RPF0107-Radical_Immediate

00:00:00.000 | Today on the show, we're going to talk about retirement.

00:00:02.960 | I warn you right now, if you're an uptight, obsessive, compulsive planner like I am, today's

00:00:08.320 | show is probably going to make you a little bit uncomfortable, which probably means it's

00:00:12.680 | a show you should listen to.

00:00:15.800 | We're talking today about radical immediate retirement.

00:00:20.080 | My guest was an attorney, middle of his career, kind of the height of his career, and then

00:00:24.080 | just decided he was done.

00:00:26.960 | Chucked it all and wandered off without a plan, going on walkabout.

00:00:47.200 | Welcome to the Radical Personal Finance Podcast.

00:00:49.160 | My name is Joshua Sheets.

00:00:50.160 | Thank you for being here.

00:00:52.340 | Today is Friday, November 21, 2014.

00:00:56.040 | Today I'm bringing you an interview with a man named David Downey.

00:00:59.080 | He's from Australia.

00:01:03.480 | He just decided to simply quit.

00:01:05.280 | Didn't worry too much about the planning or the details, but he just quit.

00:01:10.840 | Should be fun.

00:01:15.520 | My guest today sent me an email and he says, "I wrote this book called Radical Immediate

00:01:24.560 | Retirement.

00:01:25.560 | I like some of the stuff that you talk about.

00:01:27.600 | Check it out and enjoy it."

00:01:28.600 | So I take his book and I read it, read his book, and I did enjoy it.

00:01:33.240 | Basically, the title says it all.

00:01:35.480 | It just simply says, "What if we adjusted our mindset and didn't worry too much about

00:01:40.080 | all the technical stuff?

00:01:41.200 | We just adjusted our mindset.

00:01:43.880 | If in doing so, could we achieve something different?"

00:01:48.520 | I've got an interview with him today.

00:01:50.120 | He's a really interesting guy.

00:01:51.120 | He was an attorney, a high-ranking, high-class attorney living a high-spending lifestyle

00:01:57.840 | and just decided, "You know what?

00:01:59.680 | This isn't working," and decided to change and worked through the process of making some

00:02:04.080 | changes.

00:02:05.080 | Did it fairly quickly.

00:02:06.080 | I think the Radical Immediate Retirement is probably a little bit of an overstatement.

00:02:09.800 | It wasn't quite immediate, but it was pretty quick.

00:02:12.680 | He basically just bailed on his job and in favor of another approach.

00:02:20.720 | Since then, he's written children's books.

00:02:22.400 | He's contributed to the book, "1,001 Best Beers That You Have to Taste Before You Die."

00:02:28.520 | He kind of helps people with publishing projects and he travels.

00:02:32.000 | He does all these interesting projects.

00:02:33.840 | So give this show a listen.

00:02:35.520 | It was definitely an interesting interview.

00:02:37.440 | I think that I always need a little bit of that kind of loose and flexible approach in

00:02:43.840 | my life.

00:02:44.840 | It helps me to keep balance.

00:02:46.560 | Before we get to that, a couple of quick announcements.

00:02:50.400 | I hope you guys enjoyed yesterday's show.

00:02:52.200 | It was pretty hardcore and pretty in-depth.

00:02:53.920 | I'm skipping the Friday Q&A today just because yesterday's show was so long and I thought

00:02:58.040 | that this would be a fun way to go into the interview.

00:03:00.320 | But please keep sending me your questions and keep sending me those on the website with

00:03:05.240 | the "Leave Me a Voicemail" function that's right on the website and also on your phone

00:03:10.080 | via email.

00:03:13.040 | On note, however, if you want, you can just record a nice audio file for me on a phone.

00:03:17.360 | Keep it short.

00:03:18.360 | Keep it a minute or two long and send me the audio file that you have for me on the phone

00:03:21.660 | and I can use that as well.

00:03:22.800 | So that would be fine if you don't want to use the app on the website.

00:03:26.400 | That doesn't matter to me.

00:03:29.420 | Next week, I've got a great week of shows lined up.

00:03:32.400 | Quick reminder for those of you who are subscribed in iTunes, make sure to, if you're not receiving

00:03:38.000 | updates on the show, just simply unsubscribe, search for the show and then subscribe.

00:03:42.800 | And I'll fix that for you.

00:03:44.360 | Real quick, request for help from you.

00:03:46.440 | This is the major input that I wanted to say.

00:03:49.720 | I would love you guys' input on show topics and guests.

00:03:56.080 | I've gotten several great ideas from many of you.

00:03:59.040 | But I want you to know that every time you send me an email, which is joshua@radicalpersonalfinance.com,

00:04:04.600 | every time you send me an email, I make a note of that.

00:04:06.920 | And if you have an idea for a show topic or if you have an idea for a guest, what would

00:04:11.680 | be most helpful is if you think there's an interesting guest, have the guest respond

00:04:16.880 | to me with their story and just have them tell me that it was a listener and request

00:04:20.200 | the interview and then that can help me to set it up and save me from having to go and

00:04:23.720 | find them.

00:04:24.920 | But that would help the most.

00:04:27.100 | But I'm still willing if there's somebody that you think is great and you say, "Hey,

00:04:30.120 | check this person out.

00:04:31.120 | I'd love to interview them."

00:04:32.120 | And I'm very sensitive to the topics that you guys are suggesting.

00:04:36.600 | Real quick, how I think about the way that I approach the show.

00:04:40.600 | I just simply do shows about things that I'm interested in or that I think are helpful

00:04:44.600 | and are valuable.

00:04:45.600 | And I don't really know what other model I would apply to it at least at this time.

00:04:51.760 | So when I do a show, it's a topic that I'm interested in.

00:04:54.160 | It's often a book I've read or something I'm interested in talking about.

00:04:57.760 | But what I'm learning is now that the audience is growing, I'm learning that there are subjects

00:05:01.860 | that are of interest to you, the audience.

00:05:05.160 | And there are things I hadn't thought about.

00:05:06.360 | I'll give you some examples.

00:05:07.360 | I had never thought about necessarily doing shows on international topics, shows on finance

00:05:12.520 | from a Canadian perspective or from a German perspective.

00:05:15.360 | But I've had several listeners email me and say, "Hey, could you bring somebody on?"

00:05:19.760 | So this week I've been working on a reach out to several Canadian personal finance people

00:05:24.660 | that are active in that community and they were based upon your suggestions.

00:05:29.520 | And I think a couple of them are going to be coming on the show.

00:05:31.560 | I'm happy to do that about anything.

00:05:33.100 | Another one that listeners have asked about is to have more women on the show.

00:05:36.960 | Frankly, I never even thought about, I don't think about gender, what gender somebody is.

00:05:42.120 | It doesn't even cross my mind.

00:05:43.720 | I just think, am I interested in this person's topic?

00:05:47.280 | But I got some comments and people saying, "Hey, could you have some women on the show?"

00:05:50.200 | I would love to.

00:05:51.200 | So if you have something that you think would be a benefit for the show, if you're a listener,

00:05:56.440 | I love to bring listeners on because I despise the idea that we're just going to get experts

00:06:03.000 | and I'm going to go and bring in all these experts.

00:06:05.700 | Experts are great, but you know what?

00:06:07.040 | Sometimes they're really unrelatable.

00:06:10.440 | So I'd be happy to talk with listeners.

00:06:12.440 | I like talking with listeners.

00:06:13.800 | I think that's really useful content.

00:06:15.840 | It keeps the more humble approach to the show that I think is important.

00:06:21.000 | I love talking to experts as well.

00:06:22.840 | But if you would like to come on the show, feel free to send me an email.

00:06:26.320 | Just share with me a little bit about what you think would be of interest to the show.

00:06:28.920 | I take a lot of those emails and many people that I've had on have been because they've

00:06:33.080 | reached out to me.

00:06:34.080 | I'm happy to do that.

00:06:35.240 | And then if you have somebody that you know has an interesting story, if you see a hole

00:06:40.120 | in some of the content that I've been bringing, if you see that I don't have enough Canadians

00:06:44.440 | on or I don't have enough women on or something like that, just let me know and suggest somebody

00:06:48.980 | for me.

00:06:49.980 | It's the first time I've ever done this as far as designing programming and trying to

00:06:54.440 | figure out how do I set this up.

00:06:57.520 | So I'm winging it and I'm figuring it out as I go.

00:07:00.360 | I don't sit down.

00:07:01.760 | My brain doesn't work at saying, "Let me sit down and create a balanced approach to

00:07:05.380 | all these things."

00:07:06.380 | I do that, I guess, with the financial content.

00:07:07.680 | I jump around to these different areas, estate, insurance, investments.

00:07:11.360 | I try to keep that varied.

00:07:13.360 | But with regard to maybe things like what country are you from or, "Josh, will you

00:07:18.920 | just have all these men on the show?"

00:07:20.360 | I don't even think about that stuff.

00:07:21.800 | So if there's somebody that you would like to have on the show, let me know and I would

00:07:25.560 | be glad to do that.

00:07:26.560 | Because I do want to be sensitive to what you as the audience request.

00:07:30.960 | I read all the emails.

00:07:31.960 | I have a notebook with all of the topics that you have suggested.

00:07:35.960 | Some of them I'm able to do just right off the top of my head.

00:07:38.320 | Some of them require a lot of research and they're on there on my research list.

00:07:42.200 | Some of them I just think, "Well, I'll figure out how to do this when I can figure

00:07:45.800 | it out."

00:07:46.800 | So I just wanted you to know if you would like to see some sort of content covered on

00:07:50.880 | the show, you can help.

00:07:52.800 | I will ask for your help and I'm listening to you, the audience, as it grows.

00:07:57.240 | So I hope you take me up on that.

00:08:00.040 | I appreciate the help.

00:08:01.240 | I really do.

00:08:02.240 | So here's the interview with David, a really great guy.

00:08:06.320 | Enjoy.

00:08:08.360 | So David, welcome to the Radical Personal Finance Podcast.

00:08:11.600 | I appreciate you being with me.

00:08:12.800 | It's a pleasure to be here.

00:08:14.600 | I am excited to talk to you because I think the concepts that we are going to talk about,

00:08:20.320 | the concepts of your book, are going to provide a really radical departure from how financial

00:08:27.480 | advice is usually given.

00:08:29.240 | But I think it's going to really enhance people's perspectives.

00:08:34.280 | So let's start with your story.

00:08:37.520 | Share with me a little bit about your story and your own personal retirement plan.

00:08:41.920 | Okay.

00:08:42.920 | Well, I think the main observation on my story is that I didn't really have a retirement

00:08:47.480 | plan, which I think is pretty well the same as most other people out there in the workforce.

00:08:52.440 | I was a young, keen student.

00:08:56.160 | I guess I followed the same system that a lot of Western young achievers do.

00:09:02.080 | I was in a framework that someone else invented.

00:09:04.400 | I was told which ladder to climb.

00:09:05.720 | I did really well at school, went to university here in Australia, focused on getting the

00:09:10.880 | marks, was at university for a long time, got a great job in a big law firm and worked

00:09:16.680 | in the law firm for over 10 years, probably 15 years, became partner at a law firm, was

00:09:22.720 | finally on the money.

00:09:24.680 | And then I thought, you know what, I don't want to be spending my time this way.

00:09:28.600 | I want to radically and immediately stop this, really with no retirement plan.

00:09:34.640 | I stopped it.

00:09:36.080 | This is probably about a year and a half ago.

00:09:38.100 | And I've gone through a period of enormous transformation, I guess, during that time

00:09:42.160 | of sort of seeing the light financially.

00:09:45.000 | I've seen what's important and I've developed this sort of collection of concepts which

00:09:49.800 | has really helped me mentally, financially, in terms of enjoying my life, which is the

00:09:55.640 | goal.

00:09:56.640 | And I've just scratched them down in this little collection and I hope it's motivating

00:10:00.040 | for people and I guess demonstrates that there can be another way and inspires people in

00:10:06.360 | the way I've been inspired by the sort of writers out there who have shared their story.

00:10:11.400 | It's interesting just simply because it seems like we all need a system and we usually just

00:10:19.000 | kind of take on the system that our society gives to us and then some people at some point

00:10:25.440 | stop and say, "Wait a minute, am I really in favor of this system or not?

00:10:30.240 | Or am I really going to continue following it or not?"

00:10:34.380 | And you have a quote in your book.

00:10:37.920 | Go ahead.

00:10:41.400 | Sorry, you just cut out there.

00:10:45.600 | Okay.

00:10:46.600 | You're back now.

00:10:47.600 | Yeah, we're back now.

00:10:48.600 | So, saying like we need a system to follow.

00:10:50.920 | You have a quote in your book, two of them really stood out to me and they're in your

00:10:55.840 | chapter on freedom.

00:10:57.720 | And the first quote was by Voltaire and the quote is, "Man is free at the moment he wishes

00:11:03.380 | to be."

00:11:04.800 | And then the second quote was by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe and he said, "None are more hopelessly

00:11:11.040 | enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

00:11:16.080 | And to me that kind of sums up the paradox of the Western culture better than anything

00:11:21.080 | else that you read is that we all believe we're free but in reality the question is,

00:11:26.240 | are we?

00:11:27.240 | Well, that's right.

00:11:28.240 | I think we're free really to buy people's products and pay taxes.

00:11:32.400 | That seems to be what the system's geared towards.

00:11:35.820 | And if you want to spend your time differently, you have to behave differently and I guess

00:11:41.240 | turn off your mind to those messages and start thinking for yourself or following other messages

00:11:47.320 | which result in you leading a better life.

00:11:50.960 | What were the series of events and what were the influences that led to your deciding to

00:11:56.800 | make such a radical change in your lifestyle?

00:11:59.240 | Well, I guess I was increasingly unhappy with spending my time in an office and I think

00:12:06.600 | a lot of people have observed that humans are happiest, at least a lot of us are happiest,

00:12:11.760 | when we're acquiring new skills and doing what we enjoy and exercising control over

00:12:16.240 | how we spend our time.

00:12:18.240 | And I was in a highly specialized area that took a long time to become competent in.

00:12:22.840 | I was a partner in intellectual property and commercial contracts in a large law firm.

00:12:28.560 | But to be honest, I became good at that some time ago.

00:12:31.400 | And so I was spending day after day, month after month, year after year effectively solving

00:12:36.720 | the same problems.

00:12:37.720 | And by then I was an autopilot and I was just, I guess, going a bit crazy doing the same

00:12:43.600 | job over and over.

00:12:44.600 | I'm sure dentists and accountants and financial planners suffer the same fate.

00:12:48.400 | Absolutely.

00:12:49.400 | Situations.

00:12:50.400 | And I mean, a lot of us in law firms and in many occupations are quite creative, interested

00:12:56.560 | people, and this drudgery just sucks the life out of you over time.

00:13:02.200 | So I knew I wasn't happy doing that.

00:13:03.880 | But when you're in that system, and I think like a lot of people, I suffered from a bit

00:13:09.180 | of lifestyle creep.

00:13:11.160 | You start off as a student and a lot of us are happiest when we're a student, but then

00:13:14.240 | we forget that we're happiest when we're a student and we're not sure why.

00:13:17.920 | But we acquire cars and houses or other investments or drinking fancy beers or wines or going

00:13:24.920 | out to expensive restaurants and all of a sudden the income that you're on, which seemed

00:13:30.080 | like a luxury when you first obtained it, is now a necessity.

00:13:34.240 | And a lot of my coworkers, even those who have been on a lot of money for a long time,

00:13:38.920 | are still in debt.

00:13:40.440 | And so it seems impossible to live any sort of other life.

00:13:44.040 | And you pity people who aren't earning as much cash.

00:13:47.400 | But I knew something was missing and I wanted out.

00:13:50.040 | In terms of the influences on me, Jacob, who I know you've interviewed from earlier time

00:13:55.400 | and extreme, I found him as a lot do and I think probably as a lot do.

00:14:00.040 | I was angry and outraged by his assertions and I saw him as advocating homelessness and

00:14:07.880 | I saw him as a perpetual student.

00:14:11.920 | And I'd worked so hard for so long to not be a student.

00:14:16.080 | And I actually was so angry.

00:14:18.800 | I think I left him a two star review on Amazon and an angry rant that all his followers jumped

00:14:28.880 | in and attacked me about and I attacked them.

00:14:31.160 | And then he came in and I attacked him not knowing it was him.

00:14:33.200 | Then I apologized knowing it was him and said, look, you're even back at work.

00:14:37.800 | You know, I've got a good job.

00:14:38.800 | You've got a good job.

00:14:39.800 | What's the point?

00:14:40.800 | You can just say be a student forever.

00:14:41.800 | So that happened.

00:14:42.800 | But then I just kept returning to the book, his book, Early Retirement Extreme.

00:14:47.040 | I recommend it.

00:14:48.040 | I recommend his blog.

00:14:49.040 | He's an extremely influential character.

00:14:51.160 | I kept returning to it and some of his concepts just really sort of spoke to me about how

00:14:56.720 | about the choices that you have and how do you want to spend your time.

00:15:01.160 | And you've spoken at length about what he said, but he was an influence.

00:15:04.400 | A second character who was a major influence, although I'm different to each of these people,

00:15:08.600 | obviously I've taken my own path and that's written about in the book, was Tim Ferriss.

00:15:13.800 | He's a well-known name amongst our community with his four-hour work week.

00:15:19.080 | You know, I think the guy just had insight that was incredible for such a young man.

00:15:23.400 | He must have only 25 or 26 when he wrote the book and it's brilliantly written.

00:15:27.920 | At the time, it was completely radical and he, I think, Ferriss at the end of the day,

00:15:34.640 | he can see trends slightly ahead of the curve.

00:15:37.520 | He can translate it into language that people understand and he's a fabulous motivator.

00:15:42.480 | And I found his book motivating.

00:15:44.560 | I think my philosophy now is a bit different to his and I guess with Jacob's influence

00:15:50.400 | and my own thinking, Ferriss speaks about, it's a great line and it's an observation

00:15:57.280 | that you don't want to be a millionaire, you want to live like a millionaire.

00:16:01.320 | And so where if you can use your brain to solve, I guess, your problems and if problems

00:16:07.800 | or outcomes you want to say be skiing and living, not going to work every day, you don't

00:16:13.040 | necessarily have to use millions of dollars to solve that problem.

00:16:16.200 | You can solve that problem using geo-arbitrage, living in different countries, taking advantage

00:16:20.280 | of exchange rates.

00:16:21.280 | You can solve that problem by having cash flow rather than wealth.

00:16:24.440 | And you can solve the problem by observing that if we are interested in active people,

00:16:28.960 | then we're not really going to retire and sit around, are we?

00:16:31.440 | We're always going to be doing something.

00:16:32.920 | And if you don't need to plan for retirement so much, knowing that you're going to be active

00:16:36.040 | and interested, then you don't need the cash.

00:16:38.800 | And that's a pretty powerful observation.

00:16:40.920 | Although in my case, I think, and this is where Jacob comes into it, it's not you don't

00:16:48.640 | want to be a millionaire, you want to live like a millionaire.

00:16:50.440 | I don't want to live like a millionaire with all the fancy stuff.

00:16:53.120 | I think Ferriss is a bit of an extrovert rock star.

00:16:55.800 | He says in his book, I live like a rock star.

00:16:57.920 | I don't want to live like a rock star.

00:16:59.680 | And I don't think you have to live like a rock star.

00:17:02.120 | I want to live efficiently.

00:17:04.840 | And that's something I think is worth talking about as well.

00:17:08.720 | I know there's a word going around in all of the old days, people used to talk about

00:17:12.440 | voluntary simplicity.

00:17:13.440 | And there's great books out there that talk about voluntarily living in a simple fashion

00:17:19.520 | and being quite frugal.

00:17:22.240 | And I guess if you've read a lot of that stuff, frugality sounds fine.

00:17:24.920 | But to most people, if you talk about frugality, it sounds like something your grandma's grandpa

00:17:29.360 | would get up to.

00:17:30.360 | And it sounds pretty horrible.

00:17:32.160 | But one concept I got from Jacob, which I've really run with in my own mind, is that of

00:17:37.120 | being efficient rather than frugal.

00:17:40.160 | And I think it's a much better word to use.

00:17:42.280 | And mentally, who wouldn't want to be efficient?

00:17:44.760 | And I think of someone walking past a beer tap running out onto the ground.

00:17:51.320 | I mean, it's not an outcome anyone would want.

00:17:53.280 | And I think all of us would run over with the greatest urgency and turn that beer tap

00:17:57.400 | off.

00:17:58.400 | Right.

00:17:59.800 | And I think a lot of people's lives are like that running beer tap, just wasting money.

00:18:06.440 | They're driving a car that uses 10 times the petrol of a normal car.

00:18:10.360 | And it's crazy.

00:18:11.680 | And when you look at it that way, in terms of waste and inefficiency, and you'd much

00:18:15.800 | prefer to be a well-oiled machine, you'd much prefer to be the beer tap that just turns

00:18:19.000 | on when someone wants a beer, then that empowers you, I think, to live a different lifestyle

00:18:25.760 | and one that doesn't involve waste.

00:18:28.400 | And that's an extremely powerful concept, because the less wasteful you are, the more

00:18:32.760 | efficient you are, then the less of this stuff we call money you need to live your life.

00:18:38.920 | And if the goal is to live the life of being free, doing what you want to do, then one

00:18:44.720 | way to get there is not to have millions and live like a rock star, but to live efficiently

00:18:49.840 | and just have as much cash as you need to live the way you want to live.

00:18:54.680 | Yeah.

00:18:55.680 | I think your story about being angry at Jacob is a valuable story, because I think many

00:19:00.400 | people have the same perspective, especially when they read him.

00:19:04.200 | I mean, he's rather extreme in the way that we say it, in comparison to our modern culture.

00:19:11.400 | But when you get down to it, you find that the concepts that he shares really just make

00:19:17.640 | sense.

00:19:18.640 | And you say, "Wait, why do I do that?"

00:19:21.280 | And I think we get a little frustrated, because, at least for me, when I read his book, I felt

00:19:27.080 | like I had been bamboozled prior to that.

00:19:29.800 | I felt like I had been following somebody else's plan of, instead of thinking rationally

00:19:35.600 | and making my own plan, I felt like I had just wasted time following somebody else's

00:19:41.360 | plan.

00:19:42.360 | And frankly, I think I did.

00:19:44.880 | But yet, it's unusual that it would be a remarkable demonstration of character to be able to recognize

00:19:53.280 | that you've wasted days, months, weeks, years of your life, tens, hundreds, thousands, hundreds

00:19:59.560 | of thousands, perhaps millions of dollars on something that ultimately wasn't serving

00:20:04.960 | you well.

00:20:05.960 | That's a very difficult emotional transition to make.

00:20:08.880 | Well, I must admit, it took me years to get the courage to walk away from the system,

00:20:16.280 | because I was a very good player in the system.

00:20:18.080 | And it turns out that, for me, I was climbing the wrong ladder or participating in the wrong

00:20:24.040 | game.

00:20:25.040 | And going back to Ferris's insight, I think a lot of his insight and his book outraged

00:20:30.720 | a lot of people at the time as well, I think, at least the older people, came from the fact

00:20:35.080 | that he had lived in Japan.

00:20:37.240 | And he lived in other countries.

00:20:38.480 | And there's no better way to obtain perspective.

00:20:43.200 | And Jacob, no doubt, has done this as well, about your own culture than living in others.

00:20:47.400 | And Ferris says reality is negotiable.

00:20:51.040 | And he sees life as a series of culturally reinforced rules that aren't really based

00:20:59.400 | on object reality.

00:21:02.800 | And yeah, I think a lot of our education-- Jacob talks about this a little bit as well.

00:21:08.440 | And others have spoken about it.

00:21:09.880 | Our education system, it's geared towards the Industrial Revolution, churning out people

00:21:14.440 | for a factory line.

00:21:15.760 | And then as we become more sophisticated, more sophisticated specializations.

00:21:20.840 | And yeah, as children, what do we do?

00:21:23.280 | We do what our parents tell us to do.

00:21:25.720 | We do what our teachers tell us to do.

00:21:27.120 | If I had my time over, and I don't have children-- and we probably should chat about that briefly,

00:21:31.520 | I think, kids, because I can change the equation a little bit.

00:21:34.040 | I'd like-- I mean, imagine if we taught all our kids from age 12 how to be independent

00:21:38.520 | and entrepreneurial.

00:21:39.520 | What would happen if you did that across the whole culture?

00:21:43.400 | And I think particularly for isolated economies, a good internet connection and a revolution

00:21:49.760 | in schools, where everyone had to come up with three businesses every semester from

00:21:55.760 | age 12, wouldn't it just change the whole country?

00:21:59.360 | It would.

00:22:00.360 | It wouldn't.

00:22:01.360 | It won't happen with the permission of the forces that be.

00:22:06.640 | Right before we're recording this, I've released two series on the history of schooling.

00:22:12.160 | And it wasn't until I actually started studying the actual history of schooling and some of

00:22:17.800 | the academic documents on it.

00:22:20.760 | Because you can look.

00:22:22.880 | And the two things that always look to me as I said, look, you've got a system that's

00:22:26.680 | designed to create good, obedient little factory workers.

00:22:29.800 | It's an industrial revolution system.

00:22:31.480 | That's fairly apparent if you just simply look and say, well, the desks all point to

00:22:34.880 | the front of the room.

00:22:35.960 | The teacher stands in the front of the room.

00:22:37.960 | And there's a bell that goes off to tell people to move to another room.

00:22:40.560 | And then you go to some historical place.

00:22:43.000 | And you see the picture of the black and white photo of the factory workers.

00:22:47.000 | And the desks are all pointed the same way.

00:22:49.140 | And they're working on an assembly line.

00:22:50.680 | And there's a foreman or a forewoman or something there with the whip.

00:22:55.480 | Probably not a physical whip, but basically in charge.

00:22:58.080 | And there's a factory bell in a factory town.

00:22:59.800 | You say, oh, interesting.

00:23:00.800 | I can draw that comparison.

00:23:02.880 | But it's not until you actually go and you start studying some of the academic history

00:23:06.840 | and you get into some of the philosophy and you recognize that throughout time, and this

00:23:10.920 | is where it's so wacky, throughout time people have tried to figure out, great thinkers have

00:23:14.980 | tried to figure out, how do we control a population?

00:23:17.960 | How do we keep the population from actually, how do we control them together?

00:23:25.400 | And then you go and you see, ah, school was designed as a system of control, a system

00:23:31.280 | especially with the heavy Prussian influence.

00:23:33.800 | And you find out that the major factor here was controlling people and eliminating individual

00:23:38.720 | thought.

00:23:39.860 | And so in our modern system, and it's very easy for people to block this out because

00:23:47.800 | it's really a dramatic, it takes time.

00:23:53.040 | It took me a long time to come to terms with it.

00:23:55.240 | Just like you said, it took you time to come to terms with it.

00:23:58.480 | It's easy to cut this information out and say, oh, that can't be true.

00:24:03.240 | But if you think about it, that we as the individuals who are the workers are indeed

00:24:09.080 | the, in a sense, we're what creates the money that funds the machine that keeps everything

00:24:15.520 | going.

00:24:16.880 | When I had the war tax protester on the show, I forget his name right now, but he wrote

00:24:21.360 | the book on tax protesting.

00:24:24.000 | Without your and my going to work and earning income, which is then taxed, then our respective

00:24:30.400 | governments cannot fund their activities.

00:24:33.360 | And if they do not go and keep a constant war going, then that cannot fund the owners

00:24:39.740 | of the companies that create the war machines that are used to fight the war.

00:24:44.440 | So whether it's designed that way or it just happens that way, that's the practical result.

00:24:50.640 | Doesn't really matter the cause.

00:24:51.640 | I mean, maybe it matters a little bit, but it doesn't really matter the cause because

00:24:54.440 | you can look at it and say, oh, that's the system I'm involved in.

00:24:57.400 | And if everybody, it's easy to go back, Thoreau is always the example.

00:25:01.160 | And Thoreau, I think, is rightly lauded in some ways and wrongfully lauded in other ways

00:25:06.800 | because he makes excellent points, but then he's also, there's some major problems in

00:25:12.440 | his work, in my opinion.

00:25:13.880 | But if you go back to it, if we went back to a self-sufficient lifestyle, we went back

00:25:17.960 | to less of a division of labor where each person is working in this very specialized

00:25:22.480 | business, then the economy would fundamentally transform and it would not be nearly as efficient

00:25:27.400 | as creating, at creating tax revenue.

00:25:30.640 | So when you look at the effects of it and you say, ah, here's just simply how the system

00:25:34.680 | works, wait a second, I really am in many ways a battery pack that's providing energy

00:25:42.660 | that keeps everything just flowing forward.

00:25:45.120 | And as long as I'm comfortable enough, as long as there's not too much dissatisfaction,

00:25:49.480 | too much discomfort, then I as a human being, it's pretty comfortable, change is uncomfortable,

00:25:54.920 | so I'll just continue doing it and it's good enough.

00:25:57.080 | Yeah, that's true.

00:25:58.440 | And I think there are parallels with other sectors of the economy as well, including

00:26:03.160 | food, food and diet.

00:26:04.400 | I mean, you just follow the money and the money is what ultimately influences the system

00:26:10.280 | and the culture.

00:26:11.280 | And we've got a fight here in Australia at the moment between our head sort of dietitians

00:26:17.080 | association who of course are staunchly defending the ancient food pyramid, which many countries

00:26:22.920 | are looking at shifting.

00:26:25.520 | And who are they sponsored by?

00:26:26.520 | They're sponsored by the big multinationals who peddle the stuff that doesn't make you

00:26:31.120 | so healthy.

00:26:32.120 | Right.

00:26:33.120 | And so it's sort of following the money.

00:26:34.960 | And I think the system's so big now that I mean, there's not one mastermind behind it.

00:26:38.640 | It's just sort of companies acting rationally in the system in which that exists.

00:26:43.840 | But I mean, I'm not trying to change society.

00:26:46.120 | I'm just trying to make my life better.

00:26:48.240 | Exactly.

00:26:49.240 | Which is, you know, I talk about freedom in the book.

00:26:52.160 | It's a concept Americans have championed for centuries.

00:26:54.520 | But for me personally, you know, freedom is just having the ability to choose how I spend

00:26:59.000 | my time.

00:27:00.000 | Right.

00:27:01.000 | And and I think, you know, both Ferris and Jacob on your show spoke about the sort of

00:27:06.240 | myth of just following your passion for 40 years.

00:27:10.360 | And the example there, I think, is of someone who loves preparing a nice meal.

00:27:14.720 | I love preparing a nice meal for a few people.

00:27:17.240 | And there's a big difference between that and going into a massive kitchen, preparing

00:27:22.120 | 400 nice meals for 40 years.

00:27:25.560 | Massively.

00:27:26.560 | And so that's why I talk about, I guess, going to the book that sort of slightly outrageous

00:27:30.880 | assertion that anyone can retire immediately and radically.

00:27:34.680 | And I guess that's to challenge in the way Jacob and Tim have challenged.

00:27:40.680 | But for me, it's about assessing your situation.

00:27:43.800 | And I was sort of approaching middle age.

00:27:45.880 | I had some assets, but not an enormous amount of assets.

00:27:48.000 | I had a great big brain, which a lot of us have.

00:27:51.240 | And surely it could do more than just this.

00:27:53.400 | And I think it's just about stopping work, taking a really hard, good look at yourself,

00:27:58.520 | including you might, for example, have a home with some equity in the home.

00:28:03.120 | At the moment, it's not doing anything.

00:28:04.720 | It's sitting there in the house.

00:28:06.800 | The thought of not having a house or your house, it can drive people crazy.

00:28:10.400 | But I've got to say, I've moved out of mine and I'm now renting it out, which helps deal

00:28:16.400 | with that sort of debt, if there's any debt.

00:28:19.600 | And it provides an income source that might let you kickstart yourself in this new, amazing

00:28:24.440 | life.

00:28:25.440 | Spending your time doing things that you find fun.

00:28:29.600 | And I guess this is where I'm a little bit different to Tim.

00:28:32.320 | Tim talks about creating a muse.

00:28:34.280 | He says, I'm proceeding on the assumption that the best business is the one that takes

00:28:38.360 | the shortest amount of time.

00:28:39.760 | And then so he proceeds on seeing a niche, minimizing it, outsourcing it, getting cash

00:28:44.800 | flow in from it.

00:28:46.280 | That's his sort of model, which he doesn't talk a lot about, even though that's the hardest

00:28:50.160 | bit, I think, in what he discusses.

00:28:52.840 | I sort of think if you become as efficient as possible, sort of radically, even if--

00:28:57.120 | and it helps if you've got a partner.

00:28:58.120 | You and your partner live in a tent somewhere by the beach.

00:29:02.520 | That's fantastic.

00:29:03.520 | It costs you almost nothing.

00:29:04.520 | And so you become as efficient as possible.

00:29:06.720 | Maybe you're getting vegetables from somewhere, you've ticked all the boxes.

00:29:09.720 | I mean, straight away, your happiness, particularly if you've stopped going into some sort of

00:29:14.120 | grudgery or hellhole, your happiness is about a million times more.

00:29:17.240 | And that in itself is such a powerful thing.

00:29:20.680 | Because when I was the partner of the firm doing this, doing that, the thought of living

00:29:24.800 | in a tent, what?

00:29:25.800 | It's crazy.

00:29:26.800 | At the moment, we've just spent the last eight months sort of in a small RV type car traveling

00:29:35.320 | around Australia.

00:29:36.320 | And I've got to tell you, it's been the happiest time of my life.

00:29:39.400 | And it's so far removed from the fancy alcohol and the fancy house and the big law business

00:29:45.780 | and so on.

00:29:46.780 | And yet, it's so much more pleasurable.

00:29:48.320 | But going back to what I was saying, you become as efficient as you can cost-wise, which gives

00:29:52.080 | you options.

00:29:53.160 | And then I think you look for-- you do what you want to do.

00:29:56.320 | My sister's into llamas.

00:29:58.120 | I've had interest in children's books.

00:30:00.440 | I did some crazy children's books.

00:30:01.760 | I just wanted to do those things.

00:30:03.440 | They're fun.

00:30:04.800 | And then I think commercialization opportunities in whatever fun activity you engage in will

00:30:08.960 | present themselves.

00:30:09.960 | And I guess you'd be an example of that.

00:30:11.560 | You've obviously got a real passion for this radical personal finance.

00:30:15.160 | And no doubt, every day you wake up and go, this is fun.

00:30:17.040 | I'm talking to all these cool people.

00:30:18.400 | It's radical.

00:30:19.400 | No one else is doing it.

00:30:20.400 | And so if you do what's fun, I think commercialization opportunities will present themselves.

00:30:24.320 | You take advantage of those opportunities.

00:30:25.880 | But I guess rather than following your passion forever, you don't leverage up, assuming that

00:30:29.680 | that's always going to be there.

00:30:31.360 | But commercialization opportunities will present themselves, preferably in a way that provides

00:30:35.240 | you with an ongoing passive income.

00:30:38.000 | And then I think from time to time-- and for a lot of us, it might be every couple of years--

00:30:43.120 | you change focus.

00:30:44.120 | And again, we saw that with Jacob.

00:30:45.360 | He went through, I guess as I'm going through now, this awareness and awakening on the ability

00:30:50.380 | to retire effectively from your career and do fun things.

00:30:53.880 | And so he focused on that.

00:30:54.920 | And now he's focusing on something else that takes his interest.

00:30:57.040 | He's a quant trader or some sort of advanced mathematics in the stock exchange, which caused

00:31:03.320 | some people to say, oh, no.

00:31:05.040 | He dubbed them the retirement police.

00:31:07.000 | Retirement police said, you're not retired anymore.

00:31:08.600 | You're a hypocrite.

00:31:09.600 | But the guy was only 33.

00:31:10.600 | He's not going to sit like a vegetable for 50 years, is he?

00:31:14.920 | Of course he's going to do things that he finds interesting.

00:31:17.000 | And some of those things might provide him with cash.

00:31:20.760 | And I think that's true of take llamas.

00:31:24.960 | I was just helping my sister with her llama magazine.

00:31:28.040 | She's volunteered to be an editor.

00:31:30.040 | And there's one fellow in there.

00:31:31.440 | And she pointed to him.

00:31:32.440 | See, that guy, he was an engineer fixing planes, only about late 30s, 40, perhaps.

00:31:38.920 | And he'd had enough.

00:31:39.920 | He'd somehow acquired this small little farm with llamas on it.

00:31:43.360 | And he now takes people on little llama tours.

00:31:47.340 | And so he's reduced his costs down to very little.

00:31:50.520 | And he loves llamas.

00:31:51.520 | And he's taking people on a llama tour.

00:31:53.080 | And I think that's an example of how commercialization opportunities present themselves.

00:31:57.600 | It's such a world apart from the heavy-hitting career and having to go into the kitchen all

00:32:01.800 | day for 40 years.

00:32:04.200 | And I'm sure he could also have a llama blog.

00:32:06.080 | He could write little llama books.

00:32:07.200 | And he's not trying to exploit people.

00:32:08.640 | He's just following his passion and almost helping people if they're interested in llamas.

00:32:13.120 | And a few bucks comes his way.

00:32:14.640 | He's efficient.

00:32:15.640 | It's enough to get by.

00:32:16.640 | And he's got a huge smile on his face.

00:32:18.640 | And in a few years' time, it might be something else he's interested in.

00:32:22.760 | People talk and write about their travel.

00:32:24.160 | I mean, that's harder.

00:32:25.240 | But I think whatever you're interested in, whatever your passion is, without trying all

00:32:29.640 | that hard, these commercialization activities will present themselves.

00:32:33.160 | And in taking advantage of them, you're actually providing something fun and interesting to

00:32:38.160 | other people because you're not being cynical about it.

00:32:40.440 | It is your passion.

00:32:41.440 | You're really interested in it.

00:32:42.480 | You want to help people.

00:32:43.480 | You want to give them a ride on a llama.

00:32:44.960 | You want to tell them a funny story in a book.

00:32:47.840 | And it all works.

00:32:48.840 | And it works in a way that means that you spend-- I mean, what is life but a series

00:32:52.120 | of moments?

00:32:53.120 | And sort of every moment when you're pursuing something you're really interested in, in

00:32:57.520 | that moment, it's fun.

00:32:59.760 | And it sounds almost childish.

00:33:01.400 | But I've gone from this very serious, intense, competitive life in which cash was the measure

00:33:08.400 | of success.

00:33:09.400 | He's earning x hundred thousand dollars.

00:33:11.880 | Oh, that bastard.

00:33:12.880 | And so on.

00:33:13.880 | And now my life, it consists of a series of beautiful moments, really.

00:33:20.120 | And cash is just a tool.

00:33:21.920 | It's a tool.

00:33:22.920 | And I think if you had to look at the most important things in your life, like cash is

00:33:29.000 | it even in the top 10?

00:33:30.000 | Like if you look at your health, your relationships, enjoying nature, experiences, really, what's

00:33:36.920 | cash?

00:33:37.920 | And I think a lot of older people, I mean, they don't talk about being young and being

00:33:42.480 | able to run down a beach or seduce a man or a woman for pleasure and have a relationship

00:33:49.440 | and all that sort of stuff.

00:33:50.440 | Because all that stuff is diminishing for them.

00:33:52.120 | And so, of course, they want to reinforce that they're kings of the castle.

00:33:55.960 | And the fact they're worth $10 million makes them very important and successful people.

00:34:00.880 | But I make this point in the book.

00:34:03.920 | I'm sure any one of them would give every cent of it up if they could be 20 again.

00:34:09.880 | And enjoying their time in the sun with a group of friends and for their parents to

00:34:14.760 | be alive.

00:34:15.760 | And that's what life is, I think.

00:34:17.840 | And the focus just on money.

00:34:19.800 | I mean, you become-- it's not just try it.

00:34:23.600 | Your life really is extremely limited if you spend all day just pursuing cash in the highest

00:34:29.920 | paying specialized industry.

00:34:33.680 | And you might do it-- people talk about deferred gratification.

00:34:37.120 | And look, you've got a big brain.

00:34:38.720 | It's all about solving problems.

00:34:40.000 | And I mentioned that as well, I think.

00:34:42.160 | And Jacob has made this point.

00:34:45.680 | If you look at-- if your goal is having this wonderful life, or treat that as the biggest

00:34:49.720 | problem for you to solve, putting everything on the table, most people save their brains

00:34:55.160 | for their job.

00:34:56.160 | And you get the most successful analysts with-- it's just lives.

00:35:00.160 | What's going on?

00:35:01.160 | And I saw a comic, the paper a day or so, that was just that.

00:35:04.720 | Some sort of management consultant.

00:35:06.920 | And we all know them.

00:35:07.920 | They're all around the world.

00:35:08.920 | They haven't slept in six months.

00:35:10.360 | And they're the biggest brains and advise the biggest companies.

00:35:14.240 | And yet their lives are shit.

00:35:15.880 | And the bloke who works at the fish and chip shop three nights a week, living on the coast

00:35:22.400 | and surfing every day, his life's a million times better with a relaxed girlfriend.

00:35:26.000 | So if you treat your life as a problem to be solved using the same brainpower that you

00:35:30.960 | apply to your work, and put everything on the table, including the country you live

00:35:36.120 | in, what you do with your time all day, where you live, you can really make a difference.

00:35:42.560 | And if you enjoy being free-- and most people are scared by the idea of it-- if you enjoy

00:35:47.280 | it-- and for me, it's a million times better than the drudgery-- if you enjoy it, then

00:35:51.080 | once you cross over, you'll do anything to stay there.

00:35:54.840 | I don't know if that was your experience.

00:35:57.720 | No, absolutely.

00:35:58.720 | I tell you, a month after I left the firm I was with, I was sitting at the breakfast

00:36:06.280 | table with my wife one day.

00:36:08.240 | And I was just saying-- and I was telling her-- I said, I just realized that for my

00:36:12.680 | entire life, I don't think I have ever been free.

00:36:18.440 | I think I now am experiencing the sensation of being free more than I ever have in the

00:36:24.480 | history of my life.

00:36:26.440 | And it didn't have to do with my time.

00:36:28.680 | For me, it had to do with my freedom of speech.

00:36:32.520 | And I realized that throughout my entire lifetime-- and this is not some-- what's the term?

00:36:39.920 | It's not-- it wasn't some hardcore crime that was foisted on me.

00:36:46.920 | But I realized that throughout my entire lifetime, I really had never had freedom of speech and

00:36:52.120 | freedom to live and do what I wanted to do in this way.

00:36:55.920 | When I was in high school, if I said the wrong thing or did the wrong thing, I'd be expelled

00:37:00.720 | from high school.

00:37:01.720 | When I was in college, if I said the wrong thing and did the wrong thing, I'd be expelled

00:37:04.640 | from college.

00:37:05.640 | After college, I worked for a corporate marketing company.

00:37:09.120 | Then I needed to represent the company well.

00:37:11.320 | Then after that, I started my financial planning firm.

00:37:13.700 | And I had both the industry regulations under which I agreed to-- I voluntarily chose to

00:37:20.040 | abide-- and then also the rules, the corporate image of the company, and the internal regulations

00:37:27.480 | and rules.

00:37:28.640 | So all of those things, however, limit what you're able to say and what you're able to

00:37:32.880 | do.

00:37:33.880 | And then combined with those things, the general peer pressure of my reference group.

00:37:39.960 | If my reference group is other financial advisors or my clients or something like that, I have

00:37:44.520 | to live in such a way that is acceptable to them.

00:37:48.680 | I don't have to live in that way, but I am societally accustomed to living in a way that's

00:37:53.400 | acceptable to other people.

00:37:55.720 | And then it was after being away-- and I had a wonderful group of coworkers.

00:38:00.120 | But after being away for a month, I forgot about what they cared about and got in touch

00:38:04.000 | with what I cared about.

00:38:06.640 | And then also just the ability to say what I wanted to say and do what I wanted to do.

00:38:12.560 | I could, in a moment, I could destroy this show by saying the wrong thing.

00:38:17.380 | But that's my choice to do it.

00:38:18.860 | And I have that choice and that prerogative.

00:38:22.900 | And it's just a really freeing sensation.

00:38:25.080 | And once you come out of it, you look back.

00:38:27.280 | I mean, I told my wife, I said, "There is no chance.

00:38:30.880 | Let me not be quite so extreme."

00:38:32.320 | I tell her, I mean, I could do anything if I need to do it.

00:38:36.080 | And so if my family were hungry, I would go and do whatever needs to be done in order

00:38:44.640 | to make sure that my family is not hungry.

00:38:46.560 | I mean, I have chosen to take on to myself responsibility.

00:38:51.480 | And that's extremely important to me.

00:38:53.640 | But in an idealized world, I would simply say, I'm not going to go back and take a corporate

00:39:00.280 | job just simply to fit someone else's agenda for me.

00:39:04.680 | I would rather start a hot dog cart.

00:39:06.560 | I would rather rent our house out and go and be a farm worker and live-- I just don't want

00:39:14.320 | to live it.

00:39:15.320 | I don't want to sit in rush hour traffic.

00:39:16.720 | And I don't want to have this expensive food that has made me fat.

00:39:22.240 | And I don't want to live it.

00:39:23.640 | I would rather farm my backyard.

00:39:27.920 | There's so many things that I would rather do.

00:39:29.800 | And now, I mean, I've got ideals left and right.

00:39:32.600 | I've got lists of things that are backup plans to the backup plans to the backup plans.

00:39:37.760 | And the cool thing is, is that I'm excited about all the different potential options.

00:39:42.200 | I don't have time to do them.

00:39:44.160 | And I want to do them because they seem fun to me.

00:39:47.640 | And I don't have time to do them all.

00:39:51.520 | And I might make an observation, I guess, about one family.

00:39:56.040 | And that is extremely important.

00:39:57.960 | And as providers, you've got to get that right.

00:40:00.000 | And that trumps everything.

00:40:01.560 | But you also said, if they're hungry, I'll do whatever I have to do.

00:40:07.840 | And that's where I think it is a powerful observation in the book, which, of course,

00:40:11.400 | others have made, is that we're living in a time now in which the essentials of human

00:40:15.480 | life are such, I guess, are provided for in such a way that we're living better now than

00:40:21.520 | any king lived in the past.

00:40:23.760 | And I mentioned a YouTube clip that I saw where John Lennon was being interviewed, I

00:40:31.120 | think, in the '60s.

00:40:33.240 | And the olden day voice said, only a beetle could have a television in his car.

00:40:39.400 | And there was John Lennon sitting in the back of his car with this big old black and white

00:40:43.200 | TV.

00:40:44.200 | And he was looking pretty pleased with himself.

00:40:45.200 | I thought, jeez, they're the biggest rock band that's ever been.

00:40:49.760 | And this guy's a millionaire many times over.

00:40:53.560 | And what's he got?

00:40:54.560 | A big, stinking black and white TV in the back of his car.

00:40:58.880 | And the penny sort of dropped.

00:41:00.880 | I've got in my pocket something that's 20 million times better than that TV.

00:41:06.480 | And yet, I'd say it as a 17-year-old kid.

00:41:10.800 | And yet, we're greedy for more.

00:41:11.800 | We're sort of richer.

00:41:13.080 | The poorest of us in the lucky countries that we both live in, almost the poorest of us,

00:41:17.320 | at least the poorest of us that are contemplating an exit, have more stuff than the richest

00:41:24.800 | human really for the last 100,000 years.

00:41:29.480 | And so if you want more than that, you've really got to query your motivation.

00:41:35.840 | How can you not be happy with the baseline stuff that's pretty well available to everyone

00:41:39.760 | if that baseline stuff through science and advancement is far more than the richest person

00:41:46.740 | had even 20 years ago?

00:41:48.080 | I mean, 20 years ago, the richest man in the world didn't have access to the stuff that

00:41:52.440 | we have access to.

00:41:53.440 | They didn't have the medicine.

00:41:54.440 | They didn't have the technology, the cars.

00:41:57.600 | It's all-- we are the richest people in the world at any time except the current time.

00:42:03.240 | And you want more?

00:42:05.520 | You want more?

00:42:06.520 | It's really got to be quite special for you to trade your precious life to get more than

00:42:11.960 | the richest person in the world 10 years ago.

00:42:15.080 | And I guess that's about being grateful for what we have and recognizing the cold, hard

00:42:19.160 | fact that we, through base technology, just catching up with the everyday man, we have

00:42:25.960 | more, more, more, more than the richest person in the world not that long ago.

00:42:29.560 | And so for you to be thinking, I need more again, I mean, what does that say about you

00:42:33.440 | once you realize it?

00:42:34.440 | Right.

00:42:35.440 | So it's all these things combined, I guess, that enabled me to be the happiest I've ever

00:42:42.080 | been and earning the least that I've ever earned.

00:42:46.240 | But my life is so wonderful compared to how it was before.

00:42:50.760 | And I mean, I can't compare the earnings from the past to the earnings now.

00:42:55.120 | But I think I was confused about what money was because you talk about your peer group

00:43:01.680 | setting standards and they try hanging out with lawyers for 20 years.

00:43:05.320 | They're the most conservative bunch out there.

00:43:08.360 | And if you look at the envy they had between themselves, it's extraordinary.

00:43:13.360 | And their whole life might be turning to custard.

00:43:16.280 | But if they have the cash, they sort of strut around.

00:43:20.920 | What does it mean?

00:43:21.920 | I mean, they look 50 at 30.

00:43:23.880 | And Ferris talks about that in his book as well.

00:43:26.480 | He talks about people being a cross between, his 30-year-old friends look like a cross

00:43:30.200 | between Donald Trump and Joan Rivers, I think he said.

00:43:33.000 | It's horrendous.

00:43:34.000 | And I mean, the same as me.

00:43:35.640 | I hung out with people who really were quite-- by any normal standard, they weren't ordinary

00:43:42.880 | human beings.

00:43:43.880 | I mean, the greed was insatiable with some of them.

00:43:47.360 | And I mean, why?

00:43:48.360 | What are they going to do with it?

00:43:49.360 | I mean, are they just going to die with it?

00:43:50.360 | Are they going to drink $1,000 bottles of wine?

00:43:52.840 | I mean, it's got to serve a purpose.

00:43:54.640 | And the most important for me, important things for me, as I said, are health.

00:44:00.960 | And you mentioned eating the food that makes you fat.

00:44:03.000 | Well, again, being a professional service provider in the legal industry is similar.

00:44:07.000 | You're professionally drinking twice a week.

00:44:09.640 | You're going out to fancy lunches.

00:44:11.200 | And in your own mind, I think we can all fall trap to wanting to be special in some way.

00:44:16.320 | And you've got all this cash flow coming through.

00:44:18.200 | And everyone else is doing it.

00:44:19.200 | Why not go to the fancy restaurant?

00:44:21.280 | And it's this sort of spiral into madness and poor health over time.

00:44:26.080 | But health, surely it's your number one priority.

00:44:28.800 | And people don't talk about it, really.

00:44:31.280 | They just talk about cash.

00:44:32.880 | But for some of us, I think a lot of people-- if you are overweight, the best thing you

00:44:37.480 | could do is take a year off, if nothing else.

00:44:38.880 | Take a year off.

00:44:39.880 | Fix that.

00:44:40.880 | You'll be 50 times happier.

00:44:41.880 | Go back to your career.

00:44:42.880 | And that's something else that I first read in Ferris's book.

00:44:47.200 | But it's something I think is very true.

00:44:48.720 | And that's that fear-setting exercise where you imagine the absolute worst thing that

00:44:54.600 | could happen to you if you take the plunge you're considering.

00:44:58.720 | And then look at how difficult it would be to restore the position you're in at the moment.

00:45:03.640 | And for most people, if it all went pear-shaped, if-- whereas people less capable than you

00:45:09.840 | have made this work, that if for whatever reason you got unlucky, it was all a terrible

00:45:13.480 | tragedy, how hard would it be for you to restore your current position?

00:45:16.680 | And in many cases, you just get another job.

00:45:19.280 | It's not that hard.

00:45:20.600 | And so that fear-setting exercise makes it-- it gives you confidence to take the plunge.

00:45:27.000 | And I knew that whilst I wouldn't be able to jump straight away in the same money that

00:45:31.440 | I was on, which was high because I'd been in the industry for so long, I could certainly

00:45:35.920 | get an extremely well-paying job anywhere in the world if I wanted to.

00:45:39.840 | And so what did I have to lose?

00:45:41.480 | It just turned out I had an enormous amount to gain.

00:45:44.760 | And I think many of the listeners would as well.

00:45:47.960 | And what's funny is I'll bet you either have found or will find that just simply by being

00:45:53.320 | off of the beaten track, you'll get exposed to opportunities you never would have known

00:45:58.120 | existed.

00:46:00.480 | I've gotten exposed-- even in the four months that I've been doing this show, I've gotten

00:46:04.680 | exposed to a bunch of opportunities.

00:46:07.720 | And I've had the choice, you know, at any one of them I could have said, "Yeah, I'll

00:46:10.800 | take it."

00:46:11.800 | But I haven't been interested because I've still got this crazy idea about the thing

00:46:15.800 | that I want to build, my contribution to the world.

00:46:19.240 | And it's funny because it seems so scary until you take the step.

00:46:25.400 | And then once you take the step, you're like, "Huh, that was it?

00:46:27.800 | Wow, interesting."

00:46:28.800 | Yeah.

00:46:29.800 | And every day is wonderful compared to the past.

00:46:33.800 | One favorite story I have on people who escaped was a baker in Sydney.

00:46:39.200 | And baking is a pretty hard job, and you've got to get up really early, and you're not

00:46:43.360 | really paid a whole lot.

00:46:44.960 | And he started baking cakes on YouTube.

00:46:46.960 | That's his job.

00:46:47.960 | Really?

00:46:48.960 | Wow.

00:46:49.960 | He's a photographer, he's the cake guy on YouTube.

00:46:52.960 | And I remember him saying, "Yeah, I feel a bit guilty because all my mates are getting

00:46:57.400 | up at 3 o'clock and they're off to the bakery."

00:47:00.320 | And his big hit that got in the media at that time is that he'd made a Spider-Man cake to

00:47:04.520 | coincide with the release of the Spider-Man movie.

00:47:06.760 | And I guess kids are into Spider-Man, and parents go to YouTube, look for a Spider-Man

00:47:10.760 | cake, and there he is.

00:47:11.760 | And the revenue from the advertising freed him from the bakery.

00:47:15.920 | And he probably serves half the time, makes cakes, and he does whatever he wants to do.

00:47:21.320 | And I think in terms of a process, when people, particularly if you've been really working

00:47:25.080 | hard for over a decade, there's definitely an unwind period.

00:47:29.120 | And you might get sick, you might be scared, "What do I do?"

00:47:33.640 | But then you go crazy.

00:47:34.640 | I think you go crazy with travel, you go crazy with freedom, doing pretty well nothing, I

00:47:40.520 | think.

00:47:41.520 | And you might have to recover mentally and physically.

00:47:42.520 | It's almost like a recovery from burnout for a lot of people.

00:47:46.440 | But ultimately, and again, Ferris talks about this filling the void, I think it's like,

00:47:51.120 | "I do want to give back.

00:47:52.480 | I want to do something.

00:47:53.480 | I'm a young, capable, intelligent person.

00:47:56.320 | Of course I'm going to do something.

00:47:57.320 | What's in the next project?"

00:47:59.440 | And the difference is the project is your project, and any pressure is pressure imposed

00:48:03.920 | by you.

00:48:04.920 | There's not people really assessing your work unless you're trying to sell it.

00:48:08.240 | And the project needn't be for cash.

00:48:10.840 | I think the first priority is the fun or the passion at that moment.

00:48:16.000 | You follow that, and then these commercialization opportunities present themselves.

00:48:19.920 | But you do end up filling your time with something.

00:48:23.760 | I think it's human nature.

00:48:25.360 | A lot of people, including Jacob and Tim, talk about the acquisition of skills as being

00:48:30.680 | a really rewarding thing.

00:48:31.680 | I know Jacob was big into sailing and woodworking.

00:48:35.120 | And Tim is famous for his rapid learning.

00:48:39.720 | And I think he's learned a million skills, including most recently, he obviously got

00:48:45.400 | into investing.

00:48:46.400 | I think he started hanging around very rich people and thought, "Oh, why don't I learn

00:48:48.880 | how to do angel investing?"

00:48:50.840 | But I think it'd be unfair to say he's just chasing a coin because he's acquired many

00:48:55.600 | other skills.

00:48:56.600 | And I think your skills and your dreams atrophy when you're locked in the specialized business,

00:49:02.640 | except in that area.

00:49:03.640 | I'm highly expert at commercial contracts and risk allocation and intellectual property

00:49:09.760 | aspects of that as well.

00:49:10.760 | But, geez, I'd much prefer to be able to make a bowl out of wood.

00:49:17.640 | Doesn't mean I want to spend 40 years in a bowl factory, but I wouldn't mind spending

00:49:21.320 | a few months or a couple of years getting really good at that.

00:49:24.400 | And then when you do get really good at something, you're into what they talk about as the flow,

00:49:29.760 | being really immersed in the moment, enjoying your specialized skills, but only having the

00:49:33.840 | ability to learn another skill and another skill, particularly if you're living a long

00:49:37.680 | life.

00:49:38.680 | We're looking at a long life, hopefully, as part of lower stress and better health and

00:49:44.360 | all the rest of it.

00:49:45.360 | And so I think skill acquisition, pursuing projects, it's all there and you've got the

00:49:49.960 | time to do it.

00:49:51.520 | And as I said, without being greedy or deliberate, commercialization opportunities will just

00:49:56.280 | present themselves.

00:49:57.280 | And the more efficient you are and the more skilled you are at living, the less you'll

00:50:03.440 | have to think about the commercialization opportunities.

00:50:06.640 | And if you get really efficient at living, just doing fun things like making cakes or

00:50:12.240 | doing llama rides or writing crazy kids books, which is what I've done, the money coming

00:50:19.080 | in from that will see you through, particularly if, and again, if you don't have the kids,

00:50:23.360 | the options are really open to almost like a camping lifestyle.

00:50:27.120 | Sounds crazy, but it's really fun.

00:50:30.360 | Traveling on a budget around the world, the geo-arbitrage, taking advantage of different

00:50:34.240 | exchange rates.

00:50:37.240 | I was recently in the north of Thailand and I know a lot of people talk about it, but

00:50:40.640 | I was up there sort of checking it out.

00:50:43.880 | And it really is cheap up there.

00:50:45.480 | Like for a couple of bucks a month, you can get not a bad unit or apartment to live in.

00:50:52.520 | And the food is, street food's basically free.

00:50:55.720 | And I'm sure there are many countries around the world where you can really take advantage

00:51:00.760 | of cost of living.

00:51:01.760 | I know America, it's much cheaper to live in America than Australia.

00:51:02.760 | Australia's got this mining boom going on and everyone thinks they're a millionaire

00:51:08.120 | now and we think we're getting rich by selling each other property, which I believe America

00:51:13.920 | played with in the mid 2000s.

00:51:17.360 | And so for a lot of people from Brisbane, which is where I'm from, even though I've

00:51:20.360 | been traveling for a little while, Brisbane people, their societal sort of structure and

00:51:28.440 | commands is to get a government job almost, a government job or a mining job, and then

00:51:33.120 | buy a house that's worth half a million dollars or more, and then spend 30 years paying

00:51:38.080 | it off.

00:51:39.080 | That's it.

00:51:40.080 | And all their money goes into that and they have barbecues in their backyard.

00:51:43.440 | That's the formula for those guys.

00:51:45.640 | I know I'm looking at buying, my partner is looking at buying a house in Ireland because

00:51:55.760 | looking globally, and you can look globally, Irish houses there can be bought for under

00:52:02.840 | 100,000.

00:52:03.840 | So it makes sense, doesn't it?

00:52:05.520 | And I know there are lovely Irish cottages, they might be 50,000 euro, 60,000 euro.

00:52:10.600 | Whereas here, the same lovely cottage would be half a million dollars or $600,000.

00:52:16.360 | And so I think you're looking, like really thinking outside, so you don't have to just

00:52:20.680 | spend all your time in the little or big town that you've grown up in.

00:52:24.520 | I mean, people live all over the world at salaries that are extremely small in some

00:52:29.240 | cases.

00:52:30.240 | And you just got to be aware, travel, look at opportunities, look at cost of living.

00:52:38.200 | These Irish houses, Ireland suffered, they thought they got a bit too big for their boots

00:52:43.040 | and everyone was borrowing millions to buy property largely.

00:52:48.560 | And then it all went bad, all their banks almost went broke, they had to be bailed out

00:52:52.440 | by the Europe.

00:52:53.840 | No one's lending and now property is extremely cheap.

00:52:59.960 | And so there's no reason why we can't buy there and live in Ireland for a while and

00:53:03.920 | have fun.

00:53:05.040 | And then get an upswing, rent it out, I mean there are a million options.

00:53:10.800 | And having the time and the mental freedom to think about it, gives you a solution other

00:53:17.240 | than just the 30 years of paying off that suburban home and having barbecues on the

00:53:21.400 | weekend.

00:53:22.400 | The ability to be efficient, as you call it, is such a massive game changer.

00:53:30.680 | And that efficiency both in the amount of money that you need, and then the, maybe it's

00:53:35.600 | the same word, but I would say the ability to be flexible in your thinking allows you,

00:53:41.120 | if you're okay with a very potentially difficult situation, you may also have potentially a

00:53:47.760 | massively valuable situation, like a peak experience that you didn't get that you wouldn't

00:53:52.920 | have otherwise.

00:53:55.640 | This flexibility of thought, I think is just one of the most valuable concepts that we

00:53:59.480 | don't often talk about.

00:54:00.680 | I remember one time I went to, well two trips stand out, one time I went to Columbia and

00:54:08.320 | I didn't want to spend much money and I just kind of jumped on an airplane.

00:54:11.600 | But I was totally cool with, I didn't have any reservations, I didn't know where I was

00:54:15.320 | going, I just decided I got a cheap plane ticket to go to Bogota and I flew into Bogota,

00:54:20.860 | but I was okay with just about anything, including sleeping on the airport floor.

00:54:24.280 | Well I wound up finding an amazing hostel to stay in, then I asked the people at the

00:54:28.320 | hostel what I should do, they told me to go to another town, it's a town called Villa

00:54:31.960 | de Leyva, and I jumped on a bus and I went there, I didn't have any accommodations, I

00:54:36.080 | got there, I asked somebody, I wound up being shown to this amazing hostel and it's $11

00:54:41.480 | a night for a beautiful room in the mountains overlooking the hills and the mountains.

00:54:48.040 | Now it was this amazing peak experience, but it was open to me because I was able to actually

00:54:54.280 | do it because I was okay with having a really disastrous experience.

00:54:57.720 | I never had a disastrous experience, but I would have been completely fine with it.

00:55:02.080 | But if I were requiring and said no matter what, I'm not willing to run the risk of not

00:55:07.240 | having a place to stay, so I've got to sit at home on the computer and I've got to sketch

00:55:11.160 | out like here I'm going to stay here, and that's $98 a night, I wouldn't have had the

00:55:16.280 | money to go at that point in time probably.

00:55:20.200 | And that's the thing, I think a huge amount of pleasure can be obtained by having these

00:55:25.280 | adventures and by solving problems and you probably felt quite chuffed with yourself,

00:55:30.320 | you still are.

00:55:31.320 | Right, I still tell the stories, it was an awesome trip.

00:55:36.880 | And that's how I've been living with my girlfriend for the last seven months, just driving around

00:55:41.760 | Australia like we didn't really have a plan and then just on a whim we flew to Thailand.

00:55:46.660 | Every day we had no plan, it was what do we want to do, what do we want to do, and that's

00:55:50.480 | freedom.

00:55:51.480 | We almost were in the middle of a bushfire, a wildfire, one side of the road and the lights

00:55:58.720 | shine, it's a beautiful sunset, someone must be frying some food.

00:56:01.680 | No, it was a bushfire coming to get us and driving off, but that's a wonderful story

00:56:06.240 | now.

00:56:07.240 | Right.

00:56:08.240 | That's the thing, you can turn really just about any horrible experience, and I'm sure

00:56:14.880 | there are exceptions, but you can turn many really tough experiences into just kind of

00:56:21.640 | fun by just viewing it as an adventure.

00:56:24.160 | And I'll give two simple examples.

00:56:27.120 | When I was growing up, purely because he was an adventurous guy, Teddy Roosevelt in the

00:56:31.280 | United States was one of my favorite presidents.

00:56:33.480 | Now, I didn't know anything about his politics at the time, now I'm not such a huge fan,

00:56:37.760 | but when I was a kid I just thought he was cool because he was a president who went to

00:56:41.320 | Africa and hunted lions, and he was leading the rough riders, he's kind of a folk hero

00:56:48.000 | in American history.

00:56:50.760 | But the thing is, you think about him, sitting here, what was it, the 19th, 18th, a long

00:56:56.000 | time ago, I can't place the date off the top of my head, a long time ago he's sitting there

00:57:01.920 | in Africa, living in a tent, on a very basic cot, and eating food that's cooked over a

00:57:08.960 | fire somewhere.

00:57:09.960 | Now, yes, he has a number of servants, he has a number of people that are serving him,

00:57:14.720 | he's got plenty of money to do this, but what's he doing?

00:57:17.320 | He's living in a tent, in a beautiful place, hunting lions every day.

00:57:21.320 | Now question, that was what one of the richest, most powerful former presidents of the United

00:57:26.600 | States was able to do at that point in time.

00:57:29.320 | If I wanted to go and have an adventure like that, A, I could go do it in Africa, and that

00:57:33.360 | wouldn't actually be that big of a deal, but I can also do that wherever I happen to be,

00:57:37.560 | whether that's in Australia or the United States or Brazil or wherever, I can go and

00:57:41.720 | I can buy a nice big fancy canvas wall tent, I can get a very comfortable cot, and even

00:57:47.040 | better, I can get a cooking stove that doesn't require me to start a fire from wood to cook

00:57:53.320 | on, for 10 or 15 bucks I can get a Coleman camp stove from the local Walmart, I can have

00:57:58.660 | an internet connection and stream Netflix while I'm lying in my comfortable, what's

00:58:05.120 | the foam stuff, tempur-pedic pad on my cot in a beautiful part of the world for free.

00:58:12.600 | There's land all over the world that I can do it for free.

00:58:14.840 | But in order to be able to do that, I would have to be able to cut the mental chains,

00:58:18.640 | and that's what's challenging.

00:58:20.440 | Yeah, and it's the very lifestyle I've been living the last seven or eight months,

00:58:26.440 | just that on the road thing, and it's never been easier, and with technology, you're able

00:58:32.240 | to continue to run your affairs back home and get access to entertainment and all that

00:58:40.280 | sort of stuff, it's never been easier, and indeed the radical immediate retirement book

00:58:47.240 | I wrote in the monkey mire, watching the dolphins swim up and down the beach.

00:58:53.160 | You can get these little projects going even when living in that very simple way.

00:59:00.880 | What's interesting psychologically, and I've thought a bit about this, is if you're thinking

00:59:04.480 | about taking the plunge, it's much easier to do it in a very different situation, and

00:59:09.640 | I think that goes to our conditioning, even if you're aware of it.

00:59:13.040 | I'm perfectly happy living in a tent while I'm on this crazy adventure, but could I live

00:59:18.480 | in a tent in the suburb I grew up in under the bridge?

00:59:22.200 | Right.

00:59:23.200 | That's a very different thing.

00:59:24.520 | It is.

00:59:25.520 | It would do my head in, but if I was in a tent on the plains of Africa, it'd be amazing.

00:59:30.600 | I think that's why travel frees you.

00:59:36.720 | It changes those very strong restrictions that society places on you, and even from

00:59:43.440 | your family, from your neighbors, from culture, from all your workmates.

00:59:47.440 | My greatest fear, I must admit, would be me with a beard living in my car or in a tent

00:59:54.360 | or something, and then my old client or co-worker walks past and goes, "David, is that you?"

01:00:01.640 | Right, exactly.

01:00:02.640 | Isn't it amazing how deep those ties go?

01:00:06.000 | Or if I posted it on Facebook, "Here I am at the local bridge."

01:00:10.120 | Right.

01:00:11.120 | "Come on in, what's happened?"

01:00:12.120 | But if I posted the same picture from Africa or Sweden or Australia, I guess, for a minute,

01:00:20.640 | "Oh, look at that guy, I'm jealous."

01:00:23.400 | Exactly.

01:00:24.400 | Here he is living his adventure.

01:00:25.400 | I've got to do the same thing.

01:00:26.400 | I think at the start, anyway, it's much easier to travel, buy a ticket anywhere, go there,

01:00:34.280 | live a crazier life.

01:00:35.800 | You might just find that some of it slips into your life back home.

01:00:40.920 | It's been recommended by others before, but I think it's Ralph Potts and his Vagabonding

01:00:45.520 | Book.

01:00:46.520 | Yep, excellent book.

01:00:47.520 | Beautiful expression on the joys of crazy adventures on the road.

01:00:52.360 | I think he quotes a line from, is it Wall Street?

01:00:57.640 | And Martin Sheen or whoever the actor was, is saying, "Oh, I'm going to make my millions

01:01:03.040 | by the time I'm 30, and then I'm going to retire and ride across China with a bicycle."

01:01:07.800 | Or ride across China on a motorcycle.

01:01:10.320 | And Potts says, "You could do that after working as a cleaner for two months."

01:01:15.360 | All this stuff's really open to anyone right now, and it can change the way you think because

01:01:23.480 | you are less at risk of being controlled by these societal and cultural norms that affect

01:01:32.000 | us all, even if we're aware of them.

01:01:34.600 | I've been living in my car for seven and a half months, having the time of my life, absolutely.

01:01:40.360 | But could I live in a car in my suburb that I grew up in?

01:01:44.080 | No, I wouldn't want to.

01:01:45.560 | I wouldn't want to, even though I know it's silly.

01:01:48.400 | But we're off to Ireland shortly.

01:01:51.440 | I'd love to ride a bicycle across Europe in summer.

01:01:55.520 | Can you imagine a more wonderful adventure?

01:01:57.280 | But I'm not going to live in my bike in Brisbane any time soon.

01:02:01.080 | Absolutely.

01:02:02.080 | That's an excellent point.

01:02:04.640 | Let's wind down with, I'd love for you to just simply, because we've talked a lot of

01:02:09.920 | philosophy and it's funny, this show, my bet is that this show will either strike someone

01:02:14.680 | as utterly ludicrous or it'll strike someone as an entirely radical concept that they love.

01:02:23.720 | And I think it probably depends upon where they're at, because many people are perfectly

01:02:28.320 | content and I think legitimately so, perfectly content.

01:02:31.780 | They love their life, they love everything, they're thrilled with what they're doing.

01:02:36.480 | And so a show like this would stand out to them saying like, "That's crazy.

01:02:40.280 | How can you be that way?"

01:02:41.400 | But there are lots of people who are oftentimes stuck without, feelings trapped and don't

01:02:47.840 | have a lot of money, don't have $2 million sitting in the bank, haven't created a muse

01:02:52.980 | that pays them 8,000 a month so they can dance the tango in Buenos Aires and lease a Ferrari.

01:03:03.320 | So this show can be a kind of a breath of fresh air to say, "Wow, I can do something."

01:03:09.400 | And it can meet people where they are.

01:03:12.320 | What specifically over the last year and a half, what were the specific steps that you

01:03:15.680 | went through once you decided to do something?

01:03:18.520 | What did you do specifically and then how have you specifically filled, you mentioned

01:03:23.120 | traveling for the last eight months, but how have you paid, how much are you spending,

01:03:27.000 | things like that?

01:03:28.000 | Yeah, well I think the first thing that I had to do was to clear my debt.

01:03:33.920 | Like a lot of people, I had investments and you build wealth through property investment

01:03:40.680 | shares, that sort of thing.

01:03:42.080 | And I cleared a lot of debt quite quickly and that was extremely liberating.

01:03:48.280 | Did you sell stuff or did you sell investments or what did you do?

01:03:51.480 | I sold, well between my girlfriend and myself, we sold three houses.

01:03:58.520 | And we just got rid of them.

01:04:01.040 | And so it really was a massive change.

01:04:02.720 | I think we're paying over $10,000 a month in interest.

01:04:09.000 | And how can you do anything?

01:04:11.280 | What sort of crazy life could you lead if you need to come up with that cash plus the

01:04:15.080 | cost of living?

01:04:16.080 | You know, sort of let alone pay any of that debt down.

01:04:19.920 | So yeah, we sold down and became debt free.

01:04:24.040 | So that was a practical thing.

01:04:26.820 | In terms of, I guess how I survived back when I was sort of transitioning, and this is,

01:04:33.520 | if you don't want to sort of go feral from day one, there's no reason why you can't build

01:04:38.520 | up some of this stuff on the side.

01:04:40.960 | And I, not for money because I had no intention of quitting, but for fun, I wrote children's

01:04:46.440 | books for, really for my nephews and nieces.

01:04:50.680 | But I was also really fascinated by online contracting.

01:04:55.760 | And I had read Tim Ferriss' book, I heard other people talk about elance.com, I know

01:05:00.800 | that you've used some contractors to set up your own activities.

01:05:06.300 | And so I was just having complete fun.

01:05:09.040 | I'd written these children's books and then through elance, I sourced a magnificent illustrator

01:05:14.960 | out of Indonesia, who was very cheap, and he did these wonderful illustrations.

01:05:19.600 | I got an editor out of Canada, who, you know, a lot of people sort of get thrown on the

01:05:24.040 | scrap heap at around 50, particularly in the media.

01:05:28.040 | And of course, they've got wonderful opportunities ahead of themselves.

01:05:30.640 | And now through elance, they can sell their time in little niche spots.

01:05:34.760 | And I got a very cheap editor, just to proofread my stuff.

01:05:40.040 | And I got a layout expert from the Philippines, who spent all day working for a book company,

01:05:45.160 | laying out professionally, and then at night was freelancing, moonlighting.

01:05:48.400 | And so I got this sort of crack team assembled extremely cheaply.

01:05:52.400 | And I find the print on demand technology thing is completely mind blowing, along with

01:05:57.960 | books.

01:05:58.960 | And for those who aren't familiar with print on demand, I know in the 80s, I heard stories

01:06:02.720 | through my parents of people who had delusions of grandeur with self publishing and that

01:06:08.440 | go broke because they spent tens of thousands of dollars printing their books.

01:06:12.480 | And of course, no one bought the books and they're sitting there in the garage, gathering

01:06:16.360 | mold.

01:06:17.360 | But now, with print on demand technology, someone orders the book, and then Amazon prints

01:06:22.000 | it and posts it.

01:06:23.480 | So it's incredible.

01:06:24.960 | And at the moment, at least once a day, a child around the world opens up a package

01:06:29.920 | and has my book in it with all the pictures.

01:06:31.920 | How cool is that?

01:06:32.920 | They were extremely gratifying.

01:06:34.800 | And I wasn't doing this for the cash.

01:06:36.960 | I did it for nieces and nephews and to explore online contracting.

01:06:40.600 | And I certainly didn't want commercial books.

01:06:42.000 | I mean, they're sort of crazy, crazy books with the stuff I would have enjoyed when I

01:06:45.560 | was a kid, but probably would never have been published.

01:06:48.840 | And then it occurred to me, I thought, what about all those kids out there who don't have

01:06:54.680 | books published in their language because they're not commercial?

01:06:56.720 | And we talk about the system, the system at the moment is making everyone speak English

01:07:00.040 | or French or one of the major languages.

01:07:02.880 | But what about those kids who speak one of the Indonesian languages closer to us or any

01:07:10.520 | of these smaller languages that aren't commercial?

01:07:12.520 | I thought it was really sad that they'd never hear their mother reading to them a kid's

01:07:18.200 | book.

01:07:19.200 | And so I really went out to the internet and said, look, would anyone out there like to

01:07:24.320 | translate my book into your language?

01:07:26.520 | Even though it's not a commercial language, I'll get it up.

01:07:28.680 | I'll pay for it to be up and I'll make it available if I can for free on YouTube with

01:07:34.600 | professional scrolling.

01:07:36.880 | And I also put out a cry for professional voiceover people to read it.

01:07:42.080 | With my thought was a little kid, assuming they had access to the internet, could sit

01:07:46.000 | there in Africa or wherever they are and listen to this story being read to them in their

01:07:50.040 | own language.

01:07:51.040 | And it may be the only book they've ever heard read to them in their own language for free.

01:07:54.560 | And I was amazed by the response.

01:07:56.960 | And this is just one of these projects you might do other than for cash.

01:08:00.240 | And I ended up with about 130 people helping me.

01:08:02.800 | I'm trying to be a partner at the same time, right?

01:08:06.080 | You know, pretty busy, busy practice and all the rest of it.

01:08:08.480 | So I ended up hiring, you know, for not a lot of money, a fantastic project manager

01:08:15.280 | who was also an ex lawyer working out of Canada.

01:08:19.480 | And so she managed these 130 effectively volunteers.

01:08:23.240 | And there was this enormous project and there were voiceovers being read.

01:08:27.840 | I had this Greek guy who was a celebrity doing it and many others.

01:08:32.760 | And I ended up with over 150 books up on Amazon in all these different languages.

01:08:39.920 | And every day, mainly in languages other than English, a child opens the book and they can

01:08:45.720 | buy it in the e-book.

01:08:46.800 | And also in many cases where I've been able to get people to help with the reading, they're

01:08:52.400 | read for free on YouTube.

01:08:55.680 | And so I do get a small income from those sales.

01:08:58.800 | And I haven't recovered the money that I put in, but I spent that money when I had a job.

01:09:02.480 | And so now I have a small bit of cash flow coming in and some losses to offset any tax

01:09:08.720 | problems for the next number of years.

01:09:10.680 | I guess that's just an example.

01:09:13.400 | One of my friends worked for a publisher and I said, you know, what would it take for you

01:09:20.200 | to publish someone's book in over 40 languages, which is where my book is.

01:09:23.960 | And if you go to Wikipedia, the most translated books in the world are pretty well behind

01:09:27.400 | the list, which is crazy.

01:09:30.560 | That's the internet.

01:09:31.560 | Everything's changing.

01:09:32.560 | And my books probably count all the languages would be in maybe 40, 45 languages.

01:09:37.520 | I haven't really counted because I'm not keeping track, but it's an amazing feat.

01:09:41.240 | And I said to him, how much would it cost?

01:09:44.120 | And could you do it?

01:09:45.400 | He said, mate, we just wouldn't even consider doing it.

01:09:47.680 | It would be impossible.

01:09:48.680 | So here I am with I'm not really doing it.

01:09:51.560 | My project manager is handling it and all the rest of it.

01:09:53.560 | I'm through the internet doing a project that a big publishing company couldn't do and wouldn't

01:09:59.560 | do.

01:10:00.560 | And that's just completely mind blowing.

01:10:02.040 | And I deliberately went as uncommercial as possible, deliberately to get the outcome

01:10:08.960 | of children and be able to hear a book being read to them in their own language.

01:10:12.360 | And yet I'm still getting an income from it, from, you know, not the YouTube stuff, but

01:10:16.600 | from people who want a hard copy and they buy it.

01:10:19.280 | And geez, if I'd made it slightly more commercial, I'd be making more money, you know.

01:10:24.360 | And so I think that just shows you can do anything.

01:10:28.960 | You really can do anything.

01:10:29.960 | We're living in this amazing, incredible time where a person who's not even devoting much

01:10:35.120 | time to it can undertake projects that corporations can't undertake with traditional structures

01:10:40.200 | of employees and having to pay $5,000 for a translation or 10 and layout and printing

01:10:45.720 | and distribution.

01:10:46.720 | It's all changed.

01:10:47.720 | And the world's sort of 20 or 30 years behind, but you don't have to be.

01:10:51.000 | So I get a little bit of money from that.

01:10:53.920 | And also looking at commercialization opportunities.

01:10:56.160 | I had all these fantastic and still do these fantastic people who can help me through eLance

01:11:00.320 | and I have long term relationships with them and we trust each other.

01:11:04.520 | I thought, well, this is looking at the fairer side of things, the potential for a muse.

01:11:09.840 | And so I set up an online publishing service really to let people take advantage of this

01:11:16.240 | amazing revolution in publishing.

01:11:20.880 | Interalia publishing dot com is the name of that.

01:11:24.640 | And you know, I with that again, I haven't really pushed me.

01:11:28.400 | This is I haven't had to.

01:11:29.400 | But I've got a few clients just from word of mouth really at work.

01:11:33.040 | And that works still happening.

01:11:34.520 | I don't touch any of it.

01:11:35.520 | I have incredibly gifted people doing it all.

01:11:39.200 | And it's really is like a Tim Ferriss muse that one.

01:11:42.480 | And so I you know, if I get involved at all, it might be to send an invoice.

01:11:47.680 | But that that is often done by my helpers as well.

01:11:50.680 | So I guess to answer it, I've got directing come in from from books, even though that

01:11:55.440 | was an on commercial project.

01:11:56.840 | And you can read about that at David J. Downey dot com with the volunteering and all the

01:12:03.280 | books you can see a link to YouTube to.

01:12:06.240 | And I've set up this muse, Interalia Publishing, and that brings in a small amount of income.

01:12:12.080 | And I do have a small amount of income coming in from investments as well.

01:12:17.940 | So that's where I am.

01:12:19.400 | And I'm looking but I'm not rich by any means.

01:12:21.720 | But I think that's the point.

01:12:22.720 | You don't have to be.

01:12:23.720 | And I see money as a very small part of my life.

01:12:26.080 | And I'm not driven by money now.

01:12:28.800 | I'm driven by experiences and just enjoying my relative youth.

01:12:33.280 | I'm I'm 39, I was 38 when I pulled the pin.

01:12:36.920 | You know, if I look at the next 12 months in a cash is the least of it.

01:12:41.120 | I'm just going to have crazy adventures while I still can.

01:12:44.040 | And with my with my partner and and why not spend this time doing fun, adventurous, outrageous

01:12:52.160 | things.

01:12:53.160 | Now is the time.

01:12:54.160 | What a story.

01:12:55.160 | What an amazing world we live in.

01:12:58.160 | Absolutely.

01:12:59.160 | I mean, we're talking now by Skype.

01:13:04.160 | You know, I found you through your tweets or Jacob got involved and we're talking free

01:13:10.560 | with for free.

01:13:11.560 | Right.

01:13:12.560 | Incredible.

01:13:13.560 | And I give an example in the book about an Australian prime minister, our most famous

01:13:17.640 | prime minister, Menzies, who's prime minister for 20 years or something like that.

01:13:21.720 | And he was so intimidated by his first international phone call.

01:13:26.060 | He planned it for weeks and then he didn't know what to say.

01:13:30.040 | And it was because it was such an incredible thing.

01:13:32.760 | You talk, he's talking to someone in England.

01:13:34.520 | Imagine it.

01:13:35.520 | You know, it used to take months by ship.

01:13:36.520 | And this is just in the 60s, mind you.

01:13:39.080 | And so, you know, we are more capable and more powerful and richer than Australia's

01:13:44.540 | most successful prime minister who who spent weeks planning for his extremely expensive

01:13:48.840 | call.

01:13:50.160 | And that should blow your mind.

01:13:51.320 | It's amazing.

01:13:52.320 | The world's full of this amazing technological advancement that if you're smart and we're

01:13:57.980 | all smart, everyone's smarter than they think, more capable than they think.

01:14:00.940 | There's so many tools out there now.

01:14:03.220 | You just spend some time thinking about your options, you know, mimic other people just

01:14:08.420 | to have a crack, do something fun just to learn, learn how to do these things.

01:14:12.260 | You know, really, there's amazing opportunities and going to university for six years and

01:14:18.740 | then spending 40 years on the treadmill is the least of it.

01:14:22.060 | Right.

01:14:23.060 | And there's really no excuse other than a mental issue.

01:14:27.420 | I just look in today's world.

01:14:30.940 | You can go and every one of us listening to this, I'm sure, has a public library that

01:14:37.060 | is relatively easily accessible.

01:14:38.700 | And that public library has free internet connections, has free computers to use, can

01:14:44.060 | connect you with Elance, with email, with everything, with YouTube, with all of the

01:14:47.900 | things that you need to create something and can give you space to work for eight, you

01:14:52.140 | know, ten hours a day for as long as they are open.

01:14:55.380 | Every single one of us lives in some kind of Western society where there's either, you

01:15:00.300 | know, guaranteed health insurance coverage for poor people or there's just simply organizations

01:15:06.260 | that will pay the bill if you get sick and you need help.

01:15:10.420 | Every one of us lives in a society where either there are official programs built by the government

01:15:17.860 | to provide food for free for those who don't have the money and/or there are individuals

01:15:24.260 | who would be charitable.

01:15:25.260 | I mean, if somebody came to me and they said, "I don't have any food, but I'm building this

01:15:27.700 | business," man, I'd give them all the food they need.

01:15:30.100 | Plus, in all of our societies, you can get calories so cheaply you can live on a buck

01:15:37.540 | or two a day and get the calories that you need to live on.

01:15:41.140 | It's not going to...

01:15:42.140 | Yeah, and look, if jobs are available, it might be you build something up on the side

01:15:45.980 | or you work part time.

01:15:46.980 | I mean, I remember I was working full time in the horror as I saw it and I was down the

01:15:52.300 | Gold Coast in Australia and there was this very chilled lady.

01:15:56.500 | For some reason, I wasn't at work and she was just fishing in the river and she was

01:16:01.020 | just a young lady.

01:16:02.020 | I said, "Oh, how have you managed this?"

01:16:04.020 | And she goes, "Oh, I just work part time at the fish and chip shop."

01:16:06.660 | Her life's better than mine.

01:16:10.220 | If you just become more efficient, get interested in being efficient rather than seeing the

01:16:15.140 | beer spill out, then get a part time job one day a week.

01:16:18.740 | You've got all the other days and you don't have to beg for food or anything.

01:16:21.180 | You can pay for your food, learn how to cook.

01:16:23.860 | It's fun.

01:16:24.860 | And then you fish.

01:16:25.860 | You fish, catch food.

01:16:26.860 | I saw a guy with these two massive salmon.

01:16:28.180 | I couldn't believe it.

01:16:30.300 | And I don't know.

01:16:31.300 | I assume it's in Australia.

01:16:32.300 | It's the same, although I don't know this.

01:16:33.540 | But in the US, we have a progressive income tax system.

01:16:36.580 | The more you make, the more you pay.

01:16:38.820 | So there's a very...

01:16:40.220 | There's a strong disincentive to make more money.

01:16:42.740 | So once you pass that basic level of living a lifestyle that's enough for you, the reality

01:16:50.620 | is none of us get more time.

01:16:54.260 | And money can always be replaced.

01:16:55.820 | You can't replace time.

01:16:57.460 | So think it through.

01:16:59.220 | Nor youth.

01:17:00.220 | Yeah, nor youth.

01:17:02.140 | This is the next...

01:17:03.140 | Depending on how old your listener is, but assuming they're under 45 or under 50, now

01:17:09.420 | is the time.

01:17:10.420 | Old age is horrific.

01:17:12.660 | And there's plenty of time to be sitting around not able to do the things that you used to

01:17:16.540 | be able to do.

01:17:17.540 | Don't waste this time.

01:17:19.820 | Now is the time to explore, to do crazy things, and to take risks.

01:17:25.900 | I only disagree with you about that last point.

01:17:27.780 | I don't think...

01:17:28.880 | If old age is horrific and I'm dreading it, then I'm not going to look forward to it.

01:17:32.140 | I'm excited about growing older because I'm...

01:17:34.980 | It's just going to be better and better and better.

01:17:38.780 | And the key is, is that how can I build a life that I don't ever want to retire from,

01:17:43.260 | such that when I'm 100 years old, I'm still rocking and rolling.

01:17:46.380 | One of my heroes was there was a doctor, I don't remember her name, but there was a doctor

01:17:50.860 | in Georgia in the United States here.

01:17:53.180 | And she was a pediatrician.

01:17:54.740 | She retired from active practice at, I think, 103, and she died at 114.

01:18:01.060 | And she had an amazing story.

01:18:03.620 | And you don't work at 103.

01:18:05.940 | There are doctors who are stuck in the grind that you were stuck in, and those doctors

01:18:11.180 | need to get out at 38 like you did.

01:18:13.780 | But there are also doctors who figured out a way to really enjoy their business and their

01:18:19.100 | life.

01:18:20.100 | You don't work till 103 if you don't really love doing it.

01:18:24.740 | It's not about being idle, is it?

01:18:26.020 | It's about doing really what you want to do, knowing your options.

01:18:28.900 | And she obviously...

01:18:29.900 | I mean, you must love that to be working that long.

01:18:33.220 | Absolutely.

01:18:34.220 | Well, David, thank you so much for coming on.

01:18:36.460 | I appreciate it.

01:18:37.460 | DavidJDowney.com.

01:18:39.260 | And I couldn't...

01:18:40.780 | What was the first word before publishing?

01:18:42.460 | I couldn't get it.

01:18:43.460 | Inter Alia.

01:18:44.460 | It's a pretentious Latin from my legal side of it.

01:18:48.180 | Inter Alia Publishing.

01:18:49.500 | Inter Alia Publishing.com.

01:18:51.420 | And then your book is on Kindle, and it's entitled Radical Immediate Retirement, right?

01:18:56.300 | That's right.

01:18:57.300 | And there will be a blog by the same entry.

01:18:59.420 | There's nothing there now because I'm not going to madly try and sell anything to anyone

01:19:03.740 | who goes there.

01:19:04.740 | But over time, I will be just posting my thoughts on things that interest me.

01:19:08.940 | Very cool.

01:19:09.940 | Well, I thank you for coming on.

01:19:10.940 | I thank you for writing it.

01:19:12.020 | I think this is properly radical, and I'm glad to share it with the audience.

01:19:16.860 | Thanks for coming on today.

01:19:17.860 | Thanks.

01:19:18.860 | Thanks for the call.

01:19:22.180 | A fun and challenging philosophy, eh?

01:19:27.100 | I find it's hard to argue with just the reality that he talks about in terms of a lot of the

01:19:32.500 | stuff being mental.

01:19:35.180 | Once you're free mentally, once you're willing to take a different approach, a different

01:19:39.700 | lifestyle, then it just affects what you can do.

01:19:43.900 | So check out David's book.

01:19:45.180 | It's a good little book.

01:19:46.180 | It's pretty short, but it's very good.

01:19:48.340 | It's one of those kind of nice slaps in the face that's pretty cool that can be a transformative

01:19:54.740 | event.

01:19:55.740 | Check out his websites.

01:19:56.740 | All of his websites and everything, all of those are linked in the show notes.

01:19:59.220 | So you can find his books, you can find his children's books, and check out the YouTube

01:20:02.820 | videos.

01:20:04.180 | All of that stuff is in the show notes for today's show.

01:20:06.980 | That's it for today for Friday.

01:20:08.680 | Thank you all so much for being here.

01:20:09.860 | I really appreciate it.

01:20:10.860 | Next week is Thanksgiving Day week in the United States, and I think at this point I

01:20:15.860 | will do shows on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.

01:20:19.540 | I'm not sure exactly which shows I will do.

01:20:22.540 | I have several interviews that I've recorded already, and I may release one or two of those,

01:20:27.020 | and I may do some other shows.

01:20:28.220 | So check back next week, and you'll see I will be taking Thursday and Friday off, and

01:20:32.540 | then I'll be back with you on the 1st of December, which will be the following Monday.

01:20:36.020 | I don't know.

01:20:38.780 | I don't know whether to do a Thanksgiving show or not.

01:20:42.340 | Sometimes those things are corny, or sometimes they're not.

01:20:44.740 | I'll have to give that a little bit more thought and see if I can do something that is Thanksgiving

01:20:48.380 | themed but that ties in.

01:20:50.940 | If it's just corny, I'll skip it.

01:20:52.980 | Thank you all so much for listening.

01:20:53.980 | If you like the show, we'd be thrilled if you'd check out the Irregular's Podcast.

01:20:58.180 | It's my membership program.

01:21:00.060 | This show is entirely listener supported.

01:21:03.380 | That's the way that I pay my bills.

01:21:05.020 | So if this has brought value to you, if you found a way that could save you a little bit

01:21:08.020 | of money, I'd be thrilled if you would support the show.

01:21:10.100 | If you're interested in more details, go to RadicalPersonalFinance.com/membership, and

01:21:15.300 | you'll find the details there.

01:21:16.860 | Incidentally, I'm still working on building that out.

01:21:19.060 | I haven't been able to get any more benefits.

01:21:21.060 | Those of you who have signed up so far, it's been primarily for just basically to support

01:21:25.940 | the show from all of the audio content.

01:21:28.620 | I've got all my list to do to start getting some additional benefits in there.

01:21:31.980 | I really do mean for that to pay for itself more than anything else.

01:21:35.900 | So that's coming soon.

01:21:37.540 | And that's for today.

01:21:38.540 | Have a great weekend, everybody.

01:21:39.540 | [music]

01:21:49.540 | [music]

01:21:59.540 | [music]

01:22:09.540 | [music]

01:22:19.540 | [music]

01:22:22.540 | Thank you for listening to today's show.

01:22:24.740 | This show is intended to provide entertainment, education, and financial enlightenment.

01:22:32.740 | Your situation is unique, and I cannot deliver any actionable advice without knowing anything

01:22:39.040 | about you.

01:22:40.780 | This show is not, and is not intended to be any form of financial advice.

01:22:48.100 | Please, develop a team of professional advisors who you find to be caring, competent, and

01:22:56.460 | trustworthy, and consult them because they are the ones who can understand your specific

01:23:02.460 | needs, your specific goals, and provide specific answers to your questions.

01:23:09.500 | Hold them accountable for your results.

01:23:12.220 | I've done my absolute best to be clear and accurate in today's show, but I'm one person

01:23:17.220 | and I make mistakes.

01:23:18.780 | If you spot a mistake in something I've said, please come by the show page and comment so

01:23:23.380 | we can all learn together.

01:23:25.580 | Until tomorrow, thanks for being here.

01:23:28.380 | With Kroger brand products from Ralph's, you can make all your favorite things this holiday

01:23:32.780 | season, because Kroger brand's proven quality products come at exceptionally low prices.

01:23:38.260 | And with a money-back quality guarantee, every dish is sure to be a favorite.

01:23:46.540 | Whether you shop delivery, pickup, or in-store, Kroger brand has all your favorite things.

01:23:52.980 | Ralph's, fresh for everyone.

01:23:55.060 | (dramatic music)

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