Trump verdict, COVID Cover-up, Crypto Corner, Salesforce drops 20%, AI correction?

00:00:00.000 | All right, everybody. As you know, there was a big verdict

00:00:04.680 | that came out today in the Trump trial in New York City. However,

00:00:08.680 | it came right after we were taping. So enjoy this episode.

00:00:11.880 | And then at the end, we'll go around the horn and get quick

00:00:15.400 | reaction from each of the besties on what they think of the

00:00:18.040 | Trump guilty verdict in the New York hush money trial. And a

00:00:23.000 | little update on the market close and tech stocks tanking

00:00:26.480 | and after our trading stick with us, man, what a week I've had.

00:00:31.360 | Oh, you have an intro I smell an intro.

00:00:34.000 | What kind of week have you had? You know, I got to, you know,

00:00:40.320 | I've always been a fan of Howard Stern. And his agent Don Buckwell

00:00:44.600 | called me and saw the show last week. This is all true. And they

00:00:49.320 | said they want to start a production company. So I started

00:00:51.360 | a production company and I've already got my first show. I've

00:00:54.680 | signed my first show the pilot. What is the show? Well, here it

00:00:57.560 | is. Let me show you. Thanks for asking.

00:00:58.680 | What you are witnessing is real. These are not actors. The cases

00:01:08.280 | are real. Both parties have agreed to settle their disputes

00:01:12.520 | here. J Cal production. The Rain Man's court. Yeah. On today's

00:01:21.280 | show. Shama guilty of first degree unbuttoning. Freedberg

00:01:26.520 | accused of plastic perjury. Jason appealing his grifting

00:01:30.960 | conviction. Throwing the book felonious Fauci. Welcome to the

00:01:36.640 | stand. Judge David Sachs.

00:01:39.040 | Hot water burn baby. Nice. That's really good. It's the

00:01:41.640 | first show from Jacob judge, then what does that make you? Are

00:01:44.800 | you like the bailiff? Like kind of like the host? Yeah. Who does

00:01:50.480 | American Idol? Right? Ryan Seacrest. I'm like gonna be the

00:01:54.000 | new Ryan Seacrest. That's what they envisioned for me. And

00:01:56.400 | that's my first spin off show.

00:01:58.000 | There's a lot of news. My inbox is blowing up. I went over to

00:02:19.400 | threads to see what was going on over there. And I got absolutely

00:02:21.720 | savage. Threads is like all the hall monitors left one school

00:02:26.160 | like if they took the four hall monitors from every school in

00:02:28.960 | the country and you put them all in one place. That's like

00:02:34.000 | Zuckerberg's Twitter revenge killer that he created, but all

00:02:39.320 | the journalists and woke folks went there. And then all the

00:02:42.080 | conspiracy theories took over x and Twitter and like, freedom of

00:02:45.840 | speech in one place and then the hall monitors in the other but

00:02:48.480 | my lord, the inbound I'm getting sacks on apparently you're

00:02:51.600 | having a party this Thursday and a couple of people are coming a

00:02:56.400 | soiree. What's happening to my birthday party? Oh, yeah. Okay.

00:03:00.120 | So there's a little soiree happening. sacks enlightening

00:03:02.800 | audience. What are you up to?

00:03:05.040 | We're hosting an event for President Trump.

00:03:17.680 | Yeah, we're hosting an event for the ones once and future

00:03:20.840 | president 45 and 45 soon to be 47. Who's week as I saw from

00:03:26.260 | your own polling data that you tweeted this morning, Jason,

00:03:28.680 | God, it's so dark. It's so dark. He's I mean, the betting markets

00:03:32.740 | are just basically they they seem to have already made their

00:03:35.960 | decision the betting markets right in the betting markets.

00:03:38.480 | They're not always right, but they were wrong actually about

00:03:41.440 | Hillary Trump. So who knows?

00:03:42.880 | And polling historically has underestimated Trump support

00:03:46.960 | because people have been reluctant to say they're

00:03:50.000 | supporting him for some reason. So yeah, things are looking very

00:03:53.480 | positive for for Trump right now. But in any event, we're

00:03:55.680 | hosting a fundraiser for him. And he said that he wants to

00:04:01.640 | come on the all in pod at some point. So we just need to

00:04:03.720 | schedule that. And by the way, we did this for let's not

00:04:07.680 | forget, we did this for RFK, Jr. Yeah, he appeared on the pod, we

00:04:10.960 | did a fundraiser for him. We did it for vague Ramaswamy came on

00:04:14.600 | the pod, we did a fundraiser for him. We did it for Dean Phillips.

00:04:17.440 | Yeah, that's right.

00:04:18.840 | And Chris Christie came on, although I don't think we

00:04:22.680 | technically did a fundraiser, but we would have. And we've

00:04:26.320 | asked President Biden, and we have not heard back. And when we

00:04:29.720 | say we, sorry, let me just ask, parse that out. So first of all,

00:04:33.320 | who's we and Chamath, would you host a fundraiser for Biden as

00:04:35.960 | well as Trump?

00:04:36.800 | Absolutely. Look, here's the thing. I am an a political

00:04:40.480 | person who has to make a difficult decision every four

00:04:43.320 | years. And I think most of us are like that. I don't think

00:04:46.320 | it's so easy to wake up in the morning and say, Oh, I'm clearly

00:04:49.720 | a Republican, or I'm clearly a Democrat, there's parts of both

00:04:53.280 | sides that appeal to me. And so you have to make these reason

00:04:56.680 | decisions. And then that gets even more complicated, right. So

00:05:00.480 | the most important thing for me is get as many people on in a

00:05:04.960 | position to tell their version of the truth, so that you can

00:05:09.080 | see an unfiltered version of that truth and decide for

00:05:12.000 | yourself. So I was really blown away when I heard Dean Phillips,

00:05:17.640 | and Bobby and I thought there's parts of both of those platforms

00:05:21.400 | that I agree with, there's parts that I disagree. And the same

00:05:23.840 | thing happened when I sat down with Vivek, I thought that I

00:05:26.200 | wouldn't agree with much I ended up agreeing with a lot. There's

00:05:29.320 | a lot of stuff that Trump in hindsight, again, as I've said

00:05:31.640 | before, that he did, which was really helpful to America. And

00:05:35.480 | one big thing, which had he done, frankly, sets up our

00:05:39.520 | children, which is these hundred year bonds and defraying the

00:05:42.840 | cost of all of this indebtedness far out into the

00:05:45.520 | future. So there's many things. And I think there's things that

00:05:49.160 | Biden has done that I think we'll look back and say, those

00:05:51.520 | were good things that he did. And then there are things in the

00:05:53.520 | future, or today that I think that we could disagree with as

00:05:56.240 | well. So the point is, I would like this place to be a place

00:06:02.280 | where impartiality rules where we can be on all sides of an

00:06:06.600 | issue and just decide what makes the most sense after looking at

00:06:09.760 | the facts. And I would like four years from now, every major

00:06:13.720 | political candidate for president to look at all in as

00:06:16.960 | the first place. And I think if we can earn that trust and have

00:06:20.760 | the integrity to allow all sides to tell a fair story, that is

00:06:24.440 | going to be a really powerful thing, and an artifact to leave

00:06:27.520 | behind for people.

00:06:28.360 | Well, in fact, RFK believes that we shot him out of a cannon is I

00:06:32.560 | think what he said or something and that that we got the sort of

00:06:35.520 | candidacy going Vivek, I think also kind of debuted here in a

00:06:38.920 | major way. To be clear, all in isn't hosting the fundraiser

00:06:41.760 | sacks you and Chamath are I'm not donating, I'm not going

00:06:45.960 | freebird. You're not donating. I don't know if you're going or

00:06:48.360 | not. Did you tell me you're not going? You're not donating or

00:06:51.000 | going? Got it. Okay, you wave to Sam. And so I don't know what

00:06:56.160 | donates up local Canada's individual choice that each

00:06:59.120 | person's got to decide if they want to do it. Right? Americans,

00:07:02.360 | we can do that. Yeah, if you're willing to open your pocketbook,

00:07:05.320 | which I know Jason's on something that you're inclined

00:07:07.280 | to do very often. I mean, I, I don't, I'm not big into

00:07:10.760 | politics. And the idea of giving money to politicians to me, not

00:07:14.520 | my thing. You know, I have I'd rather invest in the next

00:07:16.480 | startup, to be totally honest, if I'm going to put 50k towards

00:07:18.880 | something or God forbid 250k. For me, I'll put that in a

00:07:22.200 | startup. That's what I like to do. But you know, everybody's

00:07:24.720 | different. And, you know, for the people who are asking me to

00:07:27.480 | not be friends with sacks anymore, I'm going to be friends

00:07:30.320 | with sacks forever. We love each other besties, and he can have a

00:07:34.080 | different opinion than me. I'm getting totally absolutely

00:07:37.280 | crucified, that I'm supporting Trump. And how could I be

00:07:40.320 | friends with sex? Go yourself, sex is my friend, we can have a

00:07:43.360 | difference of opinion on some topics. Good for you to deal

00:07:46.200 | with that is good. Learn something. Sorry. Good for you.

00:07:49.560 | Sorry, I'll just say I've heard the same thing. And I told

00:07:52.200 | friends and others that have reached out. Why are you

00:07:55.800 | associating yourself with people that are doing a fundraiser for

00:07:58.880 | Trump? And I said exactly because I think it's really

00:08:02.040 | important that people can have different political interests,

00:08:06.160 | different points of view, different beliefs, and still be

00:08:09.360 | friends and still have a conversation. If we can model

00:08:12.240 | that in any way, I think it moves the needle because this

00:08:15.840 | whole thing where you only speak with only hang out with only

00:08:18.760 | talked to only have dinner with people that you agree with, I

00:08:21.440 | think is exactly what got us in the mess that we're in today.

00:08:24.120 | People need to have a broader perspective. So well said, and

00:08:27.680 | I said, and I'll support you guys with whatever, in terms of

00:08:31.120 | like being your friends, I'm not going to ever judge you guys in

00:08:33.440 | terms of what you believe in or choose to do. We've said this

00:08:36.440 | before. But you know, in the end, what do you have, you have

00:08:39.920 | your family, you have your children, you have your friends,

00:08:43.240 | and hopefully you have work that gives you some purpose. And in

00:08:46.120 | all of that, if there are random people that are judging you for

00:08:49.240 | one thing, they'll eventually judge you for another thing. And

00:08:52.000 | that is not a path to any sort of contentment. I've donated to

00:08:55.400 | Bobby Kennedy, I've donated to the Democrats massively, and

00:08:59.760 | I'll donate to Donald Trump. And if there's an opportunity to

00:09:03.720 | talk to President Biden, and really understand where he's at,

00:09:07.520 | I donate to him as well. And so the point is that I would like

00:09:11.760 | to be an organizing principle. And I would like to replace

00:09:17.120 | today, the places that I don't trust to organize, and give

00:09:22.040 | unfiltered access to knowledge. And those things are the

00:09:24.360 | mainstream media. And so I'm willing to put my resources

00:09:27.360 | behind being that organizing principle. And I think having a

00:09:30.600 | broad cross section of friends who have different political

00:09:33.120 | beliefs, is actually a useful thing for a lot of these

00:09:36.000 | candidates. Because as it turns out, most people are sort of in

00:09:39.800 | the middle. And most people in any given election can be

00:09:43.800 | persuaded one way or the other. So the most important thing that

00:09:46.440 | we could do is get all of them, give all of them an opportunity

00:09:50.320 | to really tell an unfiltered version of their truth, and then

00:09:54.240 | let the chips fall where they may, that is the right thing to

00:09:56.880 | do for America. That's what democracy means. So this kind of

00:09:59.920 | like cajoling and bullying, in either side, I find really

00:10:03.920 | distasteful. And I find very immature.

00:10:06.040 | Yeah, it's not gonna work.

00:10:07.880 | What's amazing is, I mean, I really haven't gotten any

00:10:10.640 | blowback. You know, there was a question about people asked me,

00:10:13.680 | have you gotten blowback from this thing? And no, not really.

00:10:16.720 | I mean, other than the reporter knocking on my door and that

00:10:19.000 | kind of stuff, but people really same. It hasn't really created

00:10:23.400 | blowback. And I think you guys are getting more blowback. And

00:10:26.160 | that's an indication of sort of the cowardly response to it,

00:10:30.280 | which is, you know, it's like a cancellation tactic, we're going

00:10:33.560 | to try and like, go behind your back and ostracize you instead

00:10:37.320 | of even telling you to your face what you think. And I think the

00:10:41.200 | reason why they're doing that is because quite frankly, there's a

00:10:43.440 | lot of preference falsification going on in Silicon Valley. I

00:10:46.760 | know there's a lot of people in Silicon Valley.

00:10:49.240 | Who we know, because we know who's coming.

00:10:53.400 | You have a list of people.

00:10:54.520 | Nobody is excited about, okay, nobody's excited about Biden

00:10:59.400 | right now. So the only question is, do they hold their nose and

00:11:02.560 | vote for him? Or do they vote for Trump? Or do they vote for

00:11:04.960 | Bobby Kennedy? But there's a lot of people who I do think support

00:11:09.640 | Trump. And look, we've a b tested this, right? It'd be

00:11:12.800 | different if we didn't have four years of Biden, four years of

00:11:15.720 | Trump, there's a lot of people who can look back and say that

00:11:18.880 | the AB test we ran indicates Trump. So I know there's going

00:11:22.720 | to be a lot of people who support Trump, but they don't

00:11:24.760 | want to admit it. And I think that we have this event is going

00:11:28.040 | to break the ice on that. And maybe it'll create a preference

00:11:30.600 | cascade, where all of a sudden it becomes acceptable to

00:11:34.120 | acknowledge the truth. And which is a lot of people support

00:11:37.640 | Trump. And it's not just this, it's also Steve Schwarzman came

00:11:40.600 | out, I think Bill Ackman's on the edge of coming out for

00:11:43.960 | Trump. So there's a lot of people who are now like

00:11:47.080 | flipping. And I think it could really start to cascade on

00:11:50.240 | itself. I think the thing that hasn't happened yet is we

00:11:53.240 | haven't actually now started to talk about the contours of a

00:11:57.000 | handful of policy things where there is some deep diversion

00:12:01.400 | where these candidates are diverging from each other. And I

00:12:05.360 | think that that's going to be really interesting to see how

00:12:08.400 | much people value that differentiation. I'll give you

00:12:11.680 | an example, which is President Trump in the last few weeks has

00:12:15.600 | become incredibly pro crypto. Now, the contours of that, I

00:12:20.600 | think we need to define right. But the question is, is a pro

00:12:24.000 | crypto environment, especially in a world where we think that

00:12:27.520 | there's just going to be continued dollar debasement, an

00:12:30.560 | important issue, an unimportant issue, or a thing that is a

00:12:35.280 | small issue today, but that will be critical for us in 20 and 30

00:12:39.320 | years to get right. That's an example. And there's a handful

00:12:42.920 | of these other things that I think that now we have a chance

00:12:45.280 | to really double click on, where there really is some

00:12:47.880 | differentiation amongst the three presidential candidates.

00:12:50.920 | And I think that's healthy as well. And so it's important,

00:12:53.360 | again, get their specific thoughts on the record, so that

00:12:57.280 | we can really figure this out. And I think that over these next

00:13:00.720 | few months, I think it's going to be important to do that. So I

00:13:04.400 | hope President Biden also comes on the pot quite honestly, and

00:13:07.080 | come on the allows us to ask him the hard questions. And I hope

00:13:12.160 | Bobby comes back on actually, and I think Bobby will if we ask

00:13:14.600 | him just to tighten up where he's at now, a few months.

00:13:18.400 | But yeah, there's definitely a lot of great follow up

00:13:20.080 | questions. I would love to interview Trump. I'll ask him

00:13:22.160 | more questions. I'll respect him as President 45. And as a

00:13:25.240 | candidate. So for people who like, are like you have Trump

00:13:27.960 | derangement syndrome, like, that's just like a childish

00:13:31.160 | thing to say, I disagree with his policies. I'll ask him

00:13:33.680 | questions. Hey, why don't you support EVs? Like, that's a

00:13:36.680 | valid question to ask him? Why is he anti EV? He said all these

00:13:39.560 | crazy things about EVs. And then apparently, he's courting you on

00:13:42.200 | privately. I don't know if that's true or not. But you

00:13:44.920 | know, there's there's hard questions, and I'm sure he'll

00:13:46.760 | answer them. And he's more than capable of doing

00:13:49.360 | I'm excited for me. I'm really excited for President Trump to

00:13:52.040 | come on the podcast.

00:13:52.840 | And for me, I'll be totally honest. I think the Democrats

00:13:56.640 | have to wake up for a second and just like take the temperature

00:13:59.960 | of the room, like read the room, Democrats, you have put up a

00:14:03.240 | candidate that nobody wants his policies on the border and some

00:14:06.920 | other issues are not, you know, in sync with the majority of the

00:14:10.440 | country. At some point, the Democrats just have to take a

00:14:13.200 | deep look in the mirror. James Carville is doing a bunch of

00:14:15.920 | we're doing and say, we feel that a bad candidate who's too

00:14:18.560 | old, and people don't believe will stand up to scrutiny of

00:14:22.600 | like, say, being on the all in pot for two hours, or in the

00:14:25.360 | debates, or with a hostile interview, or any of those

00:14:28.400 | possibilities. And so I think if that's the case, we really need

00:14:33.040 | to have the Democrats think deeply about maybe fielding a

00:14:37.280 | different candidate. And I believe that's what's going to

00:14:38.880 | happen in the next 30 to 60 days. So I'm predicting this to

00:14:41.840 | be a switcheroo. 100% I mean, if you just really think there's a

00:14:46.040 | switch, 100% will be a switcheroo. Who's the

00:14:48.880 | switcheroo? I have no idea. Could be Gavin, it could be

00:14:51.160 | anybody, anything's possible. I think Trump's going to demolish

00:14:53.800 | him in the debate. I think he'll sink to 30% in the polls. And

00:14:58.920 | then the Republicans are going to find out I'm sorry, the

00:15:01.040 | Democrats will find a way to give him a graceful out and then

00:15:03.320 | they'll field somebody else. When's the first debate? June

00:15:06.680 | 17. I respond to that. I saw your tweet, basically saying

00:15:09.640 | something very similar, that Democrats need to wake up and,

00:15:12.920 | you know, recognize the situation they're in. I think

00:15:16.280 | this is a case of once you've made your bed, you have to

00:15:19.640 | sleep in it. Look, the Democrats have set the table pursuing

00:15:24.640 | certain policies for the last three and a half years. We've

00:15:27.520 | had an open border, we had so much spending that it fed into

00:15:31.400 | this inflation with jacked up interest rates. We had Ukraine

00:15:35.640 | become the central obsession of focus of our politics, which

00:15:39.480 | blew up and Biden's face with the whole summer counter

00:15:42.640 | offensive. I mean, I could go on you have the hostility to

00:15:46.000 | crypto, which they're now trying to desperately backpedal on but

00:15:48.680 | you had three years of Elizabeth Warren and Gensler basically

00:15:52.400 | making crypto the enemy. And now all of a sudden, we're at first

00:15:55.720 | and go at that like 10 yard line. And you're all of a sudden

00:15:57.920 | saying, well, just read the room and make all these changes. You

00:16:01.200 | can't. You know, I don't think people are gonna be fooled by

00:16:04.000 | that. We've a b tested this thing. We've had three and a

00:16:07.600 | half years of Biden, four years of Trump. Who do you like

00:16:10.680 | better? And we're what how many months are we from pulling the

00:16:14.880 | lever? Five months?

00:16:16.600 | Never too late. I'm telling him to do it. Don't take sacks as

00:16:20.120 | advice. He is a hardcore person who wants to win desperately

00:16:23.320 | take Jay cows advice field another candidate. The worst

00:16:26.440 | thing the Republicans could ever deal with is a great candidate

00:16:30.320 | who can speak and who's nimble on their feet because I think

00:16:33.520 | people are looking for a choice that's not these two

00:16:35.560 | individuals. I'm not going to say I'm anti Trump. I'm not

00:16:38.480 | gonna say I'm anti why don't you support Bobby Kennedy, then? I

00:16:41.240 | don't think he's gonna have the platform behind him to get

00:16:44.400 | enough votes. I think the Democrats need to immediately

00:16:46.880 | this month in June, do the switcheroo. And if they do, I

00:16:50.800 | think they went in the lens. They had their chance. They had

00:16:53.160 | their chance. They could have gone for Bobby. They drove Bobby

00:16:56.360 | out of the party. That's not your only reason. You didn't

00:16:59.320 | start as an independent. He started I know by his last

00:17:01.920 | name, Democrat, Democrat. You got it. Phillips. Yeah, Dean

00:17:05.640 | Phillips took the chance. Yeah. And of course, he was pushed

00:17:08.400 | out, not of the party, but basically ostracized. They had

00:17:11.920 | their chance.

00:17:12.600 | I think you know, if I want to be a strategist, this is just a

00:17:16.040 | conspiracy theory. I don't want to go to like, tinfoil hat

00:17:18.400 | corner. I think the Democrats as cynical as it sounds, we're

00:17:21.440 | waiting to see what happens with this Trump trials conviction

00:17:24.640 | what you call lawfare, what other people call fair use of

00:17:27.280 | the law. And then they are going to see how he does in the

00:17:30.800 | debates. That's why they moved the debate up in June. And I

00:17:33.240 | think they know to pull the plug on this if it gets too far gone.

00:17:37.600 | And they have the ability to do that. Because all he's got to

00:17:39.560 | say is, you know what, I'm feeling old. And I want us to

00:17:44.160 | win. And I'm going to slot somebody else in. But listen,

00:17:46.160 | let's go get to this.

00:17:48.080 | Yeah, let me translate what you just said, which is the

00:17:50.520 | Democrats hope to put Trump in jail using lawfare. And when

00:17:53.640 | that fails, they realize that they're going to lose the

00:17:55.840 | election to him. And they've got a big problem. So they're going

00:17:58.040 | to try some desperate strategy to find a new candidate, but

00:18:00.320 | it's way too late for that.

00:18:01.320 | I think precisely.

00:18:02.800 | Thank you for repeating. And I think the only disagreement we

00:18:08.120 | might have there is, I would agree like there's lawfare in

00:18:10.840 | two of the cases. And I think two of the cases, I think are

00:18:13.760 | should be pursued. But you know, we can intelligent people, as we

00:18:17.480 | said at the start of this can agree to disagree about it. And

00:18:20.240 | I think you should all take if you're a listener says podcast,

00:18:22.920 | you're smart. If you're here, you're smart. You're not

00:18:25.280 | listening to two hour podcasts. With us going this deep on

00:18:28.720 | issues if you're not a brilliant, smart, and attractive

00:18:31.640 | individual. So let's get to the docket. President. Yes, that's

00:18:36.200 | what I just said. He heard brilliant and attractive and

00:18:38.400 | was here. All right, listen, I, I hate to go into another

00:18:43.000 | controversial topic. But the four of us were all on fire

00:18:47.520 | about this. Apparently, the COVID-19 investigation is

00:18:52.240 | leaning towards a massive cover up. There's a subcommittee

00:18:56.160 | going on right now, the world's not paying attention to

00:18:58.680 | this. But I think some savvy people are, especially over on

00:19:02.080 | x is a lot of great journalists who are doing incredible

00:19:05.360 | investigative work. Let me just catch everybody up in the

00:19:07.880 | audience real quick here and get the best is involved. Over the

00:19:10.320 | past year and a half, how subcommittee has been focused on

00:19:13.360 | the origins of COVID-19. And they've been investigating the

00:19:16.840 | NIH is ties with gain of function research in Wuhan. The

00:19:20.760 | subcommittee was painted early on. It's like this is angry

00:19:23.560 | Republicans, this is about mask mandates, it was like highly

00:19:26.400 | politicized, but it's actually turned out to be very effective

00:19:29.520 | bipartisan investigation, we'll get on, we'll get in on that in

00:19:33.680 | a minute. But so far, most of the investigation is focused on

00:19:37.480 | nailing down this timeline of communication between NIH

00:19:40.360 | officials, and an organization called Eco Health Alliance. This

00:19:44.320 | is a nonprofit that's focused on infectious disease research. Now,

00:19:48.400 | these committee videos online will pay you play on in a

00:19:51.440 | moment. But through funding in the NIH, the Eco Health

00:19:55.440 | organization was awarded research grants to various labs.

00:19:58.320 | This included the Wuhan Institute of virology, the

00:20:01.920 | infamous one, Eco Health violated terms of its grants by

00:20:05.600 | failing to report that gain of function experiments were being

00:20:09.240 | conducted in Wuhan, Eco Health was supposed to report any

00:20:12.720 | experiment that exhibited characteristics leading it to

00:20:14.800 | being 10 times more infectious. But when that happened, it failed

00:20:18.520 | to disclose this research to the NIH. And on May 17, a deputy

00:20:22.120 | director of the NIH acknowledge that the agency funded gain of

00:20:25.680 | function research in Wuhan via Eco Health. This is the key

00:20:30.240 | because Fauci initially denied this during his 2021. Senate

00:20:35.080 | hearing, Fauci said, quote, I totally resent the lie you are

00:20:38.000 | now propagating in response to questions from Rand Paul about

00:20:40.720 | the lab leak theory. So Fauci either didn't know or relied

00:20:44.000 | under oath. Let me pause there for a second. There's a lot more

00:20:47.080 | to the story. But when you hear this sort of setup, Friedberg,

00:20:51.160 | our sultan of science, in this initial setup, what rings

00:20:55.760 | concerning to you true to you, and then we'll go on and play

00:20:58.800 | some clips of this testimony, which is pretty wild.

00:21:01.360 | I don't think that pre emergence of the pandemic that there was

00:21:07.480 | nefarious motives.

00:21:09.120 | In other words, their funding of this was not done to create a

00:21:13.120 | pandemic. It might have been a mistake in hindsight. But

00:21:16.080 | yeah, for many years, particularly following the

00:21:18.840 | original SARS pandemic, there was a lot of conversations

00:21:22.320 | around how do we get in front of the next pandemic? How do we

00:21:25.200 | figure out what's coming? And how do we prepare for it? And

00:21:28.960 | there was a lot of research that was launched to try and resolve

00:21:32.960 | that key question. This is like the movie 12 monkeys. You guys

00:21:37.720 | ever see that movie? It's like, does the effort to try and stop

00:21:44.600 | the problem cause the problem? I think that for my point of view,

00:21:47.680 | there's a very high probability that there was some leak. That

00:21:53.320 | meant that the work that was going on to try and get in front

00:21:55.920 | of the next pandemic and understand what we could do to

00:21:57.840 | prepare ourselves and what vaccines can be developed and so

00:22:00.240 | on, actually led to the pandemic. So then when that

00:22:02.920 | happens, how do you respond when you're sitting in that seat?

00:22:05.280 | That's, that's the key question that I think this committee is

00:22:08.680 | uncovering. Do you think there was a cover up? Freeberg? What

00:22:11.000 | is your intuition on that? Yeah, I think that these guys

00:22:13.320 | definitely didn't want. I think what they were trying to do was

00:22:16.520 | prevent that from being the focal point and protect their

00:22:18.960 | own asses at the same time. Do you think they should go to jail?

00:22:21.760 | I don't know the extent of it yet. It'd be good to get more

00:22:24.800 | information from this. Yeah. So let me queue up those next

00:22:26.920 | details. Because I will say this guy that gave testimony last

00:22:29.600 | week, where he was like, deliberately changing the names

00:22:32.000 | of people in the email, Anderson, and he put the dollar

00:22:34.200 | sign, right, so that you couldn't find that email when

00:22:36.920 | you did a FOIA search. He knew what he was doing. He knew. I

00:22:40.680 | don't understand how you could say this wasn't nefarious. This

00:22:44.160 | whole thing was nefarious from top to bottom.

00:22:46.200 | Well, yeah, let me queue this up here, Saxon, then get your Why

00:22:48.960 | are you exonerating it? Hold on, let me queue it up. Right. So we

00:22:51.560 | started to see some consequences and accountability. Last week,

00:22:55.000 | the US Department of Health cut all funding to EcoHealth in

00:22:58.240 | response to the committee's investigation. They disbarred

00:23:00.640 | its president, Peter Daszak. Daszak, yeah. Daszak. And so we

00:23:05.760 | don't have direct evidence to be clear that the pandemic was the

00:23:08.320 | result of a lab leak. And, you know, just even saying the lab

00:23:13.680 | leak here, we would have gotten this.

00:23:15.240 | The fear and cleavage site makes it clear that this was a lab

00:23:19.200 | leak. That's not a naturally occurring virus. The fear and

00:23:23.480 | cleavage sites were engineered.

00:23:25.240 | Let's go to that in just one second. And thankfully, this

00:23:28.480 | isn't going to get our YouTube channel shut down because we

00:23:31.360 | have freedom of speech back a little bit. But this is where it

00:23:34.920 | gets really interesting. Emails were written as EcoHealth with a

00:23:40.480 | tilde, that's that little squiggly line, instead of an O.

00:23:43.760 | And they would spell Anderson with a dollar sign in the E.

00:23:48.880 | Christian Anderson, in this example, is a biologist who was

00:23:52.400 | reportedly awarded 9 million in grants from the NIH two months

00:23:54.960 | after publishing a paper claiming didn't COVID did not

00:23:57.480 | come from a lab. And so let's get to some of these clips.

00:24:01.120 | Here's a clip of Fauci's former top advisor, David Morin's

00:24:05.320 | getting grilled in the hearing. And I'll play two clips, and

00:24:08.600 | then I'll give it to you.

00:24:09.800 | On October 25, 2021, another scientist wrote, quote, David is

00:24:13.800 | concerned about the privacy of text and other messages from his

00:24:17.120 | cell phone to you and me because he has been using a government

00:24:20.160 | phone. This came from Tony, end quote. Sir, did you ever have any

00:24:24.240 | conversations with Dr. Fauci regarding using personal phone

00:24:28.040 | or email to communicate with Dr. Dasik?

00:24:30.600 | I don't remember it. It's possible. You know, I probably

00:24:33.720 | wouldn't have remembered and I don't remember it.

00:24:35.320 | On January 18, you testified that you did not have any

00:24:39.480 | conversations with Dr. Fauci regarding EcoHealth. On October

00:24:43.120 | 25, 2021, you wrote, quote, Peter, from Tony's numerous

00:24:48.920 | recent comments to me, they're trying to protect you, end

00:24:52.880 | quote. You meaning EcoHealth and Dr. Dasik. Dr. Morin, did you

00:24:58.400 | ever have any conversations with Dr. Fauci regarding EcoHealth?

00:25:02.480 | Well, the ones you just mentioned, I don't have any

00:25:04.440 | recollection of that.

00:25:05.360 | No recollection.

00:25:06.280 | No recollection. No.

00:25:08.600 | All right, so we're on the no recollection train. And then

00:25:11.000 | I'll give this final clip here. This is unbelievable, Sachs.

00:25:15.320 | Currently, there's a FOIA leader, lady, Freedom of

00:25:18.080 | Information Act lady, working at NIH to train and help and mentor

00:25:23.480 | people on how to avoid having their communications. These are

00:25:28.600 | people who we work who work for us. And she's the FOIA lady at

00:25:33.320 | NIH. Play the clip, Nick.

00:25:35.200 | And as you've said, you previously testified that you

00:25:38.080 | did not delete any federal records. But on February 24,

00:25:41.520 | 2021, you wrote, quote, I learned from our FOIA lady here

00:25:45.040 | how to make emails disappear after I'm FOIA'd, but before the

00:25:48.200 | search starts. So I think we are all safe. Plus, I deleted most

00:25:52.240 | of those earlier emails after sending them to Gmail, end

00:25:55.360 | quote. And the next day on February 25, 2021, you wrote,

00:25:58.560 | quote, but I learned the tricks last year from an old friend,

00:26:01.800 | Marge Moore, who heads our FOIA office and also hates FOIAs,

00:26:07.040 | end quote. Yes or no? Is Marge Moore the FOIA lady you're

00:26:10.320 | referring to?

00:26:11.320 | She was at the time. I believe she's retired since then.

00:26:14.680 | Did the NIH FOIA office instruct you on how to delete emails or

00:26:18.920 | avoid FOIA?

00:26:19.920 | No.

00:26:20.440 | All right, Sachs. There's your red meat. Smoking guns

00:26:23.400 | everywhere. What do you think?

00:26:24.280 | Please give me a couple of minutes to kind of lay out what

00:26:27.760 | happened here. Okay, so Fauci knew very early, as early as

00:26:33.560 | February 1 of 2020, that COVID came from a lab leak. The

00:26:37.480 | scientists said so. All they had to do was look under a

00:26:39.240 | microscope and see the furon cleavage site, which is not

00:26:42.920 | naturally occurring. It's something that was added,

00:26:46.080 | basically bioengineered to the virus in order to make it more

00:26:49.240 | transmissible in humans. So they knew right away that this

00:26:53.760 | somehow came from a lab leak. And Fauci and Collins said in

00:26:59.120 | emails that they were going to begin a brutal takedown in order

00:27:02.960 | to conceal this fundamental truth of the lab leak from the

00:27:05.640 | public. Now, why would Fauci need to conceal this? Because he

00:27:09.000 | had funded gain-of-function research programs via Peter

00:27:13.680 | Daszak and the EcoHealth Alliance to conduct, again,

00:27:17.120 | gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

00:27:20.680 | Moreover, Fauci was personally responsible for reversing an

00:27:24.600 | Obama-era decision to prohibit gain-of-function research

00:27:28.240 | because it was so risky. Fauci wrote op-eds justifying

00:27:33.320 | gain-of-function research. He wrote a paper in 2012, which was

00:27:36.640 | actually quite candid about the risks of gain-of-function. He

00:27:39.880 | describes the kind of lab leak that could occur in the type of

00:27:44.320 | virus that could escape from a lab because of gain-of-function.

00:27:48.960 | But then he says that's a risk worth taking. So this is

00:27:52.200 | somebody who funded the Wuhan lab. He funded gain-of-function

00:27:55.720 | research. He was personally responsible for lifting the ban

00:27:58.880 | on gain-of-function research. He had a lot of reasons to want to

00:28:02.560 | hide the fact that COVID was engineered in a lab and was lab

00:28:07.840 | leak. And so we know that even before this conspiracy to

00:28:12.040 | basically defraud the FOIA request, that Fauci had done

00:28:15.440 | things like organize that letter to the Lancet, which smeared and

00:28:19.400 | demonized scientists who were trying to tell the truth, saying

00:28:22.800 | that the so-called zoological theory was nonsense, this had to

00:28:26.280 | be from a lab. He was doing things like this. And now we

00:28:29.320 | have this added piece, which is this longtime colleague of

00:28:33.440 | Fauci and Collins at NIH, Dr. David Morens, developed a

00:28:37.760 | strategy for evading FOIA requests that would expose the

00:28:40.600 | truth. He did this by deleting government emails, which is a

00:28:43.400 | crime, by using private email to conduct government business,

00:28:46.520 | which is also a crime, and then strategically misspelling names

00:28:49.640 | and titles to frustrate the FOIA searches. And then the craziest

00:28:54.000 | part is that Morens foolishly detailed his schemes in emails

00:28:58.760 | that Fauci would have seen that Fauci was on the distribution

00:29:01.840 | list stuff. So he has no plausible deniability.

00:29:04.360 | It's literally like they're like, here's how we can avoid

00:29:06.560 | getting caught in an email.

00:29:08.800 | You have to see the FOIA piece within the overall picture here,

00:29:13.720 | which is Fauci from the get go was lying about the origins of

00:29:20.440 | COVID in order to cover up his role in funding this type of

00:29:25.520 | research. Yes. And there was a comprehensive effort by people

00:29:29.920 | at NIH, likely at Fauci's direction, to again, not just

00:29:34.960 | cover this up, but to smear scientists

00:29:37.760 | who were on the offensive, in addition to trying to cover

00:29:40.800 | their, their asses.

00:29:41.960 | People like Jay Bhattacharya, who then got censored and banned

00:29:45.680 | on social media.

00:29:46.560 | By the way, who is a Stanford professor was banned for

00:29:51.280 | speaking up Chamath, let's zoom out here and start thinking

00:29:54.160 | strategy and theories of what's going on here. I have my own,

00:29:58.640 | but I'm curious to hear yours first as we go around the horn

00:30:00.880 | here. What's your take on this?

00:30:02.080 | I would like to make four points, I think that kind of

00:30:05.320 | summarize my view of this, I think what happened here needs a

00:30:09.720 | really clear accounting, because the implications are far greater

00:30:15.880 | than I think people realize. And I think why maybe the four of us

00:30:18.960 | have have always been tugging on this little thread is because

00:30:22.560 | each of us instinctively understood that. So the first is,

00:30:26.960 | if you just look at the macro economic consequences of what

00:30:31.840 | COVID did, and our reaction, we broke the seal of having

00:30:36.760 | absolutely no accountability on massive spending, right? So there

00:30:41.080 | are subsidies, there are kickbacks, there are government

00:30:43.720 | programs that now number in the trillions of dollars a year

00:30:46.760 | incremental to what we were going to spend if things were

00:30:50.960 | the status quo. And the problem is that in Freiburg has talked

00:30:54.760 | about this really eloquently in the past, it's creating a

00:30:56.920 | massive debt issue that us and our children and our

00:30:59.840 | grandchildren will have to deal with. If we had responded to

00:31:03.320 | this pandemic differently, those issues would not have occurred.

00:31:06.720 | If we had just kept the economy open, because we understood what

00:31:11.120 | was going on. We would not have reacted the way that we did. And

00:31:15.480 | we would not have nearly as much debt as we had. And we would not

00:31:18.200 | have made it okay for politicians to spend trillions

00:31:21.080 | of dollars. That is a direct consequence of our reaction to

00:31:25.080 | COVID, not COVID itself. The second is we caused billions of

00:31:29.720 | people all around the world to take immaturely tested drugs.

00:31:33.800 | They were called vaccines, we found out that they were modestly

00:31:38.560 | effective at best. And then some of them were designed in some

00:31:42.600 | ways to manipulate our DNA. And we just don't know what the

00:31:45.600 | long term impacts will be. We see some small issues of

00:31:48.800 | myocarditis, we see other issues of all cause mortality. But the

00:31:53.840 | point is, we just don't know. And that would not have happened

00:31:57.200 | had we not rushed to force people to stand in the line and

00:32:01.040 | get a jab in order to get back to their normal life. That was a

00:32:03.840 | direct consequence, not of COVID. But of a reaction. The

00:32:08.520 | third is what we're realizing right now is that we had this

00:32:12.840 | power drunk apparatchik. And this is similar to the quote

00:32:17.680 | that Mike Pompeo made, when he took over the CIA. What he found

00:32:23.880 | and he said this after when he left was, there were people on

00:32:27.600 | the top floor of the CIA building, the seventh floor of

00:32:30.440 | the Pentagon, that fundamentally believed that it wasn't the

00:32:34.680 | Democrats nor the Republicans that ran the country, but it was

00:32:37.400 | them. And I see a similar level of arrogance here, which is this

00:32:42.400 | belief that they know better. And so what they did was they

00:32:47.160 | committed the greatest sin, which is where the cover up is

00:32:50.760 | way greater than the crime. And they created a setup where all

00:32:55.600 | of these things were amplified by their prestige, their

00:33:00.480 | perceived scientific knowledge. But what they were really doing

00:33:04.160 | was keeping critical information to themselves, and then trying

00:33:07.720 | to cover it up, Jason, that is so unacceptable when you think

00:33:11.360 | of the broad consequences of what happened. And that's what

00:33:13.440 | needs to get documented. And I do think there needs to be some

00:33:16.960 | form of accountability for that.

00:33:19.120 | I think as well said, and you know, just looking at it, I

00:33:22.000 | think we are now at the part point of this conversation and

00:33:25.480 | investigation, we can say this is not a bipartisan, this is an

00:33:27.760 | issue. And everybody knew like, we had these conversations on

00:33:31.880 | this very podcast, the public knew something didn't seem right

00:33:34.920 | about this. And if you just think about this from first

00:33:37.200 | principles of what occurred here, just what occurred here.

00:33:40.920 | Freeberg, we funded gain of research to create these

00:33:47.320 | super viruses that what I think other people could just as

00:33:50.960 | equally call a bio weapon with the Chinese. Now, we're supposed

00:33:55.080 | to be arch rivals here were like these competitors. And then when

00:34:00.400 | it came out, and it leaked, and of course, I don't think it was

00:34:03.280 | released on purpose. When it came out, the people who work

00:34:08.360 | for us and we trust with our family safety, who funded this

00:34:12.760 | in order to save their own reputations to cover their

00:34:16.280 | asses, then lied about it. And then, like, as you said, sex,

00:34:20.240 | perfectly, they were on the offensive. These people were

00:34:24.720 | not elected by anybody. That's right. These people work for us.

00:34:28.640 | And they failed us. This is a crime against humanity of the

00:34:33.360 | greatest cause. People committed suicide, people died, because

00:34:38.360 | they had depression, our kids lost two years of school, this

00:34:42.280 | generation has lost their education. And now we have

00:34:45.920 | burdened them with billions, hundreds of billions of dollars

00:34:49.880 | in debt from this. This is trillions, trillions, trillions,

00:34:53.480 | 10s. This is a failure of leadership. It is a crime. And

00:34:58.640 | when people said prosecute Fauci, they were like, you're

00:35:01.360 | being hysterical. This is ridiculous. These people need to

00:35:04.320 | be prosecuted. If you hit this stuff, from a FOIA request, you

00:35:10.080 | need to go to jail. There needs to be accountability here. I

00:35:13.160 | think what they did to society, our children in the future, I

00:35:16.520 | am infuriated by this.

00:35:18.120 | Imagine what happened in the situation room or the equivalent

00:35:21.040 | wherever the President of the United States, all these world

00:35:24.400 | leaders were coalescing to try to make decisions in that

00:35:28.800 | period. They all looked at this quote unquote expert, they

00:35:32.200 | pointed at Fauci and said, lead us out. And so do we not think

00:35:36.960 | that at any point he was thinking, how do I do this in a

00:35:39.560 | way where I have no fingerprints? Clearly the answer

00:35:42.080 | is, in fact, he was leading from a position of how will I not

00:35:45.240 | have any fingerprints on this? And so do we did we get the best

00:35:49.120 | advice? on the margin? I think it's pretty fair to say we

00:35:52.800 | could not have gotten it because he was too conflicted. He was

00:35:55.880 | figuring out how to cover up what happened, as opposed to

00:35:59.280 | just own it and then help the world get out of it.

00:36:01.840 | Yeah, I mean, talk about like incinerating your entire career

00:36:05.800 | legacy. But putting that aside, the morality of covering this

00:36:10.320 | up. And, you know, so then you have to think trauma. And this

00:36:13.560 | is why I was like, what is the strategy? What goes through

00:36:15.800 | somebody's mind when they decide to do a cover up this level? Is

00:36:19.320 | it just fear of getting caught, and their lives being in their

00:36:23.120 | mind ruined, and they're going to do this incredible cover up?

00:36:25.880 | I actually think that they thought this would become a

00:36:29.680 | globally destabilizing moment between the United States and

00:36:33.320 | China. And that there could be revolutions. Now, I know that

00:36:37.600 | this is now sounding really conspiracy theory. But if you're

00:36:39.960 | sitting there, and you're like, what if the public finds out we

00:36:43.120 | created this, and their grandparents died from it, and

00:36:47.120 | their kids didn't go to school because there'll be riots in the

00:36:49.600 | street. But if enough time passes, maybe there's not riots

00:36:53.200 | in the street. Well, you know what, this is something that is

00:36:55.920 | just so abhorrent. That I mean, people need to really be held

00:37:00.620 | accountable. freeberg your thoughts. What would you guys do

00:37:03.240 | if you're sitting in a policymaker seat today? And

00:37:06.760 | you're being offered by scientists, this ability to go

00:37:10.320 | and figure out what the next big virus will be, and start to make

00:37:13.960 | plans for getting in front of it by understanding the biology of

00:37:16.880 | these viruses by seeing where they're going to evolve to, and

00:37:19.960 | by trying to get in front of the next pandemic so that we can

00:37:22.820 | protect the population? Do you guys support that sort of

00:37:26.800 | research? And what are the questions you ask? So let's, you

00:37:29.200 | know, rewind 15 years, pretend Fauci doesn't get to make those

00:37:32.340 | decisions. You guys are the policymakers. And folks say SARS

00:37:35.780 | just happened. We want to do this research. We want to figure

00:37:38.700 | out how to get free to do and how do you how do you answer

00:37:41.060 | that?

00:37:41.340 | There's a really simple. There's a really simple question

00:37:43.820 | of anybody who's watched any kind of science fiction or knows

00:37:46.300 | the history of this kind of research, which is don't do this

00:37:49.620 | in a population center. And what how will you prevent it from

00:37:52.980 | breaking out? Like, literally, that's job one, if you're going

00:37:56.380 | to, even if you're not going to, like, literally, every science

00:38:01.000 | fiction film, it's so it's like, put it on an island. And there's

00:38:04.060 | an island off Long Island where they keep these things. I forgot

00:38:06.960 | the name of it is Plum Island or something. We'll look it up.

00:38:09.560 | Yeah. And by the way, there, there are internal NIH emails

00:38:13.640 | that suggest that COVID leaked from a level two facility, they

00:38:17.560 | call it BSL two, which does not operate with the top level

00:38:21.920 | biohazard safeguards. So they knew the Wuhan lab was not at

00:38:25.300 | the level of safeguards that it should have been. But look, I

00:38:28.360 | would go deeper and say that why would you do this kind of

00:38:31.300 | research at all? I mean, you are deliberately manipulating viruses

00:38:35.360 | in order to make them transmissible in humans. This was

00:38:38.500 | a bat virus that was not transmissible to humans. It was

00:38:42.960 | bioengineered, they add the furin cleavage site to allow it

00:38:45.920 | to gain access to human cells.

00:38:47.640 | Yeah. So sex, I am going to push back because that is not

00:38:51.600 | conclusively true. What you're saying is something that some

00:38:54.560 | people have claimed, but there are other scientists, including

00:38:57.440 | papers published recently in the Lancet, and other like pretty

00:39:00.600 | reputable, like medical journals and research journals that

00:39:03.680 | indicate that the evolution seen in the fear include cleavage

00:39:06.560 | site can be traced back to an evolutionary origin, not

00:39:09.660 | necessarily to a human engineered origin. So I want to

00:39:11.900 | just make that clear that that is a possibility. Okay, I'm not

00:39:14.560 | dismissing it. But I'm not supporting the other side. I'm

00:39:16.800 | saying we have work to do to figure this out. Okay, to be

00:39:19.040 | clear.

00:39:19.400 | It's a possibility that's so remote. I mean, look, I heard

00:39:23.040 | Professor Jeffrey Sachs talking about this in a recent

00:39:25.380 | interview, and he went through the whole history. So there's

00:39:27.420 | like 200 of these coronaviruses in this like class or category.

00:39:32.200 | And there's not one furin cleavage site among any of them.

00:39:35.460 | So can you say that there's not a one?

00:39:38.240 | Yeah, it happened.

00:39:40.680 | It's a very, very, very low probability.

00:39:44.600 | Let me punch up your question for a bird. Because if you have

00:39:46.840 | your question is, what should you do? I want to ask you guys,

00:39:49.720 | what do you do? So like, forget about Oh, there's bad guys,

00:39:52.080 | Fauci is a bad guy, like, what do you do to protect the world

00:39:54.880 | against the next pandemic?

00:39:56.480 | Number one, you don't do this type of gain of function

00:39:59.160 | research. Number two, if you are going to do it, you don't do it

00:40:01.900 | at a level two facility like the Wuhan lab. Number three, when the

00:40:06.920 | virus leaks from the lab, you don't basically lie about and

00:40:10.760 | conduct a cover campaign that smears reputation of honest

00:40:14.280 | scientists. Number four, when you're hauled into the Oval

00:40:18.280 | Office in response to this once in a century pandemic, you don't

00:40:22.400 | pretend like you're America's doctor, and you have all the

00:40:25.560 | answers. And in fact, you're the guy who created this problem.

00:40:29.400 | You own it. There's an idea you own it. And you know what, like

00:40:33.840 | the question really embedded in your question freeberg, I think

00:40:37.440 | is, is gain or is there any argument to doing gain of

00:40:40.480 | function? If so, how? And then is there any reason to research,

00:40:44.720 | you know, the bat dung or whatever material they get it

00:40:47.800 | from, you know, from those caves and take it out of the caves? I

00:40:51.120 | could see the latter trim off of like, hey, this existed nature,

00:40:54.520 | you study it on an island somewhere far away from

00:40:57.120 | everybody with massive controls. The gain of function seems like

00:41:01.080 | it literally feels like the speech from Jurassic Park, like,

00:41:04.160 | I think it's not would you took place on an island for a reason.

00:41:09.080 | There were many scientists who are opposed to gain function

00:41:11.160 | research, they thought it was unduly risky and didn't have

00:41:13.520 | offsetting benefits. And that is exactly why Obama banned it very

00:41:17.520 | good decision. To me, this whole idea that we need to amplify

00:41:23.960 | these viruses in order to find out what would happen if this

00:41:27.680 | happened naturally is insane. You didn't have this during until

00:41:31.160 | you created it. Yes, this is not this is nuts.

00:41:34.840 | Greg, there are there are examples we know, I'll just

00:41:38.400 | point to two. Let's just say the attempted overthrow of the

00:41:42.000 | Ukrainian government in 2014. You can go back to Iran

00:41:46.360 | contrast yet another example. And you can add gain of function

00:41:49.480 | research now, which is again, I'll just go back to when there

00:41:54.160 | are these lifelong bureaucrats that believe they're above the

00:41:57.800 | law, that there's this sensation that they can pull the levers of

00:42:02.600 | power silently behind the scenes, because they know better.

00:42:06.400 | And then what they're doing, as you guys said, is they are

00:42:11.200 | controverting the desires of the people. So whether you like

00:42:15.120 | President Obama or not, he's duly elected by the people. And

00:42:18.440 | when he says this isn't allowed, it shouldn't be allowed. And

00:42:22.440 | when you instantiate chaos and wars and all of this other

00:42:27.080 | stuff, overthrows and all of these other places that then

00:42:29.680 | create all these long tail effects. They're not done with

00:42:34.120 | really America support, they're done by a small group of people

00:42:37.200 | who think they know better. And I think that we've created that

00:42:40.680 | kind of a problem that needs to get fixed. And so I think that

00:42:45.240 | there, this has to be an example where you can make them an

00:42:48.360 | example, because otherwise it will keep happening. And there

00:42:51.440 | are other parts of the American bureaucracy, where people are

00:42:55.320 | in charge of very critical and important decisions. And I

00:42:58.760 | suspect 99% of them are good, earnest, honest people doing the

00:43:03.520 | right thing for America. But it's just the law of large

00:43:06.960 | numbers, there will be one or two, and all it takes is one or

00:43:09.960 | two, who get drunk with that power. And so unless that

00:43:13.600 | there's a check and balance on that dynamic, we'll have more

00:43:17.320 | issues of this. And as the world gets more sophisticated, and we

00:43:21.440 | rely more on experts, I hate to say this, guys, but you have to

00:43:25.240 | be more skeptical of experts. As much as you think an expert is

00:43:29.120 | an expert, you have to fight the tendency of saying I'm going to

00:43:32.160 | abdicate all of my intellect onto you and you decide, yeah, I

00:43:37.280 | think you have to find a way of just gut checking. And SAC said

00:43:40.960 | this critical thing. If I was the President of the United

00:43:43.600 | States in a pandemic, I didn't need the COVID to teach me this

00:43:47.920 | example. But if I'm trying to solve a very technical and hard

00:43:51.760 | engineering problem, what I always do is I bring a cross

00:43:55.280 | section of people in a room. Typically, some of them have to

00:43:59.200 | have disagreeing opinions, and I make them intellectually fight

00:44:03.040 | it out. And my job is to observe. And in that I apply my

00:44:07.680 | judgment. I'm not nearly as smart as them. I'm not nearly

00:44:10.400 | technically as trained as them. But that is a process that

00:44:13.440 | works. And I'm just questioning, it couldn't have happened here.

00:44:16.320 | Because as SAC said, if you basically bury the reputations

00:44:20.160 | of the folks that are pushing back, you could never bring them

00:44:22.880 | inside the room in the oval and have a conversation with them

00:44:25.920 | and say, Hey, Jay Bhattacharya, give us the red team version of

00:44:29.920 | what you think is happening. Yeah. And that is a real

00:44:32.800 | argument, steel man, the opposite side.

00:44:34.800 | Let me build on a point Chamath made, which is, I think we have

00:44:38.880 | to ask the question, what type of government do we really have?

00:44:41.440 | You know, we call ourselves a democracy, but are you a

00:44:45.120 | democracy when the elected leaders come and go, and the

00:44:49.280 | really powerful bureaucrats running the government running

00:44:52.000 | these agencies stay for decades and decades. And if the

00:44:55.600 | president disagrees with their policy, they can just wait them

00:44:58.320 | out. Fauci wanted to do gain of function research, maybe, by the

00:45:02.640 | way, at the behest of God, we don't know could have been a

00:45:04.880 | bio weapon or bio defense program. There's a lot more to

00:45:08.160 | this that we don't even know about yet. In any event, it's

00:45:11.200 | clear he was passionately committed to funding gain of

00:45:14.640 | function research. He just waited for his opportunity and

00:45:17.840 | implemented as well. Victoria Nuland in the State Department,

00:45:21.760 | passionately committed to basically bringing Ukraine into

00:45:24.800 | NATO, and using that to essentially provoke a regime

00:45:29.280 | change operation in Russia. Again, she just had to wait for

00:45:33.120 | her opportunity to basically keep pushing these policies for

00:45:36.240 | decades. These are the people who are really running the

00:45:38.800 | government. How would you change it? We have to turn these

00:45:42.080 | things over these organizations or get rid of them.

00:45:44.080 | We talk about term limits for politicians, maybe we actually

00:45:46.480 | need to turn the limits for the administrative apparatchik that

00:45:49.680 | runs all these critical organizations.

00:45:51.840 | Right. It's called the deep state, right? You ever hear the

00:45:54.240 | expression deep state sounds conspiratorial. It's not, it's

00:45:56.880 | just the permanent bureaucracy. We elect a president, but but

00:46:00.560 | how many people does the President actually appoint a

00:46:02.720 | couple 100? You're 99.9% of the people running the government

00:46:08.080 | are there permanently.

00:46:09.120 | Well, and then I'll just say here, I want to give a shout out

00:46:11.520 | to the journalists, Catherine bond and Catherine bond and

00:46:15.440 | Emily comp, I know that people also have no faith in

00:46:18.480 | journalists. These are two journalists, I think you could

00:46:20.240 | have tremendous faith in and we're going to win Pulitzer's

00:46:22.880 | because they've been doggedly pursuing this. And you have to

00:46:25.040 | wonder why this is not the top story on the news networks and

00:46:30.000 | why this isn't the head of, you know, the New York Times or the

00:46:33.360 | Washington Post, like there needs to be much more coverage

00:46:35.200 | of what's going on here. I don't understand.

00:46:36.800 | Yeah, because the Trump takes every headline.

00:46:40.400 | Yeah. I don't think it has anything to do with Trump. I

00:46:42.480 | think it's got everything to do with the fact that the New York

00:46:44.240 | Times was covering for Fauci. Fauci has been there. Fauci has

00:46:48.480 | been there for decades. He is a major source of the New York

00:46:51.840 | Times, just like he was a major funder of grant programs, right.

00:46:55.200 | So there's a lot of people who have developed a dependency on

00:46:59.360 | Fauci. I mean,

00:47:00.240 | for information, you think access journalism is what's

00:47:02.560 | going on here. He gave them access.

00:47:03.840 | There's no question. Times was covering for this. The New York

00:47:08.080 | Times definitely promoted the idea that anyone pushing the

00:47:11.280 | lab leak theory was somehow conspiracy theorist or not.

00:47:15.200 | And you have to lay on top of all this acts. It's a political

00:47:18.480 | environment.

00:47:18.880 | They were pushing that whole crazy wet market theory.

00:47:21.280 | Well, the wet market theory,

00:47:22.640 | the pangolin. Remember the pangolin?

00:47:25.680 | We needed Jon Stewart to dismantle the pangolin theory.

00:47:29.840 | You know, in relation to that, these wet markets have spread

00:47:33.360 | massive viruses and, you know, all kinds of things. And they do

00:47:38.480 | need to be, there was like a UN report on like, hey, we have to

00:47:41.680 | upgrade because people have to stop doing live markets.

00:47:43.680 | That's why it was a great cover story.

00:47:45.520 | I think it was a logical theory to pursue to the end point of

00:47:49.440 | eliminating it because they around Wuhan, there are a lot of

00:47:53.120 | these wet markets. It is completely conceivable that a

00:47:55.920 | person who was in that lab went to a wet market and it spread

00:47:59.680 | via the wet market. This is why we need a full investigation,

00:48:02.320 | folks, because all these theories could come together.

00:48:04.880 | And there are more cards to turn over, which one of you

00:48:07.760 | alluded to, like, who knows what the turn in the river are

00:48:10.960 | going to be here? Like, what did China know? What did our

00:48:14.160 | government and China know? Maybe they are making bioweapons.

00:48:17.600 | Maybe they're doing even worse stuff that we don't know about.

00:48:20.720 | Maybe there's all kinds of rogue programs that are being that

00:48:23.280 | are occurring here. That's why we need to keep digging and

00:48:25.920 | digging. The American public must hold these people

00:48:29.200 | accountable. And they need to tell us who else was involved.

00:48:33.680 | Because if Fauci is involved, and this guy's involved, there's

00:48:35.840 | other people. I want to hear from everybody.

00:48:38.160 | There's many crazy parts of this. But I think maybe the

00:48:40.160 | craziest part of the whole thing is that when the pandemic

00:48:43.200 | happens, and the elected government of the United States,

00:48:46.800 | the President needs to pull in the resources to manage a

00:48:49.840 | policy response, who do they pull in? Fauci, the guy who

00:48:53.280 | created the problem. It's kind of like when they have Newland

00:48:56.400 | be our chief diplomat in the State Department, and she's

00:48:58.720 | fomented the coup in Kiev in 2014. It's again, these, these

00:49:04.000 | bureaucrats are doing the exact opposite of what they're

00:49:06.640 | supposed to be doing. They're not being honest. Yes. But I

00:49:11.120 | think to answer your question, what do we do about it? I think

00:49:13.040 | we just got to clean out the stables here. Yeah, I think we

00:49:15.680 | just got to disband some of these government departments.

00:49:18.000 | Why do we have so many this whole alphabet soup of three

00:49:20.320 | letter agencies? I think Vivek Ramaswamy had the right idea.

00:49:23.920 | Let's just get rid of a bunch of these things.

00:49:25.680 | zero based budget, the whole government start over. Yeah,

00:49:29.520 | and just go right through each one. Like if and you know what,

00:49:32.000 | it should be a bipartisan issue. But there's so much money

00:49:34.480 | involved. This is one of the challenges in the capitalist

00:49:36.400 | system. Is there so much money, there's so much grift to go

00:49:38.880 | around that when something like this happens, and there's an

00:49:42.320 | opportunity to I don't know, make a vaccine and, you know,

00:49:46.160 | put a couple of billion dollars into this lightspeed thing,

00:49:49.120 | which was a great idea. Seemingly, everybody lines up,

00:49:52.480 | okay, yeah, sure, we'll get involved. We'll take some of

00:49:54.080 | that money. Yeah, buy a billion shots from us. President Trump

00:49:57.200 | was really on to this, because he's the one that really coined

00:49:59.520 | the term the deep state and went after it. And if you think

00:50:02.400 | about the other side, right, the people that are there, it must

00:50:06.640 | be very discomforting to hear because a lot of those people

00:50:09.840 | are folks that worked hard, tried to go to good schools, get

00:50:13.520 | educated, and join an infrastructure to move a country

00:50:18.320 | forward, because they believe in the country and the values

00:50:20.160 | sounds like a noble, noble mission, right? But over long

00:50:23.680 | periods of time, most people come and go. And then there's a

00:50:27.440 | small cohort of folks that sort of end up ossifying and running

00:50:31.600 | the top parts of this permanent bureaucracy. And I think Saks is

00:50:35.840 | right, they start to observe just the simple principle that

00:50:39.200 | all these folks come and go yet, I'm still around. President

00:50:43.120 | comes, President goes, undersecretary comes,

00:50:45.600 | undersecretary goes, the secretary of this comes in, then

00:50:48.720 | they go. And so they start to believe that they're really in

00:50:52.320 | charge. And that's where the deep state idea comes from.

00:50:55.840 | At least we're in a democracy where these hearings are

00:50:59.680 | occurring. I just want to give kudos to in addition to those

00:51:02.800 | two journalists, to the people on this subcommittee, who are

00:51:06.080 | doing it in a bipartisan way. And they will be and they're

00:51:09.440 | being relentless. I think that's the honorable thing to do. I

00:51:12.560 | encourage them and those investigative journalists to be

00:51:14.960 | relentless.

00:51:15.600 | And kudos to Rand Paul, too. Remember when he was

00:51:19.440 | profiling courage, people were like, this guy's a loon.

00:51:22.000 | No, Rand Paul had a right.

00:51:23.680 | To your point about what does this mean for our democracy, I

00:51:26.240 | want to just bring up the Semaphore article where they

00:51:28.560 | polled young people, and young voters, they despair over US

00:51:33.280 | politics, they describe the United States as a dying empire

00:51:36.240 | led by bad people. I mean, after what we've learned about COVID,

00:51:40.720 | and I would argue also the whole background to not wrong or is

00:51:45.040 | this right? Exactly. Their intuition is their intuition is

00:51:48.400 | right. Yeah, from the mouths of babes. I mean, it bad is I mean,

00:51:52.320 | if they covered this up, in the way it's looking like I would

00:51:55.680 | call this behavior, not bad. I'd call it evil, because it was

00:51:58.400 | premeditated. And then the point is, we're supposed to have this

00:52:01.760 | check and balance from the media. But when the media is

00:52:04.480 | complicit, because they like to be in those halls of power,

00:52:07.040 | that's where that's where these feelings come from. I think the

00:52:09.840 | latest stat that I saw is I think more than 52% of

00:52:13.040 | Americans now believe that the mainstream media is

00:52:16.240 | untrustworthy. And that's a really terrible place to be,

00:52:19.120 | which means you're basically where do you get through, you're

00:52:21.840 | consuming something that's just fundamentally not true.

00:52:23.920 | I mean, burn it down. I mean, that's the conclusion any

00:52:26.480 | logical person would come to is just burn it down. This makes no

00:52:30.000 | sense that they would try and cover this up. The right thing

00:52:32.160 | for Fauci to do is say, hey, listen, we didn't do gain of

00:52:35.360 | function. You know, under Obama, we did do it here. It's

00:52:40.000 | obviously been a mistake. We need to never do it again. And

00:52:42.880 | here's the roadmap to make sure that we protect people from the

00:52:45.520 | next one. Thank God this one didn't kill children the way

00:52:47.840 | it's killing all people. And by the way, this is gonna crack

00:52:50.560 | open. I encourage you all to be vocal about this and to watch

00:52:53.760 | on Monday, because Dr. Fauci is scheduled to appear in a

00:52:57.120 | hearing for the same sub committee and that is going to

00:53:00.400 | be explosive and live streamed on YouTube. We'll put the link

00:53:03.440 | in the show notes. Since we're in the don't trust anybody and

00:53:07.440 | have your own sovereignty, and we're in libertarian moment.

00:53:10.160 | Let's go to our crypto correspondent. It's crypto

00:53:13.600 | corner with trauma.

00:53:15.600 | It's part of my production company. I'm not doing crypto

00:53:20.720 | corner with your mouth. I'll be next week's call, though. I

00:53:23.280 | thought it would be good to talk about crypto. For a couple of

00:53:26.720 | reasons. One is because we just had the having at the end of

00:53:31.200 | April, when this happened. The having is where just for folks

00:53:34.800 | that don't know the way that bitcoins are created is by

00:53:37.360 | solving these complex mathematical algorithms that

00:53:39.600 | take a lot of time and energy and, and money. And when you

00:53:43.120 | solve it, you get rewarded with some number of Bitcoin. And

00:53:47.680 | roughly every four years, that reward gets cut in half. It's

00:53:51.920 | called a having. And this week, I saw somebody who reminded me

00:53:58.480 | all of this and I just want to give this guy a proper shout

00:54:00.560 | out. So his name is Wences Casares and Wences in Silicon

00:54:04.560 | Valley, I would say really was agent zero of Bitcoin. He was

00:54:08.000 | the one in 2010 that introduced it to me. I remember he reminded

00:54:12.640 | me of the story. Actually, we were at orange hummus. And he's

00:54:16.000 | like, he's Argentinian. Great. He's a great so I'm going to

00:54:18.080 | try to copy his accent. You're not to buy the Bitcoin. So I

00:54:22.160 | heard the story. I fell in love with it. I remember I called my

00:54:24.880 | family office. I'm like, buy me a million of these things. And

00:54:26.800 | he was like, or a million dollars worth. And he was like,

00:54:29.920 | Are you crazy? And I was like, No, there's just a little

00:54:32.000 | appetizer. We'll get to the main main course. Anyways, he has

00:54:36.080 | done a phenomenal job of understanding and proselytizing

00:54:38.880 | Bitcoin. And I want to thank him because he really put me on

00:54:42.960 | to this. But he mentioned something to me when I saw him a

00:54:46.240 | couple days ago, which is you should really look at the

00:54:49.280 | pattern of Bitcoin after a having. And so I was really

00:54:54.000 | curious. And so I had a guy on my team, Quentin put this

00:54:57.360 | together. So Nick, let me just let's go to the first page. So

00:55:01.120 | why is this interesting? So here's a little Bitcoin price

00:55:03.360 | analysis for you guys. So there's been a couple of having

00:55:06.560 | cycles that have happened. And I asked him to go back and look

00:55:10.880 | at the price performance one month after having three months,

00:55:15.200 | six months, nine months, 12 months, and 18 months after

00:55:18.160 | having. And what you notice is that there are these moments,

00:55:24.240 | initially, where essentially, when you go through a Bitcoin

00:55:27.760 | having, people are sort of reassessing what's happening.

00:55:31.120 | And they're trying to figure it out. That's sort of what I would

00:55:33.920 | say is happens in the first month, and roughly what also

00:55:36.480 | happens in the first three months. But then within six

00:55:40.720 | months to a year and 18 months of these things, there are these

00:55:43.920 | crazy price appreciation cycles that happen. So that's what

00:55:49.040 | this page shows, which is, you know, 18 months after the first

00:55:53.680 | having the Bitcoin price returned 45 x, after the second

00:55:59.680 | having it returned almost 28 x. And after this third having it

00:56:04.960 | returned almost an eight x, which is really incredible

00:56:08.640 | returns in such a short period of time, if you go to the next

00:56:10.960 | page. And so if you if you graph that this is what it starts to

00:56:14.000 | show, which is what is this price performance after each of

00:56:16.560 | these having cycles? Now, why is that interesting? Well, it's

00:56:19.840 | interesting, because on top of this having which, theoretically,

00:56:24.800 | if history is a guide, we should see some price

00:56:29.680 | appreciation. Obviously, the other thing that's happened is

00:56:32.160 | we've commercialized Bitcoin. And we talked about this sort of

00:56:34.880 | as my big prediction for 2024, which is these ETFs are really

00:56:39.920 | going to allow Bitcoin to cross the chasm and habits, sort of

00:56:43.280 | central key moment, right. And so if you apply the averages,

00:56:47.760 | and again, these are just averages, they're by no means

00:56:50.160 | predictions, okay, so I just want to qualify that these are

00:56:52.720 | just not financial advice, not financial advice. These are just

00:56:55.360 | we took these and we applied it to the price of Bitcoin. And if

00:56:59.840 | you go to the next page, you start to see what could happen

00:57:04.800 | if you just take the average of the last few cycles. So because

00:57:08.080 | the first cycle was so extreme, and you start to just doing

00:57:11.840 | cycle two and three here, to be clear, just the averages of

00:57:14.480 | cycle two and three. And what you start to see is some really

00:57:17.680 | meaningful appreciation. And when I talked to once is about

00:57:22.960 | this, how he explained it, which I which makes a lot of sense to

00:57:25.840 | me is there are a lot of countries that will never look

00:57:31.040 | at Bitcoin credibly, even if they support it, the US may be

00:57:34.080 | one of those, but there's an increasing body of countries

00:57:36.640 | that will become dual currency. And they will look at their

00:57:41.680 | local currency, and then they will look at Bitcoin. And they

00:57:44.720 | will say both of these two things are needed. One, when

00:57:47.760 | you're transacting on a daily basis for random goods and

00:57:50.400 | services. And two, when you need to buy a permanent asset that

00:57:54.160 | needs to have residual value, you'll use something like BTC.

00:57:58.000 | And I think that's a very powerful concept. And if you

00:58:01.600 | look at what this price chart could indicate is that if this

00:58:07.520 | thing starts to get to these levels of appreciation, it is

00:58:10.720 | going to completely replace gold and start to become

00:58:14.000 | something that has transactional utility for hard

00:58:17.840 | assets. And I think if you marry that with this worry that

00:58:21.520 | some folks have about dollar debasement, you start to see

00:58:25.440 | some really interesting opportunities. So I just thought

00:58:27.600 | that this was a interesting thing that he that he here's

00:58:31.200 | our disclaimer, interesting thing that he put me on. I

00:58:33.200 | thought I'd share that with you. I'll publish this on

00:58:34.800 | Twitter. But that's your crypto corner for the year, folks.

00:58:38.160 | I think it's really interesting how the crypto community is

00:58:40.800 | getting organized into basically a lobby to advocate for its

00:58:45.920 | interest, because it's the biggest lobby in America. Did

00:58:48.320 | you know that they've been so targeted over the last few

00:58:50.640 | years, because Gensler and Warren have been on a crusade to

00:58:55.760 | basically make crypto illegal or drive it offshore? Well,

00:58:59.040 | every action has a equal and opposite reaction. And now the

00:59:02.400 | crypto people have basically had a political awakening and

00:59:05.440 | realize they have to get involved in the political

00:59:07.280 | system. Yeah, this is a matter of defense, self defense.

00:59:10.480 | Shout out SPF. So they're getting a pioneer.

00:59:13.680 | Well, not like that. I mean, like, I mean, he was dropping

00:59:17.680 | money on everybody. Yeah. Did you hear this? Did you hear this

00:59:21.040 | rumor that he was doing that to basically push for regulatory

00:59:24.000 | capture? Remember? Yeah, I think it's a point. Did you guys hear

00:59:28.480 | this? Did you guys hear this rumor that SPF was going to put

00:59:31.760 | a billion dollars into the election and convince Tom Brady

00:59:34.800 | to run as a Republican? And give don't give the billion to

00:59:37.600 | Trump. Oh, sorry, give the billion to Trump. He was gonna

00:59:40.000 | give Trump a billion to not run. Okay. And then get Tom Brady

00:59:44.320 | run. I mean, this person had delusions of gravity. He thought

00:59:46.720 | he was a Jedi Knight. And he's like, literally in Jabba's

00:59:50.240 | palace right now. I don't know what this I mean, what a lunatic

00:59:52.640 | he was. I mean, talk about delusions of grandeur sacks.

00:59:55.840 | This guy thought he would just drop a billion dollars and

00:59:59.360 | convince somebody not to run for government. I think we're

01:00:02.000 | gonna I think we're gonna get a regulatory, you know, back to

01:00:04.720 | the young people we talked about in the previous story. I think

01:00:07.920 | the reason they're attracted to crypto is because it doesn't

01:00:10.880 | have government control. And since if you don't trust the

01:00:13.040 | government, and you see the government over and over and

01:00:15.760 | over again, cover things up or the grift or make decisions that

01:00:19.600 | are not in your generation's best interest, why wouldn't you

01:00:22.560 | opt out of their financial system? And you know what,

01:00:25.040 | there's a lot of them. And they have they're getting organized

01:00:27.520 | to your point, sacks. I think we're going to have a crypto

01:00:30.400 | framework. And it's worth probably five points in this

01:00:34.960 | election. What do you think sacks? How many points is being

01:00:37.280 | the pro crypto candidate worth in this election? 123 points of

01:00:41.040 | votes, four points, it's got to be hard to show up, it'll be

01:00:46.000 | it'll be it could be 500 basis points. I mean, young people do

01:00:49.440 | not show up to vote because there isn't an issue that they

01:00:51.680 | care about. Correct. But there's 50 million Americans that own

01:00:54.800 | crypto 5050. Okay, so if 10% of them are like, let's say that's

01:00:59.920 | their show. That's 5 million votes. No, no, no. There's a

01:01:03.920 | there's a plausible case where 40 million of those folks show

01:01:07.520 | up because you're talking about a structural part of their

01:01:10.560 | wealth creation. Right. So for example, like, you know, Biden,

01:01:13.760 | President Biden talked about giving people a head start by

01:01:16.320 | eliminating their debt. That's a narrow issue. And the reason

01:01:19.760 | it's a narrow issue, there's just as many people that don't

01:01:22.000 | have debt, and just as many people that paid off their debt,

01:01:24.080 | and it creates a lot of haves and have nots. Right. And

01:01:28.320 | there's all these rules around who will get the debt relief,

01:01:30.960 | etc. You end up touching four or 5 million people, maximum. But

01:01:36.320 | if there are 50 million people who have now decided to have at

01:01:39.280 | least the hedge against the establishment, and the

01:01:44.400 | traditional financial system, and you are threatening to take

01:01:48.720 | that wealth away, yeah, I could see how 80% of those folks show

01:01:52.240 | up to the ballot box and say, All right, which one of you will

01:01:54.800 | just leave me alone? And if the answer is President Trump, and

01:01:57.440 | they're all going to vote for President Trump, I think this is

01:01:59.600 | like such a great issue for political candidates to embrace.

01:02:04.000 | And it's such a simple framework, I've said it a dozen

01:02:06.960 | times, create a sophisticated investor test, let 1000 flowers

01:02:11.280 | bloom, people can make whatever crypto projects they want. But

01:02:13.760 | to buy it, you just have to take a simple test like a driver's

01:02:17.520 | license, so that you don't risk your entire net worth or

01:02:21.120 | whatever. If you do, you're an informed buyer of crypto, just

01:02:24.160 | make a sophisticated investor test. And let's move on to mock

01:02:27.280 | just since we're in crypto corner before we leave crypto

01:02:29.280 | corner, when is my ape going to be worth money again, when will

01:02:32.000 | my ape go back on? Never. So my apes not coming back. Okay, so I

01:02:36.560 | guess I shouldn't have done that. All right. How's sax coin

01:02:41.600 | doing? We had sex point and we had went crazy, but that was a

01:02:45.920 | pump and dump scheme that we had nothing to do with I will never

01:02:48.880 | sell you a coin. Until I do. I just want to let everybody know

01:02:52.640 | that if you get a DM from me, I am not selling j coin until you

01:02:57.680 | hear it first. I would literally do an angel investing coin

01:03:02.160 | immediately if there was a framework for it would be the

01:03:05.040 | greatest idea ever to have like a j coin and I could just like

01:03:07.760 | put it into startups that people could buy and sell it and be

01:03:09.760 | like this ongoing evergreen venture. Where's my J now?

01:03:14.720 | I love dows and I love I love the idea of an angel investing

01:03:19.040 | coin but man, startup coin would be brilliant. Yeah, the Jason

01:03:22.880 | coin is basically at zero it man it it was worth the sound is

01:03:27.440 | down to eight grand. Yeah. anything to do with sax coin

01:03:30.800 | either but I was more amused by it than anything else. Yeah,

01:03:33.920 | well, my friend decided to tell everybody he was gonna buy some

01:03:37.600 | and then straight to the moon.

01:03:43.680 | It's hilarious. I have some. I've only we've only bought

01:03:47.600 | crypto twice. We have some doge which I bought during like our

01:03:52.720 | doge phase a couple years ago. And then my wife presently bought

01:03:57.840 | Bitcoin, you know, at a very low price when everybody was

01:04:00.880 | talking around it around Thanksgiving. And my heart

01:04:04.480 | Bitcoin went phenomenal. And my doge is at break even now. So

01:04:09.680 | I've spent two years just on the pendulum. But who knows maybe

01:04:13.040 | those become a thing again. I love doge. All right, we have a

01:04:16.240 | bellwether of sorts here. Salesforce dropped more than 20%

01:04:19.200 | after reporting earnings. We should talk about the state of

01:04:22.480 | SaaS software as a service if you're not in the industry.

01:04:25.680 | Salesforce had its worst day in the markets in nearly 20 years

01:04:29.680 | on Thursday. And that's when we take this. It was about $40

01:04:33.040 | billion in market cap or as we say in the industry to figmas on

01:04:36.560 | Wednesday, Salesforce missed q1 revenue estimates for the first

01:04:39.280 | time since 2006. Revenue was up 9.1 billion 11% year over year,

01:04:44.640 | but about 40 million below Wall Street expectation. So they're

01:04:47.760 | doing great. But Wall Street is concerned for a reason we'll get

01:04:52.000 | into what that is net income was 1.5 billion seven X year over

01:04:55.920 | year because they've been doing a lot of cuts over their free

01:04:58.400 | cash flow 6 billion up 43%. Profits are up huge because if

01:05:02.800 | you remember those activist investors came in and had

01:05:05.600 | Benioff, really rethink the structure of the business and

01:05:09.280 | the footprint of the business, but guidance for q2 down.

01:05:12.720 | Salesforce projecting 7% growth relatively low for them.

01:05:16.960 | Freeberg, you and I were talking about this, like, what are your

01:05:20.240 | thoughts here on what's happening in the markets, and

01:05:25.120 | then we had the side discussion, which we didn't dock it, but I

01:05:28.400 | think it's worth bringing up here and dovetailing, which is,

01:05:30.640 | it does seem like the consumer, which is an enterprise story,

01:05:34.720 | but the economy is cooling off consumers, I think are running

01:05:38.720 | out of money, the Yolo economy is finally, I think, at its end.

01:05:44.080 | What does this say to you, free bird?

01:05:46.400 | Well, I think the key question to your point, is there a macro

01:05:49.840 | economic reason for a slowdown in their business, they're

01:05:53.040 | forecasting for this next fiscal year, revenue growth of only

01:05:58.160 | eight to 9%. And for this next quarter, it's basically a flat

01:06:02.240 | revenue quarter relative to the past quarter. So for this

01:06:06.000 | fiscal year, 38 billion of top line revenue, 9 billion of

01:06:10.400 | operating cash flow. And with the market cap coming down by

01:06:14.080 | 20%, the stocks at a $200 billion valuation. So it's

01:06:17.440 | trading it, you know, call it roughly 20 times their operating

01:06:21.200 | cash flow forecast with sub 10% revenue growth. And that's

01:06:25.040 | basically where treasuries trade, right? Because treasury

01:06:27.440 | yields for 30 year treasury, you can get 4.7% today.

01:06:31.520 | Yeah, it's about say, almost five,

01:06:32.960 | you know, that's about 20 x, right. So that's about where the

01:06:35.600 | multiple is on this Salesforce stock. So I think it really begs

01:06:38.720 | the question on, you know, is there a macro economic force

01:06:41.440 | where the enterprise is spending less? Because of, you know, a

01:06:46.240 | revenue slowdown in the economy, which we saw in the latest GDP

01:06:49.840 | report, that's number one, that could be driving this and will

01:06:52.000 | affect ultimately the multiple for all these enterprise SaaS

01:06:54.880 | companies. Or number two, is there a shifting underway in the

01:06:58.400 | SaaS business model, that the premium that SaaS companies were

01:07:01.760 | able to charge in the pricing model on a per seat basis, and

01:07:04.400 | the dollars that they're able to charge per employee or per user

01:07:07.680 | is so significant, relative to what that enterprise can build

01:07:13.200 | themselves now, with the commoditization available to

01:07:16.880 | them under this new era of AI, and the ability to build tools

01:07:20.400 | internally, or the ability for competitors to emerge with

01:07:23.920 | significantly underpriced alternatives, because they can

01:07:26.640 | use generative AI to make software that can compete. And

01:07:30.720 | then there's this other question, because Salesforce has

01:07:32.800 | been leaning in heavily on the generative AI capabilities that

01:07:36.640 | they're offering their customers. And it seems like the

01:07:39.920 | question is, are enterprises waiting to see the value of that

01:07:43.520 | generative AI service capability? Is it worth paying

01:07:46.480 | for today? Should I wait and see? Or is it actually

01:07:49.120 | indicating that there's a big commoditization and generative AI

01:07:51.840 | underway? Okay, meaning why do we have to pay Salesforce a

01:07:54.240 | bunch of money when I can use some open source third party

01:07:56.800 | tool or some more freely available tool?

01:07:58.640 | So Chamath, Freyberg presented two options here, one of them,

01:08:02.080 | macroeconomic slowdown, the other one, hey, software, you

01:08:06.320 | know, belt tightening is happening inside the enterprise

01:08:08.240 | and it's cheaper to make. So maybe we have a deflationary

01:08:12.080 | kind of situation inside companies, I guess this is

01:08:15.360 | adjacent, that last part of his theory is adjacent to the 8090

01:08:18.960 | mission you're on with your new startup. And maybe this is this

01:08:22.800 | is an or or an end in your mind, Chamath, is it both these

01:08:25.280 | things? But sorry, before you answer, the third point I made

01:08:27.680 | was that generative AI might Yes. And the third point may not

01:08:31.120 | be a product line, it may not be enough to charge for given all

01:08:33.920 | the open source tools. Yes. And there's a big question mark

01:08:36.080 | about the AI new software, will people pay for it? So Chamath

01:08:39.200 | take those three, what are your thoughts?

01:08:41.120 | I think that if you look at what happened before, we had

01:08:45.600 | a cycle where very large monolithic software was

01:08:52.080 | replaced by the SAS vendors, and Salesforce led that charge.

01:08:55.520 | And they led the many ways the definition of the cloud. So

01:08:58.800 | that was amazing. That was this one big cycle. And before that,

01:09:03.440 | that monolithic, those monolithic software vendors were

01:09:06.560 | replacing like mainframes and very archaic stuff. This is sort

01:09:11.120 | of this third disruptive cycle, we're going to go through a

01:09:14.480 | process of ripping and replacing these legacy products. And so

01:09:20.400 | Jenny, I is just a, an enablement layer that allows you

01:09:23.920 | to deliver functionality to people. And I think what you're

01:09:28.160 | going to find is that it allows you to deliver that

01:09:30.240 | functionality at much, much cheaper. To your point, that's

01:09:32.480 | the whole point of 8090. We, you know, we always joke with

01:09:35.280 | Salesforce going to get 8090. Yeah, because you can deliver

01:09:38.480 | 80% of the features at a 90% discount pretty easily today.

01:09:43.280 | And what you can't deliver today will get much, much easier

01:09:46.480 | in a year and two years and three years, for sure in 10

01:09:50.320 | years. So I think what the market is voting with their

01:09:55.760 | dollars, is that these large, lumpy monolithic software

01:09:59.360 | companies that need big 50 $100 million customers, they're not

01:10:06.240 | going to find them soon, because those customers will realize

01:10:09.200 | that you could get, you know, what Friedberg said, what you

01:10:11.840 | need for 10 million, or 5 million, or 1 million, or 500,000.

01:10:16.960 | And in some cases free. And so the cost structure of your

01:10:21.040 | organization makes no sense. And so you're going to have to

01:10:24.160 | go through this very complicated cycle of recycling, you know,

01:10:27.440 | the business model, which unfortunately will mean tons of

01:10:30.320 | layoffs. And that's not a today thing. But over these next five

01:10:33.840 | and 10 years, that's probably what's going to happen. And it

01:10:37.040 | doesn't mean Salesforce is a bad company. It's just that it is

01:10:40.080 | on the wrong side of the life cycle. And the odds are

01:10:44.640 | overwhelmingly such that a bunch of small companies will flood

01:10:48.960 | this opportunity and provides cheaper, smaller, more flexible

01:10:52.720 | capabilities.

01:10:53.360 | Saks, obviously, you made your bones in the SaaS business over

01:10:56.720 | the last two decades, at least. What are your thoughts here on

01:11:00.400 | the challenges? I just interviewed Owen McCabe from

01:11:04.640 | intercom, and he says he thinks the seat model is going to

01:11:07.280 | change. And obviously, if there's less people at companies,

01:11:10.000 | there's less seats. And that may be a headwind that you just

01:11:13.600 | can't win against. So maybe a consumption model has to happen

01:11:16.240 | or a different pricing model. But what are your thoughts on

01:11:18.640 | what's happening at Salesforce, and then open the aperture there

01:11:22.000 | and tell us what you think is going to happen in terms of how

01:11:24.720 | corporations either decide to make that, you know, build or

01:11:28.560 | buy decision?

01:11:30.000 | Well, I think it's pretty amazing that Salesforce lost

01:11:33.760 | something like 40 billion of market cap because of a revenue

01:11:38.000 | mess of 40 million. You know, it's amazing how these relatively

01:11:41.920 | small in percentage terms, misses in revenue earnings drive

01:11:46.880 | such huge changes in market cap.

01:11:48.880 | Quite a ripple, isn't it?

01:11:50.320 | Yeah. I mean, look, my view is that I don't have a strong view

01:11:55.200 | about the stock, but my sense is probably a buying opportunity.

01:11:59.040 | I mean, I think Salesforce is still a great company. Mark

01:12:01.280 | Benioff is a great CEO. He's always positioned the company to

01:12:06.080 | chase after whatever the current thing is. So obviously, he was

01:12:09.840 | one of the first to realize that software was headed to the

01:12:14.560 | cloud, evangelize for the cloud. Then when the social networking

01:12:19.840 | revolution happened, he launched Chatter, which was a

01:12:22.320 | competitor to my product Yammer back then. But he was ahead of

01:12:25.440 | the curve on social and the enterprise. Then it was big data

01:12:29.040 | and they launched Einstein. Now they've got AI and they're going

01:12:32.800 | to be doing a bunch of different things there. So my guess is

01:12:36.320 | he's going to figure out how to take advantage of this AI trend

01:12:40.160 | for the company. They're not going to miss it. They're not

01:12:42.480 | going to get caught totally flat footed. So you look, I don't

01:12:46.800 | have a super strong point of view on it as an investment, but

01:12:50.800 | I still think it's a good company.

01:12:51.600 | What about the bigger picture? Open the aperture there with

01:12:54.480 | the Salesforce and pricing and how many people work at these

01:12:58.000 | companies. And then if the per seat model is the model, and

01:13:00.720 | then people are going to have less humans working at companies

01:13:03.520 | and do more with less, how does that mean for SAS writ large?

01:13:06.800 | I'm honestly not worried about the per seat model. I mean, the

01:13:09.600 | point of a pricing plan should be to align revenue expansion

01:13:16.480 | with ROI, meaning the more value that a customer gets from

01:13:20.080 | your product, the more they're willing to pay. And you just

01:13:23.200 | need some proxy for measuring that seats are a good proxy.

01:13:27.520 | It's a good way to measure how much value the customer is

01:13:30.320 | getting out of your product, because the more seats they're

01:13:32.080 | buying, the more value they must be getting. Yes, you could do

01:13:35.040 | it some other way. You could basically meter data usage. You

01:13:38.880 | could meter API usage. Sure. Those models will work for other

01:13:43.600 | kinds of companies, but I don't think there's going to be a huge

01:13:46.320 | disruption to the seat model is my sense.

01:13:48.560 | Look, I think the bigger issue here is that their forecast was

01:13:54.080 | soft, right? They are forecasting what sub 10% revenue

01:13:58.560 | growth, they're going to and this is why the stock got

01:14:01.520 | punished. And I'm seeing that a bunch of SAS companies are kind

01:14:05.760 | of hurting today. Now in the wake of this, they're down like

01:14:08.480 | 5%, not 20. But so I wonder if what the market is wondering is

01:14:14.720 | whether there's a more general slowdown that we're on the

01:14:17.920 | precipice of I don't think that that explains 40 to 20% drop in

01:14:22.240 | a day. I think typically these public market investors

01:14:26.000 | internalize a bunch of fears, and they don't execute on those

01:14:31.440 | fears. And then when given an opportunity, they just barf it

01:14:34.480 | all out, because it's like now it's acceptable. And so to your

01:14:38.160 | point, David, like it was such like a, an insignificant revenue

01:14:42.320 | miss, so as to not even be important, quite honestly. But

01:14:45.280 | the reason it's down 20% is I think folks have internalized

01:14:48.480 | different set of risks. And then they've found an escape hatch

01:14:52.160 | where they have plausible deniability for selling. That's

01:14:54.400 | just what a lot of public market investors do. I don't think

01:14:56.880 | it's a coincidence that we just had the GDP forecast revised

01:15:00.560 | down for the latest quarter. What was it? It's down to like

01:15:03.920 | 1.4% something. Yeah, we talked about this last week, because

01:15:07.520 | it's this number is fake. The economy is looking pretty soft

01:15:10.800 | right now. Which is, I guess a good jumping off point, which

01:15:15.600 | is do what do we think is happening here with the economy

01:15:19.280 | and then interest rates, because the whole goal here was to get

01:15:22.080 | us under, you know, get us close to 2%, get rid of the free

01:15:25.280 | handle, at least in terms of interest going up and maybe get

01:15:29.120 | the consumers to not be spending so much money, which is crazy to

01:15:33.360 | think about or maybe get more people laid off and have the

01:15:35.440 | unemployment not so low. Remember when everyone was

01:15:37.920 | talking about soft landing? Yeah, the reason why they were

01:15:40.640 | having that conversation is because the Fed jacked up

01:15:43.440 | interest rates really suddenly from roughly zero to five, five

01:15:46.800 | and a half percent. And it works that has an impact on

01:15:49.920 | people's consumption, because debt is much more expensive. So

01:15:53.840 | again, it's it's where to buy a house harder to buy a car,

01:15:56.320 | anything you need to finance gets much harder. It took a long

01:16:00.080 | time for this to work its way through the economy. But I think

01:16:02.080 | we're finally seeing it now. I think we're I think that's

01:16:04.400 | exactly right. I think we're here when you see that three

01:16:06.400 | handle, like, does it go down? You know, it's very interesting

01:16:08.960 | about the 2% target, I went down the rabbit hole to try to

01:16:11.600 | figure out that 2% target. Like, I was like, who came up

01:16:15.040 | with 2% as a number, like, why isn't it three or 2.5? Or 1.5?

01:16:18.320 | Or one? It's a guy in New Zealand who was, you know, came

01:16:21.280 | up with what he thought was a good target 2%, the world

01:16:23.440 | adopted it. So going back to our conversation about experts.

01:16:27.280 | Yeah, he just really admits it. He's just like, yeah, I just

01:16:29.920 | thought 3% seemed like the right number wasn't too high, wasn't

01:16:33.120 | too low. And it's kind of healthy to have things go up in

01:16:35.840 | price, because that means the economy is growing. It's just a

01:16:39.360 | random target 2% was his gut. Incredible, right?

01:16:42.720 | Incredible. Yeah, I mean, if you look at this, we are at what

01:16:48.080 | is it 3.6% annualized CPI inflation and 1.3% annualized

01:16:55.920 | GDP growth and a 4.7% 30 year treasury yield. This is I don't

01:17:01.440 | know what else is more definitional of stagflation. The

01:17:05.120 | economy is not growing prices are going up and the cost of

01:17:07.920 | borrow has gone through the roof.

01:17:09.840 | Someone's got to give and then also if they keep raising taxes,

01:17:13.840 | well, it's like their plans are then affluent people are going

01:17:17.520 | to be trying to protect their assets and who's they I'm just

01:17:21.600 | thinking like a politician like if a politician were to raise

01:17:24.800 | taxes dramatically, but I don't want to I don't want you to

01:17:28.960 | have Biden derangement syndrome here sacks. Okay, well, I can

01:17:31.760 | promise you this. I don't think Trump's gonna raise taxes, but

01:17:34.480 | I know he has the trifecta. Absolutely, absolutely. That's

01:17:38.160 | why I'll see you Thursday night with my $50,000 check. I can't

01:17:40.960 | wait to be there. Yeah, it's gonna easily be paid for by my

01:17:44.240 | tax cut. Just to jump back for a second on the point. So you

01:17:48.560 | know, Salesforce faces these challenges, but it's still led

01:17:51.200 | by Mark Benioff. Absolutely. That dude's tremendous. And if

01:17:54.960 | you look at the performance of the average public company,

01:17:58.880 | regardless of the sector that that business operates in, that

01:18:02.800 | is run by a hired CEO versus run by a founder CEO. Yeah, the

01:18:06.880 | founder public companies that have that have gone public

01:18:10.320 | achieved a $10 billion market cap and are still founder run as

01:18:15.120 | the CEO from their outperform nearly any index you look at.

01:18:19.360 | And this is I think like a really key point you could

01:18:23.600 | probably put together I think some people have done this put

01:18:25.520 | together a founder portfolio, but I wouldn't count out Benioff

01:18:29.920 | just because of some of the stuff that we've talked about

01:18:32.080 | as founders, founders, founders can and will maneuver their way

01:18:37.600 | to success. That is the hunger of let's do our let's do our

01:18:40.800 | draft. The one founders you should not bet against which

01:18:45.440 | founder would you least want to short Chamath your first in the

01:18:49.040 | draft? What do you got? Who would you not want to bet

01:18:51.600 | against? Worst person to bet against? Sorry, what do you

01:18:56.640 | mean? Like founders? Any entrepreneur in history know

01:19:00.480 | what happened when people tried to short you on they got

01:19:02.640 | incinerated barbecue sauce. Okay, you got you picked you on

01:19:05.360 | the draft then it's number one. You got? Yeah, that's easy. I

01:19:09.040 | would pick you too. Okay, but we can't pick somebody out.

01:19:11.360 | That's why it's a draft here. We took you and I gotta take the

01:19:13.440 | next person. It could be anybody doesn't have to be alive

01:19:15.840 | doesn't have to be in position right now. Who would I say?

01:19:20.720 | Sorry? What's what founder least likely to short? An

01:19:24.800 | entrepreneur you least want to short? Well, there you are.

01:19:28.160 | Listen, there's yours. Hold on. Now free break. You get to go

01:19:31.120 | in the draft. Yeah, I don't know the I mean, all these

01:19:33.760 | founders. I don't know how to pick one. I mean, what are you

01:19:35.520 | going to go with? Yeah, I'm going to go with go with Bill

01:19:41.040 | Gates. What he's not always talking. No, I said it could be

01:19:46.080 | any time period of time. Yeah, now that you know the stock

01:19:48.400 | performance. What are you talking about? I just think even

01:19:50.880 | in the next. You're gonna go out on a limb and say that was

01:20:00.320 | Bill Gates was doing his legendary run. I wouldn't have

01:20:03.040 | shorted it. I also wouldn't short Michael Jordan or LeBron

01:20:06.400 | James, Steph Curry, definitely wouldn't get bet against him.

01:20:09.840 | All right, everybody breaking news today in the law being

01:20:12.800 | fair. I'm sorry today in lawfare depending on your view

01:20:16.160 | Trump was found guilty on all 34 felony charges. You can choose

01:20:20.720 | your own framing here. Some say it's election interference.

01:20:23.680 | Some people are referring to this as the hush money porn

01:20:26.560 | star case. Other people are calling it the deep state

01:20:28.720 | lawfare case. The jury deliberated for about a day and

01:20:32.640 | a half. Trial lasted six weeks, include testimony from 20

01:20:36.960 | witnesses. Key moment seems to have been Trump's CFO

01:20:40.240 | Weisselberg, who's I think in jail right now for other

01:20:42.960 | charges, outlining the terms of the payments to Michael Cohen,

01:20:48.720 | the disgraced lying attorney who recorded Trump's

01:20:52.400 | conversations. And that's I think all I can tell you about

01:20:59.040 | this, except for maybe the sentencing is coming up. It's

01:21:02.960 | going to be July 11, which is but four days before the RNC.

01:21:07.520 | Clearly a sad day for America. I'm not sure if anybody on the

01:21:11.760 | panel has any opinions on the Trump verdict, but let's just

01:21:15.520 | randomly start with you, David. Any thoughts on Trump being

01:21:19.360 | convicted of 34 felonies in this case?

01:21:22.640 | Well, first of all, in terms of understanding this case, I

01:21:25.680 | think it's important to understand that both Merrick

01:21:28.240 | Garland's DOJ and former Manhattan DA Cyrus Vance, they

01:21:32.240 | looked at this case, they looked at these charges, and they

01:21:34.640 | passed on bringing this case. Alvin Bragg, who's a Soros

01:21:38.960 | funded DA, he won a hotly contested race to succeed Vance

01:21:43.280 | by pledging to get Trump. And that's why he brought this case.

01:21:46.880 | And in order to bring these charges, he had to use a

01:21:50.720 | creative legal formula that turned a misdemeanor charge of

01:21:54.640 | falsifying business records, a charge that would have been

01:21:57.200 | passed the statute of limitations into a felony by

01:22:00.720 | claiming it was in the service of a second crime. But he never

01:22:04.080 | named exactly what that crime was, or proved that it happened.

01:22:08.080 | And I think it's safe to say that a case like this, which is

01:22:10.400 | novel and creative and torturous, would never have been

01:22:14.880 | brought against anybody but Trump. Now, there's about five

01:22:18.800 | different grounds for appeal on this. Number one, the judge is a

01:22:21.920 | Biden donor with a daughter who works for Biden. Number two,

01:22:25.280 | prejudicial and irrelevant evidence was admitted that

01:22:28.320 | should have been excluded, including Stormy Daniels

01:22:30.640 | testimony. Number three, Trump was not able to call his expert

01:22:34.080 | in election law, former head of FEC, Bradley Smith. Number

01:22:38.240 | four, the prosecution never named the second crime. And then

01:22:42.480 | number five, the judge let the jury pick from a range of

01:22:45.360 | options for what the second crime might be, including tax

01:22:49.200 | crimes, which no evidence was presented, and federal election

01:22:52.000 | crimes, which the court had no jurisdiction. So, my guess is

01:22:55.680 | that at the end of the day, this case is going to get tossed on

01:22:58.080 | appeal, but that's probably going to happen after the

01:23:00.480 | election, after November 5th, and Democrats now have what they

01:23:04.000 | wanted. They wanted to get out of this case four words,

01:23:07.440 | Donald Trump convicted felon, and you're going to be hearing

01:23:10.560 | that phrase, convicted felon repeated ad nauseum from now

01:23:14.160 | until November 5. And I think that's the whole point of this

01:23:17.120 | case.

01:23:17.680 | Freeberg, your take.

01:23:18.640 | No, I mean, it felt like this was always a win win trial for

01:23:22.560 | Trump if he gets convicted, then, you know, the conversation

01:23:28.880 | that we're hearing now, you know, this was an unfair

01:23:30.960 | conviction. How could they do this? This is lawfare. And if he

01:23:35.840 | doesn't get convicted, they tried to burn him at the stake.

01:23:40.000 | How could they try and do that? Clearly, he's innocent. He was

01:23:42.240 | made innocent. So, you know, it never really struck me as being

01:23:46.240 | a smart, I'm not a political guy, but the political calculus

01:23:49.120 | just seemed off on this entirely. It certainly wasn't

01:23:52.240 | clear what they were trying to accomplish. Either way, Trump

01:23:55.440 | looks good. And I think we saw tonight reports that his

01:23:59.680 | website for making donations crashed. A lot of people started

01:24:03.840 | making public statements on Twitter that are not typically

01:24:07.360 | Republican donors, that they're donating a lot of money to

01:24:10.320 | Donald Trump coming out of this. And so it is clearly infuriating

01:24:13.440 | a lot of people that as Saks points out, you know, something

01:24:17.280 | that some people are considering to be, you know, a bookkeeping

01:24:19.920 | or accounting crime has turned into 34 felony convictions. It

01:24:23.760 | feels unfair, it feels like the wrong decision. And it's going

01:24:27.520 | to infuriate people because people worry about the quality

01:24:29.840 | of the justice system. Anyone who's sitting in the middle, as

01:24:32.640 | an independent or an undecided, I think it is much more likely

01:24:36.000 | that they're going to have sympathy for Donald Trump coming

01:24:38.000 | out of this not admonishment.

01:24:39.520 | Shamaf, your take.

01:24:40.720 | I think that if you went into this, looking to confirm your

01:24:45.840 | hatred of President Trump, you you were the one that was given

01:24:51.360 | red meat. And I think that if you were undecided, or pro

01:24:56.880 | President Trump, you probably found more reason to support him

01:25:00.720 | for all the reasons that Friedberg said. The thing that's

01:25:04.320 | unique about this specific trial, that I found rather

01:25:09.120 | interesting, was the diversity of people who just couldn't

01:25:14.480 | understand what this trial was about, whether it was Bill Barr,

01:25:18.880 | who worked for him, but was not a huge fan of his nor was, you

01:25:23.120 | know, Trump, or vice versa, right, to an Alan Dershowitz to

01:25:28.720 | Cyrus Vance, you had Democrats and Republicans and

01:25:31.680 | independents, legal scholars, legal experts, some who like

01:25:37.200 | President Trump, some who did not, some who got along with

01:25:39.520 | him, some who did not, some who fought with him, some who did

01:25:41.680 | not, some who got fired by him, some who did not. And they were

01:25:46.080 | all categorically confused about what this whole thing was

01:25:48.800 | about. I'm not legally well versed enough to understand what

01:25:53.920 | it was. So as a layman, you then tend to go to this next

01:25:58.640 | obvious thing, which is you have to bucket this decision as

01:26:02.400 | here are some experts, and what they know is better than what I

01:26:07.760 | know. And we talked about this earlier on the pod today, when

01:26:10.720 | it came to Fauci, and it turned out to not be so true. Or you go

01:26:14.320 | to this other place where are there systems of government

01:26:17.760 | that can be convoluted and turned in the favor of the

01:26:21.840 | majority who's in power against someone that they feel is a

01:26:26.160 | threat. And we've talked about that as well, with respect to

01:26:28.480 | how some of these governmental institutions have targeted some

01:26:31.600 | of our friends. So I think that we're in a very precarious

01:26:36.640 | moment where the systems of governments in the United States

01:26:42.080 | are a little bit more fragile than they were the moment.

01:26:44.560 | Okay, if people are wondering what the case is actually about

01:26:48.560 | falsifying business records, this is a pretty serious crime,

01:26:51.600 | in New York City. Basically, when people don't keep correct

01:26:56.080 | records, when they're committing crimes, this is taken seriously

01:27:00.400 | in New York, because it is the financial capital of the world.

01:27:02.960 | They've got a long history, whether it's, you know, Bernie

01:27:07.040 | Madoff, Enron, etc, of pursuing these, I don't know why this

01:27:12.000 | didn't get communicated well to the public. But there were

01:27:16.400 | obviously tons of business records falsified here. And they

01:27:19.920 | basically admitted to it, Michael Cohen had pleaded

01:27:22.080 | guilty to it already. And so it really feels like a

01:27:25.920 | misdemeanor. And then to understand what happened after

01:27:30.080 | that, there is a law in New York, as Saks correctly pointed

01:27:34.320 | out on top of the falsifying of business records, which New York

01:27:36.880 | takes deadly seriously. And they put this in every indictment

01:27:40.240 | when people do it because they want the accountants, lawyers,

01:27:43.840 | CFOs to behave themselves and not cheat the public. The

01:27:49.200 | election interference also taken very seriously in New York,

01:27:51.600 | there's been tons of cases, again, typically minor things,

01:27:55.200 | but people who do things like try to stuff ballots, etc. And

01:28:00.160 | so you put those two together. If you do falsifying, if you

01:28:04.800 | falsify business records, and you do it as part of a second

01:28:07.360 | crime, which he did, which he was convicted of, then you get

01:28:10.800 | these penalties. So that is the explanation of the case. That

01:28:14.160 | was why he was found guilty. It's pretty easy to figure this

01:28:17.520 | all out. If you don't know all this, it's because you didn't

01:28:19.760 | take the time to read anything about the case. In terms of the

01:28:24.160 | basic heuristics of it, which I think is because people are

01:28:27.680 | burned out on this. Trump has committed so many misdemeanors

01:28:31.440 | and crimes over time that we're kind of used to it. And you

01:28:34.480 | know, my personal take on it, and I'll just leave it at this

01:28:37.360 | is I think it's going to be a speeding ticket. I do think it's

01:28:40.400 | going to get overturned. I think Trump has done this his

01:28:43.200 | whole career. I lived in New York, all these real estate

01:28:46.720 | guys were doing all these kind of like little ticky tacky

01:28:49.760 | cheating things. And I do think that this was politically

01:28:54.560 | motivated. What was the second crime, Jacob, you if you

01:28:57.280 | understand election interference, election, what is

01:29:00.720 | that you're not allowed to interfere with election. So the

01:29:03.280 | theory here, which the you know, the jury unanimously voted in

01:29:09.680 | front of in over the six or seven weeks, election

01:29:14.720 | interference was because Trump was in dire straits. He after

01:29:21.840 | the access Hollywood tape came out that weekend, when he

01:29:26.160 | admitted to assaulting women, the grab them by the blank came

01:29:30.080 | out. His team, in this case, admitted including his

01:29:34.880 | assistant, Michael Cohen, Alan Weisselberg, and of course, the

01:29:38.320 | guy from the National Enquirer, Pecker, all of them agreed,

01:29:42.560 | testified, and just were completely honest that this

01:29:46.720 | payment and the reason they bought these people off was

01:29:50.480 | because they were scared that it would reduce his chances of

01:29:55.200 | being elected. They were in panic mode. They all testify to

01:29:58.400 | that. The jury found that they committed these crimes, the

01:30:02.960 | falsifying of business records in order to save his election

01:30:05.920 | chances. So that is the legal concept. This legal concept was

01:30:10.160 | available to everybody for the last you know, since it's been

01:30:13.200 | filed in the New York Times, anybody who doesn't read these

01:30:17.600 | basic things and comments on this case is just a partisan who

01:30:21.200 | doesn't want to accept the reality that these are actual

01:30:24.320 | legal concepts that are completely valid. Now, I do

01:30:27.520 | think despite all of that, and me making it abundantly clear to

01:30:31.600 | anybody that you don't want people falsifying business

01:30:33.840 | records, and you also don't want anybody interfering in

01:30:37.120 | elections, I do think it was politically motivated. So you

01:30:39.600 | got to keep two things in your mind at the same time. It's

01:30:42.480 | politically motivated. Trump commits crimes regularly often,

01:30:46.720 | but they don't want to reverse you just said it was going to

01:30:49.520 | be reversed on appeal. So if you're so confident it's a

01:30:52.080 | crime, then why do you also say it's going to get reversed?

01:30:54.000 | Yeah, because I think well, I'll let me restate that. I

01:30:57.440 | think he's going to get a speeding ticket. I don't think

01:30:59.520 | the case is going to reverse. I think there's going to be some

01:31:01.440 | sort of a pardon now that this is a state kind of situation.

01:31:04.320 | So it wouldn't be Biden who would pardon it, it would be

01:31:06.320 | the the governor. And I think what's going to happen is

01:31:09.840 | somebody like Trump, Teflon Don, he's called that for a

01:31:12.800 | reason. He gets away with it every time he's rich, he's

01:31:15.440 | powerful, like all rich and powerful people, you have to

01:31:18.080 | really do something heinous to wind up in jail. So I think

01:31:20.480 | it's going to be a speeding ticket. I do think the the

01:31:23.520 | documents cases, that one is a pretty legitimate one with

01:31:27.360 | obstruction. And I do think the election interference, those

01:31:30.160 | are the two he should be really worried about, because if he is

01:31:32.320 | found guilty on those, those are legit. But I do think this

01:31:35.920 | country is going to need to come together. I hate to be the

01:31:37.840 | bigger person here. But I do think the company, the country

01:31:40.960 | needs to get together and get us to new candidates. And we

01:31:44.560 | can't be having this lawfare and politically motivated

01:31:48.640 | lawsuits every time somebody loses or they're afraid of

01:31:51.440 | losing an election. But let me ask you a question, Jason,

01:31:55.120 | you're a you're a you're a famous, successful person. And

01:31:58.480 | over the next 10 or 20 years, the odds are pretty good,

01:32:00.720 | you'll be more famous, more successful, say more Chema,

01:32:04.800 | do you feel? Do you feel the less the same or more? Okay,

01:32:09.680 | you have to say less same or more. Okay, somebody in

01:32:12.480 | government doesn't like what you're up to. After today, are

01:32:16.400 | you less the same or more in terms of the risk that the laws

01:32:20.880 | could be used to fight you?

01:32:22.720 | I think we're kind of in the same area. I think there's

01:32:26.800 | always been politically motivated prosecutions that

01:32:30.080 | have occurred. That's part of, you know, the flaw in our legal

01:32:33.120 | system. And I do think appeals, pardons exist as the the

01:32:37.360 | relief valve for those things. And I think for rich and

01:32:39.920 | powerful people with great representation, they always get

01:32:42.320 | off unless they've done something incredibly,

01:32:44.880 | incredibly heinous. And I don't think this is incredibly

01:32:47.600 | heinous. And so when it's framed as simply, oh, it's a

01:32:52.000 | porn star, he banged the porn star, who cares? It was

01:32:55.600 | consensual, and she got to pay off or maybe she was extorting

01:33:00.560 | him, even, you know, I don't know if those details were ever

01:33:03.520 | determined, if you could frame it as extortion or not. I think

01:33:07.600 | none of that matters. Like this, this falsifying business

01:33:10.640 | records thing is just something they did, they should just own

01:33:15.600 | it, they should have just pled it out. And it should have

01:33:18.560 | probably never been escalated to the next level with the

01:33:21.920 | election interference. I thought that was a little bit of

01:33:23.600 | a stretch, but not that much escalated because Alvin Bragg

01:33:27.040 | got elected to pursue this case.

01:33:29.040 | And that's the only way you could get it from a misdemeanor

01:33:31.120 | to a felon.

01:33:31.760 | Yeah, exactly. So I think that is part of the

01:33:35.440 | I know you're really giddy about this, Jake, how I can hear

01:33:38.960 | your voice.

01:33:39.760 | No, I'm not. Honestly, I wish you're doing. No, sorry, sex,

01:33:44.560 | you don't get to say I'm giddy. I'm not going to tell you how

01:33:46.640 | you feel. You don't get to tell me how I feel. I actually am

01:33:48.960 | sad for America. I'm sad for America. That Trump and Biden

01:33:53.200 | are our choices.

01:33:54.080 | Okay, great.

01:33:54.640 | So speak for yourself, not for me.

01:33:56.640 | Okay, great. Well, maybe I'm just detecting enthusiasm in

01:33:59.360 | your voice. I'm not quite sure.

01:34:00.160 | No enthusiasm, not at all.

01:34:01.760 | You're presenting these documents on the screen that are

01:34:04.480 | basically from Alvin Bragg's case, it's all you're doing is

01:34:07.120 | repeating his theory of the case, which I must say is

01:34:11.280 | extremely tortured. And it's novel. I don't think a case like

01:34:14.800 | this ever been brought. And if you are going to bring a case

01:34:17.360 | against a former president, it should be for something more

01:34:20.640 | than ticky tacky type stuff, stuff that you yourself admit is

01:34:24.240 | politically motivated. It's obvious. Bragg was out to get

01:34:28.080 | Trump. This is a campaign strategy. You have to bend the

01:34:32.240 | law into a pretzel to create the case that you're describing.

01:34:36.560 | Listen, you know, I think Trump will continue to do these.

01:34:39.360 | He's had these long before he was in public office. He got

01:34:42.160 | tons of speeding tickets like this, he'll get them after he's

01:34:44.640 | out of office. He's always committed crimes. He's always

01:34:46.720 | done what this reminds me of is, you remember Ken Starr and

01:34:50.240 | what they went after Bill Clinton for with the whole

01:34:52.080 | Monica Lewinsky thing? Sure. And when that star report

01:34:55.040 | dropped, you know, and then hundreds of pages of

01:34:57.120 | legalities, and they described all the prurient behavior and,

01:35:01.440 | you know, amazing amounts of detail. At the end of the day,

01:35:04.320 | the American people looked at it and decided that maybe

01:35:08.400 | there's a tawdry element to this, but it's personal

01:35:10.800 | behavior. And after some period of time, Clinton's popularity

01:35:15.440 | rebounded, and he actually gained seats in the midterms

01:35:17.840 | because the Republicans overplayed their hand. Yeah,

01:35:19.920 | totally. And I think in a similar way, it's very clear to

01:35:23.120 | me. And in fact, you've already said this is politically

01:35:25.280 | motivated. And they basically have taken some sort of

01:35:28.720 | bookkeeping error that was a misdemeanor that was passed the

01:35:32.720 | statute of limitations. And they've combined it again with

01:35:35.360 | this very novel legal theory about somehow committing

01:35:38.320 | fraud in the election, which, by the way, was not actually

01:35:40.880 | proven in the case. And as part of the jury instructions,

01:35:44.800 | again, the judge allowed the jury to have a multiple choice

01:35:50.640 | on what the second crime was, which is what a lot of legal

01:35:53.440 | experts think will become the basis for appeal. So again,

01:35:56.960 | this whole case was tortured, it was politically motivated. I

01:36:01.040 | would go so far as to say it's a sham. It's an outrage. And I

01:36:04.320 | think people are reacting as though it's an outrage. And

01:36:06.880 | again, if you're going to bring a case, not just against a

01:36:09.360 | former president, but the current front runner to be the

01:36:12.640 | next president, it better be something important. Not this

01:36:17.440 | ticky tacky thing that the way you describe it as being

01:36:20.720 | ticky tacky. Why even waste the public's time with this? Why

01:36:24.000 | even spend all the money pursuing this? I think I told

01:36:26.880 | you why be? Yeah, no, Donald Trump convicted felon. That's

01:36:30.240 | the reason why the media wants that talking point. And by the

01:36:33.600 | way, if you want to make a switcheroo and get a different

01:36:35.440 | candidate than Joe Biden, that's not going to happen now

01:36:37.920 | because Democrats in the media think that this is their

01:36:41.920 | salvation. They know the running candidate. It's not

01:36:44.640 | going to be. The obstruction case and the January 6th case,

01:36:48.400 | that is, those are legit cases. They should have just gone

01:36:50.800 | after those because those are the ones that are completely

01:36:52.720 | legit. But here we are. The Democrat party knows the

01:36:55.920 | running candidate who can't debate, who can't put two

01:36:58.320 | sentences together, who can barely find his way off a stage,

01:37:01.920 | whose policies are coming home to roost. The economy, like we

01:37:04.560 | talked about on the show, is slowing down very rapidly. His

01:37:08.080 | foreign policy is a disaster. But they think that somehow this

01:37:11.680 | is going to be his salvation is being able to say that Donald

01:37:16.080 | Trump is a felon. That's their plan. And I think at the end of

01:37:20.320 | the day, this is probably not going to work. All right, there

01:37:22.720 | you have it, folks. There's your quick hot take around the

01:37:25.440 | horn with your bestie on Trump being convicted by a jury in

01:37:30.320 | New York today. He'll be sentenced on July 11th, and

01:37:34.720 | we'll see what happens there. The market also, after we talked

01:37:38.320 | about Salesforce, a bunch of the SAS companies took a dive in

01:37:42.080 | the after hours. Freeberg, any thoughts there? Because we

01:37:44.640 | quickly are not just SAS, but also Dell. And in particular,

01:37:48.880 | Dell reported their stock is down 20% after hours. So I do

01:37:52.960 | wonder if there is a slow reckoning underway right now in

01:37:56.000 | technology. That's as we talked about in the show, a function of

01:38:00.240 | both kind of an economic slowdown. So enterprises making

01:38:02.880 | fewer investments, but they were they clearly called out the

01:38:06.320 | increased cost associated with AI. So they are spending quite

01:38:10.320 | a lot and their, their cogs on AI systems is much higher. And

01:38:15.040 | so they're showing I mean, cash burn. And I think this is a

01:38:18.160 | point you must been talking for a while. It's unsustainable,

01:38:20.640 | guys. I've been saying this now for a month. So let's just be

01:38:22.960 | precise again. You cannot spend this kind of money and show no

01:38:26.960 | incremental revenue potential. So while this is incredible for

01:38:30.960 | Nvidia, the chicken is coming home to roost. Because if you do

01:38:35.120 | not start seeing revenue flow to the bottom line of these

01:38:37.760 | companies that are spending $26 billion a quarter, the market

01:38:42.480 | cap of Nvidia is not what the market cap of Nvidia should be.

01:38:45.360 | And all of these other companies are going to get

01:38:47.680 | punished for spending this kind of money. Now, Dell is a unique

01:38:50.720 | example in the sense that I actually think it's a

01:38:52.480 | beneficiary of spend. And I think that it will build data

01:38:56.080 | centers. And it will actually do well in the move to AI because

01:39:00.560 | it's a very smartly positioned pick and shovels provider. But

01:39:05.760 | the threshold question is, where are all these newfangled

01:39:08.960 | things that we're supposed to see that justifies $100 billion

01:39:12.160 | of chip spending your $200 billion of energy spend $100

01:39:17.200 | billion of all this other stuff, guys, this is, we're now

01:39:20.320 | spending $750 billion. This is on the order of a national

01:39:26.800 | transfer payment. And we've seen nothing to show for it except

01:39:30.400 | that you can mimic somebody's voice. And you can make like a

01:39:34.640 | cat.

01:39:34.880 | I mean, making a developer 30 or 40% more efficient, that's

01:39:39.440 | actually legit. But I will say I didn't get either. No, that's

01:39:43.200 | total. No, no, that's happening in startups right now. I'm

01:39:46.000 | seeing startups with four developers do what just a couple

01:39:48.800 | of years ago, they would need a to do there. And that's the

01:39:50.960 | premise of your company. I think that developers can go faster

01:39:54.480 | with these tools that these are, yes, but these are aspirational

01:39:57.200 | things. When you take a, for example, a 30,000 person

01:40:00.320 | company, it is not true that those engineers now are now all

01:40:03.920 | of a sudden, as productive as 130,000 employees, it's not even

01:40:07.440 | true that 1000 employee company is as productive as a 4000

01:40:11.200 | person company. And the reason is for one very specific thing.

01:40:15.200 | Even as all of these next generation, next generation

01:40:18.160 | models get released, the practical threshold problem is

01:40:21.280 | when you introduce a completely new way of doing things into an

01:40:26.800 | existing workforce, what happens is people push back. And even in

01:40:30.000 | the companies that I own, where I could theoretically mandate,

01:40:32.320 | you must use these tools, because I am the owner of this

01:40:34.960 | company. It doesn't happen. And so I think what you're really

01:40:39.840 | seeing, Jason is a few people embrace it. Those people may be

01:40:43.280 | 50 to 100% more productive. But when you blend that into the

01:40:46.880 | entire workforce, it's still a single digit percentage, which

01:40:49.840 | means the productivity gains are nominal. Yeah, I think it's a

01:40:53.040 | fair point. Because I'm forced to spend Yeah, again, $750

01:40:57.760 | billion a year, it doesn't all hang together yet.

01:41:01.120 | Yeah, I agree. There's going to be a bit of a gap there. And I

01:41:04.880 | am biased, because I see startups, which are always

01:41:07.200 | looking for the most resourceful way to do things. And you're

01:41:09.360 | talking about large enterprises, which are slow to adopt, right?

01:41:12.320 | So I think we're both to be right here. Yeah.

01:41:14.720 | You get around the innovators dilemma by saying, guys, you

01:41:17.520 | need to be AI first, from the outset, which a startup can do

01:41:21.120 | because they can, they can recruit people that, for example,

01:41:24.240 | with 8090, same thing, you must use these tools. For example, we

01:41:27.840 | are not allowed to have any administrative staff. Everything

01:41:30.880 | is done by an agent or workflow. But that's because we're a new

01:41:34.160 | company, and we can make those decisions. But somebody who is

01:41:37.520 | an established company, I suspect that these that these

01:41:41.200 | gains are nominal at best, yet the spend is outrageous, and it

01:41:45.360 | gets okay. And when it catches up with you, when you report, I

01:41:48.960 | think the market is sort of like, I think the first, you

01:41:52.480 | know, the general statement might be made that perhaps the

01:41:55.520 | first AI mini bubble is bursting a bit. And particularly with

01:42:00.400 | respect to the accelerated expectations that public market

01:42:04.080 | investors had for public market technology stocks, that perhaps

01:42:07.680 | now is the time for a bit of a reckoning, that perhaps this

01:42:10.400 | isn't going to happen at the same margin level, or the pace

01:42:13.040 | that folks had modeled. And this is going to cause a bit of a

01:42:15.920 | setback. I think pace is a very good point you're making. I also

01:42:19.040 | think that with the GDP slowdown that we've seen report that just

01:42:22.000 | came out this week, with a sub 2% US GDP growth, we are seeing

01:42:26.160 | an economic slowdown underway, there is going to be reduced

01:42:28.560 | spending, there is going to be reduced conversion of enterprise

01:42:31.040 | customers to buy anything. And so that is going to dramatically

01:42:35.360 | affect the market, we're looking at 5% 30 year treasury rates,

01:42:38.480 | which means that you are going to see multiple compression,

01:42:41.040 | that's going to happen across the market for tech stocks. So

01:42:44.400 | this could be the beginning of what I think might be a slow

01:42:46.480 | contraction. One thing I just want to make sure I'm not a

01:42:49.120 | market. One thing to me, I do have some information on the

01:42:52.400 | Dell stuff. One thing to keep in mind is they had like a 30%

01:42:55.920 | run up, or 20% run up, at least since NVIDIA CEO praise them,

01:43:03.280 | and like, I guess all these meme stock people's just jumped in.

01:43:06.560 | So I think it's just like a little ticky tacky correction

01:43:09.600 | back to the ticky tacky. sacks any final thoughts here on AI

01:43:12.880 | before we all leave to go to our you know, Trump celebrations

01:43:19.600 | and or yeah,

01:43:22.240 | maybe the market doesn't like the US becoming a banana

01:43:25.440 | republic.

01:43:25.920 | There it is, folks.

01:43:27.040 | I can still be friends with you guys. All right, everybody for

01:43:34.960 | who's you guys? Oh, you guys? I was talking to those guys.

01:43:40.160 | All right, for two months, two missing buttons. We'd like to

01:43:44.720 | encourage everybody to enjoy their summer. Three buttons are

01:43:47.760 | coming on we got short shorts. I got my shorts. Oh, God, that's

01:43:52.800 | so pasty white. I gotta get my sunglasses. The over under on

01:43:56.240 | when Chamath goes for the third button is Jan is June 25. So

01:43:59.680 | June 25 in the betting markets right now for the third button.

01:44:03.680 | Love you guys. We'll see you all next time on the world's

01:44:07.440 | greatest podcast. Bye bye. Let your winners ride. Rain Man

01:44:14.320 | David Sachs. We open source it to the fans and they've just gone

01:44:21.120 | crazy with it. Love you. I squeened up

01:44:30.960 | besties are my dog taking a notice your driveway.

01:44:35.760 | We should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy

01:44:44.080 | because they're all just useless. It's like this like

01:44:45.920 | sexual tension that they just need to release somehow.

01:44:49.120 | You're about to be

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01:45:57.280 | bucks to just make sure you show up and there's an All in

01:45:59.600 | Summit ticket there for you. You can actually see the video

01:46:02.000 | of this podcast on YouTube, youtube.com slash at all in or

01:46:06.640 | just search all in podcast and hit the alert bell and you'll

01:46:10.320 | get updates when we post and we're going to do a party in

01:46:14.080 | Vegas. My understanding when we hit a million subscribers and

01:46:17.360 | look for that as well. You can follow us on x x.com slash the

01:46:21.600 | all in pod. Tick tock is all underscore in underscore talk

01:46:25.920 | Instagram, the all in pod. And on LinkedIn, just search for the

01:46:29.600 | all in podcast. You can follow chamath@x.com slash chamath. And

01:46:33.840 | you can sign up for a sub stack at chamath.substack.com I do

01:46:37.600 | free bird can be followed at x.com slash free bird and Ohalo

01:46:40.880 | is hiring click on the careers page at Ohalo genetics.com 32

01:46:45.760 | Okay, everybody follow sacks at x.com slash David Sachs and

01:46:49.280 | check out saxes slack killer glue at glue.ai I'm Jason

01:46:54.800 | Calacanis. I am x.com slash Jason. And if you want to see

01:46:58.560 | pictures of my bulldogs and the food I'm eating, go to

01:47:01.200 | instagram.com slash Jason in the first name club. You can listen

01:47:05.120 | to my other podcast this week in startups to search for it on

01:47:08.240 | YouTube or your favorite podcast player. We are hiring a

01:47:11.040 | researcher apply to be a researcher doing primary

01:47:14.400 | research and working with me and producer Nick working in data

01:47:17.360 | and science and being able to do great research, finance, etc.

01:47:21.360 | All in podcast.co slash research. It's a full time job

01:47:24.480 | working with us the besties and really excited about my

01:47:28.080 | investment in Athena go to Athena. Wow. See no wow.com and

01:47:33.280 | get yourself a bit of a discount from your boy j cow.

01:47:36.800 | You know, wow.com. We'll see you all next time on the all in

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