How Do We Respond When a Pastor Leaves the Faith?

00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)

00:00:02.580 | - Pastor John and I recently recorded a few episodes

00:00:07.480 | of this podcast live in Nashville

00:00:10.480 | in front of about 2,500 friends

00:00:12.440 | who joined us early in the morning for the recording.

00:00:14.560 | I know a number of you who listened were there.

00:00:17.120 | So grateful to have you there in person and to see you.

00:00:19.920 | There in Nashville, we addressed

00:00:22.840 | one of the most common questions that you've been asking,

00:00:25.640 | that you've been sending to us.

00:00:27.440 | Have a listen.

00:00:28.280 | - Why is that I read the emails that come in

00:00:29.900 | and hear from podcast listeners,

00:00:31.320 | there's nothing that dominates the conversation right now

00:00:34.160 | than the fact that a very prominent leader

00:00:36.600 | within our circles has quote unquote, deconverted.

00:00:40.160 | You know him, he was my pastor for four years,

00:00:44.360 | a beloved pastor.

00:00:45.560 | A lot of people just don't know how to handle the news.

00:00:49.120 | Online, there's a lot of hand wringing and finger pointing.

00:00:52.440 | Is this big American evangelical celebrity culture

00:00:56.600 | gone wrong?

00:00:57.840 | Is this the consequence of huge reform conferences

00:01:00.780 | even like this one?

00:01:02.720 | Is this the backlash of the repressive purity movement

00:01:07.720 | gone wrong?

00:01:08.560 | Is this a leader who was given too much responsibility,

00:01:12.560 | too young, on and on.

00:01:14.320 | There's lots of finger pointing,

00:01:15.720 | but I've noticed a different tone

00:01:17.140 | among self reflective leaders.

00:01:19.400 | And that is, they realize this could be me.

00:01:23.400 | If he could fall, this could be me.

00:01:26.000 | So what would you say to those of us in this room

00:01:28.280 | who have a healthy distrust of our own hearts,

00:01:31.440 | who look at this man who has now walked away

00:01:34.720 | from the gospel, and we say, could this happen to me too?

00:01:39.000 | Could I one day walk away from the gospel,

00:01:41.280 | walk away from my spouse, walk away from Christ?

00:01:44.400 | What would you say?

00:01:45.360 | >> The short answer is yes.

00:01:47.880 | And the interesting thing about that answer

00:01:53.680 | is that for a lot of people,

00:01:55.360 | it seems to call into question

00:01:57.800 | the doctrine of eternal security,

00:01:59.920 | which I believe.

00:02:02.760 | It shouldn't call into question

00:02:06.680 | the doctrine of eternal security to say,

00:02:09.280 | yes, I could commit apostasy this afternoon

00:02:15.240 | and go to hell.

00:02:16.600 | I wonder if that's a jarring juxtaposition for you.

00:02:21.480 | I believe in the doctrine of eternal security.

00:02:24.000 | I could go to hell this afternoon.

00:02:27.280 | Let me give some background and then try to

00:02:32.080 | maybe say one or two helpful things

00:02:33.440 | about our present situation.

00:02:35.020 | I just finished a book on providence

00:02:38.400 | and just brimming with the sovereignty of God.

00:02:43.040 | I love the sovereignty of God.

00:02:44.600 | I see it on almost every page in the Bible.

00:02:46.800 | It is a precious, precious doctrine to me.

00:02:50.240 | And one of the ways to say it is

00:02:54.400 | nothing you do

00:03:00.400 | originates

00:03:05.760 | the decisive act or impulse

00:03:09.760 | that saves you.

00:03:10.940 | I think that's the wording I would use.

00:03:16.360 | Nothing you feel,

00:03:18.440 | nothing you think,

00:03:20.640 | nothing you will,

00:03:22.620 | nothing you do

00:03:24.240 | originates

00:03:26.960 | the act of the soul

00:03:29.520 | or the act of the body

00:03:32.200 | that causes God to elect you,

00:03:36.480 | predestine you,

00:03:38.640 | call you,

00:03:40.640 | keep you,

00:03:42.200 | or glorify you.

00:03:45.920 | All of it is a free gift.

00:03:49.760 | So nobody should have the mindset,

00:03:56.960 | I can keep this from happening.

00:03:59.960 | I can.

00:04:01.880 | No, you can't.

00:04:05.320 | God can.

00:04:06.160 | Now, once you say that,

00:04:10.480 | it can throw you really off balance.

00:04:13.320 | Like if you think you're in charge of your salvation

00:04:16.800 | and you hear somebody say,

00:04:18.080 | you're not, God is,

00:04:20.040 | it can make you feel unstable.

00:04:23.400 | To replace your sense of self-stability

00:04:29.280 | with God's stability

00:04:31.000 | requires some Bible knowledge

00:04:32.880 | and some prayer and some deep soul work.

00:04:38.080 | Then you need to go to texts like,

00:04:41.040 | those whom he foreknew, he predestined

00:04:43.720 | to be conformed to the image of his son,

00:04:45.840 | that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

00:04:49.760 | And those whom he predestined, he also called.

00:04:53.040 | And those whom he called, he also justified.

00:04:56.560 | And those whom he justified, he also glorified.

00:05:01.560 | Nobody falls out.

00:05:03.720 | That's why I believe in eternal security.

00:05:05.760 | Between foreknowledge, predestination,

00:05:10.360 | calling, justification, and glorification,

00:05:13.880 | nobody will be missing, none.

00:05:17.640 | That's rock solid security and assurance.

00:05:24.160 | Or, he who began a good work in you

00:05:27.280 | will bring it to completion at the day of Christ.

00:05:29.960 | He will, Philippians 1:6.

00:05:32.720 | Or, God is faithful.

00:05:34.880 | He who called you will do it, 1 Corinthians 1:8.

00:05:40.600 | Or, same thing in 1 Thessalonians.

00:05:45.040 | He will complete the work he began in you

00:05:48.200 | and present you blameless before God.

00:05:52.280 | Over and over, these statements,

00:05:55.080 | you are secure in Christ,

00:05:59.520 | but your security is totally in the hands of God.

00:06:05.680 | If God is faithful to you, you will make it.

00:06:10.200 | If you don't make it, he didn't cause you to make it.

00:06:15.360 | So that's foundational to what I believe and think.

00:06:21.880 | Now here's the second piece of it

00:06:23.960 | after that massive God piece.

00:06:27.360 | Alongside those whom he justified, he glorified,

00:06:34.040 | there is a whole range of commands for us to persevere.

00:06:39.040 | You don't just have commands like,

00:06:46.680 | now unto him who is able to keep you from falling

00:06:51.360 | and to present you without blemish,

00:06:54.560 | with joy before the throne of his glory.

00:06:58.240 | To him be glory and majesty,

00:07:00.040 | dominion and power forever and ever, amen.

00:07:03.120 | Jude chapter one, verses 24 and 25.

00:07:05.800 | Why that tremendous celebration of God's keeping power?

00:07:10.160 | It's 'cause I'll never make it.

00:07:11.840 | I will never make it.

00:07:14.360 | At 73, I go to my knees almost every day and say,

00:07:18.600 | hold on to me.

00:07:19.960 | The remaining corruption in every human being's soul

00:07:26.800 | is enough to make money more precious than God at age 74.

00:07:32.800 | And 67 years in the faith.

00:07:35.160 | It is, sin is that powerful

00:07:37.640 | if you leave God out of the picture.

00:07:40.280 | God keeps John Piper and if God doesn't keep me,

00:07:44.320 | if he takes his hand off me this afternoon,

00:07:46.600 | I will commit apostasy.

00:07:49.480 | So it depends on him, not on me.

00:07:51.920 | Now here come these commands,

00:07:54.480 | work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

00:07:57.960 | For God is at work in you to will

00:07:59.880 | and to work his good pleasure.

00:08:01.360 | So be about it, Piper.

00:08:02.920 | Get this book open, get on your knees,

00:08:05.560 | cry out for keeping and immerse yourself in God's faith,

00:08:10.560 | comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God every day,

00:08:13.880 | not just at the front end of the Christian life.

00:08:16.600 | If I'm gonna believe, I gotta have word.

00:08:19.400 | That's how he keeps me.

00:08:22.560 | Or that passage in Philippians three that I love so much,

00:08:27.480 | I press on.

00:08:30.440 | I press on to make it my own

00:08:32.880 | because he has made me his own.

00:08:34.680 | Isn't that great?

00:08:36.960 | That's the way we think about the Christian life,

00:08:40.800 | that there's this massive sovereign God

00:08:43.720 | who has chosen us before the foundation of the world,

00:08:46.160 | who has called us to himself, who will keep us.

00:08:49.960 | The evidence that that has happened is,

00:08:52.840 | are you pressing on?

00:08:54.160 | Are you pressing on?

00:08:57.720 | And then there are the verses that explain

00:09:01.200 | the pastors who don't press on.

00:09:04.760 | They went out from us

00:09:08.360 | because they were not of us.

00:09:13.880 | If they had been of us, they would not have gone out,

00:09:18.160 | but they went out that it may be clear

00:09:22.120 | that they were not of us.

00:09:25.000 | I mean, there couldn't be a clearer verse in the Bible

00:09:27.400 | on apostasy than 1 John 2,19.

00:09:31.200 | Or Hebrews 3,14.

00:09:35.840 | We are in Christ.

00:09:39.640 | We have shared in Christ.

00:09:42.520 | If we continue faithful to the end.

00:09:45.920 | We have shared if we continue.

00:09:48.200 | Not we will share.

00:09:49.360 | We have shared if we can continue.

00:09:52.040 | So I've been thinking recently

00:09:54.720 | in view of the present situation,

00:09:57.800 | I mean, it happens all the time.

00:09:58.920 | It's not, it's just,

00:10:00.560 | this one just happens to be a little more public.

00:10:03.000 | Jesus addressed

00:10:06.120 | physical calamities very clearly in Luke 13.

00:10:13.400 | And I just thought to myself,

00:10:14.720 | I wonder if it applies properly to spiritual calamities.

00:10:18.680 | Like apostasy is a calamity.

00:10:21.280 | Worse than a physical, worse than a tsunami, right?

00:10:24.640 | Worse than a shooting in Texas or Ohio

00:10:27.640 | is spiritual lostness.

00:10:30.640 | So here's what Jesus says,

00:10:32.200 | they come to Jesus and say,

00:10:33.680 | what about the people that Pilate slaughtered in the temple?

00:10:37.080 | And what about the people on whom the tower of Siloam fell?

00:10:40.760 | 18 innocent people just walking along

00:10:42.760 | and the tower fell on them, they all died.

00:10:44.640 | What do you think about that Jesus?

00:10:46.520 | And Jesus' response was amazing.

00:10:48.960 | He said, you think those people

00:10:51.360 | were worse sinners than anybody else.

00:10:53.480 | Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

00:10:55.520 | Like that's not what we expected you to say.

00:10:57.840 | And I'm wondering, can you take that text

00:11:02.040 | and lay it on top of spiritual calamity?

00:11:04.600 | Somebody comes to me and says,

00:11:07.600 | have you heard the pastor who committed apostasy?

00:11:10.040 | You know, have you heard all those people

00:11:12.640 | who were swept away by the Bible,

00:11:13.960 | the whole teacher or in Jesus' name,

00:11:15.720 | have you heard about Judas?

00:11:16.840 | Do you know what Judas did?

00:11:19.480 | Judas has been with us three years.

00:11:21.560 | He has committed all kinds of beautiful things

00:11:25.520 | with his partner in ministry.

00:11:27.280 | He sent us out two by two.

00:11:28.800 | Judas healed the sick.

00:11:30.520 | Judas preached the gospel.

00:11:34.280 | Did you hear what he just did?

00:11:36.240 | There's nothing new here.

00:11:39.280 | And Jesus, I think, would say,

00:11:43.080 | you think Judas or any given pastor

00:11:48.520 | was a worse sinner than the rest of us?

00:11:50.560 | But unless you commit yourself to a life of perseverance

00:11:54.600 | and repentance, you too will commit apostasy.

00:11:57.960 | So that brings us back to my first answer, yes.

00:12:01.480 | The one other thing I would say,

00:12:03.200 | and really it's the first thing I thought

00:12:05.560 | when I heard this, life is not over.

00:12:09.080 | - Yes, amen, amen.

00:12:11.680 | - Life is not over.

00:12:12.920 | [audience applauding]

00:12:16.160 | And the reason that is not just obviously true to me,

00:12:21.160 | but poignantly true to me,

00:12:24.640 | my dad was the youngest of three boys in his family.

00:12:28.360 | He had a brother named Elmer and a brother named Harold.

00:12:33.160 | And Bill and Harold, I mean, Bill and Elmer,

00:12:37.640 | my father and my uncle,

00:12:39.760 | were lifelong faithful evangelists all the way to the end.

00:12:44.880 | And Harold made shipwreck at the front end,

00:12:49.880 | divorced, ruined a lot of things,

00:12:55.200 | and for, I don't know the exact number,

00:12:58.080 | but I would say at least 30 years was away from the family.

00:13:02.760 | I hardly ever saw him.

00:13:04.280 | Saw Elmer all the time, not Uncle Harold.

00:13:08.000 | And in my college days, when my grandfather was dying,

00:13:13.400 | Harold came back to the Lord.

00:13:15.480 | It was the happiest day of my father's life, I think.

00:13:21.280 | And I've got pictures, my wife and I were looking at them

00:13:23.480 | the other night, pictures of Bill and Elmer and Harold

00:13:28.480 | and a dying father, reconciled.

00:13:34.480 | It's not over, folks.

00:13:36.800 | You got a kid, it's not over.

00:13:40.120 | - It's time to come home.

00:13:42.840 | - It's time to come home.

00:13:43.680 | - Amen.

00:13:44.520 | I mean, the prodigal son is a parable

00:13:47.640 | about leaving and returning.

00:13:50.800 | - Thank you to everyone who turned out

00:13:52.720 | for this first APJ Live recording

00:13:55.080 | at the Getty Sing Conference in Nashville.

00:13:57.840 | Apparently it went so well,

00:13:58.920 | we're gonna do it again in Louisville

00:14:00.160 | at the Together for the Gospel Conference

00:14:01.840 | in a breakout session on April 15th of next year

00:14:05.160 | at 3.30 to 4.30 p.m.

00:14:07.000 | Maybe we'll see some of you there in person.

00:14:08.800 | That's April 15th, 3.30 to 4.30 p.m. in Louisville

00:14:13.200 | at the Together for the Gospel Conference in 2020.

00:14:17.760 | Speaking of heavy issues, we go from this to Friday,

00:14:23.640 | a national holiday in the States.

00:14:25.640 | It's National Coming Out Day.

00:14:27.320 | Did the Apostle Paul foreshadow a culture-wide celebration

00:14:32.400 | of sexual sin like this?

00:14:34.680 | That's the question on Friday.

00:14:36.680 | We'll see you then.

00:14:37.760 | (whooshing)

00:14:40.080 | (upbeat music)

00:14:42.680 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

How Do We Respond When a Pastor Leaves the Faith?

Chapters