How To Drive Pipeline And Sales Engagement With Demand Generation And Growth Marketing

00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)

00:00:02.580 | You're listening to Let's Talk Jobs,

00:00:08.740 | where we give you practical insights into jobs and careers.

00:00:12.340 | I'm Tim Chen, and today we're talking

00:00:14.520 | about demand generation.

00:00:16.760 | Now, early in my 20s, I had the opportunity

00:00:18.860 | to visit Kolkata, India for my cousin's wedding.

00:00:21.540 | Now, I'm a naturally curious person, and I love food.

00:00:26.220 | So I was just dying to try something

00:00:28.420 | that I've never had before.

00:00:30.500 | Now, everyone warned me, and rightfully so,

00:00:33.860 | that I should stay far, far away from street vendor food,

00:00:38.220 | because my stomach had not yet gotten used

00:00:40.020 | to my new environment.

00:00:41.640 | There was also this legitimate fear

00:00:43.620 | that I could get sick due to lack of sanitation.

00:00:46.700 | But I didn't care.

00:00:48.180 | I didn't listen.

00:00:49.340 | I was so fascinated by the culture, the people,

00:00:51.820 | and the entrepreneurial hustle around me,

00:00:54.060 | I had to try something.

00:00:56.020 | So I remember going down a street,

00:00:58.300 | and a man and his daughter offered me some jalebi

00:01:00.740 | from the roadside cart.

00:01:02.340 | Now, if you're not familiar with jalebi,

00:01:04.740 | think of an American funnel cake

00:01:07.620 | that you would find at a county fair.

00:01:09.000 | But instead of it being this large, twisted donut thing,

00:01:12.560 | they're much smaller, and they're thinner,

00:01:14.860 | and they're crunchy, orange in color,

00:01:16.960 | and they're soaked in rose syrup.

00:01:19.380 | Now, I could tell that a man knew I was a foreigner,

00:01:21.740 | and that I had no idea what I was looking at.

00:01:23.900 | So between broken English, and sign language,

00:01:27.620 | which is mostly him pointing at stuff,

00:01:29.880 | and letting me smell the fragrance of the ingredients,

00:01:33.380 | he started to educate me.

00:01:35.500 | And only after I showed a little interest

00:01:37.980 | did he offer me the tiniest sample with dipping sauce.

00:01:41.420 | But I wasn't ready for it,

00:01:44.260 | because I was craving something savory.

00:01:46.300 | So I thanked him, I thanked his daughter, and I left.

00:01:49.980 | But you know what?

00:01:51.740 | I could not get the jalebi out of my mind.

00:01:54.620 | He had created a demand for it

00:01:56.780 | that I didn't even realize existed.

00:01:58.900 | And I could feel their eyes follow me

00:02:00.700 | as I continued walking down the street.

00:02:03.400 | Now, after buying and eating some goat curry and naan,

00:02:06.820 | who did I find standing next to me?

00:02:09.540 | It was a jalebi vendor's daughter.

00:02:11.940 | And she knew that I was ready for some dessert.

00:02:15.500 | Her English was far better than her father's,

00:02:17.980 | and within two minutes, she sold me three servings

00:02:22.540 | that I gladly shared with some of the kids who were nearby.

00:02:25.540 | Now, this to me is a perfect example

00:02:29.600 | of how demand generation and sales work together.

00:02:33.180 | The purpose of demand generation

00:02:35.060 | is to generate and create interest

00:02:36.820 | in a product or service that you have to offer.

00:02:40.140 | The more targeted and relevant

00:02:41.780 | your message is to your audience,

00:02:43.740 | the more they will likely take action

00:02:45.920 | to exchange their information for valuable content

00:02:48.900 | that you have to offer.

00:02:50.380 | So the million dollar question is,

00:02:53.980 | how does a marketer determine what content is targeted

00:02:56.820 | and valuable to their audience?

00:02:58.500 | Now, there are ways to conduct research

00:03:01.260 | and look into the data,

00:03:03.020 | but your ace in the hole, your wild card,

00:03:06.260 | is your sales team.

00:03:08.220 | Why?

00:03:09.300 | Because they have their ears to the ground

00:03:11.500 | and they hear firsthand what a prospect is looking for.

00:03:16.020 | They know what features or solutions are important.

00:03:19.380 | They usually have this dialed down

00:03:20.980 | by persona, job title, and industry.

00:03:25.020 | They also know why a prospect would choose

00:03:27.820 | to take their business elsewhere.

00:03:30.200 | So having that information is highly valuable

00:03:33.080 | in refining your message to the right segment.

00:03:36.180 | But remember, this is a two-way street.

00:03:39.100 | As a marketer, by regularly providing sales

00:03:43.220 | with insights about industry trends

00:03:44.960 | and what people are engaging with,

00:03:46.760 | the sales team can refine their approach

00:03:49.420 | to be more effective in qualifying a prospect,

00:03:52.260 | leveraging the insights that you provided to them.

00:03:54.900 | So today, we will be joined by Hector Preciado.

00:03:59.260 | He's the director of demand generation at LawClerk.

00:04:02.620 | He brings a very unique perspective

00:04:04.420 | because he was a highly successful sales executive

00:04:07.980 | and he made that transition from biz dev

00:04:10.620 | to growth marketing and demand generation.

00:04:13.880 | In this video, he will cover topics such as

00:04:16.940 | how to optimize that intersection

00:04:19.620 | between marketing and sales,

00:04:21.660 | how to leverage insight from sales

00:04:23.340 | to drive marketing success,

00:04:25.340 | and the importance of personas

00:04:27.220 | and how to validate their key pain points.

00:04:30.660 | All right, let's get started.

00:04:32.380 | Hey, guys.

00:04:33.220 | Today, we're talking about growth marketing

00:04:35.180 | and demand generation.

00:04:36.480 | With us, Hector Preciado.

00:04:37.980 | Hector, how are you doing?

00:04:39.100 | - Hey, I'm doing well, Tim.

00:04:39.940 | Thanks for having me.

00:04:40.760 | Appreciate it.

00:04:41.600 | - Hector, I am excited about this call

00:04:43.440 | because I fundamentally believe

00:04:45.860 | sales and marketing go hand in hand.

00:04:48.600 | The individual who's experienced both

00:04:51.700 | is, I think, is the most unique and valuable person

00:04:55.020 | in a marketing organization, I believe.

00:04:56.700 | That's my opinion.

00:04:57.580 | And so that's something you find yourself

00:04:59.700 | doing today as well, right?

00:05:00.700 | So can you tell us a little bit about

00:05:02.540 | what you're doing right now

00:05:03.440 | and kind of how you see the intersections meet?

00:05:06.020 | - Sure, yeah.

00:05:06.840 | No, I couldn't agree with you more, Tim, actually.

00:05:08.620 | And in many ways, once I kind of figured out

00:05:11.580 | what I wanted to do in the product sector

00:05:13.160 | and tech specifically, it's kind of by design, actually.

00:05:16.800 | And so right now, I am the Director of Demand Generation

00:05:21.800 | for a small startup in the legal tech space called LockClerk.

00:05:25.760 | My role is, as the name suggests,

00:05:29.000 | demand generation is to generate demand for our solutions.

00:05:33.680 | And so I work in tandem with our sales leaders

00:05:38.280 | so that we can figure out how to bring more leads

00:05:41.860 | to the sales team.

00:05:43.460 | And I do that through a multi-channel approach.

00:05:47.180 | So as a marketer, multi-channel, all these buzzwords, right?

00:05:49.960 | We all know what it means.

00:05:50.800 | But essentially, I manage a team of marketers

00:05:55.160 | who manage different channels.

00:05:57.500 | So I have an email marketer.

00:05:59.940 | I have an SEO manager that handles all of our organic work.

00:06:04.820 | I have a growth marketing manager

00:06:06.300 | who's focusing on our paid campaigns,

00:06:08.780 | online advertisements, things like that.

00:06:11.580 | I work in tandem with our co-founders to generate content

00:06:15.320 | that kind of helps fuel and drive our campaigns.

00:06:18.820 | I manage partnerships, strategic partnerships,

00:06:22.300 | whether it be to generate leads externally

00:06:24.620 | or to figure out how to monetize some of those partnerships.

00:06:28.580 | So working at a startup, as you know,

00:06:31.060 | you kind of wear a lot of hats.

00:06:33.140 | And my current role is no exception.

00:06:36.260 | So can you tell us a little bit

00:06:38.100 | about the intersection point between sales and marketing?

00:06:41.700 | You know, I'll give the listeners an example.

00:06:44.380 | So Hector and I used to work together, right?

00:06:45.980 | At that time, you're like one of the superb,

00:06:48.060 | like a rockstar sales leaders.

00:06:50.040 | And I was in like web and demand gen.

00:06:53.120 | And every week, I would sit down

00:06:55.420 | and look at all the leads that came in.

00:06:57.700 | And we would look at every single stage

00:06:59.500 | of the buyer's journey in terms of the lead stage, right?

00:07:02.460 | So from MQLs all the way down to SQL conversion rates

00:07:05.740 | to bookings in one, and the whole purpose of that

00:07:08.300 | was to align on quality of leads collected

00:07:11.060 | or understand fluctuations of leads, right?

00:07:13.300 | And as an example for those out there,

00:07:15.440 | like sales qualified, like the last stage,

00:07:18.180 | that's very much not marketing influence,

00:07:20.780 | it's totally sales influenced.

00:07:21.940 | And if part of the sales team is on vacation,

00:07:24.360 | that number could go down.

00:07:25.940 | Or if we give you bad quality leads,

00:07:28.560 | that number would also go down as well.

00:07:30.060 | And so we're trying to figure out the math

00:07:31.960 | and conversion rates between all those.

00:07:33.460 | And I think that led to a very harmonious relationship.

00:07:36.540 | So in your role, you mentioned talking,

00:07:38.340 | working closely with your sales leaders.

00:07:40.580 | What does that look like to you?

00:07:41.840 | And given your background in sales,

00:07:44.940 | is that conversation different from your point of view

00:07:47.060 | than maybe someone who doesn't have a sales background?

00:07:49.840 | - Yeah, no, I think so.

00:07:51.180 | To start with the first question around like,

00:07:54.100 | how's the intersection of sales and marketing?

00:07:57.180 | When you look at it from a revenue standpoint,

00:08:00.140 | like how does a company develop revenue, right?

00:08:02.220 | And if you have functions,

00:08:03.420 | if you have marketing teams and sales teams,

00:08:05.940 | what you're talking about is two different funnels, right?

00:08:09.180 | You're talking about, from a marketing standpoint,

00:08:11.220 | it's kind of where it all begins,

00:08:12.700 | is how do you begin to raise your brand recognition

00:08:17.700 | so that people can start having an interest

00:08:20.540 | in learning more about you, right?

00:08:22.140 | And then once you kind of pick them, as you know,

00:08:24.740 | better than I do, right?

00:08:26.260 | That's where kind of like the journey in marketing starts,

00:08:28.280 | right?

00:08:29.120 | Like the education standpoint,

00:08:30.260 | I wanna start doing some research,

00:08:31.800 | I wanna learn more,

00:08:32.740 | I'm gonna watch some videos,

00:08:33.900 | maybe read some product reviews,

00:08:35.380 | so on and so forth.

00:08:36.860 | All of those types of activities

00:08:37.980 | eventually kind of bring you down the marketing funnel,

00:08:40.560 | where you're just like, okay,

00:08:41.700 | I wanna talk to somebody, right?

00:08:43.980 | And once you're open to talking to somebody,

00:08:46.340 | that's essentially where like the sales journey begins,

00:08:48.980 | right?

00:08:49.820 | That's what, you know, sales representatives,

00:08:52.820 | that's what they, that's their job.

00:08:54.400 | Their job is to engage with prospects

00:08:56.740 | and then try to convert them, right?

00:08:58.580 | And so, and that point is where

00:09:02.080 | you have your inflection point, right?

00:09:03.480 | And that's where the handoff happens

00:09:05.520 | and that's where you start to see the relationship

00:09:09.000 | between marketers or the marketing team and the sales team.

00:09:12.140 | Down the funnel, you start getting that more signal.

00:09:15.680 | So, say a sales rep starts talking to somebody,

00:09:19.520 | it was a great conversation,

00:09:20.840 | but they weren't ready to buy it, right?

00:09:23.820 | That feedback, right?

00:09:25.440 | That they could, it would be important to share

00:09:27.960 | with the marketing team so that we can ask the question,

00:09:31.200 | well, why do you think they weren't ready to buy it?

00:09:33.800 | Right?

00:09:34.640 | They want more information.

00:09:35.840 | Was it not the right kind of fit?

00:09:37.720 | They thought they were getting X when we were selling Y.

00:09:41.220 | Are we delivering that X message

00:09:43.260 | and they're expecting Y, right?

00:09:44.840 | And by we, I mean the marketing team, right?

00:09:46.920 | So, all those types of questions and those conversations

00:09:50.160 | and you and I used to, once a week, right?

00:09:52.320 | We had those conversations and I love those conversations.

00:09:55.040 | Those are some of my most fond memories

00:09:57.200 | when you and I used to work together, right?

00:09:59.840 | That kind of feedback, that loop, number one, has to exist.

00:10:03.240 | And then the quality of that feedback

00:10:05.080 | and the information that you get to go back

00:10:07.140 | so you can make some changes to your marketing strategy,

00:10:10.280 | your marketing channels.

00:10:12.120 | 'Cause it could also mean,

00:10:13.360 | hey, most of the people that I'm talking to

00:10:16.040 | are coming through emails, right?

00:10:18.000 | Like, okay, great.

00:10:19.960 | Well, you know that your email channel is doing well.

00:10:22.720 | Maybe you want to think about it, throwing more money

00:10:24.640 | through your email channels.

00:10:25.820 | And then you say, oh, look at these campaigns

00:10:28.300 | that were running on paid advertisement,

00:10:30.160 | let's say on Google AdWords, for example,

00:10:33.120 | are not really generating any leads for us

00:10:36.000 | or any good leads.

00:10:36.840 | So then maybe we want to think about

00:10:38.520 | shifting some of the budget

00:10:39.560 | for some of the campaigns that are working, right?

00:10:41.480 | And so, as you know, it is a constant,

00:10:43.800 | like, let me listen to what's happening.

00:10:45.640 | What are the ears to the ground?

00:10:46.840 | What kind of feedback are we getting from the sales team

00:10:48.780 | about the quality of the leads or the lack thereof?

00:10:52.120 | What messaging is working?

00:10:54.240 | What pieces of content are working?

00:10:56.780 | Is it blogs?

00:10:57.700 | Is it videos?

00:10:58.660 | Is it white papers?

00:11:00.340 | So all of that needs to come back to the marketing team,

00:11:04.320 | right, so that we can begin to optimize

00:11:07.460 | to see what's happening, right?

00:11:08.740 | And because oftentimes what I've experienced

00:11:12.720 | in different places is sometimes, you know,

00:11:15.140 | the sales team and the marketing team

00:11:16.660 | seems to be at odds, right?

00:11:18.900 | It's competing, right?

00:11:20.580 | Or there's like this finger-pointing blame game

00:11:24.900 | that happens where it's like,

00:11:26.120 | well, it's not our fault, the leads aren't good.

00:11:27.520 | Or like, well, you know, we got good leads,

00:11:29.080 | we got a high volume,

00:11:30.040 | they're just not closing deals, right?

00:11:31.800 | And so sometimes you see like an antagonistic relationships

00:11:35.640 | amongst marketing and sales,

00:11:37.720 | where I prefer to look at it from like,

00:11:39.760 | no, we're strategic partners.

00:11:40.960 | Actually, we're kind of like cousins.

00:11:42.560 | We're first cousins, right?

00:11:44.760 | At the end of the day, we want the same thing, right?

00:11:47.800 | We want to succeed and success at the end.

00:11:50.400 | And at the end of the day,

00:11:51.240 | it comes in the form of revenue, right?

00:11:52.760 | We're talking about the next generation.

00:11:54.280 | So long as we're closing deals and we're making money,

00:11:56.900 | everybody's happy, right?

00:11:58.480 | And it doesn't have to be a contentious relationship

00:12:00.400 | to get there.

00:12:01.540 | Actually, when you're actually working lockstep

00:12:03.760 | with one another is when the magic really happens.

00:12:07.000 | - I totally agree.

00:12:07.840 | You know, it reminds me of one test I ran

00:12:10.240 | once on LinkedIn with your input.

00:12:12.520 | We were looking at optimizing a contact sales form.

00:12:16.120 | And that point, like again,

00:12:18.840 | LinkedIn learning at that point was a startup.

00:12:20.360 | So we're trying to throw everything at the wall,

00:12:21.800 | see what sticks, right?

00:12:23.280 | And the typical template looked like a form on the left

00:12:27.600 | and the right was some kind of value-based proposition

00:12:30.400 | about like why working with LinkedIn

00:12:31.960 | learning is better, whatever.

00:12:33.780 | And that, you know, being LinkedIn,

00:12:35.520 | the brand carried, so it performed well.

00:12:37.640 | I remember I had one conversation with you, Hector,

00:12:39.280 | where I said, hey,

00:12:40.600 | when you're actually on that sales call with the customer,

00:12:43.720 | what are the top three things that actually come up?

00:12:46.960 | Whether it's the FAQ or whatever it is.

00:12:49.460 | And you kind of helped me understand,

00:12:50.500 | hey, like these are the top five commonly asked questions

00:12:54.200 | or discussed topics.

00:12:55.880 | So I said, okay, let me run with that.

00:12:58.000 | I did a test where I took and exposed those

00:13:00.720 | on the landing page.

00:13:01.540 | I said, hey, look, on this call with sales,

00:13:04.040 | you will most likely talk about this.

00:13:06.920 | And conversions went up, right?

00:13:08.480 | And I think that's an example where sales and marketing,

00:13:10.800 | the feedback bi-directional is really helpful.

00:13:13.940 | Do you mind giving us maybe some examples

00:13:16.080 | specifically of maybe like whether marketing had an insight,

00:13:19.520 | maybe you guys noticed something from a trends point of view

00:13:22.720 | where the insight fed into sales

00:13:24.840 | and maybe helped increase deal closings

00:13:27.520 | or the other direction?

00:13:29.000 | - Yeah, no.

00:13:29.820 | So, I mean, that was a great example that you shared

00:13:31.520 | when we worked at LinkedIn.

00:13:32.360 | And I specifically remember that

00:13:33.980 | 'cause one of the biggest pain points was

00:13:35.760 | how do I get more time, right?

00:13:38.240 | And I remember sharing that feedback

00:13:40.000 | and I remember you implementing that

00:13:41.560 | in part of the messaging proactively, right?

00:13:43.800 | So what you want to do in that case

00:13:45.800 | is you wanna get in front of the pain points

00:13:49.220 | or some of the questions that are gonna come up, right?

00:13:51.480 | And that's one approach.

00:13:54.040 | But let me share a different approach

00:13:56.040 | but the same concept, right?

00:13:57.120 | - Yeah.

00:13:58.600 | - For us, we're in the legal tech space

00:14:00.880 | and so our core customers are attorneys, right?

00:14:03.800 | Attorneys are among some of the most discerning customers

00:14:08.960 | that I have ever experienced, right?

00:14:10.880 | And working at LinkedIn, we work with marketers,

00:14:13.480 | with talent recruiters, with salespeople.

00:14:16.320 | - Yeah.

00:14:17.160 | - And advertisers, right?

00:14:17.980 | I mean, we work with four different lines of business, right?

00:14:20.440 | And the first time I actually worked with attorneys

00:14:24.720 | and they're very discerning, right?

00:14:26.400 | For a lot of different reasons,

00:14:27.620 | including that that is their job, right?

00:14:30.120 | Their job is for them to like poke holes in arguments

00:14:32.840 | and like, you know, find the loopholes, right?

00:14:35.520 | - Yeah.

00:14:36.360 | - And speak contrarians, right?

00:14:37.480 | Like that's essentially what lawyers do.

00:14:39.160 | And so when we're trying to engage them,

00:14:43.360 | it was a bit of a challenge.

00:14:44.360 | So, you know, we started running some tests

00:14:46.560 | on some calls to action or CTAs as it's often called

00:14:49.560 | in some of our webpages specifically when for us,

00:14:53.160 | the highest converting type of lead is book a demo.

00:14:55.720 | Surprise, surprise, right?

00:14:56.760 | Like that's for everybody, right?

00:14:58.560 | And so, but we were trying to see

00:15:01.880 | what kind of messaging around the call to action

00:15:04.400 | would resonate the best with attorneys, right?

00:15:07.000 | And so, you know, we had like, oh, book a demo,

00:15:09.560 | book a demo, book a demo.

00:15:10.640 | And we were doing it for a long time

00:15:11.720 | and we're getting some leads and whatnot, right?

00:15:14.200 | But we were having conversations internally

00:15:17.720 | that was suggesting that, you know, these guys,

00:15:21.320 | people don't convert until they talk to somebody,

00:15:23.000 | until they talk to one of our experts.

00:15:24.920 | - Right.

00:15:25.760 | - Once they talk to one of our experts,

00:15:26.880 | then that's when the conversations really get substantive.

00:15:29.160 | And then that's when we're able to move people down a funnel

00:15:30.880 | and then convert them into customers.

00:15:32.840 | And so for the longest time we kept having the conversation

00:15:35.120 | and then we finally realized,

00:15:37.160 | well, why don't we use talk to an expert as our CTA

00:15:40.640 | as opposed to just like book a demo, right?

00:15:43.440 | I'm like, okay, great.

00:15:44.360 | So some time ago, actually,

00:15:45.920 | I had a conversation with you when I was picking your brain

00:15:47.720 | about tools to use and whatnot.

00:15:49.080 | And on an A/B testing solution

00:15:53.400 | that we are currently using now that, well, we did that.

00:15:57.160 | Yeah, great.

00:15:58.000 | Let's change the CTA button on,

00:16:01.600 | and let's run the test where the control is book a demo

00:16:03.840 | and the variable is talk to an expert.

00:16:08.040 | And guess what?

00:16:09.120 | Talk to an expert converted at a much higher rate

00:16:11.840 | than just simply book a demo.

00:16:13.120 | And we actually got a higher volume of book a demo requests

00:16:16.680 | because the concept for an attorney

00:16:20.880 | that the person that I'm talking to is not a sales person,

00:16:24.960 | person is an expert, right?

00:16:27.080 | And so we tested another variable,

00:16:30.280 | like talk to an advisor was actually another one.

00:16:32.640 | So we did multiple A/B testing rounds

00:16:35.200 | and talk to an expert was one

00:16:37.120 | that actually resonate the best

00:16:38.960 | and increase the volume and the conversion rate for demos.

00:16:42.720 | And so, we wouldn't have landed on that

00:16:46.840 | had we not had the internal conversations

00:16:49.320 | with our sales leaders, right?

00:16:51.440 | And had these conversations.

00:16:52.680 | 'Cause if not, then us as marketers,

00:16:55.480 | we're just kind of out on an island

00:16:56.720 | trying to figure out like, we think this is the way to go.

00:16:58.920 | I don't know, let's test it, right?

00:17:00.840 | - Yeah, that's a wonderful example.

00:17:02.840 | It actually reminds me.

00:17:03.920 | So like the, because I've been mostly

00:17:05.920 | in a B2B high-tech space.

00:17:07.200 | So specifically around like hardware storage or security.

00:17:10.760 | And so my target customer is like a hardware

00:17:14.800 | or backend architect, let's say, right?

00:17:16.920 | So you have like your engineers,

00:17:18.680 | but architects is one who look at all those solutions.

00:17:21.920 | They've got a lot of pride in their work,

00:17:23.480 | which is important for the persona.

00:17:25.120 | And then they want to figure something out.

00:17:28.080 | And it's interesting, if you go back to the topic

00:17:32.160 | of who our personas are, to even figure that out,

00:17:36.320 | you need to look at the various stages

00:17:37.880 | of the buyer's journey, right?

00:17:38.800 | 'Cause you make a lot of assumptions

00:17:39.760 | that not everyone is the same.

00:17:41.880 | And once you start kind of delineating

00:17:43.600 | the different persona types against every stage

00:17:45.440 | of the buyer's journey, the exercise forces you to think,

00:17:48.320 | okay, well, at each stage,

00:17:49.840 | what question are they looking to answer?

00:17:51.560 | 'Cause remember, they're trying to get a job done

00:17:52.920 | at the end of the day, right?

00:17:53.760 | So what are they trying to get answered?

00:17:55.320 | And then what are the top tasks they're trying to do

00:17:57.680 | to get that, to answer that question?

00:17:59.840 | You can use that as a formula to audit

00:18:02.200 | any website efficacy.

00:18:04.040 | The reason why it's important is because

00:18:06.480 | for the architect, we discovered through conversations

00:18:10.040 | with sales, technical sales, technical engineers,

00:18:13.480 | and the product team, we discovered that that persona

00:18:16.800 | in particular was very, very prideful,

00:18:18.640 | meaning they did not want to be handheld through something

00:18:22.720 | 'cause they're actually surrendering

00:18:24.160 | or admitting that they don't know.

00:18:25.880 | And so the test we ran was like,

00:18:28.160 | so do they want a trial then?

00:18:29.960 | Do they want an on-demand demo?

00:18:31.680 | Do they want a live demo?

00:18:32.800 | Or do they want to talk to sales?

00:18:34.600 | And we found out that each of those hit them

00:18:36.880 | at a different stage of the buyer's journey.

00:18:38.480 | Trial was a lot further along.

00:18:40.360 | Demo, I'm just learning.

00:18:42.560 | But getting a live demo was the last one

00:18:45.600 | 'cause that particular persona didn't want it, right?

00:18:48.400 | So I think what you're saying is like,

00:18:49.720 | you gotta do a lot of testing for which of your customers

00:18:52.440 | are actually on your site.

00:18:53.560 | In some cases, a demo and sales form can be one and the same.

00:18:56.760 | Sometimes you might want to split it up

00:18:58.240 | 'cause your intent is completely different, right?

00:19:00.680 | So I love that example you shared, man.

00:19:02.880 | - Yeah, no, and you're absolutely right.

00:19:03.720 | And for us, you're talking about the buyer's journey,

00:19:06.400 | the persona, like we have a few different personas.

00:19:09.480 | Like we work primarily right now with solo practitioners

00:19:13.400 | and small firms, right?

00:19:15.120 | And there is a difference between a solo practitioner,

00:19:18.040 | like a singular attorney who's doing it all themselves,

00:19:21.720 | or like a small firm in which

00:19:23.640 | they do have additional support, right?

00:19:25.920 | But they lack, you know, they both like time

00:19:30.440 | and they both want to get to the same point

00:19:32.920 | where it's like, they want to do more work, right?

00:19:35.760 | But how they get there is a little different, right?

00:19:39.240 | And you're totally right.

00:19:40.080 | Like understanding the buyer persona

00:19:41.800 | and the journey that they're in

00:19:44.560 | and where they are in the journey

00:19:45.640 | is key to the types of campaigns

00:19:47.360 | that you should be running, so.

00:19:49.280 | - And so I'm kind of curious,

00:19:50.960 | kind of going back to your personal journey,

00:19:52.840 | 'cause again, I'm just so fascinated

00:19:56.000 | by your actually re-imagining of your career,

00:19:58.680 | going from sales to marketing.

00:20:01.360 | Can you help me understand even in the beginning,

00:20:03.720 | like what led you even into sales?

00:20:06.560 | 'Cause I don't have like,

00:20:08.320 | when I think of a salesperson or engineer,

00:20:10.280 | those are the two roles that I believe

00:20:12.440 | I don't have the skill sets or personalities for.

00:20:15.480 | And that's an uneducated statement,

00:20:17.760 | which is why I want to get the crux of this, right?

00:20:19.200 | So like, 'cause I make assumptions around like,

00:20:21.520 | I need to know this, or I need to be able to do that.

00:20:23.440 | I need to be totally comfortable with X, Y, and Z.

00:20:24.920 | And then I kind of self-select out of career opportunities.

00:20:28.040 | So can you help me understand like,

00:20:29.400 | was your path to sales a direct one,

00:20:32.120 | or was it kind of like a hodgepodge of experiences?

00:20:34.800 | - No, you know what?

00:20:35.640 | It was an indirect, actually.

00:20:36.960 | And it was kind of, in some ways,

00:20:38.200 | it was kind of like,

00:20:39.040 | as I'm walking down my career journey,

00:20:41.960 | kind of paying attention to what is available

00:20:44.280 | and what I needed,

00:20:45.120 | and then like optimizing all along the way, right?

00:20:47.680 | And so, I mean, not that that's the best route for anybody,

00:20:52.680 | but it has proven to be a good one for me.

00:20:55.200 | - What does that mean to you?

00:20:56.440 | Like optimizing along the way?

00:20:57.760 | - Yeah, so one of the things to understand about my career,

00:21:02.200 | and I'm not going to go into a lot of detail about this part,

00:21:04.000 | but actually I started my career

00:21:05.280 | working in nonprofit public policy work, right?

00:21:08.720 | I did a lot of communications work.

00:21:10.080 | I was director of communications for a nonprofit,

00:21:12.960 | as well as the director of development,

00:21:14.840 | which means I'm raising money.

00:21:16.280 | Which means I was basically the salesperson

00:21:18.400 | for the organization.

00:21:19.440 | And what I was selling, I was selling a vision, right?

00:21:22.040 | I was selling a mission and vision of the organization

00:21:24.600 | to potential clients and customers

00:21:26.640 | who give us money to do that,

00:21:28.040 | which, from a nonprofit standpoint,

00:21:29.840 | is the philanthropic community,

00:21:31.440 | which means like foundations that have a lot of money, right?

00:21:34.040 | Or like wealthy donors, right, who wants to give.

00:21:36.960 | So like my sales journey kind of started

00:21:39.000 | in the nonprofit sector,

00:21:41.160 | which I won't go into too much detail,

00:21:43.200 | but just kind of to give you a sense

00:21:44.200 | of how I kind of got started.

00:21:45.800 | - Yeah.

00:21:46.800 | - I knew at some point early in my career

00:21:48.800 | that I wanted to go to the private sector,

00:21:50.360 | but I didn't know what that meant and where and how, right?

00:21:55.360 | And so when most of my colleagues

00:21:58.520 | were applying to public policy schools,

00:22:01.360 | I decided I want to go to business school, right?

00:22:03.800 | And that was part of what actually kind of helped me

00:22:06.560 | optimize, right, how I want to get to the next phase.

00:22:10.240 | And actually, when I joined LinkedIn,

00:22:13.360 | at the time, they were giving you the book,

00:22:15.440 | "The Startup of You" by Reid Hoffman.

00:22:17.240 | And it's one of the books that I go to periodically

00:22:19.920 | and I recommend all the time because, you know,

00:22:22.120 | in it, Reid Hoffman talks about

00:22:23.760 | how do you make a career pivot,

00:22:25.000 | which is exactly what I was doing, right?

00:22:27.080 | I was trying to go from my nonprofit public policy,

00:22:29.280 | very specialized, to like go to the private sector, right?

00:22:32.680 | And so a couple of the things is you,

00:22:34.640 | one, you pick up a new skill set

00:22:37.000 | or an educational certification.

00:22:38.840 | For me, it was getting an MBA.

00:22:42.240 | And two, you pick up a new network.

00:22:44.240 | Well, I picked up that network

00:22:45.720 | by way of like my MBA experience and my classmates, right?

00:22:48.360 | And so that's kind of how I began to like optimize

00:22:51.480 | for the next step of my career.

00:22:53.000 | And actually, when I started working in tech,

00:22:57.360 | I started working in marketing.

00:22:59.520 | I was a search engine marketer

00:23:02.920 | and I had to learn, you know, Google AdWords and Yahoo Bing

00:23:07.000 | and how to run ads on those platforms.

00:23:10.200 | I had to learn on the fly on the job

00:23:11.600 | in my first job working at a startup.

00:23:13.800 | And it was in that space.

00:23:15.760 | And so that was, so for me,

00:23:18.840 | like when you think about like the type of skill sets

00:23:21.120 | that you might want to pick up, like as a marketer,

00:23:23.160 | like online, auction-based, right?

00:23:28.160 | Advertising, technology platforms,

00:23:30.600 | it's kind of like the baseline, it's table stakes.

00:23:32.840 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:23:33.680 | - And I didn't know it then,

00:23:35.960 | but I know it now and I appreciate it,

00:23:37.720 | that that foundational knowledge, right,

00:23:41.560 | that I was picking up when I was trying to sell

00:23:44.480 | jewelry for Macy's online,

00:23:47.640 | or women's shoes and women's clothing.

00:23:51.280 | And, you know, like those are like the catalogs

00:23:54.160 | that I had to sell, right?

00:23:56.360 | Like I was actually setting the table for myself

00:24:01.360 | to kind of move more into like a marketing,

00:24:05.680 | like a future marketing roles.

00:24:07.800 | 'Cause in business school,

00:24:09.600 | what they teach you in marketing

00:24:11.080 | is kind of like the fundamentals

00:24:13.360 | when it comes to like the frameworks

00:24:15.680 | that you're gonna need, right?

00:24:17.040 | What is the product?

00:24:18.280 | You know, how do you price it?

00:24:19.840 | How do you position it?

00:24:21.360 | - Right.

00:24:22.200 | - You know, like those kinds of things is,

00:24:25.440 | again, like the higher level thinking around marketing,

00:24:28.640 | that's what they teach you,

00:24:29.480 | but they don't teach you search engine marketing

00:24:30.920 | in business school.

00:24:31.760 | - No.

00:24:32.600 | - Right, you have to learn it either on the fly at work,

00:24:35.120 | or, you know, like Google AdWords has like the,

00:24:38.000 | you know, the ad center that, you know,

00:24:40.240 | kind of has tutorials and certifications

00:24:43.080 | and all these other things

00:24:43.920 | in order for you to better learn it.

00:24:44.800 | So just kind of unsolicited advice for anybody out there

00:24:47.520 | that wants to get into like the marketing space,

00:24:49.320 | like you and I, demand generation, growth marketing,

00:24:52.000 | like definitely set the groundwork foundation

00:24:54.800 | and learn auction-based like advertising,

00:24:57.520 | technology solutions like Google AdWords and whatnot.

00:24:59.600 | So, and so that's kind of how I got started.

00:25:01.920 | And actually that's how I got my foot in the door

00:25:04.200 | at LinkedIn, right?

00:25:05.440 | Like I came in LinkedIn as the first, you know,

00:25:09.960 | content marketer,

00:25:12.240 | 'cause we were launching at the time was sponsored,

00:25:14.960 | sponsored updates and now sponsored content, right?

00:25:18.120 | We were launching it.

00:25:19.040 | And so I was the first person hired to come in

00:25:21.240 | and help the largest advertisers

00:25:23.000 | that were part of the beta test, right?

00:25:25.560 | For the proof of concept to manage their campaigns.

00:25:29.960 | And, you know, and had it not been for that foundation

00:25:32.440 | of work that I had, you know, doing search engine marketing

00:25:35.800 | at the startup that I worked at,

00:25:37.640 | I would have not been as successful, I think,

00:25:40.080 | as I was in advertising operations

00:25:42.080 | when it comes to marketing solutions, right?

00:25:44.040 | And so, and so, and so that's, so the optimization, right?

00:25:47.320 | Like I went from like, okay, I got an MBA from, you know,

00:25:50.880 | UC Berkeley, high school, like top name brand,

00:25:54.160 | but I didn't know how to do the job.

00:25:55.640 | And so I had to learn it on the job

00:25:56.920 | and that's how I optimized.

00:25:58.400 | And then I was able to leverage that experience

00:26:00.080 | to go to LinkedIn and then like learn that experience

00:26:02.640 | and learn content marketing and that's how I optimize.

00:26:05.160 | And so when I talk about optimization,

00:26:07.320 | a lot of it is really like not taking any part

00:26:11.360 | of your experience for granted,

00:26:13.600 | learning as much as you can,

00:26:15.080 | because you never know what a particular skill set

00:26:17.120 | you're learning today, right?

00:26:19.120 | When that's gonna pay off for you tomorrow.

00:26:21.000 | And that's kind of been the case for my entire career.

00:26:23.840 | - No, I love that.

00:26:25.320 | And that's the crux of a growth mindset, right?

00:26:27.760 | Like you epitomize that.

00:26:29.080 | And I think that's probably why you and I get along

00:26:31.120 | 'cause we have a very similar perspective.

00:26:32.720 | 'Cause what you said at the very end,

00:26:34.880 | which is basically being intentional

00:26:37.320 | about what you wanna learn

00:26:38.480 | out of every single job opportunity is key.

00:26:42.400 | I remember not to date myself.

00:26:44.080 | So I graduated college in like 2001

00:26:47.400 | with a dot-com bubble burst, right?

00:26:48.880 | - A young man.

00:26:50.360 | - I am a young man.

00:26:51.920 | But like marketing jobs,

00:26:54.080 | so I graduated with a marketing degree

00:26:55.480 | and like those are the jobs

00:26:56.640 | we're getting to let go at the time

00:26:57.720 | 'cause the bubble burst, right?

00:27:00.160 | 'Cause I couldn't find anything.

00:27:02.120 | And so I took all these oddball jobs, you name it.

00:27:05.160 | I worked at a mom and pop sausage factory,

00:27:07.720 | stuffing sausages.

00:27:09.200 | And I worked as a computer technician,

00:27:12.680 | building computers back in.

00:27:13.800 | I also, the most memorable one was being in a call center

00:27:17.840 | at Wells Fargo, calling people on a Saturday morning

00:27:21.040 | on an automated dialer,

00:27:22.760 | telling them that they overdrafted by $2,

00:27:24.960 | now they own 20.

00:27:26.040 | It was like a not a conversation they wanna have.

00:27:28.760 | But to your point about learning

00:27:30.320 | and kind of optimizing your career,

00:27:32.920 | those jobs one could say, that seems really random.

00:27:37.520 | And that actually, is it beneath you?

00:27:40.120 | Like, no, nothing's ever beneath you, right?

00:27:42.600 | 'Cause if you're there to learn, you're there to learn.

00:27:44.160 | I remember like the Wells Fargo one,

00:27:45.880 | it taught me how to have a thick skin, right?

00:27:48.520 | It taught me how to talk to complete strangers

00:27:51.760 | who did not wanna talk to me.

00:27:53.400 | - Yeah, that's hard.

00:27:54.240 | - And somehow bring them around.

00:27:55.320 | And that's like marketing, that's sales, right?

00:27:57.080 | So I totally agree with you.

00:27:57.960 | There's something to get out of everything.

00:27:59.840 | And I was, I look at my girls these days,

00:28:02.200 | I'm like, "Oh, I wonder what their first job's gonna be."

00:28:03.760 | I was like, "Whatever it is."

00:28:04.680 | Like, they wanna work at Boba?

00:28:06.480 | They wanna work in a library?

00:28:07.440 | I don't even care.

00:28:08.280 | It's like, I wanna make sure they have a strong point

00:28:10.840 | of view on what skills they wanna gain.

00:28:13.000 | Yeah, so thanks for that perspective.

00:28:15.000 | - Absolutely, absolutely.

00:28:15.840 | - So when you made the shift from sales

00:28:17.680 | then back over to marketing,

00:28:19.040 | like what was that inflection point for you?

00:28:20.960 | Like, why did you make that a pivot back?

00:28:23.320 | - Yeah, no, and when you and I met, actually,

00:28:25.720 | I had pivoted from marketing over to sales.

00:28:28.000 | And just some context of why I did that is,

00:28:31.840 | when I started thinking about my career trajectory,

00:28:34.400 | I started looking at leaders within LinkedIn

00:28:37.640 | and talking to them and doing information interviews

00:28:39.840 | and just, I mean, the culture there allows itself for that.

00:28:42.680 | You can talk to anybody, right?

00:28:45.240 | And so my ambitions then, as they are today,

00:28:48.960 | was I wanna be in the C-suite, right?

00:28:52.080 | And so when I start thinking about like pathways

00:28:54.880 | into the C-suite, right, I hit a point where it's like,

00:28:59.560 | hey, I'm in the marketing side.

00:29:00.880 | I can continue to learn and grow and develop

00:29:02.680 | on the marketing side and pick up those skillsets

00:29:05.280 | and then kind of work my way up to, let's say,

00:29:07.480 | like a chief marketing officer role eventually, right?

00:29:10.480 | And I was like, oh, that could be a potential path.

00:29:15.320 | But I was thinking, but you know what?

00:29:16.760 | My interests are also broader

00:29:19.360 | and my skillset, I think, are also broader.

00:29:22.560 | And so I need to be on the revenue generating side as well,

00:29:27.560 | or at least I need to understand that.

00:29:29.120 | And I remember years ago, a mentor of mine

00:29:31.040 | in the nonprofit world who, when I was talking to him

00:29:34.080 | about like, hey, I wanna go to the private sector,

00:29:38.040 | he specifically said to me, 'cause he had done the same,

00:29:40.880 | he said, in the private sector,

00:29:42.920 | there's two types of jobs.

00:29:45.400 | There's those jobs that spend the money

00:29:47.280 | and then those jobs that make the money.

00:29:49.320 | He said, you wanna be on the side

00:29:51.160 | that makes the money, right?

00:29:53.200 | And so for me, what makes the money is the sales side, right?

00:29:55.760 | And so for me, I realized that I don't understand

00:29:58.080 | the sales side of the equation very much.

00:30:00.840 | And that's when I decided, listen,

00:30:03.120 | I think what I need to do is optimize again

00:30:06.080 | and then move in that direction

00:30:07.720 | so that I can learn that side of the equation, right?

00:30:10.280 | And that's when you and I met, right?

00:30:11.960 | And that's when we started working together

00:30:13.600 | and I was learning the sales side as I was working with you

00:30:17.000 | and understanding your value

00:30:19.080 | to what it is we're trying to do as a business unit.

00:30:22.440 | And so, and I did that for a number of years

00:30:27.600 | as a leader at LinkedIn

00:30:28.720 | and then I went to a different company

00:30:30.360 | and then I was leading a global sales team.

00:30:32.840 | And then I went back to another organization

00:30:36.000 | when I was actually managing both the sales team

00:30:39.200 | and the marketing team.

00:30:40.880 | And that was super interesting for me

00:30:42.240 | because now both funnels are under my control

00:30:47.240 | and my direction.

00:30:48.880 | And so that was fun.

00:30:49.920 | And now I'm back on the marketing side

00:30:52.760 | and part of why I'm just solely on the marketing side

00:30:54.800 | is 'cause I think marketing is more fun than sales.

00:30:57.920 | (laughing)

00:30:59.600 | And you can do a lot more interesting things

00:31:02.520 | on the marketing side and I just pursued opportunities

00:31:07.520 | that were there for me.

00:31:09.360 | And this is post-pandemic now

00:31:11.240 | and actually it was like over the...

00:31:13.320 | I've been here now for about a little over a year and a half

00:31:17.160 | and it's been great.

00:31:19.920 | And so for me, those were the reasons

00:31:23.360 | why I kind of like kept straddling

00:31:24.920 | between sales and marketing

00:31:26.760 | 'cause they're kind of like two sides of the same coin.

00:31:30.840 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:31:31.800 | - For me to make myself more employable, right?

00:31:36.360 | To make myself a more well-rounded leader on the text,

00:31:40.880 | on the text realm,

00:31:43.080 | I thought that I needed to make myself well-rounded.

00:31:46.800 | And now I can totally say like,

00:31:48.240 | and I own it, I can totally say like,

00:31:50.080 | look, it took me a while, right?

00:31:51.480 | But now I can say like, I am a go-to-market leader, right?

00:31:55.160 | And so for those folks who understand

00:31:57.280 | what go-to-market means, right?

00:31:59.680 | It's like, hey, this person has a deep understanding

00:32:01.880 | and not just how the marketing side of the equation works

00:32:04.880 | but also how sales side of the equation works.

00:32:06.600 | And when you think about like my career,

00:32:08.680 | when I think about my career prospects,

00:32:10.480 | I think that I've continued to make me like employable

00:32:13.560 | should I decide to make the next move

00:32:15.600 | or go for business.

00:32:17.200 | Negative happens to the company now,

00:32:18.400 | but so on and so forth, right?

00:32:20.080 | - Yeah, that is just amazing.

00:32:22.560 | And I think I'm jealous of you

00:32:25.800 | in a way that you discovered early on

00:32:29.680 | that you're not sure where you want to go,

00:32:32.880 | you kind of know you want to do a pivot.

00:32:35.120 | And so you took action,

00:32:37.080 | in your case, went to business school

00:32:38.520 | to kind of help you understand your possibilities to pivot

00:32:41.880 | and what you gain in developing a point of view,

00:32:44.000 | ultimately kind of understanding

00:32:45.160 | what end goal you want to go.

00:32:46.880 | And that allowed you to have the right conversations

00:32:48.920 | and exposures and informational interviews

00:32:50.640 | to kind of get that feedback of context, right?

00:32:53.560 | What advice would you give to someone

00:32:56.920 | who they're not sure if it's a time to pivot yet,

00:33:01.360 | but they just feel like there's got to be something more?

00:33:05.520 | - Yeah.

00:33:06.360 | - And let's just say, let's put everything on the table

00:33:08.400 | 'cause they may not have the,

00:33:09.640 | maybe the financial means to do business school, right?

00:33:11.400 | So like what advice would you give to them?

00:33:13.280 | - Yeah, no, so I think the first thing I would say

00:33:17.800 | is before giving any advice is whenever it happens for you,

00:33:22.800 | like it's gonna take time, right?

00:33:26.960 | So there is never, it is never too soon or too early

00:33:31.960 | to start putting the wheels in motion, right?

00:33:35.360 | Because it's gonna take time, right?

00:33:37.920 | If it's a matter of a skillset you need to pick up,

00:33:40.840 | whether it be by you going back to school

00:33:43.120 | or taking an online class or like, you know,

00:33:47.600 | going on YouTube and looking up tutorials, right?

00:33:50.560 | Like YouTube, as you know well,

00:33:52.280 | YouTube is quickly becoming like, you know,

00:33:54.760 | the most, the highest volume search engine, right?

00:33:58.840 | And everywhere, and so people are learning things

00:34:01.880 | on YouTube all the time, right?

00:34:02.840 | And so, however it is that you learn something,

00:34:05.720 | like that process itself is gonna take some time.

00:34:08.160 | - Yes.

00:34:09.160 | - So the other thing that's gonna take time,

00:34:11.720 | which is another variable of you making a pivot

00:34:13.720 | is the network and the people

00:34:15.480 | that you're gonna be able to leverage

00:34:16.920 | in order for you to make that pivot,

00:34:18.280 | whatever it is they may be, right?

00:34:21.200 | You were an engineer and now you want to be a chef, right?

00:34:26.080 | Like you're gonna have to learn that skillset somewhere,

00:34:28.800 | right?

00:34:29.640 | And when you start thinking about like your career prospects,

00:34:32.600 | you're gonna have to meet people

00:34:34.280 | who are gonna be able to guide you

00:34:35.480 | or introduce you to other folks,

00:34:36.720 | like that's also gonna take some time.

00:34:39.000 | - Yeah.

00:34:39.920 | - And so, but whether it be those two variables,

00:34:44.000 | at the end of the day,

00:34:44.920 | it starts with you and taking the leap of faith, right?

00:34:48.280 | And that's like my advice, number one,

00:34:50.920 | like take the leap of faith, right?

00:34:53.880 | If you're contemplating something,

00:34:56.880 | like wake up one morning and decide,

00:34:59.040 | I'm gonna put this in motion,

00:35:00.520 | because even if it doesn't work out for you,

00:35:02.600 | even if it doesn't go anywhere, right?

00:35:04.880 | Like you're giving yourself an at-bat, right?

00:35:07.960 | To use like a sports analogy, right?

00:35:10.160 | Like you're not gonna get a base hit

00:35:12.880 | if you don't step up to the plate and take a swing.

00:35:15.360 | - Yeah.

00:35:16.200 | - You're just gonna be a spectator, right?

00:35:17.880 | And so that'd be my advice, number one,

00:35:19.640 | like take a leap of faith.

00:35:21.120 | Like have faith in yourself that something may happen.

00:35:22.920 | Even if it doesn't, at least you tried, right?

00:35:26.160 | And then the other part is I've alluded to,

00:35:28.200 | the other two things I would say

00:35:29.200 | is you have to always be learning, right?

00:35:32.520 | You can't assume that you've hit,

00:35:35.200 | like the learning, learning is a journey,

00:35:37.560 | it's not a destination.

00:35:38.960 | - Yep.

00:35:39.800 | - Right?

00:35:40.640 | Like you just don't like, I've arrived,

00:35:42.240 | I've learned everything I need to learn,

00:35:43.880 | I don't need to do anything anymore.

00:35:45.360 | No, that's not the way it works.

00:35:46.480 | Like you have to constantly be learning new things,

00:35:50.640 | either as an IC, an individual contributor,

00:35:52.840 | who's gonna be running campaigns or whatnot,

00:35:55.080 | or as a leader, who's gonna be managing and leading teams.

00:35:57.960 | And I'll just give you a quick example.

00:35:59.400 | Like coming into this role that I'm at,

00:36:02.520 | I didn't really know search engine optimization, right?

00:36:06.120 | I didn't, which is different from search engine marketing,

00:36:08.680 | which I knew, right?

00:36:09.880 | 'Cause marketing is like,

00:36:11.240 | you have a budget for your campaigns,

00:36:12.720 | you're running campaigns, you're trying to get conversions,

00:36:14.520 | you're looking at click-through rate

00:36:15.880 | and all that other stuff.

00:36:17.040 | SEO is different, SEO is like the organic traffic

00:36:19.680 | that is coming to your website, how are they getting it?

00:36:21.840 | - Yeah.

00:36:22.680 | - How do you optimize your website, right?

00:36:23.640 | Like it's different, they're connected,

00:36:26.600 | but they're different things, right?

00:36:28.200 | And so it was one of the skillsets

00:36:30.120 | that I didn't really know a lot about.

00:36:31.320 | So I had to learn, right?

00:36:33.840 | What tools do we use to execute on it?

00:36:36.200 | Like what are some of the key performance indicators

00:36:38.760 | that I need to pay attention to?

00:36:40.240 | What are best practices?

00:36:41.360 | Who are the best people that are looking at it?

00:36:42.920 | Like, you know, so I was excited

00:36:45.560 | because I got to learn something new and something different

00:36:47.720 | that is now part of my toolbox.

00:36:49.240 | - Yeah.

00:36:50.400 | - And so from a learning standpoint, that's what,

00:36:52.400 | like I said, you gotta always be learning.

00:36:53.920 | And then the last part is, as I already alluded to,

00:36:55.760 | is like, you gotta build a network.

00:36:57.160 | And even if you're the most introverted person,

00:37:01.120 | like yourself,

00:37:01.960 | like I think you probably consider yourself an introvert,

00:37:03.760 | but you are one of the most socially adept human beings

00:37:07.720 | that I've met in my life, right?

00:37:09.800 | - Thank you.

00:37:10.640 | - And part of it is because you and your growth, right?

00:37:13.160 | You stress yourself out, you realize,

00:37:14.880 | hey, there's value in this.

00:37:16.600 | I can't just not speak to people.

00:37:18.160 | You use the example of you being at Wells Fargo

00:37:19.840 | and you got comfortable with talking to people

00:37:21.800 | you don't know,

00:37:22.640 | especially people who don't wanna talk to you, right?

00:37:24.680 | And so, you know, so I would say today,

00:37:26.760 | like the tin that I know has social grace,

00:37:30.000 | whereas like maybe the tin graduating from college

00:37:32.280 | was probably like,

00:37:33.120 | oh no, I don't wanna talk to anybody

00:37:34.520 | and look at you now, right?

00:37:35.440 | And so like learning how to build relationships,

00:37:38.720 | maintain them over the course of your career

00:37:40.680 | is gonna be another key component.

00:37:41.840 | So I would say like, if you do those three things,

00:37:44.400 | take the leap of faith,

00:37:46.040 | continue to learn and build a network

00:37:48.400 | for where it is that you wanna go,

00:37:49.840 | I think those are some three good ingredients

00:37:51.960 | for you to be successful.

00:37:53.320 | - Oh man, plus one to all of that.

00:37:55.280 | I think taking the leap of faith

00:37:57.200 | is essentially why I'm building this video channel, right?

00:38:00.360 | 'Cause you know what I've been discovering

00:38:02.400 | in my conversation with people,

00:38:03.800 | especially right now, I'm gonna time date this video.

00:38:07.280 | This is 2023.

00:38:09.000 | We're hopefully coming out of the pandemic.

00:38:11.080 | The market is in a terrible place

00:38:13.080 | and job stability is,

00:38:15.920 | can't take it for granted anymore.

00:38:17.080 | Doesn't matter how awesome you are.

00:38:18.800 | Business decisions are made regardless of performance.

00:38:20.840 | And so I'm discovering in my conversations with people,

00:38:24.080 | 'cause you know, I opened myself up

00:38:25.520 | to kind of mentor people, right?

00:38:26.800 | And the common feedback I got

00:38:29.400 | was a side of fears around the true fears

00:38:31.880 | of financial security,

00:38:32.720 | especially for like single income family,

00:38:36.800 | head of households,

00:38:37.640 | or you have parents who need financial support,

00:38:39.640 | besides the financial piece of it.

00:38:41.400 | There's a true fear around,

00:38:45.240 | I wanted to make a pivot or I wanted to make a change.

00:38:48.040 | I don't know if my skills can translate.

00:38:51.320 | I have a preconceived notion about what a job is

00:38:54.120 | that kind of want to do,

00:38:56.040 | but based on my limited exposure to that,

00:38:58.320 | that's all it is.

00:38:59.160 | And I'm missing this whole pie of what actually it is,

00:39:02.280 | but I'm still here.

00:39:04.000 | And because I'm not talking to anyone,

00:39:05.400 | I have assumptions about what that job requires

00:39:07.720 | based on the job description.

00:39:09.720 | On paper, I don't think I qualify anymore.

00:39:11.480 | I'm not even gonna try.

00:39:12.320 | You know why?

00:39:13.160 | 'Cause there's like thousands of people

00:39:14.000 | who just entered a job market due to layoffs

00:39:16.240 | and they're probably applying as well.

00:39:17.600 | And I essentially eliminate myself

00:39:20.400 | from any career opportunity before I even get started.

00:39:22.880 | To your point,

00:39:23.800 | you just gotta take that leap of faith, right?

00:39:25.520 | Leverage the network you know.

00:39:26.920 | Talk to people.

00:39:28.240 | Do I really understand the thing?

00:39:29.720 | And again, the purpose of this whole video series

00:39:31.840 | is to talk about all the ins and outs of all these fields

00:39:34.160 | and make you realize,

00:39:35.280 | shoot, it's a lot more broad than I previously realized.

00:39:38.520 | Now I know how to have a conversation with someone.

00:39:40.240 | So I'm really glad you talked about that piece of it,

00:39:42.440 | Hector, 'cause I totally agree.

00:39:44.080 | The last thing I wanna kind of talk about with you, Hector,

00:39:47.200 | is in my conversations with you,

00:39:50.040 | you're one of the individuals I would define

00:39:52.520 | as your genuine self outside of work

00:39:57.520 | is probably very closely aligned to who you are at work.

00:40:01.240 | Like Hector is Hector, right?

00:40:03.560 | Now I'm pretty sure it was a journey to get there.

00:40:05.680 | And a lot of people,

00:40:06.520 | there are two different people at work and at home.

00:40:09.840 | Can you tell us a little bit

00:40:10.680 | about like what that self-discovery

00:40:14.120 | or kind of arriving to who your true sense of self was

00:40:18.000 | and how that carries on to work

00:40:19.600 | and just your thought around just, you know,

00:40:21.680 | whether it's culture building

00:40:23.280 | or things that are kind of personally important to you

00:40:25.600 | and how they kind of transcend just work.

00:40:27.920 | Can you just tell us a little bit about that?

00:40:29.320 | - Yeah, you know, thanks for asking that.

00:40:32.160 | You know, for me,

00:40:33.920 | like I'm a first generation college grad in my family,

00:40:36.720 | right?

00:40:37.840 | There were no professionals in my sphere growing up

00:40:41.360 | and even at a young adult.

00:40:43.400 | And so I guess you can say like my family

00:40:46.520 | is kind of new to the professional game, right?

00:40:49.280 | And so walking into like a career pathway

00:40:53.800 | as a person of color, right?

00:40:55.920 | You heard heard from others, you know,

00:40:59.160 | as you're starting a career about like, you know,

00:41:01.880 | like you have to do this dance

00:41:03.640 | or there's like your work persona

00:41:05.840 | and then there's like your home persona, right?

00:41:08.760 | And you have to keep them separate and this and that.

00:41:11.240 | And that's real, man, that's a real argument.

00:41:13.640 | And there's people out there

00:41:14.480 | who truly struggled on a regular basis.

00:41:17.880 | And for me though, man, you know,

00:41:21.400 | what I realized earlier on is that when I was my true self,

00:41:26.400 | I ended up seeing the best results for me professionally.

00:41:31.280 | And, you know, when I try to be somebody

00:41:35.880 | that I wasn't in the workplace, it just, you know,

00:41:38.600 | I couldn't fake it, you know,

00:41:40.280 | and people would take notice and be turned off by that

00:41:43.520 | and I wasn't being as successful in the workplace

00:41:46.440 | as I was when I was just being my true self.

00:41:50.320 | And, you know, and I think part of it

00:41:52.840 | and this is part of my excellent superpower, I think,

00:41:55.000 | in the workplace is, you know,

00:41:56.520 | I've been told that I have like contagious, positive energy.

00:42:00.040 | - You do.

00:42:01.000 | - I'm just a positive person, man.

00:42:02.440 | And like part of it is 'cause I feel blessed

00:42:04.520 | for how I started my life and my family

00:42:07.480 | and to where I am today.

00:42:08.680 | And I'm super blessed to be, you know,

00:42:11.200 | to have had the opportunities that I continue to have.

00:42:13.200 | And I think for me, it's a daily reminder of that.

00:42:16.560 | And so for me, it's like, man, I'm living a charmed life.

00:42:18.720 | Like there are literally hundreds of millions of people

00:42:21.280 | on the face of this earth

00:42:22.240 | who would trade places with me in a heartbeat.

00:42:24.720 | - Yeah. - Right?

00:42:25.960 | And so I try to keep that perspective.

00:42:27.560 | And so that's why for me, when I show up to work,

00:42:30.320 | it's like, look, what you see is what you get.

00:42:32.200 | And I'm gonna be my authentic self

00:42:35.440 | because I know me being my authentic self

00:42:37.880 | is when I bring my best version

00:42:39.760 | of the professional to work.

00:42:41.200 | And that's when you're gonna get the best out of me.

00:42:43.240 | Right? - Yeah.

00:42:44.080 | - And if you want the best out of me,

00:42:45.400 | then you have to support me and me being my authentic self.

00:42:48.520 | If you can't do that, guess what?

00:42:49.760 | You're not gonna get the best of me.

00:42:51.560 | And so, and I'm not gonna do it on purpose.

00:42:53.760 | That just naturally was gonna happen.

00:42:56.160 | And so for me, I realized that I have to be authentic.

00:43:00.600 | And people have told me that too.

00:43:01.800 | Like when they work with me or after the fact,

00:43:03.680 | they said, "Hey, I like how authentic you are

00:43:06.000 | and you don't sugarcoat things,

00:43:09.120 | but then at the same time, you're also not,

00:43:11.080 | you know, really negative about things."

00:43:12.680 | And so for me, it was key to do that

00:43:14.720 | and recognize that not everybody has that luxury, right?

00:43:19.720 | And I don't think I've ever been hindered by that,

00:43:22.440 | to be honest with you.

00:43:23.280 | I think part of it is, you know, skill set and experience

00:43:26.360 | and working with cool people like you

00:43:27.680 | and, you know, those kinds of workplaces.

00:43:29.800 | But I think for me, it's super important

00:43:31.600 | for you to just be authentic and not be fake.

00:43:35.400 | And especially when you get into a leadership role, right?

00:43:39.600 | Like once you're in a leadership role,

00:43:42.200 | you know that the work is different.

00:43:44.000 | It's not about you and your success anymore, right?

00:43:48.680 | It's about your team's success.

00:43:50.200 | And that's how you are successful as a leader,

00:43:53.280 | is if your team is successful, right?

00:43:55.240 | And so if you have a growth marketing manager,

00:43:58.480 | look, unless they're hitting their goals and their targets

00:44:00.440 | and they're, you know, they're excelling,

00:44:03.080 | then you're not, you're failing them as a manager

00:44:05.760 | if you're not helping them realize that for themselves.

00:44:07.880 | - Yeah.

00:44:09.160 | - And so, and I realized that people respond

00:44:10.960 | to leaders who are authentic, who are like,

00:44:14.080 | "Hey man, I care about you as a human being

00:44:15.560 | "as much as I care about you with getting the job done.

00:44:18.400 | "And let me understand that about you and not be fake."

00:44:22.320 | And so I'm glad you brought that up 'cause that's another one

00:44:25.400 | of my, you know, X-Men superpowers is authenticity

00:44:28.640 | and it's carried me a long way.

00:44:30.400 | And I mean, I'm gonna continue to do the same thing

00:44:32.080 | so long as I'm a professional, so.

00:44:33.920 | - Yeah.

00:44:34.920 | Yeah, it's kind of similar to my journey

00:44:38.840 | in that we have a personality trait

00:44:41.760 | where we're friendly and optimistic.

00:44:44.280 | I think for me, so it went through the spectrum

00:44:49.280 | where I actually started my career very much extroverted.

00:44:52.600 | I was like your classic ENFP.

00:44:54.760 | I'm now INTJ.

00:44:56.360 | I don't know if that's because,

00:44:57.200 | I don't know if it's because I'm managing people now

00:44:59.840 | and I need my own time.

00:45:01.520 | I don't know what that is.

00:45:03.280 | But I remember early in my career,

00:45:05.040 | I tried to be myself at work and I did,

00:45:10.000 | but what it looked like was I had way too much energy

00:45:12.880 | for people.

00:45:13.720 | And I'm being myself,

00:45:18.800 | but I didn't necessarily have the discipline

00:45:22.000 | or know how to apply, kind of put some restraint around it.

00:45:26.680 | Well, restraint is the wrong word

00:45:27.600 | 'cause we're talking about being ourselves,

00:45:28.640 | but like the packaging and how people receive that

00:45:31.280 | is different, right?

00:45:32.120 | - You're optimizing.

00:45:33.160 | - Yeah, optimizing.

00:45:34.200 | Yeah, like now I'm at a different place now

00:45:37.040 | where I think the key that I had unlocked

00:45:39.520 | was I had to be okay with being vulnerable.

00:45:42.560 | And I didn't experience how to be vulnerable

00:45:46.200 | until it hit rock bottom, right?

00:45:48.040 | I had some really difficult managers

00:45:52.120 | and things that really made me question

00:45:55.080 | my employment viability, am I worth it as an employee

00:46:00.320 | and all these kinds of things.

00:46:01.400 | And I had to come out of that and figure out,

00:46:04.480 | hey, like, what is the nugget of truth in the criticism?

00:46:07.720 | And I'll just focus on that and you kind of optimize that.

00:46:10.920 | And then what happened was I started getting

00:46:12.640 | more comfortable in my shoes.

00:46:14.280 | And then so I reapplied it back

00:46:15.880 | to being my true self at work.

00:46:17.280 | Now it's like, you know what?

00:46:18.120 | Okay, there's all of these things that I used to,

00:46:20.920 | I used to say, I'm an extrovert or whatever.

00:46:23.000 | But that's actually not who I am.

00:46:25.160 | It's actually, extroversion was the vehicle

00:46:27.640 | to communicate genuineness.

00:46:30.200 | Okay, so like being genuine, transparent,

00:46:32.840 | that packaging can look different.

00:46:34.160 | And now I'm over here.

00:46:35.200 | And so it's a quieter and more thoughtful point of view.

00:46:38.400 | Right, but again, I'm still bringing myself to work.

00:46:40.800 | But I think that's the things

00:46:42.080 | that I would kind of tell my young self.

00:46:43.520 | It's like, look, go through the time,

00:46:45.680 | take the lumps, it's gonna happen.

00:46:49.000 | But if you can find a way to be yourself at work

00:46:52.320 | in the core areas that are important to you, right?

00:46:54.920 | You don't have to do everything, you know,

00:46:56.680 | but like, that's a lot less work, you know, at work.

00:47:01.360 | - Yeah, no, totally, man.

00:47:02.440 | And you know, man, I commend you and you inspire me, Tim,

00:47:05.160 | by, you know, what you shared,

00:47:07.040 | because, you know, we cross paths in our careers

00:47:10.360 | at certain points, right?

00:47:12.280 | And we were both on our journeys towards here

00:47:15.640 | and then wherever else we're gonna go.

00:47:17.200 | And I intend on being your friend for a long time, Tim.

00:47:20.040 | So I look forward to seeing more growth.

00:47:22.400 | - Yeah.

00:47:23.240 | - But I can see that, man.

00:47:24.080 | Like listening to you talk now and the way that you are

00:47:26.720 | and thinking about how you were, I don't know,

00:47:29.280 | five, six years ago when we worked together.

00:47:31.680 | I mean, isn't that long now?

00:47:33.120 | More, actually more like-

00:47:34.160 | - More, yeah, it's like seven years ago.

00:47:36.040 | - Yeah, seven years ago, right?

00:47:36.960 | It's funny, it's great to see how you have evolved,

00:47:41.320 | how we both have evolved.

00:47:42.200 | And you're absolutely right, man.

00:47:43.160 | Like, I think, like, I'm not surprised to see you

00:47:45.360 | go from like an E to an I, right?

00:47:47.360 | And like, you know, for those folks who are listening,

00:47:50.400 | who are like, what the hell are you talking about?

00:47:51.640 | - The Myers-Briggs, yeah.

00:47:52.480 | - The Myers-Briggs, right?

00:47:53.520 | And I said, remember my, and I agree with you.

00:47:55.880 | Like, I used to be, seven years ago, 10 years ago,

00:47:59.600 | I used to be where in order for me

00:48:01.480 | to kind of recharge my batteries,

00:48:02.960 | I would need to be around other people, right?

00:48:06.080 | Let's go out for happy hour.

00:48:07.200 | Let's go hang out.

00:48:08.040 | Let's go do like, that's how I recharge my batteries

00:48:10.240 | after a long day.

00:48:11.400 | Now, actually, as an inspiring introvert,

00:48:15.000 | like I enjoy my time by myself, man.

00:48:17.200 | Like, I'm good.

00:48:18.480 | I'm just gonna go and like go for a walk

00:48:22.360 | or I'm just gonna go at home and just like,

00:48:24.640 | let me read a few articles and just, you know,

00:48:26.600 | get in my head.

00:48:27.440 | And so, you know, I think that's a key

00:48:29.400 | that everybody needs to recognize that, you know,

00:48:33.120 | as a human being, as a professional,

00:48:35.280 | when you continue to evolve,

00:48:36.480 | or at least you should continue to evolve.

00:48:38.360 | And I think one of the best tools for your evolution

00:48:42.120 | is the feedback that you get from people, right?

00:48:45.320 | Whether it be like direct them telling you something

00:48:48.400 | or like nonverbal communication,

00:48:51.800 | how people respond to you physically

00:48:53.760 | when they're around you, right?

00:48:55.960 | I think feedback, feedback is a gift.

00:48:58.760 | And that's one of the things that I tell my direct report

00:49:02.280 | to my mentees all the time as I give them feedback.

00:49:04.920 | I say, look, like feedback is a gift.

00:49:06.960 | And whether you agree with it or not,

00:49:08.800 | that's not for me to tell you what to do about, right?

00:49:11.800 | That's for you to decide how much of the feedback

00:49:15.920 | that you're getting is noise

00:49:17.520 | and how much is it actually gonna be valuable

00:49:20.280 | and what are you gonna do with it

00:49:22.160 | to help make yourself a better human being

00:49:24.440 | and a better leader, right?

00:49:25.680 | And so, some people don't shy away from feedback

00:49:29.000 | and it might be tough to hear, but it gets better

00:49:32.160 | 'cause as you get older, as you know,

00:49:34.000 | tough feedback after a while, you're just like,

00:49:37.040 | yeah, I can take it, I'm a grown person.

00:49:38.960 | Like, I don't, you know, but pretty much important.

00:49:42.640 | - You know, it's funny.

00:49:44.240 | I've talked to a lot of people in your position,

00:49:48.040 | like in terms of seniority, like in our experience level,

00:49:51.360 | everyone has agreed with that exact same point,

00:49:53.920 | which is being comfortable and willing to take feedback

00:49:57.800 | as one half of the picture

00:49:59.800 | and be able to separate out the noise

00:50:01.360 | versus the truth is the other one.

00:50:02.960 | And if that's one thing they could tell their younger self,

00:50:05.440 | that would be it, right?

00:50:06.280 | And so, I think for everyone who's listening to this,

00:50:07.960 | I think it's important,

00:50:09.120 | especially if you are in a role, for example,

00:50:11.840 | where you're actually creating something,

00:50:13.360 | like a creative or you're a writer,

00:50:15.000 | where your performance is based

00:50:17.680 | on subjective feedback sometimes, not just objective.

00:50:20.720 | And you have to find a way to, again,

00:50:22.760 | separate out that noise and come to your happy place,

00:50:24.920 | but figure out what actually is true.

00:50:27.360 | And sometimes actually going back to that person

00:50:29.440 | and give you feedback

00:50:31.240 | and talking about that one nugget of truth

00:50:33.440 | and kind of blowing up and kind of not blow up,

00:50:35.240 | but like to dive into that,

00:50:37.080 | actually demonstrates a lot of maturity.

00:50:39.160 | - People respect that.

00:50:41.240 | People will totally.

00:50:42.800 | - Yeah.

00:50:43.640 | So Hector, I just want to thank you for your time.

00:50:45.080 | You know, I think that the three summations

00:50:47.480 | you had at the end, which is really important.

00:50:48.760 | For anyone who's watching this video and looking at,

00:50:51.600 | hey, how do I even make a pivot

00:50:53.480 | or how do I maybe reimagine my career?

00:50:55.800 | It's like, you got to take a leap of faith,

00:50:59.360 | bet on yourself, believe in yourself, right?

00:51:02.200 | Always learn, figure out how to grow.

00:51:04.240 | Could be hard skill or soft skill.

00:51:05.880 | There's no such thing as not learning.

00:51:08.040 | And third one is look into your network

00:51:10.120 | and figure out who you can talk to

00:51:11.400 | to learn more about stuff

00:51:12.600 | and create opportunity, right?

00:51:14.560 | - Yeah.

00:51:15.400 | - Well, Hector, I just want to thank you for your time.

00:51:16.440 | This is really helpful for me, quite frankly,

00:51:18.240 | and hopefully for all of our viewers.

00:51:20.080 | Hopefully we can come back and talk to you again.

00:51:21.680 | - Yeah, absolutely.

00:51:22.520 | Anytime, anytime.

00:51:23.360 | For you, buddy, anything, man.

00:51:24.480 | - All right, awesome.

00:51:25.320 | Thanks, Hector.

00:51:26.160 | - Fine, you too.

00:51:27.000 | (gentle music)

00:51:29.600 | (gentle music)

00:51:32.180 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

How To Drive Pipeline And Sales Engagement With Demand Generation And Growth Marketing

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