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Why You Feel Tired, Burn't Out & Overwhelmed All The Time (How To Fix It) | Cal Newport


Chapters

0:0 The operations of overload
2:8 Back and forth interaction
4:18 Cal experience with overload
6:2 Workers and email
10:38 Solutions to overload

Whisper Transcript | Transcript Only Page

00:00:00.000 | how does overload actually operate?
00:00:03.880 | So I want to take a closer look at that.
00:00:06.720 | And we'll do some questions about overload.
00:00:08.780 | And then we'll switch gears at the end
00:00:10.160 | to talk about something interesting.
00:00:12.580 | Alright, so let's talk about overload.
00:00:14.460 | When you get a work commitment that you agree to,
00:00:18.440 | it's broken into or we can break it
00:00:20.100 | into two different parts, execution and overhead.
00:00:24.020 | So execution is actually executing the work
00:00:27.960 | required by that commitment.
00:00:29.240 | So if we take an article that you're writing,
00:00:32.440 | as an example, the execution is actually writing the article.
00:00:35.360 | You're at the word processor,
00:00:36.400 | you're putting the words there.
00:00:38.440 | The overhead is everything that goes around it.
00:00:41.360 | The back and forth communication
00:00:42.920 | to set up the interview with someone.
00:00:45.680 | I'm trying to arrange a time with my editor
00:00:48.920 | to go over these changes.
00:00:50.320 | The fact checker and I need to get on the same page.
00:00:53.160 | So it's the collaboration and coordination
00:00:56.700 | that surrounds the actual execution of the work.
00:01:00.040 | Now, when most people think about being overloaded,
00:01:03.200 | they think about execution.
00:01:06.200 | The total amount of things I actually have to do
00:01:09.640 | has piled it up to a point where I don't even think
00:01:12.280 | I have enough time to get it done.
00:01:14.040 | This is the classic understanding of overload.
00:01:16.560 | This is what students suffer from.
00:01:18.920 | When they realize tomorrow, I have to get this paper done
00:01:23.520 | and I have this test and I have to finish this problem set.
00:01:26.240 | And if they look at the actual work they have to execute,
00:01:28.200 | the writing, the studying and the solving of the problems,
00:01:30.280 | the amount of time required to do that
00:01:32.560 | is more than they really have hours
00:01:34.360 | between now and when these things are due.
00:01:36.180 | So execution, if you have too much total execution to do
00:01:40.040 | for the time you have available
00:01:41.240 | can create a sense of overload.
00:01:43.080 | In most knowledge work settings, however,
00:01:47.260 | we don't get anywhere near
00:01:49.820 | the execution demands being too large.
00:01:52.800 | The source of overload for a lot of knowledge workers
00:01:55.120 | actually comes from the overhead component.
00:01:58.500 | The coordination and collaboration activities
00:02:02.240 | that surround the work we do can fragment up,
00:02:06.640 | can muck up, can make hard to pass your schedule
00:02:11.640 | much quicker than the actual execution can.
00:02:13.800 | And the reason why this is,
00:02:15.920 | is partially the nature of the work,
00:02:17.800 | not the time required by it.
00:02:19.860 | Overhead often requires coordination
00:02:21.960 | or collaborations with other people.
00:02:23.800 | This requires back and forth interaction.
00:02:26.380 | I have to send you an email,
00:02:28.080 | hey, what do you know about this?
00:02:29.280 | And you send back, I don't really know.
00:02:30.720 | And you say, well, maybe we should talk about it.
00:02:32.080 | You say, sure, when are you free?
00:02:33.680 | And you say, well, how about Monday?
00:02:34.960 | And you say, well, Monday's not good,
00:02:36.240 | but maybe Tuesday or Thursday.
00:02:37.480 | Like, well, let me give you some time
00:02:38.400 | for Tuesday and Thursday.
00:02:39.760 | There is a lot of back and forth that happens.
00:02:42.400 | And as we talked about commonly on the show,
00:02:44.720 | back and forth generates context switching.
00:02:46.880 | I have to keep switching my attention
00:02:48.560 | back to this conversation
00:02:50.360 | every time I need to service
00:02:51.920 | or move this conversation forward.
00:02:55.720 | Coordinate overhead also creates just other landmines
00:02:58.760 | on your schedule, such as meetings.
00:03:01.600 | Now we should probably just get together and discuss this.
00:03:03.640 | We should probably hop on a call
00:03:04.960 | and just see what's going on about this.
00:03:06.720 | And now you have this part of your schedule
00:03:08.320 | where in the lead up to it,
00:03:09.500 | you have to wind down what you're doing,
00:03:11.360 | switch over and talk to someone.
00:03:13.080 | And then you have a period after a while
00:03:14.360 | to kind of switch your gears after that.
00:03:16.500 | So you start peppering your schedule
00:03:17.860 | with these meetings that overhead creates.
00:03:20.240 | That also makes it difficult,
00:03:21.820 | makes the environment difficult to pass for execution.
00:03:25.640 | So you can fill up a schedule,
00:03:29.360 | making it so that very little execution can get done.
00:03:32.800 | You can fill up a schedule with overhead much quicker
00:03:36.960 | than you can fill up a schedule with execution.
00:03:39.960 | Most of the things we actually do in knowledge sector jobs,
00:03:43.000 | if you add up the minutes or hours required
00:03:46.120 | to execute the core work,
00:03:48.320 | doesn't really take up much of your schedule.
00:03:50.560 | That's not the bottleneck.
00:03:52.360 | The bottleneck is we take the overhead
00:03:54.220 | for each of these tasks
00:03:55.600 | and we pepper it throughout the day.
00:03:58.020 | And then we pepper this overhead with that overhead
00:04:00.200 | with this overhead.
00:04:01.400 | It doesn't take much before you're never far
00:04:03.300 | from more emails to answer,
00:04:04.800 | more slacks to get back to,
00:04:06.160 | and more meetings to jump from one after another.
00:04:09.520 | So I think the state of overhead saturation
00:04:14.080 | is the primary cause of overload.
00:04:17.400 | And it's what happened to me.
00:04:19.180 | There was different small work commitments
00:04:22.200 | that entered my sphere of responsibility
00:04:25.200 | throughout the spring.
00:04:26.040 | And I said, look, I have these big things I'm working on.
00:04:28.200 | I gotta get this book manuscript in,
00:04:29.480 | I'm working on my courses.
00:04:30.880 | Let's deal with this in May once all that's done.
00:04:33.840 | And any one of these things in isolation is not that big.
00:04:36.560 | Any one of these things,
00:04:37.400 | if you add up the time required in executing the task,
00:04:40.080 | it adds up to a handful of hours.
00:04:42.700 | None of them are outrageous in isolation.
00:04:45.520 | Most of them are important,
00:04:46.920 | but they all got pushed to this period
00:04:49.800 | for after the big things were done.
00:04:52.160 | And even though the amount of execution work
00:04:54.560 | I put onto my schedule was incredibly manageable,
00:04:57.320 | the overhead was not.
00:04:59.160 | And that is why I found myself the other day
00:05:01.080 | spending two hours straight trying to triage
00:05:03.840 | and service these requests and conversations,
00:05:05.880 | and then went away for an hour and came back,
00:05:07.640 | and 16 more messages had shown up in my inbox.
00:05:10.260 | It's why I was finding days where it was meeting,
00:05:11.980 | meeting, meeting, meeting with 30 minutes here,
00:05:13.800 | 20 minutes there,
00:05:14.640 | not enough time to get anything done.
00:05:16.160 | It's why I was saying,
00:05:17.000 | why do I feel so busy when I'm not working on anything?
00:05:19.520 | I'm not writing any chapters.
00:05:20.880 | I'm not getting any drafts of articles done.
00:05:23.560 | It's overhead saturation.
00:05:25.440 | The overhead will kill you way before
00:05:27.820 | the execution gets close.
00:05:30.540 | So anyways, I was thinking about this
00:05:32.920 | when I came across an article in the Wall Street Journal,
00:05:37.400 | which I think emphasizes that my experience
00:05:40.000 | with overhead saturation is not unique,
00:05:41.760 | that this is actually a widespread problem
00:05:44.800 | in the knowledge sector.
00:05:46.240 | So I'm gonna load this article up on the screen here.
00:05:49.640 | It's from May 9th in the Wall Street Journal.
00:05:53.040 | You can watch this if you wanna watch and see the article
00:05:56.160 | as I have it up here on the screen.
00:05:57.720 | This is episode 248.
00:05:59.800 | So if you go to youtube.com/CalNewportMedia
00:06:03.880 | or the deeplife.com,
00:06:04.920 | just look for the video for episode 248.
00:06:07.480 | If you're just listening,
00:06:08.300 | I'll annotate what I'm showing on the screen right now.
00:06:11.080 | All right, so here's this article.
00:06:12.120 | It's by Ray A. Smith from May 9th.
00:06:15.500 | The title is,
00:06:16.840 | "Workers Now Spend Two Full Days a Week
00:06:20.400 | on Emails and in Meetings."
00:06:24.020 | Pretty self-explanatory, so I won't dwell on this,
00:06:25.880 | but let me just give you the specifics here.
00:06:27.440 | This data comes from Microsoft.
00:06:29.280 | Microsoft is analyzing the activity of workers
00:06:31.920 | who are using their business applications,
00:06:34.520 | Outlook, Word, PowerPoint, et cetera.
00:06:37.200 | Because more and more of this software
00:06:38.840 | is hosted in the cloud now,
00:06:40.960 | Microsoft can actually watch
00:06:43.480 | how thousands and thousands of knowledge workers,
00:06:46.160 | what they're actually doing
00:06:47.000 | with their time on their computers.
00:06:48.160 | And they can actually put some pretty wide,
00:06:51.000 | draw from a pretty wide variety of data points
00:06:53.700 | to figure out how are people spending their time.
00:06:56.720 | So they focused in on what they call
00:06:58.720 | the most active users of their apps.
00:07:00.800 | What this means is people who are primarily using
00:07:03.640 | Microsoft apps for their business software needs.
00:07:07.560 | These are the users you wanna focus on for this study.
00:07:10.400 | Because if the users are using other software,
00:07:13.580 | then that's not gonna get picked up in the data.
00:07:15.900 | But if I'm a Microsoft shop,
00:07:17.760 | Microsoft now can really tell how do I spend my time.
00:07:20.640 | So if we look on the people
00:07:21.560 | that actually use mainly Microsoft software,
00:07:24.140 | what they found as hinted by the headline
00:07:26.880 | is that these users spent an average
00:07:29.540 | of 8.8 hours a week reading and writing emails
00:07:33.640 | and 7.5 hours logged into meetings.
00:07:37.580 | So that's gonna be digital meetings
00:07:39.280 | because that's what Microsoft would know about.
00:07:42.320 | That's two full days out of five.
00:07:45.200 | 2/5 of all of your time during the work week
00:07:49.040 | is spent reading emails and being in meetings.
00:07:52.360 | Now, if you could guarantee that you would consolidate
00:07:55.280 | those into two actual days,
00:07:56.940 | I'll do that on Monday and Tuesday.
00:07:58.400 | And to be completely uninterrupted
00:07:59.680 | for Wednesday through Friday,
00:08:00.640 | maybe I would take that deal.
00:08:01.800 | But of course, that is not how that time is distributed
00:08:04.040 | throughout your landscape of work.
00:08:06.320 | That 8.8 hours of reading email
00:08:08.640 | is spread throughout the 40 hours of your week
00:08:11.800 | in such a way that you always have to come back
00:08:14.000 | and there's you're never far
00:08:14.980 | from having more emails to read.
00:08:17.000 | Same thing with that 7.5 hours of meetings.
00:08:19.880 | It's two hours of meetings
00:08:21.000 | spread out over four meetings today,
00:08:23.040 | five hours of meetings this day,
00:08:24.360 | it gets sprinkled and peppered throughout your schedule.
00:08:26.960 | So you can get to that point of overhead saturation.
00:08:29.960 | We have one other data point here I wanna point to.
00:08:34.380 | All right, so it's saying these figures
00:08:35.560 | don't include instant messaging,
00:08:37.280 | time on the phone,
00:08:38.360 | or impromptu conversations with workers.
00:08:40.360 | In all, the average employee spent 77%
00:08:46.160 | of the time they were using Microsoft software
00:08:48.980 | was spent in meetings, email, and chat.
00:08:51.200 | So that's the other data point here
00:08:53.240 | is during the time where they were using Microsoft software,
00:08:56.300 | the majority of that time was talking about work.
00:08:58.680 | Only 43% of their time they spent using that software
00:09:01.400 | was for quote unquote, creating things.
00:09:05.520 | There's a bit of analysis here.
00:09:07.880 | This is subjective description, which I think is apt.
00:09:10.980 | Both workers and bosses complain
00:09:14.840 | that digital overload is hurting innovation and productivity
00:09:19.160 | a sentiment echoed in numerous workplace studies.
00:09:21.840 | In a separate Microsoft survey of 31,000 people worldwide,
00:09:26.840 | nearly two out of three said that they struggled
00:09:30.160 | to find time and energy to do their actual job.
00:09:36.000 | So they struggled to find time and energy to do their job.
00:09:41.000 | Those people were more than three times as likely as others
00:09:44.360 | to say innovation and strategic thinking were a challenge.
00:09:48.320 | We have a quote here from the leader of the research team.
00:09:52.400 | "People feel quite overwhelmed,
00:09:54.240 | a sense of feeling like they have two jobs,
00:09:56.140 | the jobs they were hired to do,
00:09:57.740 | but then they have this other job of communicating,
00:09:59.560 | coordinating, and collaborating."
00:10:01.440 | Folks, this is exactly what I've been talking about
00:10:03.160 | on the show for years.
00:10:05.800 | This is exactly what I just talked about
00:10:07.880 | at the opening of today's deep dive.
00:10:11.660 | It is the overhead of coordinating and collaborating work
00:10:15.040 | that is causing all of these problems with overload
00:10:17.820 | and the subsequent symptoms of burnout
00:10:19.640 | that we are realizing have become epidemic
00:10:23.580 | in modern knowledge work.
00:10:26.480 | And it is very important that we recognize it.
00:10:28.400 | It's overhead, not the work itself.
00:10:31.040 | It's the meeting about the report,
00:10:32.740 | not the writing the report
00:10:34.680 | that's really causing problems.
00:10:38.080 | Now, once we understand this issue,
00:10:39.840 | I think it clarifies potential solutions.
00:10:43.500 | One of the big discussions right now, of course,
00:10:46.220 | is around artificial intelligence.
00:10:48.880 | We've talked about this on the show before.
00:10:51.300 | People are thinking, well, wait a second,
00:10:53.320 | maybe what we need to help work become more productive
00:10:57.600 | is artificial intelligence agents,
00:11:00.880 | artificial intelligence powered agents
00:11:03.020 | that can help us do our work,
00:11:05.800 | that can help gather sources
00:11:07.200 | or write the rough draft of the article
00:11:09.080 | that we need to write
00:11:10.520 | or gather the information I need
00:11:12.660 | to put together this spreadsheet.
00:11:13.900 | And this is gonna really boost productivity.
00:11:15.640 | And my point is, let's say,
00:11:16.600 | even if that technology can do all of that,
00:11:18.540 | and that's a whole separate if,
00:11:20.600 | can it really do that?
00:11:21.440 | Let's put that aside for now.
00:11:23.200 | It is not gonna get to the core of the problem
00:11:25.320 | that is making people feel overloaded,
00:11:27.120 | which is the overhead around these tasks.
00:11:29.600 | The needing to go back and forth
00:11:31.100 | on these nuanced, subtle, subjective, interpersonal issues
00:11:34.340 | about what about this?
00:11:35.460 | Do you know about this?
00:11:36.660 | When should we meet about this?
00:11:38.260 | Let me get your thoughts on this.
00:11:39.600 | Let me make sure everyone feels heard.
00:11:41.480 | This sense of overload is coming from this overhead,
00:11:43.840 | and that's not something we can solve
00:11:45.220 | by just making our software tools more efficient.
00:11:47.480 | It's not something we can solve
00:11:48.600 | by having an artificial intelligence agent
00:11:50.840 | gather data from us.
00:11:52.040 | It's not something we can solve
00:11:53.000 | by making the interface for communication faster,
00:11:55.840 | that my email is going to auto-guess
00:11:57.620 | what words I wanna type.
00:11:59.000 | All of that might help a little bit at the margins,
00:12:01.160 | but if we wanna really get rid of overload,
00:12:03.320 | we have to start caring about,
00:12:06.860 | A, how we collaborate and coordinate work.
00:12:10.160 | How do we take that activity of collaboration
00:12:13.880 | and coordination that surrounds the work
00:12:15.680 | and make its footprint much smaller and consolidated?
00:12:19.160 | How do we get rid of the ability
00:12:20.480 | of even a relatively small obligation
00:12:22.920 | to create 30 or 40 back and forth emails in four meetings?
00:12:27.600 | I believe that to be critical.
00:12:29.600 | And B, we gotta manage workload.
00:12:31.940 | We have to say it's not just how many hours
00:12:35.480 | is this thing gonna take,
00:12:36.820 | but also what's the overhead gonna be.
00:12:40.560 | A lot of overhead is unavoidable,
00:12:42.320 | so the secret is do less things at a time.
00:12:44.660 | I only have two things on my plate at a time.
00:12:47.640 | So now the overhead does not destroy my schedule,
00:12:49.720 | so I can actually execute pretty efficiently.
00:12:51.800 | And then those things are done,
00:12:52.700 | and I can do two other things,
00:12:54.120 | and the overhead is small,
00:12:55.380 | so I can execute that efficiently,
00:12:56.760 | and I get it done faster.
00:12:57.760 | And you know what?
00:12:58.600 | Those four things got done much faster
00:13:00.440 | than if you had put all four things
00:13:01.600 | on my plate at the same time.
00:13:04.280 | Workload management has to be a critical part
00:13:06.840 | of this solution.
00:13:09.440 | And that's something that's gonna require systems,
00:13:11.120 | that's gonna require organizational buy-in.
00:13:12.720 | So I think this is where our focus should be,
00:13:14.380 | not how do we do our work faster,
00:13:16.200 | but instead, how do we make coordination and collaboration
00:13:20.120 | that surrounds tasks have less
00:13:21.880 | of a spread out footprint on our schedule?
00:13:23.340 | And B, how can we have smarter workload management systems
00:13:26.520 | that keep less on your plate at the same time?
00:13:28.880 | This is not about doing less work.
00:13:30.760 | This is not a dichotomy between workers and management
00:13:34.120 | where they both have their own interests.
00:13:35.560 | And it's in the management's interest
00:13:37.140 | for us to have more on our plate,
00:13:38.720 | and in our interest to have less.
00:13:39.840 | No, it's in everyone's interest for us to hold things back
00:13:43.240 | and only give people one thing to do at a time
00:13:45.120 | or two things to do at a time,
00:13:45.960 | 'cause it gets done faster.
00:13:47.280 | And the total amount of work produced per year
00:13:48.920 | is gonna be higher,
00:13:50.460 | but it just requires a system,
00:13:51.640 | and that's annoying, and that's hard,
00:13:53.800 | and we don't like change.
00:13:55.940 | So I think overload is a real issue.
00:13:57.780 | It's caused by overhead.
00:14:00.600 | Overhead is where we have to focus our energy
00:14:02.360 | when it comes to trying to find solutions.
00:14:05.060 | So I think that Wall Street Journal article makes clear,
00:14:08.160 | this is a widespread problem.
00:14:09.480 | It's time to get more serious about thinking
00:14:11.000 | about how to get rid of it.
00:14:13.200 | - Did you talk about overhead saturation
00:14:16.560 | in a world without email, that term?
00:14:18.640 | - No, no.
00:14:21.120 | I mean, I definitely talked about overhead being a problem,
00:14:24.280 | and the back and forth being a problem,
00:14:26.940 | and a world without email gets into the psychology
00:14:28.940 | and neuroscience about why all that context shifting
00:14:30.700 | is really bad, but I didn't use that term.
00:14:33.340 | In my new book, "In Slow Productivity,"
00:14:35.540 | which is coming out next year, I do talk about this.
00:14:38.420 | And actually, the terminology I use in that book
00:14:40.260 | is the overhead tax.
00:14:42.660 | Every obligation brings with it an overhead tax.
00:14:46.140 | And when the amount of that taxes get to a certain point,
00:14:49.580 | you get the saturation,
00:14:51.060 | I sometimes also call it an overhead spiral,
00:14:53.200 | where now suddenly you're spending so much time
00:14:56.420 | in the overhead of your work
00:14:57.780 | that you can't actually get the work done,
00:14:59.740 | which means more work piles up,
00:15:01.380 | which means more overhead enters the scene,
00:15:04.020 | and it spirals out of control.
00:15:06.260 | And I think this happened,
00:15:07.200 | I talk about this more in the book,
00:15:08.280 | so I won't get, I can talk about it now,
00:15:10.540 | 'cause it'll be a year 'til that book comes out,
00:15:11.860 | but basically, a really short summary
00:15:13.820 | of the argument I made there is,
00:15:15.900 | we tend to keep our workloads right at the precipice
00:15:19.020 | of that spiral out of control.
00:15:21.060 | So we say yes and yes and yes
00:15:23.060 | until we're so worried about things spiraling out of control
00:15:25.060 | that we finally have cover to say no.
00:15:27.680 | And what happened,
00:15:28.520 | this was exposed by the coronavirus pandemic,
00:15:31.820 | because for a lot of knowledge workers,
00:15:34.180 | when they quickly shifted remote,
00:15:35.740 | it's not like it doubled their workload,
00:15:38.060 | but it added a non-trivial amount of new work unexpectedly.
00:15:41.900 | And since everyone was right on the edge,
00:15:44.120 | it pushed a lot of people right over that border,
00:15:46.500 | and that's why we had that phenomenon
00:15:48.000 | during that first year, year and a half of the pandemic,
00:15:50.600 | where we had knowledge workers at home
00:15:52.280 | who were doing Zoom meetings eight hours a day,
00:15:54.560 | who were emailing until late at night,
00:15:56.620 | and who were feeling like
00:15:57.620 | they couldn't actually get much work done.
00:15:59.340 | It's because we pushed the whole population
00:16:01.580 | over that point where you get fully saturated by overhead.
00:16:05.100 | It's just really not a good place to be.
00:16:06.700 | And managers should really worry about this.
00:16:08.260 | I mean, it's a terrible way to actually deploy your resources
00:16:12.020 | if you have workers who are saturated with overhead.
00:16:14.640 | I think that's important because,
00:16:16.980 | it's nice to have a dynamic
00:16:19.220 | where we can tweet indignantly about bad people,
00:16:22.020 | but the solution here is more complicated,
00:16:23.980 | and the issue is more subtle.
00:16:25.500 | It's not just mustache twirlers saying,
00:16:27.380 | "If I could just get more overhead on Jesse's plate,
00:16:30.100 | my plan to kidnap the queen's daughter and get a ransom
00:16:33.880 | is gonna come to fruition."
00:16:35.060 | It's not necessarily a mustache-twisting manager.
00:16:37.420 | It's a haphazard work system.
00:16:40.900 | In the absence of other ways to keep track
00:16:43.100 | of how much work are you doing,
00:16:44.900 | to have ways to hold on to work
00:16:46.500 | that's not just on a person's plate,
00:16:48.060 | but in a centralized way,
00:16:49.100 | in the absence of these smarter systems,
00:16:51.280 | we're just gonna push ourselves till we get worried.
00:16:53.860 | And so we're gonna push ourselves way past the tipping point
00:16:56.700 | of what's the right trade-off between overhead
00:16:59.540 | and actually getting things done.
00:17:01.180 | So we'll see.
00:17:03.180 | Too bad books take so long to come out.
00:17:06.300 | Like I'm almost done with this book.
00:17:08.060 | Next month, we're gonna be,
00:17:09.540 | it's called Transmittal or Transmission.
00:17:12.700 | It's where you pass on the manuscript officially
00:17:15.100 | from editorial to the production teams.
00:17:17.420 | And this is where, and then it's a year.
00:17:20.940 | - A lot of overhead in publishing a book.
00:17:23.000 | - It really is.
00:17:23.840 | It really is, guys.
00:17:26.460 | But don't worry, you'll hear plenty about that next year.
00:17:28.860 | We're working on covers now.
00:17:30.180 | That's exciting.
00:17:31.020 | All this stuff has to happen so early.
00:17:32.180 | Like you need a cover and advertising copy
00:17:35.280 | and marketing strategy really far in advance
00:17:37.820 | because it starts so early.
00:17:40.260 | Like if we're gonna release next February or March,
00:17:43.420 | the meetings, the sale of the books to bookstores
00:17:47.620 | that are gonna come out in that time happens pretty soon.
00:17:50.620 | That'll happen later in the summer,
00:17:52.220 | which means right now,
00:17:53.780 | we have to be getting our ducks in the row
00:17:55.900 | so that the sales team can be,
00:17:57.500 | have everything they need to sell this book late summer
00:18:01.280 | for bookstores thinking about
00:18:02.560 | what are we gonna place in early 2024.
00:18:05.660 | So the book kind of has to be done before then.