Can a Woman Preach If Elders Affirm It?
00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)
00:00:02.580 | We open a new week with a leadership question, Pastor John.
00:00:09.200 | Does 1 Timothy 2.12 leave open the possibility
00:00:13.160 | that women are permitted to preach
00:00:15.160 | in the weekly gathering of a local church
00:00:18.320 | as an extension of the male elders of the church
00:00:21.600 | or as an expression under their governing authority?
00:00:26.600 | For example, is the wife of a pastor free to preach
00:00:30.200 | on Sunday morning?
00:00:31.480 | What would you say, Pastor John?
00:00:33.080 | Well, I don't wanna assume that any of our listeners
00:00:38.160 | have all the biblical foundations in place
00:00:41.600 | for doing this kind of refined application thinking.
00:00:45.680 | So let me put a few things in place
00:00:47.960 | and then I'll specifically answer the question.
00:00:51.560 | Here's the text that we're talking about.
00:00:56.120 | 1 Timothy 2.11-14.
00:00:58.360 | Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
00:01:02.400 | I do not permit a woman to teach
00:01:04.740 | or to exercise authority over a man.
00:01:07.520 | Rather, she is to remain quiet.
00:01:10.600 | For Adam was formed first, then Eve,
00:01:13.720 | and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived
00:01:17.160 | and became a transgressor.
00:01:19.600 | So let me work backward in that text
00:01:22.240 | toward my answer to the question.
00:01:25.360 | And I would remind the listeners
00:01:29.440 | that every one of these comments raises more questions.
00:01:34.440 | So there is a book, little book,
00:01:36.920 | called "50 Crucial Questions About Manhood and Womanhood"
00:01:39.720 | that Wayne Goodman and I did.
00:01:41.180 | And it's free online at DesiringGod.pdf.
00:01:44.400 | And if you have more questions,
00:01:46.080 | I hope they're answered there.
00:01:47.880 | At least some of them will be, I hope.
00:01:50.080 | So Paul gives two reasons,
00:01:52.920 | and they're not the only ones,
00:01:54.320 | for why he would limit the teaching and governing office
00:01:59.320 | of the church to spiritually qualified men.
00:02:04.880 | Reason number one, verse 13.
00:02:06.720 | Adam was formed first, then Eve.
00:02:09.320 | This is shorthand for about eight to 10 pointers
00:02:13.160 | in Genesis 1-3 that God intended the man
00:02:15.800 | to bear a unique responsibility,
00:02:18.560 | not sole responsibility,
00:02:20.120 | but unique and special responsibility
00:02:22.160 | for leadership in relation to women.
00:02:24.920 | That man was created first is one of those
00:02:28.840 | eight to 10 pointers,
00:02:30.880 | and in a sense symbolizes all the others.
00:02:34.440 | You are there first,
00:02:36.120 | you bear first responsibility to lead, protect,
00:02:40.080 | especially when it comes to attacks from outside,
00:02:42.360 | which was just about to happen in chapter three
00:02:45.520 | as Satan approaches the couple,
00:02:47.960 | who will take up responsibility to be the protector
00:02:51.600 | and the spokesman here,
00:02:53.040 | and give leadership in the face of this kind of opposition.
00:02:55.680 | So that's number one.
00:02:56.960 | Adam was formed first, then Eve.
00:02:59.200 | Second argument he gives is based on
00:03:04.200 | that order being ignored,
00:03:10.240 | namely when Satan comes,
00:03:13.760 | and it appears that both Adam and Eve are present.
00:03:18.440 | That's pretty plain in the text in chapter three,
00:03:23.000 | verse six of Genesis.
00:03:25.320 | Adam and Eve ignored that order,
00:03:28.000 | and Paul says, "Adam was not deceived,
00:03:31.440 | "but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
00:03:34.760 | What does that mean?
00:03:36.520 | There's a sense in which Adam was deceived.
00:03:38.880 | He did eat.
00:03:40.360 | In fact, when Paul treats the fall of man in Romans five,
00:03:45.360 | he lays the guilt entirely on Adam,
00:03:48.000 | never even mentioning Eve as the guilty party here.
00:03:53.000 | So my understanding is not that Paul is drawing attention
00:03:56.960 | to a woman's greater gullibility,
00:03:59.440 | although in reality,
00:04:01.800 | I would say men are more gullible in some things
00:04:05.800 | and women are more gullible in some things.
00:04:08.040 | Lots of studies have been done
00:04:09.600 | on the kinds of advertising that draw men in
00:04:12.160 | and the kind that draw women in,
00:04:13.920 | and we are all differently gullible,
00:04:17.880 | and so I don't want to be naive
00:04:19.320 | and say we're exactly the same in our gullibility,
00:04:21.840 | but I'm not sure that's the focus of Paul here.
00:04:25.040 | The main point is the reason she was deceived
00:04:28.920 | is that the deceiver lured her and Adam
00:04:33.400 | to switch places that God had appointed.
00:04:36.600 | It's as if the general and the colonel,
00:04:39.240 | the man and the woman,
00:04:40.080 | the general and the colonel rode up to the enemy together,
00:04:44.800 | and the enemy utterly ignored the general,
00:04:47.600 | spoke directly to the colonel,
00:04:50.200 | and they both, the general and the colonel, let it happen.
00:04:53.800 | So Genesis 3:6 says that the man was with Eve
00:04:57.880 | while the enemy was talking to her.
00:04:59.680 | Quote, "She took of its fruit and ate,
00:05:02.400 | "and she gave some to her husband
00:05:05.000 | "who was with her, and he ate."
00:05:08.040 | So Satan's first assault
00:05:10.960 | was on the order that God had appointed,
00:05:13.760 | and both Adam and Eve at that moment were duped.
00:05:18.680 | They let it happen.
00:05:19.880 | And when Paul says Adam was not deceived,
00:05:22.720 | but the woman was deceived,
00:05:25.400 | he's saying Satan undermined the order of creation
00:05:29.840 | and focused his deceptive words on Eve
00:05:33.560 | and made her the spokesman, not Adam,
00:05:36.560 | and she became the focus of the deception, not Adam.
00:05:40.080 | Adam failed in his leadership,
00:05:42.160 | and she was willing to take it up,
00:05:45.680 | and the result was the fall and all of its consequences.
00:05:50.680 | So from those two arguments in this text,
00:05:54.520 | Paul draws the conclusion in verse 12,
00:05:56.840 | "I do not permit a woman to teach
00:05:58.880 | "or to exercise authority over a man."
00:06:01.800 | In other words, there's an order
00:06:03.360 | of how men and women are to relate to each other.
00:06:06.240 | Rather, she is to remain quiet.
00:06:08.880 | And those two words, "teach" and "have authority,"
00:06:12.880 | are the very two differences
00:06:16.040 | between a deacon and an elder in the local church,
00:06:20.280 | as Paul describes them
00:06:21.920 | in the list of responsibilities in chapter three.
00:06:24.840 | Elders are to govern well,
00:06:26.840 | and they are to be apt to teach.
00:06:29.020 | The deacons aren't supposed to be either of those,
00:06:32.040 | and therefore I take verse 12 to mean,
00:06:34.740 | "I don't permit a woman to assume the role
00:06:36.900 | "of an elder in the church,
00:06:38.100 | "to act the role of an elder."
00:06:40.240 | Whether you call them elders doesn't matter.
00:06:42.420 | It's the acting of the role of the elder in the church,
00:06:45.080 | since they are the ones charged
00:06:47.680 | with the responsibility of authoritative teaching.
00:06:52.680 | And of course, not all teaching is inappropriate for women.
00:06:56.640 | Titus 2.3, she is to teach the younger women, for example.
00:07:01.640 | But the kind of teaching that belongs to the eldership,
00:07:05.840 | namely the teaching that carries authority over men,
00:07:10.000 | is what Paul thinks would compromise God's order.
00:07:14.160 | And that's the issue, not competency.
00:07:17.560 | Don't ever make the mistake of thinking,
00:07:19.320 | "Oh, a woman is not permitted
00:07:22.180 | "to do this kind of authoritative teaching
00:07:24.340 | "because she's incompetent."
00:07:25.600 | That's not the issue.
00:07:27.120 | The issue is that it would compromise
00:07:29.800 | the way men and women are supposed to relate to each other.
00:07:33.360 | So my answer to the question is, okay,
00:07:36.260 | all that to put in place.
00:07:38.080 | The question, here's the question,
00:07:39.800 | let me remind the listener.
00:07:41.320 | Does 1 Timothy 2.12 leave open the possibility
00:07:44.320 | that women are permitted to preach
00:07:46.460 | in the weekly gathering of the local church
00:07:48.400 | as an extension or under the governing authority
00:07:50.680 | of the male elders of the church?
00:07:51.920 | And my answer is no.
00:07:53.120 | Neither of those qualifications,
00:07:57.660 | that is, an extension of,
00:07:59.760 | or under the governing authority of,
00:08:02.120 | overrides the teaching of verse 12.
00:08:05.880 | Paul would say a female
00:08:08.600 | is not a proper extension of male leadership.
00:08:12.140 | That doesn't make sense.
00:08:13.920 | That's a contradiction of male leadership,
00:08:16.160 | not an extension of male leadership.
00:08:19.380 | And a woman teaching men with authority,
00:08:22.380 | week in, week out, or every other week,
00:08:25.960 | or regularly in an adult Sunday school class,
00:08:28.600 | or whatever, a woman teaching men with authority
00:08:32.560 | under the elders is not under the authority
00:08:38.160 | of the New Testament.
00:08:38.980 | She may be under the authority of the elders,
00:08:40.640 | but she's not under the authority of the New Testament,
00:08:42.520 | and neither would they be
00:08:44.340 | for putting her in that situation.
00:08:47.680 | So I would conclude no,
00:08:51.560 | that is inappropriate for churches to do that.
00:08:55.240 | God loves his church.
00:08:56.640 | He loves men and women.
00:08:57.900 | He loves to see all of us flourish
00:09:00.480 | in the use of our gifts.
00:09:02.220 | No man or woman should sit on the sidelines
00:09:04.940 | of Christian ministry.
00:09:06.840 | Let that be plain.
00:09:08.480 | No woman, no man sits on the sidelines
00:09:11.320 | in Christian ministry.
00:09:12.880 | The question is not whether all men and women
00:09:15.340 | should be active in ministry.
00:09:16.740 | They should.
00:09:17.860 | The only question is how.
00:09:19.560 | Amen.
00:09:21.300 | Women must be ministers.
00:09:22.880 | In fact, the world needs women ministers.
00:09:25.040 | That was the title of episode number 388
00:09:27.320 | in this podcast series.
00:09:29.040 | And as Pastor John mentioned earlier,
00:09:30.720 | you can download the book,
00:09:31.800 | 50 Crucial Questions About Manhood and Womanhood,
00:09:35.220 | right now at desiringgod.org.
00:09:38.160 | Click on the books tab at the top of the screen
00:09:40.220 | and look for the title,
00:09:41.680 | which begins with the number 50, five zero,
00:09:44.480 | and that I think makes it the first title on the page.
00:09:47.680 | Tomorrow I ask Pastor John a preaching question
00:09:50.240 | about whether or not his theology of Christian hedonism
00:09:53.400 | drives his exegesis of scripture.
00:09:56.440 | Until then, I'm your host, Tony Reinke.
00:09:58.080 | Thanks for listening to the Ask Pastor John podcast.
00:10:00.640 | (silence)
00:10:02.800 | (silence)
00:10:04.960 | (silence)
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