Emily_Luk_revised
00:00:00.000 | Hello everybody, it's Sam from the Financial Samurai podcast and in this episode I have
00:00:13.440 | a special guest with me, Emily Luck, co-founder and CEO of Plenty, a wealth platform for modern
00:00:20.560 | couples.
00:00:21.560 | She previously worked at Stripe and Even, which was acquired eventually by Walmart.
00:00:26.900 | Welcome to the show, Emily.
00:00:27.900 | Thank you so much for having me, Sam.
00:00:29.720 | So in this episode, I'd love to talk about modern couples.
00:00:34.140 | What is the definition of a modern couple today and what are the challenges modern couples
00:00:38.260 | face?
00:00:39.260 | Great question there.
00:00:40.260 | So a lot of how we think about modern couples is really looking at the partnership structures
00:00:44.020 | that people in their 20s and 30s or 40s are now in.
00:00:48.260 | And right now what we see is that one of the biggest things as defining modern couples
00:00:53.220 | is that unlike older generations, 80% of couples both work.
00:00:58.020 | And so there's this built-in independence that is just a natural part of the relationship.
00:01:02.900 | And so that's one of the things we think a lot about when we define modern couples.
00:01:06.140 | So in terms of modern couples, 80% work.
00:01:08.780 | Do you remember what it was like, I guess, pre-70s, 1970s, 1980s, where was that inflection
00:01:15.100 | point?
00:01:16.100 | Yeah, it was actually below 50% and oftentimes also from a career perspective and from an
00:01:21.500 | income perspective, if both partners worked, there used to be a much bigger disparity between
00:01:26.900 | the incomes that it was really more of like a part-time role or a role that had fewer
00:01:32.260 | hours in order to support the partner.
00:01:34.180 | I think both because people are more and more educated as well as people are also thinking
00:01:39.180 | more about cost of living being increasing, what they'd like to do with their families
00:01:43.820 | also requiring more, there's now more of a pressure need as well as more of a desire
00:01:49.180 | to build your own career and maintain that while also having a family.
00:01:54.100 | Right.
00:01:55.100 | So I guess, as I think about it as a father, I would love for my son to work and my daughter
00:02:00.380 | to work and to have dual income, but at the same time, there definitely are challenges
00:02:05.380 | in place, especially if you want to have family.
00:02:08.940 | So what are some of the biggest problems modern couples face today that were different from
00:02:14.700 | in the past?
00:02:15.700 | Yeah, well, I think actually this is something that we are seeing everywhere internationally
00:02:21.140 | right now, both within the US but also in other countries where one of the things that
00:02:26.620 | also marks this generation of modern couples is that very often they're moving away from
00:02:30.900 | home.
00:02:31.900 | And when they're moving further away from home, they really lose that community of family
00:02:35.660 | support and that is cited to be one of the most common reasons why also there is this
00:02:40.460 | decreasing birth rate because when you don't have as much support, many couples are now
00:02:46.340 | deciding to just have fewer kids to make it work, especially when daycare expenses are
00:02:51.420 | so high.
00:02:52.900 | They might need to both juggle trying to have their own busy careers while also trying to
00:02:59.020 | figure out a way that they are able to be present.
00:03:02.540 | And oftentimes the decision is just we'll have one fewer or two fewer.
00:03:06.100 | Yeah, it's interesting about moving away.
00:03:08.860 | One of the things I was thinking about was, you know, there's like a statistic that says
00:03:12.180 | that 80% to 90% of the time you spend with your child is over by the time they turn 18
00:03:17.340 | or 19.
00:03:18.340 | And so one of my thoughts was, well, why don't I just move closer to where my children are?
00:03:23.200 | What are your thoughts about that strategy and why don't you think more parents – why
00:03:27.740 | don't they move closer?
00:03:28.740 | So, sure, like parents, they're set in their ways but after they retire, they have more
00:03:33.040 | freedom and they can follow along and go where their children are.
00:03:36.620 | I mean, does that sound a little crazy or does that sound kind of logical if you want
00:03:39.500 | to spend more time with your children?
00:03:40.500 | It doesn't sound crazy to me at all.
00:03:42.020 | And I actually think that will be a really big trend that will only increase over the
00:03:45.540 | course of the next decade, especially as we look at the baby boomer generation and they're
00:03:49.260 | moving more solidly into retirement.
00:03:51.340 | They also have the financial access in terms of being able to have the ability to move
00:03:55.660 | to different places.
00:03:57.100 | So I actually think that's going to be increasingly common over the course of the next 10 plus
00:04:01.140 | years.
00:04:02.140 | I think though there is some reality where if you built your life in the city, you have
00:04:05.820 | your friend group, you have your community, it can also be really difficult to uproot
00:04:10.300 | and move especially if it's to a new city where you don't know as many people, you
00:04:14.340 | don't have as much community and to do that in a way that's also healthy for your kids
00:04:18.100 | where there isn't a deep reliance there.
00:04:20.500 | Yeah.
00:04:21.500 | I'm just thinking to myself, I know it'd be hard to move in the future but I mean,
00:04:26.900 | I think it's also fun to meet new people and watch them grow up and then just have
00:04:31.580 | no regrets.
00:04:32.580 | So yeah, the challenges of childcare I guess for modern couples is a big one.
00:04:37.420 | What about the challenges of a dual career track where sometimes I see one spouse or
00:04:43.760 | one partner really rising up the ranks and then the other one might get maybe jealous
00:04:49.460 | of that success and maybe that's more of a male thing that I've seen, I've read
00:04:53.900 | where a man might feel intimidated or threatened by their partner who happens to be a woman
00:05:00.100 | climbing up the corporate career ladder or business ladder.
00:05:03.620 | What are your thoughts about that dynamic?
00:05:04.780 | Yeah.
00:05:05.780 | So there was actually a great report that came out recently talking about also what
00:05:09.940 | happens in different partnerships where one individual is a higher earner and what are
00:05:14.900 | some of the dynamics that actually play out in terms of the amount of household chores
00:05:19.100 | that each person does.
00:05:20.860 | So that was a fascinating study but I think one of the things that is almost just at the
00:05:24.580 | core of any healthy relationship is – and the way we see it and Channing and I talk
00:05:28.940 | about this too – is at the core of one person being able to do what they do, oftentimes
00:05:33.580 | that's as a result of the support of the partner.
00:05:36.540 | I think a lot of times it can be a very healthy practice and gratitude to your partner and
00:05:41.320 | also reinforcing.
00:05:42.320 | It's like, "Hey, I'm able to do this because of the support that you're able
00:05:45.600 | to give and so this is us winning, this is us really achieving together and it's not
00:05:50.700 | really as much of like you're off on your own and you did this completely independently
00:05:54.940 | and it wasn't like you had a whole family of support behind you as well."
00:05:57.500 | I actually think that's a lot of ways like relationship best practice.
00:06:02.180 | But I do think about it.
00:06:03.180 | So if you have two highly motivated individuals trying to grow their careers, sometimes their
00:06:09.300 | careers oftentimes are highly demanding and they might pull one partner to a different
00:06:14.620 | location, to a different office, more hours and then ultimately something has to give.
00:06:21.060 | How do modern couples manage that where both are super high career oriented, they're
00:06:25.260 | working so many hours and they have to travel?
00:06:27.780 | Any thoughts and tips on that?
00:06:29.140 | Well, I think it's definitely a tricky dynamic.
00:06:31.900 | It's one where it usually what we've seen from a lot of relationships is first and foremost
00:06:37.260 | it starts off with open communication and also just making sure that both partners are
00:06:41.620 | aligned on the value behind why that role or that job or that progression is so important
00:06:47.380 | and making sure that they both feel comfortable with it.
00:06:49.780 | I think where we've seen actually the most friction and there's a fantastic book that
00:06:53.300 | I'll send you a link for so you can share with everyone where it's a book written about
00:06:57.180 | relationship principles by a divorce lawyer.
00:06:59.540 | And one of the things he talks about is one of the first things that breaks down is really
00:07:02.980 | the ability to and desire to communicate about what's important.
00:07:07.420 | Is this like, how do we think about this?
00:07:10.060 | Making sure we're on the same page, that we're acting as a team, even if one person is really
00:07:13.340 | the one going out to take that work trip internationally, for example.
00:07:17.100 | Starting off with communication.
00:07:18.260 | But I think one of the things that is also helpful is, and I think this is actually where
00:07:23.060 | in the '50s and '60s and '70s, this conversation didn't even exist, where there is some more
00:07:29.260 | of this concept of taking turns and I support you, you support me, instead of it just being
00:07:34.220 | unilaterally in one direction.
00:07:36.140 | And I think that's also something that we're increasingly hearing and seeing in modern
00:07:40.220 | couples relationships, which is more of this, "Hey, it's not just that one person is forever
00:07:44.780 | going to support the other person, it's, "Hey, maybe this time it's your turn.
00:07:49.220 | And maybe next time when there's an opportunity, it's my turn."
00:07:52.740 | And I think that's actually so important in having that balance.
00:07:55.380 | Right.
00:07:56.380 | Taking turns is a big one.
00:07:57.820 | Yeah.
00:07:58.820 | I just remember hearing so many stories about, "It's your turn for the next five to 10 years
00:08:02.780 | to see how high you can climb in your career."
00:08:04.860 | And then, "Okay, now I'm done.
00:08:07.180 | Maybe it's time to be a stay-at-home parent.
00:08:08.700 | It's your turn for the next five to 10 years."
00:08:11.020 | And that concept is quite interesting.
00:08:13.340 | I do wonder, today's modern couple, how do couples now view divorce?
00:08:22.300 | Is it less taboo now than it was back in the day?
00:08:24.940 | I think people, our generation also uniquely grew up as the generation of, as kids who
00:08:32.940 | in the parents' generation, 50% of parents had a divorce.
00:08:36.860 | And so I think there's actually a much greater awareness.
00:08:40.140 | One thing that's actually fascinating is that if you look at divorce rates currently in
00:08:44.500 | the country and you start to look at it by age, there hasn't been a dramatic change in
00:08:49.900 | the rate of divorce for people who are getting married in their late teens and early 20s.
00:08:54.900 | But if you look at individuals who are getting married more in their late 20s and 30s, currently
00:09:00.220 | at least they're trending towards a much lower divorce rate than our parents' generation.
00:09:07.020 | My theory behind that is having grown up in that dynamic, I think people are more intentional.
00:09:12.540 | I think there's much healthier conversations about what it takes to build a partnership
00:09:17.460 | and a relationship, what's required.
00:09:20.580 | Even the concept of being vulnerable, being open, having conversations about topics that
00:09:26.020 | are hard, having the set of things you should talk about before marriage, these are just
00:09:30.300 | becoming increasingly more common conversations and topics that really were more on the fringe
00:09:35.860 | of what society was really thinking about 30 years ago or 40 years ago.
00:09:43.380 | And so with Plenty, I decided to build Plenty as a wealth platform for modern couples.
00:09:49.860 | What does that mean exactly and how does Plenty differentiate itself from other platforms?
00:09:54.580 | Yeah.
00:09:55.580 | Great question.
00:09:56.580 | First and foremost, we're the first wealth platform to really be focused on building
00:10:00.220 | for couples.
00:10:01.740 | As we think about our product functionality, every single product feature and product we
00:10:06.180 | offer is really built from that perspective of how do we support these couples who either
00:10:11.880 | want to work towards their goals together by actively saving and investing.
00:10:16.580 | That can be a goal for a home renovation, that can be a goal for buying a home, that
00:10:20.100 | can be having a kid, or you can also share information about where you are and what's
00:10:25.460 | currently happening by flexibly connecting your accounts, setting some accounts to be
00:10:30.780 | private or saying, "Hey, some of these accounts, I'd like to share the information with my
00:10:34.820 | partner."
00:10:35.820 | So we can have more open conversation, understanding where are we today, what's happening with
00:10:40.820 | our money today from a spend perspective, our saving and an investing perspective, and
00:10:45.540 | then just making it really easy to say, "Hey, we want to work towards these things together.
00:10:49.040 | Let's just take action," and you can just directly save and invest with Plenty.
00:10:52.860 | Right.
00:10:53.860 | You know, what's interesting is how there's like this, what is it called, bimodal or multiplayer
00:10:58.620 | function where you see your own accounts and your joint accounts.
00:11:03.500 | Tell me a little bit more about that private setting.
00:11:06.900 | In what instances would a couple want to share accounts but keep some of the accounts private?
00:11:13.140 | Yeah.
00:11:14.140 | Great question.
00:11:15.140 | So this is something we hear a lot from our couples, which is in many relationships nowadays,
00:11:20.860 | even if they decide to both deposit their paychecks into the same joint account, it's
00:11:26.100 | very common to have some amount of money that is pushed into your own personal accounts,
00:11:31.340 | and there might even be a credit card that's attached to it so you can spend out of it.
00:11:35.340 | But oftentimes, we hear couples say, "Hey, it actually feels like more freedom for me
00:11:40.140 | to have some credit card or some amount of money where I can just do whatever I want.
00:11:44.980 | We don't need to check with each other.
00:11:46.500 | Maybe if it's over a certain dollar amount, then we'll just run it by each other, but
00:11:49.980 | hey, there's still like some freedom and it's not fully like each person has to monitor
00:11:55.100 | what's going on.
00:11:57.020 | Each person has a say over every single dollar that's spent."
00:12:00.460 | We've seen that and increasingly do believe that that is a relationship best practice
00:12:04.180 | where, yeah, there is some transparency, but going from 80% transparency and openness to
00:12:09.700 | 100%, that's a big difference.
00:12:11.900 | For a lot of couples, especially when you're so used to managing your own money, you've
00:12:15.900 | been independent for so many years, then that's usually that happy media where you're like,
00:12:20.660 | "Hey, I still feel like we're still doing most, if not the majority of our financial
00:12:25.940 | decisions together, but I still have my freedom.
00:12:28.940 | You still have your freedom."
00:12:30.460 | Whether you want to go invest that yourself, you can do that.
00:12:34.140 | Whether that is you want to go buy a surprise gift for your partner, you want to go on a
00:12:37.260 | trip with your sibling, any of these, that's all open.
00:12:41.340 | Got it.
00:12:42.340 | No, that makes a lot of sense.
00:12:44.220 | What's interesting is there's this term called financial infidelity where I guess that one
00:12:51.300 | person or one partner cheats in terms of spending money where he or she shouldn't have or there
00:12:57.620 | was no discussions.
00:12:58.620 | What are your thoughts on the concept of financial infidelity and as it pertains to private versus
00:13:05.260 | joint and looking at everything?
00:13:07.540 | I think financial infidelity, there's a few layers there where it is the most common reason
00:13:12.860 | for divorce nowadays.
00:13:14.820 | I think largely that comes out of a few places.
00:13:18.380 | One, when couples don't have a place to understand where they are together and they don't have
00:13:24.620 | a practice of looking at that together, it becomes much easier for one person to be in
00:13:31.140 | the know and the other person to really not have an understanding of what's happening.
00:13:36.940 | We oftentimes, the way we think about this is there's first that layer of deception,
00:13:42.780 | which can be intentional or unintentional.
00:13:45.740 | One of the things is by having a place where you can go reliably to actually see and understand
00:13:50.700 | where things are, that's a really important first step to prevent going down that path.
00:13:56.200 | The other thing that we also think about is there is that act of trying to deceive or
00:14:01.980 | to hide or actively lying and as part of that, that's usually, and the way we see it is usually
00:14:09.260 | those are conversations that just weren't had.
00:14:13.540 | Whether it is an investment decision, whether that is a spend decision, there is probably
00:14:19.940 | before you get to that point of actually having an event that people would consider to be
00:14:24.740 | it cheating there, there's many, many years of built-up practice of not knowing how to
00:14:30.140 | talk about money together, not feeling like you can easily share with your partner about
00:14:35.820 | an investment or a spend decision, which are the two most common times when that happens.
00:14:42.020 | It ends up just being a lot of complication built up over time, where then you get to
00:14:47.180 | this point where the mistakes, the hiding becomes more common and bigger.
00:14:52.940 | Then usually the thing that's really tough is one person is blindsided by the truth.
00:14:59.020 | All of that has to play out, but it doesn't just happen overnight.
00:15:01.980 | I think for many relationships, this is something where they could have had great intentions
00:15:06.820 | going in, but this could even have been one person feeling like, "Oh, I want to take care
00:15:11.860 | of my family.
00:15:12.860 | My partner just doesn't quite know and gets overwhelmed with financial information.
00:15:18.180 | Maybe I'll just do this," and then they try to do what's best for the family and maybe
00:15:21.620 | they make an investment decision that's a little bit riskier.
00:15:24.780 | Maybe they'd purchase something for the family, like a whole life insurance plan, for example,
00:15:30.840 | where they think it's the right thing and they end up not consulting their partner,
00:15:35.580 | their partner not really understanding what's going on or being brought along for the journey.
00:15:40.100 | Then they end up in this situation where maybe there's a negative consequence.
00:15:43.620 | It was much more expensive.
00:15:44.980 | It was a bad investment and that shocks the other person who thought everything was okay
00:15:50.420 | because they just defaulted to one person taking care of everything.
00:15:54.660 | It can be much more common and it can be also out of the best intentions, but oftentimes
00:15:59.060 | it roots from not having a built-in practice of talking about money together and open.
00:16:03.780 | Right.
00:16:04.780 | Switching topics a little bit in terms of getting married, do you see more and more
00:16:10.500 | of your colleagues getting married much later and do you have friends or colleagues who
00:16:17.260 | actually regret getting married later because they're too focused on their careers?
00:16:21.180 | Yeah.
00:16:22.180 | It's an interesting time.
00:16:23.760 | Many of the people in my life right now, they're in their 30s and 40s.
00:16:28.660 | One of the things that we're seeing a lot is both, especially in the urban cities and
00:16:33.580 | if you look at a lot of the data, you'll see that the average age for marriage has
00:16:37.540 | just consistently gone up.
00:16:40.300 | Right now we're in urban centers.
00:16:43.660 | More people are generally getting married in their early 30s and some of the other areas
00:16:48.900 | too and more diverse areas around the country that tends to be more your late 20s.
00:16:54.100 | What we're also seeing is that there is also an increase in the average age where people
00:16:59.140 | are starting to have their first child.
00:17:01.980 | The reality is, is unfortunately our biological clocks have not changed that much.
00:17:07.860 | There's a lot more technology in terms of being able to have fertility treatments, but
00:17:12.220 | what actually becomes a much more common conversation in your 30s is also just the cost of fertility
00:17:18.020 | treatments and sometimes that also becomes something that is so prohibitive that maybe
00:17:24.380 | people decide to have fewer kids or are not able to have kids and it was an unexpected
00:17:30.340 | consequence of kind of everything, you know, spending more time working, getting married
00:17:35.820 | later, potentially meeting your partner later and then you end up in this situation where
00:17:40.660 | it's, you know, there are some things that unfortunately you just can't control.
00:17:44.500 | Right, right.
00:17:45.500 | Do you know the cost of one IUI and one IVF cycle nowadays?
00:17:51.020 | So right now what we've seen is for an egg freezing cycle, it depends on the city and
00:17:56.840 | I think there's now great programs that have financing, but usually it is between that
00:18:01.460 | $12,000 to $25,000 for an egg freezing cycle.
00:18:04.900 | Wow.
00:18:05.900 | For many couples that are, you know, and many ladies who are let's say in their mid 30s
00:18:11.460 | when they do that cycle, usually they need to do multiple rounds.
00:18:15.180 | Sometimes you'll get this covered by insurance, but oftentimes very little of it is actually
00:18:20.100 | covered by insurance.
00:18:21.740 | And then what we've also seen from quotes is that the actual IVF treatment is another
00:18:27.140 | 25 to 50,000 depending on where you're located.
00:18:31.260 | And again, one round might not be enough.
00:18:33.980 | You might have to do multiple rounds.
00:18:35.940 | And so it's not uncommon where if you do need support, you're looking at, you know, hundreds
00:18:43.040 | of thousands of dollars because you need so many rounds of egg freezing, so many rounds
00:18:47.300 | of IVF and hopefully you're able to have a child.
00:18:51.180 | But for so many couples that prices them out in terms of what's reasonable, what's affordable
00:18:56.380 | or people end up, you know, taking a second mortgage on their home because that's the
00:18:59.940 | only way that's possible.
00:19:00.940 | I mean, that sounds like a lot.
00:19:02.840 | So there's egg freezing and there's the IVF cycle.
00:19:05.140 | I didn't think about the double impact.
00:19:07.180 | So that could be 20 to 50,000 per cycle and there's no guarantee that that cycle will
00:19:13.400 | retrieve an egg and implant and, you know, have a successful pregnancy.
00:19:18.240 | So for listeners out there, 20 to $50,000 is a lot of money.
00:19:23.120 | So I would say, I would think strategically maybe one is to look at your company benefits
00:19:27.840 | and see if they provide that.
00:19:29.760 | You've heard places like Google and Facebook do that, but you know, those places are tough
00:19:34.040 | to get jobs.
00:19:35.480 | What are some other strategies couples can think about so they don't have to spend all
00:19:39.940 | that money and that time?
00:19:41.580 | Yeah.
00:19:42.580 | So one tip that I wish more people talked about and it's something where after I saw
00:19:47.380 | the data, it was shocking to me was one of the very common, if you look at the statistics,
00:19:54.860 | if you're by the time you're in your late twenties and early thirties, if you were to
00:19:59.700 | try to donate your eggs, you're actually considered to be an older donor and they actually don't
00:20:05.460 | try to get donations for eggs at that point.
00:20:09.700 | So they really are focusing for a lot of these fertility clinics, they really focus on getting
00:20:14.020 | egg donors who are in their early to mid twenties because that's usually when the quality of
00:20:18.580 | the eggs are the highest.
00:20:20.660 | Paradoxically though, the egg freezing industry and a lot of fertility industry focuses on
00:20:26.260 | ladies in their thirties and especially the egg freezing.
00:20:29.780 | It's almost like this strange, you know, reality where it seems like from a business perspective,
00:20:34.980 | they're focusing on the people who are most likely to want to do it quickly, as well as
00:20:40.340 | be able to afford it.
00:20:41.660 | One thing that you can do is over the course of your twenties and your thirties, there
00:20:46.020 | usually is a decrease in both quality as well as the quantity of eggs that each woman will
00:20:52.180 | have.
00:20:53.220 | And so one thing that you can do as a financial planning decision is actually, I would even
00:20:59.340 | think of this potentially like even earlier that you're thinking really about life insurance
00:21:03.660 | and all that is you can do your egg freezing at an earlier age, and you're more likely
00:21:09.900 | to not need as many cycles to still get more eggs.
00:21:13.380 | And they're also usually a higher quality of eggs is something, you know, that I ended
00:21:17.900 | up being very lucky.
00:21:18.900 | I talked to a lot of people who had unfortunately been through very hard fertility cycles and
00:21:24.380 | treatments, some of which were successful, some of which were.
00:21:27.980 | And because of that, I ended up making the decision to actually freeze my eggs when I
00:21:31.820 | was 27, and it was a financial decision.
00:21:34.940 | I did think of this as an investment, but I also realized and knew that it would actually
00:21:40.340 | give me the ability and give me the reassurance to really control a little bit more of the
00:21:45.020 | timing for when I might want to have kids.
00:21:49.340 | And a little bit too was like, it's less, you know, the timing for maybe the first child,
00:21:54.420 | but really if we were thinking of having more than one child, having that is almost the
00:21:59.760 | insurance policy.
00:22:00.760 | Now it's something very lucky, but there's also lots of ways to do your egg freezing
00:22:04.860 | cycle in more cost-effective ways, especially if you're willing to go internationally.
00:22:08.740 | Got it.
00:22:09.740 | You know, it's interesting because I think it's hard enough for people to save for retirement
00:22:14.580 | when they see retirement so far away.
00:22:17.340 | I wonder if it's even harder for a woman to decide to freeze her eggs if they don't even
00:22:23.440 | see someone in their lives yet.
00:22:24.900 | I mean, what do you think is a harder decision deciding to pay money to freeze your eggs
00:22:29.640 | for family planning purposes and cost-saving purposes or to save for retirement?
00:22:33.900 | Yeah.
00:22:34.900 | I mean, I think if you are an individual who you feel pretty sure and you're pretty calm
00:22:41.700 | and central about you want to have kids, it could be one, especially if you haven't met
00:22:46.460 | your partner yet.
00:22:47.820 | That's actually when we've seen most people actually go through an egg freezing cycle.
00:22:53.080 | It gives you more time.
00:22:54.240 | It makes you also not feel like as pressured to meet someone quickly because you have a
00:22:58.380 | little bit more control and freedom there.
00:23:00.220 | That was actually one of the things that I completely underestimated was I kind of rationally
00:23:04.180 | was like, "Okay, I'll have this insurance policy."
00:23:06.300 | What I underestimated was psychologically how much relief I would feel from feeling
00:23:10.620 | like, "Oh, I actually do have this, so whether or not we want to take more time, we want
00:23:15.940 | to wait a little bit more, I'd like to invest in my career a little bit more," whatever
00:23:19.460 | that is, and we make the decision to start trying to have kids later, I still have something
00:23:24.860 | covered and it's not like at that time that we need to potentially be thinking about fertility
00:23:28.980 | treatments right off the bat.
00:23:30.420 | Right.
00:23:31.420 | What do you think about the loneliness situation in America in terms of meeting people post-pandemic?
00:23:40.460 | Do you feel that people need to spend less time focusing on their careers and making
00:23:45.420 | money and saving for retirement and more time focusing on meeting people?
00:23:49.700 | Why is it so hard nowadays, especially with all the online ways to meet?
00:23:54.860 | Yeah.
00:23:55.860 | Zeezan Sari has this book called Modern Love and there's this one part that he talks
00:24:00.940 | about that I absolutely love and I agree with so completely.
00:24:05.500 | There's this concept that when you have more choice, you're actually strangely less
00:24:10.860 | likely to be happy with the choice that you make.
00:24:14.260 | I think unfortunately with these apps and I've been on them and I've experienced
00:24:17.980 | them, you get such a high volume of people that both it takes time to interact and engage
00:24:24.340 | and be witty and funny and then actually go out on that first date.
00:24:27.820 | But also when you have that first date, you're also more likely to be like, "That was
00:24:33.460 | good.
00:24:34.460 | Is there more?
00:24:35.460 | Oh, it's such a low friction to being like, "Oh, I'm just going to keep looking."
00:24:41.660 | I think one of the things that he talks about in the book that I appreciated a lot was you
00:24:45.540 | can go to a really great Italian restaurant, right?
00:24:48.780 | You pull up Yelp or OpenTable and you go to this fantastic Italian restaurant, maybe it's
00:24:52.180 | even the best one that you've been to and are you likely to go back or are you more
00:24:56.700 | likely to be like, "I want the next best Italian restaurant next time I'm going out
00:25:01.060 | for dinner.
00:25:02.060 | I want variety.
00:25:03.060 | I want to go somewhere else."
00:25:04.900 | I think especially in a place where decades ago there wasn't really the availability
00:25:09.300 | of apps in the same way.
00:25:10.740 | You really had to meet people.
00:25:11.860 | You actually were spending more time with an individual getting to know them.
00:25:16.580 | I actually created a little bit of this rule actually after reading this book, which was
00:25:21.660 | even if it was someone where I was like, "Okay, I think this is interesting," at what scale
00:25:28.540 | of good or great, I still commit to a second date.
00:25:32.820 | I really give and invest the time to get to know someone a little bit more and oftentimes
00:25:37.180 | it was actually surprising.
00:25:38.180 | I realized like first impressions and first dates weren't necessarily predictive.
00:25:43.860 | I think that's something too where when you have so many choices, you're also less
00:25:49.940 | likely to invest that time and are you really going to be able to deeply get to know someone
00:25:55.060 | over an hour and a half?
00:25:58.020 | I think everyone has their own way of doing it, but that's some of the things I'm even
00:26:01.180 | thinking about.
00:26:02.180 | There's also a really great book called The Paradox of Choice written by a psychologist
00:26:06.300 | about exactly this and so I would also highly recommend that as a read because I think it
00:26:12.620 | helps frame up the reality that when you have so much choice, it's not always a better
00:26:17.900 | thing for people.
00:26:18.900 | Right.
00:26:19.900 | Do you think on the dating app or even in your professional LinkedIn profile, it's
00:26:24.420 | better to have a better looking picture of yourself than in reality or as close as possible
00:26:30.180 | or slightly worse looking picture of yourself than reality in terms of managing expectations?
00:26:35.860 | Well, I think there is some combination of putting your best foot forward and so I think
00:26:43.220 | actually the best profiles, you have pictures of you doing the things that you most enjoy,
00:26:50.140 | the hobbies, really feeling like you can actually give people a sense of who you are.
00:26:54.620 | I do think that if you're editing the photo, that's probably not a great idea because
00:27:00.020 | you don't want someone to meet and then you're like, "Oh, that was completely different
00:27:03.900 | from what I thought."
00:27:05.020 | I think there's also the stereotypical photos that are fairly overdone, which are like the
00:27:09.980 | "I pet the tiger in Thailand" photo and that was very common for a long time and
00:27:15.300 | I think still is, less in touch with that at this point but I think there is the ability
00:27:22.660 | to use the photos to really convey parts of who you are, like maybe you love travel, you
00:27:27.380 | love cooking and I think that's actually helpful and important because it just gives
00:27:31.940 | people insight very quickly, it's like photos worth a thousand words, like very, very quick
00:27:36.460 | essays.
00:27:37.460 | Right, right.
00:27:38.460 | It's kind of a chicken or the egg because if you don't have a great photo, that might
00:27:41.980 | make you look better than you really are, you might not get any leads.
00:27:46.680 | But if you have a really great photo and then you meet the person in person, then you might
00:27:52.140 | be shocked on the downside.
00:27:54.500 | So that is an interesting dilemma.
00:27:56.540 | Personally, I would shoot for more realistic as possible or even below expectations because
00:28:01.900 | if you never get the leads, you never know what you're missing, so it's okay.
00:28:05.300 | And then you can surprise on the upside in person.
00:28:08.340 | Yeah.
00:28:09.340 | And I also think one of the things that I appreciate, I would say there's all these
00:28:13.780 | different apps and they're structured a little bit differently in terms of how you
00:28:17.020 | might meet and how you might interact but I do think the ones that really focus on being
00:28:22.900 | able to actually put some text that you're answering some questions, there's a little
00:28:28.140 | bit of an opportunity, again, to show who you are without using just photos.
00:28:33.820 | When you interact, the number of people I've met who talk about how ineffective apps are
00:28:40.700 | for meeting people and then when you dig into it, it's like, "Oh, what's the first
00:28:44.500 | message you're sending?"
00:28:45.500 | And they're like, "Hey."
00:28:46.500 | It's like, "Okay."
00:28:49.020 | That wasn't a ton of effort that you put into writing a witty response.
00:28:53.420 | It's like you got to give someone something to engage with and I think that's also a
00:28:56.780 | part of being interested, being willing to invest the time and energy to be like, "Hey,
00:29:03.180 | I came across an individual that I actually think is really interesting.
00:29:06.740 | I see all these different facets of them.
00:29:08.940 | Let me actually spend the time to now think about a way to actually engage with them instead
00:29:12.960 | of doing like, how do I send 60 Hayes in one night and see if one person gets back to me?"
00:29:18.700 | Got it.
00:29:19.700 | Well, let's talk about Plenty a little bit.
00:29:22.860 | What type of couple should sign up for Plenty?
00:29:25.060 | How can Plenty help them?
00:29:26.500 | We typically meet couples at all different stages of their relationship and so really
00:29:31.940 | where it starts to make sense is at a time when you're starting to combine your finances.
00:29:37.740 | So where we most commonly see that for a lot of couples is they're really at a point where
00:29:43.340 | maybe they're engaged and they're tired of doing the Venmo split-wise, per-transaction
00:29:51.080 | splitting and they're really thinking about, "Okay, we're building a life together.
00:29:55.040 | We are actively working towards these big goals."
00:29:57.860 | Maybe they're thinking about paying for a wedding, they're thinking about saving towards
00:30:00.180 | a house and that's where we often start meeting a lot of couples.
00:30:04.940 | Another moment that we start to hear a lot of times is at a moment right around when
00:30:09.180 | people are getting married, there's much more of a focus on, "Hey, I really want to make
00:30:12.900 | sure that you're able to have some visibility into our finances, my finances."
00:30:19.460 | So that's another moment where once sharing visibility also becomes important, whether
00:30:24.220 | that's over spending, other accounts we have, 401(k)s, investment accounts, that's another
00:30:31.180 | moment where there's incremental steps taken to combine finances more and more.
00:30:37.540 | What we're also seeing a lot of times is when you enter these life moments and chapters
00:30:42.380 | where you're really tied together in terms of doing things financially, most commonly
00:30:48.400 | when you are thinking about buying a house together, when you are thinking about or having
00:30:52.920 | a kid together, those are then the other steps.
00:30:56.220 | I think of it almost as increasingly in our parents' generation, what's very common is
00:31:01.780 | you get married usually in your early, mid-20s, and just combine everything day one and everything
00:31:06.660 | is fully joint.
00:31:07.660 | Usually you're only at one or two banks.
00:31:09.980 | What we're seeing a lot of times for couples is that's not the reality and combining finances
00:31:15.060 | is actually a set of incremental steps.
00:31:17.460 | It's almost like going up the staircase, like first staircase is, "Hey, let's start saving
00:31:21.540 | and investing together," second staircase is, "We're going to start sharing some visibility
00:31:25.780 | in addition to the goals that we have," and then the next step tends to be, "Oh, maybe
00:31:30.340 | there's this big life milestone, like buying a house or having a kid," where we're really
00:31:34.860 | starting to think, and we have more reassurance because we've been together for so many years,
00:31:39.340 | we've been combining our finances for so many years, where now we're thinking about reducing
00:31:44.020 | some of the complexity to maybe cut down on the number of accounts we have and start to
00:31:47.820 | consolidate a little bit more of what we're doing and what we have.
00:31:51.580 | Got it.
00:31:52.580 | No, I mean it definitely sounds like a great wealth platform to use.
00:31:56.620 | Where can people sign up?
00:31:57.980 | Yeah, great question.
00:31:59.380 | Our website is www.withplenty.com and right now we have a waitlist but are excitedly bringing
00:32:06.700 | people on and we are working towards fully launching the product in the first half of
00:32:10.660 | the year.
00:32:11.660 | All right, Emily.
00:32:12.660 | Well, it was great talking to you.
00:32:13.660 | Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts and we'd love to have you on again.
00:32:17.700 | Thank you so much, Sam.
00:32:18.700 | Appreciate you having me here.
00:32:19.860 | This was a great conversation.
00:32:20.860 | All right, everyone.
00:32:21.860 | If you enjoyed this podcast, I'd love a share, subscribe, and a positive review.
00:32:25.700 | It helps keep me going.
00:32:27.740 | Every single episode takes hours and hours to produce and if you want to keep in touch,
00:32:32.100 | check out the Financial Samurai newsletter at financialsamurai.com/news.
00:32:35.260 | Talk to you all later.
00:32:38.780 | [music]
00:32:43.780 | you
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