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00:01:34.640 | Hello, and welcome to another episode of all the hacks, a show about

00:01:41.680 | upgrading your life, money, and travel.

00:01:43.640 | If you're new here, I'm your host, Chris Hutchins, and I'm a diehard

00:01:46.680 | optimizer who loves doing all the research to get you the best experience

00:01:50.640 | in life without an expensive price tag to make that happen.

00:01:54.080 | I'm sitting down with the world's best experts every week to learn the

00:01:57.680 | strategies, tactics, and frameworks that shape their success.

00:02:00.640 | Today, I'm talking with Andrew Warner, a serial entrepreneur who in his

00:02:04.560 | twenties started a successful internet business doing 30 million in sales.

00:02:08.440 | Later, he started Mixergy, a platform that offers interviews, courses, and

00:02:12.480 | mentorship to help founders learn to grow their businesses.

00:02:15.440 | And since 2008, he's hosted Startup Stories, a podcast where he's interviewed

00:02:20.360 | over 2000 entrepreneurs from Ryan Holiday to Robert Green.

00:02:24.480 | I've listened to many episodes in my days and it's a fantastic show, but

00:02:29.000 | today we're actually going to talk about his book, Stop Asking Questions,

00:02:33.000 | How to Lead High Impact Interviews and Learn Anything from Anyone.

00:02:36.840 | But don't think that because you're not a podcast host or a professional

00:02:40.280 | interviewer, that this isn't for you.

00:02:41.760 | We're going to learn how you can be a better, more interesting

00:02:44.720 | conversationalist in all kinds of settings, from networking to job

00:02:48.640 | interviews, to talking with friends and family.

00:02:50.720 | We're going to talk about why this is a skill everyone should master and

00:02:53.680 | learn, what most people get wrong about how they ask questions, how to improve

00:02:58.040 | the kinds of questions you ask and why that's important, how to build rapport

00:03:01.840 | with people you've just met or don't even know anything about, and a lot more.

00:03:05.560 | So let's jump in.

00:03:07.360 | Andrew, thank you for being here.

00:03:10.640 | Welcome to the show.

00:03:11.640 | Thanks for having me on Chris.

00:03:13.000 | So I'm just going to jump in.

00:03:14.600 | You named the book, Stop Asking Questions, but it's really

00:03:17.280 | about asking better questions.

00:03:18.800 | I don't agree.

00:03:19.600 | Can you talk about that?

00:03:20.440 | How did you pick that name?

00:03:21.560 | We think as interviewers and conversationalists that

00:03:24.720 | we need to ask questions.

00:03:26.000 | And what I've discovered is that asking too many questions makes you

00:03:30.680 | seem needy and makes you feel like you're not really part of the conversation.

00:03:35.200 | We should not be having question after question, be our style.

00:03:39.440 | Our style should be a conversation that brings out what we're trying to learn,

00:03:42.760 | brings out what our audience needs to learn.

00:03:44.520 | And I find that questions often counteracts that.

00:03:47.480 | Okay.

00:03:48.560 | We talk about this in a professional setting.

00:03:50.200 | You and I both record a lot of podcasts, you a lot more than me, but this is a

00:03:53.680 | skill regular people can use also, right?

00:03:55.520 | Yes, dude.

00:03:57.240 | How many times do parents try to get their kids to just tell them about

00:04:00.880 | their day, talk about a problem.

00:04:02.560 | And then they pelt them with questions that are really

00:04:05.320 | challenging for kids to answer.

00:04:07.320 | Frankly, sometimes even just saying what'd you do today is challenging.

00:04:10.200 | But if they say, I don't want to go to school tomorrow.

00:04:13.240 | And you say, because that one word will often get them to open up.

00:04:17.280 | It's like these magical phrases that will work in any part of life.

00:04:20.960 | And if you see my interviews, you see, I will just throw in the word

00:04:23.960 | because interrupt someone sometimes.

00:04:26.280 | And because I've done that, they will go into the depth and the reasons

00:04:29.960 | of what they did and why they did it.

00:04:31.840 | And so that's what it's about.

00:04:32.920 | Sometimes it's about asking a question.

00:04:34.640 | Sure.

00:04:35.120 | But often it's not asking a question.

00:04:37.680 | It's just a one word like transition that I've handed to them and they

00:04:41.760 | can't help, but use to explain why.

00:04:43.960 | Why don't you want to go to school tomorrow is kind of challenging.

00:04:46.880 | Now they're put on the spot.

00:04:47.880 | They've said something.

00:04:49.200 | And I say, because now there's an expectation that they're of course

00:04:52.120 | going to finish the sentence because my friend doesn't like me because my

00:04:55.920 | friend is moved on to first grade.

00:04:57.640 | And I'm still in kindergarten, whatever it is, it comes out naturally.

00:05:00.680 | Now, the reason that I wrote this book is because I found that a lot of people

00:05:05.080 | were doing interviews the way they were supposed to, which is I'm

00:05:08.520 | going to ask the best question.

00:05:09.800 | Some people would even write the questions ahead of time, instead of being more

00:05:13.600 | present in the conversation and instead of saying, what's the best way to get

00:05:18.280 | the most knowledge out of this person who I'm talking with and the best bonding.

00:05:22.840 | And when you start with that, instead of how do I write the best questions, you

00:05:26.320 | end up with a deeper conversation that often involves you sharing and not

00:05:31.360 | asking the question, you making a statement, you directing the person.

00:05:36.600 | My first use case, I thought about this, that an average person might be

00:05:40.720 | preparing for an interview is in a job setting.

00:05:43.520 | I'm looking for a job.

00:05:44.360 | I'm going in.

00:05:45.000 | I know at some point someone's going to say, all right, what

00:05:47.040 | questions do you have for me?

00:05:48.200 | My initial advice after reading your book was, well, you should have such a good

00:05:51.600 | conversation that you don't even leave time for the questions.

00:05:53.800 | How would you advise someone thinking about that professional setting

00:05:57.080 | where they have time to prepare?

00:05:58.120 | Okay.

00:05:58.520 | Let me give you one.

00:05:59.200 | What questions you have for me, the natural next step might be to say, how

00:06:02.600 | many hours do we work here, right?

00:06:04.640 | Now you're coming across as a needy person trying to understand.

00:06:08.400 | It's hard for me to say this, but if you keep asking questions, you come across as

00:06:11.640 | an inferior versus saying, now tell me about the hours at work here, talk a

00:06:16.760 | little bit about what's expected from us in our off hours, talk a little bit about

00:06:21.320 | how we connect to each other in the company instead of, so how do we connect

00:06:25.200 | each other?

00:06:25.640 | So what you're doing, and this is one example is directing the person.

00:06:30.720 | Directing gives them the confidence that you can lead them, that you could lead

00:06:36.640 | them through the conversation and also that you can lead at the job.

00:06:40.120 | And so that's a good example of me saying, shouldn't be a question.

00:06:42.880 | Sometimes you just need to make a statement, take control in my book.

00:06:45.880 | Stop asking questions.

00:06:46.800 | I gave the example of how my wife and my family went on these tours of national

00:06:50.840 | parks.

00:06:51.200 | And if we would ever have a tour guide who would walk around and go, do you want

00:06:54.360 | to turn right or left?

00:06:55.320 | What do you like to see?

00:06:56.440 | Do you like to see this track or that it's too much?

00:06:58.960 | You're the expert say, and now we're going to turn left because when we turn

00:07:02.720 | left, you're going to see what the bears have done here.

00:07:04.840 | And if we turn right after that, you're going to see what's happened because we

00:07:08.520 | haven't had enough water here in California.

00:07:10.120 | Boom.

00:07:10.480 | Now you got somebody who knows you, who you feel confident that they could lead

00:07:13.560 | you.

00:07:13.720 | That's the way you need to be as an interviewer, as a conversationalist.

00:07:16.920 | And yes, like you said, somebody is about to get a job and they're being asked, do

00:07:20.680 | you have any questions for me?

00:07:21.640 | You don't have to specifically give a question, start directing them.

00:07:25.160 | So for not asking as many questions, talk about how someone should prepare for

00:07:30.520 | conversations when they have advanced notice of who they're talking about in

00:07:33.400 | the topic.

00:07:33.840 | The best thing is to go deep.

00:07:37.000 | This is going to be a little bit, woo, go deep in your heart and say, what the

00:07:39.920 | hell do I need to get out of this person?

00:07:41.480 | What do I need to get out of this conversation?

00:07:43.080 | Not what does some imaginary audience member need to know?

00:07:46.520 | And I need to get, we don't need that imaginary audience member anymore.

00:07:49.960 | It's, I have a problem.

00:07:51.840 | What do I want to understand from this person that I can't get from anywhere

00:07:56.880 | else?

00:07:57.320 | Go deep and say, ah, that's the thing that I need.

00:08:00.040 | And if it's for your audience, the only way I think to get to your audience is to

00:08:05.640 | have a drink with your audience members or a meal or dinner with a few of them.

00:08:09.760 | One at a time, ideally in small groups, if you can do one at a time and as often as

00:08:15.080 | you can, and then have them tell you their problems, let them find ways to get

00:08:18.920 | it out, have them tell you their problems.

00:08:21.520 | And specifically the ones you can't answer, feel that pain of having somebody

00:08:26.520 | come to you as the expert interviewer, as the expert business person is the expert,

00:08:31.120 | whatever.

00:08:31.600 | And they're asking you a question.

00:08:33.160 | You don't have the answer.

00:08:33.840 | And then you say, be humble.

00:08:35.400 | I don't know.

00:08:36.080 | I'm going to do interviews and now I'm going to find out.

00:08:38.480 | And now when you ask that question of somebody else, you're going to have a

00:08:42.800 | deep need to get the answer because you couldn't answer it because somebody you

00:08:46.200 | cared about who you had a meal with or a drink with asked you a question that you

00:08:49.560 | can't answer.

00:08:50.360 | That's where it comes from.

00:08:52.080 | And so the first thing to do is not to do research.

00:08:54.960 | And I believe in doing research and I know you do too.

00:08:56.880 | The first thing to do is not to write out a list of questions.

00:08:59.480 | And a lot of interviewers do that.

00:09:00.880 | We don't want to do that.

00:09:02.040 | The first thing is to say, what do I need?

00:09:05.200 | What do I need?

00:09:06.840 | I just thought of an idea of what you just said.

00:09:09.960 | Using this job interview example, start talking to your friend, talking to your

00:09:12.760 | spouse, talking to your family members about this job you're getting and see

00:09:16.200 | which questions that they have for you about the company that you can't answer

00:09:19.840 | and you wish you knew as a way to kind of generate ideas of what could be

00:09:23.960 | interesting.

00:09:24.360 | Great one.

00:09:25.000 | What about when you don't know someone there's practicing for a conversation,

00:09:29.720 | you know, you're going to have, and then there's, I'm going to a

00:09:31.760 | cocktail party, I'm going to a conference.

00:09:33.280 | I don't know who I'm going to meet or who they're going to be.

00:09:35.160 | Is there a way to just build repetition or get your reps in for practicing

00:09:40.240 | conversational skills without any person that you know you're talking to?

00:09:45.040 | Oh, I do that a lot.

00:09:46.360 | First of all, if you don't know someone and you need like a hook in, the thing

00:09:50.040 | to do is to find out what are they really passionate about.

00:09:52.600 | And again, if you say, what are you passionate about?

00:09:55.600 | I don't know.

00:09:56.560 | It seems a little bit like 12 year olds going on a first date where they're

00:09:59.760 | pretending that they know what they're doing, but they don't like, it feels

00:10:02.120 | like the wonder years where the boy in there was trying to go on a date and

00:10:05.560 | you just get a lot of questions.

00:10:06.680 | I think a better way to do it is I would think about what did I do

00:10:10.080 | that it was passionate about.

00:10:11.000 | So I might say, we just did some standup paddleboarding.

00:10:13.800 | I never did it before.

00:10:15.640 | We got this inflatable standup paddleboard, 230 bucks off of Amazon.

00:10:19.720 | The thing is fricking good.

00:10:20.800 | What's not good as me, I got on the paddleboard and I just kept going into

00:10:24.760 | these waves in the lake over here.

00:10:26.360 | And the reason they're ways is that people go through a jet skis and boats.

00:10:28.680 | And anyway, I'm falling off in their way and I lost my paddle,

00:10:31.040 | but I bought a new one.

00:10:32.240 | I'm so psyched to go back.

00:10:33.600 | There's so many places here in Austin where you can go do it.

00:10:36.040 | Anyway, I've talked too much.

00:10:37.960 | What do you do this fun?

00:10:39.480 | Or what are you doing around here that gets you this excited?

00:10:41.840 | Give him some direction after you've shared a little bit.

00:10:45.080 | And by the way, as an interviewer, I thought I wasn't allowed

00:10:47.560 | to share my part of life.

00:10:49.120 | I thought all I needed to do was be there for the other person.

00:10:51.320 | But when I get this excited about what I'm doing, the other person can't help,

00:10:54.240 | but say, oh yeah, my big thing is.

00:10:56.160 | And then they go off on how they love going to water parks

00:10:58.760 | or they love lifting weights or whatever it is that they get into.

00:11:01.480 | So that's the thing that I try to do.

00:11:03.760 | And then you talk about how do you get your reps in an experiment?

00:11:06.760 | I absolutely do practice my question techniques in private

00:11:10.800 | when there's somebody that I meet and I don't think I'm ever going to meet them again.

00:11:14.360 | I just throw out a question approach to see how will they respond.

00:11:17.480 | I try to direct them.

00:11:19.040 | Tell me what you were doing this weekend instead of.

00:11:20.760 | So what were you doing this weekend and see what happens if I try it on someone

00:11:23.880 | in person and it doesn't feel awkward and I don't see a distance

00:11:26.920 | in the conversation, I think it's a good technique.

00:11:29.880 | Keep it in my Google Doc full of techniques for having better conversations.

00:11:33.920 | Tell me what else is in the Google Doc, right?

00:11:36.400 | You've got starting with tell me you use pausing and interrupting

00:11:39.400 | people saying because let them continue.

00:11:42.080 | What other tactics work really well in this conversational flow?

00:11:45.600 | The one that started the whole thing for me was I, for years,

00:11:51.080 | felt really bad because I asked Jason Fried,

00:11:55.360 | the founder of Basecamp, how he failed, when he failed.

00:11:58.880 | And he just kind of looked away.

00:12:01.920 | I still see him right now as we're talking in my head, looking away and going,

00:12:05.280 | well, sometimes we just don't have any setback.

00:12:07.720 | Some things just don't have that.

00:12:09.600 | And the more I push, the more he just acted

00:12:13.480 | or I felt that he acted like I was an idiot

00:12:16.800 | who always failed and couldn't understand that sometimes people don't just

00:12:21.440 | fall on their face when they're just trying to walk to the other end of the room.

00:12:24.840 | Anyway, that ate away at me.

00:12:26.520 | I asked him about his setback and he didn't give me an example.

00:12:29.680 | And I kept pushing.

00:12:30.960 | And the more I pushed, the more he resisted.

00:12:33.040 | So I hired an interview coach and I gave him that specific example.

00:12:37.800 | I said, look, Jeremy, before we talk about anything else,

00:12:41.160 | I have to tell you about this one problem.

00:12:42.680 | And I told him and he goes, oh,

00:12:45.840 | my therapist had a situation like that.

00:12:47.880 | Go tell me, goes my therapist had a technique called join the resistance,

00:12:52.480 | says my therapist would have these men who would come into her office

00:12:55.920 | and she would say, OK, tell me about the problem you and your wife are facing.

00:12:59.600 | And the husband would go, I don't have any problems, say,

00:13:02.640 | but you're clearly in here because you have a problem.

00:13:05.360 | There's an issue in the relationship.

00:13:07.480 | It's not me. It's her. I don't have any problem.

00:13:10.120 | What are we doing here?

00:13:11.440 | I don't know. She made me come.

00:13:13.440 | And the more the therapist pushed, the more the person put up a resistance

00:13:17.120 | and then like sidestepped the whole problem.

00:13:19.880 | So Jeremy's therapist said she decided to join the resistance

00:13:24.920 | if she said, tell me about the problem you and your wife are having.

00:13:27.200 | And the person said, I'm not having any problem.

00:13:29.600 | She would say, oh, must be good.

00:13:32.880 | You know what? All I hear that people have problems.

00:13:35.680 | It must be good for you to just have an easy going life without any problems.

00:13:39.400 | Congratulations.

00:13:41.120 | And then the person go easy.

00:13:42.960 | All she does is she keeps complaining to me.

00:13:44.840 | And I don't know when we could spend time together

00:13:46.840 | because my work is now taking up a whole lot of time.

00:13:49.000 | And I've never had to work this many hours, let alone this late in my career.

00:13:52.400 | Now they were off on a conversation that mattered.

00:13:55.040 | And so, Jeremy, my interview coach said, join the resistance.

00:13:59.960 | Whenever you ask a guest a question and they resist, stop fighting with them.

00:14:05.560 | Join the resistance. Say something like, well, it must be great to have an easy business.

00:14:11.000 | Everyone else is struggling.

00:14:12.080 | It must be great to have an easy time building your company

00:14:15.080 | when the rest of us are working really hard.

00:14:17.320 | When I say that, the person will immediately lash out at me and go hard.

00:14:21.000 | I mean, you think this is easy?

00:14:22.080 | You don't know.

00:14:22.520 | Last night we were up because the servers were down.

00:14:24.200 | And then somebody a week ago was complaining to me about the way

00:14:27.480 | that we are interacting at work.

00:14:29.400 | And I'm trying to get work done, not talk about what their interpersonal issues are.

00:14:33.120 | Now we've got a real problem we can talk about.

00:14:35.320 | So anyway, because the coach said, join the resistance.

00:14:38.760 | And he gave me that phrase.

00:14:39.920 | I wrote it down in a Google doc with that phrase.

00:14:42.960 | And I said, oh, I'm going to remember this because it has a name.

00:14:46.600 | And so I started to whenever I would have a new technique, I would give it a name

00:14:50.240 | and I'd add that technique to a Google doc.

00:14:52.560 | Yeah, I saw the list in the book where there's like a directory of tactics.

00:14:57.240 | So there are plenty more for anyone listening who wants more than we'll get to today.

00:15:01.680 | But you talk about building yourself up, not making yourself seem needy

00:15:06.680 | and asking questions when you're interviewing for a job

00:15:08.800 | or maybe you're doing references with someone's previous manager.

00:15:11.880 | Can you still use those techniques to get people who are more guarded

00:15:15.680 | with information to share?

00:15:17.320 | I use it with people all the time.

00:15:19.080 | I think sometimes people are guarded because they're modest,

00:15:22.440 | because they're not jerks.

00:15:23.960 | I used to in San Francisco have entrepreneurs come over for scotch at my office

00:15:27.800 | and they would just ask me all these questions and someone say,

00:15:30.680 | how do you get people to give you their numbers?

00:15:32.720 | And I said, well, what I do is I give them a dramatic lowball.

00:15:34.960 | I said, what do you mean, dramatic lowball?

00:15:36.560 | I said, I had this woman on.

00:15:38.400 | She wouldn't give me her revenue number.

00:15:40.600 | So I said to her, and I knew that it was at least 10 million.

00:15:45.000 | I said to her, do you think you'll hit a million soon?

00:15:49.560 | She was a million.

00:15:50.680 | We're doing at least 10, 20 times that.

00:15:52.560 | We're not trying to reach a million.

00:15:54.320 | Anyway, I said that at scotch night and the guy goes, Oh, that's such a good technique.

00:15:58.360 | If you go dramatic lowball, people feel insulted enough

00:16:01.120 | that they have to come back at you.

00:16:03.160 | So we started talking about other things.

00:16:04.800 | And when we're at scotch night at my office, we're tasting different scotches,

00:16:07.880 | talking about what we're into.

00:16:09.880 | And at one point we got into running and the guy said, So how much you run?

00:16:13.240 | I said, Yeah, I run as much as I can here and there.

00:16:16.000 | And the guy goes, Andrew, do you think you'll get to run a marathon sometime?

00:16:21.200 | Maybe. And I go, a marathon sometime.

00:16:23.600 | I've run more marathons than I can count.

00:16:25.240 | Literally, there was one time in Washington, D.C.

00:16:27.560 | My wife left me at the top of Rock Creek Park and I just ran all the way down.

00:16:30.760 | That was over 30 miles.

00:16:32.360 | And there was no other way for me to get home except to run back to the house.

00:16:35.440 | So a marathon is nothing for me.

00:16:37.600 | And then he was smiling and others around the scotch table were smiling, too.

00:16:42.760 | And I couldn't understand why they were laughing at me at first.

00:16:45.600 | I thought maybe they were laughing at me because that's not that much to run.

00:16:49.480 | And then I realized he used dramatic lowball on me.

00:16:52.800 | And so this works everywhere.

00:16:55.560 | Yes, it works in interviews.

00:16:56.800 | Yes, it works in private conversations.

00:16:58.920 | It absolutely does.

00:17:01.320 | So I am quite comfortable right now, which is actually true almost every day.

00:17:05.640 | And that's thanks to Viore.

00:17:06.960 | And I'm excited to be partnering with them for this episode.

00:17:09.600 | They make performance apparel that's incredibly versatile.

00:17:12.880 | Everything is designed to work out in, but it doesn't look or feel like it at all.

00:17:17.240 | And it's so freaking comfortable.

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00:19:24.000 | Are there some examples of people you've talked to outside

00:19:27.560 | of the professional interviewing setting that after adopting these techniques

00:19:32.120 | have seen real tangible outcomes

00:19:36.000 | or improvements in their career or their life or their relationships?

00:19:39.320 | Yes, I was invited in when I first wrote the book to talk at a company.

00:19:44.800 | It was called People.ai.

00:19:47.240 | They said, oh, we're salespeople.

00:19:48.920 | We need these techniques, too, because salespeople, if they do it well,

00:19:52.880 | what they do is they ask questions.

00:19:55.120 | And so they bought a copy of my book for each one of their salespeople,

00:19:59.800 | and then they invited me in to speak.

00:20:01.320 | And then afterwards, I got messages from people about how they use these techniques.

00:20:05.120 | There's one salesperson who said, Andrew, you want to know numbers

00:20:08.800 | because you're trying to create a podcast where you're revealing to your audience

00:20:12.480 | the revenue that your guest has.

00:20:14.680 | He says, I need numbers because I want to know the extent of a problem.

00:20:17.600 | I want to know, like, how much of an issue this is to figure out

00:20:21.040 | whether we can solve it or not.

00:20:22.920 | It was what I do is I come in with a dramatic low ball.

00:20:26.280 | I will use something like, well, it seems like you're maybe losing

00:20:29.880 | only a thousand dollars a month with this problem that you've told me about.

00:20:33.000 | And the person will come and know it's more than a thousand dollars,

00:20:34.960 | and then they'll start to fight back and explain how this is really costing

00:20:37.640 | the business half a million a year.

00:20:39.000 | And now that the salesman knows the measurable pain of not solving it,

00:20:44.320 | he can address how just spending a little bit of money on their software

00:20:47.880 | can help him alleviate that pain.

00:20:50.120 | Salespeople for sure use this.

00:20:52.120 | What about at home?

00:20:53.840 | Do you use any of these tactics with family and friends

00:20:57.240 | when there's no business use case?

00:20:59.040 | It's just trying to build deeper relationships with people

00:21:01.200 | you already know a bit about.

00:21:03.080 | I do. I think the biggest one that I use is the word because

00:21:06.720 | the thing that happens in conversations is we say what happened is factual.

00:21:11.120 | It's interesting, but it doesn't tell me why you're doing something, why it matters.

00:21:15.600 | And the problem is, if I say, well,

00:21:19.000 | tell me why you feel that way or tell me why you did that.

00:21:21.680 | I'm putting you in this self-evaluation mode

00:21:24.920 | that you can't really tap into in a conversation.

00:21:29.080 | Even with a therapist, you have a hard time doing it.

00:21:31.680 | But if you're telling me that you did this and you did that, and I say because.

00:21:38.000 | Now I'm just handing you the next word for you to have to respond to.

00:21:42.600 | I'm almost insisting that you tell me I'm creating a gap

00:21:46.440 | that you feel you have to fill in.

00:21:48.440 | If I say because you feel like you have to pick that up and say, well,

00:21:51.200 | because I wasn't feeling very good because I'm feeling this way that now

00:21:55.320 | you understand why.

00:21:56.200 | So because it's an easy one to use with people.

00:21:59.160 | You say in the book, people prefer to be heard more than to be helped.

00:22:03.680 | I know my wife would agree sometimes in our conversations

00:22:07.680 | for people who have a natural tendency

00:22:10.320 | to jump in and help to try to solve a problem or interject.

00:22:13.680 | Are there any ways that you found helpful to bite your tongue effectively?

00:22:19.600 | Maybe that's literally the answer for people that that's not natural for.

00:22:23.000 | I have found that I don't take advice very well

00:22:26.480 | when it comes to problems that I don't recognize

00:22:30.000 | in an environment that I feel comfortable with.

00:22:32.640 | So if you were to give me advice on how I could use my Mac better,

00:22:36.760 | maybe even about my business, I feel like, all right,

00:22:38.360 | I've heard it from so many people, I don't need it.

00:22:40.800 | But we just moved to five acres in Austin.

00:22:43.080 | I decided that I would get a circular saw

00:22:47.840 | so that I can cut wood and make it into a compost box.

00:22:52.000 | I don't know how to even turn on a circular saw.

00:22:54.240 | I literally didn't know how to put the blade in.

00:22:56.440 | I don't know how to connect two pieces of wood together.

00:23:00.240 | Turns out you have to drill a hole first and then put a screw into it.

00:23:03.320 | And the videos I saw on YouTube, they were just putting a screw in.

00:23:06.240 | But I didn't realize there was a hole there before.

00:23:08.240 | Anyway, I don't know any of it.

00:23:10.160 | And so I'm ready to take advice better.

00:23:13.440 | I'm ready to be more of a learner and less of a know-it-all

00:23:16.440 | who's going to stop and interrupt you.

00:23:19.040 | What I'm getting at is I think if anyone out there is in a very

00:23:22.840 | know-it-all place where they can't stop, but give people.

00:23:25.720 | Answers and solve their problems that are listening to their problems,

00:23:30.440 | get out of your own comfort zone, get into a place

00:23:33.520 | where you don't know what you're talking about,

00:23:35.520 | because there you're just going to shut up more

00:23:39.680 | and give direction and advice less, and it'll build a better habit for you.

00:23:43.840 | And I think that if you do that, you're going to be much more open

00:23:48.240 | to listening to people and less to giving them advice.

00:23:50.760 | You're going to be much more open to not knowing and looking for understanding.

00:23:55.600 | And I think that I was blessed with Mixergy, my podcast of 15 years,

00:23:59.480 | and that I really started it after I failed.

00:24:03.520 | The thing that made it into a podcast was this video that I posted

00:24:06.840 | where I said I was starting a software company and I failed.

00:24:09.800 | I'm going to do interviews with people to learn how to not fail this way again.

00:24:13.960 | And if I've admitted to myself in the world that I failed,

00:24:17.480 | that I don't know how to do entrepreneurship the way that I wanted to,

00:24:21.800 | the way that I thought I could.

00:24:23.840 | Now, when someone came to me, I couldn't give them advice.

00:24:28.280 | I just admitted I don't know everything.

00:24:30.440 | I had to ask questions and learn.

00:24:32.240 | I had to say I don't know enough, and that's why I'm interviewing these people.

00:24:35.160 | Let me ask them.

00:24:36.400 | And so what I would suggest is if you're talking too much,

00:24:39.600 | you need to get into an environment where you don't know enough.

00:24:41.880 | And if it's in a relationship and the person you're with is a better runner,

00:24:45.160 | go run with them.

00:24:45.920 | If they're a better swimmer, go sign up for a swim with them.

00:24:48.480 | If they're better at anything, if they're better at knitting,

00:24:50.800 | go sign up for knitting class with them so that you are not the expert

00:24:54.040 | and you have to be the I don't know what I'm doing here.

00:24:56.400 | This seems so foreign to me.

00:24:58.240 | And you'll learn to listen and you'll learn to want other people to talk.

00:25:02.320 | So back to your example of paddleboarding,

00:25:03.960 | if you're having that conversation with someone and you hear something come up

00:25:07.520 | about a topic you don't know and you want to try to build

00:25:11.600 | a more engaging conversation, just let them run.

00:25:14.040 | It might help you shut up, which I know is something that has been effective

00:25:17.880 | for me in my career is just learning when to stop talking,

00:25:20.800 | which goes back to the title.

00:25:21.880 | But let's go back to that example of productivity.

00:25:24.400 | So you mentioned if you're going to have a conversation for an hour with me

00:25:27.600 | or anyone, and we were just going to talk about how to optimize using your Mac

00:25:31.000 | and moving windows around, which we actually just did in an episode

00:25:34.120 | a couple of weeks ago.

00:25:34.960 | You might be like, I just don't want to be here.

00:25:36.680 | But there are a lot of conversations that people get into

00:25:39.480 | where leaving is not the option.

00:25:41.840 | So what do you do in those circumstances?

00:25:43.480 | Right. I'm about to talk to someone and I don't want to hear what they have to say.

00:25:47.560 | Yeah. But you want to build a relationship with that person.

00:25:50.640 | Oh, I just shifted to what I really care about.

00:25:52.960 | There's so many times when you have to really go into a conversation

00:25:56.080 | with people and you don't care.

00:25:57.560 | I think it's OK to shift the conversation to what you genuinely do care about.

00:26:01.080 | What if it's clear that's what they want to talk about?

00:26:03.080 | Do you give it to them?

00:26:03.960 | Do you just kind of nod your head or have you found some way to harness

00:26:07.680 | interest in things people are talking about that

00:26:10.720 | at first glance are just not interesting?

00:26:14.200 | I was never able to have conversations with people.

00:26:16.720 | I just didn't know the mechanics of conversations.

00:26:18.960 | Then I read a book called How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale

00:26:21.960 | Carnegie, and the big message of it is take an interest in other people

00:26:26.000 | if you want them to like you.

00:26:27.440 | So if they are interested in a thing, you talk to them about the thing.

00:26:31.000 | And I was so moved by the book

00:26:32.440 | that I went and I knocked on Dale Carnegie and Associates office door.

00:26:35.800 | And I said, I want to volunteer to work for you for free

00:26:38.000 | just to see how you live these principles.

00:26:40.400 | And I learned it and I got good at it.

00:26:42.840 | And then one day in college, I was going home with my friend Michael on.

00:26:46.320 | I think it was the F train in New York.

00:26:48.360 | And he started going off on these comic books that he was into.

00:26:52.480 | What superhero he liked, how many of these comic books he had.

00:26:57.120 | And all of that stuff that I couldn't care less about.

00:27:00.960 | I was so bored.

00:27:02.920 | He loved that I was taking an interest in him, and I would ask him questions like,

00:27:06.040 | well, why did you buy that one and how valuable do you think it is?

00:27:08.920 | And he loved it and I hated it.

00:27:10.640 | And what I realized was if this is the epitome of success

00:27:14.200 | in the Dale Carnegie world, I don't want it.

00:27:16.440 | I don't want a life where I'm sucked into conversations

00:27:18.880 | that don't mean anything to me and I'm pained by just so that other people like me.

00:27:22.760 | There has to be a better way.

00:27:24.480 | And what I've learned is I can shift the conversation to what I want it to be

00:27:28.040 | somewhere in the Venn diagram between what this person loves talking about

00:27:31.960 | and what I'm really eager to hear about is an overlap.

00:27:35.040 | And that's where I go.

00:27:36.040 | And so today I would have asked, does your Russian father

00:27:39.600 | have a problem with you reading these comic books because he's so serious

00:27:44.480 | and there's a whole Russian culture of literature that matters more than this?

00:27:48.120 | And I would have gotten into his Russian experience.

00:27:51.320 | I would have today asked him if he was worried that girls weren't into him

00:27:54.960 | because his head was in these stupid comic books all the time

00:27:57.240 | because I was wondering about that.

00:27:59.160 | I would have asked a conversation that related to the comic books,

00:28:01.840 | but also to the thing that I cared about.

00:28:03.760 | And that, I think, is the answer.

00:28:06.120 | How do you do that?

00:28:07.040 | I know you've read a lot of your transcripts to kind of build a muscle of, OK,

00:28:11.040 | how am I doing this? What am I doing right?

00:28:12.560 | You've even probably hired people to review them.

00:28:14.600 | Is there a version of that conversational review

00:28:18.200 | for people not in a professional setting?

00:28:20.040 | Is it recording business meetings, maybe with or without consent

00:28:23.600 | and listening to them?

00:28:24.760 | No, always do it with consent.

00:28:26.760 | There's no reason for us to do it without consent.

00:28:28.880 | But I will tell you how you get consent and then what to do with it.

00:28:32.200 | The way you get consent is to recognize that the other person doesn't care

00:28:35.880 | that you want to study the way that you sell so you can sell to more people

00:28:38.600 | or study the way that you talk so you can talk to more people.

00:28:40.800 | The other person wants to have notes on what they're doing.

00:28:45.920 | So if you're doing a coaching call, can I record this coaching call

00:28:48.600 | so I know what it is that I said to you that's helpful?

00:28:50.800 | But I've coached people on like interviews and other things.

00:28:54.160 | I will say, do you mind if I record this?

00:28:56.880 | Because I found that in the past, people want to see what I've said

00:29:01.000 | and they don't want to waste time writing it down.

00:29:03.160 | This is helpful.

00:29:05.440 | That is 100% useful to do.

00:29:08.040 | So, yes, you can absolutely record with the other person's consent,

00:29:12.400 | but give them the reason, the incentive to have that call recorded.

00:29:16.560 | Salespeople do this all the time.

00:29:18.600 | There is this software that's used.

00:29:20.320 | I'm actually going to interview the founder of it.

00:29:21.920 | What they do is they record salespeople's conversations

00:29:26.520 | so that the salesperson can have an understanding of what she said

00:29:29.880 | that helped close the sale.

00:29:31.320 | And then I will go through and analyze.

00:29:34.080 | The thing is that outside of sales and interviewing,

00:29:37.480 | there just aren't enough people who care about conversations

00:29:40.520 | to do anything with it.

00:29:41.960 | Too many people think conversations are just.

00:29:46.400 | A thing you do instead of a thing you study to do well,

00:29:49.920 | you would never find people who are serious swimmers

00:29:54.040 | just hoping to go in the pool and figure out the way that they're supposed to swim.

00:29:57.880 | You would never find a serious chess player saying, I'm just going to wing

00:30:01.160 | playing chess. They study it, they learn it.

00:30:03.320 | And I think a lot of us go into conversations saying,

00:30:06.000 | I'll just work on it and be better at it instead of studying

00:30:09.400 | the way they played before and then seeing what they could do better.

00:30:12.400 | By the way, that software is called Wingman by Clary now.

00:30:16.480 | So if you go to try wingman.com or salespeople know about this,

00:30:19.320 | I don't need to tell them it will record their calls and then give them feedback on it.

00:30:23.040 | Do you think someone could benefit in a situation

00:30:25.520 | where they don't feel comfortable asking or can't get permission?

00:30:28.280 | Is it debriefing in some particular way right after and taking notes

00:30:33.080 | or collecting feedback from the people you're speaking with?

00:30:35.760 | Now, let's take the job interview example.

00:30:37.360 | I imagine if you said, hey, can I record my interview with you?

00:30:40.200 | I can imagine a lot of companies being like, no, we don't let people record

00:30:43.960 | our job interviews, but it's a skill that I think a lot of people

00:30:46.800 | looking for jobs right now wish that they could review and see how they did.

00:30:51.160 | Is it notes after? Is it asking feedback?

00:30:53.960 | I think that studying it afterwards is a problem.

00:30:57.960 | I mean, without a recording. And here's why.

00:31:01.320 | I had this one interview that I brought back to my coach and I said,

00:31:03.720 | look at this, I'm such a wuss in these calls.

00:31:07.440 | That's what I mean. I said, look, all the people that I admire.

00:31:10.960 | I remember at the time I told him Ramit Sethi is a great blogger.

00:31:14.400 | He keeps talking about how great he is at saving money,

00:31:16.640 | how great he is at handling hot sauce in his mouth.

00:31:18.920 | Like he talks about how great he is.

00:31:20.760 | And that's what people want when they're reading these posts.

00:31:23.280 | They want to see someone who loves themselves enough

00:31:26.120 | to talk about how great they are so that as readers,

00:31:28.920 | as followers of this person, they could want to be that great, too,

00:31:33.120 | and be that happy with themselves.

00:31:35.040 | And what do I do as an interviewer is I talk about the things

00:31:37.680 | that aren't working for me,

00:31:38.800 | how I don't understand how I can systemize my business,

00:31:41.320 | how I don't understand how I can hire better.

00:31:43.920 | I keep talking about my problems and the guest talks about all their wins.

00:31:47.120 | And look at this, I said in the transcript.

00:31:48.960 | And my coach looked at the transcript and he just stopped talking to me.

00:31:52.480 | Oh, this guy thinks that this question is not serious enough

00:31:55.920 | to take a look at or to consider.

00:31:57.480 | He's just kind of off in his own world.

00:31:59.680 | I just sat there feeling more miserable.

00:32:02.160 | And then Jeremy says, Andrew, I think he said something like double

00:32:05.480 | click on my face, which in Google Docs means you could scroll to where

00:32:07.840 | the person is because, look, this is what you're talking about.

00:32:10.000 | Go, yes, look at how I put myself down there by saying what I don't know.

00:32:12.680 | He goes, now look at this double click on my face again.

00:32:14.760 | I double click.

00:32:15.520 | He took me down further in the transcript and he said

00:32:17.520 | she now is being open about her problem with her mom

00:32:22.360 | and how it led her to where she is and to be the kind of person she is.

00:32:25.440 | He said, you are thinking you're going to get vulnerable

00:32:28.600 | and the other person will immediately be vulnerable back.

00:32:31.080 | And when they don't, you feel like you're alone in your weakness

00:32:34.240 | and everybody else is a success.

00:32:35.960 | What you don't realize is you start out with this vulnerability.

00:32:39.160 | The person needs to process it.

00:32:41.600 | And eventually they often feel comfortable sharing.

00:32:44.720 | And look at how it is in black and white.

00:32:46.360 | The reason I'm saying this to you, when we're trying to find non-obvious

00:32:50.000 | wins and losses in our conversations, it's really hard for us

00:32:54.080 | to evaluate ourselves. We just can't do it.

00:32:56.240 | That's why when you see a stand up comic perform, you'll often see

00:33:00.400 | that they're recording themselves because they might think that a joke bomb.

00:33:03.880 | But in reality, there was a hint of a laugh that they didn't realize

00:33:06.640 | because they were feeling vulnerable and insecure about that joke.

00:33:09.280 | They need to see it afterwards, not when they're in performance mode,

00:33:12.880 | but when they're in evaluation mode and performance mode.

00:33:15.600 | You are much harder on yourself in evaluation mode.

00:33:18.440 | You can go much more cerebral.

00:33:20.280 | So coming back to the job interview, I would suggest to you

00:33:23.280 | that there are a lot of people who could say,

00:33:25.480 | I want to record this conversation so that I have notes for how to follow up

00:33:28.800 | on this.

00:33:29.120 | What I've discovered is that you're going to teach me a lot about your company.

00:33:32.000 | And if I start to write it down because I want to learn it,

00:33:35.120 | I'm not going to have it afterwards.

00:33:36.920 | But if I record it and I give both of us notes on it,

00:33:39.200 | I'm going to have something that I could follow up on.

00:33:41.640 | I would suggest to you that something like that is really helpful for people

00:33:45.480 | to say, I'm going to record what we're doing because I found that

00:33:49.160 | a lot of people, when they do interviews with me, aren't aware of

00:33:52.800 | or maybe sometimes I don't express everything right.

00:33:54.960 | And I want to fact check it for you.

00:33:56.440 | So if I have a recording, I can go back and I could look at it.

00:33:58.840 | Give them the wind, tell them why it's important.

00:34:00.960 | And people will be willing to do it.

00:34:02.840 | Now, if that's not an option, I should tell you that

00:34:05.680 | one thing that I've done is I will record my side of the conversation.

00:34:09.360 | I don't need the other person necessarily.

00:34:11.640 | I can just say I'm recording this so that I have my own voice.

00:34:15.840 | And I think that helps. It's not ideal.

00:34:18.280 | I prefer to see both, but I think there's a way to follow up.

00:34:21.240 | So as one, if you're doing that, make it clear

00:34:23.480 | that you're not going to be doing anything with the audio.

00:34:25.280 | You're not going to be sharing the audio publicly, right?

00:34:27.480 | It might seem obvious, but I think that's something to add.

00:34:30.040 | And the other I was thinking, gosh, how would you just record one person?

00:34:33.720 | Then I was just thinking right now, oh, I've headphones on.

00:34:35.920 | If I had my iPhone right now recording in this room.

00:34:38.080 | So if you're doing a zoom call, throw some headphones on.

00:34:41.080 | If you're watching this on the YouTube channel,

00:34:43.280 | you could see that Andrew has headphones on and doesn't look like it.

00:34:45.880 | I have headphones on and look like it.

00:34:47.680 | He's got the better headphones set up here from discreteness.

00:34:50.880 | But I think those are both great.

00:34:53.040 | Chris, there's one other thing that I think is worth noticing.

00:34:55.240 | When I started Mixergy, I was in Southern California,

00:34:58.800 | Santa Monica, even Santa Barbara, that whole little stretch

00:35:02.640 | has venture capitalists.

00:35:05.240 | But the elite venture capitalists were always in San Francisco,

00:35:08.520 | and it was just a short ride away.

00:35:09.640 | So many entrepreneurs go there.

00:35:11.560 | What I noticed having dinner with entrepreneurs is they would often go

00:35:15.920 | and have meetings with the local VCs, the locals who are newer,

00:35:19.920 | less likely to give them money, less likely to be the ones

00:35:23.200 | that they wanted to take money from.

00:35:25.840 | And around the table, when someone would say,

00:35:28.080 | why did you take a meeting with this person instead of going up to San Francisco?

00:35:32.840 | Sometimes the response would be I needed the practice.

00:35:35.680 | I wanted somebody who was going to question me.

00:35:38.280 | I wanted to get my story and they would practice with them.

00:35:41.160 | And the reason I bring this up is because if you're trying to improve

00:35:44.120 | your conversations, if you're trying to improve the way you do job interviews,

00:35:47.200 | you can go out for practice with people who you're not as concerned about.

00:35:50.800 | Maybe there's a third tier job that you are thinking about

00:35:54.000 | or you would never even consider.

00:35:55.560 | Go take the interview and then try some of the techniques that I'm suggesting.

00:35:58.880 | Try some of the conversation techniques.

00:36:00.880 | Try to ask them to record.

00:36:02.440 | Get comfortable with it.

00:36:03.720 | You're in some ways going to feel superior.

00:36:05.600 | And you'll say in yourself, I deserve to be able to record this.

00:36:08.600 | Of course, this makes sense.

00:36:09.600 | I'm going to record it so I can follow up with them.

00:36:11.280 | And then you'll feel better about it.

00:36:12.360 | Once you do it there, you're going to feel better about doing it somewhere else.

00:36:14.800 | So I think that's a huge, huge win.

00:36:17.800 | It kind of makes me want to go to a networking event for something

00:36:20.080 | that I have no professional designations for.

00:36:22.800 | Like, let's go to the veterinary networking event in the Bay Area

00:36:25.360 | and just go talk to people in a totally different industry.

00:36:27.720 | Obviously, I won't be the expert.

00:36:29.560 | I got to go find out where they are.

00:36:30.960 | Getting the crew together isn't as easy as it used to be.

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00:37:37.920 | That's D-R-I-Z-L-Y.com today.

00:37:41.840 | Must be 21 plus, not available in all locations.

00:37:47.080 | I just want to thank you quick for listening to and supporting the show.

00:37:50.440 | Your support is what keeps this show going.

00:37:53.320 | To get all of the URLs, codes, deals and discounts from our partners,

00:37:58.040 | you can go to allthehacks.com/deals.

00:38:01.240 | So please consider supporting those who support us.

00:38:04.640 | If we rewind, you were talking about vulnerability,

00:38:07.480 | but I don't think you unlocked why it can be so valuable.

00:38:11.600 | So I'm going to give you a little bit of your vulnerability

00:38:13.920 | can be an awesome skill in conversations, because I'll let you finish that.

00:38:18.840 | First of all, I think we get a benefit in talking about it

00:38:22.080 | to see that it's OK to say that

00:38:24.520 | my family had some mental health issues or someone in our family did

00:38:29.400 | and how it just really wrecked the family to know that somebody is going through that.

00:38:32.920 | That's a share that you can see my voice is still not.

00:38:36.600 | You can still hear my voice, how I'm not fully comfortable talking about it, but

00:38:43.040 | by sharing it, by talking about it,

00:38:44.520 | I release some of the pain that I have around it.

00:38:46.640 | I also connect with other people who are having it.

00:38:48.760 | And then it gives the other person an opportunity to say, oh, it's safe

00:38:52.560 | to say this, to talk about their suicide attempt in their family,

00:38:57.040 | their mental health issues.

00:38:59.280 | So I think if we really want to get to know the other person,

00:39:02.080 | we have to show them some of ours. Otherwise, people won't do it.

00:39:04.600 | They'll feel like you're taking advantage of them.

00:39:07.720 | I talk a lot about money on the show,

00:39:09.360 | and I find that money is one of those places where people are very guarded.

00:39:13.000 | People don't talk about it.

00:39:13.960 | And so I often just open up and just say, oh, here's how much we spent on this thing

00:39:17.960 | or here's this situation, and that helps.

00:39:20.520 | Another tactic that I picked up from you was

00:39:24.400 | asking them permission to ask them the uncomfortable question.

00:39:27.760 | Yeah, I think the way you frame in the book and tell me if I'm correct.

00:39:31.240 | Is it OK if I ask you, which is two questions in one?

00:39:34.200 | And people will answer the easiest of the two questions.

00:39:39.320 | Whenever there are two questions,

00:39:40.600 | they will immediately go and take the easy answer.

00:39:43.120 | So is it OK if I ask you if you and your wife are still married?

00:39:46.720 | If they don't feel comfortable saying that they're not married,

00:39:50.520 | they'll say, no, it's not OK or no, I don't feel comfortable talking about it.

00:39:53.400 | You just ask them that question. Is it OK if I ask you?

00:39:56.120 | Is it OK if I ask you what your revenue is?

00:39:59.040 | Do you feel comfortable revealing your revenue?

00:40:00.720 | Those types of things are giving the other person an opportunity

00:40:03.800 | to take a graceful exit.

00:40:06.000 | And I've seen this used by other interviewers,

00:40:09.240 | and I have transcripts of myself using it.

00:40:11.400 | And you will see that people will reveal things that you didn't expect

00:40:15.480 | because you've created that environment where they get to choose

00:40:18.000 | whether they answer or not.

00:40:19.440 | And you'll also, if you see my transcript, see that some people will say,

00:40:22.400 | no, I don't feel comfortable answering that.

00:40:24.680 | I'll ask, do you feel comfortable talking about your revenue?

00:40:27.240 | And they'll say, no, I don't feel comfortable talking about that.

00:40:29.440 | And we can move on.

00:40:30.200 | And there isn't that awkwardness in the middle.

00:40:32.920 | So I did this mistakenly on an episode that will have by the time

00:40:36.880 | this airs already come out, where I was asking Adam Levin,

00:40:40.560 | who runs a podcast called What the Hack, and it's all about cybersecurity

00:40:44.160 | and fraud and identity theft.

00:40:45.760 | I wanted specific recommendations for places to go to monitor

00:40:49.680 | your identity and credit because there's just so many sites.

00:40:52.080 | I didn't trust him.

00:40:52.680 | And at first answer, I asked him and he said,

00:40:55.240 | I don't like to give recommendations.

00:40:56.720 | And then later in the conversation, I said something like, OK, well, then.

00:41:01.640 | Who should we avoid?

00:41:03.360 | Like, if you don't want to tell me who to pick, who should we avoid?

00:41:06.000 | And that broke him down.

00:41:07.840 | And he said, you know what?

00:41:09.240 | I said, I don't like to do this, but these three guys are really good.

00:41:13.200 | You should check these out.

00:41:14.200 | So I'm curious if I had said, is it OK if I ask you

00:41:18.160 | to recommend a few companies that you think are really good?

00:41:21.040 | His answer would have been no.

00:41:22.720 | Eventually, I found out that he was willing to share more.

00:41:25.720 | Are there any ways to get a sense of whether you've gotten someone to open up

00:41:29.960 | and revisit something that you thought might have been

00:41:32.200 | they weren't willing to share, but might be now?

00:41:35.360 | The thing that I think about when you say that is I would write that down.

00:41:39.440 | I would analyze why that question worked, write it down and then try it again.

00:41:43.160 | And then if it works, add it to the repertoire.

00:41:45.640 | I think that's an interesting approach.

00:41:48.080 | You've asked him a tough question.

00:41:49.840 | He didn't answer it.

00:41:50.720 | And then you ask him an even tougher question.

00:41:53.000 | And suddenly the first one seems easy.

00:41:55.240 | And so he might come in.

00:41:56.400 | That might be why it works.

00:41:57.800 | I would try it in conversations in private to see if that worked.

00:42:01.400 | And if it didn't, then I discarded.

00:42:03.600 | If it does, it goes on to a Google talk for me.

00:42:06.320 | And that's what I use.

00:42:07.720 | I think that's important to analyze.

00:42:09.720 | You're asking me if there are other ways to get at it.

00:42:11.760 | I think that one way to get at it is to say, I don't need the exact.

00:42:16.080 | I need a ballpark.

00:42:17.720 | So if I try to ask someone what their revenue is and they don't feel comfortable,

00:42:20.640 | I say you feel comfortable giving me a ballpark.

00:42:22.800 | Like, is it millions is tens of millions is a thousand.

00:42:25.520 | OK, sometimes people will say, OK, I feel comfortable with the ballpark.

00:42:28.040 | I just don't want you to get the exact number.

00:42:29.520 | Great. Sometimes I hit him with the dramatic low ball.

00:42:32.080 | If in your situation, my approach might have been to say

00:42:35.360 | if I asked him which three companies I should work with and he didn't give me

00:42:38.440 | the answer, my way would have been to suggest a really bad one.

00:42:42.440 | Oh, you want to get.

00:42:44.320 | And then I give him some clearly bad example and have him go, No, are you kidding me?

00:42:48.200 | That's absolutely the worst company.

00:42:49.480 | If you want someone, just go at least use this other company.

00:42:51.880 | And then that approach would work.

00:42:54.280 | So there are a few different ways.

00:42:55.840 | But I think the bigger point here is you've just discovered

00:42:58.880 | a new approach to asking question, and I would keep an eye on that

00:43:02.960 | and see if you can use it multiple times.

00:43:05.440 | And that's the way that I added to my repertoire.

00:43:07.760 | This whole book was written on me

00:43:09.120 | discovering these ways of asking questions that worked and then writing them down.

00:43:13.000 | I would always give them a name.

00:43:14.000 | I would write them down

00:43:14.760 | and then I would copy out of the transcript why they worked.

00:43:16.720 | I have another one I'll add to my repertoire.

00:43:19.320 | I'm not going to share it now.

00:43:20.280 | I got to go test it first.

00:43:21.640 | So if you're listening, maybe you'll hear me bring it up some more.

00:43:23.840 | We talked a lot about the questions you ask, the questions you don't ask,

00:43:26.560 | the ways you interrupt.

00:43:28.000 | What about at the end?

00:43:29.000 | Is there anything about how you build a relationship

00:43:31.480 | and then follow up on that relationship, whether it's wrapping up

00:43:34.880 | the conversation or following up after that you think has helped?

00:43:37.440 | Oh, Chris, I've been so bad at that.

00:43:40.080 | Like, I will meet these amazing people, have phenomenal conversations,

00:43:44.240 | and then I won't do anything about it.

00:43:46.080 | And then we're gone from each other's lives after the person loves me.

00:43:49.080 | Or at least we connected.

00:43:51.760 | I love chess.com.

00:43:53.000 | I am on it all the time.

00:43:54.000 | I keep analyzing my chess game.

00:43:55.200 | I interviewed the founder of chess.com.

00:43:56.720 | We hit it off.

00:43:57.240 | He was texting me questions like, can we buy an ad on your podcast?

00:44:00.640 | I said, I'm sorry, I've run out of space.

00:44:02.400 | Anyway, when we were into that kind of a thing,

00:44:05.040 | we chatted and then the whole thing disappeared.

00:44:07.840 | I happen to be in therapy recently.

00:44:10.840 | And one of the things that I uncovered was that I am not a great

00:44:15.560 | stay in touch with someone person,

00:44:18.520 | like even the people that I work with, my producer, Ari Dusermo,

00:44:22.960 | we worked together for a decade, I think somewhere around there.

00:44:26.120 | And I won't just say, here's what I'm up to or check in

00:44:29.760 | and see how is it going with the kids or anything like that.

00:44:32.960 | And he said, Andrew, people want to hear from you.

00:44:35.240 | They don't.

00:44:35.600 | I said, all right, I'm going to try it because I want to hear from you.

00:44:38.400 | I go, OK, I'm going to try it.

00:44:39.320 | You're my therapist.

00:44:40.000 | You're saying I should hear from you.

00:44:41.000 | I have your number because we do this on FaceTime.

00:44:43.080 | And when I discovered something like how to drive a lawnmower here in Austin,

00:44:47.120 | I've never mowed a lawn before I moved to Austin.

00:44:49.160 | I've always been a city person.

00:44:50.320 | So I discovered how to drive a driving lawnmower and how to change a blade.

00:44:53.480 | I sent him a picture.

00:44:54.440 | I saw that he got excited about it, and I kind of like that touch point.

00:44:56.880 | So then I started doing that with other people.

00:44:58.840 | I would just send them a picture of the thing that I've learned to do.

00:45:01.560 | And it might be some random thing like, hey, I just got this guitar

00:45:04.200 | that I've been traveling to Europe with. It's kind of fun.

00:45:06.320 | What are you up to, by the way?

00:45:07.840 | And these little experiences that I'm sending in just a picture, nothing more.

00:45:11.480 | They're super personal and they're an easy way to connect.

00:45:14.920 | And I wish I'd done it more.

00:45:17.440 | And so if I were to answer your question, honestly, it would be

00:45:20.760 | I sucked at it for years.

00:45:22.640 | I'm getting better at it.

00:45:23.880 | And my solution is to not try to find more work related things to say to someone,

00:45:27.720 | but to instead just find a few personal things and share it with them.

00:45:32.400 | And one of the producers at Mixergy that I've had, like the first one,

00:45:36.400 | Jeremy Weiss, is amazing with it.

00:45:38.800 | He will send me holiday text messages.

00:45:41.680 | He'll send me random text messages about the date night he had with his wife.

00:45:45.800 | And at times it feels, oh, I don't care about where you and your wife went,

00:45:49.120 | but never bothered by it because we're staying in each other's lives

00:45:53.560 | and it's incredibly effective.

00:45:55.120 | So that's the one thing that I've learned to do.

00:45:57.520 | And if I were to just add one other thing that's a little less harsh on myself,

00:46:03.360 | but recognizing one thing that I randomly have done that works is.

00:46:07.240 | I still have the same email inbox from forever,

00:46:11.440 | and if I've ever interviewed somebody, our initial conversation is in that inbox.

00:46:16.080 | So the founder of Dropbox, I have the first message where he said,

00:46:19.600 | yeah, I'll do the interview with you, Airbnb, and then other people

00:46:22.760 | who you may not know, but who matter to me.

00:46:25.080 | If I need to reach out to them, I hit reply on that old message.

00:46:28.200 | It gives them a sense of who we are and then it's easier to reconnect.

00:46:32.520 | I'm not just somebody who needs something from you now.

00:46:34.800 | I've connected with you.

00:46:35.760 | I've helped you before through this podcast.

00:46:37.680 | Now I'm checking in or asking for something.

00:46:40.360 | Yeah, I don't know if you know Nick Gray, who's a fellow Austin local,

00:46:43.840 | but he creates a friend's newsletter, which I've done in the past,

00:46:46.840 | which is like a scalable version of your lawnmower example,

00:46:49.960 | which is, you know, he sends an email out.

00:46:51.560 | I think now it's weekly, but you could do it once a month.

00:46:53.720 | It's just, hey, here's what's up in my life.

00:46:55.400 | And I've actually noticed that the All The Hacks newsletter

00:46:58.680 | that I ship out every month just last week, someone who I went to college

00:47:02.680 | with and haven't talked to in forever, but because I merged it

00:47:06.240 | from an email list I had before, wrote back and said, oh, my gosh,

00:47:09.560 | I've been staying in touch with you for all this long.

00:47:11.400 | This is what I'm up to.

00:47:12.160 | And it kind of brought us back together.

00:47:13.720 | I would have never thought to text that person a picture of something,

00:47:16.560 | but to put them on an email that I send to everyone I did do.

00:47:19.240 | And it worked.

00:47:19.840 | So I said at the beginning, I wasn't going to spend too much time

00:47:21.880 | focused on just professional interviewing and all of that,

00:47:24.400 | because most people listening, this is not a podcast for podcasters.

00:47:28.000 | But I know the listeners of this show have a pretty vested interest

00:47:31.920 | in the continuing evolution of this show.

00:47:34.040 | So I am curious to get your take on a few things.

00:47:36.760 | You've done over 2000 episodes and built a pretty big community around it.

00:47:40.600 | How do you engage your listeners or advice for me to engage people

00:47:44.720 | listening today in the process of finding, recruiting and preparing for guests

00:47:49.240 | and kind of make it something that more people are involved in

00:47:51.960 | than just me and then publishing?

00:47:53.640 | I think podcasting is such a one way experience in many ways.

00:47:56.680 | You can maybe get an email or review, but I feel like there's more opportunity there.

00:48:00.760 | I was just at a conference that Nathan Lotka put on.

00:48:05.200 | He asked me to go and introduce a speaker,

00:48:07.160 | and then he introduced me before I introduced the speaker.

00:48:10.080 | And he said, Andrew once gave his cell phone number out on his podcast.

00:48:14.320 | I said, there's no way that's really Andrew's number.

00:48:16.800 | So I called it because I called it and it was Andrew.

00:48:20.160 | And he picked up and I was in college and we talked.

00:48:22.240 | And I said, that is an amazing thing that he would actually do it.

00:48:25.920 | And he said, we've stayed in touch since then.

00:48:29.200 | And it's been about 10 years now.

00:48:32.520 | And the reason that I say that is I think we think a lot about

00:48:36.760 | how do we talk and engage our whole audience en masse.

00:48:40.320 | And what I've discovered is that if we could just talk to them one on one,

00:48:45.080 | that's where the real value is.

00:48:47.720 | The big thing I wouldn't get rid of if I absolutely need the broad reach.

00:48:51.480 | But the more one on one that I could do, the better without killing myself,

00:48:56.840 | the more in person that I can do, or I spend time with you in the same room

00:49:01.000 | and we have a personal conversation, the better.

00:49:03.280 | So scotch night was a good way to make my cell phone available.

00:49:07.200 | It was a good way to say, here's my email address and anyone can reach out to me

00:49:11.800 | and then respond to people is a good way of reaching out to them.

00:49:15.360 | The problem people come up with is what if too many people reach out to me?

00:49:18.520 | And that's a definite problem.

00:49:19.760 | And I've run into that over the years.

00:49:22.640 | But if you care about the people you're reaching, it's worth it.

00:49:27.320 | And if you don't, then you have a real problem.

00:49:29.240 | Like I could never be some of these YouTube stars

00:49:31.720 | who are writing about how to use, I don't know, just any random thing.

00:49:37.880 | I need to care about the people who are out there enough

00:49:40.680 | that I would want to spend time with them,

00:49:42.400 | not enough to just make a profit off of them.

00:49:44.560 | And once I do that, then I want them to reach out to me.

00:49:47.040 | I may not give my cell phone out anymore,

00:49:49.160 | but I'll get my email address out and respond.

00:49:51.040 | And if I see someone on the street, I'll stop and we'll say hi.

00:49:53.760 | And I think that's the best answer to reach an audience

00:49:56.280 | you genuinely care about and not just one that you need more of

00:49:59.920 | and be as open to personal one on one conversations

00:50:04.200 | and in-person meetings as you possibly can.

00:50:06.320 | Yeah, I think anyone listening who's emailed me

00:50:08.720 | knows that I would like to assume that all of them have gotten a reply.

00:50:12.360 | And as the show grows, maybe that reply is taken longer.

00:50:15.880 | But often it starts with a question.

00:50:18.160 | And then sometimes I follow up with a conversation

00:50:20.320 | trying to understand what do you think of the show?

00:50:22.120 | What direction would you want to take it?

00:50:24.000 | So keep those emails coming.

00:50:25.600 | Even if you don't have a question, feel free to reach out and let me know

00:50:29.400 | what you think about the show, where it should go, other things like that.

00:50:32.280 | I'm always looking to improve and adapt.

00:50:34.080 | Can I add to that and say,

00:50:36.440 | I think it's important that people also take that part of it,

00:50:39.800 | that we keep talking about how we, if we get inbound, respond,

00:50:42.560 | we should be responding to as many people as possible.

00:50:44.640 | I think people should also send out as many messages as possible.

00:50:49.080 | There's this entrepreneur who I've invested in, Matt.

00:50:52.960 | Matt reached out to the real founder of Netflix, Mark Randolph,

00:50:57.400 | and he got a frickin response back and then Mark Randolph became his advisor.

00:51:02.320 | And then in the book that talks about the story

00:51:04.400 | of how Netflix was really founded by Mark Randolph,

00:51:06.640 | there's a reference to Matt in the frickin book.

00:51:09.240 | And then I asked Mark Randolph, the founder of Netflix, I said,

00:51:12.600 | is Matt Morales really like how do you connect with him?

00:51:16.360 | Is he someone who you really are advising over the years?

00:51:18.920 | He said, yeah, he just reached out to me and I care about entrepreneurs.

00:51:21.400 | I responded back to him.

00:51:22.440 | And in fact, I invested in his latest business, Oasis, and he's a good person.

00:51:26.120 | I go from one frickin email out of the blue.

00:51:28.600 | I think I think people are too intimidated to reach out.

00:51:31.840 | And it's a problem.

00:51:33.240 | We should also be reaching out to strangers whose work we like on the Internet

00:51:37.200 | and tell them why we like it, because they're trying to establish

00:51:40.840 | a relationship with their audience, too, and with people they care about.

00:51:44.160 | I found that from the case of reaching out to people who I just sent you a DM

00:51:49.400 | and said, hey, like your work, can we have this conversation?

00:51:52.160 | I've sent those DMs to other people.

00:51:54.120 | Some of them say no. Some of them say yes.

00:51:56.000 | I found recruiting people to come on the show,

00:51:58.400 | trying to get interesting people to talk to.

00:52:00.760 | Half the time, it's just a numbers game, right?

00:52:03.480 | You just have to send out enough messages that you can get someone

00:52:06.040 | on the time that they're looking at their email on the week.

00:52:08.640 | They're not too busy.

00:52:09.520 | And I think people should also be just trying more to get in front of people.

00:52:12.520 | Dude, also, a no is good.

00:52:14.560 | A no is good. You've stayed in touch with them.

00:52:17.080 | I started Mixergy by organizing events.

00:52:19.280 | I would go and invite people to an event who wouldn't show up.

00:52:22.640 | But nobody said that jerk Andrew invited me to an event.

00:52:26.200 | Instead, they go, oh, that's a guy who invited me to an event.

00:52:28.600 | I better stay nice with him, because maybe the next time he invites me,

00:52:31.360 | it'll be to an event that I care about.

00:52:33.280 | If you invite someone to do an interview, there's nobody who goes that jerk

00:52:37.000 | Chris invited me to do a podcast interview.

00:52:39.760 | He cares about me.

00:52:41.560 | No, just inviting people, even if they say no.

00:52:44.320 | It's a sincere way of saying I care about you.

00:52:47.160 | I'm here reaching out to you before I really even need something.

00:52:50.520 | I'm inviting you to do this thing to get exposure for your book.

00:52:53.120 | In this case, to get exposure for your business.

00:52:55.600 | In the case of me asking somebody to do an interview with me,

00:52:58.240 | it's never a loss to just invite somebody.

00:53:01.960 | And you talk about Nick Gray.

00:53:02.960 | He's organizing events all over Austin.

00:53:05.160 | He's constantly inviting people and people can't make it out.

00:53:08.000 | But he's got this reputation now for inviting people to events

00:53:11.040 | that creates a warm feeling, the frickin guy.

00:53:13.440 | I moved to Austin.

00:53:14.600 | He invites me to go paddleboarding.

00:53:16.280 | Now that I think about it,

00:53:17.120 | I must have done stand up paddleboarding with him.

00:53:18.800 | That was my first time.

00:53:19.960 | He invites me out stand up paddleboarding while we're there.

00:53:22.520 | He goes, You know, Andrew,

00:53:23.720 | if you and your wife want to just go and experience Austin,

00:53:26.640 | there's nothing like a paddleboard together.

00:53:28.720 | Just come on over, borrow my stand up paddleboard and you and Olivia can go out.

00:53:31.920 | You'll love it.

00:53:32.920 | I've never taken him up on it because with paddleboards costing what?

00:53:36.800 | Two hundred fifty bucks.

00:53:37.640 | I don't need to use his for free and then worry about damaging it.

00:53:41.280 | But dude, the fact that he invited me to use it

00:53:43.880 | make me feel that he is a caring person

00:53:46.840 | who is offering me something that's that's that personal.

00:53:50.960 | Never a bad idea to invite people.

00:53:52.960 | OK, I'm actually going to interrupt and add something

00:53:57.200 | that I didn't include in the interview after we stopped rolling.

00:54:00.480 | Andrew suggested that I share some of the ways you all could help out with the show.

00:54:04.640 | So I'm briefly going to do that.

00:54:06.320 | The first thing is suggesting and helping me recruit guests.

00:54:10.320 | Many of you have sent names in, so please keep those ideas coming.

00:54:13.720 | It is so helpful.

00:54:15.240 | But where I could really use your help is trying to get ahold

00:54:17.880 | of some specific people that I'd love to have on the show.

00:54:20.680 | So if you happen to know them, that's incredible.

00:54:23.560 | But even if not, if you want to tag them and me on Twitter

00:54:27.120 | or other social media or email them through their contact page

00:54:30.920 | and tell them you love the show and would love to see them on as a guest,

00:54:34.080 | it would be so helpful.

00:54:36.040 | I'll put the list and links to each of them in the show notes.

00:54:39.200 | But my top dozen people I would love to get in touch with are Bill Perkins,

00:54:44.280 | author of Die With Zero, to talk about getting the most out of your money.

00:54:47.840 | Ray Dalio to talk about his principles for life and work.

00:54:51.280 | Matt Walker to talk about sleep.

00:54:53.840 | Jim Quick to talk about brain hacks.

00:54:56.360 | My favorite parenting author, Emily Oster, to talk about having and raising kids.

00:55:01.440 | David Sinclair to talk about health and longevity.

00:55:04.520 | Ryan Holiday to talk about stoicism.

00:55:07.520 | Sam Harris to talk about meditation.

00:55:09.840 | Jay Shetty to talk about thinking like a monk.

00:55:12.600 | James Clear to talk about habits.

00:55:15.280 | Simon Sinek to talk leadership.

00:55:17.840 | Brené Brown to talk courage, vulnerability and more.

00:55:21.040 | And Tony Robbins to talk performance, psychology and money.

00:55:24.760 | So that's actually 13.

00:55:26.480 | But feel free to add anyone to the list that you think I missed.

00:55:29.640 | And as long as we're here, I might as well swing for the fences

00:55:32.360 | and see if anyone's connected to Michelle or Barack Obama,

00:55:34.960 | because I would love to have them on as well.

00:55:37.120 | So thank you all in advance.

00:55:39.160 | I'm going to find something cool to do for anyone who can help make these happen.

00:55:43.160 | And it won't just be a sticker or something, though.

00:55:45.680 | To be clear, it's also not going to be a vacation.

00:55:47.800 | So somewhere in between.

00:55:49.480 | OK, that's guess I'll keep my other two asks very brief.

00:55:52.960 | First, I have a bunch of video from the YouTube videos of the podcast.

00:55:57.040 | And I would love to find someone who knows what they're doing

00:55:59.520 | when it comes to cutting and clips, overlaying graphics and more.

00:56:02.720 | So I can put those videos out on IG Reels, Tick-Tock and YouTube shorts.

00:56:07.040 | And finally, I would love to find someone really adept with CSS

00:56:10.920 | to help me spruce up the All The Hacks website.

00:56:13.040 | And just to be clear, both of those projects would be paid projects.

00:56:16.640 | OK, thank you so much for supporting me in the show.

00:56:19.760 | Let's get back to wrap up my conversation with Andrew.

00:56:22.600 | OK, this has been fantastic.

00:56:25.120 | I feel like I have a lot of homework

00:56:26.920 | so that the next time I'm interviewing someone, I'm doing a better job.

00:56:30.360 | I'm asking the right questions.

00:56:31.600 | I'm pausing, I'm interrupting and everything.

00:56:33.240 | So thank you.

00:56:34.040 | Hopefully everyone listening will thank you as the quality of the show goes up

00:56:38.080 | and the quality of my skills do.

00:56:39.920 | I'm excited to engage with the audience more.

00:56:41.800 | So if you're listening, reach out anytime.

00:56:44.120 | Andrew, where can people find out what you're up to and everything you're working on?

00:56:48.800 | If you Google me, I'm totally Googleable.

00:56:51.080 | Sorry to every other Andrew Warner on the planet, but I got there first.

00:56:54.240 | Number two, the podcast, if they're curious about how I do my interviews,

00:56:58.600 | it's called Mixergy and the book Stop Asking Questions available at libraries and bookstores.

00:57:03.440 | Oh, I've never heard the plug for libraries, so I appreciate that.

00:57:06.960 | Everyone that listening knows library extension to take advantage of their library as well.

00:57:10.640 | So, oh, dude, Chris, Libby app is amazing for that.

00:57:14.320 | There's so many books that I would never think to buy.

00:57:16.880 | Wouldn't even think to get the chapter to download.

00:57:19.640 | Then I use the Libby app and I get the book directly sent to my Kindle

00:57:23.720 | and then the audio book directly on my phone to listen to.

00:57:26.960 | And now because it's just you don't think about the price,

00:57:30.000 | you're just kind of experimenting.

00:57:31.880 | I might take a few and start reading books that I never would have before.

00:57:35.560 | You know about library extension?

00:57:37.120 | No, what's library extension?

00:57:38.320 | I thought that was for everyone listening to me.

00:57:40.160 | Library extension.

00:57:40.920 | So Libby is like 30% of library extension, but library extension is a Chrome extension

00:57:46.240 | that when you're on Amazon looking at a book, it just pops up and says,

00:57:49.560 | hey, you can get this at any of these local libraries.

00:57:51.960 | And if you live in a metro area or I have my San Francisco library card

00:57:56.480 | and I've got my Berlin game library card and in order to join

00:57:59.960 | Stanford Federal Credit Union, I had to join the Friends of the Palo Alto Library.

00:58:03.240 | So like I have a couple of library memberships

00:58:04.920 | and it just searches all of them from any Amazon page for a book.

00:58:08.880 | Oh, that's great.

00:58:09.800 | There's a little hack for everyone on the way out.

00:58:11.880 | Andrew, thank you so much for being here.

00:58:14.040 | Thanks, Chris.

00:58:14.640 | I really hope you enjoyed this episode.

00:58:18.200 | Thank you so much for listening.

00:58:19.960 | If you haven't already left a rating and a review for the show

00:58:22.800 | in Apple Podcasts or Spotify, I would really appreciate it.

00:58:26.560 | And if you have any feedback on the show, questions for me or just want to say hi,

00:58:30.240 | I'm Chris at AllTheHacks.com or @Hutchins on Twitter.

00:58:34.400 | That's it for this week. I'll see you next week.

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