Ep.13 - What is Discipleship? | Featuring Dhati Lewis

00:00:00.000 | But going through those hard times, going through those sufferings, going through, like, together, was just like, man, that bonded us so much together.

00:00:08.860 | And so we've got to stop arguing about the color of the carpet.

00:00:11.340 | We've got to stop arguing about CT or not.

00:00:14.620 | We've got to stop arguing about the stuff that we're spending all of our time staying away from making disciples, doing what God has called us to do.

00:00:27.300 | All right. Welcome to the official, unofficial Action Network podcast.

00:00:31.240 | That's the official, unofficial name of this podcast.

00:00:34.200 | My name is Stephen, and we are launching Lifelong Kingdom Workers from every college town.

00:00:37.660 | And today we are joined by Dahadi Lewis, the founding pastor of Blueprint Church and president of My Boulevard.

00:00:43.920 | Thank you so much for making time for us today on this podcast.

00:00:47.340 | Oh, I love it. Thank you for having me. It's exciting to be here.

00:00:49.940 | Yeah, it's been very humbling to hear from you, not only at our plenary at the X2 Winter Conference,

00:00:55.880 | but also at your workshop.

00:00:57.460 | And there's a lot that I want to talk about.

00:00:59.820 | Oh, I have a lot of questions I want to ask.

00:01:01.340 | But yeah, we want to talk mostly about discipleship, which I know is one of your passions.

00:01:07.100 | But before we get into all of that, I just want to give you a chance to introduce yourself,

00:01:10.280 | some of your spiritual background, how you became Christian, and whatever else you want to kind of touch on that.

00:01:15.340 | Yeah. So, I mean, basically, again, my name's Dahadi Lewis.

00:01:18.760 | I was son of a pro football player.

00:01:21.940 | Okay.

00:01:22.380 | I mean, if you had asked me what's my identity, I was like, I am an athlete.

00:01:25.480 | Yeah.

00:01:25.760 | And I, you know, pro football, I wanted to be like my dad, who played for the Saints, lived

00:01:30.960 | in Canada, all those things, grew up at Crenshaw, you know, high school, in L.A., all of those

00:01:36.440 | things.

00:01:36.620 | And I was just like, I want to be like my dad.

00:01:38.780 | I want to be a pro athlete.

00:01:39.640 | And so everything.

00:01:40.960 | What position did your dad play?

00:01:42.580 | My dad played safety.

00:01:43.620 | Oh, okay.

00:01:44.020 | I'm sorry.

00:01:44.340 | No, not safety.

00:01:45.160 | My dad played defensive end.

00:01:47.040 | Defensive end.

00:01:47.620 | Defensive end.

00:01:47.900 | Okay.

00:01:48.020 | You know, and so his claim to fame was he was the first person to intercept Dan Marino.

00:01:53.660 | Oh.

00:01:54.000 | His rookie year, running back for a touchdown.

00:01:55.700 | Wow.

00:01:56.140 | That's awesome.

00:01:56.500 | Right.

00:01:56.720 | And so as a D end, it was like one of those, he got hit as he was throwing it and the ball

00:02:01.220 | bounced up and he caught it and ran it down.

00:02:02.960 | Oh, man.

00:02:03.280 | So it was like one of those big, you know, lumberjack, you're like going through.

00:02:06.100 | Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:02:06.740 | But yeah, so I mean, so but anyway, but like my life was centered around sports.

00:02:12.160 | My life was centered as an athlete.

00:02:13.640 | And so when football was going well, life was well.

00:02:15.620 | When football was going bad, life was bad.

00:02:17.340 | But like people ask me, like, did you have a hard life growing up?

00:02:20.160 | I would have like, no, my life was pretty easy.

00:02:22.400 | But it was ultimately because of football.

00:02:24.460 | Because if you look at my life, I think about like, you know, I went through divorce.

00:02:28.820 | I was on welfare.

00:02:30.160 | We lived in the hood.

00:02:31.600 | Like, after my dad's career was over, you know, I had a mom, you know, who was, you

00:02:36.900 | know, became a drug addict and like disappeared for days.

00:02:40.040 | I didn't know where my dad was between the fifth grade to the eighth grade.

00:02:43.500 | Like, so like I think about all the trauma.

00:02:46.000 | The high and the low.

00:02:47.160 | Yeah, all of that, all the trauma that has come from that.

00:02:49.560 | But people's like, well, did you have a hard life?

00:02:51.260 | I was like, no, because like I had football, I had sports.

00:02:53.940 | It was like sports settled me.

00:02:56.260 | Yeah.

00:02:56.660 | In a lot of ways.

00:02:57.880 | But then what happened was is that I, out of high school,

00:03:01.240 | I didn't have a scholarship offer to a major division one school.

00:03:04.100 | And I was just like, what?

00:03:05.120 | Like my football career, what does that mean?

00:03:07.940 | And it was like, I had a couple of small schools offer me.

00:03:10.080 | And so I was just like, oh, well, like, like, okay, I'd rather go to junior college into a

00:03:15.740 | small school.

00:03:16.300 | So I declined all the smaller school offers.

00:03:18.700 | Yeah.

00:03:19.040 | Went to a JUCO.

00:03:19.940 | And, but, but there was something in me says, man, like there has to be more than life than

00:03:24.840 | this, than sports.

00:03:25.960 | Yeah.

00:03:26.420 | And I just went on a search.

00:03:28.720 | And so basically those first couple of years, first year and a half, I just went to search.

00:03:34.280 | I ended up becoming a world religions major.

00:03:36.080 | Yeah.

00:03:36.500 | Yeah.

00:03:36.800 | You shared, well, I mean, like to, to major in it, that's pretty serious.

00:03:40.200 | How did that, how did that decision?

00:03:41.520 | Well, it just started off just searching.

00:03:42.960 | Like literally, I mean, I would just study Hinduism, like Buddhism, African tribal religions.

00:03:47.660 | It's like, I would just study, like, all right, get it.

00:03:50.120 | And then I started like formalizing, I want to take a class on this.

00:03:53.420 | And I would start taking classes.

00:03:54.680 | And then I was just like, oh, I could make this a minor.

00:03:57.260 | Oh, I might as well just make this, you know, and it just, and it literally just became,

00:04:01.020 | because I started off as a math major.

00:04:02.760 | Oh, really?

00:04:03.520 | So I started off as a math major, engineering, you know, and I was an engineer major for like

00:04:08.500 | two classes.

00:04:09.520 | And then like, I went to the, I went there and the professor was just like, if you don't

00:04:13.480 | like what you're currently doing now, you probably don't want to be an engineer.

00:04:16.840 | And I don't think I ever went back to that class.

00:04:18.640 | That was my freshman year.

00:04:19.960 | And I think that was, that's all I needed to know.

00:04:21.780 | Because I mean, I'm a people person, relational, all of those things, but I was good at math.

00:04:25.900 | So people was just like, oh, if you're good at math, become an engineer.

00:04:28.500 | And so I was just like, and then I was an engineer.

00:04:31.140 | I was like, this is not it.

00:04:31.960 | So describe like you're, you're studying all these religions.

00:04:35.100 | Did, did any of them stand out to you?

00:04:37.100 | I mean, eventually, of course you became Christian, but like, yeah.

00:04:40.060 | Yeah.

00:04:40.180 | Well, I mean, I think the nation of Islam really actually stood out to me.

00:04:43.500 | But part of it was because their proactivity in the hood.

00:04:45.800 | Yeah.

00:04:46.360 | Right.

00:04:46.740 | I saw, and I was during a time when like, there was a movie called Malcolm X.

00:04:50.320 | Yeah.

00:04:50.580 | That was out.

00:04:51.500 | Denzel.

00:04:52.320 | Denzel.

00:04:52.920 | Yeah.

00:04:53.300 | And you had Farrakhan and all of them.

00:04:55.080 | Yeah.

00:04:55.320 | And, you know, and during that time, they were the people that I saw.

00:04:58.880 | And there's like, I didn't see Christians.

00:05:01.120 | I saw them selling with the bean pies and doing like, I saw them out and doing.

00:05:05.720 | And I was just like, I wanted a proactive, whatever I was going to do.

00:05:09.120 | And so oftentimes I was just like, oh man, I'm going to take the best of all of these things.

00:05:13.400 | And it's like, I'm going to make my own.

00:05:15.120 | I don't know.

00:05:15.740 | I'm going to take the best of what the nation is doing.

00:05:17.260 | They're out here.

00:05:18.360 | But my, my other friend, my best friend at the time, he was a Christian.

00:05:22.020 | His mom was a Christian and she gave me a Bible.

00:05:25.520 | And I was just like, okay, I got to bring all this together.

00:05:28.580 | And, you know, and so those, there was a lot of things that stood out in a lot of different

00:05:33.440 | world religions.

00:05:34.200 | And so I was just like, if I can just take the best of all of these things and bring

00:05:37.420 | them together, I was just like, I can create my own.

00:05:39.200 | Again, I didn't have anything to work with because I wasn't raised in the church and it was just

00:05:42.600 | kind of like, I just thought that that's what people did.

00:05:44.880 | Yeah.

00:05:45.240 | Yeah.

00:05:45.540 | Yeah.

00:05:46.560 | Yeah.

00:05:46.920 | Yeah.

00:05:47.340 | So, so then as you're, as you're taking it together, how did, how did the turn towards

00:05:50.640 | Christianity and only Christianity sort of?

00:05:53.060 | Well, because, you know, ultimately, again, I had this Bible.

00:05:57.080 | I started reading this Bible and I started hanging out with, um, I got, I got invited to church

00:06:02.820 | and I remember, you know, as I was reading, I was just like, and I was just studying.

00:06:07.120 | I was like, there has to be more than life in sports.

00:06:10.860 | And I was just like, for many things and many times people was really saying, Hey, you're

00:06:17.960 | not good enough and you need a savior.

00:06:19.460 | And that's what Christianity spoke to me because I, you know, I was, I grew up in the hood.

00:06:23.140 | I grew up around a family that has been decimated by drugs and alcohol, but it had a negative

00:06:27.620 | effect on me because it ended my dad's career early.

00:06:30.460 | And my mom became a drug addict, all these things.

00:06:33.180 | And so I was like, I'm never touching this stuff because I've seen what it does to a family.

00:06:37.780 | So I've never smoked.

00:06:38.600 | I never drank.

00:06:39.300 | I've never done any of that.

00:06:40.460 | Even though my family was, was doing that because I was, I was like, I need to be an athlete.

00:06:45.440 | But now that I'm just kind of like, Oh, there has to be more than this.

00:06:48.960 | I said, all right, I can't do this anymore.

00:06:50.840 | But so I was quote unquote, a good kid.

00:06:54.140 | Yeah.

00:06:54.480 | Yeah.

00:06:55.000 | But I knew that I was broken and that there was this God sized void.

00:06:57.640 | And so I think about Ecclesiastes three and 11, where he says that Christ has, God has wrote

00:07:02.020 | eternity on every man's heart.

00:07:04.140 | And that's what I feel.

00:07:05.360 | I couldn't articulate it that way, but there was this felt like there was this God sized

00:07:09.660 | void in my heart that I knew that harder work, good behavior, wasn't going to feel that it

00:07:16.220 | was something different in, in Christianity is the thing that spoke.

00:07:19.660 | Wow.

00:07:19.920 | That's kind of, yeah.

00:07:20.960 | And that's kind of amazing that, um, coming out of the background and came out of like

00:07:24.880 | all that trauma, like you shared and all that, there wasn't like this, Oh, I'm comparing myself

00:07:28.760 | to them.

00:07:29.140 | And you're telling me I'm like that, you know, like I'm a sinner, you know?

00:07:31.940 | Um, but instead you, you realize you're able to see through all that and, um, and actually

00:07:38.100 | accept that Christian message.

00:07:39.560 | You're not good enough.

00:07:40.360 | You need a savior.

00:07:41.160 | So that, I think that's amazing.

00:07:42.500 | Um, and I think it's also amazing that that happened in college just cause, you know, we're

00:07:45.820 | our heartbeat is college and college ministry and that sort of thing.

00:07:48.740 | And so, um, what, what, like did you get involved with the college ministry, a campus

00:07:52.620 | fellowship, like kind of, how did that.

00:07:53.960 | So basically I ended up, you know, that I accepted Christ, my, um, going into my second

00:07:59.440 | year and I was at Citrus college at the time.

00:08:02.880 | So we're here and I was in Cali.

00:08:04.460 | Just reading the Bible.

00:08:05.560 | Yeah.

00:08:06.040 | Just reading the Bible and look like, again, nobody shared their faith with me.

00:08:09.480 | Nobody came, you know?

00:08:11.320 | And so it, here's the funny thing.

00:08:12.860 | Like I literally remember like, cause I started going to like church with my friends.

00:08:17.620 | And so I remember, I was just like, you know what, I'm this Sunday, it was like a Tuesday.

00:08:22.080 | I said, this Sunday, I'm going to give my life to Jesus.

00:08:25.340 | Cause I thought the only way you can give your life is like the altar call at the very end.

00:08:29.840 | Like I was like, that's the only way.

00:08:31.140 | So I was like, so I remember going to church and I'm giving my life today is the day I'm

00:08:35.240 | going to give my life, you know, to Jesus.

00:08:37.220 | And, um, I don't even know what the pastor preached on that Sunday because I was just

00:08:40.980 | so excited that I was going to, at the end, I was going to walk down, you know, to things.

00:08:44.940 | So I don't know what our theology says about that, but somewhere between Tuesday and Sunday.

00:08:49.400 | So did he, he gave an altar call.

00:08:51.400 | Yeah, he gave an altar call.

00:08:52.520 | It would have been bad if he didn't give the altar call.

00:08:53.860 | Yeah, I would have been like, I probably would have said, no, no, no, wait.

00:08:56.860 | Wait, I need to.

00:08:57.860 | Like this is, this is happening today.

00:08:59.860 | Wow.

00:09:00.860 | You know, and it was just one of those, one of those things.

00:09:02.860 | And so I ended up getting a scholarship to the University of North Texas.

00:09:05.860 | And then, and at North Texas, was that a sports scholarship?

00:09:09.480 | Yeah, sports scholarship.

00:09:10.580 | So ended up playing football, um, was, I was playing football during the time, got a scholarship

00:09:15.100 | to the University of North Texas.

00:09:16.100 | And at North Texas, I met a group of people who was on fire for the Lord.

00:09:20.020 | And I was like, Oh, I love it.

00:09:22.040 | This, this was the first group of Christian friends that was on fire.

00:09:26.300 | Cause again, my friends would have said they were Christian, but I don't remember literally

00:09:31.580 | having one spiritual conversation, my entire upbringing.

00:09:36.140 | Wow.

00:09:36.660 | Like I just didn't, this wasn't a thing.

00:09:38.720 | Yeah.

00:09:38.960 | I wasn't like, I didn't, I wasn't antagonistic to Christianity.

00:09:41.900 | I didn't, you know, I just, we just, it just wasn't a thing.

00:09:44.240 | I do remember one time our coach in high school bringing us over to his house and let us play

00:09:50.460 | games and, you know, and ordering pizza.

00:09:52.780 | And then we sat in a room, but I don't remember nothing he said or whatever.

00:09:56.640 | And I was just like, that was probably an FCA meeting or something like that.

00:09:59.800 | Wow.

00:10:00.120 | And so I think I probably went to an FCA meeting, but again, it was just so foreign to me.

00:10:06.160 | Yeah.

00:10:06.480 | Like it was just like, it was, that was the only time.

00:10:08.480 | And I was just like, cause people always talking about overseas and, and all that.

00:10:11.380 | I was just like, man, somehow I navigated my whole, um, 20 plus years, 21 years of life,

00:10:18.900 | never having like any type of real gospel conversations.

00:10:22.020 | Wow.

00:10:22.340 | And so people think like, no, America's saturated with the gospel already.

00:10:25.400 | I was just like, no, it's not like, I'm, I'm a, I'm a witness of that.

00:10:29.860 | Right.

00:10:30.340 | Is that you can go so long without ever hearing it.

00:10:32.640 | So I had my first Christian friends, you know, here in college and they introduced me to a world of, oh, Christians that know like Bible.

00:10:42.660 | And they understand their Bible.

00:10:44.540 | And I was just like, Oh, I love this.

00:10:46.500 | You know, cause you loved it.

00:10:47.700 | Okay.

00:10:47.900 | It didn't like weird you out.

00:10:49.040 | No, it didn't weird me out.

00:10:49.980 | Cause I'm like, as a football player, I was just like, I need to like, I didn't understand what it meant to be a Christian.

00:10:55.920 | But I was just like, I know like two a days.

00:10:57.520 | I know like, you know, practice makes perfect.

00:10:59.980 | So I was like, let me get it.

00:11:01.560 | Like, Hey, so I started going to a study every single day.

00:11:04.360 | And I was like, cause I'm going to know my Bible.

00:11:06.220 | I'm going to learn my Bible.

00:11:07.540 | I'm going to, you know, and it was like, at first it was like, Hey, if you got to get stronger, get in the gym, you're going to get stronger, you know, and that's kind of the mindset.

00:11:15.880 | So it's all, it wasn't grace-based.

00:11:18.200 | It was just purely like, let's get it.

00:11:20.500 | Let's get into it.

00:11:21.220 | Let's get into it.

00:11:21.860 | Okay.

00:11:22.100 | But it was, but it was what God used early in my, um, my walk to fall in love with the Bible, fall in love with his word.

00:11:28.900 | Was there anything, um, any books in particular or something in particular that like really formed your early hunger for the world?

00:11:34.880 | Well, the, the best book that helped inform me.

00:11:39.240 | Yeah.

00:11:39.500 | And I still read it yearly.

00:11:41.360 | Yeah.

00:11:41.800 | Is a book called 30 days to understanding the Bible.

00:11:44.120 | Okay.

00:11:44.540 | 30 days.

00:11:45.340 | Who's that by?

00:11:46.100 | Because by Max Anders.

00:11:47.660 | Okay.

00:11:48.040 | Max Anders.

00:11:48.780 | And again, here I was, I was like, Lord, I just need to know my Bible.

00:11:52.220 | I don't know my Bible.

00:11:53.080 | And I remember going to, at the time, Family Christian Bookstore.

00:11:55.980 | Okay.

00:11:56.260 | It's when they had stores.

00:11:57.340 | You actually had to go to the store.

00:11:58.880 | Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:11:59.400 | So Family Christian Bookstore, and I was just like, Lord, I just want to know my Bible.

00:12:01.740 | And it was like, oh, like there was a Bible that says 30 days to understanding the Bible.

00:12:07.320 | That's what I need.

00:12:07.920 | That's it.

00:12:08.420 | I picked up that book.

00:12:09.600 | No one told me to pick the book up.

00:12:10.960 | I picked that book up.

00:12:11.980 | Yeah.

00:12:12.220 | And I was just like, I started reading it.

00:12:14.600 | And that just helped.

00:12:15.520 | Yeah.

00:12:16.000 | It just gave me language.

00:12:17.840 | It gave me understanding to the Bible.

00:12:20.460 | Basically, it just says that the Bible is written in 12 different eras.

00:12:24.820 | And every era has four different periods.

00:12:26.640 | And it just breaks it down from Genesis all the way to Revelation.

00:12:29.660 | Wow.

00:12:30.200 | And it just breaks it down.

00:12:30.900 | And so even today, when I'm teaching, I have a group that I disciple now, and we're going through that book now.

00:12:36.760 | Yeah.

00:12:36.980 | So I constantly take people through it because it was revolutionary.

00:12:40.440 | Yeah.

00:12:41.020 | Just they're giving me an understanding.

00:12:42.760 | And so that was the thing.

00:12:44.920 | You know, I just fell in love with God's word.

00:12:47.520 | Yeah.

00:12:47.820 | Yeah.

00:12:47.960 | I fell in love with helping others because I knew what it was like to be someone who knew nothing.

00:12:53.480 | Yeah.

00:12:53.800 | Right?

00:12:54.200 | Yeah.

00:12:54.460 | I can tell now it was like a honeymoon phase for you, like that kind of thing.

00:13:00.580 | It's awesome to see that in college ministry when college students pick that up.

00:13:05.260 | So, so, I mean, you, you eventually, I mean, you've, you've got a ministry resume, if you will.

00:13:10.540 | You've, you've, you're, you're now, you know, doing ministry and, and you, you started from

00:13:13.920 | that point.

00:13:14.440 | How did that journey happen?

00:13:16.340 | Like getting into ministry?

00:13:17.440 | Well, ultimately I started like learning the Bible and I was going to different Bible studies

00:13:22.820 | on campus.

00:13:23.400 | Like I didn't care.

00:13:24.380 | I didn't discriminate because like I said, like my story history, like I knew what it was

00:13:28.660 | like to be, have money and wealthy when my dad was playing pro football.

00:13:31.640 | So I felt comfortable in the fluent circles, right?

00:13:35.240 | In majority culture.

00:13:36.400 | And then, but I also felt comfortable in the hood, right?

00:13:38.840 | Because we was on welfare, you know?

00:13:40.540 | And so I was just like, I want to go to any, I go to any system.

00:13:43.360 | I was at Campus Couset, Intervarsity Navigator.

00:13:45.100 | I was at a different study every single day because I wanted to grow and I wanted to learn.

00:13:48.800 | And it was at that time that I started hearing terms about evangelism and discipleship.

00:13:53.880 | And so kind of what led to kind of my call, because I started inviting my friends to these

00:13:59.780 | studies and it was just like, ah, nah, I can't, I'm not feeling the, they're not, there wasn't

00:14:04.720 | willing to make the cross-cultural jump.

00:14:07.060 | It was like, ah, you know, the acoustic guitar is just not my vibe.

00:14:10.920 | It's just kind of like, so I was just like, Lord, I want to create something that I can

00:14:15.180 | invite my friends to.

00:14:17.360 | And that was really, that was kind of my call.

00:14:19.860 | This, I want to do something I can invite my friends to.

00:14:22.780 | And that's kind of where we started a ministry, um, there, because at the time, the only thing

00:14:27.340 | that we had on our campus was, uh, you know, for minorities, specifically African-Americans

00:14:31.740 | was a gospel choir.

00:14:33.360 | Okay.

00:14:33.820 | And it was just kind of like, there was a gospel choir and I, you know, and it was great.

00:14:37.220 | I went there all the time, but I couldn't sing.

00:14:39.260 | So you didn't really want that to be my primary thing.

00:14:42.140 | It says make a joyful noise.

00:14:43.500 | And that noise that I was making wasn't that joyful.

00:14:45.920 | Got it.

00:14:46.700 | Got it.

00:14:47.460 | Wow.

00:14:47.800 | Um, could, could you describe a little bit of that?

00:14:50.480 | I just want to probe in that a little bit more, just, um, that desire to reach your friends.

00:14:55.020 | Um, yeah.

00:14:56.500 | Like what, it sounds like you were in a lot of different social circles.

00:15:00.000 | Uh, I think, um, I think that's always like, um, maybe a difficulty when we're trying to

00:15:05.140 | disciple call the students is like when they become Christian, you want to introduce

00:15:09.160 | some of their Christian friends, but then that has a tendency to like become a bubble and

00:15:12.740 | then they lose all their non-Christian friends and then they have to do like cold evangelism

00:15:16.180 | and that's way harder.

00:15:16.880 | So then like, how did, how did all that work out for you where you're able to be in all

00:15:20.580 | these different worlds and sort of not get like pulled back into old life, you know, or

00:15:25.820 | whatever that, you know?

00:15:26.600 | Well, I mean, part of it was having that, like the grounded because part of my natural,

00:15:32.120 | I was a football player.

00:15:33.500 | So as a football player, I already naturally had not just the football team, but athletes.

00:15:38.360 | Cause you know, we, I don't know if you know, but, um, as athletes, we oftentimes call

00:15:43.000 | the non-athletes civilians.

00:15:44.500 | Oh yeah.

00:15:45.120 | So yeah, that's, that's, that's, you know, so it's just like the civilians out there, you

00:15:49.660 | know, and it's kind of like, because athletes kind of bond because there's this world that

00:15:53.840 | we have waking up at five in the morning and doing all the stuff that we have to do.

00:15:58.160 | And so it was just, you know, so there's, you have the football team, but you have other

00:16:01.720 | athletes and all that.

00:16:02.980 | So being in that world, but it was oftentimes in those times, I felt very lonely, you know,

00:16:08.620 | being an athlete and being one of the only Christians as an athlete on the football team

00:16:13.920 | and, and all of that.

00:16:15.240 | And so, you know, so anytime somebody would come, you know, it's like, Hey, I'm a Christian.

00:16:20.460 | I would love to talk to your team, like a chaplain or something.

00:16:22.580 | It's like, Oh, you should talk to D Lou.

00:16:23.760 | You should talk to D Lou because it was like, he's the only Christian.

00:16:26.480 | And so that was the, the thing.

00:16:29.100 | But what I realized is that isolation and loneliness that I had ended up becoming a tool and a witness

00:16:34.680 | because, um, you know, when our football, when my friends that was on the team, they were,

00:16:40.940 | when they were really got down on their low on their, you know, they was just like, where

00:16:45.080 | am I going to go?

00:16:45.580 | I don't want to go to the guys.

00:16:47.120 | I want to talk to somebody that's going to really help me.

00:16:49.080 | And then oftentimes there was many guys that came to know the Lord, you know, because of

00:16:54.400 | just simply just me being consistent.

00:16:56.780 | Yeah.

00:16:57.200 | Right.

00:16:57.720 | Just being consistent in the Lord.

00:16:58.980 | And when in the appropriate time, the Lord drew them, you know, to, and, and so there was

00:17:04.120 | this, those types of conversations, but then I would still have my friends that were believers

00:17:09.680 | and all that.

00:17:10.300 | And so there was oftentimes that I felt like I would have to bounce back into multiple different

00:17:14.560 | worlds, but I don't know.

00:17:16.660 | I think this, the Lord, he sustained me, you know, during that time.

00:17:20.280 | And, and I was fanatic about it.

00:17:22.540 | I was one of those things because we, you know,

00:17:24.560 | Do you have a nickname?

00:17:25.020 | Did they give you a nickname?

00:17:25.980 | Oh, I don't know.

00:17:26.900 | It probably caught me a lot of stuff, but you know, but I mean, but like, I don't know if

00:17:30.960 | you're familiar with like, um, reach records and all that.

00:17:34.180 | And so like you and, you know, when they started, it was one, one, six.

00:17:38.200 | Yeah.

00:17:38.480 | Yeah.

00:17:39.380 | And that's where it all started.

00:17:40.300 | Romans 1.

00:17:40.800 | Like we was Romans 1.

00:17:41.860 | We are not ashamed.

00:17:42.840 | And so we would go around campus.

00:17:44.720 | And at the time it was in 98, 99, you know, um, we were like, it was, we felt we were more

00:17:51.020 | like a Christian for fraternity and sorority than we were like a Bible study.

00:17:55.080 | So we would go in the campus.

00:17:56.280 | If we see somebody who's like, you got to move, baby.

00:17:58.760 | And then if somebody heard, he's like, move, baby, move.

00:18:01.640 | And so what they were basically, what we were saying is our ministry was called men of virtue

00:18:06.740 | and excellence.

00:18:07.600 | Wow.

00:18:07.980 | Right.

00:18:08.220 | And so we said move and it was an acronym.

00:18:10.000 | Yeah.

00:18:10.440 | And then our women, the Proverbs is like Proverbs 31.

00:18:14.040 | So, and they would say with the PV three, one, three, one.

00:18:16.880 | And so it'd be like, until that was a thing.

00:18:19.260 | So we went around campus.

00:18:21.480 | Yeah.

00:18:21.840 | Like it was like, no, we're more than a Bible study.

00:18:24.080 | We're like a fraternity.

00:18:25.040 | We're one, one, six.

00:18:25.980 | We're unashamed.

00:18:26.840 | Like we're like, we're those radical, all saved, all serious believers.

00:18:30.620 | Yeah.

00:18:31.120 | And we were just on campus.

00:18:32.160 | That's awesome.

00:18:32.700 | We're going.

00:18:33.200 | And so, so that developed a reputation.

00:18:36.080 | Yeah.

00:18:36.600 | Right.

00:18:36.980 | That developed a reputation of what we were doing.

00:18:39.320 | And yeah, and it does just, you know, just kind of God gave us favor.

00:18:43.040 | And so by the time I graduated, by the time I graduated, people from like TCU and Oklahoma

00:18:49.360 | and there was just like, what?

00:18:51.560 | They started hearing about what are y'all doing down there in North Texas?

00:18:53.880 | We heard it.

00:18:54.540 | And then it was just like, and at that time I was like,

00:18:56.480 | I would love to help people start these, you know?

00:18:59.640 | And so I ended up joining a ministry called Impact, which was a part of Crusade.

00:19:03.280 | Yeah.

00:19:03.700 | Going here towards reaching African-Americans.

00:19:05.640 | And I did that.

00:19:06.740 | And so literally as an intern, I was literally an intern.

00:19:10.840 | Intern college minister.

00:19:12.080 | I would go and start ministries at TCU and Baylor and, you know, and that's where I met

00:19:17.580 | like John O, John Anwuchekwa and all of them.

00:19:20.640 | And then they ended up moving to North Texas.

00:19:23.080 | And, you know, and so it was all of that, but it was just ultimately just saying, hey,

00:19:28.200 | we're just being all saved, all serious, unashamed and just, you know, about it.

00:19:32.900 | Yeah, yeah.

00:19:33.520 | No, I love that because, yeah, I mean, first of all, just college, you know, when college

00:19:38.240 | students really catch it, like they catch it, man.

00:19:40.380 | And there's just so much that, just that desire to like do something awesome for God and do

00:19:46.060 | that with a bunch of friends.

00:19:47.080 | And then to like, not just like see each other on Sunday, but you're seeing them on campus

00:19:51.120 | all the time.

00:19:51.680 | And so then you're doing that, like calling each other out a little bit, you know, Hebrews,

00:19:54.980 | you know, like 10, as long as call today, you're just like meeting each other.

00:19:58.680 | And that's such an amazing incubator for faith, you know?

00:20:01.820 | So then you're doing college ministry, but eventually you moved to Atlanta.

00:20:05.940 | What was there like a, how did that happen?

00:20:07.940 | How many years was that?

00:20:08.840 | Yeah.

00:20:09.160 | So, all right.

00:20:10.260 | So in 2000, 1999, I graduated, led the ministry through Impact for two years.

00:20:16.720 | And then I went on staff with a church called Denton Bible Church in 2001.

00:20:21.720 | They did that from 2001 to 2004.

00:20:23.420 | So now I'm about five, six years removed.

00:20:25.680 | Yeah.

00:20:25.960 | Our college ministry grew and it got to a point where people were like graduating, but they

00:20:29.860 | weren't leaving Denton.

00:20:30.800 | And if you know Denton, Denton is not like your urban hub.

00:20:33.060 | It's more of a college town.

00:20:34.540 | Yeah.

00:20:34.800 | Had the Walmart at the time.

00:20:36.200 | But the people started getting married.

00:20:38.700 | They started having kids.

00:20:39.700 | Oh, yeah.

00:20:40.060 | It was just like, like we have a college ministry where we have to have a daycare, right?

00:20:44.700 | It's like, this is not a college ministry anymore.

00:20:46.640 | Yeah.

00:20:47.200 | So in 2004, we basically said, we got to start a church.

00:20:50.760 | Right.

00:20:51.520 | And it just kind of like, all right, well, let's start a church.

00:20:54.920 | And so that's what we did.

00:20:56.040 | We started a church called Lifeline Bible Fellowship.

00:20:58.900 | And we did that for some years.

00:21:01.100 | And at that time, people, you know, that's when like Reach Records started.

00:21:05.060 | Okay.

00:21:05.520 | Yeah.

00:21:06.180 | Coming, you know, and people were like, oh, you need to, you know, you're both culturally relevant,

00:21:12.060 | but you're doctrinally sound.

00:21:13.360 | Yeah.

00:21:13.820 | Like, where'd you get it from?

00:21:14.900 | And it was like, didn't.

00:21:15.960 | And it was just like, it was just like, oh, like, didn't.

00:21:19.740 | And so we just started dreaming.

00:21:21.340 | So from 2004 and that 2007, we just said, all right, Lord, are you calling us somewhere else?

00:21:27.220 | And so December 15th of 2007, my wife and I said, all right, we're feeling called to go plant a church in Atlanta.

00:21:36.820 | And when we made that commitment, 25 others says, well, if you guys go, we're going with you.

00:21:43.500 | And so 25 people ended up moving to Atlanta, and then that number jumped to about 40 that moved to Atlanta.

00:21:50.040 | And these are all people who like discipled under you.

00:21:52.100 | Yeah, all people.

00:21:52.580 | So during that time, 35 of the 40 people lived in our home.

00:21:56.640 | Oh.

00:21:57.160 | Yeah.

00:21:57.880 | So like personally lived in our home at some point in time.

00:22:01.560 | That's crazy.

00:22:02.600 | And that was it.

00:22:04.100 | Because when we talk about discipleship, it was like, it's about discipleship.

00:22:07.220 | It's about disciple making, you know, because I feel like that was the missing piece in a lot of ways.

00:22:11.980 | That people was just like, yeah, I'm a Christian.

00:22:13.580 | Just go to church, kind of sit in the pew.

00:22:15.640 | It was like, no, no.

00:22:16.560 | It's like, there's this thing called the Great Commission.

00:22:18.980 | Like, let's like, did anybody.

00:22:21.360 | Because listen, like, because here it was, I'm like, I'm in this campus ministry, and I'm hearing things like discipleship and evangelism.

00:22:28.380 | I was just like, this must be a secret.

00:22:30.400 | Like, people must not know about this because no one's talking about it.

00:22:34.840 | Like, because I'm like, I'm like, these are terms that no one's saying.

00:22:37.680 | Like, to them, Christianity was like, don't go to the club.

00:22:40.060 | Don't drink.

00:22:40.640 | Don't have sex outside of marriage.

00:22:41.880 | Don't join a fraternity.

00:22:42.780 | I was like, stop it with all the stop, the don't do's.

00:22:46.340 | I was just like, evangelism, discipleship.

00:22:48.960 | And then I started talking to people.

00:22:49.980 | I was like, man, there's this term in the Bible that's calling us to go make a disciple.

00:22:53.240 | I was like, yeah, I know.

00:22:53.980 | I was just like, well, then why are you not doing it?

00:22:57.060 | I was like, why is no one making disciples?

00:22:59.260 | And that's really where we just said, like, all right, well, like, this is about discipleship.

00:23:04.020 | This is about disciple making.

00:23:05.200 | And that's really what it's become about.

00:23:06.900 | And so, like, in 2001, the Lord, like, just really placed in my spirit because I would go and I felt like this third culture kid.

00:23:15.780 | It's like either I was around a group of people who understood my context, but they didn't have the same commitment to theology and mission.

00:23:22.860 | Or I was around people who understood theology and mission, but they didn't understand my context.

00:23:26.740 | And I was just like, Lord, I feel like I'm just this third culture kid.

00:23:30.240 | No one gets me.

00:23:31.280 | Right.

00:23:31.800 | And I'm just lonely and isolated.

00:23:32.960 | And I was just like, I want to be the last generation to leave the urban context for sound discipleship.

00:23:38.900 | And I was just like, what does it look like to make discipleship accessible in every urban context?

00:23:44.180 | And that was the commitment I made in 2001.

00:23:46.420 | And that's really, for the last 25 years, has been about that discipleship and disciple making and, you know, and bringing it in the urban context.

00:23:56.720 | Yeah.

00:23:57.200 | Could you, because I think, yeah, like, in your experience, you know, people aren't even using the word discipleship.

00:24:03.620 | I think today it's a little different where discipleship gets thrown around a lot, but the understanding of what discipleship is doesn't sound like 35 people living in your home, you know?

00:24:13.000 | And so if you could just like, what, if you were to define discipleship and, and I think that today, a lot of people throw around the word discipleship and what they mean is like curriculum or they mean a group of people telling each other to do stuff they already should be doing.

00:24:28.480 | It doesn't sound like, it doesn't look like 35 people living in your home.

00:24:32.360 | So if you could just define discipleship and talk about how that plays out.

00:24:34.820 | Well, one of the things, and it comes through this concept of discipleship is two things.

00:24:40.060 | I was saying too many of us have reduced discipleship to mentorship.

00:24:44.400 | Mentorship is an aspect of discipleship, but it's not all of discipleship.

00:24:48.580 | What do you mean by that?

00:24:48.840 | Like, because a lot of times people think about discipleship is just the one-on-one or the one-on-three or even the one-on-twelve.

00:24:55.360 | And I was just like, yes, like that, that's, that is an aspect because Jesus had the three, Jesus had the twelve.

00:25:02.000 | Right.

00:25:02.360 | But you know what?

00:25:02.940 | Jesus also had 70.

00:25:04.120 | Yeah.

00:25:04.600 | And I was like, would anybody call one-on-seventy discipleship?

00:25:08.040 | Right.

00:25:08.540 | And, and so I was just like, so there's, there's a problem either with our frameworks of what discipleship and what we're doing and, you know, and all that.

00:25:16.700 | So I said, you know, but the other thing was like, I would talk to pastors and I would say, what is your plan for discipleship and your church?

00:25:24.840 | And they would always say, ultimately they would talk about, well, discipleship is basically a once a week meeting at Starbucks where I'm going to ask you about your life.

00:25:32.960 | I get the best book out at the current time and I get this once a week meeting.

00:25:36.820 | And I was just like, that's discipleship.

00:25:39.220 | You know, and I was just like, I just wanted to be committed to like, I just read the Bible and I see what, what Christ was called.

00:25:45.080 | And I was just like, and I just want to reproduce that.

00:25:47.560 | And I was just like, here's the thing.

00:25:48.820 | Jesus was the only man who walked the earth that had the fullness of the spirit of God.

00:25:54.420 | Right.

00:25:55.100 | If like, he's the only person that had what the Bible says, the pleroma of God, right.

00:26:00.340 | That he is both God's ideal man and man's ideal God, right.

00:26:04.600 | In him, he's the God man.

00:26:05.920 | Right.

00:26:06.460 | And, but, you know, for the rest of us, right.

00:26:09.740 | If I say, just simply follow me, all I'm going to do is make a lopsided mini me of myself.

00:26:14.220 | We're going to get all my flaws and all my things where Jesus is the only pure, like all.

00:26:19.340 | But the Bible says that if you want to, um, see the pleroma of God, the fullness of God in the way, where do we go?

00:26:26.720 | You don't go to one individual.

00:26:27.840 | You have to go to the church.

00:26:29.220 | It says in, um, Ecclesia, not Ecclesia, Ephesians chapter three, 10, it says the manifold wisdom, the multifaceted wisdom of God is displayed in the church.

00:26:38.480 | And so when I talk about discipleship, my definition is this, it's our capacity to lovingly embody the person and work of Jesus and to transfer him into the life of others.

00:26:51.360 | Wow.

00:26:51.840 | Right.

00:26:52.140 | And so, so if you hear that, I start with our capacity.

00:26:56.120 | What I'm saying is it starts with the local church.

00:26:58.280 | Yeah.

00:26:58.540 | The idea of disciple making is not a ministry of the church.

00:27:01.660 | It is the ministry of the church that we are called to be disciple makers.

00:27:05.960 | So it's our capacity where you see the pleroma, the manifold wisdom of God being displayed where you've got apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers coming together to bring.

00:27:18.520 | There's an old African proverb that says it takes a village to raise a child.

00:27:22.820 | And ultimately what we're saying is that if it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a church to raise a Christian.

00:27:27.460 | It takes a community.

00:27:28.440 | Yeah.

00:27:28.860 | Right.

00:27:29.240 | And so that's where, so it's community based where there's different, you may have the gift of evangelists.

00:27:34.220 | You may have the gift of helps.

00:27:35.180 | You may have the gift of administration.

00:27:36.320 | You have the gift of, and we all come together for the purpose of helping them make disciples.

00:27:41.380 | So it's, it's our capacity to lovingly embody the person and work of Jesus.

00:27:45.860 | Yeah.

00:27:46.220 | Right.

00:27:46.620 | Yeah.

00:27:47.040 | Who has the fullness of God and to transfer him into the life of others.

00:27:52.000 | And so that is kind of what we talk about is our definition of discipleship.

00:27:56.180 | But then I would say the mechanics of discipleship is simple.

00:27:59.720 | It's simply inviting people into relationship and challenging them to change.

00:28:04.640 | And that is ultimately comes from Matthew chapter four, 19, where Jesus has followed me invitation into relationship and you will become fishers of men that what we're saying is that if you follow me, you will become something.

00:28:18.880 | You will be formed, you will be shaped, you will be challenged to becoming something.

00:28:23.220 | And I think as believers, as some of us, when we talk about discipleship, it's like we're either all invitation and no challenge or all challenge and no invitation.

00:28:31.740 | Yeah.

00:28:32.240 | But discipleship is both and.

00:28:34.220 | Yeah.

00:28:34.520 | It's both invitation and challenge.

00:28:36.440 | And so, you know, and I think once we basically just says, hey, everybody plays a part, you know, big football guy, play football, all of the things.

00:28:43.920 | Yeah.

00:28:44.180 | And I was like, the goal of football is what?

00:28:46.260 | Score touchdowns.

00:28:48.100 | Score touchdowns.

00:28:48.800 | Right.

00:28:49.000 | That's the goal.

00:28:49.580 | That's the goal of football.

00:28:50.400 | Score touchdowns.

00:28:51.220 | But we do recognize that you can go your whole career.

00:28:54.400 | There's some positions you can go your whole career and never, ever score a touchdown.

00:28:57.340 | Does that mean you've had an unsuccessful career?

00:29:00.040 | No.

00:29:01.280 | No.

00:29:01.740 | Why?

00:29:02.420 | Because we recognize that people like guards, centers, and tackles, their position is not designed to score a touchdown.

00:29:10.140 | But we also know that if guards, centers, and tackles don't block, there's no touchdowns being scored.

00:29:17.700 | Yeah.

00:29:18.120 | Right.

00:29:18.280 | And so, I think that's the thing that we have to understand, that if we reduce discipleship to mentorship, where I teach you one-on-one or one-on-three, where the Bible says, don't let all of you become teachers, then I got to also understand, well, what about the gift of, how does the gift of hospitality help me to make disciples?

00:29:35.320 | How does the gift of administration, how does the gift of helps, how does the variety of different gifts help us to make disciples holistically?

00:29:43.960 | And so, when we talk about the we, the church, and the community, there's so much more than just simply the once-a-week meeting where I'm going to teach you something that is the breath.

00:29:55.700 | And so, we try to make a robust picture where everybody belongs and everybody matters.

00:30:00.760 | And so, I take it from the me to the we, you know, when we're talking about discipleship.

00:30:05.280 | Yeah.

00:30:05.820 | I love that because that's something we talk about all the time, that it's the village, it's the whole ecosystem of relationships.

00:30:12.980 | We talk about we, not me, and our way of life, and all of that, and I think that's something that is not emphasized enough, you know, sadly, like not central enough in sort of the American picture of Christianity, you know.

00:30:25.620 | So, it's really encouraging, actually, to hear that vision from, like, someone other than us, you know, and hear that from you.

00:30:31.800 | And so, I could see how that informed a lot of, like, what you guys did when you planted Blueprint.

00:30:37.280 | You planted not just you and your wife moving out, you know, on this heroic quest.

00:30:40.400 | You went with 40 other people.

00:30:42.160 | What were some other things that you guys did intentionally in planning the church and some other things that you said, like, we're going to do it this way that, you know, corresponded with discipleship?

00:30:51.520 | Well, there's a lot of things that we thought we were going to do, but we didn't end up doing, because it's like, you know, the old famous Mike Tyson quote, everybody has a plan until you get punched in the face, right?

00:31:01.140 | You get punched in the face.

00:31:01.740 | So, we got punched in the mouth.

00:31:02.900 | It was like, okay, well, maybe this is not that plan that we...

00:31:05.600 | What happened?

00:31:06.480 | Well, I mean, so, in 2008 is when we moved, right?

00:31:10.700 | Like, 2008 is when most of us moved.

00:31:12.720 | We're looking down.

00:31:13.480 | But, you know, in 2009 is when we actually moved.

00:31:16.580 | If you remember 2008, it was the house crisis.

00:31:19.820 | So, basically, there was no jobs.

00:31:21.620 | Oh, man.

00:31:22.100 | People were moving there.

00:31:23.140 | They had no place to live.

00:31:24.580 | Oh, man.

00:31:25.120 | And so, at first, it was like, let's all move into a specific neighborhood, a specific place.

00:31:28.440 | Yeah.

00:31:28.740 | And then it was just like, they ended up getting scattered everywhere.

00:31:31.580 | Because people was like, I'm still going, but I don't know.

00:31:34.060 | I can't move into that neighborhood.

00:31:35.100 | Like, I can't move into that neighborhood.

00:31:36.300 | I can't move.

00:31:36.760 | And so, we just started spreading out.

00:31:39.060 | We're like, we wanted to be very local, very intentional.

00:31:43.360 | And that, so, things like that.

00:31:44.580 | Like, you know, so, we went in with, like, this plan.

00:31:47.560 | But we did.

00:31:48.240 | We had people all sign covenants.

00:31:49.900 | Yeah.

00:31:50.160 | We says, hey, listen.

00:31:51.280 | Like, I'm not Moses.

00:31:52.880 | Yeah.

00:31:53.420 | Right?

00:31:53.880 | Like, you're not going to blame me.

00:31:55.740 | Like, if stuff goes bad, hard.

00:31:57.540 | Like, why'd you bring me way out here?

00:31:59.500 | So, we would literally make them sign an issue.

00:32:02.720 | Like, life is going to be harder.

00:32:04.460 | It's going to do it.

00:32:05.260 | Like, and we would just walk them through this document, you know, of just saying, you have

00:32:09.940 | to sign each one if you're coming with us.

00:32:12.120 | And so, it's things like that that we were saying.

00:32:14.900 | Because ultimately, we says, count the cost.

00:32:16.560 | The principle was count the cost before you're coming.

00:32:19.940 | Because we're about discipleship.

00:32:21.940 | We're about disciple making.

00:32:22.900 | And we're going to go make disciples.

00:32:24.340 | And life is not going to get easier.

00:32:26.720 | It may even be harder, right, in order to do that.

00:32:29.520 | And so, that's really kind of things like that.

00:32:32.980 | But then when we were there, it was like, what the Lord did is he took it.

00:32:36.280 | And he's just, he still blessed it.

00:32:38.400 | Like, he's.

00:32:39.140 | Yeah.

00:32:39.420 | Could you share some of the bright spots?

00:32:40.980 | Well, I mean, it was just things like just when we got there, just the ability.

00:32:44.020 | Like, people were just inviting people into their homes, right?

00:32:47.440 | Like I told you, 35 out of the 40 people lived with their homes.

00:32:50.420 | And we never did messages on, like, you got to have people live with you and all that.

00:32:54.260 | But, like, early on in the life of Blueprint, everybody had people living in their home.

00:32:57.920 | It was just something that discipleship, discipleship was more caught than taught.

00:33:01.500 | Yeah.

00:33:01.760 | Right?

00:33:02.140 | And they were like, man, they had people living in their homes.

00:33:04.500 | And they had people coming.

00:33:05.960 | And people, as they were coming in, they just built this bond, this community that we were on mission together.

00:33:10.560 | Right?

00:33:11.300 | Oftentimes, people aim for community.

00:33:13.460 | And they never get to the mission.

00:33:15.420 | But we was about mission, and we got community out of it.

00:33:18.980 | And it was just one of those things that just the Lord really blessed.

00:33:22.940 | And people were coming, you know, coming to the Lord, and people were coming and being a part of the church.

00:33:27.060 | I mean, early days, we went to Atlanta.

00:33:29.040 | First of all, we was introduced to Atlanta with a tornado.

00:33:31.820 | Like, tornadoes do not come in Atlanta.

00:33:33.580 | But we were driving in, literally, in the middle of downtown.

00:33:36.640 | I was like, Lord, is this a sign?

00:33:38.480 | Do we need to turn around and go the other way?

00:33:41.200 | So there was, like, a tornado coming.

00:33:43.580 | And then we went in, when we first started service, it was one of the coldest winters ever in Atlanta.

00:33:48.920 | And so it was just like, okay, Lord.

00:33:50.960 | But going through those hard times, going through those sufferings, going through, like, together, was just like, man, that bonded us so much together.

00:34:00.720 | You know, and so oftentimes, people think about, all right, you know, it's got to be, you know, the joyful times were the easy times.

00:34:08.000 | You know, it was a joyful times was just us remembering, like, oh, we're in this thing.

00:34:11.620 | We're in there.

00:34:12.060 | We're grinding together.

00:34:13.000 | We're doing it together.

00:34:14.260 | Yeah.

00:34:14.800 | Not isolated.

00:34:15.360 | It wasn't just me and my wife trying to rough it together.

00:34:17.780 | But it was like we had friends.

00:34:19.080 | We had people.

00:34:19.640 | We had community that was around.

00:34:21.620 | So the beautiful thing is that over the first 10 years of our church, we were about being a church that was planting other churches.

00:34:29.560 | That's why we named the church Blueprint, right?

00:34:31.640 | The definition of a blueprint is a plan or a process that's used as a guide to start something new.

00:34:36.980 | And so we wanted to see more churches planted.

00:34:40.640 | And so, like, at the time, we were sending out a new church every single year, sending, sending, sending, sending.

00:34:46.960 | But it hurt because people were just like, I'm not going to get to know anybody because why would I keep knowing people if I'm just going to send them?

00:34:54.500 | Like, I'm not going to get close to anybody.

00:34:56.220 | And so, like, and so those are, like, the struggles, the challenges.

00:35:00.560 | Like, it looks great and it feels great to kind of say, oh, we're sending church and all these people.

00:35:06.000 | But it's like it's painful relationally because you know that as much as you don't want it to be, relationships are going to change.

00:35:13.080 | Right?

00:35:14.300 | And that impacts.

00:35:15.380 | And so grieving those relationships and, like, losing those relationships, like, some of those relationships are not, you know, and just all of those things, there's both.

00:35:24.720 | And we've learned the idea of joy with sadness.

00:35:28.020 | Yeah, yeah.

00:35:29.320 | I mean, I think we experience the same kinds of tensions, you know.

00:35:33.440 | I would love to have everyone together and just be all together, you know, but then we have to, like, send, right?

00:35:39.800 | And so we're wrestling with that tension of, like, covenant, but then we're also going to have to be on mission.

00:35:44.840 | And then how do we continue to keep those relationships, if we can, you know, like, farther apart.

00:35:49.980 | And so wrestling through those same things.

00:35:52.240 | But just that idea of togetherness you were talking about, too, reminds me of something we like to say, which is, like, you know, if your car breaks down in the middle of, like, the country or whatever, that's a nightmare.

00:36:02.120 | You know, but if you have your friends there, then it becomes an adventure.

00:36:04.720 | And those tough things you go through are things you can laugh about later on.

00:36:08.440 | And so, yeah, man, so inspiring to hear about.

00:36:11.840 | But so then, like, my boulevard, like, where does that come into the story and what exactly is that?

00:36:16.620 | So, okay, so we were crazy.

00:36:18.240 | So we were, you know, 2010, we started the church.

00:36:22.280 | 2011, we decided to start this ministry called, at the time it was called Rebuild.

00:36:27.060 | And it was basically talking about rebuild the city, right?

00:36:31.360 | How do we rebuild the city by planting other churches?

00:36:33.840 | And so we started a church planting side because that's the reason why most of us going to start churches and to plant churches in urban cities.

00:36:40.740 | Like, we wanted to embrace the beauty and the complexity, the density and diversity of city, right?

00:36:46.680 | We was just like, like, we are going to urban environments, the places that no one goes to.

00:36:50.700 | We want to go there.

00:36:52.620 | And so, you know, we started this network.

00:36:56.040 | We started, or we started, at the time, it started off as a training.

00:36:59.480 | And so in 2011, there's a group in St. Louis that decided that we'll trust these idiots, right, who's been here for a whole year, a whole year of planting.

00:37:09.860 | We went through a tornado.

00:37:10.620 | You know, yeah, like, we went through a tornado.

00:37:12.460 | We went through all the time.

00:37:13.240 | We have all the experience now, right?

00:37:15.240 | And so we, and they, and we trained them to start a church.

00:37:19.360 | And then that was 2000, I think, 11, 2012, like now nine other people, nine other churches started in 2013, 13 other, you know, and they were just kind of like these couples kept coming and planting churches all across the urban context was like, come and train.

00:37:36.460 | And so we had that pipeline going where we're training people.

00:37:39.760 | And so over the course, we was able to train, you know, over a hundred church planters, you know, church planting couples to plant churches in urban environments all across the country.

00:37:48.640 | But then while we also had our own incubator and blueprint and that we were sending up, raising up staff and sending them out to plant churches.

00:37:56.560 | And so we would send a group of people, the couple and a group of people along with them to go plant in this, the different areas.

00:38:03.540 | And we did that for several, for these years, like again, one church a year.

00:38:07.840 | And so, so that's where it became rebuilt.

00:38:10.400 | We were doing that in urban environments.

00:38:12.500 | And then there was this group called the Sin Network.

00:38:14.800 | You guys are familiar with that.

00:38:16.940 | And they was like, hey, you know, we want to come alongside you and do that.

00:38:20.860 | And so I started off and I was like, well, I help you with the urban side because that's what I'm passionate about.

00:38:24.720 | And I did that for a few years.

00:38:26.840 | And then in 2015, it was like, hey, can we bring you on staff?

00:38:30.400 | And I was just like, I don't really trust you like that.

00:38:33.620 | But, you know, but I was like, all right, let's do it.

00:38:35.760 | You know, you want to help fund the mission and all that.

00:38:38.040 | So let's do it.

00:38:39.000 | And I really trusted Kevin Nezell and some of the leadership that was there at the time.

00:38:42.460 | And so I came on staff in 2015 and it was able to create.

00:38:45.720 | And so I went from training 10 people every year to 30 people every year, right?

00:38:52.220 | Because I had staff to help train.

00:38:53.540 | And that was my boulevard kind of.

00:38:54.860 | And then we changed it.

00:38:55.860 | And that was the time when we changed the name from Rebuild to Boulevard because I kept Rebuild because I was like, I don't know if I really trust y'all like that.

00:39:02.240 | Right, you know, just in case, I don't know.

00:39:04.900 | So we boulevard, that's why we changed the boulevard.

00:39:07.840 | So it really came out of a little bit of a lack of trust there.

00:39:10.700 | And so we did that for a few years.

00:39:13.480 | If you don't mind me asking, what was like the, I mean, the trust part?

00:39:17.620 | It was just because like, I don't see anyone else doing it.

00:39:19.540 | No one else doing urban.

00:39:20.380 | Okay, so first of all, because I wasn't raised in a church.

00:39:23.360 | Yeah.

00:39:23.660 | And then I started hearing about Southern Baptists.

00:39:26.600 | Oh, okay.

00:39:27.080 | And I was like, Southern and Baptists, right?

00:39:30.760 | And I was just like, okay, I don't get it.

00:39:32.860 | But like, here's the truth.

00:39:33.900 | And they know this about it.

00:39:35.280 | And I said, the only thing I know about Southern Baptists is that you guys hate blacks, gays, and Disney.

00:39:39.960 | Right?

00:39:40.840 | Yeah.

00:39:41.180 | And I was just like, that is the.

00:39:42.900 | That's the reputation.

00:39:43.760 | That's the reputation.

00:39:44.580 | And then when somebody started telling me, no, what Southern Baptists really is, it's a bunch of autonomous churches putting their money into a pod for the purpose of missions.

00:39:52.340 | And I was just like, okay, first we need to fire the marketer.

00:39:56.220 | Whoever's marketing, fire them.

00:39:58.600 | The PR.

00:39:59.160 | And then like the PR people.

00:40:00.180 | Yeah.

00:40:00.380 | And then like, get this message out.

00:40:02.360 | Because I was like, I get that.

00:40:03.420 | Yeah.

00:40:03.880 | I was like, I get that.

00:40:05.180 | And so, but I was still kind of hesitant.

00:40:07.360 | Yeah.

00:40:07.800 | I was still kind of hesitant.

00:40:08.820 | So, so I was just like, all right.

00:40:11.100 | So I, so I was like, I'll come on.

00:40:12.940 | I was a contractor for so many years.

00:40:14.880 | Yeah.

00:40:15.060 | And then Send Network started getting, I was like, all right.

00:40:17.800 | Like there was officially naming it Send Network.

00:40:19.980 | Yeah.

00:40:20.320 | At first it was just Send Cities.

00:40:21.720 | Uh-huh.

00:40:22.220 | And then 2015 Send Network.

00:40:23.720 | And I was just like, and they brought me on staff to increase my capacity.

00:40:27.380 | Yeah.

00:40:27.760 | Well, I mean, eventually you became the president.

00:40:29.420 | Yeah.

00:40:29.740 | Of Send Network.

00:40:30.320 | That was 2015, 2018.

00:40:32.080 | So I was doing that for three years, this training kind of urban.

00:40:35.320 | Yeah.

00:40:35.860 | In 2018, the vice president stepped down and it was just like, you need to be the one to

00:40:40.580 | run it.

00:40:40.920 | Wow.

00:40:41.220 | And I was just like, whoa, you know?

00:40:43.960 | And so, so yeah, so I led it from 2018 to 2022.

00:40:48.620 | Yeah.

00:40:49.340 | So, so the Send Network, like maybe you describe what it is, its scale, its impact.

00:40:54.800 | I mean, when, when you were leading it.

00:40:56.600 | Yeah, so Send Network is the largest church planting organization in North America.

00:40:59.560 | Yeah.

00:41:00.000 | You know, and it is, you know, we were planting over 600 churches every, every year, you know,

00:41:08.260 | all across the country.

00:41:09.300 | Just to help people understand, like what's the, in terms of other church planting organizations,

00:41:13.300 | are they planting at that rate?

00:41:14.460 | Oh no, I think you can combine all the other church plantings in North America and we, Send

00:41:18.780 | Network would still be planting more.

00:41:20.160 | Wow.

00:41:20.500 | If you combine all the other networks together.

00:41:24.120 | And so it's, I mean, it's Southern Baptist, 45,000 churches putting the money in the pot

00:41:28.260 | for the purpose of mission.

00:41:29.360 | And so Kevin DeZero in 2010 basically put all the money and says, hey, we're going to be

00:41:33.660 | about church planting.

00:41:34.280 | So he takes this budget and puts it to the purpose of church planting.

00:41:37.420 | And so, so I was just like, yes, I want to do that.

00:41:40.500 | I want to help leverage that.

00:41:42.120 | And my whole thought was, I want to leverage it for the purpose of urban.

00:41:44.500 | Okay.

00:41:45.040 | Yeah.

00:41:45.380 | Right.

00:41:45.760 | And so again, my goal has never, has always been last generation to leave the urban context.

00:41:50.660 | And so 2018 through 2022, I was just like, I want to, that's what I'm doing.

00:41:53.920 | Yeah.

00:41:54.340 | Like, let's do it.

00:41:55.100 | And, you know, and so we kept on doing, and that was the one thing I never stopped plant,

00:41:59.700 | training urban church planters.

00:42:01.140 | Yeah.

00:42:01.400 | Even as a VP.

00:42:02.540 | That's awesome.

00:42:02.960 | Cause I mean, yeah, just looking, some people might not know, but the history of, of, of

00:42:07.440 | cities in the U S you know, it's, it's always been people moving out, you know, and, and social

00:42:12.980 | capital, everything like, like moving out of the cities.

00:42:15.920 | And that even includes discipleship and churches, right?

00:42:19.220 | Because how else are you going to fund your church?

00:42:21.000 | You know?

00:42:21.440 | Um, and so trying to put that, like bring the church back in.

00:42:24.840 | Um, I remember there was a moment, uh, when I was, as I planted in Philly and, um, we were

00:42:29.480 | getting like this, uh, tour, um, of all the Philly colleges and, um, uh, there was a pastor

00:42:35.420 | who was taking us around and he was talking about all that, like sort of the drain away

00:42:38.920 | from the cities.

00:42:39.540 | And one of my, uh, younger staff, uh, raised his hand and said, so like, what are people,

00:42:44.580 | like, what are people doing about this?

00:42:46.140 | How are we going to like bring discipleship and church back to the city?

00:42:49.940 | And the, the pastor looked at him and said, you, that's why you moved here.

00:42:55.900 | Right.

00:42:56.120 | And he was like, oh yeah.

00:42:58.220 | So, yeah.

00:42:59.020 | Um, but so, I mean, you're leading Send Network and it's this, this huge operation.

00:43:05.300 | I mean, you've got this amazing position, but then you left that post and was that a hard

00:43:11.160 | decision?

00:43:11.540 | Well, it wasn't hard.

00:43:13.160 | It was, I love what I was doing with Send Network, but it wasn't hard in the sense.

00:43:17.580 | Cause really, I just started asking the Lord, I was like, God, are you calling me to be Esther?

00:43:23.420 | Are you releasing me to be Paul?

00:43:25.000 | And I was just like, Lord, I will continue to maintain this position in order to leverage

00:43:29.940 | it for the, for the people that I care about.

00:43:31.960 | Cause again, we're playing all these churches, but honestly, like my heart is urban.

00:43:35.220 | And I was just like, man, praise the Lord for the cowboy church and the motorcycle church

00:43:39.520 | and all these other things.

00:43:40.580 | But I was just like, but God, that's not really like praise the Lord that the gospel is going.

00:43:45.180 | Yeah.

00:43:45.940 | But for me, it's about urban, right?

00:43:48.900 | And, and I just, and so I just went and I approached Catman and I was like, like, I just really feel

00:43:54.100 | like my call is for urban.

00:43:55.400 | I enjoy this.

00:43:56.920 | I love this.

00:43:57.540 | I love what we're doing and what we get to do.

00:43:59.700 | But like, I want to focus.

00:44:01.040 | I want to refocus an urban.

00:44:02.980 | And so in 2022, I stepped down, you know, and I was just like, Lord, I want to give the rest

00:44:08.380 | of my ministry life to focusing on urban, right?

00:44:11.580 | I don't know what in the, you know, bleep, bleep, bleep, I was thinking, cause I'm like the resources

00:44:17.080 | that I didn't have any of that, but I was just like, Lord, this is what I want to commit

00:44:21.980 | the rest of my life.

00:44:23.020 | And so, and I was just like, I, I, there was, I had passion.

00:44:27.160 | Yeah.

00:44:27.620 | I was, I was, I was just about to bring that up.

00:44:30.100 | Cause so passion is this word you used during the plenary and during your workshop.

00:44:35.600 | And when you, when you talked about passion, your definition really stood out to me.

00:44:40.080 | Um, I, a lot of people call me a passionate guy.

00:44:42.600 | Uh, and what they mean by that is I get a lot of people to jump up and down and I cry at a

00:44:46.320 | lot of things and whatever, you know, a lot of emotions, whatever, but you used a very

00:44:49.320 | different definition of passion.

00:44:50.780 | Could you just, yeah.

00:44:51.840 | Yeah, it really got it from Chip Dodd and Chip basically what he talked about passion is

00:44:56.360 | a willingness to endure the pain for something that's greater than the pain.

00:44:59.840 | Right.

00:45:00.640 | And I think that is something that we see in the passion of the Christ, the passion that like,

00:45:04.400 | I must, I must.

00:45:05.520 | And, and I think, you know, oftentimes think about like, why in the world does women want

00:45:11.680 | to continue to get pregnant?

00:45:12.760 | 10 months of labor, right?

00:45:15.760 | Like why?

00:45:16.540 | Because it's passion, right?

00:45:18.840 | They know there's something greater than the pain.

00:45:21.080 | Right.

00:45:21.820 | And I was just like, that was it.

00:45:23.940 | That was, it was this passion, like a willingness to endure pain for something that's greater.

00:45:27.520 | So it's not just being the loudest, most extroverted person in the room or the loudest person,

00:45:32.200 | but it's about people who are willing to endure pain and suffering for something that's

00:45:36.660 | greater.

00:45:37.060 | It's going through two a days so that I can, you know, go win a championship or go play.

00:45:42.420 | Like we endure pain for so many things.

00:45:45.300 | And I was just like, Lord, this is what I want to give my life.

00:45:48.320 | And so that's what we did.

00:45:49.380 | We stepped down and we started a ministry called My Boulevard.

00:45:53.160 | And so that's where, if you see the iteration, we're from rebuild to boulevard to my boulevard.

00:45:59.060 | And my boulevard is simply, it's urban missionaries making disciples where they live, work, and worship.

00:46:05.160 | We want to reject passivity and accept responsibly where we live, where we work and worship.

00:46:10.280 | And so the thought is, is like, we can't, as urban missionaries, people who are raised in

00:46:15.320 | urban, people who are come from urban, like, let's stop waiting for God to drop somebody else

00:46:19.260 | into our neighborhoods.

00:46:20.160 | Right.

00:46:21.060 | What does it look like for us to take responsibility?

00:46:23.580 | Right.

00:46:24.320 | Indigenous leaders, indigenous people who were born, who was raised, you know, in these environments

00:46:30.620 | to create, and I was just like, I want to spend the rest of my born again life, the rest of

00:46:35.820 | my life to, like, empowering these leaders to make disciples.

00:46:40.300 | Because there's a reason why people don't go to urban.

00:46:42.260 | There's a reason why people don't go.

00:46:44.280 | But here's the thing.

00:46:45.220 | It's the largest mission field in North America.

00:46:48.840 | Right.

00:46:49.720 | That there's more people living urban than living suburban and rural right now.

00:46:55.220 | Right.

00:46:55.960 | Here's the thing, that we see this idea, they say by the year 2050, right, I'll be 75

00:47:02.140 | years old in the year 2050.

00:47:03.940 | They say 90%, projected 90% of Americans will live in urban.

00:47:08.400 | Wow.

00:47:08.840 | But do you know that there's not one, there's not one seminary in North America where you

00:47:15.380 | can get a D miss or a D man or a PhD in urban missiology, right, in North America.

00:47:22.060 | But it's, you know, it's urban centers right now, they're already the top, if you look

00:47:26.920 | at the top 30, they're already majority minority.

00:47:29.500 | When you look at urban, what you see is that these are historically both blue.

00:47:34.420 | When you look at minority, they're at least evangelical, evangelized, all of these things.

00:47:39.040 | And it was just like, God, are you, did you somehow forget about the urban context in America?

00:47:45.120 | Like, why are we not discipling?

00:47:46.460 | Why are we not training?

00:47:47.340 | Why are we not raising up leaders for the urban context?

00:47:50.280 | And I was just like, I want to be a part of the solution of that.

00:47:53.560 | I want to spend my primary energy because what happens is that when I'm, when I was a part

00:47:57.920 | of a majority culture, and again, I love my time with them, but I had to spend most of my

00:48:02.520 | time on giving you an apologetic of why urban.

00:48:05.300 | And I was like, I couldn't spend the best of my time on how to make disciples in urban.

00:48:11.760 | Yeah.

00:48:12.120 | Right.

00:48:12.440 | And I was just like.

00:48:13.220 | You're trying to make the case.

00:48:13.760 | You're trying to make a case.

00:48:14.560 | You're just doing the work.

00:48:14.860 | You're just doing the work and the nuances of it.

00:48:16.780 | Yeah.

00:48:17.060 | And so I was just like, no, I want to spend my time focusing on the nuances of helping

00:48:20.460 | urban practitioners who are not trying to convince them, but to, to be missionaries in the context

00:48:27.120 | and to embrace this idea that you don't like, you don't have to be a missionary going overseas.

00:48:30.940 | Praise the Lord and let's keep on raising up and sending missionaries overseas.

00:48:34.440 | But what about us being missionaries where we live, where we work and where we worship

00:48:38.960 | and how can we do that in urban context and urban environments?

00:48:42.520 | And so that's really what it's about.

00:48:45.080 | And so my boulevard is a family of urban missionaries.

00:48:47.820 | And so when we talk about missionaries, we say missionaries are four types of missionaries.

00:48:52.520 | They're either poets.

00:48:53.740 | Yeah.

00:48:54.140 | Right.

00:48:55.000 | And these are people who use their arts.

00:48:56.860 | Yeah.

00:48:57.080 | So like my brother, Shobaraka, he is, he is one of our urban missionaries.

00:49:01.400 | He's like, he does things producing good culture and he has initiatives.

00:49:04.700 | Yeah.

00:49:05.060 | So that's one.

00:49:06.160 | And cities being that center of culture.

00:49:07.980 | Yeah.

00:49:08.220 | Center of culture.

00:49:09.020 | Sure.

00:49:09.240 | Pastors.

00:49:10.320 | And these are people who are people who, anybody who's utilizing the church as their primary

00:49:15.720 | vehicle to make disciples, right?

00:49:18.140 | Or to make an impact.

00:49:18.980 | We got practitioners and these are for-profit leaders, non-profit leaders, right?

00:49:23.260 | That are utilizing their, you know, platforms to make disciples.

00:49:26.640 | And then we have polymaths.

00:49:28.260 | These are multi-disciplined, multi-learned, multi-skilled people who are using.

00:49:32.060 | And so what we say is that as we're no longer just a church planting organization, we are a

00:49:37.240 | missions organization where we're bringing our missionaries together for the purpose of making

00:49:42.340 | an impact where they live, work, and worship.

00:49:44.060 | And so we're able to bring the artists together to talk to the pastors and the practitioners

00:49:47.980 | and talk to the polymaths and get them all in a room.

00:49:51.600 | So we did that.

00:49:52.920 | And so over the last couple of years, we just really commissioned our, yeah, commissioned 54.

00:50:00.080 | We have 54 missionaries now that are all across North America, all across America.

00:50:06.200 | And that's where, but they're all ministering in urban environments.

00:50:09.500 | Wow.

00:50:10.020 | And specifically majority minority spaces, because again, that's where we feel like the

00:50:14.700 | greatest, the greatest lack is.

00:50:17.840 | Because a lot of times when missions organization says, most of our people are non-Anglo, they're

00:50:22.120 | talking about reaching like a lot of times first gen immigrants.

00:50:26.580 | Yeah.

00:50:26.840 | Yeah.

00:50:27.400 | That, but who's reaching the second generation, third generation minorities, right?

00:50:32.380 | That are, that are in, that are English speaking.

00:50:34.360 | Yeah.

00:50:34.900 | And all that, that's the forgotten, you know, in a lot of this.

00:50:38.260 | And so it was like, we want to intentionally target that demographic, that group, you know,

00:50:42.920 | in terms of, you know, where we're trying to make the side goals.

00:50:45.680 | Yeah.

00:50:45.920 | And I mean, I could see the tie in terms of like even your upbringing, being that third

00:50:49.700 | part, third culture kid, you know, and sort of reaching, because I'm one of those, I'm

00:50:53.620 | one of those English speaking second generation.

00:50:55.580 | And even Pastor Ed kind of saw that there needed to be a spiritual leader for those people.

00:51:01.040 | And I think so much of our network's growth came from just, just that simple, like someone

00:51:05.240 | needs to lead those people, you know, and I'm just so thankful that that is.

00:51:08.820 | And so, I mean, the other aspect I'm seeing is, um, you talked about embracing the complexity

00:51:13.720 | of the city and, and realizing that you need all these types of people to reach the city

00:51:18.020 | because the city is so complex.

00:51:19.000 | There's so many challenges.

00:51:19.840 | It's going to take more than just like a pastor to do that.

00:51:22.940 | Right.

00:51:23.400 | And then finally, just like, you're seeing the trends of where, uh, society demographics

00:51:29.940 | are going.

00:51:30.520 | And instead of the church always falling behind that, trying to get ahead of it and trying

00:51:35.220 | to get us like arrange the chessboard, if you will, so that we can like play the game, you

00:51:39.440 | know?

00:51:39.620 | So, I mean, just on that note, and maybe we can, um, as we near the end of this conversation,

00:51:44.460 | um, what are, as you think about the future and how everything's going to become more urban

00:51:49.860 | and, and complex and majority, minority, all of that, what do you think are like the top

00:51:55.200 | three challenges to, for the church to like engage in discipleship in that context?

00:52:01.220 | I mean, I can think of a bunch, but you know, well, I would think the number one challenge

00:52:07.040 | is like, we're in a world, like, you know, a lot of times I think about like, there's

00:52:11.860 | modernity, right?

00:52:13.140 | Like my, you know, the idea of truth, right?

00:52:16.700 | A race for truth, who has the truth.

00:52:18.960 | And it was just like, if we can find and define what truth is, that was modernity.

00:52:23.280 | That led us to multiple world wars, right?

00:52:25.280 | Um, but then there was post-modernity, right?

00:52:28.380 | And it was kind of like my truth, your truth, relativism, right?

00:52:32.100 | And all that.

00:52:32.820 | But then now we're in a time where it's kind of this idea of, um, you know, again, it's

00:52:41.360 | kind of like, regardless of what, like this kind of anti-truth or CRT in a sense.

00:52:46.620 | And what I mean by that is, it's not just critical race theory, but it's critical theory, right?

00:52:52.540 | And so it's not just about like, if your truth disagrees with my truth, then you are an enemy,

00:52:58.380 | right?

00:52:59.520 | If your difference is like, and so we, we start as enemies.

00:53:03.140 | And I think the number one thing as missionaries, as we go into this next generation, we have to

00:53:06.980 | recapture the art of hospitality, right?

00:53:09.320 | And Henry Nouwen talks about hospitality as the space that you create to make an enemy

00:53:12.640 | a friend, right?

00:53:14.140 | And I think that that is something that we have to do.

00:53:16.700 | Because if I go out, if I just simply say, I'm a Bible believing Christian, you know what?

00:53:20.400 | Right now, if you say that, like, if you go on like the podcast, I'm a Bible believing

00:53:24.460 | Christian, they're going to say, well, you're a xenophobe, a homophobe, like, and they're

00:53:28.180 | already going to assign all of these phobes to you, you know, these labels to you, because

00:53:34.080 | you're thinking, so if, as soon as I say that, you make me an enemy, I have to recapture the

00:53:38.660 | art of hospitality, to allow you to go from an enemy to a sibling, right?

00:53:43.460 | And so I got to create space in order for that to take place.

00:53:46.700 | And I think as urban missionaries, we got to learn how to do that, is the recapture the

00:53:50.460 | art of hospitality, right?

00:53:52.120 | It's a biblical mandate, but, you know, it's something that oftentimes is lost.

00:53:55.500 | It's like, how do we welcome people, you know?

00:53:58.660 | So I think that that is one where it's just simply not like the person who's trying to

00:54:03.260 | scream the loudest, you know, or take the strongest stands or whatever, you know, it's just like,

00:54:07.980 | got to think like a missionary, right?

00:54:09.740 | We got to think of like a missionary, you know, and Paul says it in 1 Corinthians chapter 9,

00:54:12.900 | I become all things to all men so that I might save some, right?

00:54:16.800 | It's just like that concept of like not losing your identity, but being able to understand

00:54:22.740 | your identity in the place where you can still create space for other people to find out and

00:54:29.500 | to allow their identity to be formed, right?

00:54:32.760 | And giving them time to do that.

00:54:33.740 | So I think that that is, that's going to be critical, right?

00:54:37.740 | And I think, you know, one of the things that if you look at the history, that our times are

00:54:44.200 | very similar to the early, late 60s, early 70s, 68, right?

00:54:50.060 | You know, when you had the hippie movement and all that, and it was like, oh, we don't, you know,

00:54:55.060 | we don't like institutions and all the things, which we're like, we're going through that right now,

00:55:00.060 | the distrust of institutions and all of that.

00:55:02.720 | And then what happened, if you remember what came after that movement, as soon as that came,

00:55:08.820 | it got so wicked, the holiness movement came and that's with homeschooling and all of that.

00:55:14.500 | And I think what you're going to see is this pendulum swing because people were just like,

00:55:18.280 | all right, now y'all getting crazy out here.

00:55:19.860 | We're not talking about, we're talking about whether or not you're a dog.

00:55:23.460 | We're talking about whether or not, like it's crazy out in these streets nowadays.

00:55:26.860 | And now they're basically are like, people are just like, all right, this is enough.

00:55:31.580 | Yeah.

00:55:31.740 | Some people, it's rejection of that.

00:55:33.420 | And then now it's going to, and it's going to be like this strict holiness.

00:55:36.680 | And I think the church, we can't get tossed to and fro by every trick or win.

00:55:40.420 | We got to, you know, remember it's the truth of the gospel that we have good news.

00:55:44.380 | And so how do we speak truth with love?

00:55:48.060 | How do we, and think like a missionary.

00:55:50.000 | And so instead of arguing whether or not see a critical theory is a thing or not,

00:55:54.840 | why don't we just understand that is the day.

00:55:57.360 | No one was questioning whether or not, you know, whether or not relativism, right?

00:56:02.780 | Like that was the air that we were breathing.

00:56:05.640 | Your truth, my truth.

00:56:07.120 | And it was like, and so God raised the missionaries to try to engage in relativism.

00:56:12.320 | And I think it's the same way as like, let's not worrying about whether or not the validity of CT, critical theory.

00:56:17.920 | Let's just say, no, that's the day that we are in.

00:56:20.420 | Right.

00:56:21.220 | And so how do we raise a missionaries to win people, you know, in this time and in this, for such a time as this.

00:56:27.720 | And I think those are the types of things that God needs to raise a missionaries.

00:56:31.100 | And my prayer is that we would raise a missionaries because here's the thing.

00:56:34.740 | Our cities are already majority minority.

00:56:37.480 | Like we don't have to wait till the year 2045.

00:56:40.620 | Year 2045, America will become a majority minority country.

00:56:43.820 | The future is already here.

00:56:44.580 | Right.

00:56:44.800 | It's already here.

00:56:45.260 | Yeah.

00:56:45.540 | That future in cities is already here.

00:56:47.560 | And if you see, like even this past election, if you see what's taking place is that you have the cities vote blue.

00:56:54.220 | Yeah.

00:56:54.680 | And the suburbs are rural.

00:56:57.120 | Yeah.

00:56:57.420 | Vote red.

00:56:58.060 | Yeah.

00:56:58.540 | Right.

00:56:59.020 | And so there's this a completely different culture.

00:57:02.100 | It is like, well, does God care about the cities?

00:57:05.780 | Does God care about raising up missionaries for the cities?

00:57:08.500 | And I was just like, man, that's where I was raised.

00:57:11.400 | And I tell people, I'm like, I'm not suffering for the Lord by living in the city.

00:57:14.640 | Like, even if I was a nonbeliever, I would prefer to live in the city than live in the suburbs and rural areas.

00:57:20.100 | And I think that God needs to raise up missionaries, urban missionaries, people who are just like, no, this is this is my people.

00:57:25.920 | This is this is where I'm from.

00:57:27.800 | And God will continue to use both.

00:57:29.840 | And but this is what this is about.

00:57:32.140 | And so.

00:57:33.920 | That's why I would say, like, as we look into the future, we got to recapture the art of hospitality because people are lonely.

00:57:39.920 | They're desperate.

00:57:41.200 | They want community relationship.

00:57:42.980 | Right.

00:57:43.860 | We got to create spaces where people can belong and matter.

00:57:48.720 | Right.

00:57:49.500 | That's the two greatest needs that we all have is belonging and mattering.

00:57:53.140 | And in the gospel, we get both.

00:57:54.520 | Yeah.

00:57:54.880 | Right.

00:57:55.360 | That we are adopted into God's family.

00:57:57.840 | Yeah.

00:57:58.180 | And he's given us a commission to go and to be a part.

00:58:01.500 | And so we've got to stop arguing about the color of carpet.

00:58:03.980 | We've got to stop arguing about CT or not.

00:58:07.220 | We've got to stop arguing about the stuff that we're spending all of our time staying away from making disciples, doing what God has called us to do.

00:58:14.040 | And I think that that is is critical.

00:58:16.680 | So we have to keep the main thing, the main thing.

00:58:18.620 | Yeah.

00:58:19.560 | Wow.

00:58:20.600 | So just trying to keep the church like, you know, of course, we have to be holy, but we can't be a bubble.

00:58:25.740 | You know, we need to keep engaging the world.

00:58:27.680 | And I love that definition, just creating space where your enemy can become your friend.

00:58:32.240 | And yeah, just to just to end, I mean, I think you said so much that that resonates with our network and our ethos and our DNA.

00:58:41.560 | And, you know, man, just maybe even going back to the idea of passion.

00:58:45.820 | We have a our church is pretty young.

00:58:48.860 | Our network's pretty young.

00:58:49.620 | But then, you know, a lot of times we think of passion as just like emotional, you know, and just hearing your story.

00:58:56.100 | I mean, earlier you shared during the plenary and the workshop, you shared a lot of things that that you've gone through, you know, and there's I have to confess, like when I thought I was like, wow.

00:59:05.960 | Like, first, I thought, OK, that's the Heidi and Angie, you guys are the real deal, you know, and I also felt like y'all just built different, you know, like the kind of stuff you went through, you know, so maybe how do we it's going to it's going to be it's everything you painted is a very exciting vision.

00:59:20.820 | It's going to be a challenge for the church to step into it.

00:59:23.920 | And I get a feeling that if we're creating spaces for our enemies to become friends, it's going to call us into suffering.

00:59:28.900 | How can we grow in passion?

00:59:32.640 | How can we do that?

00:59:34.520 | And maybe that can be a parting word of encouragement to us as a network and as we try to disciple.

00:59:40.400 | Right. So I spent 20 plus years and I still do it today that I've beat my body up and I do a thing called weightlifting and working out.

00:59:48.800 | And I don't know. It's still to this day.

00:59:50.620 | Like, why do I do this to myself?

00:59:52.440 | You don't enjoy it.

00:59:53.600 | You know, I'm not.

00:59:54.600 | No, I'm not one of those people.

00:59:55.780 | I enjoy working out.

00:59:57.380 | I do it because I need to stay in shape.

00:59:59.480 | I need to.

01:00:00.200 | But here's the thing.

01:00:01.780 | I intentionally put myself in it and I stay in it because I know the benefits of it.

01:00:05.840 | But the reason why I'm able to stay in it is because I never do it alone.

01:00:11.440 | And I would say part of my encouragement is that, like, if you want to see other eagles, you can't just go outside and look at birds.

01:00:23.940 | Right.

01:00:24.340 | Like eagles, you have to take sacrifice to go see where eagles are.

01:00:29.220 | And I think that's the same thing is that if you you need to find and be around other passionate people and when you have people who are sold out, it's not about giftings.

01:00:36.320 | It's not about all of the things.

01:00:38.440 | It's about people who just who are willing to endure pain for something that's greater than the pain.

01:00:42.200 | People who are willing to suffer for something that for something that's more important.

01:00:46.600 | And so I would say, like, get around other people that are passionate.

01:00:50.460 | You know, and what I love about it is in Exodus chapter 17, God told Moses, he says, go on top of that hill.

01:00:58.020 | And I want you to take a staff with you.

01:00:59.980 | And when you lift up the staff above your arms, right, the people of Israel, they'll be winning the war.

01:01:06.500 | Your people, they'll win the war.

01:01:07.860 | But as soon as that staff comes down, you lose the war.

01:01:11.520 | If you look at that, God gave Moses an impossible task.

01:01:15.720 | Because if you think about it, wars don't happen over, like, three minutes.

01:01:21.140 | Wars can take hours.

01:01:23.060 | It can take days.

01:01:24.340 | Right?

01:01:24.940 | And just think about it.

01:01:25.660 | And not only did he give them an impossible task, he gave them something that with life or death consequences.

01:01:30.160 | So, like, every time his hands came down, when you're losing the war, it's not like losing a football game.

01:01:35.600 | That means somebody's dying.

01:01:36.720 | Yeah.

01:01:37.140 | So think about that type of weight, that type of pressure, that I'm going into this to do something that I know I can't do.

01:01:44.280 | And then that has life or death consequences.

01:01:47.220 | That when my hands come down, you're like, I may lose a loved one.

01:01:53.440 | Yeah.

01:01:53.780 | I'm losing loved ones.

01:01:55.140 | What Moses does, I think, is a beautiful picture of the gospel and being able to remain impassioned even in the midst of hard times and suffering.

01:02:02.960 | What Moses does is that in Acts chapter 17, the first thing he does is that he sits on the rock.

01:02:08.060 | And I believe that that's a picture of our salvation, that we sit on the rock of Christ.

01:02:12.400 | Upon this rock, I will build my church.

01:02:14.020 | Right.

01:02:14.620 | He sits and he rests.

01:02:15.960 | And it's like we rest in Jesus.

01:02:17.680 | But then what the other thing that happens in that passage is that he brought up her and Joshua.

01:02:23.340 | And so when he had his arms up, when he became weak, her on one side, Joshua on the other, they lifted his arms up.

01:02:33.680 | And I think he was able to endure even in the midst and able to accomplish something he could not do on his own.

01:02:41.320 | Right.

01:02:42.080 | And I think that as we're going into these mission fields and as we're going into, there's going to be times like God has given us an impossible task for us to do.

01:02:51.920 | Wow.

01:02:52.420 | But it has life or death consequences.

01:02:54.260 | Eternity is at stake.

01:02:56.180 | Yeah.

01:02:56.560 | You know, and so we have to find our ways.

01:02:58.880 | How do we rest in Jesus and the person and work of his salvation, rest in him through the power of his Holy Spirit?

01:03:05.500 | And how do we bring our errands and our Joshuaers that is on the right and on the left that's holding us up?

01:03:11.860 | So when we become weak, they're our strength.

01:03:14.060 | And I think that that's what I just want to encourage us.

01:03:16.740 | Right.

01:03:17.120 | Because of the task that you guys are on, the task that we are on, if you are on mission for God, it's going to get, not if you're going to get fatigued, you're going to get tired.

01:03:24.240 | So learn natural rest, natural times of sabbaticaling and resting, but also like trust in Jesus and have your hers and your Joshuas that lift you up when you're weak.

01:03:35.660 | Yeah.

01:03:36.160 | Wow.

01:03:36.660 | That's so good.

01:03:37.840 | And so Acts 2 Network, rest in Jesus.

01:03:40.980 | And we don't have to be awesome.

01:03:43.600 | We just need to be together and suffer through it together.

01:03:46.620 | And I think we can do that.

01:03:49.140 | Yeah, I think we can do that.

01:03:50.320 | And just thank you so much again for that word.

01:03:52.940 | Thank you so much for your time.

01:03:54.180 | Thank you for your encouragement and support of our network.

01:03:57.280 | I think we're just so, I just feel so humbled and privileged.

01:04:01.500 | I feel like I'm interviewing a real hero of faith.

01:04:03.960 | So thank you.

01:04:05.280 | Thank you so much, really.

01:04:06.340 | And yeah, we'll end the conversation there.

01:04:08.640 | Again, thanks for your time.

01:04:09.640 | And yeah, like, subscribe, tune into future episodes.

01:04:12.940 | And again, thank you so much.

01:04:14.120 | Amen.

01:04:14.540 | Thank you.

01:04:15.260 | Thank you.

Ep.13 - What is Discipleship? | Featuring Dhati Lewis

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