Teddy Atlas: Mike Tyson, Cus D'Amato, Boxing, Loyalty, Fear & Greatness

00:00:00.000 | That's all that matters, that he got there,

00:00:02.200 | that he got to the place to act like a fighter,

00:00:04.600 | to do what we want him to do, to be ready to persevere,

00:00:08.480 | to go beyond the comfort level, to do another round.

00:00:12.360 | He didn't want to, damn right he didn't want to,

00:00:15.120 | but he knew we want him to,

00:00:17.280 | and he knew in order to pass the test, he had to do it.

00:00:21.920 | He goes, "Now it's gonna be your job

00:00:23.880 | "to get him in the gym, make him mentally stronger,

00:00:26.620 | "make him face things, and teach him how to slip punches."

00:00:29.560 | And create holes, and fill those freaking holes

00:00:32.600 | with devastating punches, this is a classic.

00:00:35.060 | With punches with bad intentions.

00:00:37.280 | - The following is a conversation with Teddy Atlas,

00:00:43.840 | a legendary, and at times controversial,

00:00:45.880 | boxing trainer and commentator.

00:00:48.840 | When I was going to this conversation with Teddy,

00:00:51.120 | I was ready to talk boxing.

00:00:53.320 | Styles, matches, techniques, tactics,

00:00:56.040 | and his analysis of individual fighters

00:00:58.240 | like Mike Tyson, Michael Moore, Klitschko's,

00:01:01.120 | Usyk, Pawecki, Lomachenko, Triple G, Canelo,

00:01:04.600 | Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Leonard, Hagler,

00:01:06.920 | Duran, Floyd, and on and on and on.

00:01:10.640 | Like I said, I came ready to talk boxing,

00:01:14.540 | but I stayed for something even bigger.

00:01:17.240 | The Shakespearean human story of Teddy Atlas,

00:01:20.320 | Customato, and Mike Tyson.

00:01:23.680 | It's a story about loyalty, betrayal,

00:01:26.640 | fear, and greatness.

00:01:29.120 | It's a story where nobody is perfect,

00:01:31.320 | and everybody is human.

00:01:33.640 | To summarize, in the early '80s,

00:01:35.440 | young trainer Teddy Atlas worked with his mentor,

00:01:39.240 | Customato, in training the young boxing protege,

00:01:42.880 | now a boxing legend, Mike Tyson.

00:01:46.600 | Mike was a troubled youth, arrested over 40 times,

00:01:49.680 | and at age 15, he was sexually inappropriate

00:01:53.080 | with Teddy's 11-year-old niece.

00:01:55.680 | In response to this, Teddy put a .38 caliber handgun

00:01:59.520 | to Tyson's ear and told him to never touch his family again,

00:02:02.640 | or he would kill him if he did.

00:02:05.720 | For this, Customato kicked Teddy out.

00:02:08.400 | Why?

00:02:09.720 | Well, that's complicated.

00:02:11.300 | In part, I think to help minimize the chance

00:02:14.040 | of Mike Tyson, who Cust legally adopted,

00:02:17.240 | would be taken away by the state,

00:02:19.820 | and with him, the dream of developing

00:02:21.720 | one of the greatest boxers of all time.

00:02:24.680 | Of course, that summary doesn't capture

00:02:26.940 | the full complexity of human nature

00:02:28.640 | and human drama involved here.

00:02:31.280 | For that, you have to listen to this conversation,

00:02:34.440 | the things said and the things left unsaid,

00:02:37.600 | the pain in Teddy's voice,

00:02:39.560 | the contradictions of love and anger

00:02:41.920 | that permeate his stories and his philosophy on life.

00:02:45.140 | Like I said, I came to talk about boxing

00:02:49.440 | and stayed to talk about life.

00:02:52.560 | This conversation will stay with me for a long time.

00:02:55.240 | The people close to you, the people you trust,

00:03:00.520 | the people you love, are everything.

00:03:03.760 | And if they betray you and break your heart, forgive them.

00:03:07.480 | Forgive yourself and try again.

00:03:10.900 | Happy holidays, everyone.

00:03:13.920 | I love you all.

00:03:14.800 | This is "Alex Friedman Podcast."

00:03:17.560 | To support it, please check out our sponsors

00:03:19.760 | in the description.

00:03:21.120 | And now, dear friends, here's Teddy Atlas.

00:03:25.080 | You wrote in the book that your father

00:03:27.680 | had a big influence on your life.

00:03:29.800 | What lessons have you learned about life from your father?

00:03:33.020 | - When you ask that question, you know,

00:03:35.920 | I remember Coach D'Amato, when I was with him

00:03:38.920 | up in Gadsden for all those years,

00:03:40.520 | he used to say to me, "Teddy, you learn through osmosis."

00:03:45.200 | I believe that's true to that, if I know what osmosis is.

00:03:49.880 | (laughing)

00:03:52.040 | But it sounds good.

00:03:53.640 | But I learned through osmosis with my father.

00:03:56.960 | He wasn't a big talker, he was, you know, he was a doer.

00:04:00.880 | And when you're around someone who lives

00:04:05.360 | a certain kind of life and does certain things,

00:04:07.720 | it penetrates.

00:04:10.080 | - He was a doctor.

00:04:11.360 | - He was, I'm gonna sound like an idiot right now

00:04:13.720 | because I'm being a son, but he was the greatest

00:04:18.280 | magnetistic doctor, I mean, if I say I ever knew,

00:04:23.280 | what's that mean?

00:04:24.640 | You know what I mean, are you a doctor?

00:04:25.960 | You know what I mean, like, what does that mean?

00:04:28.760 | But other people have told me this.

00:04:31.520 | Like, just legendary stories.

00:04:33.120 | - He would do house calls and he would help people,

00:04:34.880 | and like you said, a lot of people have spoken about

00:04:37.040 | the impact he's had on their life.

00:04:38.600 | - He built two hospitals.

00:04:39.920 | And he built a hospital before the Verrazano Bridge

00:04:43.680 | in New York, connecting Brooklyn to Staten Island.

00:04:46.760 | And he built it so people could get proper hospital care

00:04:51.760 | they couldn't afford it, period.

00:04:53.240 | And everybody looked at him as eccentric.

00:04:57.600 | - Yeah, nice.

00:04:59.240 | - Yeah, because he would literally sneak patients,

00:05:03.920 | not sneak 'em in, he was Dr. Atlas.

00:05:05.640 | He could do what he wanted to a certain extent,

00:05:07.160 | but he would bring patients in without administering,

00:05:11.600 | putting through administration, so there was no charge

00:05:14.720 | because they didn't have anything.

00:05:16.960 | They were street people.

00:05:18.720 | I remember being, my only way to be with my father

00:05:23.000 | was to go on house calls, or to go to the door.

00:05:26.160 | There was no, you know, and so I went on house calls with him.

00:05:29.240 | And he did house calls, by the way, 'til he was 80.

00:05:31.680 | And three dollars, I mean, it was better than McDonald's,

00:05:34.760 | you know what I mean, I mean, the deal.

00:05:36.720 | Three dollars, and you got medicine, you got everything.

00:05:42.400 | But he used to, right around the holidays,

00:05:45.040 | there was just certain things that I didn't understand,

00:05:47.480 | but I understood later, where we would just

00:05:51.560 | drive certain areas, and he'd just,

00:05:54.000 | all of a sudden, open his door.

00:05:55.680 | He would pick up things, and you know.

00:05:58.640 | - Help him. - I'm 10 years old.

00:06:00.300 | - Yeah. - You know, move over.

00:06:01.920 | Move over, you know, and.

00:06:04.280 | - It's just you, him, and a homeless guy.

00:06:06.000 | - A couple. - Yeah, a couple.

00:06:07.800 | - Whatever he can fit in, three, four, you know,

00:06:10.160 | whatever it was.

00:06:11.120 | - That's a big heart.

00:06:12.120 | - And then he took him to the hospital, dropped him off.

00:06:13.760 | So, you know, I would ask questions

00:06:15.480 | after it was all over with.

00:06:16.520 | I'd say, "Dad, they're sick."

00:06:18.000 | He goes, "Well, not in a way,

00:06:20.800 | "whether you put them in the hospital."

00:06:23.400 | So, he said, yeah, and he'd try to explain things to me.

00:06:26.080 | You know, he would try, he didn't talk much

00:06:28.200 | unless you asked him something.

00:06:29.600 | - Yeah. - And that kind of works.

00:06:30.860 | And, you know, don't talk unless someone asks you something.

00:06:33.320 | - Yeah. - And he explained to me that,

00:06:38.320 | he said, "Well, why are you putting them in the hospital?"

00:06:42.080 | Then, you know, and of course the sickness was,

00:06:44.320 | they were alcoholics.

00:06:45.480 | But, "Why are you putting them?"

00:06:48.160 | It wasn't an alcohol rehab, you know?

00:06:50.840 | So, "Why are you putting them?"

00:06:51.920 | And it wasn't for the purpose to dry out.

00:06:54.080 | He wasn't trying to cure them.

00:06:55.360 | - Yeah. - Let's put that first

00:06:56.560 | before we anoint him for sainthood, you know,

00:07:00.400 | by Teddy Atlas.

00:07:01.240 | So, I was like, we finally get to the point.

00:07:03.520 | Why you put them in there?

00:07:04.560 | - Yeah.

00:07:05.760 | - Well, because it's the holidays.

00:07:07.720 | All right, why you put them in there?

00:07:12.080 | Well, the holidays, you know,

00:07:13.680 | are good for certain people and bad for others.

00:07:16.200 | And it was always before the holidays.

00:07:19.600 | It was before Christmas, before whatever.

00:07:21.720 | And New Year's, whatever.

00:07:24.240 | And so, I said, "Why?"

00:07:26.700 | And he said, "Because they remind people,

00:07:32.080 | "certain people, of what they don't have."

00:07:34.200 | That other people enjoy the holidays

00:07:40.080 | because of what they have, family, you know, whatever.

00:07:42.960 | And it reminds them, their mind is that.

00:07:46.720 | - That's pretty profound.

00:07:47.560 | - Yeah, and then, I don't remember,

00:07:50.760 | because he didn't use the word suicide,

00:07:52.760 | but I got it.

00:07:54.160 | Like, he basically, I forget how he said it,

00:07:56.280 | but, like, I just got it.

00:07:58.200 | I don't know how he got, I don't know.

00:07:59.880 | But I just got it, like, so they don't hurt themselves.

00:08:02.920 | That's what came across. - In every way.

00:08:04.480 | - I don't think he ever articulated that,

00:08:05.920 | or ever verbalized that,

00:08:07.240 | but yeah, they don't hurt themselves.

00:08:09.600 | And, well, how does that work?

00:08:11.800 | Well, just basically, they're gonna be around people

00:08:15.760 | that are gonna be alone.

00:08:16.840 | They're gonna be around people that are gonna get fed.

00:08:18.400 | They're gonna be warm, right?

00:08:20.080 | And it's gonna be for three days, two, three days, whatever.

00:08:22.920 | And basically, it's a bridge.

00:08:25.980 | So, the funny thing is, the 10-year-old,

00:08:29.200 | I wanted to, I want to be connected to him.

00:08:33.440 | So, I enlisted myself in the job

00:08:36.640 | when he used to drop them off.

00:08:40.600 | He would take them, get them in, right?

00:08:43.200 | And then, the thing that I know, again,

00:08:48.000 | he didn't say nothing, but you notice things.

00:08:51.160 | And if you care enough.

00:08:54.080 | You don't notice nothing if you don't care.

00:08:56.560 | But if you care, if it's important, you notice.

00:08:59.440 | And this guy was important to me.

00:09:01.000 | I just was, I didn't know what a hero was, no clue.

00:09:04.360 | I loved Mickey Mantle, I loved Willie Mays,

00:09:07.200 | I loved Muhammad Ali.

00:09:09.880 | I never, ever connected in my mind as heroes, never.

00:09:15.660 | My father, I didn't connect it that way, but he--

00:09:21.260 | - Looking back now--

00:09:22.100 | - Looking back, he was my first connection to a hero.

00:09:25.240 | - Did the two of you ever talk about

00:09:26.720 | how much you love each other?

00:09:28.920 | - The one thing that was not allowed.

00:09:33.240 | The greatest memory I have my father showing me love

00:09:36.600 | was, we were down in Florida at an airport,

00:09:39.600 | and we were, I was born in Miami,

00:09:43.480 | don't ask if I was passing through,

00:09:45.160 | and the rest of my family's born in New York, stand out.

00:09:48.840 | And so, I was supposed to go back home, right?

00:09:51.600 | And I wanted to stay with my mother for whatever reason.

00:09:55.720 | And so, he, of course, conceded to it.

00:10:01.720 | And he's, okay, you know, whatever.

00:10:04.040 | And very quiet, very, and this is a man

00:10:07.280 | who never showed emotion to anyone.

00:10:09.840 | I mean, for the most, you know, really.

00:10:12.560 | All of a sudden, he just turned

00:10:16.960 | and kissed me on the forehead and left.

00:10:19.320 | And I was like, that's different.

00:10:23.880 | - Yeah, you still remember that, huh?

00:10:26.120 | - Yeah, like, that's weird.

00:10:28.120 | - You lost him 30 years ago.

00:10:30.520 | How did that change you?

00:10:31.840 | - It made me realize that some of the deals

00:10:41.400 | I used to make for God weren't realistic.

00:10:45.800 | When I was a kid, I used to make deals for God,

00:10:47.880 | let me die before my father.

00:10:49.680 | And then, you know, you get older, you have kids,

00:10:58.080 | you're blessed, why did you make that deal?

00:11:01.440 | You know what I mean, like.

00:11:02.840 | Thank you for not taking me up on it.

00:11:07.320 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:11:08.160 | - Thanks.

00:11:09.000 | - Yeah.

00:11:09.840 | - You know?

00:11:13.960 | - Yeah, you miss him?

00:11:15.760 | - I miss him in moments when I'd like to know what to do.

00:11:20.080 | And, you know, I remember when I would drive

00:11:25.560 | with him on the house calls, he didn't listen to music.

00:11:29.200 | He was a guy, he read books to his, when he got older,

00:11:34.520 | he read books till blood vessels broke in his eyes.

00:11:39.520 | He only read non-fiction books.

00:11:43.440 | Science, he loved science, wars, generals.

00:11:48.440 | I mean, I cheated on a couple book reports

00:11:51.560 | because I didn't do the reading of the book

00:11:54.160 | the night before, I had a freaking book report

00:11:57.200 | to put in that.

00:11:58.280 | I got a book report to do on the War of Stalingrad.

00:12:01.920 | Really, the War of Stalingrad.

00:12:03.680 | And who the freak could tell you where you get an A?

00:12:08.200 | I got an A.

00:12:09.040 | - Yeah.

00:12:10.120 | - I just wrote what he told me.

00:12:12.080 | Told me generals, he told me times, he told me strategy,

00:12:14.840 | he told me about the winter that came

00:12:16.680 | and destroyed the Germans.

00:12:17.880 | - Yeah.

00:12:18.720 | - And the Soviets were tougher than--

00:12:19.920 | - You got an A.

00:12:20.760 | - And the Soviets were tougher than the Germans

00:12:23.360 | and you know, the Germans picked on the wrong opponent.

00:12:26.400 | - Yeah.

00:12:27.240 | - I was already in the boxing business.

00:12:28.280 | - Yeah.

00:12:29.120 | - I didn't even know it.

00:12:29.960 | - Yeah.

00:12:30.780 | - I didn't even know it.

00:12:31.620 | - Yeah.

00:12:32.460 | - Matchmaking, very important.

00:12:33.280 | - Yeah.

00:12:34.120 | - They mismatched.

00:12:35.360 | They made a mistake with picking the opponent.

00:12:38.520 | And so when we would be driving in the car,

00:12:42.280 | my father would be in a trance.

00:12:45.440 | And dad, he wasn't ignoring me at all.

00:12:51.640 | He was just with his thoughts.

00:12:54.160 | He was wherever.

00:12:56.400 | He wasn't even hearing the radio no more.

00:12:58.400 | I always wondered where he was.

00:13:01.040 | I did.

00:13:01.880 | So I asked him one day.

00:13:03.520 | And just so we're driving, I said, I wanna know.

00:13:06.160 | So I said, dad, what do you think

00:13:07.600 | when you're basically in this place

00:13:11.240 | that I know you're somewhere?

00:13:12.560 | - Yeah.

00:13:13.400 | - What do you, where are you?

00:13:15.360 | What do you see?

00:13:17.800 | I actually said, what do you see?

00:13:20.520 | And he said to me, I see what could be.

00:13:24.060 | I see what could be.

00:13:28.000 | And I'm like, oh, all right.

00:13:32.160 | - I gotta ask you, when did you discover boxing?

00:13:34.800 | When did you first fall in love with boxing?

00:13:38.160 | - When it saved me.

00:13:40.280 | - How did it save you?

00:13:43.080 | - I was a stupid, violent kid that was angry.

00:13:47.760 | Not exactly know why I was angry.

00:13:50.440 | I'd fit in real good in today's society

00:13:55.360 | because there's a lot of angry kids out there

00:13:57.040 | that I don't think they know why they're angry.

00:13:59.560 | I was just out there getting in fights.

00:14:02.240 | And I got this stupid thing from that.

00:14:05.480 | - Can you tell the story of how you got that?

00:14:07.680 | - I was just running around doing stupid things, bad things.

00:14:11.200 | I hurt people, some people physically,

00:14:13.040 | but I hurt my family.

00:14:17.320 | You know, that's BS.

00:14:20.200 | You only hurt yourself.

00:14:21.520 | You know, that's a good way of, you know, alibi-ing it.

00:14:26.240 | But at some point, the truth usually finds its way.

00:14:32.840 | I'd like it to look like I was just hurting myself,

00:14:35.720 | but I wasn't, obviously.

00:14:37.560 | So I was just out on the streets

00:14:41.000 | with kids that didn't grow up in the neighborhood I grew up.

00:14:43.360 | I grew up in a neighborhood where a father was a doctor.

00:14:46.720 | And I walked down the street.

00:14:48.880 | The funny thing was down the hill

00:14:50.640 | was a very tough neighborhood called Stapleton.

00:14:53.160 | And most of the people down there on the corners

00:14:56.120 | wished they could get up the hill.

00:14:57.720 | And I wished I could get down the hill.

00:15:00.280 | So I went down the hill.

00:15:02.200 | And I hung out with all these friends

00:15:04.920 | that became lifelong friends.

00:15:07.520 | And I gravitated to that

00:15:12.520 | because I figured out later a little bit,

00:15:16.000 | but, you know, I wanted family.

00:15:17.960 | We were a disjointed family.

00:15:19.760 | We were, you know, my father was a doctor.

00:15:22.440 | He didn't have time for nothing but being a doctor.

00:15:25.160 | You know, I think when you're great at something,

00:15:27.480 | you sacrifice something, too.

00:15:29.680 | You know, when you're really great at something.

00:15:31.720 | So great that maybe God made you great

00:15:33.960 | and you're too great for your own good.

00:15:37.480 | And I don't know, it took me to these stupid,

00:15:39.920 | dangerous places.

00:15:42.600 | Dangerous for me, but dangerous for other people, too,

00:15:44.480 | because I got to the point where I was doing robberies

00:15:46.840 | on the street, I was fighting everybody.

00:15:49.520 | And you know what the most dangerous part about it was?

00:15:52.720 | And I came to this realization on my own, all by myself.

00:15:56.040 | I figured out, I was really as dangerous,

00:16:00.640 | you know, these kids from the projects,

00:16:02.000 | some of them, they got nothing.

00:16:04.160 | First of all, I learned you don't have to be poor

00:16:07.760 | to be poor.

00:16:10.720 | You don't have to be deprived of certain things

00:16:15.000 | to be deprived.

00:16:16.120 | Because you, at least to think you're deprived.

00:16:22.800 | And I was poor in a way that I didn't have

00:16:25.560 | the only thing I wanted to have, him.

00:16:28.360 | So here I am where I'm out there doing these things

00:16:33.360 | and what made me more, I was more dangerous

00:16:37.120 | than some of these psychopaths.

00:16:39.120 | Well, I was a psychopath, too, I guess,

00:16:40.600 | the way I was behaving.

00:16:41.720 | But some of these psychopaths, they really had nothing.

00:16:45.300 | You know, really would, you know,

00:16:48.240 | they obviously would kill you.

00:16:50.520 | I was dangerous almost in the same way,

00:16:54.800 | but for a different reason.

00:16:56.640 | I know it's ridiculous what I'm about to tell you,

00:16:58.520 | but I figured it out, 'cause I felt it.

00:17:02.480 | I thought I was on a righteous path.

00:17:04.440 | I thought I had a right.

00:17:08.480 | Because it was gonna get me my father back.

00:17:11.440 | Why, why?

00:17:13.160 | I mean, you know, you're a scientist,

00:17:15.240 | you couldn't figure this one out.

00:17:16.720 | Because all the people that had him

00:17:20.920 | were injured people, fractured people,

00:17:23.600 | screwed up people in some ways,

00:17:25.720 | but hurt, damaged people.

00:17:28.280 | So if I get damaged, I get 'em.

00:17:34.600 | So I was on a crusade, really, a righteous crusade,

00:17:39.080 | where I thought it was okay.

00:17:41.920 | I had permission.

00:17:43.800 | I had permission to do these terrible things, quite frankly,

00:17:48.800 | and to fight everyone, and to, I did.

00:17:51.840 | And then it came almost to a crash,

00:17:56.360 | doing all that, you know,

00:17:59.200 | winding up in Rikers Island like an idiot.

00:18:02.880 | Not understanding the damage I did to this poor man

00:18:05.360 | that, you know, he was a great doctor,

00:18:08.640 | and he's gotta see his son and hear about,

00:18:11.800 | you know what I mean?

00:18:12.640 | Like, God.

00:18:14.520 | I was out on that day, you know,

00:18:18.560 | with the guys that I grew up with now, you know,

00:18:21.280 | the guys from the projects, as I described,

00:18:24.240 | and I was with one of 'em who, he's dead now.

00:18:27.600 | So I was with him, and we were,

00:18:32.080 | we were in a neighborhood, the neighborhood we grew up,

00:18:35.060 | that I hung out in, and he grew up in, Billy.

00:18:38.000 | He came from the project.

00:18:40.200 | And we got into a thing where we cut,

00:18:42.720 | somebody cut us off, we cut them off, you know,

00:18:45.220 | jumped out to fight.

00:18:46.300 | And, you know, it turned out there's like

00:18:51.360 | five or six of them, and two of us.

00:18:54.080 | And, you know, we fought, you know,

00:18:58.840 | right on the side, right there.

00:19:00.800 | Only about a block from where I used to hang out.

00:19:04.120 | And maybe a block and a half.

00:19:06.280 | And right in front of like a Spanish bodega.

00:19:09.200 | And it really does happen in slow motion.

00:19:12.520 | I actually saw the guys, fighting the guys

00:19:14.880 | that I had to fight, and then all of a sudden,

00:19:18.080 | I was able to get one guy out of the way a little bit.

00:19:22.000 | And I really, I noticed the guy go into his pocket.

00:19:26.800 | And I knew why he was going in his pocket, you know?

00:19:30.660 | And when he came out of his pocket,

00:19:35.160 | I knew what it was right away.

00:19:36.280 | It was weird, because in the neighborhood,

00:19:38.600 | guys used to hang out, they were into this,

00:19:41.260 | you know, they get into fads, like, right on the streets.

00:19:44.080 | And they were into, at that time,

00:19:45.640 | they were into this cheap knife,

00:19:47.040 | but it was, they thought it was,

00:19:48.440 | well, we thought it was cool.

00:19:50.200 | It was a 007.

00:19:51.720 | And the cool thing, whatever, was that you could flick it.

00:19:56.720 | You could learn, and I learned how to flick, you know?

00:19:59.780 | But I never carried a knife.

00:20:01.120 | But when my friends would have it,

00:20:02.920 | I would just, you learn how you could flick it open.

00:20:05.600 | Not a switchblade, but flick it with your wrist.

00:20:08.600 | And I was like, here I am in the middle

00:20:11.240 | of this frickin' fight, and all of a sudden,

00:20:12.880 | oh, it's a 007, you know?

00:20:14.640 | And so, I'm like, you gotta make a decision, you know?

00:20:19.640 | And I got a split, I can either not do nothin',

00:20:27.080 | which didn't seem like a great, you know, a great option.

00:20:32.080 | I couldn't run away.

00:20:36.740 | - Why not?

00:20:37.580 | - 'Cause you gotta live with yourself afterwards,

00:20:41.660 | and that's more difficult to live with

00:20:44.500 | than whatever it is at that second,

00:20:45.980 | because that don't go away.

00:20:47.140 | - You couldn't live with yourself running away.

00:20:49.340 | - It just don't go away.

00:20:50.820 | That thing, none to do with being brave.

00:20:54.060 | It had nothing to do with being brave, really.

00:20:56.740 | It's got to do with just common sense in life,

00:20:59.920 | that for me, whatever you're dealing with, it's done.

00:21:04.920 | Like, okay, deal with it, go to bed, whatever.

00:21:08.700 | But you do that, you know, that other thing, you're gone.

00:21:13.620 | That never ends, this thing ends.

00:21:19.820 | - Memory of you being, let's say, a coward in that moment,

00:21:23.580 | that never ends.

00:21:24.740 | - The only thing I had at that point in my life,

00:21:27.620 | in my stupid mind, was a reputation,

00:21:31.140 | that I would stand up to certain things.

00:21:35.060 | That was like, and that, for me, was worth something,

00:21:40.060 | whatever, because I didn't feel any worth to anything else.

00:21:44.380 | That was the only thing I felt a connection of worth to, so.

00:21:47.460 | - So stood your ground, and you got caught.

00:21:49.300 | - No, I made a decision.

00:21:50.820 | I stood my ground, but I actually, things do slow down.

00:21:54.700 | They do.

00:21:55.540 | And I actually said, it's a double seven,

00:21:57.820 | he's got to flick it, you know, I didn't say it.

00:22:00.060 | But he's got to flick it, I get a split second,

00:22:02.820 | either, like I said, either I do nothing, whatever,

00:22:05.540 | or I get to him before he gets it flicked.

00:22:08.380 | I went to get to him before he got flicked.

00:22:10.780 | And just as I got close to him, I did him a favor.

00:22:15.780 | I walked right into a counterpunch.

00:22:19.180 | Because I cooperated with him.

00:22:24.380 | I went right to him.

00:22:25.500 | And just as I, he practiced more than I did

00:22:30.500 | with the double seven, apparently.

00:22:33.980 | Because he was like, womp, womp, womp, womp.

00:22:36.900 | And anyway.

00:22:40.580 | - What did you think?

00:22:42.540 | What did you think that happened?

00:22:44.300 | That was all slow motion.

00:22:46.020 | Did you think he might die?

00:22:47.380 | - Yeah, well, not immediately.

00:22:52.740 | Took me a minute.

00:22:54.100 | I'm a slow learner.

00:22:55.180 | I'd put my hand up.

00:22:57.820 | Right, wouldn't you?

00:22:58.660 | I guess so.

00:22:59.740 | And it went into my face.

00:23:01.500 | And that was it.

00:23:02.580 | It was gooey.

00:23:03.700 | It was warm and gooey.

00:23:06.140 | And I was like, I don't know what this means,

00:23:11.060 | but I don't want to know.

00:23:12.380 | But I think I know.

00:23:21.500 | - Did you think about your dad in that moment?

00:23:24.100 | - No, you know, what I thought about him was,

00:23:26.300 | you don't know who anyone is until they test it.

00:23:30.780 | And I learned that.

00:23:32.260 | Cush used to tell me, but I learned it.

00:23:35.620 | He used to say, I remember one time Cush,

00:23:38.140 | I was a 17, 18 year old kid up there,

00:23:40.500 | and thought I was whatever I thought I was.

00:23:44.460 | And he said, "You got a lot of friends?"

00:23:46.740 | And I said, "Yeah."

00:23:48.820 | Because I was on the street,

00:23:50.100 | hanging out with a hundred kids at night sometimes

00:23:52.660 | on the street corners.

00:23:53.500 | So I was like, I don't know,

00:23:56.140 | too many people that hung out with a hundred kids

00:23:57.940 | on the street, on a corner, on a Friday, Saturday night.

00:24:02.060 | And I was like, "Yeah, I got a lot of friends."

00:24:04.260 | He goes, "Really?"

00:24:06.100 | I said, "Yeah, really."

00:24:08.380 | He said, "How about if I told you, you might not have any?

00:24:13.380 | "Most likely you don't have any."

00:24:16.380 | And he goes, and then he just started this thing.

00:24:20.700 | He said, "Everyone's got to be tested.

00:24:23.460 | "You, me, everyone.

00:24:27.080 | "'Cause you don't know about nobody 'til they're tested."

00:24:29.860 | He goes, "You know nothing.

00:24:32.100 | "Because you know nothing until you know.

00:24:34.520 | "Until something happens to test

00:24:36.460 | "if they were really a friend."

00:24:38.020 | And then he told me this story about a guy.

00:24:40.340 | A guy came to him and he was upset.

00:24:42.900 | "What are you upset about?"

00:24:44.300 | He goes, "I'm upset because I just lost a friend.

00:24:49.300 | "After 20 years of friendship, we're not friends no more."

00:24:56.060 | So he goes, "Let me ask you a question.

00:24:59.500 | "What made you think you ever friends with him?"

00:25:02.220 | Now the guy gets insulted.

00:25:03.420 | He goes, "Did you hear me?"

00:25:05.380 | He goes, "I just told you 20 years

00:25:07.940 | "I've been friends with this guy.

00:25:09.840 | "Why would you say that to me?"

00:25:11.900 | He said, "Well, I'll say it again.

00:25:14.940 | "What makes you think he was your friend?"

00:25:17.140 | He goes, "Whatever happened in the 20 years

00:25:21.260 | "other than chasing girls."

00:25:23.260 | This guy figured that one out fast.

00:25:25.240 | "Chasing girls and drinking together

00:25:28.140 | "and whatever else you're doing out on the street.

00:25:32.040 | "Whatever gave you the inclination that he was a friend?"

00:25:37.040 | He goes, "Whatever, when did he risk himself

00:25:41.540 | "to be your friend?

00:25:42.760 | "When was it dangerous to be your friend?"

00:25:44.700 | - When was the friendship tested?

00:25:45.900 | - "When was it uncomfortable to be your friend?"

00:25:49.620 | And you know what the guy said?

00:25:50.740 | You can figure it out, you're a scientist.

00:25:52.500 | He said, "Today."

00:25:57.500 | And today came for me.

00:26:03.540 | And today, today, today, today kept coming for me.

00:26:08.500 | Today, and that day my friend, Billy,

00:26:12.260 | had turned out while I was fighting these whatever,

00:26:15.100 | five, six guys.

00:26:16.700 | And where was Billy?

00:26:18.140 | He was on a roof, he was on a roof, he was on a roof.

00:26:23.140 | He was my best friend.

00:26:24.300 | And so anyway, they take me to the hospital.

00:26:31.300 | And here's the thing with my father.

00:26:33.660 | But one thing Billy did do for me

00:26:35.380 | when he got off the roof, thank God,

00:26:38.100 | he did, he dragged me into this bodega,

00:26:42.380 | laid me on the floor, and started putting towels.

00:26:45.760 | And the towels, I vaguely remember this,

00:26:51.900 | they filled up with blood.

00:26:53.980 | I mean, completely drenched,

00:26:56.060 | like you put 'em under a shower.

00:26:57.860 | And I heard the bodega owner screaming,

00:27:03.100 | screaming, you know, like, "What?"

00:27:05.500 | You know, whatever.

00:27:07.220 | And everyone's screaming and there's chaos.

00:27:09.860 | And I'm like, I don't know, I'm calm, weird.

00:27:14.420 | I'm like, real calm.

00:27:15.780 | And I'm just in this place,

00:27:21.740 | everything's calm.

00:27:24.240 | And all of a sudden, I hear Billy,

00:27:29.060 | he's screaming, "Call the ambulance, call the ambulance."

00:27:32.780 | You know, and nobody's doing nothing, everyone's frozen.

00:27:36.740 | I'm starting to understand already,

00:27:38.980 | people get frozen in situations.

00:27:40.940 | People, the fear, fear, fear, fear, fear,

00:27:45.720 | just paralyzes people.

00:27:48.620 | And I was going into a fear business.

00:27:52.900 | I was learning, I was learning,

00:27:54.500 | I was getting a learning, an early PhD.

00:27:57.380 | - A student in fear.

00:27:59.220 | - Yeah, and all of a sudden, genius,

00:28:02.940 | Billy, genius, really, street kid.

00:28:06.740 | He jumps up on a freaking counter,

00:28:08.940 | jumps over the counter, grabs the phone,

00:28:11.820 | calls 911, says a cop's been shot.

00:28:14.300 | And forget about it, it was crazy.

00:28:18.540 | All I remember after that,

00:28:19.860 | I'll tell you a couple of things I remember.

00:28:21.220 | Lights, being put onto a stretcher,

00:28:25.700 | bounced around, you know, rushed.

00:28:28.740 | I felt everyone's anxiety, except mine, I had none.

00:28:33.500 | But I felt everyone's anxiety, everyone's fear.

00:28:36.480 | Like, it was all around me, it was like,

00:28:37.820 | oh, this is interesting, this is kind of interesting.

00:28:40.740 | I know that's stupid, but like, well, this is interesting.

00:28:45.340 | - You really have an eye for fear, that's fascinating.

00:28:47.860 | You're really studying it.

00:28:49.660 | - Well, I had no choice, I got introduced in a crash course,

00:28:53.420 | and they put me in the ambulance,

00:28:57.120 | and this is what I remember, to your point.

00:28:58.940 | I'm sorry it took so long to get to it.

00:29:00.900 | I am, although I'll probably do it again

00:29:03.020 | before this conversation's over.

00:29:05.220 | But I-- - It's all about the journey.

00:29:06.880 | - Yeah, we'll get there, we'll get there, pops.

00:29:09.720 | So I hear the cops say, "We might lose him."

00:29:14.420 | And I'm like, laughing to myself.

00:29:17.380 | I'm not laughing because I'm not, again, I'm not John Wayne.

00:29:20.820 | John Wayne would've laughed.

00:29:22.340 | But I'm like, hey, lose?

00:29:26.460 | You guys are stupid, you know, I didn't say that.

00:29:29.080 | But I'm like, lose me?

00:29:32.180 | My father's the greatest doctor in the freaking world.

00:29:35.100 | There's nothing to worry about.

00:29:36.660 | You people are all uptight and whacked out here with fear,

00:29:41.660 | and there's nothing to worry about.

00:29:46.520 | Dr. Atlas is my father.

00:29:48.180 | So anyway, so they're taking me to the,

00:29:51.620 | and they say, "We don't have time."

00:29:53.240 | I hear, a couple things I remember, don't have time.

00:29:56.600 | Take 'em to, and they take me to US Public Health Hospital.

00:30:00.760 | Marina Hospital it was called at the time,

00:30:03.000 | but US Public Health.

00:30:04.680 | And it's in Stapleton, so it's close, thank God.

00:30:07.780 | So they're taking me, and I hear them on the radio,

00:30:10.520 | you know, saying this stuff about we gotta move,

00:30:14.780 | we gotta move.

00:30:16.000 | And I start talking, and they're telling me don't talk.

00:30:21.440 | But I like to talk a lot, you know?

00:30:25.120 | And I'm, so again, fear.

00:30:29.200 | There's no fear when the fear's been removed.

00:30:33.020 | It's the only time you're really free in life.

00:30:37.720 | And I know that sounds absurd, but really, it is.

00:30:42.520 | It's the only time you're really free in life.

00:30:44.840 | I was, when you-- - Close to death?

00:30:47.360 | - When you're devoid of things that normally hold you back,

00:30:52.360 | that normally influence you in ways that, you know,

00:30:56.640 | that are not of the influence,

00:30:59.080 | that are always positive influence,

00:31:01.440 | where you're in a pure place,

00:31:03.720 | where you're in a purely free place from all inhibitions,

00:31:07.800 | from fear, from anxiety, from joy.

00:31:12.640 | Joy can screw you up.

00:31:13.840 | And you're free from all these things.

00:31:16.580 | And I'm in this place.

00:31:17.640 | - In the back of an ambulance, you're free.

00:31:19.800 | - Yeah, I'm like, I said, just get me Dr. Atlas.

00:31:23.720 | And they say, we don't have time.

00:31:25.920 | No, no, no, no, no, you don't.

00:31:27.760 | You have to get Dr. Atlas.

00:31:30.240 | You have to get him.

00:31:31.240 | This was the, damn it, this was the,

00:31:34.000 | you know what I mean?

00:31:34.820 | I finally freaking hit the number,

00:31:36.160 | and I'm not getting paid.

00:31:37.640 | And then all of a sudden, I'm out.

00:31:39.640 | - How many stitches did you take?

00:31:40.880 | - Well, I think it was 400, 200 inside, 200 outside,

00:31:44.320 | or whatever it was.

00:31:45.160 | - That's a lot.

00:31:45.980 | - Look, after 50, that number doesn't matter no more, right?

00:31:50.980 | Or whatever, 60, 70, 80, 90, whatever.

00:31:54.720 | You know, so I was fortunate.

00:31:56.320 | I was fortunate.

00:31:57.320 | And of course, I was fortunate.

00:31:59.040 | They told me afterwards that I missed my jugular

00:32:00.960 | literally by like a centimeter.

00:32:04.400 | I mean, whatever.

00:32:06.120 | And so then we wouldn't be having

00:32:08.680 | this conversation, obviously.

00:32:10.600 | - Well, I'm glad you made it.

00:32:11.560 | - Yeah.

00:32:12.400 | - That's another thing.

00:32:13.220 | - I'm kind of glad, too.

00:32:15.000 | And it just missed my eye, which, thank God.

00:32:18.360 | It's bad enough I have a scar.

00:32:19.440 | Imagine me with a patch.

00:32:21.000 | I mean, it's enough that I got this freaking thing.

00:32:25.400 | And look, it goes all the way.

00:32:28.480 | You know what I mean?

00:32:29.320 | It's pretty long.

00:32:31.360 | And I don't know, I was out.

00:32:36.360 | And then somehow, I sensed like they had the curtain closed.

00:32:42.640 | And it's amazing how vivid this is.

00:32:45.700 | And the curtain's closed and I see a shadow.

00:32:49.700 | I felt a presence.

00:32:51.420 | I did.

00:32:52.420 | And I felt him.

00:32:53.780 | He's a powerful guy.

00:32:56.300 | And I felt him.

00:32:58.060 | And I just see like a shadow, you know?

00:33:00.380 | And all of a sudden, the curtain gets pushed back.

00:33:04.940 | And I can't really see.

00:33:06.100 | It's dark and I'm, you know, out of it.

00:33:08.960 | But not completely out of it.

00:33:11.960 | And pushes the curtain back, comes in.

00:33:15.380 | And his hand, even though it's all bandage, you know,

00:33:20.220 | whatever, but his hand surveys.

00:33:23.420 | It felt safe.

00:33:29.020 | And it felt warm and safe.

00:33:32.940 | I was happy.

00:33:35.940 | And he got there, you know?

00:33:37.820 | - Did he say something?

00:33:38.780 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:33:40.300 | Remember, I gave you a little bit of introduction

00:33:42.240 | to my father, right?

00:33:43.080 | You know him now a little bit, right?

00:33:44.260 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:33:45.100 | What'd he say about the job?

00:33:47.180 | - He just said, this is what he said.

00:33:48.460 | I remember to this day what he said.

00:33:49.800 | - Yeah.

00:33:50.640 | - That I do remember.

00:33:51.460 | I don't know if it was six or five people,

00:33:53.080 | but this I do remember.

00:33:54.620 | - Yeah.

00:33:55.740 | - He said, "They did a good job.

00:33:57.500 | "You're gonna have a scar the rest of your life."

00:34:00.580 | And he left.

00:34:01.420 | - Oh, man.

00:34:07.260 | They did a good job.

00:34:09.500 | - "You mentioned Kostamato, legendary trainer.

00:34:14.180 | "And you also mentioned it turned out

00:34:15.660 | "he really cared about you.

00:34:17.480 | "In the book you write about a testimony he gave."

00:34:21.500 | I was hoping I could read it,

00:34:24.380 | 'cause it speaks to your character, it speaks to his.

00:34:26.940 | It's just powerful.

00:34:28.540 | The testimony goes, "Your Honor,

00:34:31.360 | "I realize you might not know much about me,

00:34:34.220 | "but I spent my whole life developing young men.

00:34:36.780 | "As a boxing manager, I trained two world champions,

00:34:39.340 | "heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson,

00:34:41.180 | "and light heavyweight champion Jose Torres.

00:34:44.120 | "I've also helped a lot of other young boys

00:34:48.020 | "straighten out their lives and build character.

00:34:50.620 | "I know things about Teddy Atlas this court doesn't know,

00:34:54.420 | "things you won't find on his arrest record.

00:34:57.720 | "This boy has character, he has loyalty.

00:35:01.160 | "He'll hurt himself before he'll let down a friend.

00:35:04.240 | "These qualities are rare, and they shouldn't be lost.

00:35:08.240 | "He's made mistakes, we've all made mistakes,

00:35:11.440 | "but I've come to know this boy,

00:35:13.120 | "and if we lose him, we'll be losing someone

00:35:15.800 | "who could help a lot of people.

00:35:18.120 | "Please don't take this young boy's future away.

00:35:21.380 | "He could be someone special.

00:35:23.340 | "Let's not lose him, please."

00:35:26.000 | Those are powerful words from a powerful man.

00:35:31.240 | What have you learned about life from Mr. Customato?

00:35:36.060 | - He gave me a quote, and he drilled into my head.

00:35:43.720 | I became his guy, you know?

00:35:45.480 | He loved me, I loved him.

00:35:47.820 | He said to me, "Teddy, no matter what a man says,

00:35:58.140 | "it's what he does in the end

00:35:59.460 | "that he intended to do all along."

00:36:01.560 | That's what I learned from Cust.

00:36:04.500 | The rest of it is BS.

00:36:08.160 | A lot of people say things.

00:36:17.940 | You just have to give 'em a minute

00:36:19.820 | to let them show you, eventually,

00:36:23.440 | what they really meant by it.

00:36:27.860 | I also learned from him that

00:36:30.660 | everyone's afraid.

00:36:37.700 | Cust is a way of saying, another great saying,

00:36:41.140 | you'll get a kick out of this.

00:36:43.260 | Anyone who's in a situation where fear should be prevalent,

00:36:46.860 | where fear is actually necessary to survive the situation,

00:36:50.900 | anyone who says that they're not afraid,

00:36:53.120 | they're one of two things.

00:36:54.920 | They're either a liar, or they should go to a doctor,

00:36:58.460 | find out what the frick's wrong with 'em.

00:37:00.500 | He was right about that.

00:37:03.260 | We live in a taboo society where that word,

00:37:09.660 | to a certain extent, is taboo,

00:37:13.100 | because it invokes weakness.

00:37:20.400 | We are just layers of what we saw and learned

00:37:25.020 | since we were kids.

00:37:25.980 | We all are.

00:37:27.340 | We're products of those layers.

00:37:29.460 | I learned that on my own, through some help.

00:37:32.860 | At the end of the day,

00:37:34.240 | fear, people will find their way of avoiding that term,

00:37:44.580 | so they use the word anxiety.

00:37:48.380 | They use the word, you know, butterflies.

00:37:51.500 | Apprehension, you know, a million different words.

00:37:58.560 | I find all those other words to be cousins of fear.

00:38:03.920 | And fear causes a lot of things in life.

00:38:07.920 | It causes a lot of problems,

00:38:10.060 | and it also solves a lot of problems.

00:38:12.040 | Without it, we couldn't be great.

00:38:14.520 | If we are great, if we ever have a chance

00:38:17.840 | to be great, or at least to aspire to be great.

00:38:22.600 | - How does fear connect to greatness?

00:38:24.680 | That's a profound statement.

00:38:27.520 | Without fear, we wouldn't be able to be great.

00:38:31.460 | - Yeah, you couldn't be great without fear,

00:38:33.640 | because fear allows you to be brave.

00:38:38.640 | The most important word for me

00:38:42.400 | in this whole conversation, right,

00:38:45.200 | in this whole neighborhood, would be selfishness.

00:38:47.660 | It allows you to be, for a moment, less selfish.

00:38:51.700 | One of the things I learned, I guess,

00:38:55.320 | partly on my own, everyone thinks

00:38:58.240 | my greatest teacher was Cuss.

00:38:59.680 | He was a great teacher, mentor.

00:39:01.760 | My greatest teacher was my father,

00:39:03.160 | the one who never taught.

00:39:04.400 | And I realized, one of the things to be better,

00:39:11.560 | towards great, is if you can submit less than we submit.

00:39:16.560 | See, one of the things that I'm afraid of,

00:39:22.680 | one of the things I was always quitting,

00:39:25.520 | in my business, it's kind of not a good thing.

00:39:27.820 | - Every business, I think.

00:39:30.640 | Yours is just more clear.

00:39:35.320 | - Yeah, it hurts more.

00:39:39.820 | - True, in the moment, at least.

00:39:42.500 | - Yeah, in the moment.

00:39:43.820 | You're right, 100%, because some things hurt

00:39:46.340 | for a long time afterwards.

00:39:48.260 | And something like regret.

00:39:51.820 | Regret is the worst thing in the world,

00:39:53.140 | because it's a solitary sentence.

00:39:55.240 | - That's a powerful phrase.

00:39:59.360 | Regret is a solitary sentence.

00:40:02.020 | Oh boy, you're full of good lines.

00:40:07.020 | - It wasn't easy to accumulate them.

00:40:10.020 | It was a little bit hurtful.

00:40:17.000 | Submit less, because we submit every day.

00:40:22.620 | And if we can get to a place where we submiss

00:40:24.660 | or compromise ourselves less,

00:40:26.500 | we'll get to a better place.

00:40:29.320 | Again, one of the words for me

00:40:34.660 | that attaches to things that wind up hurting you in life,

00:40:39.660 | and have hurt me in life,

00:40:41.620 | one of those boogeymen words is the word of convenience.

00:40:47.980 | That's attached to everything.

00:40:49.780 | People disappoint you not because

00:40:54.140 | they want to disappoint you,

00:40:55.780 | or let you down, or betray you,

00:40:58.480 | because they want to betray you.

00:41:00.380 | They do it because it's more convenient to do

00:41:03.820 | than the other thing.

00:41:05.180 | An old man once told me, he said to me,

00:41:09.320 | I was trying to rationalize something.

00:41:13.860 | I was trying to make some excuse for something.

00:41:16.700 | I was trying to make myself better than I was.

00:41:19.380 | I was trying to say it was okay.

00:41:21.880 | And he just looked at me, and he liked me.

00:41:25.740 | And he said, "Teddy, there ain't no such thing

00:41:29.720 | "as being a little pregnant."

00:41:33.740 | I was like, yeah.

00:41:36.540 | 'Cause either you're pregnant or you're not pregnant.

00:41:39.860 | Either you're real or you're not real.

00:41:42.300 | Either you're truthful or you're not truthful.

00:41:46.180 | Either you're tough or you're not tough.

00:41:47.540 | Either you're committed or you're not committed.

00:41:52.540 | Either you're in or you're out.

00:41:55.100 | - That applies to a lot of things.

00:41:57.700 | - Yeah. - Including loyalty.

00:41:59.220 | - That's quite a statement.

00:42:01.900 | But the lifeblood of humanity, for me, is loyalty.

00:42:04.700 | It's what goes through the veins of,

00:42:07.460 | everything has to have some veins in some form.

00:42:11.140 | And if humanity has veins,

00:42:13.380 | what runs through the veins of humanity

00:42:15.800 | instead of blood to keep it alive is loyalty.

00:42:18.200 | Without loyalty-- - Those are powerful words.

00:42:20.380 | - Without loyalty, we're dead.

00:42:22.100 | We're freaking, we're vessels.

00:42:23.820 | I never understood what a ghost ship was.

00:42:26.220 | You know what, as I got older,

00:42:27.300 | I know what a ghost ship is, it's people.

00:42:29.620 | It's people that are empty.

00:42:31.660 | They got no loyalty.

00:42:32.780 | Therefore, they got no humanity.

00:42:35.780 | Therefore, they got nothing.

00:42:38.180 | Therefore, freak them, freak them.

00:42:42.220 | Because, and you know why they don't have loyalty?

00:42:45.700 | Convenience, and you know why?

00:42:47.740 | Because it takes, it's hard to be loyal.

00:42:52.940 | It's actually hard.

00:42:54.100 | I'll be a son of a gun.

00:42:56.540 | Yeah, you're talking about, yeah, it sounds great.

00:42:59.580 | Give it to me, give it to me, paint me with it.

00:43:01.900 | Yeah, it's great, yeah, I'm loyal.

00:43:04.060 | Yeah, I'm great, yeah, this is good, I'm ready.

00:43:06.540 | I'm on that team, I'm ready, put me in, coach, I'm ready.

00:43:09.420 | Okay, now you have to, you're gonna have to get hurt here.

00:43:14.340 | What do you mean, get hurt?

00:43:15.420 | Oh, well, it's gonna be painful.

00:43:17.260 | I mean, to be loyal, you're gonna be in danger

00:43:20.380 | because the person that you committed your loyalty to

00:43:23.140 | for a reason, because obviously,

00:43:24.980 | you did something in your life, whatever, whatever.

00:43:29.220 | You're actually gonna get hurt to be loyal to 'em.

00:43:30.940 | You're actually gonna, hold on a minute, wait,

00:43:33.140 | hold on a minute, coach.

00:43:34.340 | Hold on, call time out here.

00:43:37.920 | Let me think about this, coach.

00:43:42.220 | I might need more practice.

00:43:44.220 | I'm not ready for the game.

00:43:45.740 | I'm not ready to go in the game yet.

00:43:47.540 | Give me a little more practice, coach.

00:43:49.260 | And it hurts to be loyal, it frickin' hurts.

00:43:53.660 | But without loyalty, we're ghost ships.

00:43:59.380 | We got no strength.

00:44:00.780 | We got nothing.

00:44:02.380 | We got nothing, we got nothing.

00:44:05.700 | - I agree with you in a deep, fundamental sense,

00:44:08.340 | but there's pain that comes with that.

00:44:12.820 | I have to ask you to introspect on this part of your life

00:44:17.820 | because of your value for loyalty.

00:44:20.800 | As people know, you and Acosta Motto,

00:44:27.140 | trained young Mike Tyson.

00:44:29.860 | And the interaction there between the three of you

00:44:34.860 | led to the three of you parting ways.

00:44:37.120 | Given your value for loyalty, can you tell the full story

00:44:42.100 | of what led up to this and maybe the pain you felt

00:44:47.100 | from that?

00:44:51.140 | (silence)

00:44:53.300 | - I guess it was the second time in my life I felt betrayed.

00:45:02.100 | The first time was when I was whatever, young, 17.

00:45:08.940 | And I got arrested.

00:45:13.060 | I was with all these older guys, tough guys, whatever.

00:45:19.940 | And supposedly, and the detectives separated us,

00:45:24.940 | that's what they do.

00:45:27.260 | And they asked me who did whatever, whose gun,

00:45:32.260 | this, that, all that, the particulars

00:45:35.380 | of obviously what we did.

00:45:37.180 | And it was me.

00:45:40.900 | And they said, "You sure?

00:45:43.000 | "You don't want to change that?

00:45:44.880 | "Because your friends changed it."

00:45:47.220 | And these cops, they were nasty,

00:45:49.480 | but they were cops.

00:45:50.320 | They were the way, you know, you're gonna wind up

00:45:52.460 | with Rikers and they're gonna be doing this to you.

00:45:55.540 | And I won't even say the things

00:45:56.740 | because then why say them, you know?

00:45:59.720 | Figure it out.

00:46:00.820 | But you know, they're trying to get what they're trying

00:46:02.740 | to get and you know, you want to change it?

00:46:06.060 | And no.

00:46:07.580 | But I felt very betrayed, you know?

00:46:13.020 | And especially when I was standing in the cell

00:46:17.100 | at Rikers looking at the airplanes leave LaGuardia Airport

00:46:22.000 | and then hoping I was on one.

00:46:24.120 | You know, I was making like a deal with God

00:46:25.880 | that let me be on one of those planes and let it crash.

00:46:29.960 | I'd take a shot.

00:46:31.560 | - Was part of you proud

00:46:32.600 | that you didn't give up your friends?

00:46:34.380 | - No, because I didn't understand what proud was.

00:46:38.000 | I didn't understand nothing.

00:46:39.040 | I just understood that--

00:46:40.840 | - Rules are rules, you're just loyal and that's it.

00:46:43.640 | - I didn't even know there was an option.

00:46:46.080 | I didn't think, I know the cops said you could do this

00:46:48.740 | but there was no option.

00:46:51.660 | My father never had an option

00:46:53.580 | but the betrayal, the private betrayal was like

00:46:59.500 | and so when Cuz, we were partners, me and Cuz.

00:47:04.500 | Cuz was retired.

00:47:08.200 | This stupid kid goes up there

00:47:10.540 | and all of a sudden I start training fighters.

00:47:13.540 | First I won the gloves, Cuz put me in the gloves,

00:47:15.500 | I won the gloves, then I had an injury, whatever

00:47:17.380 | but bottom line is I still want to fight.

00:47:19.700 | I want to turn pro, I want to fight.

00:47:21.220 | That was the plan and Cuz had a different plan.

00:47:25.920 | Cuz was like, and he had it set up a little bit,

00:47:31.060 | whatever, without getting into it.

00:47:32.940 | Hey, he did me a favor

00:47:35.020 | and I'd like to think he knew he was doing me a favor

00:47:37.220 | and you know what?

00:47:38.040 | I do think he was.

00:47:39.380 | He was doing himself a little bit of one too

00:47:41.380 | but he was doing it for the greater cause

00:47:43.500 | because he believed in this thing of boxing.

00:47:47.760 | He believed that it changed lives.

00:47:49.940 | He believed that it was worthwhile.

00:47:51.900 | He believed that there was a power to it

00:47:54.300 | beyond the left hook.

00:47:55.820 | - The big picture of boxing.

00:47:56.980 | - Yeah.

00:47:57.800 | - He believed in it.

00:47:58.640 | - Yeah, he believed that to be a champion,

00:48:01.140 | you had to be special, you had to be smart,

00:48:02.900 | you had to have character,

00:48:04.860 | that you had to be a better person

00:48:06.900 | and that you couldn't make a champion

00:48:08.580 | if you didn't make him a better person first

00:48:10.540 | and that this could strengthen people,

00:48:15.300 | the sport could strengthen people in those ways.

00:48:17.460 | So he was married to it

00:48:21.180 | and he was old and he needed,

00:48:25.140 | there was no one in the gym, it was empty

00:48:27.580 | and it was above a police station, which was crazy

00:48:31.940 | and he needed an heir to the throne.

00:48:36.060 | He needed to pass it on to someone

00:48:38.660 | and he saw something and all of a sudden

00:48:41.980 | he saw that my career as a boxer was less important

00:48:45.060 | than having me become his heir to the throne

00:48:47.780 | and become his trainer, his man, his guy

00:48:50.220 | to continue that we could do a lot more for him

00:48:53.740 | and for everyone, not just for him, but for everyone.

00:48:57.540 | It was more like to keep it going.

00:49:00.060 | Like it couldn't die, it couldn't die

00:49:02.340 | and the cousin was afraid that it would die with him

00:49:04.780 | and he committed his whole life to it.

00:49:06.180 | He didn't get married because of boxing.

00:49:07.900 | So he saw me as the little bit of the seed to plant

00:49:12.900 | for more things to grow before that plant died

00:49:22.580 | and so all of a sudden he said, "You can't fight."

00:49:26.700 | And I had people tell me

00:49:28.980 | that I could go somewhere else and fight

00:49:31.420 | and I could, but I couldn't because I'd be disloyal.

00:49:36.660 | - Loyalties, everything.

00:49:37.860 | - Yeah, so I couldn't leave 'cause and he kind of knew that

00:49:41.260 | and so I couldn't leave him and he said,

00:49:44.860 | "You have an ability to teach."

00:49:46.700 | He said, "Knowledge means nothing."

00:49:49.020 | He said, "See these Britannica?"

00:49:51.540 | He had Britannica encyclopedias,

00:49:55.020 | the whole set in our library.

00:49:57.940 | He said, "You see these?"

00:49:59.300 | Yeah, I see 'em.

00:50:00.700 | "All the knowledge of the world," whatever,

00:50:02.880 | "is in these."

00:50:04.060 | All right.

00:50:05.020 | "Means nothing if you don't have somebody

00:50:07.900 | "to convey it to people.

00:50:10.300 | "Otherwise it just sits on a bookshelf and looks good."

00:50:12.980 | He goes, "You have the ability

00:50:14.620 | "to convey knowledge to people.

00:50:16.060 | "You're a teacher.

00:50:17.220 | "You were born to be a teacher.

00:50:19.260 | "You'd lessen yourself by only being a champion fighter

00:50:22.620 | "because you'd only take care of one person.

00:50:24.940 | "You could take care of all kinds of people

00:50:27.540 | "and you could do this and you could do that

00:50:29.460 | "and you could do this."

00:50:30.380 | So we go on this venture.

00:50:31.780 | Took a minute 'cause I didn't believe him at first,

00:50:34.900 | but finally we, I am.

00:50:37.220 | I'm there.

00:50:38.060 | I'm training fighters.

00:50:39.140 | And then he gets me to buy in.

00:50:44.100 | And I was a teacher and I start teaching these kids

00:50:49.340 | and there's no one in the gym, it's dead.

00:50:51.340 | And all of a sudden there's 10 kids,

00:50:52.860 | 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45.

00:50:56.820 | Catskill Boxing Club, which was never there.

00:51:00.220 | Now it's there.

00:51:01.420 | And I'm training fighters.

00:51:02.940 | I'm taking them down to South Bronx to get experience.

00:51:05.260 | One of his former fighters, Nelson Cuevas,

00:51:07.460 | down to South Bronx.

00:51:08.540 | I'm taking them down there to get smokers,

00:51:10.180 | to get fights when they're ready.

00:51:11.300 | After I teach, I'm wearing out dungarees.

00:51:13.460 | I'm getting holes in my dungarees.

00:51:14.740 | I was fashionable before it was fashionable

00:51:17.260 | to have holes in my dungarees.

00:51:18.980 | I could have made a lot of money with that

00:51:20.900 | because I was on my knees with these little kids,

00:51:23.060 | nine years old, 10 years old, eight years old,

00:51:26.180 | 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, all these kids.

00:51:30.020 | And I'm teaching them and I'm building a gym.

00:51:32.500 | And Cuzz only came once a week

00:51:34.380 | because he was semi-retired, you know.

00:51:36.620 | And when he would come once a week,

00:51:38.980 | he knew he couldn't give me money,

00:51:40.580 | but he gave me more than money.

00:51:42.060 | He gave me praise.

00:51:43.220 | And he said, "Look what Atlas is doing.

00:51:47.300 | He's creating champions."

00:51:49.660 | And I was like, "Whoa, yeah, wow, I'm doing good."

00:51:54.260 | And then all of a sudden, after four years of that,

00:51:57.940 | because I was up there seven years, eight years,

00:51:59.900 | after about three and a half, four years of that,

00:52:03.500 | we get a phone call that they got this kid in prison

00:52:06.260 | in Tryon Prison from one of the guys that knew Cuzz,

00:52:10.340 | Matt Baranski, and there's a correctional officer

00:52:15.340 | named Bobby Stewart, who used to box.

00:52:18.180 | And Cuzz had helped him out a little bit,

00:52:20.900 | and they knew we had this gym now

00:52:24.220 | that was really starting to become something

00:52:26.580 | because we were winning tournaments and everything else.

00:52:29.100 | They're going, "We got this kid, Mike Tyson.

00:52:31.500 | He's 12 years old, he's 190 pounds, and he's a mess."

00:52:35.780 | But Bobby Stewart got involved with him,

00:52:38.420 | you know, the former fighter,

00:52:40.220 | and he's taken a liking to it.

00:52:42.220 | And now where he didn't behave at all,

00:52:44.300 | and he didn't listen to anyone, now he's listening

00:52:46.700 | because Bobby's got a carrot,

00:52:48.060 | and the carrot is his teacher boxing.

00:52:50.140 | And now he's at the point now

00:52:52.540 | where we want you to take a look, you and Teddy.

00:52:55.740 | All right, bring him down.

00:52:57.060 | What did you think when you first saw Mike Tyson?

00:53:00.060 | - Well, I wanted to see his birth certificate

00:53:02.980 | because he's 190 pounds, 12 years old, and all solid.

00:53:06.740 | - Yeah.

00:53:08.340 | - You know, really?

00:53:09.340 | But yeah.

00:53:10.180 | - Just physically, just as a physical specimen.

00:53:12.660 | - Yeah, and listen, Cuzz was right, I was a teacher.

00:53:17.660 | He was right, and he was testing me even that day.

00:53:23.060 | He said, "What do you think?"

00:53:24.300 | So I said, "Well, we ain't gonna know nothing in the bag.

00:53:26.700 | "Who the freak cares about that?"

00:53:27.860 | He knocked the bag down.

00:53:29.820 | We gotta put him in, we got no one to put him in that way.

00:53:33.540 | They didn't have anyone that way.

00:53:35.140 | We gotta test him, everyone's gotta be tested.

00:53:37.900 | And so you gotta put him in, responsibly.

00:53:41.260 | But let's put him in, just responsibly.

00:53:43.220 | But let's put him in with Bobby Stewart,

00:53:44.700 | former pro fighter, had 14 pro fights.

00:53:47.140 | Smaller than Tyson, when he was fighting, he was 175.

00:53:51.340 | But still, he's 28 years old, Tyson's 12, come on.

00:53:54.740 | And he'll work with him, right?

00:53:57.700 | So we do, we put him in.

00:53:59.100 | Tyson, he recognized the moment.

00:54:01.420 | He understood this was an audition.

00:54:03.540 | This was a chance, this was that TV show, Change Your Life.

00:54:08.540 | And he understood that if he passed the audition,

00:54:13.020 | he could possibly change his life.

00:54:14.940 | He wasn't sure what, how could he be sure what exactly,

00:54:18.140 | but it was better than what he had.

00:54:20.260 | And so he was on audition, so he wanted,

00:54:23.580 | he innately understood what we would wanna see.

00:54:27.780 | Ferociousness, toughness, character, desire,

00:54:32.780 | and of course, ability.

00:54:35.660 | Well, we saw the ability, power, speed,

00:54:38.700 | but it was unbridled, it was untaught, it was raw.

00:54:43.060 | He didn't know really much at all, at all.

00:54:47.340 | But we saw that.

00:54:50.140 | But he wanted to show more.

00:54:51.620 | He knew that wasn't enough.

00:54:52.820 | Again, innate intelligence.

00:54:55.140 | He had to show desire, he had to show toughness.

00:54:59.500 | And so I was being responsible.

00:55:02.300 | After two rounds, that's enough.

00:55:03.740 | Normally, I don't put a guy into boxing

00:55:05.460 | to maybe four months, five months, six months,

00:55:07.420 | eight months, 10 months.

00:55:08.340 | It depends what it takes to learn on the floor

00:55:10.700 | before it's responsible to put him in the ring

00:55:12.980 | to actually take on incoming real live shells

00:55:17.980 | instead of blanks.

00:55:20.260 | And so normally, I wouldn't have him in.

00:55:23.980 | And I knew after today, he wouldn't be in the ring again

00:55:26.260 | if I trained him.

00:55:27.100 | I would teach him first,

00:55:28.140 | and then he'd get back in in a few months.

00:55:30.380 | But for this day, it was the only way...

00:55:32.940 | It's kind of like, I used to make this announcement,

00:55:37.660 | Cus loved it.

00:55:38.580 | He said, "What's training a fighter?

00:55:40.340 | "What do you look for in training a fighter, Teddy?"

00:55:42.900 | You know, he asked me this ridiculous question

00:55:44.820 | just to test me.

00:55:46.100 | And I say, "It's like going to Macy's."

00:55:48.300 | Oh, he loved it.

00:55:49.500 | I said, "It's like going to Macy's window at Christmas."

00:55:52.820 | He goes, "What do you mean, Macy's window?"

00:55:54.220 | You know, Cus was like, boom, boom, boom.

00:55:56.340 | So, "What do you mean, Macy's window?"

00:55:57.460 | "Oh, you go to Macy's window,

00:55:58.580 | "and they got the window with everything you wanna see,

00:56:00.460 | "everything in there, and it looks great, everything."

00:56:03.700 | And, "Yeah, and then what?"

00:56:05.500 | "Well, then you ask what's in the warehouse,

00:56:08.420 | "and they tell you nothing."

00:56:09.820 | And Cus says, "That's it, that's a trainer."

00:56:15.780 | And I wanted to see what was in the warehouse,

00:56:18.100 | because I saw what was in Macy's window.

00:56:21.060 | I saw the power, I saw the speed.

00:56:22.460 | So, he goes two rounds, and he gets a bloody nose.

00:56:25.460 | Here's the weird thing, not weird, very telling.

00:56:28.940 | We knew what we were doing.

00:56:30.100 | Not bragging, but we knew what we were doing,

00:56:31.780 | because he got a bloody nose because he got hit.

00:56:34.860 | After that bloody nose,

00:56:37.100 | he never got another bloody nose.

00:56:38.700 | You know why he didn't get hit?

00:56:40.500 | Because he learned.

00:56:41.580 | He was still strong, but he was smart enough.

00:56:44.540 | Anyway, he goes two rounds, and I'm being responsible,

00:56:48.660 | because if he goes more, it's not responsible.

00:56:50.900 | I saw what I needed to see.

00:56:52.820 | I saw speed, I saw power, I saw athleticism.

00:56:55.900 | And I saw, I didn't believe him.

00:56:57.900 | I thought he was lying to me, I'm just telling you.

00:57:00.260 | I thought he was lying, trying to act tough

00:57:02.100 | when he wasn't really feeling tough.

00:57:03.540 | It didn't matter.

00:57:04.740 | Cus questioned me on it afterwards.

00:57:06.260 | "What did you see?"

00:57:07.620 | And when I said, he goes, "Young master!"

00:57:09.900 | You know, again, he wasn't paying me money.

00:57:12.380 | So, he had to give me something, right?

00:57:13.900 | And that was better than, that was currency.

00:57:16.580 | "Young master!"

00:57:17.420 | I'm the young master, whoa.

00:57:19.020 | You know, "Young master!"

00:57:20.100 | You know what I mean?

00:57:21.180 | Like, I felt like that guy, Kung Fu, you know?

00:57:23.700 | Like in the movie, like Kung Fu.

00:57:25.220 | Grasshopper, when you're ready,

00:57:26.420 | when you can take this out of my hand, you can leave.

00:57:28.740 | And-- - That's powerful.

00:57:29.940 | - Yeah, it was.

00:57:31.340 | It worked.

00:57:32.700 | Cus knew how to work me.

00:57:34.540 | And he did, and it worked.

00:57:36.900 | And so, but you know what?

00:57:39.980 | I didn't mind being worked.

00:57:42.100 | I kind of knew I was being shuffled a little bit.

00:57:45.580 | - Well, you're making it sound a little bit negative,

00:57:48.500 | but it's also extremely positive.

00:57:50.580 | That's a teacher instilling wisdom into you

00:57:54.020 | that you carried forward and impacted a lot of people.

00:57:56.700 | - Yeah, Cus got the job done, but he did it his way.

00:58:00.020 | And he did it for a lot of, a myriad of reasons.

00:58:03.700 | But at the end of the day, it was all good.

00:58:05.860 | And I just had to understand that eventually, later on.

00:58:11.180 | - And you do the same.

00:58:12.020 | You do things your way and carry some of him in you,

00:58:14.980 | some of your father in you.

00:58:15.980 | - Yeah, that day, you know, that day was funny

00:58:19.940 | because when Cus said, "What did you see, Teddy?"

00:58:23.180 | When him, after two rounds, I got up on the ring.

00:58:26.260 | I knew I was gonna train him.

00:58:27.820 | Obviously, we weren't gonna say no.

00:58:30.180 | And he still had about four months to serve

00:58:32.900 | and we were gonna work it out.

00:58:34.300 | - Yeah.

00:58:35.140 | - And when I got up on the ring apron,

00:58:38.900 | that's my job, I'm the boss.

00:58:40.740 | You know, people later on in life called me a dictator.

00:58:43.740 | You know what they said?

00:58:44.580 | Yeah, you're right.

00:58:45.700 | I didn't deny it.

00:58:46.540 | People thought, "You mean I'm right?"

00:58:48.900 | Yeah, I'm a dictator.

00:58:50.100 | I'm a trainer.

00:58:50.940 | I'm the boss.

00:58:52.060 | I'm in charge.

00:58:53.180 | If I, you wouldn't be here if I wasn't.

00:58:55.260 | What the frick you need me for

00:58:56.420 | if I'm not frickin' in charge, you idiot?

00:58:59.340 | Yeah, yeah, damn right.

00:59:01.260 | Well, what do you think, it's a shared responsibility?

00:59:04.260 | No, it's my responsibility.

00:59:05.860 | That's why you're here.

00:59:06.980 | Yeah, I am in charge.

00:59:09.180 | And you shouldn't be here if you don't understand that.

00:59:11.740 | So I get up there and I know that I'm gonna be training 'em.

00:59:15.020 | I gotta show 'em who the boss is.

00:59:16.940 | You know, I'm being really frank about this.

00:59:19.420 | So I get up there and I say, "That's it, out."

00:59:21.980 | No, no!

00:59:24.540 | You know, this is Tyson.

00:59:25.380 | No, let me go, I wanna do another round.

00:59:27.260 | I wanna do another one, I wanna.

00:59:29.580 | I said, "Out."

00:59:30.620 | Did you hear what I said?

00:59:32.060 | Because I knew that, you know, he was gonna test me.

00:59:34.260 | He was testing me.

00:59:35.220 | I said, "Get out."

00:59:38.380 | And then he got out.

00:59:39.620 | - But were you impressed with the fact

00:59:40.820 | that he wanted to keep going or not?

00:59:42.380 | - Yes, and I recognized what it really was.

00:59:45.260 | So Cus asked me, "What was that?"

00:59:47.340 | Cus wanted to know what the young master saw.

00:59:49.300 | So Cus said, "What was that?"

00:59:50.740 | I said, "It was an act."

00:59:56.420 | He goes, "You saw that?

00:59:58.260 | "Did he really wanna go?"

01:00:00.820 | I said, "No."

01:00:01.940 | I said, "He didn't really wanna go,

01:00:03.260 | "but he knew that we want him to go

01:00:06.100 | "and he made himself ready to go in order to satisfy,

01:00:09.900 | "and that's just as good."

01:00:11.340 | And Cus said, "Damn right, it's just as good."

01:00:13.820 | All that matters was not how he got there,

01:00:18.820 | but that he got there.

01:00:20.860 | That's all that matters, that he got there,

01:00:23.060 | that he got to the place to act like a fighter,

01:00:25.460 | to do what we want him to do, to be ready to persevere,

01:00:29.740 | to go beyond the comfort level, to do another round.

01:00:33.620 | He didn't want to, damn right he didn't want to,

01:00:36.340 | but he knew we want him to,

01:00:38.500 | and he knew in order to pass the test, he had to do it.

01:00:43.220 | And he said, "You're right."

01:00:45.940 | He goes, "Now it's gonna be your job to teach him,

01:00:49.780 | "to make him a fighter that don't get bloody noses,

01:00:53.020 | "that don't get hit, and will get to that place

01:00:56.320 | "without being coerced to get there,

01:01:00.100 | "to get to that place on his own,

01:01:03.020 | "instead of using the things that he had to use

01:01:07.440 | "to get to that place today.

01:01:09.460 | "Those things are not going to be available one day."

01:01:13.380 | When you, and listen to this,

01:01:14.620 | you talk about a man being prophetic,

01:01:16.660 | 'cause it's pretty good.

01:01:18.100 | You talk about a man being on the job, on the money.

01:01:21.380 | Lex, he says, "How do you think he finishes the sentence?"

01:01:24.540 | He goes, "Because someday, because you know,

01:01:27.360 | "you're gonna have to make sure that he learns these things,

01:01:29.960 | "because you know, he'll be your first heavyweight champ."

01:01:32.860 | What did you just say?

01:01:36.680 | He's 12 years old.

01:01:37.860 | He's been arrested 30 times.

01:01:41.780 | He's getting out of jail, out of juvenile detention,

01:01:46.420 | try on, he's a mess in a lot of ways.

01:01:51.420 | There's a lot of things we find out later,

01:01:53.200 | a lot of problems, weaknesses.

01:01:55.400 | He goes, "And that's part of your job.

01:01:58.780 | "That'll be part of your job."

01:02:00.560 | But he really said that.

01:02:02.840 | And then he turned to him, he goes,

01:02:04.880 | "You want to come live with us, young man?

01:02:07.440 | "You want to be a fighter?"

01:02:09.520 | Yes, even that, 'cause he said to me later,

01:02:11.760 | "What do you think about that?"

01:02:12.720 | I said, "It ain't gonna be--"

01:02:14.320 | - The way he said yes.

01:02:15.320 | - Yeah, the way he said yes.

01:02:16.460 | "Yes, sir."

01:02:18.040 | He said, "What do you think about that?"

01:02:19.600 | And we're talking, I said,

01:02:21.840 | "It ain't gonna be that polite

01:02:24.320 | "in a little while down the road."

01:02:26.600 | Again, he knew that that's what he felt

01:02:28.820 | that he needed to project himself as,

01:02:31.660 | to present himself as, to get to where he wanted to get to.

01:02:35.460 | He goes, "Yeah, yeah, yeah."

01:02:38.700 | - Did you see what Cuss was seeing

01:02:39.940 | in terms of the heavyweight champion of the world?

01:02:42.020 | - No, again, the easiest answer would be yes.

01:02:44.820 | Teddy's just, Teddy Ellis, genius, wow, wow.

01:02:48.020 | Teddy's, wow.

01:02:49.620 | No, no, no, no.

01:02:51.500 | But again, it was my job.

01:02:54.500 | And I just, my job, it was simple, simpler than Cuss's.

01:02:59.500 | Cuss knew too much.

01:03:00.780 | I knew nothing.

01:03:01.620 | I just knew rudiments of boxing.

01:03:03.620 | I knew what it took to be a fighter

01:03:06.020 | and how to execute it, the steps of executing it.

01:03:10.740 | So I took those steps.

01:03:12.260 | The rest of it, you get blurred by those other things.

01:03:15.260 | I wasn't blurred by those other things.

01:03:17.180 | It was just, get 'em in the gym,

01:03:19.960 | make 'em mentally stronger, make 'em face things,

01:03:23.780 | and teach 'em how to slip punches,

01:03:26.100 | and create holes, and fill those frickin' holes

01:03:29.740 | with devastating punches, this is Cuss.

01:03:32.580 | And what are you gonna do?

01:03:34.220 | I'm gonna teach 'em to fill holes

01:03:35.940 | and fill 'em with punches with bad intentions.

01:03:39.460 | And that became the moniker.

01:03:42.060 | And Tyson would say that.

01:03:43.580 | I'm throwing punches with bad intentions.

01:03:45.680 | Yes, you are.

01:03:46.520 | - How do you make it mentally tougher?

01:03:50.180 | So that part of the job.

01:03:52.300 | You said don't get a bloody nose,

01:03:53.980 | but the part of the job where it makes it mentally tougher,

01:03:56.020 | how do you do that?

01:03:57.280 | - Most important part of the job, to make 'em face things.

01:04:01.060 | Make 'em face where he's lying to himself

01:04:04.020 | where he's submitting.

01:04:05.380 | We start this conversation with submission.

01:04:08.220 | Submit less, submit less, submit less every day.

01:04:12.220 | Submit less.

01:04:13.580 | 'Cause I only come to the gym once in a while.

01:04:15.300 | And if I had him sparring, he would come

01:04:16.900 | because that was his project, that was the heavyweight.

01:04:20.340 | Now he came, you know, put my life in 'cause.

01:04:22.740 | 'Cause I had life.

01:04:23.580 | He was losing a little life,

01:04:25.220 | but that made the light bulb bright again.

01:04:27.500 | It did.

01:04:28.340 | And it was great to see, I felt proud of that.

01:04:30.300 | I felt connected to that.

01:04:31.740 | And that's why when it all went bad

01:04:35.140 | and 'cause to decide that the only side he could take,

01:04:38.620 | the side of the next heavyweight champ of the world.

01:04:41.180 | But he left me, his partner, the young master.

01:04:46.180 | And of the second time I'd get betrayed.

01:04:50.260 | And I'm like, for a while,

01:04:55.100 | I thought everything Cus taught me, said to me was a lie.

01:04:58.580 | I didn't want to be any part of it anymore.

01:05:01.140 | Until I got a little more mature

01:05:02.580 | and I got a little past that where I was able to understand.

01:05:07.580 | I was able to understand that just because so many people

01:05:17.780 | just because so many that you perceived as great

01:05:22.780 | in every area is you find to be weak in certain areas.

01:05:26.660 | Doesn't mean that they can't still be what they want to you.

01:05:33.500 | It's something that,

01:05:37.260 | it's something that can be understood or forgiven.

01:05:43.140 | It's hard.

01:05:45.460 | It's hard.

01:05:47.020 | To get to that place and forgive somebody

01:05:48.780 | in that kind of way that I felt betrayed.

01:05:51.780 | Because Cus told me the most important thing was loyalty.

01:05:54.940 | Cus told me he loved me because I was loyal.

01:05:56.820 | Cus told people that the reason that he went to court

01:06:01.500 | was because I didn't give up anybody,

01:06:04.020 | even though it meant putting me in a risk

01:06:05.860 | of going to jail for 10 years.

01:06:08.020 | And Cus felt that he admired those traits.

01:06:12.980 | And so I assumed that he would show the same traits.

01:06:17.980 | And he took a deal.

01:06:21.020 | He took a deal.

01:06:22.900 | He took a deal.

01:06:23.740 | He signed the papers that those so-called feds of mine signed.

01:06:28.180 | He took a deal to have the future heavyweight champions

01:06:34.380 | turned out and to let me go.

01:06:42.580 | To sign the deal, to let me take the weight.

01:06:47.580 | - For people who don't know,

01:06:50.140 | Mike was inappropriate with a young girl

01:06:54.220 | and you pulled a gun on him.

01:06:55.620 | I don't know if there's deeper things

01:06:58.940 | to say about that situation.

01:07:00.540 | - No.

01:07:01.460 | - But why do you think Cus made the decision

01:07:05.180 | to cut you off from both Mike Tyson and from Cus D'Amato?

01:07:09.340 | Like to break that?

01:07:11.180 | When he valued loyalty so much.

01:07:12.580 | - I served my purpose.

01:07:14.340 | I got him to where he needed to get.

01:07:16.740 | Brought life back in the gym.

01:07:21.140 | If I wasn't in the gym at that particular time,

01:07:23.220 | Tyson never would have been in the gym.

01:07:25.100 | There would have been no gym to bring him to.

01:07:27.260 | When they called up and made that phone call

01:07:28.980 | to bring him to the gym, there would have been no activity.

01:07:31.420 | There would have been no boxing program.

01:07:32.980 | There would have been no trainer training him 24/7

01:07:37.100 | the way I was, where Cus wasn't capable of doing that

01:07:39.500 | at that point in his life.

01:07:41.300 | But then again, it's not poor Teddy.

01:07:44.380 | I get the benefit of a career.

01:07:45.740 | I get the benefit of knowledge.

01:07:47.020 | I get the benefit of a life.

01:07:48.700 | I get the benefit of learning,

01:07:51.100 | of becoming hopefully a better person.

01:07:53.680 | I get the benefit of being betrayed again.

01:07:57.740 | But--

01:07:59.740 | - That's a hell of a statement right there.

01:08:02.140 | I don't know what the benefit of that is.

01:08:04.220 | - You can learn to forgive weakness.

01:08:07.960 | You know, when you realize how easy it is to be weak,

01:08:12.960 | and when you realize that, somebody asked me,

01:08:25.400 | how did you get to the point where you could forgive?

01:08:29.080 | Right, it's a pretty good question, pretty simple,

01:08:30.920 | pretty basic, pretty important, right?

01:08:33.760 | And I didn't understand, I understood,

01:08:37.240 | but I did understand immediately for me.

01:08:40.320 | I said, how could I not forgive somebody?

01:08:45.460 | It becomes easier to learn how to forgive

01:08:49.480 | when you're still trying to forgive yourself,

01:08:53.940 | when you're still in the process of trying

01:08:58.920 | to forgive yourself for your own inherent weaknesses

01:09:03.920 | and betrayals of people like my father.

01:09:08.080 | And different ways that we forget very easily

01:09:10.720 | because it's handy and it's a way of surviving.

01:09:14.800 | It's a lot easier to figure it out,

01:09:19.360 | rationalize it, to find forgiveness

01:09:24.200 | when you realize that you still haven't figured out

01:09:28.040 | completely how to forgive yourself.

01:09:29.820 | I'm still trying to figure that out.

01:09:34.840 | And so that helped me figure out how to forgive Cus,

01:09:39.840 | because to figure out how to forgive me,

01:09:45.480 | I had to understood why I did these things,

01:09:47.920 | where the weaknesses came from,

01:09:49.780 | where the selfishness came from,

01:09:51.420 | where the convenience came from, that they really existed.

01:09:55.520 | But they didn't exist for malice,

01:09:58.020 | they existed for me not being prepared

01:10:03.240 | to understand that I could be stronger,

01:10:06.200 | to wanna be stronger.

01:10:10.280 | And then I looked at Cus, he wanted to be stronger,

01:10:13.840 | but he got to a point in life where he had been strong

01:10:16.940 | for a lot of his life.

01:10:18.560 | He was strong with me, he was strong

01:10:20.160 | with a lot of things in his life.

01:10:21.960 | And does everyone deserve a pass in life

01:10:24.760 | where he got to a place where everything was in one,

01:10:31.200 | everything was in one basket, the basket of boxing.

01:10:35.800 | He once told me that he never got married

01:10:38.280 | because it would have been selfish to a woman

01:10:41.720 | to have gotten married when his whole life was boxing,

01:10:44.660 | that he couldn't give to a kid, he couldn't give to her.

01:10:47.400 | And then I thought about it, he had no money really,

01:10:52.240 | and Jim Jacobs and Bill Caden took care of the bills,

01:10:56.000 | so he didn't really need money that way.

01:10:58.160 | But what was the payoff for that kind of life,

01:11:02.300 | that kind of commitment, that kind of sacrifice?

01:11:05.880 | Really, what was the payoff?

01:11:07.780 | The payoff was to have champions,

01:11:11.920 | to have a champion that would keep your name alive.

01:11:16.020 | That word legacy, what does it mean?

01:11:20.440 | Sometimes it's just a word, sometimes it's more than a word.

01:11:25.200 | It's a reprieve, it's a pension plan.

01:11:30.200 | It's being given a pension on your way out

01:11:34.680 | for the rest of your life, for your life,

01:11:37.040 | wherever you're going, you're going to wherever you're going

01:11:40.260 | for eternity, it's the only thing that you take with you

01:11:45.260 | is what you left behind.

01:11:47.560 | And for Cuss, it was all about leaving behind a mark,

01:11:52.560 | a mark of champion.

01:11:54.600 | Yeah, it was attached to ego, we all have it.

01:11:57.320 | Yeah, it was attached to some selfishness and all,

01:12:00.760 | but yeah, it was also attached

01:12:02.600 | to wanting to leave something great behind,

01:12:07.700 | to know that you were part of it,

01:12:10.380 | that you existed for a reason,

01:12:12.620 | that you sacrificed for a reason.

01:12:16.240 | And all that freaking pain I brought my father,

01:12:20.060 | I was searching for something.

01:12:23.280 | Yeah, I made it into a righteous search.

01:12:25.800 | I made it into, I did.

01:12:27.120 | And I made it into, it was okay because it was righteous.

01:12:31.480 | But it still did damage.

01:12:33.340 | It still did damage, it still hurt people.

01:12:37.080 | It still betrayed my father's trust.

01:12:39.360 | And Cuss betrayed mine, but he didn't do it maliciously.

01:12:45.840 | He did it out of, again,

01:12:51.520 | my father came home, this is how I'm gonna connect it.

01:12:56.520 | My father came home from work one night,

01:13:01.200 | 12 o'clock and I was waiting out.

01:13:02.640 | And like I said, I was over nine, 10 years old.

01:13:05.000 | And he got mad at me.

01:13:05.840 | He goes, "Go to bed, what are you doing up?"

01:13:07.120 | I said, "I'm waiting for you, waiting for you."

01:13:10.080 | And he said, "Well, go to bed."

01:13:14.920 | I said, "No, what were you doing?"

01:13:18.960 | He said, "I was at the hospital."

01:13:20.520 | "You were there, why were you there so late?"

01:13:23.320 | He answered me.

01:13:26.520 | He said, "There was a patient, it was a sick patient."

01:13:29.280 | I said, "Oh, he must be better now

01:13:32.320 | "because you're his doctor."

01:13:33.720 | Because my father could fix anything.

01:13:36.480 | My father, nothing got in the way of the truth, nothing.

01:13:41.720 | Nothing, even blown his son's bubble.

01:13:44.600 | Matter of factly, he said to me,

01:13:49.960 | "No, he's not gonna get better, he's gonna die."

01:13:52.480 | So as a nine-year-old kid, you know, you're a kid,

01:14:00.080 | you're selfish, you know, not in a bad way,

01:14:02.200 | but you know, you want what you want.

01:14:03.940 | And I said, I said two things.

01:14:08.940 | First, I said, "How, you're his doctor, how?"

01:14:13.880 | I mean, it can't be.

01:14:15.320 | And then I said, I just said it almost angry.

01:14:19.480 | "Then why were you there?"

01:14:20.400 | Like, "You should have been here with me."

01:14:22.040 | - Yeah.

01:14:23.680 | - And you know what he said to me?

01:14:25.660 | "Because you don't give up on life, go to bed."

01:14:29.560 | - Don't give up on life.

01:14:33.120 | - And that's, I finally connected the dots.

01:14:37.480 | This idiot that didn't graduate high school,

01:14:42.520 | I finally connected the dots.

01:14:45.800 | I was asking Cus to give up on life.

01:14:47.880 | You know, you don't give up on life,

01:14:52.480 | you don't give up on aspirations of life.

01:14:54.640 | Life is all forms of life.

01:14:57.160 | Doesn't have to be a physical form of it.

01:14:59.600 | It's life, it's having a reason to be alive.

01:15:01.980 | It's having a reason to have tomorrow.

01:15:06.320 | And Cus's only reason to have tomorrow

01:15:09.280 | was to have another heavyweight champ.

01:15:11.040 | And Teddy Atlas, even though we were together

01:15:13.560 | all those years, and we were partners,

01:15:15.640 | and we trained together, and we were,

01:15:17.800 | we were, you know, the only thing we didn't do

01:15:20.960 | was what they did in the Indian movies,

01:15:22.920 | where they cut the finger and they became blood brothers.

01:15:25.800 | That's the only thing we didn't do.

01:15:27.200 | And I felt like we did that without cutting.

01:15:31.320 | And now here we are, and he freaking betrayed me.

01:15:38.040 | And then all of a sudden I connected the dots.

01:15:40.040 | I was like, he didn't betray me in that cold sense.

01:15:45.040 | He didn't give up on life.

01:15:51.480 | - Years later, Mike Tyson apologized to you.

01:15:56.520 | What's meaningful to you about that?

01:16:01.500 | How does that fit the story?

01:16:04.080 | - I wanna be the great, gracious guy right now,

01:16:06.800 | say, oh, I'm so human that, you know,

01:16:11.800 | a man's man enough to say, sorry, that's it, we're good.

01:16:17.080 | I wanna be, really, that's the best presentation

01:16:22.080 | of Teddy Atlas I could put out there.

01:16:23.640 | He's a good guy.

01:16:24.720 | He forgives, he's a good guy.

01:16:26.800 | He's a stand-up guy, and he's a good guy.

01:16:30.880 | I'm not sure.

01:16:34.920 | If he truly did it for himself,

01:16:37.920 | that he really did it because he felt that it was true.

01:16:42.920 | But if he's persuaded by other things,

01:16:53.880 | he was in the middle, I know I'm taking it too deep,

01:16:56.080 | I know it, but what am I gonna do?

01:16:58.680 | He was in the middle of 12 steps with the, you know,

01:17:01.360 | getting out of drugs, alcohol, 12 steps,

01:17:03.360 | which is a commemorable thing, really, it is.

01:17:06.840 | And he's taking the steps, and part of the steps

01:17:09.000 | was to admit or to apologize

01:17:10.880 | to all people you offended in life.

01:17:13.360 | Okay, but are you doing it for the 12 steps,

01:17:18.360 | or are you doing it because you really, truly

01:17:23.080 | have come to terms with believing what you did

01:17:28.720 | was that hurtful to me, and that it matters to you

01:17:32.300 | that it was that hurtful to me,

01:17:33.920 | and that you were wrong in doing it?

01:17:35.520 | Did you do it for, and I know that's deep,

01:17:37.260 | I know that I'm a freaking idiot,

01:17:38.860 | you're a Teddy freaking, you should be better than that.

01:17:45.120 | He's better than you.

01:17:46.920 | Yeah, maybe he is better than me.

01:17:48.120 | Maybe he is, really, seriously, maybe he is.

01:17:50.920 | And I took it, he put his hand, I took it,

01:17:54.400 | we hugged, he said, "I love you."

01:17:58.040 | Yeah, yeah, but I wanna believe.

01:18:02.440 | But what did Cuss tell me?

01:18:07.040 | No matter what a man says, it's what he does in the end

01:18:09.980 | that he intended to do all along.

01:18:12.380 | So to this day, today, was it really genuine,

01:18:16.620 | or was it reflexive of that moment for him

01:18:20.460 | to get what he needed for that step?

01:18:24.020 | Or was it truly for what I needed?

01:18:29.020 | To really, that he really cared that what he did to me

01:18:34.220 | caused me to do what I did?

01:18:37.040 | Because I did something that was pretty damn bad to him too.

01:18:40.880 | Is he able to deal with that,

01:18:46.360 | and put that where it has to be put?

01:18:47.960 | Is he able to put that, or is it just,

01:18:51.520 | he did something he had to do,

01:18:52.920 | and maybe he's sorry he did it?

01:18:54.900 | Look, I appreciate it that he,

01:19:01.160 | I would've rather been in a private place.

01:19:05.000 | - Yeah, so what people don't know,

01:19:06.140 | you were in the middle of commentating a fight,

01:19:08.260 | and he walked up from behind you,

01:19:09.960 | and he said he was sorry, he shook your hand,

01:19:13.180 | gave you a hug, I didn't know he said, "I love you."

01:19:15.740 | - Yeah, he's emotional.

01:19:17.820 | I get emotional a little bit too.

01:19:19.580 | But he's emotional, and he can be,

01:19:23.220 | I can see why people have a fascination

01:19:25.420 | and a love affair with him right now.

01:19:27.740 | 'Cause he was the meteor that went across the sky,

01:19:32.740 | that is, if they didn't see it,

01:19:38.980 | their parents told them about it.

01:19:40.180 | There was a meteor that came across the sky one day,

01:19:42.460 | and the meteor's walking around in a room now,

01:19:45.460 | and that's the meteorite, and it actually landed here,

01:19:48.500 | and that's it right there.

01:19:50.240 | And now he's come a long way, and now he's more human,

01:19:55.240 | and he's lovable, and compassionate,

01:20:00.700 | and he cries, and I get the fascination,

01:20:04.860 | I get the love affair, I get it.

01:20:07.020 | Because we're inherently, we're people that wanna forgive.

01:20:09.980 | We're people that, we wanna be good,

01:20:12.580 | and part of being good is to forgive people,

01:20:14.940 | and to show compassion to people.

01:20:17.460 | And so, and when somebody's been damaged,

01:20:21.920 | to acknowledge they've been damaged,

01:20:25.820 | to acknowledge that you know they've been damaged,

01:20:28.300 | and you care about them being damaged.

01:20:30.020 | And how do you show care?

01:20:31.780 | Through admiration.

01:20:32.900 | In some ways, almost through adulation.

01:20:37.140 | And he's getting adulation from people,

01:20:39.140 | which is to an incredible level.

01:20:43.100 | And it's a phenomena, but I get it.

01:20:47.020 | I understand it.

01:20:48.540 | And I don't know if he gets it.

01:20:52.220 | I don't know if underneath all of this,

01:20:54.540 | he's a complex guy, he's a sensitive guy.

01:20:57.620 | I don't know, and I am too.

01:20:59.060 | - One complex guy talking about another complex guy.

01:21:03.900 | - I don't know if underneath it all,

01:21:05.980 | where he's really, truly at,

01:21:08.660 | as far as that day that he said that to me.

01:21:12.680 | - Is there part of you that's sorry to Mike?

01:21:15.260 | For pulling the gun on him?

01:21:17.480 | - Yeah, and that's, listen, that's fair.

01:21:19.740 | I know dimensions of human nature too well

01:21:24.340 | to not know that he still has to have certain,

01:21:28.500 | because I have those strong feelings.

01:21:30.680 | What, it's not fair for him to have them?

01:21:33.540 | Damn right it's fair.

01:21:34.640 | Now, he could look at it,

01:21:38.020 | if he was to be held to his word that night,

01:21:41.100 | that he just acknowledges that what happened,

01:21:44.260 | he deserved because of what he,

01:21:46.820 | the position he put me in,

01:21:48.500 | and he put himself in, what he did.

01:21:51.080 | And I wouldn't change nothing, you know?

01:21:54.660 | - Still, you don't regret pulling the gun on him.

01:21:58.260 | - I regret that I had to.

01:22:00.280 | Yeah, I regret very much that I had to,

01:22:04.700 | that I regret very much.

01:22:06.860 | - He crossed the line.

01:22:08.220 | - I hated him for putting me in that position.

01:22:11.740 | That, you know, how dare he think

01:22:14.940 | that somebody's feelings are that trivial?

01:22:17.920 | That the way I would feel about myself

01:22:20.900 | and the way the girl would feel about herself,

01:22:23.020 | that was 11 years old at the time,

01:22:24.700 | how she would feel about herself.

01:22:27.260 | How dare he think it's that trivial that, you know,

01:22:30.700 | that I shouldn't be ready to freaking,

01:22:33.800 | to both die and kill for that.

01:22:36.420 | - Why didn't Custom Otto see it in a deeper way

01:22:40.780 | and talk through it?

01:22:42.540 | - The word came back to me,

01:22:44.900 | but of course, what does it mean?

01:22:46.540 | But the word came back to me that Cust said you were right,

01:22:51.380 | but if he took the side of Teddy,

01:22:54.500 | he would destroy potentially a great fighter.

01:22:59.340 | - Why do you think that, okay,

01:23:01.220 | if you were to try to understand the point he was making,

01:23:04.060 | why is that true?

01:23:05.700 | Isn't the part of greatness that you said

01:23:08.540 | is building the character of knowing what is right?

01:23:11.820 | - Cust was afraid to go there

01:23:13.900 | where he used to not be afraid

01:23:16.340 | because it's kind of like, you're never afraid of going up.

01:23:20.980 | And I get it.

01:23:22.740 | You know, when I train a fighter now,

01:23:24.140 | if I come out of retirement, I train a fighter now,

01:23:26.660 | I feel in camp, like I feel like I'm on death row every day,

01:23:31.660 | that every day I try to retrace my memory

01:23:37.940 | and say, did I feel this way when I was younger?

01:23:39.780 | I don't remember feeling this way.

01:23:41.540 | I feel every day a dreadful feeling

01:23:44.420 | that if I don't get this right, I've betrayed everything.

01:23:48.820 | I've betrayed the fighter's trust.

01:23:50.500 | I've betrayed what I'm supposed to be.

01:23:53.180 | And then one day I tried to figure it out.

01:23:55.340 | Why do I feel this way?

01:23:56.660 | It's so intense.

01:23:58.020 | I was in camp for two months

01:23:59.340 | training a guy for the world title a few years ago,

01:24:03.460 | fighting the hardest puncher in the world at the time,

01:24:06.140 | and Adonis Stevenson, and the fighter was Ukrainian.

01:24:09.900 | And I was brought in to train him for that fight.

01:24:12.900 | And he trusted me and changed his whole style, trusted me.

01:24:16.620 | Oh my God, I went to bed every night like praying,

01:24:19.180 | dread, waking up dread, my stomach down to here,

01:24:24.020 | every day saying, what if I fail him?

01:24:27.140 | What if everything that I told him was gonna happen

01:24:30.500 | don't happen?

01:24:31.580 | What if I fail him?

01:24:32.860 | What if he trusted me?

01:24:34.540 | And I betrayed that trust.

01:24:37.500 | And the thing was, what cost was,

01:24:40.660 | he used to be stronger than that.

01:24:44.620 | And then I tried to figure it out why I got this way

01:24:48.660 | and why it was so dreadful to me

01:24:50.620 | and why I felt like I was on that role every day

01:24:52.780 | training a fighter.

01:24:53.700 | Like, did I do enough?

01:24:54.740 | Did I do it right?

01:24:55.580 | Will we accomplish what we,

01:24:58.180 | will we accomplish what I promised him

01:25:00.140 | we would accomplish?

01:25:01.340 | Would I keep my word?

01:25:02.740 | And then I started thinking, how did I become this weak?

01:25:06.500 | How did I freaking become,

01:25:07.620 | I was a pretty strong freaking guy.

01:25:09.340 | How did I become this weak?

01:25:10.620 | And then finally I think I figured it out.

01:25:12.180 | You know why?

01:25:13.340 | Because I was always working to get up.

01:25:15.900 | But once I finally got up, now I was looking down.

01:25:19.060 | And I finally hit me.

01:25:20.980 | I said, I didn't wanna lose.

01:25:22.940 | I said, there was nothing to lose on my way up.

01:25:25.900 | Now all of a sudden there's something to lose

01:25:27.340 | when you're up there and you're looking down.

01:25:29.500 | - And that's where he was.

01:25:30.620 | - And that's where Cuzz was.

01:25:32.540 | Cuzz was at the end of his rope.

01:25:34.180 | He accomplished the two world champs,

01:25:36.780 | all this stuff, right?

01:25:38.180 | Everything.

01:25:39.020 | And he did it right.

01:25:41.300 | Now all of a sudden it wasn't about moving forward.

01:25:44.700 | It was about not falling down.

01:25:46.380 | Holy cow.

01:25:49.260 | I was like, I got it, Cuzz.

01:25:51.300 | I got it.

01:25:52.660 | I got it.

01:25:53.700 | You didn't wanna fall down.

01:25:55.860 | Oh my God.

01:25:57.100 | You didn't wanna fall.

01:25:57.940 | And he, this was his last chance

01:26:02.100 | you don't give up on life.

01:26:04.420 | This was his last chance to live forever.

01:26:07.900 | To make everything he did worthwhile.

01:26:12.300 | To have the youngest, it wasn't just heavyweight champ.

01:26:15.300 | You gotta remember, he was the youngest

01:26:17.660 | heavyweight champ ever.

01:26:20.060 | And to have that, it was okay to die now.

01:26:24.600 | And how's loyalty, someone named Teddy Atlas

01:26:30.140 | gonna get in the way of that?

01:26:32.620 | That's a tidal wave.

01:26:34.420 | That there ain't no wall that's been made high enough

01:26:38.260 | to stop that tidal wave.

01:26:39.460 | And now I'll stop myself.

01:26:41.020 | Yeah, there is.

01:26:43.460 | But it would have to be an awful big one.

01:26:47.700 | And you know what?

01:26:48.780 | Who are we to say that we could ever build that wall that big?

01:26:52.180 | Who is any of us?

01:26:53.220 | Who am I to say?

01:26:54.360 | - Do you think, if you were to put yourself

01:26:56.180 | in the shoes of Cuzz Tomato,

01:26:59.560 | can you see yourself having the big enough wall

01:27:03.680 | or you would choose loyalty?

01:27:05.080 | - Now if I answer the way I feel,

01:27:09.960 | then I'm making myself John Wayne again.

01:27:13.280 | - You don't have to answer that.

01:27:14.800 | I think loyalty is important.

01:27:18.320 | - No matter what a man says, what he does in the end,

01:27:20.420 | that he intends to do all along.

01:27:22.520 | I didn't make that up, Cuzz did.

01:27:24.960 | And when this all went down,

01:27:28.020 | those words came freaking echoing into my freaking ears.

01:27:33.020 | I didn't want them.

01:27:36.060 | Cotton doesn't help.

01:27:37.480 | And they freaking kept coming into my ears.

01:27:41.940 | And what do you think?

01:27:42.940 | Still an immature kid at the time.

01:27:45.080 | You know, I was young.

01:27:47.340 | Still an immature kid at the time.

01:27:49.100 | What the freak do you think my response was?

01:27:52.500 | You were full of,

01:27:56.380 | but I got past that.

01:27:58.420 | - Do you forgive Cuzz?

01:27:59.900 | Have you found forgiveness?

01:28:02.340 | - Listen, I forgive him because

01:28:06.140 | he gave me more than he took away from me.

01:28:10.120 | If I can, what kind of man am I

01:28:13.820 | to if I can at least acknowledge that

01:28:16.460 | and be grateful for that?

01:28:17.660 | He gave me more than he took from me.

01:28:21.380 | And I'm grateful for that.

01:28:24.260 | I'm also grateful for what I gave him.

01:28:26.260 | That I did give him something.

01:28:30.900 | And at that point in his life,

01:28:33.960 | a place to still have test tubes

01:28:44.500 | and chemistry experiments.

01:28:48.140 | A laboratory where he could still create great fire.

01:28:51.740 | And I helped give him that.

01:28:53.500 | I helped, I was part of that lab

01:28:55.860 | and making sure that lab was there.

01:28:58.560 | And just that there was the existence

01:29:01.220 | of test tubes in the place

01:29:04.380 | because you can't freaking do experiments

01:29:06.480 | without test tubes.

01:29:07.460 | - Now you're the scientist with the test tubes.

01:29:10.100 | - Yeah, I guess so.

01:29:12.300 | And I just hope that,

01:29:15.060 | what I said earlier is really,

01:29:20.980 | it's really my thread through this whole thing.

01:29:25.020 | When you say, "Can you forgive?"

01:29:26.140 | 'Cause I'm still trying to forgive myself.

01:29:31.140 | And if I can have hope that I can forgive myself,

01:29:38.180 | I think that hope has to start

01:29:41.340 | with the power to forgive someone else.

01:29:44.560 | How can I ever forgive myself for all my failings

01:29:50.560 | and figure it out if I can't start and practice it

01:29:54.780 | by forgiving someone else for some shortcomings?

01:29:59.200 | And for me, that's the only sense of,

01:30:06.140 | sometimes a very hard thing to make sense of.

01:30:11.060 | That's my North Star.

01:30:14.560 | That's my compass.

01:30:18.620 | 'Cause just to make me laugh,

01:30:20.060 | you know, me and him did everything together.

01:30:21.700 | We drive and we get lost in the city.

01:30:24.240 | We get lost in the park and he'd get all frustrated.

01:30:27.620 | And he said, "Atlas, you're a great trainer,

01:30:30.460 | "but you turn you around, you spin you around,

01:30:32.860 | "and you're lost."

01:30:33.940 | And I said, "Me or we?"

01:30:37.380 | Because I was the only one who would argue with him.

01:30:39.600 | And it was really funny sometimes.

01:30:41.960 | And I said, "We or me?

01:30:43.260 | "You or, we or," and he goes, "Ah, I don't care.

01:30:47.140 | "Cuz, you're lost, I'm lost.

01:30:50.560 | "What are you talking about?"

01:30:52.420 | And then all of a sudden, Cuz couldn't give in.

01:30:54.420 | He just couldn't admit.

01:30:55.820 | He couldn't give in.

01:30:56.660 | You know what he said to me?

01:30:58.260 | All of a sudden he goes, "When I was in the Army,

01:31:01.540 | "if I had a compass, I could get out of the woods."

01:31:03.700 | I said, "We're not in the woods.

01:31:05.020 | "We're not in the Army.

01:31:05.860 | "We don't have a compass, Cuz.

01:31:07.860 | "Cuz, just don't argue with me."

01:31:13.140 | One time we're driving, I wanna get back to Catskill.

01:31:17.180 | We just finished at the Bronx.

01:31:19.400 | It's been a long day.

01:31:20.500 | - Yeah.

01:31:21.340 | - You know, visiting the Murderous Inks houses

01:31:25.340 | and everything else that he took me through

01:31:27.940 | for the 1800th time.

01:31:30.620 | And he would fall asleep.

01:31:33.860 | You know, he was getting older.

01:31:36.100 | And he would just fall asleep in the car.

01:31:37.620 | So what do you think?

01:31:38.660 | I went a little faster, right?

01:31:40.140 | Because before he went to sleep, he said, "Don't speed."

01:31:42.740 | So I don't consider myself, I try to be an honest guy.

01:31:46.620 | And I try to be a freaking, but, you know.

01:31:50.940 | - It was the five or six guys.

01:31:52.260 | - What did I say earlier?

01:31:53.180 | Try to do less submitting.

01:31:55.540 | - Yeah.

01:31:56.420 | - Really, in all phases, try to submit a little less.

01:31:59.780 | Try to lie a little less today.

01:32:01.440 | A little less.

01:32:04.260 | Try to get stronger.

01:32:05.380 | Try to get a little better.

01:32:06.740 | So here we are, and we're driving.

01:32:11.620 | And all of a sudden, he's, what did I do?

01:32:14.220 | 80, 75, probably, probably did.

01:32:17.140 | You know, whatever.

01:32:19.940 | And all of a sudden, he wakes up.

01:32:22.380 | You were speeding.

01:32:26.300 | Oh, I lie, no I wasn't.

01:32:27.860 | Don't lie.

01:32:30.980 | I'm not lying.

01:32:32.900 | He lied again.

01:32:35.660 | You were speeding.

01:32:36.580 | Now, come on.

01:32:39.060 | This guy, he's, you know what I mean?

01:32:40.580 | He's unbelievable.

01:32:43.700 | So I gotta freaking, you know, he's David Copperfield.

01:32:47.380 | I wanna know the trick.

01:32:48.900 | I wanna know how he freaking,

01:32:50.060 | he made this thing disappear.

01:32:51.500 | So I said, "What are you talking, how do you know?"

01:32:56.140 | He goes, "'Cause I timed you."

01:32:59.020 | I looked at the post number, and I'm like, "What?"

01:33:02.700 | I looked at the post number on the side of the road,

01:33:05.620 | where we were, whatever miles,

01:33:07.660 | and I never knew they even existed.

01:33:10.220 | I look, and I said, "Yeah, there's little numbers."

01:33:12.060 | - He started timing, and then fell asleep.

01:33:13.780 | - Yeah, he timed it, and he goes,

01:33:15.700 | "We couldn't have got from here to there

01:33:17.660 | "in that amount of time,

01:33:18.780 | "unless you were going 75 miles an hour."

01:33:21.260 | And I'm like, "All right, I'm impressed."

01:33:26.260 | Don't try to get the mile per hour part right.

01:33:30.740 | It's enough that you got me.

01:33:32.260 | That's enough.

01:33:35.940 | Yeah, I said, "And I'm not gonna do that, no, I'm,"

01:33:40.660 | you know, and just, he helped me in crazy ways

01:33:45.340 | where there would be times where I wanted to be,

01:33:48.260 | you know, where you wanted to be whatever, right?

01:33:50.620 | Convenient, weak, submit, right?

01:33:53.860 | And then all of a sudden, all of a sudden,

01:33:57.340 | in my mind, Cus was there with the stopwatch.

01:34:00.300 | (laughs)

01:34:02.700 | And I'd be like, you know,

01:34:05.340 | "No," you know, where I was about to say yes

01:34:08.780 | to whatever that particular situation was.

01:34:13.380 | (phone ringing)

01:34:16.420 | Somebody's up there calling.

01:34:19.340 | Hello?

01:34:20.940 | Hello?

01:34:21.780 | Yes, you're great.

01:34:25.140 | Thank you.

01:34:25.980 | Just for the record,

01:34:30.940 | I've never had a phone call like this.

01:34:32.500 | It's hotel security.

01:34:34.460 | The question is, he asked me is, "Are you okay, sir?"

01:34:37.900 | Are you okay?

01:34:38.940 | Are we okay?

01:34:39.780 | I think so.

01:34:41.340 | I think so, so far.

01:34:43.140 | Yeah.

01:34:43.980 | You know, I can only go like so far.

01:34:46.580 | It's kind of like that old joke, you know,

01:34:48.460 | where the guy jumps off the Empire State Building.

01:34:51.260 | Yeah.

01:34:52.100 | He's falling down, and he's going, you know,

01:34:53.580 | 80th floor, 70th floor, 60th floor, 50,

01:34:56.420 | and he gets past the 50th floor,

01:34:58.100 | and they're looking out the window,

01:34:59.260 | and he goes, "How am I doing?"

01:35:00.900 | So far, so good.

01:35:02.340 | I don't know where it's gonna end, but.

01:35:05.660 | So, Mike Dyson is considered by many

01:35:09.180 | to be one of the great boxers,

01:35:11.500 | one of the greatest boxers of all time,

01:35:13.500 | heavyweight boxers.

01:35:15.020 | What do you think, on the positive side, made him great?

01:35:18.060 | I don't know if he was ever great.

01:35:20.620 | I know he was sensational.

01:35:25.060 | I know he was the greatest mix

01:35:27.860 | of maybe speed and power ever.

01:35:30.660 | I know he was one of the greatest punchers

01:35:32.340 | from either side of the plate, left or right.

01:35:34.700 | There's been great punchers with just the right hand,

01:35:36.540 | like Ernie Chavis and Deontay Wilder and Max Baer.

01:35:41.460 | I don't know if there's ever been anyone

01:35:43.180 | who could punch as good as he did on either side

01:35:45.260 | with either hand, other than Joe Louis and a few others.

01:35:48.700 | I don't know if there's ever been such a combination

01:35:51.660 | of speed and power to that pure level that he had,

01:35:55.940 | and it was a pure level.

01:35:58.020 | I don't know if there was ever as good a fighter

01:36:00.620 | as Tyson was, where maybe one night he was great,

01:36:03.820 | where he wasn't tested,

01:36:04.820 | but he might've been ready to be tested

01:36:06.780 | that one night against Michael Spinks,

01:36:09.220 | when he took him apart in 90 seconds.

01:36:12.140 | I think I saw a great fighter that night.

01:36:14.180 | I don't think you can be great

01:36:17.820 | unless you have all the requirements of being great.

01:36:22.820 | What does it take to be a great fighter?

01:36:25.580 | Truly great.

01:36:28.020 | (silence)

01:36:30.180 | To not rely on someone else's weakness to be strong.

01:36:36.260 | To be strong on your own.

01:36:40.460 | Too often he relied on other people's weakness,

01:36:42.940 | whether it's by being intimidated,

01:36:45.860 | or whether it was because his talent

01:36:48.500 | was so much greater than theirs,

01:36:50.380 | that it was like putting a monster truck in there

01:36:52.740 | with a Volkswagen, and the Volkswagen was gonna get crushed.

01:36:56.580 | No matter how much horsepower the Volkswagen

01:36:59.420 | might've had under the hood, and you put under the hood,

01:37:02.180 | it was gonna get crushed.

01:37:04.220 | The monster truck was not gonna allow it to be a contest.

01:37:07.780 | And to be able to find a way

01:37:12.780 | when your talent wasn't enough.

01:37:16.860 | He didn't find a way when his talent wasn't enough.

01:37:18.980 | And I'm not making statements

01:37:21.180 | if I'm not ready to put some evidence.

01:37:23.500 | You know, like if we were in a courtroom, exhibit A.

01:37:26.140 | When he fought Buster Douglas,

01:37:31.580 | Buster Douglas matched his will,

01:37:36.260 | and didn't get intimidated, stood up to him.

01:37:39.860 | He didn't do what most people did.

01:37:41.620 | He didn't submit even a little bit.

01:37:44.300 | Not that night.

01:37:45.140 | He had in the past, but that night he didn't.

01:37:48.580 | Why?

01:37:49.420 | Because Buster had a secret weapon that night, his mother.

01:37:54.420 | Buster's mother had died a few months previous.

01:37:57.620 | He loved his mother very much.

01:37:59.540 | Buster had always had talent, big heavyweight,

01:38:01.780 | talented, could punch, technically solid.

01:38:04.620 | It was all those things, always was.

01:38:08.620 | But he quit in fights.

01:38:09.740 | He did less than he should've done.

01:38:11.940 | He never lived up to his ability.

01:38:13.660 | He gave in, he submitted.

01:38:16.020 | He wasn't strong enough.

01:38:17.660 | He never had a reason to be strong enough.

01:38:20.180 | When his mother died, he had a reason.

01:38:21.780 | Nothing could hurt him as much as his mother dying hurt him,

01:38:25.500 | Mike Tyson included.

01:38:27.580 | That night, Mike Tyson could not hurt him

01:38:31.660 | as much as his mother had hurt him by dying.

01:38:34.540 | That night, he had a reason to be strong for his mother,

01:38:38.500 | and he was strong.

01:38:39.340 | He was everything he was supposed to be, and more.

01:38:42.700 | And he stood up to Mike.

01:38:44.020 | And Mike, for the first time, maybe ever,

01:38:47.500 | was in a fight where he had to overcome something,

01:38:49.500 | where he had to be more than talented,

01:38:51.820 | more than a puncher, more than a guy with scintillating speed.

01:38:56.420 | And he wasn't.

01:38:59.300 | And then that night got followed by another night

01:39:01.620 | with Holyfield.

01:39:02.460 | Holyfield wasn't as talented as him,

01:39:05.900 | as big as a puncher, but Holyfield had the character.

01:39:10.900 | He was strong in ways that Tyson wasn't strong.

01:39:17.220 | He was strong in a way where he could find a way.

01:39:21.860 | He was willing to find a way.

01:39:24.180 | He's willing to go to the cliff

01:39:26.220 | to truly die before he's submitted.

01:39:30.620 | You know, a lot of stuff is just words.

01:39:33.060 | They're gonna have to carry me out on the shield.

01:39:35.780 | Yeah, sure, okay.

01:39:37.660 | Yeah, until it comes time to be carried out on the shield.

01:39:40.820 | Sometimes there's people that actually mean it.

01:39:45.500 | - You think Mike didn't have that?

01:39:47.540 | - Well, all right, let's just say arbitrarily,

01:39:51.660 | I don't have his record for me.

01:39:53.540 | Let's say it was 55 and five.

01:39:55.060 | I know he had about five losses.

01:39:56.940 | All right, let's say it was 55 and five, right?

01:39:59.220 | A lot of knockouts.

01:40:00.220 | I have a saying, a fight's not a fight

01:40:05.700 | until there's something to overcome.

01:40:07.460 | Until then, it's just an athletic exhibition, contest.

01:40:12.300 | Yeah, who's a better athlete?

01:40:14.540 | Who's got more quick twitch fibers?

01:40:16.100 | Who's more developed?

01:40:17.860 | Who's better at this?

01:40:18.740 | Who's more developed in those physical areas?

01:40:21.600 | But a fight is not a fight

01:40:23.820 | until there's something to overcome.

01:40:25.580 | Okay, so if you go by my definition, not Webster's,

01:40:30.580 | my definition, which I think means something,

01:40:33.860 | Mike Tyson was only in five fights in his life.

01:40:41.840 | The five fights where there was something to overcome

01:40:44.440 | and he didn't overcome it.

01:40:47.060 | Now, I know people hate me for this, including Tyson.

01:40:51.240 | I understand them, hate me.

01:40:54.040 | Oh, you're a hater 'cause you weren't with him.

01:40:56.040 | You didn't make the money because this, because that,

01:40:57.840 | because you got betrayed.

01:40:59.080 | I think I'm better than that.

01:41:02.740 | I hope I'm better than that.

01:41:03.760 | I believe I'm better than that.

01:41:05.840 | I'm not a hater.

01:41:07.400 | I've broadcast fights for 25 years on ESPN

01:41:10.680 | where there was some people in the corner I did not like.

01:41:13.440 | And if they did a good job, this guy's doing a great job.

01:41:16.280 | And then there were guys that I liked

01:41:18.960 | and I had friendship, but he messed up.

01:41:22.320 | And we weren't friends no more.

01:41:23.880 | Friendship got to be tested, remember that?

01:41:27.320 | So we weren't friends no more.

01:41:29.120 | But why did I do that?

01:41:31.140 | Because it was my job.

01:41:33.940 | It was more important for me.

01:41:38.680 | When it's all over with, the only thing you're left with is,

01:41:42.360 | I mean, we're gonna be dust, all of us, right?

01:41:46.320 | The only thing we're left with is what carries on,

01:41:49.160 | our reputation, you know, legacy, whatever that is.

01:41:53.760 | But our reputation, that's all we're left with.

01:41:57.560 | And that's all our kids are left with.

01:41:59.980 | I want it to be as good as it can be.

01:42:05.680 | I've always had an ability.

01:42:08.080 | I've done a lot of things wrong

01:42:09.320 | and I've had a lot of lackings.

01:42:10.880 | But the one strength I've had, if I had a strength,

01:42:14.320 | is to understand somehow, through osmosis, I guess,

01:42:20.720 | to learn the lesson that what's important

01:42:27.440 | is not what's in front of you for those five seconds,

01:42:33.120 | for that moment in life.

01:42:36.640 | It's what's left behind you

01:42:38.400 | when those five seconds are gone.

01:42:41.080 | Whatever it is that you're dealing with,

01:42:44.680 | you know, whatever that moment is, whatever,

01:42:48.220 | that moment, what you do in that moment,

01:42:51.780 | the action of that moment is gonna stay with you and be you.

01:42:59.520 | It's gonna become you.

01:43:04.280 | What you face for that moment,

01:43:07.640 | it's gone, it's gone in the air in an instant.

01:43:15.280 | It's gone, it's done.

01:43:16.960 | Whether you stand up there and you get shot in the head

01:43:20.760 | and the guy freaking blows your brains out

01:43:23.080 | or you're freaking, you stand up here

01:43:25.360 | or you're fighting a guy who's like a scary guy to fight,

01:43:30.320 | but you fight him and you beat him or he beats you up.

01:43:33.760 | But how you represented yourself in that moment

01:43:38.760 | is all that matters.

01:43:47.280 | That's gonna live.

01:43:48.120 | What happened don't matter.

01:43:50.080 | It don't matter that you got shot in the head.

01:43:52.760 | I know that sounds absurd,

01:43:54.600 | but if you believe that it was important to stand up

01:43:59.200 | and take the chance to get shot in the freaking head

01:44:01.920 | rather than to live like an empty vessel, you know what?

01:44:06.020 | That's all that freaking matters.

01:44:09.040 | And somehow that got freaking wrapped

01:44:11.440 | into this freaking head of mine.

01:44:13.160 | That's what matters.

01:44:15.920 | That's all that matters.

01:44:17.680 | How many times I went and I did things,

01:44:21.280 | whether it was with this one, with Tyson, with that,

01:44:23.560 | I didn't wanna be there.

01:44:24.560 | I was scared to death.

01:44:25.840 | But I was more scared, I was more scared--

01:44:31.520 | - Living with regret.

01:44:32.560 | - How I would have felt.

01:44:34.520 | I don't wanna be in solitary confinement

01:44:36.640 | the rest of my life with that freaking guy

01:44:38.960 | in the cell next to me called regret.

01:44:41.280 | I don't freaking wanna be next to that guy.

01:44:43.560 | If I wanna freaking go down that road,

01:44:45.640 | I'll watch Papillon, you know what I mean?

01:44:47.920 | And I'll get my fill from that.

01:44:50.160 | But I don't wanna freaking live it.

01:44:51.920 | I'm afraid of what my children would think of me

01:44:55.260 | if I fail in those areas.

01:45:00.600 | Why?

01:45:01.440 | Because that's forever.

01:45:03.960 | When I'm closing my eyes for the last time,

01:45:07.000 | I don't wanna have that fear.

01:45:11.200 | I don't wanna have that fear.

01:45:13.360 | You know, whether I'm going down there

01:45:14.680 | or whether I'm going up there.

01:45:16.200 | You know, I laugh because I was around guys years ago

01:45:21.200 | that used to, when we'd talk about that, you know,

01:45:25.480 | and just, you know, and I would get a kick out

01:45:29.560 | of this one guy who'd been around the block a few times,

01:45:33.120 | when he'd say, "Hey, Teddy, I ain't worried about that.

01:45:37.400 | "I got friends in both places."

01:45:39.200 | (laughing)

01:45:40.880 | - That's a good line.

01:45:41.880 | - And I thought it was good.

01:45:46.680 | Listen, Mike Tyson, you want me to say he was a great fighter

01:45:51.680 | then you want me to betray what I really,

01:45:53.800 | you know what I mean, you want me to do that?

01:45:55.880 | I ain't doing it for, listen,

01:45:58.040 | I could do it to be a bigger Teddy Atlas

01:46:00.320 | and I know it would work for me.

01:46:02.080 | I know it would be, it'd do great promotional work for me.

01:46:05.680 | I know it would make me more popular in certain area.

01:46:08.880 | I know it.

01:46:09.800 | I'm not that dumb, not that dumb.

01:46:12.960 | But I also know what else it would do to me.

01:46:15.860 | And I don't want it to do that to me.

01:46:19.520 | I think he was a great talent.

01:46:21.200 | I think maybe the night with Michael Spinks,

01:46:23.120 | maybe the night with Mike,

01:46:24.680 | maybe he could have been that fighter.

01:46:26.840 | But he didn't never really get tested.

01:46:28.680 | But he might've been ready no matter what,

01:46:30.520 | I have, to be tested that night.

01:46:32.720 | That's how good he was.

01:46:33.880 | That's how, even though he was a guy

01:46:35.320 | who used to be a light heavyweight, I get it.

01:46:37.420 | But was still a guy who beat Larry Holmes,

01:46:39.080 | who still has something left, Michael Spinks.

01:46:41.600 | So, and a great puncher, and an Olympic gold medalist.

01:46:44.920 | But, and a special fighter,

01:46:46.920 | one of the great light heavyweights of all time.

01:46:49.320 | You know what Mike Tyson was?

01:46:50.800 | He was a meteor.

01:46:52.360 | He was a meteor that struck across

01:46:54.060 | and not too many meteors,

01:46:55.720 | and we still talk about him.

01:46:57.800 | And unlike Haley's comment, he came back.

01:47:01.320 | And he's walking around.

01:47:04.120 | And he has become greater after his career.

01:47:08.480 | More loved, more beloved, more awed.

01:47:12.120 | And he's been forgiven.

01:47:13.760 | He found the fountain of forgiveness.

01:47:16.760 | I don't know, I wish I could find that.

01:47:19.260 | Where he has been forgotten for all his shortcomings,

01:47:22.800 | all the things that he may have done, may not have done,

01:47:25.280 | we don't know, only him and God know.

01:47:27.200 | But he's been forgiven of all that,

01:47:30.400 | and he's been not only forgiven,

01:47:32.720 | he's rised above it and above that,

01:47:37.080 | and been brought above that.

01:47:39.400 | He's been brought to the pyramids

01:47:42.040 | of the greatest athletes in the world.

01:47:47.040 | And in every way, in every way as a person,

01:47:54.940 | as a fighter, as a historian,

01:47:58.540 | as a figure, as a celebrity, I mean--

01:48:04.760 | - Even a philosopher.

01:48:06.320 | - Everything.

01:48:07.940 | So I will take it back.

01:48:09.760 | All right, all you guys out there, you forgive me?

01:48:12.040 | He's the greatest of all time,

01:48:14.120 | if you encapsulate all that.

01:48:16.240 | If you encapsulate everything I just tried to describe

01:48:19.080 | and explain, if you put that all,

01:48:22.440 | he's the greatest of all time.

01:48:23.560 | Yeah, he is.

01:48:24.400 | But he still might be 0-5 in a record of 55 fights.

01:48:29.400 | He might, in Teddy Atlas' book,

01:48:33.960 | again, I got friends in both places,

01:48:37.380 | so it's okay, wherever I go, I have company.

01:48:40.940 | Somebody there will like me, despite me saying this.

01:48:44.500 | He might be 0-5 because of five fights

01:48:47.180 | where there was something to overcome,

01:48:49.480 | which really defines a fight.

01:48:53.720 | He didn't find a way.

01:48:54.840 | - Let me ask Teddy Atlas to introspect

01:48:58.640 | on the human nature here.

01:49:00.120 | It's part of the complexities of your feelings

01:49:02.640 | on this whole thing is that you know to some degree

01:49:07.640 | that if you were coaching Mike Tyson,

01:49:10.560 | he could be truly great throughout--

01:49:13.160 | - I know, Cole, I'm gonna cut you right off

01:49:15.000 | because you asked a million dollar question.

01:49:16.720 | I wish you didn't, but you did.

01:49:19.360 | You did, 'cause that's why--

01:49:21.440 | - When do I get paid?

01:49:22.280 | - That's why you get paid.

01:49:23.480 | I get it.

01:49:24.320 | You took the words out of my mouth.

01:49:26.520 | That's why you are where you are.

01:49:28.280 | And that's why I'm here.

01:49:31.720 | - The humility.

01:49:34.320 | - I'm gonna, again, full disclosure, it's important, right?

01:49:37.920 | I'm gonna cheat.

01:49:41.280 | I'm gonna take some of Cus' wisdom, all right?

01:49:44.280 | A little bit of mine.

01:49:48.960 | Cus told somebody that if Teddy Atlas got his way,

01:49:53.960 | he might have been a better person,

01:49:56.640 | but we would have risked him not being a great fighter.

01:49:59.440 | Now, I believe, and I thought Cus did,

01:50:04.360 | and I think he did up to that point in his life,

01:50:07.480 | that part of your strength of character

01:50:09.320 | made you a great fighter, and truly a great fighter,

01:50:14.320 | and part of that battle to be a better person,

01:50:17.520 | that fight, if you will, to be a better person,

01:50:20.880 | to overcome the things, to be a better person,

01:50:23.180 | part of that fire you have to go through

01:50:26.520 | to be a better person, I really, truly bought into it,

01:50:30.920 | and I'm in for life.

01:50:33.440 | That is really the only way to be a great fighter,

01:50:38.760 | and I don't think that's what Cus meant.

01:50:47.000 | I think he meant that Cus knew more than I did

01:50:52.000 | of what was about to come, and what would come,

01:50:54.360 | and what the world was,

01:50:56.080 | how people would try to steal him,

01:50:57.480 | how people would take him,

01:50:58.560 | how people would steal his guy.

01:51:01.340 | The last thing he had, really,

01:51:07.600 | the thing that he lived for,

01:51:11.440 | 'cause he lived to have another heavyweight champ,

01:51:14.000 | the greatest fighter ever, Cus, in Cus's mind,

01:51:16.480 | that he could be,

01:51:17.960 | and I believe that Cus knew that he could put forward

01:51:22.960 | a guy that had the ability to be the greatest fighter ever

01:51:28.320 | without fully completing the mission

01:51:30.520 | of what it takes to really be great,

01:51:32.760 | but that he wouldn't be around to have to witness it,

01:51:36.360 | and that he wouldn't,

01:51:42.780 | he was willing to, oh man, this is awful,

01:51:45.580 | he's willing to concede that he might be dead

01:51:51.100 | in order to have eternal life,

01:51:53.100 | in order to have greatness,

01:51:54.740 | which Cus does have greatness,

01:51:57.300 | and part of that greatness is attached to Tyson,

01:51:59.900 | and he deserves it.

01:52:00.740 | He deserves it, Cus was a great man,

01:52:02.580 | and I wouldn't be here partly without him.

01:52:06.060 | - But that was part of the calculation.

01:52:08.740 | - I know that's deep, and I know that's,

01:52:10.700 | oh God, I hate myself right now,

01:52:13.340 | but Cus, he knew he was getting out free.

01:52:19.760 | He knew he was gonna not have to be there.

01:52:26.100 | He was getting off easy.

01:52:27.940 | Oh, Teddy, how do you say someone's gonna be dead?

01:52:30.300 | They're getting off easy.

01:52:31.660 | Well, I'll say it again in case you didn't hear me, all right?

01:52:34.620 | He was gonna get off easy and not have to face

01:52:39.620 | where he came up short, because he did his job,

01:52:43.340 | because he put forward the greatest fight of all time,

01:52:46.140 | and you guys screwed it up,

01:52:47.500 | and he knew that that might happen,

01:52:50.060 | but you guys screwed it up,

01:52:51.460 | and whatever, that's your fault, that's on,

01:52:55.780 | I'll tell you, Tyson would be mad at this,

01:52:57.780 | but that's on Tyson.

01:52:59.280 | How can you say that, Teddy?

01:53:01.900 | He loved me.

01:53:03.180 | I'm not saying he didn't love you,

01:53:05.020 | but he loved some other stuff too,

01:53:08.540 | and I don't know if Tyson could ever come

01:53:10.140 | to grips light with that, and it's not his job to,

01:53:14.600 | but it's my job not to hide from it.

01:53:18.500 | I know Cus in dimensions that other people

01:53:20.300 | just only think they know.

01:53:22.940 | - Did Cus know?

01:53:23.780 | Did Cus know this about himself?

01:53:25.680 | Did he reflect, did he introspect?

01:53:30.300 | - Oh, he sent a message to me.

01:53:32.100 | Cus sent a guide to me.

01:53:33.340 | My wife was pregnant.

01:53:35.300 | We were living in an apartment in Catskill

01:53:37.380 | on Cortiskill Road.

01:53:38.540 | We went through all this,

01:53:41.300 | and I was getting ready to move to Staten Island,

01:53:44.540 | and we still were there for a little while,

01:53:47.940 | before we did, after all this went down.

01:53:50.440 | He sent a guide to me, to the house,

01:53:56.300 | secret, whatever you wanna call it, my wife, me,

01:53:59.100 | so I listened to him.

01:54:02.900 | Cus said, "If you leave, I'm a messenger,"

01:54:06.900 | you know, whatever, "If you leave,"

01:54:09.260 | this was in the aftermath of what,

01:54:14.340 | the gun, the whole thing.

01:54:16.380 | You gotta remember, Tice was a ward of the state.

01:54:19.380 | He was put in Cus' custody.

01:54:20.980 | Cus was looking to adopt him, for obvious reasons,

01:54:24.460 | so he had control, and he loved him.

01:54:26.600 | How dare I say anything less?

01:54:30.580 | I won't, but it made sense, too.

01:54:33.660 | But he was a ward of the state still.

01:54:36.300 | Do you know what that means?

01:54:37.980 | There's rules, means the state's still overlooking it.

01:54:42.460 | If he ain't living the right life,

01:54:44.220 | you gotta remember, he came out of a jail,

01:54:49.660 | so reform school, but if he ain't living the right life,

01:54:54.420 | he could be taken away from Cus.

01:54:56.500 | What's not living the right life?

01:54:57.860 | Well, he wasn't in school no more.

01:54:59.500 | They didn't know about it.

01:55:00.800 | He had some things that were going on.

01:55:04.140 | We won't get into that right now,

01:55:06.260 | in school and different things, whatever.

01:55:08.420 | And he had a strainer put a gun to his head.

01:55:11.460 | That ain't so good.

01:55:12.460 | If a report came back to them that that happened,

01:55:15.960 | he would've been taken away from Cus.

01:55:18.700 | That couldn't happen.

01:55:21.180 | Look, nobody knows this.

01:55:23.020 | I talk about it a little bit, but never probably,

01:55:26.320 | because why would I?

01:55:28.340 | I don't know, why am I doing it now?

01:55:29.740 | I don't know, because, I don't know.

01:55:32.340 | Because I am, because it's now.

01:55:33.780 | Because it's now, maybe.

01:55:35.180 | Maybe because it's now, I don't know.

01:55:37.780 | So he sent this man that obviously we both knew,

01:55:42.780 | and he said, here's the deal, Teddy.

01:55:46.780 | If no talk about this, wants it to disappear basically,

01:55:51.260 | you leave, and he will give you 5% of his word.

01:55:56.260 | Can you imagine?

01:55:57.100 | He will give you 5% of Tyson's earnings

01:56:01.260 | for the rest of his career.

01:56:03.620 | And, but I don't regret it one bit,

01:56:06.540 | because it wouldn't have happened anyway.

01:56:07.780 | See, that's where I can be honest with my,

01:56:09.940 | people say, oh, he's a stand-up guy,

01:56:12.220 | because I told him to shove it with a, you know,

01:56:14.580 | in that place, and tell Cus to shove it

01:56:20.460 | in that freaking place, you know, I was mad.

01:56:22.660 | Teddy, Teddy, don't get angry.

01:56:25.500 | Don't get angry?

01:56:26.860 | Are you out of, are you serious?

01:56:28.580 | Get out of here.

01:56:29.940 | Tell him to go shove it over.

01:56:32.540 | And, you know, my wife was like, huh, but,

01:56:36.580 | and then people like, why didn't you take the deal?

01:56:39.300 | It wasn't a deal.

01:56:40.620 | It was an escape clause for Cus.

01:56:45.620 | It was, it was an insurance policy that his,

01:56:50.380 | you know, that this kid wouldn't be taken away from.

01:56:52.900 | And thank God he wasn't.

01:56:54.740 | I wasn't gonna go and say nothing.

01:56:56.220 | They didn't have to worry about, Cus forgot who I was.

01:56:59.380 | Cus forgot why he went to court for me.

01:57:02.260 | Because of those, because of those characteristics

01:57:04.740 | that he said he loved, and he noticed,

01:57:07.340 | and then that he admired.

01:57:08.940 | I didn't lose those characters.

01:57:11.100 | He forgot that that was me.

01:57:12.940 | He forgot who he was talking to.

01:57:15.020 | He didn't have to do that.

01:57:16.860 | How about, that's why I told him to shove it up his ass.

01:57:20.420 | Not because of the other insult.

01:57:22.780 | - Yeah.

01:57:23.620 | - And then, and then when people said to me,

01:57:25.940 | oh, you were stand-up.

01:57:27.220 | Because it was around a little bit.

01:57:28.820 | It was around in the circles.

01:57:30.740 | And then when people, oh, stand-up Teddy.

01:57:32.860 | He didn't care about the money.

01:57:35.580 | I said, stand-up Teddy, what are you talking about?

01:57:38.300 | How about, how about just realistic Teddy?

01:57:41.620 | How about I live in a real world

01:57:43.700 | that I was never gonna get that money?

01:57:45.380 | So I'm saying, I'm standing up to something

01:57:47.460 | that I knew never existed.

01:57:49.180 | So I ain't stand-up.

01:57:50.660 | Not in that way.

01:57:51.780 | I am in other ways maybe.

01:57:53.380 | But not, don't put a metal on my chest for that.

01:57:56.820 | Because that never existed.

01:57:59.140 | - Yeah.

01:57:59.980 | - It was never meant to exist.

01:58:01.860 | But he didn't even understand.

01:58:03.260 | That was the one thing that really disappointed me in Cuss.

01:58:07.340 | I was like, Cuss, you really allowed this to get to you.

01:58:11.700 | Where you've allowed it to really fog up your thinking

01:58:16.700 | to the point where you're smarter than that.

01:58:20.660 | You're better than that.

01:58:22.660 | That you would actually think you got a freaking offer me

01:58:26.900 | a freaking pieces of silver?

01:58:30.900 | - Yeah.

01:58:31.740 | - You really think that, that's what you, freak you.

01:58:34.820 | Like, all that you told me that you love me

01:58:37.820 | and that we were, I was the young master and all this.

01:58:41.740 | And you think you were gonna buy me?

01:58:44.160 | And I was gonna, and that was gonna keep me quiet?

01:58:48.580 | How about I would keep quiet

01:58:49.900 | because I would always keep quiet?

01:58:51.820 | - So he thought maybe you might betray him.

01:58:56.500 | - Isn't that interesting, yeah.

01:58:58.100 | And why did he think that?

01:59:01.460 | No, no, really.

01:59:03.400 | - Fear.

01:59:04.380 | - Yeah, but yeah, fear is at the essence of everything.

01:59:07.300 | It's connected with everything.

01:59:08.780 | Fear of losing what he was gonna lose.

01:59:11.140 | But it was more than fear.

01:59:12.500 | It was him not believing in the things

01:59:15.680 | that he told me he believed in.

01:59:17.180 | He didn't even know that.

01:59:20.320 | He believed in me because I was this stand-up guy

01:59:26.100 | because I didn't sell myself.

01:59:28.100 | Because I didn't freaking turn evidence.

01:59:31.640 | I didn't make a deal.

01:59:32.940 | And that's why he went to court.

01:59:35.460 | That's why he stood up for me.

01:59:36.700 | And I appreciate it.

01:59:38.300 | And that was what he lived by.

01:59:39.620 | And that was his, those were the blocks of being a man.

01:59:43.040 | It was so much for those blocks.

01:59:46.540 | - Well, it's like you said, loyalty requires,

01:59:52.820 | he would've had to take a risk on losing immortality

01:59:57.260 | that he would achieve by creating a great heavyweight champion.

02:00:01.900 | - 100%.

02:00:03.260 | But the only way you ever find out

02:00:05.300 | if somebody is worthy of that is to test.

02:00:09.820 | And it was Cus.

02:00:10.660 | - This is Shakespearean, you know.

02:00:12.780 | This story.

02:00:13.620 | - Cus told me, Cus said,

02:00:15.820 | and it does come in different forms.

02:00:18.140 | - Yeah.

02:00:19.620 | - I said, all right, Cus.

02:00:20.820 | - This was his test.

02:00:22.340 | And some people pass this test

02:00:25.260 | because they're able to pass that test

02:00:27.220 | because it's not really a test.

02:00:29.140 | Not for them, because it doesn't speak to their weakness.

02:00:32.820 | But it's the test that speaks to the weakness.

02:00:35.740 | That's the one.

02:00:37.000 | So this one, I get it.

02:00:40.020 | I get what it spoke to, Cus.

02:00:42.460 | And you know what?

02:00:43.300 | At the end of the day, I forgive you.

02:00:45.100 | And I feel bad for you.

02:00:50.860 | I feel bad that you were put in that position

02:00:53.220 | after you lived your life that way

02:00:55.300 | and that you taught that

02:00:58.100 | and you preached that from the mountaintops,

02:01:01.020 | that you had to be,

02:01:02.820 | that you had to be,

02:01:09.660 | I'm not gonna use the word,

02:01:13.820 | but that you had to fail yourself

02:01:19.260 | and that you had to somehow know that before you died.

02:01:22.660 | I just pray that you didn't know that.

02:01:25.260 | And you still don't know that because you were great.

02:01:28.340 | You were great.

02:01:29.220 | And you've given me some,

02:01:33.620 | you know, you've given me something to aspire towards,

02:01:43.380 | to try to be less weak.

02:01:49.860 | Try to be better.

02:01:51.100 | And try to be as good as you want it to be.

02:01:58.460 | I wish I can someday.

02:02:02.100 | More importantly, I wish I could make my father,

02:02:06.620 | you know, feel,

02:02:10.980 | just feel good up there.

02:02:18.020 | - You're a grandfather now.

02:02:19.980 | - Yeah, four grandchildren.

02:02:21.660 | - What, if you could give them advice

02:02:25.460 | on how to live a life they can be proud of.

02:02:29.540 | - Just,

02:02:33.860 | do everything you can

02:02:40.540 | to the best of your ability every day

02:02:47.060 | to like yourself.

02:02:48.180 | To give yourself a reason to actually say,

02:02:54.340 | "I'd like to be friends with that guy."

02:02:57.140 | - Is loyalty one of the reasons,

02:02:59.340 | one of the things to aspire to?

02:03:03.580 | - Loyalty is your chance to have a fulfilled life.

02:03:13.580 | Loyalty is your chance to have strength,

02:03:17.380 | to have all the things you need to have a good life,

02:03:21.540 | to be a good parent, be a good husband,

02:03:24.660 | be a good grandfather.

02:03:26.780 | Hopefully be a good role model.

02:03:29.420 | Loyalty is,

02:03:39.620 | loyalty is if you could find something to drink,

02:03:43.300 | to take into your body,

02:03:48.860 | to make you prepared for life,

02:03:53.180 | to be all the things that you wanna be,

02:03:55.580 | to be strong enough to be those things.

02:03:59.060 | Loyalty would be the thing you would drink.

02:04:01.220 | And when I say loyal,

02:04:05.620 | I mean unequivocally, I mean unconditionally,

02:04:09.500 | not conveniently.

02:04:12.420 | Obviously, you know that.

02:04:13.780 | If you could be loyal, you could be a good person.

02:04:18.900 | You could be a person

02:04:19.820 | that you would actually like to be around

02:04:22.660 | because you could be a person you could rely on.

02:04:25.180 | And I think that's one of the greatest assets

02:04:28.660 | that a human being can have.

02:04:30.140 | - And what do you do when you're betrayed?

02:04:34.140 | How do you overcome that?

02:04:36.340 | - You think of what you learned from it.

02:04:40.260 | Use it as a roadmap

02:04:44.740 | to remember and to think back of how you got there

02:04:52.420 | and how you got to the place where you got betrayed

02:04:58.020 | and how that person got to that place.

02:05:00.020 | Try to remember that in your own journey.

02:05:04.660 | - Has it, for you, made you cynical?

02:05:07.020 | Like how do you take the leap of trust

02:05:09.900 | towards people again and again after that?

02:05:14.900 | - Just by remembering that I'm still trying

02:05:16.740 | to forgive myself for the things that I came up short with.

02:05:21.740 | And if I haven't figured that out yet,

02:05:24.700 | it's probably okay to say

02:05:33.980 | they didn't figure it out yet.

02:05:35.380 | They didn't get it.

02:05:36.340 | They didn't figure it out.

02:05:38.660 | And if I couldn't figure it out

02:05:40.140 | and I'm still trying to figure it out,

02:05:42.020 | maybe I could get over that initial stabbing

02:05:49.060 | of what it feels like.

02:05:51.580 | It does feel kind of like a stabbing

02:05:53.380 | that you feel when you're betrayed initially

02:05:56.940 | and that you could only think of anger, revenge, hatred.

02:06:03.660 | And those things, I'm not proud of that,

02:06:06.780 | but I felt all those things, you know?

02:06:11.420 | And I still feel them sometimes.

02:06:13.820 | And then I go back and say,

02:06:15.300 | "Hey, you're still working at forgiving yourself

02:06:17.740 | "for some things.

02:06:19.300 | "Try to remember that, kid."

02:06:20.860 | Memory's an important thing.

02:06:24.780 | Forgetfulness is pretty important too.

02:06:28.700 | And try to remember why we forget.

02:06:33.140 | Why do we forget?

02:06:35.580 | Because it wasn't something you felt proud of.

02:06:38.620 | - You think about your death?

02:06:43.980 | Are you afraid of it?

02:06:45.020 | - You know, it's funny you ask that.

02:06:48.180 | I never used to think about it.

02:06:49.740 | I know people in both places, you know?

02:06:58.620 | - I know.

02:06:59.460 | You got it covered.

02:07:00.300 | (laughing)

02:07:02.140 | You're gonna be all right.

02:07:03.260 | - Don't forget that.

02:07:04.420 | I know people in both places.

02:07:06.020 | (laughing)

02:07:09.180 | - Both neighborhoods.

02:07:10.220 | I've been given credit for being brave

02:07:27.500 | in certain spots in life.

02:07:30.300 | I hope I can be brave when it comes time to leave life.

02:07:35.300 | I hope I can be, you know?

02:07:40.900 | And that's as real and honest as you can be about it.

02:07:45.900 | I hope I can be, you know?

02:07:48.740 | So far so good.

02:07:50.420 | You know, when I've had to be certain things

02:07:53.780 | that I was scared to freaking death,

02:07:58.020 | I found a way to be them, for the most part.

02:08:01.980 | And so, I figure when that day comes,

02:08:06.980 | I'll figure that out, too.

02:08:12.260 | - It's gonna be another test.

02:08:13.540 | Maybe the last one.

02:08:14.540 | Teddy, it's a huge honor to talk to you.

02:08:19.300 | - It's my pleasure.

02:08:20.380 | - Thank you for being the human you are,

02:08:22.260 | for being honest, honest about the full range

02:08:25.660 | of human nature, and thank you for talking today.

02:08:29.500 | - Thank you.

02:08:30.340 | Thank you for having me, and thanks for listening.

02:08:34.580 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

02:08:36.980 | with Teddy Atlas.

02:08:38.220 | To support this podcast,

02:08:39.340 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

02:08:41.980 | And now, let me leave you with some words from Muhammad Ali.

02:08:45.740 | I hated every minute of training,

02:08:49.300 | but I said, "Don't quit.

02:08:51.460 | "Suffer now, and live the rest of your life as a champion."

02:08:56.460 | Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

02:08:59.860 | (upbeat music)

02:09:02.440 | (upbeat music)

02:09:05.020 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Teddy Atlas: Mike Tyson, Cus D'Amato, Boxing, Loyalty, Fear & Greatness | Lex Fridman Podcast #406

Chapters