Roger Gracie: Greatest Jiu Jitsu Competitor of All Time

00:00:00.000 | In my mind, I have to tap everybody else.

00:00:02.980 | Winning is not enough.

00:00:04.260 | - The following is a conversation with Hodger Gracie,

00:00:10.100 | widely considered to be the greatest

00:00:12.480 | jiu-jitsu competitor of all time.

00:00:15.400 | This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.

00:00:17.360 | To support it, please check out our sponsors

00:00:19.440 | in the description.

00:00:20.680 | And now, dear friends, here's Hodger Gracie.

00:00:24.300 | Let's start with possibly the greatest match

00:00:27.600 | in jiu-jitsu history, your second match

00:00:29.600 | against Buchecha.

00:00:30.960 | Let's go through the details.

00:00:32.320 | Let's go through the whole thing.

00:00:33.620 | So the walk leading up to it.

00:00:35.920 | You always do this walk, this epic walk.

00:00:38.160 | You post that on Instagram.

00:00:39.740 | Hanzo posted on Instagram this calm walk

00:00:43.840 | towards the mat.

00:00:44.920 | Well, let's go to that match in particular.

00:00:47.480 | What was going through your mind?

00:00:48.460 | You've been away from competition,

00:00:49.820 | facing probably one of the greatest,

00:00:52.500 | and at that time, many people considered

00:00:54.560 | the greatest jiu-jitsu competitor of all time in Buchecha.

00:00:59.040 | Here's the old man, the old timer,

00:01:01.040 | getting back out there.

00:01:02.480 | What were you thinking?

00:01:03.760 | - Yeah, I think that's the first time

00:01:06.840 | since probably I got my black belt

00:01:08.640 | that I wasn't the favorite to walk into a fight,

00:01:10.720 | I have to say.

00:01:11.840 | Like a lot of people thought,

00:01:13.320 | consider him the favorite.

00:01:14.640 | I mean, understandable.

00:01:18.360 | You know, I was out of competition for a while.

00:01:20.000 | He was just winning everything.

00:01:21.760 | So, you know, you're saying about the walk,

00:01:25.160 | like for me, you know, the fight starts way before

00:01:29.120 | the referee say go, you know.

00:01:31.000 | It's all the focus and concentration

00:01:34.160 | that I think is very important for me to start before.

00:01:37.320 | Like, you know, I almost walk blind to the mat.

00:01:41.440 | Many times I pass, like great friends,

00:01:43.400 | and I couldn't see anyone.

00:01:44.920 | You know, they're trying to talk to you,

00:01:46.120 | and I'm like, I'm 100% focused on my opponent already,

00:01:50.000 | even though that I cannot even see him in front of me.

00:01:52.560 | So I think that's for me was always very important

00:01:55.240 | to try to clear my mind out from everything.

00:01:59.760 | - Are you visualizing the opponent,

00:02:01.200 | or are you just clearing?

00:02:02.040 | - Not at that time.

00:02:03.640 | - Right, is there, what's in your head?

00:02:05.560 | Is it like a calm river with birds chirping?

00:02:07.840 | - It's blank, just blank.

00:02:10.840 | - Darkness.

00:02:11.680 | - Yeah, darkness.

00:02:12.600 | - Okay, and that's what we see in that calmness,

00:02:15.160 | is just blankness.

00:02:16.040 | How hard is it to achieve that blankness?

00:02:18.240 | - It's difficult to say because I think I don't remember

00:02:22.520 | when I'll say probably as a black belt,

00:02:25.600 | I try to focus like that, not to think,

00:02:28.880 | because it's probably something you learn,

00:02:32.200 | is the more you think, the more nervous you get.

00:02:35.080 | And there's nothing that you're gonna gain

00:02:37.240 | by thinking of the fight or the possibilities,

00:02:39.600 | what you can do, what can go wrong, what can go right,

00:02:42.680 | because it's unpredictable.

00:02:44.640 | You have absolutely no idea.

00:02:46.560 | It's impossible to predict the fight.

00:02:49.080 | - And you discover that if you just let those nerves

00:02:52.360 | and those feelings go and empty your mind,

00:02:54.520 | it actually is pretty effective.

00:02:55.840 | - It is, it makes you feel better.

00:02:57.800 | It's, you know, you kind of control your emotion,

00:03:00.280 | control the adrenaline on your body up to a level.

00:03:03.360 | So it absolutely helps you focus in the fight.

00:03:07.440 | - I've learned that in jiu-jitsu and in general in life,

00:03:11.040 | that whenever something feels really shitty,

00:03:13.800 | you can just like take that thought and not think about it.

00:03:17.200 | Like I do that on long runs or like a fast run or,

00:03:20.440 | yeah, in jiu-jitsu, especially when I'm getting older,

00:03:22.760 | out of shape, like that feeling of exhaustion,

00:03:25.280 | well, you can always get to the feeling of exhaustion.

00:03:27.400 | You can just not think about it,

00:03:29.880 | not think about being exhausted.

00:03:32.080 | Just, and that somehow relaxes you.

00:03:34.360 | I think maybe in the face of exhaustion,

00:03:36.560 | all the fears start to creep in,

00:03:38.360 | maybe your muscles tighten up.

00:03:39.680 | I don't know.

00:03:40.520 | This is for the amateur jiu-jitsu person.

00:03:44.400 | But it's kind of funny how you can just take that thought

00:03:49.040 | and let go of it.

00:03:50.040 | So you get, as a black belt competitor,

00:03:51.800 | you get used to, you get good at letting go of any thoughts.

00:03:55.440 | - Yeah.

00:03:56.280 | When you mentioned to exhaustion is,

00:03:58.160 | I mean, that's another good example of it.

00:04:00.440 | It's, you know, there's a lot of times in the fight,

00:04:03.040 | you're getting tired and you're getting pretty tired.

00:04:06.320 | So it's like the last thing you want to think of it

00:04:09.040 | is how tired you are.

00:04:10.520 | It doesn't matter because it doesn't.

00:04:13.280 | What are you going to do, quit?

00:04:14.880 | I mean, it doesn't matter.

00:04:16.560 | It's how tired you are.

00:04:17.840 | It's-

00:04:18.680 | - Yeah, there's no value thinking about it.

00:04:19.520 | - There's no value.

00:04:20.360 | You just have to go through it.

00:04:21.760 | - So when you're like, you know, many minutes into the match

00:04:25.720 | and you're slowly moving, as you sometimes do,

00:04:29.240 | tying your belt, catching your breath,

00:04:30.640 | you're not thinking about anything.

00:04:31.640 | You're trying to let go of thinking.

00:04:33.880 | - I'm trying to like to save everything to the fight.

00:04:38.840 | Like nothing goes to waste.

00:04:41.240 | It's, you know, every move unnecessary,

00:04:44.400 | it's just going to make you more tired

00:04:46.760 | or it's going to take something out of you.

00:04:48.600 | Like, you know, I try to calculate every single move I make,

00:04:52.480 | save as much energy as I can,

00:04:54.600 | so I can fully, you know, be focused 100% in the fight

00:04:58.960 | with no waste, especially energy-wise.

00:05:01.120 | - And that's instinctual, like minimizing the amount of moves.

00:05:05.600 | You're not like explicitly thinking,

00:05:08.240 | should I do this or not?

00:05:09.200 | It's just, don't move unless it's absolutely required.

00:05:13.480 | - Yeah, because fight, you cannot really,

00:05:16.840 | there's not really time to think much, you know?

00:05:18.840 | So it's just, your instincts are playing.

00:05:20.840 | It's like, it's, you know, you already have your,

00:05:24.200 | you know, your weapons, let's say, you know,

00:05:26.320 | the things that you do,

00:05:27.880 | it's just to wait for the perfect moment.

00:05:31.480 | The beauty of it is, you know,

00:05:32.960 | there's the right moment to everything.

00:05:34.720 | If you feel one second too late, doesn't work,

00:05:37.560 | or you get messy.

00:05:38.480 | So it's, you know, you're trying to catch that moment.

00:05:41.440 | That's, you know, and for that,

00:05:44.040 | you have to be fully focused in what you're doing

00:05:46.560 | because one second, you're out, it won't work.

00:05:50.000 | - But you're not exactly known as somebody

00:05:52.160 | that moves super quickly.

00:05:54.120 | So the moment, it's not about how quickly you move,

00:05:59.120 | it's about the right moment.

00:06:01.880 | So you move slowly. - The right moment, yeah.

00:06:03.880 | Yeah, it's not like, speed,

00:06:07.560 | it's not like you have to move at the speed of light.

00:06:10.200 | It's the move itself or the precise moment.

00:06:13.200 | It doesn't have to be super fast

00:06:15.080 | because your opponent's not moving super fast, you know.

00:06:17.880 | So it's a combination of moving between you and him.

00:06:21.760 | - I mean, the same thing happens in judo

00:06:24.080 | and the movement can be really small.

00:06:25.600 | - Yeah.

00:06:26.440 | - It's just--

00:06:27.280 | - Judo is a bit more explosive, you know,

00:06:29.680 | it's just the moves are slightly faster.

00:06:32.400 | So it does require a bit more explosiveness in judo.

00:06:36.480 | - But even just the right timing for an off balance.

00:06:39.960 | - Yeah.

00:06:40.840 | - Just a little tough. - Yeah, yeah.

00:06:42.560 | - It's not that, you know, moving,

00:06:44.560 | the speed is not gonna count that much.

00:06:46.720 | - Yeah.

00:06:47.560 | - It's the timing that you initiate that move.

00:06:49.480 | - You see that with foot sweeps.

00:06:50.680 | There's nothing more beautiful than like

00:06:52.880 | a Olympic level athlete going at it in the Olympics

00:06:56.840 | and a perfect foot sweep. - Somebody whoosh.

00:06:58.960 | - And it's just, and you see one man's life

00:07:02.600 | flash before his eyes and realize,

00:07:04.720 | like I'm supposed to be the top three person in the world,

00:07:07.960 | that I just find, they have this look on their face,

00:07:10.600 | like, I don't know what just happened.

00:07:12.400 | It's beautiful to see.

00:07:13.240 | You don't see that, I guess you see that in boxing,

00:07:15.640 | knockouts and stuff like that.

00:07:17.000 | You don't know what the hell just happened.

00:07:18.440 | - Yeah, it's that precise moment of movement

00:07:22.500 | that you get caught.

00:07:23.480 | Like it's that one split second, that's it.

00:07:27.880 | - Do you get that in jiu-jitsu at all?

00:07:29.200 | 'Cause judo has, because of the explosiveness,

00:07:32.680 | because of the point scoring system,

00:07:34.840 | that incentivizes these giant throws,

00:07:37.280 | has these moments where everything

00:07:40.120 | just turns in a single moment.

00:07:41.640 | Do you have that in jiu-jitsu too?

00:07:42.640 | - Not really, because then it's points.

00:07:45.080 | Yes, you get like two points.

00:07:47.480 | So it's, because I think regarding the submission,

00:07:51.720 | it's not just one precise movement that changes everything.

00:07:55.840 | I think judo is the takedown that counts as a submission,

00:07:59.720 | like Ippon, fight over.

00:08:01.320 | Jiu-jitsu don't have that.

00:08:03.160 | So you will score points,

00:08:05.280 | but I think in terms of submission,

00:08:07.880 | you need to get to a dominant position first,

00:08:12.680 | and then the submission will come slowly.

00:08:15.000 | - It's a process.

00:08:15.840 | - Yeah.

00:08:17.000 | - Okay, let's go back to that guy with his mind.

00:08:19.680 | So actually in the weeks leading up to it,

00:08:21.840 | in the days, in the hours, in the minutes,

00:08:24.680 | is there some fear in you leading up to this?

00:08:29.220 | - I mean, I'm not gonna say that I'm fearless,

00:08:33.320 | because everybody fears something.

00:08:37.000 | The fear is there, but it's like,

00:08:38.360 | how much you let that control you.

00:08:40.120 | I think I was a lot more confident than fearful,

00:08:43.080 | for sure, walking into that fight.

00:08:45.640 | Like I was pretty confident that I could beat him.

00:08:49.800 | - What was the source of that confidence?

00:08:52.640 | - My beliefs on me.

00:08:54.640 | - Yes, okay.

00:08:55.560 | - I can take the world.

00:08:57.280 | - Not, you can take anyone in the world,

00:08:59.360 | but is there a specific strategic,

00:09:02.680 | like, you know, talking to Donahair,

00:09:05.680 | he believes that there's no such thing as confidence,

00:09:08.840 | or rather, the way you get confidence is through data,

00:09:12.700 | like that you have proven yourself effective

00:09:16.880 | in previous situations, but with Buchecha,

00:09:20.620 | you don't have much data.

00:09:23.720 | It was a very, the first time you faced him

00:09:25.480 | was a very tough, that was also one of the greatest matches

00:09:28.960 | of all time, it was very tough.

00:09:31.080 | So doesn't that creep in, like that doubt,

00:09:33.520 | because you don't have enough data

00:09:34.960 | to be confident based on that?

00:09:36.840 | - Yeah, I mean, okay, if I never have fought before,

00:09:44.320 | you know, suddenly walk into a fight with someone like that,

00:09:47.720 | then would I be that confident?

00:09:49.720 | I mean, probably no.

00:09:51.800 | You know, so that history of what, you know,

00:09:54.280 | what we've been doing, what we've been achieving

00:09:55.920 | does gives you confidence.

00:09:57.560 | If that was my first fight ever,

00:09:59.960 | I wouldn't, probably I wouldn't be that confident.

00:10:02.120 | - But the time off?

00:10:03.400 | - It doesn't matter.

00:10:05.520 | - Doesn't matter.

00:10:07.040 | - Doesn't matter.

00:10:07.880 | - You don't have the fear or the actual physical experience,

00:10:11.080 | the psychological experience of being rusty,

00:10:13.760 | of being out of the competition.

00:10:14.600 | - That will come on training.

00:10:16.140 | - So you, okay, so you simulate some aspect of that

00:10:19.400 | in the training.

00:10:20.240 | - Yeah, I mean, the training will tell you how you are.

00:10:22.840 | - Okay, did you increase the intensity of the training

00:10:25.840 | leading up to this?

00:10:27.040 | - Yeah, I mean, I train normal.

00:10:29.340 | Let's say compared to the first fight,

00:10:31.280 | the second was a lot more confidence

00:10:32.960 | because, you know, like I say on training,

00:10:35.120 | the training for the first fight, it was terrible.

00:10:38.400 | - So what do you mean?

00:10:41.640 | - I think I was focusing on MMA for a while,

00:10:44.720 | for a couple of months,

00:10:45.560 | and I wasn't really focusing the gi,

00:10:47.040 | and, you know, by the time I accept the fight

00:10:48.760 | and start training,

00:10:50.560 | like all my responses on training were off.

00:10:53.400 | Like all my training partners that I used to train with

00:10:56.320 | that I destroyed.

00:10:58.000 | I mean, now they're like, they're beating me.

00:11:00.800 | You know, it's like I cannot beat them

00:11:02.200 | the way I was used to.

00:11:04.960 | But, you know, so I knew something was not right

00:11:08.200 | for the first fight.

00:11:09.880 | But then it's, you know, no points,

00:11:12.640 | it's submission or draw.

00:11:14.720 | - So, yeah, for people who don't know,

00:11:16.040 | it was in Matamoros, which is a 20 minute match,

00:11:18.800 | submission only, so there's no,

00:11:20.560 | the winner is determined only by submission,

00:11:22.120 | otherwise it's a draw.

00:11:23.560 | - So physically I wasn't myself on that fight.

00:11:27.280 | I was tired, my body wasn't responding.

00:11:30.500 | Anyway, so the confidence was different

00:11:33.080 | from the first, the second.

00:11:34.120 | I think I was confident enough

00:11:35.960 | that I wouldn't get tapped out on the first,

00:11:38.200 | that I was still gonna fight,

00:11:39.880 | because he has to tap me out to beat me.

00:11:42.360 | And I trust on my defense.

00:11:44.160 | I'm confident enough on my defense

00:11:45.720 | that he will not tap me out.

00:11:47.720 | But in terms of winning, you know,

00:11:51.440 | walking to the second fight,

00:11:53.240 | I was a lot more confident.

00:11:55.880 | - What can you say about that feeling

00:11:57.160 | when something's not right?

00:11:58.920 | Isn't that a thing that breaks people?

00:12:00.240 | - It breaks, it's weird.

00:12:01.960 | Like people crack, they give up.

00:12:03.840 | You know, it's a big test,

00:12:07.280 | because it's like being really tired.

00:12:10.640 | It's the same thing.

00:12:11.640 | It's like a lot of people crack

00:12:13.100 | because they just feel they cannot give in more.

00:12:15.800 | They have nothing more to give.

00:12:17.920 | So they just like give up.

00:12:19.720 | It's too hard.

00:12:21.000 | - So what do you do?

00:12:21.840 | Just again, take the thoughts out?

00:12:23.860 | - There's no giving up.

00:12:25.660 | I mean, I don't care.

00:12:28.700 | Like just giving up is not an option.

00:12:31.440 | It's not.

00:12:32.280 | - That's always the way you thought of all jiu-jitsu?

00:12:35.140 | - Yeah.

00:12:35.980 | I've never gave up.

00:12:37.480 | I mean, I tapped.

00:12:38.600 | It's, you know, not giving up is not tapping.

00:12:41.440 | That's just stupid.

00:12:43.300 | Especially, you know, doing training.

00:12:44.880 | Like it's, I get caught, I tap.

00:12:46.480 | I've never, ever hurt myself by not tapping.

00:12:51.080 | I get, you get angry, you know,

00:12:52.600 | it's train hard, you know, improve,

00:12:54.880 | make yourself better.

00:12:56.520 | You'll go caught.

00:12:57.360 | Except that you made a mistake, give up, tap,

00:13:01.200 | then try harder.

00:13:02.640 | So, you know, the not tapping,

00:13:04.860 | it's you're sacrificing your body and, you know,

00:13:08.120 | you will never be the same.

00:13:09.280 | Like if you let your elbow popped,

00:13:11.200 | the elbow will never, ever be the same, ever.

00:13:13.880 | You let yourself go to sleep, your resistance drops.

00:13:17.500 | So it's, everybody has a limit of resistance until they,

00:13:21.520 | you know, to resist a choke before you pass out.

00:13:25.100 | The moment that you go to sleep,

00:13:28.400 | that resistance will drop.

00:13:30.540 | - I've never heard anyone say, "Oh, that's awesome."

00:13:33.000 | So that's true.

00:13:33.840 | So tap, so that's the reason,

00:13:35.360 | 'cause people usually say it's, you can--

00:13:37.000 | - No, it's the same way you're getting knocked out.

00:13:39.520 | You get knocked out the first time,

00:13:41.200 | your resistance dropped, your jaw gets weaker.

00:13:44.280 | So-- - Just for the record,

00:13:45.400 | I've never gone to sleep again.

00:13:46.960 | (laughing)

00:13:48.120 | Which means my resistance is high, right?

00:13:50.440 | I don't know. - Yeah, must be.

00:13:51.720 | Oh, your defense is pretty good.

00:13:53.160 | (laughing)

00:13:54.000 | - I don't know about that.

00:13:55.400 | Because it doesn't make sense to me,

00:13:59.360 | or maybe, in my case, I think my understanding

00:14:03.360 | of when I'm screwed is pretty good.

00:14:06.400 | - Yeah. - Like, there's no--

00:14:07.960 | - You know you're in trouble.

00:14:08.920 | - Yeah.

00:14:09.760 | One of the things I regret the most

00:14:12.120 | about my jiu-jitsu journey is not having given enough time

00:14:16.560 | to being in really bad positions.

00:14:20.560 | Like, the better I got, I think the less I started

00:14:23.520 | being in bad positions, which is terrible.

00:14:25.800 | - Because you spar.

00:14:27.320 | That's like, that is how you train.

00:14:29.400 | - Yeah.

00:14:30.240 | - Because you used to just spar.

00:14:32.520 | When you spar, like, it's difficult

00:14:34.240 | to be in bad positions a lot.

00:14:36.880 | You train with better people, but, I mean,

00:14:39.440 | let's say five, six minute rows,

00:14:41.640 | how long you gonna be in a really bad position?

00:14:43.520 | Not long, right?

00:14:44.360 | So you don't really have time to develop.

00:14:46.920 | That's why people, they don't, you know,

00:14:50.240 | they don't train being bad positions,

00:14:52.160 | 'cause you have to start there over and over again

00:14:55.080 | to be used to it.

00:14:57.440 | - Yeah, or put yourself there.

00:14:58.560 | I just didn't have that mindset, I think.

00:15:00.720 | I think you start, I mean, part of the fun of jiu-jitsu

00:15:03.560 | is as you get better and better,

00:15:05.080 | you have certain people you go with,

00:15:06.440 | you have these puzzles that you've figured out

00:15:08.320 | that you're playing very specific details,

00:15:11.160 | you're working out, you're trying to improve your main,

00:15:14.680 | like, techniques and so on.

00:15:16.120 | But yeah, just the percentage of time you spend

00:15:18.480 | being submitted or being, or trying,

00:15:20.760 | even going against lower ranks,

00:15:23.040 | trying to escape basic submissions is low.

00:15:25.400 | I don't know if that's true for most people.

00:15:27.400 | Probably is, right?

00:15:28.520 | - Most people have very bad defense.

00:15:30.160 | - Yeah.

00:15:31.000 | - Because they don't allow themselves to be there,

00:15:32.400 | because, I mean, who wants to get tapped?

00:15:35.560 | Because you will, until you, you know,

00:15:38.160 | to work on your defense, of course you're gonna get tapped,

00:15:41.200 | or, you know, you're not gonna escape,

00:15:42.560 | you're gonna struggle to escape.

00:15:44.440 | So people, they don't want to be there.

00:15:48.520 | I regret it most because of the effect it clearly had

00:15:52.800 | on how I competed.

00:15:54.020 | It was clear that my competition

00:15:57.840 | was constantly driven by conservative thinking.

00:16:02.360 | Like, don't take risks.

00:16:04.360 | I think because of a weak defense, honestly.

00:16:07.440 | And I think a lot of the, any of the fear,

00:16:11.000 | like, for example, exhaustion was accompanied by fear

00:16:14.760 | because of weak defense, I think.

00:16:16.720 | If I were to psychoanalyze myself,

00:16:18.560 | and I regret it, I regret it a lot.

00:16:20.820 | But speaking of which,

00:16:25.380 | I don't think anyone's ever submitted you in competition.

00:16:29.920 | So you're--

00:16:30.760 | - Well, I was a juvenile, yes.

00:16:33.760 | - Yes, so when you were a young person.

00:16:36.880 | - Yeah, six.

00:16:37.720 | - Does that still haunt you?

00:16:39.480 | - I don't know.

00:16:40.320 | First I was winning that fight, by and large.

00:16:45.560 | I mean, I think by six points,

00:16:47.120 | or four, something like that.

00:16:48.200 | But I was like, I was going--

00:16:49.040 | - You still remember it, though, huh?

00:16:50.480 | - By the details.

00:16:51.600 | (laughing)

00:16:53.840 | - That's funny.

00:16:56.920 | - Yeah.

00:16:57.760 | - You ever beat him again?

00:16:58.840 | - He never competed again.

00:17:00.160 | (laughing)

00:17:02.400 | - Whoever you are, please, let's do a podcast.

00:17:07.520 | - I know, I know.

00:17:08.360 | - We'll talk shit about Hadji the whole time.

00:17:10.320 | No, but what do you attribute that to?

00:17:12.120 | You're saying you're confident,

00:17:13.840 | you're confident that the top of the world,

00:17:17.280 | the number one, Bouchescu would not submit you.

00:17:20.460 | So where is that confidence grounded,

00:17:23.160 | and what do you attribute the fact

00:17:25.200 | that nobody was able to submit you?

00:17:26.960 | - First, it comes from training.

00:17:30.280 | I train a lot bad position.

00:17:33.720 | My defense is good because I practice over and over again.

00:17:37.920 | That's as much as I practice all my offensive position.

00:17:41.760 | So you have to train both equally,

00:17:44.720 | not just being a good position.

00:17:46.440 | You have to be in bad.

00:17:48.120 | So I think that's a very strong part of my game.

00:17:50.720 | To be a complete fighter, a complete martial artist,

00:17:56.800 | you have to be good in every single position,

00:18:00.440 | every single one.

00:18:01.760 | Those are the you're not, you have a weakness.

00:18:04.400 | So to be complete, you should have no weakness.

00:18:07.840 | So that was always my,

00:18:10.320 | I was always very particular on that,

00:18:13.440 | like it's where my weakness,

00:18:15.640 | where I don't feel good at it.

00:18:17.520 | If you put me in a position to struggle,

00:18:19.240 | how do I escape, how do I get out?

00:18:20.800 | Everything, any submission locked,

00:18:23.800 | penny position, back mount, everything.

00:18:27.360 | It doesn't matter which position I'm at,

00:18:30.040 | I practice over and over again.

00:18:31.920 | So if I get there in a fighting situation,

00:18:36.320 | I will know how to get out.

00:18:37.400 | At least I'll have a direction.

00:18:39.880 | I will know this is my way out.

00:18:41.560 | - Do you practice both escaping the bad position

00:18:45.480 | and the transition into the bad position, avoiding it?

00:18:50.480 | Because that's how it happens.

00:18:53.480 | Jiu-jitsu, you start in a neutral position.

00:18:57.320 | - No, the transition then becomes the fight itself.

00:19:00.640 | It's being there is most important.

00:19:02.840 | It's when you're there,

00:19:04.680 | then you have to know how to get out.

00:19:06.920 | That's your weakness.

00:19:08.080 | Stopping the person getting there is something different.

00:19:12.080 | They're two different things.

00:19:14.440 | Either you practice one or the other.

00:19:16.920 | - So both are important, I guess.

00:19:18.760 | But stopping the person is easier to practice

00:19:21.560 | 'cause that comes naturally in training.

00:19:24.000 | What was the actual process?

00:19:25.880 | Like what was your biggest weakness throughout your,

00:19:28.640 | like just remembering what was annoying to you

00:19:31.840 | to figure out?

00:19:33.200 | - I mean, side control is always--

00:19:35.600 | - Bottom of side control.

00:19:36.440 | - Bottom.

00:19:37.560 | Regardless how much you practice, it's not ever easy.

00:19:41.080 | You'll never be easy.

00:19:42.800 | But--

00:19:43.680 | - It's so annoying.

00:19:44.520 | It makes no sense.

00:19:45.720 | - Yeah, someone pins you down.

00:19:47.000 | He doesn't wanna move much.

00:19:48.200 | He's a big and strong guy.

00:19:49.360 | Regardless of who, it's not gonna be easy to escape.

00:19:51.960 | So some situations are just hard.

00:19:54.360 | - That must be the, sorry to interrupt.

00:19:56.320 | I'm interrupting Haja Grace.

00:19:57.560 | He's discussing Jiu-jitsu.

00:19:59.880 | But you just made me realize,

00:20:01.820 | if you're really good,

00:20:05.000 | if you're going against like the perfect Jiu-jitsu competitor

00:20:09.720 | probably side control might be one of the hardest positions.

00:20:12.920 | Is it the hardest position to escape?

00:20:14.480 | - It's one of them.

00:20:15.480 | If the person doesn't wanna progress,

00:20:17.040 | he's just concerned about--

00:20:18.160 | - So if they're stalling.

00:20:19.800 | Like the best pinners in the world.

00:20:21.480 | I mean, partially because I've just seen Judo people

00:20:24.080 | that know how to pin.

00:20:25.720 | They--

00:20:26.560 | - They go escape their side control.

00:20:27.800 | It's a nightmare.

00:20:29.240 | It's a nightmare.

00:20:30.080 | Doesn't matter how much you practice.

00:20:32.560 | It's a nightmare.

00:20:34.160 | - And it's also just frustrating.

00:20:35.860 | I think, I guess it is also frustrating

00:20:39.040 | because a lot of people in that position

00:20:41.120 | will be about maintaining control, not progressing.

00:20:44.480 | And usually people when they're in back control

00:20:46.880 | are usually trying to progress towards the submission,

00:20:50.320 | which opens up opportunities for escape.

00:20:52.520 | So what's the actual process of just time and time again

00:20:58.520 | putting yourself in a bottom side control?

00:21:00.880 | - Yeah, over and over again.

00:21:02.560 | Starting there, escape, get back, escape, get back.

00:21:06.400 | If it mount you, get back.

00:21:08.340 | Any situation outside that, stop, start again,

00:21:10.520 | stop, start again.

00:21:12.040 | And it has to be, I'll say five minutes

00:21:15.600 | because it's the repetition that will teach you.

00:21:17.920 | You know, if you train like three minutes on top,

00:21:20.360 | you have time to, you know, one thing and then time out.

00:21:24.040 | It's the repetition that over and over again,

00:21:26.320 | you know, when you try the same move over and over again,

00:21:28.560 | then you'll see what can go wrong.

00:21:32.000 | - And is it understanding the details of the movement

00:21:34.200 | or actually doing the movement and feeling it?

00:21:36.700 | - It's both.

00:21:37.960 | First you have to understand the movement and then practice.

00:21:40.880 | But most important thing is defense.

00:21:47.220 | Escape coming second.

00:21:48.540 | Because, you know, he's attacking you.

00:21:52.120 | The one thing is if he's not trying to submit you,

00:21:54.060 | but the other one, if it is,

00:21:55.120 | let's say if a person is very good, has a very good attack,

00:21:58.920 | the first thing is defense, not just escape.

00:22:02.680 | And expose yourself to an even worse position

00:22:05.000 | because that is very risky.

00:22:08.160 | When you're trying to escape,

00:22:09.120 | you'll always expose yourself to a worse position.

00:22:12.100 | So avoiding that, it's, you know,

00:22:13.880 | first is defense, not getting caught.

00:22:16.320 | And then when you're escaping,

00:22:18.700 | don't be in a worse position than you are.

00:22:20.560 | - So defense in jiu-jitsu, when you're wearing a gi,

00:22:23.720 | what does defense entail?

00:22:25.040 | Is it mostly grips?

00:22:26.400 | Is it mostly the positioning of your hips and legs?

00:22:29.440 | - It's everything together

00:22:31.380 | because it's a whole body movement.

00:22:32.880 | It's constantly moving your arms, legs, body.

00:22:36.400 | They have to, everything works together.

00:22:41.420 | - Going back to the mind of that guy,

00:22:44.980 | so confident, no fear at this point.

00:22:51.020 | Is there a bit of ego in there too?

00:22:53.240 | - Yes.

00:22:54.320 | Like I say, I'm not gonna say I'm fearless.

00:22:58.040 | Of course there's concerns.

00:22:59.940 | That fight, I would have to say,

00:23:03.480 | was probably the fight that I got nervous the most,

00:23:06.640 | walking in, because I knew what that meant, that fight.

00:23:11.080 | It meant everything for me, all my legacy was on the line.

00:23:16.080 | Because if I lost that fight,

00:23:19.080 | forever I would be number two, forever.

00:23:22.480 | And I mean, Boucher is a great guy, great competitor.

00:23:27.480 | Jiu-jitsu is very good, but I'm better than him.

00:23:31.280 | I knew that.

00:23:32.120 | - But he's competing nonstop at that point.

00:23:35.160 | - He's a great competitor, taking nothing out of him.

00:23:38.200 | He's super tough, very tough, very good.

00:23:41.840 | He's probably the best competitor in jiu-jitsu.

00:23:44.760 | He won 13 times the world championship, I won 10.

00:23:48.200 | So as a competitor, he has more titles than I do.

00:23:52.200 | But in terms of analyzing the game,

00:23:56.960 | I consider technically better than him.

00:23:59.720 | So knowing all that, everything that I build,

00:24:04.280 | all my legacy, it's if I lose--

00:24:07.520 | - All's riding on this match.

00:24:09.080 | - If I lose this fight, I'm forever number two.

00:24:12.320 | - And none of that is going through your mind at all.

00:24:15.800 | - No, I knew, I mean, it's not at that moment.

00:24:18.080 | I already knew that.

00:24:20.760 | I remember just before, the curtains open,

00:24:23.640 | I'm standing in before they call my name.

00:24:26.360 | And I mean, my legs were like,

00:24:28.360 | I feel the adrenaline kicking on my legs.

00:24:32.760 | And I'm like, I'm hitting the legs.

00:24:35.280 | I'm like, wake up, get the adrenaline off me.

00:24:38.920 | So it was intense, it was intense.

00:24:43.120 | - And this was in Rio.

00:24:44.640 | - That was in Rio.

00:24:45.840 | So-- - My hometown.

00:24:48.160 | - So this is, I mean, and you know,

00:24:50.600 | Rio is not exactly known for its calmness in its fans.

00:24:55.600 | So this is like, wow, wherever they hosted the Olympics

00:24:59.600 | the year before.

00:25:01.960 | So this is like, I mean, this,

00:25:05.240 | like the whole basically martial arts community

00:25:09.520 | is watching this. - Watching that fight.

00:25:11.520 | (Lex laughing)

00:25:13.080 | - I mean, is there some, was Hanzo there?

00:25:15.840 | - Yeah. (Lex laughing)

00:25:17.280 | Yeah, he was there.

00:25:18.120 | - So people are just, I mean, there's a tension.

00:25:20.240 | It's also, I mean, I don't know if you felt that in part,

00:25:23.760 | but you're also fighting for the Gracie name.

00:25:26.200 | - Yeah.

00:25:27.040 | In our hometown.

00:25:29.800 | - The greatest--

00:25:30.640 | - Where the Gracie really established.

00:25:32.120 | - Gracie competitor of all time,

00:25:34.000 | arguably in the hometown.

00:25:37.360 | - Yeah. - I mean, okay.

00:25:39.160 | - All my family, my best friends, my friends,

00:25:41.920 | everybody watching, everybody there.

00:25:44.040 | There was a lot of pressure, a lot.

00:25:46.360 | - And then were you thinking

00:25:50.560 | that you would be able to submit him?

00:25:52.360 | - No, it's at that point,

00:25:54.320 | like I don't predict how the fight will go.

00:25:56.280 | That I never did because it isn't predictable.

00:25:59.280 | It's, I never tried to set any strategy for any fight.

00:26:03.600 | I think, oh, okay, that I did,

00:26:06.440 | but that was the only time

00:26:08.560 | that I set any strategy into a fight.

00:26:11.120 | There was a 15 minutes fight there.

00:26:12.880 | And I said, first five minutes, I'm gonna play defense.

00:26:18.440 | He's bigger, stronger, younger.

00:26:20.440 | I don't wanna play his game.

00:26:21.640 | And I know he comes in very fast.

00:26:23.520 | Every single fight he had, he comes very aggressive.

00:26:27.320 | So my strategy walk into the fight,

00:26:29.760 | I say five minutes, I'm gonna play defense.

00:26:32.280 | I'm not gonna try to attack.

00:26:33.520 | I'm not gonna try to match his pace.

00:26:35.320 | I already expected, maybe I'm gonna start losing the fight

00:26:39.040 | because if he comes in, there's a risk of me

00:26:41.640 | maybe getting takedown or something happen.

00:26:44.840 | I'm like, I'm gonna stick to the game plan.

00:26:48.600 | Five minutes, I'm gonna start picking up the pace

00:26:51.440 | 'cause then it's 10 minutes to go,

00:26:52.560 | which 10 minutes is a long fight.

00:26:53.760 | So I don't need to start fast,

00:26:55.200 | but I'm gonna start being more aggressive

00:26:57.040 | and then try to take him down or pull guard.

00:27:01.000 | By then I'm like, that's as far as strategy goes.

00:27:03.720 | - So no specific stay in the feed.

00:27:07.240 | Were you comfortable being both bottom and top

00:27:09.360 | in this strategically?

00:27:10.200 | - Yeah, I'm always comfortable being bottom or top.

00:27:12.800 | I prefer to be on top because being in the bottom,

00:27:17.800 | the person on top dictates the pace of the fight

00:27:20.360 | 'cause he's on top over you.

00:27:22.120 | So I always prefer to be on top

00:27:23.840 | 'cause I can dictate the pace.

00:27:25.320 | I can implement my own pace.

00:27:27.720 | And being the bottom, they can slow me down.

00:27:30.720 | So it's harder.

00:27:32.120 | So if I can choose, I will always be on top.

00:27:36.040 | But I think by then I was like,

00:27:38.200 | it's five minutes, hit it.

00:27:40.960 | I'm like, he's pretty big and strong.

00:27:42.880 | I'm gonna spend a lot of energy taking him down.

00:27:45.680 | I pull guard.

00:27:47.120 | - How did it feel?

00:27:49.200 | So here you're stepping in, by the way, puzzle math,

00:27:51.880 | this is old school, as old school as it gets.

00:27:54.240 | So calm and relaxed here for people just listening.

00:27:58.800 | We're watching the early minutes of the match.

00:28:01.640 | So just feeling it out.

00:28:02.720 | He seems pretty calm too.

00:28:03.840 | He must be nervous too.

00:28:05.120 | I wonder how, do you ever talk to him?

00:28:06.640 | You guys are friends.

00:28:07.480 | - Yeah, we're friends.

00:28:09.000 | - Did he ever say how nervous he was?

00:28:10.800 | - No, we never spoke about that fight.

00:28:13.200 | No.

00:28:14.040 | - He probably lays late at night thinking about it.

00:28:21.360 | - Maybe, I don't know.

00:28:22.840 | - That SOB.

00:28:24.280 | - Yeah.

00:28:25.120 | - I mean, so you see the first five minutes,

00:28:26.760 | you know, he kept,

00:28:28.440 | I knew what he was going to do.

00:28:30.240 | And I studied his game.

00:28:31.880 | His stand up is most basic,

00:28:34.920 | is basic in takedowns, leg attacks, double leg.

00:28:39.920 | So he goes single, double, and he charges in.

00:28:43.280 | That is pretty much his stand up game.

00:28:46.320 | - So you would try, you get a grip.

00:28:48.800 | - Yeah, but we got penalized.

00:28:50.720 | - So do you like to use the,

00:28:54.520 | do you like to pose with your left?

00:28:56.480 | You have a right foot forward usually.

00:28:58.080 | You're a righty, right?

00:28:59.320 | - I'm a righty, but I know he wants my leg.

00:29:01.880 | So I'm playing my stance just because of his game.

00:29:06.000 | All my grips, the first five minutes

00:29:09.120 | was to kind of try to neutralize his attacks.

00:29:12.160 | - So he wants to get your left leg.

00:29:13.560 | - Yeah.

00:29:14.400 | - Yeah, right there.

00:29:17.480 | - Yeah.

00:29:18.320 | - So how hard is that to stop that?

00:29:20.240 | - I mean, he felt pretty strong coming in.

00:29:22.440 | So I'm pushing the head down,

00:29:24.960 | trying to play with his balance.

00:29:26.560 | - Yeah, wow.

00:29:29.000 | - If you see that there was a pause, go back there.

00:29:33.640 | He charged in, there's a pause,

00:29:36.680 | me standing in front of him.

00:29:38.760 | - Yeah.

00:29:39.600 | - I did that on purpose.

00:29:40.560 | - What do you mean?

00:29:43.080 | - Just to, just in front of him,

00:29:45.240 | 'cause he tried, and I'm like, you fail, I'm here.

00:29:49.000 | - There's a, okay.

00:29:52.960 | So you could feel the frustration.

00:29:55.160 | - I could feel his frustration

00:29:57.680 | not be able to take me down.

00:29:59.440 | - Okay, so now, and this is just psychological battle.

00:30:03.760 | - And you see me walking straight into the middle of the mat

00:30:06.480 | and he's circling out.

00:30:08.280 | - Yeah.

00:30:09.120 | - See, I'm going very slow, I'm recovering.

00:30:11.720 | - And he's computing like shit.

00:30:13.560 | - Yeah. - Okay.

00:30:14.400 | - Because he just made an effort,

00:30:15.920 | tried to take me down, he needs to recover.

00:30:18.640 | And I mean, you need to recover,

00:30:20.920 | the other guys, they're waiting for you.

00:30:22.960 | - Yeah, and do I go for another takedown?

00:30:26.520 | 'Cause this one failed.

00:30:28.240 | - Yeah.

00:30:29.080 | - Do I need to recalculate the strategy?

00:30:30.600 | - Yeah, and he kept trying over and over again

00:30:32.880 | and keep failing.

00:30:34.720 | I think that frustrate him a lot on that fight.

00:30:37.600 | I felt him kind of slowing down suddenly

00:30:42.400 | because he was getting nowhere.

00:30:44.000 | - So we're five minutes in.

00:30:48.720 | Yeah, he keeps, so he never got that takedown

00:30:51.880 | in the early, no.

00:30:54.080 | - Yeah.

00:30:54.920 | Let's see, so at this point, do you pull guard?

00:31:01.160 | Yeah, okay.

00:31:02.000 | - So that's when I felt like he's,

00:31:05.960 | mentally he's worried now.

00:31:11.640 | - Did you try to pull close guard here?

00:31:13.200 | - No, I knew he was gonna bring Danny in.

00:31:16.040 | - Okay, 'cause that's the defense

00:31:17.640 | against pulling close guard?

00:31:18.800 | - Yeah, but I like that.

00:31:22.400 | I like people bringing Danny between my legs

00:31:26.240 | 'cause see, I'm gonna close my guard even with his leg in.

00:31:30.080 | - Okay, he's stopping the, well, this is awkward, but--

00:31:35.080 | - Because I was holding his arm, that's why he fell.

00:31:37.880 | He had no hand to post.

00:31:39.360 | - Got it.

00:31:40.560 | But still, it puts a leg in,

00:31:43.120 | but you're able to close your guard.

00:31:45.200 | So you're okay with that?

00:31:46.480 | - I do that really well.

00:31:47.480 | I sweep people from that position a lot.

00:31:49.200 | - What's the sweep?

00:31:50.560 | - I guess it's just pushed.

00:31:52.440 | - Okay.

00:31:53.280 | - It's just a push.

00:31:54.120 | - Like to your left side?

00:31:54.960 | - Yeah.

00:31:55.800 | - Okay, because he has no, oh, it's almost like a,

00:31:58.440 | you mean you're basically around his back a little bit,

00:32:00.760 | like a drag situation.

00:32:01.600 | - Yeah, and he knew that,

00:32:02.480 | like I swept a lot of people with that sweep,

00:32:04.600 | so you see he kept leaning to his left, to my right.

00:32:09.000 | - Yeah.

00:32:09.840 | - So I wanna push them to my left,

00:32:11.800 | so you see him leaning over to my right a lot.

00:32:14.400 | - What's the right answer for him,

00:32:15.480 | to like roll or something?

00:32:16.560 | - No, I mean, he's stuck.

00:32:17.680 | He's stuck there.

00:32:20.200 | - He's got no grip.

00:32:21.040 | - But the one thing he did, he kept off me completely.

00:32:24.520 | See that he's leaning, like he's too afraid of my attack now

00:32:28.760 | because he should lean on me.

00:32:31.520 | - Yep.

00:32:32.360 | - You know, you should bring the fight to me.

00:32:34.440 | So when I fell him, you know,

00:32:36.400 | I knew he was like, he's too worried about my attacks now.

00:32:41.200 | - Oh yeah, that's right, so he can't,

00:32:42.640 | if he comes back to the center, he has no--

00:32:45.040 | - So he's not engaging now.

00:32:46.280 | That time he's 100% just defending.

00:32:49.240 | So I felt that, I'm like, he doesn't wanna engage.

00:32:51.840 | And he's looking, I knew at that point, he wants my foot.

00:32:58.240 | 'Cause our first fight, I had the exact the same position.

00:33:01.200 | I wasn't holding his arm and he went to attack my foot,

00:33:04.480 | which he did, you know, he got into attack.

00:33:05.320 | - Like a toe hold or what?

00:33:06.960 | - Yeah. - Okay.

00:33:07.800 | - Yeah, so I knew he's looking at my foot.

00:33:10.440 | - Which foot, sorry, your right foot?

00:33:12.680 | - Yeah, my right foot.

00:33:14.400 | - Okay.

00:33:15.560 | - But I'm holding his arm.

00:33:16.400 | - You're hiding it?

00:33:17.240 | - I'm holding his arm.

00:33:18.640 | - And now you're going to the back

00:33:19.840 | as an arm drag type of thing.

00:33:21.160 | - So the moment that I came off,

00:33:23.480 | now I'm holding his arm so he cannot come up.

00:33:26.920 | So I'm holding his left arm,

00:33:29.080 | so he cannot post a hand on the floor and come up.

00:33:31.760 | - And he's holding your right to try to get you,

00:33:34.160 | basically to prevent you from attacking.

00:33:37.840 | - Yeah.

00:33:38.680 | - Oh, that's interesting, and he rolls.

00:33:41.840 | - Yeah, he tried to get me off balance.

00:33:45.360 | So see, now I'm switching, I switched the grip on his arm.

00:33:48.480 | So I can free my left arm.

00:33:50.760 | - Can I ask you a question?

00:33:52.520 | Like, was there a chance he sweeps you here?

00:33:56.960 | - I mean, there's always a chance, but very hard.

00:33:58.360 | - Like that?

00:33:59.200 | - Yeah, but see, my left arm is free.

00:34:01.440 | - Oh, so you can post.

00:34:02.360 | - Yeah.

00:34:03.600 | - Why was your left arm free?

00:34:04.680 | Oh, 'cause you were using it, you got it.

00:34:06.000 | - I got it.

00:34:07.240 | - Okay.

00:34:08.080 | - So I tried the hook, now you will see.

00:34:12.120 | - Still got your arm.

00:34:14.280 | - Yeah, but when I knew, he's panicking,

00:34:18.840 | because he did a move that he completely opened himself up.

00:34:23.000 | Like, I'm holding his left arm, so by holding the arm,

00:34:27.360 | that prevents him from defending the hook on that side,

00:34:31.360 | because his arm is being held across.

00:34:33.680 | So the arm cannot block the hook.

00:34:36.200 | And I mean--

00:34:38.120 | - The hook with your left leg?

00:34:39.640 | - Yeah, so you'll see when he come up.

00:34:41.920 | But I would say, I mean, that's my guess,

00:34:43.840 | but Boucher, he's a big guy, he's like 110 kilos,

00:34:48.840 | 112, something like that.

00:34:51.000 | - Which is?

00:34:51.840 | - 245.

00:34:52.680 | - Yeah, all right.

00:34:53.680 | So what were you at the time?

00:34:56.640 | - Less, 220, yeah, 220.

00:34:58.720 | - A nice slim 100 kilo, okay.

00:35:03.600 | - So his defense are not amazing.

00:35:08.600 | He's good, but he's not known to have amazing defense.

00:35:12.840 | So by being the big guy in the room when you train,

00:35:16.280 | you used to get out of situation because of your size.

00:35:19.480 | You shake people off.

00:35:21.240 | It's because of your size, you shake them off,

00:35:23.840 | you get off some bad positions.

00:35:25.920 | You can, I mean, I could feel in the first fight,

00:35:28.480 | I'm side control, suddenly he explode out.

00:35:32.240 | So I've seen him doing that a few of his fights.

00:35:35.680 | Not in the most technical way, just I'm getting out.

00:35:40.520 | And he did because of his size.

00:35:42.720 | So, and he did the same thing,

00:35:44.320 | like he tried to stood up when I'm on his back.

00:35:47.680 | He completely opened up the hooks.

00:35:50.160 | You will see the next move, his head gonna come up

00:35:52.880 | and he gonna try to get off the floor.

00:35:54.720 | - So basically come up, shake you off kind of strategy.

00:35:57.600 | - There was no defense for the hooks.

00:35:58.800 | I put both hooks in straight away.

00:36:01.360 | - Oh, his arm is--

00:36:03.360 | - Yeah, I'm off balance, yeah.

00:36:04.560 | See, I didn't bring him up, he came up.

00:36:07.760 | - Yeah.

00:36:08.760 | - And now I'm attacking his neck

00:36:12.600 | and he's worried about the hooks.

00:36:14.280 | That's fatal mistake.

00:36:17.040 | That's like defense always come first.

00:36:19.840 | Remember what I just said now?

00:36:21.080 | - Yeah.

00:36:21.920 | - Defense first, escape second.

00:36:23.640 | So he's not worried more about the points than his neck.

00:36:27.120 | So it was like a progression of mistakes.

00:36:32.600 | That's why I think he got frustrated

00:36:34.760 | when he couldn't take me down.

00:36:36.520 | And then when I pull guard,

00:36:37.800 | he was frustrated that the fight wasn't going his way.

00:36:41.440 | You know, he's very good about taking down.

00:36:43.360 | He try over and over again for five minutes.

00:36:45.360 | - And here he was frustrated about the hooks.

00:36:47.120 | So he's like, it's almost like the frustration,

00:36:49.800 | things like, no, no, no, these hooks shouldn't be here.

00:36:51.840 | - Like I pull guard on the grips that I want.

00:36:54.240 | He's not comfortable inside my guard.

00:36:55.880 | He's not in a position that he wants to be.

00:36:57.760 | He's over leaning to his left, you know,

00:37:00.960 | he's not engaging or trying to pass.

00:37:04.160 | He's trying to get the foot, but his arm is trapped.

00:37:06.520 | He's gonna get nowhere.

00:37:08.360 | And then when I swept him,

00:37:09.960 | some of his words start collapsing.

00:37:12.520 | You know, he couldn't take me down.

00:37:13.760 | I pull guard, I'm swept.

00:37:15.400 | He tried to roll me over.

00:37:17.240 | No, he didn't get me anywhere.

00:37:20.120 | The first movement that he tried to escape,

00:37:22.400 | I'm on his back.

00:37:23.720 | I mean, now he's lost.

00:37:25.440 | - Yeah.

00:37:26.920 | That, if you just go back to him standing up.

00:37:29.920 | - See, both hook goes in no difference.

00:37:33.720 | Like there was nothing on the way of those hooks.

00:37:37.760 | Because he tried to come up.

00:37:39.440 | - As he's coming up, you're high enough on him

00:37:43.400 | to where the weight was just probably immense.

00:37:46.880 | It just felt too heavy.

00:37:49.480 | I mean, you're already going for the choke.

00:37:53.480 | - Yeah, of course.

00:37:55.240 | There's no time to lose.

00:37:56.440 | - Look at that.

00:37:58.680 | - Yeah.

00:37:59.520 | - So you're not like worried I'm gonna get shaken off.

00:38:01.480 | You're going for the choke.

00:38:02.320 | Okay, you got your right hand on his foot now.

00:38:03.160 | - No, he's not shaking me off.

00:38:04.360 | I'm on your back now.

00:38:06.440 | We're in this together.

00:38:08.520 | - And your right hand is opening up the lapel.

00:38:11.400 | - My right hand is holding his arm.

00:38:13.320 | I'm still holding the sleeve.

00:38:14.160 | - Oh, sorry.

00:38:15.000 | You're holding the sleeve, but--

00:38:16.600 | - Holding the sleeve and I'm already going for the neck.

00:38:19.760 | Because it's timing.

00:38:21.160 | - At which point do you let go of the sleeve

00:38:24.160 | and open up, help with the lapel, or do you not need it?

00:38:27.240 | - No, I did that.

00:38:28.440 | But first I wanna try to make a grip.

00:38:30.840 | Like then I need to establish control

00:38:32.880 | before I let go of his arm.

00:38:34.120 | - Got it.

00:38:35.800 | - So I kept holding that a bit longer.

00:38:39.400 | And then when I fell, okay,

00:38:40.840 | I have a good control over the back, then I let go.

00:38:43.400 | - Do you, okay, so you have like a light grip on his lapel,

00:38:49.560 | but you're thinking--

00:38:50.520 | - No, I need to adjust that.

00:38:52.040 | - You need to adjust that.

00:38:52.880 | But you're like holding it there,

00:38:54.600 | and you're thinking, okay, at some point I need to adjust.

00:38:56.600 | - All I need, all I want is to get under his chin.

00:38:58.840 | Then I know, I mean, now I can go for it.

00:39:02.000 | 'Cause if it's over, there's no choke, right?

00:39:03.760 | - The wrist needs to be under.

00:39:06.000 | - Can you choke Bucescu over the--

00:39:08.200 | - No, I can't.

00:39:09.040 | That's just not right.

00:39:10.360 | - Okay, it's not right or it doesn't work?

00:39:12.760 | - Both, it's not right and it doesn't work.

00:39:15.040 | I mean, would you tap to choke on your chin?

00:39:17.120 | No, it's just pressure.

00:39:18.280 | You hurt, but it's not gonna choke you out.

00:39:21.400 | - I don't know, I don't know.

00:39:22.960 | Let me argue this, I love this.

00:39:24.360 | Arguing with Roger Gracie about chokes, this is great.

00:39:27.160 | Okay, like clock choke, it was always interesting to me,

00:39:30.400 | 'cause in judo it's illegal to have the gi around the,

00:39:34.200 | the face, and so it was kind of liberating for me

00:39:37.240 | to be allowed to have a gi around the face.

00:39:41.040 | No, it's just--

00:39:41.880 | - Liberating.

00:39:43.280 | - No, you don't have to worry about it.

00:39:45.240 | Of course, it's more effective to go under the chin,

00:39:47.000 | but I'm surprised just because the amount of pressure.

00:39:49.880 | - It's all about how much you can take it.

00:39:51.600 | You can take a lot.

00:39:52.560 | - But it feels like--

00:39:53.720 | - No, it doesn't feel comfortable.

00:39:54.840 | I mean, sometimes on your mouth, it cuts your mouth,

00:39:57.080 | now you're bleeding, it feels horrible.

00:39:58.360 | - No, but it feels, that's not the feeling.

00:40:00.000 | The feeling, it might not be a choke,

00:40:01.520 | but the feeling like, it's a pressure

00:40:04.360 | that everything's just closing in.

00:40:06.160 | - But it doesn't take you anywhere.

00:40:07.520 | Like, you're not gonna go to sleep.

00:40:08.920 | - You might not go to sleep.

00:40:10.000 | - So it's just pressure.

00:40:11.660 | - Yes.

00:40:13.480 | - So pressure, it hurts, it's uncomfortable,

00:40:16.160 | but it's not gonna break your face,

00:40:18.680 | and it's not gonna put you to sleep.

00:40:20.160 | So if I don't get the neck, I don't go for the gi.

00:40:22.880 | I'm like, I'm holding his collar,

00:40:28.760 | but my wrist is almost under.

00:40:31.060 | I'm trying to kind of dig in.

00:40:35.560 | If I can't dig in, then I would adjust the collar,

00:40:38.240 | but first I need to dig in.

00:40:39.480 | - Dig in first, then adjust.

00:40:41.280 | Can you do all that with one hand or no?

00:40:43.120 | - I did.

00:40:43.960 | - So you can tighten the choke with just one hand?

00:40:48.200 | - No, I need the second one to open the lapel.

00:40:51.560 | - But you're like digging in with one hand.

00:40:53.160 | - I'm digging in under the chin.

00:40:54.680 | - Under the chin.

00:40:55.520 | - Under, now I need to go deeper.

00:40:57.320 | - But that, the going deeper requires the second hand.

00:41:00.040 | - It does.

00:41:00.880 | - Okay.

00:41:01.700 | - It does.

00:41:02.540 | - But that requires you letting go of the other hand.

00:41:04.800 | - Yeah, I have to let go eventually.

00:41:06.600 | Yeah, see?

00:41:08.440 | - All right.

00:41:09.260 | Well, that's over.

00:41:10.360 | - Yeah, because I'm already under his,

00:41:12.920 | like the first hand got under the chin.

00:41:15.640 | - Do you need the hand on the second lapel?

00:41:18.120 | - Of course, otherwise he turns, and he's out.

00:41:20.520 | - That's to control the turning

00:41:21.800 | versus the tightening of the choke?

00:41:23.560 | - Yeah, it does both.

00:41:25.040 | It helps tight the collar and stop the person rolling out.

00:41:29.680 | - Were you feeling pretty good about this position?

00:41:41.400 | - Yes.

00:41:42.240 | I just felt it's getting tighter, tighter, tighter, tighter

00:41:46.120 | because it wasn't super tight from the beginning.

00:41:49.720 | It wasn't like the perfect choke.

00:41:51.200 | So we're still, I mean, I knew it was like,

00:41:53.520 | he's very close to the end, but I still need to adjust.

00:41:56.680 | There was still the risk of maybe escaping.

00:41:58.880 | - Is it possible for his head to slip out?

00:42:01.560 | - It's possible, yes.

00:42:02.800 | But I'm closing that gap.

00:42:04.480 | Yeah.

00:42:07.800 | - Right here.

00:42:08.640 | What did that feel like, relief?

00:42:12.920 | - Relief, like awesome.

00:42:15.800 | Amazing.

00:42:16.640 | (laughing)

00:42:17.960 | - Somebody on Reddit asked,

00:42:19.720 | ask him about the cross grip he used

00:42:22.200 | to sweep followed with a genius grip switch

00:42:25.600 | when Bucescia was inverted.

00:42:26.880 | Did you use a cross grip when you sweeped?

00:42:29.120 | - I guess the cross grip in the arm, that must be it.

00:42:31.240 | - Oh, that's the cross grip.

00:42:32.800 | Okay.

00:42:34.280 | What's the genius behind that?

00:42:35.920 | Or was that just the, do you like that kind of grip?

00:42:40.080 | - Yeah, because I always like close guard

00:42:42.960 | and no one wants to be in anyone's close guard, right?

00:42:46.360 | It's open guard, it's the step to pass.

00:42:49.680 | So everybody, when you try to close the guard,

00:42:52.240 | they bring their knee in the middle.

00:42:54.000 | Like if you're not standing,

00:42:56.520 | if you're lower on the ground and they're open guard,

00:42:59.280 | if you're close to me, you need that knee between.

00:43:01.680 | So it's a must.

00:43:03.160 | That's when I start developing the attack.

00:43:06.000 | You know, I managed to have long legs

00:43:07.720 | to close my legs around people even with that.

00:43:10.960 | And then I just developed that sweep.

00:43:13.480 | - When did you start developing that?

00:43:15.720 | - I don't remember when, but I would say before black belt.

00:43:19.240 | - Okay, so your answer to that is not to figure out

00:43:23.240 | how to prevent them from putting the knee in.

00:43:26.120 | Is there an answer to that?

00:43:27.240 | - No.

00:43:28.080 | - The good guys will always try to get the knee in.

00:43:31.320 | - Remove the leg out of the way.

00:43:32.880 | That's not possible.

00:43:33.840 | - Well, maybe off balance them enough to where it's not.

00:43:35.960 | - No.

00:43:37.280 | I mean, you can try, but like it's hard.

00:43:39.720 | If you can off balance, you sweep them.

00:43:42.320 | - Right.

00:43:43.200 | So that knee's gonna, so you have to solve that.

00:43:44.880 | - That's a full sweep, yeah.

00:43:46.680 | - Because that's, it's extremely common to have that.

00:43:51.440 | I mean, if I'm on your guard, open guard,

00:43:54.680 | you know, if you have your legs,

00:43:55.800 | if I'm between both of your legs in the open guard,

00:43:58.160 | my knee will be between your legs.

00:43:59.400 | 'Cause it's a must.

00:44:00.880 | My knee cannot be on the floor.

00:44:02.440 | - Since Henzo was there, what did he tell you before?

00:44:06.040 | - I think just motivate you.

00:44:08.120 | I think that's, Henzo always did that fantastically well

00:44:12.000 | to motivate me, like before in fight or match.

00:44:16.160 | I think that, you know, the confidence,

00:44:17.760 | you know, his energy being around you,

00:44:21.360 | I think that's the, is the great thing

00:44:24.640 | to have Henzo in your corner.

00:44:25.720 | It is the motivation that he gives you.

00:44:28.080 | - What did you learn about jiu-jitsu in life

00:44:29.840 | from Henzo Gracie?

00:44:31.600 | We got to hang out with him in Vegas a little bit.

00:44:33.680 | He's a character.

00:44:35.000 | He's one of the historic coaches and jiu-jitsu competitors,

00:44:39.280 | but also personalities in the martial arts world,

00:44:42.160 | in the world in general.

00:44:43.480 | There's very few like him.

00:44:44.640 | - Henzo is a fantastic person.

00:44:47.360 | It's, you know, what I've learned most from him

00:44:51.400 | is like, it's, you know, you can take any challenge.

00:44:54.080 | It's, you know, it doesn't matter when, where,

00:44:57.440 | what, you know, who, it's, you know, you have to be ready.

00:45:01.800 | And, you know, with that warrior spirit that he has,

00:45:05.480 | he, you know, he always took any challenge,

00:45:08.600 | ready or not ready.

00:45:09.680 | - Was it you that said it, or he said it,

00:45:13.720 | where not until you go in, you know,

00:45:18.720 | to do something difficult,

00:45:22.040 | do you discover the strength that you have?

00:45:23.800 | So like, if you really think about it,

00:45:27.000 | you might think that you don't, you're not good enough.

00:45:30.720 | You don't have the strength to take on something difficult.

00:45:33.080 | - I fully agree.

00:45:33.920 | I think we are measured not when we're on the strongest,

00:45:37.360 | but when we are on the weakest.

00:45:39.560 | That's when we truly measure ourselves, our character,

00:45:42.520 | who we are, not when we're in a position of power,

00:45:45.800 | or when we're in a position of weakness.

00:45:47.520 | - Have you surprised yourself, like how damn good you are?

00:45:51.400 | Like, is this really how good I am in this situation?

00:45:55.880 | Where in retrospect, you might think,

00:45:57.360 | how the hell was I able to accomplish this?

00:45:59.000 | - Not how good I am, because otherwise I wouldn't be there.

00:46:04.000 | So, you know, being there in the first place,

00:46:07.080 | it's already not a great thing.

00:46:10.480 | But I say, you know, every single time I found myself there,

00:46:15.120 | I was super proud that I've never cracked.

00:46:19.000 | Like, I've never gave up, ever, any second, any fight, never.

00:46:24.000 | - Never been broken in competition.

00:46:26.040 | - Never.

00:46:26.880 | Even, it's not about winning or losing,

00:46:29.440 | it's about you giving up.

00:46:31.560 | I've never doubted myself.

00:46:32.960 | I always fought to the very end, always.

00:46:36.520 | That I'm most proud of.

00:46:39.760 | 'Cause there was moments, you know,

00:46:41.040 | it's in a terrible position, you know,

00:46:44.080 | mainly like there was moments that I was super tired,

00:46:47.000 | but like, exhaustive tired, when it was easy to give up.

00:46:51.520 | Like, I had nothing more to give, but I pushed.

00:46:56.240 | I took energy out of my soul, I would have to say,

00:47:00.600 | 'cause when my body had zero,

00:47:02.960 | my spirit, my soul, pull it out.

00:47:07.480 | - Is that in part just not allowing yourself

00:47:10.120 | to have, to ever, ever quit?

00:47:14.600 | - Yeah.

00:47:16.120 | - I have one other thing I regret.

00:47:19.040 | I remember like a blue belt match.

00:47:21.400 | I remember, I'm not gonna say who it was against,

00:47:24.600 | but I remember it was just being extremely exhausted

00:47:28.840 | and just constantly fighting.

00:47:32.280 | A guy was really good mount, really good guard passing.

00:47:35.160 | And I just remember him passing my guard eventually.

00:47:40.160 | So it was just like a finals of one of the IBJJF tournaments

00:47:43.800 | and then right away going to mount and just,

00:47:48.800 | I don't know, the level of frustration,

00:47:53.320 | I mean, I quit at that point.

00:47:55.480 | So I remember that still.

00:47:57.440 | It's not about winning or losing,

00:47:59.480 | but I just remember I was like teary-eyed frustrated.

00:48:04.400 | And then I knew there was a lot of fights still left

00:48:07.600 | in there somewhere and I quit.

00:48:09.720 | And I regret that to this day.

00:48:11.680 | 'Cause I think the reason I regret that

00:48:13.880 | is 'cause it gave me an option to now quit

00:48:16.880 | in every other aspect of life.

00:48:18.760 | This is an option.

00:48:21.120 | - Yeah, it is.

00:48:22.580 | - It sucks.

00:48:24.320 | - Yeah, it teaches you, you know?

00:48:28.040 | It makes us stronger.

00:48:30.040 | - It's like you said. - I think it made you stronger.

00:48:32.680 | - Yeah, it makes you stronger that you did that

00:48:34.240 | to learn that don't do that again.

00:48:36.180 | But still, like you said, just going to sleep and training,

00:48:41.020 | I do think it made me weaker.

00:48:43.320 | It did make me weaker in the rest of my life too.

00:48:45.720 | Those, you know, I've quit a few times in my life

00:48:48.480 | on small things and you realize,

00:48:50.480 | okay, it's not that big of a deal, it's fine.

00:48:53.200 | Who cares?

00:48:54.040 | But what you learn over time is that voice always comes there

00:48:57.960 | like obviously, maybe it does for you too,

00:49:02.120 | even at the highest level of like,

00:49:03.940 | it's not that big of a deal.

00:49:05.000 | Like, it's okay to quit here.

00:49:06.740 | Like, it makes sense, everybody would understand.

00:49:10.200 | You know, in some sense, like, you're, you know,

00:49:15.640 | many people would say you're past your prime in this match

00:49:18.200 | with the Bouchesha, like, it makes sense.

00:49:20.120 | You've been focusing on MMA, makes sense.

00:49:22.480 | - Yeah.

00:49:23.320 | - Makes sense to lose.

00:49:25.420 | Yeah, I don't know, that's a weird voice.

00:49:28.200 | And in some sense, it's that voice and a voice that says,

00:49:32.040 | like, why are you doing this?

00:49:34.220 | Like, this is silly, this doesn't make any sense,

00:49:36.940 | just stop, just stop, just stop.

00:49:38.700 | (laughing)

00:49:40.960 | And shutting that voice down

00:49:43.380 | and never allowing yourself to quit,

00:49:44.620 | that's a really powerful thing.

00:49:45.560 | Like, everybody I've met, everybody that's successful,

00:49:49.880 | yeah, down to the, even engineers, CEOs,

00:49:55.020 | Elon Musk, just never quitting.

00:49:57.340 | Like, when everybody around you says quit, never quitting.

00:50:01.500 | It's weird, I don't know what that is.

00:50:03.140 | Might be genetic.

00:50:04.900 | It might be like using the stubbornness

00:50:07.300 | to just never allow yourself to develop that,

00:50:12.300 | it's basically developing a calluses

00:50:14.800 | to that voice that tries to tell you to quit.

00:50:17.740 | You never quit, huh?

00:50:19.380 | What would you attribute that to?

00:50:21.460 | - It's like how much you want to get

00:50:25.540 | to the destination you chose.

00:50:27.480 | Like, you know, it's how badly you wanna get there.

00:50:31.420 | And if you quit, you're never gonna get there.

00:50:33.900 | - And you always wanted to.

00:50:34.940 | - I always wanted to.

00:50:35.980 | - Is there some thing you remember from that match,

00:50:40.620 | some things that happened before and after

00:50:42.300 | that stand out to you, just since in Rio?

00:50:44.820 | - Yeah, there was an interview, you know,

00:50:46.580 | like prior to the fight, you know, there was a big fight.

00:50:50.060 | We were doing like media every day before.

00:50:52.480 | We were meeting, you know, me and him,

00:50:53.500 | we were meeting for media.

00:50:55.380 | And like five days before, you know, five, six days before,

00:50:59.900 | I'm quite chatty, it's, you know,

00:51:02.220 | the closer we get to the fight, the more focus I get,

00:51:05.100 | the less I start joke around playing, you know, with people.

00:51:10.100 | But I remember, I think it was maybe three

00:51:12.100 | or four days before we were doing an interview together.

00:51:15.660 | I think my cousin, Kira, was there,

00:51:17.180 | she was doing one of the interviews with us.

00:51:20.260 | And I don't remember exactly what we were talking about,

00:51:24.940 | but I just remember, we were talking about the fight,

00:51:26.700 | of course, and then it was, you know,

00:51:28.220 | we were standing beside each other and I'm like,

00:51:32.180 | and then I, you know, suddenly I chop him,

00:51:34.300 | I grab him by the neck.

00:51:35.940 | I say, "I'm gonna tap you by the neck."

00:51:37.820 | And then he's like, you know, very shy.

00:51:40.020 | And then I let go, I said,

00:51:40.940 | "No, I'm gonna grab, tap you by the arm."

00:51:43.340 | And I could feel he was like, he wasn't comfortable,

00:51:46.700 | you know, with being there.

00:51:47.900 | It was, you know, me saying that I'm gonna tap him out,

00:51:50.620 | there was like, I was so relaxed joking about it,

00:51:54.280 | but I'm joking that I'm gonna tap him out

00:51:56.300 | in a fight that we're gonna have in four days time.

00:51:58.820 | And yeah, I felt he was like, not comfortable at all.

00:52:03.820 | - Do you think you got in his head a little bit?

00:52:05.900 | - Yeah, I did.

00:52:06.740 | - It gave you a little bit of confidence?

00:52:07.620 | - Yeah.

00:52:08.460 | - You've said that jiu-jitsu is a reflection

00:52:10.260 | of your personality.

00:52:11.260 | So both your jiu-jitsu and your personality,

00:52:13.220 | there's a calmness.

00:52:14.340 | What is that?

00:52:15.180 | Why are you so calm?

00:52:16.380 | Is there like an ocean underneath that's boiling?

00:52:19.300 | Is this developed or is this your personality?

00:52:21.260 | Are you basically leveraging who you are already

00:52:24.580 | to develop a game around the jiu-jitsu

00:52:26.820 | or did jiu-jitsu make you calm?

00:52:29.380 | - I think both.

00:52:30.540 | I was always very calm since I was a kid,

00:52:32.860 | you know, since very young.

00:52:34.500 | I was never very, you know, fiery person.

00:52:37.180 | So that is a reflection, you know,

00:52:39.220 | you reflected on my jiu-jitsu, my life,

00:52:41.500 | on my fights, the way I fight.

00:52:43.380 | So it's a direct influence of my personality.

00:52:46.500 | And I think it's also in the day, you know,

00:52:49.660 | you develop the more you practice,

00:52:52.740 | you know, the more you fight, it's like, you know,

00:52:55.820 | you don't want to get nervous.

00:52:57.500 | You don't want that adrenaline.

00:52:58.500 | And so you just learn how to shut that off from your mind.

00:53:02.780 | So the less I thought about it, you know,

00:53:04.660 | it's like how many times I fought, you know,

00:53:07.420 | let's say the week before the fight,

00:53:09.220 | that's when you start more, when you're concerned the most,

00:53:13.460 | because now it's getting very close.

00:53:15.020 | Before it's just far away.

00:53:16.740 | You know, it's normal to think of the tournament,

00:53:19.140 | you get a bit nervous, but it goes away quick.

00:53:21.980 | But the fight, you know, the week before,

00:53:23.860 | now you're constantly thinking of that day.

00:53:26.820 | And every time you think, adrenaline pumps in,

00:53:29.100 | your heart accelerate, you know, it doesn't,

00:53:31.820 | you know, it makes it, it's like, why am I feeling this?

00:53:34.420 | What difference will it make?

00:53:35.620 | So you're kind of, you're shutting that thought

00:53:38.060 | out of your mind, because you don't want to feel

00:53:40.340 | the adrenaline, your heart accelerating.

00:53:42.700 | It's not going to add you anything.

00:53:44.620 | So it's, you know, it's the practice also that I think I,

00:53:48.020 | it helped me to shut that off my mind.

00:53:50.980 | - Has that helped you in regular life?

00:53:52.700 | - Yeah, of course.

00:53:53.980 | It's, you know, it's suddenly when you go into any,

00:53:57.700 | any situation that might be stressful, you know,

00:54:00.380 | like an important meeting, you know, super, whatever it is,

00:54:03.660 | it's like, how much would you worry about that before?

00:54:06.860 | Worry is not going to help you anywhere.

00:54:08.660 | It's the opposite.

00:54:10.020 | Just going to make you more nervous,

00:54:11.420 | your heart will accelerate, your ability to think clearly

00:54:14.220 | is going to be damaged by that.

00:54:16.820 | So it's like, the more calm, the more relaxed you are,

00:54:21.740 | the better you can think of.

00:54:23.940 | - Do you ever get angry?

00:54:25.300 | - Yeah.

00:54:26.340 | - Like in traffic?

00:54:28.060 | Do you ever get like, not calm, just like you're screaming?

00:54:31.300 | - Not in a screaming situation, no.

00:54:33.900 | - But just angry?

00:54:34.740 | - Yeah.

00:54:35.580 | - What does angry look like?

00:54:36.420 | Is it still calm?

00:54:37.340 | - Yeah, like, you know, a few seconds of complaining,

00:54:41.540 | but then it goes away.

00:54:42.820 | - Have you ever like thrown a cell phone at a wall

00:54:44.660 | or something like that of anger?

00:54:46.260 | - No, I never get that angry.

00:54:49.420 | 'Cause that's just silly.

00:54:50.340 | It's like, if I would have done that,

00:54:54.300 | I would not be able to control my emotions prior to a fight.

00:54:57.500 | There would be a lot of reflection.

00:55:00.500 | - Letting yourself lose--

00:55:02.060 | - Yeah, losing control that will reflect other times.

00:55:06.540 | - Do you think it has, in part,

00:55:11.500 | made you more emotionally closed off from the world?

00:55:14.500 | Like it's harder for you to be vulnerable to others?

00:55:17.740 | - Probably, yeah.

00:55:19.500 | But I heard that a few times.

00:55:21.540 | I'm emotionally closed.

00:55:23.860 | It's, yeah, maybe.

00:55:25.860 | I think that influenced it, yeah.

00:55:27.940 | - Have you ever cried in a movie?

00:55:29.740 | - Yeah, not for many years,

00:55:31.820 | but for, I think, maybe I'm getting older.

00:55:33.700 | - Do you remember the movie?

00:55:34.540 | - Something, it's a silly movie.

00:55:36.700 | I mean, it's, no, I mean--

00:55:38.140 | - Is it "The Notebook"?

00:55:39.180 | (laughing)

00:55:40.700 | - No, I mean, I would say the last few years

00:55:43.980 | I've been crying more than before for some reason.

00:55:46.780 | I don't know why.

00:55:47.620 | Like silly movies,

00:55:48.460 | like nothing suddenly brings tears to my eyes.

00:55:51.700 | - Yeah, well, I've already just,

00:55:54.100 | having met you and interacted with you,

00:55:56.100 | I can see that you're kind of opening your heart

00:55:58.900 | and mind to the world.

00:56:00.180 | You could see like,

00:56:01.780 | here's this historically great athlete.

00:56:06.780 | Now, like, the wars have been fought

00:56:09.220 | and you're now like waking up to the world.

00:56:11.420 | It's cool to see.

00:56:12.380 | - Probably I'm bringing my guard down now.

00:56:14.020 | I don't have to kick it up all the time.

00:56:16.020 | (laughing)

00:56:16.860 | - You don't have to fight.

00:56:17.700 | You can even do some podcasts.

00:56:20.820 | You said you watched like movies beforehand sometimes.

00:56:23.460 | Mentioned "Braveheart."

00:56:24.660 | What were you doing?

00:56:25.500 | Did you watch something beforehand, like the day before?

00:56:28.020 | - I used to, yeah.

00:56:28.860 | I was like, I think "Braveheart" and "Gladiator."

00:56:33.860 | I mean, there's a few others

00:56:37.780 | that I've always watched the day before.

00:56:39.780 | 'Cause the day before I used to do nothing.

00:56:41.540 | I just wanna be at home in bed, watching TV,

00:56:43.980 | like saving energy, stretching by myself.

00:56:47.460 | So it's like, I just wanna save energy.

00:56:49.860 | I don't wanna waste my energy going out, going around.

00:56:52.980 | So, those are the movies that I always like to watch.

00:56:56.300 | Kind of trying to bring some hyper excitement.

00:57:00.380 | It's like, I'm getting ready to war tomorrow.

00:57:02.620 | So I'm like, let me watch some movies

00:57:05.260 | that like brought that warrior spirit into me.

00:57:09.340 | - Yeah, what is that about human nature?

00:57:10.740 | "Braveheart" I love even more.

00:57:13.700 | Should you put your life on the line

00:57:16.220 | for a thing that matters or run away just so you can live?

00:57:20.580 | It's like, running you may live,

00:57:23.020 | but like years from now, when you look back at this moment,

00:57:26.580 | would you trade all the days just to come back

00:57:31.260 | to this moment?

00:57:32.500 | - And tell the English.

00:57:34.500 | - You can take our lives, but you can't take our freedom.

00:57:37.780 | I mean, oh man.

00:57:40.380 | What is that about human nature?

00:57:42.300 | Is there some aspect of like the glory

00:57:46.580 | you were able to achieve being more important

00:57:50.060 | than anything else?

00:57:51.860 | There's some aspect of that, that's greatness.

00:57:55.660 | - Yeah, I never pursued glory.

00:57:58.300 | So it just came, you know, it came with it,

00:58:02.260 | but that was never my goal.

00:58:04.180 | I never cared for glory.

00:58:07.100 | - Were you able to experience like,

00:58:09.860 | like I'm at the height of this thing?

00:58:13.140 | Whatever humanity is able to achieve in various things,

00:58:16.260 | holy shit, I'm flying.

00:58:18.300 | - I felt like no one can touch me.

00:58:23.300 | I can destroy people, yeah.

00:58:26.500 | - Prolonged periods of time or just momentarily?

00:58:29.160 | - I always knew, you know, from before I got to Black Belt,

00:58:36.140 | like, you know, I can be great because my, you know,

00:58:40.180 | I used to train with the best in the world.

00:58:42.100 | I used to, you know, for many years,

00:58:44.100 | and I used to see my progression with, and everybody else.

00:58:48.140 | So I knew I was getting somewhere.

00:58:51.260 | I knew I could be the best.

00:58:54.220 | And that was always my goal since very, very young.

00:58:57.340 | And I always believed that I could be.

00:59:00.980 | And that, over the years,

00:59:02.860 | that kept telling me over and over again,

00:59:05.580 | because I'm getting better and better,

00:59:08.660 | faster than everybody else.

00:59:11.020 | So I just need to carry on with what I'm doing.

00:59:14.060 | - But I think you've said that you wanted to,

00:59:17.380 | and maybe you thought you could be the greatest of all time,

00:59:20.580 | like at the very beginning, like when you sucked.

00:59:24.920 | - Yeah. (laughs)

00:59:26.500 | Yeah, not the greatest of all time,

00:59:28.540 | because I never really thought about that.

00:59:31.940 | But I thought I'm gonna be the best in the world

00:59:34.060 | when I sucked, when I sucked.

00:59:36.060 | - So, okay, so what is that,

00:59:37.580 | what is that, like that self-belief?

00:59:42.380 | Is there a component to that self-belief

00:59:44.620 | being a prerequisite?

00:59:46.260 | - It's difficult to say,

00:59:47.460 | because that was a decision, I think.

00:59:50.300 | Like, why did I believe that I could be?

00:59:53.940 | I can't tell you that, 'cause I don't know.

00:59:56.380 | - But you think you decided to be.

00:59:57.660 | - I decided to be, and I believed I could.

01:00:00.500 | - You think there was like a day somewhere,

01:00:02.980 | when you were young, where you're like,

01:00:04.420 | huh, you're sitting on a couch eating Cheetos.

01:00:06.740 | - I don't think it was a day, like a moment,

01:00:11.020 | because for many years,

01:00:15.580 | I wasn't really training much as a child.

01:00:17.620 | I used to train and then stop, done a bit of Judo.

01:00:21.900 | Never stay away from it much,

01:00:24.020 | but until, you know, like from 10 to 14,

01:00:29.020 | I barely trained Jujitsu much.

01:00:31.740 | I used to, there was no Jiu-Jitsu school

01:00:33.980 | near where I used to live.

01:00:35.940 | And I was doing, there was a Jiu-Jitsu, a Judo school.

01:00:38.900 | I used to go twice a week.

01:00:41.140 | I went to a Jiu-Jitsu tournament.

01:00:43.260 | I lost in five seconds, left crying.

01:00:45.380 | The guy, he pwned me in five seconds.

01:00:48.620 | Anyway, so when I was 14,

01:00:52.660 | I went to the south of Brazil to see my uncle, Helium,

01:00:56.500 | to spend summer holidays.

01:00:57.900 | I was there for like four weeks, I think.

01:01:00.020 | And when I got there,

01:01:01.020 | my cousin Hollis was living with him.

01:01:02.740 | Hollis, like bigger than me.

01:01:05.420 | It was, I think it's four years, four years older.

01:01:08.140 | So I was 14, I was already 18, 17, 18.

01:01:11.900 | Purple belt competitor.

01:01:13.900 | And I think that was the first time in my life

01:01:16.780 | that I felt what it meant to be a Gracie

01:01:20.460 | in terms of having a school, teaching, training,

01:01:25.340 | you know, living that, you know, Jiu-Jitsu lifestyle,

01:01:27.700 | what a Gracie meant to be.

01:01:29.340 | And I've just, I've loved that.

01:01:31.780 | I was out of shape.

01:01:33.420 | My uncle was like, you know,

01:01:34.620 | was incentivizing me to lose weight, to train.

01:01:38.380 | But you're not training, why?

01:01:39.620 | You know, it's like, you're out of shape, you need to diet.

01:01:41.860 | So I used to run every day.

01:01:44.140 | I was eating super well.

01:01:45.460 | I start, you know, I start, that when I start changing.

01:01:48.060 | So when I go back to Rio,

01:01:49.140 | I was super motivated to follow up, carry on.

01:01:53.140 | And he, you know, he invited me to go back there

01:01:55.900 | to live with him, but I couldn't.

01:01:58.460 | It was too soon to change schools and everything.

01:02:01.580 | My mom say, no, but maybe next year, if you wanna go,

01:02:04.460 | you can.

01:02:05.660 | So I kept that in my mind.

01:02:06.820 | Next year, I moved to the South to live with him.

01:02:11.020 | I was 15.

01:02:11.860 | And it was him, my uncle, Hylian, and my uncle, Carlin.

01:02:17.060 | They both used to live very close to each other.

01:02:18.820 | They used to have their own schools close to each other.

01:02:21.260 | So I was with both.

01:02:23.260 | And I stayed there for almost a year.

01:02:25.100 | I mean, I was the youngest in the academy.

01:02:26.620 | There was some, you know, blue, purple belts, normal guy,

01:02:30.740 | but they were already competing, training ahead of me.

01:02:33.500 | And I just joined the group of training.

01:02:36.660 | I didn't compete while I was there

01:02:38.180 | 'cause there was no competition back then.

01:02:40.380 | And I wasn't really ready, but it's not about competing.

01:02:42.380 | It's more about the training.

01:02:44.140 | And I start training every day, start improving.

01:02:46.740 | And a year after that, when I came back to Rio,

01:02:49.580 | I was already on a mission.

01:02:50.860 | I was like, I love this.

01:02:52.540 | I'm just carry on training every day with my uncle, Carlos.

01:02:55.900 | Carlos Gracie Jr., Gracie Barra.

01:02:57.580 | And when I got there,

01:02:59.820 | I was training a little bit there before,

01:03:01.460 | but I just 14, 15.

01:03:03.580 | But when I got there, there was a, you know,

01:03:06.220 | there was one of, that was one of the most competitors,

01:03:08.700 | one of the biggest Jiu-Jitsu schools at the time.

01:03:11.660 | There was so many high-level world champions,

01:03:15.060 | competitors in every single belt.

01:03:17.860 | And so, and I've kind of joined in with that.

01:03:22.100 | And I've carried on.

01:03:23.260 | I don't remember when,

01:03:24.300 | but I remember, you know, looking and saying,

01:03:27.820 | I'm going to be the best in the world.

01:03:29.700 | But I used to be, I was at the bottom of the stairs.

01:03:33.060 | You know, no one really believed me.

01:03:34.380 | I didn't shout, you know, to the skies,

01:03:36.980 | but, you know, I told a few people,

01:03:38.460 | I'm like, I'm going to be the best.

01:03:40.500 | And that's, I think I was just losing,

01:03:43.940 | but I've never, ever doubt.

01:03:46.300 | I've never diverged from that mission, I would say.

01:03:50.420 | - Did anyone believe you when you said you could be great?

01:03:53.060 | - Nobody.

01:03:53.900 | - It didn't matter?

01:03:54.740 | - It didn't matter.

01:03:55.660 | I don't care, I don't need.

01:03:56.860 | - Even people that like love you?

01:03:58.620 | - Everybody, my mom, my dad, I mean, no one thought,

01:04:02.060 | no one in my family thought I was going to be here today.

01:04:05.620 | Nobody, because I just started late.

01:04:08.900 | You know, I've never had any start that people,

01:04:12.140 | oh, that kid's going to be really good.

01:04:13.980 | No, I was a chubby kid that didn't barely train.

01:04:17.740 | I mean, people used to look at me,

01:04:18.980 | he's just another grace, this, you know, what more?

01:04:22.940 | - What do you learn from that?

01:04:24.180 | Do you think most people lose that self-belief?

01:04:29.060 | They quit when everyone around them doesn't believe?

01:04:31.860 | - Yeah, I think if those that need approval, yes.

01:04:36.860 | - I see you shouldn't have approval.

01:04:39.460 | - I never need approval from anyone.

01:04:41.940 | I don't care if you believe me or not,

01:04:43.980 | if you're not my problem.

01:04:46.820 | - It's tough, it's tough.

01:04:48.700 | I don't need approval, but,

01:04:52.900 | you're surrounded by people older, wiser, better than you,

01:04:56.860 | and they're kind of directly or indirectly saying,

01:05:00.140 | you stop being silly, kid.

01:05:02.300 | - No, no one ever told me that,

01:05:03.620 | because that was not something

01:05:05.860 | that I used to say all the time.

01:05:07.700 | I maybe say it just very, very few times.

01:05:10.780 | - I just thought, you know, maybe that's the secret.

01:05:13.020 | - Of course, I mean, if you start shouting,

01:05:14.860 | then you're just being silly.

01:05:16.260 | Then it's not what you really want.

01:05:18.180 | Then you're saying that for another reasons,

01:05:20.380 | if you say it over and over again,

01:05:22.580 | because you shouldn't.

01:05:23.820 | I mean, why?

01:05:24.900 | - Well, to push back,

01:05:26.540 | one of the reasons you might want to say it

01:05:28.700 | is to find the right people that believe in you.

01:05:30.900 | - Yeah, but no, if you say it over and over again,

01:05:33.420 | then it's just, then you're just bragging.

01:05:36.400 | - Sure.

01:05:37.340 | - 'Cause one thing is to say it,

01:05:40.260 | but the other one is to do it.

01:05:42.580 | So it's, you know, you say it once or very few times,

01:05:46.380 | but now you have to do it saying

01:05:47.860 | it's not helping you getting there.

01:05:50.380 | - Was there sacrifices you had to make?

01:05:52.460 | - Everything, everything.

01:05:54.420 | That was my priority in life.

01:05:56.180 | Everything was secondary.

01:05:57.860 | - Like social life, career paths.

01:06:01.900 | - Yeah, everything.

01:06:03.060 | - And is it from 14, 15, 16,

01:06:06.820 | as you get better and better and better and better,

01:06:09.420 | it was just becoming sharper, the focus on this thing.

01:06:13.140 | - Yeah, it's just over and over again,

01:06:15.460 | over and over again.

01:06:16.540 | It's, you know, it's just training, training, training.

01:06:19.620 | And I mean, how many times I lost, I have no clue.

01:06:24.620 | - So on the mat, you were getting beat up.

01:06:27.700 | - I'm getting smashed by everybody.

01:06:30.100 | People my age, I was chubby, I was physically weak.

01:06:33.860 | I mean, I'm tall, but physically,

01:06:36.300 | I'm not physically strong.

01:06:38.180 | I'm normally strong for my size,

01:06:39.860 | but physically, if you wanna measure strength, I'm weak.

01:06:44.740 | Because, you know, we can measure strength,

01:06:46.980 | living weight, I'm weak.

01:06:49.500 | I don't lift, I lift weight same as people

01:06:53.500 | much lighter than me.

01:06:54.820 | Everybody my weight, lives heavier weight than me.

01:06:57.980 | - And the people that train with you

01:06:59.060 | often talk about how--

01:07:00.460 | - They're super strong.

01:07:02.100 | Because I generate a lot of strength.

01:07:04.140 | I can create, I put myself in the right angles.

01:07:08.540 | So then I can be strong, I'm not strong.

01:07:12.020 | And the only person who I listen to saying that

01:07:16.660 | is Compreto, one guy that I fought,

01:07:19.220 | Rodrigo Medeiros, I fought him a few times.

01:07:22.780 | And he's the only one that I heard saying about me,

01:07:25.580 | that's like, "No, Roger's not strong.

01:07:27.380 | "He's not, he's technical and he can create strength,

01:07:31.980 | "but he's not strong."

01:07:33.020 | - He meant that as a compliment?

01:07:35.100 | - Yeah, I think so.

01:07:36.740 | No, I think he was honest, because I think he's

01:07:40.220 | the only one who could see that.

01:07:41.620 | - Yes.

01:07:42.460 | - So I think that's a compliment.

01:07:43.700 | - So he's technically really strong,

01:07:45.420 | so you had an incredible match with him.

01:07:47.740 | - Yeah.

01:07:49.580 | - Is there insight you have about how you went

01:07:54.580 | from a person who was not very good,

01:07:59.420 | but had a dream, a confident dream,

01:08:04.020 | a vision to somebody that was actually good?

01:08:07.900 | Was there something to the practice sessions?

01:08:10.620 | Were you getting reps on specific techniques?

01:08:13.940 | - I'd never done anything special,

01:08:15.700 | because I'm in a gym training equally with everybody else.

01:08:18.860 | So I've never did anything on the side

01:08:21.500 | different than anybody else.

01:08:23.260 | So I was in the school training

01:08:25.900 | the exact same way as everybody else.

01:08:27.820 | - Wow, in terms of schedule, yes.

01:08:29.340 | But what was, can you reverse engineer

01:08:32.300 | what was going through your mind?

01:08:33.860 | 'Cause there's so many different ways

01:08:35.180 | to actually mentally approach

01:08:36.460 | the same exact training session.

01:08:37.820 | - I'm gonna try to beat you.

01:08:40.460 | - Okay, so in some part it's competitive.

01:08:43.340 | - Yeah.

01:08:44.180 | - But at the core of it is I want to be better

01:08:47.740 | than these particular people.

01:08:49.420 | - You're gonna keep beating me.

01:08:50.380 | I'm gonna keep coming back at you.

01:08:52.300 | - And to do that I have to solve problems.

01:08:54.420 | I have to figure out how to do stuff well.

01:08:55.980 | - You catch me once, I'm gonna keep on coming,

01:08:59.060 | trying to not get caught in that.

01:09:02.660 | - At which point did you develop a game

01:09:05.020 | that was basically the famous white belt game

01:09:08.700 | of the very basics, the very fundamentals of jiu-jitsu?

01:09:12.180 | Like saying I'm going to beat you.

01:09:16.460 | - Never, there was never a conscious decision

01:09:19.820 | to try to have a basic jiu-jitsu.

01:09:22.780 | First, I think there's a big misconception there.

01:09:26.940 | - Okay, what's the misconception?

01:09:28.260 | - My jiu-jitsu's not basic.

01:09:29.100 | - Mr. Roger Gracie, it's not, you're right.

01:09:31.020 | - It's not basic, it's not old school.

01:09:32.940 | I think people, they just don't see that.

01:09:35.300 | It's extremely complex in a way that

01:09:41.420 | people, they cannot copy.

01:09:42.420 | I teach people, I can teach you the cross-collar choke.

01:09:47.420 | But the one thing that people, they don't realize

01:09:49.940 | is not the move, is you need to practice the move

01:09:54.260 | until you learn.

01:09:55.900 | It's the practice over and over again.

01:09:58.340 | Like it took me years.

01:10:01.180 | When I say years, I'm like years after I was a black belt,

01:10:05.220 | I was able to choke people out

01:10:06.740 | with a cross-collar choke in the mouth, effectively.

01:10:10.020 | Years after I got my black belt.

01:10:11.580 | So that's something that you learn first day, first week.

01:10:15.140 | So I can't teach you, it makes no difference.

01:10:18.100 | You know the theory, but until you apply it in,

01:10:22.100 | I mean, it will help you, of course,

01:10:23.140 | the more details you learn,

01:10:25.460 | the more tools you have to practice,

01:10:27.100 | but it's still very complex

01:10:29.420 | because it's not about the move itself,

01:10:31.900 | it's about how can you control the movement

01:10:34.540 | of the other person.

01:10:36.300 | He's resisting, you're blocking,

01:10:38.100 | you cannot predict what he would do

01:10:39.420 | and he's doing a whole bunch of moves to block you.

01:10:42.340 | Every single move you do, step of the way,

01:10:44.420 | because it's a progression of move from beginning to end

01:10:49.420 | till I apply the choke.

01:10:51.300 | It's a progression of move

01:10:52.700 | and there's not one way to get that, there's many ways,

01:10:55.980 | because how many ways can you block?

01:10:58.700 | You can put your arm in every single angle,

01:11:00.540 | we have both arms, you can bridge.

01:11:02.460 | So it's dealing with all that,

01:11:04.180 | that is the complexity of the position.

01:11:09.900 | But that goes for everything,

01:11:11.020 | like every single move, my strong moves, I would say,

01:11:16.020 | it took me years developing them, years.

01:11:19.820 | So it's, and you're gonna tell me that's basic,

01:11:22.660 | so go try and do it.

01:11:23.900 | What the other person is defending, that's the thing,

01:11:26.380 | because most of the things that I do,

01:11:29.540 | I've been doing them for years

01:11:31.260 | and they know that I'm gonna do

01:11:33.500 | and I can still get it most of the times.

01:11:37.500 | That's the hardest, is when they know what's coming

01:11:40.460 | and you can still do it.

01:11:42.420 | - And you said that the way you're able to do that,

01:11:46.260 | you just have to do it right.

01:11:48.300 | - Yeah.

01:11:49.780 | - What do you learn by doing all the steps along the way?

01:11:54.140 | And just for people who don't know,

01:11:55.460 | cross-collar choke from the mount.

01:11:57.720 | So Jiu-Jitsu starts in a neutral place,

01:12:00.900 | there's people on their feet

01:12:01.980 | and then you either, then you get to the ground somehow

01:12:05.100 | and then there's the person on top and on bottom

01:12:07.460 | and then there's a guard with the legs

01:12:09.140 | between the two people and then you can get past the guard.

01:12:12.580 | As you get past the guard and you,

01:12:14.340 | into side control and so on,

01:12:16.580 | you get more and more and more dominant positions.

01:12:19.540 | And so mount is considered to be

01:12:21.460 | one of the most dominant positions,

01:12:22.900 | it's when you're past their legs,

01:12:25.660 | sitting on top of their stomach,

01:12:27.360 | putting pressure on them

01:12:30.060 | and cross-collar choke is using their jacket to,

01:12:33.060 | how would you explain that?

01:12:35.300 | To choke them with their--

01:12:36.140 | - You have the collars, I put my both hands on your collars

01:12:39.020 | and when I squeeze, you press your neck

01:12:43.260 | so it blocks the vein, you go to sleep.

01:12:45.140 | So it's a, you choke people with your hands and the wrist,

01:12:48.020 | you put them, you grab the collar

01:12:50.140 | so you got the wrist around people's neck and you squeeze.

01:12:53.220 | - Yeah, the discovery of that is fascinating.

01:12:55.500 | I mean, 'cause it's interesting.

01:12:57.060 | It's like, you can imagine there's all kinds of ways

01:13:01.020 | to choke a human being.

01:13:04.340 | What animals do it with their mouth, right?

01:13:07.260 | They put their jaws around the,

01:13:10.220 | and the fact that you can discover this methodology

01:13:13.020 | of the right kind of positioning

01:13:14.360 | and then it becomes an art form,

01:13:15.900 | of why this, why not this, right?

01:13:20.260 | Or why not this or something?

01:13:22.540 | To figure all that out--

01:13:23.380 | - I think we practice, that will come easy.

01:13:25.540 | - Over time you figure out what works and what not

01:13:27.900 | and then more further and further details

01:13:31.740 | and subtleties start to emerge.

01:13:33.520 | Anyway, on that process of beating,

01:13:36.660 | of being able to beat some of the best people in the world

01:13:39.020 | and the thing they know is coming,

01:13:40.780 | what's the difference between the White Belt doing that

01:13:45.020 | and Hodge and Gracie doing that?

01:13:46.420 | The thing that's so hard to explain.

01:13:48.340 | What do you think you're picking up?

01:13:50.220 | Is it some tiny, tiny details of muscle movements?

01:13:53.460 | - It is, it's many tiny details

01:13:56.300 | because it's the whole movement itself,

01:13:59.900 | it's the perception from beginning to end.

01:14:03.100 | Like every step of that movement,

01:14:05.160 | it's important and precise.

01:14:07.300 | So it's, you miss one detail on the way, you collapse.

01:14:12.020 | So when I say that with the Black Belt,

01:14:13.900 | the Black Belt has no control over the whole movement.

01:14:16.260 | He's thinking beginning and end.

01:14:19.420 | So he goes straight to your neck,

01:14:21.900 | regardless he cannot read the other person.

01:14:24.900 | If it's time to let go, if it's the time to go for a neck,

01:14:28.820 | should I be pushing here before I get my hand in?

01:14:32.660 | Is this the right time to go deep

01:14:34.380 | or should I deal with this first before the second hand?

01:14:37.260 | - That's at the beginning, so it's at the White Belt,

01:14:39.780 | at the very beginning of the journey.

01:14:41.620 | - Yeah, the White Belt, you just think, finish.

01:14:44.300 | - Yeah.

01:14:45.140 | (laughing)

01:14:47.380 | And then as you get progress,

01:14:49.020 | you see that there's like this giant tree of possibilities

01:14:53.060 | that you're almost feeling your way down.

01:14:56.060 | I mean, would you be able to teach?

01:14:58.060 | Do you even know what you're doing?

01:15:02.460 | - By the details.

01:15:03.780 | - Okay.

01:15:04.780 | But it's hard to convert into words probably.

01:15:07.620 | - No.

01:15:08.780 | - It's possible.

01:15:09.620 | - Then you don't know what you're doing.

01:15:10.540 | - Okay.

01:15:11.380 | (laughing)

01:15:14.300 | So what is the most important details

01:15:18.340 | that you could say, maybe positioning of the hand,

01:15:22.100 | the gripping, is it the positioning of your body,

01:15:24.980 | the posture, is there some interesting insights--

01:15:27.180 | - It's a combination because first you have to put your body

01:15:31.100 | in a very strong position that you don't require

01:15:33.460 | your hands to hold the mount.

01:15:35.900 | So the choke is that first because I cannot use my hands

01:15:40.740 | on the floor to stop you escaping.

01:15:42.740 | - Yeah.

01:15:43.580 | - So if I have to, my body has to handle that.

01:15:46.660 | The way I position myself, I have to do it in a way

01:15:49.500 | that don't require my hands for balance.

01:15:52.420 | - Okay, why is the mount such a dominant position?

01:15:55.300 | Doesn't make any sense, right?

01:15:56.540 | Like you're just sitting on top of the stomach of a person.

01:15:58.940 | - It makes all sense.

01:15:59.780 | If you think, forget fighting, forget jujitsu.

01:16:03.700 | Like you've never trained.

01:16:05.340 | What's the one position, the most dominant position

01:16:10.300 | you can get over another human being?

01:16:12.420 | One, the most.

01:16:14.620 | For you, which one it is?

01:16:16.460 | Like the most dominant position

01:16:19.780 | that you can get over another human being.

01:16:22.660 | - So if we were just, 'cause the way I think about it

01:16:25.100 | is putting myself in like a six, seven, eight year old self

01:16:28.900 | without knowing any martial arts

01:16:30.860 | and I had an older brother who would beat the shit out of me.

01:16:34.500 | Yeah, it probably was mount.

01:16:36.060 | What?

01:16:38.060 | (laughs)

01:16:39.980 | But, well, yes, okay, so we both didn't know.

01:16:43.420 | But if we knew something, it'd probably be back control.

01:16:46.420 | - If in the back control, you're under the other person,

01:16:48.580 | do you think being under is the most dominant position

01:16:50.820 | you can be over another person?

01:16:52.380 | - You mean like a back control?

01:16:55.620 | - If I'm on your back.

01:16:56.860 | - Oh, like that.

01:16:57.700 | - I can move, you can roll, I cannot stop you rolling.

01:17:00.300 | Maybe you can even stand up.

01:17:02.980 | How dominant is that?

01:17:04.460 | - Yeah, but if we're the same size, both untrained.

01:17:07.180 | - If, doesn't matter.

01:17:08.820 | - Have you seen kids, they do that, okay.

01:17:11.100 | Mount looks and feels like dominance

01:17:15.380 | when you're two eight year olds fighting.

01:17:17.780 | Okay, I don't know why it feels that way.

01:17:20.300 | It could be some animalistic thing.

01:17:21.940 | Maybe it is actual dominance, I don't know.

01:17:23.580 | But it feels like if you're untrained,

01:17:25.700 | you can just buck your way out of it.

01:17:27.700 | It feels unstable.

01:17:28.860 | It feels unstable to hold mount

01:17:30.780 | unless you know what you're doing, right?

01:17:32.860 | No?

01:17:33.700 | - If you're mount, you put both of your hands on the floor.

01:17:35.580 | - Yeah.

01:17:36.580 | - Just your hands.

01:17:37.740 | You think it's easy to take somebody off?

01:17:40.300 | - Yeah, maybe not.

01:17:41.500 | - You think it's easy to remove the hand and bring them out?

01:17:44.740 | The hands on the floor, arm straight, I'm leaning in.

01:17:48.020 | - Yeah, you're right.

01:17:48.860 | - It's hard.

01:17:50.060 | I mean, you don't need to know fighting

01:17:51.380 | to hold yourself there.

01:17:53.020 | - Yeah.

01:17:54.100 | - But you're right, when you take the arms off

01:17:56.580 | and balancing, then it gets tricky.

01:17:58.860 | 'Cause when you're trying to,

01:18:01.020 | I think what happens, I'm thinking back to eight year old.

01:18:04.540 | 'Cause my brother's five years older than me

01:18:06.660 | and he would do the usual stop hitting yourself thing.

01:18:09.860 | I think he would be in mount,

01:18:11.860 | like hitting me with my own hands.

01:18:13.560 | Out of place of love, of course.

01:18:17.260 | I love him deeply and it was very formative

01:18:20.140 | and a positive experience for me.

01:18:22.140 | - Okay, I think, yeah, the weakness is when he takes,

01:18:26.340 | well, when the person who has the amount

01:18:29.840 | takes their arms off to do something.

01:18:32.380 | - But even if you keep your hands up in the air,

01:18:34.420 | when I'm falling.

01:18:36.020 | - Yeah, you can.

01:18:36.860 | - When I'm falling, so.

01:18:38.660 | - I'm speaking about untrained people.

01:18:40.880 | I feel like they get greedy.

01:18:42.620 | They try to do stuff.

01:18:43.860 | - The other day I watched my nine year old daughter.

01:18:46.100 | - Yeah.

01:18:46.940 | - We're in a friend's house.

01:18:48.860 | There's a whole bunch of kids there, they're playing.

01:18:51.260 | And when I looked, she's mounting a boy,

01:18:54.220 | her age, her size, he cannot escape.

01:18:57.580 | - Wow, she probably has seen some footage.

01:18:59.460 | - No, she's been training for, I'll say, a year and a half.

01:19:02.620 | - Okay.

01:19:03.460 | - But she's not much.

01:19:04.280 | I mean, she's a nine year old daughter, a girl over a boy.

01:19:06.860 | - Has she seen footage of you?

01:19:07.980 | Maybe she picked up from that.

01:19:08.820 | - No, but she's been training for a year and a half,

01:19:11.320 | so she has an idea what mount is.

01:19:13.620 | But, I mean, in terms about skills,

01:19:16.640 | I don't never taught her the mount.

01:19:19.020 | She has lessons at the academy, like any other kid.

01:19:23.980 | - Did she make him cry, or?

01:19:25.260 | - No, but he couldn't escape.

01:19:26.700 | Which other position would she be able to hold the boy?

01:19:31.500 | In the back, he would roll it out.

01:19:35.100 | - That's true.

01:19:35.940 | - Like, he couldn't come out from underneath her.

01:19:38.060 | She's, they're kids.

01:19:39.940 | Like, there is no other most dominant position

01:19:42.140 | that you can pin the other person.

01:19:43.620 | - Couldn't you argue, from that perspective, sight control?

01:19:47.120 | - No.

01:19:48.020 | - No?

01:19:48.860 | - In sight control, you have to hold the other person.

01:19:51.860 | And it's, you're not free.

01:19:53.820 | You cannot release them.

01:19:56.860 | - But in sight control, your hips are not on top of theirs.

01:20:00.780 | So, they can't buck you off, right?

01:20:05.780 | Could you, if you're holding them a little bit,

01:20:08.140 | and you can hit them with one hand, like slap 'em.

01:20:10.580 | - His head is here.

01:20:12.220 | You're gonna hurt him here.

01:20:14.540 | By the time you're doing that,

01:20:15.740 | but then he has his arms free,

01:20:17.580 | and if you turn towards your legs,

01:20:19.980 | then he's away from your arms.

01:20:21.700 | He not even has the perfect angle.

01:20:23.960 | I mean, it is a good position.

01:20:25.340 | You can hit, you can dominate,

01:20:27.420 | but it's not the best position to be over the other person.

01:20:32.420 | He can knee you in the head.

01:20:34.620 | At the same time you punch him,

01:20:35.620 | then there's a knee coming to your head.

01:20:38.340 | - I love playing devil's advocate with Roger Gracie

01:20:40.420 | about two eight-year-olds fighting.

01:20:42.860 | - And your head is closer to his head.

01:20:45.820 | Maybe he can throw you a punch.

01:20:48.060 | - All right, thank you.

01:20:48.900 | - Would you choose to be in side control over mount?

01:20:52.100 | Getting in the head?

01:20:53.140 | - Well, for a person who in competition

01:20:55.500 | prefers knee on belly over mount,

01:20:57.580 | but that's my weakness.

01:20:59.620 | That's my failure as a human being.

01:21:01.900 | Holding mount can be tricky.

01:21:04.020 | - It's very hard.

01:21:05.780 | Of course it's hard.

01:21:07.420 | But what is easy?

01:21:08.740 | Tell me easy.

01:21:09.580 | - Side control and knee on belly is easier.

01:21:11.140 | But to submit--

01:21:11.980 | - Knee on belly is easy?

01:21:14.100 | - Easier.

01:21:15.120 | I'm not saying black belt level.

01:21:16.780 | I'm saying, well maybe even black belt level.

01:21:18.860 | - Easier for what?

01:21:19.860 | To hold somebody?

01:21:20.800 | - To make them squirm and hurt,

01:21:24.220 | to create openings.

01:21:26.060 | - Yeah, but go to there with a big guy.

01:21:27.900 | - Yeah, you can't.

01:21:28.740 | - You can't.

01:21:29.580 | He's gonna push you back and come up.

01:21:33.340 | In the mount he can't sit up.

01:21:35.340 | Not when you're mounted him.

01:21:36.820 | - The thing is also about mount

01:21:38.140 | is people on the bottom of mount panic more.

01:21:41.260 | So they fight harder.

01:21:42.100 | - Of course they panic.

01:21:43.820 | They expose.

01:21:45.820 | It's the most exposure you have.

01:21:48.880 | Because the person's arms are free.

01:21:50.800 | You cannot touch him.

01:21:52.580 | His head is too high.

01:21:54.080 | There's nothing he can do.

01:21:55.880 | His legs won't get you anywhere.

01:21:57.640 | He might touch your lower back.

01:21:59.040 | It's like nothing.

01:22:00.720 | You're most exposed being in the mount.

01:22:04.020 | I read you holding side control a thousand times

01:22:07.440 | the amount of me having to look up

01:22:09.200 | for your fist come down on me.

01:22:11.840 | - Yeah.

01:22:12.680 | - So I hug you, you cannot hurt me.

01:22:14.780 | Okay, you hold me, but I'm hugging you.

01:22:19.060 | If I hug you tight, what can you do against me?

01:22:22.060 | Hold.

01:22:22.900 | - It seems maybe it's just from,

01:22:25.780 | and again I'm arguing just for the fun of it.

01:22:28.340 | But it seems like a more difficult skill to learn

01:22:33.340 | to apply a huge amount of pressure and weight from mount.

01:22:39.260 | - You don't have to apply pressure and weight from mount?

01:22:41.780 | - Not apply pressure, but be heavy.

01:22:45.000 | Right?

01:22:45.840 | - You don't necessarily need to be heavy.

01:22:46.880 | - You don't?

01:22:48.560 | - No.

01:22:49.400 | - Why do you, as people say, you feel extremely heavy?

01:22:53.320 | - If I'm being heavy, I cannot attack.

01:22:56.200 | I have to choose.

01:22:59.800 | I can be heavy just to pin them,

01:23:04.800 | take the energy out to make them suffer.

01:23:08.480 | But the moment that I decide to attack,

01:23:10.720 | I can only be heavy if I'm sitting up straight.

01:23:13.540 | That's when all my weight drops down.

01:23:15.920 | If I'm high, then I'm sitting on your chest

01:23:18.260 | and on your solar plexus.

01:23:20.080 | That's the worst position to be sitting on the person

01:23:23.000 | 'cause that's where he breathes.

01:23:24.580 | So in a high mount, sitting up straight,

01:23:27.960 | that's when you can, I can be very heavy.

01:23:29.720 | I can make people feel my weight and be very uncomfortable,

01:23:34.220 | but I'm not in a position to attack.

01:23:35.720 | The moment that I wanna attack, my body has to lean forward.

01:23:38.580 | I have to approach the neck or the arms.

01:23:41.600 | The moment that I do that, my weight comes off my hips.

01:23:45.020 | It goes to my knees, the weight is off you.

01:23:47.840 | - But at that point, if you have--

01:23:49.560 | - Now I'm attacking, I'm no longer heavy on you.

01:23:52.540 | - But you want to be at that point

01:23:54.160 | to remove any of the defenses they have

01:23:55.960 | or some of the defenses by getting their elbows--

01:23:58.480 | - Now I'm like either getting, trying to get your call

01:24:01.360 | or bringing your elbow across or tuck the armlock.

01:24:03.680 | - So what are some interesting details along the way

01:24:05.720 | that are tough to get to figure out?

01:24:08.320 | What were the big leaps for you

01:24:10.420 | from white belt to the best in the world?

01:24:14.240 | - It's you trying to attack the neck,

01:24:16.560 | putting one hand in the collar,

01:24:18.200 | you're priving yourself that hand to pace it on the floor.

01:24:21.280 | So now you're vulnerable to get bridged, to get rollover,

01:24:23.760 | 'cause if your hands are free trying to roll you over,

01:24:26.000 | you're stopped.

01:24:27.120 | The moment that you put your hand in the person's collar,

01:24:29.700 | now you have to be very careful with your body positioning,

01:24:33.120 | very careful. - The distribution

01:24:34.560 | of the weight. - Yeah, and how high you sit,

01:24:38.200 | how tall your upper body goes.

01:24:41.240 | And then the biggest challenge comes

01:24:43.760 | as you're trying the second hand.

01:24:45.280 | That's the, for the choke, that's the biggest challenge,

01:24:48.580 | the second hand, because you already have,

01:24:51.560 | you already don't have one hand.

01:24:54.120 | Now you are trying the second hand

01:24:57.160 | and if one of my hand is in, you as a,

01:25:02.160 | defending yourself, you have two hands.

01:25:05.260 | One hand is already on one side.

01:25:07.280 | This side is getting attack.

01:25:09.480 | You have two hands blocking that.

01:25:11.600 | I have one hand.

01:25:12.880 | There's no help for that hand.

01:25:14.880 | I cannot remove anything.

01:25:16.880 | That's the biggest challenge, getting,

01:25:18.640 | one hand getting past you and not getting rollover.

01:25:23.640 | - But I also have two hands on bottom,

01:25:27.000 | I have two hands and can also turn

01:25:28.720 | and do all kinds of stuff. - Yeah.

01:25:31.600 | - And my whole mind and everything

01:25:33.360 | is focused on that second hand.

01:25:34.840 | - Yeah, it's a big challenge.

01:25:36.720 | - It's hard, very hard.

01:25:38.600 | - Is there an art to getting the first hand

01:25:41.040 | into a place where you--

01:25:43.000 | - It's less of an art because it's easier.

01:25:45.960 | I'll say most times I get my first hand in

01:25:49.120 | is when you're trying some move.

01:25:51.160 | You're trying to escape, you're pushing.

01:25:53.640 | I get the first hand in as an opportunity.

01:25:56.720 | - And it's gonna sit there for a while.

01:25:59.200 | And now-- - And I go as deep as I can

01:26:01.320 | so the first hand, because the second hand is the hardest,

01:26:04.880 | I have to compensate the first hand

01:26:06.520 | to be as deep as I can.

01:26:08.600 | If I cannot get the first hand in deep,

01:26:11.360 | I won't try the second.

01:26:13.320 | I need that first hand deep, then I go for the second.

01:26:15.720 | - And it's deep and everything is super tight?

01:26:18.600 | - Super tight.

01:26:19.680 | The first hand has to be super tight,

01:26:21.560 | otherwise the chance of failing is very big.

01:26:24.640 | - Okay, does the opponent usually feel

01:26:26.760 | like they're screwed at that point also?

01:26:28.280 | - Not as you put in the first hand in.

01:26:30.680 | The moment that I position myself

01:26:33.520 | just prior to attempt the second hand,

01:26:36.280 | I think the way my body is positioned,

01:26:38.840 | the way I'm collapsing with my weight

01:26:41.240 | and they feel it's like it's, you know, this is terrible.

01:26:45.520 | - Yeah, how long did it take you to figure out

01:26:47.000 | how to reposition your weight once the first hand is in?

01:26:50.600 | - Very quickly, because we get breached out.

01:26:53.880 | - Okay, so there's a good feedback loop there.

01:26:56.120 | - Because one mistake you're out.

01:26:58.440 | Like, one off positioning, you're out.

01:27:02.440 | - But you still have to do that against

01:27:03.560 | the best people in the world.

01:27:05.000 | Where's the way out for most people?

01:27:07.640 | Like, if you were in Mount against Bouchacha,

01:27:10.760 | what are some of the best defenses in the world?

01:27:13.120 | - The way out is to, obviously, is to defend themselves

01:27:18.640 | and prevent the first hand to get deep.

01:27:21.920 | And I'll say the best thing that they could do

01:27:26.720 | is try to change my positioning on the Mount

01:27:31.440 | in a way that, you know, push me to a very low Mount.

01:27:34.640 | You know, try to change the way I'm dominating you,

01:27:37.920 | not to be, you know, to get me off the high Mount,

01:27:40.320 | pretty much.

01:27:41.160 | - Are you always, is it a slow, is it a fast thing

01:27:43.720 | to go from low to fast Mount?

01:27:45.880 | - Slow, slow, slow.

01:27:46.720 | - A high Mount?

01:27:47.560 | - Slow, very slow.

01:27:48.400 | Because I need to beat your arms,

01:27:49.220 | 'cause you're holding me down.

01:27:50.320 | - And the arms need to come out.

01:27:51.920 | - It's a slow process.

01:27:54.080 | - Okay, and you just, is there like a--

01:27:56.720 | - Yeah, so I use my legs against your arms.

01:28:01.240 | So it's my legs pushing your arms.

01:28:03.600 | - But how do you get 'em,

01:28:04.480 | how do you get your legs into the elbows?

01:28:06.960 | - As long as it's, you know, it has to come

01:28:09.400 | under the tip of your elbow,

01:28:10.960 | 'cause now the legs will start forcing your arms up.

01:28:14.040 | - So your legs aren't like spread out, they're in?

01:28:16.880 | - Your elbow cannot get inside my leg,

01:28:19.440 | because that means I'm in a very low Mount.

01:28:22.900 | And then I cannot attack, 'cause I cannot ignore that.

01:28:26.760 | 'Cause the moment that I attack,

01:28:28.040 | that will, it will start pushing my leg to push me up.

01:28:31.120 | - What's the secret to getting the second hand in?

01:28:34.700 | - There's two ways, either you go four fingers inside,

01:28:38.640 | which is the hardest,

01:28:39.480 | because the moment that your two hands are defending,

01:28:42.720 | you'll be blocking the way.

01:28:46.600 | And I cannot clear and attack two hands against one.

01:28:50.680 | So I go thumb in, I go behind the ear.

01:28:54.840 | So my grip goes, because for you to defend,

01:28:58.520 | you need to get there.

01:29:00.680 | And when you get there, you elevate your elbow,

01:29:02.920 | you expose the arm lock.

01:29:04.120 | So it's hard.

01:29:06.120 | - So you put the thumb in, and then there's the dreaded,

01:29:10.840 | like the other person just waits for you to loop

01:29:14.080 | the arm over.

01:29:15.640 | - Yeah, but that, it's over.

01:29:17.720 | - Once you get the thumb in, it's over.

01:29:21.360 | Okay.

01:29:22.280 | But when I'm there, it's, if I get the,

01:29:25.480 | 'cause they're bridging, you know, they're trying.

01:29:27.760 | I'm not using the hand to pose.

01:29:30.040 | - Now your head is--

01:29:31.520 | - My head is very close to the floor,

01:29:32.920 | when I've tried to bridge,

01:29:34.000 | and you know, my forehead would touch the floor,

01:29:35.600 | that would be used as a hand.

01:29:36.800 | - But it's not on the floor.

01:29:38.000 | - Not necessarily.

01:29:39.040 | Because if it's on the floor, my body's collapse over you.

01:29:43.720 | So there's no place for my hand,

01:29:45.720 | for me to work on your neck.

01:29:46.760 | So I need some space between us.

01:29:48.800 | So I don't completely collapse.

01:29:49.640 | - And maybe you can bob up and down,

01:29:51.120 | kind of like a bob's bob.

01:29:52.360 | - I try to keep a gap between us.

01:29:54.120 | - So that pursuit, that takes many, many, many, many years.

01:29:59.960 | I don't know if you've seen "Jiro Dreams of Sushi."

01:30:02.480 | The, doing the simple thing,

01:30:07.040 | that's not so simple, but it kind of looks simple,

01:30:09.680 | of the over and over and over and over and over,

01:30:11.520 | and presumably getting much better--

01:30:13.200 | - It becomes very simple.

01:30:14.280 | - It becomes very simple.

01:30:15.240 | But you're picking up details probably along the way.

01:30:17.480 | There's wisdom along the way.

01:30:19.360 | What is that?

01:30:20.200 | - That there's like lessons

01:30:24.480 | that you just kind of accumulate over time.

01:30:27.120 | Like one training session, you'll see maybe

01:30:30.920 | like the positioning of the thumb,

01:30:36.280 | like this detailed positioning of the thumb

01:30:38.360 | or something like this.

01:30:39.480 | And then you like, okay, you like load that in.

01:30:42.320 | - That will be very basic

01:30:44.480 | because there is not that many different ways.

01:30:46.960 | Maybe one, two.

01:30:48.720 | I just do one.

01:30:50.080 | Any other is not as strong

01:30:51.520 | because it's about getting a strong grip on your collar.

01:30:55.840 | I mean, the thumb is, it's, the thumb goes inside,

01:30:59.040 | is it the thumb in or four fingers in,

01:31:01.800 | but it's getting a strong grip on the collar

01:31:04.640 | as long as this is just holding and feeling strong.

01:31:09.360 | - So that's just two options.

01:31:10.480 | So it's the dynamic stuff along the way.

01:31:13.200 | And then some of that is timing too.

01:31:16.000 | - It's timing.

01:31:17.000 | - Are you also like making people, like faking them out,

01:31:20.360 | making them think about something else?

01:31:21.720 | - No, not at that point.

01:31:22.920 | That's not, because I cannot fake anything else

01:31:26.760 | at that point.

01:31:28.280 | Because I will have to change my positioning to,

01:31:30.960 | maybe to fake an arm lock.

01:31:32.880 | Then I have to move out from that.

01:31:35.160 | So then I will lose the control I have.

01:31:37.560 | - So what's the process towards mastery?

01:31:39.600 | If you were to convert that to something

01:31:41.080 | that generalizes beyond jiu-jitsu,

01:31:43.560 | how can you get that good at a simple thing?

01:31:47.560 | - Practice.

01:31:48.400 | That simple.

01:31:50.680 | - The same exact thing over and over.

01:31:53.400 | - It's just a matter of how long it would take you.

01:31:56.720 | - So all, (laughs)

01:31:58.960 | that's true, that's true.

01:32:00.640 | - I mean, like I said, look how long it took me.

01:32:03.800 | People give up along the way.

01:32:05.240 | - There is intricacies to that journey towards perfection.

01:32:11.600 | There's a lot of people that do jiu-jitsu for decades

01:32:15.920 | and don't get better.

01:32:17.480 | - No, 'cause they don't train the way they should.

01:32:19.400 | They don't train to get better, they train to get tough.

01:32:22.160 | That's a big difference.

01:32:23.840 | Most people, they train to get tough, so they are tough.

01:32:26.960 | You know, like we were talking before,

01:32:28.840 | they don't practice their weakness.

01:32:30.480 | You wanna be good at, you wanna be really good at jiu-jitsu,

01:32:34.080 | you have to practice your weakness, not your strength.

01:32:38.960 | You have to practice everything,

01:32:40.080 | but you have to be equally strong in every position.

01:32:42.800 | They all act the same.

01:32:44.520 | You know, your guard, top, bottom,

01:32:46.520 | side control, top, bottom, turtle, half guard,

01:32:49.840 | mount, back, I mean, you pick, take down.

01:32:53.520 | And then you get into details of escaping triangle,

01:32:59.200 | applying the triangle, escaping arm lock,

01:33:03.320 | different scenarios of, you know,

01:33:07.040 | the one thing is defending the arm lock

01:33:08.480 | when you have your arms very close to your body.

01:33:11.600 | The other thing is to defend the arms

01:33:13.040 | when your arm is almost getting,

01:33:15.800 | and then when you got your arm.

01:33:17.600 | So there's so many things to practice

01:33:21.600 | that you need to repeat them over and over again

01:33:24.040 | until you're confident enough that when you get there,

01:33:26.280 | you have a chance.

01:33:27.440 | - And you can do the same kind of thing

01:33:28.680 | for even the final stages of a cross choke from mount.

01:33:32.080 | - Everything.

01:33:32.960 | I mean, of course, like you don't practice

01:33:36.840 | escaping the arm lock with a full arm straight

01:33:39.560 | because, you know, that's gone.

01:33:42.600 | I mean, you practice, you know,

01:33:45.040 | you practice escaping the arm lock

01:33:46.480 | when he takes your arm, you have, you know,

01:33:49.720 | you have a chance of trying to escape,

01:33:51.280 | but you don't practice.

01:33:52.600 | You know, okay, take my arm.

01:33:54.080 | When I say go, go, I mean, you got, you know,

01:33:56.120 | you pop the arm.

01:33:57.760 | That is like, you get injured doing that.

01:33:59.960 | Escaping the cross collar choke, it's,

01:34:03.920 | I mean, escape not letting the person get there.

01:34:06.720 | You can escape, you can practice escaping triangles

01:34:09.320 | because, you know, it's like,

01:34:10.960 | it's you have a way better chance of escaping triangle

01:34:14.360 | than, okay, mount on me, put both hands in my neck.

01:34:17.960 | I mean, it's over, you know, don't be there.

01:34:21.160 | - What's the best submission in Jiu Jitsu?

01:34:23.520 | - A choke, I would say.

01:34:25.200 | - From which position?

01:34:26.400 | If I gave you a billion dollars to start in a position

01:34:36.240 | like in a submission and you only get the billion,

01:34:39.520 | if you get the submission, which one would you start?

01:34:41.760 | - Cross collar choke on the mount.

01:34:43.080 | - Cross collar choke on the mount, not from the back.

01:34:46.600 | - No, you have a better chance escaping from the back.

01:34:49.360 | - Really? - Yeah.

01:34:51.760 | - Even with the hooks?

01:34:52.880 | - Even with everything.

01:34:53.720 | - Do you think some people will disagree with you?

01:34:56.000 | - I don't care.

01:34:56.840 | I have a better escape, I have a better chance

01:34:58.560 | escaping from the back than if you mount on me,

01:35:00.520 | put my hands on my neck.

01:35:02.040 | - So, if you were facing yourself,

01:35:04.880 | and I would give you a billion dollars to escape,

01:35:07.280 | you would pick?

01:35:10.280 | - From the back.

01:35:11.560 | Thousand times over.

01:35:13.080 | Like, no comparing.

01:35:14.560 | - You have like, with hooks, with like a triangle?

01:35:16.960 | - It doesn't matter, you can do whatever you want.

01:35:19.320 | - Like a body triangle?

01:35:20.280 | Okay, okay.

01:35:22.680 | - Like a thousand times over, like no questions.

01:35:24.880 | - So, to you, the mount is a super controlling position,

01:35:27.120 | it's not just...

01:35:28.200 | - Because cross collar choke in the mount,

01:35:31.800 | the moment that you put both hands on my neck,

01:35:34.560 | your arms need to be very close to your body to attack.

01:35:37.120 | So that means there's very little space between us.

01:35:41.320 | So that means there's very little space

01:35:45.040 | for you to work on your escape.

01:35:47.080 | And the moment that you cannot bridge,

01:35:49.360 | let's suppose I have, you know, the person has a good mount

01:35:51.760 | so you cannot bridge him off, what else?

01:35:53.880 | You don't have space to try to work on your defense.

01:35:57.960 | Being in the back, I have all the space around me

01:36:01.520 | to work on my defense, so my arms,

01:36:03.840 | I have the mobility to bring them anywhere.

01:36:06.280 | So I, because of that, it gives you and me

01:36:10.280 | a much better chance.

01:36:12.440 | And you cannot, I can move my body.

01:36:16.400 | If you're on my back, you cannot pin me.

01:36:20.800 | I cannot take you off my back,

01:36:22.680 | first I need to defend the choke,

01:36:25.400 | but you have no control over my body.

01:36:27.560 | So that means there's still a lot of movement

01:36:29.880 | that I can try to use to escape.

01:36:32.880 | In the mount, there's no movement.

01:36:34.600 | I'm pinned down, I cannot move,

01:36:36.800 | and I have no space between us to escape.

01:36:39.880 | - Well, the argument against that, this is great,

01:36:42.680 | is that on the bottom of mount, I do have my hands between,

01:36:47.680 | so you're saying they're pinned, there's nothing.

01:36:50.760 | - Between where?

01:36:51.600 | - I mean, you could get them in theory,

01:36:53.680 | you could somehow, you could--

01:36:56.120 | - But there's no, you can, but then there's no space.

01:36:58.640 | They will be squeezed between our bodies.

01:37:00.560 | - If it's an incredible mount.

01:37:03.120 | - No, it's not mount, like how, standing.

01:37:06.680 | If I put both hands on your neck,

01:37:08.320 | if I'm gonna go for the cross collar choke,

01:37:10.480 | after I get my hands in, the next step

01:37:12.640 | is to pull you close to me.

01:37:14.280 | So it's this, my arms needs to be close to me.

01:37:16.280 | - But I can put, there's the hands that could do something.

01:37:19.960 | - They can come in, but they are very limited space

01:37:23.680 | between us.

01:37:24.520 | - Yes, yes, no, I mean to push your body away,

01:37:26.160 | to decrease the power of the choke.

01:37:27.000 | - If we're standing, not if your back is against the floor.

01:37:29.800 | - Okay, the argument against the mount,

01:37:33.240 | or the argument for back controls

01:37:35.480 | being the most dominant position,

01:37:37.120 | is even though I have hands,

01:37:38.600 | I can't really use them effectively, as effective.

01:37:41.440 | - Not in the mount.

01:37:43.020 | There's no space.

01:37:43.860 | - In the mount, there's no space.

01:37:44.680 | - There's no space.

01:37:45.800 | You can try, I mean, you can squeeze your hand in.

01:37:48.680 | I mean, there's still things that you could do,

01:37:51.680 | but they're so limited.

01:37:53.160 | - So if you polled the 100 best competitors of all time,

01:37:58.160 | what do you think they would answer to that?

01:38:00.720 | Do you think most would agree with you?

01:38:02.680 | (laughing)

01:38:05.240 | - I don't care.

01:38:06.060 | It will show me their skills, their ability to see.

01:38:13.680 | - Okay, so the perfect mount

01:38:15.160 | versus the perfect back control.

01:38:16.840 | - There's no question.

01:38:17.680 | - Okay, there's no question.

01:38:18.960 | - For me, I mean, argue with me, like show me,

01:38:22.920 | 'cause I'm not being stubborn, because I'm being--

01:38:25.840 | - I'm scientific.

01:38:27.080 | - Exactly, so explain it to me why the back,

01:38:31.600 | it would be harder, it would be better to your position

01:38:34.900 | to finish than mount.

01:38:36.040 | If you can explain it to me why, I might change my mind.

01:38:41.040 | - I was trying to, but I don't have the cred.

01:38:45.920 | I'm like a middle school science student

01:38:51.680 | trying to talk to Einstein here.

01:38:53.320 | Okay, besides you, who do you think is the greatest

01:38:56.640 | jiu-jitsu competitor of all time?

01:38:58.520 | Can you make the case for some of them?

01:39:02.760 | Marcelo, Bucesha, Leandro Lowe?

01:39:06.880 | - I'll have to go with Bucesha,

01:39:08.640 | because look at how many titles he has.

01:39:11.240 | I mean, he has by far more than Marcelo.

01:39:15.120 | Marcelo stopped quite early.

01:39:16.480 | Leandro Lowe has eight, but Bucesha is better than him.

01:39:21.280 | - What do you think makes Bucesha so good?

01:39:23.880 | - He's a heavyweight that moves like a lightweight.

01:39:26.600 | He moves very fast, but he's very agile for his size.

01:39:30.200 | - So the agility combined with aggression.

01:39:35.400 | - Yeah, so it's very hard to control him,

01:39:37.800 | because he moves fast, and he's 112 kilos,

01:39:42.800 | 115 sometimes, or 110, I'm not sure,

01:39:46.440 | but he's about around that, so 240 in pounds.

01:39:50.640 | So when you're agile, 240 pounds,

01:39:55.240 | that makes it very hard to control you.

01:39:57.960 | - What about making the case for some others?

01:40:00.040 | What about the little guys?

01:40:00.960 | What about Marcelo, if you were to make the case

01:40:02.880 | for him being the strongest?

01:40:04.200 | What makes Marcelo good?

01:40:05.920 | - Marcelo Garcia is extremely technical.

01:40:08.080 | I mean, I think he's one of my favorite jiu-jitsu fighters,

01:40:12.440 | because in a technical way,

01:40:15.840 | I think he's probably one of the best.

01:40:18.360 | - 'Cause raw technique in a bunch of different positions,

01:40:21.040 | for submissions.

01:40:21.880 | - He's not very powerful.

01:40:25.600 | Physically, he's not very strong,

01:40:27.680 | but he can make himself very strong,

01:40:29.720 | and his technique is very, very high level.

01:40:32.080 | - Have you ever trained with him?

01:40:34.120 | - No, I fought him twice.

01:40:35.360 | - Yeah. (laughs)

01:40:37.640 | - But he's much smaller than me.

01:40:39.360 | - What happened in those matches?

01:40:40.800 | - The first fight, I tapped him, I think, five minutes.

01:40:44.200 | - In which submission?

01:40:45.320 | - Choke from the back.

01:40:47.000 | Collar choke from the back.

01:40:48.400 | And the second time, I beat him by points,

01:40:51.120 | but a very large, I think 12-2.

01:40:54.720 | - Actually, just to continue,

01:40:59.200 | I wonder if John Donahue would agree with you

01:41:03.640 | about mountain back.

01:41:05.120 | I can't wait to, this is a bear versus lion conversation.

01:41:08.240 | I'm looking, there's statistics about,

01:41:10.840 | I'm not letting this go.

01:41:13.720 | There's statistics about,

01:41:16.680 | oh, look at that, Hodger.

01:41:18.880 | What do you know, looking at Hodger Gracie's statistics

01:41:21.800 | for most successful submissions,

01:41:24.760 | choke from the back is the most.

01:41:27.720 | So how do you explain that, Mr. Scientist?

01:41:30.240 | - Because people panic when I'm out.

01:41:32.640 | They turn their back, I choked them out.

01:41:34.760 | - That's one explanation.

01:41:36.480 | But for people, it is interesting that,

01:41:38.600 | of course, this doesn't capture,

01:41:39.880 | but this captures a lot of your major matches,

01:41:42.520 | and we should say that you've submitted

01:41:44.640 | most of your opponents,

01:41:45.800 | so you rarely win on points.

01:41:47.360 | You usually win submissions.

01:41:49.520 | Choke from back is most of them,

01:41:52.400 | then cross choke from mount.

01:41:54.080 | Arm bar is a lot, too.

01:41:55.440 | So 18 from choke from back, 12 cross choke,

01:41:59.160 | 10 arm bar, five RNC rear naked is for no gi.

01:42:03.600 | - So in 2000, Ezekiel's very powerful.

01:42:07.600 | I choke, he's a strong weapon.

01:42:09.880 | - Yeah, also from mount.

01:42:11.320 | - Also from mount.

01:42:13.360 | - Oh, that's when you can't get the one hand in.

01:42:15.960 | - No, because the Ezekiel most times I use against people

01:42:20.160 | is the attack that as soon as I get to the mount,

01:42:25.160 | when they're trying to escape, they open up,

01:42:27.440 | and I get them.

01:42:28.480 | It has to be at that initial timing.

01:42:31.840 | - So it's not a thing you use to bother them

01:42:34.120 | in order to create--

01:42:34.960 | - Either I get it right away,

01:42:36.800 | or I don't bother trying much.

01:42:39.520 | Because you need to keep one hand behind the head,

01:42:42.680 | and you're naturally on that position

01:42:46.040 | as soon as you mount, most of the times.

01:42:48.240 | And the moment that you mount someone,

01:42:50.440 | no one accept that they go mount,

01:42:51.760 | and they're gonna explode to get out.

01:42:53.160 | So holding the head, it gives you a better way

01:42:57.480 | to dominate them initially, to deal with that explosiveness

01:43:01.840 | on the initial, on the beginning.

01:43:04.760 | And then, but then you have to let go to try it.

01:43:07.240 | You're very limited holding the head.

01:43:10.520 | - In terms of goats, Shonji,

01:43:13.480 | I feel like he doesn't get enough credit that he deserves.

01:43:17.640 | He had an extremely dominant performance in competition.

01:43:20.760 | What about Salo and Shonji Hibero?

01:43:23.080 | What are your thoughts about what makes them so good?

01:43:25.520 | He had a bunch of tough matches with Shonji and Salo.

01:43:29.080 | - Eight times.

01:43:29.920 | Yeah, I fought eight times, Shonda.

01:43:33.120 | I fought Salo once.

01:43:37.560 | (laughing)

01:43:39.600 | I think I'm bringing up a sore point.

01:43:41.480 | Oh, did Shonji tap when you, or did the time run out?

01:43:47.720 | And that was the last time you guys faced each other?

01:43:50.960 | - Yeah, 2008.

01:43:52.400 | - That was incredible to watch also.

01:43:55.440 | I think you pulled guard with one minute left,

01:43:59.720 | working towards attacking.

01:44:01.680 | I mean, it's probably very tough to get anything.

01:44:04.440 | And for people who don't know, time ran out,

01:44:08.000 | you had something that looked like an arm lock,

01:44:11.320 | and Shonji looked like he may be tapping,

01:44:15.680 | but it looked like he might be just celebrating,

01:44:18.120 | which is most likely.

01:44:18.960 | - I'm not sure.

01:44:19.800 | I'm not sure because I think his arm was just,

01:44:27.920 | just straight his arm, time finish.

01:44:30.360 | So I'm not sure if he was tapping to let go,

01:44:33.920 | time's up, or because of the outside,

01:44:38.240 | most likely the time was up.

01:44:40.640 | - Yeah, and also there's a thing where you start,

01:44:42.480 | you realize there's only three, two seconds left,

01:44:45.040 | so you just kind of start celebrating.

01:44:47.080 | You realize that Hadji's not gonna be able

01:44:49.800 | to finish this arm bar in the time left,

01:44:52.560 | so you start celebrating.

01:44:53.880 | - No, I think he tapped to say the time is up.

01:44:56.720 | - The time is up.

01:44:57.880 | Anyway, what do you think,

01:44:59.520 | the longevity especially is impressive with Shonji.

01:45:03.800 | - I think he doesn't get credit as much as he deserves

01:45:07.920 | because he pushed his career very far,

01:45:11.320 | and the last few years he was on his best.

01:45:14.880 | So he's, if he would have stopped before,

01:45:20.520 | people would remember him on his highest,

01:45:25.200 | but he kind of pushed more than his peak, let's say.

01:45:33.480 | - How hard is it for you to walk away?

01:45:35.880 | We'll talk about the journey into MMA as well,

01:45:38.560 | but you basically, especially with the second match

01:45:41.560 | against Boucher, she basically walked away on top,

01:45:45.120 | beating arguably the greatest competitor of all time,

01:45:50.040 | and just walking away.

01:45:53.240 | - It wasn't that hard to be honest

01:45:56.000 | because that was something that I was considering

01:45:58.960 | for a while because the last few years of my career,

01:46:03.280 | let's say, it was fighting MMA at the same time

01:46:07.440 | as fighting Jiu-Jitsu, and it's very challenging to do both.

01:46:11.280 | Like I don't, there's not another person who ever did that

01:46:15.280 | because the training is a confliction

01:46:18.120 | with the way you train.

01:46:19.840 | Everybody who start doing MMA, start focusing MMA,

01:46:23.720 | their Jiu-Jitsu gets worse

01:46:26.400 | because they stop training with the game.

01:46:28.720 | Everybody, no exception.

01:46:31.920 | - Was your Jiu-Jitsu also getting worse?

01:46:33.560 | - No, because I made sure I kept training with the gi,

01:46:37.240 | and I kept fighting at least the world championship

01:46:40.760 | once a year.

01:46:41.960 | That was my goal.

01:46:42.800 | I'm like, I'm gonna go for MMA, but I love Jiu-Jitsu

01:46:46.280 | and I still wanna fight the highest level.

01:46:49.560 | So I kept fighting once a year for a few years.

01:46:53.080 | It was a challenge, especially because the two

01:46:57.160 | or three times when I competed at the world's,

01:46:59.960 | it was right after a MMA fight I had.

01:47:03.480 | And no gi, you don't have the grips.

01:47:07.720 | So my grips, it made a big difference on my grips.

01:47:11.160 | So I was weaker grip-wise.

01:47:13.520 | So I felt that.

01:47:14.360 | So I knew it was like, it's unnecessary risk

01:47:18.400 | because I'm not, if I cannot be a hundred percent,

01:47:20.480 | so why am I doing this?

01:47:22.400 | But I'm stubborn, I love Jiu-Jitsu.

01:47:25.000 | That's like, I love fighting Jiu-Jitsu.

01:47:28.960 | I never loved MMA.

01:47:30.360 | I've liked it, but I think if all grace, I wouldn't done it.

01:47:33.520 | - So the thing you felt the most is the grips.

01:47:39.200 | - Yeah.

01:47:40.040 | - 'Cause you win a gi world championship without gripping.

01:47:46.360 | - No.

01:47:47.480 | - Like just pretending it's no gi match,

01:47:49.760 | they get to grip you, but you don't.

01:47:51.720 | - No.

01:47:52.560 | - So grips are essential.

01:47:53.400 | - Of course.

01:47:54.240 | I mean, how can you choke someone?

01:47:55.240 | Like it's, if your grips are weak,

01:47:57.440 | your forearms will fatigue and then you will have no power

01:48:02.440 | and then you cannot do anything.

01:48:04.400 | - Yeah.

01:48:05.520 | You could still arm lock and you could.

01:48:07.840 | So I meant more not for the submission,

01:48:10.920 | but for the control of the game of it, the dance.

01:48:13.000 | - But you need to grip to get there.

01:48:15.320 | - To get there.

01:48:16.800 | - And if your grips are weak.

01:48:18.680 | - But you also have grips in no gi.

01:48:20.640 | Can't you use those grips?

01:48:22.040 | - No.

01:48:22.880 | - It's a thought experiment.

01:48:23.960 | So like I'm trying to understand how essential.

01:48:26.080 | - When I get a no gi guy go far with the gi, they panic.

01:48:30.000 | - They panic?

01:48:30.840 | - Of course.

01:48:31.680 | - Everyone panics.

01:48:32.520 | A bear panics when they're in the water with a shark,

01:48:34.600 | but that doesn't mean the bear can still win

01:48:36.840 | when it stops panicking and relaxes.

01:48:39.360 | - It's not possible.

01:48:40.520 | - That's another discussion.

01:48:41.840 | - Can a bear beat a shark in the water?

01:48:44.760 | - Actually, I need to, maybe a polar bear,

01:48:48.560 | 'cause they're pretty good at swimming.

01:48:49.800 | Okay.

01:48:50.640 | - I say not possible for the no gi guy to win.

01:48:53.400 | But the bears is a further discussion.

01:48:55.360 | What was to you the biggest difference

01:48:58.160 | between mixed martial arts and jiu-jitsu?

01:49:02.200 | What are some interesting differences,

01:49:03.600 | some interesting insights,

01:49:04.880 | even just about the grappling within both sports?

01:49:07.320 | - So the biggest difference for me between MMA and jiu-jitsu

01:49:13.080 | is first is the speed.

01:49:14.960 | Like jiu-jitsu, you know, like a 10-minute match,

01:49:18.400 | I can take my time.

01:49:19.920 | There's no dangers that forces me to move fast.

01:49:24.000 | MMA, you have to be 100% sharp and fast

01:49:29.240 | from first, second of the fight,

01:49:32.440 | because punches are coming,

01:49:33.280 | you can get knocked out any time.

01:49:35.080 | One mistake, you're out.

01:49:37.560 | Jiu-jitsu, you don't have that.

01:49:39.240 | Like it's, I don't have to worry about quick submission,

01:49:42.320 | because it's all about the way my body's positioned,

01:49:45.720 | you know, my grips.

01:49:46.560 | It's easy to avoid, it's easier to see it coming.

01:49:50.000 | Like it's like a quick submission, a surprise,

01:49:53.320 | it only works if you make a mistake,

01:49:55.760 | if you're not correct position.

01:49:59.000 | Otherwise, it's impossible.

01:50:00.480 | It's extremely difficult.

01:50:02.280 | MMA is not.

01:50:04.040 | I mean, one split-second mistake,

01:50:07.800 | and when the person comes, you have to respond.

01:50:12.240 | You have to match his pace.

01:50:14.280 | I mean, you can slow down,

01:50:15.600 | but it's like you're forced to respond.

01:50:17.880 | So it's a much faster, it's a lot more physical, a lot more.

01:50:22.880 | And you need to be physical, much better conditioning,

01:50:28.000 | faster, it's explosiveness, it's much harder.

01:50:31.640 | - Is it possible in MMA to calm things down?

01:50:35.520 | - If they change the rules, yeah.

01:50:37.840 | Five minute rules, no.

01:50:38.960 | - Ah, I see.

01:50:41.800 | So like, I just meant actually technically speaking,

01:50:45.440 | is there ways to take an opponent

01:50:48.600 | that's being exceptionally aggressive?

01:50:50.120 | - You can, clinch.

01:50:51.960 | But then he takes you down, he keeps moving.

01:50:54.520 | Something is hard to control that pace.

01:50:57.680 | You can, if you play defense, you save more energy

01:51:03.360 | than if you try to be the aggressor and respond.

01:51:06.280 | - And even getting to the clinch is very difficult.

01:51:08.040 | - Yeah, you have no way to hold yourself there.

01:51:11.520 | So that was the biggest challenge for me in MMA,

01:51:13.520 | is the speed, 'cause I'm a very slow start fighter.

01:51:17.720 | If you look at my matches, I start very slow.

01:51:20.200 | Because if I go hard, I fatigue faster.

01:51:24.200 | So for me, that was the hardest part, is to start fast.

01:51:29.200 | - What about on the ground?

01:51:31.120 | Is there something different, more challenging

01:51:34.200 | on the ground?

01:51:35.280 | - Being in the bottom, yes.

01:51:36.640 | There's punches, punch coming.

01:51:38.640 | - How fundamentally different is Jiu-Jitsu

01:51:40.320 | with punches on the ground?

01:51:41.400 | - It changes everything, everything.

01:51:44.080 | - Which parts?

01:51:45.320 | - The distance that you allow your opponent to be on you,

01:51:48.640 | the techniques that you choose to apply.

01:51:50.880 | You have to, your body has to be aware of the punches,

01:51:57.520 | and you are a lot more limited on your attacks.

01:52:01.440 | - So you're known for your closed guards.

01:52:03.280 | How does your closed guard have to adjust?

01:52:05.320 | How does the positioning of your hands have to adjust

01:52:07.920 | when you're on the bottom of closed guard?

01:52:09.400 | - So in the guard, especially in the closed guard,

01:52:12.360 | you have to either keep the person very close to you,

01:52:15.760 | or you have to kick him away.

01:52:18.000 | In the guard, it's either I'm hugging you,

01:52:20.640 | or get away from me.

01:52:22.120 | - And in Jiu-Jitsu, you're allowed to have a middle?

01:52:24.160 | - Yeah, in Jiu-Jitsu, there's a lot,

01:52:25.800 | you can allow the person to be.

01:52:27.560 | - What about getting arm lock or triangle submissions

01:52:33.480 | from the guard?

01:52:35.040 | Is that fundamentally different?

01:52:38.400 | Because you don't have the middle game?

01:52:40.880 | - It's much harder.

01:52:41.920 | There's barely no open guard in MMA, very little.

01:52:47.200 | Because open guard, there's a distance between you and him.

01:52:52.200 | There's a distance you cannot control.

01:52:55.080 | It's much harder to control that punch coming.

01:52:57.080 | And I have to position myself a way to block that,

01:53:01.720 | and it limited my attacks, my options of attacks.

01:53:04.400 | - Is there a reason, correct me if I'm wrong,

01:53:07.440 | but I don't think you do open guard much

01:53:09.920 | in Jiu-Jitsu and No Gi.

01:53:12.360 | Is there a reason for that?

01:53:14.320 | - It's harder with explosive person,

01:53:19.320 | because when they're moving fast,

01:53:22.400 | then you have to try to slow them down.

01:53:24.120 | - So you like guards that allow you to control the person?

01:53:26.240 | - Yeah.

01:53:27.080 | - And closed guard is the ultimate control?

01:53:29.920 | - Yeah.

01:53:30.760 | It's not ultimate control,

01:53:32.680 | but closed guard puts you in a position

01:53:34.280 | that I'm attacking and you're defending.

01:53:36.840 | You cannot attack me from my closed guard.

01:53:38.960 | We can argue that there might be one or two attacks,

01:53:43.160 | but it's like very, very, very limited,

01:53:46.440 | and depends who you're fighting against.

01:53:49.400 | - I hate the closed guard.

01:53:52.200 | Being on top against a good closed guard is very--

01:53:55.200 | - No one likes, it's terrible.

01:53:56.760 | - It's horrible.

01:53:57.600 | - It's one-sided.

01:53:59.000 | So you're in the guard and it's one-sided.

01:54:01.040 | The person in the bottom has the advantage.

01:54:02.880 | I can be completely relaxed in my closed guard,

01:54:05.880 | and I cannot be completely relaxed.

01:54:07.480 | - You know what the most annoying thing is?

01:54:09.200 | Is somebody who is both good

01:54:10.760 | and extremely confident with a closed guard,

01:54:13.080 | 'cause they have that smug energy about them.

01:54:16.080 | They know how much unpleasant,

01:54:17.800 | how much work it takes to pass this.

01:54:20.240 | Anyway, especially people with longer legs.

01:54:24.200 | Is there something you wish you did differently

01:54:28.720 | in how you started training in MMA,

01:54:31.040 | in that trajectory, in figuring out how to train,

01:54:34.520 | how to get good?

01:54:35.960 | Like what have you learned about getting good at MMA

01:54:39.320 | from having done it, if you were to start now, for example?

01:54:42.720 | - I think I would have to dedicate it more.

01:54:46.320 | I didn't dedicate enough.

01:54:48.360 | - Both like literally time, number of training sessions--

01:54:51.160 | - Training, yeah. - But also mental--

01:54:52.520 | - Training-wise, physical.

01:54:53.920 | I think a lot more the physical part of it.

01:54:56.360 | - The strikes, everything?

01:54:57.200 | - The strike from the beginning.

01:54:58.840 | It's because, I mean, I love jujitsu.

01:55:03.720 | Like I truly love all the aspects of it,

01:55:07.480 | fighting, training, the practice, the competition.

01:55:11.960 | I don't have that for MMA.

01:55:13.760 | So it's hard to give your heart to it,

01:55:16.080 | something that you don't have the passion to it.

01:55:18.320 | Like jujitsu, I gave my heart to it.

01:55:21.920 | Like I did everything that I had to.

01:55:24.360 | MMA, I didn't do that.

01:55:27.040 | So that's why it was,

01:55:31.520 | I won't say it was wrong for me to do it

01:55:34.600 | because I don't regret doing it.

01:55:36.680 | I always, looking back as a kid,

01:55:40.120 | when I decided to take jujitsu for life,

01:55:44.760 | I already knew that some point I would have to do MMA.

01:55:49.200 | There's almost like that's the path of a Gracie.

01:55:51.960 | When you're ready, you go do MMA.

01:55:55.360 | So-- - So there was like

01:55:57.800 | a duty versus a love. - There was no choice.

01:55:59.320 | Yeah, there was not a choice.

01:56:01.120 | There was like I have to.

01:56:03.040 | It's just the life I took, it will lead that way.

01:56:06.200 | - Are you proud of that step?

01:56:09.920 | You know, go against the natural love and towards more duty?

01:56:13.440 | - I think I don't regret it because if I hadn't done it,

01:56:20.160 | I would feel there was something missing.

01:56:23.880 | So I don't regret doing, I would regret not doing.

01:56:29.120 | (chuckles)

01:56:30.160 | - The tricky thing is the choice to go to MMA

01:56:33.560 | could have compromised your ability

01:56:36.040 | to win against Bouchescu and it didn't.

01:56:39.560 | And it's a fascinating case study.

01:56:44.000 | It still doesn't make sense to me

01:56:45.760 | that after all those years, you're able to come back

01:56:48.320 | and go against the best person in the world and beat him.

01:56:51.640 | - Yeah, and I had to because the first fight we had,

01:56:56.960 | I had something stuck in my throat for a long time.

01:56:59.760 | - So you think about that.

01:57:03.400 | - Oh yeah, I'm like as soon as that first fight finished,

01:57:08.400 | I had said that got stuck in my throat

01:57:11.400 | that I already at that point I knew

01:57:13.640 | I'm gonna have to fight him again.

01:57:15.480 | I knew, I always knew.

01:57:17.760 | 'Cause there's no choice, I have to.

01:57:20.760 | - Oh man, all right, well, in terms of Nogi,

01:57:26.080 | who do you think is the best Nogi competitor of all time?

01:57:29.400 | - There's no question, it's Gordon.

01:57:31.400 | I don't think it's right to say the best competitor

01:57:37.320 | of all time 'cause he's still very young.

01:57:39.400 | I think that's something that he can be angry

01:57:41.160 | in the end of when the person--

01:57:43.360 | - You don't want him to get lazy.

01:57:44.760 | You know what I'm saying?

01:57:45.600 | - No, no, I mean, but you cannot praise someone

01:57:47.440 | in the middle of his career.

01:57:49.240 | So you cannot call him the best ever, he's 26 or 27.

01:57:54.520 | So it's, I mean, he's great, he's very good.

01:57:58.000 | He's ahead of all of other competitors, I think.

01:58:02.960 | And I mean, he's having an amazing career,

01:58:06.680 | he's doing amazingly well.

01:58:08.720 | So I mean, when he's, when he finished,

01:58:10.960 | when he finally retired, then you can argue like--

01:58:15.080 | - You know what, there's wisdom in that.

01:58:17.160 | It matters how you finish, right?

01:58:19.840 | - Of course.

01:58:20.680 | - It's very interesting.

01:58:23.560 | - I think that Nogi is relative new, that Nogi scene.

01:58:28.560 | There was not, there wasn't a scene before.

01:58:31.400 | I think he started now on his generation, you know,

01:58:35.240 | his time 'cause before, like when I was competing,

01:58:39.080 | Nogi was just ADCC, there's nothing else.

01:58:41.680 | Every two years, first was only in the Emirates.

01:58:45.640 | You know, you had to go there to compete.

01:58:48.600 | So there was not even a scene.

01:58:49.960 | There was like this one tournament

01:58:52.000 | that gives a lot of money to, you know,

01:58:55.640 | to competitors, to fighters,

01:58:58.200 | and brings fighters from other modalities, you know,

01:59:01.200 | to Marker, Van Narsdale, you know, some wrestlers,

01:59:06.200 | Greg Coroman, you know, that can compete against each other.

01:59:10.760 | And they, you know, they create that set of rules,

01:59:14.360 | try not to favor anyone.

01:59:16.440 | So that was it.

01:59:17.880 | So you cannot be called the greatest Nogi of all time

01:59:21.560 | if you only have one tournament every two years.

01:59:25.480 | Only in Emirates, they have to be invited to.

01:59:28.040 | But I think now, you know, it grew a lot.

01:59:32.440 | Now we have so many different tournaments.

01:59:34.160 | Now we have a scene.

01:59:35.000 | You have people that only train Nogi,

01:59:36.880 | they're fully dedicated to Nogi.

01:59:39.280 | And you have super fights, different tournaments.

01:59:42.640 | So now it's, you know, now it's professionally,

01:59:46.280 | you can do just Nogi now,

01:59:47.560 | which before was unheard of it

01:59:49.080 | because you have one or two tournaments.

01:59:51.320 | If you cannot be called a Nogi fighter,

01:59:54.360 | fighting once every two years, twice every two years.

01:59:58.480 | - Yeah, now there's entire systems

02:00:01.320 | that are optimized for Nogi

02:00:03.040 | that could be fundamentally different.

02:00:04.440 | Like, what do you think about the body lock?

02:00:06.880 | Like, this passing with the body lock,

02:00:09.240 | I don't know if you get an understanding of it.

02:00:11.840 | - Yeah, I think it's okay.

02:00:17.360 | It's a popular way to, what is it?

02:00:21.400 | Maybe to apply--

02:00:24.720 | - To stay tight.

02:00:25.760 | - To stay tight.

02:00:26.600 | - Very close to your opponent

02:00:28.480 | so he can't push great distance, he can push away.

02:00:31.520 | - But somehow it shuts down the hips as well.

02:00:35.920 | - Yeah.

02:00:36.880 | - Makes it more difficult to defend.

02:00:38.240 | - Yeah, kind of trap your legs.

02:00:40.160 | Your back is stuck on against the floor.

02:00:44.040 | Are you scientifically curious about these new developments?

02:00:49.040 | Do you have answers in your head to them?

02:00:52.480 | - Most.

02:00:54.680 | - So body lock is one interesting one.

02:00:57.720 | Obviously foot locks is another.

02:00:59.320 | And that'll mean just the foot locks,

02:01:00.720 | but the whole control aspect of foot locks.

02:01:03.960 | That's interesting.

02:01:06.560 | And there's other interesting stuff.

02:01:08.040 | John is really into the wrestling.

02:01:13.800 | Aspect, but not wrestling, wrestling,

02:01:16.280 | but wrestling everywhere.

02:01:17.840 | Jiu-Jitsu at all levels of the plane.

02:01:19.940 | That's very interesting 'cause obviously

02:01:23.480 | Jiu-Jitsu has not really been,

02:01:26.000 | unlike freestyle wrestling and so on,

02:01:29.080 | has not been a systematic, scientific,

02:01:32.160 | rigorous exploration of wrestling.

02:01:34.000 | It's like you're on your feet and you're on the ground.

02:01:36.400 | Not in jiu-jitsu.

02:01:38.440 | There's a lot of interest.

02:01:39.280 | - John is academic.

02:01:40.160 | He tried to, he knows numbers, mathematic, everything.

02:01:45.040 | - You kinda are too.

02:01:46.280 | - Yeah.

02:01:47.680 | No, I mean, I am.

02:01:52.200 | Because you have to understand what you're doing.

02:01:54.600 | There's a, everything, there's a step-by-step,

02:01:57.600 | like logistic, like details.

02:02:00.940 | Every single move, there's a reason for it.

02:02:03.840 | There's things around that happens.

02:02:05.600 | The more you know, the better you are.

02:02:08.800 | The more knowledgeable, the competitor, whatever.

02:02:11.680 | So I think with the foot locks, with the nogi,

02:02:17.160 | like if you look back,

02:02:18.440 | if you think of, it used to be seen as a really bad thing

02:02:23.900 | to attack the foot.

02:02:25.360 | It wasn't seen as a good option of attack.

02:02:29.200 | Mainly--

02:02:30.480 | - What is that, like,

02:02:31.320 | respectable gentlemen don't attack the leg or what?

02:02:33.680 | - No, because if you look back,

02:02:36.040 | the tournaments, when they were created,

02:02:38.160 | all the rules and everything else was to simulate

02:02:41.360 | a real fight with no punches, when I was having nogi.

02:02:44.600 | I mean, if you ask, what is jiu-jitsu?

02:02:47.240 | Like, what are you trying,

02:02:48.080 | what's the main goal of jiu-jitsu?

02:02:50.000 | To dominate your opponent.

02:02:51.160 | What's the main goal of fighting?

02:02:53.120 | It's, we're fighting, it's, of course,

02:02:55.440 | submission is the ultimate goal.

02:02:57.360 | But before that, the main goal is to dominate you.

02:03:02.840 | Like, we're fighting, I have to dominate you.

02:03:05.160 | And then the submission comes.

02:03:07.600 | And foot locks, it's, I don't require any domination on you.

02:03:12.400 | I don't need to be in a dominant position

02:03:16.440 | to attack your foot.

02:03:17.760 | And if I attack your foot,

02:03:20.120 | you're still free to knock me out.

02:03:22.560 | If your body goes down to my foot,

02:03:24.080 | I can still come close to you,

02:03:25.400 | I'll stand up and I'll punch you.

02:03:27.520 | So it's not a good position to be in a real fight.

02:03:30.000 | Yeah, to attack in the foot.

02:03:32.760 | I mean, how many times you've seen that going bad?

02:03:35.960 | That going bad in an MMA fight?

02:03:38.360 | I mean, of course you had some sort of success

02:03:42.000 | with the hukou.

02:03:42.880 | It's no questions, but how many times went wrong?

02:03:45.960 | People were knocked out attacking the foot.

02:03:48.000 | So you can't say it's the best position to be.

02:03:50.720 | It's okay to go, but it's a very high risky position to go.

02:03:55.120 | So that's why it's not in a real situation,

02:03:57.080 | it's not seen as a good thing.

02:03:59.080 | So when you translate that to jiu-jitsu,

02:04:00.680 | when attacking the foot, it's not seen as a good thing

02:04:03.200 | because when you reflect that to a real situation,

02:04:07.040 | it's not gonna go down well.

02:04:08.880 | So it was always seen as a easy way out, easy cut.

02:04:13.520 | You're trying to do the easy path.

02:04:15.200 | You can't pass my guard, you can't dominate me,

02:04:17.880 | and then you're trying to attack my foot.

02:04:20.120 | That's why it was always seen as not as the best,

02:04:23.840 | a great submission, a way to win.

02:04:25.800 | - But the sad side effect of that

02:04:27.440 | is it was completely underdeveloped because of that.

02:04:30.600 | - Exactly, of course.

02:04:33.280 | So people never really developed that.

02:04:35.640 | But now, the tournaments, the fighting,

02:04:38.640 | it got completely, not completely,

02:04:41.400 | but it's no longer seen as a simulation of the real thing.

02:04:46.400 | Now it's a sport.

02:04:49.200 | It's only seen as a sport.

02:04:50.880 | So now it doesn't matter.

02:04:52.400 | If you attack my foot, you cannot punch me.

02:04:54.640 | So why is it bad now to attack the foot?

02:04:57.680 | So it's not seen as a bad thing anymore.

02:04:59.480 | And now it got really developed.

02:05:03.800 | - I don't know, that's another bear versus shark question.

02:05:07.400 | But there is, in a street self-defense situation,

02:05:12.400 | it's possible to imagine where foot locks

02:05:15.680 | would be effective for Haile.

02:05:17.480 | But I guess if you invest 10,000 hours,

02:05:20.360 | it's better to invest it in chokes.

02:05:24.280 | - Yeah, to dominate.

02:05:25.120 | If I were fighting, it's way better for me

02:05:28.720 | to be on your side control, on the mount,

02:05:31.000 | where I can pin you, be completely safe,

02:05:33.520 | than to stay inside your legs, trying to attack your foot.

02:05:36.440 | - People would argue that there's a lot

02:05:39.040 | of very dominant controlling positions

02:05:41.440 | in the whole foot lock game, right?

02:05:43.080 | - It is, but it can go bad very quickly.

02:05:45.240 | - Yeah.

02:05:46.080 | - No, I mean, there's some great ways

02:05:49.320 | to control someone that he cannot escape,

02:05:51.840 | but it can go bad very quickly.

02:05:54.240 | That's the thing.

02:05:57.160 | - Well, even back control can go bad

02:05:58.840 | very quickly on the street.

02:06:01.000 | So mount, I don't know.

02:06:02.560 | Is mount a really good position?

02:06:04.280 | - But then there's no good position then.

02:06:06.080 | - There's no good position.

02:06:08.000 | There's no--

02:06:09.360 | - Every position, there's a risk, okay?

02:06:12.560 | Attacking the foot is a way higher risk

02:06:14.320 | than side control, mount, back.

02:06:17.200 | That's what I'm saying, the back is not the best way

02:06:20.560 | to pin someone, unless you're underneath me.

02:06:25.560 | Because if you try to rotate, I can sacrifice the back

02:06:29.880 | and just allow you to pin the mount.

02:06:32.800 | - Okay, there you go.

02:06:34.400 | Would you prefer mount or back mount

02:06:37.120 | where they're flattened?

02:06:38.760 | Like a--

02:06:39.600 | - Still mount.

02:06:41.480 | - Thought I'd get you.

02:06:44.520 | So yeah, going back to Gordon,

02:06:49.680 | what do you think makes that guy so good?

02:06:51.040 | We were just at ADCC, you get to see him

02:06:54.040 | historically dominate performance.

02:06:56.560 | - His dedication, the way he trains,

02:06:59.640 | and how much he trains.

02:07:01.440 | And of course, you have to add his mind,

02:07:04.240 | his belief to really try to be good, the best.

02:07:08.880 | So I don't know what his goals are,

02:07:11.360 | but I know he tries to be better than his opponents.

02:07:13.880 | So his beliefs are very strong.

02:07:15.900 | His dedication, he probably trains more than everybody else.

02:07:22.400 | I haven't seen firsthand it, but from what I hear

02:07:25.440 | interviews with him and everybody else training,

02:07:28.480 | the way everybody trains, trying to,

02:07:31.760 | from my little knowledge I have,

02:07:35.800 | I'll bet he trains more than everybody else.

02:07:38.120 | And most important, how he trains.

02:07:41.240 | I kind of already knew, but when I heard John podcast

02:07:46.840 | with you the other day, John was explaining

02:07:49.840 | the preparation, the training for the ADCC,

02:07:52.240 | and that kind of gave me a very strong idea

02:07:56.320 | how they've been training all these years.

02:07:58.800 | So when we said, you have to work on your weakness,

02:08:02.520 | so you have no weakness, he trains a lot on his weakness,

02:08:07.440 | which not everyone does that.

02:08:10.560 | If you look, I'm not gonna name, but all the main schools,

02:08:15.560 | like very strong competitors, great competitors,

02:08:19.120 | super tough people, but super tough, not great.

02:08:24.120 | Because they train, they spar very hard,

02:08:27.200 | that makes them tough.

02:08:29.080 | If you wanna be good, you have to work on your weakness.

02:08:32.160 | Because when you spar, like we're saying,

02:08:35.360 | how many times you're gonna practice

02:08:38.200 | escaping a bad position, like a submission hold

02:08:41.680 | or a pinning position, side control, mount,

02:08:45.160 | it's very little the amount of time you get

02:08:47.760 | to spend on those positions if you don't start there.

02:08:50.920 | So that, he's very smart the way he trains.

02:08:55.560 | - And part of that is also cerebral,

02:08:57.280 | it's not just putting yourself in those positions,

02:08:59.240 | but talking through different ideas.

02:09:02.360 | Like they talk, they like experiment,

02:09:06.280 | it's very like, at first glance,

02:09:10.240 | it's like philosophical almost.

02:09:12.400 | 'Cause you're trying to create systems constantly,

02:09:14.520 | you're trying to understand how this fits

02:09:15.920 | into this big picture.

02:09:17.440 | And then it goes back to what is fighting.

02:09:22.440 | He's fighting for dominance,

02:09:24.920 | he's fighting for the ultimate dominance positions,

02:09:27.760 | which is back and mount, there's no others.

02:09:30.080 | And from that you finish.

02:09:31.760 | So if you look back at his, over the years,

02:09:35.200 | of his past fights, before he used to mainly focus in legs,

02:09:40.200 | and over the past few years, now he's mainly focusing

02:09:44.200 | in finishing from the mountain back.

02:09:47.360 | That's when he became really good.

02:09:49.080 | - So part of that is Mr. John Donaher.

02:09:54.080 | What do you think, you've known John for a long time,

02:09:57.520 | what makes that guy interesting, special, and good?

02:10:02.520 | What have you learned about jiu-jitsu

02:10:04.240 | and life from John Donaher?

02:10:06.120 | - He's super smart, I mean eccentric,

02:10:09.800 | and he lives through jiu-jitsu.

02:10:12.480 | He's 24/7 thinking better ways to teach,

02:10:16.920 | how to make his competitors better.

02:10:19.880 | And that as a coach, when you have that dedication

02:10:22.640 | as a coach, that it makes the most difference

02:10:25.240 | of your athletes.

02:10:26.760 | Which other big team you have that coach

02:10:28.920 | with that motivation?

02:10:30.880 | All the other schools, it's either someone that competes,

02:10:34.720 | that push the training, like Andre Galvao.

02:10:37.560 | He's one of the competitors,

02:10:39.200 | so he brings the hype in everyone else.

02:10:41.560 | But he doesn't have the time,

02:10:44.080 | he doesn't spend the time working individually.

02:10:46.400 | I mean, I'm sure he does, but it's limited

02:10:48.120 | because he's also a competitor.

02:10:49.680 | And looking most of the other big schools,

02:10:54.520 | you don't have that.

02:10:57.320 | Now all the leaders, the main coaches

02:11:00.240 | for the other big schools, they have other things

02:11:03.520 | in their lives, they don't fully dedicate it

02:11:05.800 | to the athletes.

02:11:06.880 | John does.

02:11:07.720 | Look at the interview, he spends hours and hours a day

02:11:12.920 | studying how can a way, the system,

02:11:17.120 | to make his athletes better.

02:11:18.720 | Look at the results.

02:11:21.320 | - I enjoy, I was just sending back and forth,

02:11:23.760 | you can actually just get him, you control him essentially

02:11:27.000 | by sending interesting videos and you could just

02:11:28.920 | see his mind.

02:11:29.960 | He's gonna do research on that.

02:11:33.040 | 'Cause I kept sending him videos of bears

02:11:34.840 | 'cause he claimed that a lion would beat a bear

02:11:40.200 | because, I'd love to get your take on this, okay.

02:11:43.840 | So the bear is much bigger, much stronger.

02:11:47.400 | But his take is that the bears don't have experience

02:11:52.520 | of fighting to the death, that's not part of the culture,

02:11:54.600 | they're more scared.

02:11:55.920 | In fact, he keeps sending me footage of even

02:11:59.320 | a small mountain lion scaring a bear away

02:12:02.040 | because they don't want to fight.

02:12:06.300 | So his idea is that it really matters your life experience,

02:12:10.260 | how much you fight, it's not necessarily the skill,

02:12:13.660 | like the dimensions, the characteristics you have.

02:12:16.380 | But then I send him, here I'll show you.

02:12:19.620 | People should Google this, it's bears fighting of any kind.

02:12:27.940 | It's pretty much the most epic thing ever.

02:12:31.700 | Here, I'll show you.

02:12:34.700 | Look at these guys.

02:12:35.540 | The cardio, though, is interesting.

02:12:37.060 | - You know, it's funny, I was gonna mention that

02:12:39.060 | 'cause I was flipping through internet.

02:12:41.580 | I came around that video.

02:12:45.900 | - Look how big these guys are.

02:12:47.380 | - No, they're huge, but see, they don't bite each other.

02:12:50.540 | - You think it's just play?

02:12:51.380 | - They try to, no, intimidating,

02:12:52.900 | 'cause they don't wanna get hurt.

02:12:54.620 | So they try to size each other up.

02:12:56.580 | You know, they'll see the whole fighting

02:12:59.780 | is sizing each other up.

02:13:01.540 | There's a lot of pushing, and the fur is so thick,

02:13:05.140 | so the claw doesn't really damage much.

02:13:07.420 | - They're using the tree, so maybe they, yeah.

02:13:11.620 | - I mean, there is bites, but see, there's very little.

02:13:15.180 | So the whole time, they're trying to intimidate the other one

02:13:20.980 | like winning the fight by their size.

02:13:26.940 | - And mostly about the way drunk college kids fight,

02:13:31.780 | which is like some kind of display of dominance

02:13:34.220 | versus actual--

02:13:35.260 | - Yeah, they're not fighting to kill.

02:13:37.580 | And bear or tiger, they fight to finish,

02:13:42.900 | unless the other one runs away, one will die.

02:13:45.580 | - Yeah, lions and tigers.

02:13:48.020 | Yeah, but look at the cardio.

02:13:50.580 | Look how bad their cardio is.

02:13:52.300 | I wonder how, my favorite part is when one of them

02:13:56.540 | just stands behind a tree and says, "All right."

02:13:59.820 | - He's holding.

02:14:00.660 | (laughing)

02:14:02.900 | - He's getting the breath.

02:14:05.020 | - Let me catch my breath.

02:14:05.860 | (laughing)

02:14:06.820 | - He sits down.

02:14:08.340 | He's like, "All right, you can't, it's over."

02:14:10.540 | It's like it's the equivalent in the forest,

02:14:15.260 | like tapping out, "All right, all right, you got me.

02:14:17.700 | Let me just catch my breath."

02:14:19.900 | Look, they're both just shot.

02:14:25.460 | (laughing)

02:14:27.100 | But see, the thing is that I was trying

02:14:28.500 | to make an argument for is that we get this rare footage.

02:14:32.060 | It's not rare, I mean, it was like hundreds of videos,

02:14:33.960 | but it's not millions of videos

02:14:35.420 | 'cause there's a huge number of bears.

02:14:37.300 | And I was trying to say that there's some badass bear

02:14:39.300 | we don't know about 'cause he just goes in there

02:14:43.420 | and just does work.

02:14:44.940 | And we just don't know about it 'cause he's like everyone.

02:14:49.700 | See, the thing is, if you kill a lot of other animals,

02:14:52.380 | you probably have a territory

02:14:53.980 | that nobody's gonna mess with you.

02:14:55.080 | So it's very hard to catch the,

02:14:56.760 | like the Haja Gracie of bears.

02:15:02.020 | He's just gonna be sitting there doing nothing.

02:15:05.980 | So I don't know.

02:15:07.620 | I don't know, I feel like, of course,

02:15:10.340 | when you corner him, John will say that if you put a bear

02:15:13.540 | in a line in a cage, the bear will win

02:15:15.580 | if they're forced to be to the death, but I don't know.

02:15:20.580 | Oh, let me ask you another ridiculous thing

02:15:22.180 | before I ask you serious questions.

02:15:24.820 | So Joe Rogan thinks that a tie

02:15:28.300 | is an effective way to attack somebody.

02:15:33.060 | I don't know if, I can't believe I haven't,

02:15:35.700 | in the time in Vegas, I didn't talk to you about this.

02:15:38.140 | I think it's not.

02:15:39.260 | Have you ever explored this?

02:15:40.580 | It's the best choker in the world.

02:15:43.420 | Have you ever explored the use,

02:15:45.340 | 'cause like Jiu-Jitsu has the jacket,

02:15:48.380 | but the tie, to me, is a pretty shitty way

02:15:53.380 | to choke somebody.

02:15:54.520 | Like intuitively, he thinks like it's a good way,

02:15:56.620 | but it can slide around.

02:15:58.340 | It feels like there's no way to really pin.

02:16:03.340 | - You would need to.

02:16:05.300 | - Right, so you use it the way you use a belt, essentially.

02:16:08.780 | Yeah, but then--

02:16:09.620 | - I would guess so.

02:16:10.940 | - Yeah.

02:16:11.780 | And I think if it gives you,

02:16:16.340 | it actually has the reverse effect,

02:16:17.720 | which it gives you the false sense of confidence

02:16:20.940 | that you can use it, and instead it'll just distract you.

02:16:24.500 | - So he think it's a stronger way than the collar?

02:16:27.540 | Or just a stronger--

02:16:28.380 | - Yeah, yeah.

02:16:29.200 | - Stronger than the collar? - Stronger than the collar,

02:16:30.040 | yeah, yeah.

02:16:30.860 | - I don't see how.

02:16:32.300 | Maybe, just I can say.

02:16:33.140 | - Well, in a street fight scenario, right?

02:16:35.300 | - But by the time you grab the tie,

02:16:37.620 | the guy goes punch your nose.

02:16:39.020 | - Yeah.

02:16:39.860 | What George St. Pierre thinks is the best use of the tie

02:16:44.380 | is to actually, what do you call that?

02:16:48.220 | So basically to off-balance them,

02:16:50.180 | which is an interesting point, to push that down.

02:16:52.500 | - I mean, that can be used to, yeah.

02:16:54.940 | - Well, you could use the jacket for the same kind of thing.

02:16:57.680 | Yeah, I don't know.

02:16:58.520 | I haven't really fully tested it.

02:16:59.660 | It's up to--

02:17:00.500 | - I'll say jacket or tie, for that perspective

02:17:02.820 | of off-balancing the person, it can be, yeah.

02:17:06.940 | Because you have control of the person's neck.

02:17:09.340 | The collar, the jacket moves.

02:17:11.940 | So for the purpose of off-balancing the person,

02:17:14.900 | I would agree with George.

02:17:16.860 | - See, the thing is, that's the thing about martial arts,

02:17:19.580 | is you can say all kinds of bullshit,

02:17:22.380 | but until you really test it,

02:17:24.580 | in over a period of years,

02:17:27.140 | the competition, you won't really know.

02:17:28.960 | I think that's where my gut says,

02:17:31.720 | just how easily the tie moves, my gut says the collar.

02:17:37.240 | There is something really powerful about the jacket.

02:17:40.060 | There's the way it sits.

02:17:42.860 | I mean, the fact that the arms trap it from rotating.

02:17:45.580 | It's a weird piece of clothing.

02:17:48.460 | It's a really dangerous piece of clothing

02:17:50.220 | that we put on ourselves.

02:17:51.340 | - Yeah. (laughs)

02:17:53.380 | - And it's kinda cool that we've developed

02:17:54.820 | this whole martial arts system that allows you

02:17:56.540 | to use that to do a lot of damage.

02:17:59.300 | It's very interesting.

02:18:00.560 | - So when we're saying something that you develop

02:18:02.780 | over the years or practice over and over again,

02:18:05.460 | going back to the efficiency of the mount or back,

02:18:09.060 | by experience of attacking people,

02:18:12.040 | people always had a much higher chance of escaping

02:18:17.900 | from the back than from my mount.

02:18:21.160 | So I feel if I mount and you get both my hands on your neck,

02:18:25.840 | you cannot escape.

02:18:26.700 | If my hands are deep, it's over.

02:18:29.340 | I don't remember anyone escaping,

02:18:33.020 | but I do remember if my hands are deep on your collar

02:18:36.480 | or even a real naked choke, it's still a hassle.

02:18:39.260 | Like, it's not clean.

02:18:40.580 | - You have some data on this.

02:18:42.460 | Is there some aspect to how your body is,

02:18:46.260 | the characteristics of your body,

02:18:47.860 | that fits a particular set of techniques?

02:18:50.860 | So if we just look at Jiu-Jitsu broadly,

02:18:52.860 | do you see most techniques being able to work

02:18:56.940 | for most people?

02:18:58.380 | Like, what you're saying about mount versus back control,

02:19:01.220 | is it possible for a different body type,

02:19:03.340 | the mount is not as effective?

02:19:04.840 | - Yeah, of course.

02:19:06.840 | I'll say very big people, they should mount.

02:19:11.340 | - You don't think of yourself as big?

02:19:13.420 | - No, big, I mean fat.

02:19:15.060 | They should stay off the mount.

02:19:18.420 | - Why is that?

02:19:19.260 | That's a connotation.

02:19:20.080 | - Mobility, it's like, I think that you don't see any,

02:19:24.060 | there was a few ways, like 160 kilo,

02:19:27.020 | like in pounds, I don't know, 270 pounds of a lot of fat.

02:19:32.020 | You need a bit of mobility,

02:19:36.740 | and that would play against you, even back.

02:19:41.460 | - A great mount requires mobility.

02:19:43.980 | So even though it doesn't look like you're moving

02:19:47.180 | very much when you're doing mount,

02:19:48.820 | that requires mobility?

02:19:50.400 | 'Cause you have to reposition and weight redistribution.

02:19:52.920 | - Constantly adjusting your body.

02:19:54.840 | - All right, the legend goes you got very good

02:19:57.360 | by training mostly with lower ranks.

02:19:59.840 | What was your training like in that environment?

02:20:02.240 | - So when I first moved to London, I was 20 years old.

02:20:07.200 | I opened my school there, and I had nobody to train with.

02:20:13.320 | I had one guy that was teaching with me

02:20:17.080 | a black belt, middleweight.

02:20:18.840 | He was good, and that's it.

02:20:24.420 | Braulio was, he moved to the same,

02:20:27.080 | he moved to England the same time as I did,

02:20:29.600 | but he was in Birmingham.

02:20:31.200 | So we did go together, maybe twice a week,

02:20:34.680 | close to when we were preparing for something.

02:20:37.580 | If not, then not very often.

02:20:40.320 | As often as we could, but let's say not that often.

02:20:44.400 | And I had just color belt students.

02:20:47.200 | There was no one high level,

02:20:48.600 | there was no one world champion in any belt to train.

02:20:51.240 | Then you need to create a scenario that simulates,

02:20:57.080 | that can simulate, like a realistic fighting.

02:21:02.080 | So I think on that aspect, when people said,

02:21:07.400 | people ask why do I have such a basic game?

02:21:10.380 | I think that also influenced me sharpen up all my skills

02:21:14.200 | when I moved there, because if you practice with people

02:21:18.920 | lower level than you, you cannot,

02:21:22.200 | there's nothing to learn from them.

02:21:26.560 | Or you can learn things and practice with them,

02:21:28.880 | but I would say very complex things on them,

02:21:31.880 | it is not the best.

02:21:33.040 | So I sharpen up all my skills.

02:21:36.160 | So that when I really improved everything

02:21:39.280 | that I already knew to a higher level.

02:21:42.080 | - But how can you sharpen something

02:21:43.720 | if the resistance is much lower level than--

02:21:46.680 | - A purple belt can make it very hard

02:21:48.560 | for you to escape side control.

02:21:49.880 | Doesn't have to be a world champion black belt.

02:21:52.640 | It's, you know, if it's, when it's holding you,

02:21:55.520 | it can be very hard.

02:21:56.600 | - What about on the attack?

02:21:57.880 | How do you become literally by far the best person

02:22:02.240 | at the cross choke from mount

02:22:03.920 | by training with purple belts?

02:22:05.420 | - It's sometimes purple belts

02:22:08.040 | defense way better than black belts.

02:22:10.240 | - Okay, see a lot of people listening to that

02:22:12.440 | would be like, that makes no sense, Hajo Gracie.

02:22:15.200 | How does that make any sense?

02:22:16.760 | - Because like a lot of the black belts,

02:22:18.960 | even world champion, they get to the black belt,

02:22:20.960 | they're really good in what they do.

02:22:23.920 | Let's say in the guard, you know,

02:22:25.880 | on top or the bottom position, but their defense are not.

02:22:29.400 | Like very, very few people, high level,

02:22:32.520 | have a very good defense because they don't practice.

02:22:35.880 | Then that goes back to how you train.

02:22:38.440 | You know, you can be very tough,

02:22:40.080 | very tough will make you terrible defense

02:22:42.760 | because you're not gonna practice your weakness.

02:22:45.320 | So your weakness still gonna be terrible.

02:22:47.680 | You're gonna have the best guard in the world,

02:22:49.520 | impossible to pass.

02:22:51.200 | The day people pass your guard, you're nothing.

02:22:54.000 | Like it's, your guard is high, the highest level,

02:22:58.640 | but your side control defense are not.

02:23:00.960 | Your mount defense are not.

02:23:02.360 | So some purple belts, they practice this, you know,

02:23:06.800 | the mount way more than the black belt did.

02:23:09.480 | So naturally, their defense is better.

02:23:11.640 | - So they get to experience the defensive position

02:23:14.240 | much, much, much more, and especially training with you,

02:23:16.680 | they get really good at defending.

02:23:19.200 | And then-- - Over and over again,

02:23:20.360 | you attack them with the same thing over and over again,

02:23:22.400 | they know what's coming, they will block.

02:23:24.360 | They will develop a defense over that.

02:23:26.600 | - Yeah.

02:23:27.560 | - Way better than most other high level black belts.

02:23:30.960 | - So both put yourself into really bad positions

02:23:33.600 | with low ranks and just keep attacking the same way

02:23:36.640 | over and over and over.

02:23:38.960 | - Yeah, and with that, you're able to be

02:23:42.480 | at the top of the world, at the world championships.

02:23:45.760 | - Yeah.

02:23:47.200 | - I mean, can you give some,

02:23:48.800 | what was the preparation like to a world championship

02:23:51.560 | with lower ranks?

02:23:52.480 | I mean--

02:23:53.960 | - I did a lot of boxing, a lot of conditioning.

02:23:57.600 | No, but-- - Conditioning is a big part of it.

02:23:59.600 | - But the one thing that helped me extremely

02:24:02.880 | living in England, in London, was training judo

02:24:06.800 | at the Budo Koi in London.

02:24:08.720 | That helped me massively because it gave me the motivation

02:24:13.040 | to learn something new because by then at the Budo Koi,

02:24:18.040 | the standup was, I'm sure today it is too,

02:24:22.040 | but by then was even higher than it is today.

02:24:24.640 | Like there was some very high level judo guys training there

02:24:28.520 | and the first time I went there,

02:24:31.280 | my standup was terrible compared to theirs.

02:24:34.960 | I mean, it was bad, but compared to them, it was terrible.

02:24:38.120 | So I was getting through like a child.

02:24:40.080 | And that motivate me to keep coming back and get better.

02:24:46.160 | So that made my jujitsu much stronger.

02:24:49.720 | I became, my base got better, my top game improved,

02:24:54.000 | my pressure game improved.

02:24:55.680 | - Does Neil Adams train?

02:24:58.640 | - Ray Stevens.

02:24:59.480 | - Ray Stevens.

02:25:00.320 | - No, I've never met Neil Adams.

02:25:01.920 | - Have you met Neil Adams?

02:25:04.080 | He's the voice of judo, I don't know if you watched

02:25:06.040 | the tournaments, he's incredible.

02:25:07.960 | - Yeah, Ray Stevens is a silver medalist in the Olympics.

02:25:12.680 | He won European, he won a lot.

02:25:14.760 | - So you did some judo training.

02:25:15.840 | What's your favorite throw, like a Soto?

02:25:18.200 | - Uchimata, I would say, if I would pick one.

02:25:20.600 | - So that made you better at jujitsu as well?

02:25:22.400 | - Yeah, yeah.

02:25:23.240 | And back then, like for the first,

02:25:27.800 | I would say maybe three years, maybe four,

02:25:31.080 | I went to Brazil for like two months before

02:25:33.880 | every major tournament.

02:25:35.600 | So I say, you know, I moved away from the school

02:25:37.520 | and I really focused, I was really well prepared

02:25:40.800 | with my judo and everything else,

02:25:42.200 | sharpen up my skills and then went to Brazil

02:25:45.680 | to train with like really high level people.

02:25:48.560 | So that way I would manage to compete in the highest level.

02:25:53.040 | - What advice would you give to,

02:25:55.360 | let's start with a complete beginner.

02:25:58.040 | So, you know, a bunch of people come up to me,

02:26:01.560 | they still wanna start doing jujitsu.

02:26:03.080 | What advice would you give them?

02:26:07.080 | - Try to absorb as much technique as you can

02:26:09.600 | and try to be as relaxed as you can.

02:26:12.320 | Don't, you know, don't desperately try to fight so hard.

02:26:18.120 | Like learn and move slow.

02:26:23.160 | - Move slow and relax.

02:26:26.360 | - That's the hardest thing to do.

02:26:27.960 | (laughs)

02:26:28.800 | The hardest.

02:26:30.280 | - You know what I find with people,

02:26:32.560 | it seems like it's hard to even know

02:26:35.120 | that you're not relaxed.

02:26:36.520 | It's like the introspection.

02:26:38.760 | They don't even know what it feels like to relax.

02:26:42.440 | - Not even know they tense.

02:26:44.000 | - Yeah, right.

02:26:44.840 | - They try to relax, look at you say,

02:26:46.200 | "What, what do you mean relax?

02:26:47.680 | I'm relaxed."

02:26:48.520 | - Exactly, exactly.

02:26:49.880 | - The arms are shaking.

02:26:50.960 | (laughs)

02:26:52.320 | - You feel it.

02:26:53.400 | And in terms of going slow, they're like,

02:26:54.920 | "Yeah, I'm going slow."

02:26:56.160 | No, you're not.

02:26:57.320 | - Yeah.

02:26:58.160 | - Yeah, there's a grace and elegance of movement

02:27:02.280 | that you can probably pick up from a lot of other disciplines

02:27:05.920 | like for me, I think that came from just learning piano

02:27:08.600 | at a young age.

02:27:09.440 | It's for, I think any mobility thing

02:27:13.360 | to learn how to move efficiently,

02:27:15.480 | you have to know how to relax.

02:27:17.040 | So it's just the fact that you can,

02:27:18.520 | like the body can be tense or it can be relaxed.

02:27:22.120 | Just knowing that fact.

02:27:23.240 | (laughs)

02:27:24.080 | - Now imagine your shoulders tense.

02:27:25.760 | - Yeah.

02:27:26.600 | - You think you play piano well?

02:27:27.600 | No, everything has to be relaxed.

02:27:29.600 | - I guess some of that is mind too,

02:27:31.560 | but just knowing that and being self-aware.

02:27:34.400 | But see like, even me, you know, approaching a thing,

02:27:39.400 | I'm not, I don't know anything about being a beginner.

02:27:43.560 | You're going to tense up.

02:27:44.800 | No matter, and like, it actually takes a conscious effort

02:27:47.360 | to think to relax.

02:27:48.760 | I mean, that's--

02:27:49.600 | - Massively.

02:27:50.440 | That's why learning things as an adult is much harder

02:27:53.240 | than as a child.

02:27:54.080 | Like it's very hard.

02:27:55.680 | And as an adult, it's like to get to the highest level,

02:27:59.520 | it's not possible.

02:28:01.360 | Because you will never relax the way you should.

02:28:04.800 | - Yeah, relax in the way that you become like water,

02:28:08.560 | but then you solidify in the right places.

02:28:11.000 | (laughs)

02:28:12.160 | Yeah.

02:28:13.000 | Yeah.

02:28:15.400 | Is there advice you can give to an adult?

02:28:17.520 | So like somebody that has a job, like a hobbyist,

02:28:20.600 | like how to progress, how to get--

02:28:21.800 | - I mean, train, just need to train as much as you can.

02:28:26.600 | Not, you know, five, seven days a week

02:28:29.160 | because you're gonna get injured.

02:28:31.160 | I mean, two, three times a week to start

02:28:34.200 | is the best way to initiate your jujitsu journey.

02:28:39.200 | And practice the same thing over and over again.

02:28:42.520 | When they don't work,

02:28:43.580 | it's just because you're not doing well,

02:28:45.380 | not because you have to learn something else.

02:28:47.800 | - Do you see some value in just picking a set of techniques

02:28:51.120 | that seem to draw your heart in?

02:28:54.120 | Like for example, I'll give you an example,

02:28:55.800 | you're gonna yell at me.

02:28:57.520 | But I never learned the close guard well.

02:29:02.520 | It just never connected with me.

02:29:07.440 | You could say it's body mechanics, whatever,

02:29:09.040 | it doesn't matter.

02:29:09.880 | The point is, it's just like my heart

02:29:12.360 | never connected with it.

02:29:14.320 | You know, the way I justified it to myself

02:29:16.440 | is I felt like when you're bad,

02:29:17.960 | you're using the close guard

02:29:19.240 | just like you could use the half guard to stall.

02:29:21.840 | So I was really drawn to the butterfly guard as a beginner

02:29:25.040 | because I thought, or open guard in general,

02:29:28.680 | I have no options to stall, so I'm going to learn.

02:29:32.400 | My thinking was, let me do the guard

02:29:35.100 | that enforces me to learn.

02:29:37.240 | And then I fell in love with the butterfly guard

02:29:38.840 | and the open guard and so on.

02:29:40.240 | And I never really understood the close guard.

02:29:44.200 | And the other thinking was,

02:29:45.640 | do I really need to understand the close guard?

02:29:48.840 | Because it's always by choice that I go there.

02:29:51.640 | So I can avoid--

02:29:52.760 | - I mean, you can avoid anything you want.

02:29:55.260 | (Lex laughs)

02:29:56.440 | I mean, you don't have to do anything.

02:29:58.880 | - In this life, yes.

02:29:59.720 | - It doesn't make you complete.

02:30:01.520 | That means you have a weakness.

02:30:02.360 | - But you want to be complete as a,

02:30:04.180 | this is the question,

02:30:05.160 | how valuable is it to be complete to get good?

02:30:08.840 | - Depends how good you want to be.

02:30:13.560 | - Okay, let's go.

02:30:15.200 | Well, there's several questions there.

02:30:17.100 | Yeah, okay, like to be the best in the world,

02:30:19.200 | do you need to be complete?

02:30:20.800 | - Of course.

02:30:22.320 | The best in the world, of course you have to be complete.

02:30:24.800 | Otherwise, somebody's gonna be better than you.

02:30:28.520 | - But what about, so to understand to defend,

02:30:31.480 | you have to be also good at the offense

02:30:33.160 | in every single position?

02:30:35.320 | - Otherwise, you have a weakness

02:30:37.360 | and someone can capitalize on that weakness.

02:30:41.040 | - Okay, what about to be like a hobbyist?

02:30:43.360 | - Then you don't have to.

02:30:44.520 | - But can you, or is it still bad?

02:30:47.520 | - I mean, it's not bad.

02:30:48.360 | I mean, nothing is bad.

02:30:49.480 | I mean, if as a hobbyist you start late,

02:30:52.320 | I mean, it doesn't matter how far you're gonna get.

02:30:55.280 | As long as you enjoy it, just train as much as you can.

02:30:58.920 | If it's twice a week, twice a week it is.

02:31:01.400 | You'll be limited how good you will be

02:31:04.120 | training twice a week, of course.

02:31:06.240 | Then the guy that trains twice a day,

02:31:08.680 | you know, it's just, the more you train, the better you get.

02:31:11.920 | - But you have to select what you train,

02:31:13.320 | that's what I'm asking.

02:31:14.160 | - I don't know, yes, but like for how long?

02:31:16.760 | Like there's some point in your life

02:31:18.680 | that you might try something, see if you like it.

02:31:22.080 | You know, there's some point in your life

02:31:23.600 | that you might, okay, let me try close guard.

02:31:25.640 | You might not like it now,

02:31:27.560 | maybe in two, three years from now.

02:31:29.920 | - Still don't like it.

02:31:31.200 | I kept trying it.

02:31:32.160 | Listen, 'cause, listen, it's very difficult

02:31:34.960 | to get any respect in jiu-jitsu.

02:31:37.080 | It's hard to get to black belt and beyond in jiu-jitsu

02:31:41.280 | at a respectable place and not have a good close guard.

02:31:46.120 | Close guard is--

02:31:47.680 | - Then don't do it.

02:31:48.800 | It's not necessary.

02:31:50.600 | - I'm being a rebel.

02:31:51.760 | - No, no, it's not.

02:31:53.080 | I'll say, because it's not a position

02:31:55.760 | that you want the pressure,

02:31:58.040 | that if you don't know, you'll be in trouble.

02:32:00.600 | You're not gonna be in trouble not to know the close guard.

02:32:02.760 | You're just gonna go straight for open guard.

02:32:04.480 | - I mean, the--

02:32:05.320 | - It's not a problem.

02:32:06.160 | - The main limitation is if you don't do close guard a lot,

02:32:09.080 | that you don't quite,

02:32:10.840 | you don't get a full, complete picture

02:32:14.680 | of understanding how to attack close guard

02:32:16.560 | when somebody puts you into a close guard,

02:32:18.280 | when you're on top.

02:32:19.480 | So it's nice to know both sides,

02:32:20.840 | if it's just to understand.

02:32:21.760 | - Yeah, but you can have a pretty good understanding

02:32:25.440 | of how to defend from the top and not having any bottom.

02:32:28.880 | - I mean, some of it is also just like the length of legs

02:32:31.240 | and just the geometry of your body.

02:32:33.320 | Nick, I'm sure Marcel Garcia has a good close guard, but--

02:32:37.720 | - I've never seen it.

02:32:38.560 | (laughing)

02:32:39.400 | - That's exact, that's the point I'm trying to make.

02:32:41.480 | (laughing)

02:32:43.360 | In theory, in theory, you can imagine it.

02:32:47.080 | - For a hobbyist, I think it's interesting to think of that.

02:32:50.080 | Is it possible to,

02:32:52.760 | is it possible to focus on a small set of techniques

02:32:59.640 | that help you to develop--

02:33:01.360 | - Of course.

02:33:02.200 | - Still into a good jujitsu player.

02:33:03.040 | - Yeah, of course.

02:33:03.880 | - And still enjoy and still be able to--

02:33:05.080 | - Most people hobbies in the jujitsu world, 99%.

02:33:10.080 | I mean, people that compete.

02:33:11.800 | - Even the people that compete and--

02:33:13.160 | - 1% max and you have high level competitors.

02:33:18.160 | Have no clue what close guard is.

02:33:20.320 | - Okay, thank you for making me feel good.

02:33:22.040 | No, I think you would say that most people don't have enough.

02:33:25.040 | Close guard is such a difficult position to understand,

02:33:29.520 | for me.

02:33:30.600 | - Maybe one day we'll brainwash.

02:33:32.200 | - Yeah, good.

02:33:33.280 | I felt it's too easy to stall versus attack.

02:33:38.280 | That was my main concern is like,

02:33:42.000 | I wanna be forced in every way to always be attacking,

02:33:46.880 | to always be moving, to always be,

02:33:48.880 | and it felt like if I got really good,

02:33:52.040 | I've seen it happen with half guard too.

02:33:54.800 | It's like when people get really good at half guard,

02:33:56.600 | it just feels stally.

02:33:58.240 | If you just look at the matches and so on,

02:34:01.280 | it's you slow things down to a thing that's not,

02:34:04.240 | you don't get reps on learning.

02:34:06.920 | You don't get action in interesting ways.

02:34:10.020 | So that was my worry, that I'll get old and fat

02:34:13.420 | and just sit in close guard all day,

02:34:15.980 | holding on to the white belts trying to kill me.

02:34:19.900 | 'Cause it's also, I mean, that's the other thing

02:34:21.500 | for hobbyists and for everyone is to,

02:34:24.980 | like when you first start, I think you have to relax

02:34:29.820 | in the face of the fact that you're just getting

02:34:31.780 | your ass kicked nonstop.

02:34:33.860 | That can also be really tough on the ego.

02:34:35.800 | I think probably the right way to see that

02:34:37.620 | is you're growing as a person.

02:34:39.900 | You see that clearly when they are in a bad position,

02:34:43.700 | let's say side mount or mount.

02:34:45.980 | Like a beginner, he will never relax on those positions.

02:34:50.220 | The moment that you say go, they like trying to

02:34:53.740 | (laughs)

02:34:55.060 | push you out and explode.

02:34:57.140 | There's no relaxation and work on the defense.

02:35:00.060 | It's like, no, it's out and go until I have zero to give.

02:35:05.060 | Until I'm exhausted, my arms cannot move.

02:35:08.600 | (laughs)

02:35:10.560 | - It's kind of fun to watch actually.

02:35:12.080 | What's the role of drilling?

02:35:13.480 | Do you like drilling?

02:35:16.360 | - I do not like drilling, but I'll tell you why.

02:35:18.760 | I think,

02:35:20.920 | fighting is mechanic, right?

02:35:25.880 | So it's very important to drill a move

02:35:29.520 | until you learn the mechanic.

02:35:31.120 | Of course it's important.

02:35:32.440 | If someone wanna teach you an arm lock,

02:35:35.600 | you wanna practice that movement

02:35:37.520 | until you learn the mechanic of it,

02:35:39.120 | but the guy's not resisting, so it's easy to apply, right?

02:35:42.420 | So you apply as many times as you have to

02:35:47.200 | until you know the mechanic of the moves,

02:35:49.080 | until you can apply the mechanics.

02:35:51.160 | The moment that you know how to apply,

02:35:53.320 | there's no more point in drilling.

02:35:55.040 | Now you have to practice.

02:35:56.640 | Now you have to practice with resistance.

02:35:59.440 | Of course you're not gonna practice

02:36:01.000 | with the guy fully resisting.

02:36:02.840 | The guy's better than you,

02:36:03.680 | 'cause he's not gonna give you a chance

02:36:04.880 | to practice that move.

02:36:06.000 | But you have to practice with resistance.

02:36:08.400 | So where does drilling comes on that?

02:36:11.680 | Is most of people, they flow drill and everything.

02:36:16.480 | I think whatever you do,

02:36:18.480 | you're conditioning your body to do something.

02:36:21.060 | You repeat the same move over and over again.

02:36:24.960 | Your body's conditioning to apply that movement

02:36:27.080 | or that technique.

02:36:28.800 | Drilling is not realistic

02:36:30.600 | because the other person's not resisting.

02:36:33.240 | The flow movement or whatever.

02:36:34.600 | After you go beyond,

02:36:36.360 | when you already know the mechanics,

02:36:39.800 | the drilling with no resistance

02:36:41.680 | is not gonna teach you anything

02:36:43.160 | because you will never know

02:36:45.080 | how to apply the movement with resistance.

02:36:47.540 | So it's pointless to carry on drilling

02:36:50.120 | after you learn the mechanics.

02:36:51.960 | - See, but you're making it sound easy

02:36:55.360 | to learn the mechanics, I would argue.

02:36:57.480 | - You can drill as many times.

02:37:00.100 | I'm not limiting how much you drill.

02:37:03.880 | You drill as long as you had to.

02:37:06.080 | I mean, it doesn't matter how long.

02:37:08.440 | - The benefit of drilling,

02:37:09.800 | and I'm just playing devil's advocate with you.

02:37:12.200 | The benefit of drilling is that

02:37:14.120 | you can more efficiently get a higher number of reps in.

02:37:16.920 | So--

02:37:18.840 | - What are you gonna gain with those reps?

02:37:21.880 | - Understanding the mechanics of the movement.

02:37:24.000 | And what I would like to argue

02:37:26.000 | is you don't necessarily need resistance

02:37:27.760 | to deeply understand the mechanics of something.

02:37:29.960 | Now, I don't know-- - I agree.

02:37:31.880 | - There's some moves, like I bet you,

02:37:36.880 | you could drill your way to an incredible mount.

02:37:41.260 | Mount is a good example of that.

02:37:44.680 | You don't really need a--

02:37:45.980 | I can imagine a world in which the resisting opponent

02:37:50.200 | is not essential for developing

02:37:52.320 | some of the very fine details of the mechanics--

02:37:55.840 | - Which one?

02:37:56.680 | 'Cause I don't know any.

02:37:57.960 | - What? - You say mount.

02:37:59.420 | - Yes.

02:38:01.320 | - What you're gonna achieve by drilling with no resistance

02:38:05.680 | after you learn the mechanics in mount.

02:38:07.520 | - But see, what I'm trying to tell you,

02:38:08.880 | the learning of the mechanics isn't a thing

02:38:11.000 | where you get a certificate and you're done.

02:38:12.920 | You're gonna learn the fine details

02:38:15.040 | of the way you redistribute your weight.

02:38:17.120 | You're going to learn how to move your,

02:38:18.960 | I don't understand mount, so--

02:38:19.800 | - Against a dead body.

02:38:21.160 | Like everything you do is a slow process in timing.

02:38:25.080 | - Timing, you can't learn--

02:38:27.240 | - You have to understand moving.

02:38:28.600 | - Okay.

02:38:29.440 | - If the guy's resisting, like he's not,

02:38:31.680 | I'm not gonna grab you and apply the movement.

02:38:34.120 | I need to grab you and feel when is the right time to do.

02:38:38.320 | Like that, it only comes with movement.

02:38:41.760 | If you're not fully resistant, how would I know?

02:38:45.140 | - You couldn't infer through it.

02:38:48.020 | It's like a--

02:38:49.520 | - With no movement, with no resistance.

02:38:51.480 | Like arm lock. - There's some resistance.

02:38:52.960 | - Okay, arm lock, let's say arm lock.

02:38:55.160 | - Okay.

02:38:56.000 | - Okay, let's say you've been drilling for a week.

02:38:57.760 | - Yeah.

02:38:58.640 | - Five hours a day.

02:38:59.920 | You should be an expert with the mechanics.

02:39:02.280 | But now, how, are you gonna carry on drilling?

02:39:07.560 | With no resistance?

02:39:08.480 | - No, yeah, I mean, yes.

02:39:10.000 | - After that week, drilling five hours a day,

02:39:13.460 | the arm lock, you still have no clue

02:39:16.200 | how to apply the arm lock against a resisting opponent.

02:39:19.320 | No clue, zero.

02:39:20.480 | - Yeah.

02:39:21.320 | - So you don't know the movement, you know the mechanic.

02:39:23.160 | Which is, you know, it's like how long you have to drill

02:39:26.920 | and how, that doesn't matter, it varies of the person.

02:39:30.520 | You can drill for a month.

02:39:32.000 | After that month is over, you should understand

02:39:34.640 | how the mechanic works.

02:39:36.360 | You still have no clue how to apply the movement

02:39:38.400 | against a resisting opponent.

02:39:40.000 | You will never, ever know how until you apply

02:39:43.000 | with a fully resisting opponent.

02:39:44.880 | - Yeah.

02:39:45.720 | - That's the only way to know, to really learn a movement.

02:39:49.400 | - Yes, well put.

02:39:51.200 | But the question is, can you have a small percentage

02:39:54.920 | of time when you go against a resisting opponent

02:39:57.160 | to get the wisdom and the insight of what it takes

02:39:59.400 | to perform that movement, and you spend a large percentage

02:40:02.480 | of other time just practicing the mechanics of it?

02:40:05.920 | So like, do you need to, as you get better and better

02:40:10.920 | at technique, to basically drift away completely

02:40:14.560 | from drilling and more into the sparring?

02:40:17.840 | I'd like to, I just--

02:40:20.000 | - You like drilling?

02:40:21.000 | - No, I don't like drilling.

02:40:22.760 | Well, yes, I like drilling, I would say.

02:40:25.080 | But I just see, it always bothered me

02:40:26.840 | in the jiu-jitsu community how few people really

02:40:30.000 | saw the value of drilling.

02:40:30.840 | I see it in wrestling, especially in the Russian style

02:40:33.560 | of wrestling, like the value of drilling.

02:40:35.800 | I don't necessarily mean that it's like a dead body

02:40:38.680 | or like a dummy or something like that,

02:40:40.480 | but just getting the reps in, really focusing

02:40:43.480 | on the high amount of reps.

02:40:45.680 | - I agree in wrestling and judo.

02:40:49.000 | I agree that drilling is very important.

02:40:50.640 | Initial drill of 1,000 times each move.

02:40:52.760 | - Yeah, judo's a really big one for that, too.

02:40:54.360 | - It is, because it's the movement, the timing,

02:40:59.360 | you know, it's the precision of the movement.

02:41:02.640 | It has to be perfectly, because it's one movement.

02:41:05.960 | Then you learn about the timing of the movement

02:41:08.760 | when you're fighting, but during fighting,

02:41:10.680 | you only need to know the time,

02:41:12.760 | 'cause your body movement is exactly the same

02:41:15.040 | when you drill.

02:41:16.040 | - That's really well put, yeah.

02:41:17.240 | The mechanics is much more important there.

02:41:19.280 | - Yeah, but it's completely different for jiu-jitsu,

02:41:22.040 | because let's say from jiu-jitsu, like the arm lock,

02:41:25.600 | for example, we use that as an example.

02:41:27.640 | Let's say from the close guard.

02:41:29.000 | Even my close guard, before I go for the arm lock,

02:41:31.800 | I need to have a set of grips.

02:41:33.680 | Let's say I have your collar and your arm, right?

02:41:36.200 | And then, you know, when you're drilling,

02:41:38.280 | I'm gonna grab your arm, I'm gonna grab your collar,

02:41:40.720 | and I'm gonna drill my body until I can apply

02:41:43.080 | the arm lock and finish.

02:41:44.400 | And I can do that 1,000 times.

02:41:46.560 | Okay, now we're fighting, we start with the grip.

02:41:49.640 | The moment that I initiate the arm lock attack,

02:41:51.840 | you will defend, the arm lock will not work.

02:41:54.520 | So it's not the one movement that will get me

02:41:56.840 | to attack the arm.

02:41:57.680 | There's a combination of other things that I need to do.

02:42:01.640 | I need to feel about your weight, you know,

02:42:03.880 | I need to get you close to me.

02:42:05.120 | There's so many other things involved that I need to feel

02:42:08.960 | that only comes with a fully resistant opponent.

02:42:14.320 | - Yeah, so pretty quickly it has to be live.

02:42:18.000 | - Yeah.

02:42:18.840 | And then it comes how you practice, how you train.

02:42:25.000 | You're starting on that position and just saying, let's go.

02:42:28.960 | And the moment that we disengage from that position,

02:42:31.840 | we go back, that's when you really learn.

02:42:34.520 | Because everything that you do wrong,

02:42:36.040 | you're gonna go back there, and you're gonna try again,

02:42:38.440 | try again, try again.

02:42:39.600 | And the repetition, it will teach you,

02:42:42.800 | have a feeling of timing, when to go,

02:42:46.760 | if there's other combinations,

02:42:49.000 | which you always has, to go with it.

02:42:52.200 | - By the way, for the internet that's currently yelling

02:42:56.360 | at me for arguing with Haja Gracie about drilling,

02:42:59.280 | that's called playing devil's advocate

02:43:03.040 | to strengthen, to explore ideas.

02:43:04.760 | I'm not actually arguing.

02:43:06.400 | Okay.

02:43:07.240 | I forgot to ask you.

02:43:11.840 | If you had to fight against the bear, lion, gorilla,

02:43:14.360 | or anaconda to the death, which one would you choose?

02:43:18.400 | And would you be able actually to win against any of them?

02:43:23.080 | - We'll have bear, a lion, a tiger, or anaconda.

02:43:28.080 | - Oh, gorilla too, gorilla.

02:43:30.480 | You can go gorilla.

02:43:31.440 | - I'll probably choose the anaconda.

02:43:35.120 | (laughing)

02:43:37.360 | - I mean, you're not allowed to run away though.

02:43:41.800 | So you're in a cage.

02:43:43.440 | Do you have to kill?

02:43:46.320 | - Still the anaconda.

02:43:49.240 | - So the anaconda.

02:43:51.320 | - I think I have no chance against any other ones.

02:43:53.400 | - Zero chance.

02:43:54.240 | That's what John thinks.

02:43:55.400 | I think--

02:43:56.240 | - I have a tiny little against the anaconda.

02:43:58.600 | (laughing)

02:44:00.800 | - Just wait it out.

02:44:02.320 | You don't think it's possible to be,

02:44:04.400 | I just, it feels like technique

02:44:10.240 | can do something against these animals.

02:44:12.400 | But they have so much strength, so much aggression.

02:44:14.600 | - You know, the real naked joke,

02:44:17.240 | translating to Portuguese, is kill the lion.

02:44:19.960 | So ever since I was a kid, I always thought

02:44:25.880 | that maybe if I get behind a lion,

02:44:28.480 | the real naked joke, which in Portuguese it says,

02:44:32.000 | mata leão, so mata leão means kill the lion.

02:44:36.160 | So I always thought that that's the only way

02:44:38.600 | to kill a lion, or to, you know,

02:44:41.000 | if you're fighting against a lion,

02:44:41.840 | you go behind him, put the real naked joke,

02:44:44.240 | I think you put him to sleep.

02:44:46.320 | The name mata leão is like kill the lion.

02:44:49.880 | Someone came up with the name.

02:44:51.800 | Why?

02:44:52.640 | - Somebody must have.

02:44:53.480 | - Maybe someone, he going to fight with the lion,

02:44:55.840 | choked him up.

02:44:56.680 | - There you go, John.

02:44:57.520 | There you go.

02:44:59.120 | Honestly, do you think, or so, actually, yeah,

02:45:00.680 | you understand controlling positions.

02:45:03.200 | Do you think an animal like a gorilla or a lion

02:45:06.640 | would shake you off?

02:45:07.840 | If you had back full, you're locked in.

02:45:10.440 | - Well, I would say the one that'll have

02:45:12.600 | the biggest chance of staying there is the lion

02:45:15.800 | 'cause he's the thinner body.

02:45:17.520 | He's smaller than a tiger, I guess.

02:45:19.680 | Think tigers are bigger?

02:45:21.400 | - Yes.

02:45:22.240 | So do you think they can shake you off, though?

02:45:24.360 | - I think I'll have a bigger chance of staying

02:45:27.320 | against a lion's back than any other animal.

02:45:30.120 | - Still not answering the question.

02:45:31.600 | Do you think you have a chance?

02:45:33.380 | - If I start on the back?

02:45:35.680 | - If you start full locked in, full controls,

02:45:38.280 | let's say it's a small enough lion

02:45:39.560 | that you can actually have a full--

02:45:41.400 | - I would guess so.

02:45:42.360 | I mean, I would like to believe so.

02:45:44.320 | Okay.

02:45:45.760 | - Well, just like you said,

02:45:46.840 | somebody must have been able to do it.

02:45:49.240 | Throughout your journey in jiu-jitsu,

02:45:50.980 | have there been low points?

02:45:52.600 | Like, has there been points

02:45:53.600 | where you really doubted yourself?

02:45:55.680 | - No, I've never really doubted myself.

02:45:58.200 | There's low points in defeats.

02:46:00.640 | Those are the low points when I lost.

02:46:03.400 | - How did you deal with defeats?

02:46:05.960 | - I just went back to the gym next week

02:46:08.040 | and say I need to get better.

02:46:09.480 | That every time I lost, I'm like,

02:46:12.280 | I need to get better 'cause I need to choke them out.

02:46:15.360 | I need to submit them because, you know,

02:46:18.280 | win by points, it's, as a black belt,

02:46:22.400 | I have very, very little loss.

02:46:24.680 | I would say, I mean, I don't like to sound

02:46:29.520 | like a crime baby, but I'll say most,

02:46:31.760 | most of those loss was very, very controversial.

02:46:35.080 | - Yeah, it was not a dominant, clear performance.

02:46:37.760 | It's about referees and points and so on.

02:46:39.880 | - Everything was, since I was very young,

02:46:42.560 | I always fought against my opponent and the referee.

02:46:45.480 | Like, it's, if there was ever in my whole life,

02:46:48.440 | since I was a kid, there was ever a doubt,

02:46:52.160 | they always go to my opponent, always, always.

02:46:55.360 | That was just something that I had to deal with

02:46:57.240 | my whole life.

02:46:58.080 | - Yeah, what's the motivation behind,

02:46:59.920 | what led to the fact that you win most of your matches

02:47:02.160 | by submission or in dominance?

02:47:03.800 | Like, are you chasing?

02:47:05.360 | - Because that's the only way to prove you better.

02:47:08.560 | And I'm never, I never fought to win tournaments.

02:47:12.360 | That was never my goal.

02:47:13.520 | That was the consequence of me trying to be the best.

02:47:16.880 | Like, I don't care how many titles I have.

02:47:20.040 | I care about, I need to beat all my opponents

02:47:24.160 | and not, not win because win is not enough.

02:47:28.440 | I have to submit them.

02:47:30.120 | That's the only way to prove I'm the best, to submit them.

02:47:34.360 | If I win by advantage or a point,

02:47:37.360 | that means I was better than them that day.

02:47:39.160 | That does not mean I'm better than them.

02:47:41.160 | If the top, if I take you down,

02:47:46.240 | pass your guard, mount you and submit you,

02:47:49.600 | there's zero questions who's the best.

02:47:52.440 | Like, there's nothing you can say about it.

02:47:54.680 | If I foot sweep you, you put your butt on the floor,

02:47:58.280 | I get an advantage.

02:47:59.880 | We carry on fighting and I win, means nothing.

02:48:02.440 | Not even means I'm better than you.

02:48:05.480 | - And if that happened, that would haunt you.

02:48:08.840 | - For me, it's not enough.

02:48:10.960 | I wouldn't be happy.

02:48:11.960 | - What advice would you give to young folks

02:48:17.480 | who look at you, who are able to accomplish

02:48:20.840 | from a place where you're not very good

02:48:22.960 | to becoming the best in the world at a thing?

02:48:25.920 | What advice would you give them

02:48:28.120 | to have a journey like that,

02:48:30.000 | to have a journey where they could be successful

02:48:31.800 | in their career and their life to such a high level?

02:48:36.040 | - Determination is the most important thing.

02:48:39.960 | You need to know where you're going to get there.

02:48:44.400 | So you need to have a goal, whatever that goal is.

02:48:47.760 | Like, you need to set that goal for yourself

02:48:50.720 | so you know where you wanna go.

02:48:52.840 | And to have the determination to get there

02:48:56.080 | and be sure that you will fail many times.

02:49:01.000 | Like, you cannot let your failures bring you down

02:49:04.960 | because you will fail many times.

02:49:08.080 | Everybody does.

02:49:09.120 | - So you said you didn't look to external sources

02:49:12.800 | of belief, you just believed in yourself.

02:49:17.760 | Is there something to that where you have to try

02:49:21.320 | to be your own source of belief,

02:49:26.320 | flame the fire within yourself?

02:49:32.040 | Was that something difficult to do?

02:49:34.080 | - That was just very natural for me.

02:49:36.800 | I said, you can surround yourself with great people.

02:49:43.040 | That is extremely important.

02:49:46.040 | Don't surround yourself with failures

02:49:48.560 | because they're not gonna push you to,

02:49:52.360 | they don't know what it is, how to get there.

02:49:57.120 | I mean, everybody knows,

02:49:58.240 | but when you surround yourself with winners,

02:50:01.560 | you will know what it took them to get there.

02:50:04.600 | Use them as an example.

02:50:06.120 | - Yeah, there's a certain kind of aura to people

02:50:10.240 | that just achieve great things and being around them.

02:50:13.040 | But still, it's hard to find people that,

02:50:15.280 | especially at that early stage.

02:50:17.160 | - Any area.

02:50:18.640 | - Yeah.

02:50:19.480 | - Any area.

02:50:20.320 | - That's right.

02:50:21.400 | Yeah, greatness has a certain,

02:50:23.080 | I think it's almost humbling just to see,

02:50:25.000 | okay, any human, at least that's a lesson I learned.

02:50:28.120 | Almost any human can be great.

02:50:31.480 | - I mean, one, I've used Muhammad Ali as a great example.

02:50:35.400 | Look at his belief.

02:50:37.200 | Look at how much he believed himself

02:50:39.080 | before he was Muhammad Ali.

02:50:41.760 | Look at the determination he had,

02:50:44.120 | the way, the confidence he had fighting,

02:50:46.920 | even on his loss.

02:50:48.320 | It never changed him.

02:50:50.920 | Not when he fought Foreman, George Foreman.

02:50:55.280 | Not one person in the world thought

02:50:57.720 | he was gonna win that fight by himself.

02:50:59.720 | He never doubted himself.

02:51:02.760 | Everybody else did.

02:51:04.000 | He won over all odds against.

02:51:08.320 | So, I mean, when you look at people like that,

02:51:12.200 | you don't have to be a boxer to try to follow his example.

02:51:17.200 | - But see, those are like epic, giant battles,

02:51:21.400 | but I feel like you fight the same kind of battle

02:51:23.360 | when you're young and your parents tell you that,

02:51:26.040 | you know, just with their whole energy that this is silly.

02:51:28.560 | Don't be silly.

02:51:29.400 | Don't be silly to chase.

02:51:30.960 | - It's harder.

02:51:32.440 | It is harder.

02:51:34.040 | But as a kid, it's harder to deal with that

02:51:36.920 | because, I mean, to go against adults,

02:51:39.760 | especially parents telling you otherwise,

02:51:42.680 | like the amount of strength you need is gigantic.

02:51:47.680 | I don't even know how much strength you need

02:51:50.160 | 'cause that was not my case.

02:51:52.800 | So I can understand what you have to go through

02:51:56.120 | with the force of your parents telling you otherwise.

02:51:59.360 | But it's how much you want,

02:52:03.000 | it will dictate how far you're gonna go,

02:52:06.440 | where you're gonna go.

02:52:07.320 | So if you can break through that, you'll get nowhere.

02:52:11.400 | It's that simple.

02:52:13.040 | - And actually, one of the really nice things

02:52:15.320 | the internet does that I would give advice to young people

02:52:18.320 | is like you can find,

02:52:20.040 | even if your parents are not a source of that,

02:52:22.600 | your teachers, your community,

02:52:24.380 | you can find people on the internet who will believe in you.

02:52:26.760 | It's kind of cool.

02:52:27.680 | It's kind of cool how the internet opens the possibility

02:52:30.440 | of a community of 10, 11-year-olds building shit.

02:52:35.080 | I see this all the time.

02:52:36.080 | Engineering, I mean, they're fueled by belief.

02:52:40.320 | They want to create the next trillion dollar company.

02:52:47.620 | There's that fire in their eyes.

02:52:50.720 | And not for the money, obviously,

02:52:52.000 | but to do something really impactful.

02:52:54.200 | And I think that fire is extinguished often

02:52:56.640 | by teachers and parents.

02:53:00.520 | 'Cause I think the logic that parents have,

02:53:03.920 | and teachers, they look at a kid,

02:53:06.800 | and they don't, on the surface level,

02:53:09.320 | they don't see greatness.

02:53:10.900 | They just see kind of mediocrity.

02:53:14.960 | And so to them, it's like, no, all right,

02:53:17.200 | the world is more complicated than that.

02:53:18.960 | In order to get great, you have to,

02:53:20.880 | they somehow kind of always try to be reasonable with you,

02:53:25.760 | and in so doing, extinguish the flame.

02:53:27.680 | It's weird.

02:53:28.520 | - I think most people are afraid to even try.

02:53:34.040 | So you can call them cowards for not trying,

02:53:36.360 | because you are a coward for not trying,

02:53:39.520 | not putting yourself at risk, right?

02:53:41.780 | So I would say a big part of society

02:53:46.780 | are cowards for never trying,

02:53:49.400 | never pursuing what they really want.

02:53:52.480 | There is a weight, a pressure, everyone, most people,

02:53:59.000 | a lot of people, I'll say, around you,

02:54:03.040 | that because they were afraid to try,

02:54:05.800 | they don't incentivize people to do so,

02:54:09.320 | because they want everybody to be like them.

02:54:13.060 | Because imagine if everybody around you

02:54:16.320 | suddenly are not afraid, and everyone is trying,

02:54:18.900 | and you look yourself in the mirror,

02:54:20.700 | and say, I was too scared, I've never tried.

02:54:23.480 | So you feel really bad about yourself.

02:54:25.320 | So it's easier to have people around you

02:54:28.160 | that think exactly like you than otherwise.

02:54:31.840 | So that reflect a lot on the kids.

02:54:34.440 | It's society almost like press them down

02:54:38.040 | to be like everybody else, to have a normal life,

02:54:41.720 | normal job, it's don't take risk,

02:54:44.760 | because you can lose it all.

02:54:46.660 | I mean, that's the worst thing you can tell everybody.

02:54:49.840 | Take all the risks, lose it all a few times.

02:54:52.880 | That's how you're gonna build things.

02:54:54.720 | - Especially when you're young.

02:54:55.760 | - Yes.

02:54:56.600 | - You can recover much quicker.

02:54:57.420 | - Exactly, what's the point of not trying?

02:54:59.840 | You should try, and you will lose everything.

02:55:03.920 | Doesn't matter what it matters to lose everything.

02:55:08.600 | It does matter, it will teach you resilience.

02:55:12.600 | You know, try harder, go after.

02:55:14.800 | Don't live a normal life,

02:55:18.680 | because otherwise, what are we here for?

02:55:21.680 | - Yeah, take big risks, take a lot of them,

02:55:24.020 | fail and fail and fail and fail.

02:55:24.860 | - Of course, fail a thousand times.

02:55:27.760 | Until you succeed, and then you're gonna,

02:55:30.600 | you'll be the most proud of yourself.

02:55:32.800 | Like, there's, then it'll be priceless.

02:55:36.000 | It's, then we'll change the world.

02:55:38.680 | - It is true that most people are not necessarily cowards,

02:55:43.060 | but have cowardice in them.

02:55:44.840 | - It's most people are just afraid to try, you know.

02:55:47.760 | - And a lot of it comes from a place of love,

02:55:49.440 | because, you know, if you try and you fail, you get hurt.

02:55:54.440 | - It hurts, I mean, it's not a pleasant thing to fail.

02:55:59.440 | I mean, you feel terrible to think, you know,

02:56:05.000 | when I lost any tournament was a good thing.

02:56:07.840 | You know, and think when I was getting beat up

02:56:10.040 | at the gym over and over again was a good thing.

02:56:12.520 | When I was getting there and getting smashed

02:56:14.080 | by all the good guys, to think I liked it.

02:56:16.800 | Well, I hate it, but it's my resilience that, you know,

02:56:20.240 | make me carry on until I succeed.

02:56:22.720 | Think I like to get tapped?

02:56:24.640 | Well, I'm the most competitive,

02:56:26.080 | one of the most competitive person you know.

02:56:27.880 | I hate to lose, but I accept.

02:56:32.200 | I mean, I just need to get better.

02:56:35.240 | Every single time I lost in the championship, I hate it.

02:56:40.000 | I've never screamed, no one never saw me screaming,

02:56:42.720 | shouting that, you know, I got robbed.

02:56:44.880 | You know, I should have won, the referee,

02:56:46.880 | you know, screwed me over.

02:56:49.640 | I mean, it's, okay.

02:56:52.280 | It happen, shit happens.

02:56:55.320 | I need to get better,

02:56:56.640 | 'cause I don't wanna be in that position ever again.

02:56:59.400 | So when I fight, if I'm better,

02:57:02.120 | if I tapped him, there's no question.

02:57:04.840 | I don't need to wait for the referee to decide

02:57:07.680 | that there was points or no points.

02:57:09.560 | If, you know, his interpretation, that made me better.

02:57:14.080 | 'Cause I was even more determined to be better.

02:57:17.400 | In my mind, I have to tap everybody else.

02:57:20.360 | Winning is not enough.

02:57:22.640 | It's just objectively speaking,

02:57:25.160 | what you learn the most from

02:57:28.200 | is really wanting to succeed and then failing.

02:57:31.800 | And doing that often.

02:57:35.560 | That's the reality from a parent,

02:57:36.920 | from a teacher perspective, from anybody,

02:57:38.840 | from people you love.

02:57:40.440 | If they really wanna do something, help them do that thing.

02:57:44.520 | If you think they're gonna fail, good.

02:57:46.480 | Help them do that faster so they fail faster.

02:57:48.880 | - Of course. - They're gonna learn.

02:57:50.520 | The only way to succeed is failing.

02:57:52.640 | There is no other way.

02:57:53.800 | That's what people have to understand.

02:57:55.880 | Without failing, there is no success.

02:57:58.680 | - Since you've gotten a little softer,

02:58:03.200 | a little more emotionally open,

02:58:05.280 | what's the role of love in the human condition,

02:58:07.480 | Hajo Gracie?

02:58:08.640 | - Probably the most important thing.

02:58:10.480 | That's the basic of everything, right?

02:58:13.800 | It's, I mean, love brings the best of us.

02:58:17.000 | It's if we had more love and compassion

02:58:20.000 | from the other person,

02:58:22.360 | I think the world would be a more evolved species.

02:58:26.480 | The world would be a much better place than it is now.

02:58:28.600 | - Did friends, family help you along the way?

02:58:31.160 | - Yeah, a lot.

02:58:32.600 | I always had a lot of love and help from many people.

02:58:35.760 | That's why I succeed.

02:58:36.640 | I've never got here by myself.

02:58:38.320 | I had a lot of people who loved me,

02:58:42.000 | believed in me, and helped me get to be here today.

02:58:45.280 | - Well, I'm glad they did.

02:58:48.160 | And I'm glad you're here today.

02:58:49.280 | I'm a huge fan.

02:58:50.120 | It was an honor to meet you.

02:58:51.800 | It was an honor to hang out with you in Vegas,

02:58:54.240 | to hang out with you again today.

02:58:56.160 | I've just been a huge fan for a long time.

02:58:58.480 | - My pleasure, man.

02:58:59.320 | - Thank you for everything you're doing.

02:59:00.760 | Thank you for this conversation.

02:59:02.200 | It was awesome.

02:59:03.040 | - Thank you very much.

02:59:04.040 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

02:59:06.400 | with Hajo Gracie.

02:59:07.640 | To support this podcast,

02:59:08.840 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

02:59:11.440 | And now, let me leave you with some words

02:59:13.520 | from Hajo Gracie himself.

02:59:15.920 | Jiu-jitsu is simple.

02:59:18.360 | You just have to do it right.

02:59:19.920 | Thank you for listening,

02:59:22.120 | and hope to see you next time.

02:59:23.960 | (upbeat music)

02:59:26.560 | (upbeat music)

02:59:29.160 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Roger Gracie: Greatest Jiu Jitsu Competitor of All Time | Lex Fridman Podcast #343

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