LSB Celebration Dinner 2025 - Ministry Q&A Panel
00:00:00.000 | Alex is showing me his LSB that he always cares. It's approved. It is. Do I get extra for bringing this? Go see men. Big prize. You, Toyota. I have a thousand twenty five. Okay, so we're going to just, we invited people to submit a question.
00:00:29.980 | Questions to the panel. And this is open to everyone. And the quick thing, Alex, if you know him, he is one of the most generous people here. And he will give his time. He will pour his heart out. He'll share. And so he had a long day to day spending himself. So I am going to limit how much he talks because I love him and we want to preserve him.
00:00:57.620 | So if I grab you or stop you, that's the sign, right?
00:01:02.660 | Thanks, Gary Kim. Thanks, Dr. Kim.
00:01:06.060 | Okay, we'll start this question. And this is addressed to all of you men. And we'll start with you, Jerry, if that's okay, and then work our way down.
00:01:15.700 | One questioner wrote, what one book of the Bible has most profoundly shaped your ministry?
00:01:21.820 | What one book of the Bible has most profoundly shaped your ministry?
00:01:27.260 | Yeah, I mean, obviously that's very hard to answer because every book you do an exposition of, it shapes your ministry.
00:01:37.460 | But when I did an exposition of 1 Thessalonians, clearly not just the first chapter, but particularly chapter 2,
00:01:48.340 | was such a pastoral, you know, it's obviously like the fourth pastoral epistle.
00:01:53.580 | It's so gripping with regard to the Apostle Paul's shepherding approach, his intimate desire to be around the flock that is in his midst.
00:02:08.980 | He obviously uses great analogies there, parenting analogies.
00:02:13.700 | He also talks about his character, and it's interesting that when he wrote 1 Thessalonians, as you know, he had no fear that he could be contradicted in the things that he said.
00:02:24.600 | And he must have said so many times in chapter 2, as you know, God is my witness, and so are you, as you know, just as you know.
00:02:31.960 | So he'd been such a model in that midst that he could write that letter without fear of somebody saying, yeah, but you really weren't those things.
00:02:41.420 | So that was a massive impact on the way I thought about, at the end of my ministry, could I write a letter back to the church without fear of contradiction?
00:02:51.540 | So.
00:02:52.360 | Yeah, I would, I think, speak in terms of the book of Romans.
00:03:02.320 | of Romans, and more specifically because of the way in which Paul builds on the gospel right up to chapter 11, and then out of that challenges the believers to a life of self-sacrifice.
00:03:26.600 | of us, and I think what it has done for me is to help me see that Christians should not just be told what they should do, but they should, first of all, be pointed to the cross,
00:03:44.940 | to God, to God, his glory, his love for them, and that out of the fullness of that realization, then be encouraged to live out their Christian lives.
00:04:02.060 | And I think I've seen something of that joyous self-sacrifice in the context of our congregation because of that.
00:04:11.440 | I think I've seen something of that joyous self-sacrifice in the context of our congregation, and I've seen something of that joyous self-sacrifice in the context of the Bible.
00:04:18.440 | Thank you.
00:04:19.440 | Thank you.
00:04:20.440 | Thank you.
00:04:21.440 | Thank you.
00:04:22.440 | You're in good company, Alex.
00:04:24.440 | All right.
00:04:25.440 | We're going to see you for the next question.
00:04:28.440 | Okay.
00:04:29.440 | Okay.
00:04:30.440 | And I didn't write these.
00:04:31.440 | Someone asked this, but I'm going to read it anyway.
00:04:34.440 | Okay.
00:04:35.440 | So, it says, "How do you decide what translation to preach from?"
00:04:39.440 | Oh, that isn't a big effort, Ty.
00:04:42.440 | Well, you'd better answer right, Alex.
00:04:45.440 | And how do you decide what to change your preaching translation?
00:04:50.440 | Or what translations do you use and why?
00:04:55.440 | How about that?
00:04:56.440 | Simple.
00:04:57.440 | Yeah.
00:04:58.440 | Well, I mean, I cut my teeth in MacArthur's ministry, so I was early on in the NAS, and I don't change translations quickly.
00:05:08.440 | Of course, nowadays, when you're studying, you have all the resources right in front of you digitally.
00:05:13.440 | So, a good expositor is going to be looking at all the translations.
00:05:17.440 | Plus, he does his own translation.
00:05:19.440 | Lord willing, that's what he should be doing.
00:05:22.440 | And so, but I would say that, obviously, a formal equivalence translation I'm going to want to stay with.
00:05:31.440 | I don't mind somebody using a readable dynamic equivalence translation, but I'm going to be preaching from the NAS.
00:05:39.440 | And I've said before, I think a few years ago when we were doing, when you were doing a version of the NAS, I was excited about it because I think that when it comes to even readability, I think for me, it was the longest lasting as to clarity.
00:06:02.440 | All the other newer translations for me.
00:06:03.440 | All the other newer translations, even the ESV, which I really, really appreciated, didn't necessarily enhance the clarity of a translation in ways that were so compelling for me to change it.
00:06:17.440 | But again, I think the joy is that I get to look at eight of them and I can put a whole bunch more on my study dynamics.
00:06:26.440 | I could look at eight of my favorite ones in every single passage I'm looking at and begin in my mind to understand, you know, the depth of how we're going about expressing what is there from the image.
00:06:40.440 | Thank you.
00:06:41.440 | Thank you.
00:06:42.440 | Thank you.
00:06:43.440 | I've been using the ESV for a few years now.
00:06:47.440 | Prior to that, from the time of my conversion, when I got sent in Zambia, the RSV was the Bible that was now giving way to the New International Version.
00:07:03.440 | So the New International Version continued up until the point that I became a pastor.
00:07:12.440 | And then somewhere along the line, it became rare in the country that ESV sort of picked up.
00:07:22.440 | It became the more common one in the congregation.
00:07:25.440 | And I always love to make sure that with respect to the church, we are using the same version.
00:07:32.440 | The difference between here and our part of the world is that we rarely have a wide selection of Bible versions.
00:07:42.440 | So it's not so much that the members are choosing.
00:07:47.440 | It's what's on the market.
00:07:49.440 | All they want is a Bible.
00:07:51.440 | And that's it.
00:07:52.440 | So the NIV has given way to ESV in the recent past.
00:07:58.440 | You want me to answer?
00:08:01.440 | Of course.
00:08:02.440 | I was raised on the King James Version, which I memorized almost everything.
00:08:06.440 | Then I went to the NASB when only the New Testament was done.
00:08:11.440 | The Old Testament wasn't done.
00:08:12.440 | So I read that.
00:08:13.440 | Then I read the rest of it.
00:08:15.440 | And I read that pretty much months of my life.
00:08:18.440 | Did the first biblical eldership out of it.
00:08:21.440 | And then for five years, I used the NIV.
00:08:23.440 | I had a reason for that.
00:08:24.440 | That has become the most popular read Bible.
00:08:27.440 | Many of the commentaries were coming out of the NIV New International Version.
00:08:31.440 | So I felt I needed to know it.
00:08:33.440 | And after a while, there were things that they changed that I just felt was not what a serious Bible student needs.
00:08:39.440 | Like changing the word saints to friends.
00:08:42.440 | That's bad.
00:08:43.440 | There's a reason to use the word saints.
00:08:45.440 | And then I went or elders changed to the ESV and people were going to the ESV.
00:08:52.440 | So I've been using that for the last number of years.
00:08:55.440 | I have been reading the inspired version here.
00:08:59.440 | The L-S-B.
00:09:02.440 | That's scary.
00:09:03.440 | I'm carrying him with me.
00:09:05.440 | The man's shameless.
00:09:08.440 | What have I said?
00:09:11.440 | We still love him.
00:09:12.440 | If he went up in the business world, he'd be a multimillionaire.
00:09:15.440 | So anyway, I've been checking this out.
00:09:18.440 | I do like how they use Yahweh in the Old Testament and a number of other New Testament translations.
00:09:23.440 | So I'm checking in different times.
00:09:25.440 | That's it.
00:09:26.440 | Great.
00:09:27.440 | So, as you can tell from the answers, we still have a lot of work to do.
00:09:31.440 | Great answers.
00:09:35.440 | I'm going to direct this question to Jerry.
00:09:38.440 | Jerry, what practical steps have you taken or would you take to encourage a culture of prayer within the local church?
00:09:50.440 | Well, obviously, that when you're the pastor, you have to be a man who prays.
00:09:59.440 | Your elders need to be men who pray.
00:10:02.440 | I cannot take credit for the long-term established discipline of prayer in our church.
00:10:09.440 | That belongs to some faithful members in our church who have taught us all to pray.
00:10:15.440 | They were prayer warriors when I came.
00:10:19.440 | Every season of my life where I've noticed prayerlessness far, far more than, you know, obviously you don't want to have prayerlessness, but, you know, sometimes in leaders' lives, they can be self-reliant.
00:10:34.440 | And any season like that in my life, these people in our church, these wonderful saints who have developed the discipline of prayer in their life, become a rebuke to me and to the church.
00:10:49.440 | And so, but I would say that if I were looking at my own heart personally and the elders collectively, we want to always be not asking the generic questions, but the very careful questions about people's needs in a way that puts them on our mind.
00:11:16.440 | It's interesting that when Paul would say over and over again, I keep making mention of you in my prayers, it's clear that he had lists.
00:11:27.440 | He made lists.
00:11:28.440 | There's this formal way that he cycled through the needs of people.
00:11:34.440 | And, you know, we might have a lot to answer for before the Lord when we have a cell phone right there, when we can just put lists at our fingertips.
00:11:45.440 | When back in his day, it was, you know, how he made those lists and how he kept track of them must have been a discipline in and of itself.
00:11:53.440 | But your leaders have to be praying people.
00:11:56.440 | So we have times of prayer as a service as a church, but all over the church, we've admired and elevated those who've developed that discipline so that the congregation can learn from those that have the greatest, you know, faithfulness at it.
00:12:14.440 | So I would say that's where the encouragement comes most from.
00:12:18.440 | Thanks, Jerry.
00:12:19.440 | Conrad, I have a question for you.
00:12:22.440 | How have the sanctifying experiences of pastoral ministry changed the way you preach?
00:12:33.440 | Yeah.
00:12:34.440 | Yeah.
00:12:35.440 | Yeah.
00:12:36.440 | What I've found really is that, you know, pastoral ministry, or let me use the phrase, expanding scripture, is closely tied up with your experience as a Christian.
00:12:50.440 | It's almost like, you know, your experience enables you to see a little more from the Bible.
00:12:59.440 | And as you are studying the Bible, it is again informing your life in terms of how you ought to live as a child of God, as a husband, a father, a pastor over the church.
00:13:15.440 | And then again, it informs, it opens your eyes further to what's happening in the Bible.
00:13:25.440 | And so the two really go together without necessarily being very conscious of it.
00:13:36.440 | But certainly, when I look at my sermon scripts from the early part of my pastoral ministry, so that's the late 1980s going into the 1990s.
00:13:54.440 | I, the doctrine itself hasn't changed, but I tend to notice that the messages were, I would use the word lighter, in the sense of almost being a bit superficial.
00:14:15.440 | But I think the difference has been, because of what the Lord has taught me over the years, experiential.
00:14:25.440 | And I think that's, that's the way that I would answer that, that question.
00:14:32.440 | Yeah.
00:14:33.440 | Thank you.
00:14:34.440 | My turn?
00:14:35.440 | No.
00:14:36.440 | Well, I have a different question.
00:14:37.440 | No, I like that question.
00:14:38.440 | Do you?
00:14:39.440 | Well, I, I'm not going to stop you.
00:14:40.440 | Thank you.
00:14:41.440 | I'm going to, I'm going to promote your Bible.
00:14:44.440 | So a verse of great conviction in my life is act six, four, and the apostles are challenged with a lot of the diverse things to do, and it became a crisis.
00:14:57.440 | And here's what they say, and this applies to every eldership group, but we will devote ourself, strong word, single-minded devotion to ourself, to prayer.
00:15:08.440 | No, it's prayer first.
00:15:09.440 | You should go to the word first.
00:15:11.440 | And Gary, this is a good translation, and to the service of the word.
00:15:16.440 | Usually it's the ministry of the word, service, because it's service.
00:15:19.440 | It's part of our word.
00:15:21.440 | Then, one more verse, Gary, from the true Bible.
00:15:28.440 | This is the verse I preached on many, many times, and it's a Godly verse to our church.
00:15:37.440 | After listing the armor, this is not a piece of armor.
00:15:41.440 | It's what you do for the soldier.
00:15:43.440 | What does he do?
00:15:45.440 | Praying at all times.
00:15:47.440 | And with all prayer and petition.
00:15:51.440 | That is all kinds of prayer.
00:15:53.440 | In the Holy Spirit.
00:15:55.440 | In other words, not just rope prayer, but empowerment.
00:16:00.440 | Prayer is a living thing.
00:16:02.440 | The Holy Spirit's involved.
00:16:04.440 | Jesus is praying for us.
00:16:06.440 | Father's callers.
00:16:07.440 | In fact, I'm on prayer list, Gary.
00:16:08.440 | I have at the top, draw near from Hebrews.
00:16:11.440 | But listen to this, Gary.
00:16:13.440 | And to this end, to this end, Gary, be on the alert with all perseverance.
00:16:19.440 | George Mueller said, that's what we all fail.
00:16:21.440 | We don't persevere.
00:16:22.440 | And petition.
00:16:23.440 | All right.
00:16:24.440 | Here's the big point, Gary.
00:16:25.440 | Are you listening?
00:16:26.440 | Are you listening?
00:16:27.440 | I'm listening.
00:16:28.440 | For all the saints.
00:16:30.440 | For all the saints.
00:16:31.440 | We have a prayer ministry for the people in our church and our mission is for all the saints.
00:16:36.440 | Well, since it's for all the saints, Paul goes on and says, as well as on my behalf, because I'm one of the saints.
00:16:42.440 | And he prays.
00:16:43.440 | And he wants him to pray.
00:16:44.440 | In fact, here's very interesting, Gary.
00:16:47.440 | Paul sees the prayers of the local church as directly affecting the liberty and the restriction of his gospel ministry.
00:16:56.440 | That's powerful.
00:16:57.440 | So, I think it's modeled by the elders.
00:17:01.440 | One time our elders went away for two days and they just had the whole time for prayer.
00:17:06.440 | No ministry, no business, just prayer.
00:17:10.440 | So, the elders model that prayer is very important.
00:17:14.440 | So, I wanted to say this to Gary.
00:17:16.440 | Last year and this year, I had one of the great privileges of my life was to go into the elders prayer meeting before the service.
00:17:27.440 | at Grace Community Church and watch.
00:17:32.440 | All those elders get down on their knees and I almost started crying.
00:17:36.440 | I took a picture, brought it back to our church.
00:17:39.440 | Okay, John's a great preacher.
00:17:42.440 | But what power comes out of that with the elders on their knees in this great church to think, you know, why are they on their knees?
00:17:50.440 | Because they are dependent on God working through the word.
00:17:54.440 | So, we model it.
00:17:56.440 | And if we don't model it, people follow what they model.
00:17:59.440 | They don't think it's devastating.
00:18:01.440 | Act 6/4.
00:18:03.440 | Very important in our lives.
00:18:05.440 | First thing?
00:18:07.440 | Okay.
00:18:09.440 | Okay.
00:18:10.440 | Thank you very much.
00:18:12.440 | I appreciate that.
00:18:15.440 | You guys obviously get an insight as to our conversation sometimes.
00:18:21.440 | So it's encouraging and admonishing me and I love Alex for it.
00:18:26.440 | Okay, so this question is open to all of you and you can answer it in any order you would like.
00:18:32.440 | What are some common blind spots of seminarians, interns, and young pastors?
00:18:39.440 | What are some common blind spots that you see?
00:18:43.440 | I'll answer this because it boils my blood.
00:18:49.440 | You can have a lot of Bible knowledge but be a knucklehead and not know how to deal with people.
00:18:56.440 | Our work is people work.
00:18:58.440 | You've got to know interpersonal relationships.
00:19:00.440 | You've got to know how to listen really carefully and not yak your head off.
00:19:05.440 | So many pastors just talk too much.
00:19:07.440 | Be a good listener, have compassion, use the word understanding, and know how to relate to people.
00:19:16.440 | So we do a lot of hospitality.
00:19:19.440 | People are home.
00:19:20.440 | We get to know them.
00:19:21.440 | And people will disagree.
00:19:23.440 | We listen.
00:19:24.440 | Why do you disagree?
00:19:25.440 | Try to understand them.
00:19:26.440 | Love covers a multitude of sins.
00:19:28.440 | So I see that you can get a lot of Bible education and get a big degree and all that, but you don't have to hear people.
00:19:36.440 | And people don't like you.
00:19:37.440 | They're afraid of you or they think you know it all.
00:19:40.440 | So how do we as shepherds shepherd the sheep in a way that the sheep respond to us in a positive way?
00:19:49.440 | And they love us.
00:19:52.440 | That's great.
00:19:54.440 | Yeah.
00:19:55.440 | First of all, the answer that has been given rebukes me and that's what I really want to give as an answer.
00:20:03.440 | Looking back to my earlier years, I became a pastor at the age of 25.
00:20:09.440 | And I made a lot of mistakes.
00:20:13.440 | I think I survived because of the long suffering nature of the people of God.
00:20:19.440 | And exactly what Alex has said here, I think the main error that I had then was that I saw God's people like just an army.
00:20:37.440 | So I come in as a kind of captain or lieutenant or whatever.
00:20:42.440 | I issue out.
00:20:44.440 | Okay.
00:20:45.440 | From the Bible, of course, this is what the Bible is saying.
00:20:48.440 | Therefore, this is what we should do.
00:20:50.440 | And as far as I was concerned, it must be clear.
00:20:55.440 | Therefore, everybody ought to be doing it.
00:20:59.440 | And I just did not have the realization that God's people process God's truth at different rates.
00:21:09.440 | And therefore, I need to be patient.
00:21:13.440 | I need to be loving.
00:21:14.440 | I need to be listening and so forth.
00:21:18.440 | All that has just been said.
00:21:20.440 | So, yeah, we lost quite a number of church members during that season.
00:21:28.440 | I want to repeat, thankfully, I survived.
00:21:31.440 | Looking back now, yes, I see the same mistakes being made by a younger generation.
00:21:38.440 | And therefore, I tend to warn and educate and encourage them not to repeat the mistakes that I had.
00:21:47.440 | I would like to recommend a book that's life changing.
00:21:50.440 | It's Agape Leadership.
00:21:51.440 | It's the marvelous life of Robert Chapman.
00:21:54.440 | He was a London lawyer.
00:21:56.440 | He left his legal job.
00:21:57.440 | His sister said he could read eight languages.
00:21:59.440 | And he became a pastor of a little Ebenezer Baptist church, which had gone through three pastors in 18 months.
00:22:06.440 | The story of how he turned that church around is the most amazing story you'll ever read.
00:22:11.440 | I guarantee you, Gary will guarantee this.
00:22:13.440 | You'll get three Bibles.
00:22:14.440 | If I'm not true, it will bring you to tears.
00:22:19.440 | It will bring you to tears.
00:22:20.440 | I guarantee you.
00:22:21.440 | And I would like to send that to you free.
00:22:24.440 | If you would send your address or whatever, it will be life changing.
00:22:29.440 | But the point I want to make is to say through his humility, his Bible teaching, great patience, great patience and understanding of people.
00:22:38.440 | Love understands.
00:22:39.440 | That's a beautiful way to explain love.
00:22:41.440 | It understands.
00:22:42.440 | Love covers a multitude of sins, just like with your children.
00:22:45.440 | If I had to remind your children, I might kill them.
00:22:48.440 | But you love them and you understand them.
00:22:50.440 | And of course, they haven't got enough sleep.
00:22:51.440 | That's why they're so bad.
00:22:52.440 | So anyway, I'll send you that book if you like it.
00:22:55.440 | Agape Leadership: The Amazing Life of Robert Jettin.
00:22:58.440 | It's everything we're talking about now.
00:23:01.440 | Jerry?
00:23:02.440 | Well, I mean, it'd be hard to add to any of that meaningfully, but I would say that, you know, you've mentioned patience, both of you.
00:23:13.440 | And sometimes I see in the young men training for ministry that they preach and shepherd as though they change much faster than the flock.
00:23:28.440 | And if we're going to learn patience, we do have to be realistic and honest about how long it takes the Lord to work something in us.
00:23:41.440 | So that helps you be patient with the flock.
00:23:44.440 | I would also say one of the blind spots I see in the younger years in the training process is that men who love God's Word, and they want to do a great job for the Lord, and they want to see the Lord use them in ministry.
00:24:02.440 | All of that is noble, and it's great.
00:24:05.440 | But a man must really come to grips with whether they trust the work of the Spirit of God through His Word.
00:24:14.440 | If they do not trust that, but think that they do, they're going to be tested in it, because in the end, ministry life is going to be coming at them as it always does with the challenges, the difficulties, the trials, the burdens, plus the weekly cycle of ministry.
00:24:36.440 | MacArthur used to tell us often that it was a relentless bondage.
00:24:41.440 | He didn't mean a bondage of some sort of suffering sort.
00:24:45.440 | He just meant you're always under it.
00:24:48.440 | And young men don't even really at times acknowledge that they don't yet know what that's going to feel like.
00:24:55.440 | But what gets you through all that is this implicit trust in the work of the Word of God in people's lives, both in private admonition and public proclamation.
00:25:10.440 | And when the seats are empty or whether they're full, you're not putting your eyes on yourself.
00:25:16.440 | You're just saying, Lord, you do your work.
00:25:18.440 | I don't want any more people here or souls here to care for than you want me to have in any season.
00:25:24.440 | I don't want any less because of something sinful in me.
00:25:29.440 | I just want to trust the work of the Word of God in people's lives.
00:25:34.440 | And I find the blind spot is that they have this desire to do this great work for the Lord.
00:25:43.440 | But when that gets tested, they start to manipulate, manufacture, even try to craft ministry impact.
00:25:52.440 | And you cannot do that.
00:25:54.440 | The Word of God is what brings ministry impact.
00:25:57.440 | Thanks, Jerry.
00:25:58.440 | Hey, Jerry, I'm going to come back to you on this next question.
00:26:03.440 | And the question is: How can a pastor, new or experienced, get solid discipleship if he's never had it?
00:26:12.440 | How can he experience solid discipleship?
00:26:14.440 | Yeah, how do pastors get disciples, whether they're new or experienced?
00:26:19.440 | Well, sometimes we might overcomplicate the whole matter.
00:26:23.440 | Discipleship merely is becoming a better follower of Christ.
00:26:29.440 | And so I want to find somebody who is a better follower of Christ in key areas and say, help me discipline my life the way you have to do that.
00:26:40.440 | And the one who you're asking to help you, even if they've never really articulated how they got where they are.
00:26:49.440 | They do discipline their life to get there or they wouldn't be there.
00:26:53.440 | So I think sometimes we overcomplicate the definition.
00:26:57.440 | Just find someone that you admire who has an area of their life that you want to master, you want to do better at, and annoy them until they hurt.
00:27:08.440 | Just annoy them.
00:27:10.440 | Please help me with this area of my life.
00:27:12.440 | And then what happens is, as you walk in their steps and learn that, then you're going to pray,
00:27:19.440 | Lord, bring anyone you want to my doorstep who needs to become a better follower of Christ in that area.
00:27:25.440 | So you have the mature willing to reach out and sacrifice and take time with the less mature to bring them along.
00:27:33.440 | And then you have the less mature always looking in the body for someone that can help them become a better follower in their areas of need.
00:27:43.440 | Okay, thanks, Jerry.
00:27:45.440 | Alex, this question's for you.
00:27:47.440 | What is the most important practical thing a man can do in his first pastoring?
00:27:55.440 | Get to know the people.
00:27:58.440 | So I tell them, have people over to your house, get to their house.
00:28:01.440 | Go in their house and get them to your house.
00:28:04.440 | So my wife, for our entire ministry, as Sunday morning, we always have a big group over.
00:28:10.440 | We ask two questions.
00:28:11.440 | How'd you get saved?
00:28:12.440 | Tell us how you met and got married.
00:28:14.440 | And by the time they leave, several hours later, we got some indesciple into them.
00:28:19.440 | And they will say to us, I've heard this, I know, over a hundred times.
00:28:24.440 | We've never been in a minister's home before.
00:28:27.440 | That's sort of a problem.
00:28:29.440 | But anyway, get to know the people.
00:28:31.440 | And John MacArthur made this statement, and I totally agree with it.
00:28:35.440 | Don't go preach on Romans or Hebrews.
00:28:38.440 | Start someplace simple when you start.
00:28:41.440 | That is non-controversial, where people get to know you.
00:28:45.440 | And they, remember, we're shepherds.
00:28:47.440 | And the sheep don't trust the shepherd unless he sees the shepherd quite often.
00:28:52.440 | And then they'll follow.
00:28:53.440 | So we have to, the people have to get to know us.
00:28:57.440 | And that's our job.
00:28:59.440 | Great.
00:29:00.440 | And Conrad, this question is for you.
00:29:05.440 | On rare occasions, respected public Christian leaders are disqualified through moral failings.
00:29:14.440 | How do you shepherd your people through this?
00:29:17.440 | So who am I shepherding?
00:29:23.440 | The one that has fallen or the ones who are disappointed because someone has fallen?
00:29:30.440 | Yeah, the disappointed ones.
00:29:32.440 | Okay.
00:29:33.440 | Yeah.
00:29:34.440 | Yeah.
00:29:35.440 | Well, first of all, I think one has to just accept the fact that they are in a state of mourning.
00:29:43.440 | It's like a funeral.
00:29:44.440 | It's like a funeral.
00:29:45.440 | So you have to allow for the emotional process, the devastating news they have received.
00:29:58.440 | The relationship between the sheep and the shepherd, even if it's not the shepherd of that particular church,
00:30:10.440 | it will be somebody they've been following, they've been reading the books and so on.
00:30:16.440 | The devastation, first of all, is due to they can't believe that this has happened.
00:30:29.440 | And if it has happened to someone this high, then we are completely vulnerable because we are below here.
00:30:41.440 | And so assuming those people are in the context of my own church, I think the way one picks it up is first of all,
00:30:53.440 | they might be absent from church because they are now trying to process this alone.
00:31:01.440 | Or they are expressing their complete disappointment and maybe even anger to somebody else in the church who then circles round to you and says,
00:31:14.440 | "Hey, you know, you need to move in there because the situation is quite bad."
00:31:21.440 | So once that kind of information comes through, then one-on-one help is really the best because it's individuals who are really hurting
00:31:37.440 | and therefore need someone to walk with them through the healing process.
00:31:44.440 | And what I have found is that if I can get them to talk, however terrible the talk will be,
00:31:57.440 | it's helping to unleash that poison that is currently in the soul.
00:32:10.440 | And once that happens, then yes, my mind is going through the scriptures like a computer,
00:32:23.440 | seeking, okay, what example have I got in the Bible?
00:32:28.440 | what teaching is there in the Bible that I could use as medicine, as bandage over the hurt.
00:32:43.440 | But still knowing that we have quite a journey to walk.
00:32:49.440 | I think that's the way that I put so there's a lot of listening as the person is expressing himself or herself.
00:33:00.440 | Yeah, there could be a situation where it is wider.
00:33:04.440 | In other words, the church's pastor has fallen and therefore it's not a one-on-one situation.
00:33:15.440 | I've been asked to come in and therefore I, not necessarily preach during the worship service, but when worship is over,
00:33:28.440 | the members in a small meeting share devotionally there and try and walk with that congregation for a while.
00:33:38.440 | I think that's the way that I would perceive doing it in our context back home.
00:33:45.440 | I'm not sure how it would be in the U.S.
00:33:48.440 | Amen.
00:33:49.440 | Thank you.
00:33:50.440 | Final question, it's open to each of you men.
00:33:55.440 | And, you know, as we all are getting older year by year.
00:34:00.440 | You're getting older.
00:34:01.440 | I am.
00:34:03.440 | What would you want your church, your congregation, even your family to want to remember you for?
00:34:14.440 | When everything is said and done and your ministry, your life comes in and how would you like to be remembered?
00:34:22.440 | How in the world could you ever answer your question?
00:34:32.440 | Just being remembered would be nice.
00:34:35.440 | Yeah, I don't remember who the guy is or was.
00:34:40.440 | My kids and I, I mean, my kids know and my family knows that if I did have a favorite passage in the scripture, it would be Isaiah 66:2.
00:34:54.440 | Sometimes we'll even sign a letter trembling at his word before I sign my name.
00:35:05.440 | It's become a passage.
00:35:06.440 | I mean, I've preached it.
00:35:07.440 | I've thought about it a lot.
00:35:09.440 | But what has been most amazing about it, and it goes to the things I think about when I think about that question, I think it's so focused on the characteristics God looks to to use in a person.
00:35:28.440 | There's a whole host of things in the Bible we could say about the kind of person we must be and the kind of person that bears the fruit God wants to bear.
00:35:37.440 | But Isaiah 66:2 is about as pointed and concise as it could be.
00:35:43.440 | To this one I will look.
00:35:45.440 | And remember that comes on the heels of you can't build anything for me.
00:35:50.440 | Earth is my first stool.
00:35:51.440 | Where is the human being that's going to make an adequate place of worship for God of very God?
00:35:57.440 | And yet, to this one I will look, humble, a confessional life every day, a contrite heart, and who trembles at his word.
00:36:06.440 | So I would hope, even though my kids know my flaws, and my grandchildren, as I spend time with them, they're seeing the flaws of their papa.
00:36:16.440 | I would hope that somewhere in there, they saw me tremble at God's word in a way that impacted them as the Lord was faithful to move on my life in that way.
00:36:32.440 | I'd like to read a verse for this special Bible that we have in our heads.
00:36:40.440 | Gary, this is Hebrews 13:7.
00:36:44.440 | "Remember your leaders," it seems that they're not, "who spoke the word of God to you," that's the particular leaders, "and considering the result of their conduct."
00:36:58.440 | Now, here's the answer, Gary.
00:37:01.440 | Imitate their faith.
00:37:02.440 | I would want my children and the people in my church to say, "I want to imitate his faith."
00:37:08.440 | I get paid extra, by the way, if you go and buy this Bible, I get 20%.
00:37:21.440 | Okay, Conrad.
00:37:22.440 | Yeah, I think there's a difference between what I'd like them to remember from my ministry, from what it is I'd like to be remembered for.
00:37:43.440 | And the slight difference is this, that with respect to what I'd like them to remember from my ministry, is that I pointed them to Christ through his word.
00:38:02.440 | Whatever else they may remember, if they can stick with that, that I pointed them to Christ through the sufficiency of Scripture.
00:38:18.440 | As for them remembering me specifically, yeah, that's a hard one.
00:38:28.440 | I would hope that they would remember Christ a lot more than me, you know, that I would go with the sons of time, but they remain with Christ rather than remembering me.
00:38:49.440 | So it's a bit of a struggle.
00:38:50.440 | Thank you.
00:38:51.440 | Hey, can we thank these men for...
00:38:54.440 | Thank you very much.
00:38:55.440 | Thank you very much.
00:38:55.440 | Thank you very much.
00:38:55.440 | Thank you very much.
00:38:56.440 | Thank you very much.
00:38:57.440 | Thank you very much.
00:38:58.440 | Thank you very much.
00:38:59.440 | Thank you very much.
00:39:00.440 | Thank you very much.
00:39:00.440 | Thank you very much.
00:39:01.440 | Thank you very much.
00:39:02.440 | Thank you very much.
00:39:02.440 | Thank you very much.
00:39:03.440 | Thank you very much.
00:39:03.440 | Thank you very much.
00:39:04.440 | Thank you very much.
00:39:04.440 | Thank you very much.
00:39:05.440 | Thank you very much.
00:39:05.440 | Thank you very much.
00:39:06.440 | Thank you very much.
00:39:07.440 | Thank you.