RPF0668-An_Immigrant_Success_Story-Broke_to_FI_in_10

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00:00:29.960 | Welcome to Radical Personal Finance, a show dedicated to providing you with the knowledge,

00:00:35.640 | skills, insight and encouragement you need to live a rich and meaningful life now while

00:00:40.080 | building a plan for financial freedom in 10 years or less.

00:00:43.800 | My guest today is John.

00:00:45.520 | John, you told me that you've done that, right?

00:00:48.440 | You have built financial freedom in 10 years or less, right?

00:00:51.360 | So we're going to hear your story.

00:00:52.680 | Definitely.

00:00:53.680 | And it's not 10 years or less.

00:00:54.720 | Maybe that's because I chose to live in an expensive part of the country that is Silicon

00:00:59.560 | Valley, so it took me a lot longer.

00:01:01.800 | And of course, I was not as frugal as I could be in the initial days and I still am not.

00:01:06.320 | So it took me a slightly longer 12 years, but I think it'll be an interesting episode

00:01:10.160 | for your listeners.

00:01:11.160 | So you were born and raised in India.

00:01:12.880 | That is correct.

00:01:13.880 | So tell us your story of how you ended up in the United States and then tell us a little

00:01:17.720 | bit about your financial freedom journey.

00:01:19.480 | Sure.

00:01:20.480 | So I was born in India and I think the advantage of being born in India is the fact that it

00:01:25.960 | has a pretty good demographic in terms of the urban area speaking English.

00:01:30.200 | So at least that outlet is there.

00:01:32.720 | But I think also in the fact that I was born in a stable family where my parents were always

00:01:37.600 | focused on education, ensured the fact that I was always keeping up with my grades, making

00:01:43.240 | sure that while the other kids were out partying or having fun, I was like, "Oh, let me do

00:01:48.000 | my homework.

00:01:49.000 | Let me keep up with the studies."

00:01:50.720 | Because I think with India and most of other Asian countries, which are highly populated,

00:01:55.520 | you either need to be at the top 10 or 20% if you want to be somewhere in life or you

00:02:00.680 | just stagnate and live along.

00:02:03.680 | So are you the doctor or are you the lawyer?

00:02:06.080 | Which one are you?

00:02:07.080 | Neither.

00:02:08.080 | Actually, I'm the engineer.

00:02:09.080 | Oh, you're the engineer and your brother's the doctor.

00:02:10.600 | No, actually, the weird part is he took science as well and then he came along into the similar

00:02:17.080 | kind of fields.

00:02:18.080 | But yeah, I think those are the similar kind of areas which you can go, a doctor, a lawyer,

00:02:23.320 | an engineer, and those are kind of the respected professions.

00:02:26.240 | Because way back when I was in India and growing up, it was a very closed economy, I would

00:02:30.680 | say, and these were the professions which were more paying well.

00:02:34.660 | There was a government sector and that was it, but the private sector was not really

00:02:38.520 | organized or opened up.

00:02:40.440 | But recently when I went back, like last year or the year before, I saw that the economy

00:02:44.160 | has totally opened up.

00:02:45.280 | Now you can get a job in marketing or something as well.

00:02:48.560 | What do you mean by closed economy?

00:02:49.960 | You mean that...

00:02:50.960 | How do you mean?

00:02:52.040 | So there was not a lot of foreign direct investment, so you not have a multinational coming in.

00:02:56.040 | You would have more or less the local companies.

00:02:58.440 | So your earning potential would be limited, your career path would be limited, and those

00:03:03.400 | kind of factors would inhibit how much you could earn, how much you could save, how much

00:03:07.000 | you could invest, and how free could you live.

00:03:09.040 | So the idea is previously if you wanted to work in marketing, for example, you could

00:03:14.500 | maybe parlay that into a job at a local firm, but there wasn't a big upside potential.

00:03:19.860 | That is correct.

00:03:20.860 | So let's say it was going to be a relatively small Indian firm, but now you can go into

00:03:24.560 | marketing and you work with a big global multinational and have massive career potential.

00:03:28.680 | Exactly.

00:03:29.680 | Understood.

00:03:30.680 | Understood.

00:03:31.680 | Okay, so keep going.

00:03:32.680 | Sure.

00:03:33.680 | So I think that was an important factor, and both my parents initially were working, and

00:03:37.040 | at some point in time my mother decided it makes sense to actually work with us at home,

00:03:42.640 | and she actually decided to quit her job and then work and make sure we got our studies

00:03:47.140 | done, our good grades.

00:03:48.880 | So that journey continued, and then after that I did my engineering studies.

00:03:53.420 | In India?

00:03:54.420 | In India.

00:03:55.420 | Is it common that Indian mothers would choose to stay home with the children?

00:03:59.200 | So I think it's a mix, honestly.

00:04:03.480 | Not many would stay.

00:04:05.200 | It depends on the circumstances and if they are able to contribute to the education.

00:04:08.800 | Luckily, my dad had a government job, and my mom had a government job too, and at some

00:04:13.240 | point in time because of, so we were never rich, we just had a middle class lifestyle.

00:04:20.480 | I mean, to be honest, even like we would get clothes only for our birthday and then Christmas

00:04:24.640 | maybe, and not a huge birthday party, nothing other than your relatives calling to just

00:04:30.520 | wish you for your birthday, but that was it, right?

00:04:32.480 | So we never, I wouldn't say we were starving or went hungry, but we had a pretty decent

00:04:36.880 | life but not a crazy extravagant life, so.

00:04:40.600 | Okay.

00:04:41.600 | Go on.

00:04:42.600 | So I think at that point in time I decided, okay, it makes sense for me to do engineering.

00:04:46.760 | The good part about education back in India is it is merit-based in the sense that if

00:04:53.360 | I have 100 seats available for engineering, 50% would be available at a very cheap rate.

00:04:59.700 | The other 50% would be available at eight times the cost, so you would have other students

00:05:04.060 | subsidizing you, and you need to then figure out based on your grades which category you

00:05:09.520 | fall in.

00:05:10.520 | Do you fall in the higher category of payment or the lower category of payment?

00:05:13.920 | And at some point in time I said, I don't want that debt on my, although my parents

00:05:18.720 | were willing to share that and they were like, okay, you can go ahead and choose whatever

00:05:22.520 | you want.

00:05:23.520 | I was like, okay, it makes more sense for me to take the effort to then work on my grades

00:05:27.800 | to make sure that on a merit-based, they have an entrance exam, so make sure I have those

00:05:32.080 | necessary grades so that I'm in the top of the class and thereby I have my choice of

00:05:36.040 | the free seat or what is called the lower payment seat and then have someone else subsidize

00:05:40.880 | me.

00:05:41.880 | So I think in that factor I was lucky and that was more or less my engineering background.

00:05:47.560 | Is engineering school, is that kind of analogous to the American school, 18 to 22 type of thing?

00:05:52.520 | Correct.

00:05:53.520 | That is very analogous to the American school.

00:05:54.760 | So you graduated with a bachelor's degree in engineering at 22.

00:05:58.000 | Right.

00:05:59.000 | And then after that I decided to work in the local computer companies over there for a

00:06:04.800 | year or two and then incidentally when I was working over there, I thought it made sense

00:06:08.760 | for me to work on projects which they were doing for a multinational firm like GE.

00:06:13.800 | As I was working on those projects, I gained enough knowledge and expertise that one of

00:06:19.040 | the big five consulting firms of the US wanted to bid on similar projects to do for that

00:06:24.560 | firm.

00:06:25.640 | And then I was like, okay, it makes sense for me to apply and see if I can try my luck

00:06:28.880 | over there.

00:06:29.880 | And fortunately, I got through the interviews and all of it and they were like, hey, why

00:06:33.880 | don't you actually come here and see how it works for it?

00:06:36.880 | And I was like, huh?

00:06:38.320 | No one in my family before that had actually left India.

00:06:42.600 | More or less what my parents had done was actually move from the villages to the city

00:06:45.800 | of Bombay, but that was it.

00:06:47.800 | Nothing more than that.

00:06:49.080 | And so it was a big step.

00:06:50.080 | The only thing I knew about the US I'd never visited.

00:06:52.440 | It was only watching episodes of Friends on television, but that's it.

00:06:56.780 | Nothing more than that.

00:06:57.780 | And I was like, okay, let me see what I can do.

00:07:00.000 | So I had a job offer in hand and then-

00:07:02.160 | Wait a second.

00:07:03.200 | On Friends, no one had jobs.

00:07:04.560 | They just sat around and did nothing.

00:07:06.160 | So why did you get a job?

00:07:07.760 | Well, Chandler had some jobs and Ross had a decent enough job.

00:07:13.760 | So I think that works.

00:07:14.760 | Every now and then they would show them at work when it fit into the plot line.

00:07:17.160 | It's the funniest thing about soap operas and sitcoms and such is it's just, I mean,

00:07:24.880 | it doesn't parallel life in any way.

00:07:26.920 | My wife and I laugh about it, how you never see people working.

00:07:29.440 | You never see, it's a totally different foreign thing.

00:07:33.080 | Right.

00:07:34.080 | So keep going.

00:07:35.080 | I have to record you.

00:07:36.080 | But at least the lifestyle I think helped me understand, okay, oh, this is what happens.

00:07:38.520 | There are coffee shops, people go in and sit around, talk around.

00:07:43.720 | Because for me it was all a foreign concept.

00:07:45.480 | I'd never even left the country, although we had traveled extensively within the country,

00:07:48.760 | never left the country.

00:07:49.760 | So I was like, okay, so I have a job offer, then how much money do I have?

00:07:53.160 | And then finally had just $1,000 cash in my pocket.

00:07:56.440 | And I said, okay, let me take the shot and come over here and see how it goes.

00:07:59.840 | And the scary part is-- You've been able to save $1,000 working in

00:08:03.120 | India.

00:08:04.120 | Yes.

00:08:05.120 | Okay.

00:08:06.120 | And that was partially between, I would say $500 and then $500 from my parents.

00:08:09.520 | And then I was like, okay, let me take this cash and let me take a job offer and see how

00:08:12.680 | it goes.

00:08:13.840 | And then I landed over here, but that was all I landed with.

00:08:17.320 | Do you have any idea how much your parents were earning in their government jobs at the

00:08:20.720 | time, about that time?

00:08:21.720 | What would be the standard pay for a government worker?

00:08:24.280 | I did not have a good idea.

00:08:26.080 | And in fact, I don't do even now.

00:08:29.160 | I think we talked about finances in general, but not the specific figures.

00:08:33.520 | Okay.

00:08:34.520 | So you came to the United States with how much in your pocket then?

00:08:36.680 | Just $1,000.

00:08:37.680 | $1,000.

00:08:38.680 | And where did you land?

00:08:40.100 | So I landed on the East Coast in Connecticut.

00:08:42.840 | And I was there, I was like, huh, I hope I have enough money and they pay me on time

00:08:47.320 | in the next 15 days because A, I signed a lease for like $500 rent because I will soon

00:08:52.880 | run out of money and B, then I don't have money for a plane ticket back home.

00:08:57.800 | And this is kind of a, it's a big fight consulting firm, but then also you have to remember that

00:09:02.720 | this is kind of the timeframe where firms like Arthur Anderson just suddenly went belly

00:09:06.840 | up and then it's, yeah, it's scary.

00:09:09.200 | So that was a big risk I would say, looking back.

00:09:12.240 | And I was like, maybe I was a little crazy taking that chance, but I said, okay, let

00:09:15.680 | me come here.

00:09:16.680 | And then it was not easy at that point in time because everything like even buying a

00:09:20.760 | cell phone or needing to sign a lease, people want social security, people want credit history

00:09:26.280 | and had none of that other than like a job offer.

00:09:29.720 | And even opening a bank account was not easy.

00:09:32.760 | So I think I had to go through all the struggles.

00:09:35.240 | And that's when I started becoming interested in finance because in India at that point

00:09:39.080 | in time, at least credit cards were absolutely no, no, no one had credit cards to be honest.

00:09:45.580 | So did all of that and then tried to slowly go on the internet, learn things.

00:09:50.320 | Even back home, we did not have good internet.

00:09:51.880 | In fact, growing up, we did not even have a telephone in the house.

00:09:54.960 | It was so uncommon.

00:09:56.320 | If you have to use a telephone, you would go to like in London, you see this telephones

00:10:00.640 | along the street, you would typically need to go there, put a coin in and dial someone,

00:10:04.400 | but no one had telephones at home.

00:10:06.100 | So that's kind of how we were living.

00:10:08.680 | - So did the company, the Big Five Consulting Company, did they offer any kind of special

00:10:14.660 | services for you since you were a new immigrant?

00:10:18.400 | Or did they just say, come and be at work on Monday and we'll pay you in two weeks?

00:10:23.040 | - Yeah, they had kind of sent me some documents, but in terms of, okay, orientation and how

00:10:28.800 | you would acclimate yourself to the US, but not a lot of onboarding I would say or say

00:10:34.640 | that, okay, you can be here for a month, you can get used to it and then start working

00:10:38.880 | after a month after you have everything set up.

00:10:41.800 | - Right.

00:10:42.800 | Did you have family or friends in Connecticut or were you alone?

00:10:47.160 | - I had no one, so I was the first of my family to leave the country.

00:10:50.600 | - So how did you find an apartment to live in?

00:10:54.680 | - So before I moved over here, when the company told me, oh, this is where you'd be working,

00:10:59.560 | I looked online and looked at places which could rent and that's where I found, okay,

00:11:04.080 | there's an apartment nearby because I don't even know how to drive at that point in time

00:11:07.840 | when I come to the country, right?

00:11:08.840 | So I was like, okay, there's something walking distance, let me reach out to these landlords

00:11:13.020 | and see who will accept me.

00:11:14.520 | - Just like an on Craigslist?

00:11:16.120 | - Yes.

00:11:17.120 | - So a $500 a month apartment in Connecticut, was it a slum?

00:11:21.800 | Was it adequate?

00:11:22.800 | - It was adequate because I would not say it was in the center, it was not something

00:11:26.720 | like Hartford or something, it was way out in the countryside.

00:11:28.880 | - Okay, got it, okay.

00:11:29.880 | Just 'cause it's interesting, one of the things, as you know, I've been a long time listener

00:11:34.760 | to the show, I'm always fascinated in immigrant stories because it's almost the perfect starting

00:11:41.600 | fresh, which is basically what you're talking about.

00:11:43.800 | For those of us who were born and raised in the United States, you kind of have one way

00:11:47.440 | of thinking, but immigrants have a totally different way of thinking.

00:11:50.720 | And I'm always amazed at how you wind up with immigrant communities and you wind up with

00:11:55.360 | all the Nigerians live in this apartment complex or the Indians have this and how so many people

00:12:01.240 | who are earning low wages, we'll get to your wages, you weren't earning low wages, but

00:12:05.760 | how many people who starting with nothing figure out how to live in very expensive cities.

00:12:10.840 | It's a mystery to me because it's not, I mean, I've thought about it and I think it's possible,

00:12:17.400 | but it's hard for those of us who are not used to finding those deals and negotiating

00:12:23.160 | those things to know how to do it.

00:12:25.720 | For me, if I were gonna go to Connecticut and I were just kind of the normal Joshua,

00:12:29.840 | not the radical Joshua, like you just look at certain types of places that are what you're

00:12:33.800 | accustomed to and you wind up in the automatic $1,500 a month range, like that's the comfortable

00:12:38.560 | middle-class range.

00:12:40.120 | But yet the world is not that way and I've talked to immigrants from all over the place

00:12:44.200 | who were able to find the deals.

00:12:45.200 | That's why I'm interested in the details.

00:12:47.160 | So you rented an apartment, you got a cell phone and you went to work.

00:12:50.680 | I went to work, yes.

00:12:51.680 | So then after two weeks they paid you and you said, "Okay, now what do I do with this

00:12:54.560 | check?"

00:12:55.560 | Now what do I do with this check?

00:12:56.560 | Yeah, so it was actually a direct deposit to be honest at that point in time.

00:13:00.120 | So you've been able to get an account.

00:13:01.120 | By that time I was able to get an account, but I still had no credit card at all.

00:13:05.240 | And at that point in time I did not even know about the concept of secured credit card because

00:13:08.600 | I was researching just the basics of utilities, cell phone, and I did not even think about

00:13:13.760 | credit card at that point in time.

00:13:15.120 | So I was like, "Okay."

00:13:16.120 | And I would use my debit card everywhere I went and this continued for more than a year

00:13:19.840 | and a half or two years.

00:13:20.880 | I was just using my debit card everywhere.

00:13:23.160 | How did the process of getting a work visa function?

00:13:27.240 | So the company which sponsored me actually applied for an H-1B visa and then I had to

00:13:32.440 | go to the consulate, get it stamped and then come on an H-1B visa.

00:13:35.880 | Okay, and they were used to sponsoring tech workers and knowledgeable engineers.

00:13:40.160 | So do you remember your starting salary at that point?

00:13:44.120 | I think it would be $50,000, yeah, around that range.

00:13:48.680 | So continue the money story then.

00:13:50.520 | Sure.

00:13:51.520 | So then after that, the good part about after I got kind of stable, seeing that I'm acclimated

00:13:56.840 | to the US lifestyle, I still didn't know how to drive and I still don't know about credit

00:13:59.880 | cards or something, but I started trying to research about finance and how do I invest

00:14:03.840 | this money, what do I do with this money.

00:14:05.760 | The company had options like 401k, but I was like, I don't know how long I'm going to be

00:14:09.640 | here, what do I do if I need to leave the country or if the company goes belly up, what

00:14:14.800 | do I do with the money?

00:14:15.800 | So I just thought, okay, I'm not even going to opt in the 401k.

00:14:18.440 | And looking back, that was the worst decision ever.

00:14:21.920 | Not so much for the tax savings, but the fact that the company used to offer a 50% match

00:14:26.720 | and I'm like, oh my God, I just wasted all the free money there.

00:14:32.040 | And that's when I really needed the money, I could have used it, but yeah, it is what

00:14:35.920 | it is.

00:14:36.920 | So you can only know that much.

00:14:37.920 | And then, yeah.

00:14:38.920 | And it's hard.

00:14:39.920 | The hard part about, I think, the US system is that you would have coworkers who are nice,

00:14:44.960 | they would chit chat with you at work, but not a lot of them would be open or willing

00:14:48.720 | to talk about finances.

00:14:50.160 | And I think that's where I'm more attracted to the personal finance community because

00:14:53.960 | people are open.

00:14:55.080 | Some may be anonymously blogging, but at least people talk, share their finances, or at least

00:15:00.000 | educate other people.

00:15:01.520 | Whereas if you go to a typical American workplace, and even in this day and age where I live

00:15:05.280 | in Silicon Valley, people would be not very open with talking about their finances.

00:15:10.840 | Whereas if you look back in India, where I was working for the one or two years, people

00:15:15.680 | would not only share a high level range of their salary, but also, hey, I'm kind of investing

00:15:21.120 | in this, I'm planning to buy this apartment, what do you think?

00:15:24.260 | They would bounce ideas off each other and kind of help you figure out what you're doing.

00:15:29.460 | So I think that's, I don't know what it is with America, but a lot of the American workplaces,

00:15:35.600 | absolutely, they will discuss other stuff.

00:15:38.080 | Like they will discuss sports, they'll discuss politics, but they will never discuss money.

00:15:40.920 | It's a very taboo subject.

00:15:42.880 | - You know, I wonder what it's like on other cultures.

00:15:45.600 | I wonder if there's something unique about the American culture versus the Indian culture

00:15:50.200 | and why.

00:15:51.200 | I don't have any knowledge of that.

00:15:53.120 | Doesn't seem wise to me to talk about money in a professional space.

00:15:55.760 | I wouldn't do it.

00:15:57.840 | But I don't know if it's just cultural or if there's good defensible reasons.

00:16:03.300 | So lay out then the arc of your career as far as what happened in your career.

00:16:08.880 | You started at $50,000 with a big five consulting company.

00:16:12.020 | And you were doing software engineering?

00:16:13.760 | - Software engineering.

00:16:14.760 | And at that point in time, I also wanted to meet my dual goal of travel across the country.

00:16:20.180 | And what I did is I asked them, hey, every time I'm on a new project, instead of like

00:16:24.660 | sticking in the same location, can I pick different clients?

00:16:27.540 | And they were like, yes, you can obviously pick different clients.

00:16:29.740 | So what I did is I moved all along the East Coast, then I moved to the Midwest, and then

00:16:34.700 | I moved finally to the West Coast.

00:16:37.080 | And all along this journey, I was also trying to make sure I keep my career up.

00:16:40.700 | And in fact, when I launched my blog, and I still see this quite common in Silicon Valley

00:16:45.460 | where people don't take care of their career, and that's a major factor which I see can

00:16:51.140 | help you achieve financial freedom.

00:16:53.720 | Most of like, you can only frugal so much and cut cost to a certain limit, but your

00:16:59.060 | expansion potential with money is unlimited if you keep earning more and more.

00:17:03.300 | So that's why one of the first blog posts which I wrote was about how to earn more money.

00:17:08.080 | So basically network with other people, including recruiters, or then I got my LinkedIn profile

00:17:12.220 | up and running.

00:17:13.220 | I talked to other people, I tried to figure out, okay, if I jump companies, what do I

00:17:17.140 | do?

00:17:18.140 | The fact that I had a visa made it more challenging than other people who are American-born citizens

00:17:22.700 | that you could just get up and leave any point in time, because to transfer a visa takes

00:17:26.420 | like an act of Congress.

00:17:27.420 | It's just like, it's a long, lot of process.

00:17:30.420 | So it's definitely not easy.

00:17:31.780 | And then you have to deal with the government agencies, and then you can anytime get queries,

00:17:35.620 | and then you have to answer it, you need a lawyer.

00:17:37.340 | So it's difficult.

00:17:38.620 | So at least within the company, I stayed there for six years, but I did try to make sure,

00:17:43.380 | okay, I figure out with my boss what's important to them, what would help them take on additional

00:17:47.820 | responsibility, see how I could get promoted internally within the organization.

00:17:51.740 | And in fact, go to some locations or hard projects where no one wanted to go.

00:17:55.160 | So my last assignment, in fact, was in Minnesota, and no one wants to be in 40 below freezing,

00:17:59.700 | but I was like, okay, sure, why not?

00:18:01.500 | If it gives me more money and more promotion and access to the higher ups, why not?

00:18:05.980 | I'll just take it up.

00:18:06.980 | And I did that for two and a half years.

00:18:08.260 | So I think taking on those opportunities at work definitely helped me reach a place where

00:18:13.380 | I could then say, okay, now I'm much more comfortable, I have grown enough of my bank

00:18:17.900 | balance.

00:18:18.900 | At this point in time, for my financial journey, I'm just like kind of saving money, squirreling

00:18:22.820 | it up.

00:18:23.820 | I'm not even investing it because I don't know what to do and what I need it for.

00:18:27.660 | But I'm kind of just like, okay, I'm just saving what I need, I spend it.

00:18:31.820 | And I was not living very frugally because at some point in time, like you said, after

00:18:35.300 | a year or so, then I graduated to the 1500 apartment.

00:18:38.780 | And then I'm like, okay, I should like live a little better lifestyle.

00:18:42.040 | So that's where I totally was.

00:18:44.980 | Not spendthrift, but at least trying to say, okay, I need to buy a car, what do I need

00:18:49.140 | to do?

00:18:50.140 | I need to take driving lessons, I took driving lessons, bought a new car, brand new.

00:18:54.060 | It was a reasonable purchase, I would say a Toyota.

00:18:56.740 | So it's at least definitely I know it'll last me for a while, but new car and then it was

00:19:01.060 | like, oh, a chunk of my savings gone.

00:19:02.620 | But now it is our mobility and I have ability to interact with other people and socialize.

00:19:07.980 | So kind of went along that path.

00:19:09.580 | And then when I was in Minnesota, actually, I was contacted by a company in Silicon Valley

00:19:13.140 | saying, hey, do you want to come and work with us?

00:19:15.020 | And I was like, wondering, should I make this move?

00:19:18.260 | But then I realized that for my career, it makes good sense to be in the tech space,

00:19:22.260 | in the tech jobs where are all in Silicon Valley.

00:19:24.780 | So then I decided to move over to Silicon Valley.

00:19:27.200 | And since then, I've been moving companies every two or three years.

00:19:30.780 | And that's what I recommend to everyone, no matter what.

00:19:33.740 | I mean, loyalty is overrated.

00:19:36.360 | As long as you're working, you can have that in other aspects of your relationship.

00:19:39.600 | But when you're working, you should definitely see, okay, can I move to the next company?

00:19:44.100 | And it's always easier to get a higher raise when you move jobs to a new company versus

00:19:48.380 | no matter how well you perform, your current company is not going to give you a 20, 30%

00:19:52.780 | raise.

00:19:53.780 | - So trace out your income history from starting at 50,000 a year up through today or the last

00:19:59.180 | job or whenever you're willing to share.

00:20:01.980 | What were the increases like?

00:20:04.320 | - So I would say the increases were roughly 10 to 15%.

00:20:08.700 | At my last jobs, I would say I'm roughly slightly over 300 in terms of total compensation.

00:20:15.380 | - And the reason that you're valuable to your employees, have you done other studies, other

00:20:19.420 | degrees or credentialization?

00:20:22.260 | Or what makes you valuable to your employees?

00:20:25.260 | What makes you more valuable to your employers today than 10 years ago when you first arrived?

00:20:29.580 | - I would say experience is more valuable in the tech industry versus credentialing.

00:20:34.460 | I tried to do some definitely project program management courses and some of them were sponsored

00:20:40.380 | by my employers at different points in time, but none of them involved full-time quitting

00:20:45.140 | work.

00:20:46.140 | There were some programs which were of course marketed saying MBA and all of it, but then

00:20:49.740 | I did the ROI on it and I'm like, I'll be out of the job market for two years.

00:20:53.900 | I'll be not earning.

00:20:54.900 | I'll be paying this humongous fees, which is like crazy to me.

00:20:59.700 | And then I was like, okay, it doesn't make sense.

00:21:01.140 | I kept continuing in the organizations and kept moving and maybe starting a little more

00:21:05.680 | on the newer technologies and then trying to apply it and trying to be more valuable

00:21:09.120 | to the employers.

00:21:10.420 | At some point in time, even in the tech industry, you may know all your technologies, but then

00:21:14.740 | your people, your interpersonal skills count a lot more.

00:21:17.520 | And that's where I think people are able to then assess if you're a valuable employee,

00:21:21.900 | can you move up the management chain?

00:21:23.420 | So at my last jobs, I'm no longer doing coding hands-on, but actually managing teams, managing

00:21:28.700 | larger programs, budgets of millions of dollars.

00:21:31.820 | And I think that's where you can kind of move either in technical capacity or in a managerial

00:21:35.860 | capacity, but kind of upward mobility.

00:21:38.260 | - Absolutely.

00:21:39.260 | So how did you come across the ideas of financial independence?

00:21:44.500 | - So the weird part is at some point in time when I'm working and Silicon Valley, to be

00:21:48.660 | honest, is a brutal place.

00:21:50.260 | It looks great, like you watch the episodes on HBO, and most of those are actually true,

00:21:56.060 | but the fact that they offer you free food, they offer you laundry on site, they have

00:21:59.940 | a notary and everything on site means that they want to actually live on campus.

00:22:04.580 | They don't want you to have the thought process that I leave campus.

00:22:08.160 | And the reason for that is they expect you to kind of be working.

00:22:11.300 | So if you are doing only 60 hours a week, you're kind of a slacker compared to your

00:22:16.060 | coworkers.

00:22:17.260 | And that's where I think at some point in time I was burnt out and thinking, "Wouldn't

00:22:20.740 | it be nice?"

00:22:21.740 | I'm like looking at my expenses and thinking, "I don't, I have this money stocked up, saved."

00:22:26.620 | I'm like kind of investing somewhat, haphazardly buying individual stocks, listening to Jim

00:22:30.820 | Kramer and figuring out what to do.

00:22:33.300 | But I was like, "I need to now know how to actually manage my money, how to invest it,

00:22:37.900 | and what I need to do in order to get out of it."

00:22:42.180 | And one of the things which also was a trigger point was I remember clearly a meeting where

00:22:46.820 | my VP was suddenly one week saying, "Oh, my sister is not well and she's very sick."

00:22:54.260 | And I was like, "Huh, are you going to go and visit her?"

00:22:56.380 | And she's like, "I would like to, but we have this important delivery coming up, maybe after

00:23:01.300 | that."

00:23:02.300 | And then a week later in the meeting, I was in the same meeting and she got a phone call

00:23:06.900 | and then she said, "I have to take this."

00:23:08.260 | And she went outside and she came back saying, "Hey, my sister passed away."

00:23:10.980 | And I think that was a turning point.

00:23:13.340 | And I was thinking you might be a VP earning more than half a million or close to a million,

00:23:19.100 | and yet if someone is telling you when and where you need to show up to work and you

00:23:23.660 | don't have the freedom to get up and take care of your loved ones, then I'm like, "You

00:23:28.180 | are not free.

00:23:29.180 | You are a high-paid slave.

00:23:30.620 | You are still a slave no matter what, if you're high-paid or not."

00:23:33.900 | So that's-

00:23:34.900 | That's exactly what the term wage slave means.

00:23:36.820 | That's why we use the term wage slave.

00:23:39.140 | If you were a slave in the era of chattel slavery, you had to work a certain amount.

00:23:45.980 | Your boss would tell you what to do and you had to do it, but your boss also provided

00:23:50.420 | everything for you.

00:23:51.540 | They provided housing, they provided food, and so the boss had a responsibility to provide

00:23:56.860 | for you because otherwise his investment in you as a slave, he wouldn't get his money

00:24:02.060 | back from investing in you as a slave.

00:24:04.860 | Today there are many people who are wage slaves, that they are responsible and fully beholden

00:24:10.100 | to do certain work, but now instead of the boss providing you with a house as part of

00:24:14.860 | your compensation package, you have to earn money to go and get a mortgage to pay for

00:24:18.420 | your house.

00:24:19.420 | Right.

00:24:20.420 | And instead of your boss providing you with food, you have to provide it with food.

00:24:23.060 | And yet if you don't ever accumulate capital, you can never buy your freedom.

00:24:27.460 | You wind up being a wage slave, and that's exactly what the term means.

00:24:33.740 | And I can't think of a better example than what you just said, when you can't even go

00:24:38.060 | and you don't have the autonomy and freedom to say, "I'm going to go and visit a dying

00:24:43.180 | relative," because you have to deliver for the boss.

00:24:45.940 | You have to deliver the big project.

00:24:47.460 | Yes.

00:24:48.460 | And that's even at a higher level, right?

00:24:50.300 | You think, oh, initially when you start off as a software engineer, think, "Oh, one day

00:24:53.700 | if I reach VP level, that'll be a great dream come true."

00:24:56.140 | But then you're like, "Oh, even people at that level, at a VP or senior VP level, even

00:25:00.980 | at the C level, they're still beholden to someone else."

00:25:03.740 | Right.

00:25:04.740 | Yeah, that's where you think about the ideal career path.

00:25:08.140 | And there certainly can be freedom that comes as you go up the career path.

00:25:15.940 | But company culture makes a big difference.

00:25:19.260 | And I think there are companies that have a culture that allows people more freedom.

00:25:26.140 | It may be harder to find a Silicon Valley, maybe not, I don't know.

00:25:29.380 | But if you're in a company that has a culture of overwork in that way, then you don't feel

00:25:35.740 | the choice to do it.

00:25:37.700 | And I don't know what you do except say, "I'm going to go choose a company with a different

00:25:41.460 | culture," or, "I'm going to be the CEO of my company and have a different perspective."

00:25:46.100 | But certainly it does make a big difference.

00:25:47.620 | True.

00:25:48.620 | And I think the fact that you are so dependent on your living from the wages you get every

00:25:54.320 | month and you think, "Oh, if my wages get stopped for six months or one year," I mean,

00:25:59.180 | ideally you could just be like, "I'm not going to show up to work and in the next six months

00:26:03.260 | to one year I'll find some other gig if I don't find anything."

00:26:05.900 | But I think the fact that you're so addicted to that monthly income coming in and that

00:26:09.780 | you need that to live for your daily life, I think that makes it harder to just suddenly

00:26:13.420 | say, "I just don't care."

00:26:15.060 | And to stereotype, I think it can be especially hard for people in environments like Silicon

00:26:20.500 | Valley because there are very high hard costs.

00:26:24.740 | Your rent is high.

00:26:26.260 | Your mortgage payment is huge.

00:26:28.620 | But then there are also lifestyle costs that are considered to be normal that would make

00:26:33.240 | someone who's involved in that lifestyle feel very embarrassed if they stopped the things

00:26:39.340 | they wear, the things they eat, the things they do, the things they drink.

00:26:42.780 | Just it's a culture where, at least what's popularized and what is common among the glitterati,

00:26:49.540 | it's a culture of high embedded expenses.

00:26:52.740 | And I think it's the same.

00:26:53.740 | It's not just Silicon Valley.

00:26:54.740 | A lot of it is the big city culture, the afternoon Starbucks, you're a weirdo if you don't partake

00:27:01.980 | in all of it.

00:27:03.340 | And so when you sit down, I've done the analysis for workers in those situations sometimes,

00:27:07.580 | unless you're a real curmudgeon and you're totally comfortable just being doing your

00:27:11.500 | own thing and you're known as that, which isn't necessarily good for your career path.

00:27:15.500 | It doesn't endear you to your coworkers.

00:27:17.500 | Coworkers don't really want to step up and say, "Yeah, you should promote Bob because

00:27:22.820 | Bob just gets...

00:27:25.140 | Nobody likes Bob because Bob makes them feel bad."

00:27:27.580 | So there's a balance there.

00:27:28.780 | But in the big city, corporate, high level, professional culture, which is largely of

00:27:36.020 | young people, single people, there's so many embedded expenses with the work lifestyle

00:27:42.420 | that when people come out of that, if they lose a job, they often just struggle with

00:27:48.180 | how do I even adjust, how do I live in this place without my daily latte to beat the stereotype.

00:27:58.300 | It's really tough.

00:27:59.300 | And it's not making it up.

00:28:00.940 | These are tough.

00:28:01.940 | This is a cultural expectation that people have to figure out how to deal with elegantly.

00:28:06.940 | - Right.

00:28:07.940 | And I think the most important part is the fixed cost.

00:28:11.300 | At some point in time, the variable cost like the lattes, you can just eliminate, but the

00:28:14.700 | fixed cost is what gets you.

00:28:16.100 | So you need to figure out a way to make sure your fixed costs are at least stable or you

00:28:19.620 | have them in control.

00:28:20.620 | - Right.

00:28:21.620 | So I want to talk about the strategies that you have used and are using.

00:28:25.540 | So from the time that you landed in the US to the time when after learning about finance,

00:28:32.580 | you came to a point where you said, "I think I'm financially independent."

00:28:34.980 | How many years was that?

00:28:35.980 | - So at that point in time, I did not even...

00:28:38.300 | It was 12 years, but at that point in time, I told you the VP experience, but I was not

00:28:42.220 | even at that point in time figuring out if I'm financially independent or not.

00:28:45.820 | All I knew was I need to get out and I need to figure out an alternative path where I

00:28:50.660 | have the option that I can say no to them.

00:28:52.940 | And I'm like, "What is the amount of money and how do I know that?"

00:28:57.260 | Because like I mentioned, my parents were government employees, so they would get a

00:29:02.700 | pension whereas over here, I'm a private sector person, so I have nothing to fall back on.

00:29:06.620 | It's not that I know, "Okay, this is the amount I'll get every month."

00:29:09.020 | And I'm like, "What is the amount I need per month to live on?"

00:29:12.220 | And at that point in time, I'm not even tracking my expenses.

00:29:14.460 | So I have no idea how much is my expenses.

00:29:16.700 | I have money.

00:29:17.700 | I know it's in the bank, it's invested, but I don't even know how much that return throws

00:29:21.980 | off.

00:29:22.980 | So that's when I got interested in personal finance, started looking at multiple things.

00:29:25.900 | And that's when I also came across your podcast.

00:29:27.780 | And then I think one of the first podcasts I listened to was Early Retirement Extreme,

00:29:33.340 | and he's based out of San Francisco, Jacob Fischke, right?

00:29:36.420 | And I was like, "This guy's crazy if he can do that in San Francisco living on like $20,000

00:29:41.180 | or something lower than that."

00:29:42.260 | I believe at that point in time.

00:29:43.260 | And I was like, "This is really fascinating."

00:29:45.100 | So then I went back, I listened to some more episodes, I went and read some personal finance

00:29:49.020 | blogs, and then I slowly figured out, "Okay, at least as a rule of thumb, you can use the

00:29:53.380 | 4% rule, you can accumulate 25X your annual expenses and assets and have that kind of

00:29:58.100 | thing."

00:29:59.100 | So that gave me a roadmap and said, "Okay, if I hit this number, then I should consider

00:30:03.740 | myself financially independent."

00:30:05.800 | It might not line up perfectly.

00:30:07.760 | Life may throw things at you, but at least I know, "Okay, it's kind of a high level,

00:30:12.500 | some safety comfort factor."

00:30:13.900 | And then I can be like, walk into my next job and say, "Hey, I don't care."

00:30:18.020 | Because although I'm financially independent, my last job, which I then said, "Okay, I don't

00:30:23.980 | want to work anymore."

00:30:25.100 | And I was thinking, "Should I work or should I not work?"

00:30:27.220 | And I had an offer from Amazon and a bunch of other companies, Silicon Valley organizations.

00:30:32.220 | And then one organization, which is not Silicon Valley, but still based in that neighborhood,

00:30:36.260 | so it's not tech, but it's still based in that neighborhood, gave me an offer.

00:30:39.940 | And I was like, "Should I take this up because A, it's going to be less stress, and B, more

00:30:44.700 | importantly, I like the people I interacted with all through the interview process, but

00:30:49.820 | then the fact that the company was a little far away and I have to take BART, which is

00:30:53.220 | a local train over there, and connectivity in Silicon Valley through the local trains

00:30:57.100 | is not the best."

00:30:58.100 | So I was like, I was honest and I said, "Hey, I really like you all.

00:31:01.540 | I might decide to come and work for you all, but I don't even want to even commute to work

00:31:06.540 | every day."

00:31:07.540 | And they said, "You seem that you have done really well in your career.

00:31:11.180 | You interviewed well.

00:31:12.440 | Everyone on the team likes you.

00:31:13.440 | You don't even need to come to work physically every day.

00:31:15.740 | You can just come in once a week, make sure your meetings are on that day, and then work

00:31:20.020 | remote for the rest of the days."

00:31:21.600 | And I was like, "That is amazing."

00:31:23.260 | I mean, I would never, ever get that option in most of the other companies.

00:31:27.440 | And this is where I thought, "Okay, this is really freeing because A, I don't need the

00:31:30.700 | money so I could actually go to them in the interview process and be honest and say, 'I

00:31:34.420 | don't want your job.

00:31:35.900 | But if I don't need to come to work, then I would definitely take this job.'"

00:31:39.500 | And then they are like, "Okay, why not?"

00:31:41.940 | Because if I was not financially free, I would be afraid of even asking or making that demand

00:31:46.740 | right in the interview process.

00:31:48.020 | So I think that's where it helped me.

00:31:49.780 | And then I was like, "Oh, this is a nice gig."

00:31:51.800 | Because commute time saved is amazing.

00:31:54.580 | I mean, that is the biggest stress of everyone.

00:31:57.120 | Even if it's like a 30-minute commute one way, it's one hour of your life wasted.

00:32:00.220 | And then you have to deal with the traffic, the stress.

00:32:01.220 | - Hey, hey, people can listen to Radical Personal Finance.

00:32:03.740 | It's not wasted.

00:32:04.740 | - Yeah, so it's like, oh, I was like, "Oh, that's amazing."

00:32:08.380 | - Right, right.

00:32:09.380 | No, definitely, it's a lifestyle improvement for sure.

00:32:12.460 | So you think that, is it accurate to say that your personal psychology, the strength and

00:32:20.020 | the confidence that you had from being financially independent helped you to be a much stronger

00:32:27.500 | negotiator and to develop something that was a good fit for you?

00:32:32.260 | - Exactly.

00:32:33.260 | Yeah, I think you put it right.

00:32:34.260 | I think the fact that you are coming from a position of strength also gives them the

00:32:38.460 | confidence that you can deliver it.

00:32:40.340 | Because if you are through the interview process kind of wanting that job, a lot of times they

00:32:46.140 | were like, "Huh, why does this person really want the job?"

00:32:48.580 | And they are more hesitant to give it to you.

00:32:49.940 | But when you're like, you don't need to be rude, but you're like, "I don't need the job.

00:32:54.060 | But if you are offering me, then these are my conditions."

00:32:56.380 | It kind of puts you as an equal on the table, right?

00:32:58.620 | It's no superior, inferior kind of relationship.

00:33:01.940 | But rather you're just talking as equals to your employer and saying, "Hey, this is what

00:33:05.140 | I need.

00:33:06.140 | Can you give it to me?

00:33:07.140 | If not, then that's fine."

00:33:08.140 | - So I wanna highlight that for the listeners and just draw three lessons, three points

00:33:14.180 | from that.

00:33:16.060 | Because it is true, it does make a difference.

00:33:18.420 | And just negotiating from a position of strength is hugely important.

00:33:22.580 | Whether it's in romantic relationships, whether it's in job relationships, just in almost

00:33:29.100 | anything, just understanding, being confident.

00:33:32.180 | So number one, the ultimate confidence is true financial independence.

00:33:36.940 | I don't have to work.

00:33:38.220 | I can be happy living on my portfolio.

00:33:40.540 | That's the perfect, that's the ideal place to get to.

00:33:43.140 | So that's number one, that could be, it is an important goal.

00:33:46.740 | And I think the reason that's an important goal also is because it's gonna be hard to

00:33:50.160 | know your personal motivations if you don't, if you really wanna keep working until you

00:33:57.060 | recognize you have the option of doing something else.

00:34:00.380 | Number two is, if you're not financially independent, it doesn't mean you can't have that confidence.

00:34:05.740 | So the important thing is never to get a job when you need one, but always to get a job

00:34:09.860 | when you don't.

00:34:10.920 | So you don't wanna be fired, laid off, in the middle of a recession, desperate for work.

00:34:16.060 | You wanna be interviewing when you're happily employed and you're just trading up for the

00:34:19.900 | next one.

00:34:20.900 | You've talked about that.

00:34:22.100 | Every few years, you're always keeping your lines open with recruiters.

00:34:25.040 | You're building your personal brand in the industry.

00:34:27.520 | You're making sure that you're regularly getting offers.

00:34:29.660 | You entertain all offers, but then you're always in a position of strength.

00:34:33.320 | Because hey, I'm happily employed right now, but hey, if you can make me a better offer,

00:34:36.820 | I'm willing to consider it.

00:34:38.020 | And I don't wanna move across the country, but if you put enough money in the pot, I'm

00:34:41.580 | open to it.

00:34:42.580 | So you don't actually have to have any money to be in a position of strength if you have

00:34:46.660 | already established yourself, you've got a job, and you're continually working on upgrading.

00:34:51.040 | So that's the second point I'd like to make.

00:34:52.340 | And the third point is any person who's spending less than they're making can very quickly

00:35:00.200 | cultivate enough personal financial security that they can negotiate from the position

00:35:04.800 | of strength.

00:35:05.800 | $10,000 for a lot of people changes things.

00:35:09.760 | $50,000, $100,000 for the average person changes people if you'll let it hit your psychology.

00:35:16.200 | Because if you have $100,000 in the bank, and you need $30,000, $40,000 to live on,

00:35:22.580 | which is a reasonable budget that any person could live on in the United States without

00:35:25.900 | suffering, you have two and a half, three years of wiggle room.

00:35:30.300 | So you can very reliably say, "I don't need a job right now."

00:35:34.800 | And you can adopt that psychological strength going into job negotiations and such as you

00:35:41.200 | work your way towards ultimate financial independence.

00:35:43.960 | And then once you get into that higher level of career orientation where you've said no

00:35:49.200 | to the things that you are not good at, you've said no to the things you don't like doing,

00:35:53.560 | and you've said no to the toxic environments that you don't want to be a part of, then

00:35:56.900 | you can say yes to the things that you're good at.

00:35:59.040 | Say yes to the jobs that you like doing, and say yes to the jobs that come with a really

00:36:02.580 | good environment.

00:36:03.700 | And those are the kinds of jobs and career options that frankly you probably won't want

00:36:08.060 | to leave unless something changes.

00:36:10.320 | And that's why when you pursue that strategy, then the wealth just continues to multiply

00:36:14.180 | because you could retire any time, but you don't feel any pressing need to, and the job

00:36:19.820 | provides a useful application of your skills and abilities in the world that leads to fulfillment,

00:36:25.820 | leads to contribution to the world, leads to making a difference, and continues to radically

00:36:29.720 | transform your financial life.

00:36:31.180 | Yeah.

00:36:32.180 | And I think the last point is definitely important, Joshua, because to be honest, I'm still working,

00:36:36.060 | but although I don't need to work, right?

00:36:37.780 | And that's where I think the difference is that I can still go in, be productive, do

00:36:42.120 | my best for my employer, do the best for myself, but at the same time live stress-free.

00:36:47.160 | Any time I need a vacation, I can just take vacation.

00:36:49.400 | Like in December, I took a six-week vacation, went all over Asia, traveled to Cambodia and

00:36:54.040 | saw different cultures because travel is really important to me.

00:36:57.920 | Again, I'm planning to go to Mexico and then do again more trips to Canada, China.

00:37:02.800 | So I can take long vacations, and my employer is totally fine with that, and that gives

00:37:07.340 | me the person, like a strength position where I can actually go in and say, "Okay, this

00:37:12.440 | is what I want.

00:37:13.680 | What do I do to achieve this?"

00:37:15.040 | And I think at some point in time, employers as well, when they see an employee doing well,

00:37:20.320 | they are able to negotiate, work those things out, and able to create a good, conducive

00:37:24.640 | environment.

00:37:25.640 | So I think it's both ways, and you need to be in that position to create that environment.

00:37:29.840 | Absolutely.

00:37:30.840 | So you haven't mentioned marriage, children.

00:37:33.120 | Have you lived as a single man through this whole process?

00:37:35.280 | Yes.

00:37:36.280 | Okay.

00:37:37.280 | And how do you think that has affected your financial independence journey?

00:37:42.720 | To be honest, I don't think it would be very different.

00:37:46.240 | And to give you some background, I did mention my parents at the initial part of education,

00:37:51.100 | but now what I do is I ask them to...

00:37:53.500 | I feel guilty because in the initial years when I moved to the US, it was just me calling

00:37:59.060 | them with a calling card on a phone, speaking to them 10 minutes every week.

00:38:03.920 | And then as technology improved, both in India and over here, we kept in touch over Skype

00:38:08.920 | and kept doing that.

00:38:10.580 | But once I got financially independent, moved to Silicon Valley, I felt confident enough

00:38:14.560 | saying, "Hey, why don't you guys come and stay with me for six months and live with

00:38:18.080 | me?"

00:38:19.080 | So now the arrangement, which my parents do, is they come and live with me for six months,

00:38:23.320 | and then they live back home in India six months, just because most of the family and

00:38:27.580 | relatives which they grew up with are still in Bombay.

00:38:30.520 | So that keeps that close connection.

00:38:32.320 | And when they're here with me for six months, it's really me taking care of all of their

00:38:36.280 | expenses.

00:38:38.360 | And I already have a three-bed, two-bath house in Silicon Valley, so it's not that I'm living

00:38:42.440 | in a studio apartment.

00:38:44.460 | So I think as far as living cost go, it's not drastically different being a single person

00:38:49.800 | versus being in a relationship, in the sense that you still need to provide for three people

00:38:54.200 | expenses.

00:38:56.360 | So I think that's kind of where I would have...

00:38:59.600 | In Silicon Valley, I think the most important part is housing expense, and as long as you

00:39:03.600 | have that under control, you are good.

00:39:06.040 | What strategies have you used to moderate your expenses while living in Silicon Valley?

00:39:12.760 | One part which helped me definitely was I was lucky during the crash.

00:39:18.120 | There were certain areas of Silicon Valley which the prices never budged, but there were

00:39:22.080 | other pockets in the Bay Area itself where prices cratered.

00:39:26.800 | And they cratered by 30% or so, and that was enough for me to say, "Okay, this is the time

00:39:30.560 | where I actually need to get in the market and buy something."

00:39:35.480 | And my timing was a bit off, to be honest, because I bought my house in 2013 when the

00:39:38.840 | market had already risen, but not as crazy as it is back now to pre-peak level.

00:39:44.080 | But then I also had some crazy investment ideas which worked.

00:39:48.240 | Like I invested in financials, and as it kept going down, I kept doubling down, doubling

00:39:53.080 | down until finally Bear Stearns and Lehman happened, and then I was like, "Oh, I should

00:39:57.600 | actually..."

00:39:58.600 | I actually started buying Citigroup from $12, $8, and then I'm like, "Oh, at $5, it seems

00:40:03.360 | like a greater buy, all in."

00:40:05.640 | And then I'm like, "Oh, now it's $2."

00:40:08.040 | Then I'm like, "Okay, I'm borrowing money," and then I'm like, "Okay, investing," and

00:40:10.960 | then when it is below a dollar, I'm like, "I'm really scared now.

00:40:13.960 | I don't know what to do."

00:40:14.960 | But by then, I'm like, "All in."

00:40:17.160 | Luckily, I think that bet paid off, and I managed to get enough money which I could

00:40:21.920 | then use for down payment.

00:40:23.160 | So I think taking the strategic risk helped as well, and I was able to...

00:40:28.600 | And I clearly remember, in hindsight, it's easy to say, "Oh, everyone should have bought

00:40:32.280 | a house during the crash."

00:40:34.040 | But when I was over there and I talked to my co-workers saying, "Hey, are you guys buying?"

00:40:39.160 | Because we all were in a similar situation.

00:40:40.840 | We'd talk, "Oh, our rents are going up every week.

00:40:43.800 | To have a one-bedroom apartment in Silicon Valley is $3,000 rent.

00:40:47.800 | What do we do?"

00:40:48.800 | And we keep discussing this, and then the market crashes.

00:40:51.440 | But when the market crashes, no one was willing to step in and buy.

00:40:54.520 | So it does take a lot of courage to actually say, "Okay, I'm going to make a decision,

00:40:59.240 | and let me go in, let me put the down payment, and then see what happens."

00:41:02.760 | It's just a risk you have to take.

00:41:04.380 | So I think that risky bet paid off for me as well.

00:41:06.960 | So luckily, I have a house which I bought at a lower price.

00:41:10.860 | The best part about California, though, is the property prices are pegged to the buy

00:41:15.440 | price.

00:41:16.440 | So the property prices just track inflation, and if you buy it at a low price, it just

00:41:21.680 | is low-priced property taxes for the rest of your life.

00:41:25.760 | - Yeah.

00:41:26.760 | Tell us about the investing strategies you've developed and chosen now, going forward, after

00:41:32.480 | years of thinking about it and education.

00:41:34.680 | - Right.

00:41:35.680 | So after years of thinking and education, I no longer do...

00:41:38.600 | I have a fund portfolio where I still do individual stocks, but most of my portfolio is in well-diversified,

00:41:45.600 | quarterly mutual funds, just tracking the index of passive index funds that Vanguard

00:41:50.000 | Fidelity show up, just track the index and global asset allocation.

00:41:54.480 | There are some bonds in it, but then I also do some alternative investments.

00:41:57.720 | So I invest in...

00:42:00.640 | Because of my income, I'm an accredited investor, which then opens up the other options for

00:42:04.440 | me.

00:42:05.440 | So I'm able to invest in some art offerings, some marine offerings, some real estate syndication

00:42:09.880 | deals, and those provide a good enough yield, because I never believed in bond portfolios

00:42:15.520 | yielding low returns.

00:42:17.760 | I have some treasuries which have done really well this year because of the bond convexity,

00:42:22.560 | but other than that, it's more or less trying to get yield from all these alternative investments

00:42:26.200 | like real estate syndication, art, marine offerings, those kinds of things.

00:42:30.160 | So I've kind of kept that as my bond portfolio.

00:42:32.760 | In addition to that, I also have a rental property I bought in Silicon Valley.

00:42:35.860 | So the good part about the rental property is that it exactly matches my mortgage.

00:42:41.400 | So technically, although I haven't paid off my mortgage, I consider that my rental property

00:42:46.480 | is paid off, so I'm living rent-free in my house.

00:42:50.680 | So you carry a mortgage on your primary house, but the rental property is mortgage-free.

00:42:56.720 | And so basically, your tenants are paying off the mortgage on your primary house.

00:43:01.720 | I think those mental tricks are powerful when you can say, "Okay, I want to buy this.

00:43:06.280 | I want to live in this house.

00:43:07.640 | So how can I generate an investment that's going to pay for this for me?

00:43:10.160 | Because I don't want to pay for it, but I want to live in this house."

00:43:12.720 | Absolutely.

00:43:13.720 | I think that's powerful.

00:43:14.720 | And that's true financial independence, right?

00:43:16.160 | You have a paid-off house, technically speaking, where you are living free, and then you only

00:43:21.120 | need to say, "How much do I actually spend on travel?

00:43:24.080 | How much do I spend on food?

00:43:25.160 | How much do I spend on clothes?"

00:43:26.720 | And when you actually add it up, it's very little.

00:43:28.800 | And that expense, whether you're in Silicon Valley or you're in Kansas, it's the same.

00:43:32.920 | I mean, food doesn't cost a lot more in Silicon Valley compared to anywhere in the Midwest.

00:43:39.000 | How do you weigh, having traveled and worked across the United States, how do you weigh

00:43:44.480 | the costs and benefits of living in Silicon Valley?

00:43:50.720 | I would say for technology individuals, it would still make sense to move to Silicon

00:43:55.280 | Valley, make a ton of money, and at some point in time, if you think this is expensive, you

00:44:00.960 | can move out.

00:44:02.500 | The opportunities you get in Silicon Valley are tremendous.

00:44:06.040 | Like I mentioned, I've never needed to ever hunt for a job.

00:44:08.440 | I've been always quoted and people reach out to me for jobs, and then you can keep getting

00:44:13.600 | a lot of money.

00:44:16.040 | You would kind of rent an apartment.

00:44:18.160 | You would not have your own house maybe initially, but over a period of time, I think the amount

00:44:22.720 | of money you can amass through that route is much greater.

00:44:26.480 | Of course, now Silicon Valley is more diversified, so you have options like Austin, Boston, other

00:44:31.520 | tech hubs, Raleigh, North Carolina, which are coming up.

00:44:34.200 | Amazon is opening up an office outside of Seattle.

00:44:36.760 | So those options are there, but still I would say Silicon Valley, if you're in technology

00:44:40.840 | field, you should move there.

00:44:42.360 | If you're not in the technology field, I don't think people have any business living there.

00:44:47.160 | I know there are people who work at Starbucks who live in Silicon Valley.

00:44:50.480 | I would honestly, if I was not in technology and I worked at Starbucks and those were my

00:44:54.520 | only skills, I would just move out and get a similar job somewhere else.

00:44:59.040 | I have a cultural question for you.

00:45:03.320 | I have the opinion that Indians who are smart and who leave India and go where there are

00:45:10.440 | more economic opportunities are very efficient at becoming wealthy.

00:45:16.400 | I don't know if that's true because I've never charted the data on it.

00:45:19.760 | I don't know if there are poor Indians living in the United States who, yeah, they are from

00:45:25.440 | the Indian culture, but they just are always struggling.

00:45:30.480 | But my anecdotal experience has been that Indians do really well in the United States.

00:45:36.240 | It's been hard for me to find, again, examples of just normally competent people who do come

00:45:41.960 | to the United States and work and pursue opportunities that they become wealthy.

00:45:49.480 | First, do you think that's true?

00:45:51.360 | I think it's more the first generation immigrant who comes over here, they understand the struggles

00:45:57.020 | and they will be careful about everything and be wealthy.

00:46:00.480 | But culturally, I don't think there's anything specific about Indians or any other ethnicities.

00:46:06.200 | So to give you an example, like Silicon Valley and that neighborhood has a lot of people

00:46:10.440 | from Vietnam, some of who came during the Vietnamese war.

00:46:14.560 | But the people who are born there, the second or third generation people I meet are more

00:46:19.080 | American than Vietnamese and their way of living and spending would be more similar

00:46:25.440 | to the Native Americans versus their home culture, right?

00:46:29.480 | And I could see them degrading in a lower level lifestyle versus the immigrants who

00:46:35.520 | actually came in the first wave.

00:46:37.560 | So I don't disagree with that.

00:46:39.440 | I totally agree.

00:46:41.360 | But what I'm interested in is first wave, like first wave immigrants.

00:46:44.480 | Because I don't have the same impression, for example, about Guatemalans who come to

00:46:48.600 | the United States.

00:46:49.600 | I've known a lot of Guatemalan immigrants, but Guatemalans, I know a couple of Mexicans

00:46:56.920 | who immigrated to the United States who are at upper levels of income, but I don't know

00:47:02.640 | any personally, I've never met any Guatemalans who experienced the career success, the wealth

00:47:10.400 | success, etc. that Indians seem to experience.

00:47:13.320 | So that's what I'm focused on.

00:47:15.520 | I'm just trying to say what are the lessons from the Indian culture?

00:47:19.840 | Because to me, it seems to me that here's what I see.

00:47:22.440 | You tell me.

00:47:23.440 | It may be easy, it may be hard for you to analyze your native culture.

00:47:26.200 | Right.

00:47:27.200 | Right.

00:47:28.200 | Because I'm like, if I'm sitting in the ocean, I see water everywhere.

00:47:30.720 | Exactly.

00:47:31.720 | I think it's normal.

00:47:32.720 | Exactly.

00:47:33.720 | So here's what I see.

00:47:34.720 | Here are the advantages I think that Indians have over immigrants from other cultures.

00:47:37.760 | Number one, you grow up speaking English, right?

00:47:40.560 | For those who don't know, it's my understanding that in India, it's standard that children

00:47:44.520 | are taught three languages, India, Hindi, and a local dialect generally.

00:47:48.440 | Is that pretty true?

00:47:50.320 | That's true to some extent.

00:47:51.320 | So the urban areas, people, the medium of instruction is English, but not so in the

00:47:55.600 | rural area.

00:47:56.600 | So it also depends on the city where you were born.

00:47:58.600 | So you had the benefit of growing up in an urban area, your parents had already moved

00:48:02.260 | from the country to the city, and you had the benefit of learning English as a child.

00:48:08.480 | That's a huge benefit.

00:48:09.480 | It is.

00:48:10.480 | Definitely.

00:48:11.480 | If you were born in the United States, you could come as a professional worker, which

00:48:15.440 | we'll get to education in a minute, but you had to be able to speak English to do that.

00:48:19.480 | Whereas somebody who comes from Guatemala to take a manual labor job doesn't speak English,

00:48:26.360 | and so that really harms them.

00:48:27.880 | I'm forever desperately trying to get Hispanic immigrants to the United States.

00:48:33.560 | You've got to learn English.

00:48:34.800 | The very first thing you got to do is to learn English.

00:48:38.460 | So that's one advantage.

00:48:40.100 | Number two, there seems to be an intensive culture in India where parents are willing

00:48:47.560 | to make almost any sacrifice for the betterment of their children.

00:48:51.680 | So parents will work forever.

00:48:54.240 | If it makes my children better, I'll do it.

00:48:57.920 | And a lot of that comes down to schooling and education.

00:49:01.040 | In the Indian culture, schooling and education are massively valued.

00:49:06.080 | And then with those foundations, with being able to speak a language, and then the schooling

00:49:11.680 | and education and culture, you add that to immigration.

00:49:16.860 | I have not been to India.

00:49:18.720 | I kind of wonder very much what's happening in India.

00:49:21.520 | Of course, you got a country of a billion people.

00:49:23.280 | How do you even know?

00:49:24.480 | But I feel like all the smart Indians leave and go somewhere else.

00:49:29.040 | I meet Indian immigrants all over the world, and I often wonder, there's got to be a bunch

00:49:33.840 | of smart Indians staying, but there's no question that intelligence and skill, then you put

00:49:39.040 | it into an economy like the United States, where the average American that's born in

00:49:44.600 | the United States succumbs to that second and third generation malaise.

00:49:48.040 | They're not really hungry.

00:49:49.040 | They're not willing to sacrifice.

00:49:51.040 | And it just seems to me that new immigrants who have those benefits just wipe the floor.

00:49:58.880 | They see the opportunities and they take advantage of them.

00:50:01.400 | I don't know.

00:50:04.120 | Do you think that's accurate?

00:50:05.440 | My analysis is accurate?

00:50:06.440 | I think that is accurate.

00:50:07.440 | And to answer your question with respect to what's happening now in India, when I last

00:50:11.120 | visited two years ago, a lot of reverse brain drain is now happening because the Indian

00:50:16.780 | economy has opened up.

00:50:18.120 | It's now more capitalist and market driven.

00:50:20.160 | So like Amazon has a rival, the Flipkart, which has opened up and giving Amazon a tough

00:50:24.600 | competition in India.

00:50:26.240 | Amazon has been trying forever, but it can't gain market share in India.

00:50:29.240 | I think similar phenomena is occurring in China as well, where a lot of Chinese immigrants

00:50:33.760 | come here, study and sometimes say, "Oh, it's better off to go back to China and work over

00:50:38.080 | there."

00:50:39.080 | So I think that's good, where as each economy is opening up, people are having that opportunity

00:50:44.040 | to go back to their country of origin, work over there and then contribute to that society

00:50:48.080 | as well.

00:50:49.080 | Yeah, I hope so.

00:50:50.080 | To me, the lessons are obvious.

00:50:53.400 | Those things that I said, you mentioned being raised in a stable home environment.

00:50:59.040 | It's incalculable how big of an impact that makes on you in time.

00:51:03.480 | And then having family that loves you, that supports you, is willing to deal with the

00:51:07.160 | hardness of your going abroad.

00:51:11.000 | I find it very inspiring.

00:51:12.680 | Now if we can figure out how to get second and third generations to keep the good things

00:51:16.920 | about the immigrant attitude and not succumb to the malaise of comfort and wealth, then

00:51:24.560 | we'll really have something.

00:51:25.600 | But I don't know how to do that, other than to, my theory is that if we deprive our children

00:51:32.240 | and put them into hardship, because that deprivation and that hardship is the thing that has a

00:51:38.160 | formative influence on new immigrants.

00:51:41.760 | If you've slept on the street, if you've not known where your next meal is going to come

00:51:45.960 | from, if you've experienced hardship and want and distress, then you recognize comfort and

00:51:53.680 | ease and luxury when you see it.

00:51:55.920 | And then you look at it and you say, "Well, this is simple.

00:51:57.760 | I just need a good job and save money.

00:52:00.200 | And look, this apartment is $500 a month, but this is better than I could have had back

00:52:04.520 | home for, you know, this is nice."

00:52:08.040 | And so my theory is that there's got to be a way to expose our children to plenty and

00:52:16.000 | security, et cetera, but also expose them to hardship and deprivation so they can gain

00:52:21.720 | the lessons of both.

00:52:22.960 | Because if it's too much hardship and deprivation, right, some guy who's living in the middle

00:52:27.680 | of nowhere, India, who has nothing but a mud hut, like too much hardship and deprivation

00:52:33.140 | can lead to somebody just simply not having either the knowledge that they can have ambition

00:52:38.800 | or the ability to do that.

00:52:40.240 | You weren't raised in that, right?

00:52:41.320 | You were raised in relative prosperity, kind of a middle class, you had a roof over your

00:52:46.240 | head, you weren't sleeping on the street.

00:52:48.200 | Sleeping on the streets can be really destructive to the psychology of a human.

00:52:52.580 | But there's a difference, like there's got to be some right balance where we're comfortable,

00:52:57.360 | we're safe, those basic needs of life are met, but yet there's still enough challenge

00:53:02.640 | and hardship and deprivation to make somebody feel hungry.

00:53:05.040 | - Right, and I think the culture which the parents have the ability to push their children

00:53:09.220 | and it's not looked upon as strange, I think that helps a lot.

00:53:12.920 | I remember when I came to the US, I read the story, it was called, it was a huge deal,

00:53:18.840 | it came in the New York Times, which was the battle cry of the tiger mom, and there were

00:53:23.160 | like so many comments on that article.

00:53:25.200 | And when I read that story, I was like, that seems normal what the mother did to the Chinese

00:53:29.600 | daughters, like playing piano, make sure you study and do all of this.

00:53:33.840 | But as I read the comments, people are like, oh my God, what a bad mother, blah, blah,

00:53:38.600 | blah.

00:53:39.600 | And I'm like, that does not seem like a bad mother to me, it seems just normal to me,

00:53:43.160 | but I think that's a huge cultural difference.

00:53:45.720 | - Well, what's happened is that in the American culture, the individualism and basically,

00:53:54.240 | Americans speaking broadly, especially the secular elite, like the culture makers on

00:53:58.320 | the left and right coasts, have basically accepted the philosophy that you do you, right?

00:54:05.080 | This is the idea.

00:54:06.080 | There is no right or wrong, there's no better or worse, something is right because you want

00:54:11.320 | it.

00:54:12.320 | So you live how you want to live.

00:54:14.120 | Well, if that's true, right, which many people accept that as being the basic philosophical

00:54:19.960 | truth that the highest and best thing I can do is to express myself, to be myself, to

00:54:26.480 | let it out.

00:54:27.480 | I wanna be me, I wanna be free.

00:54:28.800 | What does the Frozen song say?

00:54:30.160 | Let it go, right?

00:54:31.280 | Don't be inhibited by the rules, don't be inhibited by standards, don't be inhibited

00:54:37.160 | by other people's opinions of you, let it go, let it go, let it go, right?

00:54:40.840 | That's the basic operating philosophy of the majority of the American coastal secular elite.

00:54:46.080 | Now in that, then you come to child training.

00:54:48.800 | Well, if it's right for you as a parent, then it's right for your child.

00:54:54.600 | And so parents often then impose that idea on their children that instead of saying there's

00:55:00.080 | a process of education whereby I'm going to teach my child what he or she needs to learn,

00:55:06.480 | it's just simply the goal of education is to let my child's innate goodness flower and

00:55:11.160 | let it out.

00:55:12.320 | And so my goal is to indulge these things and to indulge them so that whatever their

00:55:17.640 | right path is in life, then they'll find it.

00:55:21.200 | And so that basic educational philosophy sets the difference.

00:55:25.360 | In the Indian culture, your parents know if you are well educated, if you're good at math,

00:55:30.200 | if you're good at science, if you become a doctor and a lawyer, you can have a better

00:55:33.680 | life.

00:55:34.680 | You can have a better life, therefore you will study your math.

00:55:37.560 | And that's imposed on you and the standards are held there.

00:55:39.880 | And if you come home with a B, your mom is looking for something to teach you a lesson,

00:55:45.360 | right?

00:55:46.360 | Whereas in the American culture with this basic concept of a philosophy that says you're

00:55:52.360 | good however you are is just the right way to be.

00:55:56.200 | Then if my child comes home with a B in math, you just don't like math.

00:56:00.120 | That's okay.

00:56:01.360 | Maybe you'll find something else that you like better.

00:56:03.800 | And as far as I'm concerned, the evidence is obvious.

00:56:06.360 | Just look at the earning ability, look at the wealth accumulation, look at the success

00:56:09.400 | in academics.

00:56:10.560 | There's no question.

00:56:11.560 | Now again, I'm not, maybe there are times that the Indian mom goes too far, right?

00:56:17.760 | Maybe I don't know.

00:56:18.760 | I don't have an Indian mom, but maybe there are times where it goes too far and maybe

00:56:22.820 | there's a right balance, but I'm not in favor of the American system.

00:56:27.000 | I don't know if I'm in favor of the Indian system.

00:56:28.880 | I think there again is an intelligent way to say, no, you're not good enough just the

00:56:33.400 | way you are.

00:56:34.400 | You're not, oh, you're five years old.

00:56:35.680 | You don't know what you're talking about.

00:56:36.680 | You're five years old.

00:56:37.680 | Like sit down, learn, and take the instruction of your elders without destroying the child

00:56:43.320 | and saying, well, you're just worthless because you don't get A pluses in math.

00:56:46.840 | - Right, and if we extrapolate that, Joshua, to even like the student debt crisis, which

00:56:50.200 | is there, I honestly still believe that if someone today in America goes to school for

00:56:55.120 | medicine or engineering, they will have huge debt, but they will land a job and they can

00:57:00.760 | easily repay that debt.

00:57:02.480 | If you go to school to study like pyramids of Egypt, that's a pyramid scheme in itself

00:57:08.480 | because you're paying the college and then the only job you can get is being a professor

00:57:12.160 | teaching other people the same thing.

00:57:13.960 | I'm like, what is the value out of it?

00:57:16.480 | I mean, don't get me wrong.

00:57:17.480 | I mean, history is great, but you could just do that, go to the library, check out 10 books,

00:57:22.960 | just read it, and then you know the pyramids of history.

00:57:24.920 | I'm like, why do you need to spend money and thousands of dollars?

00:57:29.080 | At the end of the day, I think when people spend money on education, they should be like,

00:57:32.440 | what does this contribute to society and who is willing to pay for my skills, right?

00:57:36.520 | I mean, as an engineer, I know that, okay, if I can code, someone is benefiting with

00:57:40.080 | that code and is willing to pay me.

00:57:42.100 | But if I can paint or something, maybe my painting is famous, but that possibility and

00:57:47.440 | that risk is so high that it's clearly not worth taking.

00:57:52.520 | - Right.

00:57:53.520 | Well, it's obvious that you're right, but I would just kind of point out, why then do

00:57:58.400 | we have the cultural conversation?

00:58:00.600 | Well, if you're taught as a child, as I'm a millennial, right?

00:58:05.400 | Most of my peers, we have been taught this as children.

00:58:08.320 | If you're taught as a child that the most important thing in life is that you are allowed

00:58:13.580 | to express yourself, that you're allowed to be you, and that your self-fulfillment is

00:58:18.120 | the ideal goal, then that naturally results in many people, not all, there are lots of

00:58:24.360 | intelligent people who made different choices who chose to study something that paid them

00:58:27.360 | well.

00:58:28.360 | And the natural result is that you try to choose something that leads you towards self-actualization

00:58:33.640 | rather than leads you towards profitability.

00:58:36.200 | And then what happens is, it's very easy psychologically, once you get into a certain groove, just like

00:58:41.240 | once you say, it's like, I don't go to new car dealerships and look at new cars, right?

00:58:45.120 | I don't do it because I don't know if I would have the self-control to say no to the new

00:58:49.320 | car.

00:58:50.320 | I love them, the technology is great, you go and you sit in them and you look and you're

00:58:53.200 | like, man, this would be so much better.

00:58:54.840 | So because I don't know if I would have the self-control in that situation, I don't go

00:58:58.480 | there.

00:58:59.480 | But almost anything in life is basically the same thing as going and shopping for cars.

00:59:04.920 | If you don't make a decision in advance that I'm going to choose a course of study that

00:59:09.000 | will lead to a practical benefit, and you say, well, you know what, I'm interested in

00:59:12.960 | pyramids of Egypt, and you go and you find, man, there's this guy who knows everything

00:59:16.020 | about the pyramids of Egypt, and you say, look, there are 10 anthropologists all around

00:59:19.880 | the world who are making their living on the pyramids of Egypt, I can do that too.

00:59:23.560 | And you don't do an accurate analysis of the fact that, look, there are also 10,000 people

00:59:29.200 | with degrees in pyramids of Egypt, and they're failing, and they're working at the grocery

00:59:33.640 | store bagging groceries.

00:59:36.080 | People don't really make that analysis.

00:59:37.960 | And then built upon the philosophy of self-actualization, what would make me happy, what would make

00:59:42.560 | me fulfilled, then you move in that direction.

00:59:44.740 | Your mom and dad didn't ask you what would make you happy, what would make you fulfilled,

00:59:47.400 | they said study, because this is good for you.

00:59:49.680 | And then you find out, hey, engineering works, and you figure out how in the context of engineering

00:59:54.600 | to find the greatest happiness and fulfillment in the best environment you can.

00:59:59.120 | But there's gotta be a link of, I'm all for self-fulfillment, I feel very fulfilled doing

01:00:04.000 | what I do, but there's gotta be a good link to the practicality of our decisions.

01:00:09.640 | If you separate them, you wind up with a crisis.

01:00:12.240 | - True.

01:00:13.240 | Yeah, so the choice is only for typical Indians growing up in India is either medicine, doctor,

01:00:18.240 | or lawyer, and you get to make your own choices, but it's limited to those choices.

01:00:22.680 | - You know, with good reason, though.

01:00:23.680 | If you go back to, in the United States, there was Tom Stanley, was an author, he interviewed

01:00:28.960 | a lot of wealthy people, and he wrote a number of books, and one of the basic recommendations

01:00:33.120 | that the wealthy people in his studies would make to their children is that their children

01:00:37.260 | acquire a professional degree, that their children become doctors, lawyers, or engineers

01:00:41.920 | in many ways.

01:00:43.200 | Even though many of his interviewees were wealthy entrepreneurs, they knew how fraught

01:00:48.920 | entrepreneurship was with difficulty, and how you're always on the line between success

01:00:55.520 | and failure.

01:00:56.520 | And when it's successful, it's nice, but you know all the things that have gone slightly

01:00:59.640 | wrong would lead to failure, and they recommend the safe path to their children, become a

01:01:03.760 | loctor, doctor, lawyer, engineer.

01:01:09.880 | They know, recommend these things.

01:01:12.360 | So you're not alone, and it's true, right?

01:01:14.680 | It really is true.

01:01:15.680 | - And I think given the fact that internet has democratized information so much, it's

01:01:21.080 | hard for me to understand anyone in the US, even someone who's earning minimum wage, ideally

01:01:25.960 | if they spend enough time, they can set up like a new website on the side, they can sell

01:01:30.640 | products.

01:01:31.640 | When I was taking my vacation in Thailand, I met so many people from Thailand actually

01:01:37.800 | buying stuff from Alibaba, selling it to the Americans on Amazon, just doing fulfillment

01:01:43.120 | by Amazon drop shipping, and they're making tons of money, and they are not in the US,

01:01:47.160 | but they still, just by knowledge of the internet, knowing English, they are able to just arbitrage

01:01:52.200 | and just make money.

01:01:53.880 | And I'm like amazed that people who live here don't have that entrepreneurship.

01:01:57.800 | They will argue with people over Facebook, over Twitter, and like waste time following

01:02:03.120 | what the latest Kardashians are posting on Instagram, instead of like kind of doing something,

01:02:07.680 | which will trickle in money, build your skills, and then those skills are useful.

01:02:12.320 | Even if it fails, just take small bets, if it fails, you have those skills, just apply

01:02:17.120 | to the next gig.

01:02:18.120 | - Yeah.

01:02:19.120 | I don't have an answer for it.

01:02:20.360 | I think about it a lot, and I try to be thoughtful and not just say everyone's wrong, but there's

01:02:27.440 | something about inspiration, right?

01:02:30.360 | If you don't believe that you can do it, you do that.

01:02:33.360 | There's something about the experiences that people have had.

01:02:36.560 | You know, a lot of people are beaten down psychologically.

01:02:39.480 | A lot of people have experienced a lot of suffering, and that harms their confidence.

01:02:44.000 | There's something about character and discipline, doing the hard work.

01:02:46.880 | It's great to have an idea, it's hard to execute on them.

01:02:50.960 | There's something to be said for ability.

01:02:54.240 | There's something to be said for intelligence.

01:02:56.480 | I do, I've noodled on that for a long time, and I still don't know that I have answers.

01:03:02.200 | I know that the answers are out there for someone who seeks.

01:03:05.120 | One of the things I wrote down as I was listening to you talk is you demonstrated an interest

01:03:11.080 | in the story that you shared.

01:03:12.600 | You demonstrated an interest in learning and looking for answers.

01:03:16.100 | You recognized, oh, I have money.

01:03:17.480 | I have your money now, I have an income.

01:03:19.120 | What should I do with that?

01:03:20.600 | I don't know why everybody doesn't do that, but I know that most people don't.

01:03:25.720 | Most people don't go look for answers.

01:03:27.920 | Most people don't, if they're unhealthy, they don't just keep looking and keep, you know,

01:03:32.520 | if a doctor tells them it's incurable, they don't just go and fire that doctor until they

01:03:36.560 | find someone who tells them it's curable.

01:03:37.800 | They say, oh, it's incurable.

01:03:38.800 | Okay, I'm going to lie up and lay down and die now, right?

01:03:40.960 | And it's the same thing.

01:03:42.200 | Very few people just seem to possess that natural or trained knowledge of I'm going

01:03:47.480 | to get better at this.

01:03:48.720 | So I don't know what we do other than try to talk and share and inspire people, because

01:03:52.120 | I do know almost anybody, whether they're Thai or Guatemalan or native-born American

01:03:56.920 | or whatever, I know that once they get some inspiration and someone lays out a path, then

01:04:01.400 | they can start to build.

01:04:02.400 | - Definitely, and I think that's where I decided, even like within Silicon Valley, I've seen

01:04:06.200 | so many of my coworkers be stressed.

01:04:08.080 | So I said, okay, I should start a blog because all of them come to me for advising, even

01:04:12.600 | basic things like what 401(k) investment should I choose or what should I do with my excess

01:04:16.680 | money outside?

01:04:17.680 | Should I sell my company RSU stocks?

01:04:19.240 | Is it too much diversification risk?

01:04:21.400 | So I said, okay, I might as well rather than talk to each person over and over again.

01:04:25.120 | So I said, okay, I'll start a blog and start like typing on all my thoughts.

01:04:28.560 | I might not have all the answers.

01:04:30.080 | In fact, I might be wrong most of the times, but at least it fosters dialogue, puts my

01:04:34.120 | opinion out there.

01:04:35.120 | And if someone thinks differently, I mean, feel free, like come in the comment section,

01:04:39.720 | talk about it, and then I might change my opinion and I might go a different route.

01:04:43.200 | So I think that's where I decided to go along this journey.

01:04:45.640 | - Your blog is financialfreedomcountdown.com.

01:04:48.640 | - That is correct.

01:04:49.640 | - Financialfreedomcountdown.com.

01:04:51.840 | So you're blogging about financial freedom, the things that you've learned, the story

01:04:55.920 | that you've laid out.

01:04:56.920 | - Right.

01:04:57.920 | - The financial independence, early retirement, et cetera.

01:05:01.000 | Is there anything I've missed in today's interview?

01:05:03.040 | Anything you'd like to share with my audience?

01:05:06.060 | Being a long time listener of the show, is there anything you'd like to share that you

01:05:10.400 | wish I'd asked you about or any just personal desire to encourage your fellow listeners?

01:05:14.920 | - No, I think Joshua, this was definitely a good thought process and it helped clear

01:05:19.000 | some of the concepts in my mind as well.

01:05:20.720 | And it's great after listening to so many episodes to actually meet you in person and

01:05:24.440 | talk and be on the podcast.

01:05:26.000 | So I can't tell you how excited I'm for all of this.

01:05:29.040 | - I'm so glad you're here.

01:05:30.480 | Financialfreedomcountdown.com.

01:05:31.480 | John, thank you for coming on the show.

01:05:33.160 | - Thank you, Joshua.

01:05:34.160 | - I appreciate it.

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01:06:01.920 | (upbeat music)

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