RPF0563-Why_Are_Successful_High-Earning_Professionals_Moving_Into_a_Van_Down_By_the_River-Interview_with_Chris_and_Cristi_Moody_from_Life_Opted_Out
00:00:00.000 | Welcome to Radical Personal Finance, a show dedicated to providing you with the knowledge,
00:00:03.360 | skills, insight, and encouragement you need to live a rich and meaningful life now while
00:00:07.920 | building a plan for financial freedom in 10 years or less.
00:00:11.440 | My name is Joshua and today on Radical Personal Finance, I'm excited to bring you an interview
00:00:14.720 | with Chris and Christy Moody, who are embarking on a project called Life Opted Out.
00:00:22.060 | This interview features two themes.
00:00:23.840 | Number one, it's their personal story of packing up all of their possessions, moving out of
00:00:28.160 | a penthouse apartment in Manhattan and moving into a cargo van, traveling around the country.
00:00:33.080 | But it's also an interview project where they are looking for interesting stories and trying
00:00:38.540 | to examine the threads that are happening in US American culture right now, where many
00:00:43.980 | people have chosen and are choosing to opt out of the more traditional path.
00:00:50.440 | I hope you enjoy this interview.
00:00:51.980 | It's an excellent project.
00:00:53.200 | Stay tuned to the end of the interview for two things.
00:00:55.360 | Number one, my hope is that you, a radical, can help Chris and Christy with their reporting
00:01:01.160 | project because their project is a perfect fit and it dovetails nicely in with Radical
00:01:06.900 | Personal Finance.
00:01:07.900 | And I want you to help them by providing for them some interesting stories and interesting
00:01:13.280 | research that they can do in possibly with you or with people that you know and that
00:01:18.000 | you know of.
00:01:19.280 | The second thing is stay tuned at the end for a little bit of closing commentary by
00:01:23.000 | me on what I am observing in what Chris and Christy are doing.
00:01:28.640 | Chris and Christy Moody, welcome to the show.
00:01:31.720 | Great to be here, Josh.
00:01:32.720 | Hey, Josh.
00:01:33.720 | So I'm really excited to bring you guys on today because this project that you are engaged
00:01:38.960 | in is a perfect fit for the Radical Personal Finance community.
00:01:44.300 | It's a perfect fit in terms of interesting content and also we as a community want to
00:01:48.080 | help you with your project.
00:01:50.320 | So describe who you are and what you're doing at this stage of your life.
00:01:54.760 | Well, Josh, my name is Chris Moody.
00:01:57.240 | I was a journalist in Washington, D.C. and in New York.
00:02:00.480 | I covered politics for several different outlets.
00:02:05.200 | And we were living in New York City and I was laid off and that led us to a lot of soul
00:02:12.280 | searching and Christy and I decided to give away and sell almost all of our possessions,
00:02:19.840 | get rid of our Manhattan penthouse apartment on the Upper West Side and move into a cargo
00:02:25.760 | van, a used 2017 Ram ProMaster cargo van.
00:02:31.040 | And we built a tiny home inside the cargo van in one month by ourselves.
00:02:36.280 | So that you guys, some people move into a van because they're broke and they can't afford
00:02:40.640 | it but it sounds like you guys have made the big switch from the posh part of New York
00:02:47.160 | and to be living in a van down by the river.
00:02:50.280 | Does this feel a little bit weird or is this just life as normal in today's world?
00:02:55.480 | Well, Josh, we kind of saw Chris getting laid off as an opportunity to do something different
00:03:02.280 | ourselves and to pursue this passion project, which I've had maybe for about two years.
00:03:08.200 | I've been working on this idea of traveling the country and telling stories about people
00:03:12.800 | who are choosing to live very intentionally and to opt out of the mainstream, we'd say
00:03:19.600 | maybe American dream of having your traditional nine to five job, your house and mortgage,
00:03:26.400 | your debts, your house and garage just full of stuff.
00:03:31.320 | And so we are living in a van really for the practical reason that it's probably the least
00:03:38.040 | expensive way for us to travel the country full time and to live on the road.
00:03:43.240 | So let's talk about expenses because I want to dig into the van build.
00:03:47.080 | I want to dig into the comparison of life.
00:03:50.240 | But how much would you guess it was costing you to live when you're living in Manhattan
00:03:56.160 | and how much is it costing you to live now?
00:03:59.400 | I'd have to take a look at the spreadsheets we had, but I know it was costing more than
00:04:05.480 | $5,000 a month just to live and that doesn't even include student loans and other kind
00:04:10.960 | of expenses.
00:04:12.720 | Given the cost of rent up in New York City, food, transportation, everything.
00:04:18.960 | We were living just in a one bedroom, a pretty standard New York apartment, nothing too big
00:04:25.920 | or anything.
00:04:26.920 | Nothing is big up there really.
00:04:28.960 | But with the van, we were able to do the entire build out for about $5,000.
00:04:36.520 | So we really saved a lot of money on a monthly basis.
00:04:41.920 | And then the van plus the cost of the van, so we're financing that at around $1,000 a
00:04:47.600 | month and all told, it is far less than living in New York City.
00:04:53.440 | Also when you're living in a van, the simplicity of everything that you do really brings your
00:04:58.560 | cost down, especially with cooking.
00:05:00.680 | We use a one burner stove and that makes for a lot of vegan bowls and lentils and rice
00:05:09.000 | and vegetables and things that really don't cost a lot of money.
00:05:13.140 | So add the rising cost of gas to that which made it a little bit more expensive, but we're
00:05:18.480 | talking a pretty significant reduction in expenses.
00:05:22.680 | How long have you been on the road now?
00:05:25.160 | We left the beginning of June.
00:05:27.880 | So we've been on for about six weeks now.
00:05:31.480 | And are you paying for camping and campgrounds?
00:05:33.560 | Are you parking in random parking lots?
00:05:35.480 | How are you handling where you stay?
00:05:37.880 | So we rarely pay for a campground unless we're at a national park and we feel like it's worth
00:05:43.640 | it to pay to be inside the national park and at their campground.
00:05:48.240 | Usually we stay with this program called Harvest Host, which is an excellent program.
00:05:53.280 | If you have a self-contained RV vehicle, an RV or like ours, a class B RV, you can stay
00:06:02.820 | on these farms, vineyards, historic sites, all different kinds of places all over the
00:06:07.680 | country for a yearly subscription.
00:06:10.360 | I think we paid maybe 45 or $48 for the year.
00:06:14.640 | And you just call up the various farms, ask if you can stay the night.
00:06:18.320 | We're usually staying in a cow field or in a back parking lot behind a barn or whatever
00:06:24.720 | space they have.
00:06:25.880 | If it's like a winery, sometimes in the actual parking lot of the winery.
00:06:29.660 | And it's been great.
00:06:30.740 | It's basically been completely free.
00:06:32.500 | And we always have a place to stay where we have permission and people know we're there.
00:06:36.600 | We get to talk to the farmers, we get to meet people.
00:06:39.600 | It's been a really great program.
00:06:41.900 | And that program, Josh, has taken probably one of the most significant anxiety inducers
00:06:46.980 | out of van life.
00:06:48.240 | And that is wondering where we're going to stay.
00:06:50.960 | And when we're asleep, is anyone going to knock on the door?
00:06:54.260 | There's nothing more terrifying I've heard because it hasn't happened to us yet.
00:06:57.240 | But there's nothing more terrifying than an unknown person knocking on your metal van
00:07:01.800 | door.
00:07:02.800 | You don't know if it's a police officer or something more nefarious.
00:07:06.880 | And so staying on these farms and vineyards has just been so wonderful.
00:07:10.320 | We highly recommend this program called Harvest Hosts to anyone who has a self-contained RV.
00:07:16.440 | But there's a lot of places people can stay when they're living on the road.
00:07:18.960 | Of course, there are campgrounds where you can pay.
00:07:21.760 | National Forests has free camping across the United States.
00:07:26.760 | And then there's also just boondocking in a city on the sidewalk.
00:07:30.880 | We not on the sidewalk, on the street parking.
00:07:33.680 | We slept in downtown Washington, D.C., kind of in the shadow of the Supreme Court and
00:07:39.640 | just woke up in the morning and drove off.
00:07:41.560 | No one bothered us.
00:07:42.640 | And it was a free place to stay in the heart of a pretty cool city.
00:07:46.680 | So I feel like there's this underworld or there's this world of people who are doing
00:07:52.720 | what you're doing that most people don't notice.
00:07:56.200 | But once you get tuned into the signs, my wife and I, I point them out to her and now
00:08:00.360 | she points them out to me.
00:08:01.800 | I always say, "Oh, look, there's a van dweller.
00:08:03.640 | Oh, look, there's somebody living in their car."
00:08:05.720 | Once you get tuned into the signs, I think you see them in a lot of places.
00:08:08.840 | I think you see people doing what you're doing if you know what to look for.
00:08:12.720 | Has that been your experience?
00:08:14.240 | Yeah, absolutely.
00:08:15.880 | When we were still in Manhattan, we noticed on our block a van where someone was living
00:08:21.600 | in the van.
00:08:22.960 | And so you look for the signs of if they have solar panels, if they have a ventilation fan,
00:08:26.920 | if the windows are open, have screens on them.
00:08:29.960 | And so we've seen it even in New York City, people living on the streets.
00:08:33.800 | And I want to say to the listeners, the kind of van we're in is just a worker's cargo van.
00:08:40.400 | It kind of looks like a plumber's van or something like that.
00:08:43.680 | It's not marked.
00:08:44.680 | It's just a regular white van.
00:08:46.280 | And stealth for people that are living full time in these things is very important because
00:08:50.800 | it gives you a lot more options.
00:08:52.440 | And that's why we chose to go with just a cargo van instead of maybe a larger RV.
00:08:57.120 | Christy and I don't have any children, so that makes it a little bit easier for just
00:09:00.520 | the two of us, even though it is just 72 square feet.
00:09:03.720 | It is a tiny space that we're in together.
00:09:07.080 | But yes, you walk around and you notice all the little things.
00:09:11.680 | And there are people, if you go on Instagram, you look for #vanlife, you'll find several
00:09:17.040 | different ways of living in vans.
00:09:20.040 | We're kind of at this wonderful cultural moment right now where the technology is such that
00:09:24.440 | people can go on the road and work from the road.
00:09:27.760 | They don't have to be stuck in one place if they don't want to be.
00:09:31.280 | I think it's tremendous what you and your family, Josh, have been doing.
00:09:34.280 | You have children and you're on the road and you're working.
00:09:37.640 | This is not something that would be entirely possible, at least on such a widespread level,
00:09:44.080 | only a few years ago.
00:09:46.320 | And now it is.
00:09:47.320 | And that's part of what really took us to the road, was to find this underworld that
00:09:51.520 | you're talking about and hear their stories and learn about them and find out why they
00:09:57.400 | left maybe a comfortable suburban life and are now living on the road.
00:10:04.280 | We are meeting some amazing people.
00:10:05.960 | And that's what fascinates me about your project because you're not just doing it for fun.
00:10:10.880 | You're doing this for fun, for the adventure of it, for the change in your life.
00:10:15.000 | But you're also doing it as a reporting project.
00:10:17.560 | And one of the things I'm intrigued to ask you about now and also to learn as you continue
00:10:22.640 | your reporting project is the change that's happening in terms of culture.
00:10:27.000 | The first van dweller that I ever met was a guy named Fred.
00:10:31.320 | And Fred was this older guy, overweight, long stringy hair, probably, I assume, an aging
00:10:38.200 | hippie.
00:10:39.200 | And he had this old broken down Dodge cart conversion van that he slept in.
00:10:44.040 | And it was packed with junk.
00:10:47.160 | And I had a friend of mine who had an acre and a quarter in his house.
00:10:49.960 | And somehow he had come in contact with Fred.
00:10:52.360 | And Fred had permission to park his van overnight on my friend's property.
00:10:57.480 | But it was just under a pine tree in a sort of semi-suburban lot.
00:11:01.720 | And I would look at Fred and I never really talked to him much.
00:11:05.160 | But he almost looked like the stereotypical broken down older guy with just junk everywhere.
00:11:12.040 | It was a very dirty and disheveled appearance.
00:11:15.040 | It just didn't seem like anything attractive.
00:11:17.520 | Now fast forward to today, you guys are not dirty and disheveled.
00:11:24.360 | And I-
00:11:25.360 | Most of the time.
00:11:26.360 | Most of the time, indeed.
00:11:27.400 | But I mean, you guys are professionals.
00:11:30.320 | Chris you are an experienced attorney.
00:11:33.600 | Sorry, Chris, you're an experienced reporter.
00:11:36.960 | You've done all kinds of appearances on TV.
00:11:39.120 | And Christy, you're an attorney.
00:11:40.280 | And you guys are highly educated, affluent, upper middle, upper class elite type of culture.
00:11:46.880 | And yet this is van life.
00:11:49.240 | And I'm wondering if there is a change.
00:11:51.200 | If this is-
00:11:52.200 | And if so, why?
00:11:53.640 | Why are people like you doing something that used to be you would have to be a dirty aging
00:11:58.480 | hippie to do?
00:12:01.840 | I think there's a lot of answers to that question.
00:12:04.720 | For us personally, apart from the fact that this is the cheapest and most efficient way
00:12:10.520 | for us to travel with all of our possessions across the country and interview people for
00:12:15.080 | this project, for us it's really stepping into a completely different type of life.
00:12:25.120 | Like Chris said, we got rid of almost all of our possessions.
00:12:29.400 | We're living in 72 square feet, which is 12 by six by six.
00:12:34.560 | We have to be very careful about our water consumption because we provide our own water
00:12:41.560 | because we have a completely self-contained water system where we have to go to a campground
00:12:48.040 | or a gas station or something and fill up our water bottles.
00:12:50.760 | We have to monitor our electricity.
00:12:53.820 | And so we're thinking about electricity.
00:12:55.120 | We have to dispose of all of our trash.
00:12:56.640 | We're not at campgrounds.
00:12:58.200 | There's no dumpsters to put our trash in.
00:13:01.600 | And so this has been, first of all, learning what things we can live with, what things
00:13:08.240 | we can live without, and what things we can be self-sustaining in, like our electricity,
00:13:14.640 | our water, feeding ourselves, finding places to stay every night.
00:13:21.840 | But sorry, I lost my train of thought.
00:13:24.600 | Well, I think Josh, to your question, I think it all comes down to one of the great lies
00:13:30.160 | in American culture, and that is if you have things and you have a house and you buy more
00:13:35.800 | things than your neighbor, you will be happy.
00:13:38.480 | And these things will make you happy.
00:13:39.720 | And the house in the suburbs will make you happy and the fancy job.
00:13:43.200 | And we're at this moment right now, I think, Josh, where people are realizing that that
00:13:46.360 | is not making them as happy as they were told their whole lives it would.
00:13:51.200 | And they're searching for something a little bit more, something more fulfilling, and realizing
00:13:56.960 | they don't need all of these things in order to live the life that they were promised when
00:14:01.880 | they took out that big loan to go to school and spent all of that time acquiring things.
00:14:07.800 | And we're at the nexus right now where people are realizing that, and the technology and
00:14:12.600 | the price have come to a place where a lot of people can do it.
00:14:16.680 | And that was not the case many years ago.
00:14:18.240 | It was really people on the far fringes years ago that were doing this, because it was extreme.
00:14:23.960 | It was even harder.
00:14:25.480 | But now, with technology, the ability to find places to stay, the ability to connect with
00:14:30.240 | other people that are living this lifestyle, it broadens it to a lot more people so that
00:14:36.800 | somebody who's just not feeling very fulfilled in life and realizing that maybe they got
00:14:41.200 | hoodwinked can actually take something like this on.
00:14:45.240 | And I think that nexus in time and technology and affordability is what's causing this right
00:14:50.320 | now.
00:14:51.320 | Do you ever feel, have you felt, or have you felt a little guilty about...
00:14:57.880 | I just sometimes think of how hard many of our forebearers worked to build the good life,
00:15:05.400 | to work hard, to build shelter and to provide income and to provide a stable home base.
00:15:10.560 | And I sometimes wonder if we who are younger, who tend to be vocally despising of some of
00:15:19.080 | those things, I wonder if we should feel guilty for that.
00:15:24.640 | It almost feels a little strange to know that the things that other people worked so hard
00:15:28.960 | for, we have such abundance that we just walk away from them.
00:15:33.920 | And I'll give an example.
00:15:35.880 | A few years ago, I visited a small museum in a little dusty town in Wyoming where my
00:15:42.400 | grandmother lives.
00:15:43.880 | And it showed the...
00:15:48.360 | The house was preserved as it was, and it was a wealthy person in town's house.
00:15:52.160 | And it had the horsehair sofa that was positioned in the parlor.
00:15:54.920 | And I was looking at this horsehair sofa, and there was a little sign and a plaque talking
00:16:01.320 | about how much it cost and how expensive it was.
00:16:03.560 | And it was a very beautiful chair.
00:16:05.960 | And in looking at it, I was imagining how nice it would have been for that family who
00:16:13.360 | had that piece of furniture shipped from the East Coast all the way out to Wyoming and
00:16:19.320 | had it in their house as something that was beautiful and nice and comfortable and luxurious.
00:16:25.120 | And they were in a very austere environment.
00:16:27.300 | And how that was a status symbol that had real meaning, and it was very satisfying for
00:16:32.040 | them.
00:16:33.040 | Meanwhile, I'm just thinking about the dumpster, the dumpsters and the sides of the road where
00:16:37.440 | I live, and recognizing how nowadays we just toss these things out left and right, and
00:16:43.200 | it has no meaning.
00:16:45.280 | I guess my question doesn't really have a point.
00:16:47.640 | It just seems weird and hard to grapple with in terms of the sheer physical material abundance
00:16:54.120 | that we have.
00:16:55.300 | And now the next step seems to be that we just walk away from it and get rid of all
00:16:59.960 | of our nice stuff and move into a small van or an RV.
00:17:03.640 | I sometimes wonder what our grandparents would say.
00:17:06.920 | I think your question has a great point, Josh.
00:17:10.560 | Let's face some facts.
00:17:12.280 | One is that we live in an incredibly privileged time and an incredibly privileged place.
00:17:19.760 | And this kind of living in a van does come from a place of privilege.
00:17:23.960 | There are a lot of people who do it because there's nowhere else to go.
00:17:29.120 | And that, I think, is a different thing.
00:17:31.800 | I think it's important for us to really recognize the privilege that we have in this
00:17:36.040 | opportunity to do this.
00:17:38.000 | But you're totally right.
00:17:40.720 | You go far back enough, anyone in our families were living very different lives and hoping
00:17:46.880 | and dreaming of very different futures.
00:17:50.240 | But I think every generation gets the right to define what makes them happy and what their
00:17:55.880 | goals are.
00:17:57.000 | And there's a lot of systems that have been set up by the previous generations that worked
00:18:01.040 | for them.
00:18:02.680 | And I think it's our right to redefine those systems if we want to and explore maybe what
00:18:08.320 | went wrong and what we can do better and whether those systems are fulfilling and right for
00:18:14.000 | us and our future generations.
00:18:17.560 | I know Christy's family came from Cuba as refugees and worked very hard to get back
00:18:25.080 | on their feet as non-English speaking Americans, learning the language, getting an education,
00:18:30.840 | and trying to thrive in their own businesses.
00:18:34.520 | And now their daughter says she's moving into a van and it probably sounded pretty
00:18:40.200 | crazy to her parents when we told them, even though they did help us build it in their
00:18:45.360 | front yard.
00:18:46.440 | But I think you make a great point about that.
00:18:50.600 | But still, even if some of those systems, those systems are not perfect that were built
00:18:55.920 | by the baby boomers and built by the generation before them.
00:18:58.880 | And I think it's a sign of progress to be trying to redefine how we live our lives and
00:19:03.160 | noticing the things that we're told should make us happy and going, "You know what?
00:19:07.840 | I don't need that."
00:19:08.920 | And I think it really gets us back to something a lot more simple and something a lot more
00:19:13.560 | satisfying.
00:19:14.560 | - Yeah, I think this quest for happiness, I've been thinking a lot about it recently
00:19:20.520 | in terms of the, there's almost this social angst where people feel as though if they
00:19:28.240 | are unhappy that there's something wrong with them.
00:19:31.600 | And there's this quest for happiness that people are trying to pursue in many different
00:19:35.440 | ways.
00:19:36.440 | And it's not all bad in my opinion, but it's not necessarily all good.
00:19:39.720 | I think there's more to it than just meaning, which is why, there's more to life than just
00:19:46.360 | this desire for happiness or hedonistic self-indulgence.
00:19:50.720 | And I think that to me is one of the things that people are looking for, whether they
00:19:55.680 | would put those labels on it or not.
00:19:58.160 | So with your report, go ahead.
00:20:00.560 | - Our culture and our economy is set up to make sure that you're unhappy most of the
00:20:05.840 | time because if you're perfectly satisfied and happy, you don't need to buy anything.
00:20:10.200 | And they need you to continue to buy things even though you might not need a new couch,
00:20:16.100 | they make you feel like you do.
00:20:17.900 | And that feeling of lacking, that you don't have what it takes unless you buy this thing,
00:20:25.480 | that's something that permeates within our culture.
00:20:28.240 | And I'll say that capitalism has helped create one of the most abundant or the most abundant
00:20:35.640 | and privileged societies of all time, but there are strings attached.
00:20:40.920 | And that is a kind of a constant feeling that you're unsatisfied because people who have
00:20:45.720 | a great interest in making money off of you need you to feel a little unsatisfied.
00:20:50.640 | - Yeah, the premise of our project is sort of that the American dream and the pursuit
00:20:56.040 | of happiness in the pursuit of material things and material success has failed a lot of people.
00:21:03.000 | And especially a lot of people in our generation are starting to question whether those things
00:21:07.520 | and that material success is actually the key to happiness in life.
00:21:12.880 | I know for me personally, I spent a long time in my 20s when I was a practicing attorney
00:21:18.200 | and very unhappy, trying to find happiness and trying to figure out why am I unhappy
00:21:25.800 | everything is great, life is wonderful, we have all these things and just continually
00:21:32.000 | finding that I wasn't as happy as I thought I should be.
00:21:38.100 | And I think as you grow up, when you get older, you start to realize like life is not about
00:21:43.000 | me and my feelings and not about my trying to like achieve this level of happiness that
00:21:50.680 | I think I should have, but rather life is about other people, what we do with our time
00:21:57.640 | that matters, our families, the good things that we are putting into the world.
00:22:04.800 | And that's something that we're really kind of pursuing and seeking out as we do this
00:22:10.660 | project as well.
00:22:11.820 | Part of our project is, we have nowhere to be, we don't have to be interviewing people
00:22:19.040 | if we don't want to, we can go anywhere and do anything.
00:22:23.280 | And so when you have absolute freedom, what kind of values and what kind of disciplines
00:22:30.200 | do you want to instill in your life?
00:22:32.700 | And so for us, we're really like trying to figure out like, okay, when you're traveling
00:22:36.300 | every day, when you're going to all these beautiful places, when you're talking to all
00:22:39.560 | these interesting people, how do you figure out how to have some quiet time in the morning
00:22:45.640 | where you read and meditate and contemplate things?
00:22:49.200 | And how do you make time to write and do the things you're supposed to do for your projects?
00:22:55.000 | And how do you make time for exercise and eating healthy and all that when we could
00:23:00.040 | do absolutely anything and stay at vineyards every night and drink and eat cheese every
00:23:05.200 | night if we wanted to?
00:23:06.680 | Yeah, my wife and I are experiencing the same challenge.
00:23:10.560 | It's interesting when you remove some of the constraints, I don't think often people who
00:23:16.760 | are very constrained seem to feel that if you would just remove the constraints, everything
00:23:21.120 | would be wonderful and they would be happy.
00:23:24.240 | But I've learned that absence of constraints does not equal happiness.
00:23:29.360 | Actually that's a structure, a discipline, a schedule, a system.
00:23:35.900 | Those things really help, that structured approach to life really, really helps.
00:23:40.200 | I used to despise working a nine to five job, Monday through Friday.
00:23:43.400 | I don't want to work this job.
00:23:45.280 | Well now in hindsight I recognize that hey, the nine to five, Monday through Friday type
00:23:49.040 | of work, it really helps.
00:23:50.640 | And I try to work on a Monday through Friday, nine to five schedule myself because it's
00:23:55.040 | good for my productivity and it's good for my mental health.
00:23:58.200 | So I'll be interested to hear how your habits develop and what you find.
00:24:03.840 | What have you found so far?
00:24:05.160 | How much structure has been helpful to you?
00:24:09.200 | Well I think it's really important Josh to make sure you know what your priorities
00:24:13.200 | are.
00:24:14.200 | And for us it's time spent present with one another that's undistracted.
00:24:19.320 | So we try to make sure that there are technologies that are distracting put away at times when
00:24:24.760 | we need to be together.
00:24:27.320 | In the morning, knowing each person's role because everything is a chore when you live
00:24:32.720 | in a van.
00:24:33.720 | Nothing is automatic.
00:24:35.120 | So I'm in charge of water and I have to make sure that there's always water in our system.
00:24:39.640 | We carry a hundred liters at full capacity and that goes quicker than you think.
00:24:44.540 | Or making breakfast, making coffee, making lunch throughout the day.
00:24:49.120 | Making sure that we have set aside time that we can read in the morning and take a quiet
00:24:55.460 | time with one another.
00:24:56.880 | And then also one practice that we've been trying to stay to keep doing is hiking each
00:25:02.600 | day.
00:25:03.820 | The level of I guess positive things that come from that we found is just so abundant
00:25:10.440 | and it's important to do that.
00:25:12.400 | Because like Christy kind of hinted at, you could just do nothing all day.
00:25:18.760 | You could just drive all day and without that structure that you put on yourself you could
00:25:23.420 | really find yourself in a rut.
00:25:25.640 | Prior to your van life, I know Chris you were very busy working as a reporter in the Manhattan
00:25:32.560 | national, international news media scene.
00:25:37.480 | And Christy very busy in that Manhattan life as well.
00:25:41.080 | I can't think of a bigger contrast to go from busy, fast-paced downtown New York City to
00:25:47.520 | what you've just described.
00:25:48.960 | How has that affected your relationship?
00:25:50.880 | Well, you know, that's actually interesting Josh.
00:25:55.620 | When we moved to New York City, Chris and I made some big life changes.
00:26:00.760 | When we moved from Washington DC.
00:26:02.680 | Yeah, when we moved from Washington DC to New York City, Chris and I made some big life
00:26:06.240 | changes and we decided to be very disciplined in how we spent our time together.
00:26:13.780 | So when Chris came home from work, we have like a basket next to the front door where
00:26:17.780 | he puts his cell phone, I put my cell phone.
00:26:20.220 | Everyone leaves their cell phones in that basket.
00:26:22.240 | And we spend time together, we spend time reading, we spend time listening to audio
00:26:27.000 | books, going on walks, going to museums and the parks.
00:26:32.120 | And so we've kind of started those sort of disciplines before we moved into the van.
00:26:38.880 | And so they've kind of continued into our van life, which is good.
00:26:45.840 | But let's say that van life is a huge adjustment.
00:26:49.360 | So the first week I would say was pretty difficult, Josh.
00:26:53.840 | It didn't help that it was cold, it was raining, and Christy had kind of thrown at her back
00:26:58.640 | a little bit.
00:26:59.640 | And that required me to do just about everything.
00:27:03.160 | And Christy likes to have things done a certain way.
00:27:06.020 | And if she can't do them, she has to communicate it to me and I do everything pretty poorly.
00:27:14.800 | So things like not understanding the systems of the van quite well enough to do them smoothly.
00:27:21.560 | For example, we have to build our bed every night.
00:27:24.560 | We have kind of a couch system and then the bedding is underneath in a storage area and
00:27:30.200 | then there's a central thing that we put across the top that makes it into like a queen-size
00:27:34.960 | bed.
00:27:35.960 | But you have to put that together at night and you have to take it down in the morning.
00:27:39.080 | And if it's raining outside, you're both in the van, it's 72 square feet, you're running
00:27:42.640 | into each other.
00:27:44.100 | You have to learn to be patient.
00:27:45.720 | You have to learn to communicate and you have to learn grace.
00:27:50.040 | Because you can just rack up offenses all day long and unless you're able to forgive
00:27:57.400 | and to take a deep breath, it's going to be really difficult.
00:28:00.080 | The van life is not for everyone.
00:28:02.640 | As I think any listener will attest that they wouldn't want to live in something so small.
00:28:07.040 | They wouldn't want the extra chores of having to haul your own water like you live out in
00:28:10.480 | the woods or something.
00:28:12.900 | But I find great value in both the communication that we're able, the communication skills
00:28:18.080 | we're able to develop together as a couple and also what manual and physical labor does
00:28:24.980 | for your body and your mind.
00:28:27.420 | It makes you grateful.
00:28:28.420 | It makes you realize where things come from.
00:28:31.200 | And I think there's something that is lost when physical labor is taken out of our lives,
00:28:36.400 | which it was for me for so many years.
00:28:38.360 | And now that it's back, Josh, in the build of the van, which it took us one month to
00:28:44.440 | do every day, about eight to 10 hours a day, I learned physical labor for the first time
00:28:50.360 | because I'm just a suburban kid that never worked a day in his life in any real sense.
00:28:56.200 | And I loved it.
00:28:57.560 | And I was very surprised to find that about myself.
00:29:00.640 | I'm convinced that...
00:29:02.040 | Go ahead, Christy.
00:29:04.840 | As far as the relationship goes, I would say, as Chris said, the first week was incredibly
00:29:10.600 | difficult.
00:29:11.760 | One of the most difficult probably weeks of our five-year marriage so far.
00:29:16.360 | Josh, let me just say, I didn't realize that.
00:29:22.400 | But I will say, living in a van and basically having to do everything ourselves and figure
00:29:29.120 | out these systems to make things a little bit easier and make things work really does
00:29:35.040 | add to this level of teamwork that may be in a more automatic lifestyle where you have
00:29:40.960 | regular running water and regular electricity and all these things that just happen kind
00:29:45.360 | of automatically.
00:29:47.680 | I found that it's really helped us to become a team and rely on each other much more than
00:29:54.680 | we were before.
00:29:55.920 | Before I would do certain things and Chris would do certain things, but they were kind
00:29:59.820 | of in their own realms and separate.
00:30:02.120 | And now we have to work together as a team every single day to do things that we couldn't
00:30:07.840 | do just on our own.
00:30:10.240 | Has taking responsibility for your living conditions in such a physical way impacted
00:30:17.720 | your confidence in any way?
00:30:21.240 | Oh, absolutely.
00:30:24.040 | So I'd never used a power tool before I built my own house a couple months ago.
00:30:31.440 | And I was never able to do anything.
00:30:33.400 | I grew up in a way where I never gave myself the patience to do anything that was that
00:30:37.920 | difficult because we live in a very automatic society where if something doesn't work,
00:30:42.000 | you throw it away, you buy a new one or you pay somebody to fix it.
00:30:45.480 | That is how I grew up.
00:30:47.920 | In our house, if something was too frustrating or took too long, we would just drop it and
00:30:51.360 | go get ice cream.
00:30:52.360 | I mean, that was just the way it was.
00:30:55.560 | And when you build your own house, nothing is going to come together automatically.
00:31:00.360 | You must look at a challenge and figure out how to get over that mountain.
00:31:05.280 | You must build the thing or else you're not going to have a house.
00:31:08.680 | And I remember, Josh, there were nights after a long day's work and we hadn't figured
00:31:13.840 | out some problem, whether it was with the electrical or how to design the bed or the
00:31:18.200 | kitchen.
00:31:19.200 | I was thinking, "How are we going to do this?"
00:31:22.600 | And then the next morning, we'd get ourselves a fresh pot of coffee and a good night's
00:31:26.360 | sleep, and we'd figure it out.
00:31:28.600 | And doing that repeated over and over and over, yes, tremendously built confidence.
00:31:35.840 | Now after doing this, we feel like with enough help from YouTube and from communities on
00:31:42.280 | social media and some practice, we can do just about anything.
00:31:46.400 | We're talking about building a real house someday.
00:31:48.640 | It's like, "Oh, well, a house is a rectangle.
00:31:50.880 | That's easy because our van is more like a tube.
00:31:53.520 | You have to build around the circle and overcome all those challenges.
00:31:57.160 | But we can build anything in a rectangle."
00:31:58.960 | And I never in my wildest dreams would have ever thought that I could maybe do something
00:32:03.360 | as even simple as insulating a house or, gosh, installing something or building something
00:32:09.840 | with wood and using carpentry.
00:32:12.480 | I had no idea that you can do it.
00:32:16.080 | And I'm coming at it from the most ignorant, the least skilled person.
00:32:20.840 | And with a little bit of help, we did it.
00:32:24.320 | And so yes, if you do a big project like this, especially with your wife, you will learn
00:32:29.640 | a lot about your relationship and also feel pretty confident that you can take challenges
00:32:34.920 | in the future.
00:32:35.920 | Christy, what was your experience?
00:32:37.480 | Because you also came from more of the academic world, but you were doing this, in my understanding,
00:32:44.560 | you were one of the major designers in this project.
00:32:47.080 | What was your experience?
00:32:49.080 | Yeah, I did design the entire project and the entire van, which was not easy.
00:32:56.560 | So I do come from an academic background and research is something that I'm very good at.
00:33:02.880 | Like Chris said, so we decided to do this in February.
00:33:09.080 | We took the month of March basically to figure out which van we were going to buy, which
00:33:13.960 | type of van we're going to buy, and for me to actually do the design of where the beds
00:33:20.560 | would be, how the bed and seating system would work, what kind of kitchen we wanted, refrigerator,
00:33:27.080 | electricity, etc.
00:33:28.840 | And then we planned for a month basically, and then built for a month.
00:33:32.480 | And I don't recommend by any means building out your entire van in a month.
00:33:38.440 | But we just had a time crunch and we had to do it.
00:33:43.600 | And so it was really tough.
00:33:46.400 | We were doing it in my parents' front yard in Florida.
00:33:51.120 | And my dad is wonderful.
00:33:53.400 | He helped us a lot, but I had to conceptualize the entire van and every step that we were
00:34:01.360 | going to take, and then kind of direct Chris and my dad and buy all the things on Amazon
00:34:08.000 | or at Home Depot, whatever we needed in order to do the things we needed to do that day.
00:34:12.200 | And so I guess I kind of designed and was the project manager for the entire van build.
00:34:18.280 | And I mean, it does really give you a lot of confidence to say like, "Okay, we have
00:34:23.680 | these problems.
00:34:24.800 | We have to figure it out.
00:34:25.920 | There's no one else who could do it for us.
00:34:28.080 | And it has to be done today because we need to do something else tomorrow because we need
00:34:31.300 | to finish this thing."
00:34:33.440 | So it was, as anyone who works with their parents occasionally knows, it was difficult
00:34:39.160 | at times working with my dad, who is very handy, but sometimes a little bit stubborn.
00:34:48.760 | But we did it.
00:34:51.880 | I think we feel really like we have gained this confidence and these skills that are
00:34:57.480 | really going to keep on providing new opportunities throughout our lives.
00:35:03.120 | I look at things sometimes now, and I think Chris does too.
00:35:05.200 | He looks at a wooden fence and he's like, "I could build that."
00:35:07.840 | Or I look at a table and I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to build...
00:35:10.440 | Next time we live in a house, I'm going to build my own table and chairs."
00:35:14.080 | Never would have thought that before.
00:35:16.000 | Yeah.
00:35:17.720 | Having that kind of confidence just to say like, "Yeah, sure.
00:35:20.400 | We could figure that out.
00:35:21.400 | That's not a big deal."
00:35:22.400 | It's really wonderful.
00:35:25.600 | Something Chris and I have been thinking about and talking about, and maybe something we're
00:35:28.560 | going to think about and develop in our project is we feel like we live in this culture of
00:35:34.680 | constant convenience.
00:35:36.980 | So you need something and you just go on Amazon and you look for it and you get it.
00:35:41.480 | You get that exact specific thing that you need in order to meet your very specific first
00:35:48.160 | world need.
00:35:49.760 | And we found in the van build, it takes a lot of improvising, a lot of compromising,
00:35:56.080 | a lot of just trying to make things that were not meant to be a fixture in a van, part of
00:36:03.760 | a van.
00:36:04.760 | And so that skill of also just learning how to improvise and learning to make things work
00:36:11.160 | is super important in a van life, especially when now we don't have access to Amazon's
00:36:18.000 | next day delivery any longer.
00:36:20.520 | Because we're always traveling, we have to just figure out how to make things work.
00:36:24.700 | If something breaks on the road, we have to go to a Home Depot or Walmart and find whatever
00:36:30.540 | piece might relatively work in that situation.
00:36:35.780 | If we hadn't have done the van build ourselves, if something happened on the road, we would
00:36:38.980 | be really lost.
00:36:41.080 | And now we feel like we can do just about anything.
00:36:43.100 | Yeah, I think that's also one of the most important parts of building the van yourself.
00:36:47.780 | Chris and I know where all the electrical wires are behind the walls.
00:36:51.100 | If something in the electricity gets messed up, we can open up the wall, we can fix it.
00:36:56.100 | We know how all the plumbing works in the van.
00:36:58.560 | We know where all the screws and all the nuts and bolts are in the van.
00:37:02.300 | And so if something goes wrong, we know how to take it apart and how to put it back together
00:37:05.660 | and how we can figure out how to fix it.
00:37:08.820 | And that really gives us a lot of confidence on the road as well.
00:37:12.420 | I think back to the major theme of your work as far as what's going on in this generational
00:37:18.980 | change.
00:37:20.620 | To me, this story that you're describing of confidence is a major key to the component
00:37:27.340 | of people being confident themselves and being happy.
00:37:31.740 | In our modern world, we are often so specialized that the only thing we know how to do is a
00:37:37.860 | very specialized job that creates income.
00:37:41.660 | And we provide for most of our basic needs exclusively through the – I was going to
00:37:46.740 | say through writing checks, but more through the swiping of cards or the transferring of
00:37:51.180 | digital money.
00:37:52.500 | And so if something happens and something goes wrong, we have to transfer digital money.
00:37:57.180 | And then if there's a problem in that, it leads to this – I think often leads to this
00:38:02.220 | sense of helplessness.
00:38:04.260 | And the mental health of many of us who are younger, some of the objective research data
00:38:09.500 | indicates that we're not as confident as we once were.
00:38:12.900 | And I was more advanced when I was growing up as far as more experienced with construction
00:38:18.740 | projects, things like that, than perhaps you described, Chris.
00:38:22.780 | But still, it was never a real skill of mine.
00:38:24.620 | And over the years, I've tried to remedy that and build more skill.
00:38:29.580 | It's always hard for me because my brain doesn't really work in that physical way.
00:38:35.420 | But I keep going at it because it changes my confidence level.
00:38:38.540 | I used to look at a car engine and not have a clue where to start because although my
00:38:43.000 | dad tried to teach me about cars, I didn't pay attention.
00:38:45.980 | And then I said, "That's it.
00:38:47.500 | I'm going to start fixing some stuff myself."
00:38:49.380 | And then I learned, "Wait a second.
00:38:50.980 | There's basically the whole skill of fixing a car seems to be diagnosis.
00:38:55.780 | And I can go and find a manual and they'll say, 'Do this, then do that, then do that.'"
00:39:00.660 | And I probably could get a little closer to figuring out the problem.
00:39:04.620 | And then it's just usually a matter of bolting and unbolting some parts.
00:39:07.740 | And as I started to fix more things on my car, it built my confidence where I wasn't
00:39:11.460 | so intimidated by a broken car.
00:39:13.660 | And same thing for me as I've worked on my RV and on my house, I've developed more confidence.
00:39:20.660 | And that confidence in your ability to provide for your needs, the ability to provide your
00:39:26.340 | shelter, the ability to provide your food to some degree, the ability to provide entertainment
00:39:31.820 | for yourself, the ability to take care of your waste, that really changes something.
00:39:36.860 | There's something very human about that that all of our ancestors knew.
00:39:43.840 | And there's something very new about the last, say, half century, I think, half century to
00:39:50.300 | century, where we've lost touch with many of those basic things.
00:39:54.780 | And it's very hard to feel like you could just walk away from thousands and thousands
00:40:00.340 | of years of human experience into this modern brave new world and not lose something.
00:40:05.700 | And I'm convinced, just kind of providing my little suggestion for your reporting project,
00:40:10.300 | I'm convinced that's a core thing in our human experience that we need to make sure that
00:40:16.660 | we always cultivate.
00:40:20.420 | Well I think it speaks to why so many millennials are getting into craft industries, craft brewing,
00:40:26.300 | craft all kinds of stuff, you know, carpentry.
00:40:30.900 | We grew up in, for a lot of us, the last part of the 20th century when everything was just
00:40:36.340 | taken care of for us and we want to find out how things work ourselves.
00:40:41.100 | And I'm not some kind of doomsday person or anything, but I think it's important to know
00:40:46.020 | how your systems work and know what you're going to do if something bad does happen in
00:40:50.140 | any kind of varying degree.
00:40:52.260 | And I feel like a different person being on the other side of this.
00:40:55.940 | And we're only 5,000 miles into our journey and there's a lot more time to go.
00:41:01.220 | And I'm also grateful that after 5,000 miles, nothing has broken, so we built something
00:41:05.540 | at least semi-properly.
00:41:06.540 | But I think you really hit it on the head there, Josh.
00:41:12.300 | Yeah, and for us this is also a really pretty personal journey to try to figure out how
00:41:20.180 | we want to live and what kind of lifestyle we want to have.
00:41:25.420 | Obviously we've lived in urban centers for the last decade and we really enjoyed that
00:41:31.420 | and that was a great life.
00:41:33.300 | But we don't know going forward what kind of lives we want to live.
00:41:36.380 | If we want to live on a farm or if we want to live back in Manhattan, we have no idea.
00:41:41.820 | And so part of this journey is also for us to try to figure out what is the good life
00:41:45.300 | for us and what kind of life would provide the best kind of opportunities and the best
00:41:52.540 | lifestyle for the future family we hope to have.
00:41:56.660 | So let's transition to your reporting project because I know this is a major component in
00:42:01.060 | addition to the personal inquiry that you just described.
00:42:04.100 | A major component for you is what you're doing.
00:42:07.740 | You're writing, you're publishing and you're doing this as a reporting project.
00:42:11.980 | So tell us about what you have done so far, who have you spoken with and what have you
00:42:16.900 | learned so far in terms of your cultural analysis regarding people who are choosing to live
00:42:21.540 | a different life?
00:42:22.540 | Well, we are looking for people that have not only opted out of conventional ways of
00:42:27.300 | doing things but are trying something new and really thriving.
00:42:31.180 | I think my entrance point for it was the personal finance community, the FIRE community, Financial
00:42:38.020 | Independence Retire Early, as your listeners know so much about.
00:42:41.660 | And I realized, "Oh my goodness, here is this thriving community of people.
00:42:45.060 | They're having conventions, they're having meetings, they have their podcasts, they have
00:42:47.820 | their profits, they have all of these people in the community that are saying, 'You don't
00:42:53.260 | have to live the way your parents did and here's how you can do it and here's how you
00:42:57.660 | can afford it.'"
00:42:59.140 | And that opened my eyes completely and then that led on to people that are doing different
00:43:03.900 | things in real estate like with the van life community or with food, people that are opting
00:43:08.620 | out of major food systems.
00:43:10.740 | And Christy and I realized that there are all these people with the same kind of common
00:43:16.240 | denominator of finding their own way forward.
00:43:19.420 | So here's what we've done so far.
00:43:21.380 | We met a wonderful family.
00:43:24.460 | They just wrote a book.
00:43:26.340 | Elizabeth Thames is the name of the author.
00:43:28.460 | She wrote a book called Meet the Frugal Woods.
00:43:30.620 | She and her husband saved a major percentage of their income while they lived in urban
00:43:35.940 | centers throughout their 20s and they've become financially independent in their early 30s.
00:43:41.420 | And with that independence, they chose to move to a homestead in rural Vermont where
00:43:46.220 | they live with their family now.
00:43:48.940 | And they have the choice of how and when they want to work and how and when they want to
00:43:53.300 | spend time with their family.
00:43:54.900 | And so we got to see their farmstead and see what it takes to live a life like that and
00:44:00.260 | what it takes to get there.
00:44:02.140 | It takes a lot of sacrifice, a lot of work, but it is possible to become financially independent.
00:44:08.740 | And then we went up into the mountains of New Hampshire and we embedded with a group
00:44:14.260 | that's called the Free State Project.
00:44:18.460 | And they have an annual meetup in the woods of New Hampshire.
00:44:21.080 | This is a movement to bring 20,000, I guess you could say broadly, libertarians to all
00:44:27.060 | move to the state of New Hampshire to kind of in part create a voting block, in part
00:44:32.940 | to build a community of anarchists, minarchists, libertarians, people that believe in a small
00:44:38.300 | state and kind of take over the state from within in their own way and set up their own
00:44:42.620 | systems, part of which are off grid, part of which are kind of their own little economy
00:44:48.340 | that is not attached to kind of mainstream ways of selling and buying goods.
00:44:54.740 | And we met so many different types of people that are living their lives the way they want
00:45:00.880 | to live on their terms.
00:45:03.020 | And that community in New Hampshire is just thriving with people who have opted out.
00:45:08.020 | And I think one of the big, one of the most interesting things I found is we've spoken
00:45:12.500 | with people, generally speaking, on the political far left, the political far right, and everywhere
00:45:18.060 | in between.
00:45:19.780 | And in this really polarized political time, you find incredible similarities between the
00:45:25.180 | most conservative person and the most liberal person and the reasons that they want to build
00:45:30.380 | their own systems and opt out of the way everyone else has told them they need to live.
00:45:36.060 | Not to be all kumbaya here, but there's a lot more that unites us with these people.
00:45:41.540 | If you just step back, get off political Twitter.
00:45:44.060 | And which you have been part of for many years.
00:45:48.740 | And just talk to people.
00:45:50.060 | You will find that people are speaking the same language, but unfortunately, they're
00:45:55.060 | not listening to one another.
00:45:57.740 | Just one comment on that.
00:45:58.920 | You mentioned political Twitter.
00:46:00.300 | I have a, I don't know what to call it, a soft spot, an indulgence, a weakness, an
00:46:08.860 | addiction.
00:46:09.860 | I have a, I am prone to political Twitter.
00:46:14.460 | And one of the things that I have learned that I've had to do is just disconnect from
00:46:18.740 | it because it's so destructive.
00:46:21.100 | And I don't know if I'm an addict, a Twitter addict, hi, my name is Joshua and I'm a Twitter
00:46:26.460 | addict or something, but it seems like I have to run so far away from the bottle that I
00:46:35.500 | can't even look across the county at the bar.
00:46:37.980 | Otherwise, I wind up wending my way back into it.
00:46:42.620 | Just obviously, you're talking about it in terms of an addiction.
00:46:45.980 | But as I've gotten on the road, I've been able to more easily and more consistently,
00:46:51.540 | and you don't have to go travel for this.
00:46:53.700 | I've put all kinds of safeguards in place in other times as well, but it's just a little
00:46:57.060 | easier on the road to be totally away from the internet.
00:47:00.660 | And as I've done that, I go back and it just all looks so stupid.
00:47:06.700 | And I think, is this what I thought mattered?
00:47:10.240 | This is stupid.
00:47:11.660 | And yet, this is something that these stupid arguments, these stupid debates, this was
00:47:16.100 | something that I thought was really important a few years ago when I was embroiled in the
00:47:20.180 | midst of it.
00:47:21.940 | And it's fascinating because you're right, there is so much more that unites us than
00:47:26.980 | that divides us, but it sure seems like you've got to take a step back to recognize that.
00:47:31.580 | You do, and part of the opting out has to be from technology addiction.
00:47:39.100 | Technology is a very powerful thing.
00:47:41.620 | It's a wonderful thing.
00:47:42.620 | It's connected lots of people.
00:47:43.620 | It's changed lives.
00:47:44.620 | It's created new economies and new marketplaces.
00:47:47.480 | But it's roped a lot of us in to a point where we're neglecting things that are more important,
00:47:52.800 | our families and our communities.
00:47:55.300 | And there's something about scrolling that part of Twitter or YouTube that makes you
00:48:00.300 | mad.
00:48:01.300 | It's endorphins that makes you feel good in a weird, strange way.
00:48:05.700 | But tell me the truth, Josh, after the end of an hour of scrolling political Twitter,
00:48:09.980 | do you feel really good?
00:48:10.980 | I don't think you do.
00:48:11.980 | >>JOSHUA COREY Absolutely not.
00:48:12.980 | No question.
00:48:13.980 | >>ANDREW BRODIN Of course not.
00:48:14.980 | >>JOSHUA COREY It affects me big time.
00:48:16.660 | >>ANDREW BRODIN Right.
00:48:18.020 | But it's not necessarily our fault because these systems are so powerful.
00:48:23.020 | They do reel us in in a way, and that includes pretty pictures on Instagram, even that too.
00:48:29.900 | It is addicting, and it's important to set up those safeguards just like someone who
00:48:34.460 | has another kind of addiction will need to do as well.
00:48:38.700 | And you're right, being on the road does help.
00:48:41.060 | But without those safeguards, I'm the same way, and I think many people are.
00:48:45.000 | You just find yourself roped back in.
00:48:47.460 | And I think that is what is really exacerbating this moment, this cultural moment that we're
00:48:51.760 | living in right now.
00:48:53.420 | Because the hate, all the anger is around you at all times.
00:48:59.380 | You feel completely surrounded by it because you're consuming it from morning until night.
00:49:05.180 | And people didn't used to do that.
00:49:06.620 | And I think that whatever this is, is really doing a number on people's psyches, on people's
00:49:12.740 | souls.
00:49:14.700 | And we have to be able to control ourselves, but it is really difficult to do so.
00:49:18.580 | And I think the only way to do is to set up hedges that protect us.
00:49:21.860 | Otherwise, we're just going to sit and binge on Netflix all day.
00:49:26.620 | At least I would.
00:49:27.740 | Indeed.
00:49:28.740 | It's one thing about doing all your internet through a data plan where you have a cap.
00:49:33.340 | Limits are healthy.
00:49:34.340 | Budgets are healthy.
00:49:35.500 | Data caps on your phone are healthy.
00:49:39.420 | Hedges are healthy, just like we talked about earlier in terms of the structure of a day.
00:49:43.100 | So my hope, Chris and Christy, is that my community, the radicals here who are part
00:49:48.460 | of Radical Personal Finance, can help you to discover some cool new stories that you
00:49:53.660 | can use in the book that you're writing, in the projects that you're working on about
00:49:58.740 | people who have opted out.
00:50:00.140 | Because I know of, there are some amazing people in the audience here.
00:50:05.000 | So who would you like to connect with and what kinds of stories would you like to be
00:50:10.020 | able to hear and to profile that will help you with the project that you're working on?
00:50:17.440 | So we are traveling the country and talking to people who are choosing to live differently
00:50:22.140 | and opt out of the mainstream.
00:50:24.700 | But our topics are very broad.
00:50:27.320 | So of course, your audience is the personal finance audience.
00:50:32.100 | We'd love to talk to people who are part of the FIRE community, who are choosing to retire
00:50:38.660 | early, who are choosing to be very frugal, and all of those things.
00:50:43.860 | We're also looking to talk to people who are choosing to opt out of real estate, like we
00:50:49.220 | said, not just live in a van or live mobily, but people who are living off the grid, who
00:50:53.900 | are homesteading, who are choosing to grow their own food, choosing to be self-sufficient
00:51:00.460 | from the rest of the grid.
00:51:05.500 | We want to talk to people who are opting out of technology in different ways, people who
00:51:09.860 | are choosing to opt in to different types of intentional communities or intentional
00:51:14.820 | lifestyles.
00:51:16.320 | So it's very broad.
00:51:18.820 | Basically, anyone who's choosing to live outside the normal suburban, 9-to-5 job, white
00:51:25.820 | collar, have lots of stuff in your garage kind of lifestyle, those are the people we
00:51:29.740 | want to talk to.
00:51:30.740 | And if anyone can get me into Camp Mustache so I can see what that's all about, that'd
00:51:33.900 | be awesome too.
00:51:34.900 | Yeah, we'd really like to do that.
00:51:35.900 | That's easy.
00:51:36.900 | As I sit here recording this, I'm sitting here in Mr. Money Mustache's co-working space
00:51:42.020 | in downtown Longmont.
00:51:44.100 | We just had a meetup last night and so I could do that for you, Chris.
00:51:49.620 | I could easily make that happen.
00:51:50.860 | Great success.
00:51:51.860 | All right.
00:51:52.860 | Indeed.
00:51:53.860 | Well, tell us all the website, the news profiles that you set up as far as the news channels
00:51:59.180 | where people can follow you and follow your journey.
00:52:01.740 | All right.
00:52:02.740 | Pull out your phone.
00:52:03.740 | Follow us at LifeOptedOut on Instagram, L-I-F-E-O-P-T-E-D-O-U-T, LifeOptedOut, and on LifeOptedOut.com.
00:52:13.220 | And then you can email us at OptOutMedia@gmail.com.
00:52:18.620 | That's OptOutMedia@gmail.com.
00:52:21.040 | Love to hear from people.
00:52:22.040 | Love to hear your stories.
00:52:23.100 | And hopefully we can come visit and say hello.
00:52:25.060 | We're also going to be launching our own podcast, LifeOptedOut podcast, to tell the stories
00:52:29.700 | of the people that we're meeting.
00:52:32.580 | And we're really excited to meet all different kinds of people because I truly do believe
00:52:37.220 | that this is a story about a moment in our country's history that is really going to
00:52:42.460 | be important and really pave the way for how we live in the future.
00:52:45.940 | So let's hear your stories.
00:52:47.940 | Yeah.
00:52:49.540 | We feel that there's many ways for people to live out their values.
00:52:53.740 | And really the uniting theme between all the different types of people that we would like
00:52:58.820 | to interview are people who are choosing to live intentionally, to live according to a
00:53:03.180 | very specific set of values.
00:53:05.900 | And it's not that we necessarily are endorsing everyone's extreme lifestyles or everyone's
00:53:10.300 | values out there.
00:53:12.020 | But we think that being exposed to new ideas causes us to stop and think and question our
00:53:17.580 | own life choices and hopefully helps us to live a better life in the future.
00:53:23.260 | And be more empathetic as well.
00:53:24.900 | Yeah.
00:53:25.900 | Absolutely.
00:53:26.900 | Chris Christie, thank you for coming on.
00:53:27.900 | I'll link to all of those pages in the show notes for today and I hope we can meet up
00:53:32.100 | out on the road.
00:53:33.820 | Thanks for having us, Josh.
00:53:35.380 | Happy trails.
00:53:37.160 | As we close today's interview, I want to bring your attention to a few themes that you can
00:53:40.540 | observe in Chris and Christie's story.
00:53:43.980 | And I hope that you will file them away in the back of your mind in case they ever become
00:53:48.500 | useful to you.
00:53:50.220 | Number one, if you are ever laid off, I want to encourage you to view that layoff as an
00:53:55.860 | opportunity.
00:53:56.860 | Now, if you are in financial distress at the time of your layoff, it will most likely not
00:54:03.820 | be easy to view it as an opportunity.
00:54:06.220 | At the very least, you should view it as an opportunity to get a newer and better job.
00:54:10.820 | After all, they pushed you out the door.
00:54:13.420 | Maybe you can go and find something better.
00:54:14.820 | But if you're not in financial distress, and I beg of you, make sure that you're not in
00:54:18.500 | financial distress.
00:54:19.500 | Make sure that you're spending much less than you're making.
00:54:21.700 | Make sure that you have savings on hand.
00:54:23.540 | Make sure that your debt burden is low.
00:54:24.860 | And if you'll do those things, you will not be in financial distress should you ever become
00:54:28.740 | laid off.
00:54:29.920 | So if you're not in financial distress, then I encourage you consider viewing a layoff
00:54:34.620 | as an opportunity for you to do something that you have wanted to do for a while.
00:54:39.660 | Here's what's cool.
00:54:40.820 | Frequently a layoff will come with something like a severance package, especially if you
00:54:44.340 | work in a white collar industry.
00:54:46.420 | That severance package can give you a place where you can begin something new while having
00:54:52.380 | income from something old.
00:54:54.340 | Go back and listen to the episode that I did with a financial samurai on how to get laid
00:54:57.500 | off from your job.
00:54:58.660 | Consider getting his book.
00:55:00.340 | But one of the great things is if you get laid off, you can use that as a point in time
00:55:05.060 | where you're freed from some of your day-to-day obligations and you can try something new.
00:55:09.980 | One of the themes that I'm convinced has a great deal of value is in your life to pursue
00:55:15.060 | a series of sabbaticals, or one of the common terms used today is mini-retirements.
00:55:20.680 | This is not a new concept.
00:55:22.180 | The concept is simply that every few years you need a time of rest, a time of change,
00:55:27.360 | and you can work this in intentionally into your life.
00:55:30.220 | Now sabbaticals are most common in the academic context, but just because they're common there
00:55:34.380 | doesn't mean that you can't use them.
00:55:36.860 | Every seven years, every ten years, plan to take six months or a year off.
00:55:41.460 | And what you'll do is if you find yourself doing that, you can come back to your work
00:55:45.340 | re-energized and rejuvenated and ready to go with a new project, ready to go with new
00:55:49.940 | focus for another period of time.
00:55:52.340 | You can negotiate this in the context of your current job, probably.
00:55:57.100 | Many people have, but some people can't.
00:55:59.340 | But what you can do is take advantage of a layoff to go on some sort of sabbatical, pursue
00:56:05.060 | some kind of project.
00:56:06.980 | Maybe it's a traveling project like Chris and Christy are doing where they've loaded
00:56:10.420 | up their van and they're traveling the country.
00:56:12.760 | Maybe it's a research project.
00:56:14.500 | Maybe you just want to work on your French and so you move to the south of France and
00:56:17.420 | spend a year there speaking French every day.
00:56:20.220 | That's up to you.
00:56:21.340 | But use it as an opportunity.
00:56:23.700 | If you will use that time of layoff and take a few months to think, work on something personal,
00:56:30.220 | take a vacation, then you'll be able to go into your next job more refreshed and rejuvenated.
00:56:35.900 | Here's a warning to you.
00:56:37.400 | Make sure that you keep your career going.
00:56:39.520 | The best way to keep your career going is keep your connections strong.
00:56:43.500 | Make sure that while you're in that time of layoff that you're keeping your connections
00:56:47.180 | to your career and you're keeping your network alive.
00:56:50.880 | It's also important that you have a good story to tell.
00:56:53.960 | So Chris and Christy, depending on what happens in the next year, they may wind up publishing
00:56:58.660 | their book and that is the launch of something new that they're excited about.
00:57:02.300 | Or they may return to their old careers.
00:57:05.540 | But the neat thing about it is they'll have a story to tell.
00:57:08.760 | So while they're in that interview, whenever they finish their trip, they will be asked
00:57:13.620 | about what have you done in the last year and they'll have a story to tell.
00:57:16.540 | They'll probably have a book to show.
00:57:18.220 | They'll have a media platform to show.
00:57:20.700 | And that will separate them and set them apart and distinguish them from many of their competitors
00:57:25.860 | who are competing for any jobs or businesses that they're seeking to build.
00:57:30.720 | So I encourage you, view a layoff as an opportunity.
00:57:34.340 | Number two, be flexible in your thinking.
00:57:36.620 | You'll notice that Chris and Christy are pursuing a very minimal approach to traveling.
00:57:41.660 | That can have a lot of advantages.
00:57:43.540 | One of the great advantages is the pure fun of traveling.
00:57:47.020 | It's a lot easier to travel with a small, inexpensive rig that you've built yourself.
00:57:51.780 | You can go more places and do more things, but it's also much more financially feasible.
00:57:56.540 | So if you have a goal of doing something like traveling, look for what's the minimum viable
00:58:02.020 | equipment.
00:58:03.900 | What's the minimum that you're willing to accept and go with that.
00:58:06.680 | Don't think that you need $300,000 for a 40-foot diesel pusher motor coach.
00:58:12.460 | Look to do it simpler and easier.
00:58:16.220 | And finally, pursue a project that you're interested in and make sure that you make
00:58:21.660 | time to cultivate a lifestyle where you are able to pursue those interests.
00:58:28.220 | One of the neat things that Chris and Christy mentioned is even while they were in the busy
00:58:32.340 | Manhattan lifestyle or while they were in the busy Washington DC lifestyle, Chris was
00:58:37.580 | a veteran political reporter.
00:58:39.700 | Even while they were in that, they were very intentional about the way that they lived.
00:58:43.940 | You don't have to live in a van down by the river to have some quiet time, but you do
00:58:47.940 | have to turn your phone off and leave it at the front door.
00:58:52.100 | It might be easier to have a little more quiet time living in a van down by the river, but
00:58:57.540 | it might not because there's a whole lot of work associated with that.
00:59:00.660 | So wherever you are and whatever you're doing, take time to enjoy the beauty around you.
00:59:05.260 | Take time to enjoy the beauty of relationship.
00:59:07.780 | Take time to be present and think about the life choices that you make.
00:59:12.940 | There are many people who are pursuing all kinds of what are called alternative lifestyles,
00:59:17.980 | but you know what?
00:59:19.940 | There are a lot of commonalities between those.
00:59:23.700 | Perhaps Chris and Christy published their book.
00:59:26.700 | Perhaps those commonalities will be clearly identified, but I have some ideas, which is
00:59:30.540 | why I started talking to them about the project.
00:59:32.100 | I have some ideas.
00:59:33.100 | Maybe I'll share them with you in a future podcast.
00:59:35.340 | But almost no matter where you go, no matter what point of the political spectrum you look
00:59:40.380 | at, no matter what point of the ideological spectrum, there are some really common variables
00:59:47.340 | that if you start analyzing the problems of modern life, you frequently arrive at some
00:59:52.140 | simple, common solutions.
00:59:55.940 | So consider those things for yourself.
00:59:57.940 | Hope you enjoyed the interview.
00:59:59.020 | Thank you for listening.
01:00:01.380 | Thank you for listening.
01:00:02.380 | You've honored me with your time and attention, and I'm grateful for that.
01:00:06.620 | And I hope that I've effectively served you today with some ideas and strategies and tactics
01:00:11.420 | and techniques and tools that will help move you towards your goals.
01:00:16.140 | Before you go, three simple requests.
01:00:18.580 | One, if there's an idea that's been helpful to you in today's show, make a plan to take
01:00:24.260 | action on it.
01:00:26.300 | Listening does lead to learning, but learning in and of itself doesn't automatically lead
01:00:31.740 | to a life change.
01:00:34.060 | It's action that leads to a life change.
01:00:38.060 | So take action.
01:00:39.740 | Two, take something that was helpful to you in today's show and share it with somebody
01:00:45.360 | that you care about.
01:00:46.940 | I'm depending on you to be a co-laborer with me in helping me to propagate the message
01:00:54.140 | that I'm seeking to share.
01:00:56.580 | That helps the person that you are engaging with.
01:01:00.100 | And it also helps you because teaching others is one of the most effective ways for you
01:01:04.740 | to learn and for you to cement your learning.
01:01:09.260 | Three, if there's an idea that's been specifically helpful to you, and if you're gaining financial
01:01:14.580 | benefit from Radical Personal Finance, I'd be grateful if you'd consider paying me for
01:01:19.280 | this work voluntarily.
01:01:21.940 | Come by RadicalPersonalFinance.com/patron and you can sign up there to support the show
01:01:26.180 | at whatever level you feel is right for you.
01:01:29.420 | This is a voluntary support.
01:01:31.180 | That's my Patreon page.
01:01:32.820 | You can support me with a dollar a month, five dollars a month, ten dollars a month,
01:01:36.780 | any number that seems right to you.
01:01:38.500 | But if you're gaining financial benefit from this show, and if it's achieving financial
01:01:43.740 | results in your life, I'd be grateful for your financial support at RadicalPersonalFinance.com/patron.
01:01:49.900 | Thank you.
01:01:51.320 | different.