Bogleheads® 2022 Conference –Michelle Singletary in conversation with Christine Benz
00:00:00.000 | (audience applauding)
00:00:03.160 | - Thank you all for joining us
00:00:07.560 | for our last session of the day.
00:00:09.360 | I think it's a really good capstone for this conference.
00:00:14.360 | I am so thrilled to introduce Michelle Singletary
00:00:18.520 | to all of you.
00:00:19.400 | I know many of you know Michelle from her long career.
00:00:23.280 | She is the personal finance columnist
00:00:25.140 | for the Washington Post.
00:00:26.840 | She writes a regular column.
00:00:28.160 | In fact, she texted me yesterday and said,
00:00:31.000 | I've got this last minute thing I'm working on.
00:00:33.800 | I'm on deadline.
00:00:34.640 | She's always on deadline,
00:00:36.120 | always writing really wonderful pieces of guidance
00:00:40.160 | for regular folks in the Washington Post.
00:00:43.960 | She has written four books,
00:00:45.440 | the latest of which is called
00:00:47.600 | "What to Do with Your Money When Crisis Hits,
00:00:49.800 | "A Survival Guide."
00:00:51.360 | Very well timed to coincide with the pandemic
00:00:53.980 | and all of the turmoil related to that.
00:00:56.200 | I remember Jeff and I talked to Michelle
00:00:58.520 | for the Longview podcast during that time.
00:01:01.680 | I think it was like April, May, 2020,
00:01:03.800 | and Michelle was such a calming presence.
00:01:07.960 | And I know that her readers really benefit for that.
00:01:10.840 | She has won numerous awards for her work
00:01:14.480 | over her long career.
00:01:15.980 | The most recent was a biggie,
00:01:18.080 | the 2022 Gerald Loeb Lifetime Achievement Award.
00:01:22.600 | The award is considered the highest honor
00:01:25.560 | in business journalism in the U.S.
00:01:27.480 | I'm choking up just talking about it.
00:01:29.320 | (audience applauding)
00:01:32.480 | It's a well-deserved award.
00:01:37.700 | I wanted Michelle here,
00:01:39.440 | she has a wealth of wisdom to offer on all things financial,
00:01:42.920 | but one thing that she writes about
00:01:44.560 | that I think is really differentiated
00:01:46.880 | is that she talks about kind of spreading financial wellness
00:01:50.800 | in her community and her world.
00:01:53.020 | And of course she does that through her work at the Post,
00:01:55.800 | but she does it in other ways within her community,
00:01:58.600 | within her family.
00:02:00.120 | And I'll just say that that's one thing
00:02:02.400 | that really excites me about Bogleheads,
00:02:04.460 | that you're all so well-versed in your own financial lives.
00:02:09.460 | And of course, picking up more and more acumen
00:02:12.400 | is always important,
00:02:13.240 | but I love the idea of deploying whoever's willing
00:02:17.220 | within this group out into the world
00:02:19.520 | to help make things better for people who need your help
00:02:23.040 | and who might benefit from your wisdom.
00:02:25.300 | So that's why I was thrilled that Michelle was willing
00:02:28.120 | to join us for this conversation.
00:02:30.920 | So Michelle, I'm hoping you can just start
00:02:33.980 | with your personal story and how you evolved
00:02:37.640 | into journalism and business journalism specifically.
00:02:41.040 | - Yeah, great.
00:02:41.880 | Well, first of all, thank you for being here.
00:02:43.640 | I know a lot of people had to leave to catch a plane,
00:02:45.400 | so I don't feel any kind of way about that.
00:02:47.480 | - Still a full house though.
00:02:48.320 | - I know, still a full house.
00:02:50.660 | And I, can I tell y'all, I didn't know I was in y'all club.
00:02:55.280 | I just, I mean, I'm ashamed to say
00:03:00.020 | that I didn't really embrace you all.
00:03:03.280 | And I came to this wonderful conference
00:03:05.280 | because I, you know, my husband and I have been indexing
00:03:09.360 | and very simple and forget it,
00:03:11.520 | and has created great wealth because of Vanguard.
00:03:16.640 | And that's very significant
00:03:18.240 | because our family doesn't have a lot of wealth.
00:03:21.680 | And because of Vanguard and the principles,
00:03:24.840 | we've been able to help family members go to college,
00:03:28.380 | buy their first home, you know, help them with cars.
00:03:31.760 | And so I'm right here with you
00:03:33.920 | and I didn't even know I was in the club.
00:03:35.980 | (audience laughing)
00:03:37.880 | So.
00:03:38.700 | (audience applauding)
00:03:42.400 | And normally in my normal day job,
00:03:44.200 | you know, I don't recommend different companies
00:03:46.600 | for the obvious reasons.
00:03:48.400 | But how do I get started in this?
00:03:49.840 | So really it goes back to my grandmother raised me
00:03:54.040 | and my siblings, there were five of us.
00:03:57.320 | And my parents, lots of issues abandoned us.
00:04:01.480 | We went to go, my grandmother saved us from foster care.
00:04:04.520 | And she was, if she believed in investing,
00:04:08.420 | she would be one of you guys.
00:04:10.800 | But my grandmother was so conservative.
00:04:13.340 | She didn't even buy bonds.
00:04:15.520 | The only bond she had was the bond adhesive for her dentures.
00:04:19.540 | (audience laughing)
00:04:21.680 | So, but she was a masterful money manager.
00:04:26.680 | Can you imagine five grandchildren?
00:04:29.920 | Her husband was an alcoholic,
00:04:32.000 | so he didn't always bring his money home.
00:04:34.200 | And yet she paid all her bills on time.
00:04:37.200 | She was an unbelievable saver.
00:04:40.800 | And she was never apologetic for what she couldn't give up.
00:04:45.640 | She never had any guilt that we were low income.
00:04:49.640 | And that's what she, that's the legacy left for me.
00:04:52.400 | And so I never realized that that would be my career
00:04:56.200 | because even as a child, I challenged my grandmother.
00:05:00.320 | I was the banker in my family.
00:05:03.480 | And I, my siblings would come to me
00:05:05.720 | 'cause they knew I always had money.
00:05:06.940 | I would do odd jobs or I'd find money on the,
00:05:09.080 | I'd pick up every penny on the ground.
00:05:11.600 | You know that rule that you're not supposed to pick it up
00:05:13.720 | if it's on the opposite side?
00:05:16.160 | I think that's just crazy.
00:05:18.320 | (audience laughing)
00:05:19.440 | It's a penny, pick it up.
00:05:22.440 | So, so, you know, and those pennies add up.
00:05:25.640 | So I always had money.
00:05:27.040 | And my siblings would ask to borrow money
00:05:29.520 | and I would sit them down like they were at a bank.
00:05:32.640 | Well, what do you need the money for?
00:05:34.720 | (audience laughing)
00:05:36.080 | And when do you expect to pay me back?
00:05:39.080 | And I would determine whether I'd give them the money
00:05:42.240 | based on what they wanted for.
00:05:43.520 | So you couldn't use my money to buy ice cream,
00:05:46.320 | but if you needed an extra pencil,
00:05:48.320 | I'm gonna give you the money.
00:05:49.920 | And you better give it back
00:05:51.120 | when you said you were gonna give it back,
00:05:53.280 | or I'm gonna run after you to hope,
00:05:55.480 | where's my money, where's my money?
00:05:56.920 | And you can imagine I was not the popular sibling.
00:06:00.100 | (audience laughing)
00:06:02.000 | And so when I got into journalism,
00:06:05.320 | I always love talking to people and finding out something.
00:06:09.440 | I'm very nosy, and that's really why I'm in journalism.
00:06:13.600 | And then I won a minority journalism scholarship
00:06:16.420 | to go to college, went to work for the Evening Sun
00:06:19.120 | in Baltimore, my hometown paper.
00:06:20.800 | And the business editor approached me
00:06:23.680 | because I've been covering religion.
00:06:25.760 | And because I'm a money person,
00:06:27.180 | I decided as a part of my religion beat
00:06:29.360 | to talk about economic development.
00:06:31.280 | And she noticed that.
00:06:32.320 | So she came over and she said,
00:06:33.360 | I want you for the business section.
00:06:35.080 | And I started to cry because at that time,
00:06:38.840 | I hope you're all not offended,
00:06:40.400 | the only people in the business section
00:06:42.220 | were old white guys who love this stuff.
00:06:47.220 | And then the old white guys who were ready to retire,
00:06:51.040 | and they didn't have to work
00:06:52.200 | after the markets closed or weekends.
00:06:55.680 | And so when she asked me, I thought it was a demotion.
00:06:59.480 | And so I was like, why y'all putting me back there?
00:07:03.280 | (audience laughing)
00:07:04.560 | And she said, no, I want to diversify the staff.
00:07:07.640 | I want to have younger business reporters.
00:07:09.880 | We want to write about more than just the markets
00:07:12.040 | of what businesses are growing.
00:07:13.640 | And so she put me on the bankruptcy beat.
00:07:16.520 | Who does that?
00:07:18.020 | (audience laughing)
00:07:19.200 | I mean, and the great thing about the bankruptcy beat
00:07:21.800 | is 'cause who covers bankruptcy?
00:07:23.560 | So the bankruptcy judges,
00:07:24.760 | normally judges and their clerks
00:07:26.240 | don't ever talk to reporters, right?
00:07:28.200 | But the bankruptcy judges were so excited
00:07:30.640 | that someone was interested in their work,
00:07:32.600 | they would invite me into their chambers.
00:07:35.080 | (audience laughing)
00:07:35.920 | I mean, to talk about chapter seven and 13,
00:07:38.240 | they were so excited that I was excited about it.
00:07:41.080 | And so I had like, you know,
00:07:43.400 | I scoped the Baltimore Sun and The Post on stories
00:07:49.240 | 'cause they would talk to me,
00:07:50.160 | and that's how I got into it.
00:07:51.480 | And little did I know
00:07:53.160 | that it really was the little Michelle Banker
00:07:55.920 | that was coming out.
00:07:57.320 | And then I got a master's degree at Hopkins,
00:07:59.520 | and then The Post came to calling,
00:08:02.320 | and you know, as they say, the rest is history.
00:08:04.760 | I've been working for The Post for more than 30 years.
00:08:08.200 | I know I look 29.
00:08:09.840 | (audience laughing)
00:08:13.080 | And it is where I live, what I dream,
00:08:17.760 | and the column is about doing all that you do,
00:08:21.720 | trying to get people to understand this money stuff
00:08:25.640 | that is very complicated and very scary
00:08:29.280 | and very confusing.
00:08:31.540 | But we all have to handle it.
00:08:33.800 | And that's been my mission and passion for the last,
00:08:37.440 | since I, the column is 25 years, since 25 years.
00:08:40.960 | And my first column was about my grandmother,
00:08:43.320 | how she taught me about money.
00:08:45.800 | And this little woman who didn't,
00:08:47.600 | she wouldn't know, she don't know beta, alpha,
00:08:50.600 | you know, ESG, she don't know none of that stuff.
00:08:53.520 | But, and I had to learn that part.
00:08:55.600 | I had to incorporate that in my life,
00:08:58.160 | but she put me on the road.
00:09:00.220 | And I love what the last panel talked about with,
00:09:03.040 | it's a lot about income and saving.
00:09:06.080 | And I'm telling you, I hate those columns where,
00:09:08.480 | if you just don't buy Starbucks coffee, you could be rich.
00:09:12.160 | Y'all all know that's not true.
00:09:13.740 | (audience laughing)
00:09:15.380 | I encourage people to get that expensive coffee
00:09:17.980 | 'cause if it's gonna keep you from slapping your coworker
00:09:20.580 | when you get to work, buy Starbucks coffee.
00:09:25.580 | Because it's gonna get you to keep your job
00:09:28.020 | so you have the money to invest.
00:09:30.300 | (audience laughing)
00:09:32.700 | - I went too long.
00:09:33.700 | - No, that was awesome.
00:09:34.700 | (audience laughing)
00:09:37.260 | - I wanted to talk to you about the fact
00:09:40.420 | that you're in touch with a lot of people
00:09:42.820 | about how they're feeling about their investments.
00:09:45.860 | Can you talk about the current environment
00:09:48.460 | where for the first time in quite a long while,
00:09:52.200 | we're seeing stocks and bonds sink at the same time.
00:09:55.840 | So people who thought they were doing all the right things
00:09:58.700 | and diversifying have seen their portfolios
00:10:01.780 | and incur some significant losses.
00:10:03.940 | So what kind of feedback are you getting
00:10:05.500 | from your readers in this environment?
00:10:07.260 | - Yeah, lots of people are scared.
00:10:08.780 | I mean, after the Great Recession and things were bad
00:10:11.980 | and then we had years and years of growth
00:10:14.100 | and you really didn't have to do much
00:10:16.140 | to make in the market, right?
00:10:17.300 | You could consider yourself brilliant
00:10:19.140 | and just be invested in whatever.
00:10:20.700 | And so we have a population of people
00:10:23.260 | who sort of believe that that's what always happens.
00:10:26.360 | And so you got to have 20% return at 30% return.
00:10:29.320 | And this whole conference,
00:10:30.880 | people talk about how boring index investing is,
00:10:34.640 | but let me tell you, I think boring is sexy.
00:10:38.760 | (audience laughing)
00:10:39.920 | My husband is boring and he is sexy.
00:10:43.920 | (audience laughing)
00:10:45.360 | He's cheap and he's sexy.
00:10:47.940 | (audience laughing)
00:10:48.960 | So that's what we are overcoming right now,
00:10:52.760 | where we had all this growth,
00:10:54.520 | where people didn't really have to do anything,
00:10:56.880 | that portfolio could be out of whack, whatever.
00:11:00.120 | And so the conversations I'm having with people is,
00:11:03.880 | listen, this is just a blip in history.
00:11:07.680 | Even the Great Depression ended, the Great Recession,
00:11:10.360 | it will end and many of us are going to live decades.
00:11:14.240 | And so they are so worried
00:11:16.480 | because we have hyped them up on stuff,
00:11:19.680 | crypto and everything has to be exciting.
00:11:22.560 | And game stock, and so now when we hit that bump,
00:11:26.040 | they're not prepared for that bump.
00:11:28.240 | We are, 'cause we've been through some bumps,
00:11:30.640 | we've been through some stuff.
00:11:31.960 | And so all I'm, they're worried about inflation,
00:11:34.720 | they're worried about the market, I get that.
00:11:36.600 | And so one thing I try to do is I don't say don't panic,
00:11:40.160 | 'cause that just doesn't help nobody.
00:11:41.760 | Go ahead and panic.
00:11:42.880 | (screams)
00:11:43.720 | (audience laughing)
00:11:44.840 | I panic, and I'm one of you all, I panic.
00:11:47.960 | You know, and I wasn't looking at my portfolio at all,
00:11:50.560 | 'cause I'd just be like, "Oh, Lord."
00:11:52.600 | But I know my husband, who's very calm,
00:11:56.280 | and I'm like panicking and, you know,
00:11:58.720 | "Oh, we're gonna go broke."
00:12:00.280 | We're not gonna go broke.
00:12:02.000 | And he says, "Wait a minute, don't you do this for a living?"
00:12:04.920 | (audience laughing)
00:12:07.080 | So I say, go ahead and scream,
00:12:10.480 | go ahead and feel what you need to feel,
00:12:12.320 | just don't make a decision based on that.
00:12:14.840 | And the lesson is that you gotta have everything else
00:12:19.400 | in your life in order.
00:12:21.320 | So you gotta not have debt.
00:12:23.240 | You gotta pay off that house before you retire.
00:12:25.400 | You gotta not take on all the student loan debt,
00:12:26.920 | 'cause if you didn't have all of that stuff,
00:12:29.160 | during the times that the markets are down,
00:12:31.080 | you can weather that storm.
00:12:33.480 | But if you got debt, and you got a mortgage,
00:12:35.880 | you're just stretching for, and you're not,
00:12:39.240 | all that stuff going on, and the market is crazy,
00:12:42.800 | that's why that mixing bowl of stuff
00:12:45.160 | makes people make bad decisions.
00:12:47.920 | But I scream, but we don't have any debt
00:12:50.760 | except for our mortgage, which I hope to pay off this year.
00:12:53.720 | We sent all three of our kids to college debt-free.
00:12:58.640 | You know, we use credit, but we pay it off.
00:13:01.240 | We do all things, so even if I lose 50%,
00:13:05.920 | we're gonna be okay, right?
00:13:08.120 | We're gonna be okay, we will adjust our life, right?
00:13:11.720 | And that's the message I think we have to tell people,
00:13:14.880 | that this is a long game,
00:13:16.600 | and this is just a blip in history.
00:13:19.920 | - So you mentioned your family, Michelle, your kids,
00:13:24.440 | three children, and it sounds like you and your husband
00:13:27.600 | have spent a lot of time inculcating them
00:13:31.120 | in the concepts of good financial management.
00:13:33.800 | Can you talk about, it sounds probably thrift
00:13:36.240 | and some of these other things,
00:13:37.600 | but what are the habits that you've tried to build in them
00:13:41.200 | and/or model out for them?
00:13:43.160 | - Yeah, so I'm very proud, all three of my kids
00:13:45.480 | are very frugal, very cheap, which we embrace that word,
00:13:48.960 | but my husband and I were very intentional
00:13:51.360 | about raising money-smart children,
00:13:53.720 | and so when they were growing up,
00:13:55.480 | we liked to make them suffer.
00:13:58.920 | (audience laughing)
00:14:00.160 | Not suffer, suffer.
00:14:02.640 | So we did not give them a bunch of stuff.
00:14:05.520 | If you opened up their closet when they were little,
00:14:08.240 | there was very little clothes.
00:14:09.760 | They had three pairs of shoes.
00:14:11.480 | I was raised by a Depression-era person,
00:14:13.280 | so I'm really from the Depression era.
00:14:15.280 | So we tried to not give them anything
00:14:18.640 | because we wanted them to just be kids,
00:14:21.560 | and we didn't give them cell phones,
00:14:23.360 | we didn't buy all the games and things like that.
00:14:26.080 | We just wanted them to live life with all the stuff,
00:14:30.040 | and so we had a lot of rules in our house.
00:14:33.120 | So one rule was, 'cause you know, kids watch television,
00:14:36.760 | so none of them ever had TVs in their rooms growing up
00:14:39.840 | at all, and we monitored that, not a lot of commercials.
00:14:43.640 | So we had a rule that when they did watch television,
00:14:45.840 | all these commercials.
00:14:47.120 | So we said, "You can get anything
00:14:49.360 | "that you see on a commercial."
00:14:51.560 | (audience laughing)
00:14:55.080 | And we actually pretty did stick to that.
00:14:56.720 | So my youngest, she's the bane of my existence.
00:14:59.440 | So she was watching something on TV,
00:15:01.760 | I'm in the kitchen cooking, I see her watching it,
00:15:04.040 | I see the thing come up, some doll or something,
00:15:06.400 | she comes in the kitchen, "Mommy, can I have?"
00:15:08.600 | I said, "Where'd you see it?"
00:15:10.240 | Now the kid is pretty smart.
00:15:11.720 | (audience laughing)
00:15:12.640 | Now she's my daughter.
00:15:13.920 | So she knows the rules.
00:15:15.760 | So she stood there, she closed her eyes,
00:15:18.480 | she tilted her head, and she said,
00:15:20.120 | "It came to me in a dream."
00:15:21.720 | (audience laughing)
00:15:24.720 | Parents are always telling me,
00:15:30.920 | "Well, how do I raise money smart kids?"
00:15:33.960 | There's one surefire way to raise money smart kids.
00:15:38.640 | Y'all ready to write this down?
00:15:39.920 | I know you are.
00:15:41.160 | No taking root.
00:15:42.520 | The one thing is to say no.
00:15:46.360 | Say no.
00:15:49.120 | And so one time my kid was asking for something,
00:15:52.280 | I don't know what it was,
00:15:53.520 | I don't never listen to what they want.
00:15:55.320 | It's like Charlie Brown's teacher.
00:15:57.080 | When they ask for something, all I hear is what?
00:16:00.040 | Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah.
00:16:01.480 | It's easy to say no
00:16:02.560 | if you don't hear what they asking for, right?
00:16:04.280 | (audience laughing)
00:16:05.960 | "Mommy, can I have?"
00:16:07.000 | I said no.
00:16:08.040 | So it's no plus a reason for the no,
00:16:10.960 | that was the second part of it, the reason for the no.
00:16:13.160 | So for our kids, it was to send them to college with no debt.
00:16:16.760 | So, "Mommy, can I have no?"
00:16:18.520 | And I have three words for you, college fund.
00:16:20.640 | Or two words for you, college fund.
00:16:21.920 | She said, "Mommy, can I have?
00:16:22.840 | "Mommy, can I have?"
00:16:23.880 | Two words for you, college fund.
00:16:25.200 | Or all my friends have it, Mommy.
00:16:26.800 | Two words for you, college fund.
00:16:28.600 | I know you have, 'cause she know we got money.
00:16:30.440 | I know you have the money.
00:16:31.800 | Two words for you, college fund.
00:16:33.200 | This went on for about 15 minutes, y'all.
00:16:35.400 | She was hot mad.
00:16:37.160 | (audience laughing)
00:16:38.080 | So finally, you know, after college fund, college fund,
00:16:40.200 | she said, "Well, I have two words for you now."
00:16:43.160 | I'm an old-fashioned parent.
00:16:44.560 | Now, I'm not gonna say what I was ready to do to her.
00:16:47.480 | She says, "I have two words for you, nursing home."
00:16:50.960 | (audience laughing)
00:16:53.960 | Right?
00:16:56.680 | Now, you boggle his understand, right?
00:17:01.240 | Like I said, that's why I'm saving for my retirement, right?
00:17:04.560 | So we denied, denied, denied.
00:17:08.040 | And I'm not saying that they were happy about it.
00:17:10.360 | They didn't have what their friends had.
00:17:11.840 | They didn't have the clothes that their friends had.
00:17:13.760 | They had, you know, one girl asked my daughter,
00:17:16.320 | "How come you wear the same pairs of jeans?"
00:17:18.320 | And I love her answer.
00:17:19.520 | She said, "Well, why are you worried about what,
00:17:21.160 | "that I have one pair of the same jeans?"
00:17:23.400 | And so, and we did put a dead book on our bedroom door,
00:17:27.520 | 'cause we knew they were gonna snuff us out in our sleep.
00:17:30.840 | (audience laughing)
00:17:34.320 | But when did I know that it worked?
00:17:36.880 | When my oldest, the first one, graduated from college.
00:17:40.600 | And we asked her to speak to a class.
00:17:43.840 | My husband and I do a marriage and money class at our church.
00:17:46.440 | We asked her to come in, 'cause everybody knew
00:17:48.320 | that our kids were all messed up,
00:17:49.700 | because of all the stories I told her.
00:17:51.200 | (audience laughing)
00:17:52.560 | So we had to bring her in as proof
00:17:54.120 | that they weren't all crazy.
00:17:56.360 | So she came in.
00:17:57.480 | She'd never told us this.
00:17:59.240 | She said, "Mom."
00:18:01.160 | She was telling the class.
00:18:02.800 | She said, when she graduated,
00:18:04.520 | all her friends were saying, "I got six months.
00:18:06.600 | "I got six months before those lulls kick in."
00:18:09.560 | And I don't have that.
00:18:10.400 | I don't have that.
00:18:11.760 | When I walked across the stage,
00:18:13.880 | I walked across in freedom.
00:18:15.800 | But she ain't never tell me this.
00:18:18.720 | (audience laughing)
00:18:21.720 | But that's how we rolled as parents.
00:18:28.920 | You know, I know, I tell a lot of stories,
00:18:30.600 | and y'all only have a short time,
00:18:31.720 | and all of us trying to catch a plane.
00:18:33.320 | But we just, we were very intentional.
00:18:37.080 | So, you know, we didn't go to the malls.
00:18:39.640 | In fact, it was like a ban in our house.
00:18:41.440 | If they wanted to go to the movies,
00:18:43.040 | they had to go to a movie that wasn't connected to a mall.
00:18:47.000 | They couldn't hang out at the mall.
00:18:49.000 | And so, the few times we went to the mall,
00:18:52.120 | my kid wanted one of those expensive pretzels.
00:18:54.400 | She had saved up for it,
00:18:55.840 | 'cause she knew I wasn't gonna buy it.
00:18:58.000 | She had a little purse and her little $5,
00:19:00.600 | and she went up to the counter,
00:19:01.880 | and she asked for the pretzel,
00:19:03.560 | and she gave the woman the $5.
00:19:05.400 | Now, she was smarting money,
00:19:06.680 | and the woman gave her back, I don't know, like 10 cents.
00:19:09.400 | She started to fall out, "Oh, where's all my money?"
00:19:13.880 | And there were like a long line,
00:19:15.480 | 'cause, you know, our auntie's pretzels,
00:19:16.680 | there's always a long line.
00:19:18.120 | Long line of people, and she was kerking out,
00:19:21.040 | like, "Where's the rest of my money, mommy?
00:19:22.840 | "Where's the rest of my money?"
00:19:24.400 | I said, "Well, that's what the pretzel costs."
00:19:26.040 | And she's crying, and she said, "I want my $5 back."
00:19:29.760 | And I'm looking at the woman, and she's looking at me,
00:19:31.800 | and I'm looking at her, and I'm saying,
00:19:32.840 | "Give her her $5 back."
00:19:34.320 | (audience laughing)
00:19:35.840 | And she did.
00:19:36.680 | She took the pretzel back, and she gave her her $5 back.
00:19:39.360 | And I could hear people behind me saying,
00:19:41.240 | "Well, why she just didn't buy the girl the pretzel?
00:19:43.360 | "Why she?"
00:19:44.200 | And I said, "Because I'm teaching her a lesson.
00:19:46.640 | "She wanted that $5 more than she wanted that pretzel."
00:19:50.520 | And you know, she remembered that story
00:19:52.360 | when she told the college story.
00:19:53.680 | She said, "I asked my mother for stuff.
00:19:55.480 | "We asked my dad for stuff, and they said no,
00:19:57.640 | "and it would tick me off.
00:19:59.000 | "But when I graduated, I was glad
00:20:01.200 | "'cause I didn't need that pretzel.
00:20:02.760 | "I didn't need that dress.
00:20:04.280 | "I didn't need that phone."
00:20:06.440 | But now she can be in a profession, she's a therapist.
00:20:09.040 | Now I'm making a lot of money,
00:20:10.320 | but I can be in a profession that God gifted me for
00:20:14.120 | because my parents said no.
00:20:15.920 | - Beautiful.
00:20:17.920 | (audience applauding)
00:20:21.080 | So one thing I wanna talk to you about, Michelle,
00:20:26.120 | is sort of moving beyond your immediate family.
00:20:30.040 | I know that many of us, I would guess many people
00:20:32.960 | in this room have loved ones in our lives
00:20:35.880 | who are not financially well, who need our help,
00:20:39.520 | maybe need funds, whatever.
00:20:42.280 | So I think a key challenge, if you're in that situation,
00:20:45.440 | and I've been in that situation,
00:20:47.200 | how do you help without over-helping
00:20:51.960 | and certainly without kind of imperiling
00:20:54.200 | your own financial life?
00:20:55.920 | Can you talk about kind of creating that balance
00:20:59.560 | and delivering financial assistance to others?
00:21:02.920 | - Yeah, it's really hard.
00:21:04.360 | You know, I'm a Christian, so there's a thing in the Bible
00:21:07.320 | about you can't be a prophet in your own land.
00:21:10.200 | And that's so true with your family.
00:21:11.920 | They don't wanna hear nothing you have to say
00:21:13.640 | most of the time.
00:21:15.480 | And so I had a lot of survivor's guilt.
00:21:19.280 | You know, I went to college, I got a good job,
00:21:21.280 | I'm making good money, and I felt guilty that I survived.
00:21:26.240 | And so initially, I would just hand out money, right?
00:21:29.760 | I wasn't discerning enough.
00:21:32.200 | And then I realized that people would be wasting my money.
00:21:34.880 | I'm frugal, I'm frugal, I breast all three of my kids,
00:21:39.880 | breastfed 'em 'cause the milk was free.
00:21:44.040 | I mean, I just, still wearing my maternity underwear
00:21:47.880 | and my oldest kid is 27.
00:21:50.680 | Don't I manage it now?
00:21:52.400 | I packed the good stuff for you all.
00:21:54.960 | (audience laughing)
00:21:56.640 | So, but then I realized I'm frugal, I'm doing the right thing
00:22:01.640 | and they're wasting my money.
00:22:03.880 | So my husband and I, we're big on rules.
00:22:06.840 | So we started to put in rules in place.
00:22:08.800 | We will help you for a down payment on a house.
00:22:11.440 | We will help your child go to college.
00:22:12.880 | So we offered everybody in our family,
00:22:15.600 | if your kid gets into college, we will pay for their books
00:22:18.720 | and, you know, incidentals for college.
00:22:21.120 | So we decided that that's what we do.
00:22:22.760 | We're not gonna pay for your irresponsibility.
00:22:25.240 | Now, if you fall, that doesn't mean
00:22:27.160 | that we're not gonna help you,
00:22:28.360 | but we're not gonna enable you
00:22:30.120 | to have bad financial decisions.
00:22:32.120 | And that works so well that,
00:22:35.120 | and the other thing is, if you come to us,
00:22:37.000 | you gotta show us a budget.
00:22:38.360 | You gotta show us how you're gonna get out
00:22:40.080 | of whatever his situation is.
00:22:41.280 | This is a whole thing.
00:22:43.040 | And so two things happen.
00:22:44.760 | People stop asking us for money
00:22:47.040 | 'cause they didn't wanna,
00:22:49.040 | like my niece would call up and I'd say,
00:22:50.920 | she'd ask for some money.
00:22:51.880 | I said, well, you know what, I'm showing you no budget.
00:22:54.120 | She hang up the phone.
00:22:55.200 | Save me $20, I'm okay.
00:22:58.200 | And so we try to invite them to things.
00:23:03.080 | My husband and I have a ministry at our church,
00:23:04.600 | a financial ministry at our church.
00:23:05.720 | We try to give them books and things like that.
00:23:08.240 | But I decided that I'm not gonna kill myself
00:23:11.400 | trying to make grown people do well.
00:23:14.400 | If you want my help, when you're ready, come and I'm there.
00:23:18.480 | And until you do, how do I get that passion out
00:23:22.120 | to help other people?
00:23:22.960 | I help other people that's not my family.
00:23:25.480 | And eventually, many of them have come along,
00:23:28.680 | but I can't beat myself up about it
00:23:31.400 | because they won't listen.
00:23:33.200 | I'm their sister.
00:23:34.040 | I'm the person that was the banker.
00:23:35.640 | I was the one who told on them when they was little
00:23:38.000 | 'cause I'm not gonna get a beating.
00:23:39.400 | You broke the plate.
00:23:41.240 | My grandmother would beat all of us
00:23:42.560 | if one of us broke the plate and went to hell.
00:23:44.240 | I tell, I'm a snitch, right?
00:23:46.200 | Don't break the law 'cause if they come to me,
00:23:48.200 | you know how they offer people the deal,
00:23:49.640 | I'm gonna take the deal.
00:23:50.880 | (audience laughing)
00:23:52.920 | So we help them when we can.
00:23:56.160 | And then when they're ready, when they fall,
00:23:58.920 | because that's when they really are gonna listen.
00:24:02.800 | You have to let people fall.
00:24:06.680 | And I'm gonna tell you, I don't know who's in this room,
00:24:09.920 | but you all have done a great job.
00:24:11.880 | But statistically, your adult children
00:24:16.000 | are not good money managers
00:24:18.000 | because you don't want them to suffer.
00:24:20.760 | You don't want them,
00:24:21.920 | you want them to have it better than you had.
00:24:24.120 | You say things like that.
00:24:25.560 | But because you struggle, because you were frugal,
00:24:29.760 | you are who you are.
00:24:31.720 | And so we have to not enable these adult kids.
00:24:35.560 | So I wait for them to fall
00:24:37.840 | because sometimes you're not gonna get up until you fall.
00:24:41.240 | And then they'll listen.
00:24:43.160 | And then to satisfy my need to help other people,
00:24:46.680 | I have a ministry.
00:24:47.680 | I go into prisons to help people
00:24:49.400 | who are about to be released handle their money.
00:24:52.080 | That's how I satisfy that part of my goal.
00:24:54.800 | And I hope eventually that family members will learn.
00:24:58.280 | And if they don't, I can't rescue them
00:25:01.720 | if they don't wanna be rescued.
00:25:03.960 | - So you mentioned the ministry, Michelle,
00:25:06.440 | and I really wanna talk about that.
00:25:09.160 | Can you talk about how you got involved
00:25:12.040 | in setting that up and also how it works?
00:25:16.680 | - Yeah, so the first lady at my church,
00:25:19.800 | we would have women's ministry meetings every month.
00:25:22.960 | And she wanted to have a five-minute financial minute.
00:25:25.960 | And that turned into 10 and 15 and 20.
00:25:28.520 | And she said, "Well, you need to just have a whole ministry."
00:25:31.240 | And so that's how it developed.
00:25:33.920 | And I wanted to create something that was lasting
00:25:38.080 | because when you have workshops
00:25:40.400 | and people get so excited, and then what happens?
00:25:44.280 | They don't act on the information.
00:25:46.280 | And so I wanted to create a program
00:25:49.040 | that we would build relationships.
00:25:50.920 | And I modeled it after Alcoholics Anonymous
00:25:54.280 | because they have sponsors,
00:25:56.080 | people who they can call when they're at their lowest.
00:25:59.400 | So we created a money program where there's money mentors.
00:26:03.520 | And so they help them budget.
00:26:05.360 | They actually even call people when they're in the store.
00:26:07.800 | Like someone's in the store, like Target,
00:26:09.720 | and they're like spending,
00:26:11.120 | and they will call their mentors like,
00:26:12.800 | "I don't know what to do."
00:26:13.760 | And we've actually had people talk,
00:26:15.480 | like, "Put the card away, go to your car."
00:26:18.520 | And it's a year-long program.
00:26:21.080 | We start in January, we go to December,
00:26:23.120 | we take August off for a vacation.
00:26:24.640 | And every month for two hours, sometimes three,
00:26:29.240 | 'cause I hang around afterwards,
00:26:31.120 | we have topics, get out of debt,
00:26:33.160 | how to save, better decision-making, investing.
00:26:36.480 | And they stick around.
00:26:38.320 | And now with the pandemic, we went virtual.
00:26:40.560 | Do you know, we have 200 people on average on Zoom
00:26:44.440 | for two hours listen to about money.
00:26:46.920 | Regular, not y'all brilliant people.
00:26:48.680 | I mean, just regular trifling people for two hours.
00:26:52.840 | And we build relationships over that year.
00:26:56.360 | So by halfway through, they trust us.
00:26:59.720 | We say, "Don't spend, don't give that to that kid."
00:27:02.800 | And they actually act on that.
00:27:04.720 | In this program, people's credit scores go up
00:27:07.280 | on average 50 to 100 points.
00:27:10.600 | During 2021, so on average, on a year,
00:27:13.880 | we have anywhere from 150 to 200 people.
00:27:16.160 | We have a really large church.
00:27:17.600 | And you don't have to be a member of our church, it's free.
00:27:21.040 | But during 2021, during the rough time on the pandemic,
00:27:25.080 | people in this group, this one small group,
00:27:27.840 | got rid of $1.2 million in debt.
00:27:34.600 | That's amazing.
00:27:36.080 | (audience applauding)
00:27:39.640 | And so as a part of that program,
00:27:42.360 | is the prison outreach part,
00:27:44.560 | where my husband and I go into state prisons in Maryland,
00:27:48.000 | men and women, and it's part of a re-entry program.
00:27:51.600 | So it's a five to six week program
00:27:53.760 | where we go inside the institution for two or three hours
00:27:56.840 | and teach workshop classes
00:27:58.520 | to people who are about to be released.
00:28:00.560 | And so that's, it's a comprehensive, you know,
00:28:03.800 | and the money mentors stick with the program.
00:28:06.680 | So we have, you know, several dozen people
00:28:10.000 | who we train to help talk to people.
00:28:12.280 | And they're not accountants,
00:28:13.240 | they're not showing them how to do Vanguard
00:28:15.200 | or anything like that.
00:28:16.040 | They're just like, "Where's your budget?
00:28:17.440 | "Where's your budget?
00:28:18.520 | "Why did you go shopping?
00:28:19.560 | "You don't need to buy nothing for Christmas.
00:28:21.040 | "That kid don't need no more shoes."
00:28:22.800 | That's all we do, to free up money
00:28:25.720 | so that they can save and invest for their future.
00:28:29.080 | - So I'd like to talk about
00:28:30.600 | what works in financial education.
00:28:33.120 | So it seems like you feel like
00:28:34.800 | that sponsorship kind of buddy thing really works.
00:28:38.080 | But I'm wondering if you can just talk about it
00:28:40.320 | in your experience,
00:28:41.680 | what sorts of teaching resonates and helps improve outcomes?
00:28:46.680 | - Ah, that's such a good question.
00:28:50.480 | You know, obviously I like to tell a lot of stories.
00:28:52.840 | I think the more personable you make it, the better.
00:28:56.560 | I love Pristina.
00:28:57.720 | I go to her all the time
00:29:00.080 | because of the way you talk to people.
00:29:03.320 | I think what we have to do is,
00:29:05.920 | it's not about dumbing down,
00:29:07.520 | but like this conference, I'm like so geeky
00:29:09.920 | and I'm laughing at the beta jokes
00:29:11.560 | and the alpha jokes and stuff.
00:29:12.760 | But regular people, we not regular, y'all.
00:29:15.760 | (audience laughing)
00:29:17.640 | They won't get that.
00:29:19.160 | And it's very off-putting to them
00:29:21.840 | because A, it makes them feel like they're dumb.
00:29:25.240 | And secondly, it goes so over their head
00:29:28.680 | that they're not hearing the basic message,
00:29:31.040 | which is all y'all need to do is put money
00:29:33.400 | in a low-cost index fund and just let it go.
00:29:37.400 | They don't hear that.
00:29:38.240 | They're so intimidated.
00:29:39.640 | And so I think it's very important
00:29:42.560 | that we meet them where they are
00:29:45.920 | to encourage them to do the things
00:29:48.040 | that they need to do to grow their money.
00:29:51.080 | And I wish there were so many more people here
00:29:54.320 | at this conference who would get
00:29:56.840 | that they can do this thing
00:30:00.680 | if they just be present.
00:30:03.000 | And we make sure that we're talking to them
00:30:05.640 | in a way that they understand.
00:30:07.840 | - I wanted to, I just have one more question
00:30:11.120 | and then I want to open it up to the audience.
00:30:12.760 | So if you have a question for Michelle, you can queue up.
00:30:15.040 | We'll be bringing the microphone down there.
00:30:17.240 | I wanted to ask you about the themes
00:30:21.280 | that you find yourself coming back to again
00:30:23.520 | and again in your work.
00:30:24.560 | I think Jason Zweig has said there are like,
00:30:26.800 | how many columns, Jason?
00:30:28.080 | Is he still here?
00:30:29.560 | (Jason mumbling)
00:30:31.680 | He feels six columns, six topics
00:30:36.000 | that he revisits with kind of a current events hook.
00:30:39.240 | When you reflect on your work,
00:30:41.800 | are there any key themes that you find yourself
00:30:44.640 | coming back to again and again in your articles?
00:30:47.960 | - Most definitely.
00:30:48.800 | And by the way, like, first of all, Jason is so cute.
00:30:51.240 | But.
00:30:52.080 | (audience laughing)
00:30:53.200 | He's just so cute.
00:30:54.240 | (Jason mumbling)
00:30:55.520 | - Okay.
00:30:56.360 | (laughing)
00:30:58.760 | And I just love his work.
00:31:00.160 | I'm such a big fan.
00:31:02.160 | So the key things, 'cause here's the thing.
00:31:04.800 | I love this conference and it's all about, you know,
00:31:06.680 | like, I don't do spreadsheets.
00:31:08.080 | I don't do any of that.
00:31:09.600 | But the thing that'll get some people to where you are
00:31:14.600 | is debt, number one.
00:31:17.080 | This is a country that loves debt.
00:31:19.400 | So I revisit debt, spending choices,
00:31:23.320 | better decision-making, love and money.
00:31:27.080 | I heard someone talk about having this panel
00:31:29.280 | about couples and money.
00:31:30.560 | A lot of reasons why people don't have the money to invest
00:31:33.120 | is that they're on different pages with their spouses.
00:31:36.640 | Because we tend to marry on money.
00:31:38.320 | Opposite, it's just how it works.
00:31:40.160 | I could not be married to another Michelle.
00:31:42.200 | So my husband is way different than me.
00:31:45.400 | Now, fortunately, we are on the same page money
00:31:47.440 | 'cause I very purposely wanted to marry a cheap man.
00:31:51.320 | (audience laughing)
00:31:53.680 | Which is very unusual.
00:31:55.760 | Even as a young child, I mean, a young adult dating,
00:31:59.200 | I knew the kind of man I wanted.
00:32:00.640 | Like, I didn't want somebody who had fancy cars.
00:32:03.920 | I could tell y'all a story like that.
00:32:05.440 | But anyway.
00:32:06.880 | So love and money, kids and money, and estate planning.
00:32:11.880 | Those are the topics I try to revisit.
00:32:14.920 | And I hate debt so bad.
00:32:18.000 | I mean, if debt was a person, I'd slap it.
00:32:21.640 | I just, I feel like this country
00:32:26.640 | could be in such a better place
00:32:28.880 | if we just had a healthy hatred for debt,
00:32:32.360 | even for our mortgage.
00:32:35.120 | Even for the things that we think are worth the debt.
00:32:38.280 | I'm not saying don't use it.
00:32:39.720 | Obviously, most of us cannot buy a house outright.
00:32:41.960 | But you ought to hate signing that thing so bad
00:32:44.560 | that you want to get out of it so bad.
00:32:46.920 | And when I write columns about pay your mortgage
00:32:49.040 | after we retire, the hate mail I get,
00:32:52.000 | mostly from financial planners.
00:32:53.840 | (audience laughing)
00:32:55.920 | It's crazy because I can't stand that mortgage.
00:33:00.400 | And if I don't have a mortgage in retirement
00:33:03.560 | and things happen like it is now,
00:33:05.960 | I can weather that storm a little bit better.
00:33:08.360 | If my kids can go, my youngest is a teacher.
00:33:12.080 | She can live on that teacher's salary a little bit better
00:33:15.600 | 'cause she don't have any student loan debt.
00:33:17.600 | And so savings, so important.
00:33:20.720 | And I'm gonna throw in income building,
00:33:24.040 | making sure you get enough knowledge
00:33:26.000 | and get in the right career
00:33:27.240 | so that you can have the right income.
00:33:28.540 | Although, I don't ever say everybody has to be in STEM
00:33:32.600 | or something like that because I believe
00:33:34.000 | we all have a gifting for where we ought to be.
00:33:37.200 | And I want to teach people how to live
00:33:39.720 | whatever they decide that that's where they want to do.
00:33:42.960 | My kid wants to be a teacher.
00:33:44.320 | I'm not gonna discourage her from doing that.
00:33:46.240 | I'm gonna teach her to be a really good money manager.
00:33:49.440 | And then estate planning.
00:33:50.520 | We had talked about this in the last panel.
00:33:52.680 | And someone said that it's so depressing
00:33:55.960 | because it's about death.
00:33:58.320 | That's not how I teach it.
00:34:00.200 | Estate planning is about life.
00:34:04.520 | It's not about death, it's about the living.
00:34:07.520 | What hot mess are you gonna leave
00:34:10.440 | if you don't do your estate planning, right?
00:34:14.940 | I mean, it's about the relationships.
00:34:17.960 | And then people do estate planning
00:34:19.580 | and they want to punish adult kids
00:34:21.280 | or people who weren't doing what they're supposed to do.
00:34:23.740 | But when you are gone and you leave something
00:34:26.520 | to one child and not the other,
00:34:29.120 | who are they gonna blame?
00:34:30.520 | You are dead.
00:34:31.920 | They're not gonna blame you.
00:34:34.120 | They're gonna somehow feel something about their sister.
00:34:36.880 | My husband and I update our wills every once in a while.
00:34:40.760 | We're in the process of doing that now.
00:34:42.280 | And we sat down with our oldest
00:34:43.600 | who's gonna be our personal representative in Maryland.
00:34:47.060 | And we were talking about everything.
00:34:48.180 | We got to the house.
00:34:49.440 | Now, we have a beautiful one acre property house
00:34:51.880 | and spent all these years trying to pay it off,
00:34:54.300 | love my house.
00:34:55.140 | And I wanna have a paid off house for somebody
00:34:59.260 | so they don't ever have a mortgage.
00:35:01.560 | And I don't care which kid get it,
00:35:03.400 | but somebody ought to have a paid off,
00:35:04.840 | keep that house, right?
00:35:06.580 | She looked at me, she said, "We selling the house."
00:35:08.860 | (audience laughing)
00:35:11.640 | "You can't sell my house."
00:35:14.440 | And I'm like feeling all, I'm crying.
00:35:16.440 | Like, "Why you don't like my house?"
00:35:18.400 | You know, black people don't have no property.
00:35:20.840 | I just, I went there, I went there, you know?
00:35:23.880 | And she looked at me like I was crazy.
00:35:26.200 | And my kids have great relationship with each other.
00:35:28.400 | She said, "Mom, if only one of us
00:35:31.320 | "was able to have the house,
00:35:33.020 | "that's gonna make the other two feel some kind of way.
00:35:36.680 | "Even if we aren't fighting,
00:35:38.460 | "you're gonna be really resentful.
00:35:40.140 | "And I don't think that's what you wanna leave."
00:35:43.140 | I was like, "Darn if that kid gonna sell my house."
00:35:46.800 | (audience laughing)
00:35:48.560 | But she was right.
00:35:50.360 | It's just a house.
00:35:52.520 | We have taught them to be property owners.
00:35:54.720 | So she said, "We can sell it, split it three ways.
00:35:57.040 | "And we've taught them to handle money well enough
00:35:59.120 | "that they could take those proceeds,
00:36:00.660 | "buy a house of their own,
00:36:02.140 | "almost, if not outright, close to it.
00:36:04.740 | "So they will be a mortgage-free loan
00:36:06.760 | "before my husband had been mortgage-free."
00:36:08.760 | And she's telling me all this, 27.
00:36:11.400 | And I'm a little proud and a little pissed off.
00:36:14.460 | (audience laughing)
00:36:17.260 | But she was absolutely right.
00:36:18.840 | Plan for the living.
00:36:20.800 | What kind of relationships?
00:36:21.880 | If you don't have a good relationship,
00:36:23.720 | you need to get some therapy.
00:36:25.480 | Some family therapy so that you all can come together.
00:36:28.360 | I had a, I was speaking to some seniors at my church
00:36:30.760 | and she was saying her son is her representative,
00:36:33.400 | but she don't like his wife.
00:36:34.480 | And his wife has a lot of influence over her husband.
00:36:36.520 | Of course she does, she sleeps with him.
00:36:38.760 | (audience laughing)
00:36:40.560 | So I said to her, I said,
00:36:41.800 | "You need to get in good graces with that wife
00:36:43.900 | "because let me tell you, it's not just about when you die.
00:36:46.040 | "If you can't take care of yourself
00:36:48.600 | "and he has to take care of yourself,
00:36:50.760 | "you're gonna want her to wanna take care of you.
00:36:54.520 | "So you better build a good relationship with that wife
00:36:57.420 | "so that he will take good care of you
00:36:59.260 | "and she will take good care of you."
00:37:01.640 | And she was like, I said, "Plan a lunch."
00:37:03.480 | She's like, "I'mma plan a lunch."
00:37:05.280 | (audience laughing)
00:37:09.040 | - Beautiful, thank you, Michelle.
00:37:10.680 | I am loving this.
00:37:11.780 | (audience applauding)
00:37:15.420 | We're gonna take some questions from the audience.
00:37:18.280 | I'll put the mic right here.
00:37:20.240 | - Thank you so much for being here.
00:37:26.620 | Welcome to the club.
00:37:27.680 | - Thank you.
00:37:29.180 | - I've been reading your column.
00:37:30.240 | I live in Washington, D.C.
00:37:31.400 | I've been reading your column
00:37:32.320 | since I got out of school in the mid '90s.
00:37:34.160 | I know who Big Mom is.
00:37:36.400 | And I'm grateful for you and for this whole community,
00:37:41.280 | neutral arbiters of exceptional information with no angle.
00:37:46.280 | And my question is, when you look around this room,
00:37:51.120 | there's not that many women
00:37:54.320 | and there's not that many people of color.
00:37:56.480 | And I wonder what do you think it's gonna take
00:37:59.240 | to bring more diversity into this group
00:38:03.200 | that's, as far as I could detect,
00:38:06.800 | not prejudiced, not mean, extremely generous with no angle.
00:38:11.800 | It's been beneficial to me as a military widow
00:38:17.720 | when I was seeking out a half dozen advisors,
00:38:22.000 | each of whom told me something wrong,
00:38:25.200 | illegal, incorrect for my situation.
00:38:28.400 | And this is where I got my information.
00:38:30.300 | And I wonder, how can we do that for a bigger population?
00:38:33.600 | - Yeah, that's such a great question.
00:38:35.120 | And I spend a great deal of my time
00:38:36.720 | trying to get minorities and women involved in this.
00:38:41.040 | I think just, we can have big things like this,
00:38:44.920 | but within your community, just identify populations
00:38:48.260 | that you can go and talk to, community colleges, colleges,
00:38:52.000 | and have just simple forums and meet them where they are.
00:38:55.600 | So you might start off how to pay off your student loan debt
00:38:57.760 | but then you throw in some investing stuff, right?
00:39:00.040 | You just have to go out there and be very intentional
00:39:03.840 | about trying to reach those groups.
00:39:05.360 | The program in my church, we've got young people,
00:39:08.400 | old people, white, black, so, and as you can see, I do,
00:39:13.280 | one year I was teaching off of the Matrix.
00:39:18.360 | And so we all had dressed up like the Matrix.
00:39:21.040 | I had leather pants on, I can't fit them now,
00:39:23.800 | but I had them on then.
00:39:25.600 | One year, the whole thing was the Black Panther.
00:39:29.160 | So we got all the outfits
00:39:30.840 | and we just do really entertaining, interesting things.
00:39:34.480 | We do kids and money sessions.
00:39:37.200 | And so that's, you just have to go in,
00:39:39.200 | find those pockets of communities, set up programs,
00:39:42.320 | but make it so that it's not a one-off thing.
00:39:46.200 | Is there a community college with young adults?
00:39:48.560 | Try to go there and see, maybe they've got a math class
00:39:51.880 | or algebra class or whatever,
00:39:54.160 | and just see if you can kind of incorporate
00:39:56.280 | some of this stuff within that system.
00:39:58.360 | And I think that's how you bring them in.
00:40:00.160 | But you're absolutely right, we have to get,
00:40:02.120 | and I think Vanguard could probably do a better job
00:40:04.720 | of reaching out.
00:40:05.560 | It's a great product just for those kinds of folks.
00:40:09.880 | And the entry point maybe needs to be
00:40:11.680 | a little bit better, right?
00:40:13.360 | In order to get the, you know,
00:40:14.840 | administrators, you gotta have some kind of money, right?
00:40:17.200 | Now, my daughter, she has an investment account with,
00:40:20.400 | she's got a retirement account
00:40:21.480 | and investment account with Vanguard.
00:40:24.080 | And it was a hard sell.
00:40:25.280 | Now, you see the house she grew up into.
00:40:27.040 | It was a hard sell for her.
00:40:28.680 | And she has three funds, 3,000 each,
00:40:31.280 | 'cause she had $25,000 saved up, y'all, 25!
00:40:36.200 | I did not know that!
00:40:37.440 | So she has an account.
00:40:40.800 | And unfortunately, we set her up
00:40:42.880 | just as the market started to go down.
00:40:45.080 | And so when we're in the kitchen preparing something,
00:40:47.720 | she comes in, 'cause all my kids live with us,
00:40:50.440 | that's another story, which is great, we love it.
00:40:52.680 | We love that they live with us.
00:40:53.520 | She comes in and she kind of looks at us
00:40:55.160 | and she just cast her eyes.
00:40:56.920 | And she's like, "You're making my money go down."
00:41:00.200 | But I said, we keep saying, "Be patient, be patient."
00:41:02.440 | So that's how you do it.
00:41:03.640 | You do it within your own life,
00:41:04.800 | you do it within your community,
00:41:06.080 | and you have to go to where they are.
00:41:08.440 | - Thank you so much for being here.
00:41:12.360 | You mentioned helping folks with causes,
00:41:15.720 | or a purpose you value, like buying a home.
00:41:18.720 | And you also mentioned the importance of spending choices.
00:41:21.680 | How do you navigate or offset
00:41:23.720 | the fungibility aspect of money?
00:41:26.240 | So someone brings to you something you value,
00:41:28.760 | like buying a house, but you're aware of spending choices
00:41:32.160 | in their life elsewhere that you may not approve of.
00:41:35.040 | So in one sense, arguably, you're possibly enabling
00:41:39.960 | something you don't support.
00:41:41.560 | - So when you, okay, wait, go back to the mic,
00:41:45.280 | 'cause I think I wanna make sure
00:41:46.360 | I answered your question right.
00:41:47.400 | So are you saying if someone comes to me
00:41:49.240 | and they wanna buy a house, but they're not a good spender,
00:41:52.080 | I mean, let's say, how do I,
00:41:54.320 | should I tell them to go ahead and get a house,
00:41:56.120 | or is that what you're asking me?
00:41:57.480 | - Let's say if they told you they wanna buy a crazy SUV,
00:42:02.320 | you might say, I don't support that,
00:42:03.840 | I'm not gonna lend you this money.
00:42:05.800 | But they're borrowing from you to buy the house,
00:42:09.120 | while with their own separate funds, buying a crazy SUV,
00:42:12.880 | or whatever other choice that you may not support.
00:42:15.960 | Because funds are fungible, one could argue
00:42:19.320 | they're using their own funds for the house,
00:42:21.640 | and using your money for the crazy SUV.
00:42:24.360 | - Okay, I see that.
00:42:26.040 | Well, yeah, that doesn't happen with us.
00:42:29.560 | So the times that we help people
00:42:34.240 | with like a down payment on a house,
00:42:36.360 | we have looked at their situation,
00:42:38.000 | and we see their spending pattern.
00:42:39.720 | So if you were buying that kind of car,
00:42:41.960 | we're not gonna give you the money.
00:42:43.520 | So we are very discerning on who we choose to help that way.
00:42:47.520 | So we do look at your life challenges,
00:42:49.560 | and we do say to people, no, you got this over here,
00:42:52.800 | you need to wait.
00:42:53.960 | So we are very discerning, and I'm very like,
00:42:58.960 | no, I'm not gonna give you that.
00:43:01.920 | You're spending it on this very expensive car.
00:43:04.040 | I have a 2006 Honda Odyssey, and duct tape is my friend.
00:43:08.000 | (audience laughing)
00:43:09.240 | So I'm not gonna lend you money for a down payment house
00:43:11.720 | if you got like a Lexus, that's just not gonna happen.
00:43:14.840 | So I'm looking at your life choices as well,
00:43:17.720 | before I give you some money.
00:43:19.760 | And my husband, me more than my husband,
00:43:23.000 | he's the good cop, I'm the bad cop.
00:43:25.040 | I'm like, that's a dumb decision.
00:43:27.400 | I'm very candid.
00:43:28.840 | And when people, for example, whenever a form,
00:43:31.120 | not this form, but they come up and say,
00:43:32.400 | you know, should I buy a house?
00:43:33.760 | And the first thing I ask them is, do you have debt?
00:43:35.600 | And if you have consultant loan debt,
00:43:37.040 | I said, absolutely not, absolutely not.
00:43:40.240 | You get rid of that debt first.
00:43:41.720 | And the whole audience, not you all,
00:43:43.200 | 'cause y'all are from, you know.
00:43:44.560 | They're like, oh, how could you have ownership?
00:43:46.840 | You have to buy a house.
00:43:47.760 | I said, you already got a house,
00:43:49.440 | especially if the debt is like three, you know,
00:43:52.200 | six figures student loan debt.
00:43:53.560 | Absolutely not.
00:43:54.520 | And, you know, one woman came up
00:43:56.840 | and she wanted to upgrade to one.
00:43:58.440 | She had a townhouse and an upgrade to another house.
00:44:00.680 | And between her and her husband,
00:44:01.520 | they had $200,000 in student loan debt.
00:44:03.280 | I said, are you insane?
00:44:04.920 | No, you're not gonna live in that house.
00:44:07.200 | Oh, the boys need more room.
00:44:08.800 | How much room do they need?
00:44:11.040 | Right, you know, there's not enough backyard space.
00:44:13.520 | Take them to the park.
00:44:14.880 | (audience laughing)
00:44:16.320 | So I'm very opinionated.
00:44:18.240 | And I think that a lot of people just need to hear that.
00:44:21.360 | I mean, in our space, sometimes we're a lot like it depends.
00:44:24.440 | I'm not a depend kind of woman.
00:44:26.360 | I'm like, don't do that, that's dumb.
00:44:29.160 | And I'll help you show you another way.
00:44:31.400 | So that's not a situation I find myself in.
00:44:34.560 | - Michelle, is there a curriculum
00:44:41.840 | or the teaching material that you're using
00:44:46.120 | that we could use to get this message out?
00:44:50.000 | - Wow, so we are working on that right now,
00:44:53.400 | as a matter of fact.
00:44:54.880 | It's been taking forever.
00:44:55.800 | My job has been all-consuming since the pandemic,
00:44:58.680 | but we are working on a curriculum
00:45:00.840 | that is both biblically-based and a secular version.
00:45:04.920 | And my book before this last one
00:45:08.000 | called "The 21-Day Financial Fast"
00:45:10.320 | is biblically-based about a fast, the Daniel fast,
00:45:14.400 | where you don't eat fruits and vegetables and no meat.
00:45:17.480 | And so this fast is that you don't spend on anything
00:45:22.360 | that's not a necessity, and you have to use cash.
00:45:25.880 | And so based on that book and my last book,
00:45:28.280 | we have created a curriculum.
00:45:29.920 | And it's a year-long curriculum.
00:45:31.400 | The prison curriculum is much shorter.
00:45:33.960 | So we are working on that.
00:45:35.120 | We hope to get it up by 2023,
00:45:37.560 | and it'll be accessible through our website.
00:45:39.760 | - Let me ask you a quick question, Michelle.
00:45:42.480 | I want to ask about your charitable giving,
00:45:44.520 | because that's something we've talked about,
00:45:47.080 | your approach to charitable giving.
00:45:48.600 | And I specifically like your thoughts
00:45:51.040 | on a really big-picture question
00:45:53.000 | is figuring out how much is enough
00:45:57.080 | for you and your family and your needs
00:46:00.160 | versus how much you want to direct to charity.
00:46:04.320 | You told me that giving and having a giving plan set out
00:46:10.040 | and having it be automatic makes you better
00:46:12.880 | about managing your household finances.
00:46:14.880 | So can you talk a little bit about that?
00:46:17.160 | - I would love to talk about that.
00:46:18.360 | So my husband and I are tithers,
00:46:20.200 | so we give 10% of our gross income,
00:46:24.360 | 'cause my pastor says,
00:46:26.320 | "Do you want a gross blessing or a net blessing?"
00:46:29.320 | (audience laughing)
00:46:32.440 | And we decided to make giving
00:46:36.280 | as important as paying our mortgage.
00:46:38.480 | So it's not last, it's first.
00:46:41.440 | And because we give 10%,
00:46:43.400 | we got to really manage that 90%.
00:46:46.360 | And boy, do we manage that 90%.
00:46:48.480 | Now, I come from a low-income background.
00:46:50.480 | My grandmother didn't do tithing.
00:46:52.240 | She couldn't afford it.
00:46:53.360 | But my husband and I decided that we have been so blessed.
00:46:57.480 | We both came from childhoods that didn't have a lot.
00:47:03.400 | His parents divorced and kind of left my husband
00:47:05.760 | on his own when he was like 14.
00:47:07.920 | Not on his own, but they kind of disengaged from his life.
00:47:11.360 | My father tried to kill us.
00:47:13.760 | My grandfather was an alcoholic.
00:47:15.360 | And here I am at the Washington Post
00:47:17.040 | and my husband's working in a great government job
00:47:19.840 | as a manager, and we make an income
00:47:22.360 | that we never, ever dreamed that we would have.
00:47:25.640 | And we thought, what are we gonna do with this?
00:47:28.080 | Buy more cars?
00:47:29.320 | Buy a bigger house?
00:47:30.760 | That can't be all.
00:47:33.040 | Give it to our kids.
00:47:34.520 | I want them to work for their own self.
00:47:36.560 | We're gonna leave stuff to my kids,
00:47:38.080 | but we don't wanna leave them so wealthy.
00:47:40.200 | I love when Warren Buffett says you wanna give them enough
00:47:42.640 | that they can do something,
00:47:43.520 | but not so much that they do nothing.
00:47:45.640 | And so we decided that a 10% plus another two
00:47:50.320 | to other charities that we believe in
00:47:52.240 | has to be a priority in our life.
00:47:54.600 | Give first, then you manage the rest of the 90%.
00:47:58.200 | And we belong to a church that has a Shabbat center
00:48:02.400 | where we give to the poor, we feed the hungry,
00:48:05.080 | so we make sure that our money is being used well.
00:48:08.640 | We have a jobs program, we have the prison ministry,
00:48:11.640 | I do the financial, we have 100 ministries,
00:48:13.760 | so we are well aware that our money is in good use.
00:48:17.200 | And so I think for all of us,
00:48:20.920 | we have to make giving a priority.
00:48:23.680 | And not, I mean, we get a great tax break,
00:48:25.640 | but not just for the tax break.
00:48:27.000 | And it's so interesting.
00:48:27.840 | Y'all talk about tax harvesting and all that kind of stuff.
00:48:30.040 | I don't wear none of that stuff.
00:48:31.360 | I just give.
00:48:32.600 | That's a huge tax break.
00:48:34.880 | And I don't have to worry about taxes.
00:48:36.880 | And I'm helping our community.
00:48:39.360 | And so I believe that who much is given, much is required.
00:48:43.960 | It ought to be a key part of your financial life.
00:48:48.360 | Who are you helping besides,
00:48:50.640 | not just yourself or your immediate family,
00:48:53.000 | but outside of that sphere?
00:48:55.640 | Who are you impacting?
00:48:56.960 | What kind of financial legacy
00:48:58.560 | are you leaving for other people?
00:49:00.520 | It's gotta be key.
00:49:01.560 | The government can't do it all.
00:49:03.240 | And we know they don't even wanna do it.
00:49:05.680 | So it's up to us to help and make sure that our money,
00:49:10.160 | the thing that you work so hard for,
00:49:11.960 | is helping people live a better life.
00:49:15.320 | And so that is key part of who we are.
00:49:18.600 | We give to our church.
00:49:19.760 | We give to, you know, public radio.
00:49:22.280 | (audience applauding)
00:49:25.440 | - Michelle, your giving is close to my heart.
00:49:32.160 | I really appreciate it.
00:49:33.080 | But before I get into a point I was gonna make,
00:49:35.840 | I have a 2003 Honda Odyssey.
00:49:38.360 | (audience laughing)
00:49:41.360 | You know, in terms of making a difference,
00:49:45.560 | the topic that you just teed up
00:49:46.960 | is exactly what I came up to talk about.
00:49:49.200 | I've been very blessed myself.
00:49:52.160 | Struggled through life.
00:49:53.120 | Had a very stressful career.
00:49:55.040 | Two-time cancer survivor.
00:49:57.240 | And I made it to retirement.
00:49:59.440 | And so I'm blessed as well.
00:50:02.120 | The thing that I decided to do when I retired
00:50:05.160 | was to set up a private foundation
00:50:07.440 | to help cancer patients and their families
00:50:10.280 | because when they're undergoing treatment,
00:50:12.200 | can't work, can't pay their rent,
00:50:14.960 | can't put food on the table,
00:50:16.240 | can't pay utilities, things like that.
00:50:18.800 | And so I found that very rewarding.
00:50:21.560 | And I'm not encouraging anybody here to do the same thing
00:50:24.800 | because there's a lot to that.
00:50:26.320 | But, you know, bless you for the work that you do.
00:50:29.000 | What I did wanna suggest to this group,
00:50:31.760 | because it's available through Vanguard,
00:50:34.040 | through Fidelity, through Charles Schwab,
00:50:36.760 | the donor-advised funds, the DAFs,
00:50:39.320 | these are things that if any of you are fortunate enough
00:50:42.160 | to be in the position where you do have money
00:50:44.680 | and you do have the willingness and the heart to give,
00:50:47.760 | by all means, you can do this, and it's quite efficient,
00:50:50.840 | and it cleans things up from a tax perspective, so.
00:50:53.520 | - That's great, I'm glad.
00:50:54.480 | And thank you for what you're doing for those families.
00:50:57.320 | (audience applauding)
00:50:59.480 | Michelle, I wanna thank you on behalf of Bogleheads
00:51:02.520 | for making the trip to speak with us.
00:51:04.160 | I have loved hearing from you.
00:51:05.560 | I think the audience has, too,
00:51:07.280 | based on the reaction that I've been hearing.
00:51:09.440 | Thanks a million for doing this.
00:51:11.440 | (audience applauding)
00:51:14.600 | (audience cheering)
00:51:17.600 | [BLANK_AUDIO]