Loneliness
00:00:00.000 | Hello everybody, it's Sam from Financial Samurai.
00:00:03.600 | And with me today I have my wife, Sydney, and we're going to talk about the loneliness
00:00:07.960 | epidemic and some surprising solutions that I thought about that I didn't really realize
00:00:13.420 | until now.
00:00:14.420 | So, Sydney, how are you doing?
00:00:16.260 | And do you feel lonely or not?
00:00:18.840 | I'm doing great.
00:00:19.920 | I don't feel lonely lately, which is good.
00:00:23.720 | How about you?
00:00:26.320 | I don't feel lonely because I'm playing a lot of pickleball, I'm playing tennis, and
00:00:31.920 | we have our children to keep us busy 24/7 if we want.
00:00:36.560 | But they seem to be latching onto you more as the mama, especially since they're sick.
00:00:42.900 | And so it might be a little overwhelming.
00:00:45.360 | What are your thoughts?
00:00:46.920 | Yeah, I was kind of laughing when I read your article because for me sometimes it feels
00:00:53.120 | like the opposite.
00:00:54.680 | I feel like I have so much time devoted to other people that I don't have enough time
00:01:01.280 | to myself to just kind of decompress and self-care.
00:01:06.080 | I am not upset with that because it is what it is.
00:01:11.760 | Being a mom can be tough, but it's also rewarding to be able to help the kids and help you and
00:01:19.400 | just keep on going.
00:01:21.040 | Yes, indeed.
00:01:22.760 | So let me ask you this something.
00:01:24.960 | Back in 2012, do you remember when I first left the industry, the finance industry, how
00:01:31.000 | many times I said I was bored?
00:01:33.200 | Yeah, it was a lot to take because it was just so different from how you were when you
00:01:41.240 | were working.
00:01:42.240 | It was a big lifestyle adjustment for you.
00:01:45.160 | It was hard because I was still working at the time, so my schedule was limited when
00:01:49.540 | all of a sudden you had so much flexibility in your day-to-day and I still had to go to
00:01:55.560 | work and stick to my regular schedule.
00:01:57.280 | So yeah, it was a huge adjustment for you.
00:01:59.920 | I remember when I left, I would still wake up by 6 a.m. every morning and even though
00:02:07.280 | you had to go to work, what time were you waking up?
00:02:10.040 | I am not a natural morning person, so I would stretch it as late as I possibly could and
00:02:15.680 | still make it in the door on time.
00:02:17.720 | So what time was that?
00:02:19.080 | I don't even remember.
00:02:20.360 | I'm guessing I was probably waking up around 7, 7.30.
00:02:24.920 | No way!
00:02:25.920 | I think you were waking up more like 8 and getting to work at 9.30.
00:02:29.720 | 2012, I was still full-time.
00:02:31.880 | I didn't have the flexibility of consulting hours, so I'm pretty sure I had to be in by
00:02:38.080 | 8.
00:02:39.080 | Really?
00:02:40.080 | Maybe this is a revisionist history.
00:02:42.960 | I remember waking up and...
00:02:46.800 | You were always awake first.
00:02:48.120 | I don't deny that.
00:02:49.120 | Yeah, but I remember waking up first and then after an hour of writing or commenting or
00:02:55.560 | doing something...
00:02:56.560 | Yeah, so 6 to 7, that would be your hour if I'm waking up at 7.
00:03:01.600 | I remember working for an hour and then checking in and you'd still be sleeping.
00:03:06.080 | I'd be like, "La la la la la."
00:03:08.080 | I'd be twiddling my thumbs.
00:03:11.040 | I felt lonely.
00:03:12.040 | I was like, "I want you to wake up to spend time with me."
00:03:15.560 | I know.
00:03:16.560 | We've always had opposite schedules.
00:03:17.640 | So when you were going to bed at, I don't know, 10.30 to be able to wake up at 6, I
00:03:24.800 | was staying up until typically 12.30 to 1 a.m., sometimes 1.30.
00:03:30.720 | And so I've just always been a night owl.
00:03:33.960 | I've never been a natural morning person like you.
00:03:37.280 | So I guess the good thing about that is from an efficiency perspective, I could do a lot
00:03:42.440 | of work in the morning and then once I go to sleep, you can do a lot of work at night.
00:03:47.520 | And so if we're running a business or we're parents, we have more coverage and more productivity
00:03:52.800 | and health.
00:03:53.800 | Yeah.
00:03:54.800 | When our kids were babies in the very early months, we definitely utilized that in terms
00:04:00.040 | of getting through the night.
00:04:02.520 | We each had our night shift.
00:04:03.880 | If you remember those days when we didn't have an extra adult around to help us, we
00:04:10.280 | had to have our shifts.
00:04:11.600 | And so you'd take the first night shift and then I'd get us through the rest of the night.
00:04:16.320 | Right.
00:04:17.320 | So one of the bummers about the pandemic, besides not being able to see our loved ones
00:04:21.840 | as often, is the rise of loneliness.
00:04:25.340 | In my post in the show notes, you'll see this chart from the Washington Post and the American
00:04:29.440 | Time Use Survey by the BLS.
00:04:32.660 | And it shows since 2013, Americans 15 and older are spending nine hours more alone a
00:04:39.240 | week today.
00:04:41.560 | Americans also spending four to five hours less time a week with friends and companions.
00:04:46.720 | And then there's this other chart from the Financial Times.
00:04:49.960 | And it says that male and female Americans ages 15 to 33 are spending about 100 more
00:04:55.120 | minutes alone.
00:04:56.400 | That's 50% more alone time a day compared to in 2011.
00:05:01.520 | And loneliness really starts to tick up between the ages of 38 to 40 and doesn't stop until
00:05:08.520 | we die.
00:05:09.800 | And then finally, more women start spending time alone after age 60.
00:05:15.160 | And I understand the last bullet point because women have longer life expectancies than men.
00:05:21.040 | So if their partners die, they spend more time alone.
00:05:24.600 | What's also interesting though, is why?
00:05:27.120 | Why is there a huge uptick in loneliness starting around age 38 to 40?
00:05:31.680 | I'm 45, you're 42.
00:05:36.080 | And I don't think we're very lonely.
00:05:38.320 | I feel like we're often overwhelmed in parenthood.
00:05:42.300 | So the data does make me feel sad about the loneliness situation.
00:05:47.840 | Because people who are lonely are just, I mean, like life is not as fun or as interesting
00:05:53.260 | without someone to spend time with.
00:05:54.760 | Yeah, it's totally true.
00:05:55.760 | I know my mom and my dad are divorced.
00:05:58.720 | You know, they each live alone.
00:06:00.080 | And you know, there's times that my mom has told me, you know, you don't get it.
00:06:04.280 | You know, you don't know what it's like to live alone.
00:06:06.120 | And I feel for her.
00:06:08.240 | You know, there's thousands of people out there who live alone.
00:06:12.520 | And that's not easy.
00:06:14.080 | I would have a very hard time with that if I was by myself all the time.
00:06:19.860 | Maybe not thousands, maybe millions.
00:06:21.660 | Yeah, probably.
00:06:22.880 | But even as an introvert, I think you have a greater capacity to be alone and be okay
00:06:28.500 | with being alone than I do.
00:06:30.360 | Yes, I agree with that.
00:06:32.920 | However, I think there's a difference between being completely alone and having someone
00:06:40.680 | that you live with, but not socializing outside of your home.
00:06:44.160 | Right.
00:06:45.160 | Oh, I just realized something.
00:06:46.160 | So one of our issues is that since I left work in 2012, and you left in 2015, we're
00:06:51.520 | always at home, you more than me.
00:06:54.120 | So that's the funny thing.
00:06:55.120 | There's like this whole joke where like, I don't know, in Japan and Japanese culture,
00:07:00.360 | the wife will say don't come back until you go out for dinner and drinks and get the business
00:07:05.800 | done.
00:07:06.800 | And then in American culture, you know, guys will sometimes joke and say, wow, my wife
00:07:12.560 | wants me out of the house as much as possible.
00:07:14.680 | And she can't stand me being retired.
00:07:16.200 | And what are your thoughts on that?
00:07:18.480 | There definitely needs to be a healthy balance.
00:07:20.720 | And the pandemic made that really hard when we were all stuck inside.
00:07:24.360 | And we couldn't even go to parks at one point.
00:07:27.800 | It was it was crazy.
00:07:29.360 | So now that we have our freedom back, it's just about finding the right balance the right
00:07:34.520 | mix.
00:07:35.520 | How about finding a bigger home like a mega mansion?
00:07:39.200 | Well, I don't think that will help in terms of I don't know, when you have kids are going
00:07:47.160 | to find you no matter where you are, whether you're in, you know, 100 square feet or, you
00:07:52.080 | know, 10,000 square feet, they will, they will find.
00:07:56.120 | Okay.
00:07:57.120 | So let's talk about the solutions to loneliness.
00:07:59.680 | There's several solutions that I came up with.
00:08:02.520 | The one surprising solution is to have children later.
00:08:07.000 | You know, as an older parent, one of my greatest regrets was focusing too much on making money
00:08:12.120 | and my career.
00:08:13.120 | However, I've come to realize we older parents can actually spend way more time with our
00:08:17.480 | children than if we had children earlier, because we had children earlier, we'd be working
00:08:22.000 | all day.
00:08:23.120 | And they'd be in daycare.
00:08:24.520 | Right, right.
00:08:26.200 | And we couldn't homeschool our son for 18 months as we did during the pandemic.
00:08:30.040 | Well, not as well.
00:08:32.080 | And the second realization I have as a writer, and as an older dad is that since 2017, there's
00:08:37.840 | almost never been a moment of loneliness.
00:08:41.320 | I do feel lonely when our kids would rebuff me and my affection when I wanted to play
00:08:46.880 | with them.
00:08:47.880 | That was pretty hard.
00:08:49.400 | But I would say all of my free time can be sucked up by our children.
00:08:55.960 | If I wanted it to be.
00:08:56.960 | Yeah, I do feel that we have been fortunate that, you know, we've been able to stick together
00:09:03.560 | and have, you know, had the kids through the entire pandemic, our daughter was born right
00:09:07.800 | before it started.
00:09:10.080 | You know, to have our family unit together has been very, very helpful in terms of us
00:09:17.480 | not having to struggle with loneliness that much.
00:09:21.240 | Right.
00:09:22.240 | So one of the things that I was wondering was why is loneliness?
00:09:24.960 | Why does that curve really shoot up after age 40?
00:09:27.840 | And I realized why that is.
00:09:29.920 | So let's say you have your first child at 25.
00:09:32.960 | They will be potentially out of the house by the time you turn 43.
00:09:36.480 | But it's not like, you know, your kids through 18 are going to want to spend time with you.
00:09:41.680 | It's like something around age 12, 13, where they would rather spend time with their friends,
00:09:47.360 | right?
00:09:48.360 | So you take five years off of that, and bam, that is the reason why there's more loneliness
00:09:54.200 | because the kids are out of the house or wanting to spend more time with their friends once
00:09:59.080 | you're 38 to 40 years old.
00:10:01.800 | And so the solution, the solution to less loneliness after 40 is to simply have your
00:10:09.160 | first child later.
00:10:11.120 | So if you have your first child at age 35, so first, you're you're working hard, you're
00:10:16.040 | socializing, you're dating, you're meeting people and networking through your age 35,
00:10:22.200 | you're pretty, I would say less lonely.
00:10:25.520 | And then once you have a kid at 35, the earliest they'll be out of the house will be when you
00:10:30.440 | turn 53.
00:10:32.440 | And maybe the earliest you'll start feeling lonely because your kids don't want to spend
00:10:36.160 | time with you is age 48 to 50.
00:10:40.320 | That makes a lot of sense.
00:10:41.320 | What else are you thinking?
00:10:43.080 | Oh, well, I'm also thinking, but don't wait too long to have children because there are
00:10:47.320 | significant risks after about the age of 35.
00:10:51.160 | What else am I thinking?
00:10:52.160 | Hmm.
00:10:53.160 | Oh, yes.
00:10:54.160 | Solution to loneliness number two, retire later.
00:10:57.320 | So I have postulated that the ideal age to retire is not before 40.
00:11:02.800 | It's closer around 45, the age I am right now.
00:11:06.200 | And I first came up with this thesis five years ago at age 40, saying, look, I would
00:11:10.080 | kind of regret it leaving at 34, 35, because I left a lot of money on the table.
00:11:15.280 | I didn't make as many connections as I could have.
00:11:18.040 | Maybe I could have relocated to another office and had a lot more fun and be wealthier.
00:11:22.280 | Right.
00:11:23.280 | That's one of my regrets.
00:11:24.400 | But five years later, I still think 45 is like the optimal age, because it gives you
00:11:30.560 | 20 plus years to save and invest aggressively.
00:11:35.080 | It gives you a lot of experience and wisdom.
00:11:38.120 | And at 45, I think a lot of us want to take things down a notch and spend more time doing
00:11:43.480 | other things.
00:11:45.120 | So when I left work in 2012 at age 34, I felt lonely a lot because not many people could
00:11:52.540 | come out to play.
00:11:53.540 | And people were just working and doing bigger and better things.
00:11:56.920 | I had to fight FOMO.
00:11:57.920 | I had to really try to make an effort to get people to meet me for lunch.
00:12:02.880 | And what ended up happening was I just started hanging out with more traditional retirees
00:12:06.720 | like my friend Richard.
00:12:08.480 | He's 67 now, but we would start hanging out and he was like 57 and I was 34.
00:12:13.480 | So there's a huge age difference.
00:12:15.520 | And that's why if you retire at 45, there will be more people your age with similar
00:12:20.960 | interests that you can hang out with.
00:12:23.560 | So when you retired at 35, did you feel lonely?
00:12:29.040 | Did you feel it was difficult to, you know, make friends and hang out with people your
00:12:33.360 | similar age?
00:12:34.360 | I don't have any vivid memories of being lonely.
00:12:38.200 | I just remember being able to breathe again because prior to when I left, I was just going
00:12:44.760 | through so much stress.
00:12:47.240 | And so I used that time initially to just kind of take a breather.
00:12:52.560 | And then I got busy with freelancing and we also had the luxury to finally travel, you
00:12:58.800 | know, with the freedom of no strict schedules and we didn't have kids at the time.
00:13:04.840 | So we filled up our days with a lot of traveling and you and I spent a lot of time together
00:13:11.880 | just going out on hikes and things like that.
00:13:13.920 | So I don't remember being lonely because the days went really fast back then.
00:13:18.680 | That's fascinating.
00:13:19.680 | That's fascinating that you don't feel a moment of loneliness.
00:13:23.280 | Whereas when I first left, I did.
00:13:25.740 | And I guess when you left, it's because you had me.
00:13:28.480 | I had you but we also have personality differences, right?
00:13:31.600 | You're definitely more social than I am.
00:13:33.880 | So I didn't have a significant change in my lifestyle minus, you know, not having my day
00:13:44.000 | job.
00:13:45.000 | Right.
00:13:46.000 | That's right.
00:13:47.000 | It's very interesting.
00:13:48.000 | I'm just gonna chalk it up to me always being there for you in your time of need.
00:13:52.600 | You were.
00:13:53.600 | Thank you.
00:13:54.600 | Oh, you're welcome.
00:13:55.920 | So solution to loneliness number three, find an in-person hobby.
00:13:59.640 | This is not surprising at all, but it is absolutely one of the best ways to combat loneliness.
00:14:07.340 | For example, I've played league tennis my entire life since I was 12, 13 years.
00:14:13.200 | Great way to work on something like a skill, a tennis skill.
00:14:18.040 | And then you join a team, you battle it out, you trade messages in terms of strategy and
00:14:23.080 | what other people are doing.
00:14:24.540 | So to me, it was so much fun.
00:14:26.240 | And now we're doing pickleball.
00:14:30.320 | And I brought you in and it seems like you've been able to meet some fun people as well.
00:14:34.280 | I have.
00:14:35.480 | And I've had the most fun with a group of retired school teachers.
00:14:42.560 | They're just so happy and they're always having so much fun out there.
00:14:46.640 | So yeah, you do tend to connect with older people when you have more free time during
00:14:54.420 | the weekday as an early retiree.
00:14:57.180 | And I think it's been great.
00:14:59.020 | It's been great to expand my network.
00:15:01.220 | Yeah, the one thing that I recommend not focusing on is online relationships.
00:15:07.180 | You know, it's better than nothing.
00:15:08.580 | But I think an online friendship is equal to no more than 5% of an offline friendship.
00:15:14.500 | So you could have 20 online friendships, but that maybe is equal to one good offline real
00:15:21.260 | relationship.
00:15:22.460 | There's really no substitute for in person relationships.
00:15:25.060 | All right, fourth solution to loneliness.
00:15:27.820 | Frankly, I think you got to add more value.
00:15:30.940 | The more value you add to society, the more people may want to spend time with you.
00:15:35.820 | You'll be invited to more parties, gatherings, events.
00:15:38.820 | And then from there, you'll grow your network and potentially find more companions with
00:15:43.780 | shared interests.
00:15:45.220 | What do you think?
00:15:46.220 | I think I agree with all of that.
00:15:48.260 | I shared a story in the post about playing pickleball with a woman named Shannon.
00:15:52.980 | Just random mom has a 13 year old daughter.
00:15:56.860 | And she's great player.
00:15:58.220 | And it was the first time we met and she asked what I did.
00:16:01.020 | And I told her I'm an author.
00:16:02.660 | And she asked about the title of my book.
00:16:04.500 | And I mentioned by this not that.
00:16:06.940 | And then she immediately said, I know that book.
00:16:10.020 | Other parents at my daughter's school were mentioning it.
00:16:12.500 | And I said, really?
00:16:14.100 | Are you sure you know my book?
00:16:16.100 | It's not called something else?
00:16:17.300 | Are you getting confused?
00:16:18.300 | He said, Oh, yeah, yeah, I know that book.
00:16:20.700 | Because it talks about education, marriage and divorce.
00:16:23.180 | And I was like, wow, that's a small world.
00:16:27.220 | And I'm always surprised when someone in the real world says they've heard of financial
00:16:30.780 | samurai or my book, because it's just it's kind of I separate the two.
00:16:35.980 | And so what I realized from that incidence is that the more value you can add, the more
00:16:41.380 | people will want to spend time with you.
00:16:43.900 | Shannon invited me over to his parents gathering to see if we can do like a book talk.
00:16:49.020 | And you know, I was flattered.
00:16:51.300 | I said, Oh, let me think about I'll get back to you because it takes a lot of effort.
00:16:56.660 | But again, if our daughter wants to go to Shannon's daughter's school one day, and if
00:17:02.420 | I did this book talk, and I met the administrators and 20 parents, surely something positive
00:17:07.900 | could come out of that.
00:17:09.380 | And I want to conclude by talking about the final solution to loneliness.
00:17:12.500 | You know, there are other solutions, volunteering, going to church, going to meetups.
00:17:16.420 | But the final solution really is to make a bigger effort.
00:17:22.220 | We know the data on how much more lonely we are, we can be more intentional to counteract
00:17:27.260 | the loneliness as a result.
00:17:29.020 | For example, since the start of the pandemic, we are spending at least three more hours
00:17:33.140 | a week by ourselves.
00:17:35.740 | If we have a problem with this, then we can intentionally plan for three more hours with
00:17:40.220 | friends and companions a week.
00:17:42.780 | You can maybe go on a couple lunches, you can reach out to your friends for a hike,
00:17:48.460 | or you can go to a sporting event, or we can do date nights, we really need to do more
00:17:52.100 | date nights.
00:17:53.100 | Yeah, it definitely takes making an effort.
00:17:55.260 | I totally agree with that one.
00:17:56.820 | You know, we went to a holiday party recently, which was really fun.
00:18:01.540 | And then a friend of mine reached out to me a couple weeks ago to arrange a coffee.
00:18:06.180 | And if you don't make the effort, then the opportunities just don't arise.
00:18:09.620 | So I really agree with that one.
00:18:11.340 | Yeah.
00:18:12.340 | And if you start telling people, you know, you're too busy, people are going to eventually
00:18:16.340 | end up stop asking you.
00:18:17.780 | Right, or they'll just go ask someone else.
00:18:19.860 | So as excited as I was that my friend asked me out to coffee, now it's my turn to find
00:18:25.060 | a time to get that on the schedule with her.
00:18:28.020 | Get it on the schedule, reciprocate, take action.
00:18:30.500 | You know, recently, I was super impressed with a fellow parent who met me and my son
00:18:34.660 | at a San Francisco playground at 2.45pm.
00:18:38.140 | His son and my son, they used to go to preschool, really good friends.
00:18:42.380 | But he and his son were in the East Bay an hour away, and they've been out and about
00:18:46.580 | since 9am.
00:18:48.340 | And I didn't know that at all.
00:18:50.140 | He was just like, during the text message, he was like, "Oh, yeah, we'll try to make
00:18:53.300 | it.
00:18:54.300 | We'll keep you updated."
00:18:55.300 | But what turns out happening was that he got on the BART subway system, rode his bike to
00:18:59.540 | the playground, like 10 minutes from the subway system, and met up.
00:19:02.900 | This was after like being out for six hours.
00:19:05.220 | That's a long time with a four-year-old.
00:19:08.220 | Yeah, with a four, four and a half-year-old.
00:19:10.140 | I was like, "Damn, that is huge effort.
00:19:13.580 | Props to you.
00:19:14.580 | I'm going to make it up to you.
00:19:15.740 | We're going to do something fun together."
00:19:17.380 | We had some great conversations about being a dad and work-life balance.
00:19:20.980 | And the thing is, he made an effort also because his wife was on a business trip.
00:19:25.940 | So like anything, good things take a lot of effort.
00:19:30.500 | So I don't believe that if we're lonely, we're always going to be lonely or feel lonely.
00:19:36.540 | We need to make an effort.
00:19:38.620 | And one of the comments, actually, several commenters mentioned something very interesting,
00:19:43.820 | and I didn't really think about it.
00:19:45.940 | These commenters believe that there is a correlation with emotional intelligence and loneliness.
00:19:53.180 | And it sounds a little harsh, but the commenters were saying, "The lower your emotional intelligence,
00:19:58.500 | the higher your loneliness."
00:20:00.100 | What are your thoughts?
00:20:01.780 | I could understand that.
00:20:03.100 | I could see that.
00:20:05.220 | Because it does take effort to be thoughtful, to reach out, to gift, to invite, and to plan.
00:20:13.060 | Yeah, and friendships are built on trust as well.
00:20:16.380 | And if you suffer from a lack of emotional intelligence, you're probably going to have
00:20:22.140 | difficulties in building trust with someone and vice versa.
00:20:25.980 | So I think that's a valid point.
00:20:28.980 | Right.
00:20:29.980 | Well, in conclusion, I do believe the loneliness epidemic should worry us all, especially those
00:20:36.480 | of us who have kids.
00:20:39.540 | Loneliness can lead to anger, hate, attacks, depression.
00:20:46.740 | If you look at the mass shootings and the profiles of the people who conducted these
00:20:50.940 | atrocities, it seems like they were lonely.
00:20:54.420 | Like nobody paid enough attention to them.
00:20:57.900 | Nobody gave them enough love.
00:21:00.320 | And as a parent now, I feel really disheartened by that.
00:21:05.420 | And it makes me really want to spend more time with my children and to try to be more
00:21:10.700 | empathetic.
00:21:12.140 | So hopefully we can all be more patient and loving to one another.
00:21:15.360 | We never know what's going on behind closed doors.
00:21:18.420 | Life is difficult.
00:21:19.420 | The pandemic has made life difficult for so many and we need to have more kindness and
00:21:25.180 | empathy.
00:21:26.180 | I know firsthand experience, it can be very hard when people are attacking you.
00:21:31.060 | This is one of the downsides of running Financial Samurai and recording this podcast.
00:21:35.860 | No matter how much you don't want to offend anybody, someone seems to always be offended.
00:21:41.480 | And a lot of times there is a projection of the way the person feels because there's something
00:21:46.180 | going on.
00:21:47.780 | And in the past, I would be much more defensive, much more combative.
00:21:51.540 | But now as a father, I just try to think about what is going on and to either show kindness
00:21:58.160 | or just move on.
00:21:59.780 | If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love a positive five star review.
00:22:03.740 | You want to keep in touch, subscribe to our newsletter with over 55,000 subscribers at
00:22:08.540 | financialsamurai.com/news.
00:22:12.320 | And if you want to buy our book, Buy This, Not That, you can go to financialsamurai.com/news.
00:22:17.460 | Thanks so much, everyone.
00:22:21.020 | Thank you.
00:22:22.020 | And we'll talk to you all later.
00:22:23.020 | Thanks for watching.