as an intellectual putting your thoughts out into the world?

02:30:48.900 | - I think that one of the things that COVID did

02:30:52.380 | when we were all kind of in lockdown was,

02:30:54.420 | as a business owner, it made me take stock

02:30:57.000 | of what's the future of brick and mortar businesses.

02:30:59.600 | I've always been reluctant to be an online presence

02:31:03.940 | in any way just 'cause it's not my thing,

02:31:05.660 | because I believe that I'm a force of nature

02:31:07.220 | and people need to experience me.

02:31:08.860 | - And the few characters that Twitter has,

02:31:13.140 | it's not enough to experience.

02:31:13.980 | - It's not enough.

02:31:15.180 | - The force of nature, there's John Clark.

02:31:17.060 | - I want you to feel physically uncomfortable around me.

02:31:19.900 | - This has been three hours

02:31:21.220 | of me being physically uncomfortable.

02:31:23.420 | I'm scared for my life.

02:31:25.180 | And so I thought that that would be one of the ways

02:31:27.560 | in which I could increase.

02:31:29.240 | I came to the conclusion that with the lockdown

02:31:33.240 | and potential future lockdowns,

02:31:34.800 | in order to pay my mortgage and my bar tab

02:31:40.000 | and my Grubhub's out of control,

02:31:42.280 | that I would need to find ancillary ways to--

02:31:45.520 | - DoorDash/Lex.

02:31:47.560 | You don't wanna use Grubhub.

02:31:48.880 | Grubhub sucks.

02:31:49.840 | DoorDash. - They actually do suck.

02:31:51.080 | - DoorDash.

02:31:51.920 | No, I'm just kidding.

02:31:52.740 | Just walk to your local foodery.

02:31:55.400 | - 7-Eleven.

02:31:56.240 | - Yeah, and get the food.

02:31:57.600 | - You can order 7-Eleven from DoorDash.

02:31:59.600 | - Or from Postmates.

02:32:00.640 | - Code Lex.

02:32:01.600 | Okay, I'm sorry.

02:32:03.560 | - But anyway, I thought it was like,

02:32:05.600 | oh, I should probably increase a little bit

02:32:07.480 | my online presence and what would be a way to do that

02:32:12.200 | that would be fun for me and entertaining.

02:32:15.040 | And I thought, well, a lot of people,

02:32:17.920 | yourself included that I know have done some podcasts

02:32:20.560 | and I find that inspiring.

02:32:23.260 | And I'm fortunate enough to know a bunch

02:32:24.900 | of cool motherfuckers that I can talk to

02:32:27.940 | about a wide range of topics.

02:32:31.220 | - Then there is, sorry to drop in,

02:32:32.500 | there's an aspect to which podcasting does capture

02:32:34.660 | the force of nature better.

02:32:36.660 | In the digital form, podcasting captures the force

02:32:39.700 | of nature of a human being better

02:32:41.180 | than other mediums, perhaps.

02:32:42.460 | - Yeah, definitely, there's that.

02:32:43.860 | I just felt like, you know when it's midnight

02:32:48.620 | and you're in the bar and you get the sense

02:32:51.720 | that the bar's gonna close in 90 minutes

02:32:53.760 | and you think, you know, not enough people have seen me yet.

02:32:57.000 | And maybe we should go to another bar

02:32:58.240 | so more people can see me.

02:33:00.080 | I feel like podcasting is like that for me.

02:33:03.760 | Not enough people have heard my thoughts

02:33:05.680 | and I feel like, my mom raised me to be a giver.

02:33:08.840 | She didn't want me to be selfish.

02:33:10.840 | And I have these thoughts that I think--

02:33:15.120 | - It'd be a waste if you didn't give it to the world.

02:33:17.040 | - People seem to really enjoy them.

02:33:18.620 | - Yeah, no, I enjoy them.

02:33:20.740 | - While I've probably been on my best behavior today

02:33:23.380 | on this episode of the podcast.

02:33:25.740 | - So if you want the uncensored, unfiltered,

02:33:29.880 | the full spectrum, the force of nature, there's John Clark.

02:33:33.320 | You go to the podcast.

02:33:35.700 | Funny enough, I think you're drinking

02:33:38.000 | throughout most of the podcast.

02:33:39.460 | - Yeah, yeah.

02:33:40.460 | - Tequila, so they only last like an hour

02:33:42.980 | 'cause you seem to, I'm guessing that you just lose it

02:33:46.660 | in one hour, like it's like Cinderella turns into a frog

02:33:49.700 | or whatever.

02:33:50.540 | - One of the things I'm learning is

02:33:52.660 | sometimes you have great conversations when you're drunk

02:33:57.700 | and sometimes you don't.

02:33:58.620 | Like I went into it with the write drunk,

02:34:01.260 | edit sober mentality.

02:34:02.640 | - Yes, Hemingway.

02:34:05.140 | - Hemingway, yes.

02:34:06.380 | But turns out that sometimes you don't have that much

02:34:10.820 | to edit when you're super shit-faced.

02:34:13.140 | And so I've been scaling that back a little bit.

02:34:17.140 | - What do you mean exactly by that?

02:34:18.900 | Where does it go wrong when you're drunk?

02:34:20.460 | I'm curious about that 'cause--

02:34:22.060 | - Especially when you have a personal relationship

02:34:26.220 | with the person that you're talking to,

02:34:27.820 | rather than trying to put some ideas on display

02:34:29.900 | for other people to hear and maybe talk about,

02:34:32.060 | you wind up just having a conversation with your bro

02:34:34.260 | about inside jokes and things like that.

02:34:36.100 | And it's not that interesting.

02:34:37.820 | No one wants to watch, go to a bar and watch two people

02:34:41.860 | at the, sitting there getting drunk

02:34:43.540 | and talking to each other is different

02:34:45.160 | than listening to like strong discourse.

02:34:48.500 | - Yes.

02:34:49.340 | One interesting thing as a fan of Joe Rogan,

02:34:51.420 | I'm a fan, I've been a fan of Joe Rogan for a long time

02:34:53.500 | and he has his friends over a lot, right?

02:34:56.340 | And there's a aspect to those three, four,

02:34:59.020 | five hour conversations that I really enjoy.

02:35:00.780 | There's a magic to those.

02:35:02.340 | I think he taught the world that those kinds

02:35:03.900 | of long form conversations can work.

02:35:05.820 | What you forget is Joe Rogan is a comedian.

02:35:10.620 | His friends are also celebrities.

02:35:12.420 | Like they know what it's like to be on the mic.

02:35:14.820 | They know there is a challenge to actually having

02:35:18.020 | your friends on a microphone.

02:35:20.260 | - Totally.

02:35:21.100 | - Like they've never, this is the first time

02:35:22.780 | they've been on a microphone.

02:35:24.020 | And that's actually what you've been doing,

02:35:25.540 | which is a very interesting experiment.

02:35:28.020 | And you find that some are more awkward than others.

02:35:31.880 | Like they're trying to find like,

02:35:33.540 | what do I do with this kind of thing?

02:35:35.180 | Why do you not talk to strangers?

02:35:37.740 | Why did you go with people that you're actually know?

02:35:41.460 | - So the simple answer is the people that I selected

02:35:43.920 | are both interesting and I thought would be good at talking.

02:35:46.660 | But then I noticed the thing you just mentioned.

02:35:48.780 | My buddy Paul did the first one and Paul's a wild man.

02:35:51.580 | And if you went out with Paul,

02:35:52.860 | he can talk about a bazillion topics

02:35:56.060 | to a significant level of depth, right?

02:36:00.220 | And he's got a good understanding

02:36:01.220 | and he's got a unique perspective on a lot of things.

02:36:05.140 | And I think he was the first guy invited on my podcast

02:36:10.140 | and it was almost like he was on a little bit

02:36:15.220 | less than natural about it.

02:36:16.900 | And then by the time he loosened up with some drinks,

02:36:19.140 | he was, it just, we were all shit faced.

02:36:22.540 | - There's a phase shift though.

02:36:24.100 | - Totally, totally.

02:36:25.460 | And so he's gonna come back on

02:36:27.780 | and he'll be more comfortable with it.

02:36:29.260 | And it'll probably be awesome

02:36:31.020 | 'cause he's a great person to talk to.

02:36:33.500 | I had my friend Dave on who's a restaurateur

02:36:35.420 | and a musician, that one will be released pretty soon.

02:36:39.260 | But yesterday I had a guy on

02:36:40.740 | who you might really enjoy listening to

02:36:42.460 | who's a friend of mine, his name is Mark Clem.

02:36:44.620 | He's an endurance athlete and he's been compared,

02:36:48.500 | he's been called the white Dave Goggins.

02:36:51.060 | And he talks about like those comparisons

02:36:53.860 | and what he hates about it

02:36:55.300 | and the various events and stuff.

02:36:56.980 | And he's just a guy who's just always kind of like natural

02:36:59.540 | and like I knew he'd be great to get on the podcast.

02:37:01.900 | And so I started with friends who I thought could handle it

02:37:06.900 | and who also are just really interesting people.

02:37:10.500 | And I did it so that I could also establish

02:37:13.980 | a level of comfort because it was a new thing for me.

02:37:16.500 | And I knew that they wouldn't really give a shit

02:37:18.220 | what I was doing and be like,

02:37:19.380 | "Hey, this is cool, I'm going over to JC's house,

02:37:21.060 | "we're gonna drink some tequila and talk shit.

02:37:22.620 | "There's just gonna be a microphone there this time."

02:37:24.580 | - I mean, it's amazing what you're doing,

02:37:25.780 | the freedom of it.

02:37:26.620 | I mean, you're not currently doing any advertisements

02:37:28.580 | or any of that kind of stuff.

02:37:29.420 | He's just exploring your voice

02:37:30.500 | as one of the mediums that you're just trying it out.

02:37:32.940 | - My 11 subscribers know what I'm about.

02:37:34.820 | - Your 11 subscribers, it's in the double digits.

02:37:38.080 | For both you and I, do you have advice for me as a podcaster

02:37:45.020 | and for yourself as a podcaster?

02:37:46.660 | Like if you were to think like you're gonna do,

02:37:48.980 | say, I mean, who knows,

02:37:50.580 | but say you do a thousand more episodes, right?

02:37:53.580 | Like imagine a world where your life continues

02:37:58.220 | in that direction, that this is like a little parallel.

02:38:01.180 | Like for me, this thing is like a little side hobby,

02:38:03.460 | but it's also one that's deeply fulfilling.

02:38:06.100 | So not just from a business perspective,

02:38:09.080 | which is not the way I think about it,

02:38:10.500 | I just think from a life, human perspective.

02:38:13.100 | I probably wouldn't have this kind of conversation

02:38:16.200 | with you off mic, like this long, this deep, this attentive.

02:38:20.900 | There's something really fulfilling

02:38:22.300 | about these conversations.

02:38:23.660 | So what advice would you have for me?

02:38:26.380 | What advice do you have for yourself?

02:38:28.060 | Or have you not introspected this that deeply?

02:38:30.980 | - I have advice.

02:38:32.460 | I think the first advice I would give to you

02:38:34.300 | is I think you should have me on more often.

02:38:37.140 | (laughing)

02:38:39.180 | - Yeah.

02:38:40.020 | - That's first and foremost.

02:38:41.180 | - And second is go on your podcast and have a conversation.

02:38:43.940 | - Well, I would say you come on my podcast when you're ready.

02:38:48.940 | - Yeah.

02:38:49.820 | - When you feel like the product that I'm putting out

02:38:52.940 | would benefit from your presence and vice versa.

02:38:57.020 | Not as a favor to a bro, but at the right time.

02:39:01.700 | - I do sense, actually, it's an interesting,

02:39:04.180 | there's a dance to it, which is,

02:39:06.300 | I recently did, Joe Rogan had a conversation with me

02:39:12.140 | on this podcast.

02:39:13.740 | There's a very specific kind of thing

02:39:16.100 | where you're helping each other out,

02:39:20.060 | but the timing on that has to be right.

02:39:22.180 | If that makes any sense.

02:39:24.900 | You're supporting each other.

02:39:26.740 | It doesn't make sense.

02:39:27.620 | It doesn't make a difference, you would think.

02:39:30.700 | - Right.

02:39:31.540 | - 'Cause it's just people talking.

02:39:32.740 | It doesn't matter what microphone.

02:39:34.140 | But it changes things.

02:39:35.300 | - It does, and there's an order to the guests

02:39:36.900 | that I've had on.

02:39:38.140 | And the next guest that I'll have on

02:39:39.700 | will be a friend we have in common,

02:39:42.660 | and we'll be talking about teaching,

02:39:44.220 | and how to teach different styles of teaching,

02:39:45.960 | and what you're teaching, and all these other things.

02:39:47.500 | - Do you mind saying who?

02:39:48.780 | - Sean Fisher.

02:39:49.620 | - Okay.

02:39:50.460 | - And I think there's an order to,

02:39:54.080 | it's not scientific, but it's based on my gut.

02:39:56.760 | - Is it astrologically based?

02:39:58.900 | What do you mean it's not scientific?

02:40:02.520 | Your gut, so you have a sense.

02:40:05.440 | Like Joe Rogan, for example, tries to do left, right.

02:40:09.560 | He tries to alternate this gut feeling

02:40:12.440 | of these bins of people,

02:40:14.520 | and he tries to alternate world views.

02:40:17.440 | - That's interesting.

02:40:18.800 | - So that he doesn't feel like,

02:40:23.140 | it constantly shakes him, it's more about him,

02:40:26.420 | like constantly pulls him in multiple directions

02:40:28.840 | about how he sees the world,

02:40:31.280 | and that keeps him balanced.

02:40:32.780 | That keeps the conversation kind of exciting.

02:40:34.660 | - That's interesting.

02:40:35.480 | I did it in a way where I knew Paul was gonna be wild,

02:40:39.260 | and we might get a little out of control,

02:40:40.680 | and have some technical hiccups along the way.

02:40:43.680 | And then my friend Jake,

02:40:44.640 | who's a CEO of a pharmaceutical company,

02:40:47.060 | that was very timely because he was able

02:40:49.420 | to speak to vaccines, and--

02:40:50.260 | - And it was kind of scientific flavored.

02:40:52.620 | - Yeah, and what I learned listening back on that

02:40:55.620 | is I learned for myself about,

02:40:58.000 | I wasn't asking the next level questions

02:41:02.140 | to really draw out great answers.

02:41:04.340 | And part of it is,

02:41:05.740 | you're simultaneously hanging out with a bro,

02:41:09.860 | but also I was trying to learn something,

02:41:11.300 | and I didn't learn what I wanted to learn.

02:41:12.980 | And that's my fault, 'cause I didn't ask the questions.

02:41:15.620 | He's an expert in that field.

02:41:17.340 | He doesn't know that I'm an absolute dipshit

02:41:19.740 | when it comes to that stuff.

02:41:20.980 | And so I didn't do a good job,

02:41:22.120 | and if I don't know it,

02:41:22.960 | that means the thing I was trying to tease out of him,

02:41:25.060 | no one who was gonna listen is gonna learn that either.

02:41:27.980 | So I learned that.

02:41:28.980 | Then I had the one with soap on,

02:41:31.820 | which I thought was pretty good.

02:41:34.820 | - He's a wrestler, he's also a farmer.

02:41:36.700 | - Right, and he's a social worker.

02:41:38.620 | - And kind of humble and-- - Thoughtful.

02:41:40.740 | - Yeah, thoughtful. - Thoughtful guy.

02:41:42.460 | - Like slower, so not a wild man, that kind of thing.

02:41:45.180 | - Not a wild man in the sense that I'm wild,

02:41:46.980 | but he does preach this philosophy of being more wild.

02:41:51.080 | Like being in touch with nature.

02:41:52.980 | - Nature, that kind of wild. - Right, right, right.

02:41:55.860 | And then my buddy Dave, he came on,

02:41:58.660 | because I love music,

02:42:01.620 | and I wanted to talk a lot about music,

02:42:03.260 | and he's one of the most knowledgeable people

02:42:05.220 | about music that I know,

02:42:06.420 | and he's got a restaurant coming up.

02:42:07.580 | And I thought my buddy Mark Clem,

02:42:11.140 | being an endurance athlete,

02:42:12.340 | like when you hear some of the,

02:42:13.500 | I didn't even know these things existed

02:42:14.940 | that this fucking kid did.

02:42:16.220 | He's out of his mind.

02:42:17.740 | And I think Sean and I will have

02:42:19.740 | probably the most intellectual conversation

02:42:21.740 | that I'll have had on my podcast to date.

02:42:24.180 | And so there's a little bit of alternating there,

02:42:26.540 | but I did it that way so that--

02:42:31.540 | - There's a gut feeling behind, oh, so that what?

02:42:34.740 | Is there, where are you going?

02:42:36.580 | Do you know where you're going?

02:42:38.180 | - I don't have a destination, but I want to,

02:42:42.120 | I wanna see it to its end, whether that's,

02:42:48.720 | it gets somewhere of its own volition,

02:42:51.640 | or it takes on a new life at some point,

02:42:53.840 | and then I know how to drive it where it needs to go.

02:42:56.480 | I think the advice I have for both of us is,

02:43:02.740 | I think I need to, no, I don't think so.

02:43:09.960 | I think for you, I see an inner turmoil.

02:43:13.160 | I see a storm that bruising you

02:43:15.080 | because I feel like there's a concern for what you're saying

02:43:19.000 | and is it gonna lead to negative feelings towards you

02:43:24.000 | or the thing that you're doing?

02:43:29.520 | And I feel like we're different people,

02:43:33.880 | and I have such an easier time saying fuck off to everybody.

02:43:37.440 | And that's a liberating thing,

02:43:40.140 | but it also can keep me from achieving the thing

02:43:43.580 | that I want to achieve because I'm so flippant with opinions

02:43:48.440 | that I don't listen to them

02:43:49.640 | and let them direct me when they should.

02:43:51.280 | There's a balance.

02:43:52.380 | - Let me push back on that.

02:43:54.760 | - Please do.

02:43:55.600 | - I think you believe that about yourself,

02:43:57.760 | and nevertheless, your social media presence

02:43:59.960 | indicates otherwise.

02:44:01.160 | If I were to be very harsh, you're one of the

02:44:04.560 | mentally strongest, character-wise people I know,

02:44:07.440 | and yet, on social media,

02:44:09.600 | don't put your face to the world.

02:44:11.760 | - No.

02:44:13.000 | One of the reasons you sense the fear in me, which exists,

02:44:16.840 | I, of course, wanna let go of it,

02:44:19.000 | is because I put my face, my name on things,

02:44:23.480 | and so when I say something stupid,

02:44:25.760 | it hurts when people say,

02:44:29.920 | "Look, that guy said something stupid."

02:44:32.240 | And so there's a fear of saying something stupid

02:44:34.320 | in all of his different forms,

02:44:35.900 | of being my lesser self.

02:44:38.480 | It's the same feeling I have in competition

02:44:40.280 | of losing, not just losing, losing doesn't matter,

02:44:43.720 | it's embarrassing myself.

02:44:46.120 | I like losing, being the lesser version of myself,

02:44:49.240 | and when you put yourself out there in a full way,

02:44:51.000 | I think you, I would venture to say you're also,

02:44:55.040 | 'cause you said you wouldn't give yourself that advice,

02:44:58.440 | I feel like you're also afraid of standing behind

02:45:00.660 | some of the ideas, 'cause right now,

02:45:02.240 | you're doing guerrilla warfare.

02:45:03.560 | You're free to be, to say things,

02:45:08.800 | to speak your mind from the sidelines,

02:45:11.840 | but the moment you're standing,

02:45:14.080 | like when people can throw shit at you,

02:45:16.360 | I feel like you haven't faced that fire yet.

02:45:19.760 | You've been avoiding that fire.

02:45:21.080 | I'm not sure, maybe I'm projecting.

02:45:23.060 | - No, to a degree, you're right.

02:45:24.560 | I think a big thing for me was putting ads on,

02:45:28.200 | for our jujitsu online curriculum.

02:45:33.120 | That was a big thing for me,

02:45:35.080 | because for several reasons,

02:45:37.160 | like in the climate of everyone under the sun

02:45:39.720 | having a jujitsu tutorial online,

02:45:43.400 | and social media, not social media necessarily,

02:45:45.520 | but forums specifically that critique and shit the bed.

02:45:49.720 | One thing I have not done that I've thought about doing,

02:45:52.000 | and probably you're right in your analysis of it,

02:45:54.680 | is I've not gone the way that I do see you

02:45:57.160 | on things like Reddit and say,

02:45:58.800 | "Hey, Reddit, I'm doing this."

02:46:00.440 | Like I could easily go to Reddit and say,

02:46:01.860 | "Hey, Reddit, I got this website up.

02:46:04.560 | "Here's a sample video,"

02:46:05.840 | whatever the fuck people do on there.

02:46:07.200 | But yeah, you're right, I haven't done that.

02:46:08.720 | And part of it might be because I know also

02:46:13.720 | if I get suckered in for one second into the negativity,

02:46:18.960 | I'm gonna become an online warrior,

02:46:20.760 | and I don't wanna be that person.

02:46:22.600 | So yeah, you're probably right.

02:46:24.000 | - So you're self-aware about that.

02:46:25.320 | I mean, one of the things I've early on decided is like,

02:46:29.180 | I'm just gonna be, I've always really enjoyed being positive,

02:46:32.920 | so I'm going to make sure I stay that way.

02:46:35.800 | And when there's negativity, it's like,

02:46:37.800 | I'm not just ignoring it,

02:46:40.360 | I'm literally just returning it with positivity.

02:46:42.840 | I probably am the same way as you,

02:46:45.800 | most people are, with egos.

02:46:48.520 | You wanna become the warrior against the negativity.

02:46:51.200 | And like many wars, there's no winning.

02:46:56.040 | There's no winning that war.

02:46:56.880 | - Especially online.

02:46:57.920 | - Especially on the internet.

02:46:59.080 | And so in that sense, that's been a journey

02:47:02.500 | to try to face the fire of the negativity.

02:47:07.500 | And it's not actually that bad,

02:47:08.760 | it sounds like very dramatic.

02:47:09.960 | There's not many people that are negative,

02:47:11.600 | but it's like when you put advertisements,

02:47:14.000 | so you put your face on an instructional

02:47:15.920 | or something like that.

02:47:17.440 | It just, there's an aspect to it

02:47:19.360 | which you're being a salesman,

02:47:20.720 | you're being a gimmicky thing.

02:47:23.400 | It just feels wrong, and people will point out,

02:47:26.200 | look, that guy's a fraud, look, he's fake,

02:47:27.980 | look, he's trying.

02:47:29.280 | But those people are going to be out there,

02:47:31.180 | and if you're trying to do your best,

02:47:33.480 | trying to be authentic, and not trying to be

02:47:36.760 | a snake oil salesman, and being the shady kind of salesman,

02:47:41.760 | I think they keep you honest.

02:47:46.280 | They keep you honest, being the most authentic self.

02:47:49.120 | And podcasting is the best medium,

02:47:52.320 | because you're being real.

02:47:53.340 | Those one hour plus that you put out there,

02:47:56.720 | that's real, John.

02:47:58.640 | That's not a, people fall in love with that,

02:48:03.640 | and that's the beautiful aspect of podcasting,

02:48:06.420 | is there's no, long form doesn't give any possibility

02:48:11.420 | for you not to be authentic.

02:48:14.140 | - Right.

02:48:14.980 | - And that's why it's a magical medium.

02:48:16.700 | The tough thing is you're not,

02:48:21.080 | popularity takes time, popularity.

02:48:24.980 | And so you shouldn't be doing it for that reason.

02:48:27.860 | And I don't, it's not the thing that really drives me.

02:48:32.860 | Yeah.

02:48:34.620 | - Is there three books, technical fiction,

02:48:36.700 | or philosophical, that had an impact on you?

02:48:38.460 | Like, is there books that you kind of return to

02:48:40.260 | that you enjoy, and that you find profound in some way?

02:48:44.860 | - I would say, probably the thing I read

02:48:46.940 | is in one of Emerson's essays that I read

02:48:49.180 | at a point in my life where I needed that type of thing.

02:48:52.900 | And I read Self Reliance, and he's got a ton of good essays,

02:48:56.440 | but I thought Self Reliance was probably

02:48:58.140 | the most impactful to me.

02:48:59.880 | I've read later in life, like a handful of,

02:49:04.220 | existential authors, and they're all great,

02:49:09.020 | but at the time, a lot of it has to do with timing.

02:49:12.100 | And when I read Self Reliance,

02:49:14.020 | and it was about the individual that was really good,

02:49:17.380 | and it was impactful.

02:49:19.820 | There's also a book called Jonathan Livingston Siegel,

02:49:22.720 | by Richard Bach, I think.

02:49:25.300 | And it's kind of along the same lines.

02:49:27.880 | It's about this Siegel who wants to break conformity,

02:49:31.000 | and learn to fly, and do all these other great things.

02:49:33.560 | And so it's a very short read.

02:49:35.380 | So if people are interested in that, that's good.

02:49:37.540 | The book, which I was lucky enough to read

02:49:42.280 | before the movie ever even came out,

02:49:44.220 | which is just a pleasure of mine, was American Psycho.

02:49:47.980 | Just from a writing standpoint,

02:49:49.620 | I found that the writing was awesome.

02:49:52.820 | Brett Easton Ellis, who's the author of that,

02:49:54.380 | and several other books who have intertwining characters.

02:49:57.540 | He's a New England prep school guy.

02:49:59.020 | And so a lot of the stories,

02:50:00.680 | and a lot of the visuals rang true for me.

02:50:05.420 | And anyone who can write four pages of prose

02:50:07.780 | on a Huey Lewis album, kudos to you.

02:50:10.480 | And I also would say, no one will do this,

02:50:14.740 | but I would, at some point, read as much

02:50:19.620 | of one of the big three religious texts as possible.

02:50:24.100 | It really gives you perspective.

02:50:25.500 | There's so many overlapping stories of religious texts,

02:50:30.300 | and then the way that they're written

02:50:31.780 | gives you a unique perspective

02:50:33.700 | on different people throughout the world.

02:50:37.540 | And if you're a Roman Catholic, maybe don't read the Bible.

02:50:42.500 | Read one of the other texts,

02:50:43.660 | and that would be an interesting take.

02:50:45.820 | - I'm embarrassed to say that, first of all,

02:50:47.420 | I've never read the Bible, which is embarrassing to say.

02:50:50.540 | It's like I read a bunch of stuff about the Bible,

02:50:52.220 | not the Bible itself.

02:50:53.160 | And the same, not equating them,

02:50:55.220 | but I haven't read Marx directly.

02:50:58.560 | I haven't read "Mein Kampf" by Hitler directly.

02:51:01.180 | And it feels like sometimes,

02:51:02.380 | 'cause you think it's better to read stuff about the books,

02:51:06.660 | but ultimately, you won't,

02:51:08.360 | because the analysis will be better

02:51:10.460 | in the texts that followed it.

02:51:13.960 | But there's value to actually reading the actual words.

02:51:20.660 | Yeah, there's this power in the words

02:51:22.880 | that there's a reason why the Bible

02:51:25.920 | is one of the most impactful books ever.

02:51:28.700 | It's in those words,

02:51:32.120 | and it's of value to return to those words.

02:51:34.960 | - The Communist Manifesto is truly frightening

02:51:36.920 | if you read it in modern context.

02:51:40.340 | - It's worth reading.

02:51:42.800 | - Yeah. - Worth reading.

02:51:44.080 | So is "Mein Kampf" not obviously,

02:51:46.240 | well, it's not obvious,

02:51:48.000 | but it is not very well written.

02:51:50.720 | But all the ideas that led to the evil that is Hitler

02:51:53.560 | are all in there,

02:51:54.640 | which is fascinating to think about,

02:51:57.620 | because probably some of the world leaders at the time

02:51:59.920 | should have probably read the books.

02:52:01.020 | He outlined everything he's gonna do.

02:52:02.880 | You've mentioned, offline,

02:52:06.820 | you mentioned an Emerson quote that I really like.

02:52:08.580 | So let's try to end on this powerful quote.

02:52:12.440 | - "It's easy in the world

02:52:13.360 | "to live after the world's opinion.

02:52:14.940 | "It's easy in solitude to live after your own.

02:52:17.320 | "The great man is who, in the midst of the world,

02:52:19.560 | "keeps with perfect sweetness

02:52:20.760 | "the independence of solitude."

02:52:22.580 | - What does this quote mean to you?

02:52:26.440 | - It's kind of reinforces the idea

02:52:29.920 | that you're here to live your life,

02:52:33.200 | and that even when people are trying to

02:52:36.520 | influence you or comment on the decisions

02:52:43.640 | that you make for your life,

02:52:44.780 | you should have the strength to stick by

02:52:47.000 | living your life the way you want to live it.

02:52:50.440 | That there's one immutable truth for you,

02:52:53.440 | and it doesn't apply to everyone.

02:52:55.320 | And so people who,

02:52:56.820 | people who frown upon

02:53:02.820 | or judge the way that you live,

02:53:06.420 | because it's not, air quotes, conventional,

02:53:10.140 | their opinion should not be something that

02:53:14.720 | impacts the choices that you make.

02:53:17.080 | - You're in a relationship now.

02:53:18.600 | - Yes. - Is that deeply meaningful?

02:53:20.600 | Or are you ultimately still alone?

02:53:23.080 | Are you still just a man in the cold

02:53:24.880 | of the life that is suffering?

02:53:27.480 | - No, I'm a man who's warm,

02:53:29.320 | nustled in a bosom.

02:53:30.460 | - I don't think there's a better way to end, John.

02:53:34.840 | (John laughs)

02:53:37.360 | You're a friend, you're my coach.

02:53:39.240 | I'm sure we'll talk many more times in the future.

02:53:41.440 | Thanks for wasting all your time with me today.

02:53:44.600 | - Thanks, brother.

02:53:45.440 | - Thanks, Lex.

02:53:46.260 | I had an awesome time.

02:53:47.100 | Hope to be back soon.

02:53:47.920 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation with John Clark.

02:53:51.320 | And thank you to our sponsors.

02:53:53.200 | Theragun, the device I use

02:53:55.040 | for post-workout muscle recovery.

02:53:57.200 | Magic Spoon, low-carb, keto-friendly cereal

02:54:00.040 | that I think is delicious.

02:54:01.840 | 8sleep, a mattress that cools itself

02:54:04.740 | and gives me yet another reason to enjoy sleep.

02:54:07.720 | And finally, Cash App,

02:54:09.260 | the app I use to send money to friends.

02:54:11.740 | Please check out the sponsors in the description

02:54:14.560 | to get a discount and to support this podcast.

02:54:17.440 | If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube,

02:54:19.560 | review it with Five Stars on Apple Podcast,

02:54:21.920 | follow on Spotify, support on Patreon,

02:54:24.600 | or connect with me on Twitter @LexFriedman.

02:54:27.600 | And now, let me leave you with some words

02:54:29.640 | from Miyamoto Musashi.

02:54:32.240 | Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world.

02:54:36.740 | Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.

02:54:40.560 | (upbeat music)

02:54:43.140 | (upbeat music)

02:54:45.720 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

John Clarke: The Art of Fighting and the Pursuit of Excellence | Lex Fridman Podcast #143

Chapters