Dr Layne Norton: The Science of Eating for Health, Fat Loss & Lean Muscle

00:00:00.000 | - Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,

00:00:02.280 | where we discuss science and science-based tools

00:00:04.880 | for everyday life.

00:00:05.900 | I'm Andrew Huberman,

00:00:10.160 | and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology

00:00:13.120 | at Stanford School of Medicine.

00:00:14.880 | Today, my guest is Dr. Lane Norton.

00:00:17.120 | Dr. Norton is one of the foremost experts

00:00:19.120 | in protein metabolism, fat loss, and nutrition.

00:00:22.280 | He did his degrees in biochemistry and nutritional sciences

00:00:25.720 | and is considered one of the world experts

00:00:27.820 | in understanding how we extract energy from our food

00:00:31.100 | and how exercise and what we eat combine

00:00:34.440 | to impact things like body composition and overall health.

00:00:38.160 | Today, we discuss an enormous number of topics

00:00:40.500 | under the umbrella of nutrition and fitness,

00:00:42.800 | including, for instance, what is energy balance?

00:00:45.840 | That is, how do we actually extract energy from our food?

00:00:49.380 | We also discuss the somewhat controversial topic

00:00:51.800 | of artificial sweeteners, whether or not they are safe or not

00:00:54.600 | and whether or not they are an effective tool

00:00:56.500 | for weight loss, in particular for people suffering

00:00:58.840 | from obesity and different types of diabetes.

00:01:01.720 | We also talk about gut health, that is the gut microbiome,

00:01:04.840 | and how it's impacted by food

00:01:06.400 | and how it can actually impact the metabolism

00:01:08.960 | of the foods that we eat.

00:01:10.460 | We also discuss fasting, or so-called intermittent fasting,

00:01:13.440 | or time-restricted feeding, what it does

00:01:15.840 | and what it does not do in terms of how effective it is

00:01:19.360 | for weight loss and perhaps even for health and longevity.

00:01:22.680 | We also talk about protein and define very clearly

00:01:25.300 | how much protein each and all of us need,

00:01:27.560 | depending on our daily activities and life demands.

00:01:30.600 | We discuss the various types of diets

00:01:32.440 | that you've probably heard about,

00:01:33.520 | including ketogenic diets, vegan diets, vegetarian diets,

00:01:37.760 | and pure carnivore diets,

00:01:38.920 | as well as more typical omnivore diets,

00:01:40.880 | and how to make sure that you get all

00:01:42.860 | of the essential amino acids that are critical

00:01:45.460 | for healthy weight maintenance, weight loss,

00:01:47.840 | or directed muscle gain.

00:01:49.580 | We also talk about supplements, in particular,

00:01:51.840 | the supplements for which there is an immense amount

00:01:54.440 | of science pointing to their safety and efficacy

00:01:57.360 | for fitness and for overall body composition.

00:02:00.720 | What I'm sure will become clear to you

00:02:02.120 | as you hear Layne talk about each

00:02:03.480 | and every one of these topics,

00:02:05.080 | is that he has an incredible ability

00:02:07.200 | to both understand the mechanistic science,

00:02:09.600 | but also the real-world applications

00:02:12.040 | of the various discoveries that are made

00:02:13.840 | in particular papers, and in particular,

00:02:16.660 | in the randomized controlled trials.

00:02:18.380 | That is, when a given scientific hypothesis has been raised,

00:02:23.160 | he's extremely good at understanding why it was raised,

00:02:26.220 | but also at evaluating whether or not it works

00:02:29.060 | in the real world, which is what I believe

00:02:31.040 | most everybody out there is concerned with.

00:02:33.720 | I think this is one of the things

00:02:35.020 | that really distinguishes him from the other voices

00:02:37.400 | in the nutritional landscape.

00:02:39.200 | I assure you that by the end of today's discussion,

00:02:41.680 | you will have a much clearer understanding

00:02:43.880 | about what the science says about nutrition,

00:02:47.000 | about fitness, and about how different diets

00:02:50.000 | and fitness programs combine to achieve the results

00:02:52.960 | that you want.

00:02:53.920 | Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize

00:02:55.720 | that this podcast is separate from my teaching

00:02:57.520 | and research roles at Stanford.

00:02:59.280 | It is, however, part of my desire and effort

00:03:01.380 | to bring zero cost to consumer information about science

00:03:04.120 | and science-related tools to the general public.

00:03:06.860 | In keeping with that theme,

00:03:08.040 | I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

00:03:10.760 | Our first sponsor is Element.

00:03:12.680 | Element is an electrolyte drink with everything you need

00:03:15.620 | and nothing that you don't.

00:03:17.060 | That means it contains sodium, potassium, and magnesium,

00:03:20.280 | the so-called electrolytes, but no sugar.

00:03:23.120 | As you may have heard me discuss before on this podcast,

00:03:25.760 | every cell in our body,

00:03:26.900 | and in particular cells within our brain,

00:03:28.680 | the so-called neurons or nerve cells,

00:03:30.440 | critically rely on the presence of electrolytes,

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00:03:37.880 | I myself am a big believer in consuming electrolytes

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00:03:45.840 | So by drinking electrolytes

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00:05:29.680 | Today's episode is also brought to us by Inside Tracker.

00:05:32.760 | Inside Tracker is a personalized nutrition program

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00:06:30.080 | The Huberman Lab podcast

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00:06:44.340 | Again, that's livemomentous.com/huberman.

00:06:47.480 | And now for my discussion with Dr. Lane Norton.

00:06:50.320 | Lane, Dr. Norton, thank you so much for being here.

00:06:52.840 | This is a long time coming.

00:06:54.040 | And I have to say, I'm really excited

00:06:55.880 | because I've seen you in the social media sphere.

00:06:59.340 | I've also listened to a number of your other podcasts.

00:07:01.760 | And as a fellow PhD scientist,

00:07:04.600 | I feel a great kinship with you.

00:07:06.560 | I know you have tremendous experience

00:07:09.080 | in fitness and nutrition, a number of areas.

00:07:11.800 | We also got a lot of questions from our audience,

00:07:14.680 | and I'm really looking forward to talking with you today.

00:07:17.780 | - Yeah, I'm excited too.

00:07:18.680 | I mean, like you said,

00:07:19.600 | it's been something we've been talking about

00:07:20.680 | for a long time.

00:07:21.520 | So I was glad we were able to make it happen.

00:07:23.140 | - Yeah, indeed.

00:07:24.120 | And I think some of the audience

00:07:25.960 | has requested a debate or a battle,

00:07:28.200 | and I can tell you right now, it's not going to happen.

00:07:30.500 | Actually, one of the things that brought Lane and I together

00:07:34.480 | in conversation online and then via text, et cetera,

00:07:38.260 | was the fact that I love to be corrected.

00:07:43.260 | And that's what happened.

00:07:44.560 | I did a post about artificial sweeteners,

00:07:46.980 | which we will talk about a little bit later in the episode.

00:07:49.980 | And Lane pointed out some areas of the study

00:07:53.000 | that I had missed or maybe misunderstood,

00:07:57.420 | and I revised my opinions and I think it's wonderful.

00:08:00.460 | And other studies have come out since then.

00:08:02.040 | So hopefully our conversation will serve as a message

00:08:06.100 | of how science and actionable science can be perceived

00:08:11.100 | and that it doesn't always have to be a battle,

00:08:13.560 | but hey, if we get into it, we get into it.

00:08:16.160 | It won't get physical because we know you would win.

00:08:18.600 | So in any case,

00:08:20.680 | I'd like to start with something that's rather basic

00:08:23.600 | and yet can be pretty complex.

00:08:26.400 | And that's this issue of energy balance

00:08:28.780 | and energy utilization.

00:08:30.460 | I think most people have heard of a calorie.

00:08:33.400 | I'm assuming that most people don't actually know

00:08:36.260 | what that is in terms of how it works, what it represents.

00:08:40.780 | And so maybe you could just explain for people

00:08:44.120 | what happens when we eat food of any kind

00:08:47.620 | and how is that actually converted into energy

00:08:50.700 | as a way of framing up the discussion around weight loss,

00:08:53.560 | weight maintenance, weight gain, and body composition.

00:08:57.580 | - So a great question.

00:08:58.580 | And like you said, this is one of those things where,

00:09:00.540 | you know, people use the term calories in, calories out,

00:09:02.780 | and they say, well, that's way too simplistic.

00:09:05.540 | And I'm like, if you look at what actually makes up

00:09:08.220 | calories in, calories out,

00:09:09.860 | it's actually very complicated, right?

00:09:11.980 | So let's deal with what you mentioned first.

00:09:16.560 | What is a calorie?

00:09:17.640 | Because I think a lot of people don't quite understand this.

00:09:21.180 | So a calorie just refers to a unit of energy,

00:09:24.820 | of heat specifically.

00:09:26.820 | And so, well, what does that have to do with food?

00:09:28.660 | What does that have to do with like what we digest and eat?

00:09:33.060 | Really what you're talking about

00:09:34.880 | is the potential chemical energy

00:09:37.880 | that is in the bonds of the macronutrients of food, right?

00:09:41.580 | And by digesting, assimilating,

00:09:44.700 | and metabolizing those nutrients,

00:09:47.620 | we're able to create energy.

00:09:49.700 | And the end product of that mostly is ATP,

00:09:54.500 | adenosine triphosphate,

00:09:56.860 | which is your body's energy currency.

00:09:59.700 | So to understand ATP,

00:10:02.980 | just try to think about if you're trying to power

00:10:05.580 | these various reactions in your body,

00:10:08.260 | and we're talking about tens of thousands of enzymes

00:10:10.680 | that require ATP,

00:10:12.140 | it doesn't make sense that you would have to create

00:10:16.660 | a bunch of micro explosions, right?

00:10:19.460 | You want something that can transfer high energy phosphates

00:10:23.980 | to power these reactions,

00:10:25.460 | to give up essentially its energy,

00:10:27.660 | to power something that might otherwise be unfavorable.

00:10:30.660 | So a lot of metabolism is simply creating ATP,

00:10:36.740 | which the end of the line of that,

00:10:40.900 | I'm gonna kind of work backwards,

00:10:42.780 | is what's called oxidative respiration.

00:10:45.820 | So that happens in the mitochondria.

00:10:47.540 | Everybody's heard, "Monochondria powerhouse of the cell."

00:10:50.220 | And that is done through essentially

00:10:53.780 | creating a hydrogen ion gradient across the mitochondria,

00:10:57.300 | which powers the production of ATP

00:10:59.860 | by converting free phosphate plus ADP to ATP.

00:11:04.700 | Now, the way that hydrogen ion gradient is created

00:11:07.900 | is through creating hydrogen ions

00:11:12.340 | that can be donated through the Krebs cycle.

00:11:15.080 | Now, the Krebs cycle is linked to glycolysis.

00:11:17.720 | So if we talk about carbohydrate metabolism,

00:11:20.060 | carbohydrates, basically other than fructose,

00:11:24.260 | get converted into glucose, which can go into glycolysis,

00:11:28.220 | and you can produce some ATPs through glycolysis.

00:11:30.940 | And then it boils down to pyruvate, then acetyl-CoA,

00:11:34.700 | which goes through the Krebs cycle,

00:11:36.100 | produces a lot more ATPs from that.

00:11:39.380 | If you talk about protein,

00:11:41.140 | protein's a little bit different

00:11:42.340 | because protein gets converted to amino acids,

00:11:45.180 | which can be used for muscle protein synthesis

00:11:48.120 | or protein synthesis in other tissues,

00:11:50.820 | but it also can be converted

00:11:52.140 | through glycogenesis to glucose.

00:11:54.860 | And there also are some ketogenic amino acids as well.

00:11:58.920 | And so you can have a few different ways

00:12:01.580 | to get to the Krebs cycle,

00:12:02.940 | either being through acetyl-CoA

00:12:06.260 | or through glucose going through glycolysis to pyruvate.

00:12:09.960 | Then you have fatty acids,

00:12:13.020 | which are able to create energy

00:12:17.460 | through what's called beta oxidation,

00:12:19.400 | where essentially you're taking these fatty acids

00:12:21.000 | and you're lopping them off two carbons at a time

00:12:23.340 | to produce acetyl-CoA,

00:12:24.820 | which again can go into the Krebs cycle,

00:12:27.180 | produce those hydrodions

00:12:28.360 | that can then power the production of ATP.

00:12:31.020 | So that's kind of like at the cellular level

00:12:33.040 | of how this stuff works.

00:12:34.820 | But stepping back and taking it back out,

00:12:37.940 | like what does that have to do

00:12:39.140 | with weight loss or weight gain, right?

00:12:41.820 | Well, when you think about the balance

00:12:45.540 | of energy in versus energy out,

00:12:47.340 | sounds very simple,

00:12:48.620 | but let's look at what actually makes up

00:12:50.380 | energy in versus energy out.

00:12:52.620 | First of all, you've got to realize

00:12:54.780 | that the energy inside of the equation

00:12:57.520 | is more difficult to track than people think, right?

00:13:00.960 | So one, food labels,

00:13:03.780 | which we like to think is being, you know,

00:13:05.780 | like from upon high,

00:13:08.780 | can have up to a 20% error in them.

00:13:10.700 | - Really?

00:13:11.540 | - Oh yeah.

00:13:12.360 | - So a hundred calorie,

00:13:13.260 | is something listed as a hundred calories per serving,

00:13:15.220 | it could, what's actually in there,

00:13:16.500 | it could be 80 or 120.

00:13:18.220 | - Right, exactly.

00:13:19.660 | So that's one aspect of it.

00:13:22.680 | The second aspect is there's what's called your energy,

00:13:25.380 | but then there's also metabolizable energy, right?

00:13:27.480 | So if you have a food stuff with say

00:13:29.220 | a lot of insoluble fiber,

00:13:30.880 | typically insoluble fiber is not really digestible.

00:13:34.060 | And so you could have, you know,

00:13:35.920 | quite a bit of carbohydrate, you know,

00:13:38.260 | but if you can't extract the energy from it,

00:13:41.960 | and typically this is because insoluble fiber

00:13:43.980 | from like plant material,

00:13:46.220 | the carbohydrate or, and even some of the protein,

00:13:49.060 | is bound up in the plant structure,

00:13:52.780 | which makes it inaccessible to digestive enzymes.

00:13:55.900 | And so this is what like adds bulk

00:13:57.360 | to your stool and whatnot.

00:13:59.140 | But again, reduces the metabolizable energy in there.

00:14:02.280 | And there's some evidence that based on

00:14:04.740 | people's individual gut microbiome,

00:14:07.660 | that some people may actually be better at extracting energy

00:14:11.900 | out of fiber compared to other people.

00:14:14.980 | So just starting off right there, okay,

00:14:18.060 | there's quite a bit of play in the energy inside of things.

00:14:21.940 | Now, one of the things people will say is,

00:14:25.060 | well, see, that's why you shouldn't worry

00:14:26.340 | about tracking calories.

00:14:27.300 | 'Cause you know, if the food labels can be 20% off

00:14:29.620 | and what I'll say is, okay, that's,

00:14:33.640 | I understand where you're coming from,

00:14:35.020 | but typically if it's off,

00:14:36.380 | it's gonna be consistently off.

00:14:38.060 | And if you're consistent with how you track it,

00:14:40.180 | eventually you'll be able to know

00:14:42.540 | kind of what you're taking in.

00:14:44.520 | And that's kind of like saying,

00:14:45.940 | well, don't worry about tracking, you know,

00:14:48.900 | if you're, I like to use financial examples.

00:14:53.100 | You know, we know that to save money

00:14:55.740 | or you have to earn more money than you spend.

00:14:58.500 | Well, you can't exactly know how much money

00:15:00.440 | you're earning at a time, you know,

00:15:01.900 | 'cause there's inflation and then there's,

00:15:04.140 | if you have investments, those can be, you know,

00:15:06.900 | different interest rates and whatnot.

00:15:09.360 | Say, okay, but you're, you know, if you have a budget,

00:15:11.660 | you have a reasonable idea of what it's gonna be, you know,

00:15:14.100 | and you make certain assumptions,

00:15:15.780 | but you can relatively guess.

00:15:17.600 | - Yeah, that's a good example.

00:15:18.640 | - Right.

00:15:19.920 | So now let's look at the energy outside of the equation,

00:15:22.060 | which is actually way more complicated, right?

00:15:24.000 | And so your energy out is a few different buckets.

00:15:29.000 | The first one and the biggest one

00:15:30.500 | is your resting metabolic rate, so your RMR.

00:15:33.800 | And that for most people is anywhere from 50 to 70%

00:15:37.940 | of your total daily energy expenditure.

00:15:40.540 | Now people use the term metabolic rate

00:15:42.780 | and energy expenditure kind of interchangeably,

00:15:45.300 | but they're not the same thing.

00:15:47.140 | So your total daily energy expenditure

00:15:48.980 | is the summation of all the energy you expend in a day.

00:15:53.740 | - Walking upstairs, exercise if you do it.

00:15:56.820 | - Fidgeting, yeah.

00:15:58.060 | - Plus your resting metabolic rate.

00:15:59.780 | - Right, so resting metabolic rate is a big part of that,

00:16:02.140 | but it's not the only thing.

00:16:04.140 | So that's usually about 50 to 70%.

00:16:06.460 | And sedentary people will be on the higher end of that,

00:16:09.580 | so it'll be a bigger proportion,

00:16:10.820 | whereas people who are more active,

00:16:12.300 | it'll be a little bit lower,

00:16:13.860 | not because their metabolic rate is lower,

00:16:15.340 | but because they're expending a greater percentage

00:16:17.300 | of their calories from physical activity.

00:16:19.380 | Then you have something called the thermic effect of food,

00:16:22.940 | which is a relatively small percentage

00:16:24.980 | of your total daily energy expenditure.

00:16:26.740 | It's about five to 10%.

00:16:29.140 | And very difficult to measure,

00:16:30.660 | and usually what researchers do

00:16:32.140 | when they're kind of looking at this stuff

00:16:34.140 | is they just kind of make an assumption about it.

00:16:35.860 | They use a constant.

00:16:37.700 | But that's about five to 10%

00:16:38.860 | of your daily energy expenditure,

00:16:39.980 | and that refers to the amount of energy it takes

00:16:42.940 | to extract the energy out of food.

00:16:45.740 | So think about your body kind of like a car, right?

00:16:49.420 | You don't just have gas in your tank

00:16:50.820 | and it spontaneously starts up, right?

00:16:52.300 | Like you have to have a battery,

00:16:53.220 | so you put in energy so you can get the energy

00:16:55.380 | out of the petrol that you have in your car.

00:16:58.480 | Similar with food, you can't just eat food

00:17:02.420 | and then it just appears in your cells

00:17:04.740 | and you start doing stuff.

00:17:06.480 | It has to be systematically broken down

00:17:08.700 | and put into forms that can actually produce energy.

00:17:12.700 | And so you have to put some energy in to achieve that.

00:17:16.300 | And a lot of times people will say something like,

00:17:19.500 | well, not all calories are created equal.

00:17:22.860 | That's not true because calories

00:17:24.140 | just a unit of measurement, right?

00:17:25.940 | That would be like saying not all seconds

00:17:27.700 | on a clock are created equal.

00:17:29.340 | Yes, they are.

00:17:30.660 | All sources of calories may have differential effects

00:17:34.420 | on energy expenditure and appetite.

00:17:36.120 | So if we look at something like fat, for example,

00:17:40.480 | the TEF of fat is about zero to 3%,

00:17:42.920 | meaning if you eat 100 calories from fat,

00:17:45.120 | your net will be about 97 to 100.

00:17:47.640 | - So the process of breaking down that fat

00:17:49.720 | essentially subtracts some of the calories away

00:17:53.520 | because you used it in creating energy

00:17:56.200 | by breaking those chemical bonds to create ATP.

00:17:58.360 | - Correct. - Okay.

00:17:59.740 | - So you have like, for example,

00:18:00.940 | some enzymes that require ATP to run these processes.

00:18:03.960 | Now fat is actually the easiest thing to convert into energy.

00:18:07.580 | Then you have carbohydrate,

00:18:08.540 | which has a TEF of like five to 10%.

00:18:10.940 | So you eat 100 calories from carbohydrate.

00:18:13.020 | And obviously like the fiber content

00:18:14.820 | makes a big difference on this.

00:18:16.760 | But if you eat 100 calories, you'll net 90 to 95.

00:18:19.940 | Protein is about a 20 to 30% TEF.

00:18:23.740 | So if you eat 100 calories from protein,

00:18:25.100 | you're only netting 70 to 80.

00:18:27.180 | Now you're still net, you know, people say,

00:18:29.140 | well, you can't eat too much protein.

00:18:31.300 | Well, you know, people will ask well,

00:18:33.840 | can protein be stored as fat?

00:18:35.280 | The carbons from protein,

00:18:37.200 | it's unlikely it's gonna wind up in adipose tissue.

00:18:39.040 | But if you're eating a lot of protein overall

00:18:40.680 | as part of a lot of calories, it does,

00:18:42.840 | it has to be oxidized and it can provide a calorie cushion

00:18:45.160 | for other things to be stored in fat.

00:18:47.560 | But protein itself does provide, you know,

00:18:51.220 | a net positive for calories,

00:18:52.520 | but less so than carbohydrate or fat

00:18:54.800 | and tends to be more satiating.

00:18:56.280 | So again, when people talk about, you know,

00:18:58.440 | are all the calories created equal?

00:18:59.840 | Yes, but all sources of calories

00:19:01.460 | may have differential effects

00:19:02.540 | on energy expenditure and appetite.

00:19:05.060 | So that's the TEF bucket and the BMR bucket.

00:19:08.100 | Then we go to physical activity.

00:19:09.740 | And physical activity is essentially two parts.

00:19:11.900 | There's exercise, which is kind of your purposeful movements

00:19:16.020 | like you go out for a walk, you do a training session,

00:19:19.520 | I mean, whatever, any purposeful activity.

00:19:23.080 | And then you have what's called NEAT,

00:19:24.720 | which is non-exercise activity thermogenesis,

00:19:27.300 | which I think is actually really cool.

00:19:29.160 | - It's fascinating.

00:19:30.040 | - Yeah, it is.

00:19:30.880 | So it's, I was actually hanging out with somebody last night

00:19:33.640 | and I was noticing them and they were fidgeting their feet

00:19:37.080 | and their fingers.

00:19:38.920 | And I said, you know, have you always been pretty lean?

00:19:43.140 | And they were like, yeah, I never really had a problem

00:19:45.520 | maintaining leanness.

00:19:47.420 | And when you look at the obese resistant phenotype,

00:19:50.740 | people think they have high BMR or, you know,

00:19:53.740 | they exercise a lot and really what it seems to be is NEAT.

00:19:57.380 | They tend to, if they overeat,

00:20:00.360 | they just spontaneously increase their physical activity.

00:20:03.240 | Now, people get NEAT confused.

00:20:05.980 | I've heard people say, well, I'm gonna go out for a walk

00:20:07.840 | to get my NEAT up.

00:20:09.100 | That's not NEAT.

00:20:10.440 | NEAT is not something you can consciously modify.

00:20:13.080 | What you're doing there, if it's purposeful, it's exercise.

00:20:15.980 | So for example, when I'm talking,

00:20:17.760 | if I'm waving around my hands, if I'm tapping my feet,

00:20:20.280 | if I'm whatever, that's NEAT.

00:20:24.080 | But, you know, trying to like get yourself,

00:20:26.840 | well, I'm just gonna tap my foot more.

00:20:28.980 | Well, now if I'm consciously having to do this,

00:20:31.160 | then my focus, I mean, you know how the brain works.

00:20:34.040 | Very hard to do.

00:20:35.300 | You know, you don't really do two things at once.

00:20:37.100 | You kind of switch quickly between tasks, right?

00:20:38.840 | - Absolutely.

00:20:39.680 | Can I quickly ask, was the person that you're referring to

00:20:42.220 | our friend Ben Bruno?

00:20:44.120 | - No, no, but he is fidgety too.

00:20:46.140 | - Amazing online fitness channel.

00:20:48.160 | He's a freakishly strong individual.

00:20:50.320 | - Oh, yeah. - Yeah.

00:20:51.400 | And I can't remember whether or not Ben,

00:20:54.560 | you're a fidgeter or not, but anyway,

00:20:56.320 | I'll have to go check and we'll measure your fidgeting.

00:20:59.200 | About non-exercise-induced thermogenesis, NEAT.

00:21:03.280 | My understanding of the old papers on this,

00:21:06.360 | old being, I guess, back to the mid-90s,

00:21:08.720 | is that the calorie burn from NEAT

00:21:10.880 | is actually pretty significant.

00:21:12.280 | We're not talking about 100 calories

00:21:13.800 | or 200 calories per day.

00:21:15.140 | We're talking about in some cases hundreds of thousands,

00:21:18.440 | excuse me, hundreds to maybe even close

00:21:21.080 | to a thousand calories per day.

00:21:22.440 | Could you elaborate on that?

00:21:23.680 | - Yeah, so there was actually a really classic study,

00:21:25.820 | I think from, I want to say it's from Levine in 1995,

00:21:30.400 | it was a metabolic award study,

00:21:32.280 | and hopefully I don't butcher the study

00:21:34.460 | because I'm trying to pull it out of my brain.

00:21:38.320 | - I don't expect you to have PubMed in your head,

00:21:40.120 | although I must say you have a quite extensive

00:21:43.400 | PubMed ID grab bag in there.

00:21:47.240 | - I try to bring the receipts.

00:21:48.360 | I try to bring the receipts.

00:21:49.960 | - We will put a link to the study in the show note captions

00:21:52.280 | so people can peruse it if they like.

00:21:55.240 | So I believe they had people overeating.

00:21:57.500 | I think it was by like a thousand calories a day

00:21:59.800 | and I think for six weeks.

00:22:01.640 | And I mean, this is the metabolic award.

00:22:02.980 | So they are, this is very tightly controlled.

00:22:05.400 | It's as tight as you get.

00:22:07.180 | And what was interesting is of course on average,

00:22:09.300 | people gained weight and gained fat mass,

00:22:12.180 | but some people gained more than expected.

00:22:16.300 | And there was one person in particular

00:22:17.940 | who only gained like just over half a kilo, right?

00:22:21.640 | They should have gained like,

00:22:23.560 | I think it was something like three to four kilos

00:22:25.360 | it was predicted.

00:22:26.680 | And what they found is this individual

00:22:29.240 | just spontaneously increased their physical activity.

00:22:33.260 | Like he didn't purposely do it.

00:22:34.880 | It just happened.

00:22:36.360 | And I mean, you know, anecdotally,

00:22:39.280 | I've seen people who are again, you know, very lean,

00:22:42.300 | even eat a meal, sit down and start sweating, you know,

00:22:46.880 | and be very fidgety.

00:22:48.240 | There was a natural bodybuilder back in the day

00:22:50.140 | named Jim Cordova.

00:22:51.600 | And this guy was just very lean all the time.

00:22:55.280 | And he was exactly that phenotype.

00:22:57.680 | You know, he would walk up a flight of stairs

00:22:59.520 | and all of a sudden he's sweating.

00:23:01.060 | Sit down, eat a meal, he's sweating.

00:23:02.560 | You know, he just--

00:23:03.480 | - He's a furnace.

00:23:04.440 | - Just expending energy.

00:23:06.040 | And what's very interesting about NEAT

00:23:09.960 | is that seems to be the most modifiable.

00:23:13.120 | I mean, exercise is very modifiable

00:23:14.840 | 'cause you can be intentional with that.

00:23:16.920 | But of, you know, BMR, TEF and NEAT,

00:23:20.560 | NEAT seems to be far more modifiable.

00:23:22.600 | So even a body weight reduction of 10%,

00:23:27.600 | they've observed a decrease in NEAT

00:23:31.040 | of almost 500 calories a day

00:23:33.620 | for a 10% reduction in body weight.

00:23:36.840 | Now, you also do get a decline in BMR when you lose weight.

00:23:40.240 | One, because you're just in a smaller body now

00:23:42.940 | and so it takes less energy to locomote.

00:23:46.900 | But also there's what's called metabolic adaptation,

00:23:49.420 | which is a further reduction in your BMR

00:23:53.200 | than expected from the loss of body mass.

00:23:55.580 | And that's on average usually around like 15%.

00:23:59.280 | But it does seem to be,

00:24:01.680 | there's new evidence coming out

00:24:02.880 | on the metabolic adaptation from BMR.

00:24:05.700 | And it seems to be a little bit

00:24:07.200 | kind of in the transition phases.

00:24:10.020 | So if you start a diet, within the first few weeks,

00:24:14.320 | you will have a reduction in BMR

00:24:17.260 | that then kind of just thereafter,

00:24:21.680 | any further reduction is mostly

00:24:23.360 | from the amount of body mass you lose.

00:24:25.880 | And then if you, like for example,

00:24:28.020 | finish a diet and move your calories to maintenance,

00:24:30.800 | within a few weeks, BMR kind of starts to come back up.

00:24:35.560 | There is still a small reduction,

00:24:38.040 | but I used to be somebody who thought the BMR,

00:24:41.360 | the metabolic adaptation was a big reason

00:24:43.200 | why people stopped losing weight or plateaued.

00:24:46.100 | And now I think it's much more to do with meat.

00:24:48.680 | - Interesting.

00:24:49.680 | And you've said that it can't be conscious

00:24:51.680 | because of that will distract us from other activities.

00:24:55.560 | I don't know if you've had a chance to look at this study

00:24:57.600 | and I'll send it to you.

00:24:58.420 | Maybe it'd be fun to do a kind of an online journal club

00:25:00.640 | about this at some point soon.

00:25:01.640 | But there's a study that came out

00:25:02.640 | at University of Houston recently, having people do,

00:25:05.800 | now this is a long period of time,

00:25:07.760 | four hours a day of basically a soleus pushup,

00:25:10.680 | which is basically a heel raise,

00:25:11.760 | kind of a seated calf raise with one foot, not weighted.

00:25:14.720 | And then they looked at it a bunch of things

00:25:15.940 | about glucose metabolism and glucose clearance

00:25:19.520 | and insulin levels.

00:25:20.440 | And they didn't conclude that people burned

00:25:23.100 | a ton of calories, but what they concluded

00:25:25.320 | was that blood sugar regulation improved greatly.

00:25:28.680 | And I think there was a lot of excitement about this

00:25:31.960 | at some level, but based on everything you're telling me,

00:25:35.960 | this fits perfectly with what's known about meat.

00:25:38.680 | So this sort of fell somewhere in between with,

00:25:41.080 | in between, excuse me, sort of deliberate exercise

00:25:44.240 | and spontaneous movement.

00:25:45.680 | I guess they've tried to make that spontaneous movement

00:25:47.640 | a little bit more conscious.

00:25:49.380 | - Well, what I'll tell people is if you're worried

00:25:51.220 | about meat, one thing you can do,

00:25:53.340 | like these watches, for example,

00:25:55.860 | people are like, oh, well it told me

00:25:56.880 | I burned this many calories.

00:25:58.880 | They are not accurate for energy expenditure.

00:26:01.520 | I mean, it is like, there was a meta-analysis in 2018,

00:26:06.340 | I wanna say, between a 28 and 93%

00:26:11.340 | overestimation of energy expenditure by these watches.

00:26:15.320 | - Fitness trackers, so for those of you listening,

00:26:16.680 | we're not gonna name the brand, but fitness trackers,

00:26:19.760 | so wrist-worn fitness trackers.

00:26:21.520 | - And this is across the board.

00:26:23.300 | So depending on the brand, it could be more or less,

00:26:25.900 | but they all overestimated the amount of calories

00:26:29.120 | you burn from exercise.

00:26:30.320 | So this is actually a great example where people go,

00:26:32.560 | well, calories in, calories out doesn't work for me

00:26:34.560 | 'cause I ate in a calorie deficit, I didn't lose weight.

00:26:37.000 | And when I talk to them, usually it's,

00:26:39.760 | they went to an online calculator, it's a few things.

00:26:42.580 | They went to an online calculator, put in their information,

00:26:45.500 | it spat out some calories to eat,

00:26:47.680 | and they ate that and didn't lose weight.

00:26:49.460 | And it's like, well, what do you think is more likely,

00:26:51.020 | that you're defying the laws of conservation of energy

00:26:54.920 | or that you might have not gotten the right number for you?

00:26:59.200 | - The measurement tool was off.

00:27:00.780 | - Yep.

00:27:01.620 | The next thing is a lot of people weigh very sporadically,

00:27:05.340 | and I'll tell people, like, if you're gonna make

00:27:06.940 | an intentional weight loss a goal,

00:27:08.880 | and again, this can be different for different people,

00:27:12.000 | but typically I tell people, weigh in,

00:27:14.760 | first thing in the morning, where I have to go

00:27:16.160 | to the bathroom, do it every day,

00:27:17.680 | and take the average of that for the week,

00:27:19.600 | and then compare that to the next week's average.

00:27:22.220 | - Can I ask one quick, sorry to interrupt,

00:27:23.540 | but one quick question about that.

00:27:24.380 | When you say go to the bathroom,

00:27:25.560 | not to get too detailed here unnecessarily,

00:27:30.280 | but are you talking about urination and emptying your bowels?

00:27:33.800 | Ideally, because you could eat a big meal the night before.

00:27:36.320 | Yeah, got it.

00:27:37.320 | So wake up, use the bathroom in all forms that you're ready,

00:27:42.320 | and then get on the scale, take that measurement,

00:27:46.940 | average that across the week,

00:27:48.760 | and then maybe every Monday you take that value

00:27:51.120 | and see it progress.

00:27:51.960 | - And the reason I recommend doing that is

00:27:55.200 | if you're just kind of sporadically weighing in,

00:27:57.640 | as somebody who weighs themselves pretty regularly,

00:28:01.320 | I mean, my weight will fluctuate five, six pounds,

00:28:04.400 | and not seemingly changing much,

00:28:07.040 | and that's just, those short-term changes are fluid.

00:28:10.480 | So I've had it before where week to week,

00:28:13.860 | my average didn't change,

00:28:15.120 | but between the lowest weigh-in from a previous week

00:28:18.140 | and the highest weigh-in might've been eight pounds, right?

00:28:22.820 | So if you're somebody who just randomly is weighing in

00:28:26.640 | and you're eating at a calorie deficit,

00:28:29.260 | and you just weigh in one day where you've just,

00:28:31.800 | whatever reason, holding some more fluid,

00:28:34.240 | then you, oh, see, this isn't working.

00:28:35.680 | When in reality, your average might be dropping.

00:28:38.440 | So that's one of the reasons,

00:28:39.680 | and actually, believe it or not,

00:28:42.060 | weight fluctuations are actually identified

00:28:44.280 | as a major reason why people get discouraged

00:28:46.200 | from weight loss.

00:28:47.260 | That it kind of stops the buy-in,

00:28:50.400 | when they have a fluctuation up.

00:28:51.520 | So that's one of the reasons early,

00:28:53.380 | one of the reasons early on

00:28:54.360 | that low carb diets tend to work really well

00:28:56.160 | is 'cause people lose a lot of water weight really quickly,

00:28:58.440 | and they get that buy-in, right?

00:29:00.280 | So all of this is working.

00:29:01.400 | - Yeah, we can return to that in a little bit

00:29:02.840 | because I have theories as to how that,

00:29:06.440 | when people eat less carbohydrate,

00:29:07.740 | they excrete more water, and they'll see,

00:29:10.080 | for the first time,

00:29:10.920 | they'll see some definition in their abs,

00:29:12.440 | and they'll go, oh my God, this diet's amazing.

00:29:14.580 | And the fluid loss does hold that promise.

00:29:17.320 | I think fluid loss can do some other things

00:29:18.720 | that might make people literally feel lighter,

00:29:21.920 | although it can have some negative effects.

00:29:23.960 | I do have one quick question,

00:29:25.280 | and I do want, we'll return to Neat in a moment,

00:29:27.660 | but when you say the caloric burn

00:29:30.060 | as a consequence of exercise,

00:29:31.920 | I want to ask about the caloric burn during that exercise.

00:29:35.280 | So for instance, somebody is on the treadmill,

00:29:37.560 | and they'll see, okay, they burn 400 calories.

00:29:39.760 | Actually, I think this is a month

00:29:40.840 | where a number of prominent podcasters

00:29:42.460 | like Bert Kreischer, Tom Segura, Joe Rogan, others,

00:29:45.160 | they call it Sober October,

00:29:46.260 | but in addition to avoiding alcohol,

00:29:48.160 | they're burning 500 calories per day during the exercise.

00:29:50.880 | They're measuring it.

00:29:52.040 | A lot of people do this.

00:29:53.120 | They think they take track of whether, excuse me,

00:29:56.120 | take stock of how many calories they burned.

00:29:59.160 | My understanding is that

00:30:00.600 | if that particular form of exercise

00:30:02.780 | is a muscle building form of exercise,

00:30:05.320 | that at some point later,

00:30:07.040 | there might be an increase in muscle.

00:30:09.800 | If you did everything right, do everything right,

00:30:12.080 | and then you will burn more energy

00:30:13.680 | as a consequence of adding that tissue.

00:30:15.560 | That's a long process, as you know, and we will discuss,

00:30:19.040 | but I have heard about this post-exercise

00:30:22.080 | induced increase in oxidative metabolism.

00:30:25.000 | I'm probably not using the right language in here.

00:30:27.400 | So if I were to go out, for instance, and do some sprints,

00:30:30.600 | run hard for a minute, jog for a minute, run hard for a minute

00:30:33.240 | and do that 10 times over,

00:30:34.860 | let's assume I burn 400 calories during that exercise bout,

00:30:41.460 | but my understanding is that in the hours that follow,

00:30:44.800 | my basal metabolic rate will have increased.

00:30:47.200 | Is that true?

00:30:48.300 | And is it significant enough to care about?

00:30:50.520 | - So answer both those questions.

00:30:52.720 | Yes, there does seem to be a small increase

00:30:56.640 | in metabolic rate, and no, it does not appear to be enough

00:31:00.360 | to actually make a difference.

00:31:01.320 | So when they look at, and again, this is where

00:31:04.040 | I tell people, I think I have a good perspective on this

00:31:08.760 | because my undergraduate degree was a biochemistry degree,

00:31:11.480 | so I was very into mechanisms, you know what I mean?

00:31:13.880 | It was like, oh, if we just do this and this,

00:31:15.920 | we'll get this, right?

00:31:17.640 | And then I did nutrition as a graduate degree,

00:31:20.140 | and then my advisor was so great

00:31:22.080 | because you could do something over here

00:31:24.180 | and he could tell you how it would affect

00:31:25.280 | vitamin D metabolism over here.

00:31:26.800 | - This is Don Lehman.

00:31:27.620 | - Yeah, Don Lehman.

00:31:28.520 | So he would always kind of say,

00:31:32.040 | yeah, but what's the outcome gonna be, right?

00:31:34.360 | So this is actually one of the things I changed my mind on

00:31:37.440 | was I used to be very much, well, I think high-intensity

00:31:40.480 | interval training is probably better

00:31:41.880 | because you get this post-exercise energy burn,

00:31:44.320 | which they do see in some of these studies,

00:31:47.000 | but in the kind of meta-analyses

00:31:49.660 | and more tightly-controlled studies

00:31:52.200 | where they equate work between high-intensity intervals

00:31:55.200 | and moderate or low-intensity cardio, so equating work,

00:31:59.240 | they don't see differences in the loss of body fat.

00:32:02.600 | And so to me, if I'm looking at,

00:32:05.080 | that's the example of a mechanism, which is,

00:32:08.040 | okay, we're seeing this small increase

00:32:09.960 | in basal metabolic rate that should lead

00:32:13.400 | to increased loss of body fat.

00:32:15.400 | But again, remember, you're capturing a snapshot in time,

00:32:18.200 | right, but we don't see a difference in the loss of body fat.

00:32:22.080 | So what may be happening, and again, I'm just speculating,

00:32:24.960 | but a way to explain it could be you might have an increase

00:32:28.640 | and then you might actually have a decrease

00:32:30.880 | that tends to just kind of wash it out, right?

00:32:33.880 | - And I have to imagine some forms of exercise,

00:32:36.580 | this would be highly individual,

00:32:37.700 | but will spike appetite more than others.

00:32:40.920 | So for instance, if I go out for a 45-minute jog,

00:32:43.960 | which I do a 45 to 60-minute hike or jog once a week,

00:32:47.040 | I just make it a point to do that,

00:32:48.280 | or ruck or something like that,

00:32:49.520 | throw on a weight vest and hike.

00:32:51.280 | After that, I find I'm very thirsty, I want to hydrate,

00:32:55.080 | but I'm not that hungry.

00:32:56.680 | And that's true of most all cardiovascular exercise for me.

00:32:59.960 | But after I weight train, about 60 to 90 minutes later,

00:33:05.820 | I want to eat the refrigerator.

00:33:08.160 | And so obviously, calories in, calories out dictates

00:33:11.680 | that that will play an important role

00:33:13.760 | as to whether or not I gain or lose weight, et cetera.

00:33:16.240 | So is it safe to say that the specific form of exercise

00:33:19.200 | that people choose needs to be taken

00:33:23.900 | in consideration of calories in, calories out,

00:33:25.920 | so how much is burned during the exercise,

00:33:27.800 | also how much that exercise tends to stimulate appetite.

00:33:30.960 | I don't know whether or not people explore this

00:33:32.760 | in the rigorous studies.

00:33:34.220 | And whether or not that form of exercise

00:33:36.560 | actually increases lean muscle mass or not.

00:33:39.840 | So now we've taken exercise

00:33:42.600 | and split it into a number of different dimensions,

00:33:44.560 | but this is what you are so masterful at,

00:33:47.020 | is really parsing how the different components

00:33:49.380 | work individually and together.

00:33:51.160 | So if you would just expand on that,

00:33:53.760 | I'd love to know what you're thinking.

00:33:55.500 | - Yeah, so this is actually a really fascinating thing.

00:33:58.680 | So first thing, I want to just go back to talking about,

00:34:01.600 | like for example, Bert and Tom and Joe,

00:34:04.280 | we're going to do 500 calories a day on whatever.

00:34:07.160 | So those apparatuses don't measure those things

00:34:09.520 | effectively either, right, just like these watches.

00:34:12.160 | But the one thing I will say is if you are,

00:34:16.040 | like for example, if I do two hours of resistance training,

00:34:18.980 | typically this will say I burned about 1,000 calories, right?

00:34:21.720 | - That's a lot of resistance training.

00:34:23.860 | My weight workouts are like, warm up for 10 minutes

00:34:26.380 | and then one hour of work done.

00:34:28.900 | - I love to train.

00:34:29.740 | - Okay, and you can recover from,

00:34:31.600 | my recovery quotient is pretty low.

00:34:33.720 | So I've been training for 30 plus years

00:34:36.540 | and I've found that if I do more than an hour of hard work

00:34:40.880 | in the gym, meaning resistance training,

00:34:44.520 | 75 minutes, maybe I'm okay, but past that,

00:34:47.460 | I have to take two, maybe even three days off

00:34:49.640 | before I can train.

00:34:50.480 | My nervous system just doesn't tolerate it well.

00:34:52.640 | So I limit it to an hour.

00:34:54.440 | - And part of that to remember is like,

00:34:57.240 | I've kind of built up to that

00:34:58.280 | over a long period of time, right?

00:34:59.940 | So you couldn't just throw somebody in

00:35:01.280 | and start having them do two hours a day.

00:35:02.440 | It's not going to go well for them.

00:35:04.400 | - I'd like to take a quick break

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00:35:23.040 | and the reason I still take Athletic Greens

00:35:25.120 | once or usually twice a day

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00:36:08.380 | And they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin D3K2.

00:36:11.800 | Again, that's athleticgreens.com/huberman

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00:36:15.840 | and the year's supply of vitamin D3K2.

00:36:18.640 | - What I will say about the calorie trackers is,

00:36:20.640 | so if I'm used to, okay,

00:36:22.240 | usually burn about a thousand calories according to this,

00:36:25.840 | it's not accurate.

00:36:27.240 | But if I go in tomorrow and I do 1300,

00:36:32.240 | it may not be accurate.

00:36:33.240 | I don't know what the exact number is,

00:36:34.600 | but I can be relatively confident

00:36:36.040 | that it's more than the previous session, right?

00:36:38.480 | And so in terms of comparison, it might be okay,

00:36:40.900 | like kind of within subject.

00:36:42.800 | And then the other thing I was kind of circling around on

00:36:46.120 | was if you're worried about NEAT,

00:36:48.000 | tracking your steps can be helpful

00:36:49.540 | because people's step counts can spontaneously decrease

00:36:51.900 | when they're on a fat loss diet.

00:36:52.860 | They don't even realize it.

00:36:54.140 | So, and that, again, not a complete measure of NEAT,

00:36:57.860 | but what we've had some clients do

00:37:00.560 | with our team violin coaches is they'll say,

00:37:03.100 | "Okay, you're at 8,000 steps right now.

00:37:06.080 | "We're not gonna add any purposeful cardio,

00:37:08.480 | "but whatever you need to do

00:37:11.140 | "to maintain that 8,000 steps, do that."

00:37:13.880 | And sometimes they have to add 15, 20, 30 minutes of cardio

00:37:18.340 | because their spontaneous activity

00:37:19.840 | that they're not even aware of goes down.

00:37:21.500 | - That's a really excellent point.

00:37:23.240 | I've heard the 10,000 steps per day number was,

00:37:27.900 | we all heard that.

00:37:28.800 | And then I learned that 10,000 was just kind of thrown out

00:37:31.620 | as an arbitrary number.

00:37:32.840 | So we're like the eight hour intermittent fasting thing.

00:37:35.220 | There's a story behind that.

00:37:36.540 | 'Cause actually I spoke to such in and it turns out

00:37:38.880 | that the graduate student in his lab

00:37:40.300 | that did that initial study, which was on mice by the way,

00:37:43.840 | was limited to being in lab for about eight hours

00:37:46.880 | by their significant other.

00:37:48.200 | So the eight hour feeding window is actually the consequence

00:37:50.660 | of this person's relationship.

00:37:52.360 | - That is a really great point that people don't realize

00:37:56.060 | when they, a lot of people will try to copy

00:37:58.240 | like scientific studies and I'll tell people like,

00:38:01.400 | "Listen, scientific studies are so confined.

00:38:06.140 | "You need to be very careful with how broadly you apply

00:38:09.280 | "what's in there."

00:38:10.120 | Right, like they're a very big hammer

00:38:12.740 | is kind of the way I look at it.

00:38:14.020 | Okay, they're not a scalpel, they're a big hammer.

00:38:16.500 | And I think a lot of times in terms of coaching,

00:38:19.460 | scientific studies will tell you what not to do

00:38:21.900 | rather than what to do, right?

00:38:24.700 | But getting back to your question about like exercise,

00:38:26.660 | appetite, so first off, I'm not really aware

00:38:29.980 | if there's evidence showing like differential effects

00:38:33.940 | of different forms of exercise on appetite.

00:38:35.860 | It's possible, but again, it also could be

00:38:40.660 | like a placebo effect, right?

00:38:41.900 | Because we, like for example, you and I grew up in an era

00:38:45.300 | where the muscle magazines, it was like,

00:38:46.900 | "Well, as soon as you finish your workout,

00:38:48.080 | "you're gonna have your biggest meal of the day," right?

00:38:50.480 | And you know, when I say placebo effect,

00:38:53.300 | I think people have the wrong idea

00:38:55.740 | of what the placebo effect is.

00:38:57.560 | They think that's just a feeling.

00:38:59.620 | Placebo effect can actually change your physiology.

00:39:02.220 | People don't realize this.

00:39:04.820 | There's research showing that a placebo

00:39:07.040 | or the power of suggestion is basically as powerful

00:39:10.200 | as some pharmaceuticals.

00:39:11.900 | And one of the great examples I like to use

00:39:14.660 | is actually there was a study we just covered

00:39:16.180 | in our research review on creatine

00:39:18.500 | where they did four groups, not supplement with creatine,

00:39:23.500 | told they weren't supplemented with creatine,

00:39:25.860 | not supplemented, told they were supplemented,

00:39:28.060 | supplemented, told they weren't,

00:39:29.880 | supplemented, told they were.

00:39:31.340 | Basically, it just matters what they told them.

00:39:34.500 | - Really? - Oh, yeah.

00:39:35.500 | - This is incredible.

00:39:37.160 | I have to get this study so we can link to it.

00:39:39.740 | A colleague of mine at Stanford, she's been on the podcast.

00:39:42.420 | I'd love to introduce you to you

00:39:43.340 | 'cause I think you guys, we could really riff.

00:39:45.340 | First of all, she was a former D1 athlete

00:39:48.060 | and then runs a lab at Stanford in psychology.

00:39:50.740 | This is Leah Crum.

00:39:52.540 | And she's, and grew up in this, you know,

00:39:56.120 | very athletic, obviously, and very, very smart.

00:39:58.740 | And her laboratory focuses on these belief/placebo effects

00:40:02.140 | where if you tell people all the horrible things

00:40:03.980 | that stress do to you in terms of your memory

00:40:06.020 | and cognitive functioning, and then you give them

00:40:07.620 | a memory test, they perform well below baseline.

00:40:10.780 | If you tell them that stress sharpens them

00:40:12.360 | in the short term and that adrenaline

00:40:14.100 | is this powerful molecule that can really tune up

00:40:17.220 | a number of memory systems, memory improves.

00:40:19.580 | And it's remarkable.

00:40:22.100 | And it's consistent.

00:40:23.060 | And this, and they've done this for any number

00:40:25.700 | of different things, including food allergies,

00:40:27.860 | for instance, you know, incredible results.

00:40:30.260 | In any case, I'm so glad you're bringing this up.

00:40:33.940 | I take creatine monohydrate and I have for years,

00:40:37.380 | five grams a day, I don't look--

00:40:38.860 | - It's great.

00:40:39.700 | - And it's great, and I believe it's great.

00:40:41.900 | So is there a compound effect of believing it's great

00:40:45.340 | and it actually being great?

00:40:47.500 | - Not in this study, but so I think the thing to point out,

00:40:50.300 | people will misinterpret that as creatine doesn't work.

00:40:53.620 | And that's not what that says.

00:40:54.860 | What it says is your beliefs about what it does

00:40:58.160 | are probably just as powerful as what it does, right?

00:41:01.840 | So they actually did a study, and I don't have the citation,

00:41:05.460 | but it was, I think within the last 10 years,

00:41:08.140 | where they told people they were putting them

00:41:09.300 | on anabolic steroids and wouldn't you know it,

00:41:11.880 | they had better gains, even though they weren't actually

00:41:14.160 | on anabolic steroids, they had better gains

00:41:16.080 | than people that they didn't tell were anabolic steroids.

00:41:18.360 | And that's like hard outcome, strength, lean body mass,

00:41:21.160 | you know, those sorts of things.

00:41:22.880 | So when people say, well, I wouldn't fall

00:41:25.280 | for the placebo effect, it's like, eh,

00:41:27.720 | you don't have to fall for it if you believe it to be true.

00:41:32.240 | The power of belief is very, very powerful.

00:41:35.960 | And as a scientist, I wish sometimes I was ignorant

00:41:38.960 | so that I could subject myself

00:41:40.280 | to the placebo effect more often.

00:41:41.680 | - Yeah, absolutely.

00:41:43.280 | - So kind of getting back to,

00:41:45.320 | that's just a possible explanation of maybe why, you know,

00:41:48.560 | and I'm the same way, like I get done with a workout,

00:41:50.920 | like a resistance training session,

00:41:52.220 | I'm like, I'm ready to eat, right?

00:41:54.480 | Now, if you look at the literature overall on exercise

00:41:57.940 | and appetite, it's not always what you'd expect.

00:42:01.380 | Consistently, it seems to show that exercise actually

00:42:05.440 | has an appetite suppressant effect.

00:42:07.760 | So people don't tend to compensate, at least fully,

00:42:12.320 | for the amount of movement they do.

00:42:15.080 | And there is some evidence that,

00:42:17.100 | you've probably heard people say, well,

00:42:19.800 | exercise is a really poor weight loss tool, right?

00:42:22.000 | Like if you figure out how many calories

00:42:24.840 | you should be burning from it and you do that,

00:42:27.080 | you end up getting less weight loss than you would predict.

00:42:30.440 | - I have a family member who is perfectly happy to eat less,

00:42:33.240 | but doesn't loathe exercise, but dislikes exercise.

00:42:37.780 | And they're of healthy weight,

00:42:40.480 | but I'm always encouraging them to exercise more.

00:42:42.900 | And so this is an ongoing battle

00:42:44.720 | in our sibling relationship.

00:42:46.640 | - Well, one thing I would say is that exercise,

00:42:49.460 | independent of anything that happens with your body weight,

00:42:51.700 | you will be healthier.

00:42:52.780 | So exercise is one of the only things

00:42:55.060 | that will actually improve your biomarkers of health

00:42:57.780 | without even losing weight.

00:42:59.180 | So there's like, it'll improve your insulin sensitivity,

00:43:01.840 | inflammation, all that stuff.

00:43:03.520 | So everybody out there looking for a hack to be healthier,

00:43:07.400 | exercise is the hack, right?

00:43:08.940 | - Yeah, crucial point.

00:43:09.780 | And our mutual friend, Dr. Peter Attia,

00:43:13.920 | I think has gone on record several times now saying that

00:43:16.800 | of all the things that one could take,

00:43:19.320 | NMN, et cetera, metformin, regardless of whether or not

00:43:22.920 | one takes those or doesn't take those,

00:43:24.580 | that the positive effects on longevity

00:43:27.660 | by way of biomarkers from regular exercise

00:43:31.800 | is far outweighs all of those things combined.

00:43:35.360 | Not that those things don't necessarily work,

00:43:37.520 | but we're not going through them in detail now,

00:43:39.360 | but that exercise is by far the best thing we can do

00:43:42.700 | for our health span and lifespan.

00:43:44.440 | - Yeah, absolutely.

00:43:45.320 | I 100% agree.

00:43:47.320 | And when you're talking about weight loss,

00:43:49.760 | people miss the point of exercise, I think.

00:43:52.440 | There's some work that came out from Hermann Ponser as well

00:43:54.780 | that basically showed like,

00:43:56.400 | well, if you do 100 calories from exercise,

00:43:59.140 | you have a like 28 calorie reduction

00:44:02.360 | in your basal metabolic rate in response to that.

00:44:04.680 | So it's kind of like this

00:44:06.080 | constrained energy expenditure model, right?

00:44:08.900 | But what I would say is,

00:44:09.740 | okay, well, there's still a net of 72, right?

00:44:11.440 | So it's still okay.

00:44:14.400 | And the other thing is,

00:44:15.320 | I think the effects of exercise on weight loss

00:44:18.120 | are actually more due to what it does to appetite.

00:44:20.560 | So if you look at people who lose weight

00:44:24.220 | and keep it off for a number of years,

00:44:25.960 | kind of outliers,

00:44:27.320 | because most people don't keep it off for years,

00:44:30.740 | over 70% of them engage in regular exercise.

00:44:33.600 | Of people who do not keep weight loss,

00:44:35.600 | like maintain weight loss,

00:44:37.320 | less than 30% exercise regularly.

00:44:39.700 | So now that's just a correlation.

00:44:41.200 | That doesn't necessarily prove causation.

00:44:43.320 | But there are some pretty compelling studies

00:44:46.800 | showing that exercise increases your sensitivity

00:44:49.520 | to satiety signals.

00:44:51.240 | So basically you can have the same satiety signals,

00:44:53.600 | but you're more sensitive to them when you exercise.

00:44:56.680 | And there's actually a really classic study

00:44:59.000 | from the 1950s in Bengali workers,

00:45:01.960 | where they looked at basically

00:45:05.520 | four different quadrants of activity.

00:45:07.660 | So you had sedentary, lightly active,

00:45:10.120 | moderately active, heavily active.

00:45:13.280 | Basically based on their job choice.

00:45:16.040 | And they didn't have an intervention.

00:45:18.360 | They just wanted to track them and see

00:45:20.080 | how many calories did they actually eat.

00:45:23.040 | So it was like a J-shaped curve.

00:45:25.240 | So the sedentary actually ate more food

00:45:28.600 | than the lightly active or moderately active.

00:45:30.800 | But from lightly active to heavily active,

00:45:34.560 | they almost perfectly compensated

00:45:36.960 | how many calories they should be eating.

00:45:39.320 | So to me, that suggests when you become active,

00:45:42.600 | you can actually regulate your appetite appropriately

00:45:45.540 | or much more appropriately than if you're sedentary.

00:45:47.920 | - And do you think this has to do with changes in the brain,

00:45:50.680 | brain centers that respond to satiety signals

00:45:52.840 | from the periphery and/or do you think it has to do

00:45:57.840 | with changes in blood sugar regulation?

00:46:00.860 | What I was taught,

00:46:01.700 | and I don't know if this is still considered true,

00:46:03.280 | is that spikes in blood sugar will trigger a desire

00:46:05.880 | to eat more, even though it's kind of exactly the opposite

00:46:08.720 | of what you need when you have a spike in blood sugar.

00:46:10.760 | And there's this kind of, and we'll get into this

00:46:12.180 | when we talk about artificial sweeteners,

00:46:13.640 | there's this idea in mind,

00:46:15.120 | I think I adopted perhaps falsely,

00:46:17.480 | that you eat something that's sweet

00:46:19.400 | or that tastes really good

00:46:20.520 | and you are suddenly on the train of wanting to eat more.

00:46:23.740 | And I could imagine how exercise,

00:46:26.580 | if it is increasing the satiety signals,

00:46:29.960 | could be working in a number of different ways.

00:46:32.540 | - Yeah, I think the effect is probably mostly

00:46:36.040 | at the brain level.

00:46:37.120 | You know, the effects on blood sugar

00:46:40.380 | (sighs)

00:46:42.380 | the research out there is not very compelling

00:46:46.220 | for blood sugar driving appetite.

00:46:49.140 | Now, if you become hypoglycemic, yes, you'll get hungry,

00:46:52.980 | but it's a different kind of hunger than like your normal,

00:46:55.780 | like I feel kind of empty and my stomach's growling.

00:46:58.620 | Like those are, they can go together,

00:47:00.620 | but usually like the hypoglycemia is like,

00:47:02.900 | I am hot, I feel like I'm gonna pass out.

00:47:05.500 | Like you wanna eat something

00:47:07.540 | not because your stomach's growling,

00:47:08.780 | but because you know that you just need some fuel.

00:47:11.600 | - It's like you're getting pulled under.

00:47:13.040 | - Oh yeah, absolutely. - I've been there.

00:47:14.400 | I've been there when I've done longer, fast,

00:47:16.980 | something I don't do anymore

00:47:18.400 | and drank a lot of black coffee.

00:47:20.420 | There was probably an electrolyte effect there

00:47:21.980 | because coffee has you excrete sodium

00:47:24.080 | and other electrolytes.

00:47:25.620 | And then just feeling like I needed something,

00:47:27.980 | this whole thing, like I need something,

00:47:29.400 | this kind of desperation.

00:47:31.360 | I never wanna be back here again.

00:47:33.460 | Hypoglycemia is very uncomfortable.

00:47:34.920 | - That's not fun.

00:47:36.000 | - So again, then when they look at

00:47:41.000 | actual randomized control trials

00:47:44.520 | of implementing some exercise

00:47:47.280 | where they're pretty controlled environment,

00:47:50.260 | they typically see people, if anything,

00:47:54.020 | they eat less as opposed to eating more.

00:47:56.420 | Now some people, again, studies report averages, right?

00:47:59.920 | And there's individual data points.

00:48:01.340 | So there are some people who at least anecdotally report

00:48:03.960 | that exercise makes them more hungry.

00:48:06.120 | That's completely valid.

00:48:07.280 | It's now, it could be their beliefs around it,

00:48:10.300 | it could be a number of different things,

00:48:11.600 | but it's important to understand

00:48:12.560 | that there is individual variability.

00:48:14.620 | And I think one of the things

00:48:15.800 | that I've learned to appreciate more

00:48:18.980 | is not trying to separate psychology and physiology.

00:48:23.760 | We do this a lot.

00:48:25.080 | And so, well, I wanna know the physiology,

00:48:26.520 | I don't care about the psychology of it.

00:48:27.980 | And now I'm kind of appreciating more,

00:48:30.520 | psychology is physiology.

00:48:32.480 | You know, like with most things now,

00:48:34.080 | we have kind of the bio-psycho-social model.

00:48:37.320 | And I'll give you an example of this.

00:48:38.720 | A lot of people get really caught up with appetite.

00:48:42.680 | And if we could just suppress people's appetite.

00:48:46.880 | That's part of it.

00:48:48.860 | But people don't just eat 'cause they're hungry.

00:48:51.820 | They eat for a lot of different reasons.

00:48:53.820 | Social reasons, especially.

00:48:56.040 | So can you remember the last social event

00:48:57.600 | you ever went to that didn't have food?

00:48:59.200 | - No. - Right.

00:49:00.800 | If you look at dinner plates from the 1800s,

00:49:03.000 | what about this big?

00:49:04.400 | Now how big are dinner plates?

00:49:05.940 | - The whole buffet. - Right.

00:49:07.520 | - Right, yeah.

00:49:08.360 | - If you, there's situational cues, right?

00:49:12.740 | You're sitting down to watch TV.

00:49:14.160 | Oh, grab some popcorn, grab some snack, whatever.

00:49:16.960 | - I even see this with it.

00:49:17.880 | You know how one person will pick up their phone

00:49:19.680 | and then everyone picks up their phone?

00:49:20.900 | I think there's a similar effect with food.

00:49:22.780 | - Yeah, and same thing, right?

00:49:24.560 | Like how many times have we either done it ourselves

00:49:29.560 | or have been experienced people saying,

00:49:32.200 | oh, you should have some, you should have,

00:49:33.480 | or like alcohol especially, right?

00:49:35.780 | Like people will, I was hanging out with somebody last night

00:49:39.680 | and I had a beer and they just had a water.

00:49:43.520 | And I'm like, I feel no need to try and convince them

00:49:47.520 | to do that with me, you know what I mean?

00:49:49.680 | But as humans, we're kind of herd animals.

00:49:54.200 | Like we don't wanna be doing something

00:49:56.040 | out in isolation on our own.

00:49:57.460 | Now, this is a very tenuous, I guess, belief of mine.

00:50:02.200 | But doing things alone in isolation during kind of

00:50:07.200 | ancestral times, that's gonna set off your alarm system.

00:50:14.540 | 'Cause if you don't have other people,

00:50:15.720 | you can't protect yourself, right?

00:50:17.840 | So typically things were done together in groups.

00:50:21.120 | And I think that's a lot of the reason

00:50:22.840 | why we tend to be just tribal in nature

00:50:25.800 | about a lot of things, right?

00:50:27.940 | So the whole point to that is on the list of reasons

00:50:32.080 | why people eat, I mean, I've gotten to the point

00:50:34.500 | where I think that hunger is actually

00:50:35.860 | not even the main reason people eat.

00:50:38.020 | Stress, lack of sleep.

00:50:40.980 | - Boredom.

00:50:41.820 | - Boredom, absolutely.

00:50:43.840 | So unless we can do something that addresses

00:50:47.020 | all those things, there's a line from a review paper,

00:50:52.020 | this review paper came out in 2011

00:50:53.940 | by a researcher named McLean

00:50:55.220 | and it's the best review paper I've ever read.

00:50:58.340 | It was called Biology's Response to Dieting,

00:51:00.920 | the Emptiness for Weight Regain.

00:51:02.440 | And basically went through all the mechanisms

00:51:04.460 | of these adaptations that happen during fat loss diets

00:51:07.700 | and how biology's response is to try to drive you back

00:51:11.700 | to your previous.

00:51:13.740 | And I'm gonna butcher the quote,

00:51:15.220 | but at the end of the study he said,

00:51:16.980 | "Basically, the body's systems are comprehensive,

00:51:22.780 | "redundant, and well-focused on restoring

00:51:25.680 | "depleted energy reserves."

00:51:27.180 | And any attempt or any kind of strategy for weight loss

00:51:32.180 | that doesn't attempt to address a broad spectrum

00:51:38.860 | of these things is going to fail.

00:51:41.380 | And so that's why when people say,

00:51:43.340 | "Well, just do low carb, you won't be hungry."

00:51:46.260 | I'm like, "Yeah, but people don't just eat

00:51:48.160 | "because they're hungry."

00:51:49.300 | So I think really trying to get outside the box

00:51:53.300 | and think about these things,

00:51:54.660 | and especially when you read some of the literature.

00:51:57.100 | I recently read a systematic review

00:51:59.380 | of successful weight loss maintainers,

00:52:01.720 | which I thought was really interesting.

00:52:04.020 | So they took people who had lost a significant amount

00:52:06.260 | of body weight and kept it off for,

00:52:07.700 | I think it was three years.

00:52:09.460 | And they basically asked them questions

00:52:10.780 | and tried to identify commonalities.

00:52:12.740 | And there were some things that I expected

00:52:14.080 | like cognitive restraint, self-monitoring,

00:52:19.120 | exercise.

00:52:20.920 | And then one of the things they said

00:52:22.280 | that I found really fascinating

00:52:23.500 | was pretty ubiquitous between people.

00:52:26.260 | They said, "I had to develop a new identity."

00:52:29.520 | So are you familiar with Ethan Suplee?

00:52:33.260 | - No.

00:52:34.100 | - So Ethan is an actor.

00:52:35.580 | He's been in like, "Remember the Titans"

00:52:37.440 | and "American History X."

00:52:39.460 | - I certainly saw "American History X."

00:52:41.120 | - Yeah, so he was very large.

00:52:43.400 | Like he was like 550 pounds.

00:52:45.220 | And now he's like 230 and jacked.

00:52:48.080 | - Wait, he was how long?

00:52:49.420 | - 550 pounds.

00:52:50.960 | - Wow.

00:52:51.800 | - And whenever he puts a post on his Instagram

00:52:56.400 | of him training, it'll say, "I killed my clone today."

00:53:01.000 | And I asked him like, "Is this what you're talking about?

00:53:05.320 | Like creating a new identity?"

00:53:07.120 | And he said, "This is exactly what I'm talking about

00:53:09.020 | because I had to kill who I was

00:53:11.060 | because there was no way I was gonna be able

00:53:12.900 | to make long-term changes

00:53:15.220 | if I just didn't become a new person."

00:53:17.660 | Because there's, I mean, and addicts talk about this, right?

00:53:20.220 | Like people who were alcoholics,

00:53:22.280 | they had to get new friends.

00:53:23.860 | They had to hang out at different places

00:53:25.400 | because their entire life had been set up

00:53:28.020 | around this lifestyle for alcohol.

00:53:30.300 | And I would actually argue that eating disorders

00:53:34.540 | or disordered eating patterns is much harder to break

00:53:39.540 | than other forms of addiction.

00:53:41.100 | And think about food addiction.

00:53:43.280 | Well, in some ways, bulimia and anorexia are still addictions.

00:53:48.280 | You can't stop eating.

00:53:52.840 | Like if you're an alcoholic, you can abstain from alcohol.

00:53:55.000 | If you become addicted to, say, cocaine,

00:53:56.900 | you can abstain from that.

00:53:59.540 | You can never abstain from food.

00:54:01.240 | And so now imagine telling a gambling addict,

00:54:04.440 | "Well, you've gotta play this slot a couple times a day,

00:54:08.440 | but no more."

00:54:09.640 | Like that's really challenging.

00:54:12.580 | So yeah, I just like all this stuff,

00:54:16.640 | it's so important to be comprehensive

00:54:18.620 | with how we treat these things.

00:54:20.520 | - These are incredibly important points.

00:54:22.980 | And to my knowledge,

00:54:23.820 | I don't think anyone has really described it

00:54:26.000 | in a cohesive way, the way that you're doing here.

00:54:28.400 | So important for people to understand this

00:54:30.320 | because obviously as a neuroscientist,

00:54:32.100 | I think the nervous system is creating our thoughts.

00:54:35.320 | Our thoughts and feelings are related to psychology.

00:54:37.800 | And therefore, of course,

00:54:38.920 | our physiology and our psychology are one in the same.

00:54:41.400 | It's bi-directional.

00:54:42.320 | Nowadays, there's a lot of interest in brain-body,

00:54:45.560 | in particular gut-brain access,

00:54:48.320 | and we can talk about that.

00:54:49.980 | But I really appreciate that you're spelling out

00:54:52.420 | how there are these different variables.

00:54:54.140 | Each one can account for a number of different things.

00:54:56.360 | Exercise clearly has a remarkably potent effect,

00:54:59.920 | both during the exercise in terms of caloric burn,

00:55:01.920 | overall health, and biomarkers.

00:55:03.240 | And then this is wonderful to learn

00:55:06.060 | that it can increase the sensitivity to satiety signals.

00:55:09.900 | I think that makes, at least in my mind,

00:55:12.220 | places it very high on the list of things

00:55:14.180 | that people should absolutely do,

00:55:16.020 | but that there are other factors too.

00:55:17.980 | And the identity piece is fascinating.

00:55:22.740 | It reminds me also,

00:55:23.580 | your story reminds me also of David Goggins,

00:55:25.440 | who is, he talks about his former, very overweight self,

00:55:29.860 | almost as if it was a different person.

00:55:31.860 | And he uses language that I'm not gonna use here,

00:55:35.600 | but I met David, know David a bit,

00:55:38.020 | and he's every bit as intense and driven

00:55:40.140 | as a remarkable human being as he appears to be online.

00:55:44.040 | He is that guy.

00:55:45.260 | But it does seem like he had to more or less kill off

00:55:48.940 | of a former version of himself,

00:55:50.400 | and continues to do that every day.

00:55:52.500 | And I think what your point about this other fellow

00:55:54.740 | who does it through a similar process,

00:55:59.220 | the word today seems to really matter.

00:56:01.340 | It's not like you defeat this former version of yourself,

00:56:04.260 | and then that person is buried and gone.

00:56:06.800 | You said, "I killed my clone today."

00:56:09.140 | And that's the way that David talks about it also.

00:56:11.380 | So this is a daily process.

00:56:13.300 | And I think this is not just a small detail

00:56:16.740 | in tying together all these things.

00:56:18.100 | I think that what you are describing is fundamental

00:56:21.100 | because we can pull on each one of these variables

00:56:23.240 | and talk about each one of them.

00:56:24.700 | But at the end of the day,

00:56:25.540 | we're a cohesive whole as an individual.

00:56:28.160 | Sorry, you were about to say.

00:56:31.580 | - That gets actually into one of my favorite topics,

00:56:34.100 | which is why do we have such a hard time

00:56:36.980 | with losing weight but more so keeping it off?

00:56:40.000 | Because of obese people,

00:56:42.200 | six out of every seven obese people

00:56:44.200 | will lose a significant amount of body weight in their life.

00:56:47.080 | So why do we still have an obesity problem?

00:56:49.480 | They don't keep it off.

00:56:51.000 | Why don't they keep it off?

00:56:52.720 | When you look at the research,

00:56:54.740 | basically what it suggests is because people think about,

00:56:59.040 | "I'm going to do a diet and I'm gonna lose this weight,"

00:57:01.560 | and they do not give any thought to what happens afterwards.

00:57:04.920 | It's like, think about if you have

00:57:08.380 | some kind of chronic disease or a diabetic.

00:57:11.320 | You can't just take insulin once and that's it.

00:57:13.820 | You gotta take it continuously.

00:57:15.720 | Otherwise, you're gonna have problems.

00:57:17.840 | If you do a diet and you lose 30 pounds, fantastic.

00:57:24.560 | But if you then just go back to all your old habits,

00:57:31.220 | you're gonna go back to where you were, if not more,

00:57:33.900 | you can't create a new version of yourself

00:57:36.980 | while dragging your old habits and behaviors behind you.

00:57:40.080 | So what I'll tell people is,

00:57:42.320 | 'cause people say, "Well, I'm doing a carnivore diet,"

00:57:45.260 | or, "I'm doing this diet or that diet,"

00:57:47.320 | and I'll say, "That's fine.

00:57:49.400 | "Do you see yourself doing that for the rest of your life?"

00:57:52.080 | And if the answer is yes,

00:57:53.320 | if you really believe that that's gonna be sustainable

00:57:55.800 | for you, and plenty of people,

00:57:57.540 | low carb, intermittent fasting, whatever,

00:57:59.600 | they say, "It felt easy.

00:58:01.480 | "I could do this forever."

00:58:03.420 | Great.

00:58:04.260 | If you're going to lose weight,

00:58:07.320 | you have to invoke some form of restriction,

00:58:09.440 | whether it is a nutrient restriction,

00:58:11.160 | like low carb, low fat, a time restriction,

00:58:14.620 | intermittent fasting, any form of time-restricted eating,

00:58:17.480 | or calorie restriction, tracking macros, whatever.

00:58:21.200 | So you get to pick the form of restriction.

00:58:24.700 | So pick the form of restriction

00:58:26.660 | that feels the least restrictive to you

00:58:29.160 | as an individual, and also do not assume

00:58:32.500 | that it will feel the same for everybody else,

00:58:34.480 | because I made this mistake,

00:58:36.320 | where it's like, I track things.

00:58:38.480 | And so I allow myself to eat a variety of foods.

00:58:40.880 | I allow myself to eat some fun foods.

00:58:43.200 | But I track everything,

00:58:44.320 | and I'm able to modify my body composition

00:58:46.960 | and be in good health doing that.

00:58:48.440 | Now, it doesn't feel hard for me.

00:58:50.820 | Part of it's I've just been doing it for so long.

00:58:53.680 | But to other people, that's very stressful.

00:58:55.640 | They don't want to, they say,

00:58:56.480 | I'd rather just not eat for 16 hours.

00:58:59.600 | If that feels easy for them, do that,

00:59:02.000 | because the one thing that,

00:59:03.320 | there was a couple of meta-analysis on popular diets,

00:59:07.280 | and basically what they showed

00:59:08.320 | was they were all equally terrible

00:59:09.480 | for long-term weight loss.

00:59:12.000 | But when they stratified them by adherence,

00:59:16.440 | and none of them were better for adherence overall,

00:59:19.080 | but when they stratified people

00:59:20.360 | just according from lowest adherence to best adherence,

00:59:23.320 | it was a linear effect on weight loss.

00:59:25.740 | So really what it says is,

00:59:28.320 | what is the diet that's gonna be easiest

00:59:30.160 | for you to adhere to in the long-term,

00:59:32.820 | and you should probably do that.

00:59:35.120 | And people, again, this is where I step back

00:59:38.180 | and take the 10,000-foot view,

00:59:40.280 | somebody will say, well, I'm gonna do ketogenic

00:59:43.180 | because I want to increase my fat oxidation

00:59:45.160 | and I want to do this,

00:59:46.000 | and they're talking about all these mechanisms

00:59:47.320 | and everything, and that's great.

00:59:48.960 | Can you do it for the rest of your life, right?

00:59:52.400 | Is this gonna be something sustainable for you?

00:59:54.680 | And if the answer is no,

00:59:56.620 | you probably need to rethink

00:59:57.820 | what your approach is gonna be.

00:59:59.740 | - It's incredibly important message.

01:00:03.040 | Basically that.

01:00:06.080 | If I could highlight,

01:00:07.060 | if there was a version of highlight or boldface

01:00:09.180 | and underline in the podcast space,

01:00:11.800 | I would highlight boldface and underline what you just said.

01:00:14.980 | And for those of you that heard it,

01:00:17.500 | listen to it twice and then go forward

01:00:19.260 | because it's absolutely key.

01:00:20.900 | I think it also explains a lot of the so-called controversy

01:00:24.660 | that exists out there.

01:00:25.620 | I think it also crosses over with the placebo effect.

01:00:28.460 | I almost want to say pick the nutrition plan

01:00:32.200 | that you think you can stick to for a long period of time,

01:00:35.800 | ideally forever, and pick your placebo too,

01:00:38.340 | because there is a lot of placebo woven into each

01:00:41.140 | and every one of these things, intermittent fasting,

01:00:43.780 | keto, probably even vegan versus omnivore versus carnivore.

01:00:49.300 | - Well, they even talk about the diet honeymoon period,

01:00:53.100 | where you go into a diet

01:00:54.420 | and you're all fired up about it.

01:00:55.740 | Like you're very adherent.

01:00:56.860 | And then what happens with every single diet,

01:00:59.400 | without exception in research studies,

01:01:01.180 | is once you get past a few months,

01:01:02.700 | adherence just starts waning and going off.

01:01:05.100 | - Here we are really talking about a form of relationship.

01:01:08.340 | I'm not saying that to be tongue in cheek.

01:01:11.020 | Actually, we had a guest early on in the podcast,

01:01:13.260 | Dr. Carl Deisseroth, he's a psychiatrist

01:01:15.560 | and bio engineer at Stanford,

01:01:18.280 | tremendously successful Lasker award winner, et cetera.

01:01:20.860 | And he talked about love as a sort of an interesting aspect

01:01:25.780 | of our psychology where it's a story

01:01:28.780 | that you co-create with somebody,

01:01:30.460 | but that you live into the future of that story.

01:01:33.020 | You know, when you pair up with somebody

01:01:34.960 | that we just referring to romantic love,

01:01:37.000 | that there's this sort of mutual agreement

01:01:39.100 | to create this idea that you're going to live into.

01:01:42.240 | So it's not just about how you feel in the moment,

01:01:43.860 | it's also that you project into the future quite a lot.

01:01:46.800 | I'm seeing a lot of parallels with a highly functional

01:01:50.280 | and effective diet and I love it.

01:01:53.120 | I'm not setting this parallel up artificially.

01:01:55.700 | I'm setting up because I think that ultimately

01:01:57.460 | it was down to what you said earlier,

01:01:59.440 | which is that the brain and our decisions

01:02:01.320 | about what we are going to stick to

01:02:02.660 | are tremendously powerful.

01:02:04.280 | - And I think one thing I will say is like, keep in mind,

01:02:08.420 | when you look at the research data,

01:02:10.780 | the meta-analyses on say time restricted eating versus non,

01:02:14.660 | when calories are equated,

01:02:16.120 | doesn't seem to be a difference in weight loss,

01:02:18.160 | fat loss, and most biomarkers of health.

01:02:20.780 | Same thing for low carb versus low fat,

01:02:23.120 | if you equate calories and protein.

01:02:24.680 | There was a meta-analysis done by Kevin Hall back in 2017,

01:02:28.360 | where they looked at the, and again,

01:02:29.960 | actual loss of body fat.

01:02:32.200 | And another important point was,

01:02:34.560 | I think there was 22 studies in this,

01:02:35.920 | but all of them provided food to the participants, right?

01:02:39.280 | That's important because that ensures

01:02:41.840 | that adherence can be much higher in those studies.

01:02:43.640 | Whereas like various free living studies,

01:02:45.600 | sometimes you can see funky results.

01:02:47.360 | People are sneaking food or they're just not really

01:02:51.400 | eating the way that the study would ideally have to be.

01:02:54.960 | - Unless the person is getting like continuous support,

01:02:58.040 | like studies where they have a dietician

01:02:59.660 | talk to people like every week,

01:03:01.560 | tend to actually have pretty good adherence.

01:03:03.380 | But I mean, that's expensive to have done the study.

01:03:05.440 | And again, like what limits studies?

01:03:07.440 | Money, money, and money, right?

01:03:09.420 | But the low carb versus low fat,

01:03:14.720 | when protein and calories are equated,

01:03:16.080 | basically no difference in fat loss.

01:03:18.760 | Now, some people get upset about this,

01:03:20.220 | but it's like, well, to me, that's like, this is great

01:03:22.380 | because you get to pick the tool you want.

01:03:24.320 | That one tool, it doesn't seem to be

01:03:25.820 | that much better than another.

01:03:26.840 | So pick the one that works for you, right?

01:03:28.960 | Whatever lever you've got to pull,

01:03:30.240 | you've got a bunch of different options.

01:03:32.040 | - You mentioned picking something you can stick to

01:03:35.440 | for a period of time.

01:03:36.700 | Is there ever a case for someone saying,

01:03:39.140 | look, I like to eat low carb or even keto for six months

01:03:43.560 | and then switch to a more standard omnivore,

01:03:46.200 | caloric maintenance type diet, and then switch back?

01:03:49.040 | Is there any downside to doing that for sake of health

01:03:51.920 | or weight loss over time or weight maintenance over time?

01:03:54.640 | 'Cause I realize not everyone is trying to lose weight.

01:03:56.840 | And I definitely want to talk about at some point

01:03:59.000 | how to eat to maintain weight.

01:04:00.840 | 'Cause I think there are a significant fraction

01:04:03.200 | of people out there who are trying to do that.

01:04:04.840 | Yeah, is there anything,

01:04:06.000 | is there any downside to being a dabbler, you know,

01:04:10.000 | keto for a few months

01:04:11.040 | and then omnivore for a few months, et cetera?

01:04:14.440 | - I think that's actually a great thing,

01:04:16.080 | especially to like maybe find what you feel

01:04:18.280 | is easiest for you, right?

01:04:19.900 | But in terms of like as a strategy, I mean, I guess,

01:04:24.320 | you know, some people, this might get into dopamine,

01:04:27.480 | but like, oh, change and get something new.

01:04:29.880 | And like, you know, you feel a bit more positive about it.

01:04:31.720 | - The new partner model.

01:04:32.640 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:04:33.680 | So I don't think it's how I would usually set things up

01:04:37.640 | initially for somebody, but if somebody said,

01:04:39.720 | hey, I'd just like to have some variety and change it up,

01:04:42.640 | as long as they're still like, you know, their behaviors

01:04:45.760 | and they're doing portion control or whatever it is,

01:04:48.400 | and they're able to sustain a calorie deficit

01:04:50.480 | or, you know, depending on whatever their goal is,

01:04:52.560 | I don't think there's really any downside to it.

01:04:54.660 | I do think the one thing to keep in mind is

01:04:57.360 | when you look at like going between extremes,

01:04:59.400 | so like low fat to low carb or vice versa,

01:05:04.160 | there can be in that transition period

01:05:07.520 | a little bit of weirdness for lack of a better term.

01:05:11.240 | Like for example, if you've been on a ketogenic diet

01:05:14.060 | and all of a sudden you move to like a higher carb diet,

01:05:18.000 | you'll be like basically insulin resistant

01:05:20.800 | for just a short period of time.

01:05:22.680 | Now, is that gonna cause any health problems?

01:05:24.640 | Probably not in the longterm,

01:05:26.560 | especially if you're still controlling calories.

01:05:29.040 | But just because your body has kind of like

01:05:31.880 | up-regulated these systems,

01:05:33.320 | dealing mostly with fat and glucose production

01:05:37.600 | rather than glucose metabolism.

01:05:39.360 | So now if you start taking glucose or carbohydrate back in,

01:05:43.040 | like for example, you get somebody,

01:05:44.200 | or a glucose tolerance test after they've been on keto,

01:05:47.520 | they'll do pretty terribly at it.

01:05:49.600 | But that doesn't last that long.

01:05:50.820 | - About how long?

01:05:52.200 | - Few weeks.

01:05:53.040 | - I think that's important for people to know

01:05:54.880 | because I have a feeling during those first few weeks

01:05:58.040 | or the period of time when a lot of people go running back

01:06:00.720 | to what they were doing previously,

01:06:02.240 | which is not to say that they shouldn't,

01:06:04.020 | but I've certainly done that.

01:06:05.600 | I've tried very low carbohydrate diet

01:06:08.180 | and I would have assumed,

01:06:09.400 | and now I know I'm completely wrong,

01:06:11.280 | but I assumed that I was so carbohydrate starved

01:06:15.000 | for so long that my insulin sensitivity,

01:06:18.020 | which is a good thing by the way, folks,

01:06:19.840 | would have gone through the roof

01:06:21.480 | and I would be able to just sponge up every bit of glucose

01:06:24.160 | that I would have ingested through carbohydrate.

01:06:26.000 | So I did indeed switch over

01:06:27.640 | and I felt like I had pretty terrible brain fog.

01:06:29.980 | I even got some jitters and I thought,

01:06:31.320 | wait, what is this?

01:06:32.460 | My blood sugar was low before,

01:06:33.920 | now my blood sugar should be in more moderate territory.

01:06:37.000 | But based on what you just said,

01:06:38.740 | I had upregulated the enzymes and systems in the body

01:06:42.520 | for fat metabolism on the keto diet.

01:06:44.980 | And then switching over,

01:06:46.220 | there was basically a ramping up

01:06:48.800 | of the molecules involved in presumably in glycolysis.

01:06:53.140 | - Transition period.

01:06:53.980 | I mean, think about like,

01:06:54.820 | if you haven't weight trained before

01:06:55.840 | and you start weight training,

01:06:56.680 | you're going to feel pretty terrible, right?

01:06:57.920 | Like you're going to be sore and stiff

01:06:59.460 | and all that kind of stuff.

01:07:00.720 | But I will say you aren't necessarily wrong

01:07:03.220 | in what you said about being more insulin sensitive

01:07:05.140 | because it depends on how you measure insulin sensitivity.

01:07:09.120 | So if you measure with something like fasting blood glucose

01:07:14.120 | or fasting insulin or even HOMA-IR,

01:07:17.240 | those tend to be pretty good on low carb.

01:07:19.840 | But then if you do an oral glucose tolerance test,

01:07:21.760 | it tends to be pretty bad.

01:07:23.080 | And so it depends on your specific measure, right?

01:07:27.400 | So I think that the idea that keto makes you

01:07:32.280 | glucose intolerant or insulin resistant,

01:07:36.320 | I think, again, it's just a transition period

01:07:39.160 | and I'm not too worried about it.

01:07:40.440 | But there is something important to keep in mind.

01:07:42.320 | And one of the reasons,

01:07:43.160 | like if somebody was to transition out of keto,

01:07:45.340 | typically if like I'm working with them

01:07:47.420 | or one of our coaches are working with them,

01:07:49.200 | we'll kind of instruct them to do it like slowly

01:07:52.080 | and kind of systematically

01:07:53.120 | over like a four to eight week period.

01:07:55.280 | That way, hopefully, they're not having that period

01:07:57.720 | of two weeks where they're like,

01:07:58.600 | "Oh man, why do I feel so terrible?"

01:08:01.760 | - Very important point.

01:08:03.760 | I want to go to the other end,

01:08:06.320 | literally and figuratively,

01:08:07.720 | and talk about gut health.

01:08:09.920 | Because up until now, and certainly--

01:08:12.040 | - I see what you did with that pun.

01:08:13.360 | - And certainly in the last few minutes,

01:08:16.820 | we've been talking a lot about sort of top-down processes,

01:08:19.320 | you know, the brain, the psychology, placebo effects,

01:08:22.820 | but the very real aspects of those,

01:08:25.040 | not that I can imagine 2,000 calories is 1,000 calories

01:08:28.620 | and somehow change the law of thermodynamics.

01:08:30.500 | Can't do that.

01:08:31.340 | But we've been sort of top-down

01:08:32.460 | in integrating a lot of different ideas

01:08:34.840 | into weight loss maintenance and weight gain.

01:08:38.160 | But gut health,

01:08:39.600 | at least the more popular studies on gut health,

01:08:43.020 | have blown a lot of things out of the water.

01:08:46.240 | For instance, this idea that you could take obese mice

01:08:49.080 | and literally give them fecal transplants from lean mice.

01:08:52.240 | And yes, that sounds like what it sounds like.

01:08:54.760 | Fecal transplants definitely inserted

01:08:59.200 | through the same end in which it comes out.

01:09:01.160 | And I point that out because a lot of people

01:09:02.360 | would ask me that, you know, it was kind of scary to me.

01:09:04.820 | I thought, yes, this is not about ingesting feces.

01:09:07.720 | This is, they literally do a transplant

01:09:11.080 | of feces from lean mice into obese mice,

01:09:13.520 | and the obese mice get lean.

01:09:14.800 | And yes, this has been done in humans,

01:09:17.440 | limited number of studies,

01:09:18.480 | and observed some pretty impressive effects on weight loss

01:09:21.880 | that I have to assume could be related to placebo effect.

01:09:26.180 | They might've told these obese people,

01:09:27.680 | hey, look, you're gonna get lean

01:09:28.700 | through this fecal transplant from lean people.

01:09:30.760 | But more likely, it had some effect

01:09:34.080 | on their core physiology.

01:09:36.360 | I don't know which aspects,

01:09:37.560 | although I can speculate which ones.

01:09:39.960 | And they became leaner, they lost weight.

01:09:42.800 | And that is, in some sense, miraculous,

01:09:45.640 | especially given the important role of psychology

01:09:48.360 | and exercise and satiety signals,

01:09:50.000 | because I'm going to assume that they controlled

01:09:52.160 | for a number of those other variables,

01:09:53.760 | although no study is perfect.

01:09:55.440 | What are your thoughts about gut health

01:09:57.500 | as it relates to metabolism, energy utilization, and balance?

01:10:02.500 | - Yeah, so the first thing I'll say

01:10:03.840 | is I'm not a gut health expert,

01:10:06.000 | but I feel relatively comfortable talking about it

01:10:09.520 | based on conversations I've had with people who are experts,

01:10:12.040 | one being Suzanne Devkota,

01:10:15.440 | who's, are you familiar with her?

01:10:17.660 | - Well, she's sort of a phenom in this area,

01:10:19.660 | from what I understand.

01:10:20.500 | - So she was actually doing her master's

01:10:21.940 | when I was doing my PhD in layman's lab.

01:10:23.680 | So she was one of my lab mates.

01:10:24.920 | - Terrific.

01:10:26.440 | - And, you know, the other thing to say is

01:10:31.000 | even gut health experts, and Suzanne will tell you this,

01:10:35.160 | they're like, you know, talk to me in 20 years.

01:10:37.420 | We just know so little.

01:10:39.120 | I think that's an overall thing

01:10:40.760 | that people don't understand,

01:10:41.880 | is the scientific consensus moves very, very slow.

01:10:45.720 | And probably for good reason,

01:10:47.240 | because if we just flipped our scientific consensus

01:10:50.440 | based on one study, I mean, it would be a mess, right?

01:10:55.140 | So it's gonna take time before you really understand

01:10:58.800 | the implications of the gut and what it means.

01:11:03.800 | So when it comes to weight loss,

01:11:09.160 | there probably is a role in there.

01:11:11.000 | I mean, we've seen that there's something going on.

01:11:13.800 | Now, whether that's, is it something where

01:11:18.800 | a gut microbiome makeup that's more obese resistant,

01:11:24.240 | perhaps it extracts less calories

01:11:26.600 | out of the food you eat, right?

01:11:28.480 | Or perhaps it's elevating BMR.

01:11:31.560 | Although I think that that's probably somewhat unlikely.

01:11:34.160 | - Do you think it could impact

01:11:35.760 | the way satiety signals are, I mean,

01:11:38.280 | back to the brain again is the question.

01:11:40.200 | We know that there's a link in the gut brain axis.

01:11:43.800 | And so my suspicion is that it probably is

01:11:48.040 | working via appetite regulation.

01:11:50.440 | So that, I mean, if we look at the most effective

01:11:54.600 | obesity treatments out there, which is like semaglutide,

01:11:59.020 | I mean, you consistently see a 15%,

01:12:03.560 | on average loss of body weight, which is massive,

01:12:05.640 | and people keep it off, that is a GLP-1 memetic,

01:12:09.200 | which is a gut hormone.

01:12:10.880 | And it basically just is a very,

01:12:14.080 | very powerful appetite suppressant.

01:12:16.360 | - Not, well, I guess I'm interrupting,

01:12:18.000 | but hopefully with a purpose.

01:12:19.960 | There's this really interesting study

01:12:21.640 | and it's in mice admittedly,

01:12:23.160 | but published in a neuroscience journal recently.

01:12:25.520 | And the basically the takeaway is that

01:12:27.920 | like so many things in neuroscience,

01:12:29.720 | the GLP-1 works in two parallel pathways.

01:12:32.920 | In the brain, it seems to impact neurons

01:12:34.900 | in the hypothalamus that control satiety.

01:12:36.480 | So exactly what you're saying.

01:12:38.220 | And in the gut, it seems to create an activation

01:12:42.440 | of the mechanosensors in the gut.

01:12:44.300 | So the perception is that the gut is full or fuller,

01:12:48.580 | I should say, not full,

01:12:49.620 | because I think people who take semaglutide

01:12:51.380 | don't feel bloated.

01:12:53.080 | I don't know, they might,

01:12:54.100 | but that one feels as if their gut is actually fuller

01:12:58.020 | because these mechanosensors that stretch

01:13:00.240 | are sending signals to the brain.

01:13:01.420 | Oh, I actually have some food.

01:13:02.680 | I'm not empty down there.

01:13:04.160 | Anyway, I'm tickled by this result,

01:13:07.420 | mostly because every time I hear about a drug

01:13:10.000 | or a molecule having effect,

01:13:11.720 | we think it has an effect at one location,

01:13:13.800 | but it's kind of interesting that,

01:13:15.400 | especially for something like appetite regulation,

01:13:18.480 | that it would be impacting body and brain in parallel.

01:13:20.480 | Anyway, forgive me.

01:13:21.320 | - That's okay. - You can tell I'm,

01:13:22.480 | I'm really excited about this.

01:13:25.500 | And here you are telling a neuroscientist, me,

01:13:28.640 | that a lot perhaps circles back

01:13:31.880 | to these brain mechanisms of satiety.

01:13:33.880 | - Yeah, I mean, I think that,

01:13:37.520 | and especially looking at the research on leptin,

01:13:41.020 | you know, like we used to think, okay,

01:13:43.880 | metabolism is mostly like liver-based,

01:13:47.580 | and then, you know, there's, you know,

01:13:50.580 | metabolism in the adipocyte and skeletal muscle,

01:13:53.420 | but none of this stuff exists in isolation.

01:13:55.500 | There's so much crosstalk between these pathways.

01:13:57.860 | And that's, you know, when we get into mechanisms,

01:14:01.140 | the one of the things, I love mechanisms,

01:14:04.340 | but one of the things I tell people is keep in mind

01:14:06.320 | that when you're dealing with an outcome, right,

01:14:08.520 | so like when I say outcome-based,

01:14:10.840 | we're talking about physical outcomes,

01:14:12.360 | like weight loss, fat loss,

01:14:14.860 | changes in blood markers, whatever,

01:14:16.920 | that is the summation of thousands of different mechanisms.

01:14:22.640 | So sure, sometimes you can affect a mechanistic pathway

01:14:27.140 | and you get kind of straight down the line outcome,

01:14:29.660 | but not always.

01:14:31.140 | You know, whenever you make a treatment or, you know,

01:14:35.020 | kind of anything into the system,

01:14:36.900 | it's like throwing a pebble in a lake, right,

01:14:39.540 | it creates ripples.

01:14:41.080 | And we don't always know what those are gonna be, right?

01:14:45.100 | And that's why, I mean, we've seen, you know, certain drugs,

01:14:48.860 | well, it works on this pathway,

01:14:50.700 | and then they list off all the side effects,

01:14:52.140 | and you go, well, how would it create

01:14:53.020 | that many side effects?

01:14:53.900 | It's because nothing, for the most part,

01:14:57.100 | they don't just work in one place.

01:14:59.100 | There's a multitude of places it works.

01:15:01.840 | And to your point about semi-glutide

01:15:05.220 | and the effects on mechanosensors,

01:15:08.580 | it's probably why a lot of people report

01:15:10.240 | actually kind of like low-grade nausea

01:15:12.340 | when they're using semi-glutide, because of that.

01:15:16.580 | Because if you're, you know, that feeling

01:15:19.220 | is usually not like a real comfortable feeling,

01:15:21.120 | but I mean, it will get you to not eat.

01:15:23.600 | So I think there's absolutely likely a connection

01:15:28.780 | but we haven't fully elucidated how that works.

01:15:31.540 | And when you think about how complicated the gut is,

01:15:34.460 | I think I heard something like there's more, you know,

01:15:36.940 | there's more cells in our microbiome by far

01:15:39.820 | than there are in our body.

01:15:41.100 | So we're actually more, in terms of a cell-per-cell level,

01:15:44.900 | we're actually more bacteria than we are eukaryote, right?

01:15:47.980 | - There's Justin Sonnenberg,

01:15:49.460 | who's one of the world experts on microbiome.

01:15:51.180 | He's in the lab upstairs from mine at Stanford.

01:15:53.460 | And he has this idea, it's just an idea,

01:15:56.820 | that because we are indeed more bacteria than we are cells,

01:15:59.960 | the question is who's the host and who's the passenger?

01:16:02.940 | You know, like maybe we are just,

01:16:04.820 | maybe they're exploiting us to take them around

01:16:07.240 | and interact because they interact and grow on one another.

01:16:10.400 | And so this idea, this freaks people out.

01:16:12.220 | Lex Friedman will love this,

01:16:13.300 | that maybe human beings are just actually the vehicles

01:16:15.840 | for the microbiome and not the other way around.

01:16:18.780 | Anyway, kind of a scary thought.

01:16:21.440 | Do you do anything specifically

01:16:24.020 | to support your gut microbiome?

01:16:26.020 | Are you a probiotic guy or a fermented foods guy

01:16:28.940 | or a fiber guy?

01:16:30.180 | - So again, I'm gonna kind of go straight down the line

01:16:33.460 | from what I've heard from Suzanne and other experts.

01:16:35.440 | So if you want to improve gut health,

01:16:37.780 | one of the biggest levers,

01:16:40.620 | the three biggest levers you can pull

01:16:42.060 | is not eating too many calories, exercising.

01:16:46.220 | There is a connection between exercise in the gut and fiber.

01:16:50.080 | So we, it is, of the things we know,

01:16:55.320 | dietary fiber seems to positively impact the gut

01:16:58.780 | because it is a, what's called a prebiotic.

01:17:00.900 | So your gut microbiota can take, especially soluble fiber,

01:17:05.680 | although there's actually some evidence,

01:17:07.520 | at least in mice that they,

01:17:08.900 | it might be able to use some insoluble fiber as well.

01:17:12.180 | I think Suzanne was doing a study looking at hemicellulose

01:17:14.740 | and actually seeing that some like specific forms

01:17:17.100 | of microbiota flourish with hemicellulose,

01:17:19.840 | suggesting that they may actually be getting

01:17:21.500 | some kind of fuel out of it, which is really interesting.

01:17:24.660 | But again, in mice, so you know, just huge caveat.

01:17:28.740 | So your gut microbiome can produce

01:17:31.940 | these short chain fatty acids from,

01:17:35.640 | by fermenting this soluble fiber.

01:17:39.700 | And there's quite a bit of evidence

01:17:41.880 | that these volatile fatty acids,

01:17:44.120 | which can be then actually reabsorbed into the liver,

01:17:48.280 | that they have some positive effects.

01:17:50.460 | Like for example, butyrate,

01:17:51.660 | when they've done butyrate supplementation,

01:17:53.100 | they've actually seen positive effects

01:17:54.660 | on insulin sensitivity.

01:17:56.220 | So what we seem to understand is that

01:18:01.220 | more diversity seems to be better,

01:18:04.720 | fiber seems to be positive,

01:18:07.960 | prebiotics seem to work much better than probiotics.

01:18:10.820 | - Supplemented prebiotics.

01:18:12.060 | - Yes, so the problem with most of the probiotics

01:18:15.820 | is they're typically not concentrated enough

01:18:20.140 | to actually colonize.

01:18:21.620 | And even if you do colonize,

01:18:24.100 | what happens is like, let's say you colonize

01:18:27.460 | some microbiota that you didn't really have much of.

01:18:31.020 | If you're not fueling it with the appropriate fiber,

01:18:34.440 | it's not gonna stay anyway,

01:18:36.020 | because it's essentially gonna starve.

01:18:38.260 | So the research seems to really clearly suggest

01:18:41.460 | that eating enough fiber, which is again, a prebiotic,

01:18:45.100 | that that is a better way to get a healthier gut per se

01:18:49.940 | than probiotic.

01:18:51.060 | - What fiber sources do you use?

01:18:53.060 | And I think I realized there's a huge array

01:18:55.420 | of choices out there,

01:18:56.260 | but people will want to have some ideas

01:18:58.260 | as to how they could perhaps mimic what you're doing.

01:19:00.580 | - Yeah, and I would just say diversity, right?

01:19:03.540 | So there's various evidence

01:19:07.760 | from various different fiber sources,

01:19:10.300 | fruits and vegetables, obviously, grains,

01:19:14.340 | some whole grains, some cereals,

01:19:17.380 | and then various other sources.

01:19:19.140 | So this is one of the things where we don't really

01:19:21.500 | have a good idea if this one source of fiber

01:19:24.940 | is better than another source of fiber.

01:19:26.980 | We just know that fiber overall is pretty good.

01:19:28.980 | And one thing I'll tell people is like,

01:19:30.220 | if you want a longevity hack,

01:19:31.940 | I mean, fiber is kind of the longevity hack.

01:19:33.900 | If you look at some of these cohort studies,

01:19:36.420 | there was actually a recent really large meta-analysis

01:19:39.500 | of over a million subjects.

01:19:41.620 | And basically what it showed was

01:19:45.500 | that for every 10 gram increase in fiber,

01:19:48.820 | there was a 10% reduction in the risk of mortality.

01:19:52.660 | And that extended specifically also

01:19:54.820 | to cardiovascular disease and cancer.

01:19:57.940 | So one of the things I'll tell people

01:19:59.420 | when they get like really into,

01:20:01.300 | whether it's intermittent fasting

01:20:02.540 | or a lot of these other things,

01:20:03.640 | they say, that's great, that's great.

01:20:04.620 | Are you eating like over 50, 60 grams of fiber a day?

01:20:07.840 | - And I just conceptualize 50 to 60 grams.

01:20:10.180 | So if I were to eat like a bowl,

01:20:12.820 | like a, let's just say a quarter plate of broccoli,

01:20:17.580 | and the broccoli isn't stacked to the ceiling.

01:20:19.300 | The broccoli is just reasonably stacked on there.

01:20:22.660 | Approximately how many grams of fiber is that?

01:20:24.460 | If it's like two cups of broccoli, which is a lot.

01:20:26.900 | - Yeah, so if you like 200 grams of broccoli per se,

01:20:29.780 | it would probably be like five, six grams of fiber.

01:20:32.020 | - And I need to get how much per day?

01:20:33.860 | - Well, I would say typically what the recommended dose is,

01:20:37.740 | is 15 grams per thousand calories intake.

01:20:40.580 | Because if you're eating low calories,

01:20:43.180 | it's difficult to get enough fiber in.

01:20:45.780 | But based on, and again, these are cohort studies,

01:20:49.620 | but you can't do 20 year long randomized

01:20:51.580 | human control trials, unfortunately.

01:20:53.380 | There doesn't really appear to be a top end,

01:20:57.460 | at least for the benefits of fiber.

01:20:59.100 | It probably boils down to like how much you can tolerate

01:21:01.600 | without feeling uncomfortable, right?

01:21:03.140 | Because if you're eating like a ton of fiber,

01:21:05.920 | I mean, at some point, it's not gonna be very comfortable.

01:21:08.780 | - Exercise becomes uncomfortable or hazardous, yeah.

01:21:12.100 | - And actually I'm kind of touching on that

01:21:15.460 | because I think it is important.

01:21:17.780 | You know, a lot of people have kind of,

01:21:20.060 | in the carnivore community said,

01:21:21.340 | well, you don't need fiber, you poop just fine without it.

01:21:24.460 | And I'll always say, well, pooping is the last reason

01:21:27.280 | to have fiber.

01:21:28.120 | Like, yes, it does help.

01:21:28.980 | It does seem to make elimination easier.

01:21:32.580 | You can do it more frequently, adds bulk to stool.

01:21:35.780 | But that's not why you should eat fiber.

01:21:37.300 | Why you should eat fiber

01:21:38.580 | is because of the effects of mortality.

01:21:41.020 | And you know, some of the pushback will be,

01:21:42.860 | well, this is healthy user bias.

01:21:45.200 | And what I'll say is-

01:21:46.260 | - Meaning healthy people do this

01:21:47.540 | and therefore it's working.

01:21:48.380 | - Healthy people eat more fiber and therefore.

01:21:50.640 | And I mean, yeah, there's something to that.

01:21:52.700 | But if it was just healthy user bias,

01:21:54.820 | typically you would see some disagreement

01:21:56.300 | between the studies.

01:21:57.260 | And a great example of that is like red meat.

01:21:59.500 | So not every study shows red meat

01:22:02.960 | has an association with cancer and mortality.

01:22:04.820 | There's differences depending on the population used,

01:22:07.300 | depending on like what they define as high red meat,

01:22:09.240 | low red meat, whether it's processed, unprocessed.

01:22:12.620 | But I have not found a study on fiber

01:22:15.760 | and cardiovascular disease and cancer and mortality

01:22:20.640 | where it did not show improvements from higher fiber.

01:22:23.560 | So to me, that suggests that that effect is real.

01:22:28.160 | And so again, you know,

01:22:30.160 | as much fiber as you can get in comfortably,

01:22:33.200 | I would try to do it

01:22:34.840 | because it seems to have some really powerful effects

01:22:36.640 | and is good for the gut microbiome.

01:22:39.260 | The other thing that may be a consideration

01:22:41.880 | for the microbiome is there's some evidence

01:22:44.520 | that saturated fat may not be great for the microbiome,

01:22:47.240 | that it reduces the prevalence

01:22:50.980 | of some of the more positive strains of bacteria.

01:22:54.280 | And that appears to be not so much

01:22:56.500 | from the saturated fat itself,

01:22:57.680 | but from the bile end products

01:22:59.640 | that combined with saturated fat

01:23:01.920 | seems to have a negative effect

01:23:03.280 | on some of these more healthier forms of gut microbiota.

01:23:08.240 | But again, this is really difficult

01:23:10.040 | because we don't even know necessarily yet

01:23:13.680 | which species of gut microbiota are positive or negative.

01:23:18.340 | And that's, I mean, this gets into some of these studies

01:23:21.200 | where they may call it dysbiosis.

01:23:23.640 | Sounds scary, but dysbiosis just means that the gut changed.

01:23:28.040 | It doesn't necessarily,

01:23:28.880 | I mean, it doesn't tell you anything qualitative

01:23:31.240 | about whether the change was bad or good.

01:23:33.480 | And so these are just things I think we need to keep in mind

01:23:35.720 | when we talk about this stuff,

01:23:36.600 | that this stuff is still very much in its infancy.

01:23:39.480 | But in terms of the big levers,

01:23:41.760 | I mean, it's pretty much fits

01:23:43.080 | with what we know about a healthy lifestyle.

01:23:44.960 | Exercise, don't eat too much,

01:23:47.680 | consume a good amount of fiber from diverse sources.

01:23:51.960 | - Fantastic.

01:23:53.160 | Fantastic because it fits with what I like to think of

01:23:56.840 | as kind of the center of mass of evidence, right?

01:23:58.960 | And I'm starting to get some window

01:24:00.600 | into what your process is around selection of studies

01:24:03.820 | and no one study being holy.

01:24:05.640 | But when you look at, as you mentioned,

01:24:07.600 | all the studies on fiber having a positive effect

01:24:11.020 | to some degree or another,

01:24:12.280 | it's pretty hard to refute

01:24:13.160 | that there isn't something really interesting there.

01:24:15.340 | - And one thing I'll tell people is like,

01:24:17.920 | you know, one study,

01:24:20.320 | I mean, sometimes I'll change my opinion

01:24:22.780 | based on a single study

01:24:23.640 | when it's really well done and very powerful.

01:24:26.440 | But usually like one study

01:24:27.640 | is just going to move me just a little bit, right?

01:24:29.520 | Then maybe if another one comes out,

01:24:30.720 | move me a little bit more, right?

01:24:31.920 | And then like very slowly, I'm going to get some,

01:24:33.560 | I mean, my experience with LDL cholesterol,

01:24:37.600 | this is something I changed my mind on a while back

01:24:39.800 | when I was younger, like circa 2005,

01:24:42.720 | getting into grad school,

01:24:44.280 | kind of the prevailing thought was,

01:24:45.760 | well, it's not so much the LDL,

01:24:47.680 | it's the ratio of LDL to HDL, that's what matters.

01:24:50.760 | And probably about five years ago,

01:24:54.480 | and I was pretty strong about that opinion.

01:24:56.920 | And then five years ago,

01:24:58.040 | looking at these Mendelian randomization studies,

01:25:00.980 | I kind of went, I can't hold this position anymore.

01:25:03.220 | - What's your new, what is your revised position on LDL?

01:25:06.660 | - So if you look at the research,

01:25:09.140 | HDL is important because it's a marker of metabolic health.

01:25:11.940 | If you have high HDL,

01:25:13.080 | it suggests that you are metabolically quite healthy.

01:25:15.600 | You very rarely will you have high HDL

01:25:17.760 | and like high CRP, which is an inflammatory marker,

01:25:21.420 | or dysregulated blood glucose,

01:25:23.740 | almost exclusively people who have high HDL

01:25:26.340 | will have good biomarkers of metabolic health.

01:25:31.020 | But if you take drugs that raise HDL,

01:25:34.660 | it doesn't reduce your risk of cardiovascular disease.

01:25:37.540 | In Mendelian randomization studies,

01:25:40.360 | which Mendelian randomization

01:25:41.720 | basically uses natural randomization.

01:25:44.340 | So some people are, in the case of HDL,

01:25:47.620 | naturally higher secreters

01:25:48.920 | or naturally lower secreters of HDL.

01:25:51.580 | And we talked about how you can't really do

01:25:54.500 | a 20-year human randomized control trial.

01:25:56.460 | And when you're trying to examine

01:25:57.460 | something like heart disease,

01:25:59.080 | I mean, that is a lifetime exposure issue.

01:26:01.860 | It's very unlikely that you're gonna pick out differences

01:26:04.420 | between treatments in two years or even five years.

01:26:07.300 | I mean, people don't develop,

01:26:08.860 | typically don't develop heart disease

01:26:10.420 | until they're in their 50s, 60s, and 70s.

01:26:13.140 | What Mendelian randomization allows is to say,

01:26:18.120 | okay, we have these people who naturally secrete

01:26:20.680 | more or less so we can stratify those

01:26:23.300 | and look at what is their risk.

01:26:25.580 | So if you look at people who are low secreters of HDL

01:26:28.340 | versus high secreters of HDL

01:26:30.440 | with holding some of the other key variables consistent,

01:26:33.220 | like LDL, you don't see an effect on heart disease really.

01:26:36.460 | - Of LDL?

01:26:37.500 | - Of HDL.

01:26:38.340 | - Got it, okay.

01:26:39.240 | - But when you look at LDL

01:26:41.980 | and you look at the lifetime exposure to LDL,

01:26:45.220 | it is like a linear effect on heart disease.

01:26:47.980 | And we know that it's actually not so much LDL,

01:26:50.900 | but it's more apolipoprotein B,

01:26:53.920 | but that tends to track with LDL just in general.

01:26:57.160 | And if you look at the mechanism,

01:26:58.700 | I mean, we know that LDL can penetrate the endothelium.

01:27:01.540 | So there's the mechanism is present.

01:27:05.180 | If we look at the epidemiology,

01:27:07.320 | it supports that it's an independent risk factor.

01:27:09.640 | And then again, these Mendelian randomization studies

01:27:11.960 | where we can kind of look at people's exposure

01:27:13.680 | over a lifetime.

01:27:15.420 | And then we see that linear kind of dose dependent effect.

01:27:19.120 | To me, that was convincing enough

01:27:21.040 | to change my mind on that particular topic.

01:27:22.820 | And then if you look at like some of the Framingham data,

01:27:26.380 | look at high, if you like stratify,

01:27:30.080 | like high HDL versus low HDL,

01:27:32.980 | both groups looking at high LDL and low LDL.

01:27:37.880 | So if you have high HDL, low LDL,

01:27:41.140 | you will still be lower risk factor

01:27:43.420 | than somebody who has high HDL and high LDL, right?

01:27:46.980 | - So the ratio does matter.

01:27:48.260 | - So the ratio does matter.

01:27:49.160 | Same thing with inflammation.

01:27:50.720 | If you look at people who are low inflammation,

01:27:55.080 | low LDL, they'll have a lower risk

01:27:58.040 | than people who are low inflammation, high LDL.

01:28:00.560 | So again, that was kind of sufficient

01:28:01.920 | for me to change my mind.

01:28:02.760 | But it took, it was like not just one study came out.

01:28:05.240 | It was, okay, then there was another study

01:28:07.180 | and then another study and then another study.

01:28:08.700 | And at a certain point I go, okay,

01:28:10.340 | well now I either have to change my mind

01:28:13.340 | or I'm basically just gonna be cognitively dissonant

01:28:17.580 | and say, nope, I don't believe all that.

01:28:20.320 | And so I think that's one of the things

01:28:22.240 | to keep in mind people will say,

01:28:25.460 | oh, you're saying this is a bad study.

01:28:26.980 | Very rarely will I call something a bad study

01:28:29.580 | because data is just data.

01:28:32.240 | But the issue becomes how it is presented

01:28:35.580 | and how broadly it's applied in the mainstream media

01:28:39.460 | or by people on fitness influencers.

01:28:43.300 | And what I'll do is try to step in and say,

01:28:46.460 | okay, let's consider X, Y, and Z as well.

01:28:50.060 | And then it's not a bad study,

01:28:52.300 | but let's just be careful

01:28:53.140 | about how broadly we imply the interpretation.

01:28:55.860 | - Yeah, well, and I think you are in a very unique

01:28:59.180 | and important position to be able to place things

01:29:01.340 | into their proper context

01:29:03.240 | because of this, for lack of a better word,

01:29:05.920 | holistic view of how the psychology placebo effects

01:29:10.020 | also core physiology relate to one another and so on.

01:29:15.020 | In fact, I think that you're training as a biochemist

01:29:17.860 | and then training in nutrition with somebody who,

01:29:21.860 | Don Lehman, who was pushing you to focus on outcomes.

01:29:24.920 | I think that's a beautiful capture of the continuum

01:29:29.400 | at which one can look at something

01:29:30.520 | because for those of you that don't know out there,

01:29:32.140 | you know a lot of laboratory studies on mice and humans,

01:29:34.540 | for instance, in the realm of biochemistry

01:29:36.580 | or in vitro studies, you'll see a change in some molecule

01:29:39.580 | can be quite traumatic.

01:29:40.500 | And then the assumption is, oh, you just take the drug

01:29:43.060 | that will change that molecule in a particular direction

01:29:45.100 | and then you'll get the effect you want

01:29:46.740 | at the whole organism level.

01:29:49.100 | The person will lose weight, the person will gain muscle,

01:29:51.020 | the animal will not have Alzheimer's, et cetera,

01:29:54.860 | but it just doesn't work that way

01:29:56.420 | because of the redundancy and this interplay.

01:29:59.780 | - Well, a great example of that is,

01:30:01.140 | so my research was actually in rodents.

01:30:03.920 | All my studies on protein metabolism

01:30:06.420 | and leucine in particular is what we were studying.

01:30:09.280 | Well, we know if you give leucine

01:30:10.780 | it increases muscle protein synthesis,

01:30:12.960 | but we also know if you supplement with leucine,

01:30:15.560 | people don't get more muscular.

01:30:17.180 | - I was about to say, all you have to do is supplement

01:30:19.180 | with leucine? - Right, right, right.

01:30:20.380 | And so how is that possible?

01:30:21.580 | Well, you know, muscle building is not just protein synthesis

01:30:24.540 | it's also the balance between synthesis and degradation.

01:30:26.740 | So, and degradation just happens to be

01:30:29.340 | very, very difficult to measure.

01:30:31.180 | But a great example, and again, one of the cool things

01:30:35.260 | about my PhD was actually changed the way I ate,

01:30:37.900 | which I think is interesting.

01:30:39.580 | So before I had been like, I eat eight meals a day,

01:30:42.060 | eat every two hours, try to keep--

01:30:42.900 | - Eight meals a day. - Yeah, when I got

01:30:44.340 | to grad school. - In order to get that 30 grams

01:30:45.940 | of protein per meal. - Get that amino drip

01:30:48.360 | going in was the idea, right?

01:30:49.640 | Like just have an IV hooked up of amino acids.

01:30:52.380 | - Not really, folks. - Not really, yeah.

01:30:55.140 | But that was kind of the concept.

01:30:56.640 | But the first study I did, we basically looked at,

01:31:01.640 | okay, a lot of people had measured the amplitude

01:31:04.880 | of protein synthesis in response to a meal.

01:31:08.080 | We wanted to see how long does this last

01:31:10.520 | and where does it peak, right?

01:31:12.560 | And so my thought was, okay, well,

01:31:14.660 | it'll probably track with plasma leucine.

01:31:17.200 | You give, for those that are not familiar,

01:31:20.840 | leucine is the amino acid that is almost exclusively

01:31:25.020 | responsible for increasing muscle protein synthesis

01:31:27.820 | when you eat protein.

01:31:28.880 | So it's one of the branch chain amino acids.

01:31:31.780 | So we wanted to see, okay, how long does this effect last?

01:31:35.360 | So we fed these animals whey protein.

01:31:38.620 | And again, I thought, okay, well,

01:31:40.360 | however long plasma leucine stays up,

01:31:41.880 | that will be how long protein synthesis stays up.

01:31:46.140 | And so we got the protein synthesis data back

01:31:47.920 | and it was peaked at 90 minutes,

01:31:49.800 | or sorry, peaked from 45 to 90 minutes

01:31:52.640 | and then was back down to baseline by 180 minutes.

01:31:55.200 | And so when I went to do the plasma leucine analysis,

01:31:58.680 | my shock was at three hours,

01:32:01.360 | plasma leucine was still plateaued out.

01:32:03.560 | And I said, okay, well,

01:32:07.040 | when I look at the initiation factors,

01:32:09.160 | that will show me something.

01:32:09.980 | So for those not familiar,

01:32:12.820 | this is part of the mTOR signaling pathway.

01:32:15.040 | So one of the, two of the targets of mTOR,

01:32:18.580 | when it's stimulated, leucine stimulates mTOR.

01:32:21.080 | Two of the targets of mTOR are a protein compound

01:32:24.280 | called 4-eBP1.

01:32:26.560 | And then another one is called ribosomal protein S6K.

01:32:31.560 | So I don't want to get into the specifics about it

01:32:33.960 | 'cause it's kind of beyond the scope,

01:32:35.080 | but basically when these things are phosphorylated by mTOR,

01:32:39.380 | it increases the rate of translation initiation,

01:32:43.360 | which translation initiation is basically the process

01:32:46.140 | of the ribosome hooking on to the mRNA

01:32:48.840 | and then starting protein synthesis.

01:32:51.620 | So I was looking at the phosphorylation of 4-eBP1 and RPS6.

01:32:56.620 | I was like, okay, well, I'll probably see these things

01:33:00.360 | come down at three hours, still plateaued.

01:33:04.240 | And so then it was like, what is, what's going on here?

01:33:06.960 | So I actually kept rerunning the data

01:33:08.720 | and rerunning the data and rerunning the data.

01:33:10.520 | And I'll never forget, I went into layman's office

01:33:12.940 | and this is like six months after we've done this study

01:33:15.080 | 'cause this analysis takes time.

01:33:17.180 | I was like, so where are we with this duration study?

01:33:18.960 | I said, well, I just got to run the plasma data again

01:33:21.100 | because it's not right.

01:33:22.800 | And he's like, well, why is it not right?

01:33:25.700 | And I said, well, it just doesn't make any sense, you know?

01:33:29.100 | And I kind of went through, he's like,

01:33:31.360 | well, describe to me your technique.

01:33:33.860 | Like, how are you doing this?

01:33:34.880 | I described it.

01:33:36.160 | And he said, well, how's your standard error?

01:33:38.260 | And I told him what the numbers were.

01:33:39.280 | He said, it sounds like it's good data.

01:33:41.500 | He said, it sounds like you are trying to get the data

01:33:45.140 | to fit your conclusion and you need to change

01:33:47.860 | your conclusion to fit the data.

01:33:50.020 | And that statement.

01:33:52.020 | - This is why we do PhDs.

01:33:53.380 | - This is why, yeah.

01:33:54.220 | - You need an advisor.

01:33:55.280 | - This is why I'm so skeptical of everything

01:33:58.180 | because I have had so many of my ideas crushed

01:34:01.140 | by my own data, right?

01:34:03.000 | So we actually ended up, this kind of effect,

01:34:08.220 | this phenomenon is called muscle protein

01:34:11.060 | synthetic refractory period.

01:34:13.260 | So basically, like once you trigger the system,

01:34:16.180 | kind of runs for a defined period of time

01:34:18.020 | and then it takes time to essentially reset

01:34:21.340 | for lack of a better term.

01:34:22.340 | It's also been referred to as the muscle full effect.

01:34:24.940 | But so I looked at that and said,

01:34:27.580 | why am I eating every two hours then?

01:34:30.220 | You know, and there was even a study out of Wolf's lab,

01:34:33.260 | like back in '99, I think, where they infused

01:34:36.220 | essential amino acids for six hours.

01:34:38.540 | Protein synthesis went up, peaked at 60 minutes,

01:34:40.900 | came back down at 120 and never went back up again.

01:34:44.140 | - Maybe I'm being naive, but I would have thought

01:34:47.900 | that if protein synthesis goes up and then comes back down,

01:34:52.460 | that eating more often would be exactly the thing

01:34:54.620 | you would want to do if your goal was to get

01:34:56.900 | increased protein synthesis,

01:34:58.100 | because you'd be pinging the system periodically.

01:35:00.780 | - But the problem is the plasma amino acids

01:35:03.420 | are still elevated.

01:35:04.260 | - So it's essentially like eating the whole way through.

01:35:06.140 | - Right.

01:35:06.980 | - From the perspective of leucine.

01:35:07.820 | - From the cells, yeah.

01:35:08.900 | So that was one of those things where I said,

01:35:10.940 | you know what, I'm actually gonna eat less often,

01:35:12.480 | because like if I'm eating and three hours later,

01:35:14.700 | I've still got capped out plasma amino acids.

01:35:18.500 | And we looked at all kinds of stuff.

01:35:20.940 | Like we looked at intracellular leucine just to make sure

01:35:23.180 | that that wasn't falling off, it wasn't.

01:35:25.640 | We looked at all the plasma essential amino acids

01:35:28.180 | because we were thinking, well maybe protein synthesis

01:35:31.480 | is sucking some of these amino acids out of the plasma

01:35:34.460 | and they're dropping and that's causing it

01:35:36.320 | to kind of short circuit the system.

01:35:38.220 | That wasn't the case.

01:35:39.660 | It just, essentially what the evidence suggests,

01:35:43.140 | I think we're the only ones to show this so far.

01:35:45.120 | So I'm not ready to say that this is a real effect

01:35:47.360 | because I hold out the idea that data artifacts do exist

01:35:50.980 | and you can't be totally sure.

01:35:52.660 | But we saw an increase in AMP kinase,

01:35:58.140 | kind of around this mark where protein synthesis

01:36:01.140 | started falling off.

01:36:02.980 | And we also saw a decrease in intracellular ATP.

01:36:06.780 | And protein synthesis is an ATP dependent process.

01:36:10.460 | And so what we think might be happening is

01:36:13.380 | you're consuming protein and you're increasing

01:36:19.580 | muscle protein synthesis and then at a certain point

01:36:24.180 | it has enough effect on your energy metabolism

01:36:28.340 | and your cells that it kind of cuts it off, right?

01:36:33.340 | So again, we're the only ones to show that

01:36:38.380 | that I'm aware of and that was again in rats.

01:36:41.140 | So I always talk about data like there's data

01:36:44.840 | I'm willing to bet my toe on, my foot on,

01:36:48.100 | my leg on and my life on.

01:36:49.440 | I'd probably barely bet the end of my little toe

01:36:51.680 | on that one, I'm not quite sure.

01:36:53.340 | But it's interesting nonetheless.

01:36:54.480 | So that's a great example of, okay,

01:36:58.720 | we're looking at this mechanism of mTOR signaling.

01:37:01.600 | And if we just looked at that we'd say,

01:37:03.440 | oh, well protein synthesis is gonna stay elevated

01:37:05.360 | for past three hours, but that's not what we saw.

01:37:09.260 | So yeah, I think it's again, that's why I really try

01:37:11.840 | to get people to say, well, mechanisms are important.

01:37:16.320 | And especially if you're seeing an outcome,

01:37:18.060 | it's important to identify mechanisms that may explain that.

01:37:21.520 | But let's step back from the mechanisms

01:37:23.340 | from trying to chase mechanisms

01:37:24.900 | and let's look at like chasing outcomes

01:37:26.840 | in terms of what we recommend to people.

01:37:29.240 | - Excellent point.

01:37:30.680 | In terms of chasing outcomes, a number of people I know

01:37:33.600 | are interested in weight loss or weight maintenance.

01:37:36.680 | And several times throughout today's conversation,

01:37:39.440 | we've come back to this issue of satiety signals,

01:37:42.000 | whether or not they're brain-based, body-based or both.

01:37:44.760 | Not wanting to eat more is a great way to maintain

01:37:48.280 | or lose weight because you simply don't want to.

01:37:51.520 | I heard you mentioned earlier that protein

01:37:54.660 | and maybe specific types of protein or sources of protein

01:37:57.720 | may provide better satiety signals

01:38:00.400 | than other macronutrients.

01:38:01.900 | Could you briefly talk about how macronutrients,

01:38:06.580 | including protein, but also carbohydrates and fats

01:38:10.500 | impact satiety and from the standpoint of somebody who,

01:38:14.840 | for instance, would like to quote unquote,

01:38:17.040 | lose a few pounds, right?

01:38:18.240 | Probably would be happy to gain a little bit

01:38:20.200 | of lean body mass provided it was in a particular location

01:38:22.920 | on their body.

01:38:23.760 | That seems to be a thing now,

01:38:25.080 | directed hypertrophy, if you will.

01:38:27.260 | And how much they should focus on protein

01:38:32.100 | as a core component of creating this diet.

01:38:36.200 | Assuming everything else is being done correctly,

01:38:38.300 | they're going to hit the right number of calories

01:38:39.940 | relative to their output, meat, et cetera.

01:38:43.780 | How should we think about protein and satiety signals?

01:38:47.480 | And are animal sources of protein indeed more bioavailable?

01:38:51.880 | That's a tricky word.

01:38:53.360 | For sake of muscle building,

01:38:55.900 | but also for sake of somebody

01:38:57.040 | who just would like to lose body fat.

01:38:59.040 | They don't want to lose muscle

01:39:00.140 | and they'd like to bring their weight down a few pounds.

01:39:02.360 | - So a lot of things- - Or more.

01:39:03.700 | - Yeah, a lot of things to unpack there.

01:39:05.560 | Of the macronutrients, protein is definitely

01:39:07.800 | the biggest lever that you can pull.

01:39:09.280 | Because even if, you know,

01:39:10.640 | it doesn't take a ton of protein

01:39:12.140 | to get a lot of the muscle building benefits.

01:39:13.720 | I mean, I think the benefits really start to plateau out

01:39:16.540 | around 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight.

01:39:19.720 | There's some evidence that maybe even up to like 2.4

01:39:23.380 | or 2.8 grams per kilo may give like

01:39:26.220 | a little bit more benefit.

01:39:27.720 | I think it probably looks something like an asymptote

01:39:30.160 | in terms of a curve where as you put more into the system,

01:39:33.560 | you always get a little bit more,

01:39:35.060 | but it just gets to the point

01:39:36.180 | where it's so infinitesimally small benefit

01:39:38.240 | that it's for all intensive purposes, no benefit.

01:39:41.360 | - But you mentioned 1.6 grams of protein

01:39:43.960 | per kilogram of body weight.

01:39:45.480 | Would you consider that a threshold

01:39:47.420 | that most people should try and achieve daily?

01:39:49.660 | - I see very few downsides to hitting that.

01:39:52.880 | I mean, I know some people,

01:39:54.400 | and this is gonna get into a separate conversation,

01:39:55.940 | but I know some people will say,

01:39:56.780 | "Well, I don't wanna stimulate mTOR

01:39:58.900 | because that's gonna make me die early."

01:40:00.340 | And I think one of the things to keep in mind

01:40:03.600 | is if you look at,

01:40:05.100 | there's kind of this thought process out there

01:40:07.500 | that if you're stimulating mTOR,

01:40:08.700 | that protein is gonna make you die early.

01:40:11.200 | And first off, we have very little human outcome data

01:40:13.660 | to support that claim.

01:40:15.620 | And the second thing is

01:40:16.800 | if you look at any macronutrient isolation,

01:40:18.740 | I can make a mechanistic argument

01:40:20.220 | that it's gonna kill you.

01:40:21.440 | So fat, if you take in fat,

01:40:23.460 | it decreases flow-mediated dilation.

01:40:26.000 | Flow-mediated dilation is important for heart health

01:40:28.660 | in the short term.

01:40:31.200 | Carbohydrates stimulate insulin.

01:40:33.820 | Insulin, pro-inflammatory and all these other things.

01:40:37.720 | And so I can make an argument for any single macronutrient

01:40:41.560 | to be negative for longevity.

01:40:43.880 | I really want people,

01:40:47.020 | this is something that even scientists get wrong.

01:40:49.180 | They look at an acute response of something

01:40:51.480 | and assume that that is going to relate

01:40:53.460 | to long-term outcomes and signaling.

01:40:55.320 | So let's just take exercise, for example.

01:40:59.540 | If I, if you didn't know anything about exercise

01:41:02.640 | and I said to you,

01:41:04.000 | "Andrew, I'm gonna do something that's gonna make you,

01:41:06.180 | your heart rate go up, your blood pressure go up,

01:41:08.620 | your inflammatory markers go up,

01:41:10.420 | your reactive oxygen species increase."

01:41:13.140 | You're gonna say, "And it's gonna damage your muscles."

01:41:17.460 | You're gonna say, "I'm not doing that.

01:41:19.060 | That sounds horrible."

01:41:20.180 | You know, but it does all those things in the short term.

01:41:23.880 | But what is the long-term effect of exercise?

01:41:26.820 | You actually get healthier.

01:41:28.520 | All those things improve.

01:41:30.520 | Now, I'm not saying that, you know,

01:41:31.740 | protein is a longevity hack or anything like that,

01:41:34.180 | but what I'm saying is I think some of the arguments

01:41:37.220 | out there based on mechanistic, you know,

01:41:40.060 | this increases mTOR, therefore we don't wanna do it,

01:41:43.460 | I think it is a much more complicated argument

01:41:46.100 | than just that.

01:41:47.900 | So there's that.

01:41:48.940 | So protein is the biggest lever.

01:41:50.140 | I would shoot for 1.6, you know, grams per kilogram.

01:41:53.080 | If you can do more, great.

01:41:54.540 | There doesn't seem to be really downsides to it.

01:41:56.400 | Even like up to very high levels of protein.

01:41:58.620 | Jose Antonio did a study

01:42:00.660 | that was a year-long randomized control trial.

01:42:03.780 | And again, it's just one year,

01:42:04.920 | but they were looking at all sorts of different biomarkers.

01:42:08.300 | And basically even up to like four grams per kilogram

01:42:10.900 | of protein, they couldn't really find

01:42:12.580 | any negative health outcomes from it.

01:42:14.660 | Other than people were just so satiated,

01:42:16.700 | they ended up eating less calories.

01:42:18.580 | So protein is a big lever because one,

01:42:23.460 | it has a higher thermic effect of food.

01:42:25.300 | So you're getting a little bit more calorie burn per day,

01:42:27.060 | even though it's not a ton because TEF

01:42:29.860 | is a pretty small percentage

01:42:30.980 | of your overall energy expenditure, but still a benefit.

01:42:34.620 | You're getting the effects on lean body mass.

01:42:36.340 | It's gonna, if you're in a diet,

01:42:37.580 | it's gonna help preserve lean body mass.

01:42:38.980 | If you're at maintenance,

01:42:39.840 | it's gonna help build or preserve lean body mass.

01:42:41.940 | And if you're in a surplus,

01:42:42.780 | it's gonna help build or preserve lean body mass.

01:42:45.180 | Then you get the effects on appetite.

01:42:48.120 | So now I wanna be careful

01:42:50.100 | because appetite effects tend to be very specific

01:42:55.100 | to individual foods, right?

01:42:58.400 | So you can take a high protein food

01:43:00.980 | and make it not very, not very satiating.

01:43:07.040 | So take, for example, like a really tasty protein bar,

01:43:09.460 | which, you know, back when we were getting into this,

01:43:11.580 | there, no such thing existed.

01:43:13.620 | Now you have protein bars actually take pretty darn good.

01:43:16.060 | But if you eat one of them, I mean,

01:43:18.380 | are you really satiated?

01:43:19.420 | I don't really feel satiated for a protein bar.

01:43:21.780 | - That's my pre-meal snack.

01:43:23.180 | - Right, right.

01:43:24.680 | So why?

01:43:26.300 | Because, I mean, it's processed, refined,

01:43:29.100 | and made to be very palatable, okay?

01:43:32.400 | But take something like a 200 gram chicken breast.

01:43:34.940 | Very satiating, right?

01:43:37.340 | And that's why when people say,

01:43:38.180 | well, carbohydrates aren't very satiating.

01:43:40.660 | Depends on the carbohydrate.

01:43:41.900 | I mean, when you look at the like the satiety index,

01:43:45.420 | a plain baked potato is about as satiating as it gets.

01:43:49.140 | - If I eat a bowl of oatmeal,

01:43:50.620 | I feel pretty good afterward for a while, right?

01:43:54.300 | I mean, I usually I'll eat that along with some other things,

01:43:56.940 | but I completely agree.

01:43:59.280 | So you're saying that the form that it comes in,

01:44:03.260 | maybe even how much chewing is required,

01:44:05.500 | how good it smells, that your psychological associations,

01:44:08.780 | 'cause to me, a steak is an incredible meal.

01:44:13.080 | Like, I mean, if I had to pick one food that I could eat,

01:44:15.960 | even though I'm not pure carnivore,

01:44:17.580 | for the rest of my life, it would be that,

01:44:18.940 | because I think it would get me where I need to go,

01:44:20.660 | and then I'd probably have to sneak some fiber, you know?

01:44:23.700 | But it's an excellent point.

01:44:26.020 | I have a question that I don't want to take us off track,

01:44:28.780 | but I'm hoping it relates enough

01:44:30.220 | that you could answer it now in the context of this.

01:44:33.540 | If I'm going to eat, let's say two grams per kilogram

01:44:36.660 | of body weight protein, and I'm not eating multiple meals,

01:44:40.240 | maybe I'm eating two or three meals per day,

01:44:42.540 | I'm certainly going to be eating more

01:44:44.020 | than the 30 gram threshold that was thrown around

01:44:46.740 | for a long time, that we can only assimilate 30 grams

01:44:48.660 | of protein per meal.

01:44:49.980 | Should I just not worry about that?

01:44:51.160 | Some of it is going to go

01:44:52.000 | towards the thermic effect of food.

01:44:54.740 | Some of that might be converted into glucose of all things,

01:44:57.260 | through gluconeogenesis.

01:44:58.900 | So should I worry about this 30 gram cutoff?

01:45:01.260 | Because I think balancing the 1.6 gram per kilogram

01:45:04.540 | body weight threshold with number of meals,

01:45:06.600 | with the need to exercise and work

01:45:08.180 | and live my life and sleep, et cetera,

01:45:09.700 | pretty soon you run into bottlenecks

01:45:12.100 | where you just can't do it all,

01:45:13.500 | or you're spending so much time trying to focus on it all.

01:45:15.220 | - You can't optimize all the things at the same time.

01:45:17.460 | - You'd lose your mind and your body.

01:45:19.500 | So what is necessary in terms of frequency

01:45:24.500 | if one is getting enough protein?

01:45:28.220 | And then tied into that question,

01:45:30.640 | is there any reality to this idea

01:45:33.420 | that if you eat one meal per day or you're fasting

01:45:36.340 | and then you eat, let's say 200 grams of protein

01:45:40.380 | in a single feeding that you can assimilate more

01:45:44.200 | because you were sort of protein starved?

01:45:46.740 | Is that a real thing?

01:45:48.040 | - So most of the studies with protein are after a fast,

01:45:53.940 | like because to assess it with stable isotope,

01:45:56.600 | you have to be in a steady state.

01:45:57.800 | So we haven't observed that.

01:46:01.060 | It doesn't appear that fasting really kind of allows you

01:46:04.300 | to assimilate more protein after a fast.

01:46:07.420 | So this gets into a core of one of the things

01:46:09.420 | I looked at in my PhD,

01:46:10.780 | which is does protein distribution matter?

01:46:13.180 | Because most Americans get about 65 to 70%

01:46:16.780 | of their protein at dinner, right?

01:46:18.500 | Breakfast tends to be pretty minimal protein foods.

01:46:22.220 | - Do any cultures actually eat a big breakfast

01:46:24.560 | and not a big lunch and dinner?

01:46:26.940 | We all heard that that was ideal.

01:46:28.500 | We'll get into circadian timing in a little bit,

01:46:30.340 | but does anyone actually do that?

01:46:31.920 | Steak and eggs for breakfast

01:46:32.980 | and then taper off the rest of the day?

01:46:34.940 | - I know German culture tends to have a big breakfast,

01:46:37.140 | but it also tends to be like sugary foods and whatnot.

01:46:39.600 | As far as like teleologically,

01:46:41.620 | I'm actually not sure about that.

01:46:43.980 | So if you look at that and then you consider

01:46:46.940 | that protein doesn't really have a storage mechanism, right?

01:46:50.640 | Like people will say, well, lean tissue

01:46:53.140 | is a storage mechanism.

01:46:56.080 | That's like saying a house is a storage facility for wood.

01:46:59.980 | Yeah, if the house is made out of wood,

01:47:01.760 | you could get wood out of it,

01:47:02.960 | but that's not why you build the house, right?

01:47:04.720 | Like you're building the house out of a demand,

01:47:06.400 | same thing for muscle tissue.

01:47:07.840 | There is a free pool of amino acids,

01:47:10.980 | but it's very, very small.

01:47:12.580 | So when you consider things like fat,

01:47:13.900 | which basically has unlimited storage capacity,

01:47:16.880 | carbohydrate, a relatively large storage capacity.

01:47:19.660 | You can store four or 500 grams of carbohydrate

01:47:22.060 | between your liver and muscles.

01:47:24.380 | And then protein, which almost has no storage capacity.

01:47:28.320 | The idea that, okay, you could make up for a low protein

01:47:34.300 | at one meal by over-consuming another meal

01:47:36.740 | didn't make sense to me.

01:47:38.600 | So one of the studies we did, and again, in rats,

01:47:42.800 | we took, both groups were getting whey protein,

01:47:47.800 | so high quality protein.

01:47:50.580 | They were getting the exact same amount of calories,

01:47:52.580 | exact same amount of nitrogen, exact same macros.

01:47:56.580 | Everything was the same.

01:47:57.420 | The only difference was one group basically got

01:48:01.080 | kind of three meals of similar amounts of protein.

01:48:04.260 | Like dinner was a little bit bigger,

01:48:05.960 | because we wanted to keep it somewhat similar

01:48:07.620 | to how people eat, but each meal was gonna be

01:48:09.500 | over the threshold to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.

01:48:13.020 | Whereas the other group, I constructed it

01:48:15.860 | so the first two meals of the day

01:48:17.940 | should not stimulate muscle protein synthesis.

01:48:19.980 | It should be under that threshold.

01:48:21.460 | And then the last meal was about 70%

01:48:23.300 | of the total daily protein.

01:48:24.780 | And so we had them eat those for 11 weeks.

01:48:27.460 | And I'll never forget this.

01:48:28.620 | This is how obsessive I became about it is,

01:48:31.620 | there was 110 animals in this study,

01:48:33.660 | and I made all the diets, and I weighed out

01:48:37.740 | exactly every single meal for every single animal

01:48:40.460 | for 11 weeks.

01:48:41.740 | So I was in there at 6 a.m., I was in there at noon,

01:48:44.820 | and then I was in there at 6 p.m.

01:48:46.580 | - I love it, that's a kind of PhD student

01:48:49.380 | that professors dream of, you guys aren't a dream student.

01:48:53.100 | - So at the end of 11 weeks, we looked at lean body mass,

01:48:57.220 | we looked at body fat, we looked at hind limb weights.

01:49:02.220 | We didn't really see differences in lean body mass,

01:49:06.100 | but what we did see was a difference in hind limb weights.

01:49:08.540 | It wasn't massive, but there was a significant difference

01:49:11.020 | in the size of the muscles of the hind limbs

01:49:13.800 | of these animals.

01:49:15.380 | And so it was interesting that there wasn't a difference

01:49:17.460 | in lean body mass, and what we found,

01:49:19.420 | at least with the liver, the animals that were eating

01:49:23.340 | the one meal with really high protein

01:49:28.620 | actually had bigger livers, not a huge amount,

01:49:32.480 | and not something that I would consider unsafe,

01:49:34.080 | but it was a statistically significant difference.

01:49:37.180 | And so to me, at least, if I'm trying to explain

01:49:40.760 | no difference in lean body mass,

01:49:42.140 | but a difference in these hind limb weights,

01:49:44.380 | maybe there's some sequestering of,

01:49:48.160 | that's fueling a little bit more protein synthesis

01:49:52.660 | of the splanchnic tissues rather than,

01:49:55.200 | 'cause you're capping out skeletal muscle protein synthesis.

01:49:58.140 | And we do know that the splanchnic tissues

01:49:59.960 | are more sensitive or have a greater rate

01:50:02.660 | of protein synthesis per day.

01:50:04.060 | The rate of skeletal muscle protein synthesis in humans

01:50:06.600 | is about 1% per day.

01:50:09.200 | So it takes like 100 days to turn over skeletal muscle,

01:50:13.140 | whereas your entire gut, your entire GI

01:50:15.740 | will turn itself over in like two to three days, right?

01:50:18.180 | So really, and the liver also has a very high amount

01:50:21.640 | of protein synthesis, which is one of the reasons

01:50:23.900 | it's actually one of the most metabolically active organs.

01:50:26.740 | So all that to say, there's been one human study

01:50:31.380 | that showed something similar,

01:50:32.940 | and then there's been a couple others that didn't.

01:50:36.020 | And then in the intermittent fasting studies,

01:50:38.340 | which is maybe a good tool to look at

01:50:40.500 | compared to continuous feeding, one thing I will say

01:50:45.500 | is it looks like the 16-8 intermittent fasting style.

01:50:49.260 | There's been a couple studies with Grant Tinsley,

01:50:52.400 | and this is something I've changed my mind on as well.

01:50:54.820 | Grant Tinsley has done a couple studies

01:50:56.260 | where they used the 16-8 protocol.

01:50:58.460 | They had them train during their feeding window,

01:51:01.540 | and they had them eat, I think it was at least

01:51:03.500 | three protein-containing meals during that eight hours.

01:51:06.020 | - These are humans? - These are humans.

01:51:08.060 | And they saw no difference in lean body mass

01:51:10.080 | at the end of the study compared to people

01:51:11.420 | who were eating as many times as they wanted

01:51:14.780 | throughout the day.

01:51:16.460 | Now, if you look at some of the more extreme forms

01:51:21.320 | of fasting, like alternate day fasting,

01:51:23.700 | or like 22-2 or 24, there are some studies

01:51:28.700 | where you do start to see differences in lean body mass.

01:51:31.480 | So my suspicion is, and I'm just guessing,

01:51:35.740 | so this is tenuous, my suspicion is probably

01:51:38.980 | if you're getting two to three high-quality protein meals

01:51:43.460 | in a day, you're getting the vast majority

01:51:46.160 | of the benefits of protein.

01:51:47.560 | The most important thing is getting enough total.

01:51:50.660 | And then secondarily, trying to get at least two

01:51:53.360 | or three meals with high-quality protein in.

01:51:56.200 | But if you're going pretty extreme

01:51:59.680 | with alternate day fasting or maybe only one meal a day,

01:52:04.300 | then I think there may be some effects on lean body mass.

01:52:07.080 | But again, these can be mitigated as well

01:52:09.340 | if you're doing hard resistance training.

01:52:11.580 | Typically, that is the biggest lever

01:52:14.920 | in terms of lean body mass.

01:52:16.140 | Yes, protein distribution may make a difference,

01:52:18.540 | but I'm trying to put it in context

01:52:20.060 | so people don't feel like they need to go out

01:52:21.260 | and eat four meals a day.

01:52:22.640 | But again, so what I would say is,

01:52:25.980 | some of the more milder forms of time-restricted eating

01:52:28.880 | appear to be fine for lean body mass.

01:52:31.540 | Now, the caveat is the following.

01:52:35.580 | One of the nice things about animal studies

01:52:38.100 | is when you consider if you wanna have

01:52:40.740 | a high subject number, high level of control,

01:52:43.660 | and a long duration, it's pretty much your only option.

01:52:47.820 | In our research review reps, I created a Venn diagram,

01:52:53.780 | which basically is like three circles crossing over.

01:52:57.740 | One is study duration, one is level of control,

01:53:03.300 | and the other one is subject number.

01:53:05.980 | To get all three of those circles to cross over,

01:53:08.700 | it almost has to be in animals.

01:53:10.600 | - And reps, it's a newsletter or a book?

01:53:14.100 | - So it's our monthly research review.

01:53:16.760 | So every month we review five studies that come out

01:53:21.020 | in fitness and nutrition.

01:53:22.860 | We'll usually do at least one nutrition,

01:53:25.180 | one training, and one supplement per month.

01:53:27.980 | - We will put a link to where people can sign up.

01:53:30.240 | This is a sign-up format?

01:53:32.100 | - Great, yeah, so it's a subscription-based service.

01:53:35.180 | So basically, when people might look at my study,

01:53:40.180 | well, why did you see a difference in muscle weights,

01:53:43.380 | whereas some of these other studies don't see a difference?

01:53:46.860 | I wait out every single meal for 11 weeks,

01:53:50.500 | and keep in mind that 11 weeks in a rodent's lifespan

01:53:54.460 | is a really long time.

01:53:56.580 | That's about an eighth of their total lifespan.

01:53:59.220 | So is it that there's no effect,

01:54:03.040 | or is it that the effect is relatively small

01:54:06.540 | and would take a really long time

01:54:08.860 | and very high level of control to see in humans?

01:54:12.420 | I don't know, but I think what I would say,

01:54:15.860 | relatively confidently, is if you're gonna do

01:54:18.540 | like a 16/8 intermittent fasting, you're probably fine.

01:54:21.820 | Especially, and again, what is the goal, right?

01:54:25.220 | Like if you're a bodybuilder looking to be

01:54:27.220 | the most massive person you possibly can,

01:54:29.620 | or you're a football player, or you're in some field

01:54:33.480 | that having as much lean body mass as possible

01:54:36.340 | is really important for you, then I would say,

01:54:38.820 | well, you're not really gaining a whole lot

01:54:40.500 | by doing some form of time-restricted eating.

01:54:42.220 | - I think most of the people listening to this

01:54:43.820 | do not fall into that category.

01:54:45.740 | I think most people want to maintain or lose weight.

01:54:48.380 | They'd like to perhaps add a bit of, quote-unquote,

01:54:51.240 | shape or muscle to specific areas of their body

01:54:53.300 | and lose body fat.

01:54:54.860 | - Right, and I think your normal forms of time-restricted eating

01:54:57.540 | are probably perfectly fine for that, right?

01:54:59.180 | And again, I don't want somebody to think,

01:55:01.800 | well, I do alternate-day fasting.

01:55:05.380 | There's no point to be resistance training

01:55:06.780 | 'cause I'm gonna lose muscle mass.

01:55:08.380 | No, no, no, no, no, no.

01:55:09.900 | You can still build muscle doing that.

01:55:11.580 | You just might not build as much muscle as you would

01:55:13.580 | if you were eating in a more traditional format.

01:55:15.580 | But if that's something that works for you and your goals,

01:55:18.020 | and especially if it's fat loss

01:55:19.320 | or controlling your calories, then again,

01:55:21.680 | it's about the hierarchy of what's important, right?

01:55:24.540 | So to answer your question,

01:55:27.000 | I do think that timing and frequency matters.

01:55:29.740 | Not so much frequency, but distribution more so.

01:55:32.340 | So I think the distribution matters,

01:55:34.780 | but it's a much smaller lever

01:55:36.960 | than just getting enough total protein in.

01:55:39.140 | And then as far as like animal versus plant,

01:55:41.520 | I used to be in the camp of there's no way

01:55:45.660 | somebody can build as much muscle on a plant-based diet.

01:55:48.180 | And now I think I've come back to you can,

01:55:50.720 | it just requires a little bit more planning.

01:55:53.120 | And I don't wanna say always,

01:55:56.040 | but it's very difficult to do

01:55:59.500 | without an isolated source of protein.

01:56:01.300 | So unless you're gonna supplement

01:56:02.420 | with an isolated plant source of protein,

01:56:04.420 | it's very difficult to get enough

01:56:07.100 | without going over on total calories,

01:56:08.980 | because you can figure that,

01:56:10.380 | especially like take somebody

01:56:11.460 | who may be calorically restricted,

01:56:13.580 | trying to get enough protein

01:56:14.700 | from whole intact plant sources.

01:56:16.460 | So you've got a few different things working against you.

01:56:19.100 | One, the sources of protein you're consuming

01:56:21.340 | also have carbohydrate and or fat.

01:56:23.380 | Two, it's a less bioavailable form of protein.

01:56:27.180 | And three, it's a lower quality of protein

01:56:29.060 | in terms of it has typically less leucine,

01:56:31.360 | less branched amino acids and less essential amino acids.

01:56:34.200 | - You answered the question

01:56:36.020 | that I almost interrupted you to ask,

01:56:37.860 | which was, does it boil down to the leucine content?

01:56:40.340 | And it sounds like that is one of the components

01:56:43.340 | and that a lot of the vegan and vegetarian sources

01:56:46.440 | of excellent protein,

01:56:48.340 | that excellent protein, vegetarian or vegan source

01:56:51.460 | is co-packaged with calories from carbohydrates

01:56:54.860 | and or fat that make it hard to stay

01:56:57.580 | under the caloric threshold.

01:56:59.220 | Whereas a steak is, I'm not,

01:57:00.640 | and obviously people might want to avoid that

01:57:02.340 | for ethical reasons,

01:57:03.620 | but that's a different matter entirely,

01:57:05.000 | but a steak or a piece of chicken or an egg is,

01:57:07.620 | well, an egg has a yolk, which is there's fat there,

01:57:11.000 | but is almost a pure protein fat source.

01:57:14.180 | There's no carbohydrate alone for the ride.

01:57:16.240 | - Right.

01:57:17.080 | So I think what I would say is that you can do it,

01:57:19.740 | it takes a little more planning,

01:57:21.400 | and you're almost always, if you're a vegan especially,

01:57:25.260 | you're gonna be better off

01:57:26.100 | like supplementing with some isolated form of protein

01:57:29.420 | or vegan form of protein.

01:57:30.700 | Now, this is where it gets into people say,

01:57:32.580 | well, what about the limiting amino acids

01:57:34.380 | and those sorts of things?

01:57:36.320 | It's a consideration.

01:57:37.580 | Some of the better forms of vegan protein

01:57:41.740 | in terms of amino acid content are like soy.

01:57:45.120 | Now, I hear everybody's screaming online

01:57:47.700 | about their testosterone levels.

01:57:49.460 | In terms of actual outcomes and looking at testosterone,

01:57:52.780 | there was a recent meta-analysis looking at soy.

01:57:56.180 | And I think if it's your only source of protein,

01:58:00.220 | then maybe the dosage is high enough

01:58:01.700 | to cause some weird effects.

01:58:03.320 | But if you're just using it like once or twice a day,

01:58:06.340 | doesn't seem to have an effect on testosterone or estrogen.

01:58:09.060 | So that can be a decent source of protein

01:58:12.100 | because it is a complete protein source.

01:58:14.660 | It does have a PD-CAUSE of one,

01:58:16.080 | which PD-CAUSE is basically a measure of protein quality

01:58:21.080 | based on does it provide enough of all the amino acids

01:58:26.240 | so that none are limiting?

01:58:27.580 | And so soy is one of the only vegan sources that does that.

01:58:30.640 | Interestingly, potato protein isolate

01:58:33.060 | actually has a similar essential amino acid content to whey.

01:58:36.640 | So isolated potato protein, it's just really hard to find.

01:58:39.480 | I've been trying to source it.

01:58:40.320 | - But vegans take note, vegetarians take note because,

01:58:43.160 | or vegans rather, 'cause whey is vegetarian.

01:58:46.060 | And whey is a very high quality protein source.

01:58:49.240 | - Very high quality protein source.

01:58:50.440 | And actually, they're actually creating whey now out of,

01:58:53.800 | I think it's, I may mischaracterize this,

01:58:57.960 | but I believe they're able to produce it

01:58:59.080 | out of like yeast or something like that.

01:59:00.840 | - Amazing.

01:59:02.240 | - So for vegans, now this is a great option

01:59:04.820 | because you can have whey that's not animal-based

01:59:08.140 | that is gonna be every bit as good as an animal-based whey.

01:59:11.360 | So I think that's great.

01:59:13.560 | Getting to the leucine, let me go back, sorry.

01:59:17.320 | So another reason that using an isolated protein

01:59:20.640 | can be helpful is because it's more bioavailable as well,

01:59:25.060 | when it's been isolated out.

01:59:26.560 | When it's the protein bound up in the actual plant material,

01:59:30.140 | it tends to be less bioavailable.

01:59:31.560 | Now, cooking can help increase the bioavailability

01:59:35.020 | 'cause it breaks some of those bonds and whatnot,

01:59:37.280 | but it still seems to be lower.

01:59:39.820 | And you don't, it's really interesting,

01:59:42.580 | there was a recent study where they did a corn, wheat,

01:59:46.660 | and pea blend of protein versus whey.

01:59:50.180 | And basically the outcome was 30 grams of each,

01:59:55.180 | stimulated protein synthesis to a similar degree.

01:59:57.680 | But the plasma amino acids in the plant-based protein

02:00:04.120 | still did not get as high as with whey.

02:00:07.000 | Now, it may be that that's just, it doesn't matter

02:00:10.020 | because once you get to a certain level,

02:00:11.520 | you get all the benefits.

02:00:12.440 | So, but I still found it interesting nonetheless

02:00:15.640 | that they didn't quite get as high.

02:00:17.340 | The other thing to consider with the vegan sources

02:00:21.980 | of protein is the leucine content.

02:00:23.580 | So one of the studies we did was we looked at wheat,

02:00:27.300 | soy, egg, and whey, isonitrogenous,

02:00:31.200 | meaning we equated protein between the groups,

02:00:34.520 | isocaloric, we equated calories,

02:00:37.720 | and we looked at muscle protein synthesis.

02:00:40.600 | And I think this was, the meals were 15%

02:00:44.040 | of total energy from protein.

02:00:45.840 | So like your food guide pyramid level of protein.

02:00:50.040 | And we saw that in the wheat and soy group,

02:00:53.400 | they did not increase muscle protein synthesis,

02:00:55.480 | but the egg and whey group

02:00:57.180 | increased muscle protein synthesis.

02:00:59.020 | Now, what's really interesting is we went back

02:01:04.300 | and we took wheat and added free leucine to it

02:01:07.440 | to match the leucine content of whey,

02:01:09.760 | and the protein synthetic response was identical.

02:01:12.700 | So again, I don't like to simplify things too much,

02:01:16.540 | but leucine appears to really be driving this ship.

02:01:21.540 | And I'll never forget,

02:01:24.520 | layman called me into his office one day,

02:01:26.380 | and he would always do these like thought experiments of,

02:01:29.320 | he liked to think about why something occurs

02:01:32.520 | the way it does.

02:01:33.360 | - Dangerous, dangerous territory.

02:01:34.580 | - Yeah, so he would say, one day, I'll never forget,

02:01:37.500 | he said, "Lane, why do you think the body evolved

02:01:39.740 | "to just sense leucine for muscle protein synthesis?"

02:01:42.980 | And of course I'm like, "Uh, I don't know, man,

02:01:46.600 | "I just work here, like I'm just trying to get my PhD."

02:01:50.180 | And he said, "Well, think about it.

02:01:52.860 | "You would want something that really wasn't

02:01:54.540 | "extensively metabolized by the gut and liver

02:01:56.920 | "because you would want it to show up in the blood

02:01:58.700 | "in values that reflect what you just ate."

02:02:02.060 | Makes sense.

02:02:03.340 | And you would want it to have passive diffusion

02:02:05.900 | across the muscle cell

02:02:06.860 | because you'd want it to be concentration dependent,

02:02:08.940 | which it is.

02:02:09.820 | - Get into the tissues and cells that need it most.

02:02:13.640 | - Right, so not having active transport,

02:02:16.300 | but rather passive transport.

02:02:18.300 | So yeah, I thought that that was really interesting

02:02:19.860 | the way he broke that down.

02:02:20.860 | So few different options for the vegan folks out there.

02:02:25.260 | You can use an isolated source of protein.

02:02:27.940 | And again, there's gonna be good options coming

02:02:29.780 | because this plant-based whey is gonna be a great option

02:02:32.180 | for folks.

02:02:33.020 | You can add free leucine to it,

02:02:37.300 | to whatever your source of protein is.

02:02:39.140 | - Just buy supplemented leucine powder.

02:02:41.820 | - Now it tastes horrible.

02:02:44.540 | - Yeah, I think I've heard that.

02:02:45.540 | Maybe I've even tried it.

02:02:46.860 | - It's completely non-polar, does not dissolve in anything.

02:02:49.220 | - Can it be put into capsules?

02:02:50.940 | - It can be put into capsules, yeah.

02:02:52.100 | So you could take a capsule, like for example,

02:02:54.660 | if you're eating your normal meal,

02:02:56.520 | you could just take a capsule of like one gram of leucine,

02:02:58.820 | it's probably gonna bump you up enough

02:03:01.180 | that you're gonna be good to go.

02:03:02.780 | And then there's options like blends, especially with corn.

02:03:08.620 | Corn is actually very high in leucine

02:03:10.620 | as a percentage of its protein.

02:03:12.340 | Now you gotta remember like you go eat corn on a cob

02:03:15.220 | and you're getting like two grams of total protein,

02:03:17.060 | so it's not that much leucine.

02:03:18.460 | But if you isolate out the protein, put it into a powder,

02:03:21.880 | well now, when you're getting like 80, 90% of the weight

02:03:25.020 | is now protein, corn is actually about 12% leucine

02:03:28.500 | in terms of the protein.

02:03:30.000 | So a great source of leucine,

02:03:31.300 | it is like almost frank deficient in some other amino acids,

02:03:34.720 | but you can blend it with a few other sources of protein,

02:03:36.900 | like you could blend it with a soy, a pea,

02:03:40.120 | and you can create these complementary blends

02:03:42.780 | that would actually have quite a bit of leucine,

02:03:44.860 | but also some of the other essential amino acids.

02:03:46.560 | So there are options out there for plant-based folks.

02:03:49.200 | And I mean, we have seen people who are plant-based

02:03:52.500 | build impressive amounts of muscle.

02:03:55.260 | There's quite a few bodybuilders that are plant-based.

02:03:57.340 | - And a lot of the endurance athletes like it.

02:03:59.100 | And even though when we talk about muscle,

02:04:01.940 | we think about muscle building often,

02:04:04.620 | performance in endurance sports,

02:04:06.480 | and also just performance for the typical person

02:04:08.860 | who's doing some cardiovascular training,

02:04:10.620 | hopefully some resistance training also,

02:04:12.620 | and just living life.

02:04:13.900 | I mean, many more people now it seems are vegan

02:04:16.660 | or at least avoiding meat in particular, red meat.

02:04:19.940 | I'm not one of those people.

02:04:21.500 | I limit the amount and I certainly focus on the quality

02:04:24.700 | of what I eat, but I do eat red meat.

02:04:27.460 | Which brings me to a question about,

02:04:31.780 | just generally in terms of food choice,

02:04:35.140 | can we come up with a relatively short summary

02:04:39.300 | of the following?

02:04:40.160 | Tell me if this is correct or not.

02:04:42.500 | That most of us should be focused on,

02:04:45.860 | for sake of health, health span and lifespan,

02:04:48.580 | should be focused on ingesting minimally,

02:04:53.540 | non-processed and minimally processed foods,

02:04:56.180 | and maybe even cooking our own food.

02:04:58.060 | I realize that's heresy now,

02:04:59.280 | but ideally we would do some of that.

02:05:00.740 | And really trying to avoid foods that are highly processed

02:05:05.260 | and have lots of sugar.

02:05:06.620 | And I'm using this as a segue to get into a question

02:05:09.020 | that I really want your answer to.

02:05:11.140 | I've been dying to ask you this,

02:05:13.340 | which is if a sugar intake is not actually going up

02:05:18.340 | as much as people think it is,

02:05:20.540 | why are people getting so much fatter?

02:05:23.740 | So what do you think about just a general statement

02:05:27.580 | that we should try and eat foods that are low to no,

02:05:32.340 | minimally to not processed, for about 80% of our foods?

02:05:35.740 | Is that a reasonable number?

02:05:37.060 | - It's hard to actually get completely unprocessed food

02:05:39.860 | 'cause almost everything goes through

02:05:40.920 | some form of processing.

02:05:41.900 | - So I'm thinking like anything that wouldn't survive long

02:05:45.300 | on refrigerators, yeah, on a shelf,

02:05:47.420 | like an apple or a banana or something, oatmeal,

02:05:49.980 | like ground oats to me,

02:05:51.740 | as long as there isn't a bunch of other stuff

02:05:53.060 | and they would be minimally processed.

02:05:54.940 | A steak is not really processed,

02:05:56.580 | although it's cut off the animal, et cetera.

02:05:58.740 | So there's a few steps in there,

02:06:00.600 | but that's what I mean.

02:06:03.120 | - Yeah, and I think everybody kind of gets the gist.

02:06:06.140 | I'm probably a little bit pedantic

02:06:07.780 | when it comes to this stuff.

02:06:08.780 | - No, this is good.

02:06:09.620 | Actually, one of the things I appreciate about you

02:06:12.260 | is something that I get teased a lot by people close to me,

02:06:14.940 | which is the caveats and the insistence on precision

02:06:18.560 | is really important because,

02:06:20.220 | especially with online communications these days,

02:06:23.260 | it's like a runaway train.

02:06:24.700 | - It's too easy to misinterpret what you're saying.

02:06:29.660 | - Very easy to misinterpret.

02:06:30.900 | And the misinterpretations are often used

02:06:32.740 | to leverage whole new ideas about what is and isn't true,

02:06:35.580 | mostly about what is true.

02:06:37.760 | So I really appreciate the nuance.

02:06:39.660 | And this is what a long form podcast really allows us to do

02:06:41.980 | is catch every curve.

02:06:44.480 | - So I would 100% agree with what you said

02:06:47.980 | that if you were gonna make a broad stroke,

02:06:50.700 | that trying to focus on mentally processed foods

02:06:53.260 | is very important.

02:06:55.040 | The one caveat I would say is,

02:06:56.820 | I think it's important to understand why,

02:06:58.700 | because otherwise people can make this weird association

02:07:01.160 | that if I eat any processed food, it's gonna kill me,

02:07:05.900 | or every time I eat it, it's like I'm smoking a cigarette

02:07:08.780 | and my health, my longevity is declining.

02:07:11.480 | Based on the studies we have,

02:07:15.180 | it's mostly about the energy that processed food

02:07:20.180 | just gets people to spontaneously eat more.

02:07:23.180 | And Kevin Hull showed this in his study that was very,

02:07:27.980 | he designed some of the most elegant studies in nutrition.

02:07:30.460 | - He's great.

02:07:31.300 | - And they basically took people

02:07:33.700 | from a minimally processed food diet

02:07:36.620 | and then gave them access to ultra-processed foods,

02:07:39.580 | very few instructions, just eat till you feel satisfied,

02:07:42.440 | and they spontaneously increased their calorie intake

02:07:44.380 | by 500 calories a day.

02:07:46.260 | I mean, that's massive.

02:07:48.680 | So, and we haven't quite figured it out.

02:07:52.660 | People say, well, it's sugar.

02:07:55.180 | It doesn't appear to be sugar

02:07:57.080 | in terms of just an isolation.

02:07:59.060 | Well, it's fats.

02:08:00.140 | Doesn't appear to be fats in isolation.

02:08:01.460 | Well, it's the combination of sugar and fat.

02:08:04.100 | Partly, well, it's the combination of sugar, fat, and salt.

02:08:07.660 | Partly, but there's some kind of like overall magic

02:08:11.040 | to the texture and the mouth feel

02:08:13.180 | and just the overall palatability of stuff,

02:08:15.340 | which is always why I say there's like right and wrong ways

02:08:17.480 | to do these different diets.

02:08:18.320 | Like for example, there's a right way to do plant-based,

02:08:21.140 | and then there's like what's in some of these documentaries

02:08:24.260 | where they're eating like plant-based mac and cheese.

02:08:26.660 | And again, I love a good mac and cheese,

02:08:28.780 | but like that should not form,

02:08:30.820 | like that should not be pitched as a healthy diet

02:08:32.500 | just because it's plant-based, right?

02:08:34.820 | Because I mean, you're eating a highly processed food

02:08:37.500 | that's very palatable and easy to overeat.

02:08:39.980 | Same thing for keto.

02:08:40.840 | You've now got like keto ice creams

02:08:42.500 | and you've got keto cookies and all these sorts of things.

02:08:45.620 | And I'm like, yeah.

02:08:47.860 | And if you look at them,

02:08:48.700 | they actually have more calories than the normal stuff.

02:08:50.660 | And I'm like, yeah,

02:08:51.860 | this is completely missing the point here.

02:08:53.680 | Like you're actually just taking yourself,

02:08:55.740 | like the whole point of those diets is the reason

02:08:59.300 | you tend to lose weight is originally like good luck,

02:09:02.780 | you know, 10 years ago doing a keto diet

02:09:05.580 | eating processed food, right?

02:09:07.460 | Like you just couldn't do it really.

02:09:09.360 | Now you can.

02:09:12.220 | But the problem is it's not gonna work

02:09:13.780 | because you're gonna be still consuming too many calories

02:09:15.900 | because even though it's keto, what are they doing?

02:09:18.780 | Well, they're trying to make it more palatable.

02:09:20.260 | They're trying to make a better mouth feel,

02:09:22.100 | which I guess if you're being keto

02:09:24.200 | for the sake of being keto, great.

02:09:25.820 | But if you have hopes of body composition modification,

02:09:29.980 | it's gonna really negatively impact.

02:09:32.880 | So yes, I think minimizing the amount of processed food

02:09:36.100 | you consume can be important.

02:09:38.260 | Now that being said,

02:09:39.460 | it depends on the individual and their goals.

02:09:41.780 | If your goal is to, for example, build muscle

02:09:44.500 | or maintain a high body weight for a sport, for example,

02:09:47.420 | like an NFL offensive lineman or something of that nature,

02:09:50.980 | or if you're, you know, I worked with an NBA team

02:09:55.220 | and they were kind of, I can't disclose anything,

02:09:57.900 | but they were looking at drafting a certain player.

02:10:00.300 | And, you know, like for them,

02:10:05.360 | processed foods may actually be a tool.

02:10:07.260 | - Or teenagers.

02:10:08.480 | - Right.

02:10:09.320 | I think young people to eat more healthfully, I think,

02:10:12.240 | develop great habits,

02:10:13.280 | but some of them, their caloric needs are so high.

02:10:15.560 | - So high.

02:10:16.380 | - That if they were eating what I eat,

02:10:18.000 | they're going to dissolve into, you know,

02:10:20.800 | they're just waste away.

02:10:21.760 | - So I describe this again with a financial example,

02:10:24.600 | it's like a budget, right?

02:10:25.960 | So if I make a million dollars a year, for example,

02:10:30.180 | is it okay for me to buy like a $100,000 sports car?

02:10:34.480 | Let's assume that loans don't exist, right?

02:10:36.600 | Is it okay for me to buy a $100,000 sports car

02:10:39.760 | if I still am able to pay my mortgage and pay my utilities

02:10:43.920 | and like take care of my responsibilities,

02:10:45.880 | the things I should do?

02:10:47.720 | Is it okay if I do that?

02:10:49.120 | If it like makes me feel good and it's fun?

02:10:50.680 | - It's fine by me.

02:10:51.560 | - Yeah, it's fine, right?

02:10:52.380 | Like it fits in your budget.

02:10:54.480 | If I have, if I make, you know, 50 grand a year,

02:10:58.100 | should I be going out and, you know, buying a sports car?

02:11:00.760 | Probably not, because I'm not going to be able

02:11:02.360 | to pay my mortgage and all these other responsibilities.

02:11:04.320 | So your protein, your fiber, your micronutrients,

02:11:08.040 | these are your responsibilities.

02:11:09.880 | But those become much easier to hit

02:11:11.480 | when you have higher calories, right?

02:11:13.100 | So if you're, you know, eating 4,000 calories a day

02:11:16.100 | for whatever goal you have,

02:11:17.700 | you're probably gonna have some left over

02:11:20.640 | and like good luck eating 4,000 calories

02:11:24.540 | from mentally processed foods.

02:11:26.720 | Quite frankly, you'll be miserable

02:11:28.200 | because you're gonna have such gut fill

02:11:30.840 | that you're gonna feel like you can't even move.

02:11:32.880 | And so again, now it becomes, okay, well,

02:11:37.320 | is there something inherent to that food processing?

02:11:39.840 | Is there something, you know, that we can pick out

02:11:42.560 | that we know, okay, well, this is gonna be

02:11:44.160 | a negative effect on health,

02:11:45.620 | even like body composition stuff aside.

02:11:47.960 | And I would say there's not really great evidence

02:11:51.020 | of that so far.

02:11:52.200 | And a great example of that is sugar.

02:11:54.880 | I mean, I actually just wrote a really long article

02:11:58.300 | on my website about why I think sugar

02:12:00.720 | was not the root cause of the obesity epidemic.

02:12:03.080 | And you kind of mentioned like sugar intake

02:12:04.800 | in the last 20 years has actually gone down a little bit.

02:12:07.160 | - Alcohol intake.

02:12:09.080 | Well, if you look on the whole,

02:12:10.960 | it might've gone up a little bit,

02:12:12.060 | but you know, certainly in the male sector,

02:12:14.980 | it's gone way down.

02:12:16.040 | Drinking used to be, there was a five o'clock,

02:12:18.280 | people were drinking all day.

02:12:20.040 | People were smoking a lot less.

02:12:21.600 | I think it's a real puzzle.

02:12:24.560 | I'd love to know what your hypotheses are.

02:12:27.320 | - Well, smoking could actually be in opposition

02:12:28.960 | because nicotine's actually an appetite suppressant.

02:12:30.840 | - Appetite suppressant also increases focus.

02:12:32.400 | The problem is it often arrives in a delivery device

02:12:34.840 | that can kill you.

02:12:35.800 | But nicotine itself is a powerful agent.

02:12:38.920 | It also can offset age-related cognitive decline,

02:12:42.080 | not entirely, but it makes the brain work better.

02:12:45.780 | - I've got a buddy who doesn't like caffeine

02:12:49.200 | and he just takes those nicotine pouches

02:12:51.160 | and like basically has one in almost all day

02:12:53.380 | because he has a very stressful job

02:12:55.600 | and is a high performer, you know.

02:12:57.160 | - Yeah, you have to be careful how you deliver it.

02:12:58.820 | But there's a Nobel prize winning neuroscientist

02:13:01.860 | that will chew five or six pieces of Nicorette an hour,

02:13:05.420 | which I do not recommend.

02:13:07.280 | But when he quit smoking,

02:13:08.300 | he just simply couldn't function as well.

02:13:10.280 | And he was the one who pointed me to the literature

02:13:12.060 | on offsetting age-related cognitive decline,

02:13:15.120 | even neuron maintenance.

02:13:16.300 | And it's pretty interesting.

02:13:18.120 | - Well, it's a pretty impressive nootropic, to be honest.

02:13:21.080 | So now the first thing to realize

02:13:24.480 | is when we're talking about consumption data,

02:13:27.440 | this is based on actual production, basically.

02:13:31.120 | They're assuming that, okay,

02:13:32.320 | we're producing this amount of these foods

02:13:34.280 | so we can assume the consumption is gonna follow that.

02:13:36.440 | So it's not a direct measurement,

02:13:38.400 | but it has been validated in a few different studies.

02:13:42.400 | We know that oil consumption has gone up.

02:13:44.200 | Like that's, yeah, that's one of the big ones

02:13:47.260 | is, and this kind of forms the crux of like the seed oils

02:13:50.080 | or like the root of, you know.

02:13:51.280 | - It's definitely a question that I'm gonna ping you on.

02:13:53.340 | - They're gonna, you know, come into your house

02:13:55.460 | and kick your dog and, you know, punch your mom

02:13:57.840 | and all kinds of stuff, and I'm happy to address those.

02:14:01.860 | But so calories have still gone up.

02:14:06.180 | There's some people who claim that they've gone,

02:14:08.260 | they've kind of plateaued.

02:14:10.620 | I think the data seems to suggest

02:14:12.980 | that calorie intake is still increasing.

02:14:15.500 | And the other thing to keep in mind is

02:14:18.460 | even if it's plateaued, it's still at a high enough level

02:14:21.900 | that obesity is probably gonna continue to increase

02:14:23.900 | up to a point where it'll probably plateau

02:14:25.740 | if calories are plateaued.

02:14:26.820 | - What about energy output?

02:14:28.700 | Leaving aside meat, because that sounds highly individual.

02:14:31.380 | I mean, people are, the people we know

02:14:33.780 | are focusing on exercise, but there are a lot of folks

02:14:36.140 | out there that don't exercise.

02:14:37.500 | - And energy output has gone down over the years.

02:14:40.820 | I mean, it's very obvious when you look at

02:14:42.880 | how people work now compared to even, you know,

02:14:45.220 | 30, 40 years ago, it's much different.

02:14:47.540 | - Less walking.

02:14:48.380 | Also, I learned recently that kids in high school

02:14:52.200 | don't take PE class in many schools.

02:14:55.160 | We had to suit up and run and suit up.

02:14:57.300 | And if you didn't bring your change of clothes

02:14:59.620 | or you didn't wash them, in which case

02:15:00.960 | you'd be better off just not wearing them.

02:15:03.000 | Nothing like the smell of a boy's locker room

02:15:04.760 | after a weekend, you know, you can still remember it.

02:15:07.340 | And it's not pleasant, but you had to run

02:15:10.320 | and do your pushups with everybody else

02:15:12.280 | or play volleyball in your regular school day clothes.

02:15:15.880 | So that, my understanding is that physical education

02:15:19.640 | is not part of the basic education any longer.

02:15:23.200 | - Probably depends on the state,

02:15:24.280 | but I know many states have done away with it

02:15:26.160 | just because of budget cuts.

02:15:27.400 | - So activity's going down, caloric intake is going up,

02:15:29.800 | maybe plateauing a little bit.

02:15:32.480 | Is that sufficient to explain the obesity epidemic?

02:15:35.760 | - Based on what I've seen, I think it's pretty sufficient.

02:15:38.360 | - So it might not be that big of a mystery after all.

02:15:40.440 | - No, I don't think it's a big mystery.

02:15:41.720 | I think that people don't like the concept

02:15:47.840 | of energy balance and I think because they insert judgment

02:15:51.480 | into it, which is, okay, if you're gaining weight over time

02:15:56.480 | at a fundamental level, it means you are eating,

02:15:59.400 | you're consuming more energy than you're expending.

02:16:02.000 | People insert the judgment, which is you're lazy,

02:16:07.060 | you're a sloth, you're whatever it is.

02:16:10.120 | And I think there's a lot of people out there

02:16:12.160 | who actually think that.

02:16:13.000 | I actually remember talking to somebody who was like,

02:16:14.440 | well, I would never hire an obese person for a job

02:16:16.480 | because it's just obvious that they're lazy.

02:16:18.600 | And I just remember going, are you serious?

02:16:22.560 | Like, there are plenty of very, very smart,

02:16:24.960 | high-achieving people who are obese.

02:16:27.320 | Like, it's not, this is what happens

02:16:29.200 | when you just put people in buckets.

02:16:31.240 | People are much more complicated than this.

02:16:33.440 | Yes, there is some personal responsibility,

02:16:38.200 | but then when you look through the data

02:16:39.360 | and you take, there was a study done in obese women

02:16:43.180 | where they found that women who were obese

02:16:44.720 | were 50% more likely to have had some form

02:16:47.760 | of sexual assault trauma in their past, right?

02:16:50.280 | We know that people from lower income areas

02:16:54.240 | are more prone to be obese.

02:16:56.640 | There's several, like people who have a higher ACE score,

02:16:59.880 | I believe, which is kind of measures

02:17:01.860 | like traumatic childhood events.

02:17:03.600 | I believe there was a study showing

02:17:05.480 | they're more likely to be obese.

02:17:06.800 | So there's, yes, it is an energy imbalance problem,

02:17:13.240 | but just saying eat less, move more,

02:17:16.280 | that's like telling broke people,

02:17:17.880 | well, just earn more money than you spend.

02:17:20.400 | It's technically right, but it's very unhelpful, right?

02:17:25.280 | What is more helpful is to describe

02:17:28.200 | and implement the habits and behaviors

02:17:30.160 | that will allow them to achieve that, right?

02:17:33.360 | So I realize we kind of got off track a little bit,

02:17:35.840 | but circling back to sugar,

02:17:40.520 | circa 2005, I believe that sugar was fattening

02:17:45.160 | and bad for your health independent of any other variable.

02:17:47.920 | So independent risk factor.

02:17:49.880 | And again, I want to be very clear

02:17:51.880 | about what independent means.

02:17:53.800 | Independent means independent of all of the variables,

02:17:57.280 | this thing is bad for your health and body composition.

02:18:01.560 | - So on its own, independent of whether or not,

02:18:03.980 | for instance, it increases hunger and appetite.

02:18:06.960 | - Right, or caloric intake, right?

02:18:10.360 | I was at a graduate school mixer

02:18:12.520 | and one of the professors there was somebody

02:18:14.440 | who had done research on high fructose corn syrup

02:18:17.480 | and fructose specifically as well.

02:18:19.840 | And he was talking to another professor

02:18:22.240 | and he had done this study in rodents

02:18:26.520 | where he'd fed like, I think it was like 60 or 70%

02:18:28.840 | of their calories from fructose.

02:18:30.280 | And they saw some really weird things happen in the liver

02:18:33.140 | with the NOVA lipogenesis and all this kind of stuff.

02:18:35.240 | And the other professor is saying to him,

02:18:37.940 | yeah, it's pretty obvious that high fructose corn syrup

02:18:39.940 | is fattening.

02:18:41.380 | And this professor who had done this research said,

02:18:44.280 | yeah, because people overeat.

02:18:46.860 | And he's like, don't you think there's something

02:18:48.640 | inherent to it?

02:18:49.480 | And he said, no, I think it's just calories.

02:18:51.740 | People are eating too many calories.

02:18:53.220 | He's like, we did a proof of concept looking at,

02:18:56.060 | could we try eating 70% of your daily calories

02:18:59.220 | from fructose, you actually can't do it.

02:19:01.240 | High fructose corn syrup is only 55% fructose.

02:19:04.600 | So if you ate nothing but high fructose corn syrup,

02:19:06.800 | you would still not get to this level

02:19:08.360 | that they fed in this study.

02:19:11.600 | So that got me kind of questioning my beliefs about it.

02:19:14.480 | So then I went through and I said, OK,

02:19:16.640 | let's take out the epidemiology.

02:19:18.640 | Not that epidemiology is useless, but people who eat more sugar

02:19:22.420 | are also likely to eat more calories.

02:19:24.480 | So then I looked for the randomized control trials

02:19:26.960 | where they match calories and vary the amount of sugar.

02:19:31.640 | And it doesn't seem to make a difference, at least

02:19:34.320 | from fat loss or fat gain.

02:19:36.000 | But what about health?

02:19:37.120 | So for instance, if somebody, and I know somebody like this

02:19:40.400 | who loves sweets, is thin, get some exercise, not a ton,

02:19:45.400 | but my concern is that a significant fraction

02:19:50.360 | of their calories are coming from these sugary foods

02:19:53.200 | and therefore they're not getting enough fiber,

02:19:55.920 | maybe protein, et cetera.

02:19:57.720 | - So let's look at epidemiology for a second

02:20:01.160 | then I'll address this more directly.

02:20:03.500 | When we look at epidemiology,

02:20:04.880 | people who eat higher amounts of sugar

02:20:07.020 | tend to be more obese.

02:20:09.240 | They tend to have worse biomarkers of health.

02:20:11.720 | But people who eat fruit, a lot of fruit sugar,

02:20:16.560 | don't have those same associations.

02:20:18.660 | So why is that?

02:20:19.580 | Well, because fruit has fiber with it, right?

02:20:22.140 | So I started to kind of believe,

02:20:26.440 | based on the data I was looking at,

02:20:28.580 | that high sugar intake was not the problem per se.

02:20:32.500 | The problem was that high sugary foods

02:20:34.680 | typically are very low in fiber.

02:20:37.180 | But if you're getting enough fiber, is sugar a problem?

02:20:41.920 | So there was a classic study by Serwitt in 1997,

02:20:45.420 | I think it's still the best study to this day,

02:20:47.220 | looking at this, and I know those people say,

02:20:48.560 | well, it was done in 1997, it has no relevance.

02:20:50.480 | You know, I know, if it's a good study, it's a good study.

02:20:53.000 | - No, some studies are timeless.

02:20:54.620 | In fact, they have greater relevance.

02:20:56.120 | - We're not gonna go back and undo the discovery of DNA

02:20:58.240 | 'cause it was 60 years ago or whatever it is.

02:21:00.880 | So they looked at an 1100 calorie diet, so low calorie diet.

02:21:05.880 | One group was eating over 110 grams of sugar a day,

02:21:10.940 | like sucrose.

02:21:12.460 | The other group was eating about 10 grams of sugar per day.

02:21:15.080 | Calories, protein, carbs, fats, all matched, right?

02:21:19.460 | And they provided all the meals to these participants.

02:21:21.900 | So very tightly controlled, and it was over six weeks.

02:21:24.940 | Both groups lost the exact same amount of body fat.

02:21:27.400 | So it doesn't seem to matter for body composition

02:21:29.400 | in terms of like sugar per se.

02:21:31.400 | Then they also looked at some biomarkers of health,

02:21:33.620 | like blood lipids and blood sugar and some other things.

02:21:37.160 | Again, there was no real differences.

02:21:39.920 | The only difference was,

02:21:41.840 | so all their biomarkers improved in both groups.

02:21:44.680 | The only real difference was a small difference in LDL.

02:21:48.040 | So the group eating low sugar

02:21:49.920 | had a better improvement slightly in LDL,

02:21:53.280 | but that's probably because they were eating more fiber.

02:21:55.640 | And we know fiber can bind to cholesterol

02:21:58.600 | and lower LDL cholesterol.

02:22:00.440 | So is, now I wanna caveat this.

02:22:05.440 | Sugar probably doesn't have any like

02:22:07.080 | positive health effects.

02:22:08.600 | So there's that, right?

02:22:09.700 | And nutrition is an exchange.

02:22:12.280 | If you're eating one thing,

02:22:13.200 | you're not eating another thing, right?

02:22:15.520 | So I, but what I would tell people is,

02:22:18.640 | focus probably less on sugar, focus more on fiber.

02:22:23.140 | So if you're eating 30, 40, 50, 60 grams of fiber a day,

02:22:28.920 | but your sugar is, you know, 80, 90 grams,

02:22:32.260 | I would not be that worried about it,

02:22:34.140 | especially if you're controlling calories as well.

02:22:37.340 | You know, what I would be worried about

02:22:38.700 | is if you're eating, you know,

02:22:40.780 | just a decent amount of calories

02:22:42.480 | and not getting enough fiber in general, right?

02:22:46.020 | And even in studies, there's a few meta-analyses out now

02:22:49.380 | looking at isoenergetic exchange of different carbohydrates

02:22:53.300 | with sugar carbohydrates.

02:22:54.780 | So fructose and glucose and sucrose.

02:22:57.420 | Now, why is this important?

02:22:58.460 | Well, again, you know, if you're not equate,

02:23:00.640 | when I say isoenergetic,

02:23:01.860 | that means equal in energy, equal in calories.

02:23:04.580 | So basically when they exchange either sucrose

02:23:08.140 | or glucose or fructose for other forms of carbohydrate,

02:23:12.540 | do they see differences in these markers of health,

02:23:16.020 | like HbA1c, fasting blood glucose, you know, blood lipids,

02:23:21.020 | and with rare exceptions,

02:23:24.240 | and I can't remember all the data points exactly,

02:23:27.220 | but the take home is,

02:23:29.580 | doesn't really seem to make a difference.

02:23:31.780 | Now, before anybody out there straw mans my argument,

02:23:34.820 | I am not advocating for sugar consumption,

02:23:37.540 | but I think it's important for people

02:23:39.340 | to not create weird associations in their minds

02:23:41.620 | because one of the things I've observed,

02:23:43.060 | especially in the fitness industry,

02:23:45.400 | is when people feel like they can't eat something,

02:23:48.020 | like it's one thing if you say,

02:23:49.920 | I am choosing not to eat this just because I'm choosing to,

02:23:54.300 | but it's a very different thing

02:23:55.500 | when you're purposely restricting

02:23:56.660 | because you feel like something is bad.

02:23:59.260 | And this, I mean, you know the human brain

02:24:02.300 | is in many ways amazing, in many ways really dumb.

02:24:05.540 | So when you purposely try to restrict something,

02:24:09.780 | what tends to happen is you're more prone to binge on it.

02:24:12.740 | So people who will try to,

02:24:14.980 | well, I'm never gonna eat, you know, sugar again,

02:24:17.600 | or I'm gonna try and limit sugar,

02:24:19.860 | and this isn't the case for everybody,

02:24:22.100 | but they have actually shown now in studies,

02:24:26.340 | people who are purposely restricting a specific nutrient,

02:24:29.760 | they tend to crave more of that nutrient.

02:24:32.860 | And if they do get exposed to it,

02:24:35.140 | they're more likely to have

02:24:36.100 | what's called a disinhibition reflex,

02:24:37.900 | which is basically a binge response.

02:24:40.300 | Because the thinking goes, well, this is bad.

02:24:43.420 | And there's no context on dosage making the poison.

02:24:47.560 | This is just bad in general.

02:24:48.880 | So if I have it, I've already screwed up.

02:24:51.460 | I might as well just have as much as I want.

02:24:54.060 | And I like Spencer Nadolski's comparison to this.

02:24:57.260 | That's like getting a flat

02:24:58.940 | and then going out and slashing your other three tires

02:25:00.820 | because you might as well.

02:25:02.740 | So I really, I try to come from that perspective

02:25:05.740 | of I've seen so many people struggle with,

02:25:09.020 | maybe not an eating disorder, but disordered eating patterns

02:25:12.580 | because of these kind of associations

02:25:14.720 | they've made in their mind.

02:25:16.100 | And so that's why I'm so pedantic and a stickler

02:25:19.100 | about saying, okay, yes, it's a good idea

02:25:21.060 | to eat a mentally processed food

02:25:23.780 | and try to avoid processed foods.

02:25:26.200 | But not because processed foods are bad per se,

02:25:30.100 | but what the outcome tends to be

02:25:32.860 | from a lot of processed food consumption,

02:25:34.540 | which is over consuming calories,

02:25:35.860 | and then therefore energy toxicity

02:25:38.560 | negatively contributing to your health.

02:25:40.440 | - Yeah, it seems like it, again, returns to this,

02:25:42.940 | the potential for a positive, negative,

02:25:46.520 | or neutral behavioral change and perceptual change

02:25:49.500 | of like craving a food all the time that you can't have

02:25:53.020 | is terrible, it's a terrible state to be in.

02:25:56.260 | And this, I think, is a perfect segue

02:25:58.780 | for something that first brought us together,

02:26:01.880 | which was this thing about artificial sweeteners.

02:26:06.820 | And let me just, for the record, be very clear,

02:26:11.240 | I have long ingested foods with artificial sweeteners.

02:26:14.880 | So I, throughout graduate school,

02:26:17.660 | I didn't have the best habits,

02:26:19.100 | they're healthier now than they were back then,

02:26:21.220 | but I would drink a Diet Coke or two per day.

02:26:23.820 | I still have the occasional Diet Coke.

02:26:25.940 | I'm not completely averse to drink something

02:26:30.780 | that has artificial sweetener.

02:26:32.340 | Although I do avoid sucralose for reasons

02:26:35.500 | that maybe I can get into a little bit later.

02:26:38.740 | But a lot of the things I consume contain stevia,

02:26:41.840 | which is not artificial plant,

02:26:43.840 | but it is a plant-based non-caloric sweetener,

02:26:45.980 | low-caloric sweetener.

02:26:47.780 | And I don't have a problem with that.

02:26:50.340 | I became very interested in artificial sweeteners

02:26:52.660 | because of the animal data,

02:26:55.100 | I'm pointing to the idea

02:26:56.940 | that they may disrupt the gut microbiome.

02:26:59.540 | And then disrupt the gut microbiome,

02:27:01.340 | as you pointed out, is a very broad statement.

02:27:03.260 | We don't really know the percentage of lactobacillus,

02:27:05.980 | exobacillus, or whatever bacillus,

02:27:07.900 | whatever silice, illus in there,

02:27:10.540 | they all seem to end in illus, is ideal.

02:27:13.820 | And in fact, a lot of these companies

02:27:15.340 | that are having people send in their stool samples

02:27:17.860 | for analysis of the microbiome,

02:27:19.300 | I mean, take note,

02:27:20.940 | we don't really know what a healthy microbiome looks like,

02:27:23.700 | but we know what an unhealthy microbiome might look like.

02:27:26.140 | And it's one that doesn't have a lot of diversity in there.

02:27:29.020 | So I was interested in that.

02:27:30.340 | Then there's the recent human study,

02:27:32.020 | which we should definitely get into.

02:27:33.980 | But I was mostly interested in artificial sweeteners

02:27:36.820 | for the reason that there is this food conditioning effect.

02:27:41.820 | And you see it in animals and you see it in humans

02:27:43.840 | that if you ingest, well, coffee's a really good example.

02:27:47.820 | Coffee doesn't actually taste good, folks,

02:27:49.580 | even though I like it.

02:27:50.420 | But when you taste coffee for the first time,

02:27:52.300 | most people think it's bitter and disgusting.

02:27:54.620 | Most everybody, like 95% of people will say,

02:27:57.020 | this doesn't taste good.

02:27:57.860 | - Wine, beer, same thing.

02:27:59.020 | - Yep, but people learn to associate the state

02:28:01.140 | of being caffeinated, which most people like,

02:28:03.400 | in order to just feel normal, right?

02:28:05.640 | Caffeine's one of the few drugs we ingest

02:28:07.020 | just to feel ourselves enough that soon,

02:28:12.020 | myself included, really look forward to

02:28:14.520 | and enjoy a cup of coffee.

02:28:16.340 | So it's a powerful example, in my opinion,

02:28:18.980 | of the food conditioning effect.

02:28:20.540 | So it's like a Pavlovian thing,

02:28:21.740 | instead of salivating, you crave, right?

02:28:23.740 | And it did seem that this study from Dana Small's lab,

02:28:28.440 | which admittedly was a small, no pun intended, study itself,

02:28:31.340 | not very many subjects,

02:28:32.600 | showed that if you ingested artificial sweeteners

02:28:34.440 | along with food that contained glucose,

02:28:36.820 | that you could sort of maybe even get

02:28:38.520 | a heightened glucose response

02:28:40.180 | just from the artificial sweeteners after a while.

02:28:43.280 | You and I connected over this study on social media.

02:28:46.180 | You pointed out that the design of the study wasn't superb.

02:28:49.760 | There was co-consumption of glucose,

02:28:52.560 | which made it complicated.

02:28:53.580 | We can go into that.

02:28:54.740 | But the reason I'm spouting off all this context

02:28:56.980 | is artificial sweeteners are many things.

02:28:59.160 | So I'd like to talk about their effects on blood sugar

02:29:02.380 | in the acute sense,

02:29:03.780 | and according to what we might ingest them with,

02:29:06.660 | and how they might be changing blood sugar regulation

02:29:09.880 | at the level of brain and/or body.

02:29:11.460 | And then the gut microbiome data, I think,

02:29:13.700 | are interesting enough to discuss.

02:29:16.260 | And I have changed my view on artificial sweeteners

02:29:19.460 | based on what you've taught me.

02:29:21.000 | So this is a case where I've completely changed my view,

02:29:23.780 | which is that now I don't have any problem with them

02:29:28.300 | whatsoever based on the current data,

02:29:30.140 | which is not to say that I'm gulping down

02:29:33.320 | a cup fulls of sucralose,

02:29:34.960 | but I feel okay ingesting some stevia and some aspartame,

02:29:40.740 | and I'm not too worried about it.

02:29:42.180 | Yeah, so I think, kind of stepping back from a broad view,

02:29:46.700 | we have to think about, again,

02:29:51.860 | the hierarchy of importance, right?

02:29:53.260 | And what are you replacing with, right?

02:29:55.900 | So there is no situation where it is not a net positive

02:30:00.680 | to take somebody who drinks sugar-sweetened beverages

02:30:03.060 | and have them drink an artificially sweetened beverage.

02:30:05.340 | Like in the meta-analysis,

02:30:07.460 | there was actually a recent network meta-analysis

02:30:09.860 | looking at markers of adiposity,

02:30:12.660 | HbA1c, a bunch of different health markers,

02:30:16.660 | and when you substitute,

02:30:18.460 | we'll call it non-nutritive sweeteners,

02:30:21.700 | since stevia is not artificial,

02:30:24.260 | so when you substitute NNS

02:30:26.620 | for the sugar-sweetened beverages,

02:30:29.200 | you see improvements in a lot of different things, okay?

02:30:32.860 | What was really interesting about this network meta-analysis

02:30:35.460 | was they also looked at water substitution

02:30:38.220 | in place of sugar-sweetened beverages,

02:30:40.380 | and the effect wasn't as powerful as,

02:30:42.820 | and these are randomized control trials.

02:30:44.340 | - So artificial sweetener-containing beverages

02:30:47.060 | are more beneficial?

02:30:48.300 | - Were better for adiposity, for improving adiposity,

02:30:52.980 | and then in the health markers, it was kind of a wash.

02:30:55.660 | Water and non-nutritive sweetener beverages

02:31:00.660 | performed similar,

02:31:03.580 | but they were better than

02:31:04.420 | sugar-sweetened beverages, obviously.

02:31:06.980 | So they then, based on a network meta-analysis,

02:31:11.980 | is kind of where you can compare two things

02:31:16.060 | that didn't get compared directly.

02:31:17.500 | So there's not many studies

02:31:18.700 | comparing NNS versus water directly,

02:31:21.480 | but if you have a common comparator,

02:31:23.380 | so if you compare A to B, and B gets compared to C,

02:31:26.260 | you compare A to C, based on how they interacted with B.

02:31:29.180 | I'm butchering it a little bit,

02:31:30.900 | but that's kind of the crux of a network meta-analysis.

02:31:33.940 | So they looked at NNS versus water,

02:31:38.440 | and found that actually NNS was slightly better

02:31:42.180 | for improving adiposity.

02:31:43.860 | - NNS, of course, being non-nutritive sweeteners.

02:31:46.140 | - Right. - Yeah.

02:31:47.220 | - So, now again, if you like drinking water,

02:31:51.060 | and I'm not trying to convince anybody to do that,

02:31:54.900 | what that seems to suggest

02:31:56.540 | is there is a little bit of an appetite suppressant effect

02:31:59.740 | from these artificial sweeteners,

02:32:01.260 | or non-nutritive sweeteners.

02:32:03.180 | Now, this gets a little bit more complicated,

02:32:05.200 | because if these were people

02:32:06.620 | drinking sugar-sweetened beverages,

02:32:08.100 | maybe they've already developed a sweet taste,

02:32:09.620 | and trying to go to water is too much of a jump for them,

02:32:11.980 | and so going to having something like intermediate

02:32:14.100 | is a little bit better.

02:32:15.320 | There's a lot wrapped up in this,

02:32:16.340 | but these are the randomized control trials,

02:32:18.140 | which are a little bit more tightly controlled,

02:32:19.540 | which I tend to default to a little bit more

02:32:22.260 | than I do the epidemiology,

02:32:24.140 | which epidemiology is just so messy,

02:32:26.020 | because sure, non-nutritive sweetener consumption

02:32:29.140 | may be associated with different things,

02:32:31.260 | but there's also a whole 'nother set of lifestyle

02:32:33.980 | and habits that are tied up in that.

02:32:36.180 | So I tend to hang my head a little bit more

02:32:38.180 | on the randomized control trials.

02:32:39.740 | So understanding that, okay,

02:32:42.580 | now, all things being equal,

02:32:45.260 | understanding that this is a tool

02:32:48.540 | that may help some people,

02:32:49.580 | and whenever I post about non-nutritive sweeteners

02:32:51.820 | in the comments, there's always one or two or three people

02:32:55.500 | who say, "All I did was cut out soda,

02:32:58.400 | "and I drank diet soda instead, and I lost 50 pounds,"

02:33:00.980 | or, "I lost 75 pounds.

02:33:02.000 | "I even had one per se.

02:33:02.840 | "I lost 100 pounds.

02:33:03.680 | "That's the only thing I did."

02:33:04.500 | - Wow.

02:33:05.340 | - I mean, that's a pretty massive lever to pull.

02:33:06.780 | If you consider somebody who might be having like,

02:33:08.400 | I mean, five or six cokes a day,

02:33:10.940 | I mean, that's, you know,

02:33:13.080 | we're talking a serious amount of calories.

02:33:15.180 | - And that also means that by replacing

02:33:16.940 | with artificial sweetener-containing beverages,

02:33:19.960 | they did not replace the soda with food.

02:33:23.620 | - Correct.

02:33:24.460 | So like, now let's talk about, right,

02:33:27.700 | this is where we can get into the microanalysis,

02:33:30.020 | but is that obese person who lost 100 pounds by doing that,

02:33:34.220 | do I really care about maybe a small alteration

02:33:37.640 | to their gut microbiome?

02:33:39.080 | No, because their gut microbiome

02:33:40.540 | is actually much more healthy now

02:33:41.860 | by them having lost all that excess adipose tissue.

02:33:45.900 | So again, the ranking of what I'm worried about, you know,

02:33:50.540 | can change depending on the specific situation.

02:33:53.380 | Now, let's take somebody like me who's lean

02:33:56.060 | and doesn't really have, you know,

02:33:59.040 | any health problems that I'm aware of.

02:34:00.940 | What about artificial sweeteners for me?

02:34:06.220 | Well, for me, I kind of got using them

02:34:09.160 | because of bodybuilding contest prep,

02:34:10.940 | because it was about the only appetite suppressant

02:34:13.100 | that worked for me.

02:34:14.160 | But do I think that they are healthful?

02:34:20.200 | Probably not.

02:34:21.240 | Do I think they're unhealthy?

02:34:23.600 | I would say based on the current data,

02:34:26.900 | I don't think that they're unhealthy.

02:34:29.380 | Now, the information on blood glucose,

02:34:33.380 | so there's some of the problems

02:34:35.880 | with some of these meta-analyses or these reviews

02:34:38.700 | is they kind of lump all

02:34:40.260 | the non-nutritive sweeteners together.

02:34:42.700 | And then they may say, well, there's no effect on this,

02:34:44.900 | or there's an effect on this.

02:34:45.740 | Well, the problem is, is these probably are,

02:34:47.780 | these are different molecules

02:34:48.780 | and they can interact differently.

02:34:50.660 | Aspartame very clearly seems to have no effect

02:34:53.400 | on blood sugar or insulin.

02:34:55.600 | That has been repeatedly shown.

02:34:57.920 | Stevia doesn't appear to have much effect.

02:35:02.720 | Saccharin and sucralose, the jury is kind of mixed.

02:35:05.900 | Now, there was the study that we first connected on,

02:35:08.960 | which I think their primary outcome measure

02:35:11.620 | was actually they were looking at like kind of

02:35:13.340 | the sweet taste, like how it affected sweet taste.

02:35:16.600 | So what they did was the group that was getting

02:35:20.920 | the sucralose was also paired with maltodextrin.

02:35:25.140 | The control group was getting sucrose,

02:35:28.280 | which is an appropriate way to compare the sweet taste

02:35:33.280 | because maltodextrin is not as sweet as sucrose.

02:35:36.360 | So when you're trying to combine sucralose,

02:35:39.320 | which is already sweet, with another form of carbohydrate,

02:35:41.640 | you'd want something less sweet compared to your control.

02:35:45.100 | But for the outcome measure of insulin and blood glucose,

02:35:50.100 | probably not as appropriate because we know maltodextrin

02:35:54.540 | has a much higher glycemic index than sucrose.

02:35:58.680 | - So they appropriately controlled for taste,

02:36:02.400 | but not for the effect of the sweeteners.

02:36:04.700 | And I think that that was a key component.

02:36:07.420 | And I think, yeah, the part of that study that intrigued me

02:36:10.800 | actually was in a talk version of that

02:36:13.920 | because that study drove me to watch a talk that,

02:36:16.980 | and we'll get Dana Small on the podcast at some point,

02:36:19.520 | hopefully, was that they had kids do this study

02:36:22.800 | and they actually had to cease the study

02:36:24.240 | because a couple of the kids became pre-diabetic.

02:36:26.300 | I mean, it seemed like there was something hazardous about,

02:36:29.560 | this was at Yale School of Medicine, it's a good place.

02:36:31.400 | I mean, you know, there's a range everywhere,

02:36:34.720 | but it just seemed like there's something about sweet taste

02:36:38.580 | that if taken to the extreme,

02:36:40.720 | might be able to impact blood sugar too.

02:36:43.600 | This has impacted my sort of behavior in the,

02:36:48.600 | I try to avoid really sweet things

02:36:52.800 | unless they're exceptionally delicious

02:36:54.560 | or the occasion calls for them,

02:36:56.080 | because I do think that it increases my craving

02:36:58.420 | for sweet things.

02:36:59.740 | - Well, it might not be necessarily a craving,

02:37:02.420 | but it just programs you, so let's,

02:37:06.120 | your taste buds are extremely adaptable.

02:37:08.540 | So take, for example, like Indian food.

02:37:12.600 | If you bring like Indian people over to America

02:37:15.560 | and have them eat some of our food,

02:37:16.880 | they think it tastes extremely bland

02:37:19.240 | because they are used to such spicy food

02:37:22.300 | that unless they have a certain level of spice,

02:37:24.060 | they hardly even taste it.

02:37:25.840 | If you've ever done a high sodium diet

02:37:27.660 | and then gone to a low sodium diet, it feels very bland.

02:37:32.020 | - That's a styrofoam.

02:37:33.060 | - But you're, over time, your taste buds adjust.

02:37:36.860 | So sweet is the same thing.

02:37:38.020 | If you're used to eating a lot of sweet,

02:37:40.420 | you get kind of desensitized to it.

02:37:42.020 | And then if you go to something less sweet,

02:37:44.460 | it can kind of taste bland at first.

02:37:47.900 | Over time, it'll get better.

02:37:49.720 | But, so I think it's one of those things that,

02:37:53.600 | again, it depends on the situation, right?

02:37:55.560 | Like if somebody's obese and they said,

02:37:56.940 | well, this is gonna help me, you know,

02:37:59.100 | eliminate sugar-sweetened beverage,

02:38:01.200 | like why would you wanna take that tool away from them?

02:38:03.060 | Like that's a great lever to pull.

02:38:04.960 | I mean, if somebody can lose literally 100 pounds

02:38:08.080 | from just one change in lifestyle

02:38:10.120 | that's not even really that inconvenient of a change,

02:38:12.720 | that's, that is powerful.

02:38:16.180 | But, again, is it the most healthy thing they could do?

02:38:19.280 | And I think that's kind of like what tends to get asked.

02:38:22.080 | We don't know.

02:38:24.260 | Is it healthier than water?

02:38:26.580 | Probably not, maybe as healthy as it, who knows?

02:38:32.340 | Now, the, but I really make all those caveats

02:38:37.340 | because you don't want to have people

02:38:40.060 | who could use this as a tool think,

02:38:43.300 | well, no, I can't do this 'cause it's actually bad for me.

02:38:45.340 | - Right.

02:38:46.820 | - If it helps you lose 50 pounds or 75 pounds

02:38:49.480 | or whatever it is, trust me, it's not bad for you, right?

02:38:52.420 | - Well, it does seem to increase these satiety signals.

02:38:55.140 | What do you think about the microbiome effects

02:38:56.680 | in this recent study?

02:38:58.080 | 'Cause the recent study, I think,

02:38:59.160 | had some nice features to it.

02:39:01.060 | And you've done a detailed description of the study.

02:39:04.260 | So for those that want that-

02:39:05.100 | - Is this two-week study or the two-week study?

02:39:07.820 | - Yeah, and we will provide a link.

02:39:09.760 | You did an excellent video on this on your YouTube channel

02:39:12.440 | that really parses each piece,

02:39:13.860 | but they compared the various artificial sweeteners

02:39:16.660 | and looked at the glucose response,

02:39:19.800 | looked at microbiome, a number of different measures.

02:39:22.360 | What was your general takeaway?

02:39:23.740 | And this was in humans for the,

02:39:25.180 | for I think the first time looking at microbiome in humans

02:39:28.120 | due to artificial sweetener.

02:39:30.140 | - There are a few studies on the microbiome in humans

02:39:32.960 | with artificial sweeteners.

02:39:33.840 | The first two that came out showed pretty much no effect,

02:39:36.740 | but they were a little bit shorter in duration.

02:39:39.100 | They were like two to four weeks.

02:39:40.300 | And again, it depends on like what,

02:39:41.980 | what bacteria are getting measured, right?

02:39:43.460 | Like there's many different kinds of bacteria,

02:39:46.820 | so they could just be measuring one that didn't change.

02:39:50.140 | And then there was a 10-week study that came out

02:39:52.020 | that got a lot of press and they showed,

02:39:55.420 | I think it was sucralose, I think,

02:39:58.480 | they showed an effect of change on the gut microbiome.

02:40:03.100 | Now, what was interesting is when I went into

02:40:06.540 | the species that changed,

02:40:07.940 | the species that changed the most compared to control

02:40:11.260 | was a species called, I'm going to butcher the name,

02:40:14.620 | but it's like Blaudia cocoides, I think it's called.

02:40:16.980 | - I must say, for those that work on the microbiome,

02:40:20.220 | it's so difficult to pronounce any,

02:40:22.340 | you need a nomenclature committee and you need acronyms.

02:40:25.060 | I'm sorry, just do it enough already.

02:40:27.960 | You're killing us.

02:40:29.540 | - We'll call it BC, we'll call it BC.

02:40:31.020 | - Thank you.

02:40:31.860 | We're going to start the nomenclature committee without you

02:40:33.580 | if you don't do it soon.

02:40:35.220 | - So they noticed that this went up

02:40:38.300 | by like three to fourfold.

02:40:39.700 | So I kind of went down the rabbit hole on this.

02:40:41.900 | So interestingly, that particular species of bacteria

02:40:45.460 | is actually associated with lower adiposity,

02:40:47.940 | better insulin sensitivity, and people who are obese

02:40:51.780 | and children who are obese tend to have less of it.

02:40:54.580 | So I said, well, based on that study,

02:40:56.140 | you could actually argue that maybe sucralose

02:40:58.340 | actually improved the gut microbiome.

02:41:00.260 | Now, again, I'm not making that claim

02:41:01.820 | because we have a hard time understanding

02:41:05.300 | what a healthy microbiome looks like already.

02:41:08.980 | What this last study that came out, my biggest take home

02:41:12.860 | was I think it's safe to say

02:41:16.900 | that some of these non-nutritive sweeteners

02:41:18.860 | are not metabolically inert.

02:41:21.260 | There are some effects.

02:41:23.140 | Now, are those effects good, bad, or neutral?

02:41:26.620 | I think has yet to be fully elucidated.

02:41:29.400 | Now, I focused more on the blood glucose responses

02:41:34.400 | in my analysis.

02:41:36.040 | So in that 10-week study, they did oral glucose

02:41:39.500 | tolerance tests, and their conclusion,

02:41:44.500 | I didn't really feel like fit their data,

02:41:47.640 | so their conclusion was that, and again,

02:41:49.800 | I think it was sucralose, that it elevated blood glucose.

02:41:54.800 | And this is where statistics can get kind of tricky.

02:41:59.680 | So my take home was the area under the curve,

02:42:04.240 | the incremental area under the curve,

02:42:05.640 | which is looking at basically the entire glucose response,

02:42:09.180 | was not different between the control

02:42:11.020 | and the sucralose group.

02:42:12.440 | To me, that's the biggest take home.

02:42:14.420 | There was one time point at the end of the study

02:42:17.180 | in the sucralose group, the 30-minute time point,

02:42:19.520 | that was statistically significantly higher blood glucose

02:42:23.480 | than the control group.

02:42:25.440 | It's kind of one of those things where I go,

02:42:29.380 | okay, it was one time point.

02:42:30.840 | It's statistically significant, but even then,

02:42:34.620 | we've seen things be statistically significant

02:42:36.580 | that end up being data artifacts

02:42:37.980 | 'cause they're not reproduced.

02:42:39.540 | So I'm not saying that's what's happening here,

02:42:41.180 | but again, the overall area under the curve

02:42:43.640 | was not different.

02:42:44.480 | So to me, that was the biggest take home.

02:42:45.960 | - And papers, we should probably mention,

02:42:48.420 | are published because of effects, generally.

02:42:53.420 | Lack of effect, harder to publish.

02:42:55.340 | - Null hypothesis doesn't, it's actually really unfortunate

02:42:58.140 | because a null hypothesis is just as useful data

02:43:01.560 | as the non-null hypothesis, but you're right.

02:43:04.680 | There is a very strong publication bias

02:43:07.080 | towards showing an effect versus not.

02:43:10.420 | - Yeah, unless you can flip a field on its head entirely

02:43:13.320 | by showing something did not happen.

02:43:16.140 | Typically, the positive result out

02:43:18.580 | does the negative result in,

02:43:20.400 | positive meaning you see a result.

02:43:22.900 | And then, of course, it's one study.

02:43:24.560 | And I think that, as you talked about earlier,

02:43:29.520 | the center of mass of data in a given field

02:43:32.380 | are probably the best basis for what we should do

02:43:35.900 | in terms of, and so I'm not changing my behavior

02:43:38.980 | around the intake of artificial sweeteners.

02:43:42.040 | I personally am still going to consume stevia

02:43:44.100 | and aspartame in relatively small amounts.

02:43:46.940 | But now I'm thinking, well, okay,

02:43:50.240 | if something contains sucralose,

02:43:51.480 | I don't have to perhaps actively avoid it.

02:43:53.920 | Whereas before I was, I was actively avoiding it.

02:43:56.180 | So the new study I thought was very elegantly,

02:44:01.180 | very involved.

02:44:02.340 | I mean, to be quite frank,

02:44:04.300 | some of the animal stuff they did was extremely impressive.

02:44:07.900 | So there was actually two arms to this study.

02:44:09.420 | One was a human arm, one was the animal arm.

02:44:10.900 | I focused much more on the human side of it.

02:44:13.140 | So basically, this was a two-week study.

02:44:16.900 | And the really unique aspect of this,

02:44:19.320 | which I think is both a strength and a weakness,

02:44:22.740 | they had almost 1400 people apply for this study

02:44:27.700 | and they only had 120, I think, that actually went into it

02:44:31.420 | because they did a very detailed food analysis

02:44:34.720 | of these folks.

02:44:35.560 | All of these people said

02:44:36.380 | that they avoided artificial sweeteners

02:44:38.680 | or didn't consume them.

02:44:40.300 | And I think people don't realize

02:44:41.680 | how ubiquitous sweeteners are.

02:44:43.900 | - Prior to the study, these people were like,

02:44:45.460 | it was like jury selection.

02:44:46.820 | They'd never, it's like not ever hearing

02:44:48.660 | of the plaintiff and the defendant.

02:44:50.300 | These are these mutant people

02:44:51.980 | who have never had an artificial sweetener.

02:44:54.020 | - Right, so the strength is now you don't have a lot

02:44:58.060 | of like preexisting effects that may be clouding

02:45:02.540 | what would actually happen when you add it in.

02:45:04.020 | Like, for example, if you have people

02:45:05.700 | who are already consuming artificial sweeteners

02:45:08.920 | and then you have them consume artificial sweeteners,

02:45:11.660 | the likelihood things are gonna change is pretty low, right?

02:45:15.180 | So I think that that's a strength.

02:45:16.880 | It's also a weakness and I wanna be really careful

02:45:20.340 | because I think people took my words a little bit too far,

02:45:22.960 | which means I probably didn't do a good job

02:45:24.540 | of being nuanced enough.

02:45:25.780 | There is the possibility for a placebo effect here.

02:45:29.580 | So to me, if somebody has gone through

02:45:33.140 | that much painstaking care to avoid artificial sweeteners,

02:45:37.140 | it's likely they have a preconceived notion

02:45:38.860 | that those are bad for you.

02:45:40.260 | Like, because they're difficult to avoid.

02:45:42.340 | Yes, it's possible if they're eating

02:45:44.780 | a very minimally processed diet

02:45:45.940 | that they're just not exposed to them.

02:45:47.460 | And that's very true as well.

02:45:49.580 | But the other thing that the researchers acknowledged

02:45:52.260 | was they weren't able to blind the study.

02:45:55.340 | Because if you've never had an artificial sweetener before,

02:45:57.220 | you're only used to like regular sugar

02:45:59.180 | and you have an artificial sweetener, you know.

02:46:01.620 | - You taste it. - You know.

02:46:03.500 | It's still sweet, but it's not the same sweet.

02:46:05.140 | - Yeah, and there's an interesting effect there

02:46:06.600 | where a lot of people don't like the taste of aspartame

02:46:10.060 | the first time.

02:46:11.500 | I actually quit drinking diet soda for a while,

02:46:14.940 | thinking I should, and then had one.

02:46:16.880 | It tasted really, I can only describe it

02:46:19.140 | as kind of artificial, chemical.

02:46:21.260 | And then pretty soon it tasted great again.

02:46:23.620 | And so there is some attenuation there

02:46:25.820 | and whether or not that's central,

02:46:27.660 | meaning within the brain or peripheral, I don't know,

02:46:30.140 | but very interesting.

02:46:32.380 | Well, I see you as playing a critical role

02:46:35.940 | in defining what is and what isn't,

02:46:38.860 | what still needs to be determined

02:46:40.700 | in terms of this landscape and the entire landscape

02:46:43.300 | really of nutrition.

02:46:44.500 | - And that study did change my opinion

02:46:46.420 | in terms of, okay, I think we can clearly say

02:46:49.060 | now that like these aren't neutral,

02:46:52.380 | or sorry, that they're not inert, right?

02:46:54.900 | Like that was the thought process before

02:46:56.540 | was well, they're not digested or whatnot,

02:46:58.740 | so they must be inert.

02:47:00.700 | That doesn't appear to be the case.

02:47:02.480 | But again, like when we look at the blood glucose data,

02:47:07.160 | there's, and I'm not saying this is what happened.

02:47:11.820 | I wanna be very clear, not saying this is what happened.

02:47:14.020 | I'm saying it's possible this happened.

02:47:17.460 | And so this is why we need more studies to verify.

02:47:20.580 | If these people had a preconceived notion

02:47:22.300 | that artificial sweeteners were bad for them,

02:47:24.420 | it's possible knowing they're ingesting

02:47:26.660 | artificial sweeteners that they could have had

02:47:28.400 | a blood glucose response.

02:47:30.100 | Now, my pushback on my own point there would be,

02:47:34.900 | then we should have expected to see it

02:47:36.320 | in all the non-nutritive sweeteners, which they didn't.

02:47:39.880 | It was just in sucralose and saccharin.

02:47:41.580 | - Yeah, it was kind of a graded effect

02:47:42.980 | where sucralose and saccharin showed

02:47:44.500 | the most dramatic change.

02:47:46.400 | - Yep.

02:47:47.600 | - And Stevia and a few of the others did not.

02:47:51.240 | - And the other issue I took with it,

02:47:53.440 | maybe it's a ticky tack thing,

02:47:54.640 | was their primary outcome measure was blood glucose,

02:47:58.980 | the oral glucose tolerance test.

02:48:00.940 | But they had people administer

02:48:02.000 | their own oral glucose tolerance test,

02:48:03.700 | which basically they gave them, they said,

02:48:05.200 | okay, drink this drink.

02:48:06.400 | And they were wearing continuous glucose monitors,

02:48:08.180 | which should have been fine.

02:48:09.580 | But again, to me, and I'm being ticky tacky,

02:48:14.020 | and again, I know all studies are limited by funding.

02:48:17.040 | So I think overall, this was a great study,

02:48:19.940 | but I would have liked to seen them, you know,

02:48:23.480 | monitor the oral glucose tolerance test to administer it.

02:48:28.080 | - Yeah, and what they did before or after.

02:48:29.540 | - Yeah.

02:48:30.380 | - You want to know that they didn't ingest this

02:48:31.720 | or didn't ingest that.

02:48:32.560 | - Right.

02:48:33.380 | - Yeah.

02:48:34.220 | - Those two things.

02:48:35.060 | But the other, one of the caveat is,

02:48:37.860 | it was a two week study, right?

02:48:39.200 | So we gotta be really careful

02:48:40.460 | how much we interpret in this,

02:48:42.000 | because it's also possible that this is a transient effect.

02:48:45.220 | Right?

02:48:46.160 | And maybe it goes away over time.

02:48:47.600 | We don't know.

02:48:48.440 | But again, I think it's, we can clearly say,

02:48:53.000 | it's not inert, right?

02:48:55.380 | Now, how much emphasis we put on that on a two week study,

02:48:59.100 | I still will say, okay,

02:49:03.820 | maybe if you're worried, don't consume sucralose, right?

02:49:08.300 | But if you're, you know, 100 pounds overweight,

02:49:12.700 | and you want to use some sucralose as a replacement

02:49:15.960 | to help you lose weight,

02:49:17.540 | I would say don't let this study deter you from doing that.

02:49:20.380 | Because the net effect is still gonna be more positive

02:49:23.540 | than you not losing the weight, right?

02:49:26.100 | So if it's a tool that helps you, fine.

02:49:28.460 | But I do hold open the idea that, well,

02:49:30.940 | there could be negative effects from it as well.

02:49:33.760 | But again, we're looking at like,

02:49:34.960 | what's the, what is the overall outcome, right?

02:49:38.060 | And then when I looked at,

02:49:40.100 | they examined like some of the different things

02:49:42.440 | that were increased with these different sweeteners.

02:49:46.100 | And again, this word gets messy

02:49:48.100 | because one of the things they saw was a big increase

02:49:50.220 | in butyrate production from the change

02:49:52.820 | in the gut microbiome, presumably.

02:49:55.020 | Well, as we discussed earlier,

02:49:56.020 | butyrate's actually associated with like positive outcomes

02:49:58.780 | in terms of insulin sensitivity,

02:49:59.980 | inflammation, and some other things.

02:50:02.320 | So I just, I want to be real cautious before people say,

02:50:05.000 | well, there's a change in the microbiome,

02:50:06.220 | it must be a bad change.

02:50:07.940 | We don't know, it's possible.

02:50:10.220 | And again, if we have, you know,

02:50:12.060 | 10 more studies come out and start to show this,

02:50:14.180 | then I will start to shift my personal opinion

02:50:17.340 | of artificial sweeteners.

02:50:18.840 | - So in anticipation of sitting down today,

02:50:21.160 | I did solicit for questions on social media.

02:50:25.700 | And one of the questions that got a lot of up votes,

02:50:30.220 | likes if you will,

02:50:32.140 | was one that I think raises interesting questions

02:50:34.960 | about short-term and long-term health.

02:50:36.840 | And it's the following.

02:50:37.820 | I think it's a common scenario.

02:50:39.380 | A number of people want to know,

02:50:42.660 | what is the healthiest way to approach

02:50:45.460 | a kind of rapid weight loss?

02:50:47.620 | And here, what I think is happening

02:50:49.040 | is somebody has an event coming up,

02:50:51.500 | or they're just tired of being the weight they are,

02:50:55.500 | or carrying the amount of adipose tissue they are.

02:50:58.020 | And they wanted to know whether or not it is safe

02:51:02.500 | to, for instance, lose three pounds a week for a few weeks

02:51:06.220 | in anticipation of a wedding or some other event.

02:51:09.280 | And whether or not straight caloric restriction

02:51:12.080 | and increasing activity is the best way to approach that.

02:51:16.300 | With the understanding that they may gain back

02:51:18.120 | a little afterwards, they might make,

02:51:19.660 | I think ideally they'd like to maintain it afterwards.

02:51:22.740 | But what do you think of that sort of approach?

02:51:24.980 | You know, cutting caloric intake in half, for instance,

02:51:29.380 | and then doubling and also doubling your physical output.

02:51:33.580 | - So it's interesting because the,

02:51:37.540 | you might be surprised by what I'm gonna say,

02:51:39.660 | which is the research data actually tends to suggest

02:51:42.220 | that people who are obese, who lose a lot more weight early,

02:51:46.940 | are more likely to keep it off.

02:51:49.000 | Which seems a little bit kind of contradictory, right?

02:51:52.100 | Like, well, that doesn't seem very sustainable.

02:51:54.620 | But again, you're weighing competing things.

02:51:56.780 | So there's sustainability aspect,

02:51:58.180 | but then there's also like buy-in

02:51:59.980 | is huge for sustainability, right?

02:52:02.540 | So for a lot of overweight or obese people,

02:52:05.220 | if they start a diet and they don't see something quickly,

02:52:08.980 | they kind of bail on it because it's not working.

02:52:11.700 | Whereas if they see some rapid results pretty quickly,

02:52:14.320 | they buy in even harder, right?

02:52:16.500 | And so I think the conversation,

02:52:19.040 | especially for if there's any coaches or trainers out there,

02:52:22.620 | is just presenting that as the,

02:52:26.300 | one of my favorite lines is there are no solutions,

02:52:28.140 | there's only trade-offs.

02:52:29.580 | I think Thomas Sowell said that.

02:52:32.380 | So you're having a trade-off here.

02:52:35.520 | It is, yes, you're gonna lose fat faster.

02:52:41.260 | You might lose lean mass a little bit faster too,

02:52:43.620 | which can be a problem.

02:52:44.980 | But I will say the more adipose tissue you have,

02:52:49.180 | the more aggressively you can diet

02:52:51.080 | without negative consequences.

02:52:53.300 | Somebody like me doing a really aggressive diet

02:52:55.580 | is not gonna be good for my lean mass.

02:52:57.660 | One, I have a higher lean mass than normal.

02:53:00.380 | Two, I have a lower body fat than normal.

02:53:02.940 | As your body fat goes down,

02:53:05.500 | the percentage of weight loss from lean mass goes up.

02:53:09.260 | So people who are very obese,

02:53:12.740 | because they have so much adipose tissue to pull from,

02:53:15.740 | there's very little reason for the body

02:53:17.340 | to catabolize lean tissue.

02:53:19.480 | Now, that being said, if you go on a,

02:53:23.700 | people misinterpret, they're like,

02:53:25.560 | well, I got an in-body done or a DEXA done

02:53:28.980 | and I've lost two pounds of lean mass

02:53:31.740 | and they've lost 20 pounds overall.

02:53:34.140 | Well, keep in mind, adipose tissue itself is 13% lean mass.

02:53:38.780 | So there's actually protein component

02:53:41.400 | to the structural component of the adipose tissue

02:53:43.820 | and it does have some water.

02:53:45.180 | So it's about 87% lipid, but the other part is lean.

02:53:49.320 | So at minimum, you should expect a 13% reduction

02:53:52.700 | in lean mass when you diet.

02:53:54.640 | And then when you consider you lose body water overall,

02:53:57.620 | which is registers as lean mass and you lose,

02:54:01.580 | your splanchnic tissues can shrink a little bit.

02:54:04.060 | So it's normal to lose, for the average person to lose

02:54:07.760 | like 25 or 30% of the weight that they lose from lean mass,

02:54:12.380 | but that doesn't mean skeletal muscle tissue.

02:54:15.700 | And again, the more adipose you have,

02:54:18.380 | the more aggressively you can approach the diet

02:54:21.220 | without really negative long-term consequences

02:54:24.700 | to lean mass or your overall health.

02:54:26.860 | But balance that with, okay, if I'm gonna do this,

02:54:30.000 | I need to understand that I'm not gonna be dieting

02:54:32.260 | this way forever.

02:54:33.740 | I'm doing this to give myself a boost to the beginning

02:54:36.080 | and I have to be okay at some point

02:54:37.840 | with transitioning to something

02:54:39.060 | that's a little bit more sustainable.

02:54:40.900 | - Based on what you just said,

02:54:43.200 | it reminds me of the satiety signal effect of exercise

02:54:47.520 | you mentioned earlier, that exercising can improve

02:54:49.980 | our sense of when we've had enough to eat.

02:54:54.100 | I just want to briefly mention that when Ali Krum

02:54:56.860 | was on the podcast, she mentioned that they'd been doing

02:55:00.700 | a study that I have to pair you to

02:55:02.900 | and hear the conversation as a fly on the wall,

02:55:05.540 | because what she was telling me was that

02:55:07.780 | if people believe that a food is nutritious for them,

02:55:12.060 | then eating less of it registers as more satiating.

02:55:16.500 | Whereas if people view dieting as a deprivation system,

02:55:20.540 | like, oh, you know, dieting is hard and the food sucks

02:55:24.320 | and it's terrible.

02:55:25.360 | Well, then they crave all sorts of other things.

02:55:27.820 | Whereas they actually observe in their studies

02:55:30.620 | where people report reduced craving,

02:55:32.340 | if they are told, for instance,

02:55:33.780 | a chicken breast and broccoli and some olive oil and rice

02:55:36.260 | is actually quite nourishing.

02:55:37.820 | It's actually really good for you.

02:55:39.500 | Then people eat that and they feel

02:55:41.260 | like they've actually eaten more.

02:55:42.780 | The satiety signaling goes up.

02:55:44.700 | So it's just a point that Ali made,

02:55:46.820 | those aren't my data.

02:55:47.660 | - Satiety is so impressive because even the rate

02:55:51.140 | at which you eat and right down to the size of the plate

02:55:55.300 | and the color of the plate, like the contrast in color.

02:55:59.560 | - Really?

02:56:00.400 | - They see, I can't remember exactly.

02:56:02.300 | I think it's if the plate is a similar color to the food,

02:56:07.300 | I think people eat more.

02:56:10.380 | Whereas if it's a bigger contrast, they eat less.

02:56:13.520 | So even like plate color can make a difference

02:56:16.220 | on how much you eat.

02:56:17.060 | Again, human brain, very amazing,

02:56:18.940 | but also very dumb in some ways, right?

02:56:20.900 | - Not an optimized algorithm.

02:56:22.700 | - I always joke with people.

02:56:24.140 | I'm like, just look at how stupid humans are.

02:56:26.220 | You put some water in front of them,

02:56:27.820 | like the ocean, they're like,

02:56:29.500 | oh yeah, I'll pay 10 times more for this.

02:56:31.500 | But it's just, we're kind of wired that way.

02:56:35.080 | - The reward signaling pathways in the brain

02:56:39.540 | run one chemical mainly, dopamine.

02:56:42.940 | There are others, of course, and very few algorithms.

02:56:46.420 | It's sort of like a intermittent reinforcement

02:56:49.900 | is one random reinforcement,

02:56:51.460 | but in the end that there aren't many algorithms

02:56:53.340 | and we are probably not optimized,

02:56:54.700 | certainly not optimized for our own health

02:56:56.180 | because people will eat themselves to death,

02:56:58.240 | drug themselves to death, et cetera,

02:57:00.060 | simply because something felt good at one point.

02:57:03.040 | It proves your point.

02:57:04.260 | - One of the things I tell people,

02:57:06.060 | I said this on Andy Frisella's podcast was,

02:57:09.680 | interestingly, the dichotomy of life is

02:57:13.860 | if you do what's easy in the short term,

02:57:16.060 | your life will be hard.

02:57:17.820 | If you do what's hard in the short term,

02:57:19.700 | your life will get easier.

02:57:21.100 | It's very strange, and actually,

02:57:22.500 | Ethan Suplee had a great example of this.

02:57:25.260 | When he was over 500 pounds, he said,

02:57:27.240 | the amount of work I had to do to construct my life

02:57:31.420 | that I could just live was so much more work

02:57:35.780 | than just going to the gym for a couple hours a day.

02:57:39.780 | He's like, the gym work is hard.

02:57:41.780 | He's like, but when I look back how much work I had to do

02:57:44.860 | to sustain that lifestyle versus just going to the gym

02:57:48.560 | and restricting calories, he's like,

02:57:52.160 | to maintain the lifestyle of being 500 pounds

02:57:54.740 | was infinitely more difficult than what I do now.

02:57:58.540 | And so, again, a great example, short term, hard,

02:58:02.180 | going to the gym, calorie restriction,

02:58:04.580 | long term, life's easier.

02:58:07.000 | Just really interesting dichotomy, I think, about a lot.

02:58:09.620 | - And it can't be restated often enough, seed oils.

02:58:15.460 | People want to ask about seed oils.

02:58:17.580 | And for those of you that are listening

02:58:20.440 | who are wondering why we're sort of chuckling already,

02:58:23.540 | I should mention that both in the Twitter sphere

02:58:26.620 | and Instagram and online,

02:58:28.460 | there are these very polarized views

02:58:30.880 | that probably aren't worth focusing on for too long,

02:58:33.080 | but there are a number of folks out there

02:58:35.340 | who are arguing that seed oils are the source of all,

02:58:38.900 | you know, the obesity epidemic, inflammation, et cetera.

02:58:42.700 | - Illuminating. - Everything.

02:58:44.580 | And then there are those that would argue just the opposite

02:58:48.180 | that, you know, meat is the source of all problems, et cetera.

02:58:50.700 | And I think we've, thanks to your nuance and expertise,

02:58:54.220 | we've hopefully appropriately framed things

02:58:57.180 | that it's never that black and white.

02:58:58.900 | It's simply not.

02:58:59.860 | - Rarely. - Rarely.

02:59:02.240 | I love olive oil.

02:59:04.480 | I realize that doesn't fit exactly

02:59:06.060 | into the seed oil category.

02:59:08.060 | I love olive oil.

02:59:09.300 | I use it in moderation.

02:59:10.900 | I do also consume some butter in moderation, et cetera.

02:59:14.680 | But are there any data on seed oils?

02:59:17.540 | And here, a good example I think would be like canola oil,

02:59:20.220 | which comes from the rape seed

02:59:21.860 | that literally was renamed canola oil

02:59:24.360 | because rape seed oil is not good marketing.

02:59:27.420 | - No, no, exactly.

02:59:28.960 | So the first thing I'll say is seed oils

02:59:35.620 | have negatively contributed to our overall health

02:59:38.300 | because people in the last, you know, 20, 30 years,

02:59:43.060 | what they have tended to add into their diet

02:59:46.420 | that has increased the overall calorie load is oil,

02:59:49.540 | like these various, mostly from seed oils.

02:59:52.400 | But when we look at like one-to-one replacement

02:59:57.620 | with other fats, and so I, if you look at the epidemiology,

03:00:02.220 | yeah, you can find some epidemiology showing people

03:00:04.620 | who consume more seed oil

03:00:05.780 | have more negative health outcomes,

03:00:07.980 | problem is, again, tied up

03:00:09.660 | with a multitude of other behaviors.

03:00:12.260 | And then you can find mechanisms and the idea is,

03:00:15.020 | well, these have, they're polyunsaturated,

03:00:18.620 | which means in the fatty acid chain,

03:00:21.220 | there's multiple double bonds,

03:00:23.260 | which those double bonds can be oxidized

03:00:25.600 | when they're exposed to heat and some other things.

03:00:29.420 | And so the idea is, well, when you cook with these things

03:00:31.620 | and, you know, they may get oxidized

03:00:35.820 | and that's gonna cause inflammation in your body.

03:00:38.220 | So that's a plausible mechanism.

03:00:42.820 | So as always, I defer to the human randomized control trials.

03:00:47.820 | And so what you tend to find

03:00:52.220 | is when you substitute polyunsaturated fats,

03:00:56.060 | or sorry, when you substitute saturated fats

03:00:57.920 | for polyunsaturated fats,

03:00:59.660 | it's either neutral or positive in terms of the effects on,

03:01:04.000 | like inflammation is basically neutral.

03:01:07.180 | There's some studies that show a positive effect

03:01:09.980 | of doing polyunsaturated fats,

03:01:12.280 | but it probably depends

03:01:13.420 | on the individual polyunsaturated fat.

03:01:15.720 | And that's the other thing I don't really,

03:01:17.480 | is difficult because you're categorizing

03:01:19.400 | like everything in this one bucket

03:01:20.960 | and there are some differences

03:01:22.720 | between individual fatty acids.

03:01:25.240 | Even with saturated fat, like for example,

03:01:27.840 | stearic acid doesn't tend to raise LDL cholesterol,

03:01:31.420 | whereas, you know, saturated fat as a whole tends to raise

03:01:34.100 | LDL cholesterol, but there are some saturated fats

03:01:36.940 | that don't.

03:01:38.500 | So again, it's like we're putting things in buckets

03:01:40.740 | and it's a little more nuanced than that.

03:01:43.060 | Then if you look at like the effects

03:01:45.420 | of polyunsaturated fats

03:01:49.540 | on markers of cardiovascular disease,

03:01:52.580 | again, tends to either be a neutral or positive effect

03:01:55.740 | when you substitute saturated fat

03:01:58.180 | for polyunsaturated fat.

03:02:00.360 | Now, if you want to get into like monounsaturated

03:02:02.220 | versus polyunsaturated, there's some,

03:02:05.700 | there's quite a bit of disagreement between the studies.

03:02:07.780 | What I would say,

03:02:09.300 | based on the human randomized control trials,

03:02:11.860 | is that you're probably better off consuming

03:02:15.620 | monounsaturated and polyunsaturated

03:02:17.660 | in place of saturated fat.

03:02:19.720 | But again, if the idea is, well,

03:02:22.680 | that means polyunsaturated are good for me,

03:02:24.580 | so I'm just gonna dump a bunch of oil on everything

03:02:26.620 | and now you're upping your calories,

03:02:28.060 | well, that's a negative now, right?

03:02:30.020 | Because you have to deal with the bigger problem

03:02:31.540 | of overall energy toxicity.

03:02:33.740 | So I'm not somebody who likes

03:02:36.360 | to demonize individual nutrients.

03:02:38.180 | I just haven't seen really compelling evidence

03:02:40.580 | that seed oils are the root cause

03:02:43.220 | of the problems that are being suggested.

03:02:45.460 | And I think this is a good example of kind of like,

03:02:49.040 | whenever there's something that pops up

03:02:50.960 | in the fitness industry,

03:02:52.300 | there's always like the opposite thing that pops up

03:02:54.700 | and it's like the reactionary, extreme reaction

03:02:58.380 | to whatever this thing was over here.

03:03:00.860 | And I think that's what we're seeing

03:03:01.780 | with some of the seed oil stuff,

03:03:03.260 | is it's mostly people who are trying to kind of

03:03:06.980 | expose the virtues of saturated fat.

03:03:10.100 | And listen, I think it's fine to consume some saturated fat,

03:03:14.180 | but again, I think limiting it to seven to 10%

03:03:19.180 | of your daily calorie intake is probably wise,

03:03:22.900 | again, based on all the consensus of the evidence

03:03:28.580 | I've seen.

03:03:30.320 | And so once again, like we're struggling with this,

03:03:32.620 | okay, we've got this epidemiology and these mechanisms

03:03:35.480 | that sound good, but then what actually happens

03:03:38.920 | when we do some human randomized control trials.

03:03:41.440 | And so far, I just haven't seen the evidence

03:03:44.380 | to suggest that seed oils are independently bad for you,

03:03:49.380 | independent of the calories they contain.

03:03:53.060 | - You said the words overall energy toxicity,

03:03:56.140 | and I just want to highlight that I think

03:03:57.900 | that's a fabulous term.

03:03:59.580 | I don't think enough people think about that

03:04:02.940 | because they are primed or we are all primed to think,

03:04:06.380 | okay, seed oils might be bad

03:04:08.660 | or artificial sweeteners might be bad,

03:04:10.300 | or this particular component of blood work

03:04:13.220 | might represent something good or bad

03:04:15.220 | without taking into account overall energy toxicity,

03:04:19.140 | the toxicity of over-consuming calories, energy.

03:04:23.700 | And thank you for pointing out that most of the data

03:04:28.460 | point to the fact that saturated fat

03:04:30.940 | should make up about no more than 7% to 10%

03:04:34.220 | of total daily caloric intake.

03:04:36.240 | Is there a lower end threshold that can be problematic?

03:04:40.380 | For instance, I've noticed that my blood profiles,

03:04:43.540 | especially in terms of hormones,

03:04:45.860 | improve when I'm getting sufficient saturated fat.

03:04:49.160 | Maybe I'm a mutant, but years ago,

03:04:51.600 | because I'm a product of growing up in the '90s,

03:04:53.580 | I tried a low fat diet.

03:04:55.060 | It certainly crushed my androgen levels.

03:04:57.620 | I started adding some butter back in

03:04:59.060 | and I was right back in the sweet zone

03:05:02.140 | where I wanted to be.

03:05:03.580 | So, you know, 7% to 10% of daily caloric intake,

03:05:07.500 | I'm guessing is probably about what I do now.

03:05:09.780 | I'll have to check.

03:05:11.020 | But is there a danger to going too low in saturated fats?

03:05:14.940 | - So again, no solutions, only trade-offs, right?

03:05:17.900 | What maximizes out testosterone

03:05:20.180 | might not be the best thing for longevity, right?

03:05:22.460 | And vice versa.

03:05:23.820 | And I'm not making that claim specifically,

03:05:25.860 | but I think it's important to understand this,

03:05:27.260 | that I think we all have this idea

03:05:28.580 | that there's this one iconic diet out there

03:05:32.280 | that is going to be the best diet for building muscle

03:05:35.300 | and burning fat and preventing cancer and heart disease.

03:05:38.980 | And the reality is like,

03:05:40.520 | there's overall healthy dietary patterns that we see

03:05:43.460 | that are good for those things.

03:05:45.460 | But when we get down into the weeds,

03:05:47.320 | there's probably some push and pull here as well, right?

03:05:50.320 | So when it comes to saturated fat,

03:05:53.360 | there is some evidence that if you're too low on it,

03:05:59.640 | that yes, you can have a reduction in testosterone.

03:06:02.060 | Now, is that reduction in testosterone,

03:06:04.660 | let's say 15, 20%, whatever it may be,

03:06:07.560 | is that sufficient to actually cause loss of lean mass?

03:06:10.420 | That we don't know.

03:06:11.440 | That's never been shown.

03:06:13.120 | Interestingly, I just remembered this,

03:06:15.400 | there was one study that was comparing,

03:06:18.580 | (sighs)

03:06:20.400 | polyunsaturated fat versus saturated fat,

03:06:23.760 | and they equated total fat.

03:06:28.020 | And one of the really interesting things was

03:06:30.340 | the group getting the polyunsaturated fat

03:06:33.140 | had more lean mass at the end of the study

03:06:35.380 | compared to the group getting saturated fat.

03:06:37.560 | Now, it's only one study, I've never seen this replicated.

03:06:39.740 | So I'm very, this is a situation where I say,

03:06:44.740 | I would like to find out what the mechanism of that is,

03:06:47.120 | because this could just be random.

03:06:48.880 | But if that gets shown over and over,

03:06:53.560 | what I might say is, okay, well,

03:06:55.900 | if polyunsaturateds are somehow increasing lean mass

03:07:01.580 | compared to saturated fat,

03:07:02.700 | who cares what happens with testosterone,

03:07:04.340 | unless that reduction in testosterone

03:07:06.180 | is causing some kind of impotence for your life, right?

03:07:09.740 | So all that to say, I don't really know.

03:07:14.540 | And by the way, that's something for those watching

03:07:17.840 | and listening, real experts, every once in a while,

03:07:20.620 | you should hear them say the following words, I don't know.

03:07:22.880 | - Exactly, my graduate advisor was exceptional at that,

03:07:25.780 | and she was brilliant, right?

03:07:27.440 | - And then in terms of cholesterol synthesis,

03:07:31.060 | you really need a very, very small amount of saturated fat

03:07:34.580 | for LDL cholesterol synthesis.

03:07:36.380 | Your liver can synthesize.

03:07:38.140 | The amount of LDL cholesterol or cholesterol

03:07:41.560 | that your body requires is so small

03:07:44.020 | in terms of just living and being healthy.

03:07:46.700 | So I don't think you need to worry about that.

03:07:49.940 | And from a cardiovascular disease standpoint,

03:07:52.300 | there is some evidence that even taking people

03:07:54.260 | who have quote-unquote low LDL of 80 or 90

03:07:57.820 | and taking them down to 30 or 40,

03:07:59.900 | that there is still a benefit

03:08:03.480 | for the risk of cardiovascular disease.

03:08:05.820 | So again, you're weighing these two buckets, right?

03:08:08.980 | So what I say, if you're doing 7 to 10% from saturated fat,

03:08:12.460 | you're probably fine.

03:08:14.660 | - I received a lot of questions about whether or not

03:08:17.540 | there are female-specific diet and exercise protocols.

03:08:21.460 | And I realize this is a vast landscape,

03:08:23.940 | but some of those questions related to menopause

03:08:27.580 | and premenopause, and some related to the menstrual cycle,

03:08:30.380 | most related to variations across the menstrual cycle.

03:08:33.760 | In terms of, let's just say,

03:08:37.540 | diet maintenance or sub-caloric diet,

03:08:42.140 | are there any things that you've observed?

03:08:44.820 | We'll talk a little bit later about this wonderful app

03:08:48.180 | that you've produced, this carbon app,

03:08:49.980 | which helps people manage their energy intake

03:08:52.900 | and a number of other things.

03:08:54.500 | And so there you have a sort of a database,

03:08:56.660 | or at least an experience base.

03:08:58.460 | And then I'm guessing there are probably also studies

03:09:00.620 | exploring male versus female differences

03:09:02.820 | in terms of adherence and what sorts of diets work.

03:09:06.140 | Are there any general themes

03:09:07.280 | that one can extract from that?

03:09:09.100 | - It's going to be a really unpopular segment for the women.

03:09:12.540 | Doesn't seem to make a big difference.

03:09:13.940 | - Well, actually they may be relieved to hear that

03:09:16.100 | because it would make sorting through the information space

03:09:18.860 | and certainly the information we've covered

03:09:20.380 | in this podcast up until now simpler.

03:09:22.140 | It means that everything isn't different for them.

03:09:24.260 | - Yeah, so if you look at the male versus female studies

03:09:29.260 | relation to diet, they seem to respond to some similar way,

03:09:32.720 | like similar calorie deficit

03:09:35.060 | seems to produce similar results.

03:09:37.700 | If you do low carb, high carb, regardless,

03:09:41.300 | it seems to boil down to the same principles.

03:09:44.340 | Now training wise, we do know that female,

03:09:46.940 | like the muscle fibers adapt a little bit differently

03:09:49.040 | to training, but without getting too far into the weeds,

03:09:53.180 | it doesn't really change the way you should train

03:09:55.580 | because for the most part building muscle,

03:09:58.400 | there's a lot of different ways to build muscle.

03:10:00.840 | So we know that like light loads up to maybe like 30 reps

03:10:07.420 | as long as it's taken close to failure

03:10:09.860 | have basically the same effect on building muscle,

03:10:12.580 | at least in the short term as heavy loads for low reps.

03:10:17.400 | It's mostly about taking the muscle

03:10:19.140 | close to fatigue or failure, right?

03:10:21.260 | You don't have to go to failure,

03:10:23.620 | but getting close within a few reps.

03:10:26.380 | If you're between one rep and 30 reps,

03:10:29.100 | if you're getting close to failure,

03:10:31.040 | seem to produce similar results.

03:10:33.500 | So again, great, you can pick with whichever form

03:10:36.540 | of discomfort you prefer, right?

03:10:38.900 | When it comes to female specific training,

03:10:43.440 | again, females actually,

03:10:46.380 | this is one thing that a lot of people don't know,

03:10:48.140 | they actually put on a similar amount of lean mass

03:10:52.660 | as a percentage of their starting lean mass as men.

03:10:56.020 | In fact, there's no statistically significant difference

03:10:58.220 | in the amount of lean mass they put on.

03:11:00.120 | Now, the absolute amount of lean mass that's added

03:11:02.660 | will be greater for men because they started

03:11:04.280 | with a greater amount of lean mass.

03:11:06.000 | But the relative increase in lean mass

03:11:07.940 | is pretty much the same from similar training.

03:11:10.500 | Now, females, there's some differences in like fiber types.

03:11:16.380 | Females tend to be a little bit less fatigable than men.

03:11:19.440 | They can go a little bit harder, a little bit longer.

03:11:22.020 | And there's also some evidence

03:11:23.580 | that they recover a little bit better.

03:11:25.660 | But that also could be simply due to the fact

03:11:30.160 | that they're not able to use as heavy of loads

03:11:34.080 | to induce hypertrophy.

03:11:36.780 | So I kind of have this theory that while,

03:11:40.180 | as a percentage of one rep max, you can program things,

03:11:43.300 | I think absolute load matters.

03:11:44.980 | When you look at like the most elite powerlifters,

03:11:48.040 | the super heavyweights aren't squatting

03:11:49.640 | three or four times a week

03:11:51.100 | because they're squatting eight, 900 pounds.

03:11:55.100 | I think that there's an overall recovery effect there.

03:11:59.820 | Again, I have no data to back this up.

03:12:01.180 | This is just my observation.

03:12:03.560 | But when you get into the lighter weight classes,

03:12:05.260 | and this goes for men too,

03:12:06.600 | you do see quite a few people who do many training sessions

03:12:11.220 | at high RPEs and seem to be able to recover from that.

03:12:14.980 | So I do think the absolute load makes a difference.

03:12:17.740 | Now, when it comes to like menstrual cycle,

03:12:21.740 | this is one of those things where I kind of tell people,

03:12:25.220 | do what you prefer.

03:12:26.760 | So there's some people who have said you should program,

03:12:28.720 | you should like kind of schedule your training

03:12:30.620 | around your menstrual cycle,

03:12:31.900 | which is whenever you're going through your menstrual cycle,

03:12:36.360 | reduce the intensity, reduce the volume

03:12:38.920 | because you're not gonna feel as good,

03:12:41.100 | you're not gonna train as well.

03:12:42.660 | What I would say is just auto-regulate that.

03:12:44.840 | If you go in and you're on your period,

03:12:46.340 | but you feel good and you're doing well that day,

03:12:49.640 | then I don't think you necessarily need to back it off.

03:12:51.740 | And there was one study that kind of supported that notion.

03:12:55.500 | But if you go in and you feel terrible

03:12:57.360 | and you feel like you could use a reduction

03:13:00.960 | in intensity and volume,

03:13:02.380 | then it's totally fine to auto-regulate that.

03:13:04.340 | And when I say auto-regulation,

03:13:06.240 | auto-regulation means you are regulating

03:13:09.300 | the individual training session based on your performance.

03:13:13.140 | So I auto-regulate in so far as like I'm a super nerd,

03:13:18.140 | so I have a velocity device,

03:13:21.080 | so I can actually attach to the bar

03:13:23.220 | and see how fast the load moves.

03:13:24.980 | And I know at various different like warmup weights,

03:13:27.900 | what velocities I should be hitting.

03:13:29.860 | So if I hit my last warmup

03:13:31.260 | and my velocity is about 10% higher than usual,

03:13:34.320 | I can be pretty confident

03:13:35.520 | that that's gonna be a good day for me.

03:13:37.080 | If it's lower, then I can back it off a little bit.

03:13:39.820 | In fact, at Worlds, when I hit my last deadlift,

03:13:42.940 | it was 30%, my last deadlift warmup,

03:13:47.080 | it was 30% faster than I usually hit in the gym.

03:13:49.480 | And I turned and looked at my coach and I said,

03:13:51.320 | yeah, we're gonna get this today. (laughs)

03:13:53.700 | So there's various forms of ways to auto-regulate.

03:13:55.820 | But again, women, if you're on your period,

03:13:58.780 | but you feel good, I don't think there's any reason

03:14:00.420 | you need to back off.

03:14:01.700 | But if you're not feeling good,

03:14:03.180 | then it's totally appropriate to back off.

03:14:05.860 | - Raw versus cooked foods.

03:14:07.380 | People wanted to know whether or not, for instance,

03:14:10.900 | eating a raw apple versus, I don't know,

03:14:13.840 | does anyone cook apples?

03:14:14.860 | I guess people used to bake,

03:14:16.340 | they were baked apples was a dessert when I was a kid.

03:14:18.340 | It was kind of the letdown dessert.

03:14:19.900 | Sorry, mom.

03:14:20.740 | It was kind of like not awesome

03:14:21.740 | unless it had a scoop of ice cream in it.

03:14:23.540 | Even then, maybe not awesome.

03:14:25.740 | But anyway, raw versus cooked.

03:14:28.480 | Obviously, if you burn a piece of meat

03:14:31.340 | to the point where it's pure charcoal, that's too much.

03:14:33.740 | And if there is a small movement

03:14:37.380 | surrounding eating raw meats,

03:14:39.000 | that's not something I particularly enjoy.

03:14:41.200 | Frankly, sushi is the only raw food I personally ingest.

03:14:44.760 | And I am very careful about the sourcing, frankly.

03:14:48.600 | Reputable places.

03:14:49.800 | Is there anything real about this

03:14:53.120 | in terms of being able to extract the amino acids,

03:14:56.060 | vitamins, and minerals from the food raw versus cooked?

03:14:59.080 | - It just looks cool for Instagram.

03:15:01.500 | So when you cook foods, they actually tend to become,

03:15:05.200 | in terms of protein-containing foods,

03:15:06.840 | they tend to become more digestible, not less.

03:15:09.820 | Eggs are this way, meats are this way.

03:15:12.720 | People say, well, when you heat protein, you denature it.

03:15:17.360 | And I think they hear that word denature

03:15:19.380 | and they think destroy.

03:15:20.700 | And that is not what denature means.

03:15:22.240 | So proteins fold up into 3D dimensional structures.

03:15:25.940 | You know this, of course, based on their amino acid sequence

03:15:28.920 | and their specific energies of those amino acids.

03:15:32.000 | When you heat protein or add acid,

03:15:35.360 | it starts to unfold that protein structure.

03:15:40.360 | That happens during digestion anyway.

03:15:43.840 | So I always chuckle when I've seen some companies come out

03:15:46.640 | with way that you can cook with, right?

03:15:48.880 | That's not gonna destroy the amino acids.

03:15:51.160 | I'm like, so you mean like regular whey, right?

03:15:54.220 | So yeah, typically cooking actually makes amino acids

03:15:59.220 | more bioavailable, not less.

03:16:01.500 | Now I would stay away from charring your meat

03:16:05.960 | because there is some evidence that charring

03:16:09.040 | creates polyaromatic hydrocarbons,

03:16:11.600 | which at least in animals, when they give those,

03:16:15.040 | they appear to be carcinogenic.

03:16:16.480 | So if you do charring meat by accident,

03:16:18.700 | I would just cut off the charred portions

03:16:20.820 | and then you should be fine.

03:16:22.280 | - The char is delicious.

03:16:24.740 | Not if it's charred too much,

03:16:26.340 | but there is something about a charred crust on a meat.

03:16:28.460 | My dad's Argentine and I have like a good char with you.

03:16:31.400 | What about, people referred to them in their questions

03:16:35.220 | as carb blockers, but I think what they're referring to

03:16:37.780 | are things like berberine and some of the glucose

03:16:40.340 | scavengers and one glucose scavenger I'd love for you

03:16:43.220 | to comment on is this assertion that taking a brisk walk

03:16:46.320 | after a meal, or maybe even a slow walk after a meal,

03:16:48.800 | some movement can help downshift the amount

03:16:53.060 | of circulating glucose in some way.

03:16:54.920 | I've heard that, not a lot of people,

03:16:58.240 | but some are starting to pay attention to this idea

03:17:00.860 | of taking things like berberine or even metformin

03:17:03.620 | can scavenge glucose.

03:17:06.220 | I personally can't take berberine.

03:17:08.160 | If I take it, I get massive headaches

03:17:09.700 | unless I've ingested tons of sugar and carbohydrates.

03:17:12.460 | So I just don't mess around with it.

03:17:14.180 | But I know there are a number of people out there

03:17:16.180 | that want to know whether or not

03:17:18.100 | these glucose scavengers can be useful.

03:17:20.940 | - I think that is really majoring in the minors.

03:17:22.780 | If I'm being honest, as far as like the carb blockers,

03:17:25.420 | there's like some white kidney bean extract

03:17:27.500 | and those sorts of things.

03:17:28.980 | They do block the digestion of carbohydrates, some.

03:17:33.740 | So when I say block, those watching or listening,

03:17:38.740 | metabolism is typically not on and off switches.

03:17:42.160 | Okay, so when we say things like block or attenuate

03:17:45.340 | or inhibit, typically we're not talking about

03:17:49.380 | just a switch on the wall that you press it

03:17:51.100 | and everything turns off.

03:17:52.140 | We're talking about a dimmer switch, okay?

03:17:54.380 | Like so you, it just changes the emphasis.

03:17:56.880 | But these carb blockers can reduce

03:18:00.420 | the absorption of carbohydrate.

03:18:01.840 | Now, they don't seem to cause weight loss

03:18:05.740 | when you just do it a normal diet.

03:18:07.500 | Now, why is that?

03:18:08.660 | Well, all it does is once those carbohydrates

03:18:12.420 | get to the large intestine and your bacteria

03:18:15.580 | get ahold of them, they start fermenting them

03:18:17.580 | to volatile fatty acids which get reabsorbed into your liver

03:18:20.380 | so you don't get the increase in blood glucose

03:18:22.060 | but you still get almost all the calories from it

03:18:24.220 | because it's just in a different form.

03:18:26.140 | So if carb blockers, if they actually worked really well,

03:18:30.620 | I mean, if you block something from being absorbed,

03:18:33.840 | your GI typically does not just let undigested materials

03:18:37.100 | sit in there, you get diarrhea.

03:18:39.300 | I mean, that would be the outcome.

03:18:41.380 | That's also how I like debunk the whole like 30 grams

03:18:43.980 | of protein at a meal, you can't absorb any more than that.

03:18:46.860 | I'm like, if that was the case, like when you ate a steak,

03:18:49.660 | like you would just start having diarrhea every time

03:18:52.620 | you went over that 30 gram threshold, right?

03:18:54.700 | - I remember during college, so this would be early '90s,

03:18:57.260 | there was the cholesterol craze,

03:18:59.140 | this idea of putting in non-digestible thing

03:19:03.640 | into things like potato chips so that it would clear through

03:19:07.700 | the GI tract faster, not absorb as many calories.

03:19:11.620 | It does raise, this went nowhere, obviously.

03:19:14.820 | You don't hear about this anymore

03:19:15.940 | but it does raise an interesting question

03:19:17.500 | related to energy balance, which is gastric emptying time.

03:19:21.380 | And obviously in the landscape of eating disorders

03:19:25.940 | in particular anorexia, use and abuse of laxatives

03:19:30.940 | is a way in which people will, in an unhealthy way,

03:19:34.060 | try and control their weight.

03:19:35.620 | And there's a lot of problems with that approach.

03:19:38.420 | But what about gastric emptying time?

03:19:41.220 | Is this one way that people could control

03:19:46.100 | their energy balance in a healthy way?

03:19:48.280 | And where does fiber come into play?

03:19:50.940 | - Fiber tends to improve GI transit time

03:19:54.260 | because it adds bulk.

03:19:55.140 | So your GI system is basically a tube

03:20:00.140 | and it has peristalsis, which is wave-like contractions

03:20:04.580 | that moves the food down through the tube.

03:20:06.500 | Well, if you have more bulk to the food, like with fiber,

03:20:08.660 | you can move it through a little bit better.

03:20:10.480 | Now in the gastric, the stomach specifically,

03:20:14.420 | fiber tends to delay gastric emptying and slow it a bit,

03:20:19.380 | probably 'cause it congeals a little bit.

03:20:21.380 | Now, this kind of gets into the glycemic index argument.

03:20:27.380 | Like if you do low GI foods,

03:20:29.940 | you'll have a slower release of glucose.

03:20:33.480 | It's a slower gastric emptying time.

03:20:36.080 | Does that affect energy balance?

03:20:38.180 | And so there are quite a few studies looking at low GI

03:20:40.820 | versus high GI foods.

03:20:43.260 | In the studies where they don't control calories,

03:20:45.020 | low GI tends to outperform high GI,

03:20:47.700 | but when they control calories, there's no difference.

03:20:50.580 | And so what I think that suggests is low GI foods

03:20:54.900 | just by their nature tend to be higher in fiber.

03:20:57.300 | And so I think it just kind of comes back to the fiber issue.

03:20:59.980 | - Got it.

03:21:01.180 | I'd like to ask you about supplements for a moment.

03:21:03.860 | It's an enormous landscape,

03:21:05.280 | but I believe there are a few things that you believe in,

03:21:09.100 | meaning they exist and there are decent data

03:21:12.100 | to support their use, maybe even some anecdotal data

03:21:15.460 | based on your own experience.

03:21:16.820 | As long as we highlight it as such, it could be interesting.

03:21:19.640 | I've heard you talk about two in particular,

03:21:21.700 | one that I'm very familiar with,

03:21:23.340 | which is creatine monohydrate.

03:21:25.080 | If you'd share your thoughts on that,

03:21:27.500 | not just for muscle building,

03:21:28.780 | but maybe any other purposes for it.

03:21:31.300 | And then the other one is one that, frankly,

03:21:33.220 | I'm learning more about all the time now

03:21:34.780 | thanks to your prompt, which is rhodolia rosea.

03:21:38.580 | I think I pronounced that correctly.

03:21:40.220 | And why that might be interesting or of use to people.

03:21:45.220 | - Yeah, so touching on creatine,

03:21:48.980 | it is the most tested, safe,

03:21:52.780 | and effective support supplement we have.

03:21:54.680 | I mean, it's just, there are thousands of studies

03:21:57.180 | on creatine monohydrate now.

03:21:59.080 | And I would say very clearly too,

03:22:01.440 | if you're using any other form of creatine,

03:22:04.140 | I think you're wasting your money.

03:22:06.180 | Creatine hydrochloride has some hype around it.

03:22:10.460 | Apparently, it's a little more soluble.

03:22:12.580 | The claim is that you need less,

03:22:14.980 | but there's only a couple studies on it,

03:22:16.700 | and it's more expensive.

03:22:18.380 | - And creatine monohydrate is not particularly expensive.

03:22:21.220 | I realize people have different budgets,

03:22:22.540 | but it doesn't land in the, it's not a budget breaker.

03:22:25.700 | - Yeah, it's gotten more expensive

03:22:27.180 | because of COVID and supply chain issues.

03:22:29.560 | Even there's forms of creatine that appear to be as good,

03:22:32.520 | like hydrochloride, but it's more expensive.

03:22:36.100 | And then things like creatine ethyl ester

03:22:38.220 | has been shown to be worse than creatine monohydrate.

03:22:41.260 | Buffered creatine is as good or worse,

03:22:44.700 | and it's much more expensive.

03:22:47.020 | So I tell people, just take creatine monohydrate.

03:22:49.660 | It is tried and true.

03:22:50.780 | It's been shown to saturate the muscle cells 100%

03:22:53.820 | with phosphocreatine, and that's what you want.

03:22:56.580 | So creatine works through a few different methodologies.

03:22:59.500 | One, through increasing phosphocreatine content,

03:23:01.980 | which helps improve exercise performance.

03:23:04.660 | It also appears to improve recovery,

03:23:09.540 | and it increases lean mass,

03:23:13.120 | a lot of which is through bringing water

03:23:16.180 | into the muscle cells.

03:23:17.700 | But that is, I mean, muscle cells are mostly water.

03:23:20.820 | So when people say, "Well, it's just water,"

03:23:22.980 | that's what muscle cells mostly are.

03:23:25.000 | And it also increases strength and some other metrics.

03:23:30.460 | Now, it also has been shown in studies

03:23:33.440 | that people tend to get a decrease in body fat percentage.

03:23:36.380 | Now, that's probably

03:23:37.220 | because they're getting an increase in lean mass,

03:23:38.860 | and so the relative is a decrease in body fat percentage.

03:23:42.040 | But there are a few studies

03:23:42.940 | that show a decrease in fat mass as well.

03:23:45.100 | I don't think that creatine's a fat burner.

03:23:46.600 | I think that people are able to train harder,

03:23:48.640 | build more lean tissue,

03:23:49.740 | and so that's probably having an effect on fat mass.

03:23:53.040 | Then they've actually shown more recently

03:23:54.420 | some cognitive benefits to creatine,

03:23:56.120 | which I find really interesting as well.

03:23:58.620 | But the only knock on creatine

03:24:00.240 | that anybody's been able to come up with,

03:24:01.460 | 'cause they've debunked the kidney stuff,

03:24:03.460 | they've debunked the liver stuff,

03:24:05.220 | there's no evidence that it harms healthy kidney or liver,

03:24:09.080 | is hair loss.

03:24:10.540 | So what about hair loss?

03:24:11.840 | 'Cause there was one study in 2009

03:24:14.020 | that showed that creatine increased DHT.

03:24:16.360 | But they didn't really show an effect

03:24:20.060 | on any other sex hormone.

03:24:22.140 | So it's kind of strange.

03:24:23.780 | Like, you would think if there was an increase in DHT,

03:24:25.740 | there would be something else that changes as well.

03:24:30.320 | And it's only one study,

03:24:31.680 | and again, didn't directly measure hair loss,

03:24:34.360 | measured DHT, which we know is involved

03:24:37.020 | in the loss of the follicle.

03:24:39.400 | So what I would say is that I am not convinced.

03:24:42.980 | It's only one study, never been replicated to my knowledge,

03:24:45.880 | and it was looking at a mechanism rather than an outcome.

03:24:48.320 | So if you're somebody who's prone to hair loss

03:24:51.620 | and you wanna avoid creatine because of that, I understand.

03:24:54.780 | But for most people,

03:24:55.620 | I don't think it's something to worry about.

03:24:58.020 | - Do you emphasize the classic loading of creatine,

03:25:01.540 | taking it a bunch of times per day and then backing off,

03:25:04.000 | or just taking it consistently at the,

03:25:06.100 | I think five grams per day is kind of the typical dose

03:25:09.740 | that people take?

03:25:10.680 | - So again, no solutions, only trade-offs.

03:25:14.060 | You can load it and you will saturate

03:25:15.840 | your phosphocreatine stores faster,

03:25:19.340 | like usually within a week.

03:25:21.260 | If you just take five grams per day,

03:25:22.740 | it'll take two, three, four weeks,

03:25:25.380 | but you will get to the same place.

03:25:27.820 | And you're probably gonna have a much lower risk

03:25:30.900 | of GI issues.

03:25:32.780 | Some people, creatine can be a gut irritant.

03:25:36.400 | If it is for some folks,

03:25:37.760 | I would recommend splitting it into multiple doses.

03:25:40.020 | So maybe like multiple two, one or two gram doses per day.

03:25:43.280 | And definitely don't load it

03:25:45.900 | if you're somebody who has GI issues from it.

03:25:48.100 | As far as rhodiola rosea,

03:25:52.280 | the research is still in its infancy.

03:25:53.820 | I was just reading a new systematic review

03:25:55.980 | that kind of concluded that we need more high quality

03:25:58.260 | research, but the research that is out there

03:26:01.560 | seems to suggest that not only does it reduce

03:26:04.420 | physical fatigue, but it also reduces the perception

03:26:08.160 | of fatigue and may also enhance memory and cognition

03:26:13.100 | as well.

03:26:14.020 | And it's referred to as an adaptogen.

03:26:16.460 | So I really like it.

03:26:18.740 | My anecdotal experience is when I combine that with caffeine,

03:26:23.260 | it tends to kind of smooth out the effects of caffeine.

03:26:26.720 | It's a more pleasant experience.

03:26:29.100 | And there's also some evidence that if you're coming

03:26:32.100 | off caffeine, that it can reduce the negative side effects

03:26:37.100 | to caffeine withdrawal.

03:26:38.500 | Which by the way, I didn't really believe in that

03:26:40.500 | until I actually did a cold turkey.

03:26:43.260 | So before I meet, I will cut out caffeine for seven days

03:26:46.020 | because you can basically reset your caffeine tolerance

03:26:48.620 | in seven days.

03:26:49.980 | And like two days in, I mean, I'm groggy.

03:26:52.660 | I've got the headaches.

03:26:54.180 | Usually I'll get like body aches that come up

03:26:56.220 | because caffeine is actually a mild analgesic.

03:26:58.700 | And yeah, so it was very interesting to see.

03:27:02.180 | But I slept like a baby.

03:27:03.320 | I'll tell you that.

03:27:04.160 | - And then you took caffeine prior to your event.

03:27:06.900 | - To the meat, yeah.

03:27:07.720 | - So you really want the maximum punch from it.

03:27:09.580 | That's why you do that.

03:27:10.460 | - Yeah, and like I said, rhodiola tends to,

03:27:14.220 | it doesn't eliminate those negative effects,

03:27:16.480 | but it tends to dampen them a little bit.

03:27:18.480 | So I really like it.

03:27:19.960 | Again, would like to see more research on it.

03:27:22.380 | But there's a lot more stuff coming out.

03:27:24.060 | Like ashwagandha is another thing

03:27:25.820 | that looks pretty promising.

03:27:27.240 | Seems to increase testosterone modestly.

03:27:30.380 | - Interesting.

03:27:31.500 | - I don't think it's like,

03:27:32.620 | they've shown increases in lean mass.

03:27:34.340 | I don't think the increase in testosterone

03:27:37.480 | explains the increase in lean mass.

03:27:39.160 | It's just not a big enough increase.

03:27:40.740 | - Could it be the decrease in cortisol?

03:27:42.380 | People have talked about-

03:27:43.220 | - It's possible.

03:27:44.060 | It does decrease stress, stress hormones.

03:27:46.740 | It also has been shown to help with sleep.

03:27:50.700 | But I would like to see more research looking at

03:27:52.420 | mechanistically how it's increasing lean mass

03:27:54.420 | before I kind of say conclusively

03:27:57.000 | that this is the next creatinine.

03:27:58.940 | There's more research that needs to come out.

03:28:00.360 | And then there's some other things that have an effect.

03:28:03.100 | Citrulline malate, there was a new meta-analysis

03:28:06.960 | that showed that citrulline malate can reduce fatigue

03:28:10.440 | and increase, I think, time to fatigue.

03:28:13.100 | And it may actually have

03:28:14.620 | some small recovery benefits as well.

03:28:18.140 | Different forms of carnitine can actually have recovery

03:28:20.660 | benefits and actually interesting,

03:28:22.500 | I think it's carnitine tartrate actually has been shown,

03:28:25.900 | Volokh published a study that actually showed

03:28:27.580 | that increased androgen receptor density in muscle cells.

03:28:30.100 | - That's interesting.

03:28:31.180 | L-carnitine and its other forms are pretty,

03:28:34.220 | I think there's good evidence that they can improve

03:28:36.540 | sperm and egg health for people who are looking to conceive.

03:28:38.860 | - Interesting.

03:28:39.700 | - Yeah, there are surprising number of studies on this

03:28:42.660 | in humans, but yeah, androgen receptor density,

03:28:47.300 | and that's from oral L-carnitine.

03:28:49.440 | People are taking capsules,

03:28:50.300 | not injecting directly into muscle.

03:28:52.660 | - And then you've got things like, obviously,

03:28:54.340 | like the other most effective supplement out there

03:28:57.420 | is probably caffeine.

03:28:58.660 | I mean, like if you look at the research studies,

03:29:00.460 | caffeine produces very consistently

03:29:02.500 | improvements in performance.

03:29:04.700 | So that's another one.

03:29:05.540 | Some people don't like the effect of caffeine.

03:29:06.900 | That's okay, but-

03:29:07.820 | - I wouldn't know 'cause I'd never come off it.

03:29:09.780 | - Yeah, exactly, exactly.

03:29:11.780 | Well, interestingly, they do show that the effect appears

03:29:14.900 | to be consistent, that even if you're a habitual caffeine

03:29:19.140 | user, you do still get a benefit every time you take it.

03:29:22.780 | Like you said, you're just used to it.

03:29:24.460 | So there's those things.

03:29:28.100 | Then you've got things like beta-alanine,

03:29:30.620 | which it's in our pre-workout.

03:29:35.140 | Probably not super helpful for most people

03:29:39.780 | for resistance training.

03:29:41.000 | It does seem to have some benefits for like high intensity.

03:29:45.620 | Like if you get out more than like 45 seconds

03:29:48.140 | or 60 seconds of like really hard training,

03:29:50.620 | it does appear to help with delaying fatigue for that.

03:29:53.860 | And then you've got things like betaine,

03:29:58.220 | or also called trimethylglycine,

03:30:00.280 | which there's some evidence it can improve lean mass.

03:30:03.940 | There's some evidence that it can improve power output.

03:30:08.940 | So there's a few things out there,

03:30:10.480 | but most of the stuff is not very good.

03:30:13.340 | So I think that those kinds of supplements, very useful.

03:30:18.340 | But again, I will never tell people they need supplements.

03:30:22.340 | Again, even something like creatine is gonna be

03:30:25.600 | a very small effect compared to like proper nutrition,

03:30:29.780 | recovery, and hard training.

03:30:32.820 | One of the things I was talking with Ben Bruno the other day

03:30:36.820 | and I said, some people will ask me like,

03:30:39.980 | "How does this person make progress

03:30:41.700 | "because their programming is not evidence-based?"

03:30:44.600 | Or, "This guy, his exercises are dumb."

03:30:47.960 | And I'll say, "Yeah, but they train really hard

03:30:50.480 | "for 20 years."

03:30:51.840 | Like one commonality you see between really successful

03:30:55.360 | athletes or bodybuilders is they train really hard.

03:30:59.320 | And one of the things I have observed is

03:31:01.820 | the more into the weeds people tend to get,

03:31:04.120 | and again, this is just my own anecdote and observation,

03:31:06.920 | the more in the weeds they tend to get,

03:31:08.600 | the less hard I see them train.

03:31:11.040 | And so one of the things I really liked

03:31:13.360 | that Mike Israel said, who's got a PhD

03:31:16.680 | and is a bodybuilder himself,

03:31:19.220 | he said, "You can't out-science hard training.

03:31:23.260 | "That if you're looking to build muscle

03:31:24.860 | "and you're looking to improve your body composition,

03:31:26.540 | "the main thing is just doing the work over time."

03:31:29.440 | - Consistency and the hard work.

03:31:30.720 | And I would add to that, and this is true,

03:31:33.300 | academic endeavors too, of course, I hope you'll agree.

03:31:37.720 | - Absolutely.

03:31:38.720 | - Which is that, yeah, you know,

03:31:41.000 | the other thing is given the mental side,

03:31:42.560 | earlier we were talking about how satiety signals

03:31:45.300 | in the brain and what you think about foods can be relevant,

03:31:47.800 | learning to really enjoy training hard

03:31:51.320 | in addition to learning to really enjoy eating well,

03:31:54.120 | not just for the effects that it has on body composition,

03:31:56.860 | composition, excuse me, those two, of course,

03:31:59.720 | but just learning to really enjoy the process

03:32:02.340 | of training hard and a really hard workout

03:32:05.400 | or a really hard paper that you have to sort through

03:32:08.240 | or really digging through a book that's challenging,

03:32:11.160 | learning to really enjoy that I think is,

03:32:13.620 | if there is a power tool out there,

03:32:15.080 | it's the psychological end.

03:32:16.540 | - And I think a lot of that is getting the confidence

03:32:20.360 | of doing something hard that there's a payoff at the end.

03:32:23.960 | You know, and a lot of people, I get asked a lot in my Q&As,

03:32:27.320 | "How do I get more confident?

03:32:28.500 | "How do I become more confident?"

03:32:30.320 | And I'll tell people, "You have to do.

03:32:32.600 | "There's no hack, you can't read about it.

03:32:34.180 | "You gotta get in the arena."

03:32:35.200 | And I don't mean like compete in sports necessarily,

03:32:38.400 | but like doing a PhD or doing something,

03:32:41.640 | just something hard where you're putting yourself out there

03:32:44.200 | and you're saying, "This is my goal

03:32:45.400 | "and I'm gonna go for it."

03:32:47.360 | You just learn so much by doing that about yourself.

03:32:50.860 | And so just what you said,

03:32:53.740 | I will reframe things in my mind when bad things happen

03:32:58.320 | from, it's not to say I never get stressed out,

03:33:00.320 | 'cause I do, and it's not to say that I never get down,

03:33:03.120 | 'cause I do, 'cause I'm a human,

03:33:04.900 | but when something bad happens,

03:33:06.400 | I should post about this in my story today,

03:33:07.840 | when something bad happens,

03:33:09.340 | very rarely anymore do I go, "Woe is me,

03:33:12.720 | "why did this happen to me?"

03:33:13.720 | Because you're in the universe,

03:33:16.360 | random bad things are gonna happen.

03:33:18.320 | So instead I say, you know, if I'm not dead,

03:33:23.900 | instead I say, "Well, what an exciting opportunity

03:33:27.360 | "to overcome an obstacle."

03:33:29.520 | And I bet, because in the experience of my life,

03:33:33.400 | the biggest lessons and the best things in my life

03:33:36.340 | have actually come out of the most challenging,

03:33:38.700 | worst things that have happened.

03:33:40.900 | And so again, I would never have been able

03:33:44.260 | to do these sorts of things

03:33:46.300 | if I hadn't taken up weightlifting,

03:33:47.940 | because weightlifting taught me so much about perseverance,

03:33:51.840 | delayed gratification, overcoming obstacles,

03:33:55.200 | and that's why I love it even to this day.

03:33:58.340 | And I'll still get butterflies

03:33:59.440 | when I go in for a squat session,

03:34:01.120 | even though I've been doing it for 23 years.

03:34:03.060 | - That's wonderful.

03:34:04.060 | Well, it's clear that you embrace hard things,

03:34:06.060 | and for people listening to this,

03:34:07.780 | obviously it doesn't have to be weightlifting, you know,

03:34:09.540 | picking hard things, learning an instrument,

03:34:11.740 | learning a language, challenge is an absolute builder.

03:34:16.740 | - And they've actually shown like those sorts of things,

03:34:20.000 | like when you challenge yourself and also mentally,

03:34:22.020 | that I think there was a new study that came out

03:34:24.420 | basically showing a reduction in the risk of Alzheimer's

03:34:26.740 | and other age-related cognitive decline.

03:34:29.040 | I mean, basically like use it or lose it, right?

03:34:32.160 | - Yeah, the will, the desire and the will to persevere

03:34:37.160 | no doubt translates to this thing

03:34:40.820 | we call the will to live, right?

03:34:42.860 | It's related to the will to live.

03:34:44.900 | Well, I think that what you just said, you know,

03:34:48.900 | beautifully embodies what most people are aspiring to,

03:34:51.700 | which is to, I think most people

03:34:53.340 | actually want to do hard things.

03:34:55.540 | They don't just want to have the results.

03:34:58.380 | I think that most people deep down have some understanding

03:35:01.660 | that their reward system works that way.

03:35:03.740 | I must say this conversation for me

03:35:05.480 | has been tremendously rewarding.

03:35:06.860 | First of all, it allowed me to meet you in person

03:35:08.700 | for the first time, which I've really enjoyed.

03:35:11.260 | I'm certain this won't be our last interaction

03:35:13.960 | on this podcast and elsewhere.

03:35:16.680 | Also the amount of knowledge that you contain inside you

03:35:20.400 | is astonishing and-

03:35:22.320 | - There's a lot of stuff rattling around up there.

03:35:23.680 | - Well, and we all benefit because your ability

03:35:26.300 | to pull from the mechanistic side,

03:35:27.860 | again, I think not limited to,

03:35:30.380 | but related to your background in biochemistry,

03:35:32.560 | all the way through to the impact in humans,

03:35:36.340 | animal studies, being able to understand

03:35:37.900 | where those sit relative to one another.

03:35:39.560 | And then you're obviously a practitioner of,

03:35:42.100 | you practice what you preach and what you talk about

03:35:45.780 | pertains to men, to women, younger people, older people,

03:35:49.840 | people who are vegan, keto, carnivore,

03:35:53.220 | you really are able to net a tremendous number of ideas

03:35:55.900 | while staying really nuanced and data-driven.

03:35:58.640 | And so I just want to say for myself

03:36:01.780 | and on behalf of the listeners,

03:36:03.160 | really appreciate you coming in here today

03:36:05.160 | and sharing with us your knowledge.

03:36:06.980 | We will absolutely point people in the direction

03:36:09.660 | of where they can learn more about you.

03:36:12.060 | And one of the places that I definitely want to mention

03:36:15.820 | before we part, however, is this Carbon app.

03:36:20.220 | And I should just mention,

03:36:21.460 | this isn't a paid promotion or anything of that sort.

03:36:23.340 | Actually, one of our podcast team members

03:36:25.440 | has been using Carbon for a long time.

03:36:27.440 | This is an app that you devised,

03:36:29.080 | which allows people to navigate the exercise,

03:36:31.540 | nutrition, energy balance space for weight loss,

03:36:34.020 | muscle gain, fat loss, weight maintenance.

03:36:36.880 | I would just like to briefly ask you about that

03:36:38.920 | before we conclude.

03:36:40.120 | Without necessarily telling us everything

03:36:43.500 | that's in the Carbon app, I'd love to know

03:36:45.220 | what are the major things that it does and is good for?

03:36:47.700 | And then what were some of the key things

03:36:50.320 | that you wanted to make sure were in there

03:36:52.360 | when you built it?

03:36:53.380 | Like what's the sort of logical backbone behind it?

03:36:55.700 | 'Cause I think there are a lot of food counting,

03:36:58.080 | calorie counting, exercise apps out there.

03:37:01.120 | Everyone I've talked to that uses Carbon,

03:37:03.920 | including our mutual friend, Cigar and Getty,

03:37:06.480 | this member of my podcast, et cetera, raves about it.

03:37:09.380 | So what is Carbon and what does it do?

03:37:13.100 | And what was your mindset in building it?

03:37:15.240 | What did you really want to see there

03:37:17.840 | that you didn't see elsewhere?

03:37:20.100 | - So those listening may not know,

03:37:21.380 | but I really, I started online coaching people

03:37:24.020 | for nutrition back in 2005.

03:37:26.500 | And that was the vast majority of my business

03:37:29.780 | all the way up until like 2017.

03:37:32.640 | And I had a lot of success with that,

03:37:34.580 | whether it be just average folks looking to lose weight

03:37:38.280 | or build muscle and right up to elite level competitors

03:37:42.060 | in physique sport.

03:37:43.000 | So I kind of had this idea like,

03:37:48.620 | I don't want to say I had the idea,

03:37:50.080 | a few people had the idea.

03:37:52.140 | What if we could take what I do in coaching

03:37:56.580 | and try to automate as much of that as possible?

03:37:59.460 | 'Cause by the time I was becoming a really popular coach,

03:38:02.660 | I mean, I was expensive.

03:38:04.140 | You were looking at like me charging,

03:38:06.360 | I got to the point where I was charging

03:38:07.340 | about $1,000 a month for coaching, right?

03:38:09.340 | And most people cannot afford that.

03:38:12.580 | And I would like to not just coach rich people,

03:38:16.300 | you know what I mean?

03:38:17.380 | I would like to be able to help other people.

03:38:20.420 | So the idea was to create an app

03:38:22.960 | that could do some of this stuff.

03:38:24.220 | Now there's always a place for human interaction,

03:38:27.440 | but for people who can't afford that,

03:38:29.540 | our app is basically 10 bucks a month.

03:38:31.740 | And basically what we wanted to do was set up an app where,

03:38:36.480 | think about if you went to an nutrition coach,

03:38:41.260 | what would they do?

03:38:42.680 | They would probably ask you some questions about your goals,

03:38:45.900 | take some anthropometrics,

03:38:48.140 | and then they would use like that maybe dietary preference.

03:38:51.540 | And they'd use that information

03:38:52.700 | to kind of formulate a baseline plan.

03:38:55.180 | That's what Carbon does.

03:38:57.260 | So we ask you, I think there's eight questions

03:38:59.100 | in the signup flow about like your activity, your exercise,

03:39:04.060 | your lifestyle, your body weight, your body fat percentage.

03:39:08.020 | And if you don't know it, we help you calculate it.

03:39:10.180 | It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

03:39:13.100 | And then your dietary preferences.

03:39:14.740 | And we use that to come up with kind of your baseline

03:39:17.900 | and your baseline will be your calories, your protein,

03:39:20.340 | your carbohydrates and fats.

03:39:22.220 | And what's different about our app,

03:39:24.500 | 'cause apps like MyFitnessPal or whatever

03:39:27.140 | will do that as well.

03:39:28.700 | What's different about ours is we encourage people

03:39:32.140 | to log their weight daily for the reasons

03:39:34.060 | that we talked about earlier.

03:39:35.660 | And then you can also track your food in the app.

03:39:38.100 | And honestly, I think our food tracker

03:39:39.820 | is actually way easier to use than most of them out there.

03:39:43.060 | What we typically get great rave reviews about

03:39:46.420 | is how user-friendly our interface is,

03:39:49.100 | that it makes intuitive sense.

03:39:50.720 | And so you track your food, try to hit these macros

03:39:55.700 | that you're prescribed and each week you will be prompted

03:40:00.700 | to check in with the coach on your check-in day.

03:40:03.500 | And then you put in some information

03:40:06.020 | and then based on how you're progressing,

03:40:08.380 | the app will adjust or not adjust

03:40:12.460 | based on how you're progressing.

03:40:13.780 | So for example, if you're hitting a weight loss plateau,

03:40:16.980 | it will sense that and it will reduce your calories

03:40:20.300 | or if you're trying to gain weight

03:40:22.340 | and you hit a plateau, it'll increase your calories.

03:40:25.460 | And there's a lot of backend algorithm stuff

03:40:28.260 | that takes care of this, but the fundamental crux

03:40:30.300 | of the app is we try to determine

03:40:33.100 | your total daily energy expenditure,

03:40:34.660 | because that's gonna tell us the first big thing

03:40:36.660 | we need to know, which is how many calories

03:40:39.340 | do you need to be eating for your goal, right?

03:40:41.880 | So on the front end, we basically do our best guess

03:40:46.880 | based on your anthropometrics.

03:40:50.700 | Not gonna be perfect, but it'll get us in the ballpark.

03:40:53.340 | And if you do know, like some people already know,

03:40:55.780 | well, I know what I maintain my body weight on.

03:40:57.720 | There's actually a spot where you can manually enter that

03:40:59.920 | during the signup flow.

03:41:01.020 | So that's helpful for people who are super nerds like me.

03:41:03.820 | But then if you're just, people will ask,

03:41:07.860 | well, do you take Apple Watch data?

03:41:10.100 | Do you take this, do you take that?

03:41:11.280 | And know, for the reasons we talked about,

03:41:13.100 | that it overestimates energy expenditure.

03:41:15.060 | What our app does is it's an algebra equation.

03:41:19.180 | If you, because your body weight,

03:41:21.860 | your maintenance calories,

03:41:23.820 | is your total daily energy expenditure.

03:41:25.620 | Your average calories that you eat

03:41:27.660 | to maintain your body weight will be the same

03:41:29.780 | as your total daily energy expenditure.

03:41:32.400 | So if we know how body weight is changing,

03:41:36.120 | and we know how many calories the person's consuming,

03:41:39.820 | we can actually solve for what energy expenditure is, right?

03:41:42.880 | And you can see in the app that we'll,

03:41:45.140 | there's a kind of a maintenance calorie tracker

03:41:47.260 | or energy expenditure tracker.

03:41:48.940 | And typically after about three to four weeks,

03:41:52.020 | even if the app was off at first,

03:41:54.420 | it will have you pretty darn close.

03:41:56.600 | Because like, let's say somebody comes on

03:42:00.380 | and their goal is to lose a pound and a half a week

03:42:04.020 | or something like that.

03:42:05.340 | And the first week they lose three pounds.

03:42:08.500 | Now, the app actually accounts for the fact

03:42:10.780 | that you can lose more water weight the first week,

03:42:12.540 | so they probably wouldn't get an adjustment.

03:42:14.660 | But let's say the next week they lose three pounds.

03:42:17.260 | The app will sense that and adjust their calories up

03:42:21.540 | because it will be estimating

03:42:23.060 | that their energy expenditures are actually higher

03:42:26.540 | than what it had previously estimated

03:42:28.160 | based on the amount of weight they're losing.

03:42:30.100 | And the same thing goes in reverse.

03:42:31.340 | If they're not losing the amount of weight

03:42:32.700 | that they're supposed to,

03:42:34.240 | it will lower them based on the fact

03:42:36.400 | that it may have overestimated their energy expenditure.

03:42:39.320 | But that's the first crux of it

03:42:42.560 | is tracking that energy expenditure.

03:42:44.840 | And then the next thing is protein.

03:42:48.240 | So when the backend algorithm stuff is happening,

03:42:52.120 | calories are set first based on your energy expenditure

03:42:54.840 | and your goal.

03:42:55.660 | So for example, if you're on an aggressive diet,

03:42:58.660 | your calories are gonna be lower

03:43:01.320 | even if your energy expenditure might be a little bit high.

03:43:04.780 | Just because if you're trying to lose two pounds a week,

03:43:06.460 | I mean, you're gonna be

03:43:07.300 | in a pretty aggressive calorie deficit.

03:43:09.700 | So it's gonna set the calories first.

03:43:11.520 | Then it will set protein based on your lean body mass.

03:43:14.220 | Then the calories that are left over

03:43:17.780 | will be allotted to carbohydrate and fat

03:43:19.700 | depending on your dietary preference.

03:43:21.340 | And we have a few different dietary preferences.

03:43:23.060 | There's balanced, which is about 50/50

03:43:27.820 | to 60/40 carbohydrate to fat of the remaining calories.

03:43:31.480 | Then you have low fat,

03:43:33.100 | which is obviously a higher ratio of carbohydrate.

03:43:36.040 | You have low carb.

03:43:38.000 | You have a ketogenic diet, which is very, very low carb.

03:43:40.800 | And then there's also a plant-based option.

03:43:43.480 | And within each of those options,

03:43:46.100 | still you can go in and actually shimmy the macros

03:43:48.960 | a little bit within a certain range

03:43:50.980 | so that you can kind of dial in

03:43:53.040 | what your specific dietary preference is.

03:43:54.960 | Because again, if we go back

03:43:56.180 | to what is gonna produce the best long-term results,

03:44:00.040 | it's whatever the person can adhere to.

03:44:02.340 | So we really try to start with the concept of adherence

03:44:06.740 | by allowing people to have the dietary preference

03:44:09.400 | that they want.

03:44:10.860 | And there's some other apps out there that are good apps.

03:44:13.540 | For example, we get asked a lot,

03:44:14.620 | what's the Darren Trenar app

03:44:15.640 | and the Renaissance Periodization app.

03:44:17.720 | And they have a great app.

03:44:19.620 | But theirs is kind of more rigid.

03:44:21.020 | And it'll say, you're gonna eat this many meals

03:44:23.060 | and you're gonna have these foods at these times.

03:44:25.540 | So we're kind of the opposite.

03:44:26.660 | We wanna give you maximum flexibility.

03:44:28.660 | Now, for some people,

03:44:29.500 | they would prefer the rigid structure at first.

03:44:32.820 | But we find that for most people,

03:44:34.940 | giving them more flexibility

03:44:37.140 | typically improves adherence over the long run.

03:44:40.040 | So that's kind of how the app works.

03:44:41.980 | And again, like there's multiple different goals.

03:44:44.180 | It's not just a weight loss app.

03:44:45.700 | There's a maintenance, there's a muscle building.

03:44:49.200 | So you've got all kinds of different goals

03:44:51.160 | that can be accommodated,

03:44:52.620 | different rates of each of those goals.

03:44:54.820 | And I mean, I've used the app for over three years now

03:44:59.500 | to do my body weight.

03:45:00.780 | And I mean, like when I say that it's dialed me in,

03:45:03.880 | because I'm very regimented with, you know,

03:45:06.240 | logging and logging my weight.

03:45:09.380 | So what I targeted to weigh in at Worlds,

03:45:12.840 | I got down to the 0.1 kilogram.

03:45:17.060 | So it's pretty cool to be able to like use a tool

03:45:21.300 | that I helped develop to actually coach me.

03:45:24.580 | So it's a great tool.

03:45:26.780 | You know, we did some statistics.

03:45:28.620 | We polled 2,500 members.

03:45:30.740 | And one of the questions we asked is,

03:45:32.900 | "Would you recommend this to a friend?"

03:45:34.740 | And 91% said yes.

03:45:36.860 | So we, on our average,

03:45:38.640 | I think our average retention is like seven months,

03:45:40.860 | which for an app that costs $10 a month is really great.

03:45:43.420 | So. - That's great.

03:45:44.340 | Yeah, as I mentioned, a number of people I know use it.

03:45:46.900 | This is not a paid promotion.

03:45:48.460 | But I think people need guidance and tools.

03:45:52.100 | And what we know about the human brain

03:45:53.940 | is that winging it can work,

03:45:56.020 | but that the brain will cheat itself often.

03:45:59.800 | There's a Feynman quote about this and I'll get it wrong.

03:46:01.880 | And it's always bad to try and quote Feynman anyway,

03:46:04.800 | 'cause he said it so much better,

03:46:06.140 | but that we are the easiest.

03:46:08.380 | You know, it's easy to fool ourselves, basically,

03:46:10.380 | is what he was saying.

03:46:11.220 | Easiest to fool ourselves. - Absolutely.

03:46:13.220 | - Sounds great.

03:46:14.060 | We will put a link to it so that people can check it out.

03:46:17.300 | Again, it sounds like a wonderful tool.

03:46:20.300 | And a tool that nets a lot of the principles

03:46:23.380 | that sit as major themes for weight loss, weight gain,

03:46:28.380 | I would assume directed lean muscle,

03:46:32.600 | lean tissue gain is what most people are after,

03:46:34.740 | and weight maintenance because a number of people

03:46:36.300 | would like to just maintain.

03:46:38.580 | Listen, I really appreciate your time

03:46:40.660 | and all that you're doing.

03:46:42.700 | Certainly your time and energy and knowledge today,

03:46:45.500 | but also what you're doing

03:46:46.820 | on the various social media channels.

03:46:48.820 | And just the fact that somebody from the depths of academia

03:46:53.780 | is out there sharing so much knowledge

03:46:55.660 | across so many domains.

03:46:57.660 | You're a gem in this landscape of nutrition

03:47:01.340 | and one that people really need to hear from.

03:47:04.780 | So thank you so much for your time.

03:47:07.100 | - Thank you, I appreciate the opportunity.

03:47:08.820 | I really enjoyed it.

03:47:10.380 | - We'll do it again.

03:47:11.420 | Thank you for joining me today

03:47:12.500 | for my discussion with Dr. Lane Norton.

03:47:14.580 | I hope you found it to be as interesting and informative

03:47:17.440 | and actionable as I did.

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03:47:48.460 | During today's episode and on many previous episodes

03:47:50.740 | of the Huberman Lab Podcast, we discussed supplements.

03:47:53.560 | While supplements aren't necessary for everybody,

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03:48:55.740 | And at all of those sites,

03:48:57.380 | I provide science and science-related tools

03:48:59.700 | for mental health, physical health, and performance,

03:49:01.680 | some of which overlap with information

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03:49:05.420 | but often which is distinct from information

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03:49:09.260 | So again, that's Huberman Lab on Instagram,

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03:49:12.480 | Thank you once again for joining me

03:49:13.740 | for today's discussion with Dr. Lane Norton.

03:49:16.060 | If you are interested in some of the resources

03:49:17.980 | that he and I discussed, including his carbon app,

03:49:20.860 | as well as other resources that he provides,

03:49:23.160 | please go to the links in the show note captions.

03:49:25.940 | And last, but certainly not least,

03:49:28.000 | thank you for your interest in science.

03:49:29.920 | [upbeat music]

03:49:32.500 | (upbeat music)

Dr Layne Norton: The Science of Eating for Health, Fat Loss & Lean Muscle | Huberman Lab Podcast #97

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