Michael Malice: Anarchy, Democracy, Libertarianism, Love, and Trolling

00:00:00.000 | The following is a conversation with Michael Malice,

00:00:02.740 | an anarchist, political thinker, author,

00:00:05.840 | and a proud, part-time, Andy Kaufman-like troll,

00:00:10.160 | in the best sense of that word,

00:00:11.940 | on both Twitter and in real life.

00:00:15.000 | He's a host of a great podcast called

00:00:17.600 | You're Welcome, spelled Y-O-U-R.

00:00:20.940 | I think that gives a sense of his sense of humor.

00:00:23.560 | He is the author of Dear Reader,

00:00:25.960 | the unauthorized autobiography of King Jong-il,

00:00:29.600 | and The New Right,

00:00:31.060 | a journey to the fringe of American politics.

00:00:33.880 | This latter book, when I read it,

00:00:36.040 | or rather listened to it last year,

00:00:38.520 | helped me start learning about

00:00:40.200 | the various disparate movements

00:00:41.720 | that I was undereducated about,

00:00:43.600 | from the internet trolls, to Alex Jones,

00:00:46.920 | to white nationalists, and to techno-anarchists.

00:00:51.440 | The book is funny and brilliant, and so is Michael.

00:00:54.720 | Unfortunately, because of a self-imposed deadline,

00:00:58.160 | I actually pulled an all-nighter before this conversation.

00:01:01.320 | So I was not exactly all there mentally,

00:01:03.920 | even more so than usual,

00:01:05.680 | which is tough because Michael is

00:01:07.460 | really quick-witted and brilliant.

00:01:09.920 | But he was kind, patient,

00:01:11.720 | and understanding in this conversation,

00:01:13.680 | and I hope you will be as well.

00:01:16.120 | Today, I'm trying something a little new,

00:01:18.120 | looking to establish a regular structure

00:01:20.200 | for these intros.

00:01:22.000 | A first, doing the guest intro, like I just did.

00:01:25.040 | Second, quick one or two sentence mention

00:01:27.640 | of each sponsor.

00:01:29.000 | Third, my side comments related to the episode.

00:01:32.320 | And finally, fourth, full ad reads

00:01:35.040 | on the audio side of things,

00:01:36.800 | and on YouTube, going straight to the conversation.

00:01:39.580 | So not doing the full ad reads.

00:01:41.560 | And as always, no ads in the middle,

00:01:43.600 | because to me, they get in the way of the conversation.

00:01:46.640 | So, quick mention of the sponsors.

00:01:48.560 | First, SEMrush, the most advanced SEO optimization tool

00:01:52.920 | I've ever come across.

00:01:54.360 | I don't like looking at numbers,

00:01:56.100 | but someone probably should.

00:01:57.560 | It helps you make good decisions.

00:02:00.040 | Second sponsor is DoorDash,

00:02:01.920 | food delivery service that I've used for many years

00:02:04.720 | to fuel long, uninterrupted sessions of deep work

00:02:07.680 | at Google, MIT, and I still use it a lot today.

00:02:11.880 | Third sponsor is Masterclass,

00:02:14.000 | online courses from the best people in the world

00:02:16.760 | on each of the topics covered,

00:02:18.580 | from rockets, to game design, to poker,

00:02:21.080 | to writing, and to guitar, with Carlos Santana.

00:02:25.360 | Please check out these sponsors in the description

00:02:27.300 | to get a discount and to support this podcast.

00:02:30.800 | As a side note, let me say that I hope to have

00:02:33.040 | some conversations with political thinkers,

00:02:35.700 | including liberals and conservatives,

00:02:38.180 | anarchists, libertarians, objectivists,

00:02:41.120 | and everything in between.

00:02:42.920 | I'm as allergic to Trump bashing and Trump worship

00:02:46.480 | as you probably are.

00:02:48.200 | I have none of that in me.

00:02:49.820 | I really work hard to be open-minded

00:02:52.080 | and let my curiosity drive the conversation.

00:02:54.600 | I do plead with you to be patient on two counts.

00:02:57.780 | First, I have an intense, busy life

00:03:00.580 | outside of these podcasts.

00:03:02.400 | Like, it's 4 a.m. right now as I'm recording this.

00:03:05.540 | So sometimes, life affects these conversations.

00:03:08.400 | Like in this case, I pull an all-nighter beforehand.

00:03:11.280 | So please be patient with me if I say something

00:03:13.260 | ineloquent, confusing, dumb, or just plain wrong.

00:03:17.660 | I'll try to correct myself on social media

00:03:19.680 | or in future conversations as much as I can.

00:03:22.380 | I really am always learning and working hard

00:03:24.540 | to improve.

00:03:26.040 | Second, if I or the guest says something about,

00:03:29.900 | for example, our current president, Donald Trump,

00:03:33.060 | that's over-the-top negative or over-the-top positive,

00:03:36.900 | please don't let your brain go into the partisan mode.

00:03:39.740 | Try to hear our words in an open-minded, nuanced way.

00:03:43.220 | And if we say stuff from a place of emotion,

00:03:45.820 | please give us a pass.

00:03:47.420 | Nuanced conversation can only happen

00:03:49.740 | if we're patient with each other.

00:03:51.380 | If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube,

00:03:54.220 | review the Five Stars on Apple Podcasts,

00:03:56.580 | follow on Spotify, support on Patreon,

00:03:58.940 | or connect with me on Twitter, @LexFriedman.

00:04:02.460 | And now, here's my conversation with Michael Malice.

00:04:06.300 | - There was a Simpsons episode where he starts mixing

00:04:10.100 | sleeping pills with pet pills, and he's driving his truck,

00:04:13.580 | and I'm like, "I wanna see what happens

00:04:14.700 | "if he makes Red Bull and Nitro cold brew."

00:04:16.900 | (laughs)

00:04:19.260 | - It's a lineup of drugs.

00:04:20.720 | - This is gonna be so fun.

00:04:22.860 | - This is, yeah.

00:04:24.620 | Let's start with love.

00:04:25.820 | - Yes.

00:04:26.660 | (laughs)

00:04:27.480 | (speaking in foreign language)

00:04:28.900 | - Yeah, so one thing we'll eventually somehow talk about,

00:04:31.700 | it'll be a theme throughout, is that you're also Russian.

00:04:34.300 | - Yes.

00:04:35.140 | - A little bit less than me, but--

00:04:36.940 | - How, at my, 'cause I'm from Ukraine.

00:04:39.660 | - Oh, you're from Ukraine?

00:04:40.660 | - From above.

00:04:41.500 | - Okay, wow.

00:04:42.380 | No, because you came here a little bit

00:04:43.980 | when you were younger.

00:04:44.900 | - Yeah.

00:04:45.740 | - I came here when I was 13,

00:04:47.740 | so I saturated a little bit of the Russian soul.

00:04:49.980 | I marinated in the Russian soul a little deeper.

00:04:52.540 | I haven't told anyone this,

00:04:53.660 | but I'll be glad to tell you, Davidish.

00:04:55.740 | I haven't been back since I was two.

00:04:59.180 | And next summer, it looks like me and my buddy,

00:05:01.460 | Chris Williamson, who's also a podcaster,

00:05:03.260 | he's British, Modern Wisdom.

00:05:04.460 | He looks like Apollo.

00:05:06.340 | Looks like we got a videographer.

00:05:07.620 | - Which Apollo?

00:05:08.460 | Apollo Kreeg? - The God.

00:05:09.280 | He looks like the God, Apollo.

00:05:10.260 | Yeah, he's like a model.

00:05:11.100 | - I thought you were talking about Rocky.

00:05:12.700 | (laughs)

00:05:13.780 | - So we're gonna go for the first time

00:05:16.660 | to see where I came from.

00:05:18.500 | - Which is in Ukraine. - And film it.

00:05:19.940 | We're gonna go to Lvov,

00:05:20.820 | and either St. Petersburg or Moscow,

00:05:22.340 | probably St. Petersburg, or both.

00:05:24.020 | It's gonna be intense.

00:05:25.780 | It's gonna be a lot of panic attacks, I feel.

00:05:28.480 | - And your Russian is okay?

00:05:29.860 | (speaking in foreign language)

00:05:34.460 | - No, you can't talk Russian in Ukraine,

00:05:35.900 | or they get offended.

00:05:37.460 | - Yeah, but then you also wanna go to Russia.

00:05:39.940 | - Yeah.

00:05:41.340 | - I don't know.

00:05:42.940 | For me, there's several people in Russia

00:05:44.860 | I wanna interview on a podcast.

00:05:47.060 | So one of them is Gagarev Proman,

00:05:49.700 | who's a mathematician,

00:05:51.260 | and the other person is Putin.

00:05:53.740 | - You know what my favorite Putin story is?

00:05:55.700 | Do you know this? - No.

00:05:56.660 | - When he had Merkel with him, do you know this story?

00:05:58.580 | - No.

00:05:59.400 | - Merkel's scared of dogs, like petrified of dogs.

00:06:02.180 | So he brings in his like black lab.

00:06:06.220 | It's a Labrador, it's like the sweetest animal,

00:06:08.260 | and it's all over her, and there's pictures,

00:06:09.780 | and she's sitting like this, and she's terrified,

00:06:12.060 | and he's like, "What's wrong, Angela?"

00:06:13.740 | It's just completely trolling her.

00:06:15.500 | - Yeah, he's aware of the sort of,

00:06:19.460 | the narrative around him.

00:06:20.860 | - Yeah.

00:06:21.700 | - And then he plays with it. - Yes.

00:06:22.940 | - He enjoys it.

00:06:23.780 | - It's a very Russian thing.

00:06:24.780 | My friend wanted to do a film about me.

00:06:26.300 | He goes, "I realized you guys aren't like us at all.

00:06:28.580 | "You just like look at us."

00:06:30.100 | And then I started telling him stories about the upbringing,

00:06:32.580 | and he's like, "Oh my God."

00:06:33.580 | And as I'm telling them, I'm like,

00:06:34.520 | "Wow, this stuff is really crazy, like how we are wired."

00:06:38.460 | - Who's the we?

00:06:39.300 | Your friend is-- - The Russian.

00:06:40.260 | The Friends of America.

00:06:41.100 | I'm saying the way Russians are brought up,

00:06:42.940 | and the way maybe, I don't think it was just my family.

00:06:45.180 | I bet you had similar things.

00:06:46.620 | Here's an example.

00:06:47.660 | I had a buddy staying with me.

00:06:50.420 | He had a problem with his roommate,

00:06:51.380 | so he crashed at my place.

00:06:52.300 | Fine.

00:06:53.140 | I went to the gym, and I come back, and he goes,

00:06:57.780 | "Oh, there was," and my apartment building

00:06:59.300 | is four-floor apartment, so it's not like a huge thing.

00:07:02.020 | He goes, "Oh, there was someone knocking at your door."

00:07:04.460 | So I told him, blah, blah, blah.

00:07:06.580 | And for me, and I wonder if you're the same way,

00:07:10.940 | if I'm at someone's house that's not my own,

00:07:12.900 | and someone knocks on the door,

00:07:14.660 | I wouldn't even think to answer it.

00:07:16.620 | Like if I had an apple here, maybe I'd eat it,

00:07:18.900 | I'd cut it, whatever.

00:07:20.360 | I'm not gonna, it just doesn't enter my head

00:07:21.820 | to smash into my face.

00:07:23.140 | The thought of answering the door if it's not my house,

00:07:26.380 | it would never enter my head.

00:07:27.420 | Would it enter your head?

00:07:28.620 | - No, but why?

00:07:30.020 | - But he's an American, so someone's at the door.

00:07:31.740 | He goes and opens it, even though it's not his house.

00:07:33.620 | I would never do that.

00:07:34.700 | I would never think to do that.

00:07:36.820 | - That is so strange that you pick some very obscure thing

00:07:39.880 | to delineate Americans and Russians.

00:07:42.060 | - I don't think that's obscure,

00:07:43.020 | 'cause I think it speaks to how we perceive strangers.

00:07:46.540 | With Americans, everyone's friendly,

00:07:48.260 | and with us, it's like, no, no, you have that moat.

00:07:52.000 | And I think that percolates into many different aspects

00:07:55.200 | of how we relate to people, and I had to undo a lot of that.

00:07:58.040 | - That's true.

00:07:58.860 | You're right, there's the relationship I formed there

00:08:00.880 | where in Russia, we're very deep and close,

00:08:04.240 | and then there's the strangers, the other,

00:08:06.320 | that you don't trust by default.

00:08:08.920 | It takes a long time to go over the moat of trust.

00:08:11.280 | - For a long time, until recently,

00:08:13.880 | whenever I said anything to anyone,

00:08:15.440 | my brain ran a scan that said,

00:08:18.520 | "If this person turns on you, can they use this against you?"

00:08:22.680 | And I would do this with everything I said with strangers.

00:08:24.800 | And after a while, it's like, you know what?

00:08:26.340 | Maybe they will, but I'm strong enough to take it,

00:08:28.240 | but this is not how Americans think.

00:08:30.600 | Or here's another one.

00:08:31.440 | Let me ask you this.

00:08:32.260 | Sorry, I'm taking over the interview.

00:08:33.100 | People ask about advice for work.

00:08:35.300 | There was this party I went to,

00:08:37.940 | and basically everyone had their own problems,

00:08:39.560 | and everyone else gave their advice, right?

00:08:41.300 | And someone's having a problem with the coworker,

00:08:43.400 | and the advice these two poor Americans gave them is,

00:08:46.760 | "Oh, sit down and have a talk with them."

00:08:48.840 | And to me, this is like the last resort.

00:08:52.960 | Like, first you have to see what you can

00:08:54.560 | without showing your hand, showing your vulnerability,

00:08:57.040 | only when everything hasn't worked out,

00:08:58.740 | and you're like, "All right, let me sit down with you

00:09:00.200 | and try to have it out with you," probably.

00:09:02.160 | But for them, the first thing is like,

00:09:03.520 | sit down and be like,

00:09:04.640 | "Oh, you're causing me problems," and blah, blah, blah.

00:09:07.000 | So I perceive that right away as a threat,

00:09:09.400 | that this person sees an antagonism between us,

00:09:11.520 | and also as a weakness that I'm getting to them.

00:09:13.720 | So my reaction isn't, "How do I make it better?"

00:09:17.280 | My reaction is to reinforce my position

00:09:20.240 | and see what I can to marginalize them, usually.

00:09:23.680 | I haven't worked in a corporate setting in a long time.

00:09:25.720 | But it's not, I don't approach it the way an American would,

00:09:27.800 | like, "I'm glad you came and talked to me."

00:09:29.080 | Now I probably would, 'cause it's gonna be a friend.

00:09:31.520 | - So you attribute that to the Russian upbringing,

00:09:34.640 | as opposed to you have deep psychological issues.

00:09:38.040 | - I think there's a synonymous, Daniel.

00:09:39.600 | (both laughing)

00:09:40.960 | - Would you think differently, maybe a few years ago?

00:09:44.440 | - I don't know.

00:09:47.480 | I think you lost me at the,

00:09:50.440 | 'cause you kinda said that,

00:09:52.320 | you're kinda implying you have a deep distrust of the world.

00:09:55.640 | Like, the world does--

00:09:57.320 | - I think the default setting would be distrust, yeah.

00:10:00.020 | - But I would put it differently,

00:10:05.560 | is I almost ignore the rest of the world.

00:10:09.400 | I don't even acknowledge it.

00:10:11.360 | I just savor, I save my love and trust

00:10:16.360 | for the small circle of people.

00:10:18.640 | - I agree, but when that person is being confrontational,

00:10:21.240 | or as they perceive it, as being open,

00:10:24.040 | now there's a situation.

00:10:25.520 | How would you handle that?

00:10:27.320 | - Like a cold wind blows?

00:10:30.320 | You just kinda like--

00:10:31.320 | - Yeah, but it's not like this is an opportunity

00:10:33.400 | for us to work out our differences.

00:10:35.160 | It's a cold wind.

00:10:36.400 | It's not a hug, that's my point.

00:10:38.560 | Americans think it's a hug.

00:10:40.080 | You're so suspicious.

00:10:43.040 | What it really is, is a cold wind.

00:10:45.200 | I'm so inhumane.

00:10:48.040 | It's not something to be scared of.

00:10:50.360 | It's a cold wind, it's not a good person.

00:10:52.560 | - But it's not, this is great.

00:10:54.840 | But it's not a source of,

00:10:56.320 | I'm not suspicious of,

00:10:59.160 | I'm not anxious, I would say,

00:11:01.520 | or living in fear of the rest of the world.

00:11:04.520 | - Oh, I agree, but you're not receptive to that person.

00:11:06.920 | - Right. - That's all I'm saying.

00:11:08.200 | And they are.

00:11:09.440 | - Got it.

00:11:10.280 | So speaking of which, let's talk about love.

00:11:12.720 | - Yes.

00:11:13.560 | (Lex laughing)

00:11:14.400 | - Which requires to be receptive of the world.

00:11:17.480 | - Yes. - Of strangers.

00:11:18.680 | - Agreed.

00:11:19.800 | - How do we put more love out there in the world,

00:11:23.040 | especially on the internet?

00:11:25.360 | - One mechanism I have found to increase love,

00:11:30.360 | and that's a word that has many meanings

00:11:31.920 | and is used in a very intense sense

00:11:33.920 | and is used in a very loose sense.

00:11:35.400 | - Can you try to define love?

00:11:36.840 | - Sure, love is a strong sense of attraction

00:11:41.840 | toward another person, entity, or place

00:11:46.920 | that causes one to tend to react

00:11:51.340 | in a disproportionately positive manner.

00:11:53.540 | That's off the top of my head.

00:11:54.440 | - Disproportionately?

00:11:55.480 | - Yes.

00:11:56.640 | So for example, if you--

00:11:57.680 | - Why not proportionally?

00:11:58.740 | - Because if someone's about to,

00:12:01.800 | who you love is about to get harmed,

00:12:04.100 | you're moving heaven and earth

00:12:05.640 | to make sure, or like a book you love.

00:12:08.440 | You know, like I love this book.

00:12:09.440 | Like you're going through the fire to try to save it.

00:12:11.640 | Whereas if it's a book you really like,

00:12:13.120 | it's like, oh, I'll get another one.

00:12:15.280 | I don't, you know, and a book's kind of a loose example,

00:12:18.120 | but--

00:12:18.940 | - So you're going with the love that's like,

00:12:20.160 | you're saving for just a few people,

00:12:22.240 | almost like romantic love, like love for a close family.

00:12:25.040 | - But it's also--

00:12:25.880 | - But what about just love to even the broader,

00:12:28.800 | like the kind of love you can put out

00:12:30.920 | to people on the internet, which is like just kindness?

00:12:33.840 | - Sure, I would say in that case,

00:12:35.280 | it's important to make them feel seen and validated.

00:12:40.280 | And I try to do this when people who I have come to know

00:12:44.840 | on the internet, and there's a lot,

00:12:46.600 | I try to do that as much as possible

00:12:48.760 | because I don't think it's valid how on social media,

00:12:52.720 | and I do this a lot myself, but not towards everyone,

00:12:55.160 | it's just there to be aggressive and antagonistic.

00:12:58.320 | You should be antagonistic towards bad people,

00:13:00.560 | and that's fine.

00:13:01.640 | But at the same time, there's lots of great people,

00:13:04.440 | and especially with my audience,

00:13:06.120 | and I would bet disproportionately with yours,

00:13:08.560 | there's lots of people who are,

00:13:10.320 | because of their psychology and intelligence,

00:13:13.320 | are going to be much more isolated socially than they should.

00:13:17.240 | And if I, and I've heard from many of them,

00:13:19.360 | and if I'm the person who makes them feel,

00:13:21.200 | oh, I'm not crazy, it's everyone else around me

00:13:24.160 | who is just basic, the fact that I can be that person,

00:13:27.680 | which I didn't have at their age,

00:13:29.520 | to me is incredibly reaffirming.

00:13:32.460 | - You mean that source of love?

00:13:34.100 | - But I mean love in the sense of like,

00:13:36.180 | you know, you care about this person,

00:13:37.700 | and you want good things for them,

00:13:38.780 | not in a kind of romantic way,

00:13:40.180 | but I mean, you're using a broad sense now.

00:13:42.500 | - Yeah, but you're also a person who kind of,

00:13:44.900 | I mean, attacks the power structures in the world

00:13:51.140 | by mocking them effectively.

00:13:54.820 | And love, I would say, requires you to be non-witty

00:13:59.820 | and simple and fragile,

00:14:04.680 | which I see it as like the opposite of what trolls do.

00:14:08.240 | - Trolls are, if there is someone coming after what I love,

00:14:13.240 | there's two mechanisms, right, at least two.

00:14:18.760 | I go up and I'm fighting them,

00:14:20.760 | and in which case, you bring in,

00:14:22.600 | if you are getting hurt in a knife fight,

00:14:24.680 | even if you win the knife fight,

00:14:26.420 | or if you disarm them,

00:14:29.220 | and you preclude the possibility of a fight,

00:14:31.460 | and you drive them off or render them powerless,

00:14:34.120 | you keep your person intact as yourself,

00:14:37.860 | and you also protect your values.

00:14:39.680 | - So how do you render them powerless?

00:14:41.680 | - As you just said, by mocking them.

00:14:43.240 | One of the most effective mechanisms for those in power,

00:14:46.340 | we're much closer to Brave New World than 1984.

00:14:49.000 | The people who are dominant and in power

00:14:51.100 | aren't there because of the threat of,

00:14:53.360 | you know, the gulag or prison.

00:14:54.740 | They're there because of social pressures.

00:14:56.440 | Look at the masks.

00:14:58.000 | I was on the subway not that long ago in New York City.

00:15:01.600 | No one cared who I was until I put off the mask.

00:15:04.080 | I was in the subway that long in New York City,

00:15:06.120 | and I put this on my Instagram, I've told this story before.

00:15:08.320 | There was an Asian dude in his early 30s.

00:15:10.120 | He was like in Western clothes.

00:15:11.420 | It's not like he had a rickshaw or something.

00:15:13.460 | An older man in his 50s stood up over him on the subway,

00:15:16.880 | screamed at him, said, "Go back where you came from.

00:15:20.420 | "You're disgusting, I'm gonna get sick.

00:15:22.200 | "If you think this guy's a vector of disease,

00:15:23.880 | "which is your prerogative, why are you coming close to him?

00:15:25.760 | "Why are you getting in his face?"

00:15:27.420 | And what-- - 'Cause that was the rate,

00:15:29.000 | sorry, so it was because he was Asian?

00:15:32.140 | - It was both.

00:15:32.980 | It was the not having a mask gave him the permission

00:15:37.600 | to act like a despicable, aggressive person toward him.

00:15:41.200 | And the point being, a lot of these mechanisms

00:15:45.020 | for social control are outsourced to low-quality people

00:15:49.280 | because this is their one chance

00:15:50.640 | to assert dominance and status over somebody else.

00:15:53.280 | So the best way to diffuse that

00:15:54.980 | isn't with weaponry or fighting.

00:15:56.860 | It's through mockery 'cause all of a sudden,

00:15:59.000 | their claims to authority are effectively destroyed.

00:16:01.800 | - So let me push back on that.

00:16:03.000 | What about fighting that with love,

00:16:06.960 | with patience and kindness towards them?

00:16:10.920 | - I don't think kindness is,

00:16:12.840 | I think that would be a mismatch and inappropriate.

00:16:16.080 | There's Superman, there's Batman, okay?

00:16:18.160 | And Superman's job is to help the good people.

00:16:20.080 | Batman's job is to hurt the bad people.

00:16:22.120 | And I will always be on the Batman side

00:16:25.200 | than the Superman side.

00:16:26.360 | - Both work, silly tight costumes.

00:16:29.880 | One has pointy ears, both are ridiculous.

00:16:32.560 | So it's-- - And what's a billionaire

00:16:34.160 | who gets, he's swimming in trim.

00:16:36.240 | - Which one is a billionaire? - Batman.

00:16:37.920 | - Okay, I'm undereducated on the superhero movies.

00:16:42.920 | I apologize.

00:16:44.440 | Okay, but you're just saying you,

00:16:47.280 | your predisposition is to be on the Batman side

00:16:50.560 | is to fighting the bad guys.

00:16:54.680 | - Yeah, and it's what I'm good at.

00:16:57.320 | - That's what you're good at.

00:16:58.560 | But just to play devil's advocate,

00:17:02.520 | or actually in this case, I am the devil

00:17:04.600 | 'cause it's what I usually do.

00:17:06.360 | - Well, I'm the devil, you're the angel's advocate.

00:17:08.440 | - Exactly, I'm to be the angel advocate, yeah.

00:17:12.280 | It's like, I feel like mockery

00:17:15.880 | is a path towards escalation of conflict.

00:17:20.360 | - Yes, in many ways, yes.

00:17:22.080 | - So you're not, I mean,

00:17:25.000 | it's kind of like guerrilla warfare.

00:17:28.560 | I mean, you're not going to win.

00:17:31.480 | - I am winning, we're all winning.

00:17:32.800 | We're winning on a daily.

00:17:33.920 | This is my next book, we're winning.

00:17:35.720 | We've won before, I'm not joking.

00:17:37.480 | - The topic of the next book-- - Yes, is the white pill.

00:17:40.640 | - The white pill. - Is that we're gonna,

00:17:42.200 | we are winning, the most horrible people

00:17:45.520 | are being rendered into laughing stocks

00:17:47.480 | on a daily basis on social media.

00:17:49.120 | This is a glorious thing. - I so disagree with you.

00:17:52.160 | I disagree with you because there's side effects

00:17:54.160 | that are very destructive.

00:17:56.000 | It feels like you're winning,

00:17:57.560 | but we're completely destroying the possibility

00:18:00.400 | of having a cohesive society.

00:18:04.680 | - That's called oncology.

00:18:06.760 | - What's that mean?

00:18:07.880 | - Curing cancer.

00:18:09.520 | Your concept of a cohesive society

00:18:11.800 | is in fact a society based on oppression

00:18:15.760 | and not allowing individuals to live their personal freedom.

00:18:20.160 | - Oh, so you're a utopian view of the world.

00:18:22.560 | - You're the utopian, you're saying cohesive society.

00:18:24.840 | I'm saying I don't need that.

00:18:25.880 | I'm saying there's gonna be conflict.

00:18:27.680 | Right, there's gonna be conflict.

00:18:29.160 | You and I are disagreeing right now, that's not cohesive.

00:18:31.400 | Doesn't mean we like each other less,

00:18:32.680 | doesn't mean we respect each other less.

00:18:34.560 | Cohesive, it's just a euphemism

00:18:37.080 | for everyone submitting to what I want.

00:18:40.000 | - No, I mean, cohesive could be that.

00:18:43.840 | It could be like enforced with violence,

00:18:48.200 | all that kind of stuff,

00:18:49.040 | sort of the libertarian view of the world.

00:18:53.240 | But it could just be being respectful

00:18:57.280 | and kind of each other,

00:18:59.240 | and kind towards each other,

00:19:00.440 | and loving towards each other.

00:19:02.720 | I mean, that's what I mean by cohesive.

00:19:04.660 | So when people say free, it's funny.

00:19:07.640 | Like freedom is a funny thing,

00:19:10.040 | because freedom can be painful to a lot of people.

00:19:14.280 | It all matters how you define it,

00:19:18.040 | how you implement it, how it actually looks like.

00:19:20.640 | And I'm just saying it feels like

00:19:23.640 | the mockery of the powerful

00:19:28.840 | leads to further and further divisions.

00:19:31.520 | It's like it's turning life into a game

00:19:36.400 | to where it's always,

00:19:38.600 | you're creating these different little tribes and groups,

00:19:43.080 | and you're constantly fighting the groups

00:19:48.080 | that become a little bit more powerful

00:19:50.320 | by undercutting them through guerrilla warfare

00:19:52.400 | kind of thing.

00:19:53.400 | And that's what the internet becomes,

00:19:54.920 | is everyone's just mocking each other.

00:19:56.880 | And then certain groups become more and more powerful,

00:19:59.280 | and then they start fighting each other.

00:20:01.960 | They form groups of ideologies,

00:20:05.600 | and they start fighting each other in the internet.

00:20:07.560 | Where the result is,

00:20:09.640 | it doesn't feel like the common humanity is highlighted.

00:20:14.560 | It doesn't feel like that's a path of progress.

00:20:19.360 | Now, when I say cohesive,

00:20:21.400 | I don't mean everybody has to be enforcing equality,

00:20:25.840 | all those kinds of ideas.

00:20:27.240 | I just mean not being so divisive.

00:20:30.620 | So it's going back to the original question of

00:20:34.440 | how do we put more love out in the world on the internet?

00:20:37.440 | - I want divisiveness.

00:20:39.800 | - Oh, so you think divisiveness is-

00:20:41.160 | - It's the goal. - That's very interesting.

00:20:42.160 | - It's the goal.

00:20:43.000 | So you started this conversation

00:20:44.920 | where you're talking about you have love

00:20:46.120 | for that small group.

00:20:47.440 | I think we both would agree

00:20:49.440 | to have a bigger group would be better,

00:20:50.720 | especially if that love comes from a sincere place.

00:20:53.560 | I think our country,

00:20:56.400 | I wrote an article about this four years ago,

00:20:57.680 | that it's time to disunite the states and to secede.

00:21:00.900 | This country has been held together

00:21:02.300 | with at least two separate cultures,

00:21:04.180 | with dumb text and string for over 20 years.

00:21:06.800 | There's an enormous amount of contempt

00:21:08.800 | from one group toward another.

00:21:10.800 | This contempt comes from sincere place.

00:21:12.880 | They do not share each other's values.

00:21:14.900 | There's absolutely no reason,

00:21:16.680 | just like any unhealthy relationship,

00:21:18.360 | where you can't say, you know what?

00:21:19.640 | It's not working out.

00:21:20.960 | I wanna go my own way and live my happiness.

00:21:24.400 | And I genuinely want you to go your way,

00:21:26.440 | live your happiness.

00:21:27.360 | If I'm wrong, prove me wrong.

00:21:28.820 | I'll learn from you and take lessons and vice versa.

00:21:31.860 | But the fact that we all have to be

00:21:33.320 | in the same house together is not coherent.

00:21:35.680 | And that's not love.

00:21:36.520 | That is the path towards friction and tension and conflict.

00:21:40.720 | - Do you think there is concrete groups?

00:21:43.960 | Like, is it as simple as the two groups of blue and red?

00:21:47.040 | - No, it's also very fluid,

00:21:49.920 | because you and I are allied as Jewish people,

00:21:53.560 | as Russians, as males, as podcasters.

00:21:57.040 | You're an academic, I'm not.

00:21:58.560 | So we're different, but we each are a Venn diagram,

00:22:02.800 | even within ourselves.

00:22:04.440 | And I can talk to you about politics,

00:22:07.000 | and then we can talk about Russia stuff,

00:22:08.640 | and then you could talk about your work,

00:22:10.840 | which I don't know anything about.

00:22:12.120 | So that would be where you're way up here

00:22:13.280 | and I'm way down here.

00:22:14.380 | So there's lots, every relationship

00:22:16.280 | with just between individuals, it's very dynamic.

00:22:18.920 | - So how do we secede?

00:22:20.660 | Like, how do we form individual states

00:22:22.640 | where there's a little bit more cohesion?

00:22:25.920 | - Sure, and voluntary cohesion.

00:22:27.720 | So the first step is to eliminate

00:22:31.620 | and the concept of political authority as legitimate,

00:22:35.400 | and to denigrate and humiliate those

00:22:38.240 | who would put themselves in a position

00:22:40.840 | in which they are there to tell you

00:22:42.600 | how to live your life from any semblance of validity.

00:22:46.600 | And that's starting to happen.

00:22:48.440 | If you look at what they had with the lockdowns,

00:22:50.680 | Cuomo and de Blasio, New York,

00:22:52.320 | I was tired a couple of weeks ago,

00:22:56.000 | and I said to my friend,

00:22:56.920 | "Oh, just click, maybe I have COVID."

00:22:58.440 | And he goes, "It's not possible."

00:22:59.480 | I go, "What do you mean?"

00:23:00.640 | And he goes, "We haven't had any deaths in like two months.

00:23:04.760 | And there's only like 100 cases a day for like two months."

00:23:08.080 | And I go, "You're exaggerating."

00:23:09.320 | 'Cause everything was still closed.

00:23:11.040 | And I looked at the numbers and he wasn't exaggerating.

00:23:13.900 | And there's no greater American dream to me

00:23:16.880 | than an immigrant family comes to the States,

00:23:19.920 | forms their own little business.

00:23:21.840 | Maybe mom's a good cook,

00:23:22.760 | has a restaurant, dry cleaner, fruit stand.

00:23:25.280 | And those people aren't gonna have a lot of money.

00:23:28.000 | Those are the first ones who lost their companies

00:23:30.320 | because of these lockdowns.

00:23:32.320 | Cuomo, who's the governor of New York,

00:23:35.120 | opened up the gyms.

00:23:36.400 | He said, "You're clear to open up."

00:23:38.040 | De Blasio said, "And we don't have enough inspectors.

00:23:40.340 | You're gonna have to wait another couple of weeks."

00:23:43.080 | To regard that as anything other than literally criminal

00:23:45.880 | is something that I am having a harder and harder time

00:23:49.480 | wrapping my head around.

00:23:51.120 | - You said, I mean, that's something

00:23:52.600 | I'm deeply worried about as well,

00:23:54.280 | which is like thousands,

00:23:56.680 | it's actually millions of dreams being crushed

00:23:59.880 | that American dream of starting a business,

00:24:02.400 | of running a business.

00:24:03.760 | - What about all the young people

00:24:05.160 | who you and I have in our audiences

00:24:07.760 | who are socially isolated at best,

00:24:10.120 | and now they can't leave their homes?

00:24:11.960 | Isolation and ostracism are things

00:24:15.120 | that are very well studied in psychology.

00:24:17.280 | These have extreme consequences.

00:24:19.360 | I read a book called "Ostracism,"

00:24:21.200 | and this wasn't scientific,

00:24:22.680 | but basically the author was a psychiatrist,

00:24:24.440 | psychologist, whatever.

00:24:25.560 | And he had one of his colleagues, they did an experiment.

00:24:27.940 | Let's for a week, you ostracize me completely.

00:24:30.640 | We know it's an, and he goes,

00:24:32.060 | even knowing it's the experiment,

00:24:34.040 | the fact that he wouldn't make eye contact with me

00:24:35.660 | and the fact that he ignored me

00:24:37.020 | had an extreme emotional impact on me.

00:24:40.900 | Knowing full well,

00:24:41.860 | this is purely for experimental purposes.

00:24:44.020 | Now you multiply that by all these, the suicide,

00:24:46.380 | the number of kids who were thinking about suicide

00:24:48.020 | was through the roof during all this.

00:24:50.340 | And my point is until these people,

00:24:53.300 | it's gonna, I would predict like 2024,

00:24:55.820 | that's where we're gonna have to start having conversations

00:24:57.860 | about what personal consequences

00:24:59.500 | have to be done for these people,

00:25:01.020 | because until then they're gonna do the same thing.

00:25:03.380 | - So you think there's going to be

00:25:04.580 | society-wide consequences of this

00:25:06.540 | that we're gonna see like ripple effects

00:25:08.840 | because of the social isolation?

00:25:10.460 | - I know, I mean, we also need to talk about consequences

00:25:13.340 | for Cuomo and de Blasio,

00:25:14.880 | because if politicians respond to incentives

00:25:17.700 | and the incentives are there for them

00:25:19.180 | to be extremely conservative,

00:25:20.820 | because if you have to choose,

00:25:21.980 | as Cuomo said in a press conference,

00:25:23.260 | between a thousand people dying

00:25:25.220 | and a thousand people losing their business,

00:25:26.500 | it's not a hard choice, and he's right.

00:25:28.380 | But at a certain point, it's like, all right,

00:25:30.900 | you're losing both, you're losing, not losing,

00:25:33.660 | you're making these decisions

00:25:35.140 | and not having consequences for it,

00:25:36.940 | and you're gonna do it again the next time,

00:25:38.780 | so we need to make sure you're a little scared.

00:25:41.220 | - Okay. - And I don't know

00:25:42.060 | what that would mean.

00:25:42.900 | - But you're laying this problem, this incompetence--

00:25:47.900 | - I don't think it's incompetence,

00:25:50.140 | I think it's very competent.

00:25:51.760 | I think their job is to be able--

00:25:52.600 | - It's malevolence. - Yes.

00:25:54.620 | - But you're laying it not at the hands of the individuals,

00:25:59.020 | but the structure of government.

00:26:01.420 | - It's both, yes.

00:26:02.360 | - How would we deal with it better

00:26:05.740 | without centralized control?

00:26:07.980 | - Well, we didn't really have centralized control,

00:26:09.460 | 'cause every country and every state

00:26:11.180 | handled it in a different mechanism.

00:26:12.820 | - But a city has centralized control.

00:26:14.940 | - Just, yeah. - Right.

00:26:16.260 | - No, that's not true.

00:26:17.100 | So Cuomo and de Blasio,

00:26:18.020 | they had a lot of disagreements over the months,

00:26:20.660 | and this was actually a source of great interest and tension.

00:26:23.520 | De Blasio wanted, at one point was talking about

00:26:26.180 | quarantining people in their homes.

00:26:27.860 | Cuomo was like, "You're crazy."

00:26:29.940 | Same thing with the schools, same thing with the gyms,

00:26:33.060 | and there were other such examples.

00:26:35.880 | But the point being, this was an emergency.

00:26:37.740 | This is World War I.

00:26:39.660 | I talked about this on Tim Pool's show,

00:26:41.940 | was very dangerous, because it gave a lot of evil people

00:26:45.720 | some very useful information

00:26:47.100 | about what the country put up with

00:26:49.220 | and what they can get away with under wartime.

00:26:51.180 | And this set the model for things like the New Deal

00:26:53.700 | and the other things of that nature.

00:26:55.920 | It is undeniable, you're a scientist,

00:26:57.520 | so you understand this perfectly well,

00:27:00.240 | that this lockdown gave some very nefarious people

00:27:04.060 | some very valid data about how much people

00:27:07.400 | will put up with under pressures from the state.

00:27:11.580 | - So fundamentally, what is the problem with the state?

00:27:16.120 | - Its existence.

00:27:17.280 | (Lex laughing)

00:27:19.320 | - Okay, well, but to play Angel's advocate again,

00:27:23.740 | government is the people.

00:27:27.880 | - That's it, come on.

00:27:28.880 | Do you really think this?

00:27:31.880 | - At its best, I think it's possible to have representation.

00:27:35.560 | - Can you imagine if you have an attorney?

00:27:37.200 | You're like, "Oh, you can't have the attorney you want.

00:27:38.720 | "You're gonna have this guy who you absolutely hate,

00:27:40.180 | "who you share no values with."

00:27:41.280 | Why?

00:27:42.320 | - Because he drives, I mean, leaders, political leaders,

00:27:45.280 | and political representation drive the discourse.

00:27:48.240 | Like the majority of people voted for him or whatever,

00:27:53.000 | however you define that.

00:27:55.040 | And now we get to have a discussion,

00:27:58.560 | well, was this the right choice?

00:28:01.120 | And then we get to make that choice again

00:28:02.720 | in four years and so on.

00:28:04.080 | - First of all, the fact that I have to be under the thumb

00:28:06.640 | of somebody for four years makes no sense.

00:28:09.160 | There's no other relationship that's like this,

00:28:10.680 | including a marriage.

00:28:12.200 | You can leave any other relationship at any time, number one.

00:28:15.320 | Number two is--

00:28:16.160 | - You could always impeach.

00:28:17.480 | - But they did that.

00:28:18.320 | - Part of it, I'm just saying that there's,

00:28:20.760 | yeah, the mechanisms are flawed in many ways, yeah.

00:28:24.400 | - Yeah, right.

00:28:25.480 | And so that's number one.

00:28:26.960 | Number two is it doesn't make sense

00:28:29.720 | that if I don't want someone to represent me,

00:28:32.880 | that because that person is popular,

00:28:35.240 | that they are now in a position to.

00:28:36.600 | So having representation and having citizenship

00:28:40.600 | based on geography is a pre-landline technology

00:28:44.320 | in a post-cellphone world.

00:28:45.840 | There's no reason why I have to,

00:28:48.080 | just 'cause we're physically between two oceans,

00:28:50.760 | we all have to be represented by the same people,

00:28:52.960 | whereas I can very easily have my security

00:28:55.520 | be under someone and switch it as easily

00:28:57.480 | as cell phone providers.

00:28:58.720 | - So, okay, but it doesn't have to be geographical.

00:29:01.080 | It can be ideas.

00:29:02.600 | - Sure.

00:29:03.440 | - I mean, this country represents a certain set of ideas.

00:29:05.280 | - Yes, it does.

00:29:06.120 | - It started out geographically.

00:29:07.720 | It still is geographic.

00:29:08.560 | - It was both.

00:29:09.380 | It started off as ideas as well.

00:29:10.220 | - But like, it was intricately,

00:29:12.520 | I mean, that's the way humans are.

00:29:14.680 | I mean, there was no internet.

00:29:17.160 | So it was, you were geographically in the same location,

00:29:19.800 | and you signed a bunch of documents,

00:29:21.200 | and then you kind of debated,

00:29:22.560 | and you wrote a bunch of stuff,

00:29:24.520 | and then you agreed on it.

00:29:26.520 | Okay, so--

00:29:27.360 | - You understand that no one signed these documents,

00:29:29.520 | and no one agreed to it,

00:29:30.720 | as Lysander Spooner pointed out over 150 years ago.

00:29:33.800 | The Constitution or the social contract, if anything,

00:29:36.800 | is only binding to the signatories,

00:29:38.980 | and even then, they're all long dead.

00:29:41.480 | So it's this fallacy that somehow,

00:29:43.720 | because I'm in a physical place,

00:29:45.880 | I have agreed, even though I'm screaming to you in the face

00:29:48.520 | that I don't agree, to be subordinate

00:29:50.880 | to some imaginary invisible monster

00:29:54.440 | that was created 250 years ago.

00:29:56.280 | And this idea of like, if you don't like it,

00:29:57.960 | you have to move, that's not what freedom means.

00:29:59.920 | Freedom means I do what I want, not what you want.

00:30:02.080 | So if you don't like it, you move.

00:30:04.560 | - Okay, just to put some, I don't like words and terms.

00:30:08.280 | - 111011101.

00:30:09.680 | - Yeah, exactly.

00:30:10.520 | - Is that what your language is?

00:30:11.600 | - It is.

00:30:12.440 | - I'm translating it all in real time.

00:30:14.520 | But would you call the kind of ideas

00:30:18.160 | that you're advocating for, and we're talking about, anarchy?

00:30:21.600 | - Yes, anarchism, yes.

00:30:23.360 | - Okay, so let's get into it.

00:30:24.600 | Can you try to paint the utopia

00:30:29.600 | that an anarchist worldview dreams about?

00:30:33.640 | - The only people who describe anarchism as utopia

00:30:36.280 | are its critics.

00:30:37.560 | If I told you right now,

00:30:39.640 | and I wish I could say this factually,

00:30:41.280 | that I have a cure for cancer,

00:30:42.880 | that would not make us a utopia.

00:30:45.220 | That would still probably be expensive.

00:30:47.280 | We would still have many other diseases.

00:30:49.040 | However, we would be fundamentally healthier,

00:30:51.900 | happier, and better off, all of us.

00:30:55.020 | - Than democracy.

00:30:56.100 | So, sorry, I jumped back from the cancer.

00:30:58.680 | - No, than democracy or government.

00:31:00.680 | So it's only curing one major,

00:31:03.680 | major life-threatening problem,

00:31:05.580 | but in no sense is it a utopia.

00:31:08.120 | - So what, can we try to answer this question,

00:31:12.160 | same question many times,

00:31:13.640 | which is what exactly is the problem with democracy?

00:31:17.680 | - The problem with democracy is that those who need leaders

00:31:20.000 | are not qualified to choose them.

00:31:21.640 | - Those who need leaders are not qualified to choose them.

00:31:27.680 | So--

00:31:29.120 | - That's the central problem with democracy.

00:31:30.560 | - Not all of us need leaders.

00:31:32.440 | - Right.

00:31:37.120 | What does it mean to need a leader?

00:31:38.640 | Are you saying like people who are actually

00:31:41.360 | like free thinkers don't need leaders kind of thing?

00:31:44.240 | - Sure.

00:31:45.500 | That's a good way of working.

00:31:47.560 | - Okay, so do you acknowledge that there's some value

00:31:51.920 | in authority in different subjects?

00:31:56.000 | So what that means is,

00:31:57.860 | I don't mean authority, somebody who's in control of you,

00:32:00.080 | but--

00:32:00.920 | - But you're doing the definition switch.

00:32:02.880 | - Yeah, I am, I am.

00:32:05.400 | You're right, you're right.

00:32:06.240 | It's unfair, okay, that was bad.

00:32:08.360 | - But that's what they do, that's their trick.

00:32:10.440 | And this is one of the useful things,

00:32:12.320 | by the way, let's just total sidebar.

00:32:14.180 | If people ask me for advice,

00:32:15.580 | I always tell them, if you're gonna raise your kids,

00:32:17.080 | raise them bilingual.

00:32:18.760 | Because I was trilingual by the time I was six,

00:32:20.880 | and that teaches you to think in concepts.

00:32:23.180 | Whereas if you only know one language,

00:32:24.780 | you fall for things like this,

00:32:26.240 | because using authority in the sense of a policeman

00:32:28.680 | and someone as authority in physics,

00:32:30.560 | it's the same word,

00:32:31.640 | conceptually they're extremely different.

00:32:33.600 | But if you're only thinking in one language,

00:32:35.520 | your brain is going to equate the two.

00:32:37.760 | And that's a trap

00:32:38.600 | that people who only speak one language have.

00:32:40.360 | - For sure.

00:32:41.200 | But even if you know multiple languages,

00:32:42.880 | you can still use the trick of using

00:32:44.520 | the worst of your convenience--

00:32:45.760 | - Yeah, absolutely.

00:32:46.600 | - To manipulate the conversation.

00:32:48.160 | - But you weren't trying to do that,

00:32:49.440 | but you fell into that.

00:32:50.280 | - I accidentally did it, yeah, you're right.

00:32:51.840 | - We all tend to do that if you only speak one language

00:32:54.040 | and think in one language.

00:32:55.080 | - But if, I guess, let me rephrase it.

00:32:57.640 | Are you against,

00:32:59.800 | do you acknowledge the value of offloading

00:33:04.980 | your own effort about a particular thing to somebody else?

00:33:09.320 | - Absolutely.

00:33:10.160 | Like an accountant, a lawyer, a doctor,

00:33:12.920 | absolute, a chef, infinite.

00:33:15.120 | - Isn't that ultimately what a democracy is?

00:33:18.600 | - No. - Broadly defined.

00:33:19.800 | Like you're basically electing a bunch of authorities--

00:33:23.000 | - Using the word you in two senses.

00:33:25.120 | Using the word you meaning me as an individual,

00:33:26.880 | not using you as a mass.

00:33:28.240 | - Yeah, as a mass, not you as an individual.

00:33:31.560 | - Right, so I would absolutely want someone

00:33:34.280 | to provide for my security.

00:33:35.720 | I would absolutely want someone to negotiate with me

00:33:38.200 | for foreign power or something like that.

00:33:39.880 | That does not mean it has to be predicated

00:33:42.480 | and what lots of other people who I do not know,

00:33:44.680 | and if I do know them, probably would not respect,

00:33:47.320 | think about.

00:33:48.200 | It's of no moral relevance to me, nor I to them.

00:33:52.800 | - Did you think this kind of,

00:33:54.280 | there could be a bunch of humans

00:33:56.880 | that behave kind of like ants in a distributed way,

00:34:01.480 | there could be an emergent behavior in them

00:34:04.920 | that results in a stable society?

00:34:07.480 | Isn't that the hope with anarchy

00:34:09.080 | is without an overarching--

00:34:12.360 | - But ants, I mean, ants are the worst example here

00:34:15.620 | 'cause ants have a very firm authority.

00:34:17.760 | - The queen? - Yeah.

00:34:18.880 | And they're all drones, they're all clones of each other.

00:34:22.420 | - Yeah, but so if you forget the queen,

00:34:24.920 | their behavior, they're all,

00:34:26.480 | (laughs)

00:34:27.680 | well, from your perspective,

00:34:29.040 | from your human intelligent perspective,

00:34:30.840 | but from their perspective,

00:34:31.840 | they probably see each other as a bunch of individuals.

00:34:33.960 | - No, they don't.

00:34:34.800 | Ants are very big on altruism

00:34:36.800 | in the sense of self-sacrifice.

00:34:38.460 | They do not think the individual matters.

00:34:42.480 | They routinely kill themselves

00:34:44.840 | for the sake of the hive and the community.

00:34:46.880 | - But they, see, that's from the outside perspective.

00:34:49.320 | From the individual, perspective of the individual,

00:34:51.600 | they probably, they don't see it as altruism.

00:34:56.600 | - Right, but they view, and they're right,

00:35:00.420 | 'cause the ant's life is very ephemeral and cheap,

00:35:02.840 | that it's more important to continue this mass population

00:35:06.280 | that one individual ant live.

00:35:08.760 | Like bees are another, an even better example.

00:35:10.640 | The honeybee, when they sting,

00:35:12.080 | they only sting once and they die.

00:35:13.760 | And they do it gladly 'cause it's like, okay,

00:35:16.060 | this community is much more important than me,

00:35:18.200 | and they're right.

00:35:19.880 | - Yeah, okay, so fine, let's forget.

00:35:22.320 | - I'm being pedantic, but it's important, I think.

00:35:24.480 | I'm not just being pedantic for the sake of being pedantic.

00:35:26.520 | - But there is something beautiful

00:35:27.680 | that I won't argue about

00:35:29.400 | 'cause I do, there's an interesting point there

00:35:31.960 | about individualism of ants.

00:35:33.440 | I do think they're more individual.

00:35:35.200 | But let's give your view of ants that they're communists.

00:35:40.200 | Okay, let's go with the communist view of ants.

00:35:42.720 | - Okay, yeah.

00:35:43.560 | - But there's still a beautiful emergent thing,

00:35:46.920 | which is like they can function as a society

00:35:51.360 | and without, I would say, centralized control.

00:35:56.280 | - Yeah, I agree with you.

00:35:58.640 | - That's another argument.

00:35:59.520 | So is that the hope for anarchy?

00:36:01.080 | It's like you just throw a bunch of people

00:36:03.240 | that voluntarily wanna be in the same place

00:36:05.560 | under the same set of ideas,

00:36:06.920 | and they kind of, the doctors emerge,

00:36:10.440 | the police officers emerge,

00:36:12.640 | the different necessary structures

00:36:15.200 | of a functional society emerge.

00:36:17.040 | - Do you know what the most beautiful example

00:36:19.120 | of anarchism is that is just beyond beautiful

00:36:22.560 | when you stop to think about it?

00:36:23.400 | - I don't see it, Twitter.

00:36:24.280 | - I'm not being tongue-in-cheek.

00:36:25.760 | Language.

00:36:28.080 | There's infinite languages.

00:36:29.760 | Language, the things that language can be used for

00:36:33.080 | are bring tears to people's eyes, quite literally.

00:36:36.280 | It's also used for basic things.

00:36:39.000 | No one is forcing us.

00:36:40.240 | We speak two languages each, at least.

00:36:42.680 | No one's forcing us to use English.

00:36:44.480 | No one's forcing us to use this dialect of English.

00:36:47.840 | It's a way, and despite there being

00:36:50.960 | so many different languages,

00:36:52.760 | a lingua franca emerge,

00:36:54.240 | you know, the language that everyone, Latin.

00:36:56.640 | Even in North Korea, they refer to the fish

00:36:59.120 | and the different animals by the Latin scientific.

00:37:01.640 | No one decided this.

00:37:03.840 | Sure, there's an organization

00:37:05.280 | that sets a binomial nomenclature,

00:37:07.280 | but there's no gun to anyone's head

00:37:08.920 | referring to sea moth as a pegasus species.

00:37:13.480 | And when you think about how amazing language is,

00:37:16.880 | and in some other context, we say like,

00:37:18.840 | well, you need to have a world government,

00:37:21.320 | and they're deciding which is the verbs,

00:37:23.240 | and you have to have an official definition

00:37:25.120 | and an official dictionary,

00:37:26.720 | and none of that's happened.

00:37:28.120 | And I think anyone, even if they don't agree

00:37:30.560 | with my politics or my worldview,

00:37:32.840 | cannot deny that the creation of language

00:37:35.800 | is one of humanity's most miraculous, beautiful achievements.

00:37:40.800 | - Absolutely, so there you go.

00:37:42.280 | There's one system where a kind of anarchy

00:37:45.960 | can result in beauty, stability,

00:37:49.560 | like sufficient stability, and yet dynamic flexibility

00:37:53.560 | to adjust it and so on.

00:37:55.680 | And the internet helps it.

00:37:57.640 | You get something like Urban Dictionary,

00:38:00.400 | which starts creating absurd, both humor and wit.

00:38:05.080 | - But also language and syntax and jargon.

00:38:07.360 | Immediately you size people up.

00:38:09.200 | If you say vertebral, I know you're a doctor,

00:38:12.080 | 'cause that's how they pronounce it, the spinal column.

00:38:15.040 | I'm sure in your field, there's certain jargon,

00:38:17.160 | and right away you can know

00:38:18.000 | if this person's one of us or not.

00:38:19.720 | I mean, it's infinite.

00:38:20.840 | I mean, I don't need to tell you anyone.

00:38:22.520 | - And emojis, too. - Yes, there's so much there

00:38:24.720 | to study with language, it's fascinating.

00:38:26.360 | - But do you think this applies to human life?

00:38:30.280 | The meat space, the physical space?

00:38:32.160 | - Yes.

00:38:33.000 | - So that kind of beauty can emerge

00:38:35.480 | without writing stuff on paper, without laws?

00:38:40.040 | - You could have rules.

00:38:40.880 | You don't have to be laws.

00:38:42.720 | - Enforced by violence.

00:38:45.200 | What's a law?

00:38:48.200 | - A law is something that is unchosen.

00:38:50.200 | A rule is something.

00:38:51.040 | If I go to my pool, I sign up to be a member of a pool,

00:38:55.040 | on the wall, it lists certain things.

00:38:56.440 | It's like, you know, certain number of people in the pool,

00:38:59.040 | no peeing in here, good luck enforcing that one,

00:39:02.040 | and so on and so forth.

00:39:03.120 | - Well, that's the problem.

00:39:04.120 | Aren't you afraid that people are gonna pee in the pool?

00:39:06.960 | - That's not as my big concern as mass incarceration,

00:39:10.960 | as the fact that the police can steal more money

00:39:13.280 | than burglars can, the fact that innocent people

00:39:16.040 | can be killed with no consequences,

00:39:18.280 | the fact that war can be waged,

00:39:20.360 | and with no consequences for those who waged it,

00:39:24.680 | the fact that so many men and women

00:39:26.160 | are being murdered overseas and here,

00:39:28.400 | and the people who are guiding these are regarded as heroic.

00:39:31.160 | - So you think that in an anarchist system,

00:39:34.520 | there's a possibility of having less wars and less,

00:39:39.520 | what would you say, corruption, and less abuse of power?

00:39:44.520 | - Let's talk, yes, and let's talk about corruption,

00:39:47.120 | because, and I made this point on Rogan,

00:39:49.920 | you and I, again, this is the Russian background,

00:39:52.000 | we realize that when it comes to corruption,

00:39:55.200 | America is very naive.

00:39:56.920 | Corruption, they think, is, oh, I got my brother a job

00:39:59.000 | and he's getting money under the table.

00:40:01.040 | That's not, when we're talking about state corruption,

00:40:04.200 | things that are done in totalitarian states,

00:40:06.080 | and even to some extent in America,

00:40:07.300 | like Jeffrey Epstein, Jillian Maxwell,

00:40:09.240 | things that Stalin did, things that Hitler did.

00:40:11.360 | You know, when the CIA was torturing people at Gitmo,

00:40:14.200 | they had to borrow KGB manuals

00:40:16.360 | 'cause they didn't know how to torture correctly,

00:40:17.740 | 'cause they never thought of these things.

00:40:19.320 | We, it's very hard for us to get into the mindset

00:40:23.360 | of someone who's like a child predator,

00:40:25.720 | someone who, let me give you an example

00:40:27.880 | from my forthcoming book.

00:40:28.840 | There was a guy who was the head of Ukraine in the '30s,

00:40:31.880 | I forget his name.

00:40:33.220 | Now, these old Soviets, they were tough.

00:40:34.880 | I mean, they pride, Stalin means steal,

00:40:36.680 | you know, they pride themselves in their cruelty

00:40:39.160 | and how strong they were, and this was the purge.

00:40:41.840 | You know, Stalin is trying to, you know,

00:40:43.160 | killing lots of people left and right,

00:40:44.840 | and his henchman Beria had the quote,

00:40:48.320 | "I'll find me the man and I'll find you the crime."

00:40:50.120 | You know, they would accuse someone

00:40:51.520 | and they would torture him until he talked and confessed,

00:40:54.640 | and then he had to turn people in.

00:40:56.480 | And they took this guy in, like, begin the year,

00:40:59.200 | I think it's '36, '38, he was head of Ukraine.

00:41:01.480 | By May, he's arrested.

00:41:02.960 | And they take him to the Lublanka,

00:41:04.200 | the basement in the Red Square,

00:41:05.480 | where they're torturing people,

00:41:06.680 | and they put, they did the works on him.

00:41:08.480 | And he was a good Soviet and he stood up,

00:41:10.200 | and who knows what they did to him?

00:41:12.440 | He didn't talk.

00:41:13.600 | So they said, "Okay, one moment."

00:41:16.320 | They brought his teenage daughter in,

00:41:18.240 | raped her in front of him, he talked.

00:41:20.720 | So when we talk about corruption,

00:41:23.200 | we would never in a million years think of this.

00:41:26.960 | That's not how our minds work.

00:41:28.480 | So when you're talking about states

00:41:32.000 | and people where you don't have ease of exit,

00:41:35.800 | where you are forced to be under the auspices

00:41:38.640 | of an organization creating a monopoly,

00:41:41.520 | that leads to, in extreme cases,

00:41:44.480 | but in not as extreme cases, really nefarious outcomes.

00:41:49.080 | Whereas if you have the option to leave

00:41:53.040 | as a client or customer,

00:41:54.920 | that would have a strongly limiting effect

00:41:58.080 | on how a business and what it can get away with.

00:42:01.480 | - But don't you think maybe,

00:42:03.240 | I don't know who the right example is,

00:42:04.680 | whether it's Stalin,

00:42:05.760 | I think Hitler might be the better example of,

00:42:08.880 | don't you think, or Jeffrey Epstein perhaps,

00:42:12.720 | don't you think people who are evil

00:42:15.280 | will find ways to manipulate human nature

00:42:20.280 | to attain power, no matter the system?

00:42:23.720 | - Yes.

00:42:24.720 | - And the corollary question is,

00:42:27.920 | do you think those people can get more power

00:42:31.280 | when there's a government already in place?

00:42:37.920 | - It's easily, they get more power,

00:42:39.320 | more dangerous to have a government in place.

00:42:40.760 | First of all, sociopaths are known for their charm

00:42:43.040 | and for their warmth.

00:42:44.720 | Here's the two situations.

00:42:46.200 | In a free society, I'm a sociopath, I'm an evil person,

00:42:51.000 | I'm the head of Macy's.

00:42:52.120 | In a state society, I'm an evil person, I'm a sociopath,

00:42:55.640 | I'm the head of the US government.

00:42:57.320 | Which of these are you more concerned with?

00:42:59.240 | It's like night and day.

00:43:00.560 | So you would have far more decentralized military,

00:43:03.320 | you would have far more decentralized security forces,

00:43:08.440 | and they would be much more subject to feedback

00:43:10.840 | from the market.

00:43:11.760 | If you have an issue with Macy's

00:43:14.800 | or any store with a sweater, look at that transaction.

00:43:18.320 | If you have an issue with the state,

00:43:20.880 | hiring a lawyer costs more than a surgeon.

00:43:22.880 | To even access the mechanism for dispute

00:43:25.640 | is going to be exorbitant and price poor people

00:43:27.760 | out of the market for a conflict resolution immediately.

00:43:30.960 | So right away, you have something

00:43:32.240 | that's extremely regressive.

00:43:34.680 | And even though this is touted as some great equalizer,

00:43:37.520 | it's quite the opposite.

00:43:38.800 | - So in current society,

00:43:39.880 | there's a deep suspicion of governments and states.

00:43:43.280 | - Not really.

00:43:45.240 | - Just your example of Macy's,

00:43:46.640 | I mean, don't you think a Hitler could rise

00:43:49.400 | to be at the top of a social network

00:43:51.600 | like Twitter and Facebook?

00:43:53.200 | - Okay, let's suppose Hitler ran Twitter, okay?

00:43:56.320 | Let's take this thought experiment seriously.

00:43:58.440 | Literally, what could he do?

00:43:59.760 | So the only tweets are gonna be about

00:44:01.360 | how much the Jews suck, right?

00:44:02.760 | Okay, fine.

00:44:04.440 | Okay, all the cool people are leaving.

00:44:07.040 | There could be some compelling, like you said,

00:44:10.440 | evil people are charming.

00:44:12.920 | There could be some compelling narratives

00:44:14.640 | that could be with conspiracy theories,

00:44:17.400 | untruths that could be spread like propaganda.

00:44:22.400 | - Every criticism of anarchism is in fact a description.

00:44:25.520 | Well, the strongest criticism of anarchism

00:44:27.400 | are in fact descriptions of the status quo.

00:44:29.360 | Your concern is under anarchism,

00:44:32.760 | propaganda would spread

00:44:34.120 | and people would be taught the wrong ideas

00:44:36.040 | unlike the status quo?

00:44:37.640 | - That's not even a criticism of anarchism.

00:44:39.920 | I'm not actually criticizing.

00:44:41.520 | It's an open question of,

00:44:43.640 | it's an open question of in which system

00:44:48.320 | will human nature thrive,

00:44:52.560 | be able to thrive more,

00:44:54.240 | and in which system would the evils

00:44:57.440 | that arise in human nature

00:44:59.200 | would be more easily suppressible?

00:45:01.320 | That's the open question.

00:45:03.240 | It's a scientific experiment

00:45:04.960 | and I'm asking only from a perspective

00:45:07.280 | of the fact that we've tried democracy

00:45:10.400 | quite a bit recently

00:45:12.200 | and maybe you can correct me,

00:45:14.280 | we haven't yet seriously tried anarchy in a large scale.

00:45:18.000 | - Well, we don't need to try to.

00:45:19.680 | So, anarchy isn't like a country, right?

00:45:21.760 | It's like saying, well, if anarchy works,

00:45:25.320 | how come we've never had an anarchist government, right?

00:45:27.280 | So, anarchism is a relationship

00:45:29.640 | and language is an example of this.

00:45:31.160 | It's a worldwide anarchic system.

00:45:32.720 | You and I have an anarchist relationship.

00:45:34.000 | There's almost no circumstances

00:45:35.400 | we'd be calling the police on each other.

00:45:37.400 | - I'm asking the same question

00:45:39.880 | in a bunch of different directions,

00:45:42.320 | born out of my curiosity,

00:45:44.360 | is why is anarchy going to be better

00:45:49.280 | at preventing the darker sides of human nature,

00:45:52.000 | which presumably a criticism of government.

00:45:54.720 | - Because of decentralization.

00:45:56.840 | So, the darker side of human nature is an extreme concern.

00:46:00.160 | Anyone who says it's gonna go away

00:46:01.800 | is absurd and fallacious.

00:46:04.080 | I think that's a non-starter

00:46:05.240 | when people say that everyone's gonna be good.

00:46:07.200 | Human beings are basically animals.

00:46:08.640 | We're capable of great beauty and kindness.

00:46:10.800 | We're capable of just complete, cruel,

00:46:13.640 | and what we would call inhumanity.

00:46:15.280 | But we see it on a daily basis even today.

00:46:17.880 | And what's interesting is the corporate press

00:46:21.320 | won't even tell you the darkest aspects

00:46:23.680 | because that's too upsetting to people.

00:46:25.280 | So, they'll tell you about atrocities and horrors,

00:46:27.680 | but only to a point.

00:46:29.280 | And then when you actually do the homework,

00:46:31.000 | you're like, "Oh, it's so much worse than."

00:46:32.600 | Like that thing about Stalin, right?

00:46:34.120 | So, we know in a broad sense that Stalin was a dictator.

00:46:38.040 | We know that he killed a lot of people,

00:46:41.080 | but it takes work to learn about the Holodomor.

00:46:44.040 | It takes work to learn

00:46:45.240 | about what those literal tortures were,

00:46:47.640 | and that this is the person who later,

00:46:49.680 | FDR and Harry Truman were shaking hands with

00:46:52.320 | and taking photos with,

00:46:53.360 | and was being sold to us as Uncle Joe.

00:46:55.360 | You know, he's just like you and me.

00:46:57.800 | So, when you have a decentralized information network,

00:47:02.800 | as opposed to having three media networks,

00:47:06.040 | it is a lot easier for information that doesn't fit

00:47:09.440 | what would be the corporate American narrative

00:47:11.640 | to reach the populations.

00:47:13.840 | And it would be more effective for democracy

00:47:16.360 | 'cause they're in a much better position to be informed.

00:47:18.400 | Now, you're right.

00:47:20.240 | It also means, well, if everyone has a mic,

00:47:22.240 | that means every crazy person and with their wacky views.

00:47:25.560 | And at a certain point, yeah, it has to become,

00:47:28.480 | then there's another level,

00:47:29.660 | which is then the people have to be self-enforcing.

00:47:32.120 | And you see that in social media all the time

00:47:34.040 | where someone says this, the other person jumps in.

00:47:37.240 | - You think, but isn't social media a good example of this?

00:47:40.640 | So, you think ultimately without centralized control,

00:47:44.980 | you can have stability?

00:47:47.320 | What about the mob outrage and the mob rule,

00:47:52.320 | the power of the mobs that emerge?

00:47:54.840 | - Power of the mob is a very serious concern.

00:47:58.760 | Gustav Le Bon wrote a book in the 1890s called "The Crowd."

00:48:01.520 | And this was one of the most important books I've written

00:48:03.480 | 'cause it influenced both Mussolini and Hitler and Stalin,

00:48:06.000 | and they all talked about it.

00:48:07.400 | And he made the point that under crowd psychology,

00:48:11.120 | human lynching is another example of this.

00:48:13.540 | None of those individuals or very few

00:48:16.160 | would ever dream of doing these acts.

00:48:19.560 | But when they're all together

00:48:21.200 | and you lose that sense of self, you become the ant

00:48:23.740 | and you lose that sense of individually,

00:48:25.760 | you're capable of doing things that like in another context,

00:48:29.120 | you'd be like, I should kill myself, I'm a monster.

00:48:32.280 | - So, you're worried about that,

00:48:33.400 | but doesn't the mob have more power under anarchy?

00:48:37.580 | - No, the mob has much less power in anarchy

00:48:39.840 | 'cause under anarchism, every individual is fully empowered.

00:48:43.380 | You wouldn't have gun restrictions.

00:48:47.960 | You would have people creating communities

00:48:50.060 | based on shared values.

00:48:51.840 | They would be much more collegial.

00:48:53.560 | They'd be much more kind as opposed to

00:48:56.280 | when you're forcing people to be together in a polity

00:48:59.400 | when they don't have things in common.

00:49:01.380 | That is like having a bad roommate.

00:49:03.740 | If you're forced to look like jails,

00:49:06.140 | if you're forced to be locked in a room with someone,

00:49:09.940 | even if you at first like them,

00:49:11.520 | after a while, you're going to start to hate them

00:49:13.520 | and that leads to very nefarious consequences.

00:49:16.820 | - So, as an anarchist,

00:49:18.240 | what do you do in a society like this?

00:49:21.160 | - Thrive.

00:49:22.760 | I think I'm doing okay.

00:49:23.920 | - I mean, there's an election coming up.

00:49:30.420 | As you talk, "You're Welcome"

00:49:36.080 | is one of the 15 shows that you host.

00:49:39.940 | (laughing)

00:49:42.200 | - It's down to one.

00:49:44.160 | - Okay, it's down to one.

00:49:46.020 | But I'm a big fan.

00:49:49.440 | - You talk about libertarianism a little bit.

00:49:52.480 | I mean, is there some practical political direction

00:49:57.480 | like in terms of ways the society should go?

00:50:01.120 | I don't mean we as a nation.

00:50:03.000 | I mean, we as a collective of people should go

00:50:05.720 | to make a better world from an anarchist point of view.

00:50:09.200 | - Sure, I think politics is the enemy.

00:50:12.220 | And anything--

00:50:14.000 | - How do you define politics?

00:50:14.820 | - The state, the government.

00:50:16.340 | So anything that lessens its sway on people,

00:50:19.960 | anything that delegitimizes it is good.

00:50:23.440 | I wrote an article a few years ago

00:50:25.400 | about how wonderful it is

00:50:26.960 | that Trump is regarded as such a buffoon

00:50:29.880 | because it's very, very useful

00:50:32.080 | to have a commander-in-chief who's regarded as a clown

00:50:35.160 | because it's gonna take a lot

00:50:37.280 | to get him to convince your kids to go overseas

00:50:39.920 | and start killing people and making widows and orphans,

00:50:42.320 | as well as those kids coming home in caskets.

00:50:44.440 | Whereas if someone is regarded with prestige

00:50:47.220 | and they're like, "Oh, we need to send your kid overseas."

00:50:49.700 | Oh, absolutely.

00:50:50.900 | I mean, this guy's great.

00:50:52.340 | So that is a very healthy thing

00:50:54.460 | where people are skeptical of the state.

00:50:57.120 | - But there's a lot of people that regard him

00:51:01.100 | as one of the greatest leaders we've ever had.

00:51:04.660 | - Yeah, Dinesh D'Souza, he's another Lincoln.

00:51:07.180 | - When you talk shit about Trump or talk shit about Biden,

00:51:13.580 | I'm trying to find a line to walk

00:51:16.840 | where they don't immediately put you into the,

00:51:19.720 | this person has Trump derangement syndrome

00:51:21.640 | or they have the alternative to that.

00:51:25.280 | - I'm more than happy

00:51:27.120 | when people are preemptively dismissing me

00:51:29.500 | because then I don't have to waste time engaging with them

00:51:31.600 | 'cause those people will be of no use to me.

00:51:33.640 | When I was on Tim Pool recently, Tim Pool's show,

00:51:36.540 | Tim Pool's known for his little hat.

00:51:38.760 | I got a propeller beanie motorized

00:51:40.520 | and it was just spinning the whole two hours.

00:51:42.560 | - I know, like a 1950s thing.

00:51:44.320 | The point being I wore it

00:51:46.040 | because there's lots of people who would say,

00:51:48.640 | I can't take seriously someone who wears a hat like that.

00:51:51.440 | And my point being, if you are the kind of person

00:51:53.680 | who takes your cues based on someone's wardrobe

00:51:56.720 | as opposed to the content of your ideas,

00:51:58.600 | you're of no use to me as an ally.

00:52:01.240 | So I'd be more than happy you preemptively abort

00:52:04.640 | rather than waste our breath trying to engage.

00:52:07.280 | - This is a very, very deep thing

00:52:09.000 | that you and I disagree on,

00:52:10.240 | which is this goes through the trolling

00:52:12.420 | versus the love is I believe that person

00:52:16.800 | instinctually dismisses you on the very basic surface level.

00:52:21.360 | But deep down, there actually,

00:52:23.840 | there's a wealth of a human being that seeks the connection,

00:52:28.840 | that seeks to understand deeply,

00:52:32.360 | to connect with other humans that we should speak to.

00:52:36.040 | - Yeah, you and I completely disagree.

00:52:38.240 | - So you're saying--

00:52:40.040 | - I'm saying there's no mind there literally.

00:52:42.400 | - Okay, so let's, I naturally think the majority--

00:52:46.200 | So I naturally think the majority of people

00:52:48.640 | have the capacity to be thoughtful, intelligent,

00:52:54.840 | and learn about ideas,

00:52:59.920 | ideas that they instinctually,

00:53:02.000 | based on their own current inner circle, disagree with,

00:53:07.000 | and learn to understand, to empathize with the other.

00:53:11.120 | And in the current climate,

00:53:13.520 | there's a divisiveness that discourages that.

00:53:15.720 | And that's where I see the value of love,

00:53:18.360 | of encouraging people to strip away

00:53:24.760 | that surface instinctual response

00:53:27.320 | based on the thing they've been taught,

00:53:29.520 | based on the things they listen to,

00:53:31.160 | to actually think deeply.

00:53:32.640 | - Have you ever had, gone to CVS or Duane Reade,

00:53:36.920 | and your bill, how much you owe them is $6,

00:53:40.280 | and you give them a $10 bill and a single,

00:53:42.280 | and watch the look on their face?

00:53:44.560 | You watch them void their bowels and panic

00:53:46.800 | because you've given them $11 on a $6 bill?

00:53:49.640 | This is not a mind capable or interested

00:53:52.600 | in thoughts and ideas and learning.

00:53:54.300 | - No, you're talking about the first moment

00:53:57.040 | of a first moment where there's an opportunity to think.

00:54:02.040 | - They are desperate to avoid it.

00:54:04.180 | - No, they're just--

00:54:07.120 | - And incapable of it.

00:54:10.200 | - They have the same exact experience

00:54:12.400 | as I have every single day

00:54:14.140 | when I know it's time for me to go out on a run

00:54:17.000 | of five miles or six miles or 10 miles.

00:54:20.360 | I'm desperate to avoid it,

00:54:22.200 | and at the same time, I know I have the capacity to do it,

00:54:26.800 | and I'm deeply fulfilled when I do do it,

00:54:29.000 | when I do overcome that challenge.

00:54:30.400 | - You are one of the great minds of our generation.

00:54:33.240 | You are telling me that any of these people

00:54:35.100 | can do anything close to the work you do?

00:54:38.240 | - Not in artificial intelligence,

00:54:39.820 | but in the ability to be compassionate

00:54:44.820 | towards other people's ideas,

00:54:48.360 | like understand them enough to be able--

00:54:50.480 | - Passion requires a certain baseline of intelligence,

00:54:53.400 | 'cause you have to perceive other people

00:54:54.720 | as being different but of value.

00:54:56.080 | - Yeah, exactly.

00:54:56.920 | - That's a sophisticated mindset.

00:54:59.560 | - I think most people are capable of it.

00:55:03.280 | You don't think so?

00:55:04.120 | - No, and nor are they interested in it.

00:55:06.760 | But in that kind of, if you don't believe

00:55:09.900 | they're capable of it, how can anarchy be stable?

00:55:14.060 | - If you have a farm, there's one farmer and 50 cows.

00:55:18.260 | It's very stable.

00:55:19.540 | You're not asking the cows where to farm things.

00:55:23.620 | - Yeah, but the cows aren't intelligent enough to do damage.

00:55:29.620 | - Cows certainly, bulls, 'cause they could do a lot of damage.

00:55:32.460 | They could trample things, they could attack you.

00:55:34.860 | Cows are like, how much do they weigh, like 4,000 pounds?

00:55:37.000 | - Can you connect the analogy then?

00:55:38.520 | Because like--

00:55:39.360 | - Sure, you can't expect it.

00:55:41.640 | Saying a cow's a cow isn't a slur.

00:55:44.680 | It's not saying you hate cows.

00:55:46.120 | Let's take, the example I always use

00:55:48.880 | with good reason is dogs, okay?

00:55:50.580 | I always say to study how human beings operate,

00:55:53.720 | watch Cesar Millan, 'cause human beings

00:55:55.960 | and dogs have co-evolved.

00:55:57.120 | Our minds have both evolved in parallel tracks

00:55:59.520 | to communicate with each other.

00:56:00.920 | Dogs can be vicious.

00:56:03.540 | Dogs, for the most part, are great, wonderful,

00:56:06.360 | but you can't expect the dog to understand certain concepts.

00:56:11.360 | And now most people are offended,

00:56:13.040 | are you saying I'm like a dog?

00:56:14.160 | If you're a dog person like I am,

00:56:15.880 | this is actually a huge compliment.

00:56:17.080 | Most dogs are better than most people.

00:56:19.800 | But to get the idea that this is something

00:56:22.940 | that is basically your peer is nonsensical.

00:56:26.640 | Now, of course, this sounds arrogant and elitist

00:56:28.400 | and so on and so forth, and I'm perfectly happy with that,

00:56:31.320 | but it is very hard to persuade me or anyone

00:56:34.460 | that if you walk, George Carlin has that joke,

00:56:36.460 | think how smart the average person is,

00:56:37.940 | then realize 50% of people are dumber than that.

00:56:40.380 | If you walk around and see who's out there,

00:56:42.180 | these people are very kind, they are of value,

00:56:45.060 | they deserve to be treated with respect,

00:56:47.820 | they deserve to be secure in their person,

00:56:49.860 | they deserve to feel safe and to have love,

00:56:52.860 | but the expectation that they should have

00:56:56.380 | any sort of semblance of power over me or my life

00:56:59.220 | is as nonsensical as asking Lassie to be my accountant.

00:57:03.120 | - So, but that goes to power,

00:57:05.980 | that not to the ability, the capacity

00:57:09.900 | to be empathetic, compassionate, intelligent.

00:57:12.900 | What, if I were to try to prove you wrong--

00:57:16.200 | - That's a good question, okay.

00:57:17.900 | - What would you be impressed by about society?

00:57:22.260 | How would I show it to you?

00:57:25.780 | - That's a good question, how would you show it to me?

00:57:27.220 | 'Cause I think something has to be falsifiable

00:57:28.980 | if you're gonna make a claim, right?

00:57:30.700 | So, what would it, what would it--

00:57:32.980 | - 'Cause we both made claims that aren't a kind of

00:57:37.420 | our own interpretation based on our interaction.

00:57:40.740 | Like when I open Twitter, everyone seems to say--

00:57:43.660 | - Why do you only follow one person?

00:57:44.820 | Who do you follow?

00:57:45.640 | Who's the one person you follow?

00:57:46.780 | - Stoic Emperor, I follow a lot of people.

00:57:49.660 | I have a script that-- - Oh, secretly?

00:57:50.660 | - I have a script that-- - Of course you do.

00:57:52.940 | I'm a robot.

00:57:53.780 | - I have an entire interface.

00:57:55.880 | So I think Twitter's really--

00:57:58.780 | - This is real love, it's not ironic love.

00:58:00.940 | I love watching it, and I'm sure you do too.

00:58:04.220 | I love watching a quality mind at work.

00:58:06.400 | Because when someone has a quality mind,

00:58:08.300 | they're often not self-aware.

00:58:10.380 | I catch this on myself of how it operates.

00:58:12.820 | And then when other people see it,

00:58:13.940 | they're like, oh my God, this is so beautiful.

00:58:15.460 | 'Cause there's such an innocence to it.

00:58:17.380 | - But like when I open Twitter, I'm energized.

00:58:21.780 | There's a lot of love on Twitter.

00:58:23.200 | People say like-- - I love, I agree.

00:58:25.420 | You don't think I have a lot of love on Twitter?

00:58:27.100 | My fans pay my rent.

00:58:29.020 | - I mean, I don't know your experience of Twitter,

00:58:32.420 | but when I look at your,

00:58:33.460 | which is a fundamentally different thing.

00:58:35.580 | I'm saying my experience from the,

00:58:37.620 | so maybe you can tell me what your experience is like

00:58:39.580 | as a human.

00:58:40.420 | So when I observe your Twitter, I think,

00:58:44.380 | I wouldn't call it love.

00:58:48.060 | I would call it fun.

00:58:50.460 | - Yes. - And because of that,

00:58:53.300 | that's a different kind of, like love emerges from that.

00:58:56.880 | Because people kind of learn that we're having,

00:59:00.540 | this is like game night.

00:59:01.820 | Like-- - Yes.

00:59:03.020 | - We can talk shit a little bit.

00:59:06.380 | - Yes. - We can,

00:59:07.660 | and you can even like pull in, you can make fun of people.

00:59:11.620 | You can have the crazy uncle come over

00:59:13.820 | that is a huge Trump supporter,

00:59:16.740 | somebody who hates Trump, and you can have a little fun.

00:59:19.220 | - Yes. - I get it.

00:59:20.060 | It's a different kind of thing.

00:59:21.420 | I wouldn't be able to be the,

00:59:25.380 | you're the host of game night?

00:59:26.860 | - Yes, yes.

00:59:27.700 | - So I wouldn't be able to host that kind of game night?

00:59:30.580 | - I'm imagining you programming your robots,

00:59:32.860 | and you're asking, "What is fun?"

00:59:34.340 | And it just starts sparking.

00:59:35.900 | - Exactly.

00:59:36.740 | (laughing)

00:59:37.580 | - What is fun?

00:59:38.420 | (laughing)

00:59:40.260 | - So the robots in my life that survive

00:59:42.500 | are the ones that don't,

00:59:45.740 | that like survive that whole programming process.

00:59:49.860 | So they're kind of like the idiot from Dusty F. Ski.

00:59:52.940 | They're very like simple-minded robots.

00:59:56.340 | - It's just--

00:59:57.180 | - Fun is moving a can from one table to another.

00:59:59.900 | - Yeah, that's game night for our kin.

01:00:03.460 | - You know what one of my quotes is,

01:00:04.740 | and I think about this every day,

01:00:06.460 | and I mean it with every fiber of my being.

01:00:09.220 | We're born knowing that life is a magical adventure,

01:00:11.560 | and it takes them years to train us to think otherwise.

01:00:14.820 | And I think that Willy Wonka approach,

01:00:16.600 | it's a very Camus approach.

01:00:17.860 | It's something I believe with every fiber of my being.

01:00:20.700 | I try to spread that as much as possible.

01:00:22.820 | I think it is very sad.

01:00:24.620 | I'm not being sarcastic.

01:00:25.700 | It comes off as condescending.

01:00:27.500 | I mean it at face value.

01:00:28.980 | It's very sad how many people are not receptive to that.

01:00:31.740 | And I think a lot of those functions, how they were raised.

01:00:34.060 | And I could have very easily with my upbringing

01:00:37.020 | have not maintained that perspective.

01:00:40.340 | And there's a lot of,

01:00:42.700 | I have a lot of friends in recovery, like AA,

01:00:45.180 | and they have an expression,

01:00:46.900 | "Not my circus, not my monkeys," right?

01:00:49.220 | That you can't really take on other people's problems

01:00:51.940 | on your own at a certain point.

01:00:53.100 | They have to do the work themselves

01:00:54.580 | 'cause you can only do so much externally.

01:00:56.860 | And there are a lot of very damaged people out there.

01:01:00.580 | And there are damaged people who revel in being damaged.

01:01:04.460 | And there are damaged people who desperately,

01:01:07.020 | desperately, desperately wanna be well,

01:01:08.980 | who desperately wanna be happy,

01:01:10.300 | who desperately wanna find joy.

01:01:12.180 | So if I can be the one,

01:01:14.260 | and as arrogant as this sounds, I'll own it,

01:01:16.580 | who does give them that fun,

01:01:18.420 | and to tell them it doesn't have to be like you thought.

01:01:21.100 | Like it could be, it's gonna hurt, it's gonna suck,

01:01:24.140 | but it's still a magical adventure,

01:01:25.820 | and you're gonna be okay 'cause you've been through worse.

01:01:28.100 | Like that, if that could be my message,

01:01:30.060 | I would own it all day long.

01:01:32.020 | - And so what does adventure look like for you?

01:01:35.580 | 'Cause I mean, it actually boils down to,

01:01:37.220 | I still disagree with you.

01:01:38.620 | I think trolling can be,

01:01:41.860 | and very often is destructive for society.

01:01:45.020 | - Yes, I want to destroy society.

01:01:46.740 | That is the goal.

01:01:47.580 | I want to help many people.

01:01:50.780 | - Unironically, okay.

01:01:51.820 | - Unironically, yes.

01:01:53.940 | - Ah, what do I do with that?

01:01:55.860 | Okay, so--

01:01:56.700 | - Whatever you want, do what thou wilt,

01:01:58.020 | is the hall of the law.

01:01:59.180 | - Like I just wanna, so you're hosting game night,

01:02:02.420 | and I just wanna play Monopoly.

01:02:04.140 | I wanna play, what's it, Risk.

01:02:07.540 | Okay, I wanna play these games, and you're saying--

01:02:09.380 | - Those are aggressive games.

01:02:10.540 | - Yeah, I was trying to think of a friendlier game,

01:02:12.780 | but they're all kind of aggressive.

01:02:14.540 | - Battleship.

01:02:16.460 | (both laughing)

01:02:17.700 | Axis and allies, you know, fun stuff.

01:02:20.780 | But like, so that's an adventure,

01:02:24.260 | but you're saying that we wanna destroy everything,

01:02:27.820 | even like the rules of those games are not--

01:02:31.220 | - No, you voluntarily agree to those rules.

01:02:33.500 | The point is, if someone comes in

01:02:35.260 | who no one invited to game night,

01:02:37.460 | and are telling you, "No, when you play Monopoly,

01:02:40.060 | "you have to get money when you land in free parking,"

01:02:42.780 | or you don't, it's like, who are you?

01:02:45.380 | We're having our own fun, and you smell.

01:02:49.740 | - I don't know, but there's an aggressive--

01:02:52.980 | - There's an aggression, let me speak to that,

01:02:54.700 | which I think you're picking up on.

01:02:56.500 | I had a friend named Martha, Marsha, excuse me,

01:02:58.460 | she ran something called cuddle parties,

01:02:59.780 | which people laughed at a lot back in the day.

01:03:02.060 | And the premise of the cuddle party

01:03:03.220 | is everyone got together and cuddled, right?

01:03:04.820 | And it's like, "Ah ha ha."

01:03:05.740 | Then you stop to think about it, and you realize,

01:03:07.780 | physical contact's extremely important,

01:03:09.660 | and a lot of people don't have it.

01:03:11.060 | And if this is a mechanism of people getting that,

01:03:12.740 | it actually is going to have

01:03:13.580 | profound positive psychological consequences.

01:03:15.420 | So after she explained it, I'm like,

01:03:16.540 | "Okay, we laughed at this 'cause it's weird,

01:03:18.540 | "and now that I think about it, this is wonderful."

01:03:20.580 | And I asked her about the tough question,

01:03:23.580 | I go, "What if guys get turned on?"

01:03:25.820 | And on their website, it even has a rule,

01:03:27.660 | like, "Do not fear the erection," right?

01:03:28.860 | 'Cause it's gonna be a natural consequence

01:03:30.220 | of physical proximity.

01:03:31.460 | And the point she goes, she said this,

01:03:33.020 | and I think about this all the time,

01:03:34.460 | "People will take as much space as you let them.

01:03:38.520 | "It is incumbent on each of us to set our own boundaries.

01:03:42.780 | "We all have to learn when to say no,

01:03:44.700 | "you're making me uncomfortable.

01:03:46.200 | "If someone doesn't respect your right

01:03:48.420 | "to have your boundary to be uncomfortable,

01:03:50.140 | "this person is not your friend."

01:03:51.820 | Now, they can say, "I don't understand.

01:03:54.260 | "Like, why is this okay?

01:03:55.420 | "Why is that not?

01:03:56.320 | "Let me know you better so I'm respectful of you."

01:03:59.300 | But if they roll their eyes and they're like,

01:04:00.960 | "Get over, I'm gonna do what I want,"

01:04:02.340 | this person is not interested in knowing

01:04:04.260 | who's a human being.

01:04:05.260 | - Okay. - And that is the aggression.

01:04:08.820 | You have to draw those lines.

01:04:10.260 | - I mean, but that's a very positive way

01:04:13.420 | of phrasing that aggression.

01:04:14.900 | - I'm a very positive person.

01:04:17.020 | But the trolling, there's a destructive thing to it

01:04:20.420 | that hurts others.

01:04:22.740 | But it's not bad people.

01:04:25.380 | - I only troll as a reaction or towards those in power.

01:04:28.500 | - Okay, so maybe let's talk about trolling a little bit.

01:04:31.100 | Because trolling, when it can, maybe you can correct me,

01:04:36.020 | but I've seen it become a game for people

01:04:38.020 | that's enjoyable in itself.

01:04:41.120 | - I disagree with that.

01:04:44.320 | That's not a good thing.

01:04:45.540 | If you are there just to hurt innocent people,

01:04:48.740 | you are a horrible human being.

01:04:50.860 | - But doesn't trolling too easily become that?

01:04:53.940 | - I don't know about easily.

01:04:55.940 | Let me give you an example of where trolling came from.

01:04:58.760 | The original troll was Andy Kaufman.

01:05:01.180 | He was on the show "Taxi."

01:05:02.740 | He was a performance artist, not a standard comedian.

01:05:05.500 | And this is a quintessential example of trolling.

01:05:08.020 | He had a character where he was basically

01:05:10.740 | like a lounge singer.

01:05:11.580 | He had these glasses on and just a terrible singer

01:05:14.980 | and so on and so forth.

01:05:15.820 | And he denied it was him.

01:05:17.040 | And he came out and I'm blanking on the guy's name.

01:05:21.380 | I can't believe it.

01:05:22.220 | Tony Clifton.

01:05:23.040 | - Wow. - Yeah.

01:05:23.980 | - He came out in the audience and he goes,

01:05:25.660 | "You know, my wife died a few years ago.

01:05:28.180 | Every time I look at my daughter Sarah's eyes,

01:05:29.900 | I can see my wife.

01:05:30.780 | Sarah, come out here.

01:05:31.620 | Let's do a duet."

01:05:32.580 | And Sarah was like 11, sits on his lap.

01:05:35.060 | They start singing duet.

01:05:36.460 | Her voice cracks.

01:05:37.620 | He smacks her across the face.

01:05:38.980 | "What the hell are you doing?

01:05:39.940 | You're making an ass out in front of these people."

01:05:42.260 | She starts crying.

01:05:43.600 | The audience is booing and he goes,

01:05:45.500 | "Don't boo her.

01:05:46.340 | You're just gonna make her cry more."

01:05:47.700 | Now it ends.

01:05:50.220 | This wasn't his daughter.

01:05:51.380 | It wasn't even a child.

01:05:52.220 | It was an actress.

01:05:53.040 | This was all set up.

01:05:53.880 | He's exploiting their love of children

01:05:57.340 | in order to force them to be performers.

01:05:59.380 | That is trolling.

01:06:01.060 | No one is actually getting hurt.

01:06:02.820 | It's a humorous though twisted exchange.

01:06:05.780 | If you go online looking for weak people

01:06:10.340 | and you are there to denigrate them

01:06:13.080 | just for them being weak or in some way inferior to you,

01:06:16.520 | that is the wrong approach.

01:06:18.840 | I am best on the counterpunch.

01:06:21.400 | A lot of times people come to me

01:06:23.520 | and they'll be like, "I hope you die.

01:06:24.960 | You're ugly.

01:06:25.800 | You're disgusting."

01:06:26.620 | And there's this great quote from Billy Idol,

01:06:28.160 | which I'm gonna mangle.

01:06:29.000 | He's something effective.

01:06:30.200 | "I love it when people are rude to me,

01:06:31.720 | then I can stop pretending to be nice."

01:06:33.640 | Then you start fights.

01:06:35.480 | Now it's a chance for me to finish it

01:06:37.280 | and make an example of this person.

01:06:39.000 | So that's very, very different from,

01:06:40.940 | I'm gonna go around and humiliate people

01:06:43.020 | for the sake of doing it, in my view.

01:06:45.160 | And I can see how one would lead to the other.

01:06:48.540 | - Yeah, but that's my fundamental concern with it.

01:06:50.980 | So my dream is to put, use technology,

01:06:54.860 | create platforms that increase

01:06:59.020 | the amount of love in the world.

01:07:00.580 | And to me, trolling is doing the opposite.

01:07:06.060 | So like Andy Kaufman is brilliant.

01:07:09.840 | So I love, obviously, it sounds like I'm a robot saying,

01:07:13.000 | I love humor, okay?

01:07:14.260 | Humor is good.

01:07:16.600 | (both laughing)

01:07:18.400 | - One, one, one, zero, one, one, one, one.

01:07:21.080 | - But like, it's, I just see like 4chan.

01:07:25.640 | I see that you can often see that humor quickly turn.

01:07:29.520 | - Yeah, because what happens is a lot of low status people,

01:07:31.980 | this is their one mechanism through sadism,

01:07:34.980 | to feel empowered, and then they can hide behind,

01:07:38.480 | well, I'm just joking.

01:07:40.120 | - Yeah, like there's this dark thing.

01:07:41.440 | - Yeah, that's not acceptable.

01:07:42.560 | - There's a dark LOL that people do,

01:07:45.840 | which is like, they'll say like the shittiest thing.

01:07:49.080 | - Right, 'cause they feel-- - And then do LOL after.

01:07:51.080 | Like, as if, I don't even know,

01:07:54.040 | like what is happening in the dark mind of yours.

01:07:56.960 | - Because they are feeling powerless in their lives.

01:08:00.000 | - Right.

01:08:00.820 | - And they see someone who they perceive

01:08:02.200 | as higher status or more powerful than them,

01:08:03.600 | or even not appear, and they, through their words,

01:08:07.040 | cause a reaction in this person,

01:08:09.500 | so they feel like they are, in a very literal sense,

01:08:11.680 | making a difference on Earth,

01:08:12.920 | and they matter in a very dark way.

01:08:15.220 | It's disturbing.

01:08:16.400 | This is not, I mean, it's unfortunate

01:08:18.240 | that that term trolling is used for that,

01:08:21.200 | as opposed to what Andy Kaufman does,

01:08:22.960 | as opposed to what I do.

01:08:24.420 | It really is a sinister thing,

01:08:29.060 | and it's something I'm not at all a fan of.

01:08:31.640 | - How do we fight that?

01:08:33.840 | So, like, a neighboring concept of that

01:08:37.240 | is conspiracy theories, which is--

01:08:39.760 | - I don't think they're neighboring at all.

01:08:41.640 | - Well, let me give a sort of naive perspective.

01:08:45.280 | Maybe you can educate me on this.

01:08:46.600 | From my perspective, conspiracy theories

01:08:49.760 | are these constructs of ideas

01:08:52.880 | that go deeper and deeper and deeper

01:08:55.440 | into creating worlds where, you know,

01:09:00.440 | worlds where there's powerful pedophiles

01:09:05.120 | controlling things, like these very sophisticated models

01:09:10.120 | of the world that, you know, in part might be true,

01:09:14.160 | but in large part, I would say,

01:09:15.960 | are figments of imagination

01:09:18.560 | that become really useful constructs--

01:09:22.080 | - And self-reinforcing.

01:09:23.160 | - Self-reinforcing, for then feeding,

01:09:26.640 | like empowering the trolls to attack

01:09:31.440 | the powerful, the conventionally powerful.

01:09:34.920 | - I don't think that that's a function

01:09:36.400 | of conspiracy theories.

01:09:37.240 | Now, let's talk about conspiracy theories,

01:09:38.720 | 'cause one of my quotes is, "You take one red pill,

01:09:40.560 | "not the whole bottle."

01:09:41.960 | This concept that everything in life

01:09:45.600 | is at the function of a small cadre of individuals

01:09:50.520 | would be, for many people, reassuring,

01:09:53.220 | because as bad as it looks, you know they,

01:09:55.920 | whoever they are, it's usually the Jews,

01:09:57.960 | aren't gonna let it get that bad, that they will pull back.

01:10:00.880 | Or the black pill is that they aren't intentionally

01:10:05.880 | trying to destroy everything,

01:10:07.320 | and there's nothing we can do when we're doomed.

01:10:08.920 | And there's an amazing book by Arthur Herman

01:10:10.520 | called "The Idea of Declined Western History."

01:10:12.880 | It's one of my top 10 books,

01:10:14.360 | where he goes through every 20 years

01:10:16.400 | how there's a different population that say,

01:10:18.240 | "It's the end of the world, here's the proof."

01:10:20.680 | And very often, the proof is something

01:10:22.160 | that is kind of self-fulfilling,

01:10:24.120 | where it's not falsifiable.

01:10:26.600 | And we both have to think of ways

01:10:27.800 | to falsify our claims from earlier.

01:10:29.720 | So it is a big danger.

01:10:32.560 | It's a big danger online, because very quickly,

01:10:35.880 | if someone who you thought was good,

01:10:38.620 | but now is bad on one aspect,

01:10:40.320 | well, they're controlled opposition,

01:10:41.840 | or they've been taken over,

01:10:44.140 | or they've been kind of appropriated by the bad people,

01:10:47.800 | whoever those bad people would be.

01:10:49.960 | I don't know that I have a good answer for this.

01:10:52.920 | I don't think it's as pervasive as people think.

01:10:56.040 | - The number of people who believe conspiracy theory?

01:10:57.840 | - Right, I mean, and also conspiracy theory

01:11:00.200 | is a term used to dismiss ideas that have some currency.

01:11:04.260 | The Constitutional Convention was a conspiracy.

01:11:06.820 | The Founding Fathers got together secretly,

01:11:08.480 | under word of secrecy in Philadelphia,

01:11:10.080 | said, "We're throwing out the Articles of Confederation,

01:11:11.520 | "we're making a new government," right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:11:13.000 | And Luther Martin left, and he told everyone,

01:11:15.280 | "This is a conspiracy," and they're like,

01:11:16.540 | "Yeah, whatever, Luther Martin."

01:11:17.880 | So, and Jeffrey Epstein was a conspiracy,

01:11:20.160 | Harvey Weinstein was a conspiracy,

01:11:21.720 | Bill Cosby was a conspiracy.

01:11:22.720 | They all knew, they didn't care.

01:11:24.880 | Communist infiltration in America,

01:11:26.600 | there's a great book by Eugene Lyons

01:11:28.760 | called "The Red Decade."

01:11:30.160 | They all knew every atrocity that was done under Stalinism

01:11:35.160 | was excused in the West, and if you didn't believe it,

01:11:37.960 | oh, you've got this crazy anti-Russia conspiracy.

01:11:40.280 | So, it's a term that is weaponized in a negative sense,

01:11:43.700 | but that does not at all imply

01:11:45.640 | that it does not have very negative real-life consequences,

01:11:49.200 | because it's kind of a cult of one, right?

01:11:52.280 | Like, I'm at home on my computer,

01:11:54.080 | I buy into this ideology, anyone who doesn't agree with me,

01:11:58.200 | they are blind, they're oblivious, mom and dad, my friends,

01:12:01.760 | you don't get it, we were warned about people like you,

01:12:05.280 | and I think there's a very heavy correlation,

01:12:08.440 | and I'm not a psychiatrist, of course,

01:12:10.040 | between that and certain types of mild mental illness,

01:12:12.480 | like some kind of paranoid schizophrenia,

01:12:14.640 | things like that, because after a certain point,

01:12:17.160 | if everything is a function of this conspiracy,

01:12:20.240 | there's no randomness or beauty in life.

01:12:22.920 | - Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you can say

01:12:25.200 | anything interesting about it in the way of advice

01:12:28.160 | of how to take a step into conspiracy theory world

01:12:33.160 | without completely going, like diving deep,

01:12:37.540 | because it seems like that's what happens.

01:12:39.720 | People can't look at Jeffrey Epstein--

01:12:42.520 | - I can tell you the advice I'd have to--

01:12:44.160 | - Seriously and rigorously, without going,

01:12:48.040 | 'cause you can look at Jeffrey Epstein

01:12:49.760 | and say there's a deeper thing, you can always go deeper.

01:12:53.840 | It's like Jeffrey Epstein was just a tool

01:12:55.840 | of the lizard people, and the lizard people are the tool--

01:12:59.760 | - Well, they say Satanists, in this case.

01:13:02.920 | - And somehow, recently, very popular,

01:13:06.480 | spedophiles somehow always involved,

01:13:08.680 | I'm not understanding any of that.

01:13:11.800 | Legitimately, I say this, both humorously and seriously,

01:13:15.160 | I need to look into it.

01:13:16.920 | And I guess the bigger question I'm asking,

01:13:19.480 | how does a serious human being,

01:13:21.920 | somebody with a position at a respectable university,

01:13:25.600 | like look at a conspiracy theory and look into it?

01:13:28.160 | When I look at somebody like Jeffrey Epstein,

01:13:30.600 | who had a role at MIT, and I think,

01:13:35.600 | I'm not happy, personally,

01:13:38.940 | I wasn't there when Jeffrey Epstein was there,

01:13:42.760 | I'm not happy with the behavior of people now

01:13:45.880 | about Jeffrey Epstein, about the bureaucracy

01:13:49.360 | and everybody's trying to keep quiet, hoping it blows over,

01:13:53.120 | without really looking into any,

01:13:55.160 | like looking in a deep philosophical way of like,

01:14:00.160 | how do we let this human being be among us?

01:14:03.760 | - Can I give you a better example?

01:14:04.920 | - Sure.

01:14:05.760 | - That is kind of conspiratorial.

01:14:07.960 | The Speaker of the House,

01:14:08.960 | the longest serving Republican Speaker of the House,

01:14:10.920 | Dennis Hastert, was a pedophile.

01:14:12.920 | He went to jail.

01:14:14.460 | The Democrats don't throw this

01:14:16.000 | in the Republicans' faces every five minutes,

01:14:18.280 | not even Democratic activists.

01:14:19.600 | I find that very, very odd and not what I would predict.

01:14:23.560 | Now, I'm not saying there's some kind of conspiracy,

01:14:26.160 | but when it comes to things like sexual predation,

01:14:28.940 | which is something that I'm very, very concerned about.

01:14:31.640 | I have an uncle now,

01:14:32.480 | my sister just had her second kid recently, he's adorable.

01:14:35.240 | It's something that I don't understand.

01:14:40.420 | It feels as if there's a lot of people

01:14:44.080 | who want this to all go away.

01:14:45.740 | Now, I think it's also because we don't have

01:14:47.760 | the vocabulary and framework to discuss it.

01:14:50.160 | Because when you start talking about things like children

01:14:52.200 | and these kinds of issues,

01:14:53.480 | we want to believe it's all crap.

01:14:55.560 | Because it's for those of us

01:14:56.840 | who aren't in this kind of mindset,

01:14:58.400 | the idea that this happens to kids and happens frequently

01:15:01.120 | is something so horrible that we,

01:15:03.160 | it's just like, I don't even want to hear it.

01:15:04.800 | And that does these children and adult survivors

01:15:07.320 | an enormous disservice.

01:15:08.720 | So I don't know that I have any particular insight on this.

01:15:11.340 | But see, how do you, the Catholic Church,

01:15:14.780 | again, there's all these topics that--

01:15:17.100 | - Public school teachers are far more proportionately

01:15:19.980 | predators of children than the Catholic Church.

01:15:21.940 | - I mean, I don't know what, you're right, you're right.

01:15:24.620 | Perhaps I've been reading a lot about Stalin and Hitler.

01:15:29.620 | Somehow it's more comforting to be able to--

01:15:32.780 | - Yeah, 'cause it's there, and then.

01:15:34.300 | - And then, and then the atrocities that are happening now,

01:15:38.500 | it's a little bit more difficult because--

01:15:39.860 | - There was a New York Times article,

01:15:41.020 | sorry to interrupt you, where they had people

01:15:43.380 | tracking down child pornography.

01:15:45.300 | And I think the article said they didn't have enough people

01:15:47.560 | just to cover the videotapes of infants being raped.

01:15:51.400 | And we can even wrap our heads around reading Lolita,

01:15:54.520 | like, okay, she's 14, 12, okay, it's still a female.

01:15:57.460 | An infant, it's something that,

01:15:59.820 | again, like with the Stalin example,

01:16:01.520 | we sat down here for 100 years,

01:16:02.780 | we would never think of something like this,

01:16:03.860 | think of it in a sexual context, it makes no sense.

01:16:06.660 | So, and the fact that this is international,

01:16:08.860 | okay, we eliminated completely in America.

01:16:11.300 | Well, then they're gonna go find,

01:16:13.180 | there's infants all over the world,

01:16:14.260 | there's video cameras all over the world.

01:16:15.860 | So, then it has to become a conspiracy

01:16:18.460 | because someone has to film it, I'm filming it,

01:16:20.820 | you're buying it, your kid.

01:16:23.140 | It is literally a conspiratorial,

01:16:25.580 | not in the sense of like a mafia conspiracy

01:16:27.420 | or some government Illuminati,

01:16:29.380 | but there is our networks designed to produce this product.

01:16:34.020 | - See, but like what I'm trying to do now,

01:16:38.500 | I mean, one of the nice things with like a podcast

01:16:41.420 | and other things I'm involved with

01:16:43.020 | is removing myself from having any kind of boss

01:16:46.740 | so I can do whatever that helps.

01:16:48.220 | - Oh, it's so wonderful, that just happened to me.

01:16:50.300 | It's the most wonderful thing ever.

01:16:52.500 | - So, I can actually, in moderation,

01:16:55.540 | consider like look into stuff.

01:16:57.780 | - Careful though, I was gonna write a book about this

01:16:59.900 | and people pointed out, you sure wanna do this research?

01:17:02.980 | 'Cause if you start Googling around for this kind of stuff,

01:17:04.780 | it's on your computer.

01:17:06.660 | - Oh, in that sense. - Yeah.

01:17:08.300 | - I'm more concerned about, you know,

01:17:10.060 | it's the Nietzsche thing, looking into the abyss.

01:17:12.180 | Like you wanna be very,

01:17:13.700 | I believe I can do this kind of thing in moderation

01:17:16.660 | without slipping into the depths.

01:17:19.300 | I think that's intelligence, that's like,

01:17:23.500 | I recently quote unquote looked into like the UFO community,

01:17:28.260 | the extraterrestrial, whatever community.

01:17:32.060 | I think it always frustrated me

01:17:34.580 | that the scientific community like rolled their eyes

01:17:37.220 | at all the UFO sightings, all that kind of stuff.

01:17:40.020 | Even though there could be fascinating,

01:17:41.980 | beautiful, physical, like, first of all,

01:17:44.700 | there could legit-- - Like ball lightning.

01:17:46.300 | - Like ball lightning, right?

01:17:47.580 | That's at the very basic level is a fascinating thing.

01:17:51.860 | And also, it could be something like,

01:17:56.860 | I mean, I don't know,

01:17:57.900 | but it could be something interesting,

01:17:59.500 | like worth looking into.

01:18:02.100 | - My grandfather was an air traffic controller

01:18:04.260 | back in the Soviet Union.

01:18:05.820 | And he said, we saw this stuff all the time.

01:18:08.300 | These are planes that were not moving

01:18:09.780 | or whatever things that were not moving

01:18:11.420 | according to anything we knew about.

01:18:13.420 | So it's absolutely real.

01:18:14.660 | He's not some jerk with an iPhone in his backyard.

01:18:18.060 | This is a military professional who understood technology,

01:18:22.660 | who knew where the secret bases were.

01:18:24.140 | So if he's telling me, it's some,

01:18:26.260 | doesn't mean it's Martians,

01:18:27.700 | but he's telling me there's something there.

01:18:29.180 | And there are many examples of these like military people.

01:18:31.580 | These aren't some layman who sees a story.

01:18:33.420 | - These are legit people.

01:18:34.260 | And so you can dismiss,

01:18:37.580 | when you're talking about professionals

01:18:38.700 | who are around aircraft all the time,

01:18:40.260 | who are familiar with aircraft at the highest levels,

01:18:42.460 | and they're seeing things that they can't explain,

01:18:45.020 | they're clearly not stupid

01:18:46.260 | and they're clearly not underformed.

01:18:47.380 | - So there's different ways to dismiss it.

01:18:49.820 | For example, you were saying that trolling

01:18:53.860 | is a good mechanism.

01:18:55.500 | I'm against that,

01:18:56.740 | but I'm not dismissing it by like rolling my eyes.

01:19:00.460 | I'm considering legitimately

01:19:02.500 | that you're way smarter than me

01:19:04.220 | and you understand the world better than me.

01:19:05.780 | Like I'm allowing myself to consider that possibility

01:19:08.180 | and thinking about it.

01:19:09.020 | Like maybe that's true,

01:19:10.980 | like seriously considering it.

01:19:13.060 | I feel the way people should approach intelligent people,

01:19:18.060 | serious quote unquote people,

01:19:20.020 | scientists should approach conspiracy theories.

01:19:22.380 | Like look at it carefully.

01:19:26.660 | First of all, is it possible that the earth is flat?

01:19:29.380 | - It's not trivial to show that the earth is not flat.

01:19:32.580 | It's a very good exercise.

01:19:33.740 | You should go through it.

01:19:35.020 | But once you go through it,

01:19:36.420 | you realize that based on a lot of data

01:19:41.100 | and a lot of evidence,

01:19:42.340 | and there's a lot of different experiments

01:19:43.700 | you can do yourself actually

01:19:45.620 | to show that the earth is not flat.

01:19:47.220 | Okay, the same kind of process can be taken

01:19:50.860 | for a lot of different conspiracy theories,

01:19:52.940 | and it's helpful.

01:19:54.140 | And without slipping into the depths

01:19:56.300 | of lizard people running everything.

01:20:00.540 | That's where I've now listened to two episodes

01:20:04.140 | of Alex Jones's show,

01:20:08.620 | because he goes crazy deep

01:20:12.140 | into different kind of worldviews

01:20:16.900 | that I was not familiar with.

01:20:19.100 | And I don't know what to make of it.

01:20:20.580 | I mean, the reason I've been listening to it

01:20:22.020 | is because there's been a lot of discussions

01:20:25.500 | about platforming of different people.

01:20:27.820 | And I've been thinking about what does censorship mean.

01:20:30.580 | I've been thinking about whether,

01:20:34.300 | because Joe Rogan said he's gonna have Alex on again.

01:20:39.300 | And then I enjoyed it as a fan,

01:20:43.620 | just the entertainment of it.

01:20:45.260 | But then I actually listened to Alex,

01:20:47.580 | and I was thinking,

01:20:49.700 | is this human being dangerous for the world?

01:20:53.100 | Like is the ideas he's saying dangerous for the world?

01:20:55.500 | - I'm more concerned with the Russian conspiracy

01:20:57.420 | that we had for three years.

01:20:58.900 | And the claim that our election was not legitimate,

01:21:01.540 | and that everyone in the Trump White House

01:21:02.900 | is a stooge of Putin.

01:21:04.300 | And the people who said this had no consequences for this.

01:21:07.180 | Alex Jones doesn't have the respect that they do.

01:21:10.060 | These are both areas of concern for me.

01:21:12.060 | - But he might if he's given more platforms.

01:21:15.380 | So like the people who've,

01:21:18.260 | and I'd be curious,

01:21:19.780 | I'm also a little bit,

01:21:22.300 | I don't know what to think about the idea

01:21:24.100 | that Russians hacked the election.

01:21:26.660 | It seems too easily accepted in the mainstream media.

01:21:30.460 | - Hillary Clinton said that how they did it

01:21:33.980 | was they had ads on the dark web.

01:21:37.660 | Now you and I both know what the dark web is.

01:21:40.400 | So the possibility of ads on the dark web

01:21:43.060 | having an influence,

01:21:44.420 | a proportional influence on the election is literally zero.

01:21:48.420 | - Perhaps I should look into it more carefully,

01:21:50.100 | but I've found very little good data

01:21:53.900 | on exactly what did the Russians do to hack elections.

01:21:58.900 | Technically speaking, what are we talking about here?

01:22:01.980 | As opposed to these kind of weird,

01:22:03.820 | like the best thing is a couple of books

01:22:05.660 | and reporting on farms.

01:22:09.380 | - Patrol farms, yeah.

01:22:10.220 | - Patrol farms.

01:22:11.260 | But let's see the data.

01:22:14.740 | Like how many exactly?

01:22:16.780 | What are we talking about?

01:22:17.900 | What were they doing?

01:22:19.940 | Not just like some anecdotal discussions,

01:22:22.980 | but like relative to the bigger, the size of Facebook.

01:22:27.980 | Like if there's a few people, several hundred say,

01:22:32.780 | that are posting different political things on Facebook,

01:22:36.660 | relative to the full size of Facebook,

01:22:39.700 | let's look at the full size.

01:22:41.660 | - Right, you're thinking like a scientist.

01:22:42.820 | - The actual impact.

01:22:43.740 | Like 'cause it's fascinating the social dynamics

01:22:47.500 | of viral information of videos.

01:22:50.420 | When Donald Trump retweets something,

01:22:53.780 | I think that's understudied the effect of that.

01:22:56.520 | Like he retweeted a clip with Joe Rogan

01:23:01.860 | and Mike Tyson, where Mike Tyson says

01:23:05.460 | that he finds fighting orgasmic.

01:23:08.000 | I don't understand that,

01:23:09.860 | but it'd be fascinating to think like,

01:23:11.340 | what is the ripple effect on the social dynamic

01:23:15.500 | of our society from retweeting a clip about Mike Tyson?

01:23:19.620 | - What's your favorite Trump tweet?

01:23:22.300 | - I tuned him out a long time ago, unfortunately.

01:23:26.840 | You and I have a different relationship with Donald Trump.

01:23:35.340 | You appreciate the art form of trolling.

01:23:37.460 | - Non-sexual.

01:23:38.300 | - Non-sexual, yeah.

01:23:39.500 | So I tend to prefer Bill Clinton.

01:23:44.300 | He's more my type.

01:23:45.140 | I'm just kidding.

01:23:45.980 | I don't know.

01:23:47.260 | - You don't like that consent stuff.

01:23:48.780 | - No, the consent, no.

01:23:50.060 | No, you appreciate the art form of trolling

01:23:53.500 | and Donald Trump is a master.

01:23:57.100 | He's the Da Vinci of trolling.

01:24:00.180 | So I tend to think that trolling

01:24:03.620 | is ultimately destructive for society.

01:24:05.900 | And then Donald Trump takes nothing seriously.

01:24:07.980 | He's playing a game.

01:24:09.140 | He's making a game out of everything.

01:24:10.580 | - He takes a lot of things seriously.

01:24:11.460 | I think he's very committed to international peace.

01:24:14.620 | - I'm sorry, I shouldn't speak so strong.

01:24:16.820 | I think he takes, actually, yes, a lot of things seriously.

01:24:20.540 | I meant on Twitter and the game of politics.

01:24:25.340 | - Yeah.

01:24:26.180 | - He is, he only takes--

01:24:29.540 | - Irreverently.

01:24:30.500 | - Yeah.

01:24:31.340 | - Yeah.

01:24:32.180 | - And I appreciate it.

01:24:35.140 | I just would like to focus on like genuine,

01:24:40.180 | real expressions of humanity, especially positive.

01:24:44.700 | - Well, this is my favorite tweet.

01:24:46.620 | My fans got it laser etched

01:24:48.820 | and put it in a block of loose light for me.

01:24:50.940 | And he said, "Every time I speak of the losers and haters,

01:24:54.940 | I do so with great affection.

01:24:56.780 | They cannot help the fact that they were born fucked up."

01:24:59.500 | That's an actual Trump tweet.

01:25:00.780 | It's my favorite one.

01:25:01.860 | - And that's kind of nice.

01:25:04.460 | - And that's love.

01:25:05.380 | - That's love.

01:25:06.220 | That's kind of nice.

01:25:07.060 | - Great affection.

01:25:08.540 | - That, I mean, exclamation point.

01:25:12.420 | Even.

01:25:14.420 | I broke Lex.

01:25:19.220 | What is love?

01:25:20.300 | - Yeah, the sparks are flying.

01:25:22.900 | But I have to kind of analyze that

01:25:25.860 | from like a literary perspective,

01:25:27.500 | but it seems like there's love in there,

01:25:29.860 | like a little bit.

01:25:30.700 | It's a little bit lighthearted.

01:25:32.940 | - 'Cause he's saying, "Even when I'm going after them,

01:25:34.900 | don't take it so seriously."

01:25:36.260 | - Yeah.

01:25:37.100 | - That's nice.

01:25:37.940 | - It is nice.

01:25:38.780 | - That's acknowledging the game of it.

01:25:40.060 | - Yes.

01:25:40.900 | - That's nice.

01:25:42.020 | He's not always nice.

01:25:43.620 | - Sometimes he's very, very vicious.

01:25:45.060 | - Yeah.

01:25:45.900 | - Very vicious.

01:25:46.740 | He's done things that I can tell you about

01:25:48.580 | that I'm like, "This is a bad person."

01:25:51.220 | - What do you think about one of the...

01:25:53.140 | Okay, listen, I'm not...

01:25:55.380 | For people listening,

01:25:56.460 | I do not have Trump derangement syndrome.

01:25:59.380 | I try to look for the good and the bad in everybody.

01:26:05.620 | One thing, perhaps it's irrational,

01:26:07.940 | but perhaps because I've been reading history,

01:26:10.400 | the one triggering thing for me is the delaying of elections.

01:26:16.540 | I believe in elections,

01:26:20.100 | and this is the part that you probably disagree with.

01:26:24.820 | But I believe in the value of people voting,

01:26:29.420 | and I just see too many dictators,

01:26:32.340 | the place where they finally, the big switch happens.

01:26:36.300 | When you question the legitimacy of elections.

01:26:39.740 | - Who's been questioning the legitimacy of elections

01:26:41.500 | for the last three years?

01:26:43.060 | - I've only heard Donald Trump do it last year,

01:26:45.620 | but the last three years you're saying somebody else?

01:26:48.500 | - You don't think, "Not my president, illegitimate.

01:26:51.220 | "We're not gonna normalize him as president.

01:26:52.860 | "Russia hacked this election.

01:26:54.940 | "Impeached, you're not a real president."

01:26:56.340 | You don't think that's questioning legitimacy of 2016?

01:26:59.100 | - No, it's a good...

01:27:00.260 | I haven't been paying attention enough,

01:27:02.060 | but I would imagine that argument has been that...

01:27:06.980 | I haven't actually heard too many people,

01:27:08.860 | but I imagine that's been a popular thing to say.

01:27:10.380 | - Oh, very much so, yeah.

01:27:12.300 | - Okay.

01:27:13.140 | But nevertheless, that's a part that didn't...

01:27:18.300 | That's not a statement that gained power enough to say

01:27:21.540 | that Barack Obama will keep being president,

01:27:27.060 | or Hillary Clinton should be president.

01:27:30.340 | - Newsweek had that article,

01:27:31.300 | how Hillary Clinton could still be president, Newsweek.

01:27:34.060 | - No, but she's not.

01:27:35.740 | That's what I'm saying.

01:27:36.580 | My worry isn't saying that the election was illegitimate,

01:27:41.580 | and people whining at mass scale,

01:27:45.620 | and then Fox News or CNN reporting for years,

01:27:49.340 | or books being written for years.

01:27:51.060 | My worry is legitimately martial law,

01:27:54.900 | a person stays president.

01:27:57.860 | - So here's the issue.

01:27:59.140 | Like there's a phase shift that happens in a dictatorship.

01:28:02.500 | - I did a book on North Korea.

01:28:04.260 | I'm not someone who thinks

01:28:05.660 | dictatorship should be taken lightly.

01:28:07.700 | I'm not someone who thinks it can't happen here.

01:28:09.900 | I think a lot of times people are desperate for dictatorship.

01:28:13.060 | So I am with you.

01:28:14.100 | And I think this is something,

01:28:15.440 | if you're gonna hand wave it away,

01:28:16.980 | everyone else hand waved it away.

01:28:18.340 | Hitler's never gonna be chancellor.

01:28:19.460 | He's a lunatic.

01:28:20.300 | - He's a joke. - He's a joke.

01:28:22.060 | They couldn't find a publisher for Mein Kampf in English,

01:28:24.860 | because this is a guy from some random minor party

01:28:28.100 | in Germany spouting nonsense,

01:28:29.460 | who's gonna read this crap?

01:28:31.180 | So I completely agree with you in that regard.

01:28:33.300 | - You don't think we're there.

01:28:34.300 | - My point is Donald Trump this year

01:28:37.860 | had every pathway open to him to declare martial law.

01:28:42.580 | The cities are being burnt down.

01:28:44.460 | He could have very easily sent in the tanks,

01:28:47.260 | and people would have been applauding him from his side.

01:28:49.500 | - You're making me feel so good right now.

01:28:50.540 | - But am I wrong though?

01:28:51.620 | - No, I--

01:28:52.460 | - What he did, he tweeted out to Mayor Wheeler of Portland.

01:28:56.020 | He said, "Call me.

01:28:58.380 | "We will solve this in minutes, but you have to call."

01:29:03.220 | And he sat on his hands, and they said,

01:29:05.180 | "Oh, it's his fault.

01:29:06.440 | "The city's burning down.

01:29:07.420 | "He's not doing anything."

01:29:08.380 | And he goes, "I'm not doing anything

01:29:10.040 | "until you ask me to do it."

01:29:12.260 | So I think that is,

01:29:14.020 | even if you think he's an aspiring dictator,

01:29:16.940 | that is at least a sign that there is some restraint

01:29:20.740 | on his aspirations.

01:29:23.420 | - Can I just take that in as a beautiful moment of hope?

01:29:28.420 | So I'm gonna remember this moment--

01:29:30.260 | - As beautiful as Ted Cruz.

01:29:31.820 | Beautiful Ted.

01:29:33.380 | - I'm gonna remember that.

01:29:34.420 | I mean, I should say that perhaps I'm irrationally,

01:29:39.420 | this is the one moment where I feel myself

01:29:41.620 | being a little unhealthy.

01:29:43.020 | - I don't think you're being irrational.

01:29:44.180 | I think there's an asymmetry,

01:29:46.360 | because it's kind of like, okay,

01:29:48.580 | either if I leave the house, it's like Russian roulette.

01:29:51.180 | Yeah, maybe it's like a one in six shot,

01:29:52.760 | I'm pulling the trigger, I'm killing myself,

01:29:54.420 | but that's one in six.

01:29:56.220 | That's not, and the consequences are so dire

01:29:59.400 | that a little paranoia would go a long way.

01:30:01.700 | - There's something that--

01:30:02.540 | - 'Cause you can't go back.

01:30:04.180 | - Yeah, you can't.

01:30:05.340 | - It's an asymmetry, yeah.

01:30:06.660 | - The thing is, the thing that makes Donald Trump new to me,

01:30:11.660 | and again, I'm a little naive in these things,

01:30:14.700 | but he surprised me in how many ways

01:30:21.460 | he just didn't play by the rules.

01:30:24.060 | And he's made me, a little ant in this ant colony,

01:30:30.240 | think like, well, do you have to play by the rules at all?

01:30:34.440 | Why are we having elections?

01:30:38.180 | Why did you say, it's coronavirus time,

01:30:41.720 | it's not healthy to have elections,

01:30:44.880 | we shouldn't be, I could, if I put my dictator hat on--

01:30:48.760 | - Nancy Pelosi said that Joe Biden shouldn't debate.

01:30:52.200 | - Yeah, did she?

01:30:53.980 | - Yes, she says she shouldn't dignify Trump with a debate.

01:30:57.000 | He's the president, he could be the worst president on Earth,

01:30:59.200 | evil, despicable monster, I'll take that as an argument.

01:31:02.120 | - So she's playing politics, but she's--

01:31:03.680 | - I don't think that's playing politics.

01:31:04.800 | I think when, there's a certain point when things get,

01:31:08.120 | when you start attacking institutions

01:31:10.240 | for the emergencies of the moment,

01:31:12.720 | and acting arbitrarily,

01:31:14.040 | that is when things are the slippery slope.

01:31:15.960 | - Yeah, so you're saying debates

01:31:17.900 | is one of the institutions,

01:31:18.920 | like that's one of the traditions to have the debates.

01:31:21.080 | - I think the debates are extremely important.

01:31:23.640 | Now, I don't think that someone's a good debater

01:31:25.440 | is gonna make a good president.

01:31:26.520 | I mean, that's a big problem.

01:31:27.800 | - But you're just saying this is attacking

01:31:29.120 | just yet another tradition, yet another--

01:31:32.320 | - You know like how if you're dating,

01:31:33.320 | if you're married to someone,

01:31:34.240 | and someone throws out the word divorce,

01:31:35.680 | you can't unring that bell, you threw it out there?

01:31:38.040 | I'm saying you don't throw things out like that

01:31:40.240 | unless you really are ready to go down this road.

01:31:43.640 | And I think that is,

01:31:44.640 | there's nothing in the Constitution about debates,

01:31:46.560 | we've only had them since 1980,

01:31:48.240 | but still, I think they are extremely important.

01:31:51.060 | It's also a great chance for Joe Biden

01:31:52.760 | to tell him to his face, you're full of crap,

01:31:55.160 | here's what you did, here's what you did,

01:31:56.240 | here's what you did.

01:31:57.080 | - So fascinating that you're both,

01:31:58.680 | you acknowledge that,

01:32:01.300 | and yet you also see the value

01:32:03.820 | of tearing down the entire thing.

01:32:06.280 | So you're both worried about no debates,

01:32:09.500 | or at least in your voice, in your tone.

01:32:11.260 | - There's a great quote by Chesterton.

01:32:13.900 | I'm not a fan of his at all,

01:32:15.520 | but he says, "Before you tear down a fence,

01:32:17.120 | "make sure you know why they put it up first."

01:32:19.280 | So I am for tearing it all down,

01:32:22.580 | but there's something called a controlled demolition,

01:32:24.280 | like Building 7, or there's--

01:32:26.440 | - Allegedly.

01:32:27.280 | (both laughing)

01:32:29.480 | - We knew we were in Tel Aviv.

01:32:30.980 | And--

01:32:32.760 | - Hashtag Building 7.

01:32:33.600 | (Lex laughing)

01:32:34.440 | We knew we were in Tel Aviv.

01:32:36.080 | Wow, you're faster than me.

01:32:37.440 | You're operating in a different level.

01:32:40.560 | I need to upgrade my operating system.

01:32:42.360 | (Lex laughing)

01:32:43.200 | - I'm in primary. - I told you Windows 95.

01:32:45.280 | (Lex laughing)

01:32:46.120 | - You're trying, yeah.

01:32:46.960 | Building 7.

01:32:49.680 | - If you're gonna, it's like Indiana Jones, right?

01:32:52.320 | If you're gonna pull something away,

01:32:54.240 | make sure you have something in place first,

01:32:55.840 | as opposed to just breaking it,

01:32:57.000 | and then just, especially in politics,

01:32:59.560 | 'cause it escalates, and when things escalate

01:33:02.060 | without any kind of response, it can go in a very bad,

01:33:05.640 | that's when Napoleon comes in.

01:33:07.060 | - So what's your prediction about the Biden-Trump debates?

01:33:14.320 | - Again, I just have this weird,

01:33:16.720 | maybe we'll return to it, maybe not,

01:33:18.960 | in this, how do we put more love into the world?

01:33:22.380 | And one of the things that worries me about the debates

01:33:25.440 | is it'll be the world's greatest troll

01:33:31.520 | against the grandpa on the porch.

01:33:36.480 | - Who crapped his pants.

01:33:37.520 | - Yeah. - Yeah.

01:33:38.640 | - And it'll not put more love into the world.

01:33:42.360 | It will create more mockery.

01:33:45.420 | - Joe Biden did a great job against Paul Ryan in 2012.

01:33:50.680 | Paul Ryan was no lightweight,

01:33:51.840 | no one thought he was a lightweight.

01:33:53.200 | Joe Biden handed Sarah Palin her ass in 2008,

01:33:56.720 | which isn't as easy to do as you think,

01:33:58.120 | 'cause she's a female, so you're gonna come off as bullying,

01:34:00.360 | that's something you have to worry about.

01:34:01.740 | So the guy isn't, I think he is in the stages

01:34:06.640 | of cognitive decline, so I think it's going to be interesting.

01:34:12.000 | I want it to be like Mike Tyson beating up a child,

01:34:17.000 | 'cause it'll be a source of amusement to me,

01:34:20.920 | but I don't know how it's gonna go.

01:34:22.280 | - Is it possible that Joe Biden

01:34:23.680 | will be the Mike Tyson in this?

01:34:24.840 | - Yes, because in his last debate with Bernie,

01:34:27.080 | he was perfectly fine.

01:34:28.540 | And again, the guy was a senator for decades,

01:34:30.400 | and I don't think anyone, if you looked at Joe Biden in 2010

01:34:35.080 | would have thought this guy is gonna be,

01:34:36.640 | have his ass handed him a debate,

01:34:38.000 | you wouldn't think that at all.

01:34:39.280 | So I don't know who we're going to see.

01:34:41.500 | Plus he's got a lot of room to attack Trump.

01:34:45.140 | So I'm sure he's gonna come strapped and ready,

01:34:47.540 | and he's gonna have his talking points,

01:34:49.500 | and watch Trump dance, try to tap dance around him.

01:34:52.000 | And if he's in a position,

01:34:52.880 | I know what the rules of the debate are,

01:34:54.280 | to actually nail him to the wall,

01:34:56.840 | it might actually, I'm sure he's gonna have

01:34:58.160 | a lot of lines too.

01:34:59.440 | The problem is Trump is the master counter puncher.

01:35:01.880 | So like when Hillary's had her line,

01:35:04.200 | she's like, "Well, it's a good thing that Donald Trump

01:35:06.800 | "isn't in charge of our legal system."

01:35:08.480 | And he's like, "Yeah, you'd be in jail."

01:35:10.320 | It's like, "Oh, lady, you set him up."

01:35:13.980 | - That's painful to watch those debates.

01:35:16.720 | I mean, there's something,

01:35:18.280 | I think it's actually analogous,

01:35:20.520 | I've come to think of it,

01:35:22.040 | your conversation with me right now.

01:35:24.640 | It's sleepy Joe, I'm playing the role of sleepy Joe.

01:35:28.920 | I actually connect to Joe because--

01:35:32.840 | - I'm also incontinent.

01:35:34.120 | (laughing)

01:35:35.200 | - There's like these weird pauses that he does.

01:35:37.560 | - Yes, he does.

01:35:38.720 | - I do the same thing and it annoys the shit out of me

01:35:42.280 | that like in mid sentence,

01:35:44.880 | I'll start saying a different thing and take a tangent.

01:35:49.320 | I'm not as slow and drunk as I sound always.

01:35:54.320 | I swear I'm more intelligent underneath it.

01:35:56.400 | - I'm slower but less drunk.

01:35:57.800 | (laughing)

01:35:59.320 | - Exactly, but the result, one of those is true,

01:36:02.280 | but not both, yeah.

01:36:06.480 | And Trump, just like you are a master counterpuncher,

01:36:09.160 | so it's getting me messy.

01:36:11.920 | - Here's the other thing in all seriousness,

01:36:13.440 | Chris Wallace is the moderator.

01:36:15.440 | Chris Wallace has interviewed Trump several times

01:36:17.340 | and he was a tough, tough questioner.

01:36:21.400 | So I don't think he's gonna come in there

01:36:23.740 | with softball questions.

01:36:25.200 | I think he's really going to try to nail Trump down,

01:36:28.280 | which is tough to do.

01:36:29.680 | - I like him a lot.

01:36:30.680 | - Yeah, and he's like, "Mr. President, sir,

01:36:32.920 | that's not accurate, blah, blah, blah."

01:36:33.960 | He's done it and Trump gets very frustrated

01:36:36.400 | 'cause he doesn't just let him say whatever he wants

01:36:38.120 | and he hits him with the follow-up.

01:36:40.200 | - I guess he's on Fox News

01:36:43.720 | and I listen to his Sunday program every once in a while.

01:36:47.520 | I don't know, he gives me hope that,

01:36:50.960 | I don't know, there's something in the voice

01:36:52.440 | like that he's not bought.

01:36:54.220 | - There's no question he's gonna take this seriously,

01:36:57.280 | which I think is the best you could hope for in a moderator.

01:37:00.800 | - It feels like there's people

01:37:02.000 | that might actually take the mainstream media

01:37:04.520 | into a place that's going to be better in the future.

01:37:08.280 | And we need people like him.

01:37:09.760 | - You mean like Robespierre?

01:37:11.200 | - What do you mean?

01:37:12.040 | - Like taking the mainstream media to a better future,

01:37:14.360 | like bring out the guillotines.

01:37:15.920 | - Okay, see, you put your anarchist hat back on.

01:37:21.080 | - I don't think Robespierre's much of an anarchist,

01:37:22.560 | but yeah, I get what you're saying.

01:37:24.240 | - You don't think there should be

01:37:25.120 | a centralized place for news?

01:37:27.000 | - There isn't now.

01:37:29.440 | - Well, that's what mainstream media

01:37:31.760 | is supposed to represent.

01:37:32.600 | - It's not central. - And it's broken.

01:37:33.480 | Well, it's not whatever, what do you call that?

01:37:36.880 | A place where people traditionally said

01:37:39.720 | was the legitimate source of truth.

01:37:44.360 | - No. - That's what the media

01:37:45.240 | was supposed to represent, no?

01:37:46.600 | - So that's their big branding accomplishment.

01:37:50.280 | It's a completely-- - That was never true?

01:37:51.880 | - Yeah, because here's what happens.

01:37:53.560 | We remember the Spanish-American War, remember the main,

01:37:56.640 | we have to take Cuba, yellow journalism,

01:37:59.280 | Wally Randolph Hearst, right?

01:38:00.880 | Then record scratch, and then we're all objective.

01:38:04.240 | Like when did this transition happen, according to people?

01:38:06.520 | When you were saying that the Kaiser

01:38:08.200 | is the worst human being on earth?

01:38:10.320 | When you were downplaying Stalin

01:38:12.320 | and downplaying Hitler's atrocities?

01:38:13.960 | When you were saying we had to be in Vietnam?

01:38:16.320 | At what point, WMDs, when did it change?

01:38:19.120 | It never changed.

01:38:19.960 | You just are better con artists at a certain point,

01:38:22.400 | and now the mask is dropping.

01:38:23.680 | - Yeah, but don't you think there's,

01:38:26.560 | at its best, investigative journalism

01:38:29.960 | can uncover truth in a way that Reddit,

01:38:33.960 | subreddits can't?

01:38:39.120 | - You know, Reddit, sure, I agree.

01:38:41.600 | At its best, absolutely.

01:38:42.520 | That's not even a dispute.

01:38:43.880 | - But don't you think fake it until you make it

01:38:48.760 | is the right way to do it?

01:38:49.920 | Meaning like-- - Fake the news?

01:38:52.360 | - No, no, no.

01:38:53.440 | I meant the news saying like,

01:38:55.760 | we dream of doing, of arriving at the truth

01:38:59.960 | and reporting the truth.

01:39:01.240 | - They don't say that.

01:39:02.080 | CNN had an advertisement that said,

01:39:03.760 | "This is an apple.

01:39:04.600 | "We only report facts.

01:39:05.960 | "That's a lie."

01:39:07.120 | - No, that's now.

01:39:08.400 | And now it's clear things have changed.

01:39:10.920 | - They haven't changed.

01:39:11.800 | You're just more, you're more aware of it.

01:39:13.840 | - Aware of it. - Chicanery.

01:39:15.960 | - But, okay, so the--

01:39:17.840 | - How many people died in Iraq?

01:39:19.320 | 'Cause Saddam Hussein was about to launch WMDs.

01:39:22.800 | Who had consequences for this?

01:39:24.040 | No one.

01:39:25.440 | This isn't a minor thing.

01:39:26.520 | This is lots of dead people.

01:39:28.800 | - Yeah.

01:39:30.080 | And also, I mean, dead people,

01:39:32.800 | it's horrible, but also the money,

01:39:35.280 | which has, like we said, economic effects.

01:39:37.720 | - Marianne Williamson, I think it was,

01:39:39.280 | had the, or Trump, both of them,

01:39:40.720 | had the great point that goes,

01:39:41.800 | "That's like a trillion dollars.

01:39:42.640 | "How many schools would that build?

01:39:43.600 | "How many roads would that build?

01:39:45.200 | "Why are we building hospitals in Iraq

01:39:46.840 | "that we destroyed when we could build hospitals here?"

01:39:49.040 | It's horrifying.

01:39:51.760 | - So who's responsible for that?

01:39:53.200 | Like who--

01:39:54.720 | - Alex Jones.

01:39:55.640 | - No, I meant for, well,

01:39:58.360 | so who's responsible for arriving at the truth of that,

01:40:04.360 | of speaking to the money spent on the wars in Iraq?

01:40:09.560 | - This is one of the great things about social media.

01:40:11.800 | - Twitter, you have faith in Twitter.

01:40:13.240 | - Not specifically Twitter,

01:40:14.480 | but yeah, social media is the whole,

01:40:15.440 | what anyone can, here's another great example.

01:40:18.240 | Before, if you were talking about police brutality

01:40:22.160 | or these riots, you would have to perceive it

01:40:24.880 | in the way it was framed and presented to you.

01:40:26.800 | Nicholas Sandman is another example.

01:40:29.120 | Breonna Taylor, all these things.

01:40:30.280 | Well, we don't have footage of her.

01:40:32.160 | You would have to perceive in the way

01:40:33.480 | that it's edited and presented to you by the corporate press.

01:40:35.920 | Now everyone has a video camera,

01:40:38.320 | everyone has their perspective,

01:40:39.920 | and it's very useful when these incidents happen

01:40:42.840 | where you could see the same incident from several angles

01:40:45.360 | and you don't need Don Lemon or Chris Wallace

01:40:47.960 | to tell me what this means.

01:40:49.000 | I can see with my own eyes.

01:40:50.840 | - Yeah, I've been very pleasantly surprised about the power.

01:40:55.520 | See, like people, the mob, again, gets in the way.

01:40:58.240 | They get emotional and they destroy

01:41:01.080 | the ability for people to reason,

01:41:05.000 | but you're right that truth is unobstructed on social media.

01:41:10.000 | If you're careful and patient, you can see the truth.

01:41:14.480 | Like for example, data on COVID,

01:41:16.600 | some of the best sources are doctors.

01:41:19.920 | Like if you wanna know the truth about the coronavirus

01:41:22.480 | and what's happening is there's follow people on Twitter.

01:41:27.400 | There's certain people that are just like

01:41:28.720 | sourcing them for me versus the CDC and the WHO.

01:41:31.680 | That's fast.

01:41:33.680 | I mean, well, it's kind of anarchy, right?

01:41:35.960 | - Yes, it is.

01:41:36.880 | It's not kind of, it is anarchy, yes.

01:41:38.920 | - I mean, well, there's some censorship

01:41:41.720 | and all that kind of stuff.

01:41:42.680 | - You have censorship under anarchy

01:41:43.920 | in the sense that you're talking about.

01:41:45.000 | Like people get kicked off of Twitter.

01:41:47.520 | That's drawing boundaries.

01:41:48.360 | - How do you kick somebody?

01:41:49.200 | Okay, so I mean, it's a--

01:41:50.960 | - Private company.

01:41:52.400 | - Private company.

01:41:53.440 | Most people wouldn't say Twitter is working,

01:41:56.720 | but that's probably because they take for granted

01:41:59.480 | how well it's working and they're just complaining

01:42:01.360 | about the small part of it that's broken.

01:42:03.960 | Yeah.

01:42:04.800 | Okay, another question about--

01:42:09.360 | - You feel better?

01:42:11.360 | - No, by the way, I mean, I had a personal gripe

01:42:15.120 | with the situation about the,

01:42:17.600 | not a personal gripe, but I felt overly emotional

01:42:22.920 | about the possibility that there will be some

01:42:27.400 | of Donald Trump messing with the election process,

01:42:31.820 | but you made me feel better.

01:42:33.040 | - Good.

01:42:33.880 | - Like saying like, if he had a bunch of opportunities

01:42:36.640 | to do what, like to do what I would have done

01:42:41.320 | if I was a dictator, I would,

01:42:43.520 | the first time those riots over George Floyd,

01:42:47.160 | I would instituted martial law.

01:42:49.960 | - Do you know what I remember very vividly?

01:42:52.160 | Is after 9/11 and everyone was waiting for George Bush

01:42:55.240 | to give his speech and he had 98% approved rating.

01:42:58.000 | And I remember very vividly, 'cause if he had said,

01:43:00.680 | we're suspending the constitution,

01:43:03.080 | everyone would have cheered for him.

01:43:04.200 | Like he couldn't get enough support at that time.

01:43:06.480 | And he didn't do it.

01:43:07.840 | And I can't say anything really good about George W. Bush.

01:43:10.760 | I'm not a fan of his to say the least.

01:43:12.480 | So I think you and I, and other people who are familiar

01:43:15.880 | with totalitarian regimes to some extent from our ancestry

01:43:19.520 | or whatever, from research,

01:43:21.320 | should always be the ones freaking out and warning,

01:43:24.680 | but we should also be aware of,

01:43:27.760 | we got a ways to go before it's Hitler.

01:43:30.600 | And thankfully, there are a lot of dominoes

01:43:34.400 | that have to fall into place before Hitler,

01:43:36.360 | it's like the game secret Hitler, it's a board game,

01:43:38.400 | before Hitler becomes Hitler.

01:43:40.120 | Like it's not, especially in America,

01:43:43.080 | there's lots of things that have to happen

01:43:45.600 | before you really get to that point.

01:43:47.600 | I mean, FDR was for all intents and purposes a dictator,

01:43:50.480 | but even then the worst you could say,

01:43:52.400 | and this is not something that you should take lightly,

01:43:54.600 | was internment of Japanese citizens,

01:43:56.560 | but they weren't murdered.

01:43:58.040 | They weren't under lock and key in the sense of like in cells.

01:44:01.800 | So things could have gotten a lot worse for him.

01:44:04.120 | - We have to, I mean, Hitler is such a horrible person

01:44:06.600 | to bring up because-- - He's Mussolini.

01:44:08.480 | - Yeah, Mussolini is better because Hitler

01:44:11.760 | is so closely connected to the atrocities of the Holocaust.

01:44:15.600 | There's all this stuff that led up to the war

01:44:17.400 | and the war itself, say that there was no Holocaust,

01:44:20.760 | Hitler would probably be viewed differently.

01:44:23.440 | - Yes, I should think so.

01:44:24.680 | - Well, I mean, but--

01:44:26.920 | - You think, that's a very controversial stance.

01:44:29.000 | You think Hitler would be viewed differently

01:44:30.200 | if it wasn't for the Holocaust?

01:44:31.600 | - Well, I mean, but it's a funny thing that the,

01:44:36.600 | I would say the death of how many, 40, 50 million,

01:44:43.840 | I mean, I don't know how you calculate it,

01:44:46.880 | is not seen as bad as the 6 million.

01:44:50.920 | - Oh yeah, 'cause of Mao and Stalin.

01:44:52.800 | - Yeah, but it's interesting.

01:44:56.240 | - I'm working on it.

01:44:57.320 | - You're working on it.

01:44:58.160 | - Yeah, the next book I'm talking about.

01:44:59.000 | - Reminding, well, it's good.

01:45:01.040 | I'm glad a good writer is,

01:45:02.440 | 'cause the world's not reminded.

01:45:03.760 | - My last book, "The New Right,"

01:45:05.080 | I had to deal with some of the Nazis.

01:45:06.400 | And one of the points they make is,

01:45:07.560 | how come everyone knows about the Holocaust,

01:45:09.000 | but no one knows about the Holodomor?

01:45:10.640 | And they're right, we should know about this,

01:45:12.680 | because it is a great example of both

01:45:14.640 | how the Western media were depraved,

01:45:17.360 | but also what human beings are capable of.

01:45:19.680 | And those scars are still,

01:45:22.320 | many Americans think Russia and Ukraine are the same thing.

01:45:25.560 | Oh, Trump's in bed with the Ukrainians,

01:45:27.120 | Trump's about the Russians, they think it's the same thing.

01:45:29.440 | For us, it's complete lunacy.

01:45:31.720 | But this is the kind of thing where Pol Pot

01:45:33.760 | is another example, where people have no clue

01:45:37.320 | of what has been done to their fellow man

01:45:39.160 | on the face of this earth, and they should know.

01:45:41.440 | - How much of that do you lay at the hands of communism?

01:45:43.920 | How much are you with like a Jordan Pearson,

01:45:46.480 | who is intricately connecting the atrocities,

01:45:51.480 | like you're saying, 1930s Ukraine, where people were starved?

01:45:55.200 | I recently, my grandmother recently passed away,

01:45:58.400 | and she survived that as a kid, which is,

01:46:02.760 | those people, I mean, just, they're tough.

01:46:08.080 | They're tough, like that whole region is tough,

01:46:12.000 | 'cause they survived that, and then right after,

01:46:15.120 | occupation of Nazis, of Germans.

01:46:18.720 | How much do you lay that at communism as an ideology

01:46:24.480 | versus Stalin in demand?

01:46:27.960 | - I think, Lenin was building concentration camps

01:46:31.080 | while he was around, and slave labor.

01:46:33.200 | I don't, I think it's clearly both.

01:46:36.840 | There are certain variants of communism

01:46:38.600 | that were far, like Khrushchev and Gorbachev.

01:46:41.760 | The reason the Soviet Union fell apart,

01:46:44.640 | and this is kind of, I'm gonna spoil the end of the book.

01:46:47.000 | There's an amazing book called "Revolution 1989."

01:46:48.920 | It's like most people who book have ever read,

01:46:50.640 | by Viktor Sebastian, he's a Hungarian author.

01:46:53.320 | And basically what happens in 1989,

01:46:55.360 | Poland has their elections, and then in 1990,

01:46:57.800 | they kind of let in the labor people into the government.

01:47:00.360 | And people start crossing borders in the Eastern Bloc.

01:47:04.480 | And you had Honecker from Eastern Germany

01:47:06.280 | and Ceausescu from Romania calling Gorbachev,

01:47:09.360 | because those are the two toughest ones

01:47:11.240 | by communist standards.

01:47:12.280 | They go, they're just escaping.

01:47:14.520 | We're gonna lose everything.

01:47:16.280 | You gotta send in the tanks like you did in Hungary,

01:47:18.040 | like you did in Czechoslovakia in '68.

01:47:20.560 | And Gorbachev goes, "I'm not sending the tanks."

01:47:22.280 | And they go, "Dude, if you don't send in the tanks,

01:47:24.880 | "it's all done."

01:47:25.760 | And he goes, "Nope, I'm not that kind of guy."

01:47:28.360 | And they were right.

01:47:29.200 | I mean, Ceausescu was personally shot

01:47:31.920 | with his wife up against the wall.

01:47:33.520 | Honecker, I forget what happened to him.

01:47:35.240 | But they all self-liberated.

01:47:37.480 | My friend who was born in Czechoslovakia,

01:47:39.840 | his mom was pregnant under communism,

01:47:42.240 | and she never even imagined he'd be free,

01:47:43.840 | and he was born under free.

01:47:45.560 | And they were all looking around all these countries

01:47:47.560 | that self-liberated, 'cause they're like,

01:47:49.440 | this is a trick, right?

01:47:50.280 | They're trying to figure out who's not good

01:47:52.520 | so that they can arrest us en masse, and they didn't.

01:47:54.840 | So even within communism,

01:47:58.880 | there are bad guys and better guys.

01:48:02.480 | - But we talked about anarchy, we talked about democracy.

01:48:06.120 | Do you see, like, there's democratic socialism

01:48:09.240 | conversations going on in the popular culture?

01:48:13.400 | Socialism is seen as like evil, or for some people, great.

01:48:18.400 | - Sure.

01:48:19.440 | - What are your thoughts about it

01:48:22.560 | as in a political ideology?

01:48:24.160 | - Evil.

01:48:25.360 | - So you're on the evil side, fundamentally.

01:48:27.680 | - Yes.

01:48:28.520 | - What is it?

01:48:30.600 | You know, what makes it evil?

01:48:34.880 | What's like structurally, if you were to try to analyze?

01:48:38.040 | - Sure, I say three ways.

01:48:39.960 | Morally, no person has the right to tell another person

01:48:42.560 | how to live their life.

01:48:43.720 | Economically, it's not possible

01:48:46.520 | to make calculations under socialism.

01:48:48.440 | It's only prices that are information that tells me,

01:48:51.760 | oh, we need to produce more of this,

01:48:53.400 | we need to produce less of this.

01:48:54.880 | Without prices being able to adjust

01:48:56.520 | and give information to producers and consumers,

01:48:59.960 | you have no way of being able to produce

01:49:02.040 | effectively or efficiently.

01:49:03.520 | And also, it is, it turns people against each other.

01:49:08.120 | When you force people to interact,

01:49:09.920 | when you force them into relationships,

01:49:11.320 | when you force them into jobs,

01:49:13.040 | and you don't give them any choice when there's a monopoly,

01:49:15.840 | the consequence of monopoly,

01:49:17.160 | everyone's familiar with ostensibly under capitalism,

01:49:19.760 | but somehow when it's a government monopoly,

01:49:21.520 | all those economic principles don't work,

01:49:23.040 | it doesn't make any sense.

01:49:24.320 | - But there's force in democracy too.

01:49:26.200 | It's just you're saying there's a bit more force

01:49:29.080 | in socialism. - Yeah.

01:49:32.280 | - But that's interesting that you say

01:49:33.600 | that there's not enough information.

01:49:34.920 | I mean, that's ultimately,

01:49:36.720 | you need to have really good data

01:49:40.400 | to achieve the goals of the system,

01:49:42.240 | even if there's no corruption.

01:49:45.000 | - Right.

01:49:45.840 | - You just need to have the information.

01:49:46.960 | - Right, which you can't.

01:49:48.240 | And capitalism provides you really strong--

01:49:53.240 | - Real time. - Real time information.

01:49:56.000 | And if capitalism at its best and cleanest,

01:50:02.680 | which is like perfect information is available,

01:50:05.600 | there's no manipulation of information.

01:50:07.640 | That's one of the problems.

01:50:10.080 | Okay.

01:50:10.920 | Can we talk about some candidates,

01:50:13.800 | the ones we got and possible alternatives?

01:50:17.240 | So one question I have is,

01:50:19.680 | why do we have within this system,

01:50:23.480 | why do we have the candidates we have?

01:50:25.480 | It seems, maybe you can correct me,

01:50:31.040 | highly unsatisfactory.

01:50:33.200 | Is anyone actually excited about our current candidates?

01:50:39.600 | - I'm kind of excited because no matter who wins,

01:50:42.840 | the elections can be hilarious.

01:50:44.480 | So that is something that I'm excited about.

01:50:46.840 | - From a humor perspective.

01:50:47.840 | - Yeah.

01:50:48.680 | - Is that what the whole system is about?

01:50:50.080 | So that's one theory of the case,

01:50:52.160 | is the entire thing is optimized for viewership.

01:50:56.000 | - Yeah.

01:50:56.840 | - And excitement by definitions

01:50:59.280 | of like the reality show kind of excitement.

01:51:01.560 | - I think it is,

01:51:04.360 | if you look at what happened with Brett Kavanaugh,

01:51:06.840 | this is not a career that would draw people who are,

01:51:11.840 | you might say quality.

01:51:14.640 | Because no matter who they are,

01:51:16.000 | there would be a huge incentive from the other team

01:51:18.840 | to denigrate them and humiliate them

01:51:21.000 | in the worst possible ways.

01:51:22.000 | Because as the two teams lose their legitimacy among GenPOP,

01:51:26.760 | it's gonna get harder and harder for them

01:51:28.160 | to maintain any kind of claims to authority,

01:51:30.680 | which is something I like,

01:51:32.120 | but which does kind of play out in certain nefarious ways.

01:51:36.120 | - So people, the best of the best

01:51:38.000 | are not gonna wanna be politicians.

01:51:40.120 | - Yeah, because I could have a job,

01:51:42.560 | where I have a job interview

01:51:43.440 | and I'm running Yahoo or whatever,

01:51:45.720 | or I could for 18 months have to eat corn dogs

01:51:49.880 | looking like I'm going down on someone and shake hands

01:51:52.080 | and have all this, my family,

01:51:54.760 | and on social media daily called the worst things for what?

01:51:58.880 | And then I'm still not guaranteed the position?

01:52:02.000 | - But the flip side of that,

01:52:04.080 | like from my perspective is the competition is weak.

01:52:07.160 | Meaning like you need a minimum amount of eloquence clearly

01:52:14.680 | that I don't, the bar which I did not pass.

01:52:17.880 | - I don't think either of them

01:52:18.880 | would be considered particularly eloquent, Biden or Trump.

01:52:21.280 | - No, I know, but that's what I'm saying.

01:52:22.800 | The competition, like if you were,

01:52:26.520 | wanted to become a politician,

01:52:28.240 | if you wanted to run for president,

01:52:30.280 | the opportunity is there, like if you were at all competent.

01:52:33.800 | Like if you had, so like Andrew Yang is an example

01:52:36.320 | of somebody who has a bunch of ideas,

01:52:37.840 | is somewhat eloquent, like young, energetic.

01:52:43.760 | It feels like there should be thousands of Andrew Yangs

01:52:47.160 | like that would enter the domain.

01:52:48.960 | - And he went nowhere.

01:52:50.400 | - Well, I wouldn't say he went nowhere.

01:52:54.200 | He generated quite a bit of excitement.

01:52:55.760 | He just didn't go very far.

01:52:57.480 | That's, okay.

01:52:59.820 | - You don't have to run for president

01:53:01.040 | to generate excitement with your ideas.

01:53:02.360 | You could be a podcast host.

01:53:03.440 | I'm not even joking.

01:53:04.280 | - That's right, that's right.

01:53:05.640 | That's right.

01:53:07.360 | And he's both, Andrew Yang.

01:53:09.880 | - Oh, he's a podcast?

01:53:10.840 | - Yeah, he has a podcast called Yang Speaks.

01:53:13.560 | - Oh, okay, cool.

01:53:14.620 | (laughing)

01:53:18.360 | - Oh, wow, the music of the way you said, yeah, cool,

01:53:24.540 | is the way my mom talks to me when I tell her

01:53:26.440 | there's something exciting going on in my life.

01:53:28.800 | Oh, that's nice, honey.

01:53:32.840 | - Oh, you made a robot, that's cool.

01:53:34.640 | (laughing)

01:53:35.960 | I'll mix coffee.

01:53:36.800 | - Oh, you're still single though, aren't you?

01:53:38.760 | (laughing)

01:53:40.720 | Huh, I wonder why, I wonder why.

01:53:43.160 | Make yourself a robot wife?

01:53:44.800 | Give me some robot grandchildren?

01:53:46.440 | - Okay.

01:53:50.040 | But first of all, okay, let me ask you about Andrew Yang

01:53:55.120 | 'cause he represents fresh energy.

01:53:58.960 | You don't find him fresh or energetic?

01:54:02.200 | Like, is there any candidate you wish was in the mix

01:54:07.200 | that was in the mix you wish was

01:54:09.360 | one of the last two remaining?

01:54:11.280 | - Yeah, people like Marianne Williamson I thought was great.

01:54:14.880 | Tulsi I thought was great.

01:54:16.560 | Amy Klobuchar got a bad rap.

01:54:18.840 | I think she held her own.

01:54:21.280 | Smart, she wasn't particularly funny, that's okay.

01:54:24.120 | I think she was non-threatening to a lot of people.

01:54:26.280 | - What did you like about them?

01:54:28.200 | - I guess it's named all women, that's interesting.

01:54:29.680 | It wasn't even intentional.

01:54:31.560 | Tulsi I like that she was aggressive, has a good resume,

01:54:34.600 | and is not staying the course for the establishment.

01:54:39.800 | Marianne Williamson I like 'cause she comes from a place

01:54:42.760 | from what it seems of genuine compassion.

01:54:45.040 | Maybe she's a sociopath, I don't know.

01:54:47.200 | I read her book and it actually affected me profoundly

01:54:50.640 | 'cause it's very rare when you read a book

01:54:53.320 | and there's even that one idea that blows your mind

01:54:55.520 | and that you kind of think about all the time.

01:54:56.880 | And there was one of that such idea in her book

01:54:59.040 | about she was teaching something called

01:55:01.280 | A Course in Miracles in Hollywood.

01:55:02.600 | I think she still teaches it.

01:55:04.160 | And this was during the '80s, the height of the AIDS crisis.

01:55:07.600 | And all these young men in the prime of their life

01:55:09.880 | were dropping like flies.

01:55:11.800 | And she's trying to give them hope.

01:55:13.240 | Well, good luck, they're dying, no one cares.

01:55:16.280 | And they're like, you can't tell us

01:55:17.800 | that they're gonna cure this.

01:55:20.120 | That's a lie.

01:55:21.520 | And she goes, what if I told you they're not gonna cure it?

01:55:25.460 | What if I told you it's gonna be to like diabetes?

01:55:28.240 | They cut off your foot and you're gonna go blind.

01:55:30.600 | Would that be something that you can hope for?

01:55:33.240 | And when you put it like that, it's like, yeah.

01:55:34.960 | Like if you're talking to someone who's like

01:55:35.800 | a homeless junkie and you're like,

01:55:37.140 | you could be a doctor, you're a lawyer,

01:55:38.680 | or a lawyer, like cool story.

01:55:39.880 | Like you could have a studio apartment

01:55:43.440 | with a terrible roommate and a shitty job.

01:55:45.920 | But when you're on the street, you know,

01:55:48.440 | cooking breakfast in a teaspoon,

01:55:50.680 | and you hear that, you're like, wait,

01:55:52.240 | would that really be so bad?

01:55:53.360 | Is that really so much worse than this?

01:55:54.840 | No, and it becomes something.

01:55:56.280 | So when she put it in those terms, I'm like, wow,

01:55:59.080 | this woman that really did a number on me

01:56:01.720 | in terms of teaching people how to be hopeful.

01:56:04.800 | - Small steps.

01:56:05.940 | - But it's also, then it becomes less of,

01:56:08.180 | I need a miracle to be like, oh, this is really manageable.

01:56:11.620 | And it's absurd to think it's impossible.

01:56:15.060 | - What about, what's your take on UD 2020

01:56:17.980 | that Brett Weinstein pushed forward?

01:56:22.980 | - It was DOA.

01:56:24.060 | He couldn't even stand up to Twitter.

01:56:26.340 | - Dead on arrival.

01:56:27.180 | - Dead on arrival.

01:56:28.000 | He couldn't even stand up to Twitter,

01:56:29.060 | let alone or to Facebook.

01:56:30.380 | They got blocked, let alone to the Facebook.

01:56:31.220 | - It was not hugely problematic, by the way,

01:56:33.660 | that Twitter would block that.

01:56:35.640 | - Not at all.

01:56:36.580 | I don't know why they blocked it, but I believe,

01:56:39.000 | I don't know, problematic means.

01:56:40.440 | That's a word that does a lot of work

01:56:42.560 | that people wanted to do conceptually.

01:56:45.620 | The idea that like unity is like taking the rejects

01:56:48.640 | from each party and we're gonna like have something

01:56:51.160 | that no one likes and therefore it's gonna be a compromise

01:56:53.160 | is absurd.

01:56:54.480 | The last time we had this kind of unity ticket

01:56:56.720 | was the Civil War, when you had Andrew Johnson

01:56:59.440 | from the Democrats and Lincoln from the Republicans.

01:57:01.640 | This was not something that ended well,

01:57:03.700 | particularly nicely for both halves of the country.

01:57:05.940 | - So that's the way you see it is,

01:57:08.300 | like the way I saw it, I guess I haven't looked carefully

01:57:11.260 | at it.

01:57:12.100 | - I haven't either, to be fair.

01:57:13.580 | - The way I saw it is emphasizing centrists, which is--

01:57:17.140 | - How is Tulsi a centrist?

01:57:19.180 | - Tulsi was involved?

01:57:20.060 | - Yes, he's trying to push Tulsi

01:57:21.460 | and like Jesse Ventura or something.

01:57:23.260 | - Oh, so, okay, I don't know.

01:57:26.340 | I don't know the specifics.

01:57:27.180 | - As a scientist, you also know centrism

01:57:28.900 | is not a coherent term in politics.

01:57:30.580 | But see, now you're like, what is it?

01:57:34.280 | Pleading to authority and my ego.

01:57:37.600 | - No, no, I'm pleading to how you approach data.

01:57:40.240 | If someone is saying the mean is accurate,

01:57:42.680 | that only means, I mean, the mean could be anywhere.

01:57:45.020 | It's a function of what's around it.

01:57:46.200 | It doesn't mean it's true.

01:57:47.080 | - I don't even know what centrist is supposed to mean,

01:57:49.640 | but what it means to me, there's no idea.

01:57:53.280 | A centrist, there's more of a center right or center left.

01:57:58.620 | To me, what that means is somebody who is a liberal

01:58:02.680 | or a conservative, but is open-minded

01:58:07.680 | and empathetic to the other side.

01:58:13.200 | - Joe Biden had the crime bill.

01:58:15.600 | Joe Biden voted for Republican Supreme Court justices.

01:58:18.360 | Joe Biden voted for a balanced budget.

01:58:19.960 | Joe Biden voted for Bush's war.

01:58:21.960 | And I'm sure probably haven't looked this up,

01:58:23.120 | the Patriot Act.

01:58:24.340 | If you want a centrist, you have Joe Biden.

01:58:26.040 | - Yeah, okay.

01:58:26.920 | - He's worked very well with the Republican--

01:58:28.440 | - That argument could be made.

01:58:29.380 | Of course, everybody will always resist that argument.

01:58:33.460 | - It's undeniable.

01:58:34.300 | In fact, during the campaign,

01:58:35.940 | some activists started yelling at him at a town hall.

01:58:40.860 | Not yelling, just saying, "Hey, we need open borders."

01:58:43.580 | Joe Biden says, "I'm not for open borders.

01:58:45.500 | Go vote for Trump," and literally turned his back on the man.

01:58:48.820 | And this is during the primaries,

01:58:50.180 | where it would behoove you to try to appeal to the base.

01:58:53.940 | - And of course, you can probably also make the argument

01:58:55.860 | that Donald Trump is center-right, if not center-left.

01:58:59.240 | - Well, I mean, he's very unique as a personality.

01:59:04.240 | But if you look at his record,

01:59:05.480 | and first of all, his rhetoric,

01:59:06.680 | you can say is not centrist at all.

01:59:08.480 | But in terms of how he governs,

01:59:10.480 | the budgeting has been very moderate.

01:59:13.480 | It certainly hasn't been like draconian budget cuts.

01:59:16.080 | The Supreme Court, you could say, okay, he's hard right.

01:59:18.320 | Immigration, you could say in certain capacities,

01:59:20.280 | he's hard right.

01:59:21.160 | But in terms of pro-life, what has he done there?

01:59:24.520 | In terms of, so it's in many other aspects,

01:59:27.420 | he's been very much this kind of me too Republican.

01:59:30.700 | But certainly the rhetoric,

01:59:31.580 | it's very hard to make him the case that he's a centrist.

01:59:33.740 | - So you don't like,

01:59:35.140 | is there any other idea you find compelling?

01:59:37.820 | What I like about UND 2020 is it's an idea

01:59:41.700 | for a different way, for a different party,

01:59:46.260 | a different path forward.

01:59:47.700 | So ideas, just like anarchy, is an interesting idea

01:59:51.340 | that leads to discourse, that leads to--

01:59:53.580 | - I don't think it's interesting at all.

01:59:54.640 | And here's why I don't think it's interesting.

01:59:56.600 | Sweden has eight parties in its parliament.

01:59:59.960 | Iceland population is like 150,000.

02:00:02.040 | They've got nine, I think it was.

02:00:03.320 | Czech Republic has nine, Britain has five.

02:00:06.120 | So the claim that two parties is the censorious of speech,

02:00:11.120 | but three, oh, now all of a sudden it makes no sense.

02:00:15.280 | It doesn't port to the data, number one.

02:00:16.640 | Number two is Donald Trump demonstrated

02:00:18.820 | that you can be basically a third party candidate.

02:00:21.000 | Seize the machinery of an existing party

02:00:23.860 | and appropriate to your own ends.

02:00:25.380 | As Bernie Sanders almost did.

02:00:27.020 | Bernie Sanders has never been a Democrat.

02:00:29.300 | Major credit to him for that's not easy to be elected

02:00:31.980 | as Senator as an independent.

02:00:33.000 | He's done it repeatedly.

02:00:34.140 | So these are two examples of ossified elites

02:00:37.400 | ripe for the picking.

02:00:38.240 | So to have a third party makes no real sense.

02:00:42.860 | - Speaking of which, a party you talk about quite a bit.

02:00:48.740 | And this is a personal challenge to you.

02:00:53.120 | Let me bring up the Libertarian Party.

02:00:55.480 | And the personal challenge is to go five minutes

02:00:58.800 | without mocking them in discussing this idea.

02:01:03.120 | So first of all--

02:01:04.280 | - I'm being trolled.

02:01:07.160 | Okay, I'm being trolled.

02:01:09.520 | Okay, I'm being trolled.

02:01:10.720 | I'm being trolled, okay, this is good.

02:01:13.320 | Do you remember the fun friends?

02:01:14.720 | There was an episode where Chandler

02:01:16.000 | had to not make fun of people.

02:01:17.560 | Like can you go one day Chandler?

02:01:19.220 | And Phoebe starts telling him about this UFO she saw.

02:01:22.820 | And he's like that's very interesting and nice for you.

02:01:26.480 | - This is exactly that.

02:01:29.300 | So a true master would be able to play the game

02:01:31.960 | within the constraints.

02:01:33.060 | No, I'm pretty sure you'll still mock them.

02:01:36.340 | - No, no, I'll stick to the rules.

02:01:38.500 | Five minutes, easy.

02:01:39.620 | - So first of all, speaking broadly about libertarianism,

02:01:42.700 | can you speak to that, how you feel about it?

02:01:44.860 | And then also to the Libertarian Party

02:01:46.980 | which is the implementation of it in our current system.

02:01:49.700 | - So I think libertarianism is a great idea.

02:01:53.740 | And I think there's many libertarian ideas

02:01:56.060 | that have become much more mainstream

02:01:58.140 | which I'm very, very happy about.

02:01:59.640 | I remember there was an article in either New York

02:02:02.300 | or New Yorker Magazine in the early 90s

02:02:05.180 | where they talked about the Cato Institute

02:02:06.740 | which is a libertarian think tank.

02:02:08.500 | And they refer to the fact that Cato was against war

02:02:12.020 | and against like regulation with a wacky consistency

02:02:16.220 | 'cause they didn't know how to reconcile these two things.

02:02:18.580 | I don't remember what the two things were

02:02:19.540 | but I remember that expression, wacky consistency.

02:02:22.140 | And it wasn't even, we were all taught

02:02:25.220 | and this is very much before the internet

02:02:27.200 | that there's two tribes and if you're pro-life,

02:02:30.780 | you have to hate gays.

02:02:32.500 | And if you're for socialized medicine,

02:02:34.980 | that also means you have to be for free speech.

02:02:39.980 | And like there's a whole menu

02:02:42.100 | and you got to sign into all of them.

02:02:43.460 | And that menu is terrible.

02:02:45.740 | They hate America, they want to destroy it.

02:02:47.500 | Oh my God, those are horrible.

02:02:48.940 | This is the menu you want.

02:02:50.300 | And the libertarian party to some extent

02:02:52.620 | and just libertarians as a whole said,

02:02:54.300 | you know, you can do the Chinese buffet

02:02:57.100 | and take a little from column A, a little from column B

02:02:59.500 | and have an ideology that is coherent and consistent

02:03:03.860 | and ideology of peace and non-aggression

02:03:07.620 | and things like that.

02:03:08.780 | The libertarian party takes its model

02:03:12.620 | from like the early progressive and populist parties

02:03:15.260 | from the early 20th century,

02:03:16.700 | which were not very effective

02:03:18.420 | in terms of getting people elected,

02:03:20.860 | but were extremely effective

02:03:23.260 | in terms of getting the two major parties to appropriate

02:03:26.100 | and adopt their ideas and implement them.

02:03:27.980 | And in Britain as well, the liberal party got destroyed

02:03:30.460 | and became taken over by labor

02:03:32.180 | as the alternative party to the Tories

02:03:34.860 | and have those ideas basically become mainstreamed.

02:03:38.660 | So I think that, and the libertarian,

02:03:40.460 | my friend who passed away, Eric, I miss him dearly,

02:03:43.540 | was their webmaster.

02:03:44.580 | And his whole point is,

02:03:46.020 | if you don't think of it in terms of a party,

02:03:47.660 | in terms of getting people elected,

02:03:49.100 | but if you think of it as a party

02:03:50.300 | in terms of getting people educated about alternatives,

02:03:53.900 | then there's enormous use for that.

02:03:55.820 | That was his perspective.

02:03:56.740 | And I don't think that's an absurd perspective,

02:03:58.740 | but here's some libertarian ideas

02:04:00.180 | that have become extremely mainstream.

02:04:02.380 | War should be a last resort.

02:04:04.700 | This is something we were taught as kids and we all say,

02:04:07.100 | but for many years, it's been like,

02:04:09.260 | they don't think of it as a last resort.

02:04:10.420 | It's like, something's bad.

02:04:11.260 | Well, it's like the first instinct.

02:04:12.940 | Now it's like, let's really give it a week, just a week.

02:04:15.460 | Like what's going on in Syria.

02:04:16.780 | Is there really gonna be a genocide, the Kurds,

02:04:18.860 | you know, things like that.

02:04:19.700 | So that's one.

02:04:20.520 | Another thing is drug legalization.

02:04:22.860 | This was, you know, when you and I were kids,

02:04:24.980 | oh, it's crazy.

02:04:25.820 | It's only hippies who wanna smoke pot.

02:04:27.260 | Now it's like, I was on a grand jury

02:04:30.020 | and the point people make is,

02:04:32.460 | are you sure that this 16 year old who's selling weed,

02:04:35.980 | let's say selling, should his life be ruined?

02:04:39.660 | Should he be imprisoned with rapists and murderers?

02:04:41.960 | Like if you say yes, say yes,

02:04:44.860 | but you have to acknowledge that that's what you're meaning.

02:04:48.940 | And then a lot of people are like, wait a minute,

02:04:50.780 | there's gotta be a third option.

02:04:52.100 | Then he has no consequences

02:04:53.940 | or he's in prison with a rapist.

02:04:55.300 | Like I'm not comfortable with either of these.

02:04:57.680 | And I think the other one is an increasing skepticism.

02:05:01.220 | This libertarians were on top of this first

02:05:02.820 | and the hard left of the police.

02:05:05.300 | As of now, asset forfeiture steals more from people

02:05:08.380 | than burglaries, what people don't know

02:05:09.740 | about what asset forfeiture is.

02:05:11.340 | If the cops come to your house and they suspect you,

02:05:13.860 | you haven't been convicted of using your car or your house

02:05:17.720 | or whatever in terms of selling drugs,

02:05:20.000 | they can take whatever they want.

02:05:22.460 | And then you have to sue to prove your innocence

02:05:25.260 | and get your property back.

02:05:26.340 | It's a complete violation of due process.

02:05:28.260 | People don't realize this going on.

02:05:29.540 | It's a great way for the cops to increase their budgets

02:05:31.900 | and it's legal.

02:05:32.980 | And libertarians were like the first big ones saying,

02:05:35.660 | guys, this is not American and this is crazy.

02:05:37.940 | And now increasingly people, conservatives and leftists

02:05:40.740 | are like, wait a minute, this is,

02:05:42.700 | even if you are selling drugs, like they take your house,

02:05:44.620 | what are you talking about?

02:05:45.780 | So I think those are some mechanisms that libertarianism,

02:05:49.260 | though not by name, has become far more popular.

02:05:52.540 | - Yeah, it's interesting.

02:05:53.380 | So the idea, yeah, a coherent set of ideas

02:05:56.820 | that eventually get integrated into a two-party system.

02:06:01.660 | The war, that's an interesting one.

02:06:03.220 | You're right.

02:06:04.060 | I wonder what the thread there is.

02:06:07.380 | I wonder how it connects to 9/11 and so on.

02:06:11.020 | - I think the Patriot Act.

02:06:13.820 | - Patriot Act, okay.

02:06:14.660 | - For people who are politically savvy,

02:06:16.820 | we're like, oh, okay, this is not a joke.

02:06:20.740 | This is really a crazy infringement of our freedoms.

02:06:24.140 | And both parties are falling over each other

02:06:27.020 | to sign into law and the Orwellian name.

02:06:29.940 | How can you be against patriotism?

02:06:32.380 | What kind of person?

02:06:33.220 | You know what I mean?

02:06:34.060 | So I think for a lot of people,

02:06:34.880 | especially both civil libertarians on the left

02:06:37.220 | and a lot of conservatives who are constitutionalists

02:06:39.380 | are like, wait a minute, this isn't,

02:06:40.980 | I'm not comfortable with this.

02:06:42.300 | And I'm also not comfortable

02:06:43.340 | with how comfortable everyone in Washington is with it.

02:06:45.700 | - You're right.

02:06:46.540 | Probably libertarians and libertarianism

02:06:50.540 | is a place of ideas, which is why I have a connection to it.

02:06:53.740 | Every time I listen to those folks, I like 'em.

02:07:00.420 | I feel connected to 'em.

02:07:01.540 | I would even sometimes, depending on the day,

02:07:03.420 | call myself a libertarian.

02:07:05.180 | - But we're on the spectrum, so that's why.

02:07:06.620 | - We're on the spectrum, yeah.

02:07:08.300 | But when I look at the people

02:07:10.020 | that actually rise to the top

02:07:12.480 | in terms of the people who represent the party,

02:07:15.580 | this is where five minutes ran out, right?

02:07:18.100 | - I could go, I'm allowed.

02:07:19.740 | - You can go, why are they so weird?

02:07:22.340 | Why aren't strong candidates emerging

02:07:26.800 | that represent as political representatives

02:07:31.900 | or as famous speakers that represent the ideology?

02:07:36.900 | - I think libertarians tend to,

02:07:40.340 | I think Jonathan Haidt in his book, in his research,

02:07:43.060 | he's a political scientist,

02:07:44.180 | and he does a lot of things

02:07:45.020 | about how people come to their political conclusions

02:07:46.740 | and what factors force people to reach conclusions.

02:07:50.860 | And he found that libertarians are the least empathetic

02:07:53.660 | and most rationalistic of all the groups.

02:07:56.100 | And by that, he means they think in terms of logic

02:07:58.140 | as opposed to people's feelings.

02:07:59.660 | And that has positives and has negatives.

02:08:02.060 | And we have the AB testing with Ron Paul.

02:08:07.100 | Ron Paul ran for president as a libertarian nominee.

02:08:10.580 | He was the nominee.

02:08:11.780 | He got pretty much nowhere in 1988.

02:08:14.040 | Then he ran as a return to Republican Party

02:08:16.100 | as a congressman for many years from Texas.

02:08:18.020 | He ran for the presidency in 2008 and 2012.

02:08:22.480 | And in 2008, he stood on stage with Rudy Giuliani

02:08:26.540 | and told him that they were here in 9/11

02:08:29.060 | because we're over there,

02:08:30.340 | which would have been a shocking,

02:08:32.820 | horrifying taboo a few years earlier.

02:08:35.100 | Many people were like, "Holy crap, this is amazing.

02:08:37.260 | "Giuliani was all offended."

02:08:38.460 | And Ron Paul's like--

02:08:39.300 | - That took some guts, by the way.

02:08:40.580 | - Yeah, it did.

02:08:41.940 | - When I heard that, it was so refreshing.

02:08:44.180 | Not what he said,

02:08:45.620 | but the fact that he said something that took guts.

02:08:48.260 | It made me realize how rare it is for politicians,

02:08:53.260 | but even people, to say something that takes guts.

02:08:56.020 | - Well, it's also the idea that you can't,

02:08:58.700 | even if you think America has a right

02:09:01.140 | to invade any country on Earth as much as it wants

02:09:04.020 | and kill people as a consequence of war

02:09:06.580 | and blow up their buildings and destroy their country,

02:09:09.420 | you can't, with a straight face,

02:09:11.080 | not expect us to have consequences,

02:09:13.820 | even if they're consequences from evil people.

02:09:15.980 | Even if we're 100% the good guys

02:09:17.660 | and they're 100% the bad guys,

02:09:19.100 | those bad guys, some of them are still gonna try

02:09:21.120 | to do something, what happens next?

02:09:23.500 | You know what I mean?

02:09:24.340 | So that kind of concept,

02:09:25.940 | that there's any American culpability

02:09:28.580 | was we're America, we're the good guys.

02:09:30.980 | By definition, we're not culpable.

02:09:32.420 | To have people start thinking about,

02:09:34.140 | what if there's another way?

02:09:35.540 | You know, what if we're not there

02:09:37.140 | and then they're not here

02:09:38.100 | and we're kind of doing a backdoor,

02:09:39.620 | we're talking, so different scenarios.

02:09:41.860 | So the fact that he got so much more traction

02:09:44.560 | as a Republican, the fact that Donald Trump,

02:09:47.580 | who came out of nowhere,

02:09:48.940 | became not only the candidate,

02:09:50.660 | but the president, tells people,

02:09:52.980 | it's like getting a book deal, right?

02:09:54.860 | You can either go, there's three choices.

02:09:57.460 | You can either self-publish, mainstream publisher,

02:10:00.540 | or independent publisher.

02:10:03.180 | The independent publisher is the worst of all choices

02:10:05.940 | 'cause you're not getting a big advance,

02:10:07.960 | they're not gonna be able to promote you a lot

02:10:10.580 | and they don't get the distribution.

02:10:12.900 | Mainstream, I've done mainstream myself, right?

02:10:15.460 | With self, I don't have the cred,

02:10:18.280 | the respectability of a mainstream, or the cachet.

02:10:20.580 | - Can't be a New York Times bestseller.

02:10:22.620 | - Right, it takes a lot of work,

02:10:24.340 | but I get a lot more of the profit

02:10:26.980 | if it looks good on the shelf,

02:10:28.140 | on Amazon, looks identical, so on and so forth.

02:10:30.420 | With the mainstream, the benefits and costs

02:10:32.420 | are pretty much obvious to most people.

02:10:34.300 | So the same thing, it's like,

02:10:35.340 | you can either be an independent like Ross Perot,

02:10:37.840 | or you could be, just seize, one of the party apparatus,

02:10:41.180 | which the benefits are enormous there.

02:10:42.900 | But in terms of going third party,

02:10:45.140 | I don't know the Libertarian Party apparatus

02:10:47.060 | other than maybe some ballot access

02:10:48.860 | is really that efficacious.

02:10:50.720 | And then you're gonna have a lot of baggage

02:10:52.580 | 'cause if you hear independent, Jesse Ventura, Ross Perot,

02:10:56.080 | you think of the person.

02:10:57.400 | Now you have to define yourself

02:10:59.340 | and you have to defend the party,

02:11:01.220 | that's two bridges for most people.

02:11:03.160 | - Brilliantly put.

02:11:05.260 | - Okay, thank you.

02:11:06.300 | (laughing)

02:11:08.180 | - Let me speak to, 'cause I'm speaking to Yaron Brooks.

02:11:11.580 | - Oh gosh. - Yeah.

02:11:12.740 | - I like him.

02:11:15.060 | - Yeah, so, but that, another example, I was--

02:11:19.180 | - Ask him to tell you a joke about Ayn Rand,

02:11:21.500 | if he can do it.

02:11:23.860 | - So there, that's one criticism I've heard you say,

02:11:26.920 | which is they're unable to speak to any weaknesses

02:11:31.000 | in either Ayn Rand's or objectivist worldview.

02:11:34.320 | - Yes.

02:11:35.300 | - That's really, you put it, I know you're half joking,

02:11:39.640 | but that's actually a legitimate discussion to have.

02:11:43.360 | - I'm not joking at all.

02:11:44.480 | - Because that's, to me, one of the criticisms

02:11:47.560 | and one of the explanations why the world

02:11:49.320 | seems to disrespect Ayn Rand, the people that do,

02:11:53.680 | is she kind of implies that her ideas are flawless.

02:11:58.680 | - No, she says they correspond to reality.

02:12:01.420 | - Yeah, right.

02:12:02.320 | - That's the term she uses.

02:12:03.720 | - That, I mean, objective, it's in the name,

02:12:08.320 | it's just facts.

02:12:11.000 | Like, it's impossible to basically argue against,

02:12:14.160 | 'cause it's pretty simple, it's just all facts.

02:12:16.800 | - Well, it's possible to argue against,

02:12:18.380 | but she would say she's never met a good critic

02:12:20.860 | who can argue the facts of that misrepresentation.

02:12:22.960 | - And she's not entirely wrong.

02:12:24.120 | She's often caricatured, 'cause she has

02:12:25.680 | a very extreme personality and extreme worldview.

02:12:28.200 | - But that, to me, I mean, some people,

02:12:30.080 | there's a guy named, in the physics mathematics community,

02:12:32.720 | called Stephen Wolfram, I don't know if you've heard of him.

02:12:35.200 | - Wolfram Alpha?

02:12:36.040 | - Yeah. - Okay.

02:12:36.880 | - He has a similar style of speaking sometimes,

02:12:39.720 | which is like, I've created a science,

02:12:44.200 | but that turns a lot of people off,

02:12:46.560 | like this kind of weird confidence,

02:12:48.840 | but he's one of my favorite people,

02:12:50.440 | I think one of the most brilliant people.

02:12:52.560 | If you just ignore that little bit of ego,

02:12:56.080 | or whatever you call that,

02:12:57.960 | that there's some beautiful ideas in there.

02:12:59.960 | - He's an amazing person.

02:13:01.240 | - And that, for me, objectivism,

02:13:03.440 | I'm undereducated about it.

02:13:05.080 | About it.

02:13:06.040 | I hope to be more educated,

02:13:08.400 | but there's some interesting ideas that,

02:13:10.480 | again, just like with UFOs,

02:13:12.360 | not that there's a connection between the two.

02:13:15.200 | - Don't bring that up for your own, he won't like it.

02:13:17.640 | - He won't. - "Iron Man's like UFOs.

02:13:19.120 | Oh, no, no, no, this interview is over."

02:13:21.240 | (Lex laughing)

02:13:23.320 | That's a good yarn, okay.

02:13:25.240 | But you have to be a little bit open-minded,

02:13:27.560 | but what's your sense of objectivism?

02:13:31.560 | Are there interesting ideas

02:13:32.840 | that are useful to you to think about?

02:13:35.640 | - I own her copy of the first printing of the Fountainhead,

02:13:38.480 | so that should tell you a little bit

02:13:39.680 | about how my affection for Miss Rand,

02:13:41.600 | how heavy that goes.

02:13:42.800 | Ayn Rand does not have all the answers,

02:13:46.040 | but she has all the questions.

02:13:47.680 | So if you study Rand,

02:13:49.120 | you are going to be forced to think

02:13:50.640 | through some very basic things,

02:13:52.160 | and you're gonna have your eyes open very, very heavily.

02:13:54.960 | She was not perfect.

02:13:56.120 | She never claimed to be perfect.

02:13:57.400 | She was asked on Donahue,

02:13:59.400 | "Is it true that according to your philosophy,

02:14:01.320 | you are a perfect being?"

02:14:02.560 | She said, "I never think of myself that way."

02:14:05.120 | And she said, "But if you ask me,

02:14:06.480 | do I practice what I preach?"

02:14:07.600 | The answer is yes, resoundingly.

02:14:10.240 | She's a fascinating woman.

02:14:12.320 | What is really interesting about her,

02:14:15.520 | and this is something you'd appreciate personally,

02:14:17.880 | is when you read her essays,

02:14:19.400 | she'll have these weird asides.

02:14:21.800 | And she would talk about art,

02:14:23.040 | and she'd be like, "And this is why the US

02:14:24.240 | should be the only country with nuclear weapons."

02:14:25.960 | And when you follow a brilliant mind

02:14:28.200 | making these seemingly disparate connections,

02:14:31.360 | it's something I find to be just absolutely inspiring

02:14:33.640 | and awesome and entertaining.

02:14:35.160 | I think there's lots of things about her

02:14:38.480 | that people like Yaron would make uncomfortable.

02:14:40.880 | Well, like she, they, so objectivism,

02:14:46.480 | like any other philosophy,

02:14:47.720 | they give us all these techniques

02:14:49.040 | to kind of hand wave away things

02:14:50.880 | you don't wanna talk about and like pretend it.

02:14:52.800 | So they talk about things like having

02:14:54.360 | no metaphysical significance, right?

02:14:57.000 | So what that means is like, "Well, what about this?

02:14:58.640 | Ah, I don't wanna talk about it.

02:14:59.480 | Like, it doesn't matter."

02:15:00.640 | Like it literally means it fancy,

02:15:02.120 | a philosophical term, it doesn't matter.

02:15:03.840 | Or they will say correctly

02:15:06.120 | that it's very twisted in our culture

02:15:09.560 | that when we have heroes, we look for their flaws

02:15:12.520 | instead of looking for their virtues.

02:15:13.920 | That's a 100% valid perspective.

02:15:16.400 | However, if I'm sitting here telling you

02:15:19.520 | that I think this woman is a badass and she's amazing

02:15:23.120 | and she should be studied,

02:15:24.640 | but there's also these idiosyncrasies,

02:15:26.600 | they don't wanna hear it.

02:15:27.880 | Because they, and I think it's very convenient for them

02:15:30.280 | 'cause there's a lot of things she did that were,

02:15:32.200 | here's an example.

02:15:33.320 | Rand was very, very pro a happiness and poor pleasure.

02:15:36.680 | She was very pro sex, which is kind of surprising

02:15:39.360 | looking at her and how she talked and how strident she was.

02:15:41.800 | As a result of this, she never got her cats fixed

02:15:44.960 | to deny them the pleasure of orgasm.

02:15:46.920 | So her male cats are spraying up her entire house.

02:15:49.960 | Like that is, I mean, that's her putting her philosophy

02:15:53.400 | into practice, but it's still gross.

02:15:55.880 | So that's the kind of thing where I don't think he'd be.

02:15:58.160 | Another thing is Rand had an article on a woman president

02:16:01.920 | and she said a woman should never be president, right?

02:16:04.440 | Now, when Rand says things that are too goofy for them,

02:16:06.960 | they say, "Oh, that's not objectivism.

02:16:09.560 | "That's her personal preference."

02:16:11.120 | It's like she did not have these lines.

02:16:14.320 | Objectivism was always defined as Ayn Rand's writings,

02:16:18.200 | plus the additional essays in her books.

02:16:20.200 | So if this was in part of those books,

02:16:22.240 | this counts as official objectivism,

02:16:24.040 | but they pretend otherwise.

02:16:25.240 | So that's another example.

02:16:26.440 | Plus they, she was, and I bet you she was on the spectrum

02:16:30.120 | to some extent, I'm not joking.

02:16:31.300 | I'm not using that derisively.

02:16:32.720 | She was of the belief and not inaccurately

02:16:36.520 | because that humor is used to denigrate and humiliate.

02:16:40.880 | And she was thinking about the Jon Stewart type

02:16:42.680 | before there was a Jon Stewart.

02:16:43.880 | And a lot of times, like how I use mocking,

02:16:46.560 | but she was resentful, correctly,

02:16:49.320 | that a lot of times people who are great and accomplished,

02:16:51.880 | little nobodies will make a punchline

02:16:54.960 | just to bring them down and just bother.

02:16:56.720 | Here's an example I just thought of.

02:16:58.120 | I remember in, I remember when it was,

02:16:59.960 | must've been the '90s,

02:17:01.160 | they had a segment on MTV of all these musicians

02:17:04.760 | who were making their own perfumes, right?

02:17:07.480 | And this girl grabbed Prince's perfume.

02:17:09.360 | And before she even smelled it, she had the joke ready.

02:17:11.080 | She just, "Oh, this smells almost as bad

02:17:13.160 | "as his music lately."

02:17:14.360 | It's like, first of all, I'm sure the perfume's fine.

02:17:16.640 | And second of all, this is Prince.

02:17:18.160 | He's one of the all-time greats

02:17:19.720 | and you can't wait to denigrate him.

02:17:22.800 | Like how, and part, I wanna be like,

02:17:24.400 | "Ran, like how dare you?"

02:17:25.680 | Like as if this perfume in any way,

02:17:29.400 | in any way mitigates his amazing accomplishments

02:17:32.040 | and achievements, you horrible person.

02:17:34.080 | But I do have some great Ayn Rand jokes

02:17:36.600 | and he would not be happy about them.

02:17:38.520 | - The perfume thing, the problem with it is just not funny.

02:17:40.960 | Not that- - Oh, he sucks.

02:17:42.360 | Okay, great.

02:17:43.480 | - Not that they dared to try to be humorous.

02:17:47.400 | 'Cause I don't know why you mentioned Jonester,

02:17:48.840 | 'cause Jonester can be funny.

02:17:50.480 | - Right, but he taught a generation,

02:17:53.320 | you still see this on Twitter,

02:17:55.080 | where things have to be inherently sarcastic and snide.

02:17:58.920 | - But isn't that, I mean, aren't you practicing that?

02:18:00.920 | - No, I use irony, not sarcasm.

02:18:02.800 | Here's an example.

02:18:03.640 | When people, like you say something

02:18:05.240 | and someone replied, it'd be like,

02:18:06.320 | "Um, last I checked, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

02:18:08.760 | And I'll say that.

02:18:09.600 | I go, "What do you think saying last I checked

02:18:11.240 | "added to your point?

02:18:12.080 | "You're giving me valuable information and data,

02:18:14.440 | "but you are trained to believe

02:18:16.400 | "that it has to be couched in this sneering.

02:18:19.420 | "It doesn't, just give me the information.

02:18:21.080 | "This is useful information."

02:18:22.520 | - Yeah, that's true.

02:18:24.080 | - It's a knee jerk.

02:18:25.000 | - But see, Jon Stewart did it masterfully, I thought.

02:18:27.160 | - Correct, and they don't.

02:18:28.120 | - And they don't.

02:18:29.080 | It's like people who copy certain comedians,

02:18:32.040 | you try to copy them and you lose everything

02:18:35.800 | in the process of copying.

02:18:37.040 | Yeah, yeah, okay.

02:18:41.180 | But in terms of the philosophy of selfishness,

02:18:44.940 | this kind of individual focused idea,

02:18:47.940 | I imagine that connects with you.

02:18:50.900 | - Yes, and I think it would connect with more people

02:18:53.020 | if they understood what she meant by it.

02:18:54.340 | Nathanael Brandon, who was her heir

02:18:55.860 | until she kind of broke with him

02:18:57.180 | and he was a co-dedicatee of Atlas Shrugged,

02:19:00.420 | said, "No one will say Ayn Rand's views

02:19:03.380 | "with a straight face.

02:19:04.220 | "They won't say, I believe that my happiness matters

02:19:08.140 | "and is important and is worth fighting for

02:19:10.400 | "and that Ayn Rand says this, then she's dangerous."

02:19:13.060 | Now, it's very easy to say this could have

02:19:15.140 | dangerous consequences if you're a sociopath,

02:19:17.600 | but to put it in those terms, I think is extremely healthy.

02:19:21.220 | I think more people should wanna be happy.

02:19:23.020 | And I think a lot of us are raised to be apologetic,

02:19:26.620 | especially in this cynical media culture,

02:19:29.380 | that if you say, I wanna be happy, I wanna love my life,

02:19:32.380 | that it's just like, okay, sweetheart.

02:19:34.260 | And the eye rolling, and I think that's so pernicious,

02:19:37.180 | it's so horrifying, and this is why I'm a Camus person,

02:19:39.540 | 'cause Camus thought the arch enemy was cynicism

02:19:41.420 | and I could not agree more.

02:19:42.860 | Like if you are the kind of person,

02:19:44.100 | if someone likes a band and you're like,

02:19:45.420 | oh, she likes them, blah, blah, blah,

02:19:46.620 | it's like, this gives them happiness.

02:19:48.980 | - Yeah. - Now, there's certain

02:19:49.800 | exceptions, but if it gives you happiness,

02:19:51.540 | it's not for you, that's cool.

02:19:53.260 | - Okay, this is beautiful.

02:19:55.860 | I so agree with you on the eye rolling,

02:19:59.380 | but you see the best of trolling as not the eye roll.

02:20:04.140 | - Correct, of course not.

02:20:05.360 | - The best of trolling is taking down the eye rollers.

02:20:08.940 | - I'm gonna have to think about that.

02:20:10.180 | - Okay.

02:20:11.020 | - 'Cause I-- - Have another Red Bull.

02:20:12.420 | - Yeah, I was, yeah, 'cause I put 'em all--

02:20:16.340 | - My blood type is Red Bull.

02:20:17.700 | (laughing)

02:20:19.940 | - I kind of put 'em all in the same bin.

02:20:22.840 | - Okay. - And they're not.

02:20:23.760 | - They're not. - They're not, okay.

02:20:25.760 | All right.

02:20:26.920 | - Here's another example of trolling.

02:20:29.180 | I was making jokes about Ron Paul, he just had a stroke.

02:20:32.260 | Right, and someone came at me and they're like,

02:20:35.100 | oh, blah, blah, blah, you're ugly,

02:20:37.480 | I hope you have a stroke, I hope you're in the hospital.

02:20:39.480 | And I just go, I just did have a stroke on your mom's face.

02:20:42.320 | So they came at me and now they got put in their place.

02:20:46.020 | - With a subpar, I mean--

02:20:50.360 | - I wasn't clever.

02:20:51.320 | - You weren't clever.

02:20:52.440 | - Not particularly, no.

02:20:53.680 | - Well, one of your things you do, which is interesting,

02:20:57.040 | I mean, I give you props in a sense,

02:20:59.320 | is you're willing to go farther than people expect you to.

02:21:03.880 | - Yes, that's fun.

02:21:05.220 | - Yeah, in fact, I'll probably edit out

02:21:07.940 | like half of this podcast because the thing you did

02:21:11.300 | which she kept in, should mention,

02:21:14.180 | Michaela Peterson now has a podcast, which is nice.

02:21:16.900 | I guess, was it on her podcast?

02:21:18.420 | - She was on mine.

02:21:19.260 | - She was on yours.

02:21:20.080 | - We did both, but this is when you're referring

02:21:21.420 | to when she was on mine.

02:21:22.260 | - She was on, yeah, right.

02:21:23.620 | And you went right for the--

02:21:26.940 | - So I'll tell you what it was, you don't have to paraphrase.

02:21:29.740 | So I opened up, I say, she's Jordan Peterson's dad,

02:21:32.580 | and as many people know, Jordan's--

02:21:33.900 | - Daughter, yeah.

02:21:34.740 | - Sorry, he's her dad, yeah.

02:21:36.260 | She's had a long issue with substance addiction.

02:21:39.920 | And I said to her, you're most famous

02:21:42.820 | for being Jordan Peterson's daughter.

02:21:45.400 | Many people, he's changed so many lives around the world,

02:21:48.180 | and he's been such an enormous influence to me personally

02:21:51.740 | that I've started taking benzodiazepines recreationally.

02:21:54.780 | And she's like, oh my God, Michael is so horrible.

02:21:58.580 | - Yeah, 'cause you pulled me in with this,

02:22:01.180 | 'cause you're talking, I mean, you know,

02:22:02.940 | 'cause he's going through a rough time now,

02:22:04.860 | she's going through, just everything was just,

02:22:07.420 | you pulled me in emotionally.

02:22:08.940 | I was like, this is gonna be the sweet,

02:22:11.620 | Mike is gonna be just this wonderful, and then just bam.

02:22:16.140 | So that was props to you on that.

02:22:21.140 | Whatever that is, that is an art form.

02:22:25.140 | When done well, it can be taken too far.

02:22:27.860 | My criticism is that that feels too good for some people.

02:22:32.860 | - What do you mean?

02:22:34.580 | Oh, they're too happy being irreverent

02:22:36.260 | to show that they don't care about anything?

02:22:37.380 | That's another form of cynicism though.

02:22:38.980 | - Right, 'cause you think it's possible to be a troll

02:22:42.500 | and still live life to its highest ideal in the Camus sense?

02:22:47.500 | - I try, that's kind of my ideal.

02:22:51.140 | - I believe it's not.

02:22:54.300 | It becomes a drug.

02:22:55.900 | I feel like that takes you,

02:22:57.140 | like I think love ultimately is the way to experience

02:23:01.900 | like every moment of every day.

02:23:04.300 | - You don't think that was an expression of,

02:23:06.860 | I honestly think, let's split hairs here

02:23:09.740 | 'cause I think there's something of use here.

02:23:12.100 | I do think that me being able to make her laugh

02:23:17.100 | about this year of hell she was in

02:23:21.300 | does create an element of love

02:23:23.420 | and connection between me and her.

02:23:25.180 | - Yeah, but--

02:23:26.020 | - I know she would say that.

02:23:28.140 | - Yes, it wasn't that.

02:23:30.860 | It was what you said in combination

02:23:33.660 | with the sweetness everywhere else, the kindness.

02:23:37.500 | It's a very subtle thing,

02:23:39.020 | but it's like some of the deepest connections

02:23:42.020 | we have with others is when we mock them lovingly.

02:23:46.060 | - Yes, correct.

02:23:46.980 | - But there is stuff, there's kindness around that.

02:23:52.260 | Not in words, but in like subtle things.

02:23:55.220 | - 'Cause it creates an air of being familial.

02:23:58.780 | Like we're through this together.

02:24:00.860 | - Yeah, that's missing.

02:24:02.540 | That's very difficult to do on the internet.

02:24:04.420 | - I agree with you.

02:24:05.780 | I agree with you.

02:24:06.620 | - That's why my general approach on the internet

02:24:10.740 | is to be more like simple, less witty,

02:24:15.300 | and more like dumbly loving.

02:24:19.380 | - But that's not your core competency, being witty.

02:24:22.900 | (laughs)

02:24:24.820 | - Me? - Yeah.

02:24:25.900 | - I can be witty.

02:24:27.860 | - You can be, but I'm saying that's not your core competency.

02:24:29.780 | I'm not saying you're bad at it,

02:24:30.900 | but I'm saying that's not where you go organically,

02:24:33.760 | especially with strangers.

02:24:36.020 | - I just feel like nobody's core competence on the internet

02:24:40.260 | is, I guess, if you want to bring love to the world,

02:24:43.340 | nobody's core competence is,

02:24:45.260 | given the current platforms,

02:24:47.860 | nobody's core competence is wit.

02:24:50.420 | It's very difficult to be witty.

02:24:51.660 | - Yeah. - On the internet

02:24:53.460 | while still communicating kindness.

02:24:55.660 | - I'll give you another example.

02:24:57.900 | - In the same way that you can in physical space.

02:24:59.540 | - I'll give you another example.

02:25:00.420 | Someone came at me and they were like,

02:25:03.940 | they gave me a donation, people do this all the time,

02:25:06.220 | and they go, "Oh, I started reading your books

02:25:09.780 | "'cause of my wife, and now we watch your shows together.

02:25:14.040 | "Keep up the good work."

02:25:15.020 | And I go, "What does her boyfriend think?"

02:25:17.460 | So that is an example of wit and love

02:25:20.500 | because that person feels seen.

02:25:23.060 | I'm acknowledging them.

02:25:24.340 | I'm also making a joke at their expense.

02:25:25.940 | We know it's a joke.

02:25:27.300 | So I think-- - Good point, good point.

02:25:29.300 | - Language is often used in non-literal ways

02:25:32.000 | to cue emotional and connectivity.

02:25:34.140 | - It's difficult. - It's very difficult.

02:25:36.180 | - What you've done is difficult to accomplish,

02:25:38.900 | but you've done it well.

02:25:39.740 | I mean, you do, like you've been doing these live streams,

02:25:43.360 | which are nice that people give you a bunch of money

02:25:45.220 | and donations and stuff,

02:25:46.580 | and then you'll often make fun of certain aspects

02:25:49.900 | of their questions and so on, but it's always long.

02:25:52.220 | - That's not from love.

02:25:53.060 | That is genuine annoyance

02:25:53.900 | 'cause they ask me some really dumb questions.

02:25:54.720 | - But there's still underlying, it's not even,

02:25:57.900 | like there's a kind person under that

02:26:00.460 | that's being communicated.

02:26:02.320 | That's interesting,

02:26:03.160 | but I don't know if I get that from your Twitter.

02:26:05.700 | I know I get that from the video.

02:26:07.580 | Something about the face, something about like--

02:26:09.620 | - Yeah, of course, it's much harder.

02:26:10.900 | The more data, the more easy it is

02:26:13.500 | to convey emotion and subtlety, absolutely.

02:26:15.660 | If you only have literally black and white letters,

02:26:17.820 | it's gonna be, or whatever, white and black,

02:26:19.540 | if you have night mode, it's gonna be a very different,

02:26:21.740 | it's much more limited information.

02:26:23.700 | - Yeah, but this is the fundamental thing is like--

02:26:26.700 | - Here's another example.

02:26:28.620 | Like if they had access to my face,

02:26:30.220 | like a lot of times some people don't know who I am

02:26:32.260 | and they come at me, call me a Nazi anti-Semite, right?

02:26:34.860 | And I start talking about the Jews

02:26:36.260 | and just how terrible the Jews are.

02:26:37.860 | Now, all my audience knows I'm Jewish,

02:26:39.380 | that I went to Yeshiva,

02:26:40.220 | so they're sitting there laughing

02:26:41.500 | 'cause this person's making ass of themselves.

02:26:43.460 | That person has no idea, but if there was video,

02:26:46.700 | then they would be like, okay, wait a minute,

02:26:48.180 | something's off.

02:26:49.020 | Something's up.

02:26:49.900 | I don't know.

02:26:51.860 | I think it's entertaining, I think it's fun,

02:26:54.660 | but I just, I don't think it's scalable.

02:26:57.420 | And ultimately, I'm trying to figure out

02:27:00.260 | this whole trolling thing

02:27:01.980 | 'cause I think it's really destructive.

02:27:04.780 | I've been, the outrage mob, the outrage mobs,

02:27:08.900 | just the dynamics of Twitter has been really bothering me.

02:27:12.620 | - Okay.

02:27:13.460 | - And I've been trying to figure out

02:27:15.100 | if we can try to build an alternative to Twitter perhaps

02:27:19.820 | or try to encourage Twitter to be better,

02:27:22.140 | how to have nuanced, healthy conversations.

02:27:26.060 | The reason I talk about love isn't just for love's sake,

02:27:28.860 | it's just a good base

02:27:30.100 | from which to have difficult conversations.

02:27:33.140 | That's a good starting point

02:27:34.540 | because if you start, I would argue

02:27:37.420 | that the kind of conversation you have on Twitter is fun,

02:27:42.420 | but it might not be a good starting point

02:27:44.660 | for a difficult, nuanced conversation.

02:27:46.660 | - Well, I'm not interested

02:27:47.860 | in having those conversations with most people.

02:27:49.820 | - No, I know, but--

02:27:50.900 | - So I agree with you.

02:27:52.220 | Your point is valid.

02:27:53.100 | - Yes, but like I was saying,

02:27:54.340 | so if we were trying to have a difficult, nuanced conversation

02:27:58.980 | about, say, race in America or policing,

02:28:02.340 | is there racism, institutional racism of policing?

02:28:06.380 | Okay, there's the only conversations

02:28:09.420 | that have been nuanced about it

02:28:11.340 | that I've heard is in the podcasting medium.

02:28:13.700 | - I agree with you.

02:28:14.540 | - There's the magic of podcasting, which is great,

02:28:17.020 | but that's, the downside of podcasting

02:28:21.180 | is it's a very small number of people.

02:28:24.260 | Even if it's in the thousands, it's still small.

02:28:27.740 | And then there's millions of people on social media

02:28:30.380 | and they're not having nuanced conversation at all.

02:28:32.940 | - They're not capable of it.

02:28:34.060 | That's the difference in your mind.

02:28:35.740 | - I believe they are.

02:28:36.780 | So that's the--

02:28:37.620 | - There's no data that shows this.

02:28:38.440 | - And then both of us aren't being, not scientific.

02:28:41.580 | You don't have data to support your world either.

02:28:43.420 | - We're making the claims.

02:28:44.720 | - Well, you are too.

02:28:46.700 | - No, I'm not.

02:28:47.520 | If I'm looking at an object, the claim that has a mind.

02:28:51.060 | - Well, no, what, no, your claim is

02:28:55.900 | that people are fundamentally stupid.

02:28:58.180 | - Aren't you a martial artist?

02:28:59.740 | - Yes.

02:29:00.980 | - How's it feel?

02:29:02.160 | I did judo on you.

02:29:04.620 | - But you really don't think people are deep down

02:29:10.140 | like capable of being intelligent.

02:29:13.500 | - No, not at all.

02:29:14.900 | Not deep down, not surface.

02:29:16.020 | I'm not joking.

02:29:16.860 | I'm not being tongue in cheek.

02:29:18.020 | I'm not being cynical.

02:29:18.900 | I do not at all, at all think they have this capacity.

02:29:22.340 | - I'm gonna think, 'cause you're being so clear about it.

02:29:24.620 | You're not even, I'm gonna have to think about that.

02:29:28.260 | - Here's evidence for my position, not proof.

02:29:31.420 | And this is of course data that is of little use,

02:29:33.780 | but it's of interest.

02:29:35.020 | A lot of times when you have an audience as big as mine

02:29:37.260 | and people come at you,

02:29:38.800 | not only will people say the same thing, the same concept,

02:29:42.100 | they'll say the same concept in the same way.

02:29:44.420 | That is not a mind.

02:29:45.620 | - Yeah, that's surface evidence.

02:29:49.300 | You're saying this iceberg looks like this from the surface.

02:29:52.620 | I'm saying there's an iceberg there that if challenged

02:29:56.620 | can rise to the occasion of deep thinking.

02:30:03.220 | And you're saying, nope.

02:30:04.860 | - Nope, it's just frozen water.

02:30:08.660 | (speaking in foreign language)

02:30:09.500 | - Isn't that the Russian expression?

02:30:11.640 | - That's ice cream.

02:30:12.880 | - No, not (speaking in foreign language)

02:30:14.640 | Doesn't it mean like no one's there?

02:30:17.400 | - Actually, I don't know.

02:30:18.240 | - Yeah, it means like, yeah.

02:30:19.840 | Yeah, it's like thought.

02:30:20.920 | It means (speaking in foreign language)

02:30:25.520 | - Okay, well, so you're challenging me

02:30:28.400 | to be a little bit more rigorous.

02:30:30.000 | I think I'll try to prove--

02:30:30.840 | - I'm not challenging you anything.

02:30:31.960 | I'm just saying--

02:30:32.780 | - No, not challenging me,

02:30:33.620 | but I'm challenging myself based on what you're saying

02:30:35.760 | because I'd like to prove you wrong.

02:30:37.920 | And find actual data to show you wrong.

02:30:42.420 | And I think I can, but I would need to get that data.

02:30:46.440 | - That's funny you said, I think I can

02:30:47.760 | when they were working on my biography, "Ego and Hubris",

02:30:50.740 | the title I had suggested was

02:30:52.240 | "The Little Engine That Could But Shouldn't".

02:30:54.440 | (both laughing)

02:30:56.240 | - They didn't like it.

02:30:57.080 | - I think that's a great title.

02:30:58.600 | - That's pretty good, yeah.

02:31:00.200 | Speaking of biographies, I mean,

02:31:02.040 | I read your book or listened to your book.

02:31:04.120 | Listened to, there's an audio book from you, right?

02:31:05.960 | - Yeah, I did the audio, yeah.

02:31:07.000 | - Yeah, you read it?

02:31:08.960 | - My Golas, yes.

02:31:10.200 | - Okay, so this was--

02:31:12.400 | - I didn't do your own Brooks voice in the book.

02:31:14.160 | I did all the different voices 'cause he has lisp

02:31:15.840 | and I didn't wanna sound like I was making fun of him.

02:31:18.100 | - Yeah, I don't remember you reading it,

02:31:21.580 | but I was really enjoyed it.

02:31:23.160 | - I promise you.

02:31:24.000 | - No, okay, it was good.

02:31:24.840 | It was like a year, year and a half ago.

02:31:26.360 | - This I can prove.

02:31:27.440 | (both laughing)

02:31:30.780 | - Well, let me at a high level,

02:31:32.260 | see if you can pull this off.

02:31:33.680 | If I ask you, what's the book you write about?

02:31:38.680 | - It's about a group of people

02:31:42.760 | who are united solely by their opposition to progressivism,

02:31:46.720 | who have little else in common,

02:31:49.080 | but who are all frequently caricatured and dismissed

02:31:53.400 | by the larger establishment media.

02:31:56.380 | - But you give this kind of story of how it came to be.

02:32:00.240 | - Sure.

02:32:01.080 | - And to me, like we're talking about trolls,

02:32:03.520 | but the internet side of things is quite interesting.

02:32:06.840 | So first of all, how does alt-right connect?

02:32:10.000 | - So the alt-right is the subset of the new right,

02:32:13.920 | which feels that race, not racism,

02:32:16.760 | is the most or one of the most important

02:32:19.600 | sociopolitical issues.

02:32:21.140 | - Are any of those folks like part of the mainstream

02:32:27.160 | or worth paying attention to?

02:32:29.200 | - Not in part of the mainstream, the alt-right?

02:32:31.160 | - Yeah.

02:32:32.000 | - I would not say in any position

02:32:32.820 | they would be part of the mainstream.

02:32:33.800 | - They would not be part of that.

02:32:34.960 | - No, they would not.

02:32:36.160 | I don't know that any of them,

02:32:38.640 | well, worth is not a position,

02:32:40.000 | I'm not in a position to say worth.

02:32:41.840 | I would say that it is of use

02:32:45.360 | to be familiar with their arguments

02:32:48.200 | because to dismiss any school of thought,

02:32:51.320 | especially one that has historically gained leverage,

02:32:54.680 | especially one that has historically gained leverage

02:32:57.040 | in very dark ways, especially in America,

02:32:59.520 | in Europe and other places,

02:33:01.200 | just to say, "Oh, they're racist,

02:33:03.000 | "I don't need to think about them,"

02:33:04.320 | it doesn't behoove you.

02:33:07.200 | - So what lessons do we draw from the 4chan side of things,

02:33:12.200 | like the internet side of the movement?

02:33:16.160 | - Tits or get the fuck out.

02:33:17.500 | - Can you define every single word in that sentence?

02:33:21.120 | - Tits or breasts or get the fuck out.

02:33:24.040 | That's from 4chan.

02:33:25.480 | - Okay, what's it mean?

02:33:28.120 | - Oh, sometimes a woman will appear on 4chan

02:33:29.920 | and it'll just reply, "Tits or get the fuck out."

02:33:32.320 | - I'm trying to understand what the,

02:33:35.640 | oh, oh, that's the way.

02:33:37.240 | I just, very slow.

02:33:44.520 | So that's, okay, so that's very disrespectful

02:33:47.680 | towards female members of the community.

02:33:52.520 | I don't understand.

02:33:53.360 | So there's rules to this community

02:33:55.080 | and one of them is we're not very good with women.

02:33:58.760 | Is that, that's one of the rules?

02:34:00.240 | - It's more of a principle than a rule.

02:34:02.280 | - It's a principle?

02:34:04.080 | We're not going to ever get laid.

02:34:06.280 | That's fundamental principle.

02:34:07.880 | Is there other-- - But we are gonna get pics.

02:34:10.240 | - Pics. - Sometimes.

02:34:11.400 | - Sometimes on the internet. - Sometimes they GTFO.

02:34:15.160 | - Okay, so is there other actual principles of,

02:34:19.120 | so like, from my maybe naive perspective

02:34:24.360 | is they have like the darkest aspects of trolling,

02:34:26.660 | which is like take nothing serious,

02:34:28.800 | make a game out of everything true.

02:34:30.520 | - That's not 4chan per se.

02:34:31.880 | One of the things that you will learn in 4chan,

02:34:34.200 | which I think is very healthy,

02:34:35.880 | is if you have an idiosyncratic or unique worldview

02:34:39.480 | or focus on an aspect of history or culture,

02:34:42.020 | you'll be able to find like-minded people

02:34:43.760 | who you will engage with you and discuss it

02:34:45.400 | without being preemptively dismissive.

02:34:48.120 | - That's an ideal that they--

02:34:51.000 | - Well, it's not ideal.

02:34:51.840 | It's something that happens a lot.

02:34:52.840 | Now, 4chan's not really like,

02:34:54.080 | Paul is their board with politics,

02:34:56.480 | but they will get into some,

02:34:59.360 | the people there are much more erudite than you'd think.

02:35:01.880 | - So they do take,

02:35:03.100 | my perception was they take nothing seriously.

02:35:05.260 | So there's things that they take seriously,

02:35:07.360 | like discussing ideas.

02:35:08.640 | - I'll give you one example.

02:35:09.640 | There was a video someone posted of a girl

02:35:11.840 | who put kittens in a bag and threw it in a river,

02:35:14.420 | and they found out where she was within a day

02:35:16.040 | and got her arrested.

02:35:17.500 | So yeah, they do take some things very seriously.

02:35:19.940 | - Okay, but that's like an extreme.

02:35:23.280 | I mean, that's good.

02:35:25.080 | First of all, that's heartwarming

02:35:26.200 | that they wouldn't somehow turn that into a thing.

02:35:29.440 | That feels like more of a, what is it?

02:35:31.800 | What's the other one?

02:35:32.620 | 8chan?

02:35:33.460 | - 8chan's twice as good as 4chan, yeah.

02:35:36.040 | That's their slogan.

02:35:37.000 | - But it feels like they're the kind of community

02:35:40.520 | that would take that kitten situation and make a mockery.

02:35:45.120 | - Yeah, they're a darker than 4chan, yeah.

02:35:47.520 | And don't even, I'm not allowed to talk about 16chan.

02:35:50.200 | - I'm already overwhelmed, clearly, by 4chan lingo.

02:35:56.120 | I have, I literally wrote down in my notes,

02:35:58.940 | like, in doing research for this conversation,

02:36:04.440 | I learned the word pleb,

02:36:05.940 | and I wanted to ask you what does pleb mean?

02:36:09.440 | - You know what pleb means?

02:36:10.480 | - No.

02:36:11.320 | - I don't, what do you--

02:36:13.520 | - I saw, I mean, actually, no, I don't.

02:36:16.280 | - You know what a pleb is?

02:36:17.720 | - I just, I don't know what a pleb is.

02:36:20.100 | - Like a plebiscite, or a plebeian.

02:36:22.320 | - Okay, but does it mean something more sophisticated?

02:36:26.720 | - No, it's a very unsophisticated mechanism

02:36:29.040 | of being dismissive.

02:36:30.680 | - Of, like, the regular people?

02:36:32.720 | - Yeah, or someone who comes at me on Twitter.

02:36:35.280 | - Okay, all right, so back to the 4chan alt-right.

02:36:39.400 | Wasn't the--

02:36:40.400 | - Those are very different concepts, don't conflate them.

02:36:43.520 | - But which internet culture was the alt-right born out of?

02:36:48.520 | - Well, alt-right was more born of blogs,

02:36:51.160 | and people had different blogs,

02:36:52.640 | and they were posting what they called, like,

02:36:54.080 | racial realism, scientific, which is scientific racism,

02:36:56.560 | so-called, and, you know, breaking down issues

02:36:59.080 | from a racialist perspective.

02:37:00.400 | So that wasn't, 4chan is much more dynamic.

02:37:03.720 | It's a message board, it's very fluid.

02:37:06.560 | So it doesn't lend itself to these kind of

02:37:08.640 | in-depth analysis of ideas or history.

02:37:11.520 | - But it spreads them, like it--

02:37:13.560 | - It spreads them as memes, yeah, and it, you know, but--

02:37:16.360 | - But it's not an essential mechanism

02:37:18.480 | of the alt-right, historically?

02:37:20.840 | - No, no, no, no, no, no.

02:37:22.320 | So it was mostly about blogs.

02:37:24.160 | Okay, so what do you make of the psychology

02:37:28.040 | of this kind of worldview?

02:37:29.640 | - When you have, and this goes to your conspiracy theory

02:37:32.600 | subject earlier, when you have a little bit of knowledge

02:37:35.200 | about something, about history, that no one's talking about,

02:37:39.020 | and there's only one group that is talking about it,

02:37:42.160 | and you have no alternative answers,

02:37:45.360 | you're going to be drawn to that group.

02:37:47.300 | So because issues about race, antisemitism, homophobia

02:37:51.600 | are so taboo in our culture,

02:37:53.880 | understandably, there's good reasons.

02:37:55.320 | If you start putting things like,

02:37:56.560 | how old should you be to have sex with kids

02:37:58.680 | and just have regular conversations,

02:38:00.080 | eventually some people are gonna start taking

02:38:01.520 | some positions you don't like,

02:38:02.520 | so some things have to be sanctified to some extent.

02:38:04.600 | They're the only ones talking about it.

02:38:06.440 | You're gonna be drawn to that subculture.

02:38:09.260 | - And where does the alt-right stand now?

02:38:13.080 | I mean, I hear that term used--

02:38:15.400 | - So the term has been weaponized by the corporate press

02:38:18.320 | for people that they want to read out of society.

02:38:22.440 | So it's used both on individual levels,

02:38:24.320 | like people like Gavin McIngus, Milo Yiannopoulos,

02:38:27.360 | some others, I mean, I think they refer to Trump as alt-right

02:38:30.840 | and it's become a slur, just like incel or bot,

02:38:36.620 | that has become largely removed from its original meaning.

02:38:39.720 | - Do you have a sense that there's still a movement

02:38:41.840 | that's alt-right, or like--

02:38:43.000 | - Yeah, they call themselves now, okay,

02:38:44.760 | so there's something called the dissident right,

02:38:47.460 | and they say we're completely not like the alt-right

02:38:49.720 | because the alt-right's A, B, and C, and we're B, C, D.

02:38:53.200 | There's a huge overlap, it's very much the same people.

02:38:56.080 | - Is there intellectuals that still represent

02:38:59.200 | some aspect of the movement?

02:39:01.360 | - I mean, sure-- - Are you tracking this?

02:39:03.280 | - Not that much anymore.

02:39:05.200 | I think they've, I don't find it particularly as,

02:39:09.020 | now that the book's done,

02:39:12.200 | I'm looking more into history for my next book.

02:39:15.840 | - You mentioned communism?

02:39:16.920 | - I'm gonna talk a lot about the Cold War,

02:39:19.600 | so this kind of stuff has largely fallen away

02:39:22.000 | from my radar to some extent.

02:39:23.960 | And they've also been, it's been a very effective movement

02:39:27.040 | to get them marginalized and silenced.

02:39:29.680 | - So they're not as deep of a concern

02:39:32.920 | in terms of concern or not, just their impact on society.

02:39:36.040 | - Yes, it's much lessened, yeah.

02:39:38.400 | - So as a troll on Twitter, in the best sense of the word,

02:39:42.200 | what do you make of cancel culture?

02:39:45.920 | - I think it's Maoism.

02:39:47.440 | I mean, corporate America has done a far better job

02:39:50.200 | of implementing Maoism than the Communist Party ever could.

02:39:52.680 | You had this meeting not that long ago

02:39:54.360 | from I think it was Northwestern University Law School

02:39:56.560 | where everyone on the call got up

02:39:57.940 | and said that they were racist.

02:39:59.440 | I mean, this is something that legally

02:40:01.240 | you should be very averse to saying, even if it were true.

02:40:04.560 | And it's this kind of concept of getting up

02:40:06.560 | and confessing your sins before the collective

02:40:08.840 | is something completely--

02:40:10.480 | - Oh, sorry, they admitted this of themselves?

02:40:14.200 | - Yeah, they were like, 'cause they're saying

02:40:15.640 | because they're white, they're inherently racist.

02:40:17.040 | So my name's John, I'm a racist.

02:40:18.600 | My name's this, I'm a racist.

02:40:20.400 | You hear it and you're like, okay, this is Looney Tunes.

02:40:22.760 | - So you're saying that, wow, that's so much,

02:40:25.280 | you took a step further.

02:40:26.480 | So you're saying there's like a deep underlying force,

02:40:30.120 | in a sense, cancel culture.

02:40:31.760 | It's not just some kind of mob symptom.

02:40:33.600 | - No, it's not a mob at all.

02:40:35.120 | - It's a--

02:40:36.920 | - It's a systemic organized movement

02:40:39.880 | being used for very nefarious purposes

02:40:42.360 | and to dominate an entire nation.

02:40:45.200 | - How do we fight it?

02:40:46.160 | 'Cause I sense it inside.

02:40:47.760 | I used to defend academia more because,

02:40:53.760 | I still do to some extent.

02:40:58.520 | It's a nuanced discussion because folks like Jordan Peterson

02:41:03.520 | and a lot of people that kind of attack academia,

02:41:06.800 | they refer, they really are talking about gender studies

02:41:10.240 | in certain departments.

02:41:11.320 | And me from MIT, it's the University of Science

02:41:15.120 | and Engineering and the faculty there

02:41:19.120 | really don't think about these issues

02:41:22.600 | or haven't traditionally thought about it.

02:41:24.240 | It's beginning to even infiltrate there.

02:41:26.360 | It's starting to infiltrate engineering and sciences

02:41:31.240 | outside of biology.

02:41:33.160 | Let's put biology with the gender studies.

02:41:35.920 | I'm talking about sciences that really don't have anything

02:41:37.960 | to do with gender.

02:41:38.900 | It's starting to infiltrate.

02:41:43.160 | It worries me.

02:41:44.680 | I don't know exactly why.

02:41:47.080 | I don't know exactly what the negative effect there would be

02:41:51.560 | except it feels like it's anti-intellectual.

02:41:55.800 | - Oh yes, of course.

02:41:57.360 | - And I'm not sure what to,

02:41:59.000 | 'cause on the surface,

02:42:02.240 | it feels like a path towards progress at first

02:42:05.880 | when I'm zoomed out, just squinting my eyes,

02:42:11.680 | not even in detail looking at things.

02:42:13.960 | But when I actually join the conversation to listen in,

02:42:17.260 | the conversation on quote unquote diversity,

02:42:20.300 | it quickly makes me realize that there's no interest

02:42:25.300 | in making a better world.

02:42:29.840 | - No, no, it's about domination.

02:42:31.320 | - It's about getting, yeah.

02:42:33.460 | - It's a way for, if you are a lowest status white person,

02:42:37.740 | using anti-racism is the only mechanism you will have

02:42:41.040 | to feel superior to another human being.

02:42:43.360 | So it's very useful for them.

02:42:44.820 | In terms of fighting it,

02:42:48.120 | one of my suggestions has been

02:42:49.760 | to seize all university endowments,

02:42:51.960 | which are the crystallization of privilege,

02:42:54.080 | and distribute that money as reparations.

02:42:56.640 | So it'd be very effective

02:42:57.760 | by turning two populations against each other

02:42:59.920 | and strongly diminishing

02:43:01.320 | the university's intellectual hegemony.

02:43:04.220 | The universities are absolutely

02:43:06.160 | the real villains in the picture.

02:43:07.960 | Thankfully, they're also the least prepared

02:43:10.160 | to be aggressed upon.

02:43:12.120 | And after the government and the corporate press,

02:43:15.400 | they are the last leg of the stool,

02:43:17.280 | and they don't know what's coming,

02:43:18.440 | and it's gonna get ugly, and I cannot wait.

02:43:21.360 | - So this is where you and I disagree.

02:43:23.080 | One, we disagree in a sense

02:43:25.720 | that you want to dismantle broken institutions.

02:43:30.720 | - I don't think they're broken.

02:43:31.600 | I think they're working by design.

02:43:33.280 | I think for over 100 years,

02:43:34.920 | they have been talking about bringing

02:43:36.800 | the next generation of American leaders,

02:43:38.660 | which is code for promulgating an ideology

02:43:42.320 | based on egalitarian principles and world domination.

02:43:46.700 | - Let me try to express my lived experience.

02:43:50.160 | - Okay, sure.

02:43:51.000 | - My experience at MIT is that

02:43:55.840 | there's a bunch of administrators

02:43:58.200 | that are the bureaucracy that,

02:44:00.820 | I can say, this is the nice thing

02:44:03.960 | about having a podcast, I don't give a damn,

02:44:06.080 | is they're pretty useless.

02:44:07.560 | In fact, they get in the way.

02:44:09.360 | But there's faculty, there's professors

02:44:12.480 | that are incredible.

02:44:15.120 | They're incredible human beings

02:44:16.560 | that all they do all day, they're too busy,

02:44:20.600 | but for the most part, what they do all day

02:44:23.660 | is just continually pursue different little trajectories

02:44:28.560 | of curiosities in the various avenues of science

02:44:31.720 | that they work on.

02:44:33.080 | And as a side effect of that,

02:44:36.480 | they mentor a group of students,

02:44:39.280 | sometimes a large group of students,

02:44:40.720 | and also teach courses.

02:44:42.320 | And they're constantly sharing their passion with others.

02:44:45.920 | And my experience is it's just a bunch of people

02:44:49.240 | who are curious about engineering and math and science,

02:44:53.380 | chemistry, artificial intelligence, computer science,

02:44:55.720 | what I'm most familiar with.

02:44:57.720 | And there's never this feeling of MIT being broken somehow,

02:45:02.480 | like this kind of feeling,

02:45:04.680 | like if I talk to you just now, or like Eric Weinstein,

02:45:08.280 | there's a feeling like stuff is on fire.

02:45:11.280 | Right, there's something deeply broken.

02:45:13.880 | But when I'm in the system,

02:45:16.200 | especially before the COVID, before this kind of tension,

02:45:20.920 | everything was great.

02:45:22.640 | There was no discussion of even diversity,

02:45:25.320 | all that kind of stuff, the toxic stuff

02:45:28.040 | that we might be talking about right now,

02:45:30.000 | none of that was happening.

02:45:30.920 | It was a bunch of people just in love

02:45:32.600 | with cool ideas, exploring ideas,

02:45:35.920 | being curious and learning and all that kind of stuff.

02:45:38.520 | So I don't, my sense of academia was this is the place

02:45:43.360 | where kids in their 20s, 30s, and 40s

02:45:46.320 | can continue the playground of science and having fun.

02:45:50.680 | It's, if you destroy academia,

02:45:52.920 | if you destroy universities,

02:45:54.080 | like you're suggesting kind of lessening their power,

02:45:58.080 | you take away the playground from these kids to play.

02:46:01.840 | - It's gonna be hard for you to tell me

02:46:03.480 | that I'm anti-playground.

02:46:05.000 | - Yeah, well, I guess I'm saying you're anti

02:46:07.080 | certain kinds of playgrounds, which is--

02:46:08.960 | - Yeah, the ones that have the broken glass on the floor.

02:46:10.800 | Yeah, I am against those kinds of playgrounds.

02:46:13.100 | - No, you're--

02:46:16.160 | - You're-- - Yes.

02:46:18.280 | - Nope, see-- - Yes.

02:46:19.120 | - Yeah. - That you say,

02:46:20.520 | that you listen.

02:46:21.360 | - No, you wait, yeah.

02:46:23.200 | I would say you're being the watchful mother

02:46:26.840 | who the one kid who hurt themselves in the glass--

02:46:29.840 | - One kid, it's an entire generation,

02:46:30.960 | it's generation after generation.

02:46:32.440 | I'm not a watchful mother,

02:46:33.280 | I'm the guy with the flamethrower.

02:46:34.640 | - No, I understand that.

02:46:36.880 | But you're using the one kid who was always kind of weird,

02:46:42.480 | AKA gender studies department,

02:46:45.000 | that hurt themselves in the glass,

02:46:47.340 | as opposed to the people who are obviously having fun

02:46:50.440 | in the playground and not playing by the glass,

02:46:54.720 | the broken glass, and they're just,

02:46:56.820 | I mean, to me, some of the best innovations in science

02:47:00.160 | happen in universities.

02:47:02.080 | - Okay. - You can't forget

02:47:04.000 | that universities don't have this liberal,

02:47:07.680 | like politics literally,

02:47:09.800 | every conversation until this year,

02:47:14.160 | until this year, there's something happening,

02:47:16.520 | but every conversation I've ever had

02:47:18.800 | had nothing to do with politics.

02:47:20.280 | We never, Trump never came up,

02:47:22.240 | none of that ever come up, nothing.

02:47:24.440 | Like all this kind of idea that there's liberal,

02:47:26.880 | all that, that's in the humanities.

02:47:29.840 | - Yeah, but do you think MIT,

02:47:31.520 | Massachusetts Institute of Technology,

02:47:33.480 | might be a little bit of an outlier?

02:47:34.760 | - Yeah, there probably is, yeah.

02:47:36.600 | But I honestly don't think,

02:47:40.080 | when people criticize academia,

02:47:41.480 | they're looking at, they're in fact also picking outliers,

02:47:46.480 | which is they're picking some of the, quote unquote,

02:47:49.480 | strongest gender studies departments.

02:47:51.280 | - This is nonsensical.

02:47:52.120 | When I was at Bucknell, I was a college student,

02:47:55.040 | we had to take, we had a bunch of electives,

02:47:57.600 | and I wanted to take a class

02:47:58.600 | on individual, American individualism.

02:48:01.160 | One of the texts of the five that we had to read

02:48:04.440 | was "Birth of a Nation," the movie about the Klan.

02:48:07.440 | So there's no department where these people

02:48:12.720 | are not thoroughgoing, hardcore ideologues.

02:48:17.400 | This is not a gender-- - That's the humanities,

02:48:18.640 | that's the humanities.

02:48:19.480 | - Fine, all the humanities, not just gender studies.

02:48:21.920 | - Okay, fine, I can give you--

02:48:23.360 | - History, English.

02:48:25.080 | - Yes. - All of them.

02:48:26.200 | Every university, as you know,

02:48:28.280 | has it mandatory in their curriculum,

02:48:31.640 | they have to take a bunch of these propaganda classes.

02:48:34.520 | - I look forward to you two comments

02:48:37.640 | because you're being more eloquent

02:48:39.720 | and you're speaking to the thing

02:48:40.960 | that a lot of people agree with,

02:48:42.400 | and I'm being my usual slow self,

02:48:44.240 | and people are going to say not very nice things about me.

02:48:47.040 | - Don't say anything that nice about Lex, please.

02:48:50.120 | - Let me try to just-- - Just shoot up a school.

02:48:53.000 | That would be preferable.

02:48:54.400 | - There he goes again.

02:48:55.760 | - Only the teachers.

02:48:56.600 | - The darkest possible place.

02:48:58.280 | - That's Sunshine Baby Schools,

02:48:59.720 | that's where everyone goes to be happy, playgrounds.

02:49:01.640 | - There he goes, dark ear.

02:49:03.400 | Just dives right in, just go dark,

02:49:07.480 | and then just comes back up to the surface.

02:49:09.680 | - I don't have to feel this way anymore.

02:49:13.200 | Just one day and I'll feel it.

02:49:15.620 | - You're probably a figment of my imagination,

02:49:19.920 | I'm not even having this broadcast.

02:49:21.280 | - Well, after 18 Red Bulls,

02:49:22.600 | I'm surprised you could see anything.

02:49:24.560 | - This is like Fight Club,

02:49:25.600 | Red Bull gives you delirium.

02:49:27.000 | I got into it with Ed Norton yesterday on Twitter.

02:49:32.360 | - Oh, really?

02:49:33.200 | - Yeah.

02:49:34.040 | - Is he like the rest of the celebrities?

02:49:35.920 | - Yeah, he's like, "Oh, this is an existential threat

02:49:38.000 | "to America, Trump's a fascist,

02:49:39.480 | "he's delegitimizing the Oval Office."

02:49:41.360 | I said, "What an odd endorsement of Trump."

02:49:44.240 | - Well, you should have went with Bat Pitt,

02:49:45.680 | he might have a different opinion.

02:49:47.000 | - That's true. - Fight Club reference.

02:49:48.560 | - Yeah.

02:49:50.000 | This conversation is over.

02:49:52.600 | - It's interesting, I'd like to draw a line

02:49:54.320 | between science and engineering,

02:49:56.000 | and science not including the biological aspect,

02:50:00.840 | the parts of biology that touch,

02:50:03.600 | and humanities and biology.

02:50:05.080 | I feel because humanities,

02:50:08.040 | if you just look at the percentage of universities,

02:50:10.680 | it's still a minority percentage.

02:50:13.480 | And I would actually draw a different,

02:50:16.240 | I think they serve very different purposes.

02:50:18.320 | - Sure.

02:50:19.140 | - And that's actually a broken part about universities,

02:50:22.320 | about why is some of the best research in the world

02:50:27.400 | done at universities?

02:50:28.440 | There might be a different,

02:50:31.320 | like MIT, it feels weird that a faculty--

02:50:34.520 | - Yeah, these are conceptually different things.

02:50:35.880 | Like we do research and we teach,

02:50:37.160 | why is this the same at Diver?

02:50:38.000 | - Yeah, it feels weird.

02:50:38.920 | But that's just, but I'm also,

02:50:40.840 | I'm coming to the defense of the engineers

02:50:44.680 | that never talk about, I'm not like,

02:50:46.880 | my mind isn't, I'm not deluded or something,

02:50:51.000 | where I'm not seeing the house on fire.

02:50:53.960 | I'm just saying, I am seeing the house

02:50:55.800 | 'cause I also lived in Harvard Square.

02:50:57.360 | I'm seeing Harvard.

02:50:58.720 | But--

02:50:59.560 | - Can you see the tanks coming?

02:51:00.800 | They're coming, Lex.

02:51:01.720 | That's gonna be so beautiful.

02:51:03.720 | It'll be like the American beauty, the plastic bag.

02:51:06.160 | I just won't be able to stop crying

02:51:07.320 | 'cause it'll be so beautiful.

02:51:08.200 | - Yeah. - The tanks.

02:51:09.040 | - I can already see it.

02:51:11.280 | But the engineering departments,

02:51:13.840 | where I believe that the Elon Musks of the world,

02:51:18.140 | that the innovation that will make a better world

02:51:22.080 | is happening, and let's not burn that down

02:51:25.240 | 'cause that has nothing to do with any,

02:51:27.320 | like they're all sitting quietly

02:51:29.360 | while the humanities

02:51:32.760 | and all these kind of diversity programs,

02:51:34.480 | they're not having any of these discussions.

02:51:36.720 | - Listen, my Soviet brother,

02:51:38.280 | you both know, we both know that ice water runs in our veins.

02:51:41.480 | So if you're calling for mercy, that is not how I'm wired,

02:51:44.440 | but I'm not closing the door.

02:51:46.520 | - Yeah, I'm actually realizing now,

02:51:48.540 | so for people listening to this,

02:51:50.660 | I'll probably pre-pen this and saying that

02:51:52.660 | I'm even slower than usual.

02:51:54.940 | I didn't sleep last night,

02:51:56.540 | but I feel I'm actually realizing just how slow I am

02:52:00.820 | and how much preparation I need to do.

02:52:03.100 | And if I would like to defend aspects of academia,

02:52:06.740 | I better come prepared.

02:52:08.500 | - I don't think you need to defend them.

02:52:09.680 | I think I'm granting you your premise freely.

02:52:12.620 | - No, you might be. - Okay.

02:52:14.540 | - I don't think the world is.

02:52:16.300 | - But actually, you just defeat your own argument

02:52:18.400 | 'cause it is not at all have to be the way

02:52:21.520 | that a phenomenal research institution like MIT,

02:52:24.560 | which no one disputes,

02:52:25.920 | has to also be an educational establishment.

02:52:28.720 | These two things are not at all necessarily interconnected.

02:52:32.120 | - But then you have to offer a way to separate them.

02:52:34.600 | - Correct.

02:52:35.440 | - But I'm not a big fan, everybody's different,

02:52:38.920 | but I'm not a fan of criticizing institutions

02:52:41.080 | without offering a way to change.

02:52:43.360 | And especially when I have ability to change,

02:52:46.060 | I'd like to offer a path.

02:52:49.720 | - What if they weren't students, they were all mentor?

02:52:52.320 | What's the opposite of a mentor?

02:52:55.960 | - Mentee.

02:52:56.800 | - Protege?

02:52:57.620 | What's the term when you work at a place?

02:53:00.720 | Interns, not an intern, it's not the one I'm thinking of.

02:53:02.880 | But anyway, basically they're working there

02:53:04.920 | instead of going to college there.

02:53:06.680 | - It's possible, but it's going against tradition.

02:53:08.840 | And so you have to build new institutions.

02:53:10.880 | - You can't have these engineers building new things.

02:53:13.600 | That's crazy.

02:53:15.120 | These research engineers,

02:53:16.460 | where they gonna be building things?

02:53:19.000 | - Well, one of the things, 'cause you're kind of a--

02:53:21.320 | - Apprentice, that's the word I was looking at.

02:53:22.640 | - Apprentice.

02:53:23.480 | - Which is ironic, we're talking about Trump

02:53:24.640 | and we couldn't think of the word apprentice.

02:53:26.800 | - Yeah, well done.

02:53:28.280 | We should both be fired.

02:53:29.120 | - You're fired.

02:53:29.960 | - Yeah, there you go.

02:53:30.920 | These Russian Jews, so quick with their wit.

02:53:34.520 | - Okay.

02:53:35.360 | - But the thing is you're a fan of freedom.

02:53:37.720 | - I am.

02:53:39.000 | - And there is intellectual freedom.

02:53:43.280 | This is what I was trying to articulate.

02:53:45.200 | I'm failing to articulate,

02:53:47.120 | but there truly is complete intellectual freedom

02:53:50.280 | within universities on topics of science and engineering.

02:53:55.280 | - I believe you.

02:53:57.200 | I agree with you.

02:53:58.040 | I don't think it's gonna take much persuasion,

02:53:59.560 | but I'll give you an example.

02:54:01.000 | I'm sure you know more details about this than I do.

02:54:05.560 | When that scientist engineered that probe

02:54:09.600 | to land on that comet,

02:54:11.760 | and the articles were written

02:54:13.000 | 'cause this Hawaiian shirt he was wearing

02:54:15.240 | had pinup girls on it,

02:54:16.360 | which I think is female student,

02:54:17.840 | sewed for him or something, or his ex-girlfriend.

02:54:19.840 | And he had to apologize.

02:54:21.600 | This is what Rand was talking about.

02:54:23.600 | That the great accomplishments of men

02:54:26.440 | have to say I'm sorry to the lowest,

02:54:29.280 | most despicable, disgusting people.

02:54:31.240 | - Yeah, I don't know.

02:54:34.240 | Let me bring this case up 'cause I think about this.

02:54:36.880 | This might not mean much to you,

02:54:39.040 | but it means a lot to a certain aspect

02:54:41.120 | of the computer science community.

02:54:42.560 | There's a guy named Richard Stallman.

02:54:44.760 | I don't know if you know who that is.

02:54:46.960 | He's the founder of the Free Software Foundation.

02:54:51.280 | He's a big Linux, he's one of the key people

02:54:53.360 | in the history of computer science,

02:54:54.920 | one of those open source people.

02:54:56.800 | But he is, I believe, he's one of the hardcore ones

02:55:00.280 | which is like all software should be free.

02:55:03.200 | Okay, so very interesting personality,

02:55:05.360 | very key person in the GNU,

02:55:07.240 | just like Linus Torvald, key person.

02:55:10.880 | But he also kind of speaks his mind.

02:55:13.520 | And on a certain chain of conversations at MIT

02:55:18.520 | that was leaked to the New York Times,

02:55:22.280 | then was published, led him to be fired

02:55:26.460 | or pushed out of MIT recently, maybe a year ago.

02:55:30.680 | And it always sat weird with me.

02:55:32.720 | So what happened is there's a few undergraduate students

02:55:38.840 | that called Marvin Minsky,

02:55:41.240 | not sure if you're familiar with who that is.

02:55:42.720 | - I've heard the name.

02:55:43.540 | - He's one of the seminal people in artificial intelligence.

02:55:46.440 | They said that they called him a rapist

02:55:49.960 | because he met with Jeffrey Epstein.

02:55:53.200 | And Jeffrey Epstein solicited,

02:55:56.880 | these are the best facts known to me that I'm aware of,

02:56:00.700 | that's what was stated on the chain,

02:56:02.840 | is he solicited a 17, but it might've been

02:56:05.360 | an 18-year-old girl to come up to Marvin Minsky

02:56:09.200 | and ask him if he wanted to have sex with her.

02:56:12.300 | So Jeffrey Epstein told the girl.

02:56:15.880 | She came up to Marvin Minsky,

02:56:18.200 | who was at that time is I think seven years old.

02:56:20.720 | And his wife was there too, Marvin Minsky's wife.

02:56:23.440 | And he said no, or like, you know, awkwardly saying.

02:56:27.120 | - No, thank you.

02:56:27.960 | - No, thanks.

02:56:29.440 | And that was stated in the email thread

02:56:35.440 | as Marvin participating in sexual assault

02:56:40.440 | and rape of this, unwilling sexual assault.

02:56:44.560 | And it was called rape of this person, right?

02:56:48.720 | Of this woman that propositioned him.

02:56:51.920 | And then Richard Stallman, he's kind of known for this.

02:56:56.100 | You make fun of me being a robot,

02:56:59.280 | but he's kind of like a debugger.

02:57:01.200 | He's like, well, that sentence is not,

02:57:03.160 | what you said is not correct.

02:57:05.320 | So he like corrected the person,

02:57:07.300 | basically made it seem like the use of the word rape

02:57:13.600 | is not correct, 'cause that's not the definition of rape.

02:57:16.760 | And then he was attacked for saying,

02:57:19.160 | oh, now you're playing with definitions of rape.

02:57:21.140 | Rape is rape, is the answer, right?

02:57:23.800 | And then that was leaked in him defending,

02:57:27.240 | so the way it was leaked, it was reported

02:57:30.680 | as him defending rape.

02:57:35.320 | That's the way it was reported.

02:57:36.960 | And he was pushed out and he didn't really give a damn.

02:57:40.560 | He doesn't seem to make a big deal out of it.

02:57:44.440 | He just left. - But he made

02:57:45.280 | an example of him.

02:57:46.520 | - They made an example.

02:57:47.480 | And that everyone was afraid to defend him.

02:57:51.720 | So like there's a bunch of faculty, one--

02:57:53.520 | - Dude, you're from the Soviet Union.

02:57:54.840 | Doesn't this hit close to home for you?

02:57:57.200 | - I don't know what to think of it.

02:57:59.600 | It hits close to home, but it was basically,

02:58:03.120 | at least at MIT, now MIT is such a light place with this.

02:58:06.700 | It's not common at MIT, but it was like 18, 19 year old kids,

02:58:11.120 | undergraduate kids with this kind of fire in them.

02:58:14.400 | There's just very few of them,

02:58:15.960 | but they're the ones that raise all this kind of fuss.

02:58:19.180 | And the entirety of the administration,

02:58:23.100 | all the faculty are afraid to stand up to them.

02:58:25.760 | It's so interesting to me.

02:58:28.360 | Like, I don't know if I should be afraid of that.

02:58:31.880 | - You don't think you should be afraid

02:58:33.000 | that someone who's trying to be specific

02:58:34.920 | when it comes to charges of violent assault

02:58:37.280 | is looking for that clarity,

02:58:38.640 | can get their life out of the search--

02:58:40.680 | - Let me give you more context.

02:58:42.440 | There's a little bit more context to Richard Stallman,

02:58:46.040 | which is-- - He was also a rapist.

02:58:47.840 | (both laughing)

02:58:48.920 | - No. - I left out that part.

02:58:50.040 | He liked raping people.

02:58:51.160 | - But he had a history through his life

02:58:55.920 | of every once in a while wearing the Hawaiian shirt.

02:58:59.000 | He's a fat, sorry, but he's a fat, unattractive,

02:59:06.400 | like what Trump referred to, the hacker--

02:59:09.120 | - Yeah, the 700 pound guy in the basement.

02:59:11.240 | - That's Richard.

02:59:12.080 | He is what he is.

02:59:15.600 | He would eat his own,

02:59:18.560 | he would pick skin from his feet in lectures

02:59:20.800 | and just eat it.

02:59:21.640 | - No. - Okay, yeah.

02:59:23.000 | Those videos of him doing that.

02:59:24.680 | - I'm not joking, he must really be high

02:59:25.880 | in the spectrum then.

02:59:26.920 | - Yeah. - Okay.

02:59:27.760 | - Oh yeah, yeah.

02:59:28.600 | I think in his office door,

02:59:36.600 | he wrote something like,

02:59:38.040 | hacker plus lover of ladies or something like that.

02:59:46.120 | Something kinda-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:59:48.920 | - So-- - Unprofessional.

02:59:50.160 | - Yeah, unprofessional and a little creepy.

02:59:51.960 | - Yeah, yeah, no, that's fair.

02:59:53.320 | - So he was also--

02:59:54.440 | - So they were looking for an excuse to get rid of him,

02:59:56.600 | it sounds like.

02:59:58.040 | - No, he was just, who's they?

03:00:00.720 | - The administration.

03:00:01.800 | - Yeah, probably, probably.

03:00:04.080 | - A lot of times what people don't realize,

03:00:06.040 | and this would be my defense of cancel culture,

03:00:08.600 | a lot of times when someone gets fired

03:00:10.160 | over something like this, this isn't why.

03:00:12.280 | This is just giving them cover to get rid of them

03:00:14.560 | without getting a lawsuit.

03:00:15.680 | - Yeah, but it's still--

03:00:18.160 | - Gross.

03:00:19.000 | - So I think, I guess what I'm trying to communicate

03:00:21.520 | is he was a little weird and creepy

03:00:23.560 | and he may not be the best for the community,

03:00:27.400 | but that's not necessarily the message

03:00:30.080 | it's sent to the rest of the community.

03:00:31.800 | The message is sent to the rest of the community

03:00:34.360 | that being clear about words or the usage of the word rape

03:00:39.200 | is like, you should call everything rape.

03:00:41.960 | That's basically the message it was sent.

03:00:44.520 | - Or you should call that, we say rape, rape.

03:00:46.920 | It's about submission.

03:00:48.400 | I think you'd be very happy to know

03:00:50.600 | that there's a lot of people,

03:00:52.120 | and she's very crucified of this, like Betsy DeVos,

03:00:54.440 | the president of the Department of Education,

03:00:56.120 | who are aware of this.

03:00:58.320 | They are aware that this completely contradicts

03:00:59.920 | due process.

03:01:01.560 | They're aware of how a rape accusation

03:01:03.800 | is something not to be taken seriously,

03:01:05.600 | but because it's not to be taken seriously,

03:01:07.200 | it has to be also taken seriously in other contexts

03:01:09.520 | that once that word is around a male,

03:01:12.120 | this can ruin his entire life.

03:01:13.760 | - That's the sticky thing of the word.

03:01:17.440 | Like I think about this a lot that,

03:01:22.440 | like how would I defend it if somebody,

03:01:26.560 | like I've never, I can honestly say

03:01:28.280 | I've never done anything close to creepy in my life,

03:01:32.520 | like with women.

03:01:34.880 | - But you wouldn't know it if you had, right?

03:01:36.520 | That's the thing.

03:01:37.360 | A lot of these creepy guys don't think they're creepy.

03:01:39.160 | They think they're being cute.

03:01:40.960 | - Yeah, but I'm just telling you, even like, fine.

03:01:44.760 | Let's say, right, let's say I'm not aware of it,

03:01:47.280 | but the point that I am aware of

03:01:50.120 | is that somebody could just completely make something up.

03:01:52.600 | - Correct, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

03:01:54.240 | - And like, what would I--

03:01:55.920 | - No, he denied the charges.

03:01:57.400 | There's an article around everything he did, supposedly,

03:01:59.600 | and it goes, "Mr. Friedman denied the charges," yeah.

03:02:02.640 | - But what creeps me out--

03:02:04.360 | - That happened, can I interrupt?

03:02:05.800 | Zora Neale Hurston's one of my favorite writers.

03:02:07.440 | She's from the Harlem Renaissance.

03:02:09.800 | She wrote "Their Eyes Are Watching God,"

03:02:11.480 | a couple of other books.

03:02:12.480 | She was just an amazing, amazing figure.

03:02:14.360 | Her biography's called "Wrapped in Rainbows."

03:02:16.720 | It's just a masterpiece.

03:02:17.640 | I think I read it one day.

03:02:18.840 | Can't recommend her enough.

03:02:19.840 | Fascinating, fascinating woman.

03:02:21.680 | During the '30s, I think it was, or 1940,

03:02:24.840 | she was out of the country.

03:02:26.360 | She was accused of molesting a teenage boy.

03:02:29.880 | She wasn't in America.

03:02:31.920 | This could be proven.

03:02:33.240 | So it's absolutely false, not even a question.

03:02:36.120 | She was indicted, and she wanted to kill herself

03:02:39.960 | because she's like, people are gonna see these things,

03:02:43.840 | and they're gonna think maybe there's some truth to it.

03:02:45.520 | Maybe it was voluntary.

03:02:46.680 | And you could understand why she'd be suicidal over this.

03:02:51.000 | So yeah, this is something that's been going on

03:02:52.960 | for a long time, and the fact that it's becoming,

03:02:55.600 | I do agree it's important.

03:02:57.240 | I know a lot of women who have been sexually assaulted,

03:02:59.640 | more than I am happy that I know.

03:03:01.600 | And if I know that many, that means there's more.

03:03:03.840 | So I think it's a good idea that they feel seen,

03:03:08.560 | that they don't feel wounded, they don't feel damaged,

03:03:10.560 | that they could talk to their friends.

03:03:12.080 | And I'm like, man, this sucks this is happening to you.

03:03:13.960 | And I don't think you're a slut.

03:03:15.760 | I don't think you're asking for it.

03:03:16.880 | I think you feel violated, I think it's gross.

03:03:19.240 | Talk to me, I do think that that's important.

03:03:21.960 | And I also think it's important though,

03:03:23.640 | like when things get kind of in a frenzy,

03:03:26.600 | that a lot of people are like,

03:03:27.880 | yeah, I also had something happen.

03:03:29.560 | And very quickly the line between he grabbed my boob

03:03:33.240 | and he violently raped me,

03:03:34.960 | I don't think these two things are the same at all.

03:03:37.120 | I think they're both sexual assault.

03:03:39.040 | But in terms of what someone can deal with the next day,

03:03:41.880 | the next month, 10 years later,

03:03:43.680 | I don't think they're similar scenarios.

03:03:45.960 | I had Juanita Broderick on my show

03:03:49.280 | and hearing her talk about her alleged rape by Bill Clinton

03:03:53.880 | was very disturbing for me, very disturbing to hear

03:03:57.000 | because it was like half an hour.

03:03:58.840 | So, when we think of these things and think,

03:04:00.360 | okay, hold her down, blah, blah, blah,

03:04:02.000 | and then it's done, half an hour when,

03:04:03.680 | just even someone physically holding you down

03:04:05.520 | for half an hour, like not even a sexual assault.

03:04:08.320 | Like that's traumatic.

03:04:10.000 | You think, your brain's gonna think, am I gonna die?

03:04:12.480 | When I zoom out, I think that ultimately

03:04:16.000 | this is gonna lead to a better world.

03:04:18.720 | Like empowering women to speak

03:04:21.440 | to those kinds of experiences,

03:04:23.580 | the benefit of it outweighs the--

03:04:27.480 | - The issue is whenever people are given a weapon,

03:04:30.280 | some are going to use it in nefarious ways.

03:04:33.280 | And that's the lesson of history.

03:04:34.560 | Males, females, whites, blacks, children, adults.

03:04:38.600 | When people are given a mechanism

03:04:40.200 | to execute power over others, some are gonna use it.

03:04:43.480 | - Can I ask you for a therapy thing?

03:04:46.480 | - Sure.

03:04:47.320 | - On trolling, in a sense.

03:04:50.440 | 'Cause I mentioned somebody making up something about me.

03:04:55.080 | I feel, 'cause I wear my heart on my sleeve,

03:04:57.440 | I'm not good with these attacks.

03:05:01.960 | Like I've been attacked recently,

03:05:03.800 | just being called a fraud and all that kind of stuff.

03:05:06.400 | Just light stuff.

03:05:07.320 | Like I haven't, you know, it was like, it hurt.

03:05:11.880 | - Okay, well, let me help you.

03:05:13.480 | Maybe it's 'cause I'm a New Yorker.

03:05:15.840 | No, I'm serious, here's why.

03:05:17.840 | In New York, a lot of times you'll be walking

03:05:21.160 | with your friend and a homeless person will come up to you

03:05:24.680 | and start yelling things at you.

03:05:26.720 | Your reaction isn't in those circumstances.

03:05:29.740 | Let me hear this out.

03:05:31.360 | Your reaction is physical safety and getting away.

03:05:35.040 | Now, it's not impossible that that homeless person

03:05:38.520 | is actually saying the truth.

03:05:39.880 | This happened to a friend of mine.

03:05:42.040 | This guy wasn't homeless and he's walking down the street

03:05:45.880 | on Smith Street and he's just talking out loud

03:05:48.640 | and he goes, "Why they call them hipsters?

03:05:50.560 | "What are they hip to?"

03:05:52.040 | And she chuckles and he goes,

03:05:53.820 | "What are you laughing at, fatso?

03:05:55.100 | "You start something, I'll finish it."

03:05:57.240 | And she just couldn't move.

03:05:59.040 | And it's like, is my weight a problem?

03:06:02.480 | 'Cause that's the first thing he went to.

03:06:04.380 | And I don't know that I have any advice,

03:06:08.040 | but when you hear something like this,

03:06:11.040 | I think you need to be better in terms of boundaries.

03:06:13.620 | I think you should not perceive this as a fellow human,

03:06:16.260 | but as a crazy homeless person,

03:06:18.800 | because if this fellow human,

03:06:21.520 | if I thought that you were a fraud in some context,

03:06:24.680 | that's a very weird word to use,

03:06:25.920 | 'cause fraudulent podcaster, these are real mics.

03:06:29.080 | But if I thought-- - Well, scientist or human.

03:06:31.960 | - Sure, but I would ask myself,

03:06:33.760 | is this person in a position to make this judgment,

03:06:36.440 | or are they backing it up?

03:06:37.920 | Are they saying, "Here, your conclusions were wrong.

03:06:40.600 | "Here's some mistakes in your data,

03:06:42.560 | "and you can engage with them on ideas."

03:06:44.720 | But whenever someone uses a word

03:06:46.200 | to entirely dismiss your life

03:06:48.040 | without having the knowledge of your life,

03:06:50.680 | you do not have to take that seriously.

03:06:53.680 | - I appreciate that kind of idea,

03:06:55.300 | but some things aren't about data.

03:06:58.360 | Like, I see myself as a fraud often,

03:07:02.120 | and it's more psychology of it.

03:07:05.520 | If I can reduce something to reason,

03:07:09.160 | I can probably be fine.

03:07:11.200 | My worry is the same as the worry of teenage girls

03:07:14.640 | that get bullied online.

03:07:16.280 | It's like, when I'm being open and fragile on the internet,

03:07:19.240 | it affects me in a way where I can't,

03:07:22.480 | the reason doesn't help.

03:07:24.040 | So it helps me, but-- - You don't block people enough.

03:07:26.240 | I'm very heavy with the blocking.

03:07:27.480 | - No, so yeah, I block-- - Very heavy.

03:07:30.120 | - I block, it's helped a lot. - Any aggressive banality,

03:07:32.880 | I block immediately.

03:07:34.440 | I also think time is gonna help.

03:07:36.400 | I don't think you're,

03:07:37.560 | like, you didn't grow up wanting to be a podcaster, right?

03:07:40.260 | That wasn't your aspiration.

03:07:41.740 | So in some sense, you are gonna feel like a fraud,

03:07:43.680 | 'cause you're like, "I don't have any training for this.

03:07:45.080 | "I have training for a scientist.

03:07:46.400 | "I can talk to you about artificial intelligence

03:07:47.960 | "for literally hours, but in terms of this,

03:07:49.900 | "I don't know what I'm doing, I'm kind of..."

03:07:51.680 | So when they call you a fake, it's like,

03:07:54.240 | "Yeah, you're kind of right,

03:07:55.080 | "'cause I did kind of stumble into this,

03:07:57.880 | "and this is not my pedigree."

03:07:59.760 | So I think that kind of probably speaks to you

03:08:02.000 | on some level.

03:08:02.840 | - Well, but they're attacking not the podcast, I think,

03:08:05.280 | but more like the same,

03:08:07.280 | people call Elon Musk a fraud too,

03:08:08.880 | which that's the way I rationalize it.

03:08:11.160 | Like, well, if they're calling him a fraud,

03:08:14.000 | and they're calling me a fraud,

03:08:15.740 | like, even if you have rockets that go into,

03:08:20.440 | like, if you successfully have rockets

03:08:22.240 | landing back on Earth, reusable rockets,

03:08:26.320 | you're still being called a fraud, then it's okay.

03:08:29.800 | - Not necessarily, it could be that he's not a fraud,

03:08:32.560 | and you really are.

03:08:33.500 | (Lex laughing)

03:08:35.640 | But it's not resonating with you,

03:08:36.960 | 'cause your brain knows the logic,

03:08:38.160 | so you can't trick yourself.

03:08:39.280 | - But, yeah, yeah.

03:08:42.640 | But I don't know, this whole trolling thing,

03:08:44.940 | you seem to be much better at seeing it as a game.

03:08:49.940 | - You know why?

03:08:51.800 | 'Cause you are under the delusion

03:08:54.400 | that every human being is capable

03:08:56.200 | of intelligent reasoned decision.

03:08:57.920 | - Still think I'm right.

03:08:58.760 | - And I perceive them as literally animals,

03:09:01.480 | so when a dog starts barking,

03:09:03.780 | all it's saying is that the dog is agitated,

03:09:05.840 | and this is not going to change my life one iota

03:09:08.240 | other than crossing the street, perhaps.

03:09:09.960 | - Yeah, I'm gonna prove you wrong one day.

03:09:12.680 | - If you're gonna kill yourself,

03:09:13.920 | 'cause they can drive you to it.

03:09:15.520 | The first shoot up of school.

03:09:17.520 | - But if I don't, I'll prove you wrong.

03:09:19.360 | I'll bring the data.

03:09:20.640 | And they'd be like, "You're right, Lex."

03:09:22.320 | - I have the receipts.

03:09:23.160 | - I have the receipts.

03:09:25.000 | Okay, so when we mentioned Camus.

03:09:27.680 | - Oh yeah, I love him.

03:09:29.240 | - Is there, this is a question that people love when I ask.

03:09:34.240 | I have really smart people.

03:09:37.360 | Oh, it is love.

03:09:38.380 | (laughing)

03:09:39.640 | No, what books, let's say three books,

03:09:44.640 | if you can think of them, technical, fiction, philosophical,

03:09:49.640 | would you, had a big impact on you,

03:09:52.040 | or would you recommend to others?

03:09:54.400 | - The Machiavellians by James Burnham.

03:09:56.960 | This is a book about how politics works in reality

03:09:59.840 | as opposed to how people imagine it working.

03:10:02.500 | Mencius Moldbug, who's a figure in these circles,

03:10:05.680 | who's respected by a lot of people.

03:10:07.480 | I was giving a talk and there was a bunch of panelists

03:10:10.440 | and we were asked, "What book would you recommend?"

03:10:12.640 | I said, "The Machiavellians."

03:10:14.080 | Independently of me, that was the book he had recommended.

03:10:17.120 | It's out of print, it's hard to find,

03:10:18.600 | but that would be one.

03:10:19.880 | - Is that his book or no?

03:10:20.920 | - James Burnham, it came out in 1941, I think.

03:10:23.640 | - So, can you pause on the Mencius, what's his--

03:10:26.760 | - Mencius Moldbug.

03:10:28.200 | - That's a code name, right?

03:10:29.720 | That guy's-- - Pen name.

03:10:30.560 | - That guy's pen name. - Curtis Yarvin.

03:10:32.160 | It's his real name.

03:10:33.440 | He swims in your circles.

03:10:35.640 | - Which circles? - He does some kind

03:10:36.480 | of programming. - Oh, he's originally

03:10:38.280 | a programmer.

03:10:39.400 | He comes up as a person that I should talk with

03:10:43.720 | or I should know about, but then I read a few of his things

03:10:46.800 | and they seem quite dangerous.

03:10:49.400 | They're very long and verbose,

03:10:50.800 | but I think he's an amazing thinker.

03:10:53.160 | - Yeah, but-- - But he's the one

03:10:54.000 | who had the idea of sending the tanks to Harvard Yard.

03:10:56.480 | - But doesn't he have like,

03:10:58.080 | he has some radical views.

03:11:01.320 | I forget what they are.

03:11:02.320 | - Very radical views.

03:11:03.200 | Yeah, he wants the military to coup.

03:11:05.000 | - But you're saying he's a serious thinker

03:11:08.440 | that is worthy of, not worthy.

03:11:11.840 | - I don't know that you would enjoy

03:11:13.240 | having a conversation with him.

03:11:14.360 | I think a lot of people enjoy seeing it happen,

03:11:16.160 | but I think it would be a lot of talking past each other

03:11:18.240 | and it would be interesting.

03:11:20.680 | - Would you agree-- - I did a stream

03:11:21.880 | with him, you can watch. - And would you disagree?

03:11:22.920 | Okay, what do you agree, what do you disagree?

03:11:25.400 | - I agree with him that politics has to be looked at

03:11:28.880 | objectively and without kind of an emotional connection

03:11:33.200 | to different schools.

03:11:34.600 | I talk about him a lot in my book on the New Right.

03:11:37.080 | Disagree, I don't think a military coup is a good idea.

03:11:42.160 | He doesn't think anarchism is stable, I disagree.

03:11:47.080 | I mean, me and him, I did a live stream with him,

03:11:49.160 | we just dorked out a lot about history

03:11:50.440 | and people who've fallen in the memory hole.

03:11:52.800 | So, I mean, he's got a lot of writing.

03:11:56.200 | - So, you know, the sense I got from him

03:11:58.960 | was that if I talk with him,

03:12:01.600 | a lot of people would be upset with me

03:12:03.720 | for giving him a platform.

03:12:05.200 | - Yeah, I think he's on that edge

03:12:07.200 | where they want to read him out of what is

03:12:10.280 | acceptable discourse.

03:12:11.520 | - What's his most controversial,

03:12:13.440 | I mean, you keep mentioning the tanks,

03:12:15.200 | is that the most controversial viewpoint?

03:12:17.120 | Does he have a race thing?

03:12:18.360 | - No, the alt-right doesn't particularly like him

03:12:21.440 | in many ways because he's not a big on the race thing.

03:12:24.120 | I don't know what would be his most controversial view,

03:12:27.560 | to be honest.

03:12:28.600 | I think because he is radical in terms of his analysis

03:12:33.240 | of culture, anytime someone's a radical,

03:12:34.960 | that is dangerous.

03:12:35.800 | - Yeah, it's dangerous.

03:12:36.960 | Okay, book, so that's one.

03:12:39.120 | - The Fountainhead.

03:12:39.960 | - The Maccabees Alliance.

03:12:40.800 | - The Fountainhead, which is, I would say--

03:12:43.400 | - Not Aelstrug?

03:12:44.320 | - No, and if you read Atlas Shrugged

03:12:46.160 | before reading The Fountainhead,

03:12:47.120 | you're doing yourself an enormous disservice.

03:12:48.640 | Don't you dare do it.

03:12:49.960 | - On the philosophical, because the novel--

03:12:52.040 | - On every level.

03:12:53.080 | Fountainhead's a better novel.

03:12:54.560 | Fountainhead's superfluous if you read Atlas Shrugged first.

03:12:57.120 | Fountainhead's about psychology and ethics.

03:13:00.440 | It does not have to do with her politics

03:13:02.240 | other than its implications.

03:13:03.800 | So it's by far the superior book.

03:13:05.960 | The third one, ooh, this is a good one question.

03:13:09.480 | Let me see.

03:13:10.480 | There's so many good books out there that I love.

03:13:13.160 | I'm going to, this is not really my third choice,

03:13:16.320 | but I'll throw it out there

03:13:17.200 | because this is such an important worldview,

03:13:21.160 | especially for people on the right.

03:13:22.800 | - Are you virtue signaling?

03:13:24.160 | - No, this is counter signaling.

03:13:25.760 | Thaddeus Russell's book,

03:13:27.840 | A Renegade History of the United States.

03:13:29.640 | His thesis is that it's the degenerates

03:13:33.240 | that give us all freedom.

03:13:35.060 | And things like prostitutes, things like madams,

03:13:38.560 | things like slaves, things like immigrants,

03:13:41.560 | because they were so low status,

03:13:44.400 | they could get away with things

03:13:46.000 | that then people who are higher status demanded

03:13:47.960 | and so on and so forth.

03:13:48.920 | So I think that thesis,

03:13:50.520 | and it really has extreme consequences in thinking.

03:13:55.420 | And no, Jonathan Haidt, The Righteous Mind.

03:13:59.920 | That's, those are the four.

03:14:01.320 | - Is that his best?

03:14:03.560 | I haven't read any of his stuff.

03:14:04.680 | - The Righteous Mind is the only one you want.

03:14:06.080 | - Okay.

03:14:06.920 | That was four, but of course.

03:14:10.360 | Forget Thaddeus Russell, we'll put Haidt in there.

03:14:12.560 | - Of course you would.

03:14:14.080 | - No, forget Thaddeus, those are the three.

03:14:16.240 | - So we talked about love.

03:14:18.840 | Let me ask you the other question I'm obsessed with.

03:14:21.740 | Are you, do you ponder your own mortality?

03:14:26.280 | - I do, a lot, especially now that I'm an uncle,

03:14:29.800 | especially now that I have like these younger people

03:14:31.860 | that I mentor.

03:14:33.640 | I was just yesterday, my friend John Gerges,

03:14:36.080 | who did my theme song for my podcast,

03:14:37.640 | who did the book cover for Dear Reader,

03:14:40.880 | who's like the most talented person I know.

03:14:42.920 | His song came on the iPod at the gym,

03:14:45.440 | and I almost messaged him, I go,

03:14:46.720 | you know, one day one of us is gonna bury the other,

03:14:48.840 | and it's gonna be really sad.

03:14:50.360 | And I thought about that, and it was kind of just like,

03:14:52.040 | oh man, that's really gonna suck.

03:14:53.960 | And you know, I don't know which scenario would be better.

03:14:56.360 | Like I will be very sad if he's gone.

03:14:58.600 | I'm sure he'll be very sad if I'm gone.

03:15:00.560 | - I mean, what do you, are you afraid of it?

03:15:03.400 | - No, you know, Rand had this quote

03:15:07.000 | about how I won't die, the world will end.

03:15:10.320 | So I've had enough experiences that I am,

03:15:13.560 | I've really, at this point,

03:15:16.960 | and everything's icing on the cake.

03:15:18.800 | - So if I were to kill you at the end of this podcast,

03:15:22.720 | it would feel painless, that would be okay?

03:15:25.240 | - Yeah, you know why?

03:15:26.600 | - Does anyone know you're here by the way?

03:15:28.280 | (both laughing)

03:15:29.920 | - You know why?

03:15:30.760 | - Just asking for a friend.

03:15:32.120 | - Here's why.

03:15:33.240 | There's that wit.

03:15:34.600 | Save that for Twitter, Lex.

03:15:36.160 | (Rand laughing)

03:15:37.440 | Do they call you Sasha?

03:15:38.960 | - No, I'm Ljosha.

03:15:40.280 | - Ljosha, oh, that's my sister's husband, okay.

03:15:42.440 | So here's why.

03:15:45.560 | I strongly believe,

03:15:47.240 | and this is a very kind of Jewish perspective,

03:15:49.520 | that you just have to leave the world

03:15:51.000 | a little bit better than you found it.

03:15:52.360 | That all you could do is move the needle a little.

03:15:54.400 | And one of the things I set out to do

03:15:56.520 | with "Dear Reader," my book on North Korea,

03:15:58.880 | I said, I was at a point in my career

03:16:00.560 | where I could do something to make a difference

03:16:02.080 | instead of just writing like co-authoring books

03:16:03.960 | for celebrities, which I'm very proud of,

03:16:05.360 | but are neither here nor there.

03:16:07.520 | And I thought, all right, I know how to tell stories.

03:16:09.800 | I know how to inform people.

03:16:10.800 | I know how to entertain people.

03:16:12.160 | If I move the needle in America, who cares?

03:16:14.440 | We got it really good here.

03:16:15.760 | If I move the needle in North Korea a little bit,

03:16:18.360 | the cost benefits through the roof.

03:16:20.280 | - I never thought of that, actually.

03:16:22.400 | I never thought of "Dear Reader" from that perspective.

03:16:24.800 | - So when I set out to write it, I'm like, okay,

03:16:28.000 | what can I do?

03:16:28.840 | I'm not gonna be able to liberate the North Korean regime.

03:16:30.720 | What I can do is the camera right now

03:16:33.920 | is focused on at the time Kim Jong-il, now Kim Jong-un.

03:16:37.040 | And I can do just this, just this a little bit.

03:16:39.000 | And I go, behind that guy who you think is funny clown,

03:16:42.720 | there's millions of dead people.

03:16:44.520 | There's children being starved.

03:16:46.240 | There's people who are performing

03:16:47.880 | 'cause they have a gun to their kid's head.

03:16:49.640 | And if someone put a gun to your kid's head,

03:16:51.080 | you'd put on those dancing shoes real quick.

03:16:53.200 | And I and others have managed to change the conversation

03:16:57.440 | about North Korea in terms of,

03:16:59.160 | look at those silly buffoons to those poor people.

03:17:02.920 | So the fact that that little thing

03:17:05.000 | I can say with a straight face, I did,

03:17:07.720 | doesn't make me a great person,

03:17:09.400 | but it does make me someone who,

03:17:11.040 | if I have to go tomorrow, I can say I did a little bit

03:17:15.600 | to make the world a better place.

03:17:17.800 | - What do you think is the meaning of life?

03:17:20.200 | - I think the meaning of life is...

03:17:23.840 | - Why are we here?

03:17:27.600 | - Oh, well, I'm a Camus person.

03:17:29.560 | So I'll give the Camus answer.

03:17:31.320 | So there's two types of people.

03:17:33.720 | Those who know how to use binary, no.

03:17:35.520 | (both laughing)

03:17:38.800 | - Thanks for relating to the audience.

03:17:40.720 | - 111001, two, two.

03:17:43.600 | (both laughing)

03:17:45.280 | Down vote.

03:17:46.120 | (both laughing)

03:17:47.520 | What kind of radical freak is this, Lex?

03:17:50.080 | So, and I use this example in my forthcoming book.

03:17:53.340 | You go into a countryside, a mountainside,

03:17:56.040 | and you see a blank canvas on an easel.

03:17:59.000 | And one kind of mentality goes,

03:18:00.600 | this is, it's just a blank canvas.

03:18:02.840 | This is stupid.

03:18:03.680 | This is, what am I looking at?

03:18:05.000 | And the other type goes, what a great opportunity.

03:18:08.280 | I'm in this beautiful space.

03:18:09.760 | I have this entire canvas to paint.

03:18:11.440 | I could do anything I want with it.

03:18:13.280 | So I am very much of that type two person.

03:18:16.640 | And I hope others start to think of life in that way.

03:18:21.640 | You and I have both been more successful

03:18:23.720 | than we expected to, especially growing up,

03:18:25.880 | and in ways we did not expect.

03:18:28.640 | And when you're young,

03:18:30.000 | you are so intent on driving the car.

03:18:33.000 | And after a certain point,

03:18:34.200 | you realize it's not about driving the car,

03:18:35.920 | you're being a surfer.

03:18:37.280 | That you can only control this little board,

03:18:39.280 | and you have no idea where the waves will take you.

03:18:41.080 | And sometimes you're gonna fall down,

03:18:42.160 | and sometimes you're really gonna suck,

03:18:43.160 | and you're gonna swallow some salt water.

03:18:44.800 | But at a certain point, you stop trying to drive,

03:18:47.440 | and you're like, this is freaking awesome,

03:18:48.840 | and I have no idea where it's gonna go.

03:18:50.680 | - Beautifully put.

03:18:53.400 | I know I speak for a lot of people.

03:18:54.980 | First of all, everyone loves the game you play

03:18:58.820 | on the intranet, it's fun.

03:19:00.780 | You make the world, not everyone.

03:19:02.260 | - Today, oof, they came for me hard.

03:19:05.240 | - But it makes the world seem fun,

03:19:08.580 | and especially in this dark time, it's much appreciated.

03:19:12.620 | And we can't wait 'til the next book,

03:19:14.620 | and the many to come,

03:19:15.620 | and to hopefully many more Joe Rogan appearances.

03:19:18.620 | You guys do some great magic together.

03:19:20.380 | - It's fun.

03:19:21.220 | - Yeah, it's, you, yeah.

03:19:24.300 | You're one of my favorite guests on this show,

03:19:26.540 | so I can't wait,

03:19:27.540 | especially if you can make it before the election.

03:19:30.740 | Thanks so much for making today happen.

03:19:32.300 | I'm glad you came down.

03:19:33.780 | You're awesome.

03:19:34.620 | - Thank you so much, man, great compliment.

03:19:37.180 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

03:19:38.820 | with Michael Malice, and thank you to our sponsors.

03:19:41.860 | SEMrush, which is a SEO optimization tool,

03:19:46.220 | DoorDash, which is my go-to food delivery service,

03:19:49.660 | and Masterclass, which is online courses

03:19:53.020 | from world experts.

03:19:55.020 | Please check out these sponsors in the description

03:19:57.140 | to get a discount and to support this podcast.

03:20:00.620 | If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube,

03:20:02.820 | review it with Five Stars on Apple Podcast,

03:20:04.980 | follow on Spotify, support on Patreon,

03:20:07.660 | or connect with me on Twitter @LexFriedman.

03:20:11.340 | And now, let me leave you with some words

03:20:13.420 | from Michael Malice.

03:20:15.260 | Conservatism is progressivism driving the speed limit.

03:20:18.980 | Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

03:20:22.780 | (upbeat music)

03:20:25.360 | (upbeat music)

03:20:27.940 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Michael Malice: Anarchy, Democracy, Libertarianism, Love, and Trolling | Lex Fridman Podcast #128

Chapters