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00:01:34.600 | Hello, and welcome to another episode of All The Hacks, a show about upgrading

00:01:42.840 | your life, money, and travel all while spending less and saving more.

00:01:46.520 | I'm your host, Chris Hutchins, and I am excited to have you joining us today for

00:01:50.800 | a conversation about dating, love, relationships, and more.

00:01:54.240 | If you're thinking, "Well, I'm happily married.

00:01:56.640 | Maybe this isn't for me."

00:01:58.000 | Well, I really hope that's not the case because I am also happily married and I'm

00:02:01.960 | incredibly excited to talk to our guest, Logan Urie.

00:02:04.760 | Logan is a behavioral scientist turned dating coach and the author of the

00:02:09.000 | fantastic book, How to Not Die Alone.

00:02:11.640 | She is also the Director of Relationship Science at the dating app, Hinge, where

00:02:16.320 | she leads a research team dedicated to helping people find love.

00:02:19.520 | Before that, she ran Google's behavioral science team, the Irrational Lab.

00:02:23.600 | Her works appeared in The New York Times, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, and so

00:02:27.720 | many more places.

00:02:28.600 | While I might not be looking for love anymore, I'm so fascinated about everything

00:02:33.200 | she's learned from her research, especially because it seems like the internet has

00:02:36.640 | changed the dating landscape so much since I was in the game.

00:02:39.360 | I'm also curious to hear everything she's learned about building long-lasting

00:02:43.000 | relationships and everything she's learned about how dating might apply to other

00:02:46.800 | areas of life.

00:02:47.640 | Oh, and of course, I'm excited to learn what I might be able to share with a few

00:02:52.880 | of the friends of mine who are still on the hunt for their future spouse.

00:02:56.160 | So I hope you'll enjoy this conversation with Logan Urie.

00:02:58.920 | Let's jump in.

00:03:00.000 | Logan, thank you for being here.

00:03:04.960 | Hi, Chris.

00:03:06.200 | I'm really excited to join you.

00:03:07.560 | So the book is How to Not Die Alone, which is a really bold statement and one that I

00:03:12.320 | think speaks to a lot of people.

00:03:13.480 | Can you talk about coming up with the title, what it means and and why that's

00:03:17.120 | something that's really important to people?

00:03:18.560 | Yeah.

00:03:19.040 | So the whole frame of my book is how can you apply behavioral science to decisions

00:03:24.800 | around dating and relationships?

00:03:26.680 | And so a lot of us have these cognitive biases or these blind spots that fuel

00:03:32.520 | faulty decision making.

00:03:33.840 | And so a big one that I'm sure you're familiar with is loss aversion, right?

00:03:37.920 | We have this huge urge to avoid loss at any cost.

00:03:42.000 | And so what I wanted to do with the title, How to Not Die Alone, is really put you

00:03:47.440 | in this mindset of, oh, I could die alone.

00:03:50.120 | And that's something that I really want to avoid.

00:03:52.440 | And so I've absolutely heard the negative feedback, right?

00:03:55.200 | Therapists write me and they're like, I love your book, but it's hard to recommend

00:03:58.640 | because my patients are going to be offended by the title.

00:04:01.880 | But you know what?

00:04:02.840 | It's memorable and it really gets to the truth of the matter, which is if you're on

00:04:07.080 | a path towards dying alone and you don't want to be, read this book and let's do

00:04:12.600 | something about it.

00:04:13.360 | Yeah.

00:04:14.200 | Are people better off being with partners in their lives?

00:04:17.080 | Is there data to support that?

00:04:19.280 | Yeah, so I absolutely understand that there are people who are single and love it and

00:04:23.720 | more power to them.

00:04:24.800 | But many people want to find a partner and people who are single and have been looking,

00:04:30.200 | let's say, for a decade are very frustrated by not being able to find someone.

00:04:34.560 | And there is a lot of research around how being in a relationship can help you earn

00:04:40.640 | more money, be happier, be healthier, live longer.

00:04:44.440 | And those results are especially true for men who are in relationships.

00:04:48.800 | What what led you to jump into this field?

00:04:51.000 | It's it's not a title that I think most people have.

00:04:53.880 | It's not an area most people dig into.

00:04:55.560 | I've always been interested in love and dating and relationships, which I imagine

00:05:00.800 | many people are, right, like that is the core of most Sunday brunch conversations is

00:05:05.040 | talking about dating or complaining about your relationship.

00:05:07.760 | I also have this interest in psychology and how people make decisions.

00:05:12.440 | So let's see, around seven or eight years ago, when I was working at Google, leading

00:05:19.160 | this behavioral science team, I was also single and I was also using Tinder and other

00:05:24.440 | dating apps. And I was working at Google and I was like, OK, these are some of the

00:05:27.840 | smartest people in the world.

00:05:28.960 | These are the wizards who created the Internet.

00:05:31.280 | And we all seem to be struggling with dating.

00:05:33.400 | What's going on here?

00:05:34.880 | And so I was able to combine these two interests, how people make decisions and sex,

00:05:40.800 | dating and relationships, and combine them to really forge my own career and my own

00:05:46.560 | direction, bridging the two.

00:05:49.560 | And so what I've been doing since then is finding ways to say, all right, people are

00:05:53.320 | unhappy. They're not finding the relationships they want.

00:05:56.080 | In many ways, it's because of these cognitive biases or blind spots.

00:05:59.720 | How can I break dating down into a series of micro decisions and help you make better

00:06:05.240 | choices along the way?

00:06:07.280 | Yeah, that makes so much sense.

00:06:08.520 | And this has to be a problem that's existed forever, right?

00:06:12.440 | Is this kind of the oldest problem people have faced?

00:06:15.720 | And how has it evolved?

00:06:16.720 | Yeah, great question. So dating is actually a relatively new phenomenon, according to

00:06:23.600 | the book Labor of Love by Maura Weigel, which is a great book on the history of dating.

00:06:28.320 | Dating, as we think about it now, didn't really emerge on the scene until around 1890.

00:06:34.960 | And so what happened before then was, depending on your social status in life, you

00:06:40.120 | might have an arranged marriage, right, with the prince of Sweden, or maybe just your

00:06:44.440 | father would negotiate with the person whose land touched the land next to next to his,

00:06:50.480 | right, the person with the parcel of land next to his.

00:06:53.600 | And they would negotiate your hand in marriage for, let's say, 12 camels or a certain

00:06:58.280 | amount of rice. And so for a long time, you were not in charge of finding your long term

00:07:04.040 | partner. This was something that your community, your family, a matchmaker did for you.

00:07:09.080 | And so one of the big themes that we see in modern dating is that it feels like it's just

00:07:15.440 | up to us. And that can be very hard because, yes, we have more freedom to find someone.

00:07:20.080 | But it also means that if we fail, the failure is completely on our shoulders.

00:07:24.840 | Yeah, I took a psychology of sex and relationships class in college, and we actually

00:07:30.680 | talked a bit about arranged marriages.

00:07:32.400 | And there are cultures where that's still a thing.

00:07:34.400 | What do you think of keeping that kind of pre 1890 tradition?

00:07:38.200 | Is that a process that works well?

00:07:40.480 | Is that something you address at all in the book?

00:07:42.280 | So the research on arranged marriage shows that arranged marriages start less happy than

00:07:49.120 | what's called love marriages or non-arranged marriages.

00:07:52.320 | But after the four year mark, they actually overlap love marriages in terms of happiness.

00:07:59.200 | So you start off in a lower place, but then over time you grow to love this person.

00:08:04.320 | And so what's really interesting is we can't have an experiment where we assign this

00:08:09.720 | person an arranged marriage and this person a love marriage.

00:08:12.400 | Right. There's obviously a lot of cultural reasons why this happens.

00:08:15.600 | If you're in a culture where divorce is not really an option, then when you get into that

00:08:20.280 | marriage, your mindset isn't I'm going to stay until I'm no longer happy.

00:08:23.960 | It's this is forever.

00:08:25.960 | And so I'm going to find a way to make it work.

00:08:28.240 | And so there's something psychologically in that commitment where you say to yourself,

00:08:33.360 | this is what the rest of my life looks like.

00:08:35.440 | So I'm going to commit and do everything I can to make it work.

00:08:38.600 | But I have had plenty of millennials and even some people who are in Gen Z who've said

00:08:43.960 | to me, why should I pick the person?

00:08:46.120 | I have no idea what I'm doing.

00:08:47.640 | I would be happy if somebody set up an arranged marriage for me because they can't do

00:08:51.480 | any worse than I have in choosing my person.

00:08:54.440 | Yeah. And I think there's probably a middle ground there, too, which isn't just it

00:08:58.120 | doesn't have to be an arranged marriage.

00:08:59.520 | But I have a friend and two friends that we set them up on a date and they knew each

00:09:04.000 | other. They actually worked with each other, but they never thought they should date.

00:09:06.840 | And we're like, why don't you guys just go on a date?

00:09:08.400 | And so I like to think there's a middle ground of telling people, hey, maybe you should

00:09:12.320 | go on a date, but you don't have to necessarily get married.

00:09:14.400 | Like we don't have to commit you to this this grand thing.

00:09:16.800 | So I don't know if that's that's played a role in helping people try things they

00:09:21.160 | wouldn't try, which I have to assume people aren't the most rational when it comes to

00:09:24.760 | dating. Yeah, it's really interesting.

00:09:28.040 | I do feel like now with the position that I'm in, if I set people up on a date, they're

00:09:33.440 | likely to say yes, and then they're likely to think, well, Logan really thought that I

00:09:37.640 | would get along well with this person.

00:09:39.760 | And so I think that's only a positive because they walk into the date thinking, all

00:09:44.440 | right, I'm going to try to discover what Logan had in mind for me about this person,

00:09:48.160 | or I'm going to walk in with a really positive frame and I'm expecting to like them.

00:09:53.240 | And what we know is that so much of our experience in life, including dating, is all

00:09:58.840 | about our mindset. So there's that quote, whether you think things will go well or you

00:10:03.640 | think things will go poorly, you're right.

00:10:05.480 | And so when I think about that with dating, it's like if you walk in with a mindset of

00:10:11.360 | it hasn't worked for the last 10 years, this is my one hundredth first date in a long

00:10:15.520 | time, it's not going to work out, yeah, it probably won't.

00:10:18.800 | But if you walk in with the mindset of I'm going to create the experience I want to

00:10:23.880 | have, it only takes one person that has a huge impact on how you show up and how well

00:10:28.200 | the date goes.

00:10:28.920 | Yeah, it's interesting, I was talking to Patrick McGinnis, who's this guy who created

00:10:34.960 | the term FOMO, and I think you were on his podcast, actually, and he brought up in

00:10:39.920 | conversation that people who make kind of quicker, less research decisions are often

00:10:44.720 | happier with the outcome.

00:10:45.720 | And people who take more time actually might make a better decision but are less happy

00:10:50.520 | because they're aware of the alternatives.

00:10:52.000 | So a question I have is I feel like and I totally miss this boat, right?

00:10:56.440 | I haven't really dated anyone since the late 90s, maybe the early 2000s.

00:11:01.520 | So I miss the boat on online dating.

00:11:03.800 | But I feel like now there's it feels like there's a lot of options in front of you

00:11:08.240 | versus before it was kind of who you met.

00:11:10.000 | Does do more options make it harder for people to date?

00:11:13.880 | Yeah, so I love everything Patrick said, and I'm sure we'll get into this.

00:11:17.440 | But one of my contributions to the field is this idea of the three dating tendencies,

00:11:23.320 | this framework for how people have unrealistic expectations and how it holds them back.

00:11:28.520 | And one of those tendencies is the maximizer.

00:11:31.240 | And the maximizer is all about I want to see every possible option.

00:11:35.240 | I want to turn over every stone.

00:11:37.960 | And then and only then can I make the perfect decision.

00:11:40.920 | And there's this obsession with optimizing and making the perfect decision.

00:11:44.680 | But what we know is that there's another group called satisficers.

00:11:49.360 | And these are people who, instead of trying to find the perfect thing, say,

00:11:53.000 | I have a bar, I'm going to stop looking once I achieve that benchmark.

00:11:58.320 | And what we see is that satisficers are happier than maximizers,

00:12:02.600 | because in life it's not about making the perfect decision.

00:12:06.440 | It's about how you feel about your decision.

00:12:09.000 | And so in dating and in many things,

00:12:11.640 | it's not about seeing everything that's out there and choosing.

00:12:14.920 | It's about choosing something great, committing to it, building it and making it work.

00:12:19.240 | And going back to what we said about arranged marriages,

00:12:22.920 | there's an element of satisficing in arranged marriages.

00:12:26.240 | You're not saying, who are the 10 other people I could have married and would they have been better?

00:12:30.280 | It's I'm going to make what I have in front of me work because I'm committed.

00:12:35.000 | And that's how I'm going to be happiest long term.

00:12:37.320 | It seems somewhat in conflict with the concept of there being the one.

00:12:40.680 | So would it be fair to say that's not not something that you kind of believe in?

00:12:44.120 | Absolutely, yes.

00:12:45.800 | I think the one is a harmful idea.

00:12:48.040 | The same thing with soulmates,

00:12:49.400 | because it gives people permission to leave relationships that are perfectly good enough,

00:12:54.360 | but that they're struggling in.

00:12:56.120 | And so there might be a situation where you expect that you're going to meet your soulmate,

00:13:00.920 | that everything is going to be easy.

00:13:03.160 | And then you're dating them and you hit an inevitable rough patch.

00:13:07.000 | And instead of saying, yep, this is what relationships look like, you say,

00:13:10.200 | well, this person must not be my soulmate,

00:13:12.360 | because if they were my soulmate, this would be so much easier.

00:13:15.320 | So then you leave the relationship.

00:13:17.000 | So if you remove the concept of the soulmate and you say,

00:13:20.040 | there are many people in the world with whom you could get along,

00:13:23.560 | you can write different love stories and different life stories with different people,

00:13:28.360 | then you no longer put that pressure on yourself to find that one person.

00:13:32.360 | And you instead are empowered to build a great relationship

00:13:35.960 | instead of focusing on finding that perfect person.

00:13:38.440 | Yeah, that sounds like the kind of maximizer to satisficer transition.

00:13:43.080 | I don't know where I am in dating, but I know in a lot of things in life,

00:13:46.760 | I definitely feel like that maximizer personality

00:13:50.280 | and certainly my optimizing attitude falls in that.

00:13:54.440 | Are there tricks or tips to help someone kind of make that transition more easy?

00:13:59.880 | Yeah, absolutely.

00:14:01.960 | And this is something that Patrick and I have talked a lot about in terms of FOMO.

00:14:06.280 | So for example, I am absolutely a maximizer.

00:14:09.960 | And in all the research that I did for my book,

00:14:13.160 | one of the clear things that came out for me

00:14:15.320 | is that some things are just not worth maximizing.

00:14:18.920 | So somebody might say, oh, I don't use Instacart

00:14:21.720 | because I want to be able to choose the right tomato

00:14:24.840 | and somebody else can't choose the perfect tomato for me.

00:14:27.800 | Then when you think about it, it's like in the scheme of life,

00:14:30.120 | how important is it that you be the one to choose the tomato?

00:14:33.080 | And could your time be better spent elsewhere?

00:14:35.960 | Another thing is I used to spend multiple days researching airline flights,

00:14:40.840 | trying to get the perfect arrival time and the perfect airline and maximizing my points.

00:14:46.120 | And then at the end of the day, it was just a waste of time.

00:14:49.400 | So now I'll say something to myself like,

00:14:51.400 | I'm giving myself one hour to research flights.

00:14:54.680 | And at the end of that, I'm going to choose the best possible flight.

00:14:57.640 | And so part of it is understanding,

00:14:59.800 | does this decision matter enough, matter or not?

00:15:02.760 | Another one is giving yourself a time limit.

00:15:05.960 | And I think another one is just a psychological shift to say,

00:15:09.320 | it matters how I feel about the decision, not if it's the perfect decision.

00:15:14.680 | And I'm actually more likely to be happy with my decision

00:15:17.960 | if I set a benchmark, stop looking once I've achieved it,

00:15:22.360 | and then embrace what I bought instead of the maximizer thing,

00:15:25.720 | which is you research for days or months or years, you buy the thing,

00:15:30.680 | and then you have this pro-con list in your head of

00:15:33.560 | all the other things you could have bought.

00:15:35.240 | And could this have been better?

00:15:36.520 | And actually, that experience is more likely to

00:15:38.840 | just make you regret your choice in the first place.

00:15:41.240 | Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

00:15:43.720 | And so that's the maximizer.

00:15:45.320 | We didn't really describe it in the context of dating as much,

00:15:48.600 | but maybe it'd be interesting to walk through the

00:15:51.320 | three tendencies that you've identified and kind of talk a little bit about each.

00:15:56.200 | Yeah, I do a lot of one-on-one dating coaching.

00:15:58.920 | And so that means that I'm meeting people around the world.

00:16:01.480 | They're telling me their life story, their relationship history.

00:16:05.480 | We're talking about who they've been, who they are now, where they want to go.

00:16:09.880 | And I found that talking to a lot of different people

00:16:13.000 | from different countries and cultures,

00:16:14.840 | they all seem to have the same thing in common,

00:16:18.520 | which is that they had unrealistic expectations

00:16:21.640 | of certain parts of dating and relationships.

00:16:24.440 | And so from that, I created the three dating tendencies.

00:16:27.640 | The first one is the romanticizer.

00:16:31.080 | And this is the person who we talked about, the soulmate and the one.

00:16:35.960 | They have unrealistic expectations of relationships in general.

00:16:39.160 | So this is the person who loves love,

00:16:41.720 | and they don't want to use a dating app because it's "not romantic."

00:16:45.560 | And they have this very clear vision in their head of

00:16:48.520 | what their future partner will look like.

00:16:50.200 | They're focused on the "we met" story.

00:16:53.320 | And they think that once you meet the right person, everything's going to be easy.

00:16:56.360 | And the issue with the romanticizer is that

00:17:00.200 | they're not willing to put in effort to make the relationship great,

00:17:04.760 | and they're not even willing necessarily to be strategic about how to meet someone

00:17:08.920 | because they think that everything will happen to them.

00:17:12.040 | And so for the romanticizer, it's about overcoming some of this prince charming stuff

00:17:17.000 | and really understanding that who cares how you met?

00:17:19.400 | That's such a tiny percentage of the relationship.

00:17:21.400 | What actually matters is building a relationship with someone.

00:17:24.440 | The second type, which we talked about a bunch, is the maximizer.

00:17:28.520 | And their whole thing is, "Is there somebody better out there?"

00:17:32.200 | And so I meet a lot of people who say,

00:17:34.360 | "I like my girlfriend, but could she be 10% hotter or 5% more ambitious?

00:17:39.640 | Or could she push me more to think about big ideas?"

00:17:43.000 | And I have lots of conversations with people who are either single

00:17:46.680 | or deciding if they should get married or deciding if they should break up.

00:17:50.120 | And I hear the maximizer come out of them where they're really weighing,

00:17:54.280 | "Is this the best that I could get, or is there somebody better out there?"

00:17:57.480 | And the third type is the hesitator.

00:18:00.840 | And they have unrealistic expectations of themselves.

00:18:04.040 | And they're just not even dating at all.

00:18:05.720 | So the story in their head is something like,

00:18:07.640 | "I'll be ready to date when I lose 10 pounds,

00:18:12.040 | when I have a more impressive job,

00:18:15.800 | when I move and get settled in my new city."

00:18:18.200 | And so they're always coming up with these reasons, really excuses,

00:18:21.400 | why they're not ready to date.

00:18:24.120 | And the thing in their head is that they're not lovable yet.

00:18:27.480 | And only when they're lovable should they put themselves out there.

00:18:31.080 | But the truth is that nobody's perfect.

00:18:33.800 | Not you, not the person you're going to wind up with.

00:18:36.200 | And you're only going to get better at dating by dating.

00:18:40.520 | And you're only going to figure out what kind of person you want to be with

00:18:43.720 | by dating a bunch of different people.

00:18:45.480 | And so for hesitators, it's really about overcoming this fear of starting

00:18:50.600 | and just really getting themselves out there,

00:18:52.600 | getting better at dating and learning who they should be with.

00:18:55.400 | It's fascinating that you break this down.

00:18:57.160 | I can't remember, but I feel like I was probably a maximizer given my personality.

00:19:01.160 | The show is called "All the Hacks."

00:19:02.840 | Yeah, so it's always looking for that extra 5%.

00:19:05.640 | I've started learning in my life how to realize that

00:19:09.400 | that extra 5% for something really big

00:19:11.720 | is more important than the extra 5% for something small.

00:19:14.280 | So I'm no longer picking out my own tomatoes,

00:19:18.120 | though the last two orders from Amazon Fresh

00:19:20.600 | have brought me green bananas that have taken three to four weeks to ripen.

00:19:24.280 | So I'm currently have a big gripe with Amazon

00:19:28.200 | because each week it's new green bananas that just won't ever ripen.

00:19:33.240 | But I feel like something interesting,

00:19:34.920 | we talk a lot about money on the show,

00:19:36.280 | and people seem to want to find love and build their wealth.

00:19:40.120 | They're kind of similar big aspirations in people's lives.

00:19:44.040 | And we don't talk about them either in school.

00:19:46.440 | It's not like you learn how to date in school

00:19:48.040 | or you learn how to manage your money in school.

00:19:49.960 | But it does seem like there's a lot more data and research

00:19:52.600 | on what people should do with their money.

00:19:54.600 | So then there is about their relationships,

00:19:56.920 | at least in terms of dating versus how to handle a marriage.

00:20:00.920 | Is that true?

00:20:02.120 | Do you feel similarly about dating being kind of this taboo thing

00:20:05.400 | we never learn about but should?

00:20:07.240 | One thing I would say is there are definitely a lot of books

00:20:11.320 | that people read about money, right?

00:20:13.800 | So many people read "I Will Teach You to Be Rich."

00:20:16.520 | So many people read "The Millionaire Next Door,"

00:20:19.240 | "Rich Dad, Poor Dad."

00:20:20.440 | I do feel like there's really a tradition

00:20:22.520 | of a lot of personal finance books

00:20:24.360 | and people feeling really comfortable about saying,

00:20:26.920 | "Hey, how much are you invested in crypto?"

00:20:29.560 | And "Am I too late to buy Dogecoin?"

00:20:31.960 | And all of these different things, right?

00:20:33.240 | I feel like people are really comfortable with that.

00:20:35.080 | There's less of a tradition of self-help books around dating

00:20:39.720 | that people are really comfortable talking about.

00:20:42.120 | And there's sort of a shame around it.

00:20:43.640 | There's a feeling, "Oh, love is natural

00:20:46.520 | and you should be born knowing how to love."

00:20:49.000 | And to that, I would say, yes, love is natural,

00:20:51.160 | but dating is not.

00:20:52.760 | Dating, as we talked about, is relatively new

00:20:54.920 | in the span of human history.

00:20:56.680 | Dating apps are a decade old.

00:20:59.080 | Of course, you need to be taught how to date.

00:21:01.400 | It's not something that you are just born knowing.

00:21:03.480 | It's actually pretty complicated.

00:21:04.760 | You're making a decision.

00:21:06.520 | If you're gonna be in a monogamous long-term relationship,

00:21:09.240 | you're choosing one person out of billions

00:21:11.560 | to spend your life with.

00:21:13.000 | That's a huge amount of pressure.

00:21:14.360 | In terms of how much research there is,

00:21:16.920 | so there is a field called Relationship Science,

00:21:19.560 | which is a field in academia.

00:21:21.400 | So one of my mentors, Eli Finkel,

00:21:23.480 | is a relationship scientist out of Northwestern.

00:21:26.920 | He does incredible research there.

00:21:28.840 | And they talk about things like

00:21:30.760 | what makes people attracted to each other?

00:21:32.600 | Does that last long-term?

00:21:34.520 | What are the things that matter more and less

00:21:36.920 | than we think they do for long-term relationships?

00:21:39.400 | There's also Doctors John and Julie Gottman,

00:21:42.600 | who are out of Seattle,

00:21:45.160 | who have been working in the field for over 40 years.

00:21:48.680 | And they have done some really seminal research

00:21:51.560 | in the field of Relationship Science.

00:21:53.160 | So they have this concept called Bids

00:21:55.560 | that you may have come across,

00:21:56.840 | which is that, this is kind of a long story,

00:21:59.800 | but I think it's worth telling.

00:22:01.080 | So what they used to do is

00:22:04.200 | they used to have this apartment

00:22:09.080 | and it was kind of like a room at an inn,

00:22:11.960 | and they would have couples stay there for the weekend.

00:22:14.760 | And they decked it out with cameras, microphones.

00:22:19.000 | They measured the urine in the toilet.

00:22:21.000 | They even had something under the chair

00:22:23.160 | called a gigalometer

00:22:24.600 | that measured how much you were moving your chair

00:22:26.920 | while you sat in it.

00:22:27.800 | And they would observe couples for the weekend.

00:22:30.360 | And they would look at how they talk to each other

00:22:32.280 | and different things like that.

00:22:33.400 | Six years later, they checked in with these couples

00:22:37.240 | and they saw that some were together happily,

00:22:40.040 | they call these relationship masters,

00:22:42.680 | and some were together unhappily,

00:22:44.680 | relationship disasters,

00:22:46.440 | or some people had broken up.

00:22:48.120 | And what they found was that the number one predictor

00:22:51.560 | of who would become a relationship master

00:22:53.560 | versus a relationship disaster

00:22:55.240 | is how the couples treated each other

00:22:58.520 | in these micro moments.

00:23:00.120 | And so they call them bids.

00:23:01.720 | So Chris, an example would be,

00:23:03.480 | you're staying in this inn with your wife

00:23:05.560 | and she stands up and looks out the window and says,

00:23:09.400 | "Oh, there's a sailboat going by."

00:23:11.000 | And you're sitting in the chair.

00:23:12.680 | How do you respond?

00:23:13.960 | Do you A, stand up and walk next to her and say,

00:23:18.040 | "Oh, that's a beautiful sailboat.

00:23:19.320 | Maybe we should go sailing while we're in town."

00:23:22.200 | Do you ignore her?

00:23:23.640 | Or do you say, "Wife, I'm trying to read the paper.

00:23:27.960 | Why are you interrupting me?"

00:23:29.800 | And this might seem really small.

00:23:31.000 | It's just a small moment

00:23:31.960 | where she's talking about a boat.

00:23:33.160 | But how you respond to those bids for connection

00:23:36.360 | determines how you'll do long-term.

00:23:38.280 | And so successful couples turn towards each other,

00:23:41.800 | which is being positive, being affirming,

00:23:44.600 | asking a follow-up question.

00:23:46.600 | They turn towards each other 86% of the time.

00:23:50.040 | And the couples that break up or are unhappily married,

00:23:53.720 | they only turn towards each other 33% of the time.

00:23:57.400 | And so what they found is that relationships

00:23:59.400 | are not about the once-a-year trip to Hawaii

00:24:03.240 | or the romantic dinner once in a while.

00:24:06.600 | It's about on a daily basis,

00:24:08.440 | when your partner tries to connect with you,

00:24:10.600 | do you choose to connect back?

00:24:12.200 | And that's really what determines

00:24:13.640 | how happy and successful we are in relationships long-term.

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00:27:23.240 | Now, I know there are sometimes things

00:27:25.800 | that are causation or not.

00:27:28.120 | Do you think that this is something,

00:27:30.280 | it sounds like something you could learn?

00:27:31.640 | It's like, oh, if I want to have a long-term relationship,

00:27:34.200 | I could just make sure that I put more of an effort in

00:27:36.840 | to respond positively to these bids,

00:27:39.080 | or is it more the kinds of people who by default

00:27:41.960 | respond to those bids are more successful?

00:27:44.040 | Is it one or the other?

00:27:44.840 | - So yeah, it's a great question,

00:27:47.640 | and this is definitely something that can be taught,

00:27:49.960 | and it's why I find the work of the Gottmans so inspiring,

00:27:52.840 | because since I first went to their workshop

00:27:57.080 | with my then-boyfriend, now-husband in 2015,

00:28:00.440 | I've been applying this lesson all the time,

00:28:02.280 | and I can see the periods of my life

00:28:03.880 | where I was more focused on work

00:28:05.640 | and less invested in the relationship,

00:28:07.240 | which meant I wasn't making as many bids

00:28:09.160 | or I wasn't responding to bids.

00:28:10.920 | Our relationship did worse,

00:28:12.360 | and now I'm constantly reminding myself,

00:28:15.240 | if he walks into the room and talks about his day

00:28:18.120 | and I'm in the middle of an email,

00:28:19.640 | the most important thing I can do

00:28:21.320 | is look away from my computer and talk to him,

00:28:23.800 | because that's the stuff that really matters.

00:28:25.960 | And so yes, there are people who are naturally inclined

00:28:28.760 | to be good at relationships, right?

00:28:30.600 | If you are more open, if you are less neurotic,

00:28:35.240 | if you are more conscientious,

00:28:37.000 | those personality traits are correlated

00:28:39.320 | with relationship success,

00:28:41.000 | just because it might be easier

00:28:42.440 | for you to connect with people

00:28:44.200 | or for you to follow through or be reliable.

00:28:46.760 | But in general, the concept of bids is pretty simple.

00:28:49.400 | It's make efforts to connect with your partner.

00:28:52.680 | And when your partner makes efforts to connect with you,

00:28:55.080 | choose to turn towards those bids.

00:28:58.600 | - Yeah, this is great.

00:29:00.920 | I feel like that's something that everyone could apply

00:29:03.480 | to any relationship they're in.

00:29:05.640 | Do you think it applies to other relationships?

00:29:07.720 | Like even at work,

00:29:08.600 | if someone brings something up at work,

00:29:09.960 | do you build deeper relationships with colleagues

00:29:12.040 | by responding to maybe they're not bids,

00:29:14.600 | but similar aspect?

00:29:16.120 | - Absolutely, yes.

00:29:17.480 | I just recently gave a talk at Google

00:29:19.560 | applying some of these concepts

00:29:20.840 | from relationship science to relationships at work.

00:29:23.720 | And bids was one of the main things I talked about,

00:29:25.960 | which is that relationships are really built

00:29:28.360 | in these small moments.

00:29:29.480 | So if your colleague just came back from a trip,

00:29:32.680 | spend 30 seconds saying, "Hey, how was your trip?

00:29:35.720 | "What was it like to be there?

00:29:37.000 | "How did you choose?"

00:29:37.960 | Just make an effort to connect with that person.

00:29:40.440 | Or if somebody mentions

00:29:41.960 | that they haven't been feeling well,

00:29:43.720 | the next time you talk to them, say,

00:29:45.000 | "Hey, how are you feeling?"

00:29:46.200 | And it's these small things that we think,

00:29:47.800 | "Oh, those are so small, they probably don't matter."

00:29:50.200 | But the reframe is they are so small,

00:29:53.000 | and in some ways they are the only things that matter.

00:29:55.400 | - Yeah, and so you said you did this talk,

00:29:58.280 | that was a big piece of it.

00:29:59.240 | Were there other lessons from relationships and dating

00:30:02.120 | that apply outside of that world?

00:30:05.000 | - So one of the big things I talked about

00:30:07.240 | in terms of applying relationship science

00:30:09.240 | to relationships at work

00:30:11.000 | is what I just mentioned in terms of bids

00:30:13.320 | and what the Gottmans call small things often.

00:30:16.760 | And so some of my key takeaways there,

00:30:18.600 | one of them was make bids to new team members,

00:30:21.720 | turn towards bids from your colleagues,

00:30:24.200 | assume positive intent in digital communication.

00:30:26.920 | That's a really big one.

00:30:28.360 | It's just so easy in a remote world

00:30:30.280 | to not have that foundation of friendship

00:30:33.080 | and intimacy to fall back on.

00:30:34.840 | And so when somebody says something

00:30:36.200 | that feels kind of sharp in a Google Doc,

00:30:38.280 | you might just assume that they're criticizing you.

00:30:40.440 | But how can you really assume positive intent?

00:30:43.080 | And then another one,

00:30:44.040 | which I got from my friend, Liz Foslian,

00:30:46.440 | who if you're not aware of her work,

00:30:47.960 | she would be a great guest on your podcast.

00:30:50.280 | She has an Instagram account called Liz and Molly,

00:30:54.680 | and she does these amazing illustrations

00:30:56.920 | about things at work.

00:30:58.440 | And so this is a concept from her

00:31:00.040 | called assign a meeting monitor,

00:31:02.200 | which is that on a rotating basis,

00:31:04.520 | you have somebody in a meeting who makes sure,

00:31:06.760 | did this person raise their hand,

00:31:08.120 | but not have a chance to speak?

00:31:10.040 | Or has this person not expressed their feedback in a while?

00:31:14.440 | And should you reach out to them one-on-one?

00:31:16.280 | Is somebody consistently being interrupted?

00:31:18.280 | And just monitoring those micro moments in a meeting

00:31:21.560 | can actually have a big impact

00:31:23.080 | on whether or not somebody feels heard,

00:31:25.400 | whether or not somebody feels respected at work.

00:31:27.640 | And so really the overall concept here

00:31:29.560 | is that a lot of what matters to us in relationships,

00:31:32.600 | which is how we feel in small moments

00:31:36.040 | also affects us at work.

00:31:37.560 | And then the other concept that I applied

00:31:39.400 | is called decide don't slide.

00:31:41.800 | And so there's tons of research in relationship science

00:31:44.680 | that shows that couples who make conscious decisions

00:31:48.200 | to either move forward or break up

00:31:50.520 | are happier, more successful,

00:31:52.840 | and even have more passionate sex

00:31:54.840 | than couples who do the opposite, what's called sliding.

00:31:57.480 | So sliding would be,

00:31:58.920 | "Chris, you and I have been dating for a while.

00:32:01.080 | My lease is up.

00:32:01.960 | I guess I should just move in with you."

00:32:03.960 | As opposed to us sitting down and saying,

00:32:05.880 | "What does moving in together mean to you?

00:32:07.720 | Does it mean we're giving our relationship a try?

00:32:11.080 | Does it mean we're gonna get married?"

00:32:12.600 | Things like that.

00:32:13.400 | And so you wanna decide your way into a decision not slide.

00:32:17.400 | And the same thing is true at work.

00:32:18.920 | You wanna be constantly checking in about,

00:32:21.160 | "Are we on the same page about priorities?

00:32:23.640 | Have we talked about OKR planning?

00:32:25.880 | Do I understand if the company's initiatives have changed?"

00:32:30.280 | You really want to make sure

00:32:31.480 | that people are super clear on their roles,

00:32:33.960 | responsibilities, priorities,

00:32:35.720 | and not just making assumptions

00:32:37.080 | and sliding your way into the next project.

00:32:39.320 | - Yeah, if I apply some of these lessons

00:32:42.680 | back to relationships,

00:32:44.200 | which is, I guess, where they started,

00:32:45.800 | it seems like some of the biggest things people get wrong

00:32:48.680 | are thinking it's all about the big moments

00:32:50.840 | and kind of not taking the time

00:32:53.560 | to maybe be more intentional

00:32:55.080 | about major points in a relationship.

00:32:57.800 | Are there any other big things you think people get wrong

00:33:00.360 | about relationships with partners?

00:33:02.120 | - Yeah, there's a ton.

00:33:03.960 | So starting with dating,

00:33:05.240 | one of the biggest mistakes that I see people making

00:33:07.960 | is this idea of optimizing for the spark.

00:33:10.120 | And so, so often I will set somebody up on a date

00:33:14.440 | or my dating coaching client will call me

00:33:16.520 | and they'll say, "I met this woman.

00:33:18.200 | She was perfectly nice.

00:33:19.400 | She was great.

00:33:20.120 | We had a great conversation.

00:33:21.320 | She was attractive, dynamic.

00:33:23.160 | I'm not gonna see her again."

00:33:24.360 | I'll say, "That's surprising, why?"

00:33:27.480 | And the person will say,

00:33:29.000 | "Well, I just didn't feel the spark."

00:33:30.840 | And so the spark has become this all-encompassing word

00:33:33.880 | that means I didn't feel instant chemistry.

00:33:35.960 | I didn't feel fireworks.

00:33:37.320 | And it's just such a mistake

00:33:39.160 | because many of the happiest couples I know

00:33:41.400 | knew each other for a long time

00:33:43.720 | before they started dating.

00:33:45.640 | Maybe they worked together.

00:33:46.760 | Maybe they were roommates.

00:33:48.760 | Maybe they orbited each other in a mutual friend group.

00:33:52.200 | And over time, that person becomes more attractive to you.

00:33:55.640 | You see how kind they are.

00:33:57.240 | You see how talented they are.

00:33:59.240 | And that affection and appreciation grows.

00:34:02.600 | And so I say to my clients, "Fuck the spark,"

00:34:05.720 | which is stop expecting instant chemistry

00:34:08.760 | and instead say, "What side of me

00:34:10.840 | does this person bring out?

00:34:12.440 | Am I curious about them?

00:34:14.360 | Do they make me feel relaxed?

00:34:16.120 | Do they make me feel confident?

00:34:17.880 | Do I feel attracted to them?"

00:34:20.120 | And really just tuning in to different sides

00:34:22.360 | of the experience instead of optimizing

00:34:24.680 | for this immediate fireworks or chemistry.

00:34:27.000 | - Yeah, I like that.

00:34:29.080 | My wife and I met in a co-ed business fraternity

00:34:32.680 | and she was my little brother.

00:34:35.080 | So we certainly did not start with a spark.

00:34:38.040 | In fact, it was through these planned activities

00:34:41.480 | that we were supposed to do with each other

00:34:42.840 | that we ended up falling for each other.

00:34:44.840 | And at the end of the semester,

00:34:47.400 | they were like, "Which big little brother combo

00:34:49.720 | had kind of done the most activities?"

00:34:51.320 | And we were like, "Well, let's withdraw

00:34:52.760 | from this competition because now we're dating."

00:34:55.080 | And I feel like we just ticked off a lot of boxes

00:34:57.640 | that people don't need to know about.

00:34:59.000 | - That's so funny.

00:35:00.040 | Rarely does somebody tell me

00:35:01.480 | my wife was my little brother in college.

00:35:03.400 | - Yeah, yeah, that might be a first.

00:35:05.080 | It's not a typical way to open a conversation,

00:35:08.360 | but it usually leads to some fun stories.

00:35:10.840 | I noticed the longest chapter, I think,

00:35:12.600 | in the entire book was about looking for a life partner,

00:35:15.240 | not a prom date.

00:35:16.120 | And I'm curious if the length of that chapter

00:35:19.080 | could interpret that that's kind of the biggest problem

00:35:21.240 | that people face or how you think about that challenge

00:35:24.440 | of people looking for something that's different

00:35:26.280 | than what they actually need.

00:35:27.320 | - That's so funny that you brought that up.

00:35:29.400 | I don't think anyone else has mentioned that.

00:35:31.400 | And Chris, I do hope we get a chance

00:35:33.160 | to talk about the book writing process,

00:35:34.920 | but honestly, writing a book is so hard.

00:35:38.200 | And especially your first one, you're just like,

00:35:40.520 | "How long is a chapter?

00:35:41.640 | Do all chapters have to be the same length?"

00:35:43.480 | And in a really early version of the book,

00:35:45.640 | I had some chapters that were, let's say, 10 pages

00:35:47.880 | and some that were 50 pages,

00:35:49.320 | was able to work with an editor who explained like,

00:35:51.480 | "No, this needs to become a sidebar in another chapter

00:35:54.680 | and most chapters should be similar length."

00:35:56.440 | And so I didn't even realize off the top of my head

00:35:58.840 | that that was the longest chapter,

00:36:00.120 | but that does make sense.

00:36:01.720 | And so the premise there is that

00:36:03.640 | at a certain point in your life,

00:36:05.400 | you need to stop looking for the prom date.

00:36:08.360 | The prom date is somebody who's hot.

00:36:10.920 | You would love to dance the night away with them.

00:36:14.280 | Maybe you'd wanna sleep with them at the end of the night,

00:36:16.280 | but they're not really the person

00:36:18.040 | who's necessarily reliable

00:36:19.640 | and gonna pick up your kids from the dentist.

00:36:23.160 | The life partner is the person

00:36:24.840 | who you want to align yourself with long-term.

00:36:27.640 | This is a person who you can make hard decisions with,

00:36:30.280 | who you fight with well,

00:36:31.800 | who you respect,

00:36:33.160 | who you admire,

00:36:34.520 | who brings out a really happy, satisfied part of you.

00:36:39.160 | And all too often,

00:36:40.280 | I see that people start in their dating journeys

00:36:43.000 | by going after the prom date

00:36:45.000 | and then they never make that really important shift

00:36:47.640 | to start looking for the life partner.

00:36:49.880 | And so for many of the people I work with,

00:36:51.880 | it's about saying, "Hey,

00:36:53.000 | you need to take yourself more seriously.

00:36:55.240 | Stop dating this guy who doesn't call you back,

00:36:58.920 | who doesn't really care for himself or other people,

00:37:03.320 | who doesn't seem to be passionate about anything.

00:37:06.360 | He's ambivalent about his job

00:37:07.880 | and he's ambivalent about you."

00:37:09.560 | And start looking for someone

00:37:10.760 | who's actually serious about building a relationship.

00:37:13.960 | And so there is this really critical point

00:37:16.360 | where hopefully sooner rather than later,

00:37:18.840 | people understand,

00:37:19.960 | "Okay, maybe I would have gone out

00:37:21.400 | with that person in the past,

00:37:22.440 | but they're more of a prom date

00:37:23.800 | and now it's time to really find this life partner."

00:37:25.960 | - Unfortunately for me,

00:37:28.520 | I'm in a relationship,

00:37:30.280 | a lot of the chapters were more like curiosity filling

00:37:33.720 | than things that I can apply necessarily,

00:37:35.960 | though I really appreciate you helping me

00:37:37.880 | apply them to work examples.

00:37:39.800 | But the last chapter was one of the shortest

00:37:42.840 | and about what to do after you decide to get married

00:37:46.440 | and with your spouse.

00:37:47.800 | And I'm hoping that maybe that's

00:37:49.640 | because there's a second book in the works,

00:37:51.640 | maybe not,

00:37:52.520 | but I'm curious where you would go

00:37:54.120 | with the things you've learned

00:37:55.720 | for people already in a relationship

00:37:57.720 | that want to make that relationship last longer.

00:38:00.760 | We talked about bids,

00:38:02.040 | but are there other things you think people

00:38:03.880 | should work into their practice of their marriage?

00:38:06.120 | I know you're married,

00:38:07.320 | are there things you do specifically?

00:38:09.000 | - I'm married, yes, it's funny.

00:38:10.600 | One of the most common Google search terms

00:38:12.360 | is "Logan, you're a husband,"

00:38:13.640 | which I wonder if you have like Chris Hutchins' wife,

00:38:17.960 | if people Google that.

00:38:19.000 | I think it's a lot of people are like,

00:38:20.280 | "All right, who's this Logan person?

00:38:21.640 | "Is she even married?

00:38:22.520 | "Has she even found love?"

00:38:23.640 | So anyway, yes, I am married.

00:38:25.640 | In terms of why that chapter is there,

00:38:28.520 | just a little bit of behind the scenes with book writing.

00:38:31.640 | It felt very clear to me

00:38:33.880 | in terms of who would buy the book

00:38:35.080 | that it would be mostly people

00:38:36.840 | who are single and looking for a relationship.

00:38:39.080 | For that expression,

00:38:39.880 | it's easier to sell medicine than a vitamin, right?

00:38:43.320 | It's when somebody has a problem,

00:38:44.840 | they want to pay to solve it

00:38:46.600 | versus somebody is less likely to pay money

00:38:48.360 | just to say like, "Yeah, I should invest

00:38:49.800 | "in my long-term relationship."

00:38:51.880 | But for me, I was like,

00:38:52.920 | "I really want to set somebody up for success A to Z.

00:38:55.400 | "I want you to start the book when you're single

00:38:57.000 | "and things aren't working out.

00:38:58.440 | "I want to help you date, get into a relationship,

00:39:00.600 | "move in together, commit, or get married."

00:39:03.400 | And then I wanted this last chapter that was like,

00:39:05.720 | "Go forth and do these things."

00:39:07.880 | I would say perhaps that chapter hasn't landed

00:39:10.840 | as much as I hoped it would

00:39:12.520 | because so many people reading it are single

00:39:14.280 | and they're like, "I'll come back to this later."

00:39:15.880 | But it does matter to me

00:39:17.160 | because I think the whole idea of my concept

00:39:20.200 | of the happily ever after fallacy

00:39:22.760 | is that people think,

00:39:23.640 | "Oh, the hard work of love is finding someone.

00:39:25.960 | "And once I find someone, it's easy."

00:39:27.720 | And that's just clearly not true.

00:39:29.400 | And so that last chapter is all about the things

00:39:32.200 | that you can do to keep your relationship going.

00:39:34.600 | So one is this concept from Daniel Gilbert,

00:39:39.480 | who's a Harvard psychologist

00:39:40.920 | called the end of history illusion.

00:39:43.400 | That's the idea that we always think

00:39:45.400 | that we're done growing.

00:39:47.000 | So if I said to you,

00:39:48.120 | "Chris, how much have you changed in the last 10 years?"

00:39:51.240 | You would likely tell me, "A lot."

00:39:54.280 | And you would say, "I'm in a completely different place

00:39:56.040 | "than I thought I would be.

00:39:57.080 | "And X, Y, Z has changed."

00:39:58.680 | And then if I said,

00:39:59.480 | "How much do you expect to change in the next 10 years?"

00:40:02.040 | Most likely, if you're like the average person

00:40:04.600 | who Dan Gilbert surveyed,

00:40:06.200 | you will say, "Oh, not that much."

00:40:07.560 | And so we always think we're done growing,

00:40:09.240 | but that's just not true.

00:40:10.440 | So the same thing is true in relationships.

00:40:13.000 | We think, "I found my person and we are who we are."

00:40:16.520 | But if you actually think about the fact

00:40:18.200 | that you and your partner

00:40:19.160 | are constantly growing and changing,

00:40:21.320 | how can you design a relationship

00:40:23.720 | that grows and changes with you?

00:40:25.880 | And so some of the hacks there,

00:40:27.960 | one of them is a weekly ritual

00:40:31.000 | that I call the check-in ritual.

00:40:32.600 | John Gottman also has something he calls

00:40:35.320 | the state of the union.

00:40:36.680 | Just basically conversations

00:40:39.800 | where you and your partner check in and say,

00:40:42.360 | "How are things going?

00:40:43.960 | "How can I support you?

00:40:46.120 | "What do you have coming up in your life?

00:40:48.440 | "How are you feeling about our relationship?"

00:40:50.200 | And really just saving that time to

00:40:52.440 | stop problems before they start.

00:40:56.120 | Because once there's a lot of resentment

00:40:58.200 | or built-up problems, it's hard to go back.

00:41:00.760 | But if you can actually deal with those problems

00:41:03.560 | before they boil over,

00:41:05.560 | you're in a much better position.

00:41:07.080 | And so for people listening to your podcast

00:41:08.680 | who are into hacks,

00:41:09.880 | I would say use the power of Google Calendar, right?

00:41:13.320 | It sucks when you have to be the person in a relationship

00:41:15.320 | who's like, "Hey, we should check in.

00:41:16.520 | "Hey, can we talk about this?

00:41:17.720 | "Hey, we haven't done this in a while."

00:41:19.080 | If you can just put it as a recurring event

00:41:20.920 | in your calendar,

00:41:21.960 | neither one of you has to "hold space."

00:41:24.760 | The calendar does that for you.

00:41:26.280 | And so this check-in ritual is a really healthy way

00:41:29.240 | to stop a problem before it starts.

00:41:31.720 | The other one is a relationship contract.

00:41:34.280 | My husband likes to call this the relationship charter.

00:41:37.480 | It's really saying,

00:41:38.360 | "Let's chart a course for where we wanna go."

00:41:40.760 | And so we might say,

00:41:42.040 | "What are the rituals in our life that we like

00:41:44.280 | "and we wanna keep?

00:41:45.240 | "Who are the friends or family

00:41:51.000 | "that you want me to get to know better?

00:41:53.080 | "What are our financial goals?

00:41:54.760 | "What are our emotional goals?"

00:41:56.200 | Really, the relationship contract

00:41:57.560 | can be whatever you want it to be,

00:41:59.480 | but the really important thing

00:42:00.920 | is to just make sure that you and your partner

00:42:03.240 | are on the same page about where you are now

00:42:05.640 | and where you're headed.

00:42:06.920 | And then you can check in maybe in a year,

00:42:09.640 | maybe in two years,

00:42:10.600 | maybe every five years.

00:42:11.800 | And it's really that chance to course correct

00:42:13.880 | because people are living longer.

00:42:15.960 | They're going to be in relationships

00:42:18.120 | that are decades longer than marriages of the past.

00:42:22.200 | And how can you make sure that that relationship

00:42:24.440 | can really adapt to serve your changing needs

00:42:27.720 | as you change over time?

00:42:29.240 | - I couldn't help but think

00:42:31.160 | when you were talking about this relationship charter

00:42:33.000 | that there's so many websites where they're saying,

00:42:34.680 | "Oh, put in your email address to download this PDF.

00:42:37.240 | "I don't know if you have a template for it.

00:42:39.160 | "If you do, I'll link it in the show notes.

00:42:40.840 | "If you don't, I would totally sign up

00:42:43.000 | "for any newsletter to download a copy of it

00:42:45.480 | "'cause I think it's fascinating."

00:42:46.680 | - Yes, I do have a relationship contract

00:42:49.800 | on my website that people can access.

00:42:51.720 | There's also one in the book.

00:42:53.800 | And in terms of downloads and things,

00:42:56.040 | if anyone was curious about that

00:42:57.960 | three dating tendencies framework,

00:42:59.560 | I have a great quiz on my website

00:43:01.160 | that will tell you what your tendency is.

00:43:02.760 | - Oh, that's awesome.

00:43:04.120 | So that is something I think is really cool.

00:43:05.800 | - Sometimes the smallest changes

00:43:09.400 | make the biggest impact

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00:44:16.680 | Do you all remember episode 122

00:44:20.920 | when I spoke to chef David Chang

00:44:22.920 | about leveling up your cooking at home?

00:44:25.080 | If not, definitely go back and give it a listen.

00:44:27.400 | But one of his top hacks was using the microwave more.

00:44:30.920 | I'll admit I was a skeptic at first,

00:44:33.240 | but after getting a full set of microwave cookware

00:44:35.960 | from AnyDay, I'm a total convert

00:44:38.280 | and I'm excited to partner with them for this episode.

00:44:40.600 | AnyDay is glass cookware specifically designed

00:44:43.320 | to make delicious food from scratch in the microwave.

00:44:46.520 | And honestly, using it feels like a kitchen cheat code

00:44:49.720 | because it speeds up and simplifies the process so much.

00:44:53.320 | The cookware is 100% plastic free

00:44:55.800 | and you can cook, serve, store, and reheat

00:44:58.600 | all in the same dish

00:45:00.200 | that happens to be dishwasher, freezer, and oven safe too.

00:45:03.640 | And if you need a recipe suggestion

00:45:05.320 | to kick off your AnyDay adventure,

00:45:07.160 | I highly recommend David Chang's Salmon Rice.

00:45:09.960 | It is so good.

00:45:11.240 | And if you haven't checked out

00:45:13.240 | the Matte Black Ayo Collection they launched last year,

00:45:16.520 | you have to check it out.

00:45:18.200 | So to get 15% off our new favorite cookware,

00:45:21.640 | go to allthehacks.com/anyday.

00:45:24.920 | Again, that's allthehacks.com/anyday for 15% off.

00:45:30.840 | (air whooshing)

00:45:31.720 | I just want to thank you, Quick,

00:45:33.080 | for listening to and supporting the show.

00:45:35.400 | Your support is what keeps this show going.

00:45:38.200 | To get all of the URLs, codes, deals,

00:45:41.000 | and discounts from our partners,

00:45:42.680 | you can go to allthehacks.com/deals.

00:45:46.280 | So please consider supporting those who support us.

00:45:49.640 | Are there things outside of relationships

00:45:51.960 | and dating in your life that are,

00:45:53.960 | you know, I always say like routines or tactics that you do

00:45:56.520 | that other people are often surprised about

00:45:58.440 | but want to try themselves that you've used

00:46:00.760 | to help your personal or professional life?

00:46:03.320 | - Sure, yeah.

00:46:05.080 | I'll give one more that has to do

00:46:07.560 | with personal life and dating,

00:46:09.960 | which is this concept called OSOs

00:46:11.960 | or Other Significant Others.

00:46:13.960 | So there's this really great research from Elaine Chung,

00:46:17.080 | who was at Northwestern

00:46:18.440 | and now actually works with me at Hinge by coincidence,

00:46:21.000 | and I love her research.

00:46:22.360 | And it's this idea that if you say to couples,

00:46:25.480 | "Who in your life do you go to to talk about work?

00:46:27.880 | "Who do you go to to talk about drama?

00:46:30.360 | "Who do you go to to talk about politics?"

00:46:32.280 | If people can make a list with a lot of different names,

00:46:34.920 | which means they have a really extensive social network,

00:46:38.600 | those couples tend to be happier

00:46:40.600 | than people who have very few friends

00:46:42.520 | or only rely on each other.

00:46:44.440 | The reason for that is that

00:46:46.280 | we often expect too much from our partners.

00:46:49.320 | We expect them to be everything to us.

00:46:51.560 | And so, Chris, in your relationship,

00:46:53.400 | I imagine there are topics

00:46:54.760 | that your wife's really excited to talk about

00:46:57.080 | and topics that when you bring up,

00:46:58.520 | her eyes glaze over.

00:47:00.360 | What are some of those topics?

00:47:01.720 | - Yeah, I mean, I think I could go deep

00:47:05.080 | on travel points and stuff.

00:47:07.080 | And I feel like sometimes I can get her reeled in

00:47:09.560 | and be like, "Let's engage."

00:47:10.600 | And sometimes she's like, "Why don't you just find the hotel,

00:47:13.400 | "send me to, if you need me to pick between two,

00:47:15.720 | "that's great."

00:47:16.520 | And then sometimes I call some of my other

00:47:18.200 | kind of nerdy travel hacking friends,

00:47:19.960 | and I'm like, "Where should we go in Greece or something?"

00:47:22.680 | - 100%, yeah, I totally relate to that.

00:47:25.640 | I once wrote an article about this concept

00:47:28.520 | where I said my husband came home from work

00:47:30.360 | and I ran up to him at the door and I was like,

00:47:32.360 | "I moved this bank account around

00:47:34.440 | "and I opened up this credit card

00:47:36.120 | "and I saved $300."

00:47:38.280 | And it was this really long story.

00:47:39.480 | At the end, he said, "I would have given you $300

00:47:41.960 | "to not tell me that story."

00:47:43.560 | He's very funny and he's very nice.

00:47:47.400 | But anyway, I was like,

00:47:48.280 | "Oh, my husband is not my coupon person."

00:47:52.040 | And so I called my mom and I told her that story

00:47:54.280 | and she was thrilled.

00:47:55.560 | And so this whole concept of other significant others

00:47:58.200 | is that you should have people in your life

00:48:00.280 | who you go to for different things.

00:48:02.280 | I go to my husband to talk about health,

00:48:04.520 | working out, eating.

00:48:06.840 | I go to my best friend from high school

00:48:08.840 | if I wanna talk about my emotions.

00:48:10.360 | I go to my sister if I wanna talk about work.

00:48:12.600 | And I have these different people in my life

00:48:14.440 | that play different roles.

00:48:15.880 | It takes the pressure off your relationship.

00:48:17.960 | Your partner doesn't have to talk to you

00:48:19.960 | about travel points or coupons.

00:48:21.960 | You have someone else in your life.

00:48:23.400 | And it might sound simple,

00:48:24.440 | but it really allows your partner

00:48:27.640 | to serve the roles that they wanna serve

00:48:29.800 | and not be forced into roles

00:48:31.720 | that really are not a good fit for them.

00:48:33.880 | And so in my personal life,

00:48:35.400 | I do have a big network of friends and community.

00:48:38.200 | But last year, during the pandemic,

00:48:41.080 | my husband and I went through

00:48:42.200 | this really horrific situation

00:48:44.760 | where he's super healthy, he's a vegan.

00:48:46.920 | And all of a sudden, out of nowhere,

00:48:49.000 | he was diagnosed with this rare form of bone cancer.

00:48:52.280 | And it was the beginning of the pandemic,

00:48:54.360 | just completely surprising, right?

00:48:56.360 | It felt like the world was falling apart.

00:48:57.880 | Our world was falling apart.

00:48:59.720 | And so I was good at asking for help

00:49:01.640 | from different friends, but people couldn't travel.

00:49:04.040 | People couldn't visit us indoors.

00:49:05.640 | It was very isolating, alienating time.

00:49:08.680 | And so Chris, our mutual friend, Kristen,

00:49:11.000 | runs this communal living house called Radish.

00:49:14.760 | And so my husband and I happened to go there for dinner

00:49:17.720 | during the pandemic.

00:49:19.880 | And we were like, "Wow, these people

00:49:21.080 | are doing the pandemic correctly."

00:49:22.840 | They are 14 people living together.

00:49:25.000 | They have dinner together every night.

00:49:27.480 | They are just really supporting each other.

00:49:29.560 | They were in one quarantine pod.

00:49:31.560 | And so we ended up moving into an apartment within Radish

00:49:35.480 | and basically creating this really tight-knit group

00:49:39.640 | of OSOs, other significant others,

00:49:42.280 | to get us through the pandemic,

00:49:43.640 | to get us through his cancer treatment.

00:49:45.720 | Really, they were incredible.

00:49:47.640 | And we even have our WhatsApp group is called OSOs.

00:49:51.560 | And so I feel like for anyone listening,

00:49:53.560 | whether you're going through a tragedy or not,

00:49:55.800 | just investing in those relationships in your life

00:49:58.840 | to take pressure off your partnership

00:50:00.920 | and to invest in friendships and community and colleagues,

00:50:04.440 | that's really one of the secrets to a great relationship

00:50:07.000 | because then it's kind of like a release valve

00:50:09.640 | that just allows the relationship to be what it can be

00:50:12.920 | and doesn't put too much pressure on it.

00:50:14.360 | - Wow.

00:50:15.560 | Well, first off, I'm sorry to hear about your husband.

00:50:17.560 | - Oh, thank you. - I hope he's doing okay.

00:50:18.840 | One other kind of hack that I heard you talk about in the past,

00:50:23.720 | which I'd love to kind of explain a little bit about,

00:50:26.360 | is how you ended up writing the book

00:50:28.200 | and forcing yourself to make progress on something that,

00:50:31.880 | you know, I'm definitely a procrastinator

00:50:34.120 | and you found a way to do that

00:50:36.280 | that I think is a little bit unique.

00:50:37.640 | - Sure, yeah, I would love to talk about that.

00:50:40.040 | So I love the framework from Gretchen Rubin

00:50:43.080 | called the four tendencies.

00:50:44.600 | And that was some of the inspiration for my thing

00:50:46.920 | in the dating tendencies.

00:50:48.280 | And so I'm an obliger,

00:50:50.840 | which means that it's easy for me to hold,

00:50:53.240 | it's easy for me to show up for other people,

00:50:56.680 | but it's less easy for me to show up to myself.

00:50:59.000 | So you and I have this appointment to do a podcast.

00:51:01.480 | Of course, I was going to be here.

00:51:02.680 | I wouldn't have missed it.

00:51:03.800 | But if I put on my calendar later,

00:51:05.800 | do Peloton at 3.30,

00:51:07.320 | there's a high percentage chance

00:51:08.520 | that I will not show up for myself.

00:51:10.440 | So knowing that, I said,

00:51:11.560 | how can I tap into my obliger tendency

00:51:14.760 | to get this book written?

00:51:16.360 | And so what I did is I asked a number of people,

00:51:20.600 | can you host book dinners for me?

00:51:23.000 | I'm going to give you a certain amount of money

00:51:24.680 | towards food.

00:51:25.800 | You get to invite the people.

00:51:27.240 | And what's going to happen is

00:51:28.840 | I'm going to send two chapters of my book

00:51:31.480 | a few days before the dinner.

00:51:33.560 | Then everyone will read the chapters in advance,

00:51:36.040 | come to the dinner and discuss them.

00:51:38.200 | And so the feedback at those dinners was priceless.

00:51:41.480 | I got a lot of great ideas, great terms.

00:51:44.200 | I understood where I was being offensive

00:51:46.680 | or not inclusive,

00:51:47.880 | or I thought a joke was funny and it wasn't.

00:51:50.040 | But perhaps most important

00:51:52.040 | was that I wasn't going to let these people down.

00:51:54.360 | If people were throwing me a dinner party

00:51:56.280 | and come Thursday night to coming to this dinner,

00:51:59.080 | I was 100% going to send them those chapters.

00:52:02.680 | And so I basically tapped into this obliger tendency.

00:52:05.480 | And I said, I might not show up for myself,

00:52:07.160 | but I'll show up for other people.

00:52:08.920 | I had a bunch of these dinners

00:52:10.680 | and that was really how I was able to get my book done,

00:52:14.520 | stick to a schedule and not procrastinate.

00:52:16.920 | And I think it's really because of that hack

00:52:19.080 | that I didn't just have a mental breakdown

00:52:21.400 | and write my book four weeks before it was due.

00:52:24.120 | And in fact, I handed my book in on time,

00:52:26.920 | which based on the feedback from my editor,

00:52:29.320 | I think is actually pretty rare.

00:52:30.840 | But I was like, no,

00:52:31.720 | that deadline is there for a reason.

00:52:33.720 | Once you let the deadline pass,

00:52:35.640 | maybe you'll never hand it in.

00:52:36.920 | And it was super important to me to hit that deadline.

00:52:39.320 | - Wow, yeah.

00:52:41.080 | I only recently have ever even thought about a book

00:52:45.160 | because someone brought it up.

00:52:46.200 | They were like, "Oh, I love the podcast.

00:52:47.560 | Are you ever going to write the book?"

00:52:48.920 | I'm curious as someone who maybe similarly,

00:52:51.800 | I'm not sure if you had aspirations to write a book,

00:52:53.400 | but you've gone through this process.

00:52:55.000 | Does that make you tell people,

00:52:56.840 | "Yeah, you should."

00:52:57.560 | Or is that like, "Man, that was a process.

00:52:59.400 | I don't recommend it."

00:53:00.240 | - It definitely was a life goal of mine.

00:53:04.040 | My big life goals for the last 10 years

00:53:05.880 | were give a TED Talk,

00:53:06.920 | get published in Modern Love in the New York Times,

00:53:10.840 | and write a book that my parents would read.

00:53:13.320 | And I've been really focused on those goals.

00:53:15.080 | And I, now with the book coming out,

00:53:16.600 | have achieved all three of them.

00:53:17.880 | And that's felt great.

00:53:18.680 | And I do think it's a good lesson

00:53:19.960 | that just having goals,

00:53:21.080 | whether or not you hit them exactly,

00:53:22.440 | definitely helps you prioritize your time,

00:53:24.600 | take big risks, believe in yourself, things like that.

00:53:26.920 | Writing a book is so hard.

00:53:30.200 | You're solo, you're sitting alone at a WeWork,

00:53:32.840 | you're editing the same sentence for the 10th time,

00:53:35.240 | you're sick of being by yourself,

00:53:37.480 | you're sick of staring at the screen,

00:53:39.640 | writing a book's really hard.

00:53:41.320 | And so when people call me saying,

00:53:42.840 | "Should I write a book?"

00:53:43.720 | I usually say,

00:53:44.600 | "Only write a book if you can't imagine not writing it,

00:53:48.840 | because otherwise there's just a lot of other media

00:53:52.280 | that you could explore."

00:53:53.320 | So with a podcast,

00:53:54.680 | it's like you and I are recording this now,

00:53:56.200 | I'm sure it'll come out pretty soon,

00:53:57.640 | and then you're gonna get feedback on it.

00:53:59.400 | With a book, you might work on it for three years,

00:54:01.640 | not get any feedback,

00:54:03.160 | and then it comes out.

00:54:04.280 | And so I think there's a lot of things that are,

00:54:07.080 | there are a lot of easier ways

00:54:08.520 | to express your ideas than a book.

00:54:10.600 | And so you should really only write one

00:54:12.920 | if you can't imagine not writing one.

00:54:15.000 | - I like that framework.

00:54:16.760 | So you hit your three goals,

00:54:18.040 | what are the next big three goals?

00:54:19.320 | - I have to think about that.

00:54:23.320 | Yeah, I think, so what, where are we?

00:54:25.160 | We're in November right now.

00:54:26.360 | Yeah, I really need to assess for my 2022 goals,

00:54:30.520 | but I imagine that there'll be personal things

00:54:32.520 | around achieving work-life balance.

00:54:35.240 | I also started a course on Maven.

00:54:37.320 | Are you familiar with Maven?

00:54:38.520 | Yeah, so I'm launching my first course next week

00:54:41.480 | in terms of teaching people more at scale,

00:54:43.880 | like moving from one-on-one coaching

00:54:45.720 | to cohort-based courses.

00:54:48.120 | I have a great person working with me on that.

00:54:50.520 | Yeah, I love the question

00:54:52.520 | and I have to think about like,

00:54:54.040 | what are my next big goals?

00:54:55.320 | I think probably things around like having a TV show

00:54:57.720 | or having a podcast, things like that.

00:54:59.880 | But right now I'm just really having fun

00:55:02.600 | seeing the impact of my book

00:55:04.600 | and getting these great emails about people who said,

00:55:07.000 | in the past, I would have rejected this person

00:55:09.640 | because of his job or because of his height.

00:55:12.360 | And now I'm in the happiest relationship I've ever been in.

00:55:15.640 | And so for now, I feel like I'm actually just really

00:55:17.800 | absorbing the impact of the book and that's been fun.

00:55:20.600 | - Yeah, I mean, I get emails a lot.

00:55:23.800 | It sounds like you do too.

00:55:24.760 | It's really rewarding, I think, to create content

00:55:27.400 | and know that people are listening

00:55:29.080 | and people are enjoying it

00:55:30.600 | and it's having an impact on their life.

00:55:31.960 | So keep it coming, I love it.

00:55:34.600 | We didn't talk about this at all.

00:55:35.640 | I know you work at Hinge,

00:55:36.680 | but what do you think of dating apps

00:55:38.200 | and how they've affected all of this?

00:55:39.480 | - Yeah, so I'm a huge fan of Hinge

00:55:42.440 | and I was before I worked there.

00:55:44.520 | How I ended up working there was

00:55:46.440 | I interviewed Justin McLeod, the CEO of Hinge,

00:55:49.720 | while I was writing my book.

00:55:51.240 | And I walked in very skeptically sort of saying,

00:55:53.560 | your tagline is designed to be deleted.

00:55:56.680 | That doesn't make any sense.

00:55:57.960 | I've worked in tech for a decade.

00:55:59.880 | Why would you want to have your user base leave

00:56:02.520 | when you have to get a bunch of new users?

00:56:04.360 | And his whole thing was,

00:56:05.480 | ever since we adopted that tagline

00:56:07.960 | and really adopted that ethos,

00:56:09.560 | we've grown exponentially.

00:56:12.360 | And that's because it's much more powerful

00:56:14.280 | if your friend through word of mouth says,

00:56:15.880 | "Oh, I met someone on Hinge."

00:56:17.800 | It's a great place for people looking for relationships

00:56:20.280 | than just sort of gamifying it or doing whatever else.

00:56:23.640 | And so I feel like Hinge does a really good job

00:56:27.320 | at slowing people down.

00:56:28.920 | You have to comment on a photo or a written response.

00:56:34.040 | You can only send a certain number of likes per day.

00:56:37.480 | And so Hinge is really where people go

00:56:39.640 | when they're looking for a relationship.

00:56:41.240 | I think it's been fascinating to observe

00:56:44.120 | how dating has changed as people have more options.

00:56:47.560 | So there's certain groups

00:56:48.520 | that are really benefiting from it.

00:56:50.440 | So there's groups called thin markets,

00:56:53.080 | people over 50, the LGBTQ+ community,

00:56:56.440 | they really benefit from dating apps

00:56:58.360 | because previously it might've been very hard

00:57:00.520 | to identify singles in your area

00:57:03.320 | who are in that demographic.

00:57:05.000 | And with the dating app,

00:57:06.040 | it makes it really easy to do that.

00:57:07.480 | - Yeah, an interesting question I have about dating apps.

00:57:11.240 | So I moved to Burlingame,

00:57:13.720 | which is South of San Francisco.

00:57:15.560 | And we have a 15 month old

00:57:17.720 | and we're living in the suburbs.

00:57:19.080 | And a lot of our friends kind of moved farther away

00:57:22.280 | or places that aren't that convenient.

00:57:24.120 | And I realized that some of our closest friends now

00:57:26.200 | are people that we've met in the neighborhood

00:57:27.880 | and that I don't have a lot of like close,

00:57:30.360 | I guess, OSOs in person.

00:57:32.440 | And so I was like, "Gosh, will there ever be an app

00:57:36.440 | that is commonplace for people to meet just people?"

00:57:39.720 | And I thought it was so funny

00:57:41.000 | because my quest on this led me to Bumble,

00:57:44.600 | which has a BFF feature,

00:57:46.280 | which I could never bring myself to actually use,

00:57:49.160 | but it was something that in my mind seemed like,

00:57:52.120 | "Well, if I wanna meet someone,

00:57:54.200 | I could go randomly find them,

00:57:55.640 | but I can't 'cause it's COVID."

00:57:57.000 | Like what's the right way to apply everything about dating

00:58:00.360 | to meeting interesting people

00:58:01.960 | that could become close friends of yours

00:58:04.440 | when we're no longer working in person

00:58:06.760 | and there's less social events happening.

00:58:09.000 | Maybe that comes back sooner,

00:58:10.440 | but it's something I've been thinking about a lot

00:58:12.440 | and didn't know if you had thoughts.

00:58:13.560 | - One of my close friends, his name is Smiley Paswalski,

00:58:17.560 | and he wrote a book called

00:58:18.520 | "Friendship in the Age of Loneliness."

00:58:20.280 | And his book is all about how do you meet friends

00:58:23.880 | in your late 20s and 30s and beyond?

00:58:25.880 | And I think it's just such an interesting premise.

00:58:27.720 | It's basically saying like when you're in high school,

00:58:29.800 | when you're in college,

00:58:30.680 | there's all these people in the same stage of life as you,

00:58:33.240 | everyone's looking to connect,

00:58:34.440 | but at a certain point it becomes really hard.

00:58:37.160 | And so you might be surprised

00:58:38.680 | by the number of emails that I get saying,

00:58:40.680 | "I'd love to have OSOs, but I don't have any friends,"

00:58:43.320 | or "I'd love to date one of my friends,

00:58:44.760 | but first I'd have to make a friend."

00:58:46.440 | And so honestly, I think we are living

00:58:48.200 | in this loneliness pandemic.

00:58:50.440 | And one of the best ways to find a romantic relationship

00:58:54.440 | is to really expand your friendship community

00:58:57.320 | because the more people you know,

00:58:59.160 | the more people they know.

00:59:00.920 | And so I just kind of want to validate

00:59:02.600 | and acknowledge that in general,

00:59:04.040 | when people move to the suburbs or move to a new city,

00:59:06.600 | it can be really hard to meet friends

00:59:08.520 | and that there are some societally accepted ways

00:59:11.640 | to meet potential mates like using Hinge,

00:59:17.000 | but there isn't necessarily such an easy way

00:59:20.200 | to meet friends.

00:59:21.640 | And yeah, I think that's a problem

00:59:22.840 | that people could solve.

00:59:23.720 | - Yeah.

00:59:24.440 | This has been so fascinating.

00:59:26.920 | Thank you so much for joining.

00:59:28.360 | Where should people find you online

00:59:30.040 | and what are you working on right now

00:59:31.640 | that they can check out?

00:59:32.520 | - Thanks, Chris.

00:59:34.040 | Yes, so people can find me @loganyuri

00:59:37.000 | on Twitter and Instagram.

00:59:38.360 | They can go to my website, loganyuri.com.

00:59:40.760 | I really encourage people to take

00:59:43.240 | that three tendencies quiz to find out

00:59:45.320 | what's holding them back from finding love.

00:59:47.400 | And if people are interested in working with me,

00:59:49.480 | they can email me about my cohort-based course

00:59:52.760 | or about one-on-one coaching.

00:59:54.120 | - Awesome.

00:59:55.560 | Thank you so much for being here.

00:59:56.920 | - Thank you.

00:59:57.960 | It was so fun.

00:59:58.720 | - What a fun conversation.

01:00:02.200 | Thank you so much for listening.

01:00:04.280 | I know many of you aren't currently dating,

01:00:06.040 | but I hope this was as interesting for you

01:00:08.200 | as it was for me.

01:00:09.480 | I am so curious about so many things

01:00:11.720 | and I always find it fascinating

01:00:13.480 | to dive deep into an area I know very little about.

01:00:16.840 | If there are any other topics or areas

01:00:18.600 | you think would be fun to dive into on the show,

01:00:20.840 | please send them my way.

01:00:22.520 | I'm Chris@allthehacks.com.

01:00:24.520 | New issue of the newsletter,

01:00:26.280 | all about holiday gifting and all the deals

01:00:28.440 | you can get shopping in person

01:00:30.040 | and online is coming tomorrow.

01:00:31.800 | It also has a few fun, small gifts

01:00:34.360 | I'm really excited to be giving people this year.

01:00:36.840 | If you're not already subscribed,

01:00:38.520 | you can read it online or sign up

01:00:40.680 | at allthehacks.com/email.

01:00:43.240 | That's it for this week.

01:00:45.240 | See you all next week.

01:00:46.680 | (upbeat music)

01:00:49.260 | I wanna tell you about another podcast I love

01:01:01.320 | that goes deep on all things money.

01:01:03.640 | That means everything from money hacks

01:01:05.320 | to wealth building to early retirement.

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01:01:09.720 | and it's much more about building generational wealth

01:01:12.600 | and spending your money on the things you value

01:01:14.760 | than it is about clipping coupons to save a dollar.

01:01:17.640 | It's hosted by my good friend, Andrew,

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01:01:27.000 | I know because I was a guest on the show

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01:01:32.840 | where Andrew shared 16 money stats

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01:01:36.440 | And it was so crazy to learn things like 35%

01:01:39.400 | of millennials are not participating

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01:01:46.760 | The Personal Finance Podcast has something for everyone.

01:01:49.480 | It's filled with so many tips and tactics and hacks

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01:01:57.080 | Just search for the Personal Finance Podcast

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