How to Avoid Unnecessary Dopamine Peaks With "Dopamine Stacking" | Dr. Andrew Huberman
00:00:00.000 | [silence]
00:00:02.600 | I love to exercise.
00:00:04.160 | I know to some people this might seem foreign,
00:00:06.720 | but I love to exercise.
00:00:08.400 | I love to do resistance training.
00:00:09.780 | I love to run.
00:00:11.400 | I am not one of those people
00:00:13.080 | that doesn't like the experience of exercising,
00:00:16.080 | but likes the feeling afterwards, quote unquote.
00:00:18.480 | I hear that a lot.
00:00:19.320 | I don't like to exercise,
00:00:20.280 | but I love the way I feel afterwards.
00:00:21.880 | I love physical training,
00:00:23.840 | and I love the way I feel afterwards,
00:00:26.000 | but I mostly love the feeling during.
00:00:28.840 | I don't know why I'm wired that way.
00:00:30.680 | I can't say that I'm somebody
00:00:32.300 | who likes to do hard things across the board.
00:00:34.840 | There are plenty of difficult things in life that I dread
00:00:37.440 | or that I'm sort of meh about,
00:00:39.840 | but for me, hard exercise, intense exercise
00:00:43.620 | of a particular kind, resistance training
00:00:45.560 | and running in particular, both give me a yum, yes.
00:00:50.360 | I love this kind of feeling.
00:00:51.800 | And yes, it persists for me quite a long while afterwards,
00:00:55.540 | both for sake of the way that it changes my neurochemistry,
00:00:58.000 | but also my sense of satisfaction,
00:00:59.480 | but I just simply love it.
00:01:01.720 | Now, years ago, I discovered that if I drink
00:01:04.600 | a cup of black coffee or an Americano or a double espresso
00:01:08.320 | or some yerba mate,
00:01:09.920 | that my workouts can be quite a bit more intense.
00:01:12.200 | I can run further.
00:01:13.720 | And then I also discovered
00:01:15.280 | that if I were to take a pre-workout energy drink,
00:01:18.460 | or I took, say, 300 milligrams of alpha-GPC
00:01:22.040 | and 500 milligrams of phenolethylamine,
00:01:25.160 | and perhaps even 500 milligrams of L-tyrosine,
00:01:28.060 | and perhaps did that alongside the caffeine
00:01:30.080 | and the yerba mate, then yes, absolutely.
00:01:32.700 | I really liked those workouts.
00:01:34.300 | I could be like a laser in terms of focus.
00:01:36.480 | I could exert even more effort, put on some music,
00:01:39.740 | and I could achieve even better performance.
00:01:43.180 | And then I also discovered that I could export
00:01:46.140 | that protocol of caffeine, yerba mate,
00:01:48.840 | and various supplements to my cognitive work.
00:01:50.720 | So when I was studying or writing papers
00:01:52.640 | or writing grants or in the laboratory,
00:01:54.760 | when I was doing experiments with my hands in those days,
00:01:57.320 | cutting brain tissue and staining it
00:01:58.720 | and working really long hours,
00:02:00.200 | and I discovered that all of those things,
00:02:03.440 | all of those behaviors compounded with my love of exercise
00:02:06.640 | and my love of doing science
00:02:08.560 | and gave me these big peaks in what, to me,
00:02:12.120 | felt like even important experiences.
00:02:14.520 | They felt, you know, unlike anything else.
00:02:17.040 | They were just so, so peak in their nature,
00:02:20.560 | which was great, and it did indeed enhance my performance.
00:02:23.800 | However, while it did not create a dependency
00:02:27.700 | for those different substances,
00:02:30.040 | caffeine, supplements, et cetera,
00:02:32.280 | what I noticed was that in the days
00:02:35.280 | and sometimes weekends afterwards,
00:02:36.820 | even though for much of my career,
00:02:38.340 | I confess I've worked weekends as well,
00:02:40.300 | but I would notice that I'd experience
00:02:42.060 | a real trough in energy.
00:02:43.760 | I just would not feel that good.
00:02:45.680 | And then if I kept up those behaviors consistently
00:02:49.580 | and I was consistently adding in these other,
00:02:52.240 | let's just call them what they are, dopamine-releasing
00:02:54.960 | or stimulating behaviors and substances,
00:02:57.640 | that my enthusiasm for physical training or running
00:03:01.520 | or for doing experiments actually started to diminish.
00:03:04.480 | And this was really discouraging to me at the time
00:03:06.360 | because I started to think, okay, maybe I'm burnt out.
00:03:08.240 | Maybe I have adrenal burnout,
00:03:09.480 | which by the way, doesn't exist, folks.
00:03:11.040 | Your adrenals don't burn out.
00:03:12.360 | There is something called adrenal insufficiency syndrome.
00:03:14.760 | You can overstimulate your system
00:03:16.920 | by way of too much adrenaline, epinephrine,
00:03:19.600 | and norepinephrine, but that's a separate thing.
00:03:21.960 | There's no such thing as adrenal burnout per se,
00:03:25.000 | but I didn't know that.
00:03:26.000 | So I thought, gosh, I'm really burnt out.
00:03:27.580 | When in fact, it's now obvious to me what I was doing.
00:03:31.360 | I was combining too many dopamine-releasing
00:03:34.240 | or stimulating behaviors and substances
00:03:36.920 | for things that I already enjoy doing as behaviors,
00:03:39.800 | namely exercise and doing experiments,
00:03:42.440 | anything related to science, actually.
00:03:44.960 | So what this means is not to avoid taking things
00:03:49.800 | or doing things that amplify your amount of dopamine,
00:03:53.120 | but to be very cautious about how often one does that
00:03:56.120 | and how many different dopamine-stimulating behaviors
00:03:59.240 | or compounds one stacks,
00:04:01.080 | especially in terms of taking those things
00:04:04.960 | or stacking those things in and around behaviors
00:04:08.480 | that you already really enjoy doing.
00:04:10.240 | I was essentially just creating another version
00:04:13.060 | of the kids in nursery school or first grade
00:04:15.720 | with the Gold Star experiment.
00:04:18.320 | I was basically just doing the exact same thing.
00:04:20.560 | And when I realized that and I changed my relationship
00:04:24.520 | to those compounds, I didn't eliminate them altogether,
00:04:27.660 | but I started realizing, for instance,
00:04:30.140 | that I didn't need to double up on yerba mate
00:04:33.920 | and coffee every workout.
00:04:35.740 | Sometimes I would do one, sometimes I would do the other.
00:04:38.280 | Frankly, I always do one or the other.
00:04:40.400 | It's rare that I ever do any kind of physical training
00:04:42.760 | without some caffeine first.
00:04:44.080 | And I do my physical training typically
00:04:45.880 | in the early part of the day, so that's fine.
00:04:47.340 | It doesn't interfere with my sleep.
00:04:49.520 | I might do a hike without caffeine,
00:04:51.260 | but if I'm in a weight trainer, I'm going to run.
00:04:53.760 | I tend to drink coffee beforehand or have yerba mate.
00:04:57.620 | Or if I occasionally, meaning about once every third,
00:05:01.320 | sometimes every other,
00:05:02.580 | but usually about every third workout,
00:05:04.120 | I'll take 300 milligrams of alpha-GPC.
00:05:07.220 | Maybe occasionally, maybe every third or fourth workout.
00:05:12.080 | And these are resistance workouts, mind you, not running.
00:05:15.240 | I'll take 500 milligrams of l-tyrosine
00:05:17.200 | or more typically 500 milligrams of phenolethylamine.
00:05:20.640 | And very, very rarely, maybe once every two or three months,
00:05:23.520 | I might stack all of those things together
00:05:25.420 | prior to a workout.
00:05:26.840 | But of course, I'm always mindful to also include workouts
00:05:30.620 | or runs or bouts of cognitive work.
00:05:33.200 | So that could be grant writing, prepping for a podcast,
00:05:35.320 | et cetera, where I don't do anything prior.
00:05:38.100 | Maybe just my caffeine because I have a baseline level
00:05:40.360 | of caffeine that I use each day to function.
00:05:42.640 | Like many people, there's a baseline level of caffeine
00:05:45.380 | that just allows us to function
00:05:47.120 | if we're a perpetual user of caffeine.
00:05:48.720 | I talked a lot about this on the episode in caffeine.
00:05:51.400 | But the key here is be cautious.
00:05:54.880 | I would say be very cautious about stacking and layering
00:05:58.560 | in too many dopamine peak inducing behaviors
00:06:02.680 | all at once on a regular basis.
00:06:04.920 | The key point here is if you are somebody
00:06:06.880 | that can engage in these intrinsically joyful activities
00:06:10.040 | for you, these activities that you're really motivated
00:06:12.020 | to do, whether or not it's skiing or playing music
00:06:13.980 | or dancing, et cetera, without the need to layer
00:06:16.640 | in additional dopamine releasing mechanisms
00:06:20.280 | or compounds or activities,
00:06:22.900 | well then I highly recommend you do that
00:06:25.040 | because then you are essentially making yourself
00:06:28.160 | one of those fortunate few
00:06:30.000 | that does not require additional stimuli
00:06:33.560 | and therefore can hold onto that pleasure,
00:06:36.400 | can hold onto that intrinsic pleasure and motivation
00:06:38.840 | to engage in these behaviors over time,
00:06:40.980 | which frankly there is no replacement for.
00:06:44.200 | There is no pill or bottle or potion or motivational speech
00:06:47.200 | or podcast or book that can replace intrinsic motivation.
00:06:52.200 | Intrinsic motivation is perhaps the holy grail
00:06:55.520 | of all human endeavors and behaviors
00:06:57.920 | because it encompasses so much of what brought us
00:07:00.200 | to this point in our species evolution.
00:07:02.040 | And also what brings each and every one of us
00:07:04.960 | closer and closer to our goals.
00:07:06.960 | And if it's happening with enjoyment
00:07:08.480 | without the need to layer in additional tools,
00:07:11.060 | well then you have really tapped into the source.
00:07:14.300 | And when I say the source,
00:07:15.340 | I don't mean in any kind of mystical way.
00:07:17.460 | I think it's quite clear by now
00:07:19.300 | that when we hear about chi from Eastern medicine
00:07:22.420 | or we talk about motivation, drive, and pursuit
00:07:25.260 | in Western neurobiological languages that relates to dopamine
00:07:28.820 | or we hear about the source,
00:07:30.500 | maybe in my podcast episode with the one and only
00:07:33.940 | Rick Rubin, incredibly productive music producer
00:07:37.060 | who's has just an unbelievable track record
00:07:40.460 | in terms of creative endeavors.
00:07:41.860 | And he talks about the source.
00:07:43.180 | We're really talking about the same thing,
00:07:45.540 | which is this set of circuits within us
00:07:47.820 | that allow us to identify what we want
00:07:50.100 | and then lean into effort.
00:07:51.580 | And then to do that in a persistent way
00:07:53.780 | that allows us to reach our goals.
00:07:55.140 | And if we can do that with an intrinsic sense of pleasure,
00:07:58.420 | well, that is nothing short of magic.
00:08:01.540 | [upbeat music]
00:08:04.960 | [upbeat music]
00:08:07.540 | you