Getting Paid To Write (An Author Reveals The Roadmap!)

00:00:00.000 | Um, all right.

00:00:01.380 | So I got a question from me.

00:00:02.540 | Hmm.

00:00:03.060 | As long as I have you, uh, in the studio from

00:00:05.760 | me on behalf of my listeners.

00:00:07.520 | Uh, so you've spent most of your career as a

00:00:09.420 | journalist and freelance journalist, writer of

00:00:12.780 | books, you're on, this is four or five, five,

00:00:15.940 | five, okay.

00:00:17.180 | Five books.

00:00:18.180 | Um, you've got cool stories, right?

00:00:20.760 | I mean, you reported from talk about earlier,

00:00:22.740 | you were stationed in Argentina earlier in

00:00:24.340 | your career, you did a book about Jewish delis

00:00:27.500 | where you were traveling the seaboard,

00:00:29.540 | trying out different delis for revenge of

00:00:31.700 | analog, you went to all these cool places.

00:00:33.980 | It was first person journalistic.

00:00:35.500 | A lot of the article.

00:00:36.500 | This is, I think, romantic to a certain

00:00:39.560 | subset of my listeners.

00:00:42.060 | The idea, the autonomy and the adventure of

00:00:46.080 | being a writer, traveling, going to interesting

00:00:48.580 | places, being able to write books about it,

00:00:50.280 | then to be able to like travel and like

00:00:51.500 | you're seeing me now because you're traveling,

00:00:52.900 | talking about the book, right?

00:00:53.900 | This is romantic.

00:00:54.700 | Um, and we know that this is romantic.

00:00:57.420 | It's well, yeah.

00:00:59.460 | We've been talking about the sex spurts and

00:01:02.220 | now we're going to talk about the romance of

00:01:03.660 | David and I being in the same room.

00:01:04.660 | Um, so what I'm wondering here is like,

00:01:07.460 | let's, uh, let's say two answers.

00:01:11.340 | What's the reality checks?

00:01:13.560 | Like what's the elements that, okay, it's

00:01:14.920 | not as romantic as you think, but so that

00:01:16.420 | we're not too dour, maybe give us a taste

00:01:18.860 | of what actually is as cool as you might

00:01:20.940 | think about this sort of full-time

00:01:23.940 | autonomous writer's lifestyle.

00:01:25.420 | Yeah.

00:01:26.300 | So the, the, the negative side, cause

00:01:28.620 | you know, I get this a lot.

00:01:29.420 | I'm, I'm a mentor at my old university.

00:01:31.300 | So I have all these students and they

00:01:32.660 | don't have a writing program or journalism.

00:01:34.580 | So they send them to me, right.

00:01:35.940 | The wayward souls.

00:01:37.060 | Um, it's look, it's, it's, it's a difficult

00:01:41.100 | way to make a consistent living, uh,

00:01:44.740 | financially speaking.

00:01:46.020 | Um, you know, the financial rewards are

00:01:48.540 | not steady and consistent.

00:01:51.500 | I'm someone who's successful at it

00:01:52.900 | relatively speaking.

00:01:54.220 | Um, but you know, it took me a

00:01:55.980 | while to get where I am.

00:01:57.180 | And that happened as the sort of industry,

00:02:00.140 | especially the magazine and newspaper

00:02:01.580 | industry has, has imploded as this sort

00:02:04.100 | of ad sales.

00:02:04.620 | It's the reality now you really need is

00:02:07.860 | books and speaking, what's going to be the.

00:02:10.180 | The primary income source is the, is the

00:02:12.860 | freelance writing fees small enough now,

00:02:14.940 | if you're going to make a go at this, you

00:02:16.980 | can't imagine it's just going to be from

00:02:18.380 | the magazine piece of what's the...

00:02:19.540 | No, yeah, that, that, those days are done.

00:02:21.220 | Yeah.

00:02:21.420 | Um, I think there are people who, who

00:02:22.980 | still manage to eat that out, but they're

00:02:25.460 | doing other things.

00:02:26.420 | Um, books are relatively

00:02:28.020 | consistent and steady.

00:02:29.140 | Yeah.

00:02:29.340 | Um, and the speaking, you know, relates

00:02:32.100 | to the success of the books or, or the

00:02:33.980 | topics of them.

00:02:34.580 | And that's always, that's always sort of

00:02:36.900 | good.

00:02:37.180 | Um, so that's, that's the downside.

00:02:39.420 | And then there's of course, all the

00:02:40.580 | downsides of being a writer, um, the

00:02:43.060 | rollercoaster of emotions and, you know,

00:02:45.460 | self-hatred and, you know, my book came out

00:02:47.460 | today and last night was amazing.

00:02:48.780 | We did a great event.

00:02:49.660 | You, you, the, the, the, the, the, the

00:02:52.580 | sun God of Cal Newportness just brought

00:02:55.260 | all these wonderful people from DC who were

00:02:57.300 | friends of yours, fans of yours, listeners

00:02:59.300 | of yours.

00:02:59.660 | Um.

00:03:00.180 | Hometown, hometown crowd.

00:03:01.100 | Hometown crowd.

00:03:01.980 | Yeah.

00:03:02.140 | You, you brought it, you brought it.

00:03:03.980 | And, uh, and it was a wonderful way to kick

00:03:05.940 | off this book tour.

00:03:06.620 | And then it was today, it was like, oh,

00:03:08.260 | someone isn't responding to my email about

00:03:11.180 | an op-ed and wah, like, you know, I'm like,

00:03:13.540 | well, maybe I'll just click on the Amazon.

00:03:15.900 | It's like, you don't click on the Amazon

00:03:17.380 | ranking on your first day.

00:03:18.460 | I'm like, well, I.

00:03:19.100 | You can't.

00:03:19.340 | My book's 124,000.

00:03:21.180 | So that's, oh no, forget it.

00:03:23.100 | Um.

00:03:24.060 | But it was 126,000.

00:03:25.580 | So I think that's what's important.

00:03:26.660 | It's on the up and up.

00:03:27.660 | Yeah.

00:03:28.060 | It's a mover.

00:03:28.620 | It's on the up and up.

00:03:29.020 | It's a mover and shaker.

00:03:30.260 | So that's.

00:03:30.980 | You can, you can get infinitely discerning by

00:03:32.860 | the way that with your Amazon, like, well,

00:03:34.860 | it moving in shakers in this category on

00:03:37.300 | Tuesdays was actually in the top 1000.

00:03:39.500 | Yeah.

00:03:39.620 | There you go.

00:03:39.900 | There's always a one, uh, a number one thing.

00:03:41.900 | Right.

00:03:42.020 | But up and down, up and down.

00:03:43.100 | Yeah.

00:03:43.380 | But I think, you know, the, the, the thing

00:03:45.620 | that I always tell people is like, when you,

00:03:49.100 | if you're able to do it in a way that you're

00:03:51.020 | able to support yourself and like, I'm not

00:03:52.500 | advocating that, like you should do it and

00:03:53.860 | lose all your money.

00:03:54.460 | That's ridiculous.

00:03:55.340 | But like you gain the ultimate freedom and access.

00:03:59.940 | You've never had a normal job.

00:04:01.860 | Is that right?

00:04:02.300 | I've never had a normal job.

00:04:03.020 | You've never gone into an office

00:04:04.420 | building on a regular basis.

00:04:05.620 | I had one job when I was in my first

00:04:08.420 | summer of university.

00:04:09.540 | Um, that was a regular job.

00:04:11.740 | I got a job at a office that made newsletters

00:04:16.580 | for dentists in Toronto.

00:04:19.020 | So you've had two different dream careers.

00:04:21.300 | Yeah.

00:04:21.740 | Is what you're saying.

00:04:22.220 | My job, I went the first day.

00:04:23.660 | I'm like, okay, like I want to be a journalist.

00:04:25.140 | I'm going to write these stories about dentists.

00:04:26.660 | You're like, nope, you're going to go in this room.

00:04:28.660 | Here's a stack of the newsletters.

00:04:30.820 | Here's a printout of like, um, the addresses.

00:04:35.340 | You're going to tape the address onto the

00:04:37.660 | newsletter here, where it says, or the name

00:04:39.780 | of the dentist, Dr.

00:04:41.020 | Calvin Newport, you know, 606, whatever way.

00:04:43.980 | Um, you're going to place this on this

00:04:45.860 | Canon image runner copier, and you're going

00:04:48.220 | to make 200 copies of that one.

00:04:49.260 | And you're gonna make 300 copies of that one.

00:04:50.540 | And you can do this all day, eight hours a day,

00:04:53.020 | seven days a week in this windowless room

00:04:54.820 | until the day when you notice smoke coming

00:04:58.940 | from the Cam and Gin runner.

00:05:00.180 | Cause you've been running it so hot and so

00:05:02.900 | much, you've been slamming those copies

00:05:04.940 | that it catches on fire.

00:05:07.420 | And the guy from Canon comes in.

00:05:09.420 | He's like, I have never seen anything like

00:05:10.940 | this.

00:05:11.060 | And then you're moved to data entry.

00:05:12.780 | Uh, by the way, I love your dream

00:05:14.860 | denied in this story is writing

00:05:17.140 | articles about dentists.

00:05:18.300 | I would probably still be at that company.

00:05:20.460 | This is what was taken from you.

00:05:22.180 | So anyway, that was, yeah.

00:05:23.740 | Yes.

00:05:24.100 | So I've never had that.

00:05:25.060 | Right.

00:05:25.300 | So, so what have I gotten out of, out of my

00:05:28.540 | career when, you know, other friends of mine

00:05:31.380 | have had more steady jobs or even steadier

00:05:34.580 | careers in journalism.

00:05:35.460 | Like my friend, Mike came out to the bar last

00:05:36.980 | night, he works for Reuters.

00:05:38.020 | He's like a beat reporter on defense.

00:05:40.540 | Right.

00:05:40.860 | And he's like, I, he was like, you know, I

00:05:42.700 | loved, I would love to do what you do.

00:05:44.820 | It's I have the freedom to go anywhere and

00:05:46.820 | do what I want.

00:05:47.420 | And as long as someone is willing to let me

00:05:50.300 | go there and say, yeah, you can come to my

00:05:52.220 | restaurant, interview me.

00:05:53.260 | Yeah.

00:05:53.540 | You can come to the, the record pressing plant

00:05:56.500 | in Nashville and walk around with us.

00:05:57.860 | Yeah.

00:05:58.100 | You know, you can, you can come to Jack

00:05:59.620 | White's recording studio and, and talk to

00:06:01.740 | his people and, and see how he does all that

00:06:03.700 | stuff.

00:06:04.100 | Um, then I'm good to go and no one's telling

00:06:07.780 | me what to do.

00:06:08.540 | I can ask whatever questions I want.

00:06:10.460 | I get to have conversations with anyone I

00:06:13.100 | want anywhere in the world, um, uh, without

00:06:16.580 | limitations on them.

00:06:17.540 | So.

00:06:18.660 | So, so what's the game plan then if let's say.

00:06:20.980 | Game plan.

00:06:22.620 | Undergraduate.

00:06:23.300 | Yeah.

00:06:23.460 | I'm invite, I do advice here.

00:06:24.580 | We get specific.

00:06:25.300 | Let's say you're an, a college student and

00:06:28.260 | the goal is I want to write nonfiction books

00:06:31.780 | that'll allow me to go to interesting places

00:06:33.940 | and report an interesting thing.

00:06:34.900 | So, so like the books you write.

00:06:36.060 | Um, how do you maximize the chance that

00:06:38.540 | you're like, okay, I want to give you a game

00:06:39.860 | plan, no guarantees, but let me build

00:06:42.900 | from pull from David, my David Sacks wisdom.

00:06:45.260 | And like, this is what you should, this is

00:06:47.060 | the steps.

00:06:47.540 | Here's what you should focus on.

00:06:48.420 | What are you, what are you telling that

00:06:49.340 | student?

00:06:49.660 | This is what I tell, um, the students that I

00:06:52.220 | mentor.

00:06:52.620 | So the same thing, right.

00:06:53.660 | Is, uh, there's many different paths to it.

00:06:55.860 | So there's no one way.

00:06:56.900 | Um, don't go to journalism school, uh, because

00:07:00.740 | you're just going to spend a lot of money

00:07:02.420 | sort of doing stuff that you can learn as a

00:07:04.980 | trade, um, right.

00:07:07.140 | Wherever and however you can.

00:07:09.060 | So if you can get an internship or you can

00:07:12.100 | sell stories to your local hometown paper or

00:07:16.500 | website or, you know, some other thing, do it.

00:07:20.540 | Right.

00:07:20.820 | The more you write, start a blog, start a

00:07:24.100 | sub stack thing.

00:07:25.820 | Um, right, right, right.

00:07:27.820 | Because first you're going to just have to

00:07:29.940 | learn how to do that and learn how to pitch

00:07:32.700 | your ideas to people, which is the most

00:07:34.060 | important part.

00:07:34.740 | And then you're going to have to figure out

00:07:37.260 | what you're actually interested in writing

00:07:39.340 | about and what you're good at.

00:07:40.580 | Like you're going to have to develop some sort

00:07:42.540 | of niche or expertise.

00:07:44.660 | And that doesn't mean you have to spend like

00:07:45.820 | 20 years studying, you know, Etruscan ruins.

00:07:48.820 | Um, but you're going to have to develop a

00:07:51.620 | knowledge around a certain area so that you

00:07:54.300 | see an idea that's big enough for a book when

00:07:57.060 | it comes to it.

00:07:57.540 | Right.

00:07:57.860 | So when you're, when you're selling that book,

00:07:59.300 | if you can point to your journalism profile,

00:08:02.140 | and even if it's a lot of small things, it may

00:08:03.780 | be a bigger thing here and there.

00:08:05.020 | If there's a clear thread through it, you

00:08:08.260 | know, I'm writing about outdoor adventure

00:08:10.460 | sports a lot.

00:08:11.180 | Like I'm, I'm in these places.

00:08:12.620 | Then when you pitch the book on that, like,

00:08:14.700 | okay, this makes sense.

00:08:15.460 | This tracks.

00:08:16.140 | It makes sense that this person is, but you

00:08:18.140 | have to give them that thread.

00:08:20.620 | Why does it make sense that this person is

00:08:24.100 | writing this book?

00:08:24.900 | Exactly.

00:08:25.500 | Yeah.

00:08:25.940 | And sometimes, you know, you have to convince

00:08:28.580 | them, right?

00:08:29.060 | Like I, my first book was about, um, it's

00:08:31.260 | called Save the Deli and it was about, you

00:08:33.140 | know, why were Jewish deli disappearing and

00:08:35.300 | why, why did that matter?

00:08:37.100 | And what were the cultural forces?

00:08:38.820 | I mean, I, I came up with the idea when I was

00:08:41.300 | in university and it was a paper I wrote for a

00:08:43.940 | class.

00:08:44.660 | Um, and when I pitched it, I was, I don't

00:08:46.820 | know, 25, 26 years old.

00:08:48.820 | And it was like, well, why is this guy doing

00:08:51.780 | it?

00:08:51.900 | Well, I'm like, look, I I'm interested in food.

00:08:53.700 | Here's a few things I've written, but it was

00:08:54.940 | like, okay, well, he understands this idea

00:08:57.020 | enough.

00:08:57.420 | We can see in his writing that he knows how

00:08:59.220 | to write this, or we're going to take a chance

00:09:00.540 | on it.

00:09:00.740 | Um, it actually gets harder as you get more

00:09:03.580 | successful because you have a track record

00:09:06.260 | and they're like, oh, Cal Newport, you're the

00:09:08.580 | digital minimalism, digital work guy.

00:09:10.660 | What do you mean you want to write a book

00:09:12.060 | about like 19th century ballet?

00:09:13.860 | Look, man, like that's, yeah, we'll give you

00:09:16.100 | a flyer or whatever, but, um, you know, this

00:09:18.900 | is the goods like you're, you're, this is the

00:09:20.580 | industry, right?

00:09:21.780 | Yeah.

00:09:22.100 | No, it's hard.

00:09:22.860 | I mean, I remember when Ryan Holiday years ago,

00:09:26.540 | I first heard that he was going to write a book

00:09:28.980 | on stoicism.

00:09:29.780 | I was like, come on, why are you writing a book

00:09:32.100 | on stoicism?

00:09:32.660 | Your last book was about marketing.

00:09:34.140 | You're in the marketing world.

00:09:35.260 | You did this growth hacking ebook, like that

00:09:37.580 | is your world.

00:09:38.660 | This is a crazy idea.

00:09:40.100 | And this is why I'm terrible at giving advice

00:09:42.100 | to people, but he had a hard time.

00:09:43.580 | I asked about that on the show.

00:09:44.540 | Exactly.

00:09:44.900 | What you're talking about is publishers like,

00:09:46.020 | I guess we'll publish this.

00:09:47.340 | We're not going to pay you much for it.

00:09:48.860 | Right.

00:09:49.100 | Kind of annoyed about it because we want to get

00:09:51.740 | back to what you're doing.

00:09:53.300 | Quantity for.

00:09:54.140 | Yeah.

00:09:54.340 | But I think, and that's the thing about the

00:09:55.660 | freelance writer, like just as soon as you get

00:09:57.980 | that sort of success around it, people like,

00:09:59.420 | oh, good.

00:09:59.900 | You're the analog guy.

00:10:00.820 | I'm like, yeah, but I'm going to throw you a

00:10:03.500 | curve ball now.

00:10:04.260 | Cause like, I don't want to be put in some sort

00:10:06.300 | of hole where I'm writing the same book over

00:10:09.140 | and over and over and over and over again.

00:10:10.940 | Yeah.

00:10:11.260 | Um, and, and you see that and there's people

00:10:14.140 | who are successful at kind of weaving through

00:10:16.460 | that, like, you know, Rich Cohen.

00:10:17.620 | Uh, name sounds familiar.

00:10:19.620 | Rich Cohen's written many books.

00:10:21.300 | Um, he's also written for vanity fair whenever,

00:10:23.260 | and he's always just like something that

00:10:24.820 | interests him and something different.

00:10:25.940 | And he's like, some stuff sells more and some

00:10:28.100 | stuff sells less.

00:10:28.780 | He's like, but I'm following the thing that I

00:10:30.340 | want to write about.

00:10:30.980 | And that's the, that's, that has to be the

00:10:33.580 | definition of success because the commercial

00:10:36.100 | success is so out of your control.

00:10:37.860 | It's very hard.

00:10:39.340 | It's very hard.

00:10:40.540 | And then try to like consistently have high

00:10:42.460 | commercial success.

00:10:43.060 | That's like a whole different, that's a whole

00:10:44.900 | different type of career.

00:10:45.820 | I'm like half in that world and it's a, it's a

00:10:48.580 | lot of, it's a lot of hard work, but it's a lot

00:10:51.620 | of managing, uh, it reminds me of film, film

00:10:55.100 | directing.

00:10:55.660 | Yeah.

00:10:55.860 | It's like a kind of a complicated thing for

00:10:57.500 | the film director.

00:10:58.140 | So, you know, like this movie was very

00:10:59.380 | successful and having to navigate the projects.

00:11:02.180 | And if this movie doesn't do well, I have one

00:11:03.900 | more I can do to try to prove it.

00:11:06.020 | It's a complicated and it's not a straight

00:11:08.300 | linear thing.

00:11:09.020 | Right.

00:11:09.420 | And I think the expectation that it should be

00:11:12.380 | that success is this straight linear thing of

00:11:15.060 | like, this thing is going to do this.

00:11:16.540 | And then the next one's going to do better.

00:11:17.700 | And the next one's going to do better.

00:11:18.820 | It doesn't work like that.

00:11:20.420 | And so, you know, there is an element of like

00:11:23.260 | artistry to it.

00:11:24.500 | And I don't mean we're artists, but it is this

00:11:26.980 | type of thing where it's, where it's like at the

00:11:29.180 | end of the day, the, the goal, the goal is not

00:11:32.900 | to lose money.

00:11:33.460 | You still want to make enough money to like

00:11:35.060 | afford the Subaru and its gas.

00:11:37.260 | Um, uh, but you know, you, you, you don't want

00:11:42.980 | to give up that independence cause that's the

00:11:44.580 | thing that got you into it in the first place.

00:11:46.300 | Yeah.

00:11:46.620 | Um, so it's like the nonfiction axiom, I say

00:11:49.620 | nonfiction, like selling seven figure copies of

00:11:53.740 | a book.

00:11:54.100 | It's like hitting a major league fastball.

00:11:55.740 | It's like one of the most difficult things to

00:11:57.700 | do and no one can do it all the time.

00:12:00.580 | Yeah.

00:12:00.860 | There is a handful of writers out there, you

00:12:04.260 | know, nonfiction like Malcolm Gladwell, Michael

00:12:07.420 | Lewis, but you know, they're not moving seven

00:12:10.580 | figures.

00:12:10.940 | Okay.

00:12:11.260 | Then no.

00:12:11.700 | Yeah.

00:12:11.980 | How about it's hard.

00:12:12.820 | Well, but then some people do it's this, what's

00:12:14.700 | so hard?

00:12:15.060 | Like it's, it's very feast or family.

00:12:16.980 | Like a James Clear will move 4 million copies.

00:12:18.860 | See, I don't even know who that is.

00:12:20.140 | Atomic habits.

00:12:21.180 | Okay.

00:12:22.060 | Yeah.

00:12:22.260 | Right.

00:12:22.460 | Yeah.

00:12:22.540 | Mark Manson, 18 million copies.

00:12:24.340 | The business book.

00:12:25.020 | Yeah.

00:12:25.300 | But like no one can consistently.

00:12:26.780 | Celebrities don't count.

00:12:27.580 | Yeah.

00:12:27.980 | Uh, that's right.

00:12:29.060 | But celebrities don't consistently write books.

00:12:30.820 | So like it's very, in fiction, you can do it.

00:12:32.700 | You can be Grisham in the nineties.

00:12:34.060 | Grisham in the nineties.

00:12:34.740 | And you're going to move a lot, but he wasn't.

00:12:36.980 | Yeah, I guess he was moving seven figures

00:12:38.860 | pretty consistently.

00:12:39.740 | Uh, units.

00:12:42.260 | Units.

00:12:42.980 | Units.

00:12:43.620 | Units.

00:12:44.100 | SKUs.

00:12:44.740 | SKUs.

00:12:44.980 | SKUs of SKUs.

00:12:46.260 | SKUs of Southern lawyers.

00:12:48.060 | Yeah.

00:12:48.260 | So you can go crazy.

00:12:49.260 | You can go crazy chasing that.

00:12:50.500 | Like.

00:12:50.740 | But it's out of your control, right?

00:12:53.300 | I don't think Stephen King's like thinks like that.

00:12:55.340 | Yeah.

00:12:55.940 | And I'm sure his books are up and down.

00:12:57.420 | I mean, they also a lot of copies, but.

00:12:58.900 | Yeah.

00:12:59.100 | I think some kill it and some.

00:13:00.700 | Sedaris.

00:13:01.300 | Sedaris.

00:13:01.860 | Sedaris probably the same way.

00:13:02.740 | No, I think Sedaris just gets out there,

00:13:04.660 | tell some crazy stories about his family

00:13:06.700 | and then goes on tour and, you know, charges

00:13:08.780 | like 50 bucks a ticket to go see him.

00:13:10.900 | And.

00:13:11.300 | Well, that's why he doesn't care about like.

00:13:12.740 | The books have to do well and they do well.

00:13:14.780 | Yeah.

00:13:15.060 | But like he loves touring and he makes a lot of money.

00:13:16.820 | Yeah.

00:13:16.900 | And what does he have to spend his money on,

00:13:17.900 | but like a new stick to pick up garbage

00:13:19.620 | with in England?

00:13:20.260 | Like it's.

00:13:20.860 | I mean, don't they have, doesn't him and Hugh

00:13:22.180 | have like a.

00:13:22.620 | They have many.

00:13:23.140 | French countryside house and an English house.

00:13:25.980 | We could geek out on Sedaris all day here.

00:13:28.020 | Yeah.

00:13:28.420 | Well, I've been trying to get them on the show.

00:13:29.940 | I can't imagine what, no I'm joking.

00:13:31.380 | It's like, huh.

00:13:33.340 | Productivity, digital culture.

00:13:35.660 | This is right in my wheelhouse.

00:13:36.700 | I'm sure he, he does write about how he works.

00:13:39.380 | And, uh, he has a very specific way about it.

00:13:42.140 | Yeah.

00:13:42.500 | Yeah.

00:13:42.900 | Be great.

00:13:43.300 | Yeah.

00:13:43.660 | But you wouldn't get him.

00:13:44.380 | All right.

00:13:44.900 | So that's good advice.

00:13:45.460 | So, um, the summarize then I always paraphrase.

00:13:48.580 | So you're, so you're saying, uh, the book

00:13:50.740 | writing, it's hard, financially hard, but you

00:13:52.340 | can make a living at it.

00:13:54.580 | It has its pluses and minuses.

00:13:55.780 | If you want to get into it, right,

00:13:57.220 | journalistically, right.

00:13:59.060 | Articles anywhere you can develop a niche.

00:14:03.700 | Then that's super tight.

00:14:06.340 | But I will say the other thing, there's

00:14:08.700 | the other path to it too.

00:14:09.820 | Yes.

00:14:10.180 | Go live your life, go have another career

00:14:12.300 | and then write on the side, right.

00:14:15.540 | For, you know, a magazine for a hobby you

00:14:17.820 | have or a blog or something like that.

00:14:20.020 | And then later on, when you feel like you

00:14:22.860 | have an experience or something to tell,

00:14:25.580 | you're going to have that lived experience.

00:14:27.100 | That's that is it.

00:14:28.060 | So it's not just writers who get to do that.

00:14:30.540 | Yeah, that's true.

00:14:31.340 | Yeah.

00:14:31.580 | Lives.

00:14:31.820 | And if you want to write pragmatic nonfiction,

00:14:33.820 | then do something that's useful and then you

00:14:35.580 | can write about it.

00:14:36.220 | That's easier.

00:14:37.260 | Yeah.

00:14:37.700 | If I want to give advice on something, uh,

00:14:39.660 | go do that thing.

00:14:40.300 | Well, it's like a much easier formula than if

00:14:43.060 | you want to report on Jewish delis, like,

00:14:44.460 | what can this person write?

00:14:45.660 | And does, you know, as it makes sense,

00:14:46.740 | he'll be right on that.

00:14:47.340 | Right.

00:14:48.060 | Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:14:49.220 | All right.

00:14:50.140 | Well, David, this is a, this has been great.

00:14:51.660 | This has been useful.

00:14:52.300 | Thanks for stopping by the studio and help me

00:14:53.980 | tackle some of these questions.

00:14:55.260 | And, um, I think we have to go find a deli.

00:14:57.180 | I think we do.

00:14:58.020 | It's a pleasure.

00:14:58.980 | Great to be here.

00:14:59.700 | I'm freezing.

00:15:00.180 | Turn the heat up.

00:15:02.620 | [music]

Getting Paid To Write (An Author Reveals The Roadmap!)

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