Cenk Uygur: Trump vs Harris, Progressive Politics, Communism & Capitalism

00:00:00.000 | Communism makes no sense at all, totally opposed to human nature.

00:00:04.620 | It never works.

00:00:06.180 | It always evolves into dictatorship.

00:00:08.220 | It creates a power vacuum.

00:00:10.260 | When you say, Hey, there's no structure of power here, right?

00:00:13.620 | We're all equal.

00:00:14.500 | It's a flat line.

00:00:15.420 | One guy usually gets up because that's human nature and goes, I don't think so.

00:00:20.940 | I think if you're going to leave a power vacuum, I'm going to take that power vacuum.

00:00:24.660 | Corporatism hates competition.

00:00:27.980 | It wants monopoly and oligopoly power.

00:00:30.320 | Whereas capitalism loves competition and wants to free markets.

00:00:35.080 | When mainstream media has you hooked, you got no hope because you

00:00:39.140 | don't have the right information.

00:00:40.900 | You have propaganda, you have marketing, you don't have real news.

00:00:44.420 | When you're in the online world, it's chaotic and don't get me wrong.

00:00:48.780 | It's got plenty of downsides, right?

00:00:50.780 | But within that chaos, the truth begins to emerge.

00:00:55.680 | Trump is a massive risk because of all the things we talked about earlier.

00:00:59.880 | But there is a percentage chance that he's such a wild card that

00:01:04.780 | he overturns the whole system.

00:01:06.120 | And that is why the establishment is a little scared of him.

00:01:09.340 | The following is a conversation with Cenk Uygur, a progressive political

00:01:16.320 | commentator and host of the Young Turks.

00:01:18.680 | As I've said before, I will speak with everyone, including on the left and

00:01:23.080 | the right of the political spectrum.

00:01:25.080 | Always in good faith with empathy, rigor, and backbone.

00:01:28.360 | Sometimes I fail.

00:01:30.420 | Sometimes I say stupid, inaccurate, ineloquent things.

00:01:35.560 | And I frequently change my mind as I'm learning and thinking about the world.

00:01:39.620 | For all this, I often get attacked sometimes fairly, sometimes not, but

00:01:45.840 | just know that I'm aware when I fall short and I will keep trying to do better.

00:01:51.120 | I love you all.

00:01:53.820 | This is the Lex Friedman podcast to support it, please check out

00:01:56.940 | our sponsors in the description.

00:01:58.580 | And now dear friends, here's Cenk Uygur.

00:02:02.440 | You wrote a book, a manifesto that outlines the

00:02:07.060 | progressive vision for America.

00:02:08.480 | So the big question, what are some defining ideas of progressivism?

00:02:13.140 | Yes.

00:02:14.660 | So in order to do that, Lex, we got to talk about where we

00:02:17.860 | are in the political spectrum.

00:02:19.060 | And, uh, in fact, there's two different, uh, spectrums now.

00:02:23.020 | People often think of left, right.

00:02:24.460 | Uh, and that's true that exists, but layered on top of that is

00:02:28.800 | now populist versus establishment.

00:02:30.660 | So I'm center left on the left, right spectrum.

00:02:35.640 | Um, but I'm all the way on that populist end of, of the second spectrum.

00:02:41.500 | So where does progressivism lie within that?

00:02:44.940 | Well, uh, I would argue that it's exactly in those places.

00:02:49.620 | It's populist, uh, and it's on the left, but it is not far left.

00:02:54.820 | So far left is a different animal.

00:02:56.820 | And we could talk about that in a little bit.

00:02:59.460 | So in terms of what makes a progressive, so expand the circle of liberty and, uh,

00:03:06.420 | justice for all and equality of opportunity.

00:03:09.200 | Now people will say, well, that seems pretty broad and all American, but is it?

00:03:15.220 | Think about it.

00:03:16.180 | So expand the circle of liberty.

00:03:18.260 | Uh, everybody's in favor of that, right?

00:03:19.780 | No, absolutely not.

00:03:21.140 | So, uh, certainly the King of England was not in favor of expanding the circle of

00:03:26.220 | liberty and the founding father said, we're going to expand it and they

00:03:28.940 | expanded it to property to white men.

00:03:31.060 | And then progressives have been their progressives because they

00:03:34.660 | expanded the circle of liberty.

00:03:35.900 | They then from then on, as we were perfecting the union, progressives

00:03:40.240 | always say, expand it further, include women, include people without property,

00:03:44.180 | include all races, and at every turn conservatives fight against it.

00:03:48.300 | So that doesn't mean if you're a conservative today, you don't want to

00:03:52.900 | include women or, uh, minorities, et cetera, but, but today you would say,

00:03:57.660 | for example, well, I don't want to expand the circle of liberty to, for

00:04:00.980 | example, undocumented immigrants.

00:04:02.500 | And maybe you're right about that.

00:04:04.140 | And we could have that discussion in terms of a specific philosophy.

00:04:08.220 | And I don't believe that undocumented immigrants should immediately be

00:04:11.380 | citizens or anything along those lines.

00:04:13.260 | But I do believe in expanding liberty overall.

00:04:15.500 | And the contours of that are what's interesting.

00:04:17.580 | And then you see justice for all everybody's for just no, right now,

00:04:21.140 | marijuana possession is still illegal in a lot of parts of the country.

00:04:25.540 | Now, a lot of right-wingers and left-wingers agree that it should be legal.

00:04:28.820 | But for my entire lifetime, uh, black people have been arrested at about

00:04:33.180 | 3.7 times the rate of white people and the entire country has been fine with it.

00:04:38.100 | So is that justice?

00:04:40.180 | No, they smoke white people.

00:04:41.980 | Black people smoke marijuana at the same rate.

00:04:44.380 | Black people get arrested about four times the rate.

00:04:47.140 | That is an injustice that an enormous percentage of the

00:04:50.260 | country was comfortable with.

00:04:51.580 | Well, progressives aren't comfortable with it.

00:04:53.420 | We want justice for all.

00:04:54.860 | So the quality of opportunity is an interesting one because the far left

00:04:59.100 | will say, so at least some portions of them will say equality of results, right?

00:05:04.420 | So progressives just want a fair chance.

00:05:08.100 | So free college education, but afterwards you don't get to have exact same results

00:05:14.340 | as either the wealthiest person, or we're not all going to be equal.

00:05:17.740 | We don't have equal talents, skills, abilities, et cetera.

00:05:20.060 | There's a lot of questions I can ask there.

00:05:22.500 | So on the circle of liberty, yes.

00:05:25.020 | So expanding the number of people whose freedoms are protected.

00:05:29.060 | But what about the magnitude of freedom for each individual person?

00:05:32.540 | So expanding the freedom of the individual and protecting

00:05:38.060 | the freedoms of the individual.

00:05:39.300 | It seems like progressives are more willing to expand the size of government

00:05:44.580 | where government can do all kinds of regulation, all kinds

00:05:47.540 | of controls on the individual.

00:05:48.820 | So Lex, what we're probably going to talk about a lot today is balance.

00:05:53.380 | And so a lot of people think, oh, I I'm on the right, I'm on the left.

00:05:59.220 | And that comes with a certain preset ideology.

00:06:02.260 | So the right is always correct.

00:06:04.020 | The left is always correct.

00:06:05.460 | So there's two problems with that.

00:06:07.060 | Number one, how could you possibly believe in a preset ideology?

00:06:11.740 | If you're an independent thinker, it's literally by definition, not possible.

00:06:16.660 | If you say I lent my brain to an ideology that was created 80 years ago or eight

00:06:21.940 | years ago, or 800 years ago, and I'm not going to change it, you're

00:06:25.820 | saying, I don't think for myself.

00:06:27.340 | I, you know, I bought into a culture and by the way, there's a lot of different

00:06:30.940 | forms of culture you could buy into religion, politics, sometimes, uh, racial,

00:06:36.700 | et cetera, so that's why you need actually balance the same reason you need balance

00:06:42.580 | other than independent thought is because the answer is almost never black and white.

00:06:46.820 | And that gets into a really interesting nuance because mainstream

00:06:52.100 | media, in my opinion, is the matrix.

00:06:53.900 | And its job is to delude you into thinking corporate rule is great

00:06:59.220 | for you and we should never change it.

00:07:01.220 | And the status quo is wonderful.

00:07:03.020 | So they have created a false middle.

00:07:06.020 | What mainstream media calls moderate is actually, in my opinion,

00:07:12.020 | extremist corporate ideology.

00:07:14.500 | So for example, they'll say Joe Manchin is a moderate.

00:07:17.340 | None of his positions are moderate other than potentially

00:07:20.180 | gun control in West Virginia.

00:07:22.060 | He's not for gun control.

00:07:23.700 | The people of West Virginia are not for gun control, generally speaking.

00:07:27.260 | So, and he uses that and they usually have these shiny objects

00:07:30.140 | where they're like, you see this.

00:07:31.340 | I'm a moderate because of guns, or I'm a moderate because I'm

00:07:34.980 | a Democrat from West Virginia.

00:07:36.420 | But wait, let's look at your positions.

00:07:37.980 | You're against paid family leave that polls at 84%.

00:07:40.900 | So you're a radical corporatist who say that women should be forced back into

00:07:45.500 | work the day after they have birth.

00:07:48.100 | You're against the higher minimum wage.

00:07:50.220 | You're against, you're for every corporate position and

00:07:53.420 | they all poll at 33% or less.

00:07:57.100 | So Joe Manchin is not at all a moderate.

00:08:00.420 | And this applies to almost every corporate Republican

00:08:02.980 | and every corporate Democrat.

00:08:04.260 | They're all extremists in, in supporting what I call corporatism.

00:08:08.060 | So you have to get to a balance in order to get to the right answer.

00:08:11.140 | So that's an interesting distinction here.

00:08:12.700 | So you're actually, as far as I understand, pro-capitalism.

00:08:15.660 | Yes.

00:08:16.300 | Which is an interesting place to be.

00:08:17.780 | That's the thing that probably makes you center left and then still populist.

00:08:23.740 | You're, you're full of beautiful contradictions.

00:08:26.380 | Let's say this, which will be great to untangle.

00:08:28.620 | But what's the difference between corporatism and capitalism?

00:08:32.700 | Is there a difference?

00:08:33.660 | So I really believe in capitalism.

00:08:37.420 | I don't think that there's really a second choice.

00:08:40.140 | Um, the, where it gets super interesting is the distinction between capitalism

00:08:45.220 | and socialism, because that's not at all as clear as people think it is.

00:08:49.260 | And people often say socialism and communism as synonyms when

00:08:53.940 | they're not synonyms, right?

00:08:55.620 | And so I view it as, there's basically four distinct areas.

00:09:01.740 | It's obviously a spectrum.

00:09:02.900 | Everything's a spectrum, right?

00:09:04.060 | On one end, you have communism on the left and on the other end,

00:09:07.620 | you have corporatism on the right.

00:09:09.140 | Okay.

00:09:09.860 | And I would argue that capitalism is in the middle.

00:09:12.180 | And so communism, we know, uh, state owns all property.

00:09:18.460 | You're not allowed to have private property.

00:09:20.060 | So I will piss off a lot of people in this show.

00:09:23.900 | And so I'm asking for their patience, please hear me out.

00:09:27.740 | And because don't worry, I'm going to piss off the other side too.

00:09:30.820 | Okay.

00:09:31.700 | So communism makes no sense at all, totally opposed to human nature.

00:09:37.300 | It never works.

00:09:38.860 | It always evolves into dictatorship because it is

00:09:42.380 | not built for human nature.

00:09:44.700 | It, we're never going to act like that.

00:09:47.140 | It's not in our DNA.

00:09:49.180 | You could try to wish it into existence and they have, and it never works.

00:09:53.620 | And it's because once you have almost no rules in terms of, uh, Oh, we're all

00:09:59.780 | equal and even though communism eventually winds up having an enormous

00:10:04.380 | amount of rules, right?

00:10:05.540 | Uh, it creates a power vacuum when you say, Hey, there's no

00:10:09.940 | structure of power here, right?

00:10:11.940 | We're all equal.

00:10:12.820 | It's a flat line.

00:10:13.740 | One guy usually gets up because that's human nature and goes,

00:10:17.340 | Oh, I don't think so.

00:10:19.260 | I think if you're going to leave a power vacuum, I'm going

00:10:21.900 | to take that power vacuum.

00:10:22.980 | That's actually a really interesting way to put it because when everyone is equal,

00:10:28.340 | nobody is in power and human nature is such that there's everybody's,

00:10:32.580 | there's a will to power.

00:10:33.580 | So when you create a power vacuum, somebody is going to, to fill it.

00:10:36.660 | So the alternative is to have people in power, but there's a balance of power.

00:10:41.500 | And then there's like a democratic system that elects the people in power

00:10:44.820 | and keeps churning and rotating.

00:10:46.860 | Cause that is exactly it.

00:10:48.580 | Lex, you got it exactly right in my opinion.

00:10:50.580 | Okay.

00:10:51.180 | So that's why communism never works and can never work.

00:10:55.180 | So they, it's an idea of like, we're all going to work as hard as we

00:11:00.620 | possibly can and take only what we need.

00:11:02.700 | Where, when, when has that ever happened in the history of humanity?

00:11:07.260 | Right.

00:11:07.700 | We're just not built that way.

00:11:09.060 | So, okay.

00:11:10.220 | We can get into that debate with my friends on the left, et cetera.

00:11:13.420 | Now, corporatism is just as extreme and just as dangerous.

00:11:16.660 | And that is basically what we have in America now.

00:11:19.220 | Well, we have an American now, and this is another giant trick that

00:11:23.380 | the matrix played on everybody that they, they did in a shell game.

00:11:27.940 | And all of a sudden extreme corporatists like mansion and almost every

00:11:31.980 | Republican in the Senate are moderates.

00:11:34.620 | Oh my God.

00:11:35.300 | Mitch McConnell all of a sudden is a moderate and, uh, et cetera.

00:11:39.260 | As long as you're not a populist, populists are never moderate.

00:11:42.060 | Okay.

00:11:43.060 | But if you love corporations and corporate tax cuts and everything

00:11:47.420 | in favor of corporations, you're magically called a moderate when

00:11:50.340 | you actually, according to the polling have super extreme positions

00:11:53.380 | that the American people hate.

00:11:55.220 | And by the way, that's part of the reason for the rise of

00:11:57.460 | Trump and come back to that.

00:11:59.020 | Okay.

00:11:59.580 | But the second shell game is taking out capitalism, putting

00:12:05.100 | in corporatism, but still calling it capitalism.

00:12:07.380 | Okay.

00:12:08.200 | So what is corporatism?

00:12:09.540 | It is when a corporation slowly take over the system and create

00:12:13.540 | monopoly and oligopoly power.

00:12:15.540 | So that snuffs out equality of opportunity.

00:12:20.340 | So how do they do that?

00:12:21.980 | Uh, when people say the, the system is rigged, they oftentimes

00:12:27.700 | can't explain it that well.

00:12:28.940 | And then mainstream media goes, Oh, you sound conspiratorial rigged.

00:12:33.780 | Yeah.

00:12:34.060 | I wonder how, yeah, super easy to explain it.

00:12:37.700 | Here's one of dozens of examples, carried interest loophole.

00:12:41.420 | So that is for hedge funds, private equity, the, the top people on wall street.

00:12:47.580 | They that's part of their income.

00:12:49.580 | They get two and 20, right?

00:12:50.980 | So 2% is a flat fee, no matter what happens to the fund.

00:12:54.860 | And 20% of the profits of the fund goes back to the people who invested it.

00:12:59.620 | It's not their money.

00:13:01.700 | It's not their investment.

00:13:03.420 | Uh, what they're getting is actually just income and should

00:13:06.700 | be taxed at the highest rate.

00:13:07.940 | But it's because of this loophole it's taxed at a much lower rate at around 20%.

00:13:12.500 | So do you know at what income level you go above 20%, if you're a regular Joe,

00:13:18.340 | it's at $84,000 a year.

00:13:20.700 | So these billionaires are getting the same tax rate as people making $84,000 a year.

00:13:27.580 | It's unbelievably unfair.

00:13:30.300 | Uh, and that's corporatism taking over and starting to rig the rules.

00:13:33.860 | I'm going to pay less taxes.

00:13:35.060 | You're going to pay more taxes.

00:13:36.700 | Okay.

00:13:37.180 | So again, I can give you dozens of those examples.

00:13:39.980 | So, and mergers so that they get to oligopoly power.

00:13:43.860 | That's how you rig a system, lowering the corporate tax rates, making sure that

00:13:47.780 | there is no real minimum wage, making sure there's no universal healthcare.

00:13:51.980 | We all get become indentured servants of corporations.

00:13:55.700 | They take away power from the average guy, give it to the most

00:13:59.020 | powerful people in the world.

00:14:00.420 | So, and, but the most important distinction Lex is that

00:14:04.580 | corporatism hates competition.

00:14:06.620 | It wants monopoly and oligopoly power, whereas capitalism loves

00:14:12.300 | competition and wants to free markets.

00:14:14.500 | And I remember, uh, you know, we started young Turks back in 2002.

00:14:19.180 | So we've been around for 22 years, longest running daily show on the internet ever.

00:14:25.260 | Uh, and so we were pre Iraq war and Iraq war stars and Dick Cheney

00:14:30.780 | starts handing out no bid contracts.

00:14:33.460 | I'm like, what part of capitalism is a no bid contract?

00:14:37.820 | You can't negotiate drug prices.

00:14:40.020 | The most anti free market thing I have ever heard.

00:14:44.540 | It's almost like communism for corporations.

00:14:47.980 | They get everything you there and there you get nothing.

00:14:51.900 | Right.

00:14:52.420 | So it's, it's preposterous.

00:14:54.700 | It's awful.

00:14:55.660 | And, and it kills the free markets and it's killing this country.

00:14:59.900 | And it is the main ideology and religion of the establishment.

00:15:03.860 | Are all companies built the same here?

00:15:06.340 | So when you say corporatism, uh, it seems like just looking here at the

00:15:10.900 | list of, uh, by industry, uh, lobbyists, it seems like there are certain

00:15:17.620 | industries that are worse offenders than others, like pharmaceuticals,

00:15:22.420 | uh, like insurance, oil and gas.

00:15:25.300 | Yeah.

00:15:26.580 | So it seems to me, uh, it feels wrong to just throw all companies

00:15:32.340 | into the same bucket of like, they're all guilty.

00:15:35.140 | No, they're not all guilty.

00:15:37.100 | So let's make a bunch of distinctions here.

00:15:39.500 | So first of all, uh, can you, first of all, are they quote unquote guilty?

00:15:43.820 | No, they're doing something that is logical and natural, right?

00:15:46.820 | So if you're a company, do you want to pay higher taxes or lower taxes?

00:15:50.420 | Of course you want to pay lower taxes, right?

00:15:51.860 | Do you want to have higher employee costs or lower employee costs?

00:15:54.780 | Of course you want lower employee costs.

00:15:56.220 | Right.

00:15:56.540 | So, but the government needs to understand that and protect us from that power that

00:16:03.940 | they are going to exercise to get to those results.

00:16:07.420 | And if you, if you think free markets is there is no government, you, you read it

00:16:11.820 | wrong, go, read, go back and reread Adam Smith.

00:16:15.100 | He says, you must protect against monopoly power.

00:16:19.020 | If you do not protect against monopoly power, you will have no free

00:16:22.940 | markets and he's absolutely right.

00:16:25.420 | So second distinction is between small business and big business.

00:16:29.780 | That's why Republicans will always be like, oh, we're

00:16:31.820 | doing this for small business.

00:16:33.220 | That's why we got the biggest oil companies in the world.

00:16:35.860 | $30 billion in subsidies.

00:16:37.620 | What happened to small business?

00:16:39.020 | Right.

00:16:39.420 | So I run a small business.

00:16:41.220 | And so if people were to say like, Hey, uh, maybe there should be

00:16:46.860 | exemptions for some of the regulations.

00:16:48.860 | If your company has less than five employees, 10 employees, 50 employees,

00:16:52.420 | et cetera, there's some logic in that because businesses have different

00:16:56.100 | stages of growth and they have different interests and different

00:16:59.180 | needs in those stages of growth.

00:17:00.540 | And we want to facilitate small business growth because

00:17:04.620 | that's great for the economy.

00:17:05.900 | That's great for, uh, markets, freedom, et cetera.

00:17:09.140 | But the bigger corporations, even there, there's a third distinction.

00:17:12.620 | It isn't that there are certain industries that are worse.

00:17:15.980 | There's just that there are industries that are better at lobbying.

00:17:19.860 | So anyone who like right now, number one donor in Washington, a

00:17:24.900 | lot of people make a mistake.

00:17:26.060 | They think it's APAC or they think it's the oil companies or the banks.

00:17:29.900 | No, it's big pharma.

00:17:31.380 | Okay.

00:17:32.100 | And who has the most power in this country?

00:17:34.620 | Big pharma.

00:17:35.740 | So we can't even negotiate the drug prices.

00:17:39.140 | I mean, look guys, think about it this way.

00:17:41.260 | That's like saying, okay, here's a bottle of water.

00:17:43.300 | And normally in the free market, that would cost about a dollar.

00:17:46.740 | Right.

00:17:47.740 | And in the, uh, for Medicare, the drug companies come in and go, no, I'm

00:17:52.220 | not charging a dollar for that water.

00:17:53.540 | I'm charging a hundred dollars.

00:17:54.660 | And the government has to say, yes, sir.

00:17:56.780 | Thank you, sir.

00:17:57.340 | Of course, sir, we'll pay a hundred dollars.

00:17:58.980 | That's that's, that's why compared to communism, because I can't

00:18:04.140 | imagine anything more diametrically opposed to the free market.

00:18:07.060 | You, the consumer have to pay whatever the hell a corporation charges.

00:18:12.180 | That's insanity, let alone the patents, let alone the fact that the American

00:18:16.820 | people pay for the research and then they make billions of dollars off of it.

00:18:20.420 | And we get nothing but robbed by them.

00:18:22.340 | So it's about lobby power.

00:18:24.060 | Oil companies have huge lobby power.

00:18:26.020 | Defense contractors have huge lobby power.

00:18:28.540 | It's not that they're more evil.

00:18:30.460 | It's just that they have figured out the game better.

00:18:32.740 | And they have basically taken the influence they need to capture

00:18:37.140 | the market, capture the government and, and snuff out all competition.

00:18:40.860 | Well, uh, figured out the game better.

00:18:46.380 | So I think a lot of companies are good at winning the right way by

00:18:52.620 | building better products, by, um, you know, making people happier with

00:18:56.620 | the work that they're doing and winning at the game of capitalism.

00:19:00.020 | And then there's other companies that win at the game of lobbying.

00:19:03.580 | And I just want to sort of draw that distinction because I think it's

00:19:06.900 | a small subset of companies that are playing the game of lobbying.

00:19:10.660 | It's like big pharma.

00:19:11.860 | So Lex, I, first of all, you have to set rules for what makes sense.

00:19:15.740 | Not, Oh, I don't like this industry.

00:19:17.980 | I don't like this company or, Hey, this company is not doing

00:19:20.820 | that much lobbying at this point.

00:19:22.300 | They will later when they realize what's going on.

00:19:24.540 | So for example, in my opinion, APAC has totally bought almost all of Congress.

00:19:28.780 | And so now other countries are going to wake up and go, wait, you could

00:19:34.020 | just buy the American government.

00:19:35.420 | So APAC is going to spend about a hundred million dollars in this cycle.

00:19:39.340 | And they're going to, and then they're getting 26 billion back.

00:19:42.900 | So every country in the world is soon going to realize, Oh, take

00:19:46.260 | American citizens that live there, get them a tremendous amount of money

00:19:50.500 | and just buy the U S government.

00:19:52.140 | Right.

00:19:52.620 | So that, but for corporations, they've already realized

00:19:55.900 | that on a massive scale, right?

00:19:58.020 | So for example, in the two industries, you gave automotive.

00:20:02.100 | So in New Jersey, about a decade ago or so, one of the most

00:20:06.540 | powerful lobbies is, uh, car dealerships.

00:20:09.580 | So at the national level, you got pharma and you've got

00:20:12.940 | defense contractors, et cetera.

00:20:14.060 | At the local level, guys who have huge power, number one is utilities.

00:20:18.060 | Number two is real estate.

00:20:19.700 | And then car dealerships are hilariously among the top, right?

00:20:23.060 | Because it's local businesses that are, you know, financing the

00:20:26.780 | politicians at the local level.

00:20:28.140 | So they passed a law, uh, saying that, uh, you have to

00:20:32.700 | sell through dealerships, but Tesla doesn't sell through dealerships.

00:20:36.580 | And it was intended to bully, intimidate, and push out

00:20:40.220 | Tesla out of the market.

00:20:41.700 | They then did that in a number of different states

00:20:44.100 | throughout the country.

00:20:44.940 | So does that make any sense in a democracy?

00:20:48.020 | Of course not.

00:20:48.660 | Why you could, why do you have to sell your product through

00:20:51.020 | a specific vehicle or medium?

00:20:52.580 | You can sell it any way you like.

00:20:54.280 | That's the most anti free market thing possible.

00:20:56.420 | Why it was just total utter corruption.

00:20:59.220 | And, but it's not, but it's perfectly legal.

00:21:01.660 | The Supreme court legalized bribery.

00:21:03.820 | So then what happened in that case?

00:21:05.460 | So then Elon came in and gave campaign contributions and reversed it.

00:21:10.980 | So now we're in a battle where it's an open auction, right?

00:21:14.460 | Different companies are buying different politicians and then

00:21:17.860 | they're pretending to have debates about principles and ideas, et cetera.

00:21:21.980 | So now let's look at tech.

00:21:24.380 | Um, in the beginning, Facebook was not spending any money in policy

00:21:27.940 | or almost any money in politics.

00:21:29.540 | So what happens?

00:21:31.060 | They're getting hammered.

00:21:32.820 | They get pulled into congressional hearings and Facebook's got fake

00:21:37.060 | news and oh my God, all these trouble from Facebook, then

00:21:40.540 | Facebook does the logical thing.

00:21:42.160 | Oh, it turns out I need to grease these sons of bitches.

00:21:44.700 | Okay.

00:21:45.300 | So then they hire a whole bunch of Republicans consultants.

00:21:48.380 | They go grease all the Republicans and most of the corporate Democrats.

00:21:52.340 | And then all of a sudden we're no longer talking about Facebook

00:21:55.740 | at all, and Facebook are angels.

00:21:57.620 | And now we've turned our attention to who Facebook's top competitor.

00:22:02.060 | Tick-tock funny how that works.

00:22:04.500 | Okay.

00:22:05.740 | And by the way, then Donald Trump goes, oh, I, and Tick-Tock's big dangerous

00:22:10.620 | company, they're working with China.

00:22:12.620 | Okay.

00:22:13.240 | And then Jeff Yass comes in on this cycle, part owner of Tick-Tock

00:22:17.900 | and he doesn't want Tick-Tock banished, of course.

00:22:20.860 | Right.

00:22:21.380 | So he gives Trump a couple of million dollars.

00:22:23.660 | Trump turns around the next day and goes, we love Tick-Tock.

00:22:26.860 | Tick-Tock's a good company.

00:22:28.260 | Right.

00:22:29.140 | So that's a big contributor to, uh, influencing what politicians

00:22:34.420 | say and what they think, but it's not the entire thing, right?

00:22:36.940 | No, it is.

00:22:37.500 | It's 98%.

00:22:38.580 | I'll go on mainstream media and they'll be like, oh, I see what you're saying.

00:22:41.780 | I can see how that influences politicians about 10%.

00:22:45.020 | I'm like, no, no, it's 98%.

00:22:47.740 | So, and even 50, a lot of good people think it's 50, 50, they

00:22:51.860 | have principles and they have money.

00:22:53.540 | No, they have money and this major principles.

00:22:56.540 | That's why I wanted to clarify 98 too.

00:22:58.500 | Okay.

00:22:59.100 | So how do we, how do we fix it?

00:23:00.740 | So it's really interesting and nice that you're pro

00:23:03.820 | capitalism and anti-corporatism.

00:23:05.820 | So how do we create a system where the free market can rule or capitalism

00:23:12.540 | can rule, we can have these vibrant flourishing of all these companies

00:23:17.260 | competing against each other and creating awesome stuff.

00:23:19.340 | Yeah.

00:23:20.440 | So in the book, I call it democratic capitalism as opposed to

00:23:24.380 | Bernie's democratic socialism, right?

00:23:26.060 | We can get into that distinction in a minute, but.

00:23:28.860 | Um, so as Adam Smith said, and anyone who studies, uh, capitalism

00:23:34.740 | knows you need the government to protect the market as well as the

00:23:39.020 | people, because so like, why do we have cops?

00:23:41.940 | Because if we don't have cops, somebody is going to go, well, I

00:23:44.380 | like Lex's equipment, why don't I just go into his house and take it?

00:23:47.420 | Right.

00:23:48.200 | So you need the cops to protect you and that's the government.

00:23:50.700 | So people say, oh, I hate big government.

00:23:52.940 | Do you, right?

00:23:54.340 | It depends, right?

00:23:55.180 | If your house is getting robbed, all of a sudden you like the government.

00:23:57.460 | But you also need comps on wall street, because if you allow

00:24:00.820 | insider trading, the powerful are going to rob you blind and the

00:24:03.620 | little guy's going to get screwed.

00:24:04.800 | So that's this easy example.

00:24:06.500 | And so if you don't have those cops, the bad guys are going to take over.

00:24:11.860 | They're going to set the rules, rig the rules in their favor.

00:24:14.700 | So that that's why you need regulation.

00:24:17.820 | And so the Republicans on purpose made regulation a dirty word.

00:24:22.100 | They're like, oh, we're all regulation is bad.

00:24:25.180 | And, and then sometimes on the left, people fall for the

00:24:27.740 | trap of all regulation is good.

00:24:29.560 | A guy I liken on has a great analogy on this Matt Stoller.

00:24:34.180 | He's one of the original, I would argue progressives.

00:24:37.340 | And there's about four of us.

00:24:39.220 | I'm sure there's more, but that have stayed true to the original

00:24:42.900 | meaning of progressivism and populism.

00:24:45.300 | Me, Matt Stoller, David Sirota, Ryan Grimm.

00:24:49.300 | Okay.

00:24:50.200 | And they used to be in that original blogger group, there

00:24:54.180 | was guys like Glenn Greenwald and other interesting cats, right.

00:24:57.340 | But they went in different directions.

00:24:58.740 | So Matt has a great line.

00:25:01.740 | He says, um, if somebody comes up to you and says,

00:25:05.220 | how big a pipe do you want?

00:25:06.980 | There is no answer for that.

00:25:09.780 | It depends on the job.

00:25:10.980 | Doesn't it, right?

00:25:12.380 | What are we doing?

00:25:13.540 | What are we building?

00:25:14.420 | I, I'm going to tell you the size of the pipe

00:25:16.340 | depending on the project.

00:25:18.060 | So when people say, are you in favor of regulation or against it?

00:25:22.220 | That's an absurd question.

00:25:24.060 | Of course you need regulation.

00:25:25.180 | It just means laws, right?

00:25:26.660 | So don't kill your neighbor is a regulation, right?

00:25:31.060 | So, uh, my idea is a simple one.

00:25:34.620 | And one, we're going to keep coming back to balance.

00:25:36.780 | So when my dad was a small business owner in New Jersey, uh, and they inspected

00:25:42.420 | the elevator six times a year, that was over regulation.

00:25:45.580 | And I said to my dad, so should they not inspected at all?

00:25:48.860 | I'm a young kid growing up.

00:25:50.020 | And he said, no, no, no, no.

00:25:51.540 | You got to inspect it at least twice a year.

00:25:53.140 | I said, why?

00:25:54.340 | He said, because in Turkey, sometimes they don't inspect it

00:25:56.900 | and then the elevator falls.

00:25:58.140 | Okay.

00:25:58.920 | So, so bounds are reason correct regulation to protect the markets

00:26:04.260 | and to protect the American people.

00:26:05.620 | Yeah.

00:26:06.660 | But finding the right level of regulation, especially in, for example, in tech,

00:26:10.540 | something I'm much more familiar with, it's very difficult because, uh, people

00:26:14.500 | in Congress are living in the 20th century before the internet was, uh, uh, invented.

00:26:20.580 | So like, how are they supposed to come up with regulations?

00:26:23.980 | Yeah.

00:26:24.340 | Well, that's the idea of the free market is you should be able to sort

00:26:26.900 | of compete the market regulates.

00:26:28.900 | And then the government can step in and protect, uh, the market from forming

00:26:34.660 | monopolies, for example, which is easier to do.

00:26:36.900 | Yeah.

00:26:37.100 | But that's a form of regulation.

00:26:38.380 | Right.

00:26:38.660 | But then there's like more checking the elevator twice a year.

00:26:41.980 | That's a more sort of specific watching micromanaging.

00:26:46.020 | So Lex, here's the deal.

00:26:48.060 | There is no way around the, the laws are made by politicians.

00:26:53.060 | Okay.

00:26:54.020 | So, and so you can't give up then and go, oh, it's a bunch of schmucks who I

00:26:59.980 | think most politicians are just servants for the donor class, right?

00:27:03.300 | The, you know, the media makes it sound like they're the best of us.

00:27:06.220 | Oh, they deserve a lot of honor and respect and they kiss their ass, et cetera.

00:27:09.820 | I think generally speaking, they're usually the worst of us, especially in

00:27:13.820 | this corporate structure, right?

00:27:15.420 | Because they're the guys who, uh, their number one talent is yes, sir.

00:27:20.380 | No, sir.

00:27:21.340 | What would you like me to do with your donor money, sir?

00:27:23.740 | Absolutely.

00:27:24.380 | I'll serve you completely or 98%.

00:27:27.020 | Right.

00:27:27.660 | So in this structure, the politicians are the worst of us, but at some point

00:27:31.940 | you need somebody elected to be your representative to do democratic

00:27:36.060 | capitalism so that you have capitalism, but it's checked by the

00:27:39.700 | government on behalf of the people.

00:27:41.620 | It's the people that are saying, these are the rules of the land

00:27:46.100 | and, and you have to abide by them.

00:27:48.220 | So the, how do you get to the best possible answer, which is related

00:27:54.060 | to an earlier question you asked Lex, which is the number one thing you

00:27:58.420 | have to do is get big money out of politics, everything else is near

00:28:03.500 | impossible as long as we are drowned in money and whoever has more money wins.

00:28:08.460 | And by the way, when it comes to legislation, again, that's

00:28:11.300 | true about 98% of the time.

00:28:12.980 | Like we predict things ahead of time.

00:28:14.620 | People were like, wow, how did you know that that bill wasn't

00:28:17.020 | going to pass or was going to pass?

00:28:18.260 | It's the easiest thing in the world.

00:28:20.100 | And we like literally like teach our audience on the young Turks, watch,

00:28:24.700 | you'll be able to see for yourself.

00:28:26.260 | And now like our members comment in, they do these predictions.

00:28:29.860 | They're almost always right.

00:28:31.000 | Right.

00:28:31.420 | Because it's so simple, follow the money.

00:28:33.460 | So if you get big money out of politics and I can explain how to do that in a

00:28:37.460 | sec, um, then you're at a place where you got your best shot at honest

00:28:44.100 | representatives that are going to try their best to get to the right answer.

00:28:47.700 | Are they going to get to the right answer out of the gate?

00:28:49.540 | Usually not.

00:28:50.500 | So they pass a law.

00:28:52.020 | There's something wrong with the law.

00:28:53.220 | They then fix that part.

00:28:54.820 | They it's a pendulum, you know, you don't want it to swing too wildly, but

00:28:59.060 | you do need a little bit of oscillation in that pendulum to get to the right.

00:29:02.620 | By the way, I was, uh, listening to, uh, Joe Biden from when he

00:29:07.620 | was like 30 years old, the speeches, he was eloquent as hell.

00:29:12.140 | It's fun to listen to actually.

00:29:13.500 | And he has a speech he gives, or just maybe a conversation in Congress.

00:29:18.300 | I'm not sure where, where he talks about how corrupt the whole system is.

00:29:21.900 | And he, and he's really honest and like fun.

00:29:25.940 | And, uh, that Joe Biden is great, by the way, that guy, I mean, age, age sucks,

00:29:31.300 | you know, people get older, but he was talking quite honestly about like having

00:29:35.540 | to suck up to all these rich people and that he couldn't really suck up to the

00:29:39.980 | really rich people, uh, uh, they said, uh, come back to us 10 years later when

00:29:46.100 | you're like more, more integrated into the system, but he was really honest about it.

00:29:50.060 | And he's saying that's, um, that's how it is.

00:29:53.540 | That's what we have to do.

00:29:54.620 | And that really sucks that that's what we have to do.

00:29:56.500 | Yeah.

00:29:57.340 | So we did a video on our TikTok channel then and now Joe Biden, this is

00:30:03.180 | when I was trying to push Biden out.

00:30:04.900 | We should say you're one of the people early on saying Biden needs to step down.

00:30:10.060 | Yeah.

00:30:10.300 | I started about a year ago because I was positive that Biden

00:30:12.860 | had a 0% chance of winning.

00:30:14.300 | And, uh, and it turned out, by the way, uh, two days before he dropped

00:30:18.780 | out, his inside advisors inside the white house said, yeah,

00:30:22.940 | near 0% chance of winning.

00:30:24.380 | Yeah.

00:30:24.620 | So we were right all along.

00:30:25.780 | You got a lot of criticism for that, by the way, but yeah.

00:30:27.940 | Yeah.

00:30:28.380 | Well, we can come back to that.

00:30:29.540 | Yes, I did.

00:30:30.060 | And which makes it Tuesday for me.

00:30:32.100 | Uh, I get a lot of criticism for everything.

00:30:35.780 | Uh, and by the way, democratic party, you're welcome.

00:30:39.500 | Uh, so, but, uh, Biden's a really interesting example.

00:30:45.420 | I'm really glad you brought it up.

00:30:46.380 | So the video on TikTok was just showing Biden then Biden now.

00:30:49.980 | And you're right.

00:30:50.780 | Biden was so dynamic.

00:30:52.100 | When you see how dynamic he was, we did like side by side.

00:30:55.180 | Right.

00:30:55.500 | And then you see him now going, you're barely finishing anyways.

00:30:59.580 | Right.

00:31:00.140 | You're like, oh, that's not the same guy.

00:31:01.580 | I get it.

00:31:02.020 | Right.

00:31:02.540 | So, and I got like 5 million views because it resonates.

00:31:06.220 | They're like, yeah, yeah, of course.

00:31:07.780 | Right.

00:31:08.340 | But when he first started to the point you were making Lex, he

00:31:11.620 | want to, in fact, I know, cause I talked to him about this.

00:31:13.940 | Uh, his very first bill was anti-corruption.

00:31:17.700 | Why?

00:31:18.620 | Cause at that point, everything changes in 1976 to 78 is Supreme

00:31:22.660 | court decisions that basically legalized bribery, but remember

00:31:25.860 | Biden is ancient, so he's coming into politics at a time when

00:31:29.820 | money has not yet drowned politics.

00:31:31.900 | And in fact, the American population is super pissed about

00:31:35.060 | the fact that it's begun.

00:31:36.540 | They don't like corruption.

00:31:38.220 | So early Biden, because he's reading the room is very anti-corruption.

00:31:43.180 | And the first bill he proposes to get money out of politics.

00:31:46.140 | Okay.

00:31:46.740 | But as Biden goes on for his epic 200 year career in Washington, he

00:31:52.820 | starts to get not more conservative, more corporate because he's

00:31:56.660 | just taking more and more money by the middle of his career.

00:31:59.300 | He has a nickname, the Senator from MBNA.

00:32:02.420 | Okay.

00:32:03.580 | MBNA was a credit card company based in Delaware.

00:32:07.340 | And the reason he had that nickname is because there isn't anything

00:32:10.180 | Joe Biden wouldn't have done for credit card companies and corporations

00:32:14.740 | based in Delaware, which are almost all corporations.

00:32:17.060 | Okay.

00:32:17.620 | So he became the most corporate Senator in the country and hence

00:32:23.460 | the most beloved by corporate media and corporate media has protected him

00:32:28.340 | his entire career until about a month ago.

00:32:30.820 | So for example, in the primaries, both in 2020 and 2024, if you said

00:32:35.700 | the Senator from MBNA, I guarantee you almost no one in the audience

00:32:39.460 | has heard of it, if you heard of it, good job, you know, politics really well.

00:32:42.580 | Okay.

00:32:43.140 | But the reason you didn't hear of it is because the mainstream media

00:32:46.420 | wouldn't say that's outrageous of Joe Biden to be such a corporate stooge.

00:32:50.380 | They'd say, that's outrageous of you to point out something that's true

00:32:53.740 | and something we reported on earlier.

00:32:55.820 | Okay.

00:32:56.540 | And so they protected him at all costs.

00:32:58.980 | Now, finally, when you get to this version of Joe Biden, we, he can't talk.

00:33:05.460 | He can't walk.

00:33:06.540 | He's he bears no resemblance to the young guy who came in saying

00:33:11.820 | that money in politics was a problem.

00:33:13.380 | Now he's saying money in politics is the solution.

00:33:16.180 | And in 2020, he said, well, I can raise more money than Bernie.

00:33:19.700 | I can kiss corporate ass better than Bernie.

00:33:22.820 | I'm the biggest corporate ass kisser in the world.

00:33:25.300 | So I'm going to raise a billion dollars and you need to support me.

00:33:28.180 | Now, of course he doesn't say it in those words, but that was the

00:33:31.180 | message to the establishment and Buttigieg, Klobuchar, Obama, Clyburn,

00:33:35.100 | everybody goes, Oh, that's right.

00:33:36.300 | Oh, Biden, Biden, Biden, Biden, not Bernie.

00:33:39.260 | I don't know that there's anybody in the country who instinctually

00:33:43.260 | dislikes Bernie more than Barack Obama.

00:33:45.220 | Oh, that's an interesting, I'm not taking attention at this moment.

00:33:49.420 | Let's because you mentioned mainstream media.

00:33:51.300 | What's the motivation for mainstream media to be corporatist also.

00:33:54.740 | So first of all, they're giant corporations.

00:33:58.180 | So they're all multi-billion dollar corporations.

00:34:00.940 | In the old days, we had an incredible number of media outlets.

00:34:05.460 | So you go to San Francisco, there'd be at least two papers

00:34:08.220 | and there'd be a paper boy.

00:34:09.740 | I'm going all the way back, paper boy on each corner.

00:34:12.420 | And they're competing with one another.

00:34:13.700 | Literally they'd be catty corner.

00:34:15.100 | Right.

00:34:15.500 | And one guy's going, Oh, I hear all this details.

00:34:18.540 | They're trying to get an audience.

00:34:20.100 | They're trying to get people interested.

00:34:21.860 | So they're populist.

00:34:22.860 | They're interesting.

00:34:23.740 | They're muckrakers.

00:34:24.820 | They're challenging the government.

00:34:27.220 | Fast forward to now or not now, but about a decade ago, five years

00:34:34.500 | ago in that ballpark, in that ballpark.

00:34:36.540 | Now there's only six giant core media corporations left and it's an oligopoly.

00:34:41.420 | Right.

00:34:41.980 | And they're all multi-billion dollar corporations.

00:34:43.940 | They all want tax cuts.

00:34:45.820 | Half of them are also, especially about 20 years ago during the Iraq war,

00:34:50.220 | half of them are defense contractors.

00:34:51.700 | So they're just using the news as marketing to start wars like the Iraq war.

00:34:56.500 | And then GE, which owned MSNBC makes a tremendous amount of money.

00:35:01.220 | So much more money from war than it does for media.

00:35:04.420 | That media is a good marketing spend for these corporations.

00:35:09.100 | Now that's part of it that they themselves want the same exact thing as corporate,

00:35:14.420 | the rest of corporations do for corporate rule, lower tax cuts, deregulation

00:35:18.540 | so they can merge, et cetera.

00:35:20.180 | But the second part of it is arguably even more important.

00:35:24.260 | So where does all that money in politics go?

00:35:26.820 | So for example, in 2022, it's just a midterm election.

00:35:31.020 | Not no presidential should be lower spending.

00:35:33.660 | A ridiculous $17 billion are spent.

00:35:37.740 | Okay.

00:35:38.460 | On, on the election cycle, where does the 17 billion go?

00:35:41.820 | Almost all of it goes into corporate media, mainstream media,

00:35:46.340 | television, newspapers, radio.

00:35:47.820 | They're buying ads like nuts.

00:35:49.860 | So we have a reporter at TYT, David Schuster.

00:35:53.180 | He used to work at MSNBC, Fox news, et cetera.

00:35:55.660 | And David once did a piece about money and politics at a local NBC

00:36:00.060 | news station and his, uh, editor or GM spiked a story and David goes

00:36:07.460 | into his office and asked him.

00:36:08.540 | So why this story is true.

00:36:11.500 | It's a huge part of politics.

00:36:13.220 | If we're going to report on this issue, we got to tell

00:36:15.780 | you what's actually happening.

00:36:16.780 | So he says, David, come here.

00:36:18.380 | It puts his arm around his shoulders, takes him to the big newsroom.

00:36:21.900 | And he goes, you see all this money in politics paid for that.

00:36:26.100 | That's really fascinating.

00:36:29.460 | So big corporations are giving money to politicians, to different channels.

00:36:34.740 | And then the politicians are spending that money on mainstream media.

00:36:38.900 | And, and, and so there's a, there's a vicious cycle where it's in the

00:36:45.380 | interest of the mainstream media, not to criticize the very corporations

00:36:48.460 | that are feeding that cycle.

00:36:50.300 | So that actually direct, it's not like corporations are, cause I was thinking

00:36:55.100 | one of the ways is direct advertisement, like pharmaceuticals, obviously

00:36:59.620 | advertise a lot on a mainstream media, but there's also indirect, which is

00:37:05.060 | like giving the politicians money or, or, or super PACs and the super

00:37:08.780 | PACs and spend money on the.

00:37:10.140 | That's why media never mainstream media never talks about the number

00:37:16.420 | one factor in politics, which is money.

00:37:18.660 | Like we all know, I mean, you, now we, as we talked about earlier, we

00:37:21.820 | see it with our own eyes, open auction, any country, any company, anybody

00:37:25.740 | that has money, the politicians will now literally say, I am now working

00:37:29.300 | for this guy as Trump says, cause he gave me a strong endorsement,

00:37:33.700 | which means a lot of money.

00:37:34.700 | Right.

00:37:35.380 | And so, and the press never covers it almost never.

00:37:39.540 | Right.

00:37:39.980 | So you're telling me you're doing a, uh, an article on the infrastructure

00:37:43.860 | build or build back better, et cetera.

00:37:47.060 | And you're not going to mention the enormous amount of money that

00:37:51.100 | every lobbyist spent on that bill.

00:37:52.940 | That's absurd.

00:37:54.980 | That's absurd.

00:37:55.940 | That's 98% of the ball game.

00:37:57.540 | And the reason they hide the ball is because they don't want you to know

00:38:00.740 | this whole thing is based on the money that they are receiving.

00:38:04.300 | And, and by the way, that one more thing about that, Lex, it's

00:38:07.580 | that the ads themselves, actually they work and they work pretty well, but

00:38:15.980 | that's not the main reason you spend money on ads, you spend the money

00:38:20.100 | in ads to get friendly coverage from the content, from the free media that

00:38:25.460 | you're getting from that same outlet.

00:38:26.980 | And so since every newspaper and every news television station and network

00:38:33.260 | knows that the democratic party and the Republican party are their top clients.

00:38:38.420 | They're going to get billions of dollars from them.

00:38:40.700 | They never really criticized the Republican and Democratic party.

00:38:44.260 | On the other hand, if you're an outsider, they'll rip your face off.

00:38:47.260 | That's also really interesting.

00:38:50.420 | So if you're an advertiser, if you're big farmer and you're advertising, it's

00:38:54.780 | not that the advertisement works is that the hosts are too afraid, not like

00:39:01.460 | explicitly, just even implicitly, they're self-censoring, they're not going to

00:39:05.660 | have any guests that are like controversial, anti big pharma, or they're

00:39:10.420 | not going to make any jokes about big pharma.

00:39:12.340 | They're not going to make that.

00:39:13.620 | And that, and that kind of, that continues and expands.

00:39:16.420 | That's really interesting.

00:39:18.060 | Sometimes it's super direct.

00:39:19.620 | When I was a host on MSNBC, I had a company that I was criticizing

00:39:25.900 | in my script and management looked at it.

00:39:29.340 | And by the way, I used to go off prompter a lot and it drove him crazy.

00:39:31.860 | Not because I wasn't good at it.

00:39:33.420 | I think my ratings went up whenever I went off prompter, but because

00:39:37.820 | they couldn't pre-approve the script.

00:39:39.820 | And what do they want to pre-approve?

00:39:42.060 | Hey, are you going to criticize one of our sponsors, one

00:39:44.820 | of our advertisers, et cetera?

00:39:46.300 | So they, uh, we had a giant fight over it and the compromise was I

00:39:51.300 | moved them lower in the script, but kept them in the story, right?

00:39:54.860 | So sometimes it's super direct like that, but more, way more

00:39:58.660 | often it's implicit, it's indirect.

00:40:01.300 | You don't have to say it right.

00:40:03.100 | So I give you a spectacular example of it so that you get a

00:40:08.300 | sense of how it works implicitly.

00:40:10.660 | So since GE is a giant defense contractor, they own MSNBC

00:40:15.620 | at the time of the Iraq war.

00:40:16.940 | They fired everyone who was against the Iraq war on air.

00:40:19.740 | So Phil Donahue, Jesse Ventura, Ashley Banfield, but Ashley Banfield,

00:40:24.300 | they did something different with, okay.

00:40:25.820 | She was a rising star at the time.

00:40:27.500 | She goes and gives a speech in Kansas, not really even

00:40:32.540 | having a policy position, but just talking about the actual

00:40:35.460 | costs of this Iraq war and how we should be really careful.

00:40:39.700 | They hate that.

00:40:40.980 | So they take their rising star and they take her off air.

00:40:43.740 | Okay.

00:40:44.380 | And she goes, okay, good.

00:40:45.580 | Let me out of my contract.

00:40:46.580 | It's okay.

00:40:46.940 | I'll go because she was such a star at that time.

00:40:48.740 | She could have easily gotten somewhere else and they go, no, we're not

00:40:51.900 | going to let you out of your contract.

00:40:53.060 | Why not?

00:40:54.540 | You're going to pay me to do nothing?

00:40:55.860 | Yeah.

00:40:56.220 | Not only that, we're moving your office.

00:40:58.220 | Where are you moving it to?

00:40:59.140 | They literally moved it into a closet.

00:41:01.420 | Okay.

00:41:02.540 | And they made sure that everybody in the building saw her getting taken

00:41:07.620 | off the air and moved into a closet.

00:41:09.940 | The closet is the memo, right?

00:41:12.460 | That's the memo to the whole building.

00:41:14.240 | You better shut up and do as you're told.

00:41:16.940 | Okay.

00:41:17.820 | So that way I don't have to tell you and get myself in trouble.

00:41:21.660 | It's super obvious.

00:41:22.700 | There are guardrails here and you are not allowed to go beyond acceptable thought.

00:41:27.300 | And acceptable thought is our sponsors are great.

00:41:30.060 | Politicians are great.

00:41:31.220 | The powerful are great.

00:41:32.500 | So how do we, uh, how do we begin to fix that?

00:41:35.740 | And what exactly are we fixing?

00:41:37.020 | Is that, uh, the influence of the lobbyists, the influence of like, it

00:41:40.580 | feels like there's, uh, companies have found different ways to achieve influence.

00:41:47.060 | Right.

00:41:47.460 | So how do we get money out of politics?

00:41:50.100 | So it's very difficult, but doable and we will do it.

00:41:53.140 | So, but in order to do it, the populist left and the populist right have to

00:41:57.500 | unite because, and by the way, that is why we have the culture wars.

00:42:01.460 | That's why you're voting for Trump.

00:42:02.580 | No chance.

00:42:05.060 | Okay.

00:42:05.620 | So we can get into that in a minute.

00:42:06.900 | So the culture wars are meant to divide us.

00:42:09.700 | If we, if we get united, we have enough leverage and power to be able to do it,

00:42:13.620 | but, uh, you can't do it through a normal bill because if you do it in a bill, the

00:42:18.260 | whole point of capturing the Supreme court was to make sure that they kill any piece

00:42:22.900 | of legislation that would protect the American people.

00:42:24.900 | You're saying the Supreme court is also captured by this?

00:42:26.900 | Oh, a hundred percent.

00:42:27.740 | So, okay.

00:42:29.180 | So let me explain again, people for the uninitiated, they think,

00:42:33.140 | oh, that sounds conspiratorial.

00:42:34.700 | Well, in this case, that's actually somewhat true because people

00:42:39.260 | now know about this.

00:42:40.740 | It's the Powell memo, right?

00:42:41.900 | The most infamous political memo in history.

00:42:44.260 | Lewis Powell writes a memo for the chamber of commerce in 1971.

00:42:47.860 | That's basically a blueprint for how the chamber of commerce

00:42:50.820 | can take over the government.

00:42:51.980 | And Lewis Powell explains one of the most important things you have

00:42:55.140 | to do is take over the media.

00:42:56.980 | But even more important than that is taking over the Supreme court

00:42:59.940 | because the Supreme court is the ultimate arbiter of what

00:43:03.380 | is allowed and not allowed.

00:43:04.820 | And he says, we need quote, activist judges to, to help

00:43:13.380 | business interests on the court.

00:43:15.700 | Okay.

00:43:16.420 | And then Nixon reads the memo and goes, that sounds like a really good idea.

00:43:20.620 | How about I put you on the Supreme court?

00:43:22.460 | And he puts Lewis Powell, the guy who wrote the memo on the Supreme court,

00:43:26.140 | where he's the deciding vote in Belotti and, uh, and, uh, Buckley.

00:43:31.540 | So a lot of these, uh, those two decisions are 76 to 78.

00:43:35.140 | And what they say is yeah.

00:43:37.340 | Yeah.

00:43:37.820 | I read the constitution and it says that money is speech.

00:43:40.980 | No, it isn't.

00:43:42.420 | And no, it didn't.

00:43:43.900 | That's not even close to true.

00:43:45.500 | They just made it up and they said, okay.

00:43:48.220 | And corporations, they're human beings.

00:43:50.700 | No, they're not.

00:43:51.940 | That's preposterous.

00:43:53.180 | Right.

00:43:53.580 | And they have the same inalienable rights as human beings and citizens do.

00:43:59.940 | And money is speech and speech is an inalienable right.

00:44:04.900 | So corporations can spend unlimited money in politics.

00:44:07.940 | And there goes our democracy gone.

00:44:09.820 | Okay.

00:44:10.580 | So citizens United just shot a dead horse with a Gatling gun and made it

00:44:14.940 | worse and put it on steroids, but it was already dead in 78.

00:44:18.140 | So that's why every chart you see for the rest of your life, you'll see this,

00:44:22.580 | um, every chart and about the American economy starts to diverge in 1978.

00:44:28.900 | So until 38 to 78, we have golden 40 years of economic prosperity.

00:44:34.260 | We create the greatest middle-class the world has ever seen.

00:44:38.820 | And, uh, our productivity is sky high, but our

00:44:42.740 | wages match our productivity.

00:44:44.860 | After 78 productivity is still sky high best in the world.

00:44:50.220 | Okay.

00:44:50.500 | Sometimes people, all the American workers, lazy, not remotely true.

00:44:54.300 | We work our ass off.

00:44:55.380 | Okay.

00:44:56.580 | But wages flatline and they've been flatlining for about 50 years straight.

00:45:01.380 | And the reason is because the Supreme court made bribery legal.

00:45:05.700 | So in order to get past the Supreme court, you only have

00:45:08.540 | one choice, that's an amendment.

00:45:10.420 | And so you have to get an amendment.

00:45:12.620 | Amendments are very difficult, but so for example, you, you need two thirds

00:45:17.660 | of Congress to even propose the amendment.

00:45:20.140 | So, well, why would Congress propose an amendment that would

00:45:23.980 | take away their own power?

00:45:25.220 | Right.

00:45:25.620 | Cause almost everybody in Congress got there through corruption.

00:45:28.700 | Their main talent is I can kiss corporate ass better than you can.

00:45:32.300 | Right.

00:45:32.900 | So I, they take the most amount of a person with more money in

00:45:36.380 | Congress wins 95% of the time.

00:45:38.220 | Right.

00:45:38.820 | But the good news is the founding fathers were geniuses and

00:45:42.180 | they put in a second outlet.

00:45:43.380 | They said, or two thirds of the States can call for a convention

00:45:47.940 | where you can propose an amendment.

00:45:49.780 | And after an amendment is proposed, then three quarters

00:45:53.260 | of the States have to ratify it.

00:45:54.940 | That's what makes it so difficult because getting three quarters of

00:45:58.380 | the States, there's so many red States, so many blue States getting

00:46:02.100 | three quarters of the States to agree is near impossible, but there is one

00:46:05.540 | issue that the whole country agrees on.

00:46:07.140 | 93% of Americans believe that politicians serve their donors and not their voters.

00:46:13.060 | So this is the one thing we can unite on.

00:46:15.460 | If we unite on this, we push our States to call for a convention.

00:46:19.220 | We all go to the convention together.

00:46:21.020 | We bring democracy alive and we propose amendments to the constitution.

00:46:26.100 | Um, the best amendment gets three quarters of the States to ratify.

00:46:29.700 | You go above the Supreme court and you solve the whole thing.

00:46:33.060 | So if 93% of people want this, why hasn't it happened yet?

00:46:39.020 | I mean, the obvious answer is there's a corporate control of

00:46:42.620 | the media and the politicians, but it seems like our current system.

00:46:47.460 | And the megaphone that a president has, you should be able to kind

00:46:52.340 | of unite the populace left and right.

00:46:54.420 | So it shouldn't be that difficult to do.

00:46:56.420 | Like, why hasn't a person like Trump was a billionaire or on the left,

00:47:01.380 | um, a rich businessman run just on this and win.

00:47:05.700 | Well, eventually they will.

00:47:07.620 | Right.

00:47:08.260 | And so that's why I actually have a lot of hope, even though

00:47:10.780 | things seem super dark right now.

00:47:12.500 | So, uh, and that's why I was for Bernie.

00:47:15.300 | So I'll get, I can come back to that.

00:47:16.780 | But why hasn't Trump done it as easy?

00:47:18.980 | He's like, what am I a sucker?

00:47:20.820 | The guy gives me money.

00:47:22.220 | I do what the guy wants.

00:47:23.460 | Why would I get rid of that?

00:47:25.100 | That's how I got into power.

00:47:26.140 | And so that's how I'm doing it.

00:47:27.700 | Now I get, go to Miriam Edelson and say, give me a hundred million dollars and

00:47:31.340 | I'll let Israel annex the West bank.

00:47:32.940 | Right.

00:47:33.340 | So I'll go to the oil companies and give me a billion dollars

00:47:36.420 | and I'll give you tax subsidies.

00:47:37.980 | I'll let you drill.

00:47:38.860 | I'll take away regulation.

00:47:40.100 | Why would I stop that?

00:47:41.020 | You think he likes money more than he likes being popular?

00:47:44.900 | Because, uh, there, there's a big part of him as a populist in the sense that like

00:47:50.820 | he loves being admired by large masses of people.

00:47:53.700 | Yeah.

00:47:54.460 | So, and you're absolutely right, but that is the fault of MAGA.

00:47:58.620 | And so MAGA, you're screwing populists in a way that is infuriating.

00:48:05.140 | Okay.

00:48:05.820 | And smart libertarians like Dave Smith have figured this out.

00:48:08.940 | And that's why he's just as mad at Trump as I am.

00:48:12.700 | And, uh, and it's because he took a populist movement and he redirected

00:48:19.140 | it for his own personal gain, MAGA, figure it out, come on.

00:48:23.340 | Right.

00:48:23.820 | And so if you say, Oh, you think Democrats have figured out that

00:48:26.740 | these policies, no, they largely haven't figured it out either.

00:48:29.020 | And I think there's blue MAGA and I could talk about that as well.

00:48:31.740 | But for those of us on the populist left, yeah, we're

00:48:35.140 | not enamored by politicians.

00:48:36.940 | And for example, when Bernie does the wrong thing, we call him out.

00:48:40.100 | Well, I'm not, Bernie's not my goddamn uncle.

00:48:42.700 | I don't, I don't like him for some personality reason.

00:48:45.260 | It's not a cult of personality.

00:48:46.580 | You do the right thing.

00:48:47.260 | I love you for you do the wrong thing.

00:48:48.620 | I'm gonna kick your ass for it.

00:48:49.820 | Right.

00:48:50.180 | So, but Donald Trump does this massive, ridiculous corruption over and over

00:48:53.980 | again, and MAGA is like, I'm here for it.

00:48:55.580 | Love it.

00:48:56.020 | As long as you're doing the corruption, I'm okay with it.

00:48:58.340 | What does Trump, what does Trump say about getting money out of politics?

00:49:01.460 | Does he, he says nothing about it.

00:49:03.140 | Go ahead, MAGA.

00:49:03.980 | Why haven't you held them to account?

00:49:05.380 | Like, so when Bernie helped Biden take out $15 minimum wage from the Senate

00:49:10.860 | bill on the first bill that was introduced in the Biden administration, we went nuts.

00:49:15.460 | We did a petition.

00:49:16.540 | We sent in videos to Bernie, our audience going, don't kill it, Bernie.

00:49:21.300 | Don't kill it.

00:49:21.940 | And so Bernie then reintroduced it as an amendment.

00:49:25.140 | It got voted down, but he did the right thing, right?

00:49:27.620 | That is us holding our top leader accountable and saying, you

00:49:32.180 | better get back on track.

00:49:33.540 | Okay.

00:49:34.100 | Cause we're not here for you and your personal self and grant aggrandizement.

00:49:38.060 | We're here for policy.

00:49:39.620 | Right.

00:49:40.300 | And if MAGA was actually here for policy, they would absolutely level

00:49:45.060 | Trump on the fact that he, I mean, remember what he ran on, drain the swamp.

00:49:48.540 | That's why he won in 2016.

00:49:49.900 | Right.

00:49:50.220 | I, so I predicted on ABC right after the DNC and Hillary Clinton was up 10, 12

00:49:56.780 | points, whatever she was, and I said, Trump would win.

00:49:59.260 | Okay.

00:49:59.980 | And they, the whole panel laughed out loud, right?

00:50:02.380 | They're like, get a load of this crazy guy.

00:50:04.740 | I said, he's a populist who seems to hate the establishment in a, in a

00:50:09.780 | populist time and so, and drain the swamp is, is a great, uh, slogan.

00:50:16.300 | Uh, and I knew he would win when he was in a Republican debate and he

00:50:20.380 | said, I paid all these guys before I paid them and they did whatever I wanted.

00:50:26.060 | And I was like, that's so true.

00:50:28.100 | Right.

00:50:28.620 | And people will love that.

00:50:30.020 | And especially Republican voters will love that.

00:50:31.780 | I actually have a lot of respect for Republican voters because they

00:50:34.420 | actually genuinely hate corruption.

00:50:36.500 | So what would an amendment look like that, uh, helps prevent money

00:50:42.700 | being an influence in politics?

00:50:44.100 | So I started a group called Wolfpack, um, and thank you, wolf-pack.com.

00:50:50.620 | And, and the reason why I named it Wolfpack is because everyone in

00:50:54.660 | Washington I knew would hate that name.

00:50:56.220 | Um, it's a populist name and everybody in Washington snickers like, no, you're

00:51:01.740 | supposed to name it Americans for America and just trick people, et cetera.

00:51:05.340 | No, no, no.

00:51:05.820 | Wolfpack means we're coming for you.

00:51:07.180 | Okay.

00:51:07.860 | We're not coming for you in a weirdo, physical or violent way.

00:51:10.940 | We're coming for you in a democratic way.

00:51:12.940 | Okay.

00:51:13.580 | So we're going to go to those state, uh, houses.

00:51:17.060 | We're going to get them to propose a convention and we did it in five states,

00:51:19.980 | but then the democratic party started beating us back.

00:51:22.260 | We'll get to that.

00:51:22.940 | And, uh, and so, uh, we are going to overturn your apple cart and we're going

00:51:29.420 | to bring, put the American people back in charge.

00:51:31.300 | So what does the amendment say?

00:51:32.740 | Number one, uh, a lot of people will have, uh, different opinions on what it

00:51:36.980 | should say, and that's what you sort out in a convention.

00:51:39.220 | So for example, one of the things that conservatives can propose, which

00:51:42.140 | makes sense is term limits, because with the reason why these super old

00:51:46.660 | politicians are in charge is because they provide a return on investment.

00:51:50.380 | So, you know, if you give to Biden, Pelosi or McConnell,

00:51:53.820 | they're going to deliver for you.

00:51:55.580 | They love that return on investment.

00:51:57.220 | They don't want to risk it on a new guy.

00:51:59.060 | The new guy might have principles, ew, or, you know, might want to actually

00:52:04.060 | do a little bit for his voters, boo.

00:52:07.180 | Whereas these old, you know, and every corrupt system has these old

00:52:12.740 | guys hanging around that help maintain power, et cetera.

00:52:16.180 | So my particular proposal in the amendments would be a couple of things.

00:52:21.300 | One is end private financing of elections.

00:52:23.900 | So if, and look, if you're a business person, you're a capitalist,

00:52:29.100 | you know, this with absolute certainty.

00:52:31.220 | If somebody signs your check, that's the person you work for, right?

00:52:35.420 | So if private interests are funding politicians, the politicians

00:52:40.780 | will serve private interests.

00:52:42.740 | And then you're going to get into a fight like Elon did in New Jersey,

00:52:46.300 | where the car dealerships and Tesla are getting into an auction.

00:52:50.780 | Like, can I hear a hundred thousand?

00:52:52.820 | No, a million to 2 million, 3 million.

00:52:54.780 | Right.

00:52:55.020 | And then, and now you've got to go bribe the government official.

00:52:57.500 | That's called a campaign contribution.

00:52:59.300 | And this is a terrible system, right?

00:53:02.660 | And the private financing go to complete public financing of elections.

00:53:07.220 | That's when the conservatives, because they've been propagandized

00:53:10.140 | by corporate media, yes.

00:53:11.540 | Mainstream media got into your head too.

00:53:13.340 | And right-wing media got into your head too.

00:53:15.660 | And right-wing media also financed by a lot of this corrupt interest.

00:53:19.260 | And so they tell you, Oh, you don't want to publicly finance.

00:53:21.900 | Oh my God, you'd be spending like a billion dollars on politicians.

00:53:25.980 | Brother, they spending trillions of dollars of your money because

00:53:29.460 | they're financed by the guys that they're giving all of your money to.

00:53:32.060 | So can you educate me?

00:53:33.580 | Does that prevent something like citizen united?

00:53:36.060 | So like super PACs are all gone in this case.

00:53:38.180 | So all indirect funding is also indirect.

00:53:41.820 | Funding's gone.

00:53:42.660 | Direct funding's gone.

00:53:43.820 | You have to set up some thresholds.

00:53:45.940 | Not everybody can just get money to run.

00:53:48.700 | You have to prove that you have some sort of a popular support.

00:53:52.340 | So signature gathering, uh, you would still allow for small money

00:53:56.780 | donations, like up to a hundred dollars, something along those lines.

00:54:00.060 | That's not 5,000 or whatever it is now.

00:54:02.060 | Yeah, I think 5,000 is too high, but those are fine debates.

00:54:04.940 | Yeah.

00:54:05.300 | You know, but you basically want to create an incentive.

00:54:08.020 | Everything is about incentives and disincentives.

00:54:10.100 | Again, capitalists realize this better than anyone else.

00:54:12.660 | Right.

00:54:13.020 | So you want to set up an incentive to serve your voters, not your donors.

00:54:18.380 | So if you take away private donors, well, there goes that incentive.

00:54:21.980 | And that's gigantic, right?

00:54:23.420 | And then if you set up small grassroots funding as a way to get past the

00:54:27.740 | threshold to get the funding to run an election, well then good, because

00:54:32.740 | then you're serving small donors, which are generally voters, right?

00:54:36.380 | So that's what you want.

00:54:38.180 | And ending private financing is critical.

00:54:41.220 | But the second thing is ending corporate personhood.

00:54:44.260 | So this is where you get into a lot of fights because of two reasons.

00:54:49.020 | One is some folks have a principled position against it and they say, well,

00:54:54.180 | I mean the Sierra club is technically a corporation, ACLU is technically a

00:54:59.140 | corporation, and so if you end corporate personhood, then they, you know, that

00:55:05.540 | could endanger their existence, right?

00:55:07.500 | No, it doesn't endanger their existence at all.

00:55:09.980 | Right.

00:55:10.460 | So it doesn't endanger GM or GE's existence.

00:55:13.340 | It doesn't endanger anybody's existence.

00:55:14.860 | Corporations exist.

00:55:16.380 | We're not trying to take them away.

00:55:17.740 | I would never do that.

00:55:18.620 | Right.

00:55:18.860 | That's not smart.

00:55:19.740 | That's not workable, et cetera.

00:55:21.820 | We're just saying they don't have constitutional rights.

00:55:25.620 | So they have the rights that we give them.

00:55:27.820 | And by the way, read the founding fathers is also in my book.

00:55:31.020 | They hated corporations.

00:55:33.740 | The American revolution was partly against the British East India company.

00:55:38.900 | And so the tea party in Boston was against that corporation.

00:55:43.540 | They threw their tea overboard.

00:55:45.500 | It was not against the British monarchy.

00:55:48.540 | And so they, and all the founding fathers warned us over and over

00:55:52.860 | again, watch out for corporations.

00:55:55.580 | Okay.

00:55:56.180 | Cause once they form, they will amass money and power

00:55:59.900 | and look to kill off democracy.

00:56:02.100 | And they were totally right.

00:56:03.740 | That's exactly what happened.

00:56:05.180 | And so it's not that you don't have them.

00:56:07.860 | It's that you, through democratic capitalism, you limit their power.

00:56:11.700 | They definitely, you can give them a bunch of rights.

00:56:14.580 | You say, Hey, you have a right to exist.

00:56:16.180 | You have a right to do this, this, and this.

00:56:17.740 | Okay.

00:56:18.460 | But you do not have constitutional rights of a, of a citizen.

00:56:23.660 | And so you don't have the right to speak to a politician

00:56:27.700 | by giving them a billion dollars.

00:56:29.220 | And you believe that the people will be able to find the right

00:56:33.740 | policies to regulate and tax the corporations such that

00:56:38.220 | capitalism can flourish still.

00:56:39.540 | Yes.

00:56:40.500 | You know why?

00:56:41.180 | Cause I'm a real populist and I believe in the people.

00:56:44.700 | So I drive the establishment crazy because

00:56:48.580 | they don't believe in the people.

00:56:49.740 | They think, Oh, Jacob, have you seen MAGA?

00:56:52.380 | Have you seen these guys?

00:56:53.620 | Have you seen the radicals on the left?

00:56:55.260 | We're so much smarter.

00:56:56.340 | Well, you know how many Ivy league degrees we have.

00:56:58.900 | Right.

00:56:59.700 | And we know what we're doing.

00:57:01.300 | No, you don't know.

00:57:02.420 | You're everybody to some degree looks out

00:57:05.860 | for their own interests, right?

00:57:07.180 | Why I like capitalism and why I love democracy is

00:57:10.900 | because it's the wisdom of the crowd.

00:57:13.060 | And so in the long run, the crowd is right.

00:57:15.340 | Oftentimes in the short term, we're wrong.

00:57:16.940 | Okay.

00:57:17.460 | But the wisdom of the crowd in the long run is much,

00:57:20.220 | much better than the elites that run things.

00:57:23.220 | The elites say, well, we're so smart and educated.

00:57:25.620 | So we're going to know better.

00:57:26.580 | What's good for you?

00:57:27.420 | No brother.

00:57:27.980 | You're going to know what's better for you.

00:57:29.940 | And, and, and so here's something that a lot of

00:57:32.500 | people get wrong on the populist left and right.

00:57:34.460 | They think, Oh, those guys are evil.

00:57:35.940 | They're not evil.

00:57:36.660 | I've met them.

00:57:37.620 | I worked at MSNBC.

00:57:38.740 | I worked on cable.

00:57:39.620 | I went to Wharton, you know, Columbia law.

00:57:42.620 | It's I know a lot of those guys.

00:57:44.060 | And so they're not at all evil.

00:57:45.780 | They don't even know that they're mainly

00:57:48.980 | serving their own interests.

00:57:50.180 | They just naturally do it.

00:57:51.820 | Right.

00:57:52.300 | And so they think the carrot interest

00:57:54.380 | loophole makes a lot of sense, right?

00:57:56.340 | They think corporate tax cuts makes a lot of

00:57:58.580 | sense, you not getting higher wages, you not

00:58:01.300 | having healthcare, it makes a lot of sense.

00:58:03.220 | It doesn't make any goddamn sense, but they

00:58:05.700 | get themselves to believe it.

00:58:06.980 | And that's another part portion of the

00:58:09.020 | invisible hand on the market.

00:58:10.140 | So there's problems with every, every path.

00:58:13.060 | Uh, so the elite, like you mentioned, can be

00:58:15.540 | corrupted by greed, by power and so on, but

00:58:18.540 | the crowd, I agree with you, by the way, about

00:58:21.260 | the wisdom of the crowd versus the wisdom of

00:58:23.380 | the elite, but the crowd can be captured by a

00:58:25.580 | charismatic leader.

00:58:26.540 | So the problem with populism, and I'm probably

00:58:30.140 | a populist myself, the problem with populism

00:58:32.940 | is it, it can be, and has been throughout

00:58:35.580 | history captured by bad people.

00:58:38.620 | But if you say to me, trust the elites

00:58:40.700 | or trust the people, I'm going to trust the

00:58:42.820 | people every single time.

00:58:44.340 | Well, that's why you're such an interesting,

00:58:46.420 | I don't want to say contradiction, but there's

00:58:49.180 | a tension that creates the balance.

00:58:50.900 | So to me, in the way you're speaking, my, uh,

00:58:56.020 | result in hurting capitalism.

00:58:57.980 | So it's, it's easy to infighting

00:59:00.700 | corporatism to, um, to hurt companies.

00:59:04.660 | So to go too far the other way.

00:59:07.260 | Yeah, of course, of course.

00:59:08.580 | And so like when you talked about corporate

00:59:10.340 | tax, so what's, what's the magic, what's

00:59:13.900 | the magic number for the corporate tax?

00:59:15.580 | Cause if it's too high, like companies leave.

00:59:19.180 | Yeah.

00:59:19.820 | Companies have so much power right now.

00:59:23.300 | This pendulum has swung so far and we're guys,

00:59:27.220 | we're almost out of time.

00:59:28.500 | The window's closing.

00:59:29.660 | The minute private equity buys all of our

00:59:31.940 | homes, the residential real estate market,

00:59:34.540 | we're screwed.

00:59:35.900 | We're indentured servants forever.

00:59:37.500 | Okay.

00:59:38.180 | There goes wealth creation for the average

00:59:41.100 | American.

00:59:41.580 | So you're right.

00:59:43.500 | Like this is that it's not a contradiction.

00:59:46.620 | It's a tension that is inevitable to get

00:59:49.620 | to balance.

00:59:50.340 | The reason why people kind of can't figure

00:59:52.860 | me out, they're like, well, you're on the

00:59:54.940 | left, but you're a capitalist, et cetera.

00:59:57.140 | That's not a contradiction.

00:59:59.300 | That's getting to the right balance.

01:00:01.380 | And in order to do that, like if you say,

01:00:04.540 | well, if we change the system, I'm afraid of

01:00:06.940 | change because what if the pendulum swings

01:00:09.940 | too far in the other direction, right?

01:00:12.100 | Well, then you would be opposed to change

01:00:14.660 | at all times.

01:00:15.580 | So if you do that, it actually reminds

01:00:19.260 | me of the Biden fight.

01:00:20.940 | Right.

01:00:21.620 | So I'm like, guys, he has, he has almost

01:00:24.460 | no chance of winning.

01:00:25.340 | He stands for the establishment.

01:00:26.900 | He can't talk, but then the number one

01:00:29.980 | pushback I'd get from Democrats was, yeah,

01:00:33.300 | but what if we change, it's so scary.

01:00:36.020 | We don't know about Kamala Harris.

01:00:37.900 | What if it's not Kamala Harris?

01:00:39.300 | It's so scary.

01:00:40.780 | Don't change.

01:00:41.700 | And I'm like, yeah, but if you say change

01:00:45.180 | might be worse, it also might be better.

01:00:47.940 | And you're at zero.

01:00:49.780 | Anything is better, right?

01:00:51.620 | And right now, in terms of corruption in

01:00:54.140 | America, we're at 98% corruption.

01:00:57.540 | So we've got 2% decency left.

01:01:00.300 | Brother, this is when you want change.

01:01:03.180 | And so, and Lex, if you actually have wisdom

01:01:07.780 | of the crowd, just like in supply and demand

01:01:10.100 | and how it works in economics, it works

01:01:13.740 | the same way in a functioning democracy.

01:01:16.140 | You go too far, you come back in.

01:01:18.540 | So for example, when Reagan came into

01:01:20.020 | office, me and my dad, my family,

01:01:22.700 | we were Republicans.

01:01:23.620 | Why?

01:01:24.500 | At that point, the highest marginal

01:01:26.820 | tax rate was at 70%.

01:01:28.500 | 70% is too high, right?

01:01:31.020 | Now they, then he brought it all the way

01:01:32.780 | down to 28%, that's too low, right?

01:01:35.300 | So, and, and, but, and that's how

01:01:37.260 | the, the system modulates itself.

01:01:39.540 | Already we were headed towards corruption

01:01:41.540 | and because it's the eighties now we're

01:01:42.940 | past 78, magic 78 marker, right?

01:01:46.620 | So, and, and even Carter was way more

01:01:49.580 | conserved economically than people realize

01:01:51.340 | because we're already getting past it by

01:01:53.420 | the time it's in his administration.

01:01:55.260 | But the bottom line is yes, you're going,

01:01:57.900 | whenever you have real wisdom of the

01:01:59.580 | crowd, whether it's in business or in

01:02:01.500 | politics, you're going to have fluctuation.

01:02:03.620 | You're going to have that pendulum

01:02:04.900 | swinging back and forth.

01:02:05.940 | You don't want wild swings,

01:02:07.700 | communism, corporatism, right?

01:02:09.820 | You want to get to, Hey, where, where's

01:02:12.460 | the right balance here between capitalism

01:02:14.380 | and what people think is socialism?

01:02:16.940 | Yeah.

01:02:17.820 | So I guess, uh, I agree with most of the

01:02:22.100 | things you said about the corruption.

01:02:23.620 | Uh, I just wish there would be more

01:02:26.300 | celebration of the fact that capitalism

01:02:29.500 | and some incredible companies in the

01:02:31.500 | history of the 20th century has created

01:02:33.540 | so much wealth, so much innovation that

01:02:35.860 | has increased the quality of life on

01:02:37.460 | average, they've also increased the

01:02:39.220 | wealth and equality and exploitation of

01:02:41.220 | the workers and this kind of stuff.

01:02:42.460 | But you, you want to not forget to

01:02:44.860 | celebrate the awesomeness that companies

01:02:47.780 | have also brought outside the political

01:02:50.340 | sphere, just in creating awesome stuff.

01:02:52.980 | Look, I run a company and so I don't

01:02:56.060 | want companies to go away and, and I

01:02:58.660 | don't want you to hate all companies.

01:03:00.100 | I think young Turks is a wonderful

01:03:02.060 | company, right?

01:03:02.700 | We provide great healthcare.

01:03:03.900 | We take care of our employees.

01:03:05.140 | We care about the community, et cetera.

01:03:07.500 | And we're building a whole nation

01:03:09.140 | online on, on those principles and

01:03:12.500 | the right way to run a company.

01:03:13.820 | Right.

01:03:14.300 | Um, but guys, we're at the

01:03:17.860 | wrong part of the pendulum.

01:03:19.020 | The companies have overwhelming

01:03:21.340 | power and they're crushing us.

01:03:23.340 | We're like, uh, that scene in star

01:03:25.940 | wars where the trash compactor is

01:03:27.460 | closing in on them, the walls are closing

01:03:29.540 | in, we're almost out of time because

01:03:32.900 | they've captured the government almost

01:03:34.340 | entirely, they're only serving

01:03:36.260 | corporate interests.

01:03:37.220 | We've got to get back into

01:03:38.780 | balance before it's too late.

01:03:40.180 | And that's why I care so much

01:03:42.500 | about structural issues.

01:03:44.020 | So I formed justice Democrats.

01:03:47.660 | So that's AOC, et cetera, right?

01:03:50.460 | That's people know it as the squad.

01:03:51.900 | They know it as just Democrats, et cetera.

01:03:53.460 | I'm one of the co-founders of that.

01:03:55.540 | And my number one rule was

01:03:57.580 | no corporate PAC money.

01:03:59.740 | Okay.

01:04:00.820 | So you're not allowed to take corporate

01:04:02.340 | PAC money, by the way, now Matt

01:04:03.780 | Gates and Josh Hawley have stopped

01:04:05.820 | taking corporate PAC money and they've

01:04:07.620 | become to some degree on economic

01:04:09.580 | issues, genuine populists.

01:04:11.820 | It's amazing.

01:04:12.980 | It happens overnight.

01:04:14.180 | All of a sudden they're holding,

01:04:15.580 | they're talking about holding

01:04:16.420 | corporations accountable, et cetera.

01:04:18.620 | Now just Democrats wind up

01:04:20.180 | having other problems.

01:04:21.140 | They got too deep into social

01:04:22.980 | issues, not economic issues.

01:04:24.860 | There's a general sort of criticism

01:04:27.420 | of billionaires, right?

01:04:28.740 | This idea.

01:04:29.660 | Now you could say that billionaires

01:04:32.540 | are avoiding taxes and they're not

01:04:34.300 | getting taxed enough, but I think

01:04:35.980 | under that flag of criticizing

01:04:37.780 | billionaires is criticizing all.

01:04:39.900 | Uh, companies that do epic

01:04:43.660 | shit that build stuff.

01:04:45.580 | Oh, okay.

01:04:46.140 | So create stuff that that's,

01:04:47.700 | that's what I'm worried about.

01:04:48.900 | I don't hear enough like genuine.

01:04:52.140 | You know, I like celebrating people.

01:04:54.100 | I like celebrating ideas.

01:04:55.260 | I just don't hear enough genuine

01:04:57.140 | celebration of companies when they do.

01:05:00.380 | No, because, okay.

01:05:01.860 | So are you right?

01:05:03.300 | Not about companies, but about capitalism.

01:05:05.900 | Yes.

01:05:06.460 | Because you know, you look at life

01:05:09.020 | expectancy 200 years ago and you look

01:05:11.260 | at it now and you go, wow, holy shit.

01:05:14.660 | We did amazing things.

01:05:16.260 | Right.

01:05:16.740 | So, and what happened in the last 200 years?

01:05:19.660 | We went from dictatorships more

01:05:22.380 | towards democracy, wisdom of the crowd.

01:05:24.220 | We went from, you know, serfs and

01:05:27.260 | indentured servants and a nobility that

01:05:29.540 | holds the land to more towards capitalism.

01:05:33.140 | And boom, the crowd is right.

01:05:35.180 | Things go really well.

01:05:37.020 | The advances in medicine are amazing

01:05:39.500 | and medicine is a great example.

01:05:41.020 | So, and on our show, I point all those

01:05:44.260 | things out and I say, look, we hate the

01:05:46.740 | drug companies because of how they

01:05:47.940 | capture the government.

01:05:48.820 | Right.

01:05:49.220 | But we don't hate the drug companies

01:05:51.060 | for creating great drugs.

01:05:52.540 | That those drugs save lives.

01:05:53.900 | They saved my life.

01:05:54.860 | They saved countless millions

01:05:56.540 | upon millions of lives.

01:05:57.540 | So the right idea isn't shut down drug

01:06:00.140 | companies, the right idea is don't let

01:06:02.700 | them buy the government.

01:06:03.940 | Right.

01:06:04.500 | So, and, and I know we get back

01:06:07.420 | into our instinctual shells.

01:06:09.100 | So on the left, there'll be, oh, we should

01:06:11.260 | get rid of all billionaires.

01:06:12.460 | Why?

01:06:14.100 | Like, how does that fix the system?

01:06:16.220 | Tell me how it fixes the system.

01:06:18.140 | And I'm all ears, right?

01:06:20.140 | My solution is end private financing.

01:06:22.300 | Then you can be a billionaire all you

01:06:23.340 | like, you can't buy the government.

01:06:24.980 | Right.

01:06:25.420 | That's a more logical way to go about it.

01:06:27.940 | I've never worn an eat the rich shirt

01:06:31.020 | and it drives me crazy.

01:06:32.700 | I'm like, you would have eaten FDR, right?

01:06:36.020 | And FDR is the best president, most

01:06:37.820 | populous president, in my opinion.

01:06:39.500 | And so, no, there's wonderful rich people.

01:06:42.260 | Of course, of course, there's

01:06:43.940 | a range of humanity, right?

01:06:45.580 | But you don't want to get rid of the rich.

01:06:47.700 | You don't want to get rid of companies,

01:06:48.700 | but you also don't want to let

01:06:50.220 | them control everything.

01:06:51.100 | So, okay, I'll give you an example that's

01:06:52.780 | really, and that informs a lot of how I think

01:06:55.220 | about things, which is my dad.

01:06:56.940 | So my dad was a farmer in Southeastern

01:06:59.900 | Turkey, near the Syrian border.

01:07:01.820 | No money, in fact, his dad died when he was

01:07:04.940 | six months old and he, and so they were

01:07:07.420 | saddled with debt and no electricity in his

01:07:11.260 | house, like as poor as poor gets.

01:07:13.820 | And he wound up living the American dream.

01:07:17.060 | And so how did he do that?

01:07:19.820 | What, what made the difference?

01:07:21.500 | Uh, well, what made the difference

01:07:23.300 | is opportunity, right?

01:07:25.620 | So I'm a populist because my dad

01:07:29.580 | was in the masses, right?

01:07:32.820 | And, and the elites say the masses are no good.

01:07:36.300 | We're smart.

01:07:37.140 | You're not, we're educated.

01:07:38.460 | You're not.

01:07:39.020 | Uh, we, at Meritocracy, we talk about that.

01:07:42.300 | We have earned merit.

01:07:44.420 | And if you're poor or middle-class, you

01:07:46.300 | have not earned merit.

01:07:47.660 | Okay.

01:07:48.060 | You're useless and worthless.

01:07:49.540 | And I hate that.

01:07:51.380 | So what did, uh, Turkey do back in the

01:07:54.220 | 1960s that liberated my dad?

01:07:56.180 | They provided free college education.

01:07:58.460 | You had to test into it.

01:07:59.540 | Okay.

01:08:00.180 | But the top 15% got a free college

01:08:03.660 | education at the best colleges in Turkey.

01:08:06.340 | So, and my uncle saved all of our lives

01:08:09.500 | when he came to my dad and said, do you

01:08:12.180 | like working on this farm?

01:08:13.260 | And my dad was like, fuck no.

01:08:14.540 | Right.

01:08:15.380 | It's super hot.

01:08:16.340 | It's super hard.

01:08:17.260 | It's just, they got to get up at four in the

01:08:18.660 | morning, if they're lucky, the family next

01:08:21.780 | door gives them a mule.

01:08:23.260 | If they're not, they got to carry

01:08:24.700 | the shit themselves.

01:08:25.620 | Okay.

01:08:26.140 | He's, so my uncle told him work just as hard

01:08:29.420 | in school and you'll be able to get a house,

01:08:32.220 | a car, pretty girls, et cetera.

01:08:34.340 | So my dad works his ass off, gets into the

01:08:36.380 | school and he comes out a mechanical engineer

01:08:38.740 | and starts his own company.

01:08:40.260 | He creates a company in Turkey,

01:08:42.140 | hires hundreds of people.

01:08:43.900 | He then moves to America, creates a company

01:08:46.420 | here, hires tons of people.

01:08:47.900 | Right.

01:08:48.340 | So do I hate companies?

01:08:50.140 | No, my dad set up two companies and, and I

01:08:52.580 | saw how much it benefited people.

01:08:54.420 | I saw how much employees would come up

01:08:57.100 | to my dad 20, 30 years later in the street

01:08:59.380 | and hug him.

01:08:59.900 | And they tell me as a young kid, your dad's

01:09:02.420 | the most fair boss we ever had.

01:09:04.140 | And we love him for it.

01:09:05.100 | Right.

01:09:05.500 | That's how you run a company.

01:09:06.900 | And he taught me the value of hard work.

01:09:09.300 | But the reason I brought up here is

01:09:11.460 | because he taught me, look, like skill and

01:09:15.300 | ability is a genetic lottery, so you're not

01:09:19.340 | going to just get the rich to win all the

01:09:22.100 | genetic lottery.

01:09:22.900 | No, there's going to be tons of poor kids

01:09:24.860 | and middle-class kids who are just as good,

01:09:27.580 | if not better.

01:09:28.220 | You have to provide them the opportunity,

01:09:30.340 | the fair chance to succeed.

01:09:32.340 | You have to believe in them.

01:09:34.420 | So this isn't about disempowering anyone.

01:09:38.620 | It's about empowering all of those kids who

01:09:41.580 | are doing the right thing or smart and want

01:09:43.660 | to work hard so they can build their own

01:09:45.420 | companies and add to the economy.

01:09:46.860 | What in general is your view on meritocracy?

01:09:49.820 | So I love meritocracy.

01:09:53.060 | I wish that we lived in a meritocracy and

01:09:55.620 | I want to drive towards living in a

01:09:57.260 | meritocracy, so that's why I don't like

01:09:59.300 | equality of results.

01:10:00.460 | So, okay, now people that are on the left

01:10:03.260 | will get super mad at that and go, what

01:10:04.700 | do you mean?

01:10:05.220 | Well, okay, brother, let's say you're at

01:10:07.100 | work and you got one guy who's working his

01:10:10.020 | ass off, another guy that's going, I don't

01:10:12.500 | care, I'm not going to do it, right?

01:10:13.900 | Well, the guy who works super hard has

01:10:16.020 | to pick up the slack.

01:10:16.980 | Now he's working twice as hard, right?

01:10:19.020 | And now you want the same results.

01:10:20.780 | You want the same salary as that guy?

01:10:22.340 | No, brother.

01:10:23.540 | No, he's working twice, four times,

01:10:26.300 | 10 times harder than you.

01:10:27.340 | That's not fair.

01:10:28.900 | Fairness matters.

01:10:30.220 | I lived, we wound up, I mean, this is,

01:10:32.460 | we're in the suburbs of Jersey, but we wound

01:10:34.300 | up in Freehold eventually and we lived

01:10:36.380 | across a farm, which is kind of, in central

01:10:39.300 | Jersey it happens, right?

01:10:40.460 | And it was called Fair Chance Farm.

01:10:43.300 | I was like, how did I, this is amazing, right?

01:10:46.620 | And I love that.

01:10:47.940 | That's the essence of America and that's

01:10:50.540 | what I want to go back to.

01:10:51.700 | So we've got to create that opportunity

01:10:55.780 | of, not just because it's the moral thing

01:10:59.100 | to do, but because it's also the economically

01:11:01.660 | smart thing to do.

01:11:02.820 | If you enable all those great people that

01:11:06.020 | are in lower income classes and middle

01:11:09.580 | income classes, you're going to get a much

01:11:11.860 | better economy, a much stronger democracy.

01:11:15.260 | So that's the direction we go.

01:11:16.460 | So again, it's about balance, but what do

01:11:20.060 | you think about DEI policies, say in academia

01:11:25.300 | and companies, so the movement as it has

01:11:29.460 | evolved, where's that on the balance?

01:11:33.100 | Is that, how far is it pushing towards

01:11:38.140 | equality of outcome versus equality of opportunity?

01:11:40.660 | Okay.

01:11:40.940 | So now we're getting into social issues, right?

01:11:42.860 | So this is where we all rip each other apart.

01:11:46.060 | And then the people at the top laugh their

01:11:48.020 | ass off at us and go, we got to fighting

01:11:50.460 | over trans issues.

01:11:51.620 | They're killing each other.

01:11:54.620 | It's hilarious.

01:11:55.620 | And they're so busy.

01:11:56.500 | They don't realize we're running the place.

01:11:58.220 | Right.

01:11:58.780 | Okay.

01:11:59.460 | But let's engage.

01:12:00.500 | Some people will look at DEI and go, well,

01:12:03.260 | that just gives me an opportunity just

01:12:06.020 | like anyone else.

01:12:06.900 | I love DEI.

01:12:07.660 | And other person will look at it and go,

01:12:09.420 | no, that gives, that says that you should

01:12:12.140 | be picked above me and I hate DEI.

01:12:15.060 | Right.

01:12:15.620 | So the reality of DEI is a little bit more

01:12:17.900 | complicated and so, but you got to go back.

01:12:20.900 | So first, did we need affirmative

01:12:23.020 | action in the 1960s?

01:12:24.420 | Definitely.

01:12:25.300 | Why?

01:12:26.500 | All the firefighter jobs in South Carolina,

01:12:28.940 | as an example, are going to white guys.

01:12:31.500 | All the longshoremen jobs in New York,

01:12:34.420 | LA, wherever you have it, are all going

01:12:36.740 | to white guys.

01:12:37.300 | Cause that's how the system was.

01:12:38.460 | Yes.

01:12:38.740 | Also in the North.

01:12:39.540 | Right.

01:12:39.940 | So we now are in a civil rights era.

01:12:43.140 | We decide we're going to go towards

01:12:44.660 | equality, minorities in that case, mainly

01:12:48.060 | black Americans had to find a way to break in.

01:12:50.620 | I'm not trying to, like, if you're a longshoreman

01:12:53.100 | and it's a good job, you naturally want

01:12:55.100 | to pass it on to your son.

01:12:56.180 | I get your instinct.

01:12:57.260 | I don't hate you for it.

01:12:58.340 | Right.

01:12:59.180 | But we got to let black kids also

01:13:00.660 | have a shot at it.

01:13:01.340 | Right.

01:13:01.820 | So you need it in the beginning, but at a

01:13:04.060 | certain point you have to phase it out.

01:13:06.220 | So when I was growing up, it's now in the

01:13:08.620 | late eighties, early nineties, I hated

01:13:10.900 | affirmative action and I have been principled

01:13:13.260 | on it from day one.

01:13:14.460 | And to this day, I don't, I'm not in favor

01:13:17.820 | of affirmative action.

01:13:18.660 | I say it on the show all the time.

01:13:20.100 | Why?

01:13:20.580 | I'm a minority.

01:13:22.580 | Being a Turk, I grew up Muslim.

01:13:24.820 | I'm an atheist now, but, but generally

01:13:28.420 | speaking, a Muslim is certainly a minority

01:13:31.020 | in America and pretty much a hated one overall.

01:13:34.060 | Uh, so, but I didn't check off Muslim or

01:13:37.540 | Turkish or any ethnicity when I applied to

01:13:39.420 | college because I believe in a meritocracy

01:13:42.420 | as we were talking about, but we don't

01:13:44.420 | really have a meritocracy now.

01:13:45.900 | And so, but so I can come back to that,

01:13:49.020 | but, but right now, but so I didn't check

01:13:52.220 | it off because I didn't want an unfair

01:13:53.420 | advantage, uh, because I want to earn it.

01:13:56.660 | I want to earn it.

01:13:57.900 | So now I'm in law school and I'm hanging

01:14:00.860 | out with right-wingers because at that

01:14:02.380 | point I'm a Republican.

01:14:03.500 | And one of the guys says to me about one

01:14:06.980 | of our, a black student, uh, going to Columbia.

01:14:10.180 | He says, oh, I wonder how he got in here.

01:14:12.220 | God, that is the problem with affirmative action.

01:14:15.940 | It devalues the accomplishments of

01:14:18.700 | every minority in the country.

01:14:20.220 | You have to transition away from it.

01:14:22.500 | If you don't, it sets up a caste system.

01:14:25.620 | And that caste system is lethal to democracy.

01:14:29.540 | So does DEI go too far in some instances?

01:14:33.660 | Yes.

01:14:34.220 | But is it a boogeyman that's going to

01:14:36.700 | take all the white jobs and make them

01:14:38.820 | black, as Trump would say black jobs, right.

01:14:41.660 | And give minorities too much power, et cetera.

01:14:44.060 | No, the idea isn't to rob you and to

01:14:46.940 | give all the opportunity to minorities.

01:14:48.820 | The idea is to make it equal.

01:14:50.100 | But as the pendulum swings, did it swing

01:14:52.620 | too far in some directions?

01:14:53.980 | Yes.

01:14:54.900 | So the left can't acknowledge that.

01:14:56.420 | And the right thinks can't acknowledge that.

01:14:58.340 | Of course, at some point you got to give

01:15:00.020 | a chance for others to break in.

01:15:02.020 | So they have a fair chance.

01:15:03.460 | By the way, Michelle Obama had a good

01:15:04.980 | line about the black jobs and the, uh,

01:15:07.060 | the DNC speech where, uh, somebody should

01:15:10.260 | tell Trump that the presidency might

01:15:12.780 | be just one of those black jobs anyway.

01:15:15.660 | Uh, but why do you think the left doesn't

01:15:17.500 | acknowledge when DI gets ridiculous, which

01:15:20.460 | it, uh, in certain places and in certain

01:15:24.300 | places at a large scale has, has gotten

01:15:26.540 | ridiculous because, uh, people are taught,

01:15:30.620 | uh, to just be in the tribe they're in

01:15:33.420 | and to believe it a hundred percent.

01:15:34.860 | Like I've gotten kicked out of every tribe.

01:15:37.260 | I'm the, I might be the most attack man

01:15:39.420 | in internet history, partly because we've

01:15:42.220 | been around forever.

01:15:43.180 | And partly because I disagree with every

01:15:45.420 | part of the political spectrum, because I

01:15:47.500 | believe in independent thought.

01:15:48.740 | And the minute you vary a little bit,

01:15:50.580 | people go nuts.

01:15:52.780 | And so the, the far left tribe, uh, is

01:15:57.380 | going to go with their preset ideology,

01:16:00.660 | just like the far right tribe is.

01:16:02.460 | So for example, on trans issues, we've

01:16:05.420 | protected trans people for over 20 years

01:16:08.340 | in the young Turks, we fought for equality

01:16:10.700 | for trans people and for all LGBTQ people

01:16:13.740 | for two decades, we did it way before

01:16:16.700 | anyone else did when Biden came out in

01:16:20.180 | favor of gay marriage in 2013, we're like,

01:16:22.220 | this is comically late.

01:16:23.700 | So like, we're all supposed to like

01:16:25.500 | congratulate him in the year 2013 that

01:16:27.660 | he thinks gay people should have the same

01:16:29.460 | rights as straight people.

01:16:30.540 | And then he had to push Obama to get there.

01:16:33.140 | Right.

01:16:33.540 | So on the other hand, I'm like, guys,

01:16:38.140 | if you allow trans women to go into

01:16:41.780 | professional sports, not at the high school

01:16:43.620 | level, but professional sports, but let's

01:16:45.580 | say they go into MMA or boxing and a trans

01:16:48.780 | woman, I mean, it happens in boxing.

01:16:51.260 | It happens in MMA, punches a biological

01:16:55.060 | woman so hard that he, that she kills her.

01:16:57.100 | Right.

01:16:57.820 | So you're going to set back trans rights,

01:17:01.100 | 50 years, I'm not trying to hurt you.

01:17:04.380 | I'm trying to help you.

01:17:05.540 | You have to do bounds of reason.

01:17:07.300 | So when I say simple things like that,

01:17:09.300 | and I say, you give LeBron James, every

01:17:11.860 | hormone blocker on planet earth, he's still

01:17:14.660 | going to dominate the WNBA.

01:17:16.740 | Okay.

01:17:17.500 | It would be comical.

01:17:18.860 | He might score a hundred points a night.

01:17:20.780 | Okay.

01:17:21.260 | And they'll say, oh, that's outrageous.

01:17:24.380 | And they've, some have called me Nazi for

01:17:27.020 | saying that trans women or that professional

01:17:30.180 | leagues should make their own decisions on

01:17:31.980 | whether they allow trans women are in or not.

01:17:34.220 | So why do they say that?

01:17:36.220 | Cause they're so besieged.

01:17:38.140 | They think we cannot give an inch.

01:17:40.180 | We cannot give any ground.

01:17:41.940 | If you give any ground, you're a Nazi.

01:17:43.540 | Okay.

01:17:44.540 | So we've got to get out of that mindset.

01:17:46.860 | You're not, you can't function in a

01:17:49.060 | democracy and be in an extreme position and

01:17:52.780 | expect the rest of the country to go towards

01:17:55.580 | your extreme position.

01:17:56.700 | So why do you think we are not in a meritocracy?

01:17:59.580 | So because of the corruption, it's, so for

01:18:03.340 | example, but there's also, but remember,

01:18:06.180 | corporate media is the matrix and they plug

01:18:10.620 | you into cable, right, in the old days.

01:18:12.900 | Now it's a little bit different because of

01:18:14.180 | online media, but especially 10 years ago.

01:18:17.180 | And remember we started 22 years ago, so I've

01:18:19.820 | been losing my mind over how obvious corporate

01:18:22.460 | media corruption has been for decades now.

01:18:24.860 | Right.

01:18:25.420 | But no one acknowledged it until

01:18:26.900 | online media got stronger.

01:18:28.340 | But one of the myths that corporate media

01:18:31.180 | creates is the myth of meritocracy.

01:18:33.100 | Not that meritocracy can't exist or shouldn't

01:18:36.460 | exist, but they pretend it exists today.

01:18:39.220 | So the problem with that myth Lex is that it

01:18:43.740 | gets people thinking, well, if they're already

01:18:45.540 | rich, they must have merited it by definition.

01:18:49.100 | So all the rich have merit and the reverse

01:18:53.820 | of that, if you're poor or middle-class, well,

01:18:56.300 | you must not have merited wealth.

01:18:58.660 | So you're no good.

01:19:00.540 | We don't have to listen to you.

01:19:01.980 | And that's a really dangerous, awful idea.

01:19:05.460 | And so if we get to a meritocracy one day,

01:19:10.020 | I will, I'll be the happiest person in America.

01:19:12.180 | But right now it's, look here, I'll give

01:19:15.140 | you an example that I put in the book.

01:19:17.180 | And they, and it's not us, this other folks

01:19:21.740 | that this YouTube video, I can't even quite

01:19:23.460 | find who they were, but it was a brilliant

01:19:24.780 | video and they said, okay, we're going to do

01:19:27.060 | a hundred yard race, but hold on before we

01:19:29.100 | start, anyone who has two parents take two

01:19:31.540 | steps forward.

01:19:32.220 | Anyone who has went to college, take another

01:19:34.660 | two steps forward.

01:19:35.420 | Anyone who doesn't have bills to pay for

01:19:38.340 | education anymore, take two steps forward.

01:19:40.140 | They do all these things, right?

01:19:41.500 | And then at the end, before they start,

01:19:44.140 | somebody's 20 yards from the finish line.

01:19:45.980 | And a lot of people are still at the starting

01:19:48.820 | line and then they go, okay, now we're going

01:19:50.540 | to run a race.

01:19:51.260 | The guy who's right next to the finish line

01:19:53.460 | wins and they go meritocracy.

01:19:56.020 | So the challenge there is to know which

01:20:00.260 | disparities, when you just freeze the system

01:20:02.180 | and observe are actually a result of some

01:20:04.500 | kind of discrimination or flaw in the system

01:20:06.540 | versus the result of a meritocracy of the

01:20:09.340 | better, of the better runner being ahead.

01:20:11.860 | That's right.

01:20:13.020 | There are some parts that are easy to solve

01:20:15.260 | like, so, you know, if you donated to a

01:20:20.180 | politician and he gave you a billion dollar

01:20:22.500 | subsidy, that's not meritocracy, right?

01:20:24.700 | So if you follow the money, you can see the

01:20:26.580 | flaws in the system.

01:20:27.460 | Exactly.

01:20:28.060 | And so, and again, nothing's ever perfect

01:20:30.740 | at any snapshot of history, right?

01:20:32.940 | Or of the moment you're going to be at some

01:20:35.860 | point in the pendulum swing, but if you let,

01:20:38.380 | if you trust the people and you let the

01:20:40.860 | pendulum swing, but not wildly, then you're

01:20:43.780 | going to get to the right answers in the long run.

01:20:45.380 | So you think, uh, this woke mind virus that

01:20:49.100 | the right refers to is, is, is a problem,

01:20:53.020 | but not a big problem.

01:20:53.900 | No, so the right wing drives me crazy.

01:20:58.420 | So look guys, your instincts of populism

01:21:03.500 | is correct.

01:21:04.180 | Your instincts of anti-corruption is correct.

01:21:06.860 | Right.

01:21:07.420 | And I love you for it.

01:21:09.300 | And so, and in a lot of ways, the right wing

01:21:11.660 | voters figured out the whole system screwed

01:21:14.500 | before left wing voters did.

01:21:16.180 | I shouldn't say left wing voters because

01:21:17.740 | progressives in the left wing have been

01:21:18.860 | saying it for not only decades, but maybe

01:21:21.380 | centuries, right?

01:21:22.300 | But democratic voters, a lot of democratic

01:21:25.020 | voters, some of them actually like this

01:21:27.460 | current system.

01:21:28.300 | Some of them, a lot of them have been tricked

01:21:30.380 | into liking this current system.

01:21:31.740 | And the left should be fighting against

01:21:34.140 | corruption harder than the right, but right

01:21:35.980 | now, unfortunately, that's not the case.

01:21:38.140 | So there's a lot that I like about right

01:21:39.780 | wing voters.

01:21:40.380 | Okay.

01:21:40.860 | But you guys get tricked on social

01:21:42.820 | issues so easily, right?

01:21:46.100 | So how many people are involved in trans

01:21:50.780 | high school sports and a girl who should

01:21:54.660 | have finished first in that track thing, you

01:21:57.380 | know, race in the middle of Indiana finished

01:21:59.340 | second, first of all, this is the big crime.

01:22:01.220 | This is, and how many people are involved?

01:22:03.060 | About seven, 13 out of a country of 330

01:22:06.620 | million people, and you can't see that

01:22:08.660 | that's a distraction, right?

01:22:10.500 | So, and everything that is like bait that

01:22:17.140 | the right wing media puts out there, they

01:22:19.020 | run after, I mean, Tucker Carlson doing

01:22:21.340 | insane segments about M and M's should be

01:22:23.860 | sexier, Mr.

01:22:26.180 | Potato Head has gender issues.

01:22:28.140 | Guys, get out of there.

01:22:29.620 | Get out of there.

01:22:30.180 | It's a trap.

01:22:30.940 | Okay.

01:22:31.660 | Yeah.

01:22:32.060 | That doesn't mean that there, absolutely.

01:22:34.580 | Uh, it doesn't mean that there's larger

01:22:36.300 | scale issues with things like DEI that

01:22:39.940 | aren't so fun to talk about or a viral

01:22:43.220 | to talk about an anecdotal scale.

01:22:45.260 | There is a DI does create a culture of

01:22:48.300 | fear with, with cancer culture.

01:22:50.340 | And it does create a kind of culture that

01:22:53.580 | limits the freedom of expression and it

01:22:57.980 | does limit the meritocracy in another way.

01:23:00.380 | So you're, you're basically saying forget

01:23:03.580 | all these other problems, money is the

01:23:06.580 | biggest problem.

01:23:07.500 | So first of all, on AOC, as an example,

01:23:10.660 | and I don't mean to pick on her, but she

01:23:13.620 | won through the great work of her and

01:23:16.940 | Shoykat Chakrabarty and Corbyn Trent and

01:23:19.620 | others who are leaders of the justice

01:23:21.700 | Democrats that went and helped her campaign.

01:23:23.620 | They were critical help and we all told

01:23:27.260 | her the same thing.

01:23:27.860 | So it's not about me, me, me.

01:23:29.020 | And so we all said, you've got to

01:23:32.260 | challenge the establishment and you got

01:23:34.500 | to work on money in politics first.

01:23:36.420 | Cause if you don't work on money in

01:23:38.060 | politics and you don't fix that, you're

01:23:39.700 | going to lose on almost all other issues.

01:23:42.100 | But she didn't believe us because

01:23:44.500 | it's uncomfortable.

01:23:45.380 | And all the progressives that went into

01:23:47.620 | Congress, they drive me crazy.

01:23:49.660 | They think, oh no, no, you're exaggerating.

01:23:52.220 | No, these are, and the minute they get

01:23:54.220 | in, all of a sudden my colleagues, right.

01:23:56.300 | Your colleagues hate you and they're

01:23:58.100 | going to drive you out.

01:23:59.500 | You're a sucker and, and Jamal Bowman,

01:24:02.780 | Cori Bush, what'd they do?

01:24:03.980 | They drove them out.

01:24:05.100 | Marie Newman drove them out.

01:24:06.820 | Right.

01:24:07.300 | And because they are not on your side,

01:24:09.620 | they're not your colleagues.

01:24:10.860 | And what happened to $15 minimum wage?

01:24:12.540 | And I remember talking to one of those

01:24:13.900 | Congress people, I won't leave out the

01:24:15.740 | name and saying, hey, you know, they're

01:24:18.620 | not going to do $15 minimum wage.

01:24:20.300 | And he's like, oh, Cenk, you're out of the loop.

01:24:22.620 | Nancy Pelosi assured us that they are

01:24:25.100 | going to do $15 minimum wage.

01:24:26.380 | I'm like, I love you, but you're

01:24:28.980 | totally wrong, moneyed interests are

01:24:31.220 | not going to do $15 minimum wage.

01:24:33.180 | You have to start fighting now.

01:24:35.100 | Right.

01:24:35.740 | And they didn't get it.

01:24:37.420 | So they lost on almost all those issues

01:24:39.820 | because it's all about incentives and

01:24:41.580 | disincentives and rules.

01:24:43.020 | If you don't fix the rules, you're going

01:24:45.180 | to constantly run into the same brick wall.

01:24:47.140 | Now, the second issue that we were

01:24:48.620 | talking about is in the culture wars,

01:24:50.260 | the rest of us are stuck between the two

01:24:53.100 | extreme two percenters, right, on both sides.

01:24:57.340 | So the two percenter on the left goes,

01:25:00.780 | you know, if you're a white woman, you

01:25:02.540 | need to shut up and listen now.

01:25:04.300 | Okay.

01:25:04.940 | That's ridiculous.

01:25:07.020 | No, you don't.

01:25:07.780 | If you're a white woman, you have every

01:25:09.420 | right to speak out, you have every right

01:25:11.020 | that every other human being has.

01:25:12.500 | And so would I love for all of us to listen

01:25:16.260 | to one another, to have empathy for one

01:25:18.460 | another and go, hey, I wonder how a right

01:25:20.020 | winger thinks about this.

01:25:20.820 | I wonder how a left winger thinks about this.

01:25:22.500 | I wonder why they think that way.

01:25:24.300 | Right.

01:25:24.660 | I love that.

01:25:25.460 | And I want that.

01:25:26.660 | So I want you to listen, but I

01:25:28.820 | don't want you to shut up.

01:25:29.940 | So that 2% gets extreme.

01:25:32.820 | And I, and I don't like it, but on the right

01:25:36.060 | wing, you got your 2% who think that that's

01:25:38.660 | all that's happening on the left.

01:25:40.220 | And that's all that's happening in American

01:25:41.940 | politics.

01:25:42.580 | And they think the entire left believes

01:25:44.820 | that tiny 2%, right.

01:25:46.580 | And so they hate the left and they're

01:25:48.580 | like, oh, I'm not going to shut up.

01:25:50.260 | I'm not going to wear a mask.

01:25:51.700 | I'm not going to do any of these things

01:25:53.220 | and I'm not going to do any, that's a freedom.

01:25:56.180 | And, and then a Republican comes along and

01:25:58.420 | goes, oh yeah, that thing you call freedom,

01:26:00.300 | that's deregulation for corporations because

01:26:03.260 | you shouldn't really have freedom.

01:26:04.860 | Companies should have freedom.

01:26:06.060 | Right.

01:26:06.460 | And then the guy goes, yeah, freedom for

01:26:08.540 | ExxonMobil.

01:26:09.660 | No brother, they tricked you.

01:26:11.940 | Yeah.

01:26:12.620 | The, the 2% on each side is then a useful

01:26:14.580 | distraction for, yes, for the corruption of

01:26:17.260 | the politicians via money.

01:26:18.700 | Still we're, I'm talking about the 96% that

01:26:21.340 | remains in the middle and the impact that

01:26:23.460 | DEI policies has on them.

01:26:25.300 | Yeah.

01:26:25.820 | So here, here's where it gets absurd.

01:26:27.220 | I'll give you a good example of absurdity.

01:26:28.780 | So, um, in, in a school, I believe in

01:26:33.660 | California, uh, they, uh, noticed that Latino

01:26:37.540 | students were not doing as well in AP and

01:26:40.140 | honors classes, so they canceled AP and

01:26:43.100 | honors classes.

01:26:43.820 | Oh, come on.

01:26:44.700 | What are you doing?

01:26:45.380 | You're, that's nuts.

01:26:46.660 | No, your job is to help them get better

01:26:50.300 | grades, get better opportunity, et cetera.

01:26:52.740 | That's the harder thing to do and the right

01:26:55.100 | thing to do that your job isn't, I'm going

01:26:58.460 | to make everything equal by taking away the

01:27:00.540 | opportunity for higher achievement for other

01:27:04.020 | students, if that's what you're doing and you

01:27:06.100 | think you're on the left, you're not really

01:27:07.660 | on the left.

01:27:08.220 | I actually think that's like an authoritarian

01:27:10.060 | position that a no progressive in their

01:27:12.820 | right mind would be in favor of.

01:27:14.220 | So, but it's all definitional.

01:27:16.420 | So here's another example of

01:27:17.900 | definitional communism.

01:27:19.100 | Like they say, oh my God, Kamala

01:27:20.700 | Harris is a communist.

01:27:21.700 | Well, when you're telling on yourself,

01:27:26.180 | brothers and sisters, when you say that, that

01:27:28.860 | means, A, I don't know what communism means.

01:27:31.340 | And B, I don't have any idea what's going

01:27:33.780 | on in American politics.

01:27:34.980 | Kamala Harris is a corporatist.

01:27:38.060 | That's her problem.

01:27:39.300 | Not that she's a communist.

01:27:40.620 | She's on the other end of the spectrum, right?

01:27:43.660 | The, the idea that Kamala Harris would come

01:27:46.340 | into office and say, that's it, there's no

01:27:48.740 | more private property.

01:27:49.580 | We're going to take all of your homes and

01:27:51.060 | it's now government property.

01:27:52.220 | They're all your cars, et cetera.

01:27:53.460 | She was not going to get within

01:27:55.820 | a billion miles of that.

01:27:57.100 | Her donors would never allow her to get

01:27:59.300 | within a billion miles of that.

01:28:00.540 | That is so preposterous that when you say

01:28:03.020 | something like that, it's disqualifying.

01:28:04.900 | Like I can't debate someone who thinks

01:28:07.580 | that Democrats are communists when they're

01:28:09.700 | actually largely corporatists.

01:28:11.140 | You see what I'm saying?

01:28:12.740 | Yeah.

01:28:13.020 | So let's go there.

01:28:14.340 | So when people call her a communist, they're

01:28:17.020 | usually referring to certain kinds of policies.

01:28:19.460 | So do you think I mean, I think it's a, it's

01:28:23.340 | a ridiculous label to assign to Kamala Harris,

01:28:25.620 | especially given the history of communism

01:28:28.300 | in the 20th century and what those economic

01:28:30.980 | and political policies have led to the scale

01:28:34.820 | of suffering that led to, and it just degrades

01:28:37.580 | the meaning of the word, right?

01:28:38.900 | But to take that seriously,

01:28:40.980 | why is she not a communist?

01:28:42.340 | So you said she's not a communist

01:28:45.340 | because she's a corporatist.

01:28:47.100 | Okay.

01:28:47.420 | But that can't be, okay.

01:28:51.420 | Everybody in politics is a corporate.

01:28:53.300 | Just almost, almost everybody in politics

01:28:56.060 | is a corporate, but that doesn't mean the

01:28:58.260 | corporations have completely bought their mind.

01:29:01.500 | They have an influence on their mind and issues

01:29:03.900 | that matter to those corporations.

01:29:05.540 | Yep.

01:29:05.900 | Right.

01:29:06.580 | Like outside of that, they're still thinking

01:29:09.460 | for the voters cause they still have to win the votes.

01:29:11.900 | Barely.

01:29:12.700 | Okay.

01:29:14.140 | So here, let me give you an example.

01:29:16.100 | So you see what I'm saying?

01:29:17.380 | So if you were just wanted votes, you would

01:29:22.260 | do a lot of what Tim Walz did.

01:29:23.620 | Okay.

01:29:24.380 | And, and by the way, a lot of what Bernie

01:29:26.460 | did, that's why Bernie, who had no media

01:29:27.980 | coverage, went from like 2% in 2015 to by

01:29:32.020 | the end, about 48%, because he was just doing

01:29:35.420 | things that were popular, right.

01:29:36.900 | And that American people wanted, et cetera.

01:29:39.340 | Right.

01:29:39.700 | Because he's not controlled by corporations.

01:29:41.660 | By the way, neither is Tom Massey on the

01:29:43.540 | right wing side, on the Republican side.

01:29:45.140 | Right.

01:29:45.460 | So it's not all, that's why I always say

01:29:47.500 | almost all, right.

01:29:48.460 | So if you're doing things that are popular,

01:29:50.580 | people love it.

01:29:51.340 | So today, what would Kamala Harris do if she

01:29:54.540 | actually just wanted to win?

01:29:55.660 | Right.

01:29:56.100 | So number one, she was trying to pass

01:29:59.060 | paid family leave right now.

01:30:00.380 | Why?

01:30:01.380 | It pulls at 84% and even 74% of Republicans

01:30:06.420 | want it.

01:30:06.700 | Why?

01:30:07.460 | Cause it says, hey, when you have a baby,

01:30:09.740 | you should get 12 weeks off, bond with your baby.

01:30:13.500 | Right now, in a lot of States that don't

01:30:16.620 | have paid family leave, you have to go back

01:30:18.700 | to work the very next day, or you have to

01:30:20.220 | use all of your sick days, all your vacation

01:30:22.700 | days, just to have two, one or two weeks

01:30:24.540 | with your baby, right?

01:30:25.740 | So conservatives love paid family leave.

01:30:28.340 | Liberals love paid family leave.

01:30:30.700 | That's why it pulls so high.

01:30:32.100 | So why isn't she proposing it?

01:30:33.620 | It's not in our economic plan.

01:30:35.340 | Tim Walz already passed it in Minnesota.

01:30:37.220 | He showed how easy it was.

01:30:38.860 | If you want votes, it's, and then you know

01:30:41.580 | what's going to happen if you propose paid

01:30:42.820 | family leave, the Republicans are going to

01:30:44.220 | go, no, our beloved corporations don't want

01:30:47.300 | to spend another dollar on moms.

01:30:49.500 | Right.

01:30:49.980 | And they fall for that trap.

01:30:51.620 | And then you're in infinitely better shape.

01:30:53.700 | So why doesn't she do it?

01:30:54.700 | She doesn't do it because her corporate

01:30:57.060 | donors don't want her to do it.

01:30:58.420 | $15 minimum wage layup over two thirds of

01:31:02.020 | the country wants it because it not only

01:31:03.500 | gives you higher wages for minimum wage

01:31:05.180 | folks, but it pushes wages up for others.

01:31:07.140 | And what do the elite say?

01:31:08.900 | Oh, that's going to drive up inflation.

01:31:11.460 | Oh, you shouldn't get paid anymore.

01:31:13.060 | Wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on.

01:31:14.020 | So you're saying all the other prices

01:31:16.540 | should go up, but the only thing that

01:31:17.860 | shouldn't go up is our wages.

01:31:19.460 | No, our wages should go up.

01:31:21.820 | Okay.

01:31:22.500 | So these are all easy ones.

01:31:25.140 | Here's another one.

01:31:25.820 | Anti-corruption.

01:31:26.580 | Why isn't she running on getting

01:31:28.580 | money out of politics?

01:31:29.420 | It pulls it over 90%.

01:31:31.060 | Why isn't Trump running on it anymore?

01:31:33.900 | He won when he ran on it in 2016.

01:31:36.020 | He didn't mean a word of it, but he ran on it.

01:31:38.420 | It was smart.

01:31:39.140 | They don't do it because their corporate

01:31:40.860 | donors take their heads off if they do.

01:31:42.940 | So in contradiction to that, why did

01:31:44.580 | she propose to raise the corporate tax

01:31:48.340 | rate from whatever, 21% to 28%?

01:31:50.940 | Because that's easy because that is

01:31:53.340 | something that's super popular and

01:31:55.860 | she's not going to do it.

01:31:56.620 | That's why.

01:31:58.060 | So, so guys, this is, this is where

01:32:00.780 | I break the hearts of blue MAGA.

01:32:02.620 | Uh, blue MAGA thinks, oh my God, these

01:32:05.420 | Democrats, they're angels and the right

01:32:07.540 | wing is, and the Republicans are evil.

01:32:09.540 | And, and they, they work for big business,

01:32:12.180 | but not Kamala Harris, not Joe Biden.

01:32:14.460 | Right.

01:32:14.900 | Okay.

01:32:16.140 | Well, Donald Trump took the corporate

01:32:18.020 | tax rate from 35% to 21%.

01:32:20.460 | So that's trillions of dollars that got

01:32:22.780 | transferred because guys, you got to

01:32:24.380 | understand if the corporations don't pay

01:32:27.140 | it, we have to pay it because we're running

01:32:30.780 | up these giant deficits and eventually

01:32:32.940 | either they're going to not eventually

01:32:34.700 | keep raising our taxes in different ways

01:32:36.740 | that you're not noticing.

01:32:37.900 | They keep increasing fees and fines and

01:32:40.300 | different ways for the government to

01:32:41.660 | collect money.

01:32:42.460 | So we're paying for it.

01:32:43.980 | And on top of that, eventually they're

01:32:45.300 | going to cut your social security and

01:32:46.460 | Medicare because they're gonna say, oh,

01:32:47.860 | we don't have any options left anymore.

01:32:49.500 | Yeah.

01:32:49.660 | You don't have any options left anymore

01:32:50.980 | because you kept giving trillions of

01:32:52.300 | dollars in tax cuts to corporations.

01:32:54.020 | So we're going to have to pay for that.

01:32:55.900 | So then Trump, then Biden says, oh my

01:32:58.100 | God, I'm going to bring corporate

01:32:59.660 | taxes back up to 28%.

01:33:01.700 | I'm like, wait, hold on.

01:33:02.740 | They were at 35.

01:33:04.620 | You already did a sleight of hand and

01:33:06.620 | said 28, okay.

01:33:08.220 | Then he gets into office and Manchin says,

01:33:11.020 | no, 25, that's the highest I'll go.

01:33:13.940 | And he goes, okay, fine.

01:33:15.020 | 25.

01:33:15.620 | And then while you're not looking,

01:33:17.540 | they just dump it.

01:33:18.340 | They don't even do 25.

01:33:20.300 | It's still a 21.

01:33:21.460 | So hear me now, quote me later.

01:33:23.460 | I do predictions on the show all the time

01:33:25.220 | because you, you should hold me accountable.

01:33:27.020 | You should hold all your pundits accountable.

01:33:28.820 | If you held all your pundits accountable,

01:33:31.060 | we'd be the last man standing and

01:33:32.260 | that's kind of what happened.

01:33:33.060 | Okay.

01:33:33.860 | So I guarantee you, she will

01:33:36.900 | not increase corporate taxes.

01:33:38.300 | So would the same be the case for price

01:33:40.340 | controls or the anti-price gouging that

01:33:42.780 | she's proposing?

01:33:43.300 | So it's not price controls, it's

01:33:44.420 | price, anti-price gouging.

01:33:46.420 | It is price controls, but I mean,

01:33:48.300 | minimum wage is price controls also.

01:33:50.460 | Now we're going to get into a lot of

01:33:51.900 | minutiae, but I'll try to keep it broad.

01:33:53.940 | So price controls are a disaster.

01:33:56.740 | They never work.

01:33:57.820 | If you say, oh, here's a banana.

01:34:00.060 | It has to stay at a dollar, a pound,

01:34:01.820 | make up a number, right?

01:34:03.740 | Well, supply and demand is going to move.

01:34:05.540 | And then that's going to, and so the minute

01:34:07.540 | it moves to $2 of where the price should

01:34:09.540 | be, then you're going to run into shortages.

01:34:11.420 | So we all know this, it's a bad idea, right?

01:34:13.700 | But are there laws against price gouging?

01:34:16.380 | There already are, and they're a good idea.

01:34:18.340 | So why?

01:34:19.700 | Like you have a natural disaster, all of a

01:34:21.660 | sudden, uh, the water that was a dollar,

01:34:24.220 | now they're charging a hundred dollars.

01:34:25.740 | The government has to come in,

01:34:27.420 | democratic capitalism, they come in and go,

01:34:29.740 | no, I'm going to protect the people.

01:34:30.980 | So you're not allowed to price gouge.

01:34:33.940 | You know, maybe charge $2, et cetera, but

01:34:35.980 | you're not going to charge a hundred, but

01:34:37.740 | it is temporary.

01:34:38.660 | We get, we get that done.

01:34:40.620 | We ended the problem there and then we bring

01:34:43.420 | it back to a normal supply and demand.

01:34:44.940 | Okay.

01:34:45.420 | So that's what she's proposing.

01:34:47.100 | It's so that's all political because the

01:34:50.060 | price gouging has already passed.

01:34:51.580 | They did it in 21 and 22.

01:34:53.460 | And so now the grocery stores are

01:34:55.740 | actually low margin business.

01:34:57.220 | She really, she says grocery stores.

01:34:59.660 | That's how I know she doesn't mean it

01:35:01.060 | because the grocery stores weren't the

01:35:02.580 | problem, consumer goods were the problem.

01:35:04.660 | Those companies.

01:35:06.180 | She's following the polls where most people

01:35:08.540 | say that the groceries are too expensive.

01:35:10.340 | So she's just basically address saying the

01:35:14.180 | most popular thing.

01:35:15.100 | Yeah.

01:35:15.380 | A hundred percent.

01:35:16.300 | And you could tell in which proposals she

01:35:18.340 | means it and which proposals she doesn't

01:35:20.180 | because of the, of the framing.

01:35:22.140 | Right.

01:35:22.660 | So this is a mediocre example, but in housing,

01:35:27.300 | she said, we have to stop private equity from

01:35:30.220 | buying, uh, houses in bulk.

01:35:33.060 | I'm like, huh, curious that they put the

01:35:36.220 | word in bulk there.

01:35:37.700 | Why does it have to be in bulk?

01:35:39.820 | Why don't we just stop them from

01:35:40.980 | buying any residential home?

01:35:42.180 | Like you could set up normal boundaries, right?

01:35:44.540 | Uh, for example, Charlie Kirk was on the

01:35:46.300 | Young Turks this week.

01:35:48.220 | By the way, sorry to take that tangent.

01:35:50.380 | I really enjoyed that conversation.

01:35:51.540 | I really enjoyed that.

01:35:52.420 | You talked to, that was like civil, you

01:35:55.620 | guys disagreed pretty intensely, but like

01:35:58.060 | there was a lot of respect.

01:35:59.220 | I really enjoyed that.

01:36:00.460 | Thank you, brother.

01:36:00.980 | That was like, that was beautiful.

01:36:02.060 | You and Charlie Kirk and I think Anna was there.

01:36:04.180 | Yeah, that's right.

01:36:05.020 | So yeah, quick tangent.

01:36:08.300 | And, uh, look, I, I've done a lot of

01:36:11.700 | yelling online.

01:36:12.340 | Okay.

01:36:13.140 | And I, I yell when a, there's a issue that

01:36:18.660 | you should be passionate about 40,000 people,

01:36:22.100 | 25,000 women and children, uh, slaughtered

01:36:24.900 | in Gaza.

01:36:25.540 | If you're not emotionally upset by that and

01:36:27.500 | you think it's no big deal, I think that's

01:36:29.540 | a problem.

01:36:30.020 | But when you add gaslighting on top, that's

01:36:32.580 | what drives me crazy.

01:36:33.460 | And then when you add filibustering on top,

01:36:35.340 | then that sets me off.

01:36:36.700 | So for all my life, right wing has gone on

01:36:39.900 | cable and filibustered.

01:36:41.100 | They take up so much more time than the left

01:36:43.100 | wing guests and the left wing guests always

01:36:45.300 | like, cause, oh, okay, well, I'm offended.

01:36:47.820 | He's taking up too much time.

01:36:49.580 | No brother, go over the top, go over the top.

01:36:51.700 | You're not going to talk over me.

01:36:52.660 | I'm going to talk over you.

01:36:53.540 | Okay.

01:36:54.200 | So, and, uh, and then when you gaslight and

01:36:58.300 | you go, oh no, 1200 people in Israel being

01:37:02.020 | killed is awful, which it is, but 40,000

01:37:05.620 | people being killed in Gaza is no big deal.

01:37:07.260 | We should keep giving them money.

01:37:08.300 | Keep killing, keep killing.

01:37:09.460 | And that that's normal.

01:37:11.260 | No, it's not normal.

01:37:12.260 | I'm not going to let you say it's normal.

01:37:13.820 | That's nuts.

01:37:14.860 | Okay.

01:37:15.440 | When you, like we were against the Iraq war,

01:37:18.100 | there was only two shows that were on the air

01:37:20.140 | nationally that were against the Iraq war, us

01:37:22.380 | and democracy now with Amy Goodman.

01:37:26.300 | And, and at the time I used to yell all the

01:37:29.180 | time because mainstream media would gaslight

01:37:31.340 | the fuck out of us.

01:37:33.020 | We're going to be greeted as liberators.

01:37:34.740 | Me and Ben Mankiewicz on the air.

01:37:36.380 | Ben doesn't yell as much.

01:37:37.700 | He's now the host of Turner classic movies,

01:37:39.260 | but we're, he's saying it in a calm way.

01:37:42.220 | I'm saying it in a screaming way.

01:37:43.700 | We're not going to be greeted as liberators.

01:37:47.100 | When you drop a bomb on someone's head,

01:37:49.340 | they don't greet you as a liberator.

01:37:51.100 | Stop saying insane things.

01:37:53.460 | And seven out of 10 Americans thought

01:37:55.380 | that Saddam Hussein had personally

01:37:56.660 | attacked us on 9/11.

01:37:58.140 | We got lied into that war by corporate media.

01:38:00.740 | Okay.

01:38:01.440 | Now there's one, there's a couple of good

01:38:03.780 | things that Trump has done.

01:38:04.700 | One is get people to realize corporate

01:38:07.340 | media is the matrix, right?

01:38:08.860 | And so now, and get them to an anti-war

01:38:11.340 | position, he himself doesn't have an anti-war

01:38:13.620 | position, but his voters do.

01:38:15.220 | And that's a positive.

01:38:16.180 | We can come back to that.

01:38:17.260 | But these days, the reason why the Charlie

01:38:19.020 | Kirk conversations are going great and Rudy

01:38:21.580 | Giuliani and Mike Lindell, and historically

01:38:24.940 | though, we've been, go back again, 10 years,

01:38:28.500 | 20 years, we've always been respectful when

01:38:31.580 | someone comes on our show and we have a debate.

01:38:33.740 | As long as they're not yelling, I match

01:38:35.820 | the tenor of the host, right?

01:38:37.180 | You and I are having a reasonable conversation.

01:38:39.740 | I'm not raising my voice.

01:38:41.300 | I'm not yelling at you for no reason.

01:38:43.140 | Right.

01:38:43.640 | So now when Charlie's not going to battle

01:38:46.580 | anymore for like talking points, I'm shutting

01:38:51.100 | off my mind, all I'm doing is yelling at you.

01:38:54.260 | Then I'm going to yell back at him.

01:38:55.340 | But now he's saying, okay, let's have

01:38:57.340 | a reasonable conversation.

01:38:58.340 | Great.

01:38:58.660 | I love it.

01:38:59.300 | I love reasonable conversations.

01:39:00.860 | It was great.

01:39:01.660 | It was refreshing.

01:39:02.420 | And, uh, what were we talking about?

01:39:04.700 | You buying up, buying up housing.

01:39:07.060 | Yes.

01:39:07.460 | So Charlie, when he was on said, Hey, listen,

01:39:11.220 | you know, I think that there should be a cap though.

01:39:13.020 | I forget if he said 10 billion or a

01:39:14.220 | hundred billion in assets.

01:39:16.020 | If you have less than that, you should be,

01:39:18.260 | still be able to do real estate as an

01:39:19.780 | investment, even if it's residential.

01:39:21.380 | But above that, it gets to, okay, that's good.

01:39:24.100 | No problem.

01:39:24.700 | Well, we can have a debate about that.

01:39:26.020 | When you figure out is the right number

01:39:27.140 | 10, 125, no problem.

01:39:29.980 | You could put in reasonable limitations,

01:39:31.980 | but, but we got to get them to stop buying the homes.

01:39:35.100 | So when Kamala Harris says, Oh, we'll

01:39:38.060 | stop them from buying homes in bulk.

01:39:40.100 | I'm like, okay, there's the loophole.

01:39:41.500 | And so they're going to use that loophole.

01:39:43.780 | And besides which it's not going to pass

01:39:45.580 | wall street owns the government.

01:39:47.660 | So there's no way corporate Republicans

01:39:50.100 | and Democrats, which are about 98% of

01:39:52.020 | politicians are going to limit private equity.

01:39:54.340 | And, and so when do we ever

01:39:56.060 | get a little bit of change?

01:39:57.180 | When Democrats are in charge, they do

01:40:00.300 | five to 15% of their agenda.

01:40:03.020 | And that's not because they're warmhearted.

01:40:05.940 | It's a release valve, right?

01:40:09.020 | Oh, see under Obama, we got about 5% change.

01:40:13.340 | And what was that?

01:40:16.700 | That was Obamacare, right?

01:40:18.260 | That was most of the change that we got.

01:40:20.580 | And what's the greatest part of Obamacare.

01:40:22.860 | And now I, a lot of right-wing also agree,

01:40:24.660 | almost all of right-wing agree about this

01:40:26.580 | portion, which is they got rid of the bias

01:40:29.700 | against preexisting conditions.

01:40:31.180 | Why did they do that particularly?

01:40:33.220 | Because the country was about to get in a fucking rage.

01:40:37.820 | We all have preexisting conditions.

01:40:39.900 | If you deny me when I'm sick, what the fuck's

01:40:42.140 | the point of insurance, right?

01:40:43.740 | And the anger had gotten to a nuclear level.

01:40:46.620 | So the release valve, get rid of preexisting

01:40:49.020 | conditions, let's go back to just milking

01:40:51.660 | them regularly and oh, by the way, put in a

01:40:54.140 | mandate so that they have to buy it from us.

01:40:56.660 | Right.

01:40:57.380 | Do you know who originally came up with Obamacare?

01:41:00.140 | The Heritage Foundation.

01:41:02.300 | It was their proposal.

01:41:04.300 | Romney did it in Massachusetts.

01:41:06.260 | It was called Romneycare.

01:41:07.780 | So I think this is a super important election,

01:41:10.820 | but I've earned the credibility to be able

01:41:12.780 | to say that because in 2012, I said, this is

01:41:15.260 | a largely unimportant election.

01:41:17.420 | Mitt Romney and Barack Obama's policies on

01:41:20.300 | economic issues are near identical.

01:41:23.380 | Obamacare was literally Romneycare.

01:41:26.260 | Right now, the left says, oh, the Heritage

01:41:28.220 | Foundation, it's so dangerous.

01:41:29.940 | Project 2025.

01:41:31.500 | Well, brother, they're the ones who wrote

01:41:33.540 | Obamacare and you say that's the greatest

01:41:36.300 | change in the world, right?

01:41:37.620 | So that's why the Democrats, yeah, I'll

01:41:41.180 | take the 10% change overall.

01:41:43.020 | I think Biden did about 15%, but Obama did 5%.

01:41:46.980 | But they're going to, they'll also march

01:41:49.540 | you backwards by deregulating like Clinton

01:41:51.540 | did and Obama did the bank bailouts like

01:41:53.500 | Obama did, but 10% is better than 0%, but

01:41:56.420 | it's not to help you.

01:41:57.580 | It's the release valve.

01:41:58.580 | So the system keeps going.

01:42:00.100 | Is it possible to steel man the case that,

01:42:03.580 | uh, that not all politicians are corporatists

01:42:08.580 | or, or maybe how would you approach that?

01:42:12.420 | For example, this podcast has a bunch of

01:42:14.260 | sponsors and I give zero fucks about what

01:42:18.460 | they think about what I'm saying.

01:42:19.660 | Like I have zero control over me.

01:42:21.100 | Um, maybe you could say that's not, that's

01:42:23.740 | because it's not a lot of money or maybe

01:42:25.540 | he's, maybe I'm a unique person or something

01:42:29.780 | like this, but, um, I just think it's

01:42:32.740 | possible to have, and I would like to

01:42:35.020 | believe a lot of politicians that this

01:42:36.540 | way that they have ideas and while they

01:42:39.260 | take money, they kind of, uh, see it as a

01:42:42.860 | game that, you know, you accept the money,

01:42:45.860 | kind of go to certain parties, hug people

01:42:49.900 | and so on, but it doesn't actually

01:42:52.060 | fundamentally compromise, um, your integrity

01:42:55.700 | on issues you actually care about.

01:42:57.180 | I can steel man almost anything.

01:42:59.300 | Uh, I can steel man Trump.

01:43:00.820 | I can steel man conservatives easily, right?

01:43:03.780 | Uh, corporate politicians is a hard one.

01:43:06.460 | So first, um, then it's not all politicians.

01:43:09.700 | We can start out nice and easy.

01:43:11.540 | Tom Massey, uh, now Holly and Gates

01:43:14.820 | taking, uh, not taking corporate PAC money.

01:43:16.900 | Uh, Bernie, the squad, they don't

01:43:19.500 | take corporate PAC money.

01:43:20.220 | You could disagree on either end of those,

01:43:22.500 | uh, folks on social issues, but generally

01:43:26.540 | they are a thousand times less corrupt.

01:43:29.180 | They're more honest.

01:43:30.380 | Uh, and part of the reason you might hate

01:43:32.500 | the squad is because they're so honest.

01:43:33.980 | They tell you their real opinion on social

01:43:36.140 | issues that you really disagree with.

01:43:37.500 | A lot of the corporate politicians won't

01:43:39.100 | do that because they're trying to get as

01:43:40.380 | many votes as possible so they can fillet

01:43:42.860 | their donors, uh, when they get into office

01:43:45.020 | and do all their favors for them.

01:43:46.300 | Okay.

01:43:46.660 | But you see, I'm already falling apart

01:43:48.060 | on the steel manning of corporate politicians.

01:43:50.180 | Let's like zoom in on that.

01:43:51.300 | So if you take corporate PAC money,

01:43:53.420 | you're, that's it.

01:43:55.860 | You're, you're corrupted.

01:43:57.060 | I mean, can you imagine yourself, say

01:43:58.820 | you're a politician, you're a president,

01:44:00.420 | uh, you're a human being, you're a person

01:44:05.300 | with integrity, you're a person who

01:44:06.660 | thinks about the world.

01:44:07.580 | You're saying if I was a corporate

01:44:10.300 | PAC and I give you a billion dollars,

01:44:12.180 | you still, you'd be, I could tell you

01:44:14.220 | anything.

01:44:14.660 | So Lex, everything is a spectrum.

01:44:17.180 | Humanity is a spectrum.

01:44:18.460 | So can you find outliers who could take

01:44:21.860 | corporate PAC money and still be principled

01:44:24.460 | enough to resist this lure?

01:44:26.980 | Yeah.

01:44:28.060 | Uh, and, and I would hope that I would

01:44:30.500 | be a person like that, but I wouldn't

01:44:31.780 | take corporate PAC money, but if you force

01:44:33.260 | me to, uh, I think I would still

01:44:35.660 | stay principled and do it.

01:44:36.940 | Could you find 10, 20 other people in the

01:44:39.180 | country?

01:44:39.740 | Yeah.

01:44:40.420 | But on average, that is not what will

01:44:44.380 | happen.

01:44:44.780 | What will happen is they will take the

01:44:47.100 | money and do exactly as they are told.

01:44:49.700 | I think most people have integrity.

01:44:52.340 | Okay.

01:44:53.780 | Okay.

01:44:54.300 | Hold on.

01:44:54.580 | So what I'm more worried about is when

01:44:56.980 | you take corporate PAC money, it's not

01:44:59.820 | that you are immediately sold, is over time.

01:45:02.620 | Over time.

01:45:03.260 | That's true.

01:45:03.740 | So yeah, I get it.

01:45:05.020 | Um, but I wonder if, if the integrity

01:45:08.500 | that I think most people have can withstand

01:45:10.700 | the gradual slippery slope of, uh, uh, of

01:45:15.260 | the effect of corporate money, which if,

01:45:18.820 | if what I'm saying is true, that most

01:45:21.020 | people have integrity, one of the ways to

01:45:23.260 | solve the effect of corporate money is

01:45:25.900 | term limits.

01:45:26.540 | Because it takes time to corrupt people.

01:45:29.060 | You can't buy them immediately.

01:45:30.660 | And then the term limits can, uh, uh, for

01:45:34.700 | the listener, Jenkins, uh, shaking his head.

01:45:38.380 | Yeah.

01:45:38.900 | No.

01:45:39.420 | So look, you're right that, uh, over

01:45:41.060 | time, it gets way worse.

01:45:42.220 | And as we talked about earlier, Biden's

01:45:43.620 | a great example of that comes in.

01:45:44.900 | Anti-corruption winds up being totally

01:45:47.100 | pro-corruption by the end.

01:45:48.380 | Um, and, but he was also here for almost

01:45:51.700 | all of it, as we started in a world that

01:45:53.940 | was not run by money in politics, and it's

01:45:56.060 | now completely run by money in politics.

01:45:57.940 | So, uh, does it get worse over time?

01:46:00.460 | Cinema is a Kristen cinema in, uh, Arizona

01:46:03.140 | is a great example of that comes in as a

01:46:04.580 | progressive, doesn't want to take PAC money,

01:46:07.220 | uh, cares about the average person, et

01:46:09.940 | cetera.

01:46:10.500 | Uh, over time, she becomes the biggest

01:46:12.540 | corporatist in the Senate, uh, and a total

01:46:15.580 | disaster.

01:46:16.260 | Uh, but if you say that the majority of,

01:46:19.500 | uh, politicians have been, I don't know if

01:46:22.340 | this is what you're saying.

01:46:23.060 | Majority of politicians have integrity.

01:46:25.780 | Um, no, let's start at the majority of

01:46:29.260 | human beings.

01:46:30.820 | I think that politicians are not, there are

01:46:34.860 | not a special group of like sociopaths.

01:46:38.380 | I think they are.

01:46:39.100 | They lean a little bit towards that

01:46:41.060 | direction, but they're not like only

01:46:43.020 | sociopaths go into politics.

01:46:44.700 | It's like, you have to have some sociopathic

01:46:47.060 | qualities, I think, to go into politics,

01:46:48.980 | but, but they're not complete sociopaths.

01:46:51.380 | I think they do have integrity.

01:46:52.700 | Cause sometimes for very selfish reasons,

01:46:55.780 | it's not all about money, even for a selfish

01:46:58.500 | person, for a narcissist.

01:47:00.100 | It's, it's also about being recognized

01:47:02.860 | for having had positive impact on the world.

01:47:05.220 | Yeah, I get it, but all right.

01:47:08.660 | So let's break it down.

01:47:09.300 | So first, uh, human beings, then

01:47:11.500 | we'll get to politicians.

01:47:12.380 | Do human beings have integrity?

01:47:14.380 | Well, it's a spectrum.

01:47:16.300 | So some people are, have enormous integrity.

01:47:19.580 | Some people have no integrity.

01:47:21.140 | So there is not one type or character, right?

01:47:25.740 | So some people have a ton of empathy for

01:47:28.140 | other human beings and they literally feel it.

01:47:30.900 | Like I feel the pain of someone else.

01:47:33.060 | And I'm not alone.

01:47:34.420 | Most people feel the pain of someone else.

01:47:35.940 | If you see it on video, a baby being

01:47:38.740 | hurt, an overwhelming majority of, of

01:47:42.340 | human beings will go, no, right.

01:47:44.780 | You have empathy.

01:47:45.660 | That's a natural feeling that you have.

01:47:47.220 | Some people have no empathy because

01:47:50.380 | they're on the extreme end of the

01:47:51.460 | spectrum, uh, serial killers and Donald Trump.

01:47:54.820 | Uh, okay.

01:47:55.820 | And so I'm, I'm partly joking, but not

01:47:59.260 | really, he has never demonstrated any empathy

01:48:02.820 | that I have ever seen for any other human being.

01:48:05.180 | I'm going to trigger some right-wingers

01:48:06.900 | cause they think every terrible thing he

01:48:08.620 | said is out of context or joking or not

01:48:11.220 | real or fake news, but his chief of staff

01:48:14.100 | didn't make it up.

01:48:14.940 | He called, uh, people who went into

01:48:17.540 | the military suckers and losers.

01:48:19.060 | Why, why did he say that?

01:48:20.460 | If just hang with me for a second,

01:48:22.380 | don't have your head explode.

01:48:23.380 | Okay.

01:48:24.300 | I'm not saying the likes I'm saying to the

01:48:25.620 | right-wingers out there.

01:48:26.420 | Right.

01:48:26.740 | So the reason is because if you're like

01:48:29.980 | Trump and you don't, you literally

01:48:31.900 | don't feel the empathy.

01:48:33.380 | You think, why the hell would I go in the

01:48:35.940 | military, get killed for someone else?

01:48:38.100 | What a sucker.

01:48:39.580 | No, I'm going to stay out of the military.

01:48:41.620 | I'm going to stay alive.

01:48:42.660 | I'm going to make a ton of money and I'm

01:48:44.260 | going to look out for myself.

01:48:45.220 | And he assumes, because everybody does this,

01:48:49.100 | you assume that everyone thinks like

01:48:51.020 | you do, but they don't.

01:48:53.020 | So Trump assumes everybody's as much

01:48:55.060 | of a dirt bag as he is.

01:48:56.700 | And because he doesn't feel it, he

01:48:58.620 | doesn't feel the empathy.

01:48:59.780 | And so he's like, yeah, you'd be an idiot,

01:49:02.940 | a sucker and a loser to go into the

01:49:04.340 | military and have a sacrifice for other

01:49:06.900 | people.

01:49:07.460 | So you see the spectrum, even if you think

01:49:09.420 | Trump's not on that end and you think I'm

01:49:10.900 | wrong about that, you get that there are

01:49:12.140 | people on that end, right?

01:49:13.340 | So you have a spectrum of integrity,

01:49:16.260 | empathy, et cetera.

01:49:17.580 | That's what I would call your hardware.

01:49:19.380 | You layer on top of that, your software.

01:49:22.300 | Okay.

01:49:22.540 | And the software is cultural influences.

01:49:24.620 | Your parents, media, your friends, all

01:49:28.620 | these are cultural influences.

01:49:30.140 | So now when you're in certain industries,

01:49:34.300 | they value more integrity.

01:49:36.500 | So religious leaders, if you're doing it

01:49:39.860 | right, which is also very rare, right?

01:49:41.860 | But if you're doing it right, you're supposed

01:49:43.980 | to have empathy for the poor, the needy,

01:49:45.620 | the whole flock, right?

01:49:47.220 | So that profession is incentivizing you

01:49:51.420 | towards empathy and integrity.

01:49:52.940 | Okay.

01:49:53.540 | And even then a giant amount of people

01:49:56.980 | abuse it, right?

01:49:57.900 | But okay, good.

01:49:58.820 | In politics, it creates incentives

01:50:02.060 | for the opposite, no integrity.

01:50:04.780 | And that software to your point over time

01:50:08.700 | gets stronger and stronger and stronger

01:50:11.380 | until it takes over.

01:50:12.740 | Now you might have someone with a lot of

01:50:14.740 | integrity, like Tom Massey, right?

01:50:16.820 | A Republican from Kentucky.

01:50:19.700 | And whether I agree with him or disagree

01:50:22.340 | with him on policy, I get that the brother

01:50:24.540 | is actually doing it based on principles.

01:50:26.420 | And there isn't any amount of money you

01:50:28.220 | can give Tom Massey for him to change

01:50:30.140 | his principles.

01:50:30.820 | Why?

01:50:31.380 | He's on the principled end of the spectrum

01:50:33.900 | as a human being, right?

01:50:35.140 | So is Bernie.

01:50:36.100 | They're in the same part of that, that

01:50:37.660 | spectrum, right?

01:50:38.700 | But for most people, the great majority

01:50:42.060 | of the spectrum, if you overload them with

01:50:44.220 | software that incentivizes them to not have

01:50:46.900 | integrity, they will succumb.

01:50:49.300 | And now let's switch to

01:50:50.780 | politicians in particular.

01:50:51.980 | Why do I think that they're on average far

01:50:55.780 | more likely to be on the sociopathic part

01:50:58.340 | of the spectrum because of the incentives

01:51:02.220 | and disincentives.

01:51:02.980 | So this changes every congressional cycle.

01:51:05.940 | And when just Democrats were winning a lot,

01:51:08.020 | it got all the way down to 87 and a half

01:51:09.940 | percent, but on average for congressional

01:51:12.660 | elections, the person with more money wins

01:51:15.140 | 95% of the time.

01:51:16.860 | It doesn't matter if they're a liberal

01:51:18.260 | or conservative Republican or Democrat

01:51:20.180 | or any ideology they have 95%.

01:51:23.980 | Okay.

01:51:24.580 | So now let's say you got the 5% that went

01:51:27.060 | in, uh, that are not hooked on the money.

01:51:29.700 | Well, they're going to get a primary

01:51:31.900 | challenge, then they're going to get a

01:51:32.980 | general election challenge.

01:51:34.220 | And 95% of the time, the one with more

01:51:36.700 | money wins.

01:51:37.300 | So eventually this system cycles through

01:51:40.260 | until only the core, almost only the

01:51:42.420 | corrupt are left.

01:51:43.180 | Wait, hold on a second.

01:51:44.260 | Is that, is that real 95%?

01:51:47.260 | So if you have more money, 95% of the

01:51:52.140 | time you win, huh?

01:51:53.300 | Yes.

01:51:54.060 | I'd like to believe that's less the case

01:51:59.540 | for, for example, for higher you get.

01:52:02.060 | Yes, that's true.

01:52:02.900 | You're right.

01:52:03.380 | So you know why?

01:52:04.620 | So the presidential race is ironically in

01:52:07.700 | some ways, the least corrupt.

01:52:09.060 | So let's dive into why.

01:52:12.380 | If you're running a local race anywhere in

01:52:15.100 | the country, you're going to get almost no

01:52:16.500 | press coverage, meaning congressional race,

01:52:18.220 | right?

01:52:18.620 | If you're running a Senate race in the

01:52:20.780 | middle of Montana, you're going to get

01:52:23.420 | almost no media coverage.

01:52:24.620 | So that's where your money in politics has

01:52:27.540 | the most effect because then you could

01:52:29.620 | just buy the airwaves.

01:52:30.980 | You outspend the other guy, you get all

01:52:32.820 | the ads.

01:52:33.180 | Plus you get the friendly media coverage

01:52:35.100 | because he just bought a couple of million

01:52:36.780 | dollars of ads in the middle of Montana.

01:52:39.060 | So the local news loves you, the TV

01:52:41.460 | stations, the radio stations, the papers.

01:52:43.300 | So some of the papers are principled.

01:52:45.500 | They might say, Oh no, but overall, they're

01:52:47.380 | not calling you a radical.

01:52:48.500 | They're not calling you anything.

01:52:49.740 | And you're buying those races.

01:52:51.540 | But when you get to the presidential race,

01:52:53.540 | that's much harder because presidential

01:52:56.060 | race, you have earned media, free media

01:52:58.740 | that overwhelms paid media.

01:53:00.660 | Perfect examples, 2016, Hillary Clinton

01:53:03.540 | outraces Trump by about two to one, but

01:53:05.860 | she loses anyway.

01:53:06.700 | Why?

01:53:07.540 | Cause Trump got almost twice as much earned

01:53:11.100 | media as she did.

01:53:12.340 | And the earned media is better.

01:53:13.860 | It's inside the content.

01:53:15.540 | Right.

01:53:15.820 | That is definitely better.

01:53:16.940 | So in a presidential election, as long as

01:53:21.140 | you got past the primary, you could actually

01:53:23.780 | win with not that much money.

01:53:25.860 | And, and that's part of the reason why I

01:53:29.220 | have hope Lex, because all you got to do is

01:53:32.340 | get past a Republican or Democratic primary.

01:53:34.780 | And now that's very, very, very difficult,

01:53:36.700 | but Trump did it right now.

01:53:38.820 | He took it in the wrong direction, but he

01:53:40.900 | did get leave a blueprint for how to do it.

01:53:43.500 | And so once you get to the general election,

01:53:46.620 | you're off to the races, you could do any

01:53:47.940 | goddamn thing you like.

01:53:48.940 | Okay.

01:53:49.500 | You could be super popular.

01:53:50.900 | You don't have to give a shit about the donors.

01:53:52.540 | You can get into office.

01:53:53.700 | You could bully your own party and the other

01:53:55.700 | party into doing what you want and you can

01:53:57.660 | get everything done.

01:53:58.340 | You could even get money out of politics.

01:53:59.820 | So don't lose hope.

01:54:01.060 | I mean, we even started Operation Hope at

01:54:03.420 | TYT and our first project was to knock Biden

01:54:06.660 | out and everybody said, you guys are nuts.

01:54:08.660 | That's totally impossible.

01:54:09.700 | And we knocked Biden out.

01:54:11.380 | All right.

01:54:11.940 | Did we do it alone?

01:54:13.060 | Of course not.

01:54:13.740 | We were a small part of it, right?

01:54:15.100 | But we laid the groundwork for hope and we

01:54:20.100 | laid the groundwork for when he flopped in

01:54:21.860 | the debate, people had already been told,

01:54:24.500 | remember, he's bad, he's old, he's not right.

01:54:26.700 | And the debate proved it.

01:54:28.260 | If we hadn't done that groundwork and not

01:54:30.460 | just Young Turks, obviously, but Axelrod

01:54:32.860 | and Carville and Nate Silver and Ezra Klein,

01:54:36.180 | et cetera, Charlemagne, the God, Jon Stewart,

01:54:38.660 | all these people helped a lot so that when

01:54:41.660 | the debate happened, it confirmed the idea

01:54:45.140 | that out there that he was too old and couldn't do it.

01:54:47.060 | So my point is, hope is, if you lose hope,

01:54:51.340 | you're done for, then they're definitely

01:54:53.300 | going to win, right?

01:54:54.220 | Hope is the most dangerous thing in

01:54:56.220 | the world for the elites.

01:54:57.580 | So whether you're right-wing or left-wing,

01:54:59.460 | I need you to have hope and I need you to

01:55:01.060 | understand it's not misplaced.

01:55:02.860 | We just got to get past the primary and we're

01:55:05.420 | going to turn this whole thing around.

01:55:06.740 | So you, basically a presidential

01:55:09.420 | candidate who's a populist, who in part

01:55:14.180 | runs on getting money out of politics.

01:55:16.540 | Okay.

01:55:18.340 | Well, then let's talk about Donald Trump.

01:55:20.980 | So to me, the two biggest criticisms of

01:55:24.420 | Trump is the fake election scheme.

01:55:28.540 | Out of that whole 2020 election, the fake

01:55:31.380 | election scheme is the thing that really bothers me.

01:55:33.740 | And then the second thing across a larger

01:55:36.820 | timescale is the counterproductive division

01:55:42.500 | that he's created in, let's say, our public

01:55:45.220 | discourse.

01:55:45.860 | What are your top five criticisms of Trump?

01:55:48.340 | Okay.

01:55:48.780 | So number one, I have the same exact thing as

01:55:52.380 | you, the fake elector scheme is unacceptable,

01:55:55.340 | totally disqualifying.

01:55:56.820 | So the fake elector scheme was a literal coup

01:56:00.140 | attempt.

01:56:00.900 | So he doesn't win the elections, for folks

01:56:03.420 | who don't know, I need to explain why it's

01:56:05.940 | a coup attempt, because you just throw out

01:56:07.980 | words and then people get triggered by the

01:56:09.780 | words and then they go into their separate

01:56:11.380 | corners, right?

01:56:12.060 | So the January 6th rioters, they were not

01:56:17.020 | going to keep the building.

01:56:18.540 | That was not a coup attempt.

01:56:19.980 | It's not like, oh, the MAGA guys have the

01:56:22.700 | building, I guess they win, right?

01:56:25.140 | No, that was never going to happen.

01:56:26.860 | So what was the point of the January 6th

01:56:28.980 | riot?

01:56:29.340 | It was to delay the proceedings.

01:56:31.180 | Why did it matter that they were going to

01:56:32.900 | delay the proceedings?

01:56:34.180 | Because if you can't certify the election,

01:56:35.900 | they wanted general confusion and chaos so

01:56:38.420 | that the Republicans in Congress could say,

01:56:40.220 | well, we don't know who won, so we're going

01:56:42.220 | to have to kick it back to the States.

01:56:43.740 | In the States, they had the fake electors

01:56:46.180 | ready, and remember the fake electors are

01:56:48.340 | not Trump's electors.

01:56:50.060 | There's both candidates have a slate of

01:56:52.980 | electors, Biden's electors and Trump's

01:56:54.660 | electors.

01:56:55.060 | They go to the Trump electors first in this

01:56:57.420 | plan and half the Trump electors go, no, I'm

01:57:01.740 | not going to pretend Trump won the election

01:57:03.700 | when he didn't win the election.

01:57:04.900 | So they're like, shit, now we've got to

01:57:06.780 | come up with fake electors.

01:57:08.020 | Okay.

01:57:08.580 | So they enlist these Republicans to go,

01:57:10.700 | yeah, I'll pretend Trump won.

01:57:12.020 | Right.

01:57:12.580 | And so they sign a piece of paper, that's

01:57:14.660 | fraud, and that's why a lot of them are now

01:57:16.940 | being prosecuted in the different States.

01:57:19.340 | And so the idea is the Republican

01:57:23.660 | legislature, legislators then go, we're

01:57:26.780 | sending these new electors in, and we think

01:57:29.740 | Trump won Arizona and Georgia and Wisconsin.

01:57:32.740 | Right.

01:57:33.140 | That was the idea.

01:57:34.260 | That was the plan.

01:57:35.020 | And then you come back to the house at that

01:57:38.180 | point, when there are two different sets of

01:57:40.020 | electors, the rule constitutional rule is

01:57:43.260 | the house decides, but the house decides not

01:57:46.900 | on a majority because the Democrats had the

01:57:49.500 | majority at the time.

01:57:50.340 | They decide on a majority of the States.

01:57:52.820 | They vote by state and the Republicans had

01:57:55.740 | the majority of the States.

01:57:57.180 | So in that way, you steal the election, even

01:58:00.500 | though Trump didn't win, you install him back

01:58:02.860 | in as president, that is a frontal assault on

01:58:05.940 | democracy and I loathe it.

01:58:08.260 | And then Trump on top just blabbers out.

01:58:11.820 | Well, sometimes you have, if there's massive

01:58:14.180 | fraud in an election, in other words, I think

01:58:16.380 | I won, I don't even think that I'm just

01:58:18.380 | saying that I won.

01:58:19.220 | Right.

01:58:19.860 | He says you can terminate any rule regulation

01:58:23.500 | or article, even in the constitution.

01:58:25.300 | No brother, you cannot terminate the

01:58:27.620 | constitution because you'd like to do a fake

01:58:30.220 | elector scheme and do a coup against America.

01:58:32.420 | Fuck you.

01:58:34.060 | Okay.

01:58:34.740 | So I'm never going to allow this want to be

01:58:37.820 | tyrant to go back into the white house and

01:58:40.220 | endanger our system.

01:58:42.260 | And so you want to endanger the corrupt system.

01:58:44.740 | I'm the guy.

01:58:45.460 | Okay.

01:58:46.140 | Let's go get that corrupt system and tear it down.

01:58:48.500 | If you want to endanger the real system,

01:58:50.660 | democracy, capitalism, the constitution,

01:58:53.820 | then I'm your biggest enemy.

01:58:55.060 | So I'm never going to take that risk.

01:58:57.900 | And you see it every time he goes to talk

01:59:00.100 | to a dictator.

01:59:00.900 | Look, guys, I'm asking you to be principled.

01:59:03.580 | Right.

01:59:04.260 | I asked the left of that and we drive away

01:59:06.460 | some of our audience when we do that.

01:59:08.060 | So we got the balls to do that to our, to

01:59:10.340 | our own side.

01:59:11.140 | So for the right wing, be honest, if it was

01:59:14.340 | Joe Biden or Barack Obama or Kamala Harris,

01:59:17.180 | that went and wrote quote unquote, love

01:59:20.780 | letters to a communist dictator who runs

01:59:23.860 | concentration camps, you would say communist.

01:59:27.980 | We knew it.

01:59:28.980 | Look at that.

01:59:30.060 | And Trump literally says about Kim Jong

01:59:31.980 | Un, we wrote love letters to one another.

01:59:34.020 | I fell, we fell in love.

01:59:35.980 | If a Democrat said that they'd be

01:59:38.420 | politically decapitated, right?

01:59:40.820 | They, they, their career would be instantly

01:59:43.300 | over, right?

01:59:44.540 | But Trump, whatever's Xi Jinping, Vladimir

01:59:47.620 | Putin, I'm not, don't get into Russia, Russia,

01:59:49.260 | Russia, but it's just that he's a strong man.

01:59:51.300 | Right.

01:59:51.620 | Uh, uh, Kim Jong Un or any, uh, Victor

01:59:55.580 | Orban, Duterte in the Philippines.

01:59:58.220 | Anytime it's a strong man that says,

02:00:01.620 | screw our constitution, screw our rules.

02:00:04.060 | I want total loyalty to one person.

02:00:06.980 | Trump loves them.

02:00:08.340 | He loves them.

02:00:09.700 | He said once he's like, oh, it's great.

02:00:12.180 | You go to North Korea or China.

02:00:13.660 | And when the, uh, leader walks in,

02:00:16.460 | everybody applauds and everybody

02:00:18.740 | listens to what he says.

02:00:19.820 | That's how we should be here.

02:00:20.860 | No brother.

02:00:21.460 | That's not how it should be here.

02:00:22.620 | You hate democracy.

02:00:24.220 | You want to be the sole guy in charge.

02:00:27.100 | As a populist, you should loathe Donald Trump.

02:00:29.540 | I agree on the fake electric scheme.

02:00:31.380 | Can you steal man and maybe educate me

02:00:34.580 | on, um, there's a book rigged that I

02:00:37.460 | started reading.

02:00:38.580 | Is there any degree to which the election

02:00:42.500 | was rigged or elections in general are rigged?

02:00:45.300 | So I think the book rigged, the main case

02:00:47.860 | they make is not that there's some, uh, shady

02:00:50.500 | fake, uh, ballots.

02:00:52.380 | It's more the impact of mainstream media and

02:00:55.900 | the impact of a big tech.

02:00:57.660 | So rigged is another one of those words

02:01:00.380 | that triggers people and is ill-defined, right?

02:01:03.380 | So let's begin to define it.

02:01:05.180 | So the worst case of rigged is we actually

02:01:10.620 | changed the votes, right?

02:01:12.060 | So a lot of Trump people think that that's

02:01:14.340 | what happened.

02:01:14.980 | Nonsense.

02:01:15.820 | That didn't happen at all.

02:01:16.780 | Okay.

02:01:17.380 | So then you move.

02:01:19.100 | And by the way, some on the left thought

02:01:22.260 | the votes were changed in the 2016 primary

02:01:25.380 | and it was literally rigged against Bernie.

02:01:27.180 | No, that did not happen.

02:01:28.580 | Okay.

02:01:29.260 | That is a massive crime and is very risky

02:01:33.340 | and is relatively easy to get caught.

02:01:35.140 | People who are in power are not interested

02:01:37.660 | in getting caught.

02:01:38.380 | They're not interested in going to jail,

02:01:40.060 | et cetera.

02:01:40.740 | It is a very extreme thing.

02:01:42.540 | Could it happen?

02:01:43.260 | Yes, it could happen.

02:01:44.180 | Have I seen any evidence of it happening

02:01:46.820 | in my lifetime?

02:01:48.060 | Not really.

02:01:48.820 | Given how much people hate this, you probably

02:01:52.620 | just need to find evidence of one time.

02:01:55.820 | Like one vote being changed where you can trace

02:01:59.900 | them saying something in some room somewhere

02:02:02.260 | that would just explode.

02:02:04.420 | And just that evidence just doesn't

02:02:06.220 | seem to be there.

02:02:06.940 | And by the way, for the right wing who say

02:02:08.940 | verify the vote, goddamn right, verify the vote.

02:02:11.420 | Right?

02:02:11.780 | So you want to do, have different proposals

02:02:13.540 | like paper ballots, recounts, hand recounts,

02:02:15.780 | which by the way, you had not the paper

02:02:18.180 | ballots, but the three recounts and a hand

02:02:20.820 | recount in Georgia and so many of these swing

02:02:22.780 | States, he lost, he lost, he lost.

02:02:25.180 | There was no significant voter fraud.

02:02:27.140 | Now, second thing in terms of, uh, of

02:02:30.700 | rigging is voter fraud.

02:02:32.660 | So how, and the right wing believes, oh my

02:02:35.260 | God, it's voter fraud everywhere.

02:02:36.340 | Not remotely true.

02:02:37.460 | Heritage foundation does a study.

02:02:39.340 | They want to prove it so badly.

02:02:41.060 | And it turns out no matter how much

02:02:43.060 | they move the numbers, the final number

02:02:44.700 | they got was, it happens 0.000006% of the time.

02:02:53.580 | Okay.

02:02:54.540 | It almost never happens.

02:02:56.100 | They found like 31 instances over a

02:02:58.340 | decade or two decades.

02:02:59.740 | So it's.

02:03:00.940 | Well, what counts as voter fraud?

02:03:02.860 | So a lot of times these days it'll be

02:03:05.260 | Republicans who do it because it'll be,

02:03:06.980 | and it's not nefarious.

02:03:08.100 | It's a knucklehead who goes in and he's,

02:03:10.260 | oh, I heard they are, they're having

02:03:11.660 | undocumented illegals vote.

02:03:14.180 | So I voted for me and my mom, even

02:03:15.780 | though she's dead, but that's fair.

02:03:17.300 | They're doing it.

02:03:17.980 | No brother.

02:03:19.420 | That's not fair.

02:03:20.180 | That's not how it works.

02:03:21.540 | You're under arrest.

02:03:22.540 | So what about non-citizens voting?

02:03:24.620 | So it's preposterous.

02:03:26.700 | Of course, non-citizens shouldn't

02:03:27.980 | vote and they don't vote.

02:03:29.500 | But there's not, you don't have to prove

02:03:32.180 | citizenship when you're voting, right?

02:03:33.660 | No, you do.

02:03:35.140 | I mean, so it depends on what you mean

02:03:37.260 | by prove and when you vote, right?

02:03:39.220 | So you're not allowed to vote

02:03:41.300 | as a undocumented immigrant.

02:03:43.940 | So that happens upfront when you go to,

02:03:46.860 | like, again, it's a hall of mirrors.

02:03:49.100 | Like there's so many different

02:03:50.060 | ways to create mirages.

02:03:51.820 | So the Republicans will say, well, when

02:03:54.100 | you go to the voting booth, they don't

02:03:55.500 | make you show a passport.

02:03:56.580 | Yeah, that's true.

02:03:58.380 | But you showed it earlier when

02:03:59.940 | you registered, right?

02:04:01.300 | And so, and we can get into voter ID laws.

02:04:04.860 | There's all sorts of things, but we got

02:04:06.100 | to, we'll speed up the spectrum, right?

02:04:07.820 | So these things almost never happen.

02:04:09.700 | Voter fraud happens super rarely, uh,

02:04:12.180 | and not enough to swing elections.

02:04:13.780 | And by the way, sometimes if there

02:04:15.180 | is an issue, they'll redo an election.

02:04:16.700 | There is actually a process for that.

02:04:18.100 | And it happened in North Carolina

02:04:19.660 | because Republicans did voter fraud

02:04:21.060 | in this one district.

02:04:22.060 | Okay.

02:04:22.460 | And it wasn't the candidate himself.

02:04:24.060 | It was this campaign person and they

02:04:26.380 | did ballot harvesting and then, but

02:04:29.340 | ballot harvesting, again, it depends

02:04:30.780 | on what you mean.

02:04:31.260 | If you're just collecting ballots,

02:04:32.340 | that's okay.

02:04:32.980 | He changed the ballots.

02:04:34.580 | That's not okay.

02:04:35.700 | And so they had to redo that election.

02:04:37.580 | So, um, now the real place where it gets

02:04:41.580 | rigged is before elections and there's

02:04:44.180 | two main ways that things get rigged.

02:04:46.140 | One is almost exclusively.

02:04:50.140 | No, that's not fair.

02:04:52.020 | I was going to say Republicans, but

02:04:53.140 | Democrats do it too in a different way.

02:04:54.900 | So Republicans will come in like Brian

02:04:56.660 | Kemp is the king of this in Georgia.

02:04:58.220 | So he was against Trump doing it ex

02:05:00.740 | post facto.

02:05:01.380 | He's like, no, you idiot.

02:05:02.780 | We don't cheat after the election.

02:05:04.180 | We cheat before the election.

02:05:05.620 | Okay.

02:05:06.180 | So they'll go, well, I mean, you got

02:05:07.860 | to clear out the voter rolls every once

02:05:09.220 | in a while.

02:05:09.460 | And that's true because people die,

02:05:11.100 | people move and you got to

02:05:12.180 | clean out the voter rolls.

02:05:13.060 | So then they come in and they go, we

02:05:15.220 | will clean them out mainly in black areas.

02:05:17.260 | Okay.

02:05:18.180 | Oh, look at that.

02:05:19.140 | There goes a couple of million black

02:05:20.900 | voters.

02:05:21.380 | Well, some of those I suppose are real

02:05:23.540 | voters, but they'll have to re-register

02:05:25.740 | and then they'll find that out on election

02:05:27.740 | day and, oh, well now, sorry, you

02:05:30.540 | couldn't vote this time.

02:05:31.500 | Remember to re-register next time.

02:05:33.300 | And so do they go, Hey, we're going to

02:05:36.220 | take black people off the voter rolls.

02:05:37.660 | No, what they do is we're having more

02:05:40.340 | issues in these districts, right?

02:05:42.900 | Here's another way they do it.

02:05:44.460 | How many voting boosts do you have in the

02:05:46.980 | area?

02:05:47.340 | So primarily Republican areas will get

02:05:51.060 | tons of voting boosts.

02:05:52.300 | So you don't have to wait in line.

02:05:53.580 | You go in, you vote, you go to work.

02:05:55.980 | No problem.

02:05:56.660 | You're in a black area run in a, in a

02:05:58.980 | Republican state, all of a sudden, Hey,

02:06:01.580 | look, that city, well, we sent you four

02:06:04.780 | voting boosts.

02:06:05.540 | Oh, you got a million people there.

02:06:07.020 | Well, what are you going to do?

02:06:07.980 | I guess you got to wait in line the whole

02:06:09.220 | day, you can't go to work, et cetera.

02:06:11.260 | So that's the way.

02:06:11.860 | I refuse to believe it's the, it's, it's

02:06:15.860 | only the Republicans that do that.

02:06:17.780 | I would say.

02:06:18.620 | So that's why I paused.

02:06:19.860 | Yeah.

02:06:20.460 | That just seems too obvious to do by both.

02:06:23.020 | Yeah.

02:06:24.540 | I know.

02:06:25.100 | No, the Democrats are so weak.

02:06:27.220 | Like they mainly don't do that, but they

02:06:29.100 | do do the third thing, which is gerrymandering.

02:06:31.700 | So both Republicans and Democrats.

02:06:33.780 | Also their favorite flavors of, uh, yeah,

02:06:36.300 | of messing with the vote.

02:06:37.700 | Okay.

02:06:37.980 | Yeah.

02:06:38.660 | So gerrymandering is the best way to rig

02:06:41.820 | an election.

02:06:42.420 | That way the politicians pick their voters

02:06:44.540 | instead of the voters picking their politicians.

02:06:46.380 | Right?

02:06:47.140 | So all these districts are so heavily

02:06:49.980 | gerrymandered that the incumbent almost can't

02:06:52.540 | lose.

02:06:52.940 | They'll push most of the voters into one

02:06:55.860 | district, most of the voters in another

02:06:57.340 | district because they don't want competition.

02:07:00.340 | Right?

02:07:00.820 | So there, then you're screwed.

02:07:04.660 | They, the vote isn't rigged, but the district

02:07:09.900 | is rigged so that the incumbent wins no

02:07:13.620 | matter, almost no matter what.

02:07:15.140 | Right.

02:07:15.540 | So that's why we've gotten so polarized

02:07:18.380 | because the gerrymandering creates like 90%

02:07:21.740 | of seats that are safe.

02:07:22.940 | So they don't have to compromise.

02:07:24.860 | They don't have to get to a middle.

02:07:26.260 | They could just be extreme on either side

02:07:29.020 | because they already locked it up.

02:07:30.300 | Okay.

02:07:31.140 | So that's the number one way to rig an

02:07:32.540 | election.

02:07:33.340 | Now, finally, the last part of it is maybe

02:07:35.820 | the most important, maybe even more important

02:07:37.700 | than gerrymandering and that's the media.

02:07:39.500 | So it just happened to RFK Jr.

02:07:42.820 | It happened to Bernie in 2015.

02:07:45.580 | It happens to any outsider, right or left.

02:07:47.940 | The media, if you're an outsider will say,

02:07:50.620 | well, radical, number one, they don't

02:07:54.580 | platform you, right?

02:07:55.700 | So they're not going to have you on to

02:07:56.900 | begin with.

02:07:57.340 | Nobody's even going to find out about you.

02:07:58.740 | If nobody finds out about you, you're done for.

02:08:01.100 | Right?

02:08:01.940 | So Bernie broke through that because he

02:08:05.820 | was so popular and the rallies were so huge

02:08:09.500 | that he, they could, local news couldn't

02:08:11.340 | help, but cover him, Jesus Christ.

02:08:12.740 | What are all these people doing in the

02:08:13.900 | middle of the city?

02:08:14.500 | Right.

02:08:14.860 | And he slowly broke through that.

02:08:16.740 | But do you know that in 2015, as he's doing

02:08:18.700 | this miraculous run against Hillary Clinton,

02:08:21.540 | nobody thinks he has a chance and here

02:08:23.860 | comes Bernie and he's almost at 48%.

02:08:26.180 | This is, he had seven seconds of

02:08:28.820 | coverage on ABC that year.

02:08:31.220 | They just will not put you on.

02:08:33.420 | That is the number one way they rig an

02:08:35.500 | election, Bobby Kennedy Jr.

02:08:37.220 | sitting at 20% in a primary, no town hall,

02:08:40.380 | 20% is a giant number, right?

02:08:44.220 | And you're not going to do a town hall.

02:08:45.580 | You're not going to do a debate, 12% in

02:08:47.540 | the general election, a giant number in a

02:08:49.580 | general election, no town hall, no debate.

02:08:52.300 | If no one finds out about you, they don't

02:08:55.780 | know to vote for you, right?

02:08:58.020 | If they don't find out your policies,

02:09:00.100 | corporate media rigs elections more than

02:09:02.260 | anything else in the world.

02:09:03.420 | Now, this is something you've been a bit

02:09:06.380 | controversial about, but the general sort of

02:09:08.820 | standard belief is that there's a left-leaning

02:09:10.860 | bias in the mainstream media because as I

02:09:15.340 | think studies show a large majority of

02:09:17.540 | journalists are left-leaning and then that

02:09:21.100 | there's a bias in big tech employees of big

02:09:24.420 | tech companies from search engines to social

02:09:27.180 | media are left-leaning and there that's a

02:09:30.460 | huge majority is left-leaning.

02:09:31.900 | So the conventional wisdom is that there

02:09:34.460 | is a bias towards the left.

02:09:37.140 | Yeah.

02:09:38.140 | So do you think, first of all, I think

02:09:40.100 | you've argued that that's not true, that

02:09:42.820 | there's a bias in the other direction, but

02:09:47.020 | whether there's a bias or not, do you think

02:09:48.460 | that how big of an impact that has on the

02:09:50.380 | result of the election?

02:09:51.420 | Okay.

02:09:52.140 | So let's break that down.

02:09:53.180 | Uh, tech and media are totally different.

02:09:56.340 | So let's do media first and we'll do tech.

02:09:58.220 | So on, uh, mainstream media, corporate media,

02:10:01.260 | and I actually think that right-wing media

02:10:05.540 | like Fox news is part of corporate media.

02:10:07.860 | They just play good cop, bad cop.

02:10:09.260 | And so in, in that realm, the bias is not

02:10:13.300 | right or left except on social issues.

02:10:15.740 | Okay.

02:10:16.140 | So, and that's where that image comes from.

02:10:17.820 | On social issues, yes, the media is

02:10:20.780 | generally on the left and right-wing, sorry,

02:10:24.140 | but like this started in the 1960s and

02:10:26.860 | the right-wing got super mad at mainstream

02:10:28.780 | media saying that black people were

02:10:30.620 | equal to white people.

02:10:31.540 | That's not the case anymore.

02:10:33.260 | Okay.

02:10:33.820 | Right-wing calm down.

02:10:35.100 | I'm not calling you all racist, but in

02:10:37.020 | the 1960s, were there racism?

02:10:38.700 | Was there racism?

02:10:39.340 | Of course.

02:10:40.100 | Of course they wouldn't even let black

02:10:41.260 | kids into the schools, right?

02:10:42.300 | There was massive segregation in the

02:10:43.900 | South, but a lot in the North as well.

02:10:45.580 | And at that point in mainstream media

02:10:47.260 | says, well, I mean, they are citizens.

02:10:49.820 | They should have equal rights.

02:10:51.980 | And the right-wing goes bias.

02:10:54.540 | Okay.

02:10:55.860 | Yeah.

02:10:56.020 | I mean, you're kind of right.

02:10:56.820 | It is a bias.

02:10:57.620 | It is a bias towards equality in that case.

02:10:59.620 | Uh, but it, that is perceived as on the left.

02:11:02.140 | Now, fast forward to today, you don't have

02:11:05.820 | that on the racial issues as obviously as

02:11:08.020 | much as you had it back then, but on gay

02:11:10.540 | marriage that existed for a long time

02:11:13.140 | where the media is like, well, they kind

02:11:15.420 | of should have the same rights as straight

02:11:17.380 | people, right?

02:11:18.060 | And the right-wing went bias, right?

02:11:21.260 | So, okay.

02:11:22.220 | You're kind of right about that.

02:11:23.300 | But at the same time, I would argue

02:11:24.860 | their position is correct, right?

02:11:28.100 | So, but can they go too far?

02:11:30.140 | Of course they can go too far.

02:11:31.260 | Okay.

02:11:31.780 | Now, but that's not the main deal guys.

02:11:34.540 | That's to distract you.

02:11:35.940 | The main deal is economic issues.

02:11:38.300 | And again, we say it ahead of time and you

02:11:40.740 | can see if we're right or wrong, right?

02:11:42.380 | So we will tell folks when we get to an

02:11:45.340 | economic bill, you will see all of a

02:11:47.940 | sudden, the guys who theoretically

02:11:49.300 | disagree, Fox news and MSNBC close ranks.

02:11:52.580 | And you just saw it happen with price

02:11:54.300 | gouging, that issue of price gouging.

02:11:56.100 | All of a sudden there's a lot of MSNBC

02:11:58.140 | hosts, CNN hosts, Washington Post writes

02:12:00.700 | an op-ed against it and everybody panics.

02:12:02.700 | It was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

02:12:04.300 | you can't control anything a corporation

02:12:05.860 | does.

02:12:06.060 | This is wrong.

02:12:06.740 | This is wrong.

02:12:07.460 | Right?

02:12:07.820 | Oh, what happened?

02:12:08.700 | I thought you guys were hated each other.

02:12:10.180 | All of a sudden you totally agree.

02:12:11.820 | Fascinating.

02:12:12.780 | Okay.

02:12:13.460 | Same thing happened on increasing wages

02:12:16.220 | when they were talking about increasing

02:12:17.380 | the minimum wage, Stephanie ruled giant

02:12:19.620 | screed against it on MSNBC.

02:12:21.500 | All of a sudden Fox news and MSNBC agree.

02:12:23.900 | Right.

02:12:24.620 | Do not touch beloved corporations.

02:12:27.060 | So now that gets us to our real bias.

02:12:29.380 | It's not left or right.

02:12:30.900 | It's pro corporate for all the reasons

02:12:33.700 | we talked about before, corporate media,

02:12:35.860 | corporate politicians.

02:12:37.140 | So if you don't believe me today, whether

02:12:39.740 | you're on the right or the left watch next

02:12:43.300 | time, an economic issue, where do they fall?

02:12:45.820 | How do they react?

02:12:47.300 | When anytime it's a corporate, uh, issue,

02:12:50.220 | where does the media go?

02:12:51.340 | Right?

02:12:51.740 | So that's the real bias of the media.

02:12:53.780 | And so since the real bias of the

02:12:55.500 | media is pro corporations, that is not

02:12:58.260 | a left-wing position that is considered

02:13:00.140 | more of a right-wing position.

02:13:01.420 | I even think that's a misnomer because

02:13:03.580 | to be fair to right-wing voters, they're

02:13:05.500 | not pro corporations.

02:13:06.820 | They're not pro big business.

02:13:08.180 | They're not pro corruption, but the

02:13:10.020 | Republican politicians are.

02:13:11.260 | So it gets framed as a right-wing issue.

02:13:13.340 | Right?

02:13:13.980 | So if you think that they, that the

02:13:16.140 | corporate media is too populist,

02:13:18.860 | you just don't get it.

02:13:19.980 | They aren't, they aren't, they hate populism.

02:13:22.260 | So now when you turn to tech, so tech's a

02:13:26.820 | complicated one because yeah, people write

02:13:29.740 | the code, if they're left-wingers, they're

02:13:31.940 | going to have certain assumptions and

02:13:33.820 | they're, they might write that into

02:13:35.140 | the codes or the rules.

02:13:36.220 | And so, but they're also generally

02:13:40.380 | speaking wealthy, they're usually

02:13:43.620 | white, they're usually male.

02:13:45.420 | And those biases also get, go in.

02:13:47.460 | And there's a lot of people on the left

02:13:49.020 | who object to that bias, right?

02:13:50.980 | Okay.

02:13:51.700 | But that's a fair and interesting

02:13:52.980 | conversation and one we have to be

02:13:54.820 | careful of and when we could find them,

02:13:56.460 | hopefully find a middle ground on, but

02:13:58.860 | that's not the major problem.

02:13:59.900 | The major reason why big tech gets

02:14:02.740 | attacked is because they are competitors

02:14:05.500 | of who, social media competes

02:14:08.140 | with mainstream media.

02:14:09.980 | So mainstream media has been attacking

02:14:13.020 | big tech from day one, pretending that

02:14:16.580 | it's a, they're really concerned.

02:14:19.220 | Yeah.

02:14:19.420 | They're really concerned because that's

02:14:21.980 | their competition and they're getting

02:14:23.180 | their ass handed to them.

02:14:24.180 | So I did a story on the Young Turks about

02:14:27.500 | CNN article about all the dangers of social

02:14:31.300 | media, I'm like, guys, this is written by

02:14:35.060 | their advertising department.

02:14:36.380 | Okay.

02:14:36.940 | And they advertise, and they, in fact,

02:14:38.900 | they go to the advertisers and they find

02:14:40.620 | a rando video on YouTube or Facebook, right.

02:14:43.540 | Out of billions of videos.

02:14:44.820 | And they're like, look at your ad is on this

02:14:47.460 | video, do you denounce and reject every

02:14:50.500 | big tech company and every member of social

02:14:52.900 | media and the advertisers is like, shit.

02:14:55.660 | Yeah, I do.

02:14:57.220 | Right.

02:14:57.660 | Meanwhile, they're doing Milf Island on TV.

02:15:01.340 | Okay.

02:15:03.020 | I didn't know that.

02:15:04.060 | There's literally a show that came out

02:15:07.540 | recently where it's moms and their sons

02:15:10.740 | and they fuck each other.

02:15:11.700 | Oh, wow.

02:15:12.740 | Okay.

02:15:13.420 | They don't, they don't have sex with their mom.

02:15:16.220 | They have sex with a different mom or they

02:15:18.940 | date, but then the show is, oh, then they go

02:15:21.100 | off into a corner, et cetera.

02:15:22.620 | Right.

02:15:22.980 | I'm like, you're doing this kind of like

02:15:25.900 | the worst degrading, ridiculous, immoral

02:15:28.780 | programming, and then you found a video on

02:15:31.380 | YouTube that has a problem.

02:15:32.500 | Get the fuck out of here.

02:15:33.780 | You're just trying to kneecap your competition.

02:15:36.420 | Let's talk about the saga of Joe Biden.

02:15:38.820 | So over the past year, over the past few

02:15:41.660 | months, can you just rewind where, where

02:15:44.580 | have you, maybe tell the story of Joe Biden

02:15:48.580 | as you see from the election perspective?

02:15:51.020 | Yeah.

02:15:52.540 | So about a year ago, I, I I'm looking at the

02:15:56.460 | polling and first of all, I have eyes, right?

02:16:00.500 | And ears.

02:16:01.060 | So whenever I see Biden, I'm like, this is a

02:16:03.460 | disaster, and then I go and talk to real people.

02:16:06.700 | And when I say real people, I mean, not in

02:16:09.100 | politics, that's not their job, right?

02:16:10.700 | Because people involved in politics for media

02:16:12.580 | have a certain perspective and it's colored

02:16:16.460 | by all of the exchanges in mainstream media,

02:16:19.740 | social media, et cetera.

02:16:20.660 | Real people aren't on Twitter having political

02:16:25.140 | fights, they're not watching CNN religiously,

02:16:28.420 | et cetera.

02:16:28.900 | Whenever I was at a barbecue, you guys all

02:16:30.780 | Democrats and some barbecues.

02:16:32.540 | Yeah.

02:16:33.020 | Uh, what do you guys think of Joe Biden?

02:16:34.780 | Like almost in unison, too old.

02:16:38.900 | Every real person said too old.

02:16:41.180 | So I look at what real people are saying.

02:16:43.420 | That's why I thought Trump was going to win in

02:16:44.740 | 2016, I go in the middle of Ohio, I can't see

02:16:47.460 | a Hillary Clinton sign for hundreds of miles.

02:16:49.540 | Right.

02:16:49.940 | It's Trump paraphernalia everywhere, right?

02:16:53.380 | So that's not end all be all, you could say

02:16:56.060 | it's anecdotal, but you begin to collect data

02:16:58.020 | points, right?

02:16:58.900 | But then the real data points are in polling.

02:17:01.420 | Okay.

02:17:02.140 | So now I'm looking at Biden polling.

02:17:03.500 | He's in the thirties, no incumbent in the

02:17:07.300 | thirties has ever come back to win.

02:17:08.980 | So I'm like, it's already over.

02:17:11.540 | Then all of a sudden, Oh my God, Trump

02:17:13.900 | takes the lead with Latinos.

02:17:15.540 | It's, it's double over by the later in the

02:17:19.180 | process, Trump took the lead with young voters.

02:17:21.980 | I'm like, this is the most over election in

02:17:24.420 | history and Democrat cannot win if they're

02:17:28.020 | not winning young voters.

02:17:29.380 | That's impossible.

02:17:30.980 | Trump's cutting into his lead with black

02:17:32.740 | voters, this thing is over.

02:17:35.620 | Right.

02:17:36.060 | And I go tell people and they're like,

02:17:38.500 | you're crazy.

02:17:39.340 | Why do they think I'm crazy?

02:17:41.020 | Cause MSNBC is lying to them 24/7 telling

02:17:44.100 | them that Joe Biden, uh, created sliced

02:17:47.380 | bread and the wheel and fire.

02:17:49.460 | And by the, and my favorite talking point

02:17:52.140 | was he's a dynamo behind the scenes.

02:17:54.580 | Yeah.

02:17:56.100 | I'm like, okay, let me get this right.

02:17:57.500 | It's like an SNL skit.

02:17:58.580 | Right.

02:17:59.340 | I'm like, so behind the scenes is like,

02:18:01.740 | all right, Sally, get me the memo on that.

02:18:03.420 | And we're okay.

02:18:03.900 | We're going to do this.

02:18:04.580 | And I'm in command of the material.

02:18:05.740 | Then he goes in front of the cameras.

02:18:07.020 | Anyways, why would any politician do that?

02:18:11.060 | Why, why would they be terrible in front

02:18:13.860 | of the camera and great off camera?

02:18:15.700 | That doesn't make any sense.

02:18:16.660 | But once you get people enough propaganda

02:18:20.260 | and MSNBC created blue maca, right.

02:18:23.180 | They'll believe anything.

02:18:24.380 | So they believe that Biden was dynamic

02:18:26.940 | and young and that he was the best

02:18:30.260 | possible candidate to beat Donald Trump.

02:18:32.020 | When in reality, he was about the only

02:18:34.180 | Democrat who couldn't beat Donald Trump.

02:18:35.900 | So number one, I don't cosign on a bullshit.

02:18:39.980 | I don't care which side you're on.

02:18:41.820 | Number two, as you heard earlier, I

02:18:45.660 | can't have Trump winning.

02:18:46.660 | It endangers the country.

02:18:47.900 | It endangers our constitution, et cetera.

02:18:50.380 | So I'm going to do something about it.

02:18:52.660 | And so I start something called the

02:18:54.540 | Operation Hope on the Young Turks.

02:18:56.940 | And we asked the audience, what should we do?

02:18:59.740 | Right.

02:19:00.100 | So there's different projects in Operation

02:19:01.780 | Hope and, but the first project that pops

02:19:03.940 | up is knock Biden out of the race.

02:19:06.780 | Okay.

02:19:07.540 | And so then I ask our paying members on

02:19:10.940 | TYT, I say, guys, you're going to vote.

02:19:13.540 | And then I'm going to do what you tell me to do.

02:19:15.180 | If you say, no, I like Biden, or I think

02:19:17.700 | Biden's the best candidate, or even if he

02:19:20.420 | isn't, we're not going to be able to win

02:19:21.820 | on this, so don't do it.

02:19:22.820 | Right.

02:19:23.300 | Should I enter the primary against Biden?

02:19:26.260 | Okay.

02:19:26.620 | 76, 24, go enter.

02:19:30.300 | Right.

02:19:30.700 | I'm a populist.

02:19:32.460 | You tell me to go, you're my paying

02:19:33.820 | members, you're my boss.

02:19:34.860 | I'm going to go.

02:19:35.660 | Okay.

02:19:36.380 | So I enter the primary.

02:19:37.700 | Now I'm not born in the country, so people

02:19:40.100 | are going to freak out about that.

02:19:41.300 | I'm a talk show host.

02:19:42.500 | Like the establishment media despises me.

02:19:47.460 | Right.

02:19:48.020 | So I'm not going to get any air time.

02:19:49.740 | In fact, we consider hiring the top

02:19:52.460 | booking agent in New York.

02:19:55.020 | We talked to him and he says, well, you

02:19:57.260 | know, I'm actually in New York this week.

02:19:58.860 | And he says, I'm going to go talk to those

02:20:00.820 | guys and I'll come, I'll come back to you.

02:20:03.380 | And he was really decent because normally,

02:20:05.660 | you know, he charges a lot, just take the

02:20:08.420 | money, right?

02:20:08.980 | And go, oh yeah, yeah, I'll get you on.

02:20:10.300 | But he was a wonderful guy.

02:20:11.460 | He said, I talked to them, you're banned.

02:20:13.220 | So don't, don't do it.

02:20:14.780 | Like you're not, you're banned at CNN,

02:20:17.340 | you're banned at MSNBC, and I think you're

02:20:19.700 | banned on Fox News, but I'm not sure.

02:20:21.220 | Okay.

02:20:22.460 | So, so long odds, why do you do it?

02:20:26.100 | Because if you think we're going to crash

02:20:28.380 | into the iceberg, you might as well

02:20:30.860 | bum rush the captain's course, right?

02:20:33.180 | I'm lunging at the wheel.

02:20:34.500 | So what difference can I make?

02:20:36.660 | Well, I can make a difference by going on

02:20:38.580 | every show on planet earth and going, he's

02:20:40.820 | too old, he's in the thirties, he has no

02:20:43.260 | chance of winning, no chance of winning.

02:20:44.940 | I go on Charlemagne's show, Breakfast Club,

02:20:47.500 | right, Charlemagne agrees, all of a sudden

02:20:50.060 | we're having buzz and then people go, oh,

02:20:52.340 | Charlemagne said he has no chance of winning.

02:20:54.340 | Then Charlemagne's on the Daily

02:20:56.180 | Show, talks to Jon Stewart.

02:20:57.260 | Jon Stewart does a segment, not, this is

02:20:58.820 | not necessarily causal, but buzz is building.

02:21:01.020 | Right?

02:21:01.420 | So then Jon Stewart does a segment, if

02:21:03.300 | you remember, and people got super pissed

02:21:04.940 | at him, too old, can't win, and all,

02:21:07.380 | and that buzz is building.

02:21:08.340 | Meanwhile, unrelated to us, David Axelrod

02:21:11.900 | and James Carville, and I'm like, guys,

02:21:14.260 | figure it out, who does Axelrod speak for?

02:21:17.620 | The top advisor for Barack Obama.

02:21:20.100 | Who is James Carville the top

02:21:22.020 | advisor for?

02:21:22.780 | The Clintons.

02:21:23.820 | This is the Clintons and the Obama's

02:21:26.100 | sending their emissaries to say, we can

02:21:28.700 | read a poll, he's going to lose, change

02:21:32.180 | direction, so when the debate happens,

02:21:34.620 | we laid the groundwork.

02:21:36.180 | If we hadn't laid the groundwork, debate

02:21:39.820 | would have been the first time that Blue

02:21:41.500 | Maga would have thought, oh, maybe Biden

02:21:43.300 | can't win, right?

02:21:44.500 | But since all of us said it and strange

02:21:47.020 | bad fellows, I loathe Nancy Pelosi, but

02:21:50.380 | she was on our side.

02:21:51.340 | I got a lot of issues with Bill Maher.

02:21:53.100 | He was on our side, right?

02:21:54.660 | I got a lot of issues with Axelrod and

02:21:57.180 | Carville and they were on our side.

02:21:58.580 | So the people who believed in objective

02:22:01.340 | reality kind of independently made a plan.

02:22:04.940 | Let's show people objective reality.

02:22:06.940 | And we did, and we drove them out and

02:22:09.780 | it made all the difference.

02:22:10.980 | So you think he stepped down voluntarily

02:22:13.300 | or was he forced out?

02:22:14.300 | Both.

02:22:16.100 | So again, it depends on what you mean.

02:22:18.020 | So was he forced out?

02:22:19.980 | Of course he was forced out.

02:22:21.140 | You think he just woke up and he's like,

02:22:22.900 | oh yeah, you know what?

02:22:24.420 | Screw my legacy.

02:22:25.820 | I don't want to be a two term president.

02:22:27.140 | I'll just drop out for no reason.

02:22:28.780 | No, we forced them out.

02:22:29.820 | Of course we did.

02:22:30.460 | Right.

02:22:30.820 | And when I say we, I had a tiny, tiny,

02:22:33.220 | tiny role, the people who had the major

02:22:35.020 | roles, Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, and

02:22:37.260 | all those folks, but even they were not

02:22:40.220 | the main driving force.

02:22:41.940 | The number one driving force were the

02:22:43.460 | donors, what is the source of power of

02:22:47.060 | Bernie or Massey, the people, right?

02:22:49.380 | What is the source of power for Biden?

02:22:51.300 | The donors, the donors made Biden.

02:22:53.700 | He is the donors candidate and the donors.

02:22:56.220 | That's why he told the donors, nothing

02:22:58.060 | will fundamentally change that.

02:23:00.380 | Like you can, if you say Lex, no Jenk,

02:23:04.580 | I think you're too extreme that Biden

02:23:06.660 | works for the donors, 98%.

02:23:08.100 | I think he only works for them 80% or 55%.

02:23:10.940 | Fine.

02:23:11.620 | We could have that debate, but you can't

02:23:13.780 | argue that it isn't his source of power.

02:23:16.140 | And you can't argue it anymore, even if

02:23:18.180 | you're going to argue it earlier, because

02:23:19.740 | once the donors said, we're not giving

02:23:21.340 | you any more money, he didn't have any options.

02:23:23.620 | He couldn't, he couldn't go on.

02:23:25.620 | So, but was he forced out at like

02:23:28.260 | knife point or something?

02:23:29.540 | No.

02:23:30.060 | So was it voluntary?

02:23:31.140 | Yeah.

02:23:31.380 | Ultimately, if Biden decided to stay in,

02:23:33.820 | there was nothing we could do about it.

02:23:35.220 | And so he had to voluntarily make that

02:23:37.700 | decision, but he voluntarily made it

02:23:39.740 | because he had no choice left.

02:23:41.580 | Yeah.

02:23:41.940 | I wish he stepped down voluntarily

02:23:45.740 | from a place of strength.

02:23:47.020 | So I think, I think presidents, I

02:23:51.420 | think politicians in general, especially

02:23:54.660 | at the highest levels want legacy.

02:23:56.260 | And to me, at least one of the greatest

02:23:59.060 | things you could do is to walk away

02:24:01.220 | from the, at the top, I mean, George

02:24:03.940 | Washington, to walk away from power.

02:24:05.940 | It's, I think universally respected,

02:24:08.540 | especially if you've got a good speech

02:24:09.900 | to go with it and you do it really well.

02:24:12.620 | Not as some kind of cynical or a

02:24:16.220 | calculator, some kind of a transactional

02:24:18.780 | way, but just like as a great leader and

02:24:21.220 | maybe be a little bit even more dramatic

02:24:23.180 | than you need to be in doing it.

02:24:24.700 | Yeah.

02:24:25.340 | I thought, I thought that would be a

02:24:26.460 | beautiful moment and then launch a, some

02:24:30.860 | kind of democratic process for electing

02:24:35.700 | a different option.

02:24:36.540 | Not only did I agree with you a hundred

02:24:38.820 | percent, I reached one of the, his top

02:24:42.860 | advisors, one of the guys you see in the

02:24:44.380 | press all the time, as in his, in his

02:24:46.940 | inner circle, I never said that before

02:24:49.220 | because we were in the middle of it and

02:24:50.820 | I'm never going to betray anyone's

02:24:52.380 | confidence and I'll never say who's, who

02:24:54.220 | it was.

02:24:54.700 | Okay.

02:24:55.220 | But he was gracious enough to meet with

02:24:58.860 | me as I was about to enter the primary.

02:25:01.980 | And look, it's smart too, because get

02:25:04.460 | information, intelligence, et cetera.

02:25:06.380 | Is this guy going to be trouble or not

02:25:07.940 | trouble, right?

02:25:08.700 | But at least he took the meeting.

02:25:10.500 | And the case I made is exactly the one

02:25:12.620 | you just said, Lex.

02:25:13.540 | I said, if he drops, this is about 10

02:25:15.420 | months ago, I said, if he drops out now,

02:25:17.580 | they build statues of him, right?

02:25:21.020 | The Democrats, if you're a right winger,

02:25:22.700 | you hate him, I get it.

02:25:23.500 | But the Democrats would have said he beat

02:25:26.500 | Trump and protected democracy in 2020.

02:25:28.580 | And he steps down graciously now to make

02:25:31.780 | sure we beat Trump again in 2024 and he

02:25:34.900 | lets go of power voluntarily.

02:25:37.820 | You're he's going to be a hero, an absolute

02:25:40.340 | hero, but if he doesn't, you're going to

02:25:43.580 | force all of us to kick the living crap out

02:25:46.380 | of him and tell everybody he's an egomaniac,

02:25:49.140 | which he is, and he's doing this for two,

02:25:51.460 | so that he could be, if you don't know

02:25:52.980 | Washington in that bubble, if you're a

02:25:55.260 | one-term president, you're a loser.

02:25:57.100 | If you're a two-term president, you

02:25:59.580 | have a legacy and you're historic.

02:26:01.460 | He's running for one reason, one reason

02:26:03.940 | only, my legacy, I will be a two-term

02:26:08.060 | president, I will be considered historic.

02:26:09.860 | I'm like, brother, now you're going to

02:26:12.300 | be considered the villain, the villain of

02:26:14.300 | the story, you're handing it right back to

02:26:15.940 | Trump, you're not going to win.

02:26:17.540 | And you know, look at the numbers, any

02:26:20.100 | political professional knows you're not

02:26:22.020 | going to win.

02:26:22.420 | So you have hero or villain and you get

02:26:25.380 | to choose, but if you think you're going

02:26:26.700 | to be a hero and beat Trump, that is not

02:26:28.580 | a choice you have.

02:26:29.340 | That is not going to happen.

02:26:30.380 | And they didn't believe us, but by

02:26:32.740 | then they did.

02:26:34.540 | Were you troubled by the, um, how

02:26:37.620 | Kamala Harris was selected after you

02:26:40.620 | stepped down?

02:26:41.140 | Yes and no.

02:26:41.940 | So I argued for an open convention.

02:26:45.780 | And so if Biden had stepped down when we

02:26:49.940 | were trying to get people into the primary,

02:26:53.020 | knock him out, then it would, that would

02:26:55.020 | have been a perfect solution.

02:26:56.060 | Then all the governors could go in,

02:26:57.820 | Walls, Beshear, Whitmer, Kamala Harris

02:27:00.860 | goes in, obviously they have a real

02:27:02.380 | primary at that point, me later, Dean

02:27:05.340 | Phillips came in, me, Dean, and I mean,

02:27:07.860 | Mary, I wouldn't drop out.

02:27:08.740 | Me and Dean would definitely drop out

02:27:10.260 | because our whole point was get other

02:27:11.900 | people in the race, make sure we win.

02:27:13.460 | Right.

02:27:13.900 | So, okay.

02:27:15.420 | Then you would have had a great primary.

02:27:17.060 | It would have been the right way to do

02:27:18.500 | it, both morally, you know, constitutionally,

02:27:21.140 | et cetera, but also as a matter of

02:27:22.900 | politics, because you would have gotten

02:27:24.140 | a lot of coverage for your young,

02:27:25.900 | exciting candidates, uh, and you would

02:27:28.620 | have legitimized the idea that you're

02:27:30.300 | protecting democracy.

02:27:31.300 | Okay.

02:27:31.740 | So that didn't happen because of

02:27:32.860 | Biden, it is what it is.

02:27:34.180 | So now when Biden drops out, at least

02:27:36.820 | do a vestige of democracy, go to the

02:27:38.860 | commission and do what it's designed to

02:27:40.540 | do, which is pick a candidate.

02:27:42.260 | Ezra Klein made a great case for this in

02:27:44.980 | the New York Times podcast that he did.

02:27:47.220 | That made a huge difference and he

02:27:49.500 | was great for doing that.

02:27:50.460 | So I believe in an open commission,

02:27:52.580 | but I know Democrats.

02:27:54.340 | They love to anoint because they

02:27:56.180 | don't trust the people.

02:27:57.100 | So they think the elites are, uh, geniuses.

02:28:00.660 | Don't worry, we'll pick the right candidate.

02:28:02.340 | Yeah.

02:28:02.740 | I remember when you picked Hillary

02:28:03.980 | Clinton, had that work out.

02:28:05.020 | Right.

02:28:05.740 | And I remember when you said Joe Biden

02:28:07.220 | was the right candidate in 2024.

02:28:08.700 | How'd that work out?

02:28:09.420 | Do not anoint.

02:28:10.420 | Right.

02:28:11.180 | So, but in the end they didn't.

02:28:13.900 | So what happened was Biden does the first

02:28:17.340 | announcement, he either forgot or on

02:28:20.300 | purpose, didn't put Kamala Harris in there.

02:28:22.260 | So there's all this kumbaya now.

02:28:24.340 | Nah, they don't like each other.

02:28:25.900 | Okay.

02:28:26.460 | And Biden's been screwing her over the

02:28:27.860 | entire time she's been vice president.

02:28:30.300 | So he doesn't put her in the original

02:28:32.060 | statement and I'm like, Whoa, I do a live

02:28:34.340 | video immediate.

02:28:34.940 | I'm like, Kamala Harris is not in the

02:28:36.420 | statement.

02:28:36.860 | Right.

02:28:37.140 | In the middle of my video, they put out a

02:28:39.220 | second one going, okay, okay, fine.

02:28:40.980 | Kamala Harris.

02:28:41.620 | Right.

02:28:41.900 | Cause that's too much for the president

02:28:43.900 | not to endorse.

02:28:44.460 | You think he was like really like somebody

02:28:47.220 | like stormed into the room and said, you

02:28:49.820 | absolutely must.

02:28:50.620 | I don't know.

02:28:51.580 | I wasn't there, but probably.

02:28:53.300 | Right.

02:28:54.020 | Or they plan.

02:28:55.060 | I don't know.

02:28:55.580 | But the bottom line is it was glaring that

02:28:58.220 | he didn't put her in the first letter.

02:29:00.060 | Okay.

02:29:00.580 | So he had to put her in the second one.

02:29:02.500 | Fine.

02:29:02.860 | No problem.

02:29:03.380 | But Obama Pelosi is show Schumer did

02:29:07.540 | not endorse Kamala Harris.

02:29:08.940 | That's huge.

02:29:10.980 | Normally the Democrats would all endorse

02:29:13.140 | her and would all say she's anointed.

02:29:15.100 | Shut up everybody.

02:29:16.260 | And then MSNBC would scream, shut up, shut

02:29:19.300 | up, she's anointed.

02:29:20.460 | Right.

02:29:20.820 | But they didn't do that.

02:29:22.340 | So then Kamala Harris had to win over the

02:29:24.980 | delegates and I thought she would win them

02:29:27.300 | over in the convention, but she locked

02:29:29.340 | them up in two days and she, I know,

02:29:31.700 | cause I know delegates cause I ran and the

02:29:33.860 | delegates are calling me saying, she's on,

02:29:35.900 | she's getting on a zoom right now with us.

02:29:37.900 | Right.

02:29:38.260 | She went to all the States and worked her

02:29:40.980 | ass off and locked up enough delegates to

02:29:44.300 | get the, to get the nomination in two days.

02:29:46.980 | Yeah.

02:29:47.340 | But come on, it's Biden endorsed.

02:29:50.540 | Of course.

02:29:51.460 | So why is that?

02:29:52.500 | And of course, why not say, uh, sort of layout

02:29:57.020 | walls and Shapiro and Kamala Harris and the

02:30:00.260 | options that say, let's like at least the

02:30:02.300 | facade of democracy, of a democratic process.

02:30:05.460 | There's what should happen and what is

02:30:08.020 | likely to happen.

02:30:08.820 | So should Biden not have endorsed?

02:30:11.620 | Yeah, of course.

02:30:12.740 | I think Biden should have done the same

02:30:15.260 | thing as Obama and Pelosi and sit, not

02:30:17.140 | endorsed and say, Hey, we'd love to have a

02:30:19.260 | process where we figure out who the right

02:30:20.820 | nominee is.

02:30:21.460 | And at that point, I'm really worried about

02:30:22.860 | Kamala Harris because she's doing word

02:30:24.820 | salads nonstop.

02:30:25.780 | Right.

02:30:26.620 | So I'm like, don't make the same mistake we

02:30:28.620 | did before and just pick someone out of a hat,

02:30:31.180 | test them, test them.

02:30:33.060 | You get stronger candidates when you test

02:30:35.220 | them, the authoritarian nature of the DNC

02:30:38.100 | drives me crazy.

02:30:39.740 | They don't believe in testing candidates.

02:30:42.260 | They don't believe in letting their own

02:30:43.620 | voters decide.

02:30:44.460 | And look, when we were in the primary, they

02:30:46.300 | canceled the Florida election and then, and

02:30:49.420 | they took me, Dean and Marianne off the

02:30:51.300 | ballot in North Carolina and Tennessee.

02:30:52.900 | I'm like, guys, if you're going to make a

02:30:54.540 | case for democracy in the general election,

02:30:57.180 | and you cancel elections in the primaries,

02:30:59.500 | do you not get how ridiculous you look,

02:31:02.940 | how hypocritical you look?

02:31:04.500 | Right.

02:31:05.100 | So I didn't want them to Biden to endorse

02:31:07.500 | anyone, but I'm shocked that they didn't all

02:31:10.900 | endorse her because normally what happens

02:31:13.020 | is they all endorse.

02:31:13.980 | So bottom line Lex is, did she like earning

02:31:18.380 | in a perfect system?

02:31:19.340 | Not even close.

02:31:20.220 | Right.

02:31:20.620 | But did she earn it enough in this imperfect

02:31:23.820 | way where at least she showed some degree of

02:31:26.660 | competence that assuaged my concerns?

02:31:29.380 | Yes.

02:31:30.180 | So, because a normal Democrat would bungle

02:31:33.100 | that, they wouldn't go talk like Hillary

02:31:34.900 | Clinton, wouldn't talk to the delegates.

02:31:36.580 | She would assume that she's the queen and

02:31:39.340 | that they would all bow their heads.

02:31:40.980 | She would, you know, so the fact that she

02:31:42.940 | did elementary politics, correct, for

02:31:46.060 | Democrats, it's like a big win.

02:31:47.420 | It just really frustrated me because, uh,

02:31:51.540 | it smelled of the same thing of fucking over

02:31:55.220 | Bernie in 2015, 16 and RFK and just the

02:32:00.260 | anointing aspect.

02:32:01.860 | Now they seem to have gotten lucky in this

02:32:04.580 | situation that it's very possible that Kamala

02:32:07.020 | Harris would have been selected through a

02:32:08.300 | democratic process.

02:32:09.420 | But I have to say, listening to the speeches

02:32:11.740 | of the DNC, Walz was amazing.

02:32:15.020 | Uh, Shapiro was really strong and Kamala

02:32:18.380 | actually was much better as compared to her

02:32:20.380 | as a candidate previously, but personally

02:32:22.660 | don't think she would have been the result

02:32:24.020 | of a democratic process.

02:32:25.260 | So you don't often give your opinions, but

02:32:27.540 | when you give the opinions, I actually agree

02:32:29.540 | 90, like a huge percentage of the time in

02:32:31.780 | this conversation.

02:32:32.580 | So I fought for Shapiro in the primary and

02:32:35.980 | when she was trying to pick for a VP, cause

02:32:37.860 | I thought there's no way she's going to pick

02:32:39.060 | Walz.

02:32:39.460 | He's way too, not just progressive, but more

02:32:41.860 | importantly populist.

02:32:42.860 | Right.

02:32:43.260 | So I didn't think she'd go in that direction

02:32:45.100 | and Shapiro actually did a bunch of populist

02:32:47.180 | things in Pennsylvania.

02:32:47.940 | That's part of the reason why he's so popular

02:32:49.820 | in Pennsylvania.

02:32:50.620 | He looks like a smooth talking politician,

02:32:52.860 | but his actions are pretty good.

02:32:54.260 | And so Shapiro was great.

02:32:57.300 | Walz was great.

02:32:58.380 | The Obamas are legendary.

02:32:59.860 | Even Clinton at his advanced age makes

02:33:02.420 | terrific points in a speech where you go, well,

02:33:04.860 | that one's hard to argue with.

02:33:06.340 | Right.

02:33:06.820 | And so they all, I'm shocked at the

02:33:10.260 | competence of the DNC, shocked at it, but of

02:33:12.980 | all those likes, so you can give a good speech

02:33:15.860 | and the Obamas give a mean speech, but I saw

02:33:19.220 | Obama as president.

02:33:20.260 | You know, he didn't deliver on that.

02:33:22.220 | So, but the one guy that stood out is Walz.

02:33:26.540 | And the reason is because he's a real person.

02:33:29.820 | Yeah.

02:33:30.140 | Real person, populist.

02:33:31.780 | We all got to work towards picking the

02:33:34.020 | most genuine candidates.

02:33:35.460 | So here, uh, on the right wing side, for

02:33:38.060 | example, I would prefer a Marjorie Taylor

02:33:40.740 | Greene to a Mitch McConnell any day.

02:33:43.220 | Marjorie Taylor Greene is genuine.

02:33:45.260 | She, uh, she might be genuinely Nazi, but I

02:33:48.740 | don't agree with her.

02:33:49.940 | She might be even more right wing than others,

02:33:52.660 | but I believe that she means it.

02:33:54.580 | And I'll take that any day over a fraud

02:33:58.460 | corporatist like Mitch McConnell, who's just

02:34:00.940 | going to do what his donors command of him,

02:34:02.580 | et cetera.

02:34:03.060 | I got to ask you, cause I also love Bernie

02:34:06.380 | still got it.

02:34:07.020 | I love Bernie.

02:34:08.380 | I always have.

02:34:09.140 | Um, I enjoyed his, I think he might still do

02:34:12.140 | it, but I enjoyed his conversations with Tom

02:34:13.860 | Hartman.

02:34:14.380 | He's a genuine one.

02:34:16.140 | Like Bernie, even if you disagree with him,

02:34:18.980 | that's a genuine human being.

02:34:20.380 | Yep.

02:34:21.460 | So just talk about that.

02:34:23.260 | Is it troubling you that he's been fucked

02:34:25.940 | over in 2015, 16, and again, 2020, he seems

02:34:30.380 | to be, and why does it keep like forgiving people?

02:34:34.660 | Yeah.

02:34:35.500 | So I love Bernie for the same reason you were

02:34:39.620 | saying it because he's a real person.

02:34:41.100 | He's a populist.

02:34:41.900 | He means it.

02:34:42.580 | And that is so rare in politics.

02:34:44.540 | He's, I feel like I'm Diogenes and I went

02:34:47.380 | looking for the one honest man and found it

02:34:49.620 | in Bernie.

02:34:50.100 | And so I did a video in 2013 saying Bernie

02:34:53.940 | Sanders can beat Hillary Clinton in a primary

02:34:55.780 | in 2013.

02:34:57.700 | That video exists because why did I think

02:35:01.500 | that I didn't say it of any of the corporate

02:35:03.500 | politicians and the guys who were supposed to

02:35:05.180 | challenge her and stuff because populist and

02:35:08.260 | honest, right.

02:35:09.420 | And the country's dying for an honest

02:35:11.540 | populist dying for it.

02:35:12.860 | Right.

02:35:13.700 | So love the brother.

02:35:14.900 | Now that doesn't mean that he's right on

02:35:17.180 | strategy and he drives me crazy on strategy.

02:35:20.860 | So two elements of that, number one in 2016

02:35:24.660 | and in 2020, for God's sake, attack your

02:35:27.940 | opponent.

02:35:28.500 | You said something about Trump that I

02:35:30.540 | disagree with, uh, where I'm defending Trump.

02:35:34.340 | Okay.

02:35:35.020 | You don't like what he did to the public

02:35:37.380 | discourse.

02:35:37.980 | No, I don't mind it.

02:35:38.900 | Because I would, and I'll tell you why.

02:35:41.140 | Yeah.

02:35:42.500 | Because at least he got a little bit past

02:35:45.860 | the fakeness, like he's a con man and he's

02:35:48.300 | a fraud overall.

02:35:49.340 | And he does everything for his own interest,

02:35:50.860 | but at least he doesn't speak like a

02:35:52.580 | bullshitting politician.

02:35:53.700 | Right.

02:35:54.500 | And he's not wrong that you have to bully

02:35:58.180 | your own party to amass enough power to get

02:36:00.700 | things done.

02:36:01.420 | And he showed that that's possible.

02:36:03.580 | So the problem with the Democrats is civility.

02:36:07.220 | So my whole life, they're like, Oh no, no,

02:36:09.420 | no, don't say anything.

02:36:10.140 | Let's lose with civility.

02:36:11.420 | Right.

02:36:12.260 | So for example, in debates, uh, you know,

02:36:15.580 | whether it's on TV, online or whatever, uh,

02:36:18.220 | Democrats or people on the left are always

02:36:20.140 | saying I'm offended.

02:36:21.700 | I never get offended.

02:36:24.300 | No, after I'm done, you're going to be offended.

02:36:27.500 | Okay.

02:36:28.340 | Fight back, fighting back wins.

02:36:31.460 | And we couldn't get Bernie to fight back in

02:36:34.220 | 2020, he, he was one state away.

02:36:36.980 | He won the first three States.

02:36:38.580 | He crushed in Nevada.

02:36:40.460 | All we needed was South Carolina, but in

02:36:42.300 | order to get South Carolina, we all knew

02:36:44.380 | everybody on his campaign, everyone who's

02:36:46.460 | in progressive media, we all knew you've

02:36:48.940 | got to attack Biden.

02:36:50.180 | If you don't, they're just going to tsunami

02:36:53.220 | you, you know, corporate medias and the

02:36:54.740 | corporate politicians are going to run rough

02:36:57.540 | shot over you.

02:36:58.220 | You have to make the case against them.

02:37:00.020 | And so two times, Bernie flinched.

02:37:02.780 | One in 2016 in the Brooklyn debate, they

02:37:05.140 | asked, did the money that Hillary Clinton

02:37:07.500 | taking from the banks affect her votes?

02:37:10.300 | And he said, no, of course it affected

02:37:12.740 | our votes.

02:37:13.340 | Of course it did.

02:37:14.540 | You have to say yes, and you have

02:37:16.260 | to show it and prove it.

02:37:17.620 | The bankruptcy bill, when she was first

02:37:20.180 | lady, she was totally in favor of the

02:37:22.460 | American people and against the bankruptcy

02:37:24.500 | bill because it has the banks, you can't

02:37:27.900 | discharge any debts that the credit, you

02:37:30.220 | know, credit card debt and bank debt, et

02:37:31.900 | cetera.

02:37:32.340 | It's an awful bill.

02:37:33.580 | It's one of the most corporatist bills.

02:37:35.340 | She was on the right side as a first lady.

02:37:37.420 | She becomes a Senator, takes banker money

02:37:39.940 | and all of a sudden she flips over to the

02:37:41.900 | banker side, say it, Bernie, for God's sake,

02:37:44.620 | say it right.

02:37:45.420 | Then in one of the debates in 2020, his

02:37:49.020 | team prepares attacks against Biden.

02:37:52.100 | They're not personal.

02:37:53.860 | They're not like, I, you can sense by now,

02:37:56.940 | if I'm in a political race, my objective

02:38:00.420 | is ripped all the guys face off, right?

02:38:02.580 | Yeah.

02:38:03.300 | Politically, rhetorically, never physically.

02:38:05.780 | Yes, yes, yes, yes.

02:38:06.860 | And so, but I would get it to a point

02:38:09.780 | where they'd think, I don't know if I'm

02:38:11.100 | going to vote for Cenk, but I know I'm not

02:38:12.700 | voting for the other guy.

02:38:13.540 | Okay.

02:38:14.460 | So you got to do that if you want to win.

02:38:17.060 | So they prepare this.

02:38:18.180 | He says, I'm going to do it.

02:38:19.020 | He goes on the podium and doesn't do it

02:38:22.020 | because he can't, he's too damn nice.

02:38:24.900 | He just can't attack the other guy.

02:38:26.740 | Now that's problem number one in strategy.

02:38:28.940 | Problem number two, something you alluded to.

02:38:30.580 | So Biden gets an office.

02:38:32.740 | Bernie thinks they're friends.

02:38:34.100 | They're not friends.

02:38:35.900 | Biden's just using him.

02:38:37.860 | So he uses them to get the credibility and

02:38:40.900 | then he eviscerates 85% of the progressive

02:38:44.940 | proposals that Bernie put forward.

02:38:46.460 | Biden throws away $15 minimum wage.

02:38:48.740 | That was Bernie's signature issue.

02:38:50.340 | Doesn't even propose the public option.

02:38:52.860 | Dumps paid family for no reason.

02:38:55.540 | I can go on and on.

02:38:56.940 | And Bernie co-signs on it because he

02:38:59.060 | thinks he's in an alliance.

02:39:00.740 | He thinks Biden's on his side and he thinks

02:39:03.420 | we're going to get things done.

02:39:04.300 | And to be fair to Bernie, like I said

02:39:06.700 | earlier, Obama got only 5% of his agenda

02:39:08.820 | passed and Biden got 15%.

02:39:10.900 | Okay.

02:39:12.300 | So you're right, Bernie, you got three

02:39:15.020 | times more than under Obama, but you're

02:39:16.900 | wrong, that is not fundamental change.

02:39:19.100 | And without fundamental change, we're screwed.

02:39:21.180 | Uh, let me ask you about another

02:39:24.220 | impressive speech, AOC.

02:39:26.580 | Uh, is it possible that she's the

02:39:29.780 | future of the party, future president?

02:39:32.260 | No.

02:39:33.980 | Uh, so AOC, in my opinion, lost her way.

02:39:37.020 | And so.

02:39:38.220 | In which way?

02:39:40.300 | So it's tough talking about these things

02:39:43.300 | because people take it so personally.

02:39:44.780 | Right.

02:39:45.300 | And, and that's why you'll see very few

02:39:48.620 | politicians on our shows because we give

02:39:51.380 | super tough interviews and the words out

02:39:54.860 | in the street, right?

02:39:55.980 | Like don't go to Young Turks, they'll,

02:39:58.180 | they'll ask you super hard questions.

02:39:59.780 | Right.

02:40:00.260 | So the only couple do it like Ro Khanna

02:40:02.900 | does it, he's brave when we'll get into

02:40:04.860 | shouting matches sometimes in the middle

02:40:06.460 | of bills and stuff, but at least he's there

02:40:08.460 | to defend his position.

02:40:09.380 | I respect him for that.

02:40:10.100 | Tim Ryan, a little bit more of a

02:40:11.700 | conservative Democrat when he was in the

02:40:13.100 | house, he would take, take on any debate,

02:40:15.420 | et cetera.

02:40:15.740 | So there's a couple of good guys that do

02:40:17.340 | it, but generally they don't.

02:40:18.340 | So what this relates to AOC, because when

02:40:21.980 | AOC is running, we do 34 videos on her.

02:40:25.380 | We get her millions of views.

02:40:28.100 | We founded Just Democrats and now launched

02:40:32.540 | it on the show.

02:40:33.300 | Our audience, Ryan Grim documents it in

02:40:36.180 | one of his books.

02:40:37.060 | Our audience raises two and a half

02:40:38.900 | million dollars for those progressive

02:40:41.220 | candidates overall.

02:40:42.940 | Uh, and at that point AOC and all those

02:40:46.380 | Rashida Tlaib, et cetera, they're all

02:40:48.740 | dying to come on a Young Turks.

02:40:50.340 | Makes sense.

02:40:50.820 | I would too, of course, it's not because

02:40:52.220 | it's the Young Turks, any media outlet and

02:40:54.020 | most media outlets, almost all the media

02:40:56.020 | outlets reject them.

02:40:56.940 | We cover AOC more than all the

02:40:59.340 | other press combined.

02:41:00.660 | Right.

02:41:02.380 | And she wins for a number of reasons.

02:41:03.900 | That's one of the reasons, but there's

02:41:05.100 | many others.

02:41:05.660 | And she did a terrific job herself.

02:41:07.660 | Um, she then takes Shoykot and Corbyn,

02:41:12.060 | who were the, uh, Shoykot was a head of

02:41:14.860 | Just Democrats and Corbyn was communications

02:41:17.420 | director for Just Democrats.

02:41:18.820 | Then Shoykot made one of the most brilliant

02:41:21.420 | political decisions in arguably in American

02:41:24.460 | history.

02:41:24.940 | He said, he called me and he said, Cenk,

02:41:27.140 | I'm going to go from head of Just Democrats

02:41:29.420 | to running AOC's campaign.

02:41:31.420 | And I'm like, well, the other candidates

02:41:33.860 | are going to get pissed and you're staking

02:41:35.820 | the entire enterprise on one candidate.

02:41:38.300 | I'm like, Shoykot, I'm not in it.

02:41:40.380 | I'm doing the media arm.

02:41:41.620 | You're, you're in the, in the trenches.

02:41:43.860 | You're the guy making the decisions.

02:41:45.540 | So I'm going to trust whatever you say.

02:41:47.860 | You sure?

02:41:49.060 | And he said, yeah, I'm sure.

02:41:50.780 | So him and Corbyn go over to AOC's campaign.

02:41:54.100 | AOC then wins that miraculous win.

02:41:57.500 | Then she hires Shoykot to be her chief of

02:42:00.260 | staff and she hires Corbyn to be her

02:42:02.420 | communications director.

02:42:03.420 | Within six months, they're gone.

02:42:05.460 | And once they're gone, AOC then goes on

02:42:09.020 | an establishment path.

02:42:10.060 | Okay.

02:42:10.780 | Because why were they gone?

02:42:12.700 | Oh, they insulted one of her colleagues.

02:42:15.300 | Yeah.

02:42:15.820 | That colleague who's a total corporatist

02:42:17.900 | and was selling out one of our policy

02:42:19.860 | proposals.

02:42:20.540 | If you don't call out your own side, you're

02:42:23.100 | never going to get anything done.

02:42:24.820 | But if you call out your own side, you

02:42:27.060 | become persona non grata and it is super

02:42:29.860 | uncomfortable and we couldn't get them to

02:42:32.940 | do things that were uncomfortable.

02:42:34.860 | Now she's going to find that outrageous

02:42:36.940 | and she's going to be very offended by

02:42:39.420 | that and she's going to point to a bunch

02:42:41.500 | of things she did that were uncomfortable.

02:42:43.820 | And to be fair to her, she does, she has,

02:42:46.420 | she's, until that speech, she was pretty

02:42:48.220 | good on Palestine when we desperately

02:42:50.420 | needed it.

02:42:50.980 | She was pretty good on a bunch of issues.

02:42:52.860 | Cori Bush did that campaign on evictions,

02:42:55.980 | et cetera, on the Capitol studs.

02:42:57.220 | That was great.

02:42:58.020 | AOC's original sit-in in Pelosi's office.

02:43:00.780 | That point, we're all still on the same team.

02:43:03.220 | It's a spectacular success.

02:43:05.420 | Me, Corbyn and Shortcut are saying,

02:43:07.620 | do it again, do it again.

02:43:08.860 | Like now don't abuse it.

02:43:10.180 | Like don't be a clown and do it every other

02:43:11.740 | day, but like when it matters, you need to

02:43:14.220 | be able to challenge Pelosi, right.

02:43:16.100 | And in my opinion, she just got to a point

02:43:20.820 | where she got exhausted being uncomfortable.

02:43:23.340 | It's like, it's really hard.

02:43:25.540 | The media hates you and they keep pounding

02:43:28.300 | away and calling you a radical and you're

02:43:30.540 | destroying the democratic party.

02:43:32.300 | You're destroying unity.

02:43:33.980 | So, whereas if you go along, all of a

02:43:37.380 | sudden you're a queen and now all of a

02:43:41.300 | sudden the mainstream media is saying,

02:43:42.620 | oh, AOC, she could be the progress.

02:43:44.980 | I mean, there's some degree to which you

02:43:46.780 | want to sometimes bide your time and just

02:43:49.420 | like rest a bit.

02:43:51.220 | And I think from my perspective, maybe

02:43:53.900 | you can educate me.

02:43:54.700 | She seems like a legit, progressive,

02:43:58.020 | legit, even populist, charismatic, young,

02:44:03.180 | like a lot of time to develop the game of

02:44:07.060 | politics, how to, how to play it well enough

02:44:09.460 | to avoid the bullshit.

02:44:10.940 | I guess she doesn't take corporate PAC money.

02:44:13.340 | That's right.

02:44:13.780 | No, she's still true on that.

02:44:14.980 | So as far as I, just looking in the, over

02:44:18.940 | the next few elections, like who's going

02:44:20.660 | to be running, who's going to be, who's

02:44:22.820 | going to be a real player, she just seems

02:44:25.340 | like an, like to me, it seems like an obvious

02:44:27.340 | person that's going to be in the race.

02:44:29.140 | So while I fight for the ideal, I'm very

02:44:35.620 | practical.

02:44:36.140 | So for example, she wins, and then one cycle

02:44:44.580 | later, after 2020, there's these guys who

02:44:49.900 | want to quote, unquote, force the vote.

02:44:51.700 | And it was a, on the speakership of Nancy

02:44:54.900 | Pelosi, and they wanted to use it to get

02:44:58.100 | Medicare for all.

02:44:58.820 | I'm like, guys, forcing a vote is a terrific

02:45:01.180 | idea on the speakership.

02:45:05.260 | Okay.

02:45:06.220 | Who's your alternative?

02:45:07.460 | Oh, we don't have an alternative already.

02:45:09.140 | Giant red flag.

02:45:09.980 | Okay.

02:45:10.660 | Um, what's the issue you're looking to have

02:45:14.260 | them vote on Medicare for all?

02:45:15.580 | Oh, you don't know politics.

02:45:17.220 | So I love Medicare for all, we have to get

02:45:20.340 | Medicare for all, but if you, if that's the

02:45:23.940 | first one you put up without gaining any

02:45:25.900 | leverage, you're going to get slaughtered.

02:45:27.860 | Put up something easy, force a vote on $15

02:45:31.940 | minimum wage, or pick another one that's

02:45:33.700 | easy, paid family leave.

02:45:34.780 | These are all polling great because if you

02:45:37.180 | force a vote on that, you could actually win.

02:45:39.340 | And if you win, you gain leverage.

02:45:41.980 | And then you do the next one and the next

02:45:43.620 | one, and then you do Medicare for all, not

02:45:46.020 | bullshit gradualism that the corporate

02:45:48.340 | Democrats do, but actually strategically

02:45:51.060 | practically building up power and leverage

02:45:53.340 | and using it at the right times.

02:45:55.060 | So if I thought that's what AOC was doing,

02:45:57.660 | I would love it.

02:45:58.620 | Right?

02:45:59.340 | So I don't need her to force a vote on

02:46:01.220 | Medicare for all.

02:46:02.100 | I don't need her to go on some wild

02:46:04.140 | tangents that don't make any sense and is

02:46:07.060 | only going to diminish your power.

02:46:08.380 | But when they eviscerated all the progressive

02:46:12.820 | proposals and build back better, how did that

02:46:16.300 | happen, Manchin and Sinema used every ounce

02:46:19.780 | of leverage they had.

02:46:20.780 | They said, I'm just not going to vote for it.

02:46:22.940 | I don't care.

02:46:23.660 | Okay.

02:46:24.300 | Uh, you know, the status quo is perfect

02:46:26.620 | for my donors, so I don't need you.

02:46:28.020 | I vote no.

02:46:29.300 | Okay.

02:46:29.940 | Now take out everything I want.

02:46:31.540 | And Biden did, right?

02:46:33.900 | Progressives had to push back and say,

02:46:37.660 | here is two to three proposals, right?

02:46:43.020 | Not everything, not everything, two to

02:46:45.060 | three proposals, they all pull over 70%.

02:46:48.420 | They're all no brainers.

02:46:50.420 | And they're all things that Joe Biden promised.

02:46:52.620 | We want those in the bill.

02:46:54.700 | Otherwise we're voting no.

02:46:55.820 | At that point, the media, what would have

02:46:58.180 | happened is the media would have exploded

02:47:00.380 | and they would have said AOC and the rest

02:47:02.260 | are the scum of the earth.

02:47:03.900 | They're ruining the democratic party.

02:47:05.860 | We're not going to get the bill.

02:47:07.420 | They're the worst.

02:47:08.540 | You have to withstand that.

02:47:10.780 | If you cannot withstand a nuclear blast

02:47:13.140 | for mainstream media, you're not the person

02:47:15.620 | because you, that's, you have to run that

02:47:18.060 | obstacle course to get to change.

02:47:20.060 | If they had stood their ground, they

02:47:22.500 | definitely would have won on one to two of

02:47:24.700 | those issues.

02:47:25.460 | Instead, they went with a strategy that

02:47:28.140 | was called, it was literally called trust Biden.

02:47:31.140 | All right.

02:47:32.420 | So, uh, big question.

02:47:34.340 | Who wins, uh, who wins this election?

02:47:36.740 | Kamala or Trump?

02:47:38.620 | And what's Kamala's path to victory?

02:47:41.660 | And, uh, if you can steal man, what's

02:47:43.700 | Trump's path to victory?

02:47:44.820 | Yeah.

02:47:45.340 | So there's not enough information yet.

02:47:47.860 | So since I make a lot of predictions on air

02:47:52.100 | and then brag about it unbearably, um,

02:47:55.140 | people are always, they'll stop me in the

02:47:59.460 | streets and they'll be like, predict this,

02:48:00.740 | like predict my marriage, brother.

02:48:02.500 | I don't know anything about your marriage.

02:48:03.780 | How could I possibly predict something

02:48:05.500 | without having any information?

02:48:06.980 | So in the case of the, uh, this campaign,

02:48:10.260 | uh, right now I got Kamala Harris at 55%

02:48:13.100 | chance of winning.

02:48:13.700 | Okay.

02:48:14.220 | Which is not bad.

02:48:15.060 | Doesn't mean she's going to win by 55,

02:48:16.940 | because then that wouldn't be a 10 point

02:48:18.260 | margin.

02:48:18.500 | That's not going to happen.

02:48:19.220 | Right.

02:48:19.540 | But I say around 51 to 55, but it's nowhere

02:48:24.140 | near over because of a lot of things.

02:48:26.660 | One, uh, the Democrats are still seen as

02:48:28.780 | more establishment and, and people hate

02:48:31.700 | the establishment.

02:48:32.380 | Uh, two, if war breaks out in the Middle

02:48:36.580 | East, which is now unfortunately bordering

02:48:39.980 | on likely, right.

02:48:41.220 | Uh, if that war breaks out, all bets are off.

02:48:44.460 | Do you mean a regional war?

02:48:45.940 | Yeah.

02:48:46.740 | Like Iran, Israel gets to be a real thing,

02:48:50.940 | not just a pinprick and a little bombing

02:48:53.780 | here and an assassination there, but no,

02:48:55.940 | we're going to war, right?

02:48:57.180 | If that happens, then all bets are off and

02:48:59.740 | no one has any idea who's going to win.

02:49:01.220 | Okay.

02:49:01.820 | And if they're pretending that they know

02:49:03.180 | that's ridiculous, cause it's so unpredictable.

02:49:06.460 | Uh, and then the third bogey for her is if

02:49:12.500 | she goes back to where it sounds so that, so

02:49:16.420 | there's three phases of Kamala Harris's career.

02:49:19.460 | She's not necessarily any different

02:49:21.820 | in terms of policy.

02:49:22.780 | She's, you can frame it in a bad way.

02:49:25.300 | You could frame it in a good way.

02:49:26.380 | You can say, oh, she's just changed seeing

02:49:29.540 | which way the wind is blowing.

02:49:30.820 | And then, oh, she's a tough cop prosecutor.

02:49:33.540 | Oh.

02:49:33.780 | And then she's doing justice reform when

02:49:35.340 | you need, people want justice reform.

02:49:37.380 | Oh, she's a waffler.

02:49:39.020 | Right.

02:49:39.340 | Or you could paint it as she's pretty balanced.

02:49:42.060 | Right.

02:49:42.540 | She prosecuted serious criminals very harshly,

02:49:46.180 | but then on marijuana possession, got them

02:49:48.740 | into rehab and you know what, that's actually

02:49:51.700 | what you should do.

02:49:52.420 | Right.

02:49:52.860 | So I'm not talking about policy.

02:49:55.420 | So there you could have one of those

02:49:57.100 | views about Kamala Harris.

02:49:58.420 | And I get it.

02:49:58.940 | I'm talking about strategic stylistically.

02:50:02.220 | So Kamala Harris until the second debate in

02:50:07.540 | the primaries in 2020 is a very competent

02:50:11.180 | politician who's in line to be the next Obama.

02:50:14.500 | Right.

02:50:15.460 | She's killing it.

02:50:16.540 | District attorney, attorney general, Senator.

02:50:20.220 | Um, and then the first debate, if you

02:50:22.820 | remember, she won, she had that great line

02:50:25.260 | about the, you know, uh, there was a little

02:50:28.420 | girl on that bus that was integrating the

02:50:30.900 | schools and that girl was me and Biden being

02:50:34.260 | the knucklehead that he is he's caught on

02:50:35.820 | tape going, don't have that reaction brother.

02:50:40.420 | Okay.

02:50:41.460 | Cause she's criticizing his segregation

02:50:43.180 | policy on buses back in the seventies.

02:50:44.900 | Right.

02:50:45.140 | So anyways, so she's doing terrific.

02:50:48.460 | And then after that debate, until Biden

02:50:52.820 | drops out, is it disaster area for Kamala

02:50:56.980 | Harris's career in the primary, she starts

02:50:59.700 | falling apart, she can't strategize.

02:51:02.540 | Right.

02:51:02.900 | She's for Medicare for all.

02:51:04.060 | No, she's not.

02:51:04.540 | She's for Medicare for some what's

02:51:06.260 | Medicare for some, I don't know.

02:51:07.580 | Right.

02:51:08.260 | And she goes into the next debate and

02:51:10.140 | Tulsi Gabbard kicks her ass and then goes

02:51:12.020 | into the third debate, gets her ass kicked

02:51:13.780 | again, and she's starting to drift away.

02:51:15.780 | Then at this point, this is funny.

02:51:18.700 | Um, I have more votes for president

02:51:21.140 | than Kamala Harris does because Kamala

02:51:23.900 | Harris dropped out before Iowa, because

02:51:26.180 | that's how much of a disaster her campaign

02:51:28.060 | turned into when she was leading.

02:51:30.500 | She was leading.

02:51:31.700 | Right.

02:51:32.140 | So then she becomes vice president and

02:51:34.860 | Biden, probably because of that bus line,

02:51:37.500 | Jill Biden caught tremendous feelings

02:51:40.020 | over that line.

02:51:40.660 | Okay.

02:51:41.260 | So Biden's like, here, have this

02:51:43.980 | albatross around your neck.

02:51:45.340 | It's called immigration.

02:51:46.580 | Good luck.

02:51:47.180 | I'm not going to do anything about it.

02:51:48.860 | I'm not going to change policy, but I'm

02:51:50.580 | putting you in charge of it to get

02:51:51.780 | your ass handed to you.

02:51:52.660 | Okay.

02:51:53.260 | And she does.

02:51:54.140 | So that's a disaster.

02:51:55.500 | And then she starts doing interviews

02:51:57.340 | where she's like, we have to become the

02:52:00.860 | chain, the being, but not the thing we

02:52:02.980 | were and the unbecoming.

02:52:04.620 | And you're like, what is going on?

02:52:06.380 | Why can neither one of them speak?

02:52:08.540 | And so, but then the third act shocks me.

02:52:14.700 | So Biden steps down, she goes, grabs

02:52:17.740 | all those delegates in a super competent

02:52:19.460 | way that we talked about earlier.

02:52:20.740 | And then she goes out and gives a speech.

02:52:22.820 | I'm like, oh, that speech is good.

02:52:24.140 | Okay.

02:52:25.180 | If you had another one, another one.

02:52:26.740 | I'm like, wait a minute.

02:52:27.380 | These are good speeches.

02:52:28.420 | No more word salads.

02:52:29.580 | Then she picks Tim Walz and shocks the world.

02:52:32.860 | I'm like, that's a correct VP pick.

02:52:35.340 | That is a miracle.

02:52:37.100 | Right?

02:52:37.540 | And then she goes and does the economically

02:52:39.820 | populist plan, all those proposals about

02:52:43.300 | housing that people care about, grocery

02:52:44.980 | prices that people care about, real or not

02:52:47.460 | real, that is correct political strategy.

02:52:50.100 | So this Kamala Harris is back to their

02:52:53.140 | original Kamala Harris, who was a very

02:52:56.180 | competent, skilled politician.

02:52:58.100 | And as I was telling you offline, she's

02:53:00.940 | doing, whoever's doing her TikTok is, is

02:53:04.980 | like blowing up and they're doing risky,

02:53:07.460 | edgy stuff.

02:53:08.700 | Yes.

02:53:09.460 | I did not expect that from somebody that

02:53:11.700 | kind of comes from the Biden camp of just

02:53:14.340 | like, be safe, be boring, all this kind of stuff.

02:53:16.780 | So you have to give Kamala Harris ultimate

02:53:18.540 | credit because she's the leader of the

02:53:20.100 | campaign and she makes the final decisions.

02:53:22.300 | But there's, there's apparently a couple

02:53:25.220 | of people inside that campaign that are

02:53:26.980 | ass kickers and they're, and they have

02:53:29.340 | convinced her to take risk, which Democrats

02:53:31.780 | never take, and it is correct to take risk.

02:53:34.780 | You cannot get to victory without risk.

02:53:36.900 | So, um, the vice president pick was, is

02:53:41.140 | the bellwether.

02:53:41.780 | When Hillary Clinton picked Tim Kaine, I

02:53:44.780 | said, that's it, she's going to lose because

02:53:46.940 | Tim Kaine is playing prevent defense.

02:53:48.940 | He's, he's, he's wallpaper.

02:53:51.340 | I mean, he'd be lucky to be wallpaper.

02:53:52.660 | He's just a white wall, right?

02:53:53.820 | He's just, and when he speaks as white noise,

02:53:56.380 | he never says anything interesting.

02:53:57.900 | He's the most boring pick of all time.

02:53:59.500 | That's saying we already won.

02:54:00.980 | Ha ha.

02:54:01.460 | Okay.

02:54:02.140 | If Kamala Harris had picked Mark Kelly,

02:54:04.820 | that's the Tim Kaine equivalent.

02:54:06.620 | Okay.

02:54:07.580 | Oh, he's an astronaut.

02:54:08.700 | I don't give a shit that he's an astronaut.

02:54:10.060 | What is he saying?

02:54:11.100 | Is he a good politician?

02:54:12.500 | Does he have good policies?

02:54:13.980 | Is he exciting on the campaign trail?

02:54:16.220 | Is he going to add to your momentum?

02:54:18.660 | Mark Kelly, he might be a good guy, but number

02:54:21.820 | one, he's a very corporate Democrat.

02:54:23.860 | And number two, it's like watching grass grow.

02:54:28.060 | Oh, he's terrible at speaking.

02:54:29.820 | If you ask me, right.

02:54:30.740 | So, so I thought for sure, she's going to

02:54:32.580 | pick Mark Kelly because that's what a normal

02:54:35.380 | Democrat does, or if they want to go wild

02:54:37.420 | and crazy, they'll go to Bashir.

02:54:38.980 | So I was like, please let it be Shapiro

02:54:41.900 | because he's at least not bad.

02:54:44.140 | He's done some populous things and he's

02:54:45.820 | strategic, he's really smart.

02:54:47.140 | I need smart candidates.

02:54:48.860 | Dumb candidates don't help.

02:54:50.300 | They don't have a mind of their own.

02:54:51.420 | They can't take risks.

02:54:52.700 | They're not independent thinkers.

02:54:54.060 | They're, they're going to lose.

02:54:55.180 | So she picks the smartest, most populous

02:54:57.460 | candidate, boom, boom.

02:54:58.340 | We got a winner.

02:54:58.940 | That's a good campaign.

02:55:00.180 | Uh, speaking of risks, when they debate,

02:55:04.260 | when Kamala and Trump debate, what do you

02:55:07.780 | think that's going to look like?

02:55:09.020 | Who do you think is going to win?

02:55:10.900 | Oh, that's not close.

02:55:13.260 | Kamala Harris will win.

02:55:14.100 | Yeah.

02:55:14.780 | Unless she falls apart, unless she goes

02:55:16.900 | back to the bad era, right.

02:55:18.700 | That's risk number three.

02:55:19.860 | Well, hold on a second for, oh, I guess

02:55:21.860 | in a debate, you don't have, you can have

02:55:23.900 | pre-written, it seems like when she's

02:55:26.300 | going off the top of her head is when the

02:55:27.860 | word, word salad sometimes comes out.

02:55:29.780 | Sometimes.

02:55:30.620 | Yeah, we'll have to see, right.

02:55:31.940 | We'll have to see, because she hasn't

02:55:33.020 | done any tough interviews.

02:55:34.220 | She hasn't really been challenged.

02:55:36.100 | So I hope to God that doesn't happen.

02:55:38.900 | That she doesn't fall apart, you mean?

02:55:40.460 | Yeah.

02:55:40.740 | Cause I hope she does a bunch of interviews, right?

02:55:42.700 | Oh, definitely.

02:55:43.340 | Definitely.

02:55:43.780 | I'm like, I'm, this is going to sound

02:55:48.060 | really funny, I'm too honest.

02:55:49.500 | But, but I am like in, in the context

02:55:52.060 | of Kamala Harris probably shouldn't

02:55:53.620 | come on The Young Turks.

02:55:54.500 | We do a really tough interview

02:55:56.260 | and it would hurt her.

02:55:56.860 | Okay.

02:55:57.580 | Do you though?

02:55:58.500 | Like it's tough, but like, you're pretty

02:56:00.780 | respectful.

02:56:01.500 | Maybe I just have my sort of, uh, uh, like

02:56:05.540 | I'm okay with a little bit of tension.

02:56:07.660 | You're pretty respectful.

02:56:08.780 | Even when you're yelling, there's like

02:56:09.980 | respect, like you, you don't do, uh, uh,

02:56:14.940 | like a gotcha type thing.

02:56:16.660 | There's certain things you could do.

02:56:18.540 | Like you said this in the past, you can

02:56:21.740 | say a line from the past that's out of

02:56:23.860 | context, uh, it forces the other person

02:56:27.860 | to have to define the content.

02:56:29.060 | You just get, you know, sort of debate

02:56:30.900 | type tactics, uh, over and over it.

02:56:33.700 | Like, you don't seem to do that.

02:56:34.940 | You just like ask them questions

02:56:36.740 | genuinely, and then you argue the point.

02:56:38.740 | And then you also like hear what they say.

02:56:41.100 | The only thing I've seen you do sometimes

02:56:43.060 | tough that you sometimes like interrupt,

02:56:44.700 | like you speak over the person if they

02:56:46.940 | are trying to do the same.

02:56:48.420 | Right, only if they're filibustering.

02:56:49.860 | Yeah, if they're filibustering.

02:56:51.460 | But like that, that's a tricky one.

02:56:53.060 | That's um, yeah, that's a tricky one.

02:56:54.460 | Right.

02:56:54.700 | No, but Lex, the problem for her coming

02:56:58.180 | on our show, isn't that we would be unfair

02:57:00.340 | to her, it's that we would be fair.

02:57:01.980 | So we would ask questions she is going

02:57:05.260 | to have trouble answering.

02:57:06.220 | Other corporate, corporate stuff.

02:57:07.620 | Right.

02:57:08.300 | I mean, like, so Biden said he was

02:57:10.900 | going to take the corporate tax rate to

02:57:12.380 | 28% and he barely tried.

02:57:15.180 | You say you're going to take it to 28%.

02:57:17.380 | Why should we trust you?

02:57:18.980 | Right.

02:57:19.340 | You guys said $15 minimum wage, and

02:57:21.900 | then you took it out of the bill.

02:57:23.300 | Why should we trust you?

02:57:24.300 | Right.

02:57:25.020 | Those are very tough questions.

02:57:26.580 | She's never going to get that in mainstream media.

02:57:28.380 | Mainstream media is going to have foe

02:57:30.580 | toughness, but in reality, they're going

02:57:32.620 | to be softballs, right.

02:57:34.020 | And so the debates, you're right, Lex, is,

02:57:37.660 | is a little bit easier because Sarah Palin

02:57:39.860 | proved that you could just memorize

02:57:42.780 | scripted talking points.

02:57:44.780 | And she admitted it later.

02:57:46.940 | She's like, she was super nervous.

02:57:49.220 | She memorized the talking points and

02:57:51.140 | no matter what they asked, she just

02:57:52.980 | gave the talking point, which by the

02:57:54.860 | way, people barely noticed because

02:57:57.180 | that's what all politicians do.

02:57:58.300 | She just admitted it.

02:58:00.620 | And so no, Trump's a disaster in a debate.

02:58:05.220 | He's a, he's a one man wrecking

02:58:07.580 | crew of his own campaign.

02:58:09.100 | So any competent debater would

02:58:12.300 | eviscerate Donald Trump.

02:58:13.420 | I mean, they just, on any given topic,

02:58:16.220 | when he says something like here, let's

02:58:19.220 | take one lunatic conspiracy theory that

02:58:22.340 | he just had recently, uh, and by the way,

02:58:25.020 | if you're a right-winger and you keep

02:58:26.220 | getting hurt every time I say he's a

02:58:28.060 | lunatic or I insult Donald Trump, don't

02:58:31.340 | like, you're, you sound like a left-winger.

02:58:33.500 | I'm offended.

02:58:34.140 | I'm offended.

02:58:34.660 | I'm offended.

02:58:35.220 | Get over it.

02:58:35.900 | Get over it.

02:58:36.700 | Okay.

02:58:37.300 | So we, we have disagreements here.

02:58:39.940 | What the other side is saying, and by

02:58:41.580 | the way, I say the same thing to the left.

02:58:43.060 | Okay.

02:58:43.660 | I say you, you think everybody on the

02:58:45.700 | right's evil, you're crazy.

02:58:47.620 | No, they just have a different way of

02:58:49.380 | looking at the world, which by the way,

02:58:50.900 | is an interesting conversation.

02:58:51.900 | We should talk about that in a minute too.

02:58:53.660 | But so I, I do it to both sides, but okay.

02:58:57.060 | But Trump says, oh, I, I don't think

02:59:00.740 | there's anyone at Kamala Harris's rallies.

02:59:03.220 | It's, uh, all the pictures are AI.

02:59:05.380 | Okay.

02:59:06.780 | So let's say he says that in a debate

02:59:08.300 | because he's liable to say anything, right?

02:59:10.260 | You just say, okay, so you think every

02:59:12.860 | reporter that was there, every photographer

02:59:16.180 | that was there, every human being that was

02:59:18.300 | there, they're all lying.

02:59:20.580 | They have a conspiracy of thousands of

02:59:22.700 | people, but none of them were actually there.

02:59:25.340 | Do you understand how insane you sound?

02:59:29.420 | So this is a good place to, uh, can you

02:59:32.500 | steel man the case for Trump?

02:59:33.860 | Yeah.

02:59:34.900 | Yeah.

02:59:35.540 | So Trump is a massive risk because of all

02:59:39.180 | the things we talked about earlier, but

02:59:41.900 | there is a percentage chance that he's such

02:59:44.020 | a wild card that he overturns the whole system.

02:59:46.740 | And that is why the establishment

02:59:48.780 | is a little scared of him.

02:59:49.980 | So if he's in office here, I'll give you a

02:59:53.300 | case of Donald Trump doing something right.

02:59:55.100 | Something wrong first and then something right.

02:59:57.500 | So he bombs, uh, Soleimani, the top

03:00:00.820 | general of Iran and kills him.

03:00:02.100 | That risks World War III, that risks a giant

03:00:05.220 | war with Iran that devolves Iran.

03:00:06.980 | It's four times the size of Iraq.

03:00:08.580 | If you're anti-war, you should have

03:00:10.220 | hated that he assassinated Soleimani.

03:00:12.620 | But after the assassination, Iran doesn't

03:00:16.700 | want to get into it, even though they're in

03:00:18.260 | a rage and they do a small bombing.

03:00:20.340 | You can tell if it's a small or a big one.

03:00:21.980 | Right.

03:00:22.340 | So that's them saying, we don't really want

03:00:24.580 | war, but for our domestic crowd, we have

03:00:26.580 | to bomb you back.

03:00:27.380 | Right.

03:00:27.780 | And that's when the military industrial

03:00:30.620 | complex comes to Trump and says, no, you

03:00:33.980 | have to show them who's tough and bomb this

03:00:36.500 | area and Trump says, no, they did a

03:00:39.940 | small bombing, not a large bombing.

03:00:41.380 | I don't want the war.

03:00:42.300 | I'm not going to do that bombing.

03:00:43.900 | That was this shining moment.

03:00:45.820 | Yeah.

03:00:46.180 | For, for me, one of the biggest steel

03:00:47.980 | man for Trump is that he has both the

03:00:50.940 | skill and the predisposition to not be a

03:00:53.380 | warmonger, he, I think better than the

03:00:58.260 | other candidates I've seen is able to end

03:01:00.020 | wars and, and them that you might disagree

03:01:03.220 | with it, but in a way where there's

03:01:05.940 | legitimately effective negotiation that

03:01:08.460 | happens, like, I just don't see any other

03:01:12.460 | candidate currently being able to sit

03:01:14.380 | down with Zelensky and Putin and to

03:01:16.820 | negotiate a peace treaty that both are

03:01:20.260 | equally unhappy with.

03:01:21.900 | So on the one hand, almost all other

03:01:28.540 | politicians are going to be controlled by

03:01:30.220 | the military industrial complex.

03:01:31.780 | And that complex wants to bleed Russia dry.

03:01:36.140 | And that's what the Ukraine war is doing.

03:01:38.620 | It's a double win for the defense

03:01:41.420 | contractors, number one, every dollar we

03:01:43.540 | spend to you, uh, send to Ukraine is

03:01:45.940 | actually not going to Ukraine.

03:01:47.300 | It's going to U S defense contractors,

03:01:49.740 | and then they are sending old weapons to

03:01:52.060 | Ukraine, the money is to build new weapons

03:01:54.780 | for us.

03:01:55.460 | So a lot of people don't know that.

03:01:57.220 | So the defense contractors want that

03:01:59.460 | war to go on forever.

03:02:00.700 | And they're an enormous

03:02:02.860 | influence in Washington.

03:02:03.980 | The second win is they're depleting

03:02:06.260 | Russia and Russia's gotten themselves

03:02:09.580 | into a quagmire like we did in Iraq and

03:02:11.540 | Afghanistan and they're bleeding out.

03:02:14.340 | So they, the military industrial complex

03:02:17.820 | wants Russia to bleed out for as long

03:02:19.780 | as humanly possible.

03:02:20.820 | They actually care more about their own

03:02:23.100 | interests, of course, than they do

03:02:24.500 | about Ukrainian interests.

03:02:26.220 | So in fact, there's a good argument to

03:02:28.700 | be made that Ukraine could have gotten a

03:02:30.180 | peace deal earlier.

03:02:31.340 | Uh, and we prevented it.

03:02:33.740 | So, but the bottom line now is probably

03:02:38.140 | how a deal gets done is they let go of

03:02:40.220 | three more areas in Ukraine.

03:02:43.180 | They already lost Crimea.

03:02:44.580 | They'd have to let go of three more

03:02:46.540 | regions and that is tough because at that

03:02:50.380 | point, Russia's a little bit encouraged.

03:02:52.500 | Every time they do an invasion,

03:02:54.420 | they get more land.

03:02:55.500 | They might not get all the land they

03:02:57.100 | wanted, but they get a lot of land.

03:02:58.660 | So that's, it's a very difficult issue,

03:03:02.540 | but literally which, which person, if

03:03:06.060 | they become president will end the war.

03:03:08.180 | Trump will end that war because

03:03:10.820 | Trump will go in and he loves

03:03:12.620 | Russia and Putin anyway.

03:03:13.820 | I just disagree with it.

03:03:15.140 | He loves Russia.

03:03:16.340 | The implication of that meaning he will

03:03:19.980 | do whatever Putin tells him.

03:03:21.260 | I think.

03:03:22.820 | He'll do 90% of what Putin tells him.

03:03:24.700 | Uh, I just disagree with that.

03:03:27.100 | I think, uh, I think he wants to be the

03:03:31.500 | kind of person that says, fuck you to

03:03:33.340 | Putin while, while patting them on the

03:03:36.420 | back and being, you know, but out negotiating

03:03:39.380 | Putin.

03:03:39.740 | So I don't like talking about Russia

03:03:41.900 | because there's so much emotions that

03:03:43.420 | go into that topic.

03:03:44.540 | The right wing, the minute you mention

03:03:46.620 | Russia, they're like, oh, it's a hoax

03:03:49.620 | and all this baggage that comes with it,

03:03:52.180 | et cetera.

03:03:52.740 | To me, Russia is not any different than

03:03:54.900 | Saudi Arabia or Israel for Trump.

03:03:57.780 | You give me money.

03:03:59.380 | I like you.

03:04:00.340 | You get by my apartments.

03:04:01.860 | I like you.

03:04:02.580 | Right.

03:04:03.220 | If you don't give me money, I don't like

03:04:05.660 | you, it's not that complicated.

03:04:07.540 | So, okay.

03:04:08.700 | Like, don't worry about the Russia part

03:04:11.540 | of it.

03:04:11.780 | Like the bottom line is Trump thinks,

03:04:15.580 | what do I care about those three

03:04:17.140 | regions of Ukraine?

03:04:18.060 | I want to get this thing done.

03:04:19.300 | Right.

03:04:19.820 | So he'll go and he'll say, Ukraine,

03:04:22.820 | we're going to withdraw all help unless

03:04:24.740 | you agree to a peace deal with Russia

03:04:26.380 | and Russia wants those three regions.

03:04:27.820 | That's the peace deal.

03:04:29.100 | That's it.

03:04:30.700 | So Ukraine will lose a part of their

03:04:32.900 | country and we'll get to a peace deal.

03:04:35.380 | Yeah.

03:04:36.260 | I hope not.

03:04:37.380 | I hope not.

03:04:38.100 | I think Trump sees themselves and wants

03:04:43.860 | to be a great negotiator.

03:04:45.260 | So, and I personally want the death, the

03:04:50.500 | death of people to end.

03:04:51.620 | And I think Trump would bring that much

03:04:53.980 | faster and I disagree with you, at least

03:04:57.980 | my hope is that he would negotiate

03:05:00.780 | something that would be fair.

03:05:02.660 | He's not, his anti-war record is so

03:05:07.060 | complicated because moving the embassy

03:05:11.100 | in Israel and killing the top Iranian

03:05:14.020 | general were super provocative and they

03:05:16.580 | could have easily triggered a giant war

03:05:18.980 | there and then you know what's going to

03:05:20.700 | happen if you get into any kind of real

03:05:22.500 | war, Trump's going to want to prove his

03:05:24.020 | buttons larger.

03:05:24.940 | So then he's going to do massive

03:05:27.100 | ridiculous bombings.

03:05:29.420 | I mean, I worry about nukes.

03:05:30.860 | And so we had Giuliani on the show, on the

03:05:34.060 | RNC and I asked him this question, I said,

03:05:36.180 | you know, I keep saying, oh, they wouldn't

03:05:38.340 | do it if I was in charge.

03:05:39.780 | I'm like, what does that mean?

03:05:41.740 | Cause it sounds like what it means is they

03:05:43.780 | wouldn't do it because they know if they did

03:05:46.140 | it, I would do something insane, like attack

03:05:49.700 | Russia or use nukes.

03:05:52.820 | And Rudy said, yeah, that's what it means.

03:05:55.700 | So that means you have to at least bluff

03:05:58.740 | that and you have to get them to believe

03:06:00.220 | that he's a madman.

03:06:01.340 | That's the madman theory of Nixon and

03:06:03.300 | Nixon, and Rudy said that too.

03:06:05.260 | He was very clear about it.

03:06:06.740 | But the problem is if you get your bluff

03:06:09.140 | called and so if you actually attack Russia,

03:06:12.500 | you're going to start World War III.

03:06:15.020 | So that's why, yeah, if you could, if you

03:06:20.460 | could just get away with bluffing, maybe,

03:06:23.420 | but he's playing a very dangerous game and

03:06:26.900 | he massively increased drone strikes.

03:06:28.660 | On the other hand, he didn't bomb Iran

03:06:31.660 | further, and on the other hand, he started

03:06:33.340 | the process of withdrawal from Afghanistan.

03:06:35.660 | So not black and white, complicated record.

03:06:40.060 | And one thing, I'll give him another

03:06:41.580 | piece of credit here.

03:06:42.380 | I think I'm taking this steel manning too far.

03:06:45.540 | But the credit was that he changed the

03:06:52.140 | rhetoric of the right wing.

03:06:53.820 | They went from the party of Dick Cheney,

03:06:56.140 | war is great, and let's, you know, all

03:07:02.180 | Muslims are evil and so he hates Muslims

03:07:05.140 | too, but that's a different thing.

03:07:06.180 | Right.

03:07:06.780 | But like, oh, we have to attack the enemy.

03:07:09.100 | We have to start wars, et cetera.

03:07:11.300 | To now Republican voters are generally

03:07:13.660 | anti-war and hate Dick Cheney.

03:07:15.260 | Oh, I'll take it.

03:07:16.700 | I'll take it.

03:07:17.380 | So that's a great thing that Trump did,

03:07:18.780 | even if he didn't mean it, even if he does

03:07:21.500 | these provocative things that could lead

03:07:23.580 | to a much worse war, even if I'm worried

03:07:25.820 | that he'll be so reckless, he'll start a

03:07:28.060 | bigger war, at least he did that right.

03:07:30.660 | And so I'm happy to have our, our right

03:07:32.980 | wing brothers and sisters join us in

03:07:35.060 | the anti-war movement.

03:07:36.260 | And, and I'm not being a jerk about it.

03:07:38.940 | Like I love it.

03:07:40.260 | And, and any, and so this is another

03:07:42.940 | thing the left does wrong from time to

03:07:44.300 | time, which is if you agree with a right

03:07:47.180 | wing or 2%, they'll be like, oh, welcome in.

03:07:49.700 | Come on, vote for Trump.

03:07:50.780 | Come on in.

03:07:51.380 | Yeah.

03:07:51.580 | Water's warm.

03:07:52.820 | Right.

03:07:53.140 | If you, if you disagree with the left 2%,

03:07:57.700 | they're like, that's it.

03:07:58.900 | You're banished and you're a Nazi.

03:08:00.180 | Well, brother, how are we going to win an

03:08:02.260 | election if you're banishing everybody there is.

03:08:04.540 | Right.

03:08:05.260 | So hold up.

03:08:06.580 | These Republican voters are coming

03:08:08.340 | at your anti-war position.

03:08:10.780 | Take the win.

03:08:12.380 | No, they're MAGA and I won't deal with them.

03:08:15.460 | Even when they agree with you, that

03:08:18.260 | doesn't make any sense.

03:08:19.340 | That doesn't make any sense.

03:08:20.380 | Take the win.

03:08:21.420 | Right.

03:08:22.140 | So when Charlie Kirk says yes to paid

03:08:23.900 | family leave, when Patrick Bet-David on

03:08:26.060 | his program says yes, roughly says yes to

03:08:28.540 | paid family leave, take the win.

03:08:30.740 | RFK Jr.

03:08:32.540 | You said, uh, some positive things for a

03:08:35.340 | while about RFK Jr.

03:08:36.700 | Uh, and I think you said you would even

03:08:40.020 | consider, uh, voting for him given the

03:08:44.140 | slate of people, this was at the time when

03:08:46.220 | Biden was, uh, still in, um, what do you

03:08:49.780 | think about him?

03:08:50.260 | What do you think about RFK Jr.

03:08:51.900 | As a candidate, as the person, he's been

03:08:54.740 | on the show, right?

03:08:55.420 | Yeah.

03:08:55.740 | Yeah.

03:08:55.820 | So he, he was on our show.

03:08:57.340 | People love that interview.

03:08:58.660 | You could check it out anytime, right.

03:09:00.180 | Um, and, and why do people love it?

03:09:03.580 | Whether they're right or left, because

03:09:05.580 | we're fair, we actually asked him about

03:09:07.580 | his policy positions.

03:09:08.540 | He explained them.

03:09:09.340 | I challenge him.

03:09:10.420 | And then he explains and we give him a

03:09:12.260 | fair hearing.

03:09:12.780 | But I, I knew Bobby a little bit before he

03:09:15.860 | ran when he was an environmental lawyer.

03:09:18.220 | Right.

03:09:18.540 | Uh, and his legal work is excellent.

03:09:22.420 | Um, and, and he's been on the right side

03:09:25.780 | of most of the issues for most of his life.

03:09:28.420 | So a, I like him on that too, on his wildlife,

03:09:33.380 | the dead bear and the worms and all that

03:09:35.700 | stuff, right?

03:09:36.380 | So there's two important lessons you

03:09:39.740 | should get about out of that.

03:09:41.380 | Well, one's just about Bobby, but the other

03:09:43.700 | one's a general one that's really important

03:09:45.140 | for you to know, no matter what you think

03:09:46.780 | of Bobby Kennedy.

03:09:47.940 | On the personal front, I have a friend

03:09:49.620 | that's very similar to him.

03:09:50.740 | In fact, he's one of my best friends.

03:09:52.300 | And, and I know why I, this is my theory

03:09:56.020 | on why Bobby and my friend are, led a

03:09:59.500 | wildlife, both of their dads died young.

03:10:02.780 | When my friend's dad died, he was 18

03:10:05.860 | and his dad died in his arms.

03:10:07.300 | And he has a motto, what is lived,

03:10:10.380 | cannot be unlived.

03:10:11.500 | So if I had a great time and I thought

03:10:15.380 | it was hilarious to dump a dead bear at

03:10:17.140 | central park, then I lived it and I had a

03:10:19.220 | great time and nothing you could do about it.

03:10:21.540 | Okay.

03:10:22.100 | And sometimes that'll get you in trouble.

03:10:25.460 | And sometimes you'll have a fantastic time.

03:10:29.020 | Right.

03:10:29.540 | And, and obviously Bobby's dad was

03:10:33.060 | killed when he was young.

03:10:34.380 | And maybe that got into his head of like,

03:10:36.940 | you better live strong and, and, you

03:10:40.500 | know, live an interesting life.

03:10:42.020 | And so I don't begrudge him that even if

03:10:44.260 | I begrudge some of the things that he did

03:10:46.260 | in that life, I get why he did it.

03:10:48.660 | So I don't hate him like other people hate

03:10:51.140 | him for some of those personal stuff.

03:10:52.900 | Right.

03:10:53.380 | So, and I like him for all the things

03:10:55.340 | that he did positive, holding, uh, you

03:10:57.900 | know, fossil fuel companies accountable,

03:11:00.380 | protecting communities that had poison

03:11:03.180 | dumped into their rivers, et cetera.

03:11:04.780 | Right.

03:11:05.100 | So the thing that affects everybody is when

03:11:08.660 | he gets, like corporate media smeared the

03:11:12.000 | hell out of him and they didn't allow him

03:11:14.620 | to speak, and then they did the needle

03:11:16.700 | in a haystack trick.

03:11:17.780 | So whenever it's an insider, they find

03:11:21.860 | the best parts of their lives and then

03:11:23.980 | they amplify.

03:11:25.900 | So Joe Biden is average Joe from Scranton.

03:11:29.460 | Motherfuckers been in DC for the last 52

03:11:32.100 | years.

03:11:32.340 | You think we don't have eyes and ears?

03:11:33.700 | Okay.

03:11:34.700 | Like average show from Scranton.

03:11:36.820 | Who are you kidding?

03:11:37.900 | So there's a guy named Fred Thompson.

03:11:39.940 | He was an actor and he was a Senator

03:11:41.340 | from Tennessee later.

03:11:42.460 | And he had this great little trick

03:11:44.260 | that he would do is a red pickup truck

03:11:45.740 | that he would campaign with.

03:11:46.820 | Right.

03:11:47.180 | So he looks like a regular Joe, right.

03:11:48.580 | But he's a millionaire actor, but

03:11:51.180 | here's the funny part.

03:11:51.940 | He would drive to the red pickup

03:11:53.540 | truck in a limo, and he would drive back

03:11:57.100 | from the campaign event in a limo, but

03:11:59.220 | the press never reported the limo.

03:12:01.740 | They only reported him in the red pickup

03:12:03.820 | truck as if that's what he drives.

03:12:05.460 | See, that's the theater of politics.

03:12:08.620 | Why?

03:12:09.460 | Cause Fred Thompson was a corporate

03:12:11.860 | Republican, so they loved him.

03:12:13.580 | So they go, yeah, sure.

03:12:14.980 | Yeah.

03:12:15.260 | Red pickup truck.

03:12:16.180 | Oh, good old Fred Thompson.

03:12:17.620 | Right.

03:12:17.940 | So, but if you're an outsider

03:12:20.540 | and they don't like you, then they're

03:12:22.700 | going to look at the haystack of your

03:12:24.020 | life and they're going to try to find needles.

03:12:26.100 | So they've done this to Trump.

03:12:28.420 | They've done this to Bernie.

03:12:29.500 | They've done this to Bobby Kennedy Jr.

03:12:31.580 | Uh, and with, with Bobby, they're

03:12:35.140 | like, Ooh, there's some juicy needles in here.

03:12:37.820 | Okay.

03:12:38.860 | So they find those and they go, you see

03:12:40.900 | this, the only thing you should know

03:12:43.060 | about Bobby Kennedy Jr is that he found

03:12:45.420 | a dead bear and put it in central park.

03:12:47.380 | Uh, Oh, wait, wait, wait.

03:12:48.900 | I found another one.

03:12:49.540 | The other thing you should know about

03:12:51.260 | Bobby is that he once said in a divorce

03:12:53.700 | deposition that he had a brain worm.

03:12:55.620 | That, uh, by the way, it turns out that

03:12:57.540 | affects millions of people and it's

03:12:59.060 | not that big a deal, right?

03:13:00.260 | But look, he is a radical.

03:13:02.700 | Ah, he is.

03:13:03.540 | This defines him completely.

03:13:05.060 | The spectacular case of that

03:13:07.020 | actually happened to me.

03:13:07.900 | So I ran for Congress in 2020 and the

03:13:11.940 | New York times, LA times, CNN, they all

03:13:14.500 | butchered me with needles.

03:13:16.980 | Okay.

03:13:17.940 | So they said, is a long history

03:13:20.740 | of making anti-Muslim jokes.

03:13:22.300 | Well, first of all, they didn't even say

03:13:24.700 | jokes, they said anti-Muslim rhetoric.

03:13:27.220 | I'm like, I'm Muslim.

03:13:30.700 | I mean, I'm an atheist, but I grew up Muslim.

03:13:33.420 | My family's Muslim.

03:13:34.260 | My background's Muslim.

03:13:35.300 | You don't think that's relevant in the story?

03:13:37.980 | And they did it based on one joke I told

03:13:40.940 | about, and they said, oh, I also, of course,

03:13:43.140 | I mean, they say that I'm anti-Semitic.

03:13:45.220 | That's like, that's, you start with that.

03:13:47.220 | That's, that's just baked in for everyone.

03:13:49.380 | Right.

03:13:49.880 | So they said, I had made a joke about

03:13:52.700 | how Orthodox Jews and Muslims, they think

03:13:57.420 | that getting into heaven is a little

03:13:58.620 | bit of a fashion contest.

03:14:00.500 | Okay.

03:14:01.160 | So they, the Orthodox Jews go in there

03:14:03.700 | with a Russian coats from the 1800s and

03:14:05.820 | the giant Russian hat, you know, the

03:14:07.860 | Muslims go in with their robe and the skull

03:14:09.860 | cap and stuff, and God's looking around

03:14:12.700 | going, no, no, no, ooh, nice outfit.

03:14:14.940 | Come on in.

03:14:15.500 | Right.

03:14:16.080 | Like, do you really think the creator

03:14:18.980 | of the universe gives a damn what you wear?

03:14:20.860 | Okay.

03:14:21.800 | So the New York Times took that and

03:14:23.700 | said, long history of being anti-Semitic

03:14:26.060 | and anti-Muslim.

03:14:26.700 | Right.

03:14:27.440 | Okay.

03:14:27.940 | So there's this, oh, this is a famous one.

03:14:30.460 | Relatively.

03:14:32.020 | Right.

03:14:32.520 | I did a joke about bestiality like.

03:14:35.460 | Nice.

03:14:36.400 | A dozen years ago.

03:14:37.420 | Very nice.

03:14:38.580 | So I start out the joke nice and dry and

03:14:40.660 | I go, look, is the horse going to object

03:14:43.260 | if he's the one getting pleasure?

03:14:44.980 | Now, Anna's my co-host.

03:14:46.940 | She's younger at that time.

03:14:48.420 | And she's like, that seems like a bad idea.

03:14:50.980 | I'm like, of course it's a bad idea.

03:14:52.460 | Okay.

03:14:53.080 | But I'm being dry, but some people are

03:14:55.180 | laughing in the studio and stuff.

03:14:56.420 | And then, and then I say, you know, if I

03:14:59.700 | was emperor of the world, I would make that

03:15:01.700 | legal and they cut the tape.

03:15:03.860 | If you watch the rest of the tape, I say,

03:15:06.980 | now would the horse object?

03:15:08.220 | Nah.

03:15:09.300 | So, but they cut the tape.

03:15:13.140 | So the New York, so originally a right-winger

03:15:16.460 | did that and then a, like a, uh, establishment

03:15:19.940 | troll, uh, in that primary started putting

03:15:23.100 | out those tapes to everyone.

03:15:24.620 | Jake Tapper retweeted it.

03:15:26.380 | Didn't look to see if it's edited or not edited.

03:15:29.780 | The New York times implied that bestiality

03:15:32.980 | was part of my agenda.

03:15:34.380 | Agenda.

03:15:35.240 | Jesus Christ.

03:15:36.180 | Please tell me that's part of your Wikipedia.

03:15:38.060 | That, that, that, that, that the bestiality

03:15:41.100 | thing is part of your.

03:15:41.900 | I don't know.

03:15:42.660 | I don't know, but guys, so in that, in those

03:15:46.100 | stories, I'm not important.

03:15:47.740 | And even Bobby Kennedy Jr.

03:15:49.100 | is not important.

03:15:49.780 | What it reveals about the media is what's

03:15:53.020 | important, so they're going to find those

03:15:55.220 | needles, whether it's, and even if they

03:15:57.300 | don't have the needles, you know what, we'll

03:15:58.620 | cut the tape before your joke, uh, joke's

03:16:01.180 | punchline, right?

03:16:02.300 | So we'll just run it and we'll lie about you.

03:16:04.500 | Who cares, right?

03:16:06.180 | And so, oh, they also said that I had David

03:16:10.140 | Duke on to share his anti-Semitic point of view.

03:16:12.740 | If you watch the interview, I told David

03:16:15.580 | Duke, you're an anti-Semite, you're a racist,

03:16:17.860 | you're a bigot, you're an idiot, right?

03:16:19.820 | It was the toughest interview he's probably

03:16:21.620 | ever had in his life.

03:16:22.700 | And other journalists got mad at that part.

03:16:25.580 | And they were like, no guys, you're

03:16:28.060 | just flat out lying.

03:16:29.180 | Like I, I watched the interview.

03:16:31.180 | Did any of you watch the interview?

03:16:32.860 | He takes the guy's head off, right?

03:16:34.660 | And so the New York times issued a

03:16:36.620 | correction on that one.

03:16:37.540 | So they're like, okay, fine.

03:16:39.300 | He was being sarcastic when he said, sure,

03:16:41.860 | you're not racist, Dave.

03:16:43.100 | Well, it's the, one of the sources of hope

03:16:46.820 | to all of this is there's a lot of, uh,

03:16:49.060 | independent media now.

03:16:50.780 | Um, but mainstream media has a lot of power

03:16:54.020 | still and cares a lot of power.

03:16:55.740 | Do you think they're going to die eventually?

03:16:57.500 | Yeah, definitely.

03:16:58.180 | So two things about that that are super

03:17:00.780 | important, first of all, this is why I tell

03:17:03.420 | people to have hope.

03:17:04.100 | I don't believe in false hope, right?

03:17:05.620 | So if you think Kamala Harris is your

03:17:07.820 | knight in shining armor, she's going to come

03:17:09.780 | in, she's going to get money out of politics.

03:17:11.580 | She's going to ignore the donors.

03:17:12.700 | That's false hope.

03:17:13.420 | It's crazy talk, right?

03:17:14.740 | So I, why am I in favor of Kamala Harris?

03:17:17.140 | I'm going to live to fight another day.

03:17:18.380 | I'm worried that Trump's going to end the

03:17:19.540 | whole thing, and then we're not going to

03:17:20.820 | have an opportunity to actually get a

03:17:23.380 | populist win, right?

03:17:24.700 | So, and I'm encouraged by some

03:17:26.980 | of the things she's doing.

03:17:27.700 | Maybe she does even 25% of her agenda, but

03:17:29.540 | I'm not going to give you false hope that

03:17:31.260 | she's your savior, right?

03:17:32.820 | But I believe massively in hope.

03:17:35.020 | And number one, because it's true to, to

03:17:39.100 | the point that we were talking about earlier,

03:17:40.420 | Lex, and how last 200 years have been choppy,

03:17:44.900 | but overall fantastic, terrible things have

03:17:47.580 | happened in that time period.

03:17:48.860 | Some of the worst things that have ever

03:17:49.860 | happened in history, but overall life

03:17:51.660 | expectancy is higher.

03:17:52.820 | Everything is, you know, incomes are higher,

03:17:55.140 | health is better, et cetera.

03:17:56.380 | Right.

03:17:56.700 | So hope is not misplaced.

03:17:58.900 | It's real, it's empirical.

03:18:00.940 | Okay.

03:18:01.780 | So now we talked about how you could get

03:18:04.380 | money out of politics and that's a legitimate

03:18:06.060 | hope, but media is another place where

03:18:10.260 | we have huge hope.

03:18:11.340 | So of all the corporate robots, the most

03:18:14.500 | important robot is media.

03:18:16.220 | So when mainstream media has you hooked

03:18:19.860 | in at the back of your neck, you're going

03:18:21.940 | to believe all these fairy tales about how

03:18:24.140 | politicians are nice people, and they're

03:18:26.100 | trying to do the right thing and donor money

03:18:27.700 | doesn't have any influence on them, right.

03:18:29.380 | So once you unplug from the matrix, um, well,

03:18:34.060 | then you begin to see, oh yeah, hey, look,

03:18:35.940 | he took the donor money to do what the

03:18:37.260 | donors wanted.

03:18:37.900 | He took the donor money to do what the donors

03:18:39.380 | want, 98% of the time, right.

03:18:41.100 | So then you see clearly, so now what's

03:18:44.580 | happening at large, mainstream media is

03:18:47.660 | losing their power and now online media

03:18:51.380 | swarming, swarming, swarming, swarming.

03:18:53.980 | And so this goes back to why I started

03:18:56.540 | The Young Turks.

03:18:57.260 | So let me touch on that here and then we

03:18:59.820 | can come back to it if you want.

03:19:00.740 | So in 1998, I write an email to my friends

03:19:05.740 | and I say, online video is going to be

03:19:08.700 | television and unsurprisingly, and they

03:19:12.700 | say, you're nuts.

03:19:14.420 | That's never going to happen.

03:19:15.540 | At that point, we're still doing AOL

03:19:18.020 | dial-ups like, right.

03:19:20.180 | The online video barely exists and

03:19:22.980 | television's mammoth.

03:19:25.060 | I say, guys, it's just a matter of logic.

03:19:27.820 | Like for me, it's, there's so many ironies.

03:19:31.500 | I'm known for yelling online sometimes,

03:19:33.940 | but in reality, I'm obsessed with logic.

03:19:36.540 | So when you have gatekeepers, gatekeepers

03:19:40.700 | pick based on what they want, what the

03:19:42.980 | powerful want, in that case, advertisers,

03:19:44.780 | politicians, et cetera, they are never

03:19:46.740 | going to design programming as good as

03:19:49.060 | wisdom of the crowd.

03:19:49.980 | When people start doing online video,

03:19:53.660 | I'm like, boom, there's no gatekeepers.

03:19:55.380 | This is democratized.

03:19:56.660 | Wisdom of the crowd is going to win.

03:19:58.060 | So if you start with no money and let's

03:20:01.740 | pick a different example, not the Young Turks,

03:20:03.340 | let's say Phil DeFranco, he's been around

03:20:05.220 | forever, okay.

03:20:06.380 | And, uh, and he also does news.

03:20:09.220 | And so Phil starts doing a show and he

03:20:13.380 | doesn't have any money, just like us.

03:20:15.620 | And so what does he, what does he have

03:20:17.620 | to do to get an audience?

03:20:18.580 | He has to do a show that is really popular.

03:20:20.780 | He's got to figure out a way.

03:20:22.860 | How do I get their attention?

03:20:24.220 | How do I keep their attention?

03:20:26.020 | And he starts doing a great show.

03:20:27.900 | Right.

03:20:28.620 | And so every year it's us and Phil for best

03:20:31.260 | news show for like a decade.

03:20:32.620 | Right.

03:20:32.940 | And meanwhile, I'm back over at CNN, Wolf

03:20:37.860 | Blitzer still droning on from a teleprompter.

03:20:40.300 | You put Wolf Blitzer online without the

03:20:44.020 | force of CNN with him.

03:20:45.340 | He gets negative seven views.

03:20:47.380 | No, one's interested in what Wolf Blitzer

03:20:49.820 | has to say.

03:20:50.140 | It's not personal.

03:20:50.860 | I don't know the brother, right.

03:20:52.540 | I'm just saying institutionally,

03:20:53.980 | logically, et cetera.

03:20:55.180 | So I'm like, these guys are going to win.

03:20:57.300 | So when YouTube starts, we go on YouTube

03:21:00.700 | right away, we're the first YouTube partner.

03:21:02.540 | So I am literally the original YouTuber.

03:21:05.380 | Nice.

03:21:07.860 | Susan Wojcicki, the former CEO of the

03:21:11.300 | late Susan Wojcicki, a wonderful woman.

03:21:14.060 | And if that triggers you again on the right,

03:21:16.460 | you're wrong, she was a terrific person.

03:21:19.820 | And, um, and she, when she started her own

03:21:22.860 | YouTube channel, uh, I was the first interview

03:21:25.900 | cause we were the first YouTube partner.

03:21:27.300 | So, so I love that.

03:21:30.180 | So we're in that, but let me connect

03:21:33.020 | it back to the hope.

03:21:33.860 | When mainstream media has you hooked, you've

03:21:36.980 | got no hope because you don't have the right

03:21:39.260 | information, you have propaganda, you have

03:21:41.860 | marketing, you don't have real news.

03:21:43.740 | When you're in the online world, it's chaotic

03:21:46.900 | and don't get me wrong, it's got plenty

03:21:48.900 | of downsides, right?

03:21:50.100 | But within that chaos, the truth begins to emerge.

03:21:54.620 | And so, for example, Young Turks has had

03:21:57.180 | dozens of fights with different creators

03:21:58.940 | throughout history.

03:21:59.580 | Why?

03:22:00.140 | When you're number one in news online, the

03:22:02.900 | algorithm rewards anyone attacking you because

03:22:05.700 | then you get into their algorithmic loop.

03:22:07.620 | It's not an accident that we've been

03:22:09.940 | attacked dozens of times.

03:22:11.220 | One, we're independent thinkers.

03:22:13.300 | So anyone, if we don't match their ideology,

03:22:15.180 | they're going to attack us.

03:22:15.900 | But number two, they get in our algorithm loop.

03:22:18.540 | It's too hard to resist, right?

03:22:20.380 | So all of a sudden they think that we're

03:22:22.380 | being funded by Nancy Pelosi or the CIA and

03:22:25.140 | then, oh, we're off to the races.

03:22:26.380 | There's another fight, right?

03:22:27.740 | But our competition is a graveyard.

03:22:30.140 | And so we've won almost all of those fights.

03:22:35.740 | Why?

03:22:36.700 | Because we try really hard to stick with

03:22:40.060 | the truth, with logic, and we don't do

03:22:42.980 | audience capture.

03:22:43.860 | Even if our audience is going in one

03:22:45.900 | direction, we don't think it's right.

03:22:47.660 | We'll, Anna and I will come out and go, no,

03:22:49.780 | sorry guys, love you, but rent control is

03:22:52.060 | not a good idea.

03:22:52.740 | Okay.

03:22:53.540 | Et cetera.

03:22:54.780 | So in that world, the people, it's going

03:22:59.700 | to take a while guys, but people who are

03:23:01.700 | telling the truth are eventually going to

03:23:03.380 | rise up and when they do, now we're free.

03:23:06.700 | And now the second part is even more

03:23:08.900 | devastating for mainstream media because

03:23:10.460 | I'm a businessman, right?

03:23:11.780 | I keep looking at the revenue for CNN, et

03:23:16.540 | cetera, and they have a massive problem and

03:23:19.940 | people don't realize how big the problem is.

03:23:22.060 | That thing's going to capsize.

03:23:24.060 | I don't talk about it often cause I don't

03:23:26.980 | want more competition.

03:23:28.020 | Okay.

03:23:29.060 | I also have a company, right, in, in the

03:23:31.900 | online world, et cetera.

03:23:33.020 | But, but, but I'm too honest.

03:23:35.900 | I gotta say it.

03:23:36.580 | I gotta say it.

03:23:37.220 | So they're, they have two revenue streams.

03:23:40.180 | One is ads.

03:23:41.300 | That's why they serve advertisers and

03:23:43.140 | politicians are huge advertisers, as we

03:23:45.060 | mentioned, the second, uh, revenue stream.

03:23:48.300 | Uh, depending on the company is arguably

03:23:50.260 | more important, which is subscribers.

03:23:52.660 | So now what happens in a business normally

03:23:56.140 | is, uh, so they started out low and then

03:23:59.580 | they got high and now they got a ton of

03:24:01.500 | subscribers at its peak cable, uh, has a

03:24:05.140 | hundred million households, right?

03:24:07.140 | So they're raking in unbelievable money

03:24:10.500 | from subscriber fees and they got

03:24:12.220 | advertising on top.

03:24:13.660 | So when you're all the way up here,

03:24:15.140 | your costs start to rise.

03:24:16.620 | Why do they rise?

03:24:17.780 | Because then the on-air talent has

03:24:20.020 | leverage and, uh, as an example, there's

03:24:22.220 | many others, yes.

03:24:23.140 | The, and so the on-air talent, like Sean

03:24:26.140 | Hannity says, I do a program that brings

03:24:27.900 | in X amount of maybe a hundred million,

03:24:30.020 | maybe 200 million.

03:24:30.900 | So give me 40 million a year.

03:24:32.620 | And they do, Sean is making 40 million

03:24:36.300 | a year last I checked.

03:24:37.700 | Okay.

03:24:38.380 | So I don't know if he's still getting that

03:24:39.900 | kind of money and I'm just basing it on

03:24:41.580 | reporting, right, but that's a monster.

03:24:43.900 | So they have all these giant costs, but

03:24:45.660 | the minute you lose, you go from a hundred

03:24:48.260 | million, now we're at, I think around 70

03:24:49.940 | million, you just lost a giant chunk of your

03:24:52.780 | revenue.

03:24:53.100 | Now, when your costs are higher than your

03:24:56.220 | revenue, nighty night, it's been nice knowing

03:24:59.180 | you.

03:24:59.340 | Yeah.

03:25:01.380 | It's going to collapse and it's

03:25:02.580 | going to be painful.

03:25:03.380 | But what we need guys, it's like, sorry,

03:25:05.580 | last thing on that is we need the print guys

03:25:08.380 | like AP, Reuters, Intercept, the lever, the

03:25:12.620 | Serota runs, whatever Ryan's working on now.

03:25:15.020 | It's that Ryan Grimm.

03:25:15.940 | So we need those badly.

03:25:18.300 | We need someone to collect actual

03:25:20.540 | information and do the best they can and

03:25:22.980 | presenting it in an objective way.

03:25:24.580 | We all got to support that.

03:25:26.260 | So you can't lose texts.

03:25:28.260 | That's so important.

03:25:29.460 | The TV guys are just actors.

03:25:31.380 | You can lose them overnight and it won't

03:25:32.900 | hurt you.

03:25:33.220 | It'll help you.

03:25:33.740 | Yeah.

03:25:34.460 | Just, it's going to be a messy battle for

03:25:38.420 | truth because the reality is there's a lot

03:25:41.740 | of money to be made and a lot of attention

03:25:44.020 | to be gained from drama farming.

03:25:45.940 | So just constantly creating drama and

03:25:49.540 | sometimes drama helps find the truth like

03:25:52.860 | we were mentioning, but most of the time

03:25:54.620 | it's just drama and it can, it doesn't care

03:25:57.060 | about the truth.

03:25:57.580 | It just cares about drama.

03:25:58.620 | And then the same as a conspiracy theories.

03:26:01.100 | Now some conspiracy theories have value

03:26:03.820 | in depth and they allow us to question the

03:26:06.900 | establishment institutions, but the bottom

03:26:10.500 | line is conspiracy theories get clicks.

03:26:12.860 | And so you can just keep coming up with

03:26:14.940 | random conspiracy theories.

03:26:15.940 | Many of them don't have to be grounded in

03:26:18.380 | the truth at all.

03:26:19.060 | And so that's the seat we're operating in.

03:26:21.820 | And so it's a tricky space too.

03:26:24.940 | But Lex, look at all the people who are

03:26:27.460 | the biggest now, because we've now had a

03:26:29.940 | couple of decades at this, right?

03:26:31.820 | So, uh, I mean, as an industry, so I would

03:26:37.980 | argue you're huge and you don't do that.

03:26:40.940 | You don't do the conspiracy theories.

03:26:42.500 | You don't do the drama at all.

03:26:44.020 | Right.

03:26:44.460 | Um, Rogan is huge.

03:26:47.020 | Yeah.

03:26:47.300 | Maybe there's drama, but he's genuine, right?

03:26:49.740 | I got a lot of issues with some of his

03:26:52.340 | policies, mixed opinions on Joe in a lot

03:26:55.220 | of different ways, but I don't doubt that

03:26:57.380 | he's genuine and people can sense that.

03:26:59.980 | Right.

03:27:01.180 | And he's huge.

03:27:02.140 | We're genuine.

03:27:03.020 | We're huge.

03:27:03.860 | So this is the market beginning to work.

03:27:07.340 | Yeah.

03:27:07.780 | So speaking of Joe, let me ask you about this.

03:27:11.020 | Here we go.

03:27:13.460 | I didn't actually know this, but when I was

03:27:15.380 | prepping for this conversation, I saw that

03:27:17.540 | you actually said at some point in the past

03:27:19.260 | that you can beat up Rogan in a fight.

03:27:21.380 | Yeah.

03:27:22.060 | No, you said that you have a shot.

03:27:23.940 | It's a non-zero probability.

03:27:25.420 | Yes.

03:27:25.780 | Do you still believe this?

03:27:26.940 | Yes.

03:27:27.780 | But the probability is dropping.

03:27:30.380 | It's dropping every day.

03:27:31.460 | I think it's the, probably the stupidest

03:27:34.100 | thing I've ever heard you say.

03:27:35.500 | So I did martial arts, I wrestled and did

03:27:37.980 | jujitsu and judo and all the kinds of fighting

03:27:40.140 | sports my whole life.

03:27:41.060 | And I just observed a lot of really confident,

03:27:44.940 | large guys roll into gyms.

03:27:48.660 | He's ripped.

03:27:49.740 | He can deadlift.

03:27:50.700 | He can talk all kinds of shit and he believes

03:27:52.860 | he's going to be the next world champion and

03:27:55.060 | he just gets his ass kicked.

03:27:56.340 | Yeah.

03:27:56.740 | Of course.

03:27:59.300 | Okay.

03:27:59.780 | And I've seen, like, I saw this Israeli MMA

03:28:04.180 | fighter take on an anti-Semite who was huge

03:28:06.940 | and thought that, you know, he believed in

03:28:09.020 | like Nick Fuentes' conspiracy theories or

03:28:11.020 | something and the MMA fighter dismantled him.

03:28:14.340 | And I loved it.

03:28:15.380 | Okay.

03:28:15.940 | And then he like, we tweeted back and forth,

03:28:17.620 | et cetera.

03:28:18.180 | So guys, first, let me just assure you, I get it.

03:28:21.740 | So now let me tell you why I said it and then

03:28:26.540 | why I think it's a non-zero chance.

03:28:28.580 | So Michael Smirkonish had written this blog,

03:28:32.460 | like, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago on

03:28:35.660 | Huffington Post, we were both bloggers at that

03:28:37.540 | point, about the wussification of America.

03:28:40.220 | Now he was saying the left is a bunch of

03:28:41.740 | wussies, right?

03:28:42.620 | So I wrote a blog saying, hey, Michael, I

03:28:45.980 | would rather debate you.

03:28:47.060 | So if you want to debate about how we're

03:28:49.380 | wussies, let's do it.

03:28:50.900 | Let's find a thing.

03:28:51.780 | But you know, you're mentioning physicality,

03:28:54.940 | right?

03:28:55.300 | And how you guys are tougher.

03:28:56.820 | So if you prefer only in a prescribed setting,

03:28:59.820 | right, and we're not going to go do it in

03:29:01.500 | the streets like idiots, right?

03:29:02.860 | But if you want, we'll have a boxing match or

03:29:04.980 | whatever you want and we'll see who's tougher.

03:29:07.300 | And he panicked and he cried to mommy,

03:29:11.780 | which was Ariana Huffington.

03:29:13.300 | And oh, Jake's intimidating me.

03:29:16.060 | Right.

03:29:16.300 | Okay.

03:29:16.620 | All right.

03:29:16.940 | Well, who's the wussy now, bitch.

03:29:18.500 | Right.

03:29:19.220 | So that is not to actually get into a fight

03:29:22.060 | with poor Michael Smirkonish, right?

03:29:24.780 | It's to prove, hey, don't use rhetoric like that.

03:29:27.420 | That's dumb.

03:29:28.380 | And this is me proving that it's dumb.

03:29:30.780 | Okay.

03:29:31.660 | So now Joe had said, I forget what he said

03:29:34.340 | at the time and he'd said something similar.

03:29:36.060 | Right.

03:29:36.580 | And I'm up to here with Joe at that point.

03:29:39.060 | I don't know if we'll ever talking yet.

03:29:40.740 | Right.

03:29:41.140 | But.

03:29:41.460 | You've been on a show and I really, that

03:29:43.260 | was a good conversation.

03:29:44.180 | It was a great conversation.

03:29:44.980 | It was a while back.

03:29:45.620 | Yeah.

03:29:45.860 | Yeah.

03:29:46.260 | I hope he has you on again.

03:29:47.460 | Yeah.

03:29:47.940 | So I get it.

03:29:49.060 | He, I bet you, I don't like this take you

03:29:52.460 | have a lot.

03:29:54.060 | I bet you, he hates it because him as an

03:29:57.260 | MMA commentator, he gets to hear so many

03:30:01.020 | bros, it's all about the mindset, bro.

03:30:04.500 | Now the steel man, the point you're making,

03:30:07.700 | which I do think it's the stupidest thing

03:30:09.940 | you've ever said, but.

03:30:11.740 | The actual intent, which is whether you're

03:30:16.220 | left or right, there's, there's strong people

03:30:18.660 | on the left, like mentally strong, physically

03:30:21.860 | strong, like, I think the whole point is not

03:30:25.340 | that you can beat them, but you're willing

03:30:26.860 | to step, you're willing to fight if you need

03:30:29.500 | to, that's it's a hundred percent.

03:30:31.180 | So it's not like, I believe I could beat

03:30:33.100 | them.

03:30:33.220 | It's like, I'm willing, like all this shit,

03:30:35.180 | you know, calling the people on the left

03:30:36.900 | wusses or whatever.

03:30:37.940 | I'm willing to step in the fight, even if

03:30:40.620 | I'm on train, even if I'm in shape, I'm

03:30:42.900 | willing to fight.

03:30:43.500 | Yeah, I get it.

03:30:44.500 | I mean, I understand that, but it's just

03:30:46.220 | pick a different person.

03:30:47.420 | Um, that's why I wrote down on my genuine

03:30:50.940 | curiosity is if you can beat up Alex, Alex

03:30:53.860 | Jones versus Cenk, that, that, that, the

03:30:57.140 | legitimacy is I would pay for that because

03:30:59.100 | you're both untrained.

03:31:00.180 | Um, you both got, I would say the spirit.

03:31:04.180 | No, no, he has, look, I'll give the same

03:31:07.140 | fairness.

03:31:07.940 | Yeah.

03:31:08.300 | I think I got an 8% chance of being,

03:31:10.340 | beating Rogan.

03:31:11.340 | Yeah, you're, you're the boss.

03:31:12.740 | I know, I got it, hold on.

03:31:13.820 | All right.

03:31:14.300 | And I think to be fair, Alex has an 8%

03:31:16.740 | chance of beating me.

03:31:17.540 | Oh, wow.

03:31:18.540 | Yeah.

03:31:18.940 | Okay.

03:31:19.540 | Because you never know, he catches

03:31:20.980 | you on a lucky punch.

03:31:21.820 | I got punched in the ear once and you lose

03:31:24.420 | your balance and then you're in a lot of

03:31:26.060 | trouble, right?

03:31:26.820 | So I can get lucky, Alex Jones can't lucky.

03:31:29.660 | It's me against Rogan is harder.

03:31:31.660 | I like you, if you said to me, you don't

03:31:34.740 | have 8% chance, um, but Alex does.

03:31:38.780 | Okay.

03:31:39.420 | I'm not going to, it's, it's fine.

03:31:41.260 | Right.

03:31:41.700 | So why would it, does Alex stand

03:31:44.580 | almost no chance against me?

03:31:45.620 | So first of all, it's not just because

03:31:47.500 | I'm big and he's big.

03:31:48.820 | One, I wrestled.

03:31:49.900 | Oh, you wrestled.

03:31:50.740 | Yeah.

03:31:51.180 | If you wrestled, then you're like, I watched

03:31:54.020 | this show with my kids, Physical 100, it's

03:31:56.100 | like a Korean show where they try to find

03:31:58.020 | out who's the best, best athlete.

03:31:59.420 | They have one thing where they have to

03:32:00.780 | wrestle away the ball and keep it, this

03:32:02.660 | big giant ball.

03:32:03.420 | I'm like, every wrestler is going to win.

03:32:05.260 | Every MMA fighter is going to win.

03:32:06.900 | And every time they win.

03:32:08.140 | And they're like, dad, how'd you know that?

03:32:09.340 | Because we get trained.

03:32:10.900 | We're not going to lose to a non-wrestler

03:32:13.220 | in a wrestling contest.

03:32:14.660 | It's not going to happen.

03:32:15.540 | Right.

03:32:16.300 | So you can get lucky, but it's unlikely.

03:32:18.900 | So one wrestling, now that was from a long

03:32:22.220 | time ago, but at least, you know, the mechanics.

03:32:23.860 | Right.

03:32:24.260 | Uh, number two, I've gotten into about 30

03:32:27.260 | actual street fights in my life.

03:32:28.780 | And you can say street fights, not the same

03:32:30.380 | as MMA, of course that's true.

03:32:31.540 | Obviously true.

03:32:32.220 | Right.

03:32:32.580 | But it's not no experience.

03:32:34.260 | It's some experience.

03:32:35.380 | And the most important part of a street

03:32:37.620 | fight is being able to take a punch to the face.

03:32:40.420 | Okay.

03:32:41.180 | Yeah.

03:32:41.340 | Knowing what it feels like to get punched in the face.

03:32:43.260 | Yeah.

03:32:43.660 | So I've been punched in the face.

03:32:45.220 | I don't know, dozens of times in my life.

03:32:47.060 | I used to start fights by saying, I'll

03:32:49.380 | let you take the first punch.

03:32:50.580 | Okay.

03:32:51.500 | So I didn't start the fights.

03:32:54.460 | They just started cause they'd

03:32:55.580 | punch me in the face.

03:32:56.460 | Okay.

03:32:57.060 | So, and then, and then for Alex, the main

03:33:00.980 | thing, and also true for Rogan is it's

03:33:04.020 | about willpower, right?

03:33:05.420 | So if you, if, if Joe has a 92% chance, in

03:33:11.220 | my opinion, of knocking me out or beating me,

03:33:13.300 | because he has the skill and he's trained

03:33:15.820 | and he knows what he's doing.

03:33:17.020 | So all the willpower in the world, isn't

03:33:18.620 | going to help you if you get kicked

03:33:20.260 | upside the head, right?

03:33:21.380 | So, but in the unlikely circumstances

03:33:25.180 | that I've worn him down, right.

03:33:27.060 | Then I'm a little bit more in the ball

03:33:28.900 | game because I got willpower for Alex.

03:33:30.740 | He doesn't have the willpower I have.

03:33:32.580 | Okay.

03:33:33.300 | I'm because to me, the idea of losing

03:33:36.020 | Alex Jones is unthinkable.

03:33:38.980 | I would do anything not to lose anything.

03:33:42.500 | Let me just say, so that's beautiful.

03:33:44.100 | I love this.

03:33:44.580 | I would pay a lot of money to watch the

03:33:46.620 | two of you just even like wrestle.

03:33:48.140 | But with Joe, I think, I just, I have to

03:33:53.620 | say it's like, it's, it's 0.0001% chance.

03:33:57.940 | You have a chance before you even get to

03:33:59.820 | the mentality.

03:34:00.540 | And the other thing is on the mentality

03:34:04.300 | side, one of the fascinating things about

03:34:06.620 | Joe is he's actually a sweetheart in person

03:34:09.420 | like this, but there's something that takes

03:34:12.020 | over him when he competes.

03:34:13.580 | Brother, we've been around 22 years in the

03:34:16.220 | toughest industry in the world.

03:34:17.820 | I understand, yeah.

03:34:18.260 | Right.

03:34:18.780 | If you, like, do you have any idea how

03:34:21.060 | hard it is to run a 75 person company and

03:34:23.900 | make money online and survive after all the

03:34:26.420 | guys who took billions of dollars went.

03:34:27.980 | I hear you.

03:34:28.500 | Tremendous willpower.

03:34:29.660 | So, but overall you're, I, this is

03:34:32.620 | not the hill I'm dying on.

03:34:33.780 | Right.

03:34:33.940 | Okay.

03:34:34.460 | Joe would win, I get it.

03:34:36.900 | I think we're all allowed one kind of, um,

03:34:41.500 | blind spot, I suppose.

03:34:42.940 | So you don't think a huge, a big guy that

03:34:47.020 | still is in good shape that was a wrestler

03:34:49.860 | that's been in a lot of street fights,

03:34:51.740 | you still think 0.0001?

03:34:53.780 | It depends on street fights, but yeah, 0.001.

03:34:56.460 | I just see technique.

03:34:57.140 | Okay, yeah, and it's such a minute

03:34:58.580 | disagreement because, so take me out of it.

03:35:01.260 | So you take out the willpower part of blah,

03:35:02.900 | blah, blah.

03:35:03.220 | Yeah, yeah, yeah.

03:35:03.580 | I think it's one to 2%.

03:35:05.060 | Yeah, he could catch the guy on about,

03:35:06.460 | you know, and get lucky.

03:35:08.060 | I think it's because I've talked to, so I

03:35:09.620 | trained with a coach named John Donaher and

03:35:11.780 | we talk about this a lot and I think

03:35:13.660 | technique is just such, technique is the

03:35:17.580 | thing that also feeds the willpower.

03:35:19.340 | It actually builds up your confidence in

03:35:21.060 | the, in the way that like nothing else

03:35:24.140 | does, in the, in the more actionable way,

03:35:27.900 | because you won't need that much willpower.

03:35:30.900 | No, I totally get that.

03:35:32.020 | If the technique is back, like you don't

03:35:34.300 | have to be like a tough guy to win debates

03:35:36.940 | if you're just fucking good at debates.

03:35:39.300 | Right.

03:35:39.620 | So I think people just don't understand

03:35:41.900 | the value in sport and especially

03:35:44.260 | in combat of technique.

03:35:46.220 | No, I, the, a great irony here is I

03:35:48.900 | actually totally agree with that.

03:35:50.140 | That's why I mentioned the physical 100,

03:35:52.620 | technique's going to win every day,

03:35:53.820 | like almost every time.

03:35:55.220 | We're having a debate about whether

03:35:56.740 | it's eight or one or 0.01, right?

03:35:59.260 | Like it's either way, technique wins.

03:36:01.740 | Yeah.

03:36:01.940 | We agree.

03:36:02.460 | Okay.

03:36:02.900 | Beautiful.

03:36:03.460 | In the, uh, one of the controversial

03:36:06.620 | things you've done in the nineties

03:36:09.620 | as a student at UPenn, you publicly

03:36:12.300 | denied the Armenian genocide, which

03:36:15.780 | is the mass murder of over a million

03:36:18.020 | Armenians in 1915 and 16 in the Ottoman

03:36:21.180 | empire, um, you have since then publicly,

03:36:25.380 | uh, and clearly changed your mind on this.

03:36:28.220 | Um, tell me the process you went

03:36:31.580 | through to change your mind.

03:36:33.860 | Yeah.

03:36:34.260 | So when you're a kid, you're taught

03:36:37.340 | a whole bunch of things.

03:36:38.140 | That's the software that we

03:36:39.140 | talked about earlier, right?

03:36:40.300 | So cultural software is media, family,

03:36:43.180 | friends, uh, social media, et cetera.

03:36:45.700 | And so growing up in any tribe, whether

03:36:50.100 | it's a religious tribe or an ethnic tribe,

03:36:52.220 | you're going to get indoctrinated into

03:36:54.140 | that tribes way of thinking.

03:36:55.380 | So you take a Turkish person who's super

03:36:58.300 | progressive, loves Bernie, believes with

03:37:00.940 | all their heart and peace, and you tell

03:37:03.420 | them something about Kurds and they'll

03:37:06.260 | say, Oh no, not those guys.

03:37:07.420 | They're terrible and evil.

03:37:08.420 | And we have to do what we do to them.

03:37:09.620 | Uh, you see, that's the tribe taking over.

03:37:12.380 | Right.

03:37:12.820 | And so, uh, you tell any religious

03:37:17.340 | person what's wrong with the other

03:37:18.500 | religions, they're like, oh yeah, yeah.

03:37:19.740 | That's totally true.

03:37:20.420 | You get to their religion, tribe takes

03:37:22.100 | over, no, how dare you, I'm offended.

03:37:24.020 | Right.

03:37:24.340 | So I grew up with Turkish propaganda.

03:37:26.940 | So, uh, I'll tell you a couple of

03:37:28.700 | funny instances of it.

03:37:29.620 | When we were kids, we'd go to Turkish

03:37:31.340 | American Day Parade, I'm like 10 or 12

03:37:33.740 | years old, it's in the middle of New York.

03:37:35.420 | Cause I grew up in Jersey.

03:37:37.460 | That's why I got in all those fights.

03:37:39.020 | Uh, and, uh, and we would chant in Turkish,

03:37:44.220 | Turkey is the biggest country.

03:37:46.020 | There's no other country that's even big.

03:37:48.020 | And I was like, this is crazy.

03:37:50.060 | I'm like, dad, isn't this crazy?

03:37:51.540 | America's big, China's big.

03:37:53.420 | Why are we chanting this nonsensical chant?

03:37:55.300 | Right.

03:37:55.700 | So that's the beginning of being

03:37:57.180 | to realize you're indoctrinated.

03:37:58.340 | I'm in college and I read about some battle

03:38:01.820 | that the Ottoman Empire lost.

03:38:04.260 | And I'm like, that can't be right.

03:38:05.460 | Uh, the Turks have only lost one war,

03:38:07.860 | World War I, right.

03:38:08.820 | And I was like, oh my God, I'm an idiot.

03:38:10.700 | I got taught that in third grade in Turkey.

03:38:12.780 | Of course, that's not true.

03:38:13.980 | That's ridiculously untrue.

03:38:15.700 | Right.

03:38:16.140 | All those thoughts are in your head.

03:38:18.540 | You don't even realize it.

03:38:19.580 | And so on the Armenian genocide, I read

03:38:22.060 | the Turkish version and the Turkish version

03:38:24.500 | has all of these, this evidence, right?

03:38:27.220 | So it's real in that it exists, but here

03:38:29.900 | I'll give you a great example of it.

03:38:31.180 | Uh, I think it was Colonel Chestery,

03:38:33.820 | some random American, uh, military

03:38:36.420 | guy after World War I.

03:38:37.980 | And he says about the Armenians after

03:38:40.540 | the mass, uh, march, the forced marches.

03:38:45.100 | He says they returned to the area fat

03:38:47.340 | and entirely unmassacred.

03:38:48.900 | Okay.

03:38:50.540 | I'm like, Hey, that's an American

03:38:51.780 | Colonel that's saying that.

03:38:52.900 | So that's obviously true.

03:38:54.220 | You see, they didn't happen, right.

03:38:55.940 | Or at least in the way that the Armenians say.

03:38:57.540 | Now as a grownup, I look at it and I go,

03:38:59.980 | are you kidding me?

03:39:00.580 | That guy's obviously trying to get a contract

03:39:02.260 | with the Turkish government, right?

03:39:03.460 | Nobody returns from a forced march fat

03:39:06.700 | and entirely unmassacred, right?

03:39:09.220 | So that's propaganda.

03:39:10.620 | And so it, and that one was so indoctrinated

03:39:16.660 | that it was tough to let go.

03:39:18.300 | So in, at Penn, I write that op-ed,

03:39:21.460 | et cetera, and then over the course of time.

03:39:24.260 | And so Anna and I disagree on things from

03:39:26.540 | time to time, and we've been co-hosting now

03:39:28.700 | for, she's been at Young Turks for 18 years

03:39:31.660 | and co-hosting for, you know, almost 18.

03:39:34.140 | And so she's Armenian.

03:39:37.380 | And by the way, I love America.

03:39:39.100 | I mean, look, we came to America because

03:39:40.620 | we love this country, land of hope and

03:39:42.140 | opportunity, that's part of why I fight

03:39:43.820 | so hard for the average American,

03:39:45.140 | for the American idea.

03:39:46.060 | So here's a Turk and an Armenian doing

03:39:48.540 | a show together and it becomes the number

03:39:50.460 | one online news show.

03:39:51.620 | That's the beauty of America, right?

03:39:54.140 | So she's telling me things and we're

03:39:57.380 | having some on-air discussions about it,

03:40:00.180 | et cetera, and then it just dawned on me,

03:40:02.900 | like, no, this was, this too was obviously

03:40:06.460 | propaganda.

03:40:07.140 | So at that point, once you realize that it

03:40:10.220 | becomes easier, that's why I'm trying to

03:40:11.620 | unplug people from the matrix, because once

03:40:14.300 | you realize it's propaganda, oh my God,

03:40:16.300 | it gets infinitely easier to start telling

03:40:18.380 | what's true or not true.

03:40:19.300 | So maybe by way of advice, how do you know

03:40:22.860 | when you're diluted by propaganda?

03:40:24.580 | How do you know you're not believing a

03:40:26.380 | kind of, uh, how do you know when you're

03:40:28.780 | not plugged into the matrix, when you're

03:40:30.380 | plugged into the matrix?

03:40:31.460 | You have to keep testing it against

03:40:33.460 | objective reality.

03:40:34.460 | Okay.

03:40:35.420 | They said something, did it happen or

03:40:37.580 | did it not happen?

03:40:38.500 | So here, here's an easy one.

03:40:40.420 | Alex Jones, for a long time, especially

03:40:43.420 | under Obama, kept saying, they're going to

03:40:45.460 | put us on FIBA caps.

03:40:46.660 | I'm telling you, they're going to stuff

03:40:47.820 | us all in the FIBA caps and they're going

03:40:49.180 | to put us in and they're going to let us out.

03:40:50.900 | I know it.

03:40:51.540 | I know it for sure.

03:40:52.380 | Right.

03:40:53.060 | Nobody's been in a FIBA cap, Obama left.

03:40:55.700 | There was no FIBA caps.

03:40:56.700 | So what I asked like for the right wing

03:40:58.740 | conspiracy guys, guys, has any of their

03:41:01.540 | things ever come true?

03:41:02.740 | Like they always say all these crazy things

03:41:05.620 | that never, ever happened.

03:41:07.020 | So the third time it doesn't happen, can

03:41:10.500 | you please start to wonder, maybe I'm on

03:41:13.060 | the wrong side, maybe.

03:41:14.580 | And, but, but that's not just for right

03:41:16.860 | wingers, that's easy.

03:41:17.820 | Right.

03:41:18.420 | But it's also for mainstream media.

03:41:20.540 | And that's where I get the biggest

03:41:21.900 | pushback and that's where, because my

03:41:24.540 | tribe is, is what the kids call PMC,

03:41:28.260 | professional management class.

03:41:29.620 | Okay.

03:41:30.460 | They're curious, you go up the ladder,

03:41:34.060 | you have this route, that route, et cetera.

03:41:36.300 | And so for that class, the status

03:41:40.180 | quo is pretty good.

03:41:41.420 | So when you get, when Biden gives you

03:41:43.780 | 15% change, you're like, what else do

03:41:46.140 | y'all want?

03:41:46.980 | That's amazing.

03:41:48.300 | He just course corrected a little bit.

03:41:49.980 | Now it's perfect.

03:41:50.860 | Right.

03:41:51.660 | But for the average guy who needs

03:41:53.500 | a hundred percent change, not 15, they

03:41:56.060 | look at it and they go, what the fuck?

03:41:59.180 | He only did 15% and everybody's

03:42:00.860 | declaring him a hero, right?

03:42:02.220 | So those are the hardest guys to get

03:42:04.100 | through on, and those are the guys who

03:42:05.340 | get most mad at me, not the right wingers,

03:42:07.260 | the establishment.

03:42:08.140 | That's why I, I'm nails on a chalkboard

03:42:11.140 | for them because I'm on the left, but I

03:42:14.100 | call out their crap and their marketing

03:42:17.380 | and propaganda, and that's why I mentioned

03:42:20.500 | earlier, no one probably, he might not

03:42:23.980 | even consciously know it, but no one

03:42:25.980 | dislikes Bernie more than Obama, because

03:42:27.740 | if Bernie got into office, he'd embarrass

03:42:30.540 | Obama by doing a lot more change.

03:42:32.900 | And Obama told us the change wasn't

03:42:35.620 | possible, you could only get 5%.

03:42:37.580 | And so if Bernie does 50%, then

03:42:40.140 | Obama's humiliated and his record

03:42:42.340 | and his legacy is ruined.

03:42:43.620 | Right?

03:42:44.420 | So he, I don't think he makes that

03:42:46.700 | conscious decision, right?

03:42:48.060 | But it's subconscious.

03:42:49.300 | It's a way of thinking.

03:42:50.620 | So if you're watching morning, Joe test

03:42:55.420 | them, he says something that Biden

03:42:58.020 | is for $15 minimum wage.

03:42:59.820 | When Biden takes it out of the bill,

03:43:01.780 | know that morning, Joe was lying to you.

03:43:04.460 | He says that Biden said he was for the

03:43:06.620 | public option, but he never even proposed

03:43:08.740 | it when morning, Joe still defends them.

03:43:11.100 | And, and you see an objective reality.

03:43:13.500 | Biden didn't actually propose that bill.

03:43:15.620 | You know, that they're lying to you

03:43:17.500 | tested against objective reality.

03:43:19.900 | Did it actually happen or didn't it?

03:43:21.460 | I mean, there's some of that, just to

03:43:23.580 | steal me on some of the conspiracy theories.

03:43:25.460 | Do you think there's some value to the

03:43:28.580 | conspiracy theories, uh, that come from

03:43:31.060 | the right, but actually more so come

03:43:32.980 | from the anti-establishment?

03:43:34.300 | So, I mean, for me, one, I mean, there's

03:43:36.500 | a lot that, uh, raise a bit of a question.

03:43:40.980 | Um, a lot of them could probably be

03:43:43.420 | explained by corporatism and the

03:43:45.220 | military industrial complex.

03:43:46.660 | Uh, but there's also a lot of them

03:43:49.020 | can be explained by creepiness and

03:43:51.140 | shadiness in human nature.

03:43:52.820 | Uh, Epstein is an example of that.

03:43:55.540 | There's a lot of ways to explain Epstein,

03:43:57.260 | um, including the basic creepiness of

03:44:01.500 | human nature, um, but there could be

03:44:04.660 | bigger explanations underlying it.

03:44:06.260 | So sometimes when we have long, uh,

03:44:09.660 | thoughtful conversations like this, I'll

03:44:11.620 | say it depends a lot and then people

03:44:13.860 | get frustrated by that, but then you're

03:44:15.500 | frustrated by the world because it depends.

03:44:18.540 | So conspiracy theories, if you say, are

03:44:22.060 | they all right, or are they all wrong?

03:44:23.820 | Already the question's wrong.

03:44:25.460 | So it depends.

03:44:27.660 | What is the conspiracy theory?

03:44:29.300 | So if it's, you know, some of the absurd

03:44:31.940 | ones we've mentioned here, that's

03:44:33.780 | easily disproven, right?

03:44:35.340 | Um, on the other hand, um, there's a

03:44:39.220 | conspiracy theory, uh, about JFK's

03:44:42.020 | assassination, which one's the conspiracy

03:44:45.180 | theory that Lee Harvey Oswald from like

03:44:48.020 | 12 miles away, shot a magic bullet that

03:44:50.060 | went like this and hit like 13 people and

03:44:52.580 | came out, uh, Kennedy's brain, or that the

03:44:55.700 | government might've wanted to cover up an

03:44:58.100 | assassination of the president for whatever

03:44:59.900 | reason.

03:45:00.380 | Okay.

03:45:01.500 | Come on.

03:45:02.980 | Now I'm of course doing hyperbole and like

03:45:05.300 | the JFK enthusiasts will be like, no, it

03:45:07.380 | did, the bullet didn't actually go like this.

03:45:08.900 | It didn't actually hit 13 people.

03:45:10.180 | I'm, I'm, I'm kidding guys.

03:45:11.980 | Okay.

03:45:12.420 | But in terms of, is that conspiracy theory

03:45:15.900 | real, that JFK was not just killed by Lee

03:45:18.260 | Harvey Oswald?

03:45:19.060 | Almost certainly.

03:45:20.500 | Right.

03:45:21.300 | Uh, and so if you read real books with tons

03:45:25.740 | of information, the most likely culprit is

03:45:28.660 | Alan Dulles, the head of the CIA that he

03:45:31.220 | fired back when there was a deep state, there

03:45:34.460 | actually was a deep state.

03:45:35.820 | They did coups against other country's

03:45:39.300 | leaders all the time, but they tell us, oh,

03:45:41.580 | they wouldn't do it to our own leader.

03:45:43.420 | But remember, it's not the CIA.

03:45:45.740 | He'd left the CIA already.

03:45:46.940 | Right.

03:45:47.340 | So he get, you know, so I don't know if it

03:45:49.700 | was ex CIA guys.

03:45:51.300 | I don't know if the mob was involved.

03:45:52.980 | I don't know any of those details, but I

03:45:54.980 | know some things that are obvious.

03:45:57.060 | That bullet didn't magically hit him from

03:45:59.060 | over there as Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey

03:46:02.660 | Oswald, Jack Ruby was a mobster who on the

03:46:05.820 | record had said that he hated Kennedy.

03:46:08.140 | All of a sudden he became patriotic

03:46:09.860 | overnight and shot the assailant who was

03:46:12.580 | unguarded, maybe less likely.

03:46:15.700 | Okay.

03:46:16.020 | So let's speed up though.

03:46:17.180 | So my point is, yeah, some conspiracy

03:46:19.780 | theories could be true.

03:46:20.980 | It depends on objective reality, right?

03:46:22.940 | You get to Epstein.

03:46:24.260 | Again, I always do it ahead of time because

03:46:30.300 | I want you to test me and see, does it

03:46:32.420 | match objective reality?

03:46:33.660 | So I said the minute that it happened,

03:46:37.420 | you'll have your answer based on whether

03:46:39.460 | the video in the hallway worked or not.

03:46:41.140 | If the video in the hallway works, there'll

03:46:43.820 | be just as many conspiracy theories, but

03:46:46.540 | it'll show actually who went in and didn't

03:46:48.340 | go in.

03:46:48.620 | Okay.

03:46:49.380 | But if the video in the hallway doesn't

03:46:51.580 | work, they definitely killed him.

03:46:52.980 | Okay.

03:46:54.100 | So a couple of days later, Oh, the video

03:46:58.020 | in that particular hallway happened to not

03:47:00.460 | be working and the guards both happened to

03:47:03.180 | be on break at the same time.

03:47:05.260 | And the most notorious pedophile criminal

03:47:08.580 | in the country happened to be unguarded.

03:47:11.260 | And that is the one time he decided

03:47:14.620 | to hang himself.

03:47:15.580 | Listen, man, the only way you believe that

03:47:18.580 | is if you got mainstream media to get you

03:47:21.860 | to believe that the word, that the minute

03:47:24.820 | the phrase conspiracy theory is mentioned,

03:47:27.660 | you have to shut off your mind and you have

03:47:30.140 | to believe whatever the media tells you.

03:47:31.580 | Yeah.

03:47:32.380 | Well, it's interesting you just mentioned,

03:47:34.220 | do you think the CIA has not grown in power

03:47:36.660 | versus?

03:47:37.300 | No, no, they've greatly waned in power.

03:47:39.580 | Interesting.

03:47:40.660 | So, so in the old days, the CIA has an

03:47:43.140 | actual deep state and because the country

03:47:45.500 | was run by a bunch of families, right?

03:47:48.580 | So you go to Yale, the skull and bones

03:47:50.580 | thing was real, right?

03:47:51.860 | And you go to Harvard, you go to this and

03:47:54.140 | half the, look at the Dulles family, right?

03:47:55.940 | Half of them go into government, the other

03:47:57.660 | half go into banking.

03:47:58.700 | Uh, why are the Central American countries

03:48:01.820 | called banana republics?

03:48:02.980 | Because we weed America, did a coup

03:48:06.340 | against one of those countries because

03:48:09.140 | a banana company wanted it.

03:48:10.740 | Okay.

03:48:11.240 | The, cause they're like, how dare you

03:48:13.180 | charge whatever you want for your natural

03:48:14.980 | resource, we American corporations have

03:48:17.700 | the right to all of your natural resources

03:48:19.540 | at the lowest possible rate.

03:48:21.060 | Alan, get rid of these guys.

03:48:22.700 | Okay.

03:48:23.420 | And, and Alan would.

03:48:24.820 | And so, and sometimes they would go extra

03:48:29.580 | judicial, right?

03:48:30.740 | Like potentially with the JFK assassination.

03:48:33.740 | So now, and, and by the way, you pissed

03:48:37.260 | off J Edgar Hoover, he was just going

03:48:40.340 | to put a bullet in your head and we were

03:48:41.740 | done with you.

03:48:42.260 | Okay.

03:48:42.940 | Fred Hampton, among others.

03:48:44.540 | So, um, but nowadays that's not how the

03:48:47.860 | world works.

03:48:48.540 | So a small number of families cannot

03:48:52.460 | control a country and an economy this size.

03:48:55.300 | New people pop up, well, Mark Zuckerberg

03:48:58.500 | wasn't part of those families, Elon Musk

03:49:01.180 | wasn't part of those families and neither

03:49:03.020 | was Bezos, right?

03:49:04.020 | For, for you to believe those conspiracy

03:49:06.660 | theories, you have to think that Bezos

03:49:08.620 | and Musk, et cetera, were like, oh, you guys

03:49:10.980 | are still running the country.

03:49:12.020 | No problem.

03:49:12.740 | Go ahead.

03:49:13.220 | Going to do that.

03:49:15.900 | Right.

03:49:16.420 | So now we've gotten into a system where

03:49:20.100 | it's the invisible hand of the market that

03:49:21.620 | runs the country, but unfortunately it's

03:49:23.940 | for only for the powerful.

03:49:25.420 | And so it's more of a machine and they

03:49:29.100 | don't do, and this is super interesting

03:49:31.220 | in ties to what we were talking about

03:49:32.460 | earlier, Lex, which is that they don't do

03:49:34.620 | political assassinations anymore.

03:49:36.220 | They do character assassinations.

03:49:38.900 | That's the needle in the haystack thing.

03:49:40.580 | So, and if you do an assassination

03:49:43.700 | of someone, you build up their status.

03:49:46.820 | They become a martyr and you build up their

03:49:48.940 | cause, but if you do a character assassination,

03:49:52.060 | you smear the cause with the person and the

03:49:55.380 | cause goes down, not up.

03:49:57.100 | So the market found a better way of getting

03:50:01.180 | rid of agitating outsiders.

03:50:03.220 | Well, that's, you know, one of the

03:50:04.860 | conspiracy theories of Epstein is that he's

03:50:08.420 | a front for like a, I guess CIA and they're

03:50:12.700 | getting data on people like creepy pedophile

03:50:18.700 | kind of data to the, they can use to then

03:50:23.220 | threaten character assassination and then

03:50:25.500 | they put them in this way, put the people

03:50:28.100 | in their pockets.

03:50:28.900 | So look, we're not in on it.

03:50:32.020 | So we, there's no way we can know, right.

03:50:34.020 | But the, I just always go back to logic.

03:50:36.940 | So he has dirt on a lot of powerful people.

03:50:42.340 | He dies in a way that is an obvious

03:50:45.340 | murder and not a suicide.

03:50:46.700 | And then you begin to think who would

03:50:49.740 | have enough power to be able to get away

03:50:52.420 | with that crime.

03:50:53.100 | And that is a very limited number of either

03:50:57.220 | people or governments, right?

03:50:59.700 | So that's probably your answer without

03:51:03.740 | knowing anything that's internal.

03:51:05.460 | Yeah.

03:51:06.260 | That's crazy.

03:51:06.940 | We don't have the list of clients.

03:51:08.820 | What is the best way to achieve stability

03:51:12.580 | and peace in Israel and Palestine in the

03:51:15.540 | current situation and in the next five, 10 years?

03:51:19.020 | If people wanted to get to peace, it's

03:51:22.540 | relatively straightforward.

03:51:23.860 | There's already a deal that was negotiated.

03:51:27.460 | The Saudis agreed to it.

03:51:28.780 | And they're an important player in this

03:51:31.540 | game, the Palestinians and the Israelis

03:51:34.100 | have initially agreed to it.

03:51:35.620 | Even Hamas has kind of agreed to it.

03:51:37.420 | That deal exists and it's just waiting

03:51:39.900 | on the shelf to get done.

03:51:41.180 | Right.

03:51:41.620 | And it's pretty straightforward.

03:51:43.420 | Israel gets out of the West bank and

03:51:45.420 | Gaza strip, but they keep it X percentage.

03:51:48.660 | It used to be 4%, then it went up to 6%.

03:51:51.860 | It's probably a higher number now.

03:51:53.380 | The Palestinians keep losing leverage as we go.

03:51:55.900 | Right.

03:51:56.300 | So you remember how hard it was to get a

03:51:59.060 | deal on Ukraine, I thought.

03:52:00.660 | Uh, that's a very complicated one.

03:52:02.340 | Israel is much more straightforward.

03:52:04.260 | Get the hell out of the occupying

03:52:05.940 | territories, keep some of the God, like

03:52:08.500 | those settlements are the worst thing.

03:52:10.980 | They're cancer.

03:52:11.900 | But anyway, I don't know there's, but there

03:52:14.020 | is an answer to the settlements and it's

03:52:15.460 | probably that Israel keeps them, even though

03:52:17.420 | that drives me crazy, no right of return for

03:52:19.660 | Palestinians, there'll be symbolic right of

03:52:21.900 | return for a couple of families.

03:52:23.340 | And so Palestinians go, Oh, no way guys,

03:52:26.300 | you have no leverage.

03:52:27.340 | Take the deal, take the deal.

03:52:29.060 | Okay.

03:52:30.060 | So you're not going to get a right of

03:52:31.580 | return to Israel, it's not going to allow

03:52:32.940 | millions of Palestinians to go and vote in

03:52:35.340 | Israel, it would end the Jewish state.

03:52:37.380 | You have to get to a practical solution.

03:52:39.700 | So honestly, the number one person

03:52:43.700 | blocking it now is Netanyahu.

03:52:45.260 | It's not even, that's obvious.

03:52:46.980 | That's, that doesn't take a lot of

03:52:48.780 | courage to say that.

03:52:50.180 | He says publicly, I don't want a Palestinian

03:52:53.140 | state, I'm against a two state solution.

03:52:55.100 | He's been monstrous.

03:52:56.580 | He's one of the worst terrorists of my

03:52:57.980 | lifetime, um, so that's easy.

03:53:00.820 | The right wing of Israel has lost its mind.

03:53:02.980 | So the Smotrich and the Ben-Gavir is openly

03:53:06.420 | talking about ethnic cleansing and driving

03:53:08.380 | them into other Arab countries.

03:53:10.060 | Um, I mean, this is the definition

03:53:11.860 | of ethnic cleansing.

03:53:12.620 | So, but is like, I know that the Arabs

03:53:18.980 | are going to take the deal.

03:53:19.780 | Saudi Arabia cannot wait to take the deal

03:53:23.580 | cause they just want to get business going, right?

03:53:25.860 | Do you think Hamas takes the deal?

03:53:27.980 | So I had a solution where you don't need

03:53:30.580 | Hamas, but yes, Hamas would definitely

03:53:32.500 | take the deal.

03:53:32.940 | Hamas already publicly said that they

03:53:34.660 | would even get rid of, uh, that Israel

03:53:37.260 | doesn't have a right to exist, but our,

03:53:39.340 | we, there's so much propaganda in American

03:53:41.420 | media, it's maddening, right?

03:53:42.940 | So, and this idea that you don't deal

03:53:45.660 | with Hamas is so dumb.

03:53:48.460 | So the reason it's dumb is you don't

03:53:51.500 | negotiate with your friends.

03:53:53.380 | You negotiate with your enemies.

03:53:55.940 | Well, I don't want to negotiate with them.

03:53:57.740 | I don't like them.

03:53:58.220 | Well, then you're not going to get to peace.

03:53:59.460 | Right.

03:53:59.860 | But still there is a path that doesn't

03:54:02.500 | include Hamas.

03:54:03.300 | So make a deal with Fatah that runs

03:54:06.180 | the best West bank.

03:54:07.700 | Then they get, right now Fatah went into

03:54:11.940 | Gaza Strip, they wouldn't be able to manage

03:54:14.380 | it because they don't have enough credibility.

03:54:16.020 | They're mainly seen as in cahoots with the

03:54:18.380 | occupiers, whereas Hamas is hardcore and

03:54:21.220 | fighting against the occupiers.

03:54:23.140 | But if Fatah delivers a peace, not only a

03:54:26.820 | peace deal, but a Palestinian state, then

03:54:29.820 | they come in as heroes.

03:54:31.420 | So you make the deal with them.

03:54:33.300 | You let them run the Gaza Strip and you

03:54:36.020 | empower them to drive out Hamas.

03:54:38.140 | That way they do your dirty work for

03:54:41.540 | you in a sense, right?

03:54:42.580 | But good, because Hamas is a terrorist

03:54:44.220 | organization, they're not helpful.

03:54:46.220 | And especially if the Palestinians get a

03:54:48.660 | state, the violence has to stop immediately.

03:54:52.180 | That's the whole point.

03:54:53.260 | The trade is you get a state,

03:54:55.660 | Israel gets safety and peace.

03:54:57.860 | So no more rockets than Israel.

03:54:59.700 | No more rockets.

03:55:00.740 | If you do any other rockets when, and Israel

03:55:04.420 | does the barbaric thing they just did, even

03:55:07.580 | I would say, Hey brother, we had a peace deal.

03:55:09.700 | Okay.

03:55:10.380 | So if you violate a peace deal and you do a

03:55:13.300 | bomb, they're going to do a bomb and their

03:55:14.580 | bomb is much larger.

03:55:15.700 | Okay.

03:55:16.380 | So that, and by the way, can it work?

03:55:19.740 | It already has worked.

03:55:21.060 | The Israel already did it with, with Egypt.

03:55:23.540 | So Egypt was a hundred times Hamas.

03:55:27.220 | Egypt gathered all the Arab armies and

03:55:30.780 | actually physically invaded Israel when

03:55:32.540 | Israel could lose.

03:55:33.620 | And they did it several times.

03:55:35.140 | And Lex at the time, all, not just the right,

03:55:39.740 | like the, the Warhawks, but most people

03:55:42.780 | thought there's no way Egypt will keep that

03:55:45.580 | peace deal.

03:55:46.080 | Oh, they're suckers.

03:55:47.980 | We're giving them the Sinai Peninsula

03:55:50.500 | back, and then they're just going to keep

03:55:52.900 | bombing and attacking us.

03:55:54.060 | There hasn't been a single bomb from

03:55:55.620 | Egypt since the peace deal.

03:55:56.860 | Peace deals work.

03:55:58.380 | War gets you more war.

03:56:00.420 | Peace deals get you peace.

03:56:02.220 | And, and if you should never, this is

03:56:05.100 | true of all of life.

03:56:06.260 | Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

03:56:09.220 | So if you're saying, well, I'm not positive

03:56:12.220 | that a peace deal is going to be perfect.

03:56:14.060 | And, and 12 more rockets might be fired.

03:56:16.820 | Well, brother, what's, what do we have now?

03:56:19.460 | Right.

03:56:20.180 | We have endless rockets now.

03:56:21.660 | If Israel is supposed to be a safe haven

03:56:24.260 | for Jews and I get it and I want it, okay.

03:56:26.820 | Then become a safe haven, the way that

03:56:30.940 | you're a safe haven is stop the occupation.

03:56:34.460 | It's not complicated.

03:56:35.980 | And, and the reason they're not, let's be

03:56:38.700 | honest, the reason the right wing government

03:56:40.380 | of Israel is not stopping the occupation

03:56:42.300 | is because they want to take more and more land.

03:56:45.020 | And so they have throughout time taken

03:56:48.260 | way more of the West bank than they had

03:56:50.140 | originally.

03:56:51.020 | And now Netanyahu is saying, I want a

03:56:54.300 | corridor at the, in the middle of Gaza.

03:56:57.540 | And I want a corridor at the border of Egypt.

03:57:00.180 | Now we're back to occupying Gaza physically,

03:57:03.260 | let alone through power and et cetera.

03:57:05.620 | So Bibi has to go.

03:57:08.620 | Definitely.

03:57:09.780 | What's the role of US in making a peace

03:57:14.700 | deal like that happen?

03:57:17.380 | It's going to sound outlandish, but I

03:57:20.060 | can get you a ceasefire almost overnight.

03:57:23.020 | If Bibi's gone and because the Israeli

03:57:26.380 | negotiators have said publicly, plea not

03:57:29.020 | publicly got leaked and it was an Israeli

03:57:30.900 | press, you have to give us a little bit of

03:57:34.180 | wiggle room.

03:57:34.700 | If you don't give us a little bit of wiggle

03:57:36.220 | room, obviously they're not going to do the

03:57:37.940 | deal.

03:57:38.340 | And he's like, I know, right.

03:57:41.020 | That's why he's not giving them the wiggle

03:57:42.420 | room.

03:57:42.660 | So don't ask for land in Gaza, get the hell

03:57:46.060 | out of Gaza, you just ceasefire.

03:57:47.740 | That's the easy part.

03:57:48.780 | So the hard part is the occupation,

03:57:52.500 | ending the occupation.

03:57:53.380 | But even that I can get it to you in two

03:57:55.180 | months, as long as Israel actually wants

03:57:57.860 | a deal.

03:57:58.220 | So go to an election, get rid of Netanyahu,

03:58:01.940 | put in, uh, you know, um, Benny Gantz.

03:58:05.540 | Is Benny Gantz an angel?

03:58:06.820 | No, he's the one that ordered all the

03:58:08.340 | bombings of Gaza to begin with.

03:58:09.860 | Right.

03:58:10.220 | He's look, I, Benny Gantz has got massive

03:58:14.860 | war crimes on his record.

03:58:16.300 | So don't worry.

03:58:17.260 | He's not a softie.

03:58:18.300 | Okay.

03:58:18.900 | But he's not my favorite guy in the world

03:58:21.420 | to say the least, but Benny Gantz can do a

03:58:23.900 | peace deal if he wants to.

03:58:25.100 | So look, only one group of people can

03:58:29.020 | actually settle this.

03:58:29.940 | Well, it's actually two groups of people.

03:58:32.020 | One is the Israeli population.

03:58:33.700 | You voted someone who wants to do a peace

03:58:35.940 | deal, you'll get a peace deal.

03:58:37.140 | Okay.

03:58:37.820 | Number two is the American president.

03:58:40.380 | So if I'm the American president, I'm

03:58:42.780 | saying in a hypothetical, right.

03:58:44.020 | Or any American president that actually

03:58:45.460 | wants to get a peace deal done, you just

03:58:49.100 | say, I'm going to cut the funding.

03:58:49.940 | Israel will do the deal immediately.

03:58:51.660 | They don't say they want to cut the

03:58:53.660 | funding because AIPAC gives them a hundred

03:58:55.180 | million dollars.

03:58:55.820 | It's not complicated.

03:58:58.100 | Not 1% complicated.

03:59:00.420 | Yeah.

03:59:01.380 | So Lex, tell me this.

03:59:02.740 | Okay.

03:59:03.220 | So if the U S president said, uh, I'm

03:59:06.620 | going to cut the funding.

03:59:07.380 | Do you think that it might have a giant

03:59:09.820 | problem for Netanyahu?

03:59:10.940 | Might it hurt his government?

03:59:12.100 | Might they have to go to an election?

03:59:13.900 | Would Israeli politicians, let alone

03:59:15.900 | the population begin to really, really

03:59:18.020 | worry that they're going to lose an

03:59:19.380 | enormous source of funding and weapons?

03:59:21.220 | Yeah, absolutely.

03:59:23.220 | Absolutely.

03:59:23.660 | So why wouldn't we use our leverage?

03:59:25.300 | It's crazy not to use our leverage.

03:59:27.300 | Yeah.

03:59:28.900 | Uh, and this is where we go back to

03:59:33.540 | the steel man of Trump.

03:59:34.620 | It feels like he's the only one crazy

03:59:36.340 | enough to, to use that leverage by crazy.

03:59:39.580 | I mean, in a good kind of sense, bold

03:59:41.820 | enough, not giving a shit about convention,

03:59:44.220 | not giving a shit about pressures and money

03:59:46.260 | and influence and all that kind of stuff.

03:59:47.820 | Yes.

03:59:49.380 | But with the biggest asterisk in the

03:59:51.180 | history of the world, which is 12% chance

03:59:54.060 | he does that, and that's great, but in

03:59:56.780 | huge chance, he does the opposite and he

03:59:59.700 | goes, let's call it 80 again, 80%.

04:00:03.100 | Oh yeah.

04:00:03.740 | Uh, Miriam wanted me to give Israel,

04:00:05.780 | West Bank to Israel.

04:00:07.060 | So you have it guys.

04:00:07.940 | Now you just occupy the whole thing forever.

04:00:09.860 | Okay.

04:00:11.220 | Ah, giant war.

04:00:12.620 | Oh yeah.

04:00:13.020 | I'm going to prove how tough I am.

04:00:14.260 | I'm going to nuke Iran.

04:00:15.100 | Oh no.

04:00:15.940 | What are you doing?

04:00:16.780 | What are you doing?

04:00:17.180 | Like Trump is a massive risk.

04:00:20.100 | He's an enormous amount of risk.

04:00:21.740 | If you were running a company and not a

04:00:23.420 | country, would you hire Trump as your CEO?

04:00:26.060 | Everyone watching just screamed inside

04:00:28.780 | their heads, no, okay.

04:00:31.220 | You would never, they take that

04:00:32.780 | kind of risk with your company.

04:00:34.020 | You've got an 80% chance.

04:00:35.700 | The guy's going to blow up the company.

04:00:37.020 | You're no way, no way.

04:00:38.980 | And you know it too.

04:00:40.340 | If you're, especially if you're a businessman,

04:00:42.860 | you know, you're not going to hire that loose

04:00:44.620 | cannon to run your company.

04:00:45.820 | It's, it's unacceptable risk, but you're not wrong.

04:00:49.580 | We talked about it earlier, but as part of that

04:00:52.220 | risk, there's a sliver in there that he could

04:00:54.860 | accidentally do the right thing.

04:00:56.020 | We talked a lot about hope in this

04:00:58.340 | conversation, zooming out.

04:01:00.500 | What gives you hope about the future of this

04:01:02.340 | whole thing of humanity, not just the United

04:01:04.700 | States of us humans on earth.

04:01:06.500 | So why am I center left and not center right?

04:01:09.380 | It gets to that question.

04:01:10.420 | So you look at the polling, not just here

04:01:14.100 | in America, but in almost any country.

04:01:15.940 | And it almost always breaks out to

04:01:18.100 | two-thirds of one-third, right?

04:01:19.780 | Two-thirds of the people say, let's be

04:01:23.700 | empathetic, let's share, let's be, let's do

04:01:27.300 | equality, justice, let's be fair, right?

04:01:29.980 | One-third goes, no, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me.

04:01:32.940 | Okay.

04:01:33.540 | That's just the nature of humanity.

04:01:34.860 | And so, and usually the same third goes, no

04:01:38.980 | change, and the other two-thirds go, well,

04:01:41.820 | some change, right?

04:01:43.620 | So, because if you don't do any change,

04:01:46.900 | you're, you're never going to get to the

04:01:48.380 | right answer for the wisdom of the crowd

04:01:50.260 | to work, for free markets to work, for

04:01:51.860 | everything to work, you have to keep changing

04:01:53.980 | because the times change and the culture

04:01:56.340 | changes and the situation changes, right?

04:01:58.380 | So that's why there's amendments in the

04:02:01.260 | constitution, because you need to be able to

04:02:03.500 | change the document from time to time.

04:02:05.220 | Be careful with it, right?

04:02:06.900 | But you need to allow for an avenue for change.

04:02:09.500 | So now why does the one-third keep winning

04:02:13.820 | in so many different places?

04:02:15.220 | Because they have more money and power.

04:02:17.460 | And by the way, if you're more selfish,

04:02:19.140 | you're more likely to get more money and power.

04:02:22.700 | Right.

04:02:23.300 | And I wish that weren't the case, but it is.

04:02:25.420 | And it, these are not blanket rules.

04:02:27.860 | They're on average.

04:02:28.900 | So that third winds up winning in so many

04:02:33.380 | circumstances, but the bottom line is we are

04:02:36.620 | a species that requires consent.

04:02:39.260 | So, I mean, I'm a stone cold atheist.

04:02:44.420 | So, uh, so I don't think we're kind of like apes.

04:02:48.500 | I think we are apes.

04:02:50.460 | Okay.

04:02:51.500 | And so, and all the scientists out there

04:02:54.740 | are going, well, of course we are.

04:02:56.180 | Everyone else is going, that's crazy.

04:02:58.660 | Okay.

04:02:59.740 | So when you look at it as a species,

04:03:02.340 | different species react in different ways.

04:03:04.180 | Snakes have no empathy cause it's not in

04:03:05.820 | their DNA.

04:03:06.500 | They, and that's why we have a sense of

04:03:09.820 | what a snake does.

04:03:10.780 | Right.

04:03:11.220 | So for good news is for higher level apes

04:03:14.940 | like us, bonobos, chimpanzees, and humans,

04:03:17.420 | we all roughly want consent.

04:03:20.700 | So a chimpanzee, for example, is, has a

04:03:24.180 | violent, uh, you know, reputation and they

04:03:26.620 | are violent and unfortunately we're pretty

04:03:28.780 | close to them.

04:03:29.380 | Uh, but what people don't know is a leader

04:03:33.260 | doesn't win through violence, especially for

04:03:35.340 | bonobos.

04:03:35.940 | They lead, they win by picking lice off of

04:03:38.820 | other chimpanzees, by going and doing favors,

04:03:42.020 | going to a hunt, getting food and giving it

04:03:43.620 | to someone else because what they're gathering

04:03:45.980 | is the consent of the governed and that's how

04:03:49.140 | you become the alpha.

04:03:50.100 | You don't do it through physical dominance,

04:03:52.460 | you do it through consent.

04:03:53.580 | So that's how we're hardwired.

04:03:55.860 | That's in our DNA.

04:03:56.980 | That two thirds in the long run will win and

04:04:00.780 | that, and we will have empathy, we will have

04:04:03.260 | change and that's the hope that we're all

04:04:05.780 | looking for.

04:04:06.300 | Hope has got the numbers, it seems like.

04:04:11.660 | Yeah.

04:04:12.460 | And in fact, one more thing Lex, look at

04:04:15.580 | history, hope and change always win.

04:04:19.700 | And so again, conservers don't catch feelings.

04:04:24.060 | There is a need for conservers because you

04:04:26.100 | have to balance things out.

04:04:27.380 | If you just had, even though wonderful two

04:04:30.060 | thirds, that still wouldn't be the ideal system.

04:04:32.460 | You need, you need a Winston Churchill.

04:04:34.420 | If you're in the middle of world war two, you

04:04:36.420 | need someone to say regulating, you know, six

04:04:39.300 | inspections of the elevators is too many, right?

04:04:41.780 | So you need that balance and conservatives

04:04:44.300 | have a role and it's a really important role.

04:04:46.140 | But having said that they're assigned to losing

04:04:50.980 | throughout history because they're fighting

04:04:53.060 | on losing ground.

04:04:54.060 | A conservative says no change, but the world

04:04:57.340 | is constantly changing.

04:04:59.340 | So they're destined to lose.

04:05:01.140 | That's why the founding fathers won against

04:05:03.940 | the British monarchy.

04:05:05.380 | That's why the civil rights movement won.

04:05:07.500 | They didn't win overnight.

04:05:08.540 | It took them a hundred years to get equal

04:05:10.500 | rights, let alone pass slavery, right?

04:05:13.300 | So we won on women's rights.

04:05:15.340 | We won on gay rights.

04:05:16.460 | We keep winning, but every snapshot in time

04:05:21.180 | makes it feel like we're losing.

04:05:22.820 | There's a bad guy in charge.

04:05:24.860 | We aren't living under corporate rule, et cetera.

04:05:27.940 | But in the long tide of history, change always

04:05:30.820 | wins, so the empathetic, generally speaking left

04:05:36.060 | wing, but again, don't worry about the titles,

04:05:39.020 | right, people get obsessed with the labels.

04:05:41.020 | The two thirds that's empathetic, that includes

04:05:43.180 | a lot of right-wingers, right?

04:05:44.580 | You win at the end in history every single time.

04:05:48.980 | So we fight forward.

04:05:50.900 | We, we, we're tough when we need to be.

04:05:54.540 | We need that willpower to win any fight.

04:05:56.740 | Right.

04:05:57.100 | But we're civil and respectful to the other

04:05:59.620 | side because they are us.

04:06:01.340 | So progressives all the time, we say, look,

04:06:05.900 | and I, this is like the ending of my book,

04:06:08.180 | which is we, for conservatives, you have a

04:06:12.140 | lot of empathy for inside the wagons.

04:06:14.420 | So conservatives are great to their family,

04:06:17.060 | generally speaking, to their community, to

04:06:19.740 | their church, to anyone that's inside the

04:06:21.820 | wagons, but they have, they set up electric

04:06:25.380 | fences and barbed wire around their wagons.

04:06:28.220 | So if you're on the outside, you're the

04:06:29.900 | others, and you're going to get electrified

04:06:31.820 | and it's constant, right?

04:06:34.020 | And so I like to think the left wing

04:06:36.900 | has wider wagons.

04:06:39.420 | So we view the world as more us and not you.

04:06:42.460 | But the good news of that is if we win,

04:06:46.020 | we're not going to do Medicare for only the

04:06:48.700 | left, right?

04:06:50.260 | We're going to do Medicare for all.

04:06:52.140 | You're all going to get universal healthcare.

04:06:54.540 | We're going to do higher wages for all.

04:06:56.660 | The right wing is not going to be left out.

04:06:58.460 | And if we're, and Lex, I can tell you a fun

04:07:02.380 | story, it's, it's about my family and, and

04:07:07.740 | I'm sure that parts of it are apocryphal

04:07:09.900 | from, because it's from like 500 years ago.

04:07:12.020 | Um, but, uh, but it gives you a sense of

04:07:15.780 | the, the old Mark Twain quote, if it's really

04:07:19.500 | Mark Twain's, of change happens really

04:07:22.060 | gradually and then all of a sudden, so my mom's

04:07:27.860 | last name in Turkish is Yavasha, it means

04:07:30.500 | slowly, it's a weird name, even in Turkish.

04:07:33.060 | And so one day we're walking past the mosque

04:07:36.380 | in Istanbul when I'm a kid and it says on the

04:07:39.860 | mosque, Yavasha, we're like, what is this?

04:07:43.540 | Okay.

04:07:44.300 | So it's a small little mosque.

04:07:45.620 | We go inside and my dad starts asking

04:07:47.900 | their mom questions.

04:07:48.900 | Okay.

04:07:49.780 | So he says, why is the mosque named that?

04:07:53.220 | And he said, well, do you don't know?

04:07:56.300 | And he said, because my dad said, my mom,

04:07:58.700 | my wife's name is, last name is Yavasha.

04:08:00.580 | He's like, oh my God.

04:08:01.420 | And he's like, your ancestor was the

04:08:05.460 | admiral of the Ottoman Navy when they

04:08:07.980 | conquered Constantinople.

04:08:09.460 | Okay.

04:08:10.940 | So grandpa from five, 600 years ago came

04:08:16.300 | up with the idea.

04:08:16.940 | So you can't ever conquer Constantinople

04:08:19.100 | because there's a giant chain in the,

04:08:20.540 | underneath the Bosphorus, all the ships

04:08:22.580 | get stuck on the chain.

04:08:23.500 | There's cannons on both sides, half the

04:08:25.460 | ancient navies in the world are at the bottom

04:08:27.140 | of the Bosphorus, right?

04:08:28.380 | So it hasn't been conquered in over a

04:08:30.420 | thousand years, nobody thinks it can be

04:08:31.860 | conquered.

04:08:32.220 | Grandpa comes up with the idea of why don't

04:08:34.660 | we build giant wooden planks over land and

04:08:39.300 | grease them and pass our fleet over land onto

04:08:43.380 | the other side.

04:08:44.140 | Everybody goes, because whenever anybody

04:08:46.500 | poses a new idea, no matter how logical it

04:08:48.660 | is, they go, oh, that's impossible.

04:08:49.900 | No way it's going to work.

04:08:50.820 | Oh, you're crazy.

04:08:51.980 | This is an unconquerable city.

04:08:53.220 | What are you guys even doing?

04:08:54.100 | Everyday Mehmed the Conqueror comes up to

04:08:56.620 | grandpa and says, all right, how's your plan

04:09:00.420 | to do this project going?

04:09:01.940 | And grandpa says, slowly.

04:09:03.980 | And he names him commander slowly.

04:09:08.420 | And one night after the whole thing's done,

04:09:11.860 | they passed the entire Ottoman fleet over

04:09:14.740 | the land, wind up in the middle of the

04:09:18.100 | Bosporus and the Holy Roman Empire concedes.

04:09:22.340 | They surrender because change happens really

04:09:25.260 | gradually and then all of a sudden.

04:09:27.180 | Good story.

04:09:28.420 | Well, Cenk, thank you for fighting for that

04:09:32.900 | change for many years now, for over two decades

04:09:35.700 | now, and thank you for talking today.

04:09:38.500 | Appreciate it, Lex.

04:09:39.940 | Thank you for having the conversation.

04:09:41.140 | Thanks for listening to this conversation

04:09:43.620 | with Cenk Uygur.

04:09:44.340 | To support this podcast, please check out our

04:09:46.340 | sponsors in the description.

04:09:48.500 | And now let me leave you with some

04:09:50.060 | words from Hannah Arend.

04:09:51.860 | Totalitarianism is never content to rule by

04:09:56.020 | external means, namely through the state and

04:09:59.500 | a machinery of violence.

04:10:00.900 | Thanks to its peculiar ideology and the role

04:10:04.380 | assigned to it in the apparatus of coercion,

04:10:07.180 | totalitarianism has discovered a means of

04:10:10.260 | dominating and terrorizing human beings from

04:10:13.860 | within.

04:10:14.380 | Thank you for listening.

04:10:17.020 | I hope to see you next time.

04:10:19.060 | [END]

04:10:21.060 | [END]

04:10:23.060 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Cenk Uygur: Trump vs Harris, Progressive Politics, Communism & Capitalism | Lex Fridman Podcast #441

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