Garry Kasparov: Magnus Carlsen is a Lethal Combination of Fischer and Karpov | Lex Fridman Podcast
00:00:00.000 | - Where do you put Magnus Carlsen,
00:00:03.280 | the current world champion in the list of all time greats?
00:00:06.220 | In terms of style, moments of brilliance, consistency?
00:00:11.240 | - It's a tricky question.
00:00:12.320 | You know, the moment you start ranking--
00:00:14.920 | - Yeah, you lose something?
00:00:16.920 | - It's the, I think it's not fair
00:00:20.200 | because it's the, any new generation knows much more
00:00:25.200 | about the game than the previous one.
00:00:28.460 | So when people say, oh, Gary was the greatest,
00:00:30.960 | Fisher was the greatest, Magnus was the greatest,
00:00:33.020 | it disregard the fact that the great players of the past,
00:00:37.700 | whether Lasky or Capaplanca, Lokian,
00:00:40.140 | I mean, they knew so little about chess by today's standards.
00:00:43.260 | I mean, do they, just any kid, you know,
00:00:44.940 | that spent few years, you know,
00:00:46.440 | with his or her chess computer
00:00:49.980 | and knows much more about the game,
00:00:51.460 | simply just because you have access to this information.
00:00:54.300 | And it has been discovered generation after generation.
00:00:56.820 | We added more and more knowledge to the game of chess.
00:01:00.220 | It's about the gap between the world champion
00:01:03.700 | and the rest of the field.
00:01:05.080 | So it's the, now, if you look at the gap,
00:01:08.580 | then probably Fisher, you know, could be on top,
00:01:11.640 | but very short period of time.
00:01:13.140 | Then you should also add a time factor.
00:01:15.300 | I was on top, not as big as Fisher, but much longer.
00:01:19.620 | So, and also, unlike Fisher,
00:01:21.780 | I succeeded in beating next generation.
00:01:25.100 | - Here's the question.
00:01:26.260 | - Yeah.
00:01:27.100 | - Let's see if you still got the fire,
00:01:28.140 | speaking of the next generation,
00:01:29.300 | because you did succeed beating the next generation.
00:01:32.060 | - Next, it's close.
00:01:32.980 | Okay, Anand, short Anand, the sheer of,
00:01:36.260 | Kramnik is already 12 years younger.
00:01:37.820 | So that's a neck, that's, but still yet,
00:01:39.620 | I competed with them and I just, I beat most of them.
00:01:43.340 | And I was still dominant when I left at age 41.
00:01:47.580 | So back to Magnus.
00:01:50.180 | Magnus, I mean, consistency is phenomenal.
00:01:53.620 | The reason Magnus is on top and it's,
00:01:57.980 | seems unbeatable today,
00:01:59.980 | Magnus is a lethal combination of Fisher and Karpov,
00:02:04.060 | which is very, it's very unusual
00:02:06.260 | because Fisher's style was very dynamic,
00:02:08.220 | just fighting to the last point,
00:02:10.100 | I mean, just using every resource available.
00:02:12.460 | Karpov was very different.
00:02:14.660 | It's just, he had an unparalleled ability
00:02:18.020 | to use the, every piece with a maximum effect,
00:02:20.940 | just its minimal resources always produce maximum effect.
00:02:25.380 | So now imagine that you merge these two styles.
00:02:28.500 | So it's like, it's squeezing every stone for a drop of water,
00:02:33.500 | but doing it just for 50, 60, 70, 80 moves.
00:02:38.420 | I mean, Magnus could go on as long as Fisher
00:02:40.620 | with all his passion and energy,
00:02:42.300 | and at the same time being as meticulous
00:02:44.820 | and deadly as Karpov by just using every little advantage.
00:02:50.220 | So, and he has good, you know, very good health.
00:02:53.940 | It's important.
00:02:54.780 | I mean, physical conditions are, by the way, very important.
00:02:56.820 | So a lot of people don't recognize it.
00:02:58.100 | There are latest studies shows that chess players
00:03:00.300 | burn thousands of calories during the game.
00:03:04.300 | So that puts him on the top of this field
00:03:07.860 | of the world champions.
00:03:09.340 | But again, it's the discussion that is,
00:03:12.820 | I saw recently in internet,
00:03:14.060 | whether Garry Kasparov of his peak, let's say late eighties
00:03:18.100 | could beat Magnus Carlsen today.
00:03:19.980 | I mean, it's totally irrelevant
00:03:20.940 | because Garry Kasparov in 1989, okay,
00:03:24.260 | has played great chess, but still I knew very little
00:03:28.100 | about chess compared to Magnus Carlsen in 2019,
00:03:30.500 | who by the way, learned from me as well.
00:03:32.220 | So that's why, yeah.
00:03:33.820 | I'm extremely cautious in making any judgment
00:03:37.380 | that involves, you know, time gaps.
00:03:39.940 | You ask, you know, soccer fans.
00:03:42.100 | So who is your favorite, Pele, Maradona or Messi?
00:03:45.300 | Yeah.
00:03:46.140 | Yeah. Who's your favorite?
00:03:47.300 | Messi.
00:03:48.140 | Messi.
00:03:48.980 | Why?
00:03:49.980 | Because-
00:03:50.820 | Maybe Maradona, maybe.
00:03:51.780 | No, because you're younger, but that's simple.
00:03:53.300 | Your instinctive answer is correct
00:03:54.980 | because you didn't see Maradona in action.
00:03:57.740 | I saw all of them in action, so that's why.
00:03:59.940 | But since, you know, when I was, you know,
00:04:02.460 | just following it, you know, just it's Pele and Maradona,
00:04:05.060 | they were just, you know, they were big stars.
00:04:06.940 | And it's Messi's already just,
00:04:08.500 | I was gradually losing interest in just other things.
00:04:12.060 | So I remember Pele in 1970, the final match Brazil-Italy.
00:04:15.460 | So that's the first World Cup soccer I watched.
00:04:18.980 | So that's the, and actually my answer when I just,
00:04:22.540 | when I just, you know,
00:04:23.620 | because I was asked this question as well.
00:04:25.740 | So I say that it's just,
00:04:27.060 | while it's impossible to make a choice,
00:04:28.860 | I would still probably go with Maradona for a simple reason.
00:04:31.700 | The Brazilian team in 1970 could have won without Pele.
00:04:35.180 | It was absolutely great.
00:04:36.460 | Still could have won, maybe, but it is,
00:04:39.140 | the Argentinian team in 1986 without Maradona
00:04:41.940 | would not be in the final.
00:04:42.780 | That's right.
00:04:43.620 | And Messi, he still hasn't won a title.
00:04:46.660 | That's, that's-
00:04:47.500 | - Could argue for that for an hour,
00:04:48.940 | but you could say, if you ask Maradona,
00:04:52.060 | if you look in his eyes,
00:04:53.260 | especially let's say Garry Kasparov in 1989,
00:04:56.860 | he would have said,
00:04:58.540 | "I was sure as hell would beat Magnus Carlsen."
00:05:01.700 | - Yeah, just simply because-
00:05:02.540 | - The confidence, the fire.
00:05:03.820 | - Simply because, simply because, again,
00:05:06.060 | it's just they saw me in action.
00:05:07.420 | So this, again, it's the age factor that's important.
00:05:10.220 | Therefore, with the passion and energy
00:05:11.980 | and being equipped with all modern ideas.
00:05:15.020 | But again, then you make a very just important assumption
00:05:19.220 | that you could empower Garry Kasparov in '89
00:05:22.020 | with all ideas that have been accumulated over 30 years.
00:05:24.900 | That would not be Garry Kasparov.
00:05:26.020 | That would be someone else.
00:05:27.620 | Because again, I belong to 1989.
00:05:29.620 | I was way ahead of the field.
00:05:32.260 | And I beat Karpov several times
00:05:35.100 | in the world championship matches.
00:05:36.500 | And I crossed 2,800, which, by the way,
00:05:39.700 | if you look at the, in rating,
00:05:41.780 | which is just, even today,
00:05:44.780 | so this is the rating that I retired.
00:05:46.980 | So it's still, it's just, it's a top two, two, three.
00:05:50.420 | So that's, it's Karwana and Deag.
00:05:52.140 | It's about the same rating now.
00:05:53.860 | And I crossed 2,800 in 1990.
00:05:56.700 | Well, just you look at the inflation.
00:05:58.300 | When I crossed 2,800 in 1990,
00:06:00.740 | there was only one player in 2,700 category,
00:06:03.060 | Anatoly Karpov.
00:06:04.060 | Now we had more than 50.
00:06:05.580 | So just, when you see this,
00:06:07.020 | so if you add inflation, so I think my 2,851,
00:06:10.700 | it could probably, could be more valuable
00:06:13.860 | as Magnus 2882, which was his highest rating.
00:06:17.540 | But anyway, again, too many hypotheticals.
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