RPF0422-Andy_Sage

00:00:00.000 | Today in radical personal finance

00:00:01.420 | I have a very special interview to share with you

00:00:03.380 | if you had a chance to sit down for an hour with the former president and CEO of Lehman Brothers and talk to him about

00:00:08.860 | His career and his businesses and his money and his retirement. Would you take that opportunity?

00:00:15.800 | Well, I did exactly that and today I'm gonna share that interview with you

00:00:20.880 | [Music]

00:00:36.880 | Welcome to radical personal finance the show dedicated to providing you with the knowledge skills insight and encouragement

00:00:43.240 | You need to live a rich and meaningful life now while building a plan for financial freedom in ten years or less

00:00:48.920 | My name is Joshua sheets and I am your host and yes indeed

00:00:52.480 | I've wanted to bring you this interview for quite a while and today I'm very happy to share it with you

00:00:57.120 | Sat down with my friend Andy sage and got a little bit of his story towards wealth and financial independence

00:01:02.800 | [Music]

00:01:09.240 | Andy sage and I have been friends for a number of years and I've been meaning to get him on the show and wanted to

00:01:13.080 | Do it and just hadn't gotten it done and hadn't gotten it done and hadn't gotten it done

00:01:16.140 | And finally I was able to sit down with him

00:01:19.280 | actually just today we sat down just before lunch and I brought the microphones over to his house here on Palm Beach and

00:01:25.600 | Set them up on on a table and card table there and and sat down and recorded this interview that you're just about to hear

00:01:31.400 | With him. In fact, you'll even hear right at the end of the interview. You'll hear his wife calling us to lunch

00:01:35.800 | That's to come and eat. She was making us wrap up on time. I had a great interview. Andy sage is a remarkable man

00:01:42.740 | He's 90 years old and he built his career. He started in the bottom of the trenches right after World War two

00:01:49.060 | Well trenches meaning the I don't know if he was in the physical trenches or not

00:01:53.920 | But the metaphorical trenches on Wall Street worked his way up and eventually left Lehman after serving as the president and CEO

00:01:59.960 | You'll hear a little bit of that story today and since then has gone on to live just a really fascinating life

00:02:05.040 | he's the kind of guy that I love to spend time with because he's the kind of guy who really just

00:02:11.080 | Exudes a love of life and a vigor and a vitality looks and looks and acts like a man far younger than his years

00:02:17.360 | It's fantastic to see so today

00:02:19.200 | I'm gonna share that with you share his story with you and just sit back and listen

00:02:23.160 | Listen from those who have gone before and listen to what they've done and what they did

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00:05:13.340 | Comm slash Y and a B and he sage welcome to radical personal finance

00:05:18.320 | I'm glad to be here

00:05:20.200 | So I've been wanting to get you on the show for quite a while because you have such an interesting story

00:05:25.600 | And I thought it would really be a great opportunity for you to share that with my listeners

00:05:30.600 | Because you've you've worked the the halls of business and you've learned a lot of lessons along the way

00:05:37.080 | So I'd love for you just to kind of share the story. Where did you begin and how did you get involved in the business world?

00:05:43.120 | well, I

00:05:46.040 | It all begins

00:05:48.040 | Back when I went to school

00:05:50.160 | Got an early start in school, but the trouble is

00:05:54.920 | through carelessness primarily my parents sent me to three years of

00:05:59.160 | kindergarten

00:06:01.640 | By the time I got into school. I was already behind a couple of years

00:06:05.480 | And things didn't go so well even then and along the line we lost another year

00:06:12.280 | Finally I'm 18 years old and I'm in what I guess would be

00:06:23.800 | My

00:06:25.800 | I'm in my 10th grade. It's not very good

00:06:30.160 | The war came along

00:06:33.480 | And I turned 18

00:06:35.480 | This would have been a World War two in World War two and off I went that was that was in 19

00:06:41.120 | Early 44. So you were born in 19?

00:06:44.320 | 26 26 so

00:06:46.840 | I in this in the army or in the air air Corps, which

00:06:53.000 | then was part of the army I

00:06:55.000 | did get schooling in electronics radio radar and

00:07:00.600 | became a radar mechanic and

00:07:03.480 | Things went very well in that school as compared to the disastrous earlier stuff get out of the

00:07:11.280 | out of the army in

00:07:14.280 | 1946 and

00:07:17.160 | Got a job on Wall Street and

00:07:22.400 | As a clerk in a

00:07:25.120 | small specialized brokerage firm

00:07:28.840 | My work was purely mechanical

00:07:31.560 | for the

00:07:33.600 | It was there about a year and a half and that for the last half I was on the floor of the Stock Exchange

00:07:38.880 | and

00:07:41.680 | then I went to work for my father who was a broker a

00:07:44.840 | specialist on the floor of the Stock Exchange and I did that and

00:07:50.120 | in

00:07:51.880 | 1947

00:07:53.360 | the the volume in the Stock Exchange in those

00:07:56.800 | Cold hard years was about one to one and a half million shares a day

00:08:03.000 | What there is now in the first nanosecond

00:08:06.180 | It was boring and I wasn't needed and I learned a lot about playing pranks on other people working on the floor

00:08:13.720 | No such foolishness

00:08:15.440 | but

00:08:16.560 | Not no useful experience. I

00:08:19.440 | quit and

00:08:21.080 | Was thinking of going to California to work in the Redwoods

00:08:24.840 | Where my family had some?

00:08:28.680 | timber

00:08:31.040 | That had been in the family for a couple of generations and it might have needed some attention. I

00:08:37.320 | Knew a partner at Lehman's from having lunch occasionally and he invited me to come down there

00:08:45.960 | He asked me if I what I was doing. I told him nothing

00:08:49.280 | He asked me if I would come down and talk to him. I didn't want to go back to Wall Street

00:08:55.280 | It was boring. I didn't like it

00:08:57.280 | But I couldn't really say no after I told him that I had nothing to do. So down I went and

00:09:04.000 | He paid me $50 a week to go to work for Lehman Brothers

00:09:09.080 | Which began a

00:09:13.440 | 25 or more years

00:09:15.440 | Career

00:09:18.800 | during which time I did a little bit of everything and

00:09:21.520 | So it at the end was president CEO and

00:09:28.000 | And the first managing partner

00:09:33.080 | Which I did for two or three years and then I'd had enough of Wall Street

00:09:41.200 | left it moved to Wyoming got a ranch and

00:09:45.600 | Continued to do work for Lehman's

00:09:49.880 | Continued to do other financial work mostly fix-ups and I worked on

00:09:55.880 | Trying to repair broken-down companies

00:09:58.960 | for the rest of my business

00:10:01.760 | Generation I'd never really quit but

00:10:10.240 | Most of my work came directly or indirectly from banks

00:10:14.240 | who had loans that weren't getting repaid and

00:10:17.880 | gradually all the people that I knew

00:10:20.600 | In the banks and

00:10:24.000 | elsewhere retired and

00:10:26.120 | in the end early

00:10:28.960 | Phone stopped ringing the fix-up stopped coming in

00:10:32.360 | I didn't have an appetite for getting buying any any more of them myself

00:10:37.200 | and so

00:10:40.080 | Ended up in a sort of a retirement it tapered off

00:10:43.360 | I wasn't interested in being on the road five days a week almost every week of the year

00:10:48.160 | which I had been and so now I really am in a position of being a very passive investor and

00:10:56.360 | Passing my time of day doing other kinds of things

00:11:00.760 | So this term fix-ups is not a really a common term. What does that mean?

00:11:08.440 | Well

00:11:10.120 | it means that

00:11:12.120 | companies

00:11:14.120 | get into trouble and

00:11:16.120 | Pay a price

00:11:19.560 | Companies fall into a number of different categories

00:11:25.320 | But the most common one involves companies that have borrowed money and can't repay it

00:11:31.080 | When they can't repay long enough the banks get angry

00:11:37.560 | and

00:11:38.880 | upset and

00:11:40.400 | Seek a solution, but the solution isn't easy

00:11:44.240 | First there are bankruptcy laws that protect companies

00:11:48.680 | who are

00:11:51.360 | people money particularly banks and

00:11:53.640 | Protect them very successfully. So the bank has got a risk of never seeing their money

00:11:59.240 | and

00:12:01.960 | Usually the companies are being badly managed

00:12:05.400 | Not in every case, but in most cases the companies are being badly managed and the banks don't quite know what to do about it

00:12:12.960 | And that's where a fix-up is required and there are people

00:12:17.640 | Of which I was one

00:12:20.480 | That I did but by myself and in partnership with others where we go in and try to help them

00:12:26.520 | Square away their problems, which usually are not complicated and get on the right track

00:12:34.080 | And the the lenders either get their money or partial part of their money

00:12:39.320 | Sometimes they don't and that's that's what I call a fix-up

00:12:45.400 | It fix up is where somebody calls and says hey

00:12:47.680 | we own a big hunk of this company or the company owes us money or we're partners with them or whatever and

00:12:54.320 | They're being badly run

00:12:57.520 | We'd like you to go in and see what you can do to make it work and you go in and you're usually welcomed

00:13:04.400 | And you usually find out that

00:13:06.400 | There's lots of things that can be done and there are lots of people there that know how to do it

00:13:12.720 | They just don't happen to be the people who are running it at the time

00:13:16.800 | Sometimes even the people that are running it at a time are very good, but they're just not good at

00:13:23.560 | General management, they're good at their work. One of the things that you learn early on is

00:13:30.120 | In most of these is that the person who was at the helm of these companies?

00:13:35.800 | must go and they must be seen to go you must fire them and

00:13:42.440 | If you don't you'll have no credibility

00:13:45.720 | Whatever and I've had that come up a number of times and I learned that lesson the hard way in one case

00:13:53.280 | The case of a company that I'm still involved with

00:13:59.440 | The guy who ran it was really pretty good. He was a management consultant

00:14:03.080 | He'd gotten over his head in managing it as a business, but he had technical knowledge. It was very good. I

00:14:08.720 | kept him on and

00:14:11.880 | Not in the top position, but I kept him on

00:14:15.240 | useful in the company and

00:14:18.160 | we were just

00:14:20.440 | Couldn't get the lenders to be reasonable and finally one of them took me aside and said, you know

00:14:27.720 | Until somebody gets punished for what happened to us

00:14:31.160 | We're just not going to be very cooperative. We're not going to really believe

00:14:35.240 | so what you really have to do is

00:14:37.960 | You have to fire that person and you have to he has to be seen to have been fired for you to become credible

00:14:45.600 | We're so unfortunate guy wasn't much good. Anyway, and

00:14:50.000 | He had to go and and things opened up

00:14:53.560 | these are the things you find when you get in you also find that the the

00:14:59.200 | really tough ones are the giant companies and

00:15:02.600 | International Harvester is an example of

00:15:06.000 | One place that I went and this company was in incredible amounts of trouble

00:15:11.680 | For reasons that were really obvious. They continued to operate in businesses where they were unprofitable

00:15:20.160 | And with no real justification for doing so

00:15:23.400 | and

00:15:25.360 | There were lots of people there that knew well what ought to happen

00:15:28.600 | But it wasn't being run by the people that were doing the right things. So

00:15:33.640 | Often you get there and you find it

00:15:36.320 | The solutions are not very complex the problem with giant companies and International Harvester was a giant company

00:15:44.680 | is that they can operate inefficiently and

00:15:48.920 | extremely inefficiently and extremely

00:15:50.920 | Unprofitable for a long time before the wolf comes to the door and starts to eat them

00:15:57.760 | Their very size gives them

00:16:00.640 | Repute and cash

00:16:04.120 | Reserves that allow them to make mistakes for long periods of time

00:16:09.040 | I owned a little company at the same time. I went there

00:16:14.760 | In Pennsylvania making filters, it was a very small company

00:16:18.920 | we had sales of a couple of million dollars a year if that and

00:16:22.640 | We it was a bit of a struggle at first too

00:16:28.200 | But if in that company if we did anything very wrong in March

00:16:34.840 | By early May we would have been bankrupt

00:16:39.200 | You did we did we did just wouldn't have had the time with a small operation to operate in efficiently

00:16:45.760 | which you have in the giant companies is a

00:16:49.200 | Ship moving through the water that weighs a million tons and it goes on through the water

00:16:55.080 | And it's very heavy water for a long time before it sinks. It does sink in the end

00:17:00.920 | Harvester didn't most of the ones that I went survived

00:17:07.440 | To varying degrees of success

00:17:09.440 | But this is the business I got into and I got into it

00:17:13.120 | not only myself but with other partners who did the same kind of thing and

00:17:18.560 | It was a it was fun work

00:17:23.160 | to a point and

00:17:25.920 | It was for me very good work because it had an end

00:17:29.520 | I'm not a person who wanted to go to work and that's why I didn't want to stay at Lehman's

00:17:34.560 | After a while because it is that as that when I began to running the place

00:17:38.960 | It wasn't nearly as much fun as doing the things I was doing earlier, and I was being beaten on by

00:17:43.800 | God knows how many partners

00:17:46.760 | About one who didn't get as much of a bonus as the one the year before and why did this kind of stuff?

00:17:52.800 | was

00:17:54.680 | boring and

00:17:56.680 | Unsatisfying and very much tying you down to a nine-to-five type of life

00:18:04.200 | and

00:18:05.520 | That really wasn't for me. The fix-ups are good. You go in you do what you have to do and you get out

00:18:11.680 | You're greeted

00:18:13.600 | Happily when you arrive because everybody's in trouble

00:18:16.760 | You're detested by the time they're profitable and it's working

00:18:21.240 | They can't wait to see the last of you and out you go with a nice paycheck

00:18:26.560 | For your for your work. It's a good way to go

00:18:29.640 | At least you don't have any regrets and say go maybe I should stay around longer

00:18:32.960 | No, I never wanted to stay around

00:18:34.640 | I never wanted to stay around longer and they didn't want to be reminded of what they had been

00:18:38.800 | and

00:18:40.480 | my contribution

00:18:42.240 | In some cases was really fairly major in others. It was really very minor it

00:18:48.280 | in the case of one company

00:18:51.040 | I

00:18:52.720 | Didn't accomplish much except for persuading the board that they should not file chapter 11 with that company

00:19:01.320 | Because it would be disastrous and I don't know that I personally did much more

00:19:06.120 | That was my main contribution was keeping them from filing

00:19:09.960 | Until they were able to survive. I didn't have to do very much physical work in others

00:19:17.600 | I really had to get in and

00:19:19.600 | right on the right on the right in the line of work and

00:19:26.840 | Do jobs always I had to travel always I had to rent apartments or wherever it is because

00:19:32.760 | No companies that get in this kind of trouble obliged me by being next door where I could drive to them

00:19:39.160 | And that's so that that period had to end also

00:19:43.000 | How do they calculate compensation for somebody like this for doing a job like that? Is it based on a contract?

00:19:48.680 | Is it based on performance? How do you figure that out in various various ways?

00:19:55.280 | One typical way was

00:19:57.480 | that a

00:19:59.720 | Number of the businesses were businesses that came out of Lehman Brothers where I was I still stayed involved with Lehman Brothers

00:20:06.000 | Even though I stopped going to work every day

00:20:08.440 | And so a lot of the stuff came from Lehman Brothers and I was doing that while being paid to do it by by Lehman's

00:20:16.040 | In lots of them I became

00:20:20.120 | most of them really I

00:20:22.720 | Was on the board and involved in the companies themselves

00:20:26.520 | With or without Lehman's and in which case I was compensated by the

00:20:31.880 | By the company that I was working for

00:20:35.280 | Those were and the last case is that in some cases

00:20:43.320 | One in particular that still survives I

00:20:49.680 | Became an owner of the company that I went in to start fixing and my compensation ceased

00:20:56.800 | Because I didn't couldn't afford to pay myself out of a out of a failing company

00:21:02.680 | but the compensation came in in getting rid of the things that didn't work and

00:21:07.880 | Making something of the things that did work. And in the end the compensation in that was just a compensation of ownership

00:21:15.240 | All right. All right. So you had a little bit of probably some more things

00:21:19.200 | I haven't even thought of

00:21:20.560 | When you were at Lehman you began it sounds like you said you started earning $50 a week at a very low-level

00:21:25.640 | Position and when you left you were a CEO and president

00:21:28.800 | What types of work did you do over the course of your 25 years there and how did it progress

00:21:35.680 | Where you were able to go from entry-level to top management?

00:21:43.160 | Well, I went to entry-level I

00:21:45.440 | Went to entry-level

00:21:48.720 | It's true and I had been in the street for a year and a half on the on the stock exchange

00:21:54.880 | We should lend some sort of

00:21:57.440 | Credibility though in hindsight the credibility was worthless

00:22:01.880 | I

00:22:04.520 | Started by going from department to department as a trainee and

00:22:12.120 | Eventually I got into what we call the industrial department, which was a corporate finance department and it's

00:22:18.980 | Work there was to

00:22:21.440 | write memoranda and prepare work for the partners of the firm to go and deal with the companies

00:22:29.080 | RCA and other companies that were

00:22:31.560 | Clients and mind you the clients of an investment banking firm

00:22:38.440 | Use you when they want to raise money by selling stocks by selling bonds or or something in between

00:22:45.840 | so your

00:22:47.920 | Limits is a financing company and you doing financing work and I did

00:22:52.720 | Work in the trenches for about seven years

00:22:56.200 | writing memos for people to carry to their clients and

00:23:00.920 | then I

00:23:03.680 | Moved into a different section

00:23:07.000 | Which was called the syndicate the syndicate is the part of Lehman Brothers that?

00:23:11.080 | That forms a group of brokerage firms and in smaller investment banking firms and big ones

00:23:17.800 | around the country to sell

00:23:20.280 | stocks and bonds in wholesale amounts

00:23:24.440 | So you had to have contacts daily contacts with 80 or 90?

00:23:31.120 | firms that become part of your syndicate as you put them together to do an offering of

00:23:37.520 | Corporate securities and I ran that for a number of years and gradually got more into management

00:23:45.040 | And less into doing

00:23:48.360 | The actual work I had clients by then of my own and I was on some boards and

00:23:55.000 | I

00:23:58.360 | Ended up in management not because I wanted to be but because one day Lehman Brothers woke up and

00:24:04.640 | Found the back office found that it was unable to identify

00:24:10.400 | 400 million dollars of securities that they had on hand in their vaults and

00:24:16.320 | That they were unable to find

00:24:18.960 | $200,000,000 of securities that other people were claiming we had and we couldn't find

00:24:26.200 | And this mess ended up with an SEC

00:24:29.720 | intervention and censure and the firm was in real trouble our

00:24:36.600 | computers were a system and

00:24:40.440 | a product of a company who was our client

00:24:45.520 | It was chosen by Lehman Brothers only because it was a client not because it was a particularly good computers

00:24:53.040 | Which it didn't and it brought with it a workforce

00:24:56.360 | Which were equally ineffective?

00:24:58.920 | We have the problem we got into of not being able to find securities or having too many

00:25:06.080 | Stem from moving from a bookkeeping pen and ink business to a computer business. The computer business was an utter disaster

00:25:14.360 | somebody had to do something about it and

00:25:19.400 | Really all the people at Lehman's were financiers and know anything about this kind of thing and I grabbed them

00:25:26.480 | Grab the handle of this problem just because I had to I took a short course

00:25:33.480 | Given by Harvard Business School, I think

00:25:36.240 | But not in Massachusetts in New Jersey somewhere in computers and then got rid of the RCA's

00:25:44.040 | got IBM computers got rid of all the people that we had in that area got new people and

00:25:49.840 | And had I think a hundred people temporary people from an accounting firm just come in to

00:25:59.280 | physically do work in the basements of

00:26:02.200 | buildings in New York where these securities were resisting residing and

00:26:07.040 | in the end

00:26:10.160 | We straightened it all out and our differences were

00:26:14.000 | Insignificant and everybody lived happily ever after but by then I was involved in

00:26:20.720 | management rather than in investment banking and that

00:26:25.480 | That is why I ended up really in a management position

00:26:30.040 | other than an investment bankers position

00:26:33.600 | Which I later found I like better anyway when you look back

00:26:39.920 | What because from the sound of your kindergarten experience? You didn't have an auspicious start to your career

00:26:47.120 | You didn't really seem to excel in school

00:26:50.920 | at least at that that stage and you said with with another year sprinkled in between but yet you passed through the ranks of a

00:26:57.800 | large and very respected

00:26:59.800 | Wall Street company

00:27:01.600 | What were the character traits or personal habits that in hindsight you can look back and identify?

00:27:07.360 | That served you well during your career at Lehman Brothers

00:27:10.280 | Well

00:27:14.880 | There's a couple of things one is I

00:27:19.120 | Did take it seriously I did show up every day I did work I did what I had to do

00:27:26.240 | I was not a person who would go to work 16 hours

00:27:30.120 | a day or anything like that

00:27:32.880 | But I was conscientious and I think I have good judgment and I think on the whole I got on very well with the management

00:27:39.840 | I got on always very well with Bobby Lehman and

00:27:42.920 | I

00:27:45.920 | Was able to work well with people I think that was probably the main thing. I don't think I was

00:27:51.400 | The fact that I had no education and hadn't been to a business school was utterly meaningless

00:27:57.440 | We had a we in our industry then we and our competitors put a big big

00:28:04.780 | Powerful

00:28:08.240 | Exclamation point on how many people we got out of the good business schools and all that stuff

00:28:13.360 | Complete waste of time didn't make any difference whether we got the people out of like me out of nowhere or out of

00:28:20.020 | Colleges or out of high schools or anything else?

00:28:23.320 | We taught them what they needed to know about accounting and about finance

00:28:27.600 | And we had to teach them whether they came out of the business schools or whether they came out of eighth grade

00:28:32.560 | It really didn't make any difference

00:28:34.560 | so

00:28:37.520 | What I really did was I I attribute my success

00:28:42.180 | till largely to what I learned at Lehman Brothers and I learned so much that you don't learn in school and

00:28:50.080 | From people who really can teach but don't know their teachers. I can make two examples

00:28:55.600 | One is I had a boss named Morris Nadelson

00:29:00.600 | In the department, I worked for seven years grinding away on on memos and stuff and he

00:29:06.900 | Trained me in so many things one day

00:29:09.880 | I had a person come in with a deal and he wanted to find his fee for bringing it to us and he wanted

00:29:17.520 | 20% and

00:29:19.840 | I had

00:29:21.280 | told him pretty much that 20% was more than we ever paid to anybody and

00:29:25.480 | We were kind of at a standstill but he was going to come in for another meeting

00:29:30.640 | My boss said, you know, this is a no deal. Anyway, this not gonna happen

00:29:37.360 | It's worthless, but I think it's worth it to give you some training. So we're gonna meet with mr

00:29:44.340 | Kramer who was the man who came in you and I and all I want you to do is to fight for the firm's position

00:29:50.500 | Take the position that we never paid more than 10% never had paid more than 10%

00:29:55.340 | We don't want to set a precedent and the no matter what I say, I want you to take that position and hold it

00:30:02.260 | So mr. Kramer came in and mr. Nelson and I sat in the room and

00:30:07.460 | We got after ten minutes of pleasantries

00:30:10.980 | We get into the thing and finally we get to the finders fee and mr. Kramer says, you know, I've happened

00:30:16.260 | I know I've been difficult, but I have to have the 20% that I'm asking for because I'm doing more than anybody's ever done

00:30:23.780 | Blah-blah-blah-blah-blah and I do what I'm told I say, you know, we can't do that

00:30:29.180 | Here are the reason here are five reasons why we just really and not in a position to do it

00:30:34.040 | And they know me since my boss's Morris says well, wait a minute. Wait a minute Andy

00:30:40.140 | I think you jump I think you're jumping the gun a little bit. You haven't really listened to mr. Kramer out

00:30:44.780 | Didn't you say mr. Kramer that you did this and that and the other thing? Yeah, he said, you know

00:30:49.460 | I think you want to think twice and guess what over the next 15 or 20 minutes? Mr. Kramer's out of the conversation

00:30:55.700 | And mr. Nelson and mr. Sage are having a negotiation and he fights like a tiger for

00:31:01.660 | For mr. Nelson. I mean for mr. Kramer, but guess what at the end Morris?

00:31:08.260 | Nielsen says, you know, you're right. I guess we really can't do it and

00:31:12.900 | It was over the 10% was set and mr. Kramer went out the door didn't know what hit him

00:31:20.540 | And and again, my boss said to me, you know, we'll probably never see him again. It's a no-deal

00:31:27.820 | I can tell by talking to him. I didn't do this because I really cared about mr. Kramer Kramer's 20%

00:31:34.260 | I did it because I'm teaching you a

00:31:38.140 | Element of negotiation and how to use

00:31:40.580 | one two on one negotiations good cop bad copper call it what you want, right and I

00:31:47.100 | You learn from this stuff they don't teach you in schools don't teach you they teach you about labor contracts

00:31:54.060 | They don't teach you how to negotiate them Bobby Lehman one day when I was really very high in the firm

00:32:00.060 | Again, we were talking about that same department

00:32:03.100 | where

00:32:05.100 | the same department where they do the the

00:32:07.380 | statistical and grinding work of turning out finance documents and

00:32:12.460 | Bobby got Bobby Lehman got me and and said that I should

00:32:18.880 | Bear in mind that he saw he knew mr. Osborne was running the company and doing it running that division and doing very well

00:32:27.740 | but he said that

00:32:30.420 | he that what I had to be careful of was that

00:32:35.220 | he didn't promote only the people who would grind 20 hours a day and work three hundred and seventy days a year and

00:32:42.180 | kill themselves

00:32:44.900 | Grinding out the kind of memorandums that he wanted

00:32:47.840 | Because he said, you know

00:32:50.660 | Everybody you have in that department if he stays with us and he's 28 years old now

00:32:56.460 | He's going to be 38 years old 10 years from now and 48 years old 20 from eight years from now

00:33:02.020 | And he won't be writing those documents and those memorandums and grinding out

00:33:06.740 | multi-column spreadsheets

00:33:09.820 | he'll be talking to RCA and

00:33:12.460 | IBM and various people who you have or

00:33:15.820 | Hope to have as clients and you want to be careful that you don't bring up and promote only

00:33:24.300 | the grinders

00:33:26.380 | But that you look at each of these people you have in your department

00:33:30.140 | And if you see somebody who says that he may want to be working eight hours a day

00:33:34.380 | But he's doing it and he's conscientious

00:33:36.740 | but if he's not killing himself and he's not the

00:33:39.300 | greatest spreadsheet maker in the world and you're looking at somebody who's going to be

00:33:44.460 | The kind of person you want to send to your best client ten years from now

00:33:48.780 | You want to be sure he's still there and you haven't just promoted a lot of whole a whole lot of grinders

00:33:54.540 | Who won't be grinding ten years from now?

00:33:57.140 | and

00:33:59.140 | That's the kind of lessons that you get that you don't necessarily

00:34:03.340 | Think about yourself and I thought about it and it was kind of happening. He knew it

00:34:08.740 | Bobby Lehman, I learned so much from him and he didn't know stock from livestock. He knew nothing about the finance business

00:34:17.220 | he he knew about running a a

00:34:20.740 | Firm and and people and who to promote and who not to promote and who to get rid of and who to keep and how

00:34:27.260 | to make salesmen work

00:34:29.260 | He was not a technician at all himself and he didn't need it

00:34:32.860 | Do you think so what year did you leave Lehman what what calendar year did you leave Lehman Brothers?

00:34:40.860 | 1973 fast forward as we record. This is

00:34:45.440 | 2017

00:34:47.500 | Based upon your knowledge and contacts and exposure that you have to the business world as it continues to be today

00:34:53.420 | Do you believe that it's still possible for?

00:34:56.260 | People to have the type of career that you had

00:35:00.280 | back in the 50s 60s and 70s to go from the big, you know, the starting place like you did up through

00:35:08.060 | You know president and CEO

00:35:10.540 | Or as the world changed since then the business anything is possible, but it'd be harder. Why would you say?

00:35:16.780 | It's our first place. I

00:35:18.780 | Came I came out and I should have covered this really when you asked me

00:35:23.100 | Well how I got into the in the senior management, I came out of wartime. I came in to the firm in

00:35:30.340 | 1948

00:35:33.820 | But the war really hadn't ended till 46

00:35:36.960 | so

00:35:38.740 | my

00:35:40.300 | bosses the people I worked for

00:35:43.580 | Mostly male mostly had been in the service during the war

00:35:47.020 | They'd only gotten there to they'd get back a year a year a year and a half before I did

00:35:52.260 | So I grew up in a generation

00:35:54.660 | Of my parents age rather rather than myself

00:35:59.660 | my seniority in the firm came very quickly because the people I worked for

00:36:05.180 | Had only been there two years or three years longer than I had for them. Not Bobby Lehman, but but most of them so

00:36:12.940 | in the end

00:36:14.900 | By the time I was 27 or 28 been there eight years

00:36:19.620 | I was hiring people my age that were just coming out of business schools

00:36:24.780 | So I got boosted up really a whole generation

00:36:30.300 | because

00:36:32.140 | in

00:36:33.260 | 1946 the no males had been employed in any company you could get a job no matter who you were or what you were

00:36:39.260 | Doing it was not hard

00:36:40.500 | The it just hadn't everybody everybody had been in the service. I don't think

00:36:45.780 | That with my not even not even the high school even two years away from a high school diploma

00:36:52.980 | I could possibly have gotten hired into a into a company like that and

00:36:57.780 | Succeeded so I would have had to have been a a

00:37:02.340 | Steve Wozniak or

00:37:07.060 | Steve Jobs or something like that and be a

00:37:10.340 | Incredible genius and go go on my own and make it then really into the top

00:37:17.260 | It's possible, but honestly in my case

00:37:21.060 | It would have been tough going now. I'm not saying that

00:37:24.620 | that I couldn't have

00:37:27.580 | Gotten that I did get the first job

00:37:29.860 | I got because they were looking for people to at the first brokerage firm

00:37:34.060 | I went to it didn't matter and when I went to Lehman's I knew the

00:37:37.900 | Partner who invited me and no one ever asked me they didn't even ask me where I went to school

00:37:42.420 | It never even came up

00:37:44.260 | They knew I'd worked in the street and they hired me for the 50 bucks a week and put me in

00:37:48.420 | I

00:37:50.140 | think that I

00:37:51.820 | Think that that part would be really tough now

00:37:54.260 | If you go all you can show is that you're 18 and you're still in the two years away from being a high school senior

00:38:01.780 | It'd be very very very hard to get a job now

00:38:05.700 | You know, maybe in McDonald's but but real job be very very hard very hard to do

00:38:12.920 | I have a granddaughter who's been to school forever and she's a a

00:38:17.060 | computer generated artist and

00:38:20.660 | She's having she's got a job but she's not having an easy time of it

00:38:29.500 | she wants to be in the in the probably in the gaming industry or someplace where

00:38:34.380 | Computer graphics are really vital and and and the training is tremendous

00:38:39.780 | And she'll get something but not not not as easy as I got when I started so I think that I was really very lucky

00:38:47.980 | I wouldn't recommend to anybody that they just drop out of school for the hell of it and

00:38:53.380 | Hope for the best to end up in a really good job

00:38:57.900 | What asked one more question and luck is tremendous

00:39:00.180 | Right one asked one more question about your career and then transition to some of the life lessons you've learned

00:39:05.820 | with regard to lifestyle and personal finance

00:39:09.500 | Obviously as we sit here in

00:39:12.140 | 2017 we are a decade removed from the financial crisis in which Lehman Brothers played kind of a leading

00:39:19.820 | How do how do I how do I?

00:39:22.420 | leading

00:39:25.180 | Decade ago, and I'm just curious from your you were inside

00:39:29.620 | The Wall Street world and then you kind of went outside and involved in the business world and now you've watched

00:39:36.220 | Lehman a decade ago go bankrupt and then today, you know, we're a decade after that

00:39:41.460 | but of course, you're still in a student Vesta and pay attention I

00:39:44.620 | Wonder oftentimes how much trust to place into

00:39:52.020 | Companies, especially how much trust to placed in into financial companies because it seems very hard for me to discern

00:39:59.860 | From an external perspective what's actually going on versus, you know what the insiders know

00:40:06.740 | Do you what advice would you give to somebody like me? Who's looking to be?

00:40:12.100 | thoughtful and careful with regard to

00:40:15.860 | Financial institutions. I'm looking to be reasonable to be practical to be to deal with facts

00:40:22.220 | But also, you know, we have could have concerns. How do how do I even approach that?

00:40:27.140 | philosophically in today's world

00:40:29.660 | Well the best you can but you want to be very very careful

00:40:35.620 | the

00:40:37.980 | decade ago

00:40:39.700 | market crash

00:40:43.180 | Was no accident it came about from a combination of three things

00:40:50.900 | Stupidity

00:40:54.860 | Greed and incompetence and when you put those three things together

00:40:59.980 | You really have a disaster now if you own a shoe store and you do that. It's too bad and

00:41:08.180 | Despite the fact that you hire somebody like I used to be to be a fixer or whatever

00:41:12.460 | Yes, you store go down and it's not the end of the world. And even if it's an automobile company

00:41:18.200 | It's not the end of the world

00:41:20.200 | and

00:41:22.380 | If it's the government

00:41:24.500 | It gets close to the end of the world and if it's high finance

00:41:28.900 | it is the end of the world and

00:41:31.740 | You had

00:41:35.020 | those three ingredients there and

00:41:38.740 | Then and you would be very

00:41:42.580 | Ill-advised to assume that some wonderful thing has happened and none of those three characteristics are not there anymore

00:41:51.980 | it was just another way of saying be very very careful the

00:41:56.860 | Problem isn't with investment banks it

00:42:00.060 | there

00:42:02.020 | their service

00:42:03.540 | Their service oriented. The truth is a Lehman Brothers

00:42:07.460 | going down sounds terrible, but it really didn't make any difference a

00:42:12.860 | City bank going down would make

00:42:16.900 | The difference of life and death for all of us

00:42:19.660 | We have that because once something like that happens everybody runs on all the banks and we all know that the banks

00:42:27.220 | spend and use a huge multiple of the amount of the deposits they had and if

00:42:32.660 | Anybody lined up to get everybody lining up in one day to get their deposits out of any bank

00:42:37.660 | It couldn't be done. So you have a situation where you could have a

00:42:41.060 | Absolute total crash which could have well happened back in

00:42:45.620 | 2009 or whatever it was

00:42:48.380 | But the what was left of the Bush Bush administration in the Obama administration

00:42:55.100 | Bailed out the banks as they absolutely had to do

00:42:58.700 | And and a little bit more than the banks, but they had to be bailed out. They caused the failure of the country and

00:43:06.580 | Unsupervised they were not adequately supervised and the result was nearly utterly catastrophic

00:43:16.580 | if I

00:43:19.220 | Have to think about financial

00:43:21.220 | difficulties

00:43:22.980 | That might come across my path

00:43:25.100 | Failure of the financial system as a result of the banks is certainly high on the list

00:43:32.060 | Lehman Brothers never was a bank a number of other people who were not banks either such as

00:43:39.500 | Goldman Sachs and others

00:43:42.460 | Declared themselves banks. What you're saying is they were never commercial banks. They were never commercial, right?

00:43:48.740 | They were never commercial bank. They were invested. They didn't take they didn't take creditors. They didn't take people's deposits and write checks

00:43:55.020 | That's the function of a commercial bank. That's what that's what a bank is

00:43:58.420 | It holds depositors money, right?

00:44:00.060 | but not technically you can be a bank if you qualify and you have good enough lawyers and you can be a you can

00:44:05.820 | Declare yourself a bank overnight and be available for federal aid and whatever it is

00:44:10.460 | But these aren't the companies I worry about their service companies and they usually smarter

00:44:17.060 | The ones I worry about are the big giant commercial banks any one of which

00:44:22.660 | If it failed could cause a spiral that could run all our bloods cold in terms of any other investments

00:44:30.100 | We have it's really really very serious it

00:44:34.420 | Money is a confidence game. You have to have confidence

00:44:38.580 | values

00:44:40.380 | if I if I if I

00:44:42.540 | Buy a house for a hundred thousand dollars and it's now worth a million dollars. I feel I'm worth a million dollars

00:44:49.260 | But I'm not I only paid a hundred thousand dollars. That's the money that was paid

00:44:53.780 | The rest of it is confidence. The rest of it is confidence

00:44:57.820 | And that's that's that's a smaller multiple that we then we have to think about so we're living

00:45:04.500 | in confidence of our very existence in our financial existence

00:45:09.860 | And if anything breaks that confidence markets crash not only not only the stock market

00:45:15.900 | But the real estate market which everybody thought couldn't crash it crashed

00:45:20.100 | so all of a sudden you don't have what you think you have and you stop spending in the spiral is

00:45:25.860 | fatal and

00:45:28.580 | This is always a risk and I think the the biggest risk of all is the is the confidence

00:45:36.740 | How do you protect yourself against that I don't know how you protect yourself against that you

00:45:41.220 | Try not to do it not to do extremes and you certainly supervise

00:45:47.220 | Anything that's not important has to be supervised and you never let up on your supervised

00:45:52.820 | Supervising of big banks you see it over and over again. You see it here

00:45:58.300 | you see it now in Deutsche Bank you see it in Wells Fargo where a

00:46:06.460 | Commission system for getting new accounts gets carried to the point where in

00:46:12.260 | money is

00:46:15.340 | unbelievably large and you have thousands of employees and

00:46:18.380 | that couldn't even be kept because they were involved in the

00:46:23.140 | in basically fraudulent

00:46:25.980 | internal accounting not external not not not dangerous in itself to the financial world, but

00:46:35.380 | It's just shows the lack of control or the difficulty of controlling a business

00:46:41.860 | where you have senior executives by the

00:46:44.700 | hundreds of thousands spread all over the world in banks and and and in in branc branches and

00:46:50.740 | It would be unrealistic to think that you don't have to have confidence that that's being

00:46:58.380 | Guarded and that you have every

00:47:02.620 | Safeguard in there that you can think of so as you don't allow one of these great big banks to fail there have been

00:47:09.180 | There has been a movement

00:47:11.580 | Hasn't gone much of anywhere of putting some kind of a limit on the size of a bank and I

00:47:20.340 | Think that's that sort of thing really isn't what you want to do in a in a free market and enterprising country like the United

00:47:29.180 | States but it's something you want to be thinking about you want to be thinking about why people even want to do it and

00:47:35.460 | Put it in every safeguard you can to try and see that

00:47:39.780 | Something doesn't go to pieces that

00:47:42.420 | traders don't

00:47:45.260 | Take positions that you can't find

00:47:47.300 | it's just so many many things when you come to big amounts of money and where they can be stored and and

00:47:54.060 | Just do the best you can and

00:47:58.500 | But I think it's I think it's the biggest single risk to the to the economy into the stock market

00:48:04.700 | is the

00:48:06.980 | Is that is that the danger of a catastrophic mess in the banking system? All right

00:48:13.260 | It's only gotten worse in the last decade

00:48:15.860 | They're calling us. It has gotten worse in the last. Yeah, yeah by far

00:48:20.300 | We would think we could talk all afternoon. They're calling us for lunch. So I only got time for one question

00:48:26.400 | I may have to come back and do another interview just like specifically on on finance sometime

00:48:30.500 | But maybe I'll just kind of close with this you are

00:48:34.660 | 9091 now 91 91. No, I'm not 90. You're not almost 91. Okay, so you're 90 years old

00:48:41.180 | Do you think of yourself as retired at this point?

00:48:45.100 | well, I

00:48:48.220 | Retired from employment. Yes, I

00:48:55.540 | Can't think of anybody that's paying me any money to do anything

00:48:58.800 | though maybe

00:49:01.820 | But I'm I'm not retired and that I have to work

00:49:05.080 | See that on my own money is protected. I'm not very rich, but I'm not very poor and

00:49:11.180 | And that keeps me busy. I just got to clarify for my audience

00:49:16.020 | When Andy says I'm not very rich, but I'm not very poor

00:49:20.100 | We're uh, you know, you live in beautiful place here in Palm Beach, Florida

00:49:23.540 | In the standards of in the standards of global wealth. You've done. All right

00:49:27.960 | Absolutely, absolutely when we compare ourselves to but we got these hundreds millions and billions and things

00:49:35.600 | I'm not I'm not I don't come from an era where that happened. Really, right?

00:49:39.660 | when I was a

00:49:42.700 | Went to live over 50 buck $50 a week

00:49:46.100 | When I was made a partner

00:49:49.860 | And I think I might have been 32 or 34 some in my early 30s. I

00:49:57.260 | Think I

00:50:02.180 | Think I got

00:50:04.500 | 19,000

00:50:07.540 | Being a general partner on inflation adjusted one of about

00:50:12.180 | 30 or 25 or 30 general partners in a major thing. I was I

00:50:19.340 | Got I wasn't getting quite $20,000

00:50:22.260 | When I I don't really remember but I think when I was running the firm I

00:50:29.660 | Think I I got a million dollars

00:50:33.780 | The same person now begin

00:50:37.980 | 72 you know, I didn't I didn't grow up in an era, right?

00:50:44.340 | where the money the money was the kind of money it is now and

00:50:48.980 | If I had I'd have more than I have and I'm comfortable, but I'm not in the league of

00:50:54.780 | I'm not the league of people that that have or had

00:50:59.300 | Recently had jobs at the level of the one I had that right

00:51:03.700 | so when you look at and the reason I ask is I just simply have noticed this and

00:51:09.700 | My audience knows the question that's coming because it's a constant refrain

00:51:13.340 | I spent years working as a financial advisor and a major core aspect of that was this concept of retirement

00:51:20.980 | the idea of retirement being kind of the traditional work save money in your 401k until you're 65 so you can afford to quit your

00:51:28.660 | Job and go and live the life that you really love, but I came to notice two things. I came to notice that

00:51:33.540 | number one

00:51:35.700 | The vast majority of people who want to retire will never financially be able to accumulate the money to retire

00:51:42.020 | Simply because they don't save enough money and the returns are too low and it's mathematically impossible

00:51:46.720 | absent some crazy, you know speculative speculation and something and the second thing I noticed was that the people who are the most

00:51:54.900 | financially in the position to retire

00:51:57.540 | Very rarely ever chose to do that. They've always chosen to continue to be involved now

00:52:03.860 | They might change they might go from earning a salary to earning a stipend. They're sitting on a board

00:52:08.300 | They're you know working for a nonprofit. They're continuing to manage their own things

00:52:12.300 | But a lot of times the wealthiest people never really retire. They certainly change they pull back they move out of responsibility

00:52:18.580 | And so I've tried to point that out to recognize that the whole

00:52:22.860 | Financial industry the retail investment industry is built around a flawed concept built around this lifestyle

00:52:29.900 | That no one's really ever gonna do and here you are at 90 years old almost 91 years old and you're active and you're fit

00:52:36.700 | and you're here with dancing with your wife and

00:52:38.620 | My listeners can can tell the passion that's coming out of your voice for business and you're mentally alert

00:52:45.140 | You look strong. Yeah, like you look like a much younger man, and I would attribute that to your non retirement

00:52:50.540 | So I'm just interested as we close

00:52:52.060 | Do you have any opinion on the subject of retirement from your observation and experience in the world?

00:52:56.940 | Well, yeah

00:53:00.060 | I just agree with everything you I agree with everything you said

00:53:04.200 | I said it's a in my case. I was very sloppy about it. I really I

00:53:09.780 | Never really thought about it. I could have got a retirement from Lehman Brothers. I didn't even get it

00:53:16.420 | They didn't even set it up because I went out so gradually I was I was president then I became a vice chairman

00:53:24.220 | Then I became a consultant and just drifted off and I never even formally left the place

00:53:33.240 | You're still on their

00:53:35.240 | Health insurance and that that disappeared when they went broke so so I

00:53:41.880 | Personally personally I didn't have to and I didn't do much I get a retirement here and there I've served on a lot of boards

00:53:50.220 | big companies

00:53:53.180 | They don't have retirements

00:53:55.300 | So I never got really a retirement

00:53:59.100 | But I did get enough money to be able to manage my own sort of retirement

00:54:05.000 | But that that's just lucky

00:54:08.220 | most people that that isn't going to happen and the system is flawed and

00:54:13.940 | It's going to fall more and more

00:54:16.780 | On the people that what the the upside of that is that people make many people

00:54:26.100 | Don't nobody goes to work for $50 a week anymore. And and if people are reasonably successful

00:54:31.940 | They're be able to look after their parents to some extent the parents will have saved enough to get by

00:54:38.260 | But it's tough

00:54:40.820 | All right, she's saying we're done

00:54:43.140 | Andy thank you. I want to thank you for

00:54:46.940 | For doing the interview here. I think it's really been a service to my audience

00:54:51.380 | I'm just want to thank you for your friendship to me over the years and I

00:54:54.700 | We could talk all afternoon. I've enjoyed hearing the lessons that

00:54:58.500 | That you have to share any closing thoughts as far as final words of advice or encouragement to my listeners

00:55:04.420 | If

00:55:08.460 | Anything the we talked about safety we talked about retirement

00:55:13.720 | If

00:55:16.780 | It's very hard to find provide any real answers, but I find that I've drifted toward real estate

00:55:24.540 | it ain't perfect and

00:55:26.540 | 2009 showed

00:55:29.580 | bad things that can happen, but on the whole I

00:55:33.180 | tend to think that

00:55:35.980 | real estate investments are

00:55:38.220 | Some something between

00:55:42.660 | Safe and

00:55:46.180 | And and not safe I just think

00:55:52.580 | For me. I don't really dare go into the stock market at 90

00:55:57.580 | because one bad turn could do me and it won't have time to get back right and

00:56:02.820 | I have leaned I've just kind of fallen

00:56:06.060 | sort of the buying

00:56:08.620 | condos and renting them out or

00:56:10.620 | Commercial real estate and and getting a combination of return for my money and

00:56:19.660 | Hopefully appreciation on the land that that's kind of kind of the direction I've gone in

00:56:24.700 | For my own retirement that's kind of what it is. It takes a little work, but but I think it's worth doing

00:56:33.380 | Simplicity is to be valued when it comes to investing and real estate has the hallmarks of being relatively simple. Yeah

00:56:45.660 | Andy thank you for coming on

00:56:47.660 | We're done. We're done. Thank you Andy. I

00:56:50.140 | Hope you enjoyed and appreciated that interview with Andy just a couple of quick thoughts as I hit the music here as we go

00:56:58.100 | First of all, if you enjoyed that

00:57:00.740 | Recognize the fact that you don't only have to listen to podcasts

00:57:05.020 | That have interviews in them there's somebody in your town right near you who has similar experiences to Andy

00:57:15.140 | Have you gone and sought them out?

00:57:16.580 | Have you gone and sat down with them and asked them for their advice or dug into their career?

00:57:20.980 | Think you can learn a lot by doing that

00:57:24.460 | Don't leave it just to me and the podcast go sit down with somebody in your local community

00:57:30.780 | Andy's a neat guy. He's just always giving back. I hope you paid attention to his comments there on retirement there at the end

00:57:39.740 | I've known him for quite a while and I'll just affirm that

00:57:44.220 | You know, he doesn't sit around and do nothing. He's busy. He's active and his life

00:57:47.980 | Reflects that you can do the same thing if you enjoyed that con interview

00:57:53.020 | I know we got a little bit short there at the end

00:57:55.380 | But if you enjoyed that come by the show page for today's come by the blood radical personal finance comm comment on the show

00:58:01.220 | I can go back and do another interview if you enjoyed this

00:58:04.140 | Let me know what you'd like me to ask him about I'd plan to ask him more about personal finance his approach to investing etc

00:58:09.220 | And I'm sure he'd love to do another interview

00:58:11.220 | But if you enjoyed that come by radical personal finance comm and give me the questions that you'd like to ask or the things that

00:58:15.860 | You'd like to hear from Andy and who knows perhaps we can set up another one. We have a little bit more time

00:58:20.400 | For now though, that's all if you'd like to support the show

00:58:24.240 | Please consider becoming a patron directly to support me allows me to continue doing this kind of work for you

00:58:28.920 | With the regularity and the frequency you can do that radical personal finance comm slash patron become a patron of the show

00:58:34.340 | Totally voluntary, but if you find value from this and you'd like to pay me for it

00:58:38.180 | Come by radical personal finance comm slash patron and sign up to support the show can do it as cheaply as a buck a month

00:58:43.620 | Ten bucks a month twenty bucks a month, whatever you want radical personal finance comm slash patron and I'll be back with you, too

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RPF0422-Andy_Sage_Interview