Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan: The Greatest of All Time

00:00:00.000 | Humans are fascinated by violence and you've got to ask yourself. Why is it the rash guard? Yes

00:00:06.880 | And I talk so much shit that I'm like man if I lose this is gonna be rough

00:00:11.120 | You're learning this shut the fuck up. I got you man. You were powered by McDonald's and Coca-Cola

00:00:16.240 | I want more and then I smacked him and he didn't want to fight anymore

00:00:19.200 | If George St. Pierre and Khabib Nurmagomedov face each other in their prime who wins

00:00:30.960 | Am here with three individuals

00:00:33.240 | Each of whom are considered by many to be the greatest of all time in each of their respective disciplines

00:00:39.880 | The greatest MMA fighter of all time George St. Pierre the greatest martial arts coach of all time

00:00:46.740 | John Donahue and

00:00:49.200 | the greatest submission grappler of all time

00:00:51.960 | Gordon Ryan

00:00:54.680 | So let me ask the first question you guys didn't see the question no preparation here

00:00:59.040 | What is the key to your success each of you one thing or multiple things that come to mind?

00:01:03.840 | John go first

00:01:07.760 | Is it the rash guard

00:01:14.320 | Yes, I

00:01:17.040 | Like that you choose John right off the bat seem the most nervous

00:01:23.440 | Give the right answer for me. It's about

00:01:27.400 | Finding a way to work in

00:01:31.680 | a world where

00:01:33.880 | Most of the answers are already known

00:01:36.400 | Okay in any developed sport

00:01:39.240 | by the time you enter that sport most of the basic precepts through the

00:01:44.840 | the major techniques that the major mechanical understandings of the sport are long since worked out and so

00:01:52.840 | in a highly developed world

00:01:54.840 | The key to success is to be able to identify

00:02:00.120 | Some area of the industry that you're in which is currently undervalued

00:02:06.720 | To do what the other people are not doing

00:02:09.680 | deeper than that you're you're

00:02:12.480 | Everyone has a view of okay. These are the the main skills of the industry I work in

00:02:18.720 | at any given time

00:02:21.960 | some set of skills

00:02:23.960 | attributes

00:02:26.160 | Will always be somewhat undervalued they're underappreciated by the people in the game

00:02:30.920 | You see that at any in any given industry there are always trends which change

00:02:38.440 | The nature of the industry over time so

00:02:42.120 | fashion trends in the clothing industry, you'll see at any given time there's a

00:02:49.040 | General wave of fashion which pushes most of the people in the industry in a given direction at a given time

00:02:54.680 | What makes people stand out is the ability to look at the various possibilities out there and say here is something which is genuinely?

00:03:03.840 | useful, but which is currently being underused underutilized and I want to bring that back in and

00:03:11.360 | develop it and

00:03:14.000 | Because it's an inherently useful product

00:03:17.960 | It will be very very successful in its initial applications against people who aren't currently using it

00:03:23.520 | If you can do this in whatever industry you're in I believe you'll be highly successful

00:03:31.920 | so this implies both for actual specific like techniques and

00:03:36.120 | the also tactics as well in the case of

00:03:39.600 | Jiu-jitsu so for example in my sport leg locks have always been around okay?

00:03:46.480 | There's there's no shortage of people you can look back in history who are applying leg locks

00:03:50.440 | nonetheless as in across the industry

00:03:54.200 | Leg locks were undervalued and underappreciated. There was a general sense in which most of the leading figures of the sport

00:04:00.560 | for most of the history of the sport of jiu-jitsu tended to de-emphasize leg locks and

00:04:06.320 | When I looked at them I said there was immense potential, but it wasn't being realized and needed to be changed

00:04:16.600 | Since then that has more or less occurred now most people coming into the sport understand that leg locks are an important

00:04:23.440 | Aspect and they're no longer undervalued if anything it's gone too far the other way and now perhaps they're a little overvalued

00:04:28.840 | and the

00:04:31.480 | this kind of

00:04:33.200 | fashion trend exists in every industry and

00:04:36.160 | The job of anyone who wants to excel in a given industry is to be able to identify

00:04:41.760 | okay, what are the things that are currently out of fashion and undervalued and then

00:04:46.240 | Look at what is their actual objective value and then work?

00:04:51.520 | To to to bring them back to the forefront so John brought up fashion

00:04:56.720 | George is wearing a really sexy shirt so

00:05:00.120 | Assuming that's not the reason is there

00:05:03.120 | Is there something that comes to mind as the key to the success of your incredible career?

00:05:08.160 | Well, of course everybody knows the famous answer that every athletes are saying. Oh, it could be genetic

00:05:14.840 | I was maybe gifted that certain predisposition. I worked really hard

00:05:18.840 | but I think

00:05:21.680 | Something that people don't talk enough is when everybody sometime go, right? I

00:05:28.360 | Was never afraid to try to go left and I felt many time trying to do things that were not

00:05:37.920 | Known to be things that would bring me brought me success, but I tried it, you know

00:05:44.960 | I was very often. I was the first of trying new things and I felt many time but certain times

00:05:50.800 | it gave me a certain advantage and

00:05:54.480 | for example, I

00:05:57.360 | was sometime fighting guys that had much better wrestling background and than me on paper and

00:06:04.400 | nobody before that fought those guys never nobody had dare to try to

00:06:09.600 | Take them down because their wrestling pedigree were so good

00:06:14.280 | And I didn't have on paper that wrestling pedigree to take these guys down in a fight

00:06:19.200 | but when everybody

00:06:21.720 | Tried to go right I was going left I fought them in a different way and that was

00:06:28.560 | The blueprint to beat certain some of these guys, you know, I mean, you know what I mean?

00:06:33.680 | So yeah, so we'll actually talk about a few fights where that you did just that this is fascinating

00:06:37.720 | But let's say at the high level. So Gordon again sticking on fashion may I compliment your

00:06:44.520 | Incredible badass hat trying to fit in here

00:06:47.120 | We should say we're in Texas now, so he's

00:06:51.360 | Become a Texan overnight. So what is there something you can speak to that you would attribute to as the key to your success?

00:06:58.600 | yeah, so first of all, it has to be a rule where you don't ask us all the same questions because

00:07:03.560 | How am I supposed to compete with the answer John just gave

00:07:05.640 | There's nothing I can do that's gonna top that. Yeah, but uh, I think it's uh,

00:07:10.880 | There's many things but I think the number one thing is just is John

00:07:14.120 | When I came in I was a blue belt and I was beating brown and black belts in competition already

00:07:19.640 | But he really changed my way of thinking about the sport

00:07:23.880 | I would just come in and if something wasn't working

00:07:25.840 | I would just do it harder and faster and more aggressively and that just degenerated me into a degenerated into

00:07:32.800 | me spastically knee sliding into cross Hashi Gourami against Eddie Cummings for six months and then just getting heel hooked repeatedly and

00:07:39.160 | I'm like, this is not working and Eddie like when I met him was like a chubby

00:07:43.400 | Librarian looking guy and I'm like there's no Mike six to like a jacked like 170 and I'm like there's no way I'm losing

00:07:49.760 | To a guy who looks like this, but he just kept heel looking me

00:07:52.760 | So I would just go harder and harder and it wouldn't work and then John's like well

00:07:55.880 | If you learned leg locks, you might you might have some more success and then I was like, yeah, that probably makes sense

00:08:02.320 | And from then on I kind of just changed the way I thought about the sport instead of doing doing things harder

00:08:07.760 | I would actually try to get better at your jitsu. You remember like a turning point where

00:08:12.540 | you became as opposed to being mediocre not just in technique, but an approach to

00:08:19.320 | - great

00:08:21.920 | I think it was somewhere around brown belt level when I was training

00:08:26.240 | Consistently started training full-time with John when I was purple belt mid-level purple belt and towards the end of my brown belt

00:08:32.840 | Days, I was beating up like legitimate like a DCC champions in the gym

00:08:37.200 | So I think like brown to black belt was a big thing for me

00:08:42.600 | And then when I won my first EBI and I was I submitted Yuri who won a DCC and I beat roost them

00:08:47.840 | So I think that was like my turning point as a competitor

00:08:50.360 | But I think I started to to reach world level a little bit before that

00:08:54.800 | I think somewhere around brown belt mid-level to late level brown belt

00:08:57.160 | It was some of that mental like it was there a moment when you like after a training session

00:09:02.080 | You realized I can actually do this. I could be at the top of the world

00:09:08.020 | I'm your class the critical moment for me was when I think it was right

00:09:12.400 | Right when I got my black belt, maybe a few months before I got my black belt

00:09:15.960 | we had a former ADCC champion come into the gym and

00:09:20.720 | we did a hard round together and I think I submitted him like four or five times and

00:09:24.640 | No one knew who I was

00:09:26.400 | I never won anything up into that point and I was like, okay

00:09:29.100 | Like if this is like one of the best guys in the world and I could submit him multiple times around

00:09:33.580 | I think that this is like something that I actually could do professionally and make a make a career out of this

00:09:39.240 | Okay. So the actual performance was the like you don't need to believe before you could perform like a lot of

00:09:46.280 | Olympic gold medalists

00:09:48.960 | they

00:09:50.040 | They have to believe before they can perform because like they're getting their ass kicked for a long long long time

00:09:56.520 | Yeah, I think but the best way for me to believe in something is to have repeated success doing it against high-level guys

00:10:02.280 | Like I'm not gonna just believe I can do a double leg if I can't a double leg on anybody

00:10:05.600 | So for me the the belief came from the repeated success in the gym

00:10:10.280 | Yeah, but to get to the point where you're submitting somebody like Yuri Samoa is like one of the greatest grapplers ever

00:10:17.280 | It's like a long journey

00:10:19.080 | Yeah

00:10:19.580 | But I had the confidence I had the belief in myself because of the success that I had in the gym

00:10:24.240 | Prior to that got it

00:10:26.360 | Even and it's one step at a time first. It's the Brown Bells. Then it's the black belts and it's world-class. Okay

00:10:31.880 | George was there a turning point for you when you you thought like I can actually do this

00:10:37.240 | Yes, I I always dreamed to become champion

00:10:42.220 | But I think the turning point that there was there was two turning point

00:10:46.560 | And there were my two losses

00:10:48.560 | First my losses to Matt Hughes I went into that fight

00:10:54.640 | Just to not lose I was not fighting to win and it's after the fight when I watched the

00:11:03.600 | The replay of the fight I realized I was like I was doing pretty well

00:11:08.000 | But during the fight in my own mind, I was not seeing it that way

00:11:12.920 | I thought I was getting dominated by you was like a hundred percent when I watched the replay I

00:11:20.080 | Was like man, I can I can beat this guy. I was beating him until I made that stupid mistake

00:11:27.080 | so I was very frustrating but but

00:11:29.800 | That's what gave me the mentally the the championship level

00:11:37.280 | mentality and then I became a little bit overconfident because I start beating everybody after that and

00:11:43.800 | I

00:11:45.520 | Start to believe the hype of people when they look at me. They were like, oh, he's the new up incoming

00:11:51.160 | superstar and he's gonna be unstoppable and and then when I became champion, I I

00:11:57.120 | lost to to to Matt to Matt Sarah, so

00:12:01.560 | before I I believe

00:12:04.200 | my first failure was because I had a lack of confidence and

00:12:08.120 | And my second failure was I was because I was over confidence, so I think it's there's a perfect

00:12:17.160 | Center of confidence. I mean, I mean it's good to be confident because I like John taught me like confidence

00:12:23.840 | It's it's like money in your bank account if you you can have all the skills in the world, right?

00:12:28.400 | and and if you're if you don't have the confidence, it's like you it's like you can

00:12:33.880 | You can be a millionaire, but you don't have access to your bank account

00:12:36.840 | So it's that's a little bit the analogy that John told me so that's how I feel a confidence plays for an athlete

00:12:44.000 | But to be overconfident, I think it's always good to to be aware to be afraid of

00:12:48.880 | What can happen so to have a perfect balance of confidence and fear to me?

00:12:56.040 | That's what mentally gave me the edge to become I believe successful in my sport

00:13:02.080 | Playing off that John gave me a speech one time and he was like you have to be able to

00:13:07.200 | like flip a switch and turn it off where like a guy like Mayweather or someone who goes out who's super confident and

00:13:14.080 | He plays the character of someone who's like no one can beat me

00:13:17.660 | I'm the best that there ever was and and that's it

00:13:20.040 | But if you look at me actually trained very hard

00:13:22.320 | You can't you can't play the persona of no one can beat me and have it translate into your life

00:13:26.680 | And you think that you're so good that you don't have to do anything and no one could ever beat you

00:13:29.640 | You have to be able to play that public persona of no one could beat me

00:13:32.720 | But then you have to actually do the training to make that happen

00:13:35.720 | You can't just you can't believe your own hype and say say that you know

00:13:38.960 | I can just do whatever I want

00:13:40.080 | No one's ever gonna beat me if the able to switch between the persona and the actual athlete and that made a big difference for

00:13:45.560 | me it's tough because

00:13:47.560 | like you're you you dominate such a large fraction of the world in in grappling and

00:13:54.160 | The George to just the perfect dominance after those two

00:13:59.440 | It's hard for the confidence not to just

00:14:01.600 | Like how do you avoid the confidence not becoming a thing that weighs you down where you completely

00:14:07.720 | deludes your mind

00:14:11.160 | For me, it's just well number one the guys in the gym are so tough

00:14:15.120 | So the guys in the guys in the gym that I train with are always like nipping at my butt and always giving me new

00:14:20.400 | New problems to solve and for me, it's really just about trying to learn new stuff over time

00:14:25.720 | So that keeps it interesting for me and it's not really about

00:14:28.200 | You know, no one could beat me I don't have to train or have to do it

00:14:32.200 | I could do whatever I want

00:14:33.320 | It's more

00:14:34.360 | What keeps me in the gym is more about the fact that I'm learning new stuff all the time and working on something new and progressing

00:14:39.640 | to new levels at all times, it's not I don't just come in and do the same thing over and over again and

00:14:43.880 | That gets boring. You just come in and you don't learn anything new and you just do the same stuff for years at a time

00:14:49.400 | And okay, okay

00:14:50.400 | This is boring

00:14:50.840 | But when you have new stuff to work on and new goals short term and long-term goals to reach then it makes it interesting

00:14:56.040 | it's a

00:14:57.760 | For me, it's a little bit like Gordon says is the fair because sometime in the gym

00:15:02.640 | I even before I when I was competing I was I was getting my butt kicked

00:15:06.400 | But I don't care what happened in the gym

00:15:08.960 | I mean it hit my ego, of course because I'm a proud person

00:15:11.800 | I'm a competitor even in the gym, but it's not a malicious competition

00:15:15.880 | Competition in between each other when you fight you have to be malicious you go there to hurt the guy

00:15:20.620 | but it it hit it hit me in terms of my pride when I get

00:15:25.560 | beat in a gym, of course, but

00:15:28.520 | that fear

00:15:31.240 | That I don't want it to happen in public

00:15:34.560 | especially not during a fight that what keeps help me keeps the balance between confidence and and and

00:15:40.640 | Fear, you know what? I mean? It's kind of weird. It's a mix

00:15:44.040 | It's a mixture of both that I believe I to me

00:15:49.760 | Help me

00:15:51.300 | Succeed to have the right mindset to fight and I talk so much shit that I'm like man if I lose this

00:15:57.260 | This is gonna be rough. So yeah, you put a lot of I mean

00:16:01.480 | That's that's the hard thing to do when you talk shit when you when you play the heel is

00:16:05.920 | So much to perform the pressure is I mean you have to be good under pressure. It's the Conor McGregor thing

00:16:13.120 | You know, the reason I actually started talking shit was actually like indirectly because of George

00:16:19.080 | because because I will become the opposite of George I won I won my first EBI and I

00:16:25.080 | didn't talk shit and everyone was like being like, oh, you know, you only beat Yuri because because he was tired or

00:16:32.020 | You know this or that and if they have a rematch under any of the rules that he would have lost

00:16:36.880 | And I'm like trying to figure out what I'm gonna do

00:16:39.320 | So I'm scrolling through George's feed one day and he posted a clip of him beating someone and I look at the comments that I'm

00:16:45.960 | With this in mind. I'm like George is the nicest person of all time. And if you look at the comments

00:16:50.560 | it's like 10,000 comments and like

00:16:52.560 | 9,000 and 900 are just people calling him like all you do is lay and pray you pussy you suck

00:16:59.180 | You can't finish anybody and I'm just I'm looking at this and I'm like people are gonna say what they're gonna say regardless

00:17:05.300 | They're gonna talk shit regardless. So you may as well just say whatever you want and then just be yourself

00:17:09.320 | Is there some aspect that's I mentioned Conor McGregor?

00:17:13.600 | He uh, he crossed the line with Khabib

00:17:16.400 | At least in the eyes of Khabib. Is there something you ever

00:17:20.120 | Regret about crossing a line or does that you ever feel like there's a line or do you just keep pushing the line?

00:17:26.120 | Uh, I basically play it per per person

00:17:30.200 | I just I basically fire back with like one step above what what they do. It's always plus one. Yeah. Yeah, okay

00:17:36.920 | So I go I usually go hard like they fire a bullet then I drop a Duke

00:17:42.200 | And then and then after that initial shot and we go back and forth and I'll just keep one upping them

00:17:47.480 | So, you know, there's a lot of people that love you, but there's also a lot of people that love to hate you. Yeah

00:17:53.800 | so

00:17:55.720 | like what do those people like energize you or do you just

00:17:59.560 | Or is it funny to you? Like what as an athlete as a performer? You should not think about them

00:18:05.320 | It's like a fun thing

00:18:06.520 | It's like it's just like a fun thing that keeps me occupied

00:18:09.360 | Like because like because most of them that like talk shit. They like just say stuff that's factually incorrect

00:18:14.600 | So then I just argue with like actual statistics. Yeah, it's just like

00:18:18.560 | You suck or you're not gonna beat this person. I'm like I've already submitted that guy

00:18:23.080 | So I just it riles them up and it's just it's just a fun thing for me to do my my downtime

00:18:28.400 | Yeah, your responses are usually very factual very scientific. I appreciate

00:18:32.920 | Thank you. You actually you start by talking trash, but then you respond with science. Yeah, it's great

00:18:38.800 | Okay, it's good mix. That's a good mix. I

00:18:41.560 | Mean a topic of haters are more specifically sort of doubts within yourself or doubts around you as you're coming up

00:18:49.200 | Maybe George you can comment. I would just think ignoring John completely in this conversation. I

00:18:55.320 | Was gonna ask you another question, but let me just ask you on this on this topic

00:19:01.360 | Are there times in your life yet?

00:19:04.280 | You were surrounded by people that doubted you all the time

00:19:08.440 | And so what is there something you could say as in by way of advice how you overcome?

00:19:13.400 | The doubt either yourself or others around you all the time

00:19:17.920 | The first time I

00:19:21.280 | Manifest my desire to become a professional mix martial art athlete. Everybody doubt me

00:19:26.920 | Just not even I'm not talking about the UFC just to become a professional fighter

00:19:31.480 | Everybody doubt me and I became a I became a professional fighter. I had few amateur fight

00:19:37.040 | I won them all then I fought my first fight in

00:19:40.260 | Montreal I won and I became a professional

00:19:43.560 | Then I I told people that I wanted to fight in UFC. Everybody doubt me again. So it's a normal thing

00:19:51.440 | So I work my way up beat a few guys. Then I at the time Pete spread was

00:19:59.960 | just not knocked out Robbie Lawler with leg kick and

00:20:03.320 | The person was my agent at the time did a great move

00:20:07.520 | For me, so he brought Pete spread in Montreal to fight me Pete spread came to Montreal

00:20:12.760 | I and I believe

00:20:14.360 | He didn't know who I was

00:20:15.640 | So he thought that he was coming to collect an easy paycheck and I and I end up beating him

00:20:20.600 | So that gave me the opportunity to fight in UFC

00:20:23.800 | Then after I was in UFC, I wanted to become champion of the world, you know

00:20:27.920 | but Matthews was there and he seems invincible at the time, so

00:20:31.560 | Everybody doubt me again, and I became world champion. And after when you when I was well chairman, I wanted to be I

00:20:38.600 | Was competing against other world champion of other weight class

00:20:43.800 | For the title, you know for the legacy and everything so it's not no longer competing against my opponent

00:20:50.840 | I was you know as a competitor

00:20:52.840 | You always you never wanted to be you never want to be satisfied because when satisfaction is the death

00:20:58.680 | You know when you're satisfied you better retire because it's over so always I have to find motivation what you can have more

00:21:06.400 | I want more don't be satisfied in life. So I wanted to be

00:21:10.600 | Like the best, you know, I was I was competing, you know

00:21:14.720 | I like to become the best and and you know

00:21:17.360 | Of course that people doubt doubt you all the time every time you say something that it's outside of the norm of the normality

00:21:25.360 | I don't want to say there's nothing normal, but I'm talking about

00:21:28.880 | when you you manifest your desire to do something that

00:21:33.120 | takes

00:21:35.120 | Special attribute to to to succeed or that is something that is hard to to do

00:21:40.560 | It's for sure. You're gonna always have people that doubt you. It's so strange that people don't

00:21:45.320 | They don't lean into supporting like people that love you, too

00:21:48.360 | yeah, even people that love me used to doubt me and I believe I you need to use that as a

00:21:55.240 | Positive positive thing as a motivation to prove them wrong

00:22:00.280 | Yeah, so for me that that was the thing when someone doubt me nothing gave me more

00:22:05.560 | There's more energy because I want to prove him wrong

00:22:09.600 | I want to look at him in the face and say hey, you see I got you man. I did it

00:22:14.520 | so

00:22:15.960 | John do you ever use this in one way or the other by saying I don't think you can do this to motivate them to

00:22:21.320 | prove you wrong or

00:22:23.120 | more general question of

00:22:25.120 | You know the mental toughness required to achieve or confidence required to achieve greatness

00:22:31.760 | Like what's your role as a coach when you have these two athletes with regards to your first question?

00:22:37.440 | Would I ever say to someone you can't do this as a kind of reverse psychology?

00:22:43.560 | I know

00:22:45.560 | My job is to prepare people first and foremost with their skills and as Gordon pointed out earlier if you're

00:22:53.880 | In any way a rational human being and you're noticing that you're getting tremendous success

00:23:01.240 | with a given move in the gym against high-level opponents who

00:23:05.140 | Give a good read on what your actual opponent and a competition is is like

00:23:10.880 | you would have to be a moron to

00:23:13.100 | Not recognize that kind of success and say this is something I should be building into my game

00:23:19.040 | And you will carry the confidence that you earned in the gym into the arena

00:23:23.560 | So I never try to use reverse psychology. I build up

00:23:28.760 | Everything I do in terms of confidence is to give people physical skills

00:23:33.600 | I know people say all this physicality on the one hand is mentality on the other and confidence is

00:23:40.000 | squarely in the the mental aspect of the game, but all the underpinnings and

00:23:44.960 | beginnings of confidence of physical

00:23:48.000 | okay, a rational human being will see where they're having success and where they're having failure and confidence will

00:23:56.640 | Surround those areas where they're having success and will degenerate in cases where they're having

00:24:03.480 | Failure, so my job as a coach is to set them up for success in the gym with a given set of skills

00:24:10.280 | And I don't have to do anything

00:24:12.840 | psychologically after that I just

00:24:16.240 | If I can set you up to be highly successful

00:24:19.280 | With a given move or a set of tactics ten times in a row against quality opposition in the gym

00:24:25.040 | I don't have to do a damn thing when it comes to instilling confidence. I

00:24:29.680 | Will tell people hey, you're doing a really good job with that move. It's working well for you

00:24:33.320 | but

00:24:35.560 | When they not an agreement, I'm not trying to force anything on them

00:24:39.400 | They're recognized they or they already recognize that long before the words came out of my mouth

00:24:43.640 | But on the other hand intelligent rational people will recognize when they're failing with given moves and no amount of talk on my part

00:24:51.960 | Can ever change that?

00:24:53.960 | if I teach Gordon a

00:24:56.160 | given arm lock and

00:24:59.680 | 15 times in a row he tries it over a month and all 15 of failures

00:25:04.200 | There's nothing I can say verbally to come up to Gordon say hey, you're really good at that move

00:25:08.080 | He's gonna look at me say bullshit

00:25:09.560 | I'm terrible at it and that will create a crisis of confidence where Gordon no longer believes the words coming out of my mouth

00:25:15.400 | So I will never compromise that but isn't there a line you just said 15 there you have to believe

00:25:22.120 | that

00:25:24.840 | Doing this arm lock 15 times over a period of a month is worth it because eventually you might get it

00:25:30.040 | Thank you. Yeah, that's a separate issue that that's a separate issue that

00:25:33.960 | There are times where I've more or less pushed athletes to go in a certain direction for example

00:25:44.560 | When I first met Gary Tonin, he never had a guillotine

00:25:47.520 | Strangle and I I would say don't carry, you know

00:25:50.800 | You're a scrambler like one of the greatest weapons a scrambler can ever develop as a guillotine

00:25:55.280 | like it should be in your arsenal and

00:25:57.760 | He was like, I just go for the back and I said well, there's gonna be a day

00:26:02.520 | You can't take someone's back and it's always good to better strangle from front and back

00:26:07.440 | Okay, of course, we all prefer a strangles from the back that makes sense

00:26:10.840 | But there's gonna come a day where it's gonna be useful for you

00:26:14.200 | and so that was one of the few times where I put my foot down and said you're learning this shut the fuck up and

00:26:20.560 | He like literally wouldn't teach him any anything else until he got a guillotine

00:26:24.120 | Yeah, Gary like asked him a question. He's like, let's say you're guillotine

00:26:26.720 | And

00:26:29.720 | For the first three months as gifted as as Gary Tonin is and learning most moves most moves Gary gets it like

00:26:36.400 | in minutes there was something going on with Gary just couldn't get a guillotine on people and

00:26:42.440 | Finally after around three months, he started having some success until ultimately became one of his best weapons

00:26:50.480 | We had to go through like 15 different variations of guillotine until he found one which actually worked reliably for him and

00:26:57.920 | That was one of the few times where I put my foot down and said no

00:27:01.640 | Do you have to learn this the long search had to do more with the physical characteristics?

00:27:06.320 | I couldn't figure out the right look it made sense

00:27:08.480 | It made sense in the case of Gary Tony because there were more opportunities per minute of his grappling for guillotines

00:27:15.200 | That the investment in time was worth it for another athlete. I might have said well

00:27:19.360 | He hardly ever gets in the situation, but front head long so guillotine so it's not even worth

00:27:22.680 | investing the training time

00:27:24.960 | Let me ask you a question on the on the competition side mentioned haters

00:27:28.680 | And do you think about this aspect of the competition with athletes? It's a great question and the answer is no

00:27:36.320 | I'm

00:27:39.960 | You can see that you could you couldn't find two more polar opposites

00:27:45.680 | psychologically than George St. Pierre and

00:27:48.080 | this monstrosity on my left and

00:27:50.800 | I've I've never said to my athletes. Hey, I think this is the sort of demeanor you should carry yourself with

00:27:59.080 | I'm myself a very flawed

00:28:01.840 | Character, and I'm the last person on earth who should be delving out moral advice to other people

00:28:07.880 | the only thing is I

00:28:10.480 | You know, of course, I believe some things are off-limits

00:28:12.640 | But as long as it's done in the context of sport with no one's physically attacking people or do anything crazy

00:28:18.680 | Where it just goes completely over the top then I give almost zero

00:28:23.400 | Moral advice to my athletes. I'm a jujitsu coach not a preacher

00:28:27.520 | Next I if I can if I may

00:28:30.840 | We we are entertainers

00:28:33.600 | You know, we're athlete or professional athlete, but we make

00:28:38.520 | We make a living because of people or want to see us perform

00:28:43.960 | Same thing an actor same thing a singer and a lot of the time

00:28:48.440 | especially in the fight game

00:28:51.520 | An event is promoted it needs to be with emotion

00:28:57.840 | Love me hate me, but do not ignore me

00:29:01.600 | and

00:29:04.280 | you know it

00:29:05.720 | When it's authentic and in the it's done

00:29:09.520 | well, I think me my personally my my favorite fighters to watch are the one that are that that

00:29:14.560 | Have a sort of some sort of a bad persona. I really enjoyed watching those guys because

00:29:21.680 | They bring it an emotion element into a fight, which is great. You know, I

00:29:27.040 | Feel to me it's more interesting to watch when there is an emotion involved and I believe that's why

00:29:34.400 | Some fighters make more money than others, you know, you know what?

00:29:38.080 | I mean, that's the reason why we can make a living out of this

00:29:41.560 | Yeah, they're better entertainers, but you're right. The authenticity seems to be really important. There's actually something very interesting there

00:29:47.600 | It's time to break out some some secrets

00:29:50.520 | You know who like you think of George St. Pierre you think of like the highly technical polished

00:29:59.240 | Martial artists, do you know who his favorite fighters to watch were?

00:30:05.360 | You'd probably be thinking of probably someone who's really technically advanced

00:30:10.240 | Actually, it was Mark Coleman

00:30:13.360 | Kevin Randleman and Phil Barone. He used to love watching that was a hammer house. That was his favorite

00:30:20.680 | he would love those guys and

00:30:22.680 | whenever their flights were on George we watching the hammer house crew and

00:30:27.960 | It's funny what you said about how those guys bought an intensity to

00:30:33.360 | To MMA that was off the charts. Have you ever met those guys in?

00:30:37.120 | and in their prime, let me tell you it was it was something to behold and

00:30:42.200 | I had this crazy larger-than-life

00:30:45.160 | Personality that most of the things I did made no sense whatsoever

00:30:49.400 | But I mean technically but that was their appeal and and there were these guys and George loved to watch them more than anyone else

00:30:56.120 | You never knew what what could happen with these guys. I remember when Mark Coleman won the pride Grand Prix

00:31:01.440 | I was in my living room. I was jumping. I was so happy. I was like, yeah

00:31:04.800 | He beat Igor Varchevchin. I was like

00:31:08.440 | Like to me, it was amazing. You know what I mean?

00:31:11.600 | Because of the emotion that they brought into the fight. George is actually very

00:31:16.800 | Interested by something you said there normally when I

00:31:20.520 | Ask what is the appeal of a given fighter?

00:31:25.160 | And what makes people watch a fight you you talked about the idea that fighters entertainers and that's absolutely correct that they are

00:31:32.120 | it's this weird weird industry where you're you're

00:31:36.840 | Both an athlete and an entertainer and you need to be successful in both regards to become

00:31:42.800 | financially successful insofar as

00:31:46.240 | Your favorite athletes to watch at least were people who are almost like the polar opposite of who you are

00:31:54.960 | I've always said that most people if you look at

00:31:58.720 | Say a million people watch a pay-per-view event

00:32:02.720 | What percentage of those million people have a genuine?

00:32:07.640 | Technical understanding of what's happening as they watch a fight

00:32:12.200 | It's tiny

00:32:14.960 | It's absolutely tiny the vast majority of people who watch a professional fight have almost no

00:32:23.400 | Technical understanding of what's going on in front of them. So how do they relate to the fight?

00:32:28.960 | What's the only way they can?

00:32:31.480 | It's through emotion. And

00:32:33.800 | So when they get a sense that these two don't like each other

00:32:37.640 | Then they can relate to the fight

00:32:40.200 | But only a tiny percentage of people watching a given professional fight can relate to it on a technical level

00:32:46.320 | The overwhelming majority will always form an emotional attachment to the fight

00:32:51.560 | That's why when you see things shows that UFC primetime. They never focus on

00:32:56.160 | tactics and the techniques of the fight they focus on the emotional elements the

00:33:01.280 | Preparation the view of their own family members as athletes get ready

00:33:05.200 | It's always an emotional pull

00:33:07.240 | Because that's how 99% of the viewers relate to the fight if I haven't think about chess

00:33:12.880 | Okay, if I have minimal knowledge of two world champions

00:33:18.160 | Coming to fight each other in it or match up against each other in a game of chess

00:33:22.440 | I know so little about chess tactics, and I can't really form any kind of technical

00:33:28.320 | Appreciation of what's going on on the board?

00:33:31.200 | But if you tell me that these two chess players hate each other's guts and they've got a rivalry which goes back five years and

00:33:37.520 | They've said this and that about each other in public then suddenly I might is break up and I'm like, oh, okay

00:33:42.680 | This sounds interesting

00:33:45.240 | Because I just don't have the knowledge to appreciate what's going on on the board and a chess game to be able to

00:33:51.560 | to appreciate the

00:33:54.000 | technical nuances of what they're doing so any

00:33:56.880 | Interest that I have in the chess match is going to have to come from some kind of emotional level because I'm just not qualified

00:34:03.000 | To make technical assessments and that's exactly how it is in the case of both grappling and mixed martial arts

00:34:09.600 | That's why the ones who evoke the most attention are always the ones who can form some kind of emotional appeal

00:34:15.200 | Conor McGregor was the all-time master of this. I

00:34:17.840 | believe also

00:34:20.480 | Emotion can be used as a weapon

00:34:22.920 | For example, I've learned I've learned this from my favorite boxer is Sugar Ray Leonard

00:34:28.680 | Sugar Ray Leonard, I remember I was very young so I I watched his fight later when I was older

00:34:34.480 | But I know that sugar Ray Leonard

00:34:36.480 | Was the best boxer of his era?

00:34:39.320 | To me personally and I don't think nobody could beat him. I think it was skill skill wise. It was the best. However

00:34:46.920 | When he fought in Montreal Roberto Duran

00:34:50.280 | Roberto Duran

00:34:53.600 | Made it in a way that Leonard became very emotional he wanted to stand in front of Duran and

00:35:01.800 | fight a different fight that that he normally does because he wanted to show that he's a man and

00:35:08.840 | He lost that fight which was a mistake

00:35:11.400 | so by by

00:35:13.840 | Then later on he beat Roberto Duran in quite easy, you know, the the fair that you know, everybody remembered a no-mask thing

00:35:21.200 | but my point is

00:35:23.440 | Emotion can be used in a way that it can make your

00:35:28.760 | Derail your opponent out of his game plan and I felt a lot of my opponent trying to do that with me

00:35:35.800 | So that's why I never got involved. That was my way to defend myself against

00:35:39.960 | some kind of bullying to put like a like a shield in front some other guy like

00:35:45.700 | Gordon he expressed himself differently. Of course, there's a language barrier, but for him he's better at

00:35:53.600 | Giving giving giving back that says he's a better counter-attacker. You know, that's the way you respond to to to the aggression of

00:36:02.400 | Of an emotional attack. I think everybody is different in that regards. What's interesting that John said that he doesn't

00:36:09.120 | Study the tactics of this game or maybe you're not interested in the tactics of this game

00:36:16.880 | Because it seems like this is more than just being an entertainer. It seems like it could be an effective part of the match

00:36:22.040 | Yeah, I just feel like whatever investment you make in that is

00:36:27.920 | It's going to get negligible rewards first of all, it's probably any kind of pertain to one match in front of you rather than the

00:36:33.520 | totality of your career and

00:36:35.520 | Whatever gains you get out of psychological trickery and play

00:36:39.640 | Typically

00:36:43.800 | Don't last long you've raised an excellent example with sugar Ray Leonard he did fight outside of his usual

00:36:50.640 | manner in that regard but rather than me try to tell someone hey

00:36:56.960 | Behave like this before a fight

00:36:58.520 | I would have been probably more forceful between rounds with an athlete and saying you're fighting this fight the wrong way

00:37:04.720 | And that would have a much

00:37:06.720 | more

00:37:08.040 | beneficial impact on my athlete and

00:37:10.040 | Psychological trickery before a fight. I believe another example of

00:37:14.640 | Emotion that leads to failure is a

00:37:18.120 | Jose Aldo against Conor McGregor. I think it was it was on purpose that

00:37:26.000 | McGregor did this try to bait how though to become overaggressive to open in himself because he's an excellent counter puncher puncher

00:37:33.360 | That's what I believe in made a mistake

00:37:36.440 | There's another great one my match against cyborg

00:37:40.340 | 2018 no gi worlds where he didn't even try to win

00:37:44.320 | he just like wanted to smack me in the face the whole time because he was so angry that I was talking shit to him before

00:37:49.000 | the match and

00:37:50.320 | It was like the finals of the absolute it was like the biggest

00:37:53.480 | Match of the weekend and he just didn't even try to pass my guard to do anything

00:37:57.080 | He just wanted to hit me in the face and I was like sick. I just won

00:38:00.200 | It was incredibly fresh. Yeah, that's seen to watch like a grown man sort of lose composure

00:38:06.840 | Gordon one thing I've always been very impressed with you and that's

00:38:13.560 | No matter how heated talk gets

00:38:18.640 | Before a match with you when you go out to grapple you're absolutely cold

00:38:23.600 | Like I've you've never gone into a match

00:38:27.080 | carrying anything other than just

00:38:29.840 | cold-blooded

00:38:31.400 | Calculation and you've always been able to separate very well

00:38:34.960 | the idea of words and deeds and I think that's always been one of your

00:38:40.160 | One of your strongest assets a way I often measure this is when a match is over

00:38:46.240 | I will ask the athlete questions about the match and

00:38:50.040 | If they can't answer the question, what were you doing in the fourth minute? Okay, what was that setup?

00:38:55.960 | He used in in the third minute that got you into the Kimura lock if they can't answer that that tells me

00:39:02.160 | They were just fighting on instincts and emotion, but with Gordon it's like a logbook

00:39:07.440 | It's like okay in the seventh minute you went for that

00:39:11.360 | Judy get on me set up from from on the left side

00:39:15.800 | What were you thinking? He can always give an answer. He's absolutely stone-cold

00:39:19.920 | Speaking of emotion

00:39:24.480 | Gordon you will potentially if you're healthy face Andre Galvao and the ADCC coming up super fight

00:39:33.080 | Who is Andre Galvao for people who don't know? Can you tell the story of your beef with?

00:39:38.720 | the the emotional interaction with a man, yeah, so uh

00:39:44.320 | Andre is a

00:39:45.880 | He's considered the greatest

00:39:47.880 | ADCC competitor of all time

00:39:50.000 | multiple time black belt world champion

00:39:52.000 | winningest ADCC champion every has six six gold medals and

00:39:56.400 | I've been trying to compete against him

00:39:59.600 | Pretty much forever like since I got my black belt in 2016. I've been trying to get matches with them

00:40:05.080 | he was in the first DBI that I did and he ended up pulling out and that I've been trying to get matches with him and

00:40:12.120 | He would always say no and give one reason or another and then

00:40:16.320 | After the last ADCC, I was like hey Andre said he was retiring after this after this

00:40:23.360 | This competition so if he wants to retire, you know, he's he's the greatest ADCC competitor of all time

00:40:29.720 | And I think it's great. But if he wants to compete and that's great. I was like super nice and then he started like

00:40:34.780 | posting like passive-aggressive Instagram

00:40:39.840 | Captions and

00:40:41.240 | Then we started going back and forth in the internet and there was like one point where I saw him in person when he

00:40:47.340 | Acknowledged he's like I understand like what you're doing

00:40:50.000 | Like we're gonna pump this fight up and he was like totally on board

00:40:52.160 | but then there must have been something that happened where like it changed from like him like going along with it to being like

00:40:57.680 | actually pissed and

00:40:58.960 | Then there was that one night of flow where I went to go shake his hand and he he flipped me off and then he followed

00:41:03.920 | Me backstage and started to try to fight me and then I smacked him and

00:41:08.320 | Then he didn't want to fight anymore. And then we've been going back. He's actually blocked me on Instagram now

00:41:13.540 | So he just won't engage no one from Atos will engage now

00:41:17.040 | But it's gonna be interesting how he how he shows up if he can keep it under control or not

00:41:21.320 | Do you think how do you explain that level of emotion? Is this fear of losing your throne?

00:41:26.900 | Is it or is it just a human being like with a cyborg just?

00:41:30.540 | Just becoming emotionally unstable. It might just be me. I just have a way to get get under people's skin

00:41:37.080 | It's just I don't know. He's he's he was he was cool for a while and then I just I don't know it just

00:41:42.400 | Then everyone gets like this. They're all so emotional by the time they actually step up to compete that it's pretty easy to read them

00:41:48.960 | They're either so emotional that they want to actually come forward and and beat me like like Tim Spriggs is a perfect example at ABCC

00:41:55.440 | I posted like

00:41:57.440 | On my story on Instagram like 10 minutes before a match

00:42:00.400 | I said like what I'm gonna do to Tim Spriggs is gonna be criminal and he's like a very stalling guy and he came

00:42:06.840 | He saw that and then he came out and actually tried to fight me like he came and actually engaged my guard and I ended

00:42:11.640 | Up submitting him

00:42:12.200 | So it either has that effect or it has the effect where?

00:42:14.800 | They know I've talked so much shit leading up to the match

00:42:17.560 | That they're so afraid to lose that they just get super stalled and they move away

00:42:22.160 | So either has one effect with I come forward and they want to they want to beat me beat me or they want to just

00:42:27.000 | They're so afraid of getting submitted that they know if they engage they're super cagey and they just back away and don't really do anything

00:42:32.480 | Do you think this match happens?

00:42:35.480 | There's a lot of variables and what I have to see how my stomach is and to

00:42:38.680 | If I'm actually gonna show up and compete my stomach's healthy. I doubt that Andre will actually show up to compete

00:42:44.720 | I've been trying to compete against him for six years and he hasn't done it

00:42:48.160 | So there's no reason to think he would now is it possible for you to speak to where like your estimates are about your stomach?

00:42:54.360 | Or is it not too unclear for now?

00:42:56.240 | Still too early to tell I have this round of treatment that I'm doing until late February

00:43:00.800 | And I'm pretty sure that I need to do the same test

00:43:03.440 | They did initially to retest all my levels and then go from there

00:43:07.040 | So I've been feeling a little bit better like it's not nearly as bad as it used to be

00:43:11.460 | I was explaining to someone the other day like

00:43:13.880 | For the last four years

00:43:15.200 | I would be so nauseous that every time I would walk into a new room

00:43:18.680 | I'd have to actively locate a garbage can in case I have to throw up

00:43:22.640 | So I'm like one step above that right now. I'm like doing a little bit better than that

00:43:25.960 | So it's definitely getting a little bit better, but it's not it's not where it needs to be

00:43:30.440 | Can we talk about diet for just a sec because both of you George and and Gordon?

00:43:36.240 | Like suffered from stomach issues different kind and have arrived for now for different places

00:43:44.040 | So can you maybe George speak to?

00:43:46.520 | The general question of what is the best diet for performance for training?

00:43:51.920 | Like what have you learned through your career about this? Well, I think everybody is different

00:43:56.320 | to me personally

00:43:59.880 | I implement fasting

00:44:02.000 | Time restricted eating and

00:44:05.560 | Prolonged fasting. What's the longest you've done so far? The longest I've done is five days. You don't I do it quite often

00:44:12.160 | I do I do four time a year I do

00:44:14.480 | three to five days

00:44:17.280 | water fast

00:44:19.280 | And I liked it. It helps me with inflammation. I think it boosts the immune system and

00:44:26.040 | That's about the I read papers about about this and I it helps me also feel

00:44:32.520 | Feel good. It's kind of a terrap very therapeutic to physical and mental just mental

00:44:38.720 | Mental and physical because when I eat my when I break my fast and I sit at the table with with other people

00:44:46.000 | It doesn't matter what I eat if we all eat the same thing

00:44:50.200 | I always tell them I said my food right now tastes better than all of yours, you know

00:44:55.600 | because I you know, I I have this

00:44:58.720 | thing that I think I believe sometimes you need to put yourself into suffering to realize how

00:45:06.000 | pleasurable something is and I

00:45:10.400 | Tent

00:45:13.400 | Personally like diet wise I eat whatever I want

00:45:16.360 | Whenever I want I don't I no longer have any problem with this

00:45:21.440 | but if I would have a competition coming up like

00:45:24.520 | Knowing that I what I know now about my body I would

00:45:28.440 | orient myself

00:45:31.040 | more towards an animal based diet

00:45:33.520 | That's because I've tried different things and that's the kind of diet that I believe helped me

00:45:39.520 | Having less inflammation and feel better in terms of performance for for for doing something physical

00:45:46.800 | So high protein high fat low carbs

00:45:48.800 | well

00:45:50.920 | This is is different between animal based diet and keto. I mean there is carbs. There is a lot of fruit

00:45:57.480 | I got a lot of the carbs from the fruit a lot of organs organs

00:46:03.120 | I know a little bit about paleontology and the passive

00:46:09.600 | About you a prehistoric human and and I I know that

00:46:15.360 | And not only about that I know because I've traveled certain place in the world

00:46:19.840 | I want to visit the Maasai in Africa the hunter-gatherer tribe and I know that when they kill an animal

00:46:25.960 | They go for the organs first and I know I pretty most predatory animal they do the same thing

00:46:31.520 | So organs I believe is something that normally in our culture in the western part of the world

00:46:37.440 | We don't really eat but it's something that is very nutritious

00:46:40.120 | Have you been able to convince Gordon to try fasting?

00:46:44.680 | Haha

00:46:46.040 | Talk about diets

00:46:48.040 | It's a different situation. I think for Gordon because he's an heavyweight. He doesn't want to lose weight

00:46:53.280 | You know when a heavyweight the range of like my range was like I was a welterweight and middleweight, but heavyweight

00:47:00.240 | It's like some of the guys that you can compete can compete against their main there might be 300 pounds. So if you lose weight

00:47:06.720 | It's a it's a big problem. You know what I mean?

00:47:09.560 | So and there is things that will work for me that might not works for Gordon, you know

00:47:14.400 | So we have to make his own experience and I told Gordon sometime when everybody goes left

00:47:18.680 | You try to go right see how you feel with certain things experiment not not a topic

00:47:24.340 | That's part of your optimization

00:47:27.280 | Optimal performance formula. Well what I used to do before my stomach issues and for those of you listening who don't know

00:47:34.020 | I had recurring staph infections in

00:47:36.480 | 2018 and I took a bunch of oral antibiotics and it just completely wiped out my stomach

00:47:41.460 | So I just was diagnosed. It was misdiagnosed as gastroparesis

00:47:45.840 | So for those of you messaging me on Instagram who are just watching Rogan asking me about my gastroparesis. That's not what I have

00:47:51.700 | They misdiagnosed it and I did some other tests and for four years. I didn't even know what it was

00:47:57.320 | and then I got this I went to this doctor in California who

00:48:02.080 | Diagnosed me with I've H pylori and then a fungal and a bacterial overgrowth of my small intestines. So the issues in the small intestines

00:48:09.520 | so what I used to do was I used to do like

00:48:12.100 | seasons where I'd have a

00:48:14.040 | very clean season where I was competing and I would

00:48:16.460 | Have a lower body weight and I would do like an off season kind of like a bodybuilder where I would eat a lot more

00:48:22.160 | Food and a little bit dirtier food and I would have cheeseburgers and pizza at nighttime to have the extra calories

00:48:27.520 | But now I can't eat those foods because they upset my stomach

00:48:30.680 | So now I pretty much just try to eat whatever I can and maintain the weight the best I can

00:48:34.480 | Based around how my stomach feels so right now it's like rice chicken eggs

00:48:39.760 | fish

00:48:41.760 | vegetables fruits and

00:48:43.640 | Pretty much nothing else like anything hard to digest

00:48:45.760 | Anything spicy red meat fast food all that's all that's hard for me

00:48:52.280 | Which sucks because in Texas things barbecue

00:48:57.480 | And I mean this diet is really important for you John I can tell

00:49:00.920 | Like is that something you think about for athletes at all again?

00:49:06.160 | That's part of the I've to be honest with you. I've never seen any

00:49:11.120 | measurable

00:49:13.160 | Improvement in sports performance in jiu-jitsu by change of diet. I do believe that diet is important for longevity in

00:49:20.920 | Human beings and I do think it makes a difference especially once you get past the age of 40

00:49:26.600 | with regards longevity

00:49:28.600 | For older athletes. I do believe it makes it some difference, but my observation is in athletes and

00:49:34.520 | In their youth and working up into their prime. I've seen athletes have the worst

00:49:40.440 | diets

00:49:43.160 | God bless Travis Stevens, but that guy won an Olympic silver medal basically on McDonald's and candy. Yeah

00:49:48.880 | George st. Pierre for 80% of your career you were powered by McDonald's and coca-cola

00:49:55.680 | Tochino Freddo that was my yeah, my meal of choice before a championship fight

00:50:00.600 | Gordon for him his youth was just five guys hamburgers Gary Tonin same thing

00:50:05.940 | I've worked with Japanese judo players who smoked a pack of cigarettes a day and won Olympic gold medals

00:50:11.960 | I've worked with Russian wrestlers who just ate

00:50:16.240 | Whatever was put in front of them and their athletic performance was outstanding

00:50:24.120 | I've worked with other guys who did have what would be considered a very clean diet and

00:50:28.280 | Their performance was no better than anyone else on the mat. So I've never

00:50:32.640 | I've never seen someone say okay. I changed my diet and because of that there was a measurable

00:50:39.480 | Improvement, you know in sports performance another way to phrase it though is I have noticed with a lot of lead athletes what they eat

00:50:48.000 | They begin to believe that that either is not a hindrance or it's actually good

00:50:53.040 | I Travis Steve is an example of somebody who eats shitty

00:50:56.840 | because he believes it's like it's like a power because

00:51:00.860 | Whatever, he's traveling across the world. He can't rely on healthy good food to be there

00:51:05.840 | So I'm going to eat shitty

00:51:07.440 | So that that's the like my body knows how to perform under whatever skittles or whatever. It's got McDonald's everywhere's got McDonald's

00:51:14.840 | So that makes like and they've convinced themselves and you talk about Russian athletes. A lot of them have very

00:51:20.840 | strong beliefs about like this

00:51:23.800 | Particular food being good for them. There's no agreement among them. Exactly. No agreement. Yeah. Yeah, so believe is more important than the actual time

00:51:32.480 | Yeah

00:51:34.000 | if I can after

00:51:36.000 | You know after a night out when you're hanging over I

00:51:41.560 | Think the best thing and I'm saying this and also sincerity

00:51:45.560 | I think the best thing to eat to me was like like a cheeseburgers with

00:51:50.940 | We call that a puts in back home because it's very fat. It's greasy

00:51:55.920 | So it up so the next day when you wake up, I think you feel better because it absorbed the alcohol

00:52:02.000 | My mom told me the same story once and then I try I was like I was hungover for some party and

00:52:11.200 | I woke up. I was like probably I don't know 19 or 20. I woke up and

00:52:14.760 | My mom's like yeah, just have it have a cheeseburger go go eat go eat something greasy and I did and I was like

00:52:20.720 | I feel kind of better now. I do not know the science the exact science behind it

00:52:25.320 | but I always notice and I don't know if it's placebo, but I always notice that if I

00:52:31.080 | If I'm if I party hard and I've been drinking a lot

00:52:35.840 | If I don't eat before I go into bed if I don't eat shitty food

00:52:39.560 | Then I guess I will wake up and feel worse than if I eat shitty food. I feel better. I know it sounds crazy

00:52:45.320 | I don't know why but it works for me

00:52:47.880 | Yeah, but it's also hard to do science on extreme performers so the discussions we're having is amongst the very

00:52:55.000 | You know that this might not apply to a general like recreational athlete, but for the elite

00:53:01.000 | I've just seen champions in every kind of combat sport and I've never seen a correlation between

00:53:06.440 | Dietary habit and performance and people under the age of 30. I do believe that diet is important for longevity. However, and

00:53:13.280 | For that alone that may well be worth investing time in it

00:53:17.800 | But with regards sports performance at least in judo - I've never seen any significant difference. Well, we had a little bit of a

00:53:24.440 | Difference of opinion on this I think

00:53:27.400 | What about strength training and muscle building or at least we had a discussion about this. So what do you believe is the value of?

00:53:33.120 | Of you know training outside of the sport so fitness

00:53:39.440 | Lifting heavy lifting explosive all kinds of lifting

00:53:43.720 | Do you leave personally for me? I believe and I've learned that from from John

00:53:48.960 | I used to do like

00:53:52.840 | To train like a bodybuilder before because I thought in my early days of competition

00:53:58.600 | That was the most efficient way to do things - because it was like I was watching Jean-Claude Van Damme

00:54:04.800 | Arnold Schwarzenegger we thought back back in the day. That was the thing

00:54:09.680 | That that's how we should do it, you know for to get ready for a fight, but I realized later on

00:54:17.320 | That it's all about efficiency and

00:54:22.560 | Some guys they don't lift at all and they're doing pretty well. So I

00:54:26.960 | Do cross training mostly for longevity?

00:54:30.640 | Well, it's mostly for a therapeutic

00:54:33.240 | Like a therapy it's more therapeutic than for performance

00:54:38.000 | It's to keep my body healthy to do a certain movement that are different than what I do every day in the gym in combat

00:54:44.220 | sport to keep me

00:54:46.220 | Healthy and

00:54:49.760 | Athletic so all the interesting movement stuff that you've done outside the sport that was for

00:54:54.200 | Therapeutic mostly therapeutic. I think it does it could trend trend transcend to performance, but it's mostly therapeutic

00:55:02.120 | I do not believe that squatting

00:55:04.120 | Five plates or or bench bench pressing three plate will make me a better fighter

00:55:10.840 | I do not I believe actually it could hurt me more. It could damage me more than then benefit me

00:55:17.020 | so

00:55:18.960 | Gordon is somebody who on Instagram post a lot of pictures of you being shredded and huge

00:55:25.040 | What's the value of strength? So I do like a combination of?

00:55:29.840 | John got us big into like gymnastics type movements like toes to bar and muscle ups and things like that when we were young

00:55:37.560 | Like toes to bar because that's like the exact motion you have to do when you're retaining guarders needs to chest

00:55:43.580 | So I do a lot of that stuff

00:55:46.080 | in combination with I do a lot of

00:55:48.960 | Opposite of George I do a lot of bodybuilding workouts

00:55:51.120 | Where I do like a basic split like a chest and triceps back and biceps day and my idea is that?

00:55:58.680 | Weight lifting should always be a supplement to jujitsu so you shouldn't be missing a jujitsu session to lift weights

00:56:08.200 | So I don't do I do probably I train jiu-jitsu every day, and I lift three to four times a week

00:56:14.280 | I feel like lifting seven days a week for me is too much and the lifting takes a lot of energy when you do like

00:56:19.820 | Hard lifts like that

00:56:21.320 | but my idea is if you want to get good at jiu-jitsu do jiu-jitsu and if you want to be bigger and stronger lift weights and

00:56:27.320 | and eat food and I

00:56:30.440 | Generally don't go super heavy when I lift you start putting crazy weights then start tearing muscles and stuff

00:56:36.880 | I'm so I usually do moderate weights with a very high rep rep range like four sets of 20 with a drop set at

00:56:42.580 | The end to fatigue the muscles break the fibers and grow

00:56:45.920 | Okay, so

00:56:47.800 | Four sets at 20 that's interesting so that's more for endurance and raw strength yeah, and also I think

00:56:53.960 | close to the competition I'll pick the intensity up and

00:56:57.040 | While there's no real way to get significant gains in vo2 max

00:57:02.120 | I think that lifting and just getting used to mentally redlining

00:57:07.560 | Gets me kind of in competition shape because a lot of times in jiu-jitsu the guys I'm training with

00:57:12.460 | They're not on a technical level where they can

00:57:15.780 | Physically exhaust me to the point where I feel like I'm gonna die

00:57:18.700 | But I get most of that like what I'm wrestling because I'm not as efficient in wrestling so I get a lot more tired

00:57:23.980 | And lifting when you do like if you do like four sets of 20 leg press to squat and you go back and forth

00:57:30.220 | Like you're like about to die at the end

00:57:32.060 | And I think I feel like gets me in the mental habit of redlining before competition

00:57:37.160 | But does muscle help you it's like the actual mass of muscle like this

00:57:42.040 | So I'm being stronger will always help and a combat will always help yeah

00:57:45.640 | To some degree it's not gonna be to a degree where?

00:57:49.300 | It overrides efficiency, but I think that they can't help being strong or can't hurt being stronger

00:57:55.360 | there's a bunch of people who believe depending on the sport that

00:57:59.200 | The strength can quickly become

00:58:03.840 | That have detrimental effects to efficiency

00:58:06.680 | Yeah, like I agree that certain kind

00:58:09.220 | I mean if strength is pure is like very cleanly purely applied to the exact movements of the sport so in judo the

00:58:17.160 | Explosiveness you need is very difficult to replicate in any kind of way except by doing judo. Yeah, I mean for us

00:58:24.520 | They always have to understand

00:58:26.600 | There's only so much

00:58:27.720 | Technique that can overcome a certain amount of strength like if we all try to fight a silverback gorilla

00:58:32.560 | It's gonna kill us

00:58:34.440 | But that that being said I do think that like for example heavyweights are usually the least technical because they rely on their size

00:58:43.040 | and strength to beat smaller people

00:58:45.040 | But I think that if you stay with us with the discipline of doing everything very precise

00:58:50.400 | And I train with a lot smaller people most of the time so I get out of the habit of using

00:58:54.880 | Using my strength. I think if you're very precise of the way that you train

00:58:59.160 | I think that the extra size and strength can help you quick question. How would you fight a silverback gorilla? I?

00:59:05.560 | Mean is there which animal do you think you can actually defeat that would be impressive that most people would say you can't

00:59:13.400 | You know I actually I don't have an answer to this

00:59:17.960 | I thought you were gonna say I want I want I want to say that me and John had like a four-hour

00:59:22.520 | Discussion on this one time. I'm like what would win bear or gorilla?

00:59:26.740 | And he went into like this whole dissertation about how like Jaguar spin underneath and like barren bolo

00:59:31.440 | Silverbacks and kill them and like rip their rip their artery in their legs out. It was amazing

00:59:35.760 | I guess okay, so before we talk about strength John. Let me ask you what?

00:59:39.040 | Do you think people would be surprised by if two animals faced?

00:59:43.520 | One of them would win and people wouldn't predict that so they would be surprised by the effectiveness of certain animal at fighting

00:59:50.840 | In the whether it's in the forest in the jungle, so let's move it slow down

00:59:55.760 | Yeah, okay, so there's two animals of different species fighting and it and most people would pick

01:00:01.980 | So for example the lion gets a lot of credit for some reason. I'm not exactly sure why the king of the jungle

01:00:08.640 | Well, I you know a lot of people told me that the lion

01:00:12.520 | For example the tiger can be lion. Yeah, this is one of those age-old debates

01:00:18.180 | Yeah, well in grappling in fighting

01:00:21.860 | It feels like some animals use teeth and some use other parts of their body

01:00:28.200 | also like bear actually, I don't even know how they I

01:00:32.000 | Think they have extraordinarily powerful and long claws and in addition they're powerful bytes as well

01:00:39.720 | So I wonder and the same with the silverback. I don't know how much there. I love that we're having this discussion

01:00:45.520 | We need Joe Rogan for this. I think so. Yeah, I think so

01:00:49.180 | so

01:00:51.560 | Your your question has gone in and in about five different. So it started with strength

01:00:56.080 | and let's go back there, which is

01:00:58.880 | Do you think for an athlete in jiu-jitsu? Let's stick to grappling?

01:01:04.100 | Do you think strike strength is helpful or detrimental?

01:01:07.960 | I've always believed that two things will

01:01:12.560 | create whatever

01:01:15.560 | Whatever effectiveness you have in grappling those are your skill set and your attributes

01:01:21.320 | And the best athletes are those who excel in both

01:01:24.840 | Don't kid yourself if someone gets twice as strong

01:01:29.560 | By some kind of magic potion

01:01:32.640 | They're going to be a more effective grappler if someone gets twice the level of endurance that they had

01:01:37.960 | Previously they will be a more effective grappler. These physical attributes have a very important outcome on the

01:01:45.560 | Sorry a very important effect upon the outcome of matches

01:01:50.080 | It's always a good thing to be stronger. It's always a good thing to have better endurance

01:01:54.200 | It's always a good thing to have better balance or whatever other attribute you throw out there

01:01:58.600 | Gordon's point was okay. Everyone agrees on that but there's a problem in order to build these things

01:02:06.280 | You have to carve into other elements of your training regimen and then it becomes which becomes more important

01:02:13.920 | increases in strength or increases in skill

01:02:18.760 | There comes a point where

01:02:20.760 | Investing in strength training starts to get diminishing returns. I can't tell the difference between someone who bench presses

01:02:28.280 | 300 pounds on the mat versus someone who bench presses 400 pounds, but that's a big difference

01:02:34.040 | That's a hundred pound difference and for an athlete to go from bench pressing 300 pounds to 400 pounds

01:02:39.560 | That would require a great deal of of training effort and focus

01:02:44.880 | But if I can't tell the difference when I grapple and then why bother okay

01:02:48.960 | Once you get to a certain strength level

01:02:50.880 | It doesn't really help that much to go from a 400 pound bench press to a 450 pound bench press

01:02:56.280 | If that's the stage you you're really getting a diminishing and returns on your training investment

01:03:01.160 | Now skills on the other hand

01:03:04.160 | Experience far far less in terms of diminishing returns every new skill you develop

01:03:12.760 | Can translate very very well into big increases in performance. Look at the example of Gary Tonin that we talked about earlier

01:03:20.160 | investments in guillotine

01:03:22.840 | made a significant improvement in his

01:03:25.360 | Effectiveness in matches and led directly to some of his most important victories

01:03:29.700 | But if he had invested the same amount of training time in

01:03:34.600 | Developing a bench press that was 25 pounds more than previously that would have had no outcome no influence on the outcome of those matches

01:03:42.400 | So the question always becomes yep, everyone acknowledges that these physical

01:03:46.520 | Attributes are important and everyone understands that becoming stronger or fitter is a

01:03:52.920 | Desirable thing and every athlete should work on them. The interesting question becomes okay at what point do you start to say?

01:04:01.200 | I'm not going to be helped by further increases in

01:04:04.840 | in strength training or endurance training

01:04:08.040 | and

01:04:10.160 | my point with my athletes is in the

01:04:13.120 | overwhelming majority of cases

01:04:15.640 | If there's any kind of doubt

01:04:17.680 | Invest more heavily in skill training than attribute training, especially once you get to a certain level on the attributes

01:04:24.440 | well, the interesting thing that I think you should account for with strength training is

01:04:29.240 | There's Instagram

01:04:33.400 | There's the world it's a it seems to be more fun to build muscle mass

01:04:39.520 | It's like an addiction people have there's also economic elements to like most people I hate to say this, but it's true

01:04:46.640 | most people are more concerned with image than function and

01:04:51.560 | It's hard to sell a

01:04:55.480 | Fighter or a jujitsu athlete who doesn't look like one looks like Vader. Yeah, it's a tough sell now

01:05:03.840 | You can do it in fighting and in jujitsu because ultimately it's about whose

01:05:07.680 | Hand is raised at the end of the match and you could even use it as a selling point

01:05:11.440 | You can be a guy that doesn't look like he should be winning but he is winning that is a selling point

01:05:15.440 | but if you give most people a choice between

01:05:18.160 | Looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger and winning matches versus looking like Vader and winning matches most people will select

01:05:25.200 | I wish I'd rather look like Arnold Schwarzenegger. And so most athletes feel almost like an economic

01:05:31.400 | Impulsion to be in good shape and in order to advance their marketability

01:05:35.080 | Yeah, Nike's not gonna sponsor fate or tank habit. Yeah tank habit. No

01:05:42.080 | fatal, maybe

01:05:44.360 | But yeah, yeah, we need at the very top. There's there's something about a static

01:05:48.400 | Like image of strength and power. It's also an also a personal thing

01:05:54.160 | If you look at yourself in the mirror, do you like what what you see? You know what I mean?

01:05:58.400 | Yeah, do you find yourself attractive? You know, what what can you do to make you look better?

01:06:02.600 | And I think to me to me it was something and one of the reason I work out it's also for you for that

01:06:07.360 | Well, I'm sure if fatal looks in the mirror. He says I look damn good today

01:06:11.120 | Some people you know, it's harder for them. I mean, yeah

01:06:17.640 | Alright, so the question on training you guys John Gordon train

01:06:23.520 | Often three times a day every day

01:06:27.520 | I'm

01:06:28.520 | George had a different like a

01:06:31.480 | Different approach to training. So like what is for not? I don't mean that kind of the opposite or something

01:06:38.480 | It's just not every single day. So and

01:06:41.640 | obviously you are

01:06:44.400 | Legitimately at the very top in terms of performance accomplishment in the field. So what have you learned about?

01:06:53.200 | What it takes to train to become not just a lead but the best well I I a

01:06:59.600 | Lot of people when you say train they see training hard. I believe you need to be very constant

01:07:06.960 | And very disciplined you need to train but you don't need to train hard every day. That's what John taught me

01:07:17.200 | For me is the nervous system. Sometimes I feel if I load it up too much it comes to a point that you're

01:07:23.360 | It's too much. There is no no more information that I can absorb

01:07:28.000 | so

01:07:30.760 | And I do believe that it's something that you can train to your the

01:07:34.240 | capacity your capacity of being able to learn of absorbing certain thing and

01:07:39.200 | I did a lot of volume of training

01:07:42.280 | But when I when I was getting ready for a fight, especially during sparring day

01:07:48.120 | I like to do it quick because my when I fight it's five round of five minutes. I don't like to spend

01:07:55.400 | An hour or two hours in a gym because I need to know how hard I can be

01:08:05.040 | Going for 25 minutes, you know when I not for two hours for 25 minutes and at my last fight

01:08:12.080 | John and I we

01:08:14.080 | we

01:08:15.520 | We were thinking of how could we?

01:08:17.880 | Make me more

01:08:20.840 | of a better finisher, you know more opportunist and

01:08:24.480 | John, I remember we when we were training with Gordon Jake Schill came Gary Tonin

01:08:30.520 | my round of grappling were different than if I would be training for

01:08:35.320 | Abu Debbie, you know for for a bi or like some like in grappling the round are longer

01:08:41.960 | but in a mixed martial art fight

01:08:45.160 | It's very rare that you're gonna spend more than

01:08:49.360 | Four minutes or four minutes and a half on the ground. It's very unlikely

01:08:54.320 | I mean it could I can happen but so I

01:08:56.960 | Do you remember we did the round three minute we did all the round I was doing were three minute round

01:09:03.000 | So it gives a different

01:09:05.040 | Rhythm to the training it forced me to be more opportunist to be more of a finisher

01:09:11.800 | Because I had only three minute to do what I needed to do

01:09:15.000 | So if I if I say something I need to go for the kill right away

01:09:18.760 | I cannot be too over patient, you know what I mean?

01:09:21.480 | And it it served me well in my last fight and I think it that's a good blueprint to follow

01:09:27.280 | when you're a mixed martial art fighter if I would if

01:09:31.440 | the result where it was great and I think

01:09:34.680 | it

01:09:36.680 | Maybe I should have done that before it was a great great idea that we had not to do

01:09:41.680 | Be very careful doing too much volume

01:09:43.680 | Yes, try to get out and then try to focus on finishing getting getting up

01:09:48.520 | It's I mean it's obvious to build up your foundation

01:09:51.960 | I believe you need a lot of volume but when you get ready for a competition you need some to be something that

01:09:58.120 | Replicate what you're gonna be facing. What are you what are we talking about? What do you think?

01:10:03.680 | Like is there rest days five days a week?

01:10:06.880 | Twice a day once a day. Is there any one formula like that or no?

01:10:10.720 | This this I do not believe in over training. I believe in under rest. I

01:10:15.240 | believe

01:10:18.560 | You can be under rest and

01:10:21.000 | people

01:10:23.280 | Always link that immediately to the volume of their how much volume they they train which it could be something else

01:10:30.920 | How are you feeling? I'm emotionally. Are you you having?

01:10:35.600 | problems

01:10:36.720 | Personal problem. Do you have a hard time sleeping because you have a like someone died or I don't know like you

01:10:43.600 | You hold money you're broke or what like, you know, I mean could be anything

01:10:47.520 | There is something that can affect you psychologically or emotionally

01:10:52.160 | That made it in a way that you cannot sleep. Well because your your stress your cortisol level is high

01:10:59.960 | You're you know what? I mean all these factor need to be take taken in consideration

01:11:03.760 | It's not only about the volume of training people

01:11:07.240 | Always think the volume of the training is the only thing that can affect

01:11:13.160 | Recuperation which is not you know, yeah, I said to minimize the amount of stress from all kinds of fact

01:11:19.200 | It's a very stressful job to be a professional

01:11:23.600 | Combat athlete whether you're a grappler a boxer kickboxer a fighter and you need to be taking as

01:11:31.120 | Into account is it more or less stressful than marriage? Just kidding

01:11:36.000 | next question

01:11:39.160 | So, I don't know how to ask this question given what George just said but you training three times a day and

01:11:49.160 | Finishing and what what have you learned about what brings out the best in you as as the elite level grappler

01:11:55.680 | So over the recent years have actually changed it up a little bit

01:11:59.400 | when I was

01:12:01.840 | Coming up through from white to black belt. I felt that the volume was the most important

01:12:08.240 | So it would be anywhere from like three

01:12:11.080 | to seven sessions a day

01:12:15.160 | Going from school to school from New York to New Jersey, and I think that the volume was very important to build the skills

01:12:21.600 | Where I just didn't know how to move my body at purple belt the way that I should

01:12:27.920 | So I think that building the skills is

01:12:30.080 | It's super important. I think that early on volumes very important now that I already have the skills built

01:12:36.800 | I think that acquiring more knowledge is the most important

01:12:40.560 | So I find that if I do so many sessions a day like if I do three sessions a day

01:12:45.960 | I feel sometimes by the third session

01:12:48.680 | I'm just like so mentally like there's just there's so much information

01:12:52.880 | That's went through my head the first two sessions that I feel like I'm not even there mentally on the third session

01:12:57.520 | So I feel like doing less volume now

01:13:00.960 | But having more mental clarity per session is more important because I already have the foundational skills acquired

01:13:08.160 | So a lot of your training is almost like

01:13:10.160 | Just thinking like learning a lot of it. Yeah, so I'll do like

01:13:15.200 | I mean our schedules been messed up since the pandemic because Henzo's got shut down and they were using a French gym in Puerto Rico

01:13:21.620 | And now we're using a French gym in our and in Austin

01:13:24.780 | But once we have our own school have a setup schedule where I can pretty much just be there all day long

01:13:29.400 | But right now I do like a lifting session in the morning, and then I'll come in and help teach at Henzo's

01:13:34.900 | So I'm there mentally I'm seeing what's going on and I'm playing around with ideas in my head

01:13:40.120 | And then I'm there physically and very sharp mentally for the competition class during the 1 p.m.

01:13:45.920 | Session and then after that I'll go home. I'll rest and get ready for the next day

01:13:50.080 | What have you learned on seeing all these different athletes there a

01:13:55.800 | universal rule that applies or is it

01:13:58.920 | athlete specific

01:14:01.380 | First one thing needs to be addressed is that George and Gordon play very different sports with very different athletic demands

01:14:08.040 | Gordon can be in matches that range from anywhere from six minutes to literally hours long

01:14:15.900 | as a result

01:14:18.700 | the overall

01:14:20.700 | Pacing and intensity of matches is massively different most obviously there is no striking and Gordon sport

01:14:28.580 | Striking by its very nature is a much more explosive

01:14:31.280 | Physical action than grappling is grappling is primarily an isometric

01:14:36.300 | Kind of sport based around an isometric tension and endurance

01:14:40.320 | Georgia sport is

01:14:43.640 | Does feature a significant amount of isometric tension, but the majority of it is based around explosion

01:14:49.960 | So the physical demands of the two sports are radically different in addition the time of application is

01:14:57.600 | Radically different George raised a very interesting point his matches seem long 25 minutes for a championship match

01:15:03.840 | But always understand it

01:15:07.120 | It makes martial arts fight at championship level if it goes the distance is really

01:15:13.860 | five five minute matches each round is

01:15:18.000 | A match in itself and that's exactly how you're scored

01:15:21.760 | You're scored by who wins the most matches over five matches as a result the application of the techniques

01:15:28.840 | especially the grappling techniques has to be done at a certain pace as

01:15:32.320 | George pointed out realistically

01:15:34.760 | the maximum application time you're going to get in most situations is somewhere between

01:15:39.680 | 15 seconds and three minutes even for a specialized grappler like Damian Meyer

01:15:46.880 | There's still a significant part of each round which is spent in setup time to actually get the match to the ground

01:15:53.800 | It's very likely that at some point your opponent will stand up out of grappling and you'll have to reinitiate the entire process again

01:16:00.920 | So that even for specialized grapplers you might be spending only three minutes out of a five minute round

01:16:07.420 | On the ground and as a result you've got to get your work done in a very short time frame

01:16:15.400 | Gordon Ryan once it goes to the ground and it can go to the ground because he chooses to sit to the ground

01:16:20.560 | May spend the entire match in ground positions

01:16:25.120 | As a result the matches have completely different pacing and completely different physical demands and the preparation that the two athletes go through will reflect that

01:16:35.180 | If George st. Pierre in training for mixed martial arts becomes fatigued to a point

01:16:42.480 | Where he's no longer physically effective and able to defend himself the consequences for that in MMA training can be very deep indeed

01:16:50.040 | Okay, if you make a mistake in mixed martial arts because you're fatigued and tired and you take a full power roundhouse kick to the head

01:16:57.360 | That's some deep consequences a grappler doesn't have to face that you can be completely exhausted in grappling and just sit in the bottom of

01:17:05.440 | The mountain just practice just survival skills. We just don't get submitted from bottom out and that can still be an effective training session

01:17:12.240 | complete and utter physical breakdown of fatigue can be

01:17:15.680 | Can end an athlete's career and mixed martial arts the consequences of?

01:17:21.360 | training through fatigue and MMA

01:17:24.320 | Potentially very deep and very disturbing

01:17:27.640 | The consequences of training through complete physical exhaustion and grappling aren't really that severe. Okay, you just tap whenever there's a problem just tap

01:17:37.520 | And so they're very very different sports in the way you you prepare for them

01:17:42.280 | in a grappling

01:17:45.040 | athlete like Gordon Ryan we can take

01:17:47.960 | many more liberties with physical exhaustion and

01:17:51.200 | The amount of hours a day you spend in training then you could with a mixed martial arts athlete like actually be a benefit

01:17:57.980 | exhaustion as a

01:18:01.720 | Framework of learning so like from a place of exhaustion

01:18:05.400 | Is there any benefit to the you only you said being at the bottom of mouth sort of understanding?

01:18:11.280 | Did you get to grappling somehow deeper because you're physically absolutely absolutely

01:18:15.960 | Because then the only thing you have left in your favor is your technique and then you'll see how technical you are in

01:18:22.400 | addition you'll get to explore realms inside your mind that we don't spend a lot of time in and

01:18:28.840 | you'll learn a lot about yourself and your ability to do a which will have

01:18:33.600 | Potentially great benefits in similar situations and matches. Yeah, there's a I mean for me for a recreational person

01:18:41.160 | getting

01:18:43.760 | Exhaustion allows you the great benefit to experience what it feels like to really get dominated at an even greater frequency

01:18:50.640 | than you otherwise would and

01:18:53.680 | There's something there there's some animalistic thing that's very unpleasant and then afterwards it takes you to a nice to a place of

01:19:00.760 | like

01:19:02.840 | humility and I

01:19:04.480 | Know you get it forces you to rethink life in positive ways

01:19:09.000 | There's something about dominance. It can be if you get dominated a few times you can

01:19:14.520 | Rationalize it somehow you say okay

01:19:17.920 | well I've screwed this up but with it when you're exhausted and you have to do like 30 minutes or 40 minutes or an hour of

01:19:24.160 | Just being down me over and over and over being submitted

01:19:27.000 | It I don't know. It's it's a very good process for

01:19:30.960 | For other avenues of life. I find I can't explain why some I'm

01:19:37.440 | Driving home crying afterwards listening to Bruce Springsteen, but afterwards

01:19:44.000 | Yeah, this

01:19:46.960 | Afterwards somehow you can think clearer you can see clear about what is the right path through life in all walks of life like

01:19:53.800 | relationships work, but also the grappling

01:19:57.080 | Actually, the grappling is the hardest one to see what you have to do

01:20:00.360 | It clarifies other avenues the humility. It's the it removes the bullshit

01:20:05.880 | It's like we see the world through some kind of fog and it just removes it and now you can see things clearly

01:20:13.600 | I don't know what that is. I think I think it's important

01:20:16.680 | Like you mentioned to push yourself like sometime

01:20:19.280 | To see how far you can go because sometimes you can go further than than what you think and it can boost your confidence

01:20:27.120 | You know

01:20:27.480 | You can push yourself through a certain limit and maybe you thought your limit were was before that point and you push through it

01:20:34.800 | But like John just mentioned it's a risky thing to do in

01:20:40.880 | Striking because if you're exhausted, you're gonna get brain damage and grappling it's you know

01:20:47.240 | You tap if something wrong, but you can do it also in strength conditioning. I like to run track

01:20:51.800 | I do it all the time and track and feel it. It helps me to

01:20:55.360 | To to know myself better. I think it's important. So it's a good point

01:21:00.560 | It's like it's like the scrimmage wrestling rounds we do it's like, you know, if you stop moving

01:21:06.360 | That you're gonna get scored on and you know in your mind like there's no mechanical reason why I am

01:21:12.440 | Why I should give up a score here, but you're so exhausted that you're like, oh man, this is terrible

01:21:17.280 | If I if I stop moving, I'm a pussy

01:21:19.480 | If I don't stop move if I don't stop moving I'm gonna be twice as exhausted when we actually do stand up

01:21:24.900 | So it's a it's an interesting game. You have to play inside your mind. It's it's your pride very often that that

01:21:30.440 | Keep you that keep you

01:21:33.800 | Sharp, you know what? I mean? Because you just want to lay down and beat it because you're completely exhausted, you know

01:21:40.000 | What do you think is the connection John between this ego pride thing?

01:21:46.160 | martial arts and actual violence in our

01:21:49.960 | With our ancestors. Do you think you ever plug into that?

01:21:54.480 | You think there's echoes of something going on there or like you mentioned you have flaws and demons

01:21:59.400 | Is it deep in there somewhere?

01:22:02.160 | Do you think we're struggling with those demons?

01:22:04.160 | Yeah, you'll need to patch up your question or what though. It's going in several different directions. Wow

01:22:10.120 | That was not only my big dominant. It's just I mean Dominic

01:22:14.280 | We're like, okay now we interview you

01:22:20.600 | I mean, do you think do you I don't mean just a line between what is what is martial arts and what is violence?

01:22:31.400 | I mean there there seems to be a gray area and that connects us to the the evolutionary ancestors. Absolutely

01:22:38.680 | Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I think there's a deep

01:22:41.040 | recognition and all of us that

01:22:44.320 | and this is

01:22:46.640 | The evidence for this is is so easy to to see in in daily life

01:22:51.800 | If you're walking down the street and suddenly you hear a commotion and two people are fighting

01:23:00.960 | You will see literally everyone on that street stop whatever they're doing and watch the fight

01:23:08.080 | Humans are

01:23:11.640 | fascinated by

01:23:13.040 | violence and

01:23:14.560 | You've got to ask yourself why and of course, it's a recognition that for a significant part of our evolutionary history

01:23:22.680 | violence was one of the most important elements in

01:23:27.360 | Human existence as much as we curse it as much as we talk badly of it

01:23:33.280 | The juxtaposition between humans social nature and their need to for each other to get along and to express

01:23:43.000 | Love amongst the the various members of a given community

01:23:46.880 | there are

01:23:49.520 | Disputes between humans that can't be resolved and ultimately

01:23:53.640 | Throughout history violence has been the number one method of

01:23:56.720 | conflict resolution

01:23:59.920 | for better or for worse and there's a recognition and all of us that

01:24:04.840 | This is where we come from and there's a reason why

01:24:09.120 | Combat sports have this thing where people will watch them and they might even be repulsed by them

01:24:16.360 | but they find it difficult to take their eyes from it and

01:24:19.080 | I

01:24:22.720 | Do believe that most combat athletes carry that sense of their

01:24:28.160 | even if it's on a subconscious level this kind of belief that

01:24:32.880 | This is who we are

01:24:35.880 | George you use the word pride and I believe that's a big part of it. I believe that

01:24:40.400 | Most

01:24:44.760 | humans have this sense of self-worth and pride which they're willing to fight for and

01:24:49.960 | If it gets crossed by someone else, they're willing to stand that

01:24:53.320 | Some people will stand more early and some people could be pushed further back, but everyone's got that line

01:24:59.200 | beyond which they won't be pushed and

01:25:01.600 | There's some kind of deep recognition and all of us that we have that somewhere within us

01:25:06.600 | No matter how hard we try to bury it or what have you and that's why I believe there will always be this eternal

01:25:12.800 | interest in combat sports

01:25:17.040 | Now I don't believe that most people today have any kind of respect for unrestricted violence or

01:25:24.400 | non-consensual violence

01:25:27.480 | I think most people most good people are repulsed by that now. I'm I'm sure that as humanity

01:25:34.160 | Improves out into the future that will become more and more widespread

01:25:38.040 | but

01:25:39.960 | That's not to say we can't exercise these these

01:25:44.320 | Old evolutionary demons inside of us and

01:25:47.120 | And

01:25:50.400 | sometimes there are just disputes between different people different cultures different nations where ultimately it's going to come to

01:25:57.320 | Into into a shoving match and that will degenerate further into violence

01:26:01.960 | there's always going to be a need for humans to be able to

01:26:05.680 | to

01:26:07.720 | express themselves

01:26:09.600 | Through violent methods and to use physical force to get to their their goals and objectives

01:26:14.720 | Our

01:26:18.240 | our need as humans is always to find a balance between

01:26:21.760 | the two forces of conflict and

01:26:25.080 | Cooperation we need cooperation because humans isolated from each other more or less helpless and useless

01:26:32.120 | in order to

01:26:34.600 | Advance human communities need to build and grow and so that sense of cooperation

01:26:40.440 | occurs in most of our daily lives

01:26:43.320 | but there will also be

01:26:45.760 | Irresolvable conflicts where physical force has to be used to form a resolution and so most human beings find themselves

01:26:52.640 | swinging like a pendulum between conflict and cooperation and

01:26:56.800 | And that is something which

01:27:02.640 | Really gives birth I think to combat sports because sorry. I really have to ask you about this then there's a guy in Harvard

01:27:09.920 | Named Richard Rangham, and there's a lot of people that believe this he wrote this book that

01:27:15.960 | Basically, there's a lot of people studying is what happened. How do we get from apes to humans?

01:27:22.040 | Like what was the magic thing right a lot of people attributed to fire and ability to cook meat

01:27:27.240 | There's a lot of different theories. So he actually

01:27:32.520 | his

01:27:34.520 | Theory how do I describe this is basically that that the beta males one?

01:27:39.920 | that the the the

01:27:43.440 | Apes that were able to cooperate. So you the way you develop cooperation is there's a big bad leader

01:27:51.720 | that

01:27:53.880 | the alpha male

01:27:55.680 | that you can only

01:27:58.200 | Knock off their throne if you cooperate and so we built big tribes that just excelled the cooperation by

01:28:05.920 | Practicing the overthrowing the leader and so and anytime an alpha male would rise up they would get would

01:28:12.920 | Would develop our skill further and further of cooperation. And so we're all just beta males

01:28:19.520 | The descendants of beta mouse that says kind of theory that cooperation is fundamental and it's so distinct to the the rest of the

01:28:28.640 | neighboring animal kingdom

01:28:30.640 | So fascinating. I wonder what you think about this tension of violence of cooperation

01:28:35.640 | How important is this cooperation to the core of you know, who is you you can look at it in the in a given training room?

01:28:43.320 | Jiu-jitsu and mixed martial arts is solo sports a solo athlete steps into the cage or steps onto the mat

01:28:50.900 | but all of your preparation is done in a cooperative training environment with many peers and

01:28:57.920 | As much as it's an individual sport all of your preparation is done in it as part of a group

01:29:04.680 | There's a sense in which

01:29:09.720 | That's an interesting metaphor for humanity itself everything we do in life

01:29:14.080 | We do alone, but we grow up in this given community and what have you

01:29:18.720 | With regards the the whole alpha male beta male thing

01:29:27.600 | Humans are it's true. This fella's correct. We you know, most

01:29:32.760 | primates do have very strongly defined alpha males who rule the roost and determine the entire direction of the

01:29:40.920 | The community they build around themselves

01:29:47.400 | Humans on the other hand

01:29:51.360 | Don't have an alpha male in that strict

01:29:55.160 | Biological sense of someone who's responsible for the next generation

01:29:58.200 | Dominates all the female population, etc

01:30:02.280 | Yeah physically dominates but we do on the other hand have our own

01:30:06.600 | version of alpha males and so far as we have political and sociological leaders who have a

01:30:12.200 | Disproportionate impact on the direction of a community

01:30:16.520 | So was the cooperation allowed us to

01:30:22.960 | Have a greater scale of hierarchy with the alpha male on top or the alpha creature on top. Yeah. Yeah

01:30:29.720 | No, that's a fascinating theory

01:30:32.000 | In in nature were were very weak as a species

01:30:37.520 | so we needed to cooperate in order to to evolve that I think

01:30:43.040 | Made us that the top of the food chain if you look at

01:30:47.640 | Humanity in nature

01:30:52.360 | really the two things that seem to

01:30:54.360 | More than anything else determine whether or not a given human community will be

01:31:00.920 | Successful in a predatory world on numbers and technology

01:31:05.680 | Okay

01:31:06.760 | the more your numbers increase and the the higher the technology of the weapons and

01:31:10.880 | Support systems you have around you the more successful you'll be in a predatory world

01:31:14.920 | So it's not clear that just

01:31:18.720 | Killing off the idea of an alpha male was the the single biggest thing

01:31:23.520 | the rise of technology

01:31:26.720 | and the growth of community

01:31:28.920 | After the imposition of language, these are other things that would have been very very important factors and in humanities rise

01:31:35.680 | George you made an interesting point if you look at humans

01:31:38.720 | Just the raw material of humans with with with fucking pathetic

01:31:43.640 | And a predatory animal kingdom, we're just the absolute bottom of the food chain

01:31:48.320 | We don't have a single

01:31:51.320 | effective

01:31:52.760 | Weapon other than better than average endurance. That's about it

01:31:56.040 | But you put us in a community who can talk to each other with language give us the time

01:32:02.640 | to come up with technological advances such as metals

01:32:08.240 | And suddenly a human will go from no combat effectiveness in the animal kingdom

01:32:13.560 | To a human armed with a simple metal tip spear can kill

01:32:18.480 | Damn near any animal in the in the animal kingdom and working as a group. I'll beat your silver back

01:32:25.600 | You know, I'll I'll fight him in a deep water pool because he cannot swim so I don't have to touch him

01:32:32.560 | He'll drown and I'll get him into the pool

01:32:35.240 | You know why because someone told me because we live in a community someone told me that information so I know he passed it on to me

01:32:42.120 | Yeah, he taught you

01:32:44.360 | Well, you have to convince him to you have to somehow convince him to join you in the pool, which is very difficult

01:32:49.600 | It's a very problem. Very very difficult

01:32:53.040 | From a technical perspective John you've looked at

01:32:59.840 | Mixed martial arts fighting in general and grappling. What's the difference between fighting and grappling?

01:33:04.600 | That's something I'd love to ask all of you. Maybe John you can start like well

01:33:10.560 | When you talk about fighting you mean unrestricted

01:33:13.960 | MMA top-time fighting. Yeah, it's funny. You said unrestricted MMA type MMA type fighting. So there's this this

01:33:22.880 | Yep. Yeah, there's MMA fighting and then there's grappling. It's really the sport of grappling you're saying

01:33:29.640 | Okay, what's the difference between MMA and grappling? Yes. Okay

01:33:32.040 | See that would have been a much better question. Yes

01:33:34.840 | well the

01:33:37.440 | the single

01:33:38.840 | When you talk about grappling you're talking about jiu-jitsu rules on yeah

01:33:42.440 | I mean you could maybe also mention different rule sets that somehow fundamentally challenge change the sport, you know

01:33:48.680 | in the sport of mixed martial arts

01:33:51.320 | You've got two

01:33:55.400 | Ways to inflict damage on the human body you've got kinetic energy which is done through striking

01:34:01.200 | kicking knees elbows fists

01:34:04.000 | and you've got

01:34:06.520 | Isometric tension used along the lines of

01:34:10.280 | lever and fulcrum

01:34:12.680 | Which can be used for strangulation and joint breaking

01:34:15.840 | In grappling you lose one of those you you're no longer allowed to hurt your opponent with kinetic energy

01:34:22.440 | you can do it accidentally through a throw, but you're not allowed to just

01:34:25.320 | You know knock someone out with a throw in most grappling sports it can happen

01:34:29.960 | But it's relatively rare and it's it's not encouraged by the rule set. So

01:34:34.040 | Yeah, you got close

01:34:39.320 | So

01:34:41.960 | there's a sense in which in mixed martial arts you got twice as many problems to deal with and

01:34:46.520 | and they occur in a

01:34:51.200 | much shorter time frame the single biggest difference between grappling technique as a weapon in

01:34:57.680 | Human combat versus striking technique is time

01:35:01.120 | Grappling technique takes a huge amount of time to apply

01:35:05.040 | Okay, the great advantage of grappling technique is certainty of outcome once you get there

01:35:10.660 | It takes a huge amount of time to set up a takedown

01:35:15.160 | physically take them down

01:35:18.040 | Work their way work your way towards a dominant position culminating in your opponent's back and then apply a stranglehold

01:35:24.760 | that's a long chain of events as

01:35:27.240 | opposed to a

01:35:29.840 | Strong punch or kick which can take quarter of a second than application from start to finish and the matches over

01:35:37.080 | and

01:35:39.240 | so there's a sense in which

01:35:41.240 | Grappling is it's

01:35:46.320 | It's fighting for the patient and the calculating

01:35:49.600 | Whereas striking is much more for us in this short time frame where everything gets done and in the blink of an eye

01:35:58.920 | There's a sense also which grappling is a much more forgiving sport. You can make a terrible mistake

01:36:05.360 | End up in a terrible position and still fight your way out and win

01:36:09.520 | in

01:36:11.720 | Mixed martial arts. It's much much less forgiving

01:36:16.240 | If you get hit and stunned your chances of recovery

01:36:19.800 | Minimal you're going to get swarmed on and unless it's right at the end of the round you it's very very hard to recover from

01:36:27.080 | Getting hit and swarmed on

01:36:29.080 | So there's a sense in which

01:36:32.680 | The biggest difference between them is time of application of technique

01:36:35.920 | In mixed martial arts, it's incredibly unforgiving in terms of time

01:36:40.920 | Even the smallest error can have the deepest consequences in grappling. You can make massive errors and still come back and win

01:36:48.280 | Grappling will typically be won

01:36:51.880 | in a much higher percentage case by the more skilled and conditioned grappler, whereas there is

01:36:59.080 | much more of what they call a punches chance in mixed martial arts where

01:37:05.240 | There's a much higher likelihood of a lesser athlete

01:37:09.800 | Defeating a greater athlete in MMA than there isn't grappling simply because of time of application of his techniques

01:37:15.920 | Even the smallest period of inattention in MMA and the match is over

01:37:20.980 | Gordon Ryan could fall asleep for 30 seconds have his opponent mounted on and wake up and finish him in five minutes later

01:37:27.760 | It's not gonna happen in MMA

01:37:29.840 | Okay, so the the stakes are much higher

01:37:33.160 | You can do a lot of damage in a very small amount of time and just the dynamic temporal dynamics of how things happen

01:37:38.280 | Is near different everything you'll see will be a reflection of that

01:37:41.400 | Then you go further into things like rule sets in the sport of grappling if Gordon Ryan comes out and sits down

01:37:47.880 | in the middle of the mat his opponent must follow him to the ground and engage in

01:37:53.800 | Mixed martial arts if you come to the center of the cage and sit down

01:37:58.480 | The other guy can just walk away from you. They're completely

01:38:03.160 | Oriented in different directions grappling is ground centered MMA is typically standing centered

01:38:08.600 | It's begin of every round you have to start standing again

01:38:11.280 | If I disengage from a ground grappling situation stand up and walk away from my opponent

01:38:17.640 | My opponent must follow me up to the feet in

01:38:20.040 | Grappling. It's the exact opposite if I sit to the ground my opponent must follow me to the ground

01:38:25.720 | It's written into the rule set and so one is inherently ground or oriented and one is inherently standing oriented

01:38:31.760 | So it's more it's more difficult to dictate where the fight happens in mixed martial arts

01:38:35.920 | Yes, you have to be able to impose where the fighters where is in grappling you can simply choose it

01:38:40.960 | So George, what is your sense of the the difference in terms of how you approached it?

01:38:46.920 | Between the two sports. So you also are a student of wrestling and grappling so in preparing for fights

01:38:54.880 | What parts of grappling purely the sport that you have to leave behind

01:39:01.640 | I

01:39:03.400 | Am very lucky. I had the opportunity to I train with I consider the best

01:39:08.720 | mentor trainer I ever ever had and

01:39:11.560 | I have

01:39:13.560 | Some of the best grapplers that I can train with they were they were there to help me to my career

01:39:19.560 | so

01:39:22.040 | for my training is

01:39:24.040 | Of course because I do not dedicate as much time in one specific area

01:39:29.400 | It's hard to be you know a world-class athlete and that in only one particular area always

01:39:36.520 | for me

01:39:38.680 | Like the idea to be more well-rounded to be very competent in every of those areas striking grappling

01:39:45.960 | takedowns and all those areas then being just very good at one and

01:39:52.760 | not as good at as others, you know because I like the idea that

01:39:59.480 | It gives me more option when I fight someone I can

01:40:03.760 | mold myself to become the perfect nemesis to

01:40:07.760 | That person better if I'm more well-rounded if I do not have those well-rounded skill

01:40:14.000 | and

01:40:15.800 | I don't have that option, you know

01:40:17.800 | You have less tools to work with less technology. What about you Gordon? What?

01:40:24.520 | What do you think is very distinct about grappling in the way you approach it versus fighting

01:40:29.200 | I think most of it was covered

01:40:30.920 | But I think that though the one one of the big things is the fact that when you're looking at MMA

01:40:36.000 | You have a pretty general agreed-upon and unified rule set where if you look at UFC versus Bellator

01:40:43.120 | There they have slight differences in the rules maybe

01:40:45.720 | But it's pretty much the same thing

01:40:48.200 | Whereas in grappling you have EBI rules and you have a DCC rules you have IBGJF rules

01:40:53.280 | You have no time limit rules and each rule set will play to the skills of different athletes

01:40:59.600 | If you have if you do ADCC rules

01:41:02.600 | it generally is slightly biased towards wrestlers or if they can stall to the overtime and

01:41:07.720 | Then hit a takedown in the overtime and not really doing a jiu-jitsu, but they score a takedown

01:41:12.920 | They're gonna win whereas if you have like an EBI, for example

01:41:16.200 | You have to finish the guy in regulation or you start in a jiu-jitsu position with your back taken or in an armbar

01:41:23.100 | so I think that you have

01:41:25.100 | certain rule sets that play in the favor of

01:41:28.380 | certain athletes and

01:41:31.060 | Certain athletes can win in one rule set but then they just have no chance of winning in the other

01:41:36.380 | Like when I fought Yuri the first time in EBI

01:41:38.780 | I beat him in EBI the chances of me beating him on that night under an ADCC rule set were probably pretty low

01:41:44.640 | When I fought Leandro low under an ADCC rule set he beat me that day

01:41:49.560 | But the chances of him beating me in the same day in an EBI rules that were like next to zero

01:41:53.360 | So I think it's interesting that

01:41:56.460 | In MMA you have one unified rule set which have small differences, but they're all generally the same

01:42:02.580 | I'm in and jiu-jitsu you have a wide variety of different rule sets that

01:42:06.420 | have

01:42:09.140 | Biases towards a certain athlete skill sets you mentioned Leandro low. I got to ask you again about ADCC

01:42:18.300 | You have lost very very few times in your career

01:42:21.860 | one I mean this is the same is true for George and

01:42:25.960 | The only person who has ever submitted you is Felipe Pena black belt. Yeah a black belt

01:42:31.880 | He is a DCC world champion multiple-time IBJJF Guianogi world champion

01:42:38.560 | You may face him a ADCC or elsewhere in the future

01:42:42.500 | Will you beat him?

01:42:46.180 | Yes, I mean I have to say yes, right

01:42:48.340 | but uh, I

01:42:50.340 | Fought him initially when I first got my black belt that I fought him a year later. So 2016 and

01:42:55.880 | 2017 and despite what people remember about the match and whenever people talk about it's like oh, yeah

01:43:02.140 | The guy who strangled Gordon but no one remembers that the first match was like a 45 minute war

01:43:06.620 | And then the second match with the full 20 minutes of ADCC and if I didn't get my back taken in like the last

01:43:13.460 | Minute and a half two minutes. It would have went into an overtime. I could change the outcome of the match

01:43:17.780 | I

01:43:20.220 | Think that if you look at Felipe's performances, especially nogi specifically nogi since then it looks like he's almost gotten worse

01:43:28.400 | whereas since that match

01:43:30.780 | in 2017

01:43:33.300 | the only match I lost after that was against Vinny my glish by my points and

01:43:39.540 | I'm on like a 55 match win streak over the course of four years

01:43:44.300 | winning all the major tournaments nogi and

01:43:47.060 | Felipe since that match I think is like five and two

01:43:51.340 | Nogi and he's lost his last two match matches one was convincingly where he was dominated by Andre and one was by submission

01:43:59.340 | So I don't think that he's progressed nearly as fast if anything

01:44:03.860 | He looks he's worse than he was when he beat me in 2017 based on his previous performances

01:44:08.940 | That being said I know he's gonna come in training very hard for this one and he's gonna be prepared, but I just don't think

01:44:14.940 | that in terms of technical ability, he's anywhere near my level and

01:44:20.620 | He was much bigger than me both times. We fought the first time. He was much bigger than me the second time

01:44:27.260 | He was one way class above me. So now there's not going to be an advantage in

01:44:30.900 | Technicality and it's also not going to be a physicality advantage. So I think he's just gonna be beat everywhere

01:44:36.500 | This is a good example of the scientific response to a

01:44:43.260 | To a comment to a question. Yeah, so he's not

01:44:47.980 | But that's a match you're you're not deeply concerned with

01:44:54.260 | And in terms of the set of opponents because you you have and you will be facing a lot of really difficult

01:45:00.340 | Yeah, that's actually in my opinion one of the easier matches because of the fact that we're relatively the same size

01:45:06.300 | if I show up at 230 pounds like a lot of the guys are

01:45:10.180 | 260 270 plus so that extra weight doesn't make a difference. I think out of that entire bracket

01:45:16.140 | Felipe is probably gonna be the one of the easiest matches because of the fact that I can easily take him down and

01:45:21.660 | If I take him down, I'm gonna pass his guard

01:45:23.940 | Whereas I feel like the other guys because there's so much bigger and they're very cagey

01:45:28.460 | It may take me a while to actually take them to the ground

01:45:33.140 | And get on top of them

01:45:34.460 | And I think it may be they may be longer drawn-out matches because of the fact that they're so much bigger and stally

01:45:39.540 | It's hard to take them down. But Felipe is relatively my size and as wrestling is atrocious

01:45:44.420 | So I've already taken him down in the last ADCC match

01:45:47.260 | So I'm pretty sure I can just easily put him down pass him and then finish him

01:45:51.060 | Well, I'm not sure what response I was expecting but that was those those phrase beautifully

01:46:00.180 | We talked about the Tiago Alves fight that George had and John barred up in class yesterday I

01:46:06.580 | Believe but the point is we're talking about wrestling and I think that that's a fascinating fight that

01:46:12.580 | There's an incredible display of strategy of skill of heart

01:46:16.940 | George could you maybe talk about that fight John? Maybe - what lessons you gained from that fight?

01:46:23.300 | Go ahead. It was your fight not mine

01:46:27.860 | Well, maybe it also tell what happened in terms of your injury I think they're around oh, yeah

01:46:33.580 | So I was fighting Tiago Alves and in the third round. I

01:46:38.340 | Tear my adductor muscle

01:46:42.100 | It happened when I was on the bottom and he I think he pushed my knee down tried to pass my guard and I heard

01:46:47.780 | a pop I

01:46:49.260 | Don't know what I think you're going for an arm bar

01:46:51.260 | You were on his back you switched to arm bar and he cleared the leg by pushing on your leg and you went in with

01:46:57.300 | A pre-existing injury and it tore. Yes, and and it get worse and and I heard a pop

01:47:03.900 | I didn't know what it was, but I know it really hurt. So I came back standing up and

01:47:08.500 | there's a

01:47:10.540 | Famous video one that goes on the internet about when I go back in the corner and I tell my my coach

01:47:16.820 | I'm like, I don't know what it is. I think I tore my my my adductor muscle and

01:47:21.080 | Great Jackson is like I don't care hit him with your growing

01:47:25.920 | I

01:47:27.200 | Was very worried because I wasn't paying but I didn't know I did not know what what I had

01:47:32.360 | So I didn't know the gravity of it and it plays on your mind

01:47:37.480 | So but I had to buy it to bite down my mouthpiece and finish the fight, you know

01:47:41.920 | I knew I was ahead on the on the scorecard and now I needed to finish finish strong

01:47:47.200 | So what was your strategy there in terms of strikes in terms of wrestling? So he's

01:47:52.080 | Exceptionally difficult opponent to take down. Yeah. Well at first I

01:47:56.080 | Knew I would add a good jab a good, you know to stay always

01:48:00.760 | From the outside, you know fight him from the outside and and use my footwork because he was like a tank

01:48:07.040 | it was much bigger and much stronger than me and

01:48:09.960 | I

01:48:11.840 | Didn't want never wanted to stay in front of him

01:48:14.120 | So he was all the way out or all the way in and when I was coming all the way in it was with

01:48:19.000 | my proactive or reactive takedown where I

01:48:22.480 | myself initiated the takedown by

01:48:26.200 | using a distraction like a jab to make it is and goes up and then I go with a

01:48:33.120 | single or double leg or

01:48:35.640 | to react like baiting him for him to come hit me and then

01:48:39.940 | While he's coming to hit me. I go change level and

01:48:43.320 | That's the way I like to take my opponent down

01:48:46.360 | You know some guys for example, like like cabbie, for example, he's very good at

01:48:50.920 | Bringing his opponent to defense and use chain wrestling to take his opponent down. I find it for me for myself. I specialize more into

01:48:59.920 | Explosive takedown in the center of the octagon because I found it more economical for me

01:49:05.840 | What what did you see you were you're commenting John about the wrestling

01:49:11.720 | Those those quite interesting. I mean also, can you generally comment on the fact that George St. Pierre who don't I don't think you wrestled I

01:49:19.600 | Russell I started wrestling I was 19 years old, but I wrestled some very good Russian guys

01:49:25.400 | so they took me underneath their wing and but

01:49:28.080 | my ability to cover distance

01:49:31.200 | Come from karate does not come from wrestling wrestling is how I finish once I got the leg how I finish the takedown

01:49:39.120 | So the the timing and the movement and the explosion are wired for this crowd. Yeah, I

01:49:43.400 | Think an important distinction to make here is one which George

01:49:49.520 | Made throughout his career and I believe George you were the greatest innovator in MMA history

01:49:55.640 | with regards this and this is

01:49:59.200 | the creation of what George calls shoot boxing, which is the amalgamation of

01:50:06.440 | Striking technique in George's case mostly karate because that was his martial arts background

01:50:10.840 | into grappling and in particular takedowns

01:50:15.120 | When most people say so-and-so has better wrestling in mixed martial arts

01:50:23.520 | You have to be very careful what they mean by this

01:50:27.480 | there are many highly credentialed wrestlers in the early days of mixed martial arts who went in and

01:50:34.400 | Truly struggled to head a takedown

01:50:36.400 | Now these are very very good wrestlers who in a wrestling match would easily put down their opponent

01:50:42.760 | but in a striking situation where the ranges are completely different and the setups are

01:50:49.400 | Entirely different the stances are different even the the overall conditions are different. You're no longer wearing shoes

01:50:56.640 | people

01:50:58.480 | underestimate just what an impact it is for a wrestler to take the shoes off you lose like 20% of your forward drive the

01:51:04.440 | minute you take off the shoes

01:51:06.440 | All of these make massive differences in whether or not you're going to be able to even make contact with an opponent for a takedown

01:51:14.840 | as

01:51:17.320 | George pointed out the true value of wrestling in MMA is finishing the takedown once you've established contact

01:51:24.080 | But that's only about 20% of the action of an of a mixed martial arts takedown

01:51:28.640 | 80% of it is an understanding range rhythm setup

01:51:32.880 | opportunity etc, etc and

01:51:35.880 | That's not part of wrestling at all

01:51:39.080 | You even the overall conditions are completely different in the sport of wrestling you start a very close range in a very bent over stance

01:51:45.960 | And you're expected to wrestle for an international stars for three minutes at a time

01:51:51.960 | Now suddenly you're completely upright

01:51:54.280 | and

01:51:57.640 | You're not wearing shoes all the conditions the the rhythm and speed of it is different the counters are completely different

01:52:04.640 | it's just an entirely different animal and so George was an early recognizer of this and

01:52:10.640 | Started to put the emphasis on direct training for shoot boxing

01:52:16.680 | In addition to wrestling so he practiced with very good wrestlers in the Montreal Wrestling Club

01:52:22.400 | Just the sport of wrestling and that's what made him very good at finishing takedowns, but it was in his shoot boxing training

01:52:30.640 | Which he himself largely developed remember George started at a time when MMA was pretty damn young and

01:52:38.760 | He we were when when you entered the sport of mixed martial arts George it wasn't even allowed on TV

01:52:46.920 | Like it was completely banned. It was in his country. It was

01:52:49.680 | physically banned

01:52:51.560 | They had to fight on Indian reservations and the I mean this is way back in the Wild West days of MMA

01:52:56.640 | And so as a as a young developing athlete he had to

01:53:00.220 | More or less do this by himself

01:53:02.880 | If you ever want to hear some incredible stories talk about teenage George St. Pierre

01:53:07.560 | Had a coach who used to make him put on boxing gloves now

01:53:12.300 | he was 16 17 years old and just put him on a hardwood floor against a professional boxer who was in his

01:53:19.140 | late 20s at the peak of his career and

01:53:21.780 | He said George you're not allowed to punch. You just got to take him down while he tries to knock you out and

01:53:26.940 | There was it was crazy

01:53:29.460 | Darwinism, yeah, he was like it's like you're gonna you're gonna

01:53:33.820 | Adapt or you're gonna die

01:53:36.660 | Literally and he could have been very bad, but it turns out to be great is methods

01:53:41.420 | But there's a sensor in which people think oh, you know

01:53:45.660 | What determines your takedown ability in MMA is your wrestling skill that?

01:53:50.740 | Your wrestling skill will determine your finishing ability on takedowns, but there's so much more to it than that

01:53:57.980 | Whenever people say, you know, what what are the broad?

01:54:03.460 | Elements that determine the outcome of a mixed martial arts fight

01:54:07.160 | Okay on the broadest possible level. I always give the same three things

01:54:11.380 | The athlete who can dominate the pace of the match

01:54:16.820 | The athlete who can dominate the direction of the match and the athlete who can dominate the setups

01:54:23.380 | Will win the vast majority of fights therein those three things

01:54:27.940 | The direction the pace and the setups you dominate all three of those

01:54:33.220 | You're gonna win 90% of the matches you're in

01:54:36.260 | George could always dominate the direction of the fight because he could stop the other guy taking him down and

01:54:42.660 | He could impose his own takedowns at any point in a match

01:54:46.120 | So whether went to ground or whether it stays standing was always up to him

01:54:50.620 | George had the most sophisticated array of setups and to takedowns

01:54:55.220 | That I've personally ever witnessed

01:54:59.460 | The whole distinction between reactive and proactive takedowns came very early in George's career and

01:55:05.100 | He excelled in both most people tend to favor one or the other

01:55:09.460 | Most athletes have a very hard time

01:55:12.940 | imposing

01:55:15.580 | Their setups on an opponent and as a result they have to use

01:55:18.460 | The cage as a crutch for their for their setups

01:55:22.300 | Would they just bully someone towards occasion then put them down on the cage?

01:55:26.180 | George is one of the very few people who was equally good against the cage or in the open and could do so in both proactive

01:55:32.380 | and reactive

01:55:33.860 | situations

01:55:35.860 | and

01:55:37.500 | The scary thing is that as good as all of you saw him look in the octagon

01:55:43.980 | Anyone who knows George as a coach will tell you he was twice as good as that in the gym

01:55:51.140 | Where he would often go against people several weight divisions above himself

01:55:54.700 | I could sit here all day. I won't name names, but I always laugh when people say oh, this is the greatest

01:56:00.220 | pound for pound guy of all time and I've personally seen George

01:56:04.140 | Take that guy down and crush him in the gym

01:56:06.980 | And I can't say anything because it's rude to talk about that in public because it's just training

01:56:10.780 | But I've seen George go with people all the way to light heavyweight some of the greatest names in the history of the sport

01:56:15.860 | Put them down

01:56:17.860 | Advanced position on the ground and dominate them in training. It's it's what he did during that time. I

01:56:23.820 | Georgia I got to say I deeply admire many of the things I saw you do not just in the octagon but in training as

01:56:31.140 | well as

01:56:32.820 | the the impact that you had on

01:56:35.140 | The degree to which

01:56:39.540 | Takedowns we use this sport was absolutely inspirational

01:56:44.300 | That's why one of one of the reasons why I always say you're one of the only athlete I ever met who taught me

01:56:49.820 | more than than I taught you because you opened my eyes to a whole new world of

01:56:54.460 | Shootboxing and how I grew up in a time when you I was laughing before when you talked about sugar a Leonard

01:57:01.940 | I was a kid watching that match and I grew up in a time where there was

01:57:06.140 | boxing and there was kickboxing and then I came to America and I learned grappling and

01:57:10.700 | This young man here was the innovator when it came to the integration of the two

01:57:15.780 | Well, then I have to ask cuz George sits here uncomfortably being complimented

01:57:19.940 | If George st. Pierre and

01:57:23.580 | Khabib Nurmagomedov face each other in their prime who wins who that's it. Very very loaded quiz. How yeah

01:57:31.620 | Like what are the different trajectories you see?

01:57:33.760 | Okay, how does each one win in your view if one wins or the other one wins what happened? Interestingly, they're actually

01:57:41.540 | very similar in size despite the fact that

01:57:43.700 | George fought a welterweight and could be

01:57:46.340 | Fought it lightweight if you actually see them stand next to each other the of similar height could be actually a little more thick set

01:57:53.440 | Yeah, he's actually heavier than you walking around

01:57:56.620 | George walked around most of his career between 188 and 191 pounds and

01:58:03.540 | So could be actually would ironically have a kind of size and strength advantage

01:58:09.780 | Despite being in the lighter weight division

01:58:11.660 | That's been the general trend as MMA has grown is that athletes will come further down and wait to make weight divisions

01:58:19.540 | I

01:58:23.220 | Believe that George has the best takedowns in history in the open in the cage

01:58:29.860 | Khabib was his great strength was using the fence to facilitate takedowns

01:58:38.580 | Joe

01:58:39.660 | Khabib's other great strength was not only his ability to take people down but to keep people down for extended periods of time

01:58:46.180 | both of them were

01:58:48.580 | Powerful strikers on the ground and could do terrible damage to opponents on the floor. So they're both very similar in that regard

01:58:57.580 | Khabib was mostly a

01:59:00.620 | Puncher from the back George is mostly an elbow from the front

01:59:04.700 | But both of them could lay waste to opponents with strikes on the floor

01:59:09.180 | Both of them were highly competent with submissions on the ground that they weren't submission specialists in the sense of someone like Gordon Ryan, but

01:59:17.620 | they were

01:59:20.020 | certainly

01:59:21.940 | No slouches with submission holds

01:59:23.940 | Yes, it's a fascinating idea so it's almost like who gets the first takedown

01:59:30.900 | Yeah, I do believe that

01:59:33.460 | They could probably stand up on each other. I don't think either one of them would be able to hold the other down for a whole round

01:59:40.780 | Both of them are notoriously difficult people to hold down

01:59:45.220 | So I don't think that whoever won the first takedown wins the match. I don't think it's like that

01:59:49.940 | I do believe that George would hold a decisive advantage in striking and distance management

01:59:58.100 | the few times that could be did look shaky is

02:00:01.020 | when he

02:00:03.220 | Khabib was either advancing forward menacingly, but when he had to fight moving backwards

02:00:09.000 | There was a definite asymmetry between his ability to fight going forwards

02:00:13.300 | Which is very good and his ability to fight going backwards, which was noticeably

02:00:16.900 | weaker

02:00:19.300 | George would often fight both forwards and backwards and was the Tiago Elvis fight you most of the standing time

02:00:26.620 | Yeah, it was was going backwards

02:00:28.620 | That's probably there was the single biggest difference between the two athletes and skill level would be in the standing position

02:00:37.020 | on the ground

02:00:39.980 | Khabib slight edge and takedowns on the fence George slight edge and takedowns in the center

02:00:47.060 | Ability to inflict damage on the floor roughly equal ability to fight off the back roughly equal

02:00:54.900 | Ability to stand up from bottom roughly equal. It's a very very hard match

02:00:58.460 | in

02:01:00.340 | terms of the biggest

02:01:02.340 | Difference in skill level is going to be in a standing position. And so it would come down to

02:01:06.500 | That doesn't necessarily mean that could be would lose in the standing position

02:01:11.100 | he might just push it to the fence and just use match tactics where he

02:01:15.020 | Kept a fight on the fence for significant periods of time

02:01:20.660 | And you can win rounds in that fashion, so it's a match that could go either way both of them are

02:01:25.980 | Absolutely the best that you'll ever see I've always believed the three greatest mixed martial artists

02:01:30.980 | I've ever seen in my life for George St. Pierre could be even know when we get off and John Jones

02:01:35.380 | The three of them have some interesting similarities and differences all three

02:01:41.420 | Beat every single person they ever faced

02:01:46.140 | I I know John Jones officially has a loss by DQ, but no one believes that was a loss

02:01:52.660 | George does have two losses, but he

02:01:56.740 | Defeated both athletes decisively in rematches could be did it by having no losses

02:02:03.740 | Interestingly all three athletes have at least one match which is controversial in terms of who won and who lost

02:02:12.940 | John Jones has had several matches which could have gone either way on the judges scorecard Khabib's

02:02:18.840 | Match against Clayson T. Bell could have gone either way

02:02:22.460 | George's match with Hendricks was could have gone either way

02:02:26.540 | They all had matches that they won which people would dispute the outcome so that was a similarity between the three of them

02:02:32.980 | all three of them

02:02:36.340 | Have had the ability

02:02:39.620 | To dominate the direction of fights when they want it to go down it goes down when they don't want it to go down

02:02:45.160 | It doesn't

02:02:47.160 | That's why I put such a heavy emphasis on that idea that

02:02:50.220 | Mixed martial arts champion must be able to determine the direction of a fight. It's the single most important attribute that they all must have

02:02:57.620 | As to which of the three is the best it's going to come down to criteria

02:03:03.540 | You can't pull them apart the

02:03:07.660 | Which answer you give as to which of those three is the greatest of all time will come down to the criteria that you use

02:03:13.100 | Okay, is it being undefeated?

02:03:15.700 | Is it the amount of time was that the quality of the opponents that they had if you do it by quality of opponents

02:03:22.700 | I think you probably have to give it to George if you do it by

02:03:25.860 | Measured dominance through not being defeated and it has to go to compete

02:03:31.100 | Arguably you could say the same with John Jones since his one

02:03:36.780 | losses

02:03:38.780 | By DQ

02:03:40.660 | But then you could also say the last three or four fights that John's head haven't been the same measure of dominance as we saw

02:03:46.820 | previously so ultimately you've got those three guys in my opinion and

02:03:51.380 | Which one you choose will come down to who it says more about who you are as a viewer than it does about?

02:03:57.740 | The respective level of the athletes you could throw a blanket over them. The three of them are just that good and

02:04:05.100 | And which one you select will probably say more about who you are as a viewer than it does about them as athletes

02:04:11.700 | The goat is not even born

02:04:16.660 | because the generation

02:04:19.660 | That is present

02:04:22.540 | benefit of a huge advantage

02:04:24.940 | they have knowledge technology that we didn't have before and

02:04:29.260 | We had the knowledge that the other generation did not have before

02:04:34.860 | but I

02:04:36.540 | Believe the best the goat is not even born yet as good as they are today

02:04:40.700 | I think you in sport where you can measure the performance

02:04:44.660 | track and field

02:04:46.940 | Olympic lifting you can you know someone is

02:04:49.500 | Better than the other one because you can measure the performance fighting. It's all subjective

02:04:54.260 | we always debate of who would win but

02:04:58.100 | 10 the tendency in sport is

02:05:01.700 | That

02:05:02.860 | Performance get better. I don't think it's because the athlete necessarily get better. It's because they have access to better technology knowledge and

02:05:09.620 | They learn from their predecessor

02:05:12.340 | As long as that knowledge is transferred forward

02:05:15.700 | Something tells me that the greatest of all time lived a few thousand years ago and it's forgotten some of the greatest warriors

02:05:22.980 | They can imagine the kind of grapplers. We just the history didn't record them

02:05:28.660 | Mmm, there could have been small tribes where they developed many UFC's

02:05:33.100 | And they've developed the kind of things we you have to think of like the Gracie's

02:05:38.100 | Just a small family was able to develop so much so quickly

02:05:41.500 | I I often as this this discussion with Johnny

02:05:45.580 | I think it's very important like to mention I ask you it very several time like what would happen if we would take a

02:05:53.420 | Fighter of modern days facing the champion of pancreas. This is an interesting question

02:05:59.020 | You brought something incredible a good point and people don't don't realize it, you know, yeah

02:06:04.940 | no, I think one of the great tragedies of martial arts history is our loss of

02:06:11.340 | The historical records of pancreas like most of what we know is

02:06:17.740 | From what I'm told is actually lost in the fires of the Library of Alexandria

02:06:21.820 | And we're left with only a pitiful amount of information on

02:06:25.820 | pancreas images

02:06:28.180 | But what we do know is that there was a very large

02:06:32.660 | Participation in the sport and that it was widely considered the most popular

02:06:38.420 | Sport in the ancient Olympics and that it was represented in the ancient Olympics for many hundreds of years

02:06:45.660 | Plus a long period of time before its introduction into the ancient Olympics. And so the development time

02:06:51.820 | That it may have had would have been very significant it

02:06:55.580 | As far as we know most of the development would have been in the major Greek city-states for

02:07:02.980 | literally hundreds of years of development

02:07:06.180 | Given its prestige as an Olympic sport then the best athletes would have been doing it

02:07:11.540 | Some of the sharpest minds that we know of in human history were involved in the sport

02:07:17.620 | Plato the great philosopher

02:07:20.860 | Was a pancreas in his youth in fact his name Plato is a nickname

02:07:28.060 | Platos is like plate. It means broad or big guy like the big guy and

02:07:34.340 | He spoke often about pancreas and in his written works

02:07:41.220 | Imagine people with the intelligence of Plato

02:07:44.420 | thinking about

02:07:47.820 | Grappling technique for hundreds of years in the most popular Olympic sport of that time

02:07:52.260 | significant numbers of people with

02:07:55.380 | Financial backing as city-states put great prestige upon an Olympic success

02:07:59.580 | They would have funneled athletes in

02:08:01.580 | Bought in the best coaches and they had that for many hundreds of years like it's quite conceivable

02:08:07.700 | that the best pancreas athletes were of the absolute first quality and

02:08:12.700 | It it's it's so sad to think we'll never know what was their skill level and

02:08:19.780 | It's interesting to think about what kind of techniques had developed whether

02:08:24.060 | There's stuff we haven't discovered yet in class. You're talking about the most effective

02:08:29.020 | Take down strategy in wrestling and collegiate wrestling. So maybe let me ask first because we offline talked about this, too

02:08:36.180 | What is the highest percentage submission in grappling overall?

02:08:40.380 | You have to go with the rear naked strangle strangles from the back

02:08:44.120 | If you look at most tournaments most rule sets it has success across all rule sets

02:08:50.780 | all weight divisions all body types

02:08:54.540 | It doesn't require any kind of specific physical advantage such as height

02:08:59.860 | in order to be effective

02:09:02.820 | It works equally well in both fighting and grappling

02:09:05.780 | It will work regardless of how physically and mentally tough your opponent is

02:09:11.860 | Okay, a heel hook is a very high percentage technique in in modern-day competition

02:09:17.220 | But if your opponent simply makes up his mind that he's not going to tap and is willing to take the physical damage

02:09:23.840 | it won't result in the end of a match a stranglehold by

02:09:29.100 | Contrast will always in the match regardless of your opponent's mental toughness

02:09:32.900 | so

02:09:34.580 | I believe it's fair to say that at the end of the day the single most high percentage

02:09:39.420 | method of

02:09:41.740 | Submitting people and grappling is a renegade strength. So when you look at an athlete maybe Gordon you could speak to this like what?

02:09:47.180 | What's the best?

02:09:49.420 | You mentioned Gary with the guillotine. What's the best submission to really invest in is it the rear naked choke?

02:09:56.180 | To really invest your development like understanding the entirety of the system that leads into that

02:10:01.100 | I think that I mean you have to do them all obviously

02:10:03.940 | But if I had like one submission that I would only one submission I could pick for the rest of my life

02:10:08.340 | It would definitely be a rear naked

02:10:10.340 | Can you explain maybe some of the actual technical details of why that's the case?

02:10:15.460 | well as John spoke about they're different in joint locks, whereas

02:10:19.860 | You don't have to tap you can just let your leg break and then keep going with the strangled is

02:10:25.700 | there's no

02:10:27.460 | There's none of that and then it's just an inherent

02:10:30.180 | Advantage you have being behind someone

02:10:33.300 | Whereas if you go for an arm bar you stop you start from top mount and you're facing the guy then you put them down

02:10:38.500 | And you're not directly behind them with leg locks. You're facing the guy

02:10:41.520 | Whereas when you're on someone's back you have them in a pin where you can your chest the back

02:10:46.460 | You have a body triangle and you you're paying the guy in place. He can't explode out

02:10:50.020 | He can't grease his way out most of the time

02:10:52.220 | And there's an inherent advantage you have being behind them due to the fact that we're poorly set up to deal with threats behind us

02:10:59.140 | So would you say that's the most dominant position you get to like more than mount?

02:11:04.540 | More than yeah sack control. I think if you look at most matches historically

02:11:11.260 | Most guys who get stuck in positions for long amounts of time are guys that they're back taken

02:11:17.020 | If you get an explosive guy from bottom mounting and bridge and he can off-balance you and lock half guard

02:11:22.660 | Maybe and then work back to guard but someone locks a body triangle on your back

02:11:25.940 | That's where you see most guys getting pinned in place for long amounts of time

02:11:29.700 | Was uh was the body triangle like a well understood thing?

02:11:34.740 | was that an invention at some point like as a system as a

02:11:41.460 | Perhaps some of your listeners can correct me on this

02:11:43.820 | But I believe there was a technique banned in judo called doji main

02:11:47.680 | Which involved crossing feet or locking a triangle around the abdominals from the back and it was banned in judo

02:11:54.700 | I believe because of intestinal injuries which occurred in the early developmental days of

02:12:01.540 | judo and

02:12:03.820 | In the modern era when I first began jiu-jitsu body triangles were relatively rare. They were not a standard part of class

02:12:11.100 | and

02:12:13.460 | Sometime around the late 1990s early 2000s people started to realize that this is a stronger method of control

02:12:19.940 | It it greatly increases the amount of control you have over your opponents hips and torso over regular hooks

02:12:29.820 | It's not for all athletes. It's difficult for most people who are of shorter thicker statute to

02:12:36.540 | Employ on on big people if your opponent is very broadly built through the stomach. It's almost impossible to apply and

02:12:43.300 | So because it can't be applied by all people it tends not to be taught much at beginner level

02:12:49.500 | so as a result, it was always seen as a

02:12:54.740 | Kind of a specialist move for taller athletes at a higher level of competition rather than a broad-based move for everyone

02:13:01.580 | Or every body type in every class to employ so it just didn't get emphasized that much but in top level competition now

02:13:08.500 | I think you would see that it's very apparent that the vast majority of athletes whenever they have the opportunity or a choice between

02:13:15.780 | body triangle and

02:13:17.860 | Regular rear mounts the majority of modern athletes would choose a body triangle

02:13:22.420 | So we also had this conversation about wrestling maybe Georgie can comment on like what's the the highest percentage?

02:13:29.260 | Not statistically speaking perhaps that's also interesting as John talked about but just for you in terms of mastery of a takedown

02:13:37.020 | What's what's the best way to take it down a human being?

02:13:40.100 | in wrestling well I

02:13:42.900 | Personally for me it depends for every fighter are different. They have a different set of skill

02:13:50.420 | For me I when I look someone

02:13:53.180 | Want to bring down a tree a big strong high tree

02:13:57.940 | He cut it from the base

02:14:00.660 | So the legs that that's what we stand on

02:14:04.100 | So it was to attack the leg, but is it single leg double leg is it we talked about like?

02:14:09.820 | Well, there's also the the John Smith low single. Yeah, actually I don't even know if that's applicable for digits at all

02:14:17.700 | You can use it, but it runs at the problem with submission holds

02:14:20.900 | Yeah

02:14:21.180 | It's it's not impossible to use but without shoes and in a situation where there's a whole plethora of submission holds in the scoring

02:14:28.940 | that

02:14:30.620 | It's a little more difficult to use you know

02:14:32.620 | It is interesting something being a high percentage in terms of effectiveness tells a story

02:14:38.660 | You're saying that every athlete is different, but if it's more effective for most people I

02:14:44.740 | Mean it's interesting. It's it's interesting what John talked about is that the highest percentage thing is actually

02:14:51.960 | In collegiate wrestling that he was talking about is on the defensive side so blocking a takedown and spinning around to the to the back

02:15:01.140 | So that's an interesting idea then also. There's all of these kind of going in for a singleness switching to a double or

02:15:10.100 | Wizard position and doing knee tap like there's all these kinds of combinations that seem to be

02:15:15.100 | Effective when you look at the statistics, and it seems like there's maybe it's a scientific way of thinking, but it seems like there's

02:15:21.100 | Some conclusion to be drawn there. Oh, yeah, I believe you need to the high percentage move. There's a reason why they works

02:15:29.060 | I think it's it's made for a bigger amount of people

02:15:33.540 | For example I one of my main

02:15:36.820 | strength

02:15:39.020 | Athletic strength is I'm an explosive person so I'll use technique that are explosive if I got a single leg my

02:15:45.640 | One of my thing I like to do is to go for the double power double

02:15:49.380 | but for

02:15:51.780 | Someone else we got for example in a single leg position. Maybe he likes like body true better

02:15:58.540 | He's more a Greco guy like so or he's a judo guy. He's gonna go for something something else so

02:16:04.260 | But there is move that are I would say like you just mentioned are universal like statistically speaking. They're

02:16:10.780 | The highest percentage move that works for pretty much everybody everybody pretty much can do a

02:16:17.120 | Adeka Jimmy, you know it's very easy

02:16:19.900 | But it's not everybody that can lock a triangle with their legs

02:16:24.500 | So so those move like a real naked choke and I got Jimmy's the highest percentage move because it's maybe more accessible

02:16:33.380 | It's accessible for a bigger range of yeah based on the physical characteristics of the people do you draw on your wisdom from these high?

02:16:39.740 | Percentages John for like in terms of what to focus on yeah, absolutely

02:16:44.700 | Jiu-jitsu has an ocean of moves and you can get lost on that ocean

02:16:49.420 | You can drift for a long period of time and and that was very little to show for it

02:16:54.100 | so my whole thing is focus we only live one lifetime and

02:16:57.860 | Your training lifetime is even shorter than your actual lifetime

02:17:01.940 | So in that time I must die on the mat

02:17:06.020 | I I put a very high value on

02:17:14.500 | Choosing what I believe to be the most high percentage

02:17:18.540 | Moves and putting an extraordinary amount of focus on them

02:17:23.260 | The only problem is that in one generation a move which can be considered low percentage might actually turn out to be high

02:17:30.780 | Percentage in another generation for example

02:17:32.780 | we talked earlier about leg locks when I was first out of judice if they were considered the ultimate low percentage move and

02:17:38.820 | a big part of my career has been convincing people that in fact that was

02:17:43.660 | That was incorrect that they can be a high percentage move if we just change our approach to them

02:17:48.700 | So we can't just follow tradition and say oh, this is low percentage. This is a high percentage. It has to be part of a

02:17:58.220 | fairly systematic study where you

02:18:00.300 | investigate

02:18:02.180 | What are the reasons why it's high percentage or low percentage with regards to takedowns?

02:18:08.460 | If you look at what we can consider the most high percentage takedowns

02:18:13.780 | If you're in front of someone the single most high percentage way of taking them down is to get a hold of both of their legs

02:18:19.100 | And push them backwards

02:18:20.740 | Okay, if you get a hold of one of their legs and put a force on them

02:18:24.060 | They can use their other leg to defend themselves and hop around and funk their way out of takedowns and cause all kinds of problems

02:18:29.820 | For you. I don't care how athletic your opponent is if you get a hold a firm grip of

02:18:34.180 | Both of his legs and start pushing him backwards. He's gonna fall down to his butt now

02:18:38.740 | He might be able to recover from there, but he will fall down

02:18:41.140 | Even easier than that is to be behind someone

02:18:44.820 | Takedowns from in front of someone are difficult you go right into their hips their head their hands

02:18:50.860 | You go into all their defensive weapons if you're already behind someone and you're doing what in America they were referred to as a mat return

02:18:57.460 | This is significantly easier than taking someone down from the front if you have control of their head in a front headlock position

02:19:04.860 | You've already closed distance on your opponent. You already have close contact. You don't have to worry about shooting anymore

02:19:11.140 | There's no sprawl out of that. You don't have to worry about guillotines Kimura's or the

02:19:15.660 | Standard defenses those will intrinsically be easier takedowns out of front headlock

02:19:20.100 | And so if we're going to talk about high percentage technique

02:19:22.780 | I always go back to the mechanics of it rather than just historical tradition because historical tradition can be wrong

02:19:29.700 | It was wrong about leg locks. It could be wrong about other things too. So my primary thing is okay. Talk to me about mechanics

02:19:36.920 | That's what ultimately is going to determine whether something is high percentage or not

02:19:42.700 | Gordon pointed out earlier that when you're behind someone you have innate physical

02:19:46.180 | Advantages over the other guy the human the human body is set up entirely to defend to defend threats from the front

02:19:52.900 | We are poorly adapted to defending threats from the rear. We don't have eyes in the back of our head

02:19:58.740 | We can't apply pushing strength backwards

02:20:00.740 | If you get behind someone

02:20:02.780 | Takedowns are ten times easier from behind someone than they are when you're in front of someone if

02:20:07.020 | You have to take someone down from the front get a hold of both of their legs

02:20:11.500 | If you can get a hold of both of the legs and a part of pushing force, you will almost always knock them down

02:20:16.260 | if

02:20:19.100 | you can get a hold of their head and

02:20:21.100 | Work takedowns from there again

02:20:23.460 | It's much easier because most of their defensive apparatus has been taken away from them before the takedown even begins

02:20:29.540 | And so for me the most high percentage takedowns will always be from the front double legs

02:20:35.280 | From any takedown from the back is going to be significantly easier than any takedown from the front

02:20:40.180 | so all manner of mat return takedowns are going to be very high percentage and

02:20:45.140 | Takedowns done out of situations where the opponent is broken down in front of you

02:20:49.860 | And you have either front headlock or front chest wrap position are going to be significantly easier than takedowns from the open

02:20:55.460 | Of course you have to consider the full

02:20:58.660 | Spectrum of mechanics involved here. It's possible that an outside low single leading to a double leg is much higher percentage

02:21:06.700 | I think there's a lot of chain wrestling yet, you know that needs to be considered as a possibility

02:21:12.140 | Maybe a straight on double and part of this cultural too

02:21:14.780 | Are people afraid of this kind of thing that they came to be the case with leg locks are people aware of this?

02:21:20.900 | are they worried about this are they training for this to defend this and

02:21:25.140 | And then this opponent specific, of course that

02:21:28.460 | You know with Jordan Burroughs people are preparing for the double which is why he had to develops a whole other kinds of different stuff

02:21:36.380 | And then the head to all the different controls all the different ties within the rule set

02:21:41.500 | And that's where it's so fascinating to see the effect of rule set on all of this judo over the past

02:21:47.380 | I think 20 years went through this every Olympics different changes to the rule set like fundamentally different

02:21:54.340 | In terms of what's allowed to grip whether you're allowed to touch the legs at all. That was a big one in

02:21:59.100 | 2012 I think

02:22:01.860 | And that changes the sport completely and so interesting

02:22:04.700 | It's so interesting to watch how a tiny change in the rule can change the sport

02:22:09.740 | at the highest when you're talking about people competing at the highest level and

02:22:13.940 | the cool thing there is

02:22:16.820 | The rule change happens on a scale of every four years

02:22:20.740 | So you get to see people that are at the top of their game have to like recompute

02:22:26.820 | So it's not like you have a new generation of people coming up with the rules. I have to figure out shit

02:22:31.540 | You're not allowed to like it's the equivalent of saying you're not allowed to kick anymore in MMA

02:22:36.740 | Because you were not allowed to grab legs anymore in judo

02:22:40.540 | interestingly if you look at the

02:22:43.540 | case of judo if you look at the world rankings of

02:22:47.900 | athletes when they went through one of the most

02:22:51.620 | Significant rule changes in judo history where they banned any form of grabbing the legs

02:22:58.420 | The ranking of athletes didn't change much

02:23:01.340 | Yeah that tells you that there there's a reason why those guys are at the top

02:23:06.460 | Yeah, and it doesn't have to do that. There's specific to a rule set

02:23:09.900 | Yeah, think about that in terms of imagine for example in mixed martial arts if they just said hey

02:23:16.500 | Starting next week instead of having three five-minute rounds. It's gonna be 15 minutes straight

02:23:22.340 | That would massively change the preparation of the athletes

02:23:27.500 | It's a different game at that point and judo literally was a different game before 2010 and after 2010 and yet

02:23:34.260 | The international rankings didn't really change that much the countries that were dominant before

02:23:40.060 | Remain dominant the athletes that remain before largely remain the same

02:23:45.740 | you would think was such a massive change all the rankings would have been thrown upside down, but they weren't and

02:23:53.580 | Again, it goes back to this idea that there's a reason why the guys at the top are at the top

02:23:58.700 | And now for something completely different we talked about aliens earlier. Yeah, so George brought up Bob Lazar. I

02:24:06.060 | Will likely probably talk to Bob Lazar on this podcast and then

02:24:11.380 | And then John had this a skeptical look on his face about Bob out aliens. So let me ask John and Gordon

02:24:20.780 | Do you think there's intelligent alien civilizations out there in the universe outside of our own? The universe is?

02:24:28.060 | unimaginably large the idea that we are the only life forms and a cosmos as large as this is

02:24:35.460 | I think naive and foolish

02:24:39.460 | There's a very high likelihood that if life could evolve on this planet that it could have done

02:24:47.020 | So on many many other planets around the around the cosmos

02:24:51.100 | I think anyone who puts even a moment's thought into this would realize that there's almost certainly other forms of life out there

02:24:58.860 | the real question with regards the alien community is

02:25:03.300 | Have they got here and now they circling our planet and little silver saucers and making observations and periodically

02:25:11.940 | Stealing people for experimentation purposes. There's a whole silver saucers. It could be different other color saucers

02:25:18.620 | And that question I'm I'm not at all convinced. No, I didn't recently

02:25:24.620 | Navy footage has come out showing

02:25:28.340 | Some very interesting phenomena if you talk to almost any experienced pilot

02:25:33.800 | They will tell you they've seen things in the upper atmosphere that are very difficult to explain

02:25:39.420 | I'll be the first one to agree with you on this. There are some things out there that are extremely difficult to explain

02:25:44.460 | It's literally UFOs

02:25:46.460 | Unidentified. Yeah, I mean we just don't know what they are

02:25:49.020 | but to go from the idea that there's things out there that we don't understand to

02:25:53.760 | this

02:25:55.940 | like little creatures running around and

02:25:58.940 | and these somehow exist I

02:26:02.180 | Just reserve judgment. I just say I'm agnostic about these things. I think it's possible but

02:26:08.700 | All the evidence that I've been shown so far was insufficient to come to any kind of definite conclusions until

02:26:14.940 | Aliens land in Central Park on Tuesday afternoon at 3 p.m. And get out with little alien ray guns and start shooting people

02:26:22.580 | I don't believe in

02:26:24.180 | Many of the stories that get told well, what about if it's not little aliens with ray guns

02:26:29.700 | But something very different very very difficult to detect for us humans. That's very human

02:26:34.580 | Then at that point it's a it's a fascinating idea and it's certainly possible but show me the evidence

02:26:39.820 | All right, what about you Gordon

02:26:43.500 | Do you do you look at the cosmos and ponder the stars?

02:26:47.420 | Often I think it's fair points John raised

02:26:51.160 | something really interesting I saw the other day was a

02:26:53.900 | someone posted like if an alien organ or civilization

02:26:59.580 | 65 million light-years away somehow managed to look at earth

02:27:04.260 | They would theoretically see the dinosaurs because there's 65 million light-years away. So like imagine us looking at

02:27:10.660 | Galaxies that are 100 million light-years away. That's a hundred million years ago. You have no idea what it looks like now

02:27:15.840 | So that's what's super interesting to me about it

02:27:18.100 | yeah, the the expanse is huge and so much cool stuff could be going out there and

02:27:24.780 | The scary thing of course is if they haven't visited us yet

02:27:29.700 | the

02:27:31.300 | there has to be a good reason for it and

02:27:33.300 | The set of scary reasons of all the fact that they maybe once it gets sufficiently advanced in your development

02:27:40.380 | You destroy yourself naturally as humans seem to be approaching now

02:27:43.940 | We more and more have the tools to destroy ourselves completely

02:27:47.700 | in terms of our weapon systems

02:27:50.260 | and we're developing them more and more and they're becoming better and better and

02:27:55.340 | Then we're starting to get angry and angrier on Twitter and Instagram at each other. Oh

02:27:59.460 | Those are good points. You're raising

02:28:02.500 | History has taught us that

02:28:05.500 | Everything that lives one day will die. So we will perish one day. Yeah

02:28:10.300 | it's also just the the sheer difficulty of

02:28:13.580 | of

02:28:16.580 | Travel through space like space is an unimaginably inhospitable environment and

02:28:23.300 | to the best of our knowledge

02:28:25.300 | This even the theoretical speeds that we can attain in space even if we could

02:28:32.500 | Travel at the speed of light. We're not even remotely close to that

02:28:36.900 | Still the distances that need to be traveled to get to even relatively close solar systems

02:28:43.180 | very very long if you look at

02:28:46.860 | Astronauts who have spent significant amounts of time in space just orbiting the earth it has severe health effects on them

02:28:54.300 | We just not built for space. We're supposed to be in a gravitational environment

02:28:58.340 | But we you're referring to your biological meat bag that's containing the essence of the mind. That is John Donahue

02:29:06.180 | Maybe we can transfer the mind

02:29:08.180 | alone

02:29:10.260 | The bag the meat the meat bag is not designed for space but maybe the car again

02:29:14.580 | This is all that's of the mind. It's it's possible. But what do you think of concrete evidence? You folks who like difficult things?

02:29:22.340 | What do you think about Elon Musk going to colonize Mars

02:29:27.420 | is this something you find an interesting or a

02:29:32.220 | Aimless pursuit I think it's a must or a salvation

02:29:39.660 | We need to leave at some point a planet because historically in the past we know that we've been bombarded by asteroid

02:29:46.180 | volcano

02:29:47.980 | They're crazy things happen here. It's very unstable. You know, we if you look at it to

02:29:52.900 | Lifetime of a human being it's nothing but just look 12,000 years ago what happened, you know

02:29:58.860 | So there is cataclysm that happened all the time. It's very unstable

02:30:03.420 | So if we want to survive as a species

02:30:06.020 | I think it's it's we need to get out to be able to get out and spread our seed

02:30:11.460 | so these are the early steps on a really long journey, but is there something about like

02:30:16.260 | You know, we don't get that exploration from most of modern society, you know the kind of exploring that people did throughout the centuries of

02:30:24.820 | you know coming to the

02:30:27.340 | North America just throughout we were shrouded in physical uncertainty of what's out there

02:30:33.180 | And now we get to do the same kind of exploration with Mars

02:30:36.900 | Is there so I mean is there any aspect of you that wants to travel out to space that wants to travel to Mars?

02:30:44.140 | There you know, the goal is to allow civilians to travel

02:30:48.220 | Perhaps in our lifetime

02:30:50.940 | Meaning affordably you can do so now unaffordably

02:30:53.740 | Traveling to space and traveling to Mars are two different things. I think I would like to travel into space

02:31:00.580 | I don't know if I would like to travel all the way to Mars because of the risks involved

02:31:04.700 | just cuz

02:31:07.700 | Boring. Is there some part of you that enjoys?

02:31:10.380 | I think that if I was like towards the end of my life

02:31:12.380 | I would like to travel to Mars just just just the experience. Yeah, but if I go to Mars, I'm not coming back

02:31:17.540 | I think that's it

02:31:19.300 | one-way ticket

02:31:21.300 | Hey with the technology we have now maybe in the future

02:31:24.180 | Maybe our the children of our children will will be able to to experience that to go to well the weekend

02:31:31.980 | Well, the whole design of the Starship that the SpaceX is working on it's supposed to come back

02:31:39.500 | It's supposed to be reusable. So it's not it's not a one-way ticket. That's the whole point

02:31:44.580 | It's always going back and forth back and forth. What's the time frame between two planets like to travel from?

02:31:51.580 | I think the current thing you'd be stuck on Mars for two years

02:31:54.900 | But how long does it take to get from Earth to Mars? Oh, it's pretty I'm not exactly sure but it's pretty quick

02:32:00.300 | It's pretty quick. Like I don't know and the scale of months not scale of years

02:32:05.580 | You might not be healthy when you come back, you know all the astronaut they experience health issues

02:32:10.420 | You know, they lose a lot of muscle mass bone density. So yeah, I don't think the technology is good right now. I mean

02:32:17.260 | Let's say that it is I would love to be doing it for a weekend if it's safe

02:32:22.300 | I would be the first one to do a professional fighter who sacrifices body

02:32:27.180 | Something so there's some sacrifice we do in life, right? I would don't want to be the first

02:32:32.460 | I wouldn't want to I leave the other one, but when I know it's it's safe

02:32:36.120 | Okay, count me in. So one of the things that people say and this is something I wonder about is

02:32:40.660 | It's like having children or something

02:32:42.780 | Once you see once you're out in space and you look out and you see Earth you look back at Earth

02:32:47.780 | That's an experience. It's unlike anything else like you can't replicate it here

02:32:52.020 | Is to look back at that like blue dot and that nerve-wracking

02:32:57.900 | You see like Earth disappear into the distance

02:33:02.780 | Yeah

02:33:03.560 | Yeah

02:33:04.260 | Disappear into the distance and then you get to actually stand on Mars and see and just to look you're standing on the ground and

02:33:11.060 | You're looking out and you see the planet from which you came and where you might not be coming back

02:33:16.180 | but there's a challenge to the whole thing where the risk is tremendous and

02:33:19.980 | I don't know. I find that risk really compelling for some reason but that could be just the exploration

02:33:26.600 | Look, I guess that's a genetic thing to how much do you want to explore?

02:33:30.040 | There's a sense though in which even in the best-case scenario

02:33:34.180 | where they did get the technology to whisk you to Mars and if in a

02:33:39.300 | fairly short period of time it's kind of an inauthentic sense of exploration because

02:33:45.220 | your participation in it is

02:33:47.780 | no more exciting than your

02:33:51.380 | Participation in an airline flight to a foreign country. You're basically you didn't have anything to do with the creation of the vessel

02:33:58.980 | You're not in command of the vessel. You're not in any way shape or form important to the mission

02:34:04.700 | You're just a person sitting in a passenger seat and you get off in a destination the same way you would if you flew to

02:34:09.940 | Singapore or London or someplace like that

02:34:11.940 | Well, there's a hierarchy of there's a leadership and then there's a bunch of people and they all have roles

02:34:17.260 | You don't go to Mars without having a subscript set to go to be you've made it sound like space tourism

02:34:23.280 | Where you just yeah, I don't I think it's a long time before you have space tourism to Mars. We have nothing to contribute

02:34:30.660 | Okay, like you will have to tell what you do you go through like a training program you go training program

02:34:35.220 | And then there's there's technical things you'll be contributing so there they would bring people

02:34:39.540 | You know in terms of agriculture, I don't know. Okay, so this is this is better

02:34:43.820 | This sounds like they're actual they're more like explorers. Like if you talked before about

02:34:47.940 | Explorers and human history where Magellan sets off on his boat and every person on the boat had a specific function

02:34:54.940 | They were they were all

02:34:56.820 | Into the mission in a very authentic fashion if they weren't on the boat the performance of the crew would somehow suffer

02:35:02.180 | So that this sounds much better and with just would like with Magellan. I think most of the crew died a

02:35:08.580 | significant number did yeah

02:35:11.180 | And from

02:35:14.100 | Yeah from bacteria, I mean from things that are unexpected and so on and if we discover life on Mars

02:35:20.100 | I mean who knows what that entails because that's like a manned mission to Mars

02:35:25.300 | would likely be very driven by the research to do all the kind of

02:35:28.860 | Exploration required to find life now from

02:35:33.840 | Mr. Musk's

02:35:37.020 | Point of view as a developer presumably there has to be some kind of financial incentive here, too

02:35:41.740 | Is there some kind of financial benefit to Mars missions is is?

02:35:47.620 | presumably

02:35:51.060 | There wouldn't be that many people on earth that could afford a ticket to pay for the kind of research and development that would require

02:35:57.300 | This is there some kind of mining on Mars of minerals that would be useful

02:36:01.540 | I think there's a lot of answers to this

02:36:03.220 | But the only honest answer is the one with it looks back into human history where we did a lot of things just because we

02:36:08.500 | could a lot of hard things just because we could and that led to a lot of

02:36:13.660 | Innovation that ultimately made our life better. So this is more. This is why you have NASA

02:36:18.980 | This is why you have government organizations. Like what's the purpose of NASA NASA would answer that by saying, okay. Well, we're helping

02:36:25.580 | Launch satellites up there all that. They'll have a bunch of answers. But the reality is the programs

02:36:32.100 | were

02:36:34.100 | funded in large part by our desire to explore the unknown and

02:36:38.100 | There's some aspect to which we have to all invest into that because historically speaking

02:36:44.420 | That has produced a lot of cool things along the way. They were totally unexpected like but NASA is funded by public funding the taxpayer

02:36:52.580 | How is mr. Musk going to fund this? Well currently most of the funding was the SpaceX is NASA giving

02:37:01.000 | money

02:37:02.860 | to

02:37:04.140 | So they're making a competition who can who can get our satellites. We need to go to

02:37:09.380 | You know was for the space station to

02:37:14.180 | Resupply the space station or we need to launch satellites up who's going to carry those quote-unquote payloads

02:37:19.620 | They just need so NASA's paying whoever the heck wants to

02:37:22.900 | get

02:37:25.100 | Kilograms of thing up into space

02:37:27.820 | Why did this is NASA's specialty? Why did they just give up on that?

02:37:32.220 | Well, they why they realized where mr

02:37:35.020 | Musk came along and then Bezos and others that said we can do it for one-tenth the price

02:37:41.100 | So why did the why should the taxpayers pay for the why don't you NASA do what you do?

02:37:46.020 | Well, which is like test out cutting-edge stuff make sure they're safe. And now that we've developed

02:37:53.060 | a car

02:37:55.500 | Let us let us UPS and FedEx take care of

02:37:58.780 | Doing this at scale doing it cheaper doing it better

02:38:01.740 | I mean, that's the argument and NASA took what they realize is it took way way too long to do stuff

02:38:08.100 | when you're investing millions as billions of dollars into a project the

02:38:13.060 | Debris rocker see builds up and the conservatism builds up to where you're I mean, you really have to test everything out

02:38:20.260 | So projects take years and then you have somebody like Elon Musk coming along and says well, let's do

02:38:25.500 | launches every

02:38:27.460 | Every week and as opposed to just throwing away the rocket will reuse the rocket

02:38:32.860 | That was one of the sort of cutting-edge inventions. It's a dumb obvious idea

02:38:38.100 | Like Elon says why do you throw away the place? The equivalent is if you flew a plane every time you threw it away

02:38:44.140 | Why are we every time throwing away the plane?

02:38:46.740 | But NASA's tried that kind of thing with the space shuttle since the 1970s and yes

02:38:51.460 | well, they did that with the space shuttle, but not not at the scale here that it was the space shuttle was seen as this like

02:38:59.100 | Majestic amazing thing that requires a huge amount of investment with the Elon Musk is like no every basic rocket should be reusable

02:39:07.100 | Next cut cost cut cost. Do you do you think like?

02:39:11.260 | The more technology we have the more advanced we become the more

02:39:15.140 | Specialized we need to be like is that for that reason that now they there is different branch like you just explained out now

02:39:22.200 | There's other specializing this but they left, you know other branch. Yeah, there's there's the greater and greater specializations

02:39:28.460 | we build up more stuff, which is fascinating because

02:39:30.820 | Is it making us more?

02:39:34.420 | Dumb in a way. Do you think like like like yeah, I don't know like you you know

02:39:40.380 | But I use a cell phone, but I don't know how to build it up from there

02:39:43.980 | I mean, it's that beta males building up this whole society

02:39:47.700 | because we're this collective intelligence we rely on each other more and more and

02:39:54.060 | it I do also see sort of the rise of conspiracy theories and all those kinds of things because

02:39:59.660 | Like I've been talking to a few folks about flat earth recently it's fascinating it's fascinating

02:40:07.420 | there's a large community of people that believe the earth is flat and

02:40:10.100 | That idea takes hold in this day and age of all the ideas

02:40:14.780 | that's the one that takes hold for a large number of people and I

02:40:19.660 | Think that's a consequence is this this kind of specialization where it's just huge amount of experts

02:40:24.540 | But if you look out into our world and try to reason simply about our existence

02:40:30.100 | We are losing the skills to do that because more and more people are specialized as opposed to general thinkers

02:40:36.220 | We're like extremely good at specific things. Are we capable now to do a robot that is self-aware?

02:40:44.060 | There that's that's one the legged one. I mean

02:40:47.860 | It's self-aware like not self-aware has been listening, but it's not self-aware

02:40:51.780 | But do you think a human being is self-aware or that's a good question?

02:40:56.420 | I mean I ask this question all the time when the robots move. There's a sense of

02:41:01.500 | When they turn on something entered that robot Wow, and when it turns off something left

02:41:09.940 | If they move in a certain kind of way and if they're if they surprise you there's certain elements that

02:41:17.620 | enable us

02:41:19.300 | to see the magic in

02:41:21.300 | In a living being and some of them. I mean we can care we can maybe list them

02:41:26.900 | but it's the ability to surprise you it's the

02:41:30.780 | Ability to make mistakes and learn from them visibly there's a bunch of things that you just I

02:41:38.420 | don't know it just feels like it has the magic of what is a living being and

02:41:44.740 | Which is what humans have and I try to think about how do you replicate that into a machine?

02:41:49.860 | So when you turn it on enough you feel like it dies every time and the reborn so for most machines

02:41:56.740 | We don't feel that way. We don't when we unplug things

02:41:59.380 | We don't feel that way. I don't know why we don't feel that way. That's an interesting question, but I think when

02:42:06.220 | When the robot has certain qualities

02:42:10.580 | like memory

02:42:13.620 | Like ability to recognize you

02:42:15.620 | Yeah, you start to feel like you're turning off an organism

02:42:19.400 | so so whenever I have like the robots that recognize me and

02:42:23.060 | Remember, this is important that all the things we've experienced together

02:42:28.220 | Then it's like holy shit

02:42:30.940 | That's a that's a living thing. But does it feels it feels like a living thing. Does he remember your robot?

02:42:37.540 | Does he remember things that happened before you unplugged in is it like he's sleeping?

02:42:43.740 | Like you wake up or is he like that? So right now it start to zero everything

02:42:48.580 | No, it doesn't start as you remember remembers everything. That's the key every time you like you you unplug Wow

02:42:54.620 | It's storing the storing the memory, but the memories are basic. They're like, okay, we walked around the kitchen and then

02:43:00.700 | You looked at me I mean the memories it's like data it's just it's not like we've experienced it's able to actually

02:43:09.180 | Experience anything deep like we humans can but just the fact of memory

02:43:13.380 | It's like the toaster or the microwave. Don't don't give a shit about me. They don't know me

02:43:20.340 | They don't know me by name. They wouldn't recognize my face as being different from Gordon's

02:43:25.340 | They wouldn't know the difference and they wouldn't remember the microwave currently doesn't remember, you know

02:43:31.780 | The times I've been sad or happy like what food I put into it

02:43:36.260 | it doesn't remember this when I was being a fat ass or what I was being in good shape and all

02:43:41.660 | Just those memories are enough to make you feel when you turn a thing off

02:43:46.100 | It's like shit. That's a living. That's that that's a living thing disappearing. Of course. That's kind of an anthropomorphism

02:43:53.380 | We do to each other

02:43:55.420 | But that's something is you know that that's something that makes me believe it's possible to create

02:44:05.140 | Systems with which we can have a connection that are non-human like similar to dogs and cats and so on

02:44:10.980 | Just makes me and that's what's interesting to me because ultimately I feel like they'll help us understand

02:44:17.020 | ourselves

02:44:19.660 | And maybe practice grappling moves anyway

02:44:22.520 | Well, let me ask the advice question

02:44:29.160 | Now that we're together I've asked I've spoken to John I spoke to George

02:44:34.500 | What what advice would you give to young folks whether we're talking about?

02:44:38.660 | Sport like excelling becoming great at grappling becoming great at fighting

02:44:44.220 | Become a great at whatever sport they take on or life in general whether there may be in high school or in college

02:44:50.380 | What advice would you give them to?

02:44:52.820 | excel at

02:44:55.100 | That thing they take on I don't know if I'm qualified to answer this because I'm only 26

02:45:00.940 | So you said you're at the top. He said you said giving advice to young people

02:45:04.340 | For me, I think the two biggest things are

02:45:07.980 | Find something that you're both talented in and you enjoy

02:45:12.380 | I think that if you enjoy something, but you're terrible at it

02:45:17.180 | It's gonna be hard for you to be successful in life at that given in that given area

02:45:21.460 | And it's going to be hard to do something for long amounts of time

02:45:26.480 | If you're talented at it, but you don't enjoy doing it

02:45:30.900 | it's easy to come in and

02:45:32.900 | Train hard for a month or for two months or for a year

02:45:37.620 | You can be very talented at it

02:45:39.420 | But if you come in it's but it's a different story to come in

02:45:42.420 | Every day for five years in a row for ten years in a row for 15 years in a row

02:45:46.180 | so I think I

02:45:48.460 | think finding something that you're both talented in and

02:45:51.140 | Something you enjoy are probably the two biggest things for me. How do you find the joy in it?

02:45:57.420 | So you've been training insane amount, you know a lot you've been doing it for a long time

02:46:02.220 | Is there is there ways to rediscover the joy in it? Yeah for me initially

02:46:07.020 | It was just learning new stuff, you know

02:46:10.980 | You just come in as a white belt and every day you learn you see a different move and you're like, oh man

02:46:15.100 | It's that's awesome. And then when I started to compete more seriously towards my professional career it was

02:46:23.140 | The joy of doing camps and seeing the result of those camps and beating high-level athletes

02:46:28.460 | And then it got to a point where I've beaten all the high-level athletes already. So

02:46:33.060 | Who am I gonna compete against?

02:46:35.580 | so now for me the joy is just

02:46:37.980 | Being the best athlete that can possibly be until I reach my prime which I'm hoping is somewhere between 35 and 40

02:46:47.020 | So instead of competing against the other athletes

02:46:50.620 | That would be bored already because I already beat all the rest of the guys

02:46:53.300 | but I

02:46:55.540 | Know that now I know that I can be better in a year from now or two years from now that I am today

02:47:00.980 | And that for me is exciting

02:47:02.980 | By the way, is there some aspect of teaching that's exciting to you? Yeah, I become a better and better teacher over the years

02:47:11.220 | Yeah. Yeah, I definitely I enjoy teaching and I

02:47:14.500 | used to teach a

02:47:17.500 | Lot before I met John and that I met John and I was like, yeah, I just have no idea how to teach

02:47:22.380 | So that's like a completely different element of the sport

02:47:25.740 | you know doing things and being good at doing things or being good at winning and actually being able to communicate those skills and knowledge to

02:47:33.260 | To a vast amount of people is two completely different things

02:47:37.020 | George advice for young people like yourself

02:47:41.540 | well

02:47:43.740 | First I was I would tell them fine

02:47:47.380 | What you want to become what you want to do and long term?

02:47:51.580 | Use certain things maybe sometime you don't love but where you want to propel yourself at the future

02:47:57.700 | Not what your parent your your friend wants you to become what you you you want to become

02:48:03.180 | So one once you find it

02:48:05.820 | You cannot doing it by yourself

02:48:09.580 | Everything that are that is big achievement in life. We cannot do it doing it by ourselves

02:48:15.060 | So what I would say is second thing is

02:48:17.380 | Try to build up your team and try to build up your team to be able to achieve your goal

02:48:22.500 | of

02:48:24.380 | people that are competent and people that you trust you need both competency and trust I

02:48:30.820 | Sell out of people sometime in business. For example, they hire people they that are that they trust but they turn out to be incompetent

02:48:38.740 | So now you have to fire a friend or otherwise your business going down

02:48:42.740 | It's same problem. If you do the opposite you are you're someone that is competent, but you cannot trust is gonna

02:48:47.700 | It's gonna screw you, you know

02:48:49.700 | So it's very important to stay away from the negative build up your team people you trust and that are competent

02:48:55.460 | And I would say the third one is to work to work hard to sacrifice yourself

02:49:02.180 | Yeah, you have to go through hell sometime

02:49:04.340 | But yeah

02:49:04.700 | You have to see the light at the end of it of it, you know to keep your dream in mind

02:49:09.620 | It's gonna give you the motivation to go through the tough time. It's nothing easy to go work work work

02:49:13.940 | It's nothing you can accomplish without hard work

02:49:16.020 | The fourth one I would say

02:49:20.060 | To invest on yourself constantly if you do not invest on yourself on whatever you are in which business and sport

02:49:27.180 | The game will catch up to you

02:49:29.460 | for example if you're if you become

02:49:31.700 | Champion at something and if you stop improving the other guys that are trying to be champion

02:49:38.220 | They're gonna catch up to you. So you need to invest on yourself and most people

02:49:42.420 | Most athlete they make the mistake when they start to have a money

02:49:45.620 | They buy luxury stuff and that's one thing I didn't do when I start making money

02:49:51.380 | I was investing of on traveling to New York train with John Gordon and the guys to learn

02:49:56.220 | What is new in the the game of Jiu-Jitsu? I used to go in Thailand train Muay Thai

02:50:04.380 | In Los Angeles to perfect my boxing skill

02:50:07.140 | So instead of taking that money to buy me jewelry cars and to do what a lot of guys do because it's a mistake. I

02:50:14.660 | Invested on myself because I know there were people coming. They don't want my place. So I want I didn't want them to catch me

02:50:21.500 | And the last one I would say it seems weird. I would say

02:50:26.760 | To give back and it's not because I'm a nice guy and it's not that I don't say that to look good

02:50:34.320 | I say that

02:50:35.880 | When you you make it

02:50:37.880 | It creates opportunity where you can help certain group of people

02:50:43.440 | But when I say give back not give back to everybody to anybody

02:50:47.920 | Give back only to the cause that you want I give back not because I'm a nice guy

02:50:54.080 | I'm kind of it's kind of selfish. I only give back to the people that I want to give back

02:50:58.560 | Because I give back to them and I know that if I'm more successful

02:51:01.940 | I'm gonna be able to give back to people. I loved the cause that that that count for me

02:51:07.600 | So it's it brings me more motivation because I don't compete for myself anymore

02:51:13.360 | I compete to help people I love in a way

02:51:16.000 | So what when you you reach the top in your game?

02:51:19.720 | You need to find new motivation if you're satisfied is is the end of it your success will go down

02:51:26.760 | So you need to to find new motivation. What can motivate you?

02:51:30.760 | You know, what do you want? I want to help this so I need to to be successful

02:51:34.600 | I want to you know, you need to find reason who you what do you want to do with your success?

02:51:39.900 | So when I say give back it's not because I'm not because I'm necessarily it's not to be to look like a nice guy

02:51:45.680 | It's to keep your motivation to be able to keep climbing the ladder even more

02:51:51.440 | That's beautiful George

02:51:54.640 | John

02:51:56.440 | Um first off the two responses given so far covered. I think the most important things or already

02:52:02.680 | Gordon talked about the need for an underlying passion and enjoyment

02:52:09.320 | If you don't have that you're not going to have the longevity that is required in order to build

02:52:13.960 | Skills, which is ultimately everything's going to come down to your ability to build skills

02:52:18.640 | You've got to have some kind of underlying passion and enjoyment which will keep you in the game long enough to build world championship skills

02:52:25.880 | It's going to take a minimum of five years and quite possibly considerably longer than that

02:52:30.280 | George talked about the idea of community. You're not going to make it by yourself

02:52:35.800 | So you've got to be able to build people around you and and build a trusting environment around you to develop those skills

02:52:42.960 | What I would add to the the excellent points that both already raised

02:52:48.640 | Alludes to what I said at the start of this podcast

02:52:52.000 | You've got to be able to identify

02:52:54.880 | some kind of undervalued

02:52:56.880 | Elements in whatever industry you're in and show the world what their true value is in

02:53:02.960 | addition

02:53:05.320 | You can't go through life

02:53:07.320 | Doing the same things as everybody else and expecting to get different results

02:53:12.840 | This is straightforwardly irrational and worse. It's even arrogant

02:53:17.240 | It's essentially the statement that I'm going to do the same thing as everyone else

02:53:21.600 | But I believe I'm different and so they'll work for me

02:53:25.040 | But they didn't work for everyone else. That's like saying no, I'm special

02:53:29.240 | No, you're not special. We're all pretty much the same and

02:53:33.480 | In order to be special you're going to have to exhibit skills that other people simply don't have

02:53:40.200 | Thirdly I would say if you want to become something truly impressive in life

02:53:47.680 | You've got to be able to focus on one or two things that you do better than anyone else in your industry

02:53:54.120 | You can't learn everything but you can become one or two skills and the more innovative those skills are the better and

02:54:02.360 | You can truly excel at them. For example at the peak of his career

02:54:07.400 | No one in the world was better than George St. Pierre at integrating striking and takedowns

02:54:13.800 | No one in the world was better at integrating grappling and striking on the ground

02:54:18.120 | He had two things that he could confidently say he was the best in the world at was he the best at every MMA skill?

02:54:25.800 | nope

02:54:26.880 | but he was

02:54:28.560 | Absolutely the best at those two skills and those two skills were skills which he used throughout his career to win

02:54:34.080 | the vast majority of his matches

02:54:36.320 | Gordon Ryan at the onset of his career could confidently say there's no one in the world better than me at leg locks

02:54:43.560 | He could also say there's no one better in the world at me at late-stage defense

02:54:47.960 | To submission holds across the board as he went through his career. He started adding more and more elements

02:54:56.400 | It's gotten to an extraordinary degree now where you could absolutely say he's the best at guard passing the best guard retention

02:55:02.920 | the less this keeps going on and that goes back to what

02:55:08.000 | Gordon said earlier about keeping things interesting over time because we're always introducing new skill sets the day you start saying

02:55:14.800 | I'm satisfied with my skill set is the day you get bored and bored boredom to an athlete is a precursor to

02:55:22.360 | Death by boredom

02:55:25.880 | As long as you're still growing in those directions, you'll stay in the game

02:55:29.720 | For very long periods of time. So the main thing I would add to these

02:55:35.840 | Statements by Gordon and George is this idea of finding something which is currently undervalued and showing the world what its true value is

02:55:43.720 | Understanding that

02:55:48.280 | You can't just use the same training methodologies as everyone else and somehow expect to be different from everyone else. You've got a

02:55:55.160 | Almost every great rise in human civilization whether it be groups of people or individuals

02:56:01.520 | Required some kind of innovation. You've got to look for that new angle. Okay, George st

02:56:06.800 | Pierre found that was shoot boxing early on in his career

02:56:09.040 | Gordon Ryan found it with leg locks early on in his career and they branched out from that from that angle

02:56:15.220 | Add to this the idea that you want to become the

02:56:21.720 | Absolute best in the world in your industry and one or two things that make a difference

02:56:27.720 | Find out what they are and focus on those things and you'll go far

02:56:32.040 | John Gordon George, this is an incredible conversation. Thank you so much for your

02:56:38.800 | Extremely valuable time George as somebody who's become famous in part

02:56:43.680 | by commenting on people's performance

02:56:46.500 | How do you think we did how would you evaluate our performance today?

02:56:54.320 | I'm not impressed by

02:56:56.320 | Learn all the time. I've talked to you guys. I mean, it's great. I loved it. It was very

02:57:05.160 | Stimulated I and really enjoyed it. Yeah, it's a it was it was something I really was looking forward to I was hoping that we'd get together

02:57:13.000 | It's so rare that at the same time in history

02:57:17.160 | There will be some of the greats together and the fact that you guys would be willing to come together and talk like this

02:57:21.760 | This is awesome. And that Gordon he would even wear a cowboy hat. I mean, this is just historic

02:57:26.800 | This is like Churchill getting together with whoever, you know, this is great and all but the next one is just gonna be us

02:57:32.480 | Just quizzing John on which animals would win in fights. Yes for the whole three hours

02:57:37.520 | It'll be just so we'll invite Joe and you'll just be we'll make it a systematic

02:57:42.320 | It'll be a debate between Joe and John on which animal would win John and I we have a thing that we send each other

02:57:48.720 | Footage all the time of animal fight where we are very intrigued about animal fight

02:57:55.480 | I get them at like 3.30 a.m. on Instagram. He's like check this out. Like a rhino taking a like a pig like

02:58:04.400 | Like literally like it's not always fair. No, no, it's not ever but interesting stuff

02:58:10.240 | If you people would see what we send the stuff that we that would judge you harshly

02:58:17.040 | Alright, thanks so much guys. This is awesome

02:58:19.460 | Thanks for listening to this conversation with George St. Pierre John Donahue and Gordon Ryan to support this podcast

02:58:27.560 | Please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you some words from Miyamoto Musashi

02:58:34.360 | There's nothing outside yourself that can ever enable you to get better stronger richer quicker or smarter

02:58:43.960 | Everything is within everything exists seek nothing outside of yourself

02:58:49.200 | Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time

02:58:52.840 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Georges St-Pierre, John Danaher & Gordon Ryan: The Greatest of All Time | Lex Fridman Podcast #260

Chapters