E22: Reflecting on the Robinhood situation with Bestie Guestie Vlad Tenev

00:00:00.000 | Now wait, Vlad, you have to turn your camera off and then I'm going to do my little bit where the

00:00:04.280 | bestie guestie door knocks. Oh no, Jason. No? Let's not do that. This is silly. This is silly.

00:00:09.560 | Here we go. I can do it. It's very easy for me. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. These

00:00:13.300 | guys don't want to do it. They don't like my, they don't like my bits. Three, two.

00:00:18.260 | Let your winners ride. Rain Man, David Sass.

00:00:26.620 | Hey everybody. Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of the All In Podcast with us again,

00:00:44.120 | the queen of quinoa himself, David Friedberg, the Rain Man. Definitely counting cards. Yeah.

00:00:52.140 | Burn baby. David Sacks is with us. Chamath Palihapiti.

00:00:56.560 | The dictator. By the way, by the way, go ahead, J. Cal.

00:01:02.160 | I'm J. Cal, aka Baby Seal. J. Cal, could you take longer with the intros? I mean,

00:01:08.560 | this is like, this is like your one moment to shine is the intros. It's like fucking torture.

00:01:12.160 | I know. I like to do a little branding here. I'm branding you guys as characters on the show.

00:01:16.760 | I do want to, I do want to give a big shout out and congratulations for

00:01:20.800 | David Friedberg, wetting his beak in a big way. The story, by the way,

00:01:26.280 | we should have done a little bit of a talk about David Friedberg. I'm going to do a little bit of

00:01:26.540 | a talk about David Friedberg. I'm going to do a little bit of a talk about David Friedberg. We should

00:01:26.620 | actually have founder, crazy founder stories, and we should have Friedberg tell the story of

00:01:33.020 | Metro Mile, but it closed its SPAC transaction and went public and it's doing great. And congratulations.

00:01:39.420 | Thank you. Thanks guys.

00:01:40.300 | A little golf clap. I'll give it a little golf clap.

00:01:41.100 | Thanks for the support, Chamath. Yeah, thank you. Thank you.

00:01:43.500 | Very nice. And joining us this week as our second bestie guestie after a triumphant performance

00:01:51.740 | by Draymond Green on the last All In Podcast is Vlad.

00:01:56.520 | And we're going to have Vlad Tenev, who is the co-founder and CEO of a new startup we wanted to

00:02:03.640 | introduce everybody to. It's called Robinhood. Vlad, tell everybody what is Robinhood and what's

00:02:09.640 | the mission of this new startup you've got? Thank you for having me, having me here

00:02:15.960 | hanging with you guys. Robinhood's mission is to democratize finance for all. It's somewhat new.

00:02:21.640 | We've been around for a little bit over five years and we have a mobile

00:02:26.500 | app and a website that allows customers to invest in stocks, options, cryptocurrencies.

00:02:33.240 | We offer a debit card and a high yield savings product as well. Commission free and with no

00:02:38.320 | account minimums. Vlad, I think you've done an amazing job building this company and you guys

00:02:42.600 | have done an amazing job democratizing access to the ability to trade. Can we fast, let's fast

00:02:49.840 | forward to the issue that, I mean, this we discussed, I guess, a few pods ago because there

00:02:55.520 | was intense interest in the idea of a new startup. And I think that's a really good point.

00:02:56.480 | I think it's our highest rated pod ever was discussing the GameStop issue. So you had these

00:03:02.220 | traders from Wall Street Bets, these Redditors who, like you said, they perceive themselves as

00:03:07.140 | the heirs to occupy Wall Street. They're trading for profit, also for revenge. And then you guys,

00:03:15.220 | I guess, get a call in the middle of the night from the clearing house and you have to freeze

00:03:19.580 | the buy side of the trade the next day. I guess let's fast forward to that because that was the

00:03:24.500 | thing that, you know, got everybody up and running. Yeah.

00:03:26.460 | So, you know, you guys are a very open arms. Could you, I guess, talk to us about kind of what

00:03:29.880 | happened? And I'm sure you didn't want to have to freeze trading, right? But you were being compelled

00:03:36.300 | by this clearing house. Can you kind of explain what they told you and why you had to do it? And

00:03:43.080 | why not just ask them to give you the order in writing so you can post it on your website so

00:03:48.000 | everybody would know you didn't have a choice? Is that something you could have done?

00:03:52.200 | Well, I think the challenge was that, no doubt,

00:03:56.440 | we could have communicated this a little bit better to customers, right? By the time we

00:04:04.440 | restricted these securities to PCO and it was 13 securities that we limited to sell only,

00:04:11.560 | that process is actually operationalized within Robinhood. So we do it from time to time under

00:04:19.400 | various circumstances like corporate actions. So when something has a reverse stock split or

00:04:25.240 | something like that, we can do it from time to time. And then we can do it from time to time.

00:04:26.420 | And then we can do it from time to time. And then we can do it from time to time. And then we can

00:04:26.580 | PCO it for a little bit. So there's a button in a dashboard that you can click and automated

00:04:32.260 | emails get sent out. So it's an operational process that I think in hindsight, we probably

00:04:38.820 | should have exceptionalized to make it clearer why we were doing this, just given all the swirl

00:04:45.780 | around all these meme stocks online. But as soon as those emails went out, the conspiracy theories

00:04:53.220 | immediately started coming out. And so we had to do a lot of work to get the data out. And then we

00:04:56.400 | had to do a lot of work to get the data out. And then we had to do a lot of work to get the data out.

00:04:56.460 | So my phone was blowing up with, you know, how could you do this? How could you be on the side

00:05:00.980 | of the hedge funds? And of course, we're not on the side of the hedge funds. I mean, we're,

00:05:05.420 | we're building products for our customers. And we just had to do what we did to meet our deposit

00:05:11.440 | requirements. Because if we didn't do that, we would be in violation. And the consequences of

00:05:17.340 | that could have been much, much worse than simply halting buying in the 13 stocks.

00:05:22.400 | I think that's where, you know, when you were on CNBC with Sorkin,

00:05:26.380 | people either thought you were obfuscating or you were lying. You know, and part of it is sort of

00:05:33.220 | the guts of your business is that at some point as well, you guys decided to self clear, right?

00:05:39.340 | And then going into self clearing, you become liable for every single trade that happens on

00:05:43.840 | your platform. Like, if you look back on those two weeks, what self clearing means, it means that,

00:05:51.380 | you know, typically, you can work with a wholesaler to offload the risk. So Vlad acts as a

00:05:56.100 | transaction. And then you have to go back and look at the other side of the coin. And then you

00:05:56.360 | have to go back and look at the other side of the coin. And then you have to go back and look at the

00:05:56.380 | transaction layer and as a UI, and somebody else is responsible. At some point, these guys for

00:06:01.140 | economic reasons decided to take that responsibility on themselves. But when you do that, you take on

00:06:06.720 | the full fledged liability of the value of every single trade on behalf of your customers.

00:06:11.280 | Yeah, I would think about it, I would explain it as there's like pre trade,

00:06:16.020 | right, then the trade and then post trade. So Robinhood obviously does pre trade with

00:06:22.460 | that's the app and what's called the introducing broker dealer.

00:06:26.340 | Yeah, so we do the trade. So we route it to, you know, all the firms like Citadel Execution

00:06:31.920 | Services to Sigma, and then Robinhood securities does the post trade the clearance and settlement.

00:06:37.360 | So we manage the exchange of cash and stocks that happens on t plus two, so two days after

00:06:44.280 | after the trade is made.

00:06:45.520 | So what was not I mean, if you had to give that answer again, when Sorkin said,

00:06:51.560 | you have a liquidity issue? Was the answer? Yes, we have a liquidity issue.

00:06:56.320 | And here's why? Or is it still the same answer? It wasn't?

00:06:59.120 | So I stand by what I said, and I'll explain it. And thank you, by the way, for giving me a chance

00:07:04.740 | to explain it. First of all, restricting securities, restricting the buying of securities

00:07:11.740 | is something that every pretty much every broker did to some degree during this week, right. So

00:07:18.680 | when you say the L word and financial services, it reminds you of Lehman Brothers, where you

00:07:26.300 | operate your business, we met all of our deposit requirements, the new capital that we raised the

00:07:31.640 | 3.4 billion wasn't to meet our our ongoing deposit requirements, we had met them. And in order to

00:07:38.120 | relax them and eventually unrestrict them, we needed to raise some more capital and eventually

00:07:43.880 | have more cushion so that if we keep seeing the type of growth that we kept seeing, we didn't

00:07:49.800 | have to impose position limits again. So I stand by what I said, I think if you describe that as you

00:07:56.280 | said, the L word, every pretty much every broker would have had that issue. And I think at that

00:08:01.080 | point, the word kind of loses its meaning and the the gotcha factor that the journalists are trying

00:08:06.960 | to get out of it. Do you think that the risk in the business went up when you decided to self clear

00:08:12.900 | or would this risk have been the same if you work through a wholesaler?

00:08:15.900 | Well, I think a lot of the a lot of the other brokers who relied on clearing firms had the same

00:08:22.800 | issue, right? You know, there's there's firms like Apex,

00:08:26.260 | clearing, which has introducing brokers, cash app, for example, clears through a third party as well.

00:08:33.560 | And they all had this issue. And of course, their response was, they kind of threw their clearing

00:08:40.680 | firm under the bus, right? So obviously, we're not going to do that, because our clearing firm

00:08:45.360 | is Robinhood Securities. But I think understanding the space a little bit better, since Robinhood

00:08:52.080 | Securities is, you know, a subsidiary of my company. And I think that's a big part of the

00:08:56.240 | business. And I think that's a big part of the business. And I think that's a big part of the

00:08:56.720 | I realized these clearing firms had to do what what they did, like, there's no, it's non negotiable

00:09:03.480 | to meet your deposit requirements. Of course, we can ask, what can we do? Are these deposit

00:09:09.400 | requirements sensical? What can we do to drive change in the system? And I think that's my,

00:09:14.840 | what's that? Who sets those requirements? That's the clearinghouse, right? Is that the DTCC?

00:09:20.360 | Yeah, it's the DTCC. And a lot of this stuff is actually spelled out in Dodd Frank. So if you look

00:09:26.220 | at Dodd Frank, you'll see descriptions of the VAR charge and the various special charges there.

00:09:31.640 | But I do think one thing that I'm very excited about is, you know, not going beyond just talking

00:09:39.860 | about our problems, right? We can, I've talked about our problems a lot, but talking about

00:09:44.740 | solutions and how we can create a better financial system in the future. And I really think if you,

00:09:49.840 | if you understand the underbelly of what T plus two settlement is, you immediately ask yourself,

00:09:56.200 | aren't we settling trades in real time? And I wrote a post on that. I had a tweet storm.

00:10:01.360 | I'd also say, you know, some of the feedback that I've gotten is, you know, here's Vlad from

00:10:06.120 | Robinhood telling us about, you know, trying to change T plus two so that he can meet,

00:10:10.200 | he can lower his deposit requirements. I think there's lots of other systemic issues that fall

00:10:15.380 | out of that. In particular, right now you can short sell more stock than the shares that are

00:10:21.320 | outstanding, right? So, you know, some of these stocks had 140% short interest,

00:10:26.180 | right? So more, more shares were shorted than actually outstanding. And I just think that's

00:10:32.120 | pathological. And it stems from the fact that, you know, these shares are tracked on pieces of

00:10:37.540 | paper. So they're basically not tracked and someone can, you can, I can lend you my shares.

00:10:44.320 | You can short them. The person that's buying them from you can lend them again. And you can do that

00:10:49.260 | multiple times and you end up with this situation that could destabilize the financial markets,

00:10:54.820 | right? So.

00:10:56.160 | What, okay. So T plus, moving from T plus two to T plus zero, that's one issue. Where do you think

00:11:03.300 | margin?

00:11:04.280 | Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. Where is your margin?

00:11:07.100 | What's your thoughts on margin?

00:11:08.760 | Yeah.

00:11:09.380 | Well, so margin wasn't involved in this particular situation. In fact,

00:11:15.420 | there was an escalation path. Not a lot of people noticed until Thursday, but

00:11:20.100 | pretty much all the brokers, including Robinhood were ratcheting up the margin requirements

00:11:26.140 | for all of these securities until they got to a hundred percent. So by the beginning of the week,

00:11:32.760 | they were pretty much all at a hundred percent, which means you can't use margin to buy them.

00:11:36.860 | You have to, you have to have them a hundred percent covered. So do you guys have a more

00:11:42.720 | specific question on margin? Well, I meant more like, I meant more like, so for example,

00:11:46.920 | I think it's true, but you tell me if this is not true. You guys paid like a $65 million fine to the

00:11:56.120 | Robinhood, right? And

00:11:57.940 | It's not, not exactly true, but go ahead.

00:12:00.120 | Okay. Do you want to, do you want to just tell us what the truth is?

00:12:04.500 | Yeah. Well, so the, the fine wasn't for gamifying Robinhood. It was for payment for order flow and

00:12:13.100 | business model related, related things. The gamification one is the Massachusetts securities,

00:12:21.420 | securities one, which is a separate thing. And look on the SEC thing,

00:12:26.100 | we're a fast growing company. We obviously scaled a lot between the period in question.

00:12:32.600 | Obviously the, the securities and exchange commission felt like we could have done things

00:12:41.140 | better. And, and I own that. I think that we're fine being held to higher standards. We have to

00:12:46.040 | hold ourselves to higher standards. And what we can do is just do some of the things we've done,

00:12:52.080 | staff up our compliance team, staff up our legal team. We brought on,

00:12:56.080 | a new chief legal officer who is a former SEC commissioner, two new chief compliance officers

00:13:01.200 | for Robinhood securities and financial who had decades of experience and the level to which we're

00:13:07.760 | investing in compliance. I mean, the goal is to build the finest legal and compliance team that

00:13:12.480 | the financial industry has seen. Let me tie it back flat to what, to what we were talking about

00:13:17.040 | before. So do you think that it's okay if we're trying to build a generation of investors to give

00:13:25.280 | them access to margin as easily as some apps, including Robinhood does, and then separately

00:13:32.640 | allows them to trade highly transactional high vol instruments like options on top of that with

00:13:40.640 | margin? What do you think about that? Just as a general philosophy, forget business building for

00:13:44.720 | a second. Well, and then also, can you say what the margin you allow is for a new account? Because

00:13:49.440 | I don't think people understand what that is. Maybe a little definition there.

00:13:51.840 | Well, there's a couple of things I want to clear up. Number one, you can't trade off

00:13:55.260 | options on margin. So options are all fully paid for, right? Margin is not suitable for everyone.

00:14:02.280 | I'll admit that you have to understand it. And you also have to be a Robinhood Gold customer,

00:14:08.520 | which means you have to sign up and pay $5 a month. Most brokers don't gate margin behind

00:14:14.600 | a premium offering. So we're already a little bit more restrictive on that front. You have to have

00:14:20.680 | $2,000 in your account before you can borrow. And you have to have a little bit more money in your

00:14:25.240 | account. And in December, we did lower our margin rates to 2.5%, which is a very competitive low

00:14:31.580 | rate. But let me tell you a use case for margin that I actually think is quite powerful. So

00:14:36.940 | obviously, one use case is kind of the typical one of buying more stock with your money.

00:14:42.360 | But if you build a large portfolio, you can actually use margin as a line of credit. And we

00:14:48.740 | offer this feature with our debit card. You can turn on what's called margin spending. And what

00:14:54.240 | that means is if you're buying a large portfolio, you can actually use margin as a line of credit.

00:14:55.220 | If you invest in your portfolio, you can borrow collateralized by your portfolio at a very low

00:15:02.020 | rate, which is one tenth of what you would borrow through a credit card. So I actually think it's a

00:15:07.560 | powerful tool. Certainly, customers have to understand it and be suitable for it. But

00:15:12.860 | it unlocks a type of borrowing, not just for buying stocks, but for meeting your daily

00:15:20.200 | purchasing needs that I think is very useful. If somebody puts $2,000,

00:15:25.200 | $3,000 in blood, can they trade $4,000 $6,000 $8,000? And does it matter what equities they're

00:15:31.240 | holding? How does it work? Yeah, the actual calculations are there, there's no blanket

00:15:38.640 | formula I can give you because it does depend on the securities that you buy. So the example I gave

00:15:44.900 | was, for example, GME and some of these other meme stocks, we raise the requirement on those to 100%.

00:15:50.580 | So those have to be fully paid for. Other stocks,

00:15:55.180 | have an initial requirement as low as 25%. If it's one that you know, is deemed by the operational

00:16:02.680 | staff and our processes is not being super volatile. And it can it can go in between. So

00:16:08.680 | 25% initial requirement all the way up to trade four times your money if it's a really blue chip

00:16:15.160 | secure stock. More or less, yeah, with some nuance around that,

00:16:21.280 | you know, time and again, Vlad, there's studies that show that it's really difficult

00:16:25.160 | to beat the market and make money, you know, trading in an efficient market. Like the market

00:16:31.280 | we have for stocks, or options or what have you, there's a lot of players, there's a lot of

00:16:35.420 | liquidity, there's a lot of people with information. It's, you know, these great fund managers over

00:16:40.140 | time underperform just the S&P, right. And, you know, I think I mentioned this when we had that

00:16:46.760 | pot a few ago that I was involved in a forex trading company and 60% of accounts eventually

00:16:52.320 | ran out of money. Can you share with us what percentage of money you're making? And what percentage

00:16:55.140 | of Robinhood accounts run out of money? And, and, you know, do we mask generally, and I'm not

00:17:02.360 | accusing Robinhood specifically of this, but do we mask the idea of investing in businesses?

00:17:08.240 | As you know, a way of kind of highlight of a way of hiding that people are really just using this

00:17:14.840 | to trade in and out, and try and make money in the short term. And ultimately, the majority of

00:17:20.280 | them end up losing most of their money because the fees and the spread and the margin or whatever it

00:17:24.360 | is that they're like,

00:17:25.120 | that kind of adds up, you know, wipes out the account. That's what I saw this forex company I was involved in. Can you share with us, you know, in a very candid way, like how many accounts do eventually go bankrupt at Robinhood? And how much of that do you really see?

00:17:37.480 | First of all, I'd say forex is a little bit different, because the leverage you get in forex is like orders of magnitude.

00:17:43.560 | Yeah, I'll admit to that it was like 10 to 50 to one leverage. So you're totally right. Yes.

00:17:48.100 | Yeah. So I do think the businesses are a little bit different. Most of our customers don't use leverage. Most of our customers aren't active traders or trading options. And if you look at some of the features that we've rolled out, the theme of this year has been how do you turn a first time investor into a long term investor. So fractional shares, recurring investments, drip. These tools allow someone to create a diversified portfolio of individual stocks and

00:18:18.080 | recurringly buy into them over time.

00:18:20.200 | So is that the majority of users today or the minority? You know, how many accounts do you see kind of cycle down to zero over what period of time?

00:18:30.420 | I think a very small percentage of accounts have that have that property. I mean, I think if you look back in 2020, we had a huge increase in growth and interest in investing right at the bottom of the market crash in March. Right.

00:18:48.060 | And I think people have taken advantage of that. And our customers in general have benefited from the recovery very, very significantly. So I wouldn't I would reject the the meme that, you know, Robin Hood customers are active traders that are just, you know, churning their accounts and losing all their money. That's, that's just simply not what we're seeing.

00:19:10.560 | I know Saks has a question. But one question I had with the conspiracy there is that I would just love to hear like a yes, no to.

00:19:18.040 | Sure.

00:19:18.540 | Did Citadel call you and say stop this madness because they had exposure through one of their hedge funds with GameStop? And did Sequoia call you and say, Hey, stop this madness?

00:19:28.060 | Or Joe Biden, you forgot you forgot the White House one? No, no, this was a formulaic decision made by Robin Hood securities due to

00:19:37.980 | So Citadel didn't call and ask? Sequoia didn't call and ask?

00:19:41.420 | No.

00:19:42.220 | Did the SEC call you and say this has to stop?

00:19:44.780 | No.

00:19:45.960 | But the clearinghouse did, right?

00:19:48.020 | Yeah, well, they called and they said, here are the deposit requirements. And we worked with them to lower the risk so that we could meet the deposit requirement.

00:19:56.060 | Got it. And so just let me pick up on that. So at the same time that was happening. And I know this wasn't Robin Hood, this is not your company. But, but Discord and Reddit were receiving reports that the Wall Street Bets forum was engaged in hate speech, and there was an organized effort to get them censored and taken down. And Discord basically fell for it.

00:20:18.000 | And took down Wall Street Bets. Reddit, to their credit, did not. Do you have a take on, you know, what happened there? And, I mean, I assume you don't think Wall Street Bets was engaged in hate speech?

00:20:30.480 | Well, so that happened Wednesday, I believe. And yeah, we were watching it. It was first, it was like, oh, wow, Discord, Discord shut down. And then I think Wall Street Bets went dark on Reddit for a little bit as well. But I'm not quite sure of that.

00:20:47.980 | I think it's just the reasoning behind that. Look, I mean, I disavow hate speech, misinformation. I'm not, you know, judging which of the posts are hate speech or not. I think that's the social media companies that should take a look at that.

00:21:04.780 | The mods, I think the mods closed down Reddit for like a little bit and then turned it back on.

00:21:09.700 | Yeah.

00:21:10.640 | Yeah, I mean, a lot of these things get triggered if 10 people reported at the same time. It just, it sets off a circuit breaker.

00:21:17.960 | Yeah, it seems to me that, and certainly this is, if you want to call it a conspiracy theory, it seemed like you had this Wall Street Bets group. They were on one side of the trade. You had these Wall Street hedge funds that are on the other side of the trade.

00:21:28.940 | And there was an effort to weaponize the speech rules of Reddit and Discord to cut off the lines of communication of Wall Street Bets. Because the only way that Wall Street Bets, as a decentralized group of millions of traders, can stick together and compete with these hedge funds is if they can communicate with each other by these services.

00:21:47.060 | And so,

00:21:47.940 | Yeah, I think that's the social media companies that should take a look at that.

00:22:17.920 | Yeah, I think that's the social media companies that should take a look at that.

00:22:47.900 | Yeah, I think that's the social media companies that should take a look at that.

00:23:17.880 | Yeah, I think that's the social media companies that should take a look at that.

00:23:47.860 | Yeah, I think that's the social media companies that should take a look at that.

00:24:17.840 | Yeah, I think that's the social media companies that should take a look at that.

00:24:47.820 | Yeah, I think that's the social media companies that should take a look at that.

00:25:17.800 | Yeah, I think that's the social media companies that should take a look at that.

00:25:47.780 | Yeah, I think that's the social media companies that should take a look at that.

00:26:17.760 | Yeah, I think that's the social media companies that should take a look at that.

00:26:47.740 | the third thing I'd put is just, maybe you guys have seen, you

00:26:51.520 | know, I feel like I've evolved as the chief executive, and as a

00:26:55.960 | leader, I didn't used to be on social media telling our story

00:26:59.360 | very much. But I'm out there trying to encourage more

00:27:02.940 | transparency. I would say

00:27:03.900 | much better today than with ilan, much better with ilan than

00:27:07.660 | sorkin. So progress has been made. I have just a basic

00:27:10.860 | question. I know we got a rap soon when things get

00:27:13.180 | superheated. And you have this viral momentum where, I don't

00:27:16.740 | know how many people tried to sign up on that day. But maybe

00:27:19.740 | you could give us an idea on that Wednesday or Thursday, was

00:27:21.780 | it, you know, five figures, six figures or seven figures worth

00:27:24.940 | of new accounts? Why not throttle the new accounts and

00:27:27.840 | say, Hey, we're you're on the waitlist, we on board 10,000

00:27:31.960 | people a day, your day is going to be next Thursday, so that you

00:27:35.640 | don't get caught in this. You know, everybody uses the fact

00:27:39.240 | that it's friction free to sign up to do an emotional bat in a,

00:27:43.620 | you know, let's call it mob behavior, right? Like,

00:27:46.380 | this turned into a mob. And I guess some people believe it's a

00:27:49.700 | good mob to go up against the hedge funds. But it could have

00:27:52.820 | equally been something, you know, something more deranged,

00:27:56.900 | and even more edge case is going to happen. So when that does

00:28:00.100 | happen, and a million or 10 million people sign up, can't

00:28:03.540 | you just pause it and say, we're not going to do any new accounts

00:28:05.620 | today, we've reached our limit.

00:28:07.140 | We actually did do that. So we have been pausing new account

00:28:10.740 | approvals off and on, depending on on the load. And, you know,

00:28:15.620 | customers have been doing that for a long time. And they've been

00:28:16.260 | doing that for a long time. And they've been doing that for a long time. And they've been

00:28:16.360 | experiencing in some cases, short delays with account

00:28:20.660 | approvals, obviously not an ideal solution from our

00:28:23.760 | standpoint. But, you know, if we have to do that, we will do it

00:28:27.580 | and we have done it.

00:28:28.540 | How many people signed up on that Wednesday, like just

00:28:31.220 | ballpark? Like, was it hundreds of 1000s? millions? Jason, are

00:28:34.100 | we are we running an ad for Robin Hood? Stop? No, I'm just

00:28:36.820 | glad. None of us cares. None of us cares. Last last question.

00:28:40.580 | Hit me. Hey, listen, if you had to pick two different CEOs

00:28:44.540 | reactions to how you dealt with it,

00:28:46.240 | let's say Tim Cook on one end of the spectrum and Zuck on the

00:28:48.940 | other. How do you think they would score what Robin Hood did

00:28:52.480 | and what they are doing? Tim Zuckerberg?

00:28:57.040 | You know, I'm not sure. I think that I think I'm proud of, of

00:29:06.400 | how the firm navigated this. I think, obviously, there's ways

00:29:10.300 | to improve upon it. I think that, you know, anytime you get a phone

00:29:15.800 | call in the morning, you're like, Oh, I'm not sure. I'm not

00:29:16.120 | middle of the night saying you have to put up three billion dollars all sorts of things

00:29:20.200 | run through your head right i've had it happen i know

00:29:22.600 | that was just money from the cage for poker i got a lot of people reaching out to me um which

00:29:32.600 | was amazing if you have to do it over again why not just post a blog that morning saying hey we

00:29:38.200 | got a call in the middle of the night we have to do this is that is is that the thing you'd do over

00:29:43.480 | again no because he'd be throwing his own company under the bus he'd have to say robin hood

00:29:48.760 | securities is telling robin hood the broker to post this money because robin hood securities

00:29:53.160 | is being told by their downstream clearing so it's like you're you're you're in it you're in

00:29:57.720 | a day you're saying you're saying it now so better to say it uh at the time it all happened and it

00:30:03.000 | would have diffused the whole crisis right well first of all i'm not throwing anyone under the bus

00:30:06.840 | we we did the team did what they had to do um i don't think there was any way to navigate that

00:30:11.960 | differently i think the auto

00:30:13.400 | um automated emails that went out to customers saying uh your stocks are you're restricted from

00:30:21.320 | buying these stocks probably could have been handled a little bit better we probably could have

00:30:25.960 | offered more detail into that uh with the foresight that maybe customers would think that

00:30:31.320 | a hedge fund uh forced us to do it or something like that um so certainly um certainly there's

00:30:38.200 | areas we can improve upon across the board and when an early investor called me throughout this

00:30:43.320 | and said hey chin up you know navigating a crisis successfully unlocks the next level of value

00:30:49.000 | creation for the company and um i've had that in mind uh the entire time and i'm just doing what i

00:30:55.240 | can to to make that future a reality both for robin hood and for the financial system i think that

00:31:00.600 | this could lead to some really positive change industry-wide yeah and i'll just just one last

00:31:06.280 | softball here that's not about what happened uh that with gamestop uh we've had a debate on this

00:31:12.520 | pod it got kind of a little bit of a mess but i think it's a good thing that we're able to do it

00:31:13.240 | kind of heated between uh chamath and jason about the nature of jason's investment in robin hood

00:31:19.000 | uh can you tell us can you tell us your side of the story of what happened at antonio's nut house

00:31:24.920 | okay and how much how much stumbling was involved precisely okay i'm i'm very glad you brought this

00:31:30.200 | up because i've been meaning to call jason out on it he has this great story of uh how you know

00:31:36.200 | we met at antonio's nut house and he wrote a check i think the the real story is that uh on

00:31:43.160 | oh on robin hood launch day um which was a saturday and um we violated every rule of pr

00:31:52.440 | and marketing by launching inadvertently on a saturday i got a reach out from uh from launch

00:31:58.280 | who who was one of the first uh one of the first outlets to cover our launch on saturday and uh

00:32:05.320 | jason's uh jason's friend uh simon ex-employee who uh ended up running social for us for a bit um

00:32:13.080 | was a big fan of robin hood so um he joined us as kind of our first social person

00:32:19.160 | he introduced me to jason i met jason at sequoia jason where you agreed to invest and then six

00:32:27.080 | months later we met at antonio's nut house when we were raising our series a and i think you uh

00:32:32.760 | you gave me the advice to to go with index ventures no i know i said sequoia all the way

00:32:38.600 | don't give me trouble i'm team sequoia i i promise michael moritz

00:32:43.000 | i'm team sequoia i'm team jackson i'm team jackson i'm team jackson i'm team jackson i'm team jackson

00:32:44.280 | i'm team jackson i'm team jackson i'm team jackson i'm team jackson i'm team jackson i'm team jackson

00:32:45.320 | sequoia was great they they unfortunately passed on our series a as as did a lot of other funds

00:32:50.920 | yeah all right listen uh thanks for coming on the pod uh we really appreciate you taking the time

00:32:56.360 | and continued success and um but i'm really glad we didn't give you a job offer back in 2008 sounds

00:33:02.600 | like uh it was the right move for you funny how things worked out yeah apparently i interviewed

00:33:07.400 | him in 2008 for a job and he didn't get the job it was you and alex alex michalka

00:33:12.920 | was my main interviewer but um it's funny i graduated with a math degree right i was

00:33:20.280 | i was doing pure math which in 2008 made me unemployable we were the only people hiring

00:33:26.440 | at that point yeah yeah you were the only people that would interview me yeah everyone else was

00:33:31.800 | like where's your computer science degree can you code so i ended up going to math grad school which

00:33:37.240 | was one of the few options that i had and ended up dropping out and and here i am so funny how

00:33:42.840 | things work well good for you all right continued success and thanks for coming on the pod we'll see

00:33:46.840 | you soon thanks thanks for having me wait vlad's back wait vlad's back sorry i i i thought i was

00:33:56.920 | supposed to leave i didn't know if you guys well you you could stay i was saying you can stay i

00:34:00.680 | was saying after a year of jason asking us to run ads he's found a way of trying to make this

00:34:07.960 | a 45-minute infomercial for robin absolutely i listen i'm ride or die vlad you know that

00:34:12.760 | i'm right or die with my founders and i don't need it we're just trying to keep uh keep everything up

00:34:18.440 | and let all the people safely in who have been banging on our door how how much have you been

00:34:24.040 | sleeping vlad have you been able to sleep i mean this has got to be exhausting uh oh my god really

00:34:30.520 | can you ask him something like at least semi challenging honestly that's not why you guys

00:34:37.000 | are here if you're walking down the road and a robin hood customer this is a tough one i'm sorry

00:34:42.680 | thought you were over this but you logged yourself back in so and a robin hood customer that lost all

00:34:47.160 | this money when they got locked out of trading that day comes up to you and screams and cries

00:34:51.960 | i lost all my money what do you say to him you know i got completely destroyed my life savings

00:34:58.360 | is wiped out i mean i've read a bunch of these comments on different boards and so on like what

00:35:02.040 | do you say because i i know that's a tough one to swallow and i know that you know we've heard the

00:35:06.920 | the story around what happened but but what do you say to that person well first of all i'd be very

00:35:12.600 | very empathetic um i'd probably want to understand how someone could lose money

00:35:17.560 | um when they couldn't buy a stock at the all-time high so i think the details around that i mean if

00:35:25.080 | you look back uh and obviously this had nothing to do with the decision right but thursday was

00:35:30.440 | the all-time high yeah yeah but that's but the reason for that is because the ability of wall

00:35:36.680 | street bets to continue the trade was was basically interrupted right they were they were engaged in a

00:35:42.520 | short squeeze against these big hedge funds and in order for this to keep driving the squeeze up

00:35:47.720 | and up and up they needed it basically to to be able to buy and then once they got frozen out of

00:35:52.440 | all the online broker accounts not just you guys but all of them that was that that that broke the

00:35:57.800 | trade right maybe that's what i mean that's what i thought hypothetically but that's what they're

00:36:03.480 | so but that's what they were so upset about is because they got they got locked out of the buy

00:36:08.360 | side of the trade they weren't locked out of the sell side right they got locked out of the buy side

00:36:12.440 | and that allowed the the big hedge funds 24 hours to regroup and uncover the trade the price went

00:36:19.480 | down and that basically cracked the whole thing right well i'm not sure about the uh the exact

00:36:25.480 | details there on the on the hedge fund side or what happened look what i can say is uh we're

00:36:31.160 | gonna do our best to uh make sure that we get better and we serve our customers uh whenever

00:36:37.960 | whenever they want to buy stocks and we'll do that and we're going to get better and better

00:36:42.360 | and better every day and the truth is if you had had the money in the bank account to for dtcc to be

00:36:47.960 | compliant you would have been like you weren't trying i mean you're in the business of letting

00:36:52.600 | people try without question yeah yeah you make nothing if people stop trading you need people

00:36:58.840 | to trade it's the core of the business right yeah this wasn't you know a value judgment or some kind

00:37:04.600 | of uh moral stance and we weren't pressured into doing it by anything other than our

00:37:09.480 | regulatory deposit requirements

00:37:12.280 | what do you think is the future of payment for order flow and revenue sharing on um

00:37:18.680 | sort of like the the ways in which like meaning how much do you think of that payment for order

00:37:23.960 | flow revenue should you share with customers yeah that's a good question i mean this is all highly

00:37:30.280 | regulated and uh it's it's become the industry standard business model

00:37:35.080 | right um so i'm not sure we're we're excited to have a conversation about it um i do think

00:37:42.520 | exchanges are here to stay market making is here to stay market making is a profitable enterprise

00:37:49.080 | and so some level of revenue share between the market maker and uh and the broker makes sense

00:37:54.840 | and uh it is regulated um so i'm not quite sure what if any changes need to come but

00:38:01.720 | hopefully this will be part of the conversation that that we can we can help create and uh and

00:38:07.400 | work through and do you i think part of the problem is just the opacity of it you know

00:38:12.120 | it's it's kind of like interchange does anyone know that interchange is this sort of like hidden

00:38:18.440 | piece of revenue every time you transact with a debit card or a credit card it's it's sort of

00:38:23.560 | analogous in a way right well i think i think more people do just because the technology companies

00:38:28.920 | that have come around like you know stripe and others will eventually just try to take it to zero

00:38:33.880 | um and so if anything i think what the the business model

00:38:38.280 | or at least the business strategy of all these companies is when you find two

00:38:42.040 | different ways to do it and you're able to do it in a way that's more

00:38:46.040 | uh you know more efficient and more efficient than the other way around

00:38:49.320 | so i think that's a really good point and i think that's a really good point to your point these

00:38:53.400 | opaque pools of revenue um the innovation is just to give consumers power by taking these costs to

00:38:59.480 | zero if you've lad decided tomorrow to do um robin hood pro you know higher level than gold and

00:39:08.760 | charge 50 bucks a month for 50 trades and then five dollars each trade after that would solve

00:39:11.960 | it so if you have a lot of money and you're able to do that in a way that's more efficient and more

00:39:15.480 | efficient than the other way around i think that's a really good point to make and i think that's a

00:39:19.640 | really good point to make and i think that's a really good point to make so i think that's a really

00:39:21.560 | good point to make and i think that's a really good point to make so i think that's a really good point to make

00:39:23.320 | so i think that's a really good point to make and i think that's a really good point to make so i think

00:39:24.040 | moreover it allows um smaller investors to participate so certainly i think

00:39:30.280 | that model would work but the the consequence would be smaller investors would uh yeah right

00:39:37.800 | if the option is there it'd be like facebook saying we have an option for you to pay enough

00:39:41.880 | see ads and be tracked right it would just be great option what do you think is the difference

00:39:47.560 | between investing and trading and what do you think has to happen so that you know back to

00:39:53.000 | where you started if you want people to close the inequality gap how do you allow them to do it

00:39:57.960 | trading versus investing well i think the difference between trading and investing

00:40:04.520 | investing is a little bit more about accumulation so typically you're buying more stock and building

00:40:11.800 | up positions over time um trading comes into play um i think when when you're selling right when

00:40:19.560 | you're selling sort of strategically and um uh you're doing it not driven by outside needs for

00:40:28.440 | the for the capital but more for uh for sort of like uh intrinsic needs um so i think the

00:40:36.040 | question is would we would we ever prevent people from selling ideally not

00:40:41.720 | i mean people have various needs that uh that they could have for getting out of positions

00:40:47.160 | and i think as a platform we have to allow for that awesome uh your pr people are literally

00:40:54.920 | gonna come freaking out breaking your glass in your house your peer person is literally running

00:41:00.280 | from hq she's gonna be start banging on the back window you cannot be on this pod uh no great job

00:41:07.240 | vlad um and uh remember use the order code bestie and get

00:41:11.640 | your first free month

00:41:17.320 | well thanks for having me gentlemen all right thanks man great job take care thanks thanks

00:41:22.120 | thanks for answering our questions yeah thank you for coming you're gonna log back in in two minutes

00:41:25.800 | right yeah okay come back for the chess of buden and gavin do some recall news your pr people will

00:41:32.680 | be delighted if you comment on that yeah are we gonna do a debrief the debrief from my opinion is

00:41:41.560 | that uh you know i i think that i think that we're gonna do a debrief on the last three questions because

00:41:45.640 | i think that we're gonna do a debrief on the last three questions because i think that we're gonna do

00:41:47.960 | a debrief on the last three questions because i think that we're gonna do a debrief on the last three

00:41:50.040 | questions because i think that we're gonna do a debrief on the last three questions um i think that

00:41:51.880 | there have they have to really tighten two things one is they need to make a decision how do they

00:41:57.000 | want to make money um because i think this is the third time these issues have come up it's probably

00:42:02.680 | not going to be the last and because there's going to be more market volatility not less and so you

00:42:07.800 | just got to decide how you want to make money because there is no amount of money that's

00:42:11.480 | going to be in the market and so you know i think that's the first thing that we're going to do is

00:42:15.320 | we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:42:17.960 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then

00:42:20.120 | we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:42:22.440 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then

00:42:25.320 | we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:42:27.800 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then

00:42:32.040 | we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:42:34.200 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then

00:42:36.120 | we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:42:38.040 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then

00:42:40.200 | we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:42:42.440 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then

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00:42:46.920 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then

00:42:49.080 | we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:42:51.240 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then

00:42:53.960 | we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

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00:43:00.120 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on the last three questions and then

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00:46:45.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:46:47.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:46:49.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:46:51.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:46:53.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:46:55.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:46:57.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:46:59.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:01.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:03.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:05.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:07.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:09.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:11.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:13.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:15.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:17.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:19.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:21.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:25.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:27.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:29.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:31.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:33.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:35.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:37.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:39.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:41.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:43.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:45.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:47.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:49.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:51.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:53.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:55.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:57.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:47:59.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:01.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:03.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:05.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:07.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:09.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:11.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:13.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:15.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:17.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:19.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:21.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:23.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:25.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:27.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:29.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:31.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:33.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:35.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:37.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:39.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:41.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:43.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:45.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:47.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:49.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:51.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:53.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:55.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:57.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:48:59.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:01.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:03.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:05.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:07.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:09.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:11.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:13.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:15.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:17.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:19.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:21.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:23.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:25.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:27.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:29.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:31.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:33.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

00:49:35.720 | the last three questions and then we're going to do a debrief on

E22: Reflecting on the Robinhood situation with Bestie Guestie Vlad Tenev

Chapters