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00:01:34.640 | Hello, and welcome to another episode of All The Hacks, a show about upgrading

00:01:40.560 | your life, money, and travel all while spending less and saving more.

00:01:44.800 | I'm your host, Chris Hutchins, and I'm excited to have you on my

00:01:48.280 | journey to find all the hacks.

00:01:49.960 | Now I've had a lot of conversations about money and travel, but today's

00:01:54.240 | conversation is something different.

00:01:55.800 | And honestly, it was so amazing.

00:01:57.800 | I had to go back and re-listen to it so I could take notes myself.

00:02:01.040 | It's a conversation with Kwame Christian, all about negotiating, and it's something

00:02:06.000 | he definitely knows a lot about.

00:02:07.720 | Kwame's a practicing attorney.

00:02:09.760 | He's the director of the American Negotiation Institute, a professor of

00:02:14.280 | negotiation at The Ohio State University.

00:02:16.920 | He's the host of the world's most popular negotiation podcast, Negotiate

00:02:21.480 | Anything, and the bestselling author of Finding Confidence in Conflict, How to

00:02:26.200 | Negotiate Anything and Live Your Best Life.

00:02:28.640 | I aspire to have a resume like that one day.

00:02:31.480 | And in our conversation, we'll get into so many different ways that you can

00:02:35.600 | become a better negotiator, not just in business deals or at work, but in

00:02:39.920 | difficult conversations with your partner, your family, or your friends.

00:02:43.240 | I think you're really going to enjoy this one.

00:02:45.120 | So let's jump in.

00:02:45.960 | Kwame, thanks for being here.

00:02:48.880 | Hey, glad to be here, Chris.

00:02:50.600 | Yeah.

00:02:51.520 | So what do you think most people get wrong when it comes to negotiating?

00:02:55.600 | Well, a lot of times when they think about negotiation, they focus on what

00:02:59.840 | are the amazing, insightful things that they can say.

00:03:02.840 | And in reality, negotiation is more about the amazing and

00:03:07.000 | insightful questions that you ask.

00:03:08.760 | If you can just simply start asking better questions, you're going to get

00:03:12.440 | better results in your negotiations.

00:03:14.440 | And obviously, if you're in sales or you're a lawyer like yourself,

00:03:19.600 | negotiating is a part of business.

00:03:21.600 | But I assume this is a skill that is valuable for anyone?

00:03:25.560 | Absolutely.

00:03:27.200 | And so our motto is that the best things in life are on the other

00:03:31.520 | side of difficult conversations.

00:03:33.840 | So when you think about it, when you analyze your life, when you think about

00:03:37.120 | the most impactful moments, the biggest decisions, there's probably a difficult

00:03:41.160 | conversation somewhere in the vicinity of that moment.

00:03:44.360 | So to a large extent, your success and failure, happiness and sadness, all of

00:03:49.080 | those are going to come down to how well or how poorly you have these difficult

00:03:53.080 | conversations.

00:03:53.800 | And that's both in your personal and professional life.

00:03:56.200 | And do you think there are people who are naturally better at negotiating?

00:04:00.640 | Is there kind of a correlated skill set or anything like that?

00:04:04.320 | I will answer that with some hesitation because the answer is obviously yes.

00:04:11.000 | For sure there is.

00:04:12.200 | But I don't want to give people a pass because a lot of times people will just

00:04:15.760 | say, "I'm not a good negotiator."

00:04:17.280 | But I correct them before I answer their question or respond.

00:04:21.120 | I just say, "You're not a good negotiator yet."

00:04:24.080 | And so this reminds me back, I believe, Carol Dweck and Mindset, the book on

00:04:30.040 | Mindset.

00:04:30.600 | You can either have the growth mindset or you can have the fixed mindset.

00:04:33.320 | And a lot of people have a fixed mindset when it comes to negotiation and

00:04:36.640 | difficult conversation or persuasion because they say, "Either I'm born with

00:04:40.000 | it or I don't have it."

00:04:40.920 | And so the people who say, "I'm not born with it," they just say, "I'm going to be

00:04:45.320 | relegated to living a life of failure and doom and bad conversations."

00:04:50.280 | But that's not the case.

00:04:51.480 | And in fact, some of the people who are most likely to say, "I'm not a good

00:04:55.760 | negotiator," they actually have the foundation to become better negotiators.

00:04:59.680 | So for instance, somebody who's more naturally introverted.

00:05:03.160 | So they're not going to have the problem of over-speaking.

00:05:06.560 | They're going to be more likely to be better listeners.

00:05:09.560 | They're going to be more generous in their way of communicating.

00:05:12.600 | And so that's actually perhaps a better personality-based foundation for having

00:05:18.320 | difficult conversations.

00:05:19.480 | How do you think someone should evaluate where they're at today and how big of a

00:05:24.320 | gap they have to close to be a great negotiator?

00:05:26.720 | I like to be outcome-oriented on this, Chris.

00:05:29.960 | So I would think about the outcomes, but it can't just be the outcomes because

00:05:33.720 | sometimes people succeed despite their poor natural tendencies.

00:05:39.840 | So for instance, if you are somebody who is very loud, aggressive, and mean,

00:05:45.040 | you're a bully, you might just say, "Yeah, I always get what I want.

00:05:47.840 | So I'm good at this."

00:05:48.640 | It doesn't necessarily mean that you're good.

00:05:51.920 | It just means that you haven't run into that limitation yet, because eventually

00:05:55.880 | somebody is going to figure out how to deal with a bully.

00:05:57.720 | You're going to have one tool, the tool doesn't work, and now you're kind of lost.

00:06:01.280 | And so you have to think about the outcome, but not just the outcome.

00:06:04.760 | Because when you think about negotiation, yes, of course, it's a process and it's

00:06:08.640 | also the outcome too.

00:06:10.000 | And the outcome can't just be limited to what we're talking about numbers-wise.

00:06:15.400 | So let's say we're talking about a deal.

00:06:17.160 | I know you have your background in finance and some work there.

00:06:21.440 | So for instance, numbers matter.

00:06:22.960 | I can't get around that.

00:06:24.040 | Numbers do matter.

00:06:25.960 | But in the business world, relationships matter too.

00:06:28.640 | So if you're getting a good number in this deal, but damaging the relationship

00:06:32.480 | at the same time, it might have a negative impact on you going forward in your

00:06:36.480 | future negotiations too.

00:06:37.680 | So you have to look at it a little bit more holistically.

00:06:40.240 | I've always heard an adage of a great negotiation is when both parties are a

00:06:45.800 | little dissatisfied walking away.

00:06:47.640 | Is that the right way to look at it?

00:06:49.800 | Or is there a better kind of guide for a successful negotiation?

00:06:54.600 | Yeah, there's definitely a better way to look at it.

00:06:58.440 | Because if you're going in and you're saying yes, with this mentality, you're

00:07:02.600 | saying, yes, both of us will be in pain at the end of it, then you're going to

00:07:07.280 | naturally start to take paths that take you in that direction too.

00:07:10.400 | I think it's really important for you to have a very clear understanding of what

00:07:13.760 | it is that you want and why.

00:07:15.400 | And then also at the same time, go through this process, the negotiation

00:07:20.000 | process, in order to figure out what it is that they want and why.

00:07:25.440 | And not just taking the first thing that they say, right?

00:07:28.160 | So you have to dig beneath the surface to figure that out.

00:07:30.360 | Because what you can find is very unique areas of overlap.

00:07:35.080 | That's where creativity comes into play.

00:07:37.480 | And who knows, depending on the circumstances, we might be able to find

00:07:41.040 | that classic win-win, I'm ambivalent toward that term, but I know people

00:07:45.360 | understand it, that we're all looking for.

00:07:47.560 | Oh, this wasn't as bad for me.

00:07:49.200 | Oh, it didn't hurt you as bad.

00:07:50.640 | That outcome might be there, but we might miss it if we're thinking that both of us

00:07:54.880 | have to suffer a little bit of discomfort along the way.

00:07:57.440 | So I think it's really important for us to get very clear on what we want and why

00:08:00.720 | and what they want and why, and then figure out what path gets us there faster.

00:08:06.520 | So it's kind of like the difference between strategic thinking and tactical

00:08:10.320 | thinking.

00:08:10.840 | So is negotiating more strategic or tactical or kind of both?

00:08:15.360 | It's got to be both.

00:08:16.640 | So I need to have my goal and then I need to reason backwards to figure out what my

00:08:21.120 | overall strategy will be.

00:08:22.680 | And then when it comes to the actual X's and O's during the negotiation, at the

00:08:27.480 | negotiation table, while I'm talking to you, those are the tactics.

00:08:30.960 | And so once I get clarity on my goal and then my strategy, then I can kind of

00:08:35.360 | cherry pick to see which tactics work.

00:08:37.560 | But one tactic might be powerful in general, but not powerful in this

00:08:44.320 | particular circumstance, just because it doesn't meet our strategic goal, too.

00:08:49.120 | So you always have to have the big picture in mind to make sure that you're

00:08:52.080 | picking the right tactic.

00:08:53.080 | Okay.

00:08:54.160 | So I want to talk about the tactics.

00:08:55.600 | I also want to, you mentioned the negotiating process.

00:08:58.120 | I'm curious about your process, but before that, I just want to understand how did

00:09:02.640 | you end up being the negotiation guy, right?

00:09:06.840 | The top-ranked negotiating podcast, like this is your thing.

00:09:10.240 | How did that come about?

00:09:11.400 | Yeah, as you could probably assume, it was pretty weird.

00:09:14.680 | You know, this is not what little kids grow up and say, "I want to be."

00:09:19.360 | And so for me, my undergrad degree is in psychology.

00:09:22.840 | So I went to Ohio State University, a master's, undergrad degree in

00:09:26.600 | psychology, and then minors in foundation of law and Spanish.

00:09:30.040 | I wanted to be a therapist originally, and just because I was a people pleaser.

00:09:34.160 | And so I had to get over that social phobia.

00:09:36.480 | And so I wanted to empower people.

00:09:37.960 | And so then I said, you know what, if I want to empower people and help people,

00:09:41.360 | I could be, I could do that more efficiently by getting into politics.

00:09:45.080 | And so Chris, this is where I started to get astray.

00:09:47.040 | And so that's where I went to law school, did law school and got my master's of

00:09:53.800 | public policy in three years at Ohio State.

00:09:56.360 | And so during that process, I started to learn more about politics and Chris, you

00:10:00.280 | might find this surprising, but I realized that would be an undesirable lifestyle.

00:10:03.880 | I didn't want that for my family.

00:10:06.680 | They deserve better than that.

00:10:07.880 | And so I was that guy getting sworn in after passing the bar, asking himself

00:10:11.920 | what he wants to be when he grows up.

00:10:13.320 | And so for me, I did some civil rights work, leaning on that public policy

00:10:17.840 | degree, health equity, to be more precise.

00:10:20.160 | And then I always had an entrepreneurial bug.

00:10:22.560 | So I started my own practice and built that up for a while.

00:10:25.360 | But I knew that I wanted to discover more about these difficult conversations

00:10:30.720 | because I had a class in law school and it was a negotiation class.

00:10:34.600 | It was the first time I ever took that class or heard about the topic.

00:10:38.040 | And I fell in love because it was the first time I saw psychology used for a

00:10:42.040 | business or legal purpose just so clearly.

00:10:44.640 | And so we had a negotiation competition and my partner and I won the competition

00:10:49.320 | at Ohio State that allowed us to represent the school at regionals in Ottawa, Ontario.

00:10:54.520 | We won that competition as well.

00:10:56.200 | That was with the American Bar Association.

00:10:58.040 | And then we made it to the semi-finals of the national competition.

00:11:00.840 | So I was like, I like this negotiation thing.

00:11:02.960 | Let's, let's figure this out.

00:11:04.080 | Because like I said, as a recovering people pleaser, it was the first time I

00:11:07.840 | really fully appreciated that this was a skill more so than a talent.

00:11:11.320 | I can learn how to do better at this.

00:11:13.440 | And so I said, there are probably other people who are struggling with the same

00:11:16.640 | skill, let's figure this out.

00:11:18.240 | How can I help to empower more people?

00:11:20.120 | So my whole professional career was figuring out how I can get back to

00:11:24.360 | negotiation and how I could make a career out of it.

00:11:27.000 | And so that's what led me to the American Negotiation Institute, because the goal

00:11:31.680 | is to help people learn this skill.

00:11:33.440 | And that's why you see me doing it at scale.

00:11:35.840 | So most other people in the negotiation consulting world, they target their

00:11:40.000 | clients and that's pretty much it.

00:11:41.440 | But our goal, we pride ourselves in putting out as much free content as possible.

00:11:46.200 | So we have the podcast, my show coming out five days a week.

00:11:49.320 | We have ask with confidence, which is all about women in negotiation and leadership.

00:11:53.800 | That comes out weekly.

00:11:54.880 | And now we have a new podcast that's weekly.

00:11:57.000 | It's in Spanish.

00:11:58.200 | It's the only Spanish language negotiation podcast called negociacion desde cero.

00:12:02.840 | And that started on our network of podcasts about three weeks ago.

00:12:07.920 | So it's exciting.

00:12:09.480 | It's, it's fun.

00:12:10.280 | And my team hates when I say this, but you know, it's the free work that really gets

00:12:14.600 | me excited when I get messages on LinkedIn from people talking about how they change

00:12:18.560 | their lives with what we, what they've learned through our content.

00:12:20.960 | That's great.

00:12:21.480 | And then of course the negotiation training and the negotiation consulting pays the

00:12:25.280 | bills.

00:12:25.680 | And you said that, you know, this isn't what every kid wants to grow up doing, but

00:12:30.680 | if you look back at your childhood, can you see glimpses of young negotiating Kwame

00:12:36.200 | trying to get things done that make you realize that maybe this was a path you were

00:12:40.720 | destined to take?

00:12:41.600 | Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:12:43.240 | You definitely can see that because I was always the peacemaker.

00:12:46.720 | I always tried to bring people together to reconcile, help people to reconcile their

00:12:51.240 | differences and things like that.

00:12:52.560 | And so I can definitely see that mentality coming out in different ways during

00:12:58.720 | childhood.

00:12:59.240 | And I've also been, I've always been curious about people in general, humanity.

00:13:03.840 | I find that humans are the most interesting animals on the planet.

00:13:07.040 | So I like to learn as much as I can.

00:13:09.520 | And so that, that is what keeps on pulling me back to psychology.

00:13:13.680 | And that's really been helpful because it helps me to understand things, but also as

00:13:17.880 | I'm teaching other people, it helps them to understand not just what works, but

00:13:22.320 | actually why it works.

00:13:23.760 | Yeah.

00:13:25.200 | And it's funny, I think I've come from negotiating from a perspective of, you

00:13:30.040 | know, it's about getting the deal and a lot of savings and that's kind of the thing

00:13:33.560 | that's driven me.

00:13:34.400 | But it sounds like there's a process that you take when you think about negotiating,

00:13:38.880 | whether it's business or work or pleasure or anything.

00:13:41.320 | What is that process?

00:13:43.120 | So there's a framework that we use that we, we call the compassionate curiosity

00:13:47.720 | framework, and it can be used in any difficult conversation, whether it's at

00:13:51.240 | work or at home.

00:13:52.000 | And so it helps, especially with the highly emotional conversations that will

00:13:57.120 | come up.

00:13:57.600 | Because the thing is, Chris, a lot of times with these negotiations, you have these

00:14:02.000 | really high level strategies that you want to use, these insightful things, your

00:14:05.560 | ration and your logic, you want to pull it and put all that together.

00:14:08.240 | But a lot of times we don't even get the person to a place where they can

00:14:10.960 | psychologically appreciate what it is that we're saying, because we've done such a

00:14:15.160 | poor job of managing the emotions.

00:14:17.000 | And so that's why we wanted to focus on the compassionate curiosity framework as

00:14:21.720 | our marquee contribution to the industry.

00:14:24.320 | And so it's a simple three-step process, helps you know what to say and when to say

00:14:28.680 | it for maximum impact.

00:14:30.040 | So step one is acknowledge and validate emotions.

00:14:33.760 | Step two, get curious with compassion.

00:14:36.160 | And step three is joint problem solving.

00:14:39.520 | And so you can cycle through it based on what you see.

00:14:42.440 | And so it helps to alleviate that emotional distress at the beginning so

00:14:46.000 | people can operate on a higher level.

00:14:47.880 | And then it helps you to gather information, but doing it with a

00:14:51.280 | compassionate tone so people don't get afraid and they don't want to be

00:14:56.760 | forthright and share the information.

00:14:59.160 | Then last step is just working with the other side to figure out what works.

00:15:02.600 | And is there an example you could walk through to kind of bring it to life?

00:15:07.920 | So the reason I still practice is because I want, it's story collection,

00:15:12.640 | Chris, for moments like these.

00:15:14.360 | So I was in this negotiation representing a company, it was a

00:15:18.680 | manufacturing type of situation, multiple six figures on the line and the

00:15:23.200 | relationship between my client and the manufacturer had frayed significantly.

00:15:26.800 | And it got to the point where the CEOs of the respective companies were sending

00:15:31.600 | offensive emails back and forth.

00:15:33.160 | So I'm like, well, you know, this sounds pretty bad.

00:15:36.480 | And so, you know, going into that conversation, obviously we understood

00:15:41.120 | that there was a high level of emotionality on both sides.

00:15:44.440 | Not only was there a lot of money at issue, but they were personally

00:15:47.280 | insulted through the process.

00:15:49.000 | And so the funny thing is, the really funny thing is I went into that and of

00:15:54.840 | course I prepared, but I knew that the core approach was going to be addressing

00:16:00.000 | that emotional side.

00:16:00.960 | Then I had my tactics that I would use down the road, but I was like, this is

00:16:05.960 | going to be my foundation, the compassionate curiosity framework.

00:16:08.680 | And then throughout this whole one hour negotiation, I used one tool, Chris.

00:16:13.480 | Just this, that's it.

00:16:16.120 | And everything was fine.

00:16:17.640 | And so what we did first, I had to coach my client.

00:16:21.640 | I was like, listen, when things get hot, just let me handle this.

00:16:25.440 | I know you're mad.

00:16:26.240 | Let me absorb this for you.

00:16:27.440 | Because if that person were to get upset and jump in, then

00:16:30.760 | everything is kind of lost here.

00:16:32.480 | And so I just started off by asking, how did we get here?

00:16:36.080 | What are you experiencing on your side?

00:16:37.640 | And so they would say their piece, everything was good.

00:16:41.680 | Talking to the engineer first, they were very level headed.

00:16:45.040 | And so there was no emotionality.

00:16:46.920 | So when there's no emotion, then you just skip to step two, which is

00:16:50.000 | getting curious with compassion.

00:16:51.240 | So I was just asking a lot of open-ended questions, summarizing, demonstrating

00:16:54.760 | my understanding, asking more questions.

00:16:56.480 | And so the fuller picture started to appear.

00:16:58.840 | So not only were these people not evil.

00:17:01.760 | Not only were they not negligent, but they were actually, they were actually

00:17:06.640 | going out of their way to perform above and beyond the contract.

00:17:10.960 | They just didn't do a good job of communicating down the line.

00:17:13.880 | They were communicating with our person's project manager, but not the CEO.

00:17:18.080 | So it was like a game of telephone.

00:17:20.120 | And then, so everything's going well.

00:17:22.000 | So I say, okay, great.

00:17:23.040 | We're just going to ask questions.

00:17:24.040 | Then we'll cycle into joint problem solving.

00:17:25.760 | This is, this is kind of smooth.

00:17:26.960 | Then their CEO started talking.

00:17:28.880 | He was pissed.

00:17:31.440 | Cause he's like, okay, this was like 20 minutes in Chris.

00:17:35.040 | And then he says, I have to address these emails and he printed them out

00:17:39.280 | and he was reading verbatim.

00:17:41.360 | And so he was going on and getting, he started to rant.

00:17:44.600 | And so that's an opportunity rationally.

00:17:46.800 | What do you want to do is you emotionally will be drawn towards like counteracting

00:17:51.840 | every point that they make.

00:17:53.120 | I'm going to counter that point.

00:17:54.400 | That's wrong.

00:17:55.120 | I'm going to contest that.

00:17:56.000 | I'm going to contest that.

00:17:56.880 | But here's what you do with the framework.

00:17:59.280 | You don't pay attention as much to the specificity of what they're saying.

00:18:03.960 | Of course you do because you respect the person, but that's not the core.

00:18:06.880 | You listen more for the emotions.

00:18:08.760 | What are the emotions behind that?

00:18:10.360 | I'm going to respond to the emotions rather than the specifics of

00:18:14.240 | what this person is saying.

00:18:15.200 | And so what I did is I took notes and I listened to this rant for about five

00:18:19.760 | minutes and as he's ranting, I'm texting my client, I'm saying, don't say anything.

00:18:23.480 | Don't say anything.

00:18:24.360 | Let me handle this.

00:18:25.640 | And so all I did in response to that rant is I summarized everything.

00:18:30.120 | And then I just said, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like with the

00:18:35.600 | emails that you received, it sounds like you were pretty offended by that.

00:18:39.000 | So when you're acknowledging and validating the emotions, you're

00:18:41.960 | giving an emotional label.

00:18:43.840 | And so they'll either accept or reject it.

00:18:46.440 | And there's a whole psychology behind that.

00:18:48.240 | And so his response was, well, I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say offended, but I would

00:18:54.040 | say just a little bit disheartened and frustrated with the situation.

00:18:58.760 | So even if you're wrong, they'll correct you, which labels the emotion.

00:19:01.640 | And so then he started to explain a little bit more.

00:19:05.040 | You start to see the level of emotionality go down.

00:19:07.880 | So what you do is you stay in this role of acknowledging and validating emotions.

00:19:11.840 | So you summarize and then say it sounds like, or it seems like, and

00:19:15.160 | then they start to calm down.

00:19:16.400 | And I didn't transition into something more substantive until I recognized

00:19:20.120 | that emotionality was going down.

00:19:21.880 | And then I got asked some more questions.

00:19:23.840 | Then we transitioned into problem solving and it was really easy.

00:19:26.920 | And I ended the call by saying, I have a sense, I have a sense of humor.

00:19:32.800 | Listen, don't use humor in negotiations if you're not funny.

00:19:35.360 | But thankfully the market has responded favorably to me in the past.

00:19:39.480 | And so I, we were ended, we ended up and everything was, was good.

00:19:43.320 | And I said, and before we go, gentlemen, I just wanted you to know this.

00:19:47.640 | I am frankly very disappointed in the way that this call went.

00:19:51.600 | I was expecting a lot more emotion and more insults and you

00:19:56.800 | all were just way too reasonable.

00:19:58.280 | So everybody got a good laugh, but really that's it.

00:20:02.280 | But there were so many opportunities there, Chris, to do it the wrong way.

00:20:05.800 | To start going tit for tat on the insults when he started to rehash.

00:20:10.680 | Right.

00:20:11.240 | And a lot of times what we have to do is we have to recognize these little

00:20:14.520 | inflection points in these conversations where you could go one way or the other

00:20:18.440 | way, you can keep it productive, or you could try to make it a right

00:20:21.360 | versus wrong type of thing.

00:20:22.440 | And so that's a really powerful example of how, even though this is a situation

00:20:27.000 | about money, very clearly about dollars and cents, very business oriented.

00:20:30.680 | So just simply cycling through that framework was the right answer because

00:20:35.120 | what was manifesting itself as a substantive issue was really largely emotional.

00:20:40.040 | That's amazing.

00:20:42.440 | I feel like I've been in similar situations, both personal and work, and I

00:20:47.040 | haven't had a Kwame on my side to say, "Hey, be quiet.

00:20:50.080 | Let me ask questions."

00:20:51.400 | Are there tactics you would recommend for people who don't have a master

00:20:56.000 | negotiator sitting at their side to kind of do to prepare to make sure that they

00:21:00.880 | kind of get the same outcome?

00:21:02.200 | Yes, Chris.

00:21:03.400 | And I love the word that you said.

00:21:04.680 | Preparation is my love language.

00:21:06.240 | So if you go to our website, americannegotiationinstitute.com/guide, you

00:21:12.040 | can get access to all of our free negotiation guides that help you prepare

00:21:15.640 | systematically. And so a lot of times, still today, there are times where I

00:21:19.200 | don't feel comfortable, where I still feel a bit afraid or nervous before a

00:21:22.400 | conversation. Usually that's because of a lack of preparation.

00:21:25.680 | And so it gives me a systematic way to prepare beforehand.

00:21:29.080 | So that's number one.

00:21:30.200 | The other thing that I think people don't realize is powerful is proper role

00:21:35.800 | playing. And I say proper because there's some ways to level it up.

00:21:39.960 | So first way, you want to role play twice.

00:21:44.600 | So first, you want to role play as the person that you're going to talk to,

00:21:48.160 | right? So it's like, who am I going to talk to?

00:21:51.040 | I'm not going to role play as myself.

00:21:52.880 | I'm going to role play playing their role.

00:21:55.360 | And so it leads to higher levels of empathy because you'll start hearing

00:21:58.960 | yourself making arguments and rationalizations that you never thought of

00:22:03.200 | before when you're forced to play their role.

00:22:06.000 | And so it helps you to be a lot more prepared and it helps you to empathize

00:22:10.280 | because a lot of times we just go in and we're like, this person is evil or

00:22:13.960 | crazy. Like we just vilify them and write them off.

00:22:16.760 | But when you're playing their role,

00:22:18.400 | it forces you to find validity and legitimacy in what it is that they're

00:22:22.720 | saying. And usually it's there,

00:22:24.360 | but our emotions make it difficult for us to find it.

00:22:27.080 | So role playing as the other side is the best way to do it.

00:22:30.600 | Then you role play as yourself, do a second session.

00:22:33.440 | And so what you tell your partner is this,

00:22:36.480 | you tell them exactly what you're afraid of. What is your biggest fear?

00:22:40.840 | Is this person highly emotional? What kind of emotions?

00:22:43.720 | Or do I need to prepare for tears or do I need to prepare for aggression?

00:22:47.480 | So you tell the other side exactly what your biggest fears are and say, listen,

00:22:51.720 | if they are at a five out of 10,

00:22:54.400 | I need you in this role play to pretend that you are a 20 out of 10.

00:22:58.320 | I want you to take this to a level where it would be unrealistic that somebody

00:23:01.920 | could behave this badly.

00:23:02.960 | And so then whenever you actually have the actual negotiation,

00:23:07.280 | whatever ridiculous thing the person says or does,

00:23:11.640 | you're completely prepared because you're like, man,

00:23:13.840 | I role played with Chris and he was awful to me. You know?

00:23:16.960 | So you're ready for what life has to offer you in that actual conversation.

00:23:22.240 | What about when you don't have time to prepare?

00:23:26.640 | I find that I guess business negotiations, you often, you know,

00:23:30.680 | you know, when they're coming sometimes at home,

00:23:33.560 | relationship negotiations or conflicts,

00:23:36.400 | they don't always come with preparation time,

00:23:39.320 | but you can get into a conversation and that leads to something and you don't

00:23:42.920 | have time to prepare. Is there,

00:23:44.400 | is there anything you like to do in the moment if you haven't prepared to make

00:23:49.280 | it a more successful conversation or negotiation?

00:23:51.880 | So let me start off with a disclaimer that I always get my guests to

00:23:57.040 | say inadvertently, but it happens.

00:24:00.120 | I am much better at doing this in the business world than I am in my personal

00:24:04.880 | life. Because when emotions are tighter, it's like, man,

00:24:08.720 | I look at my performance afterwards. I say, have I ever had a conversation before?

00:24:13.280 | Chris? I don't know. You know, it's, it's weird. And so all of my guests,

00:24:17.040 | they say, Oh yeah, I'm much better in the real world than I am at home.

00:24:20.760 | So let's just say that.

00:24:21.800 | So I think that's something that we have to recognize.

00:24:23.760 | And there are a few reasons why. So number one,

00:24:27.000 | most of the time when we're having conversations at home,

00:24:29.320 | like let's say with a significant other, it's after a long day of work.

00:24:32.240 | So you are already tired.

00:24:34.720 | And when you're tired, that makes it more likely for your natural tendencies to

00:24:38.760 | flow. Because for instance, if you have a diet, if you're well rested, Hey,

00:24:43.040 | you know, I can stay on that diet. But if I'm super tired,

00:24:46.520 | it's much easier for me to smash on some junk food because I don't have that

00:24:51.480 | discipline, that mental discipline.

00:24:52.880 | So that's one of the many reasons why it's harder at home.

00:24:55.800 | And so you have to create some time either pause and just say, Hey,

00:25:00.040 | I'm not prepared to have this conversation right now.

00:25:03.560 | Would you mind if we have it at a specific time? You can just say,

00:25:06.520 | it might be five minutes,

00:25:07.840 | but just be honest with yourself and with the other person.

00:25:10.440 | If they're really pushing you, then what I suggest is do this.

00:25:14.440 | If we're using the language of the compassionate curiosity,

00:25:17.160 | just stay in step one and step two.

00:25:20.040 | I'm not going to try to problem solve right now.

00:25:22.280 | All I'm doing is I'm going to acknowledge and validate your emotions.

00:25:25.680 | And I'm going to get curious with compassion and ask questions so you can

00:25:28.680 | express yourself. I'm going to focus on completely on you.

00:25:32.880 | If I'm speaking less, it's less likely for me to make a mistake.

00:25:35.600 | So that's all I'm going to do in this interaction right now.

00:25:39.000 | And then let's say in the business world, we're very busy.

00:25:42.120 | We are very, very busy. And it's tough to get that time to prepare.

00:25:46.120 | Cause I would tell people, Hey, you know, take an hour or two or prepare it.

00:25:49.080 | They say, where am I supposed to find that? Okay.

00:25:51.480 | So I call this the three minute prep. Okay.

00:25:54.320 | And so sometimes a call's coming up. I didn't have time to prep. That's okay.

00:25:58.160 | This is how you can do it in three minutes. First, ask yourself,

00:26:01.680 | what do I want and why figure that out, write that down,

00:26:05.520 | then ask yourself, what do they want and why? And so use your best guess.

00:26:10.560 | You want to verify that during the conversation. And then you ask yourself,

00:26:13.760 | what are all of the open-ended questions that I could possibly ask in this

00:26:18.280 | conversation? So you want to try to get at least three.

00:26:20.880 | So it's what do I want and why, what do they want and why?

00:26:24.240 | And then as many open-ended questions as you get, you know,

00:26:27.160 | and you can do that in one to three minutes and just doing that alone,

00:26:31.720 | we'll put you in a better mindset and help you to be more prepared for your

00:26:34.480 | conversation.

00:26:35.320 | And why open-ended questions and what are some examples of great open-ended

00:26:41.000 | questions?

00:26:41.760 | Yes. So open-ended questions give you a narrative response.

00:26:44.720 | It's an information game.

00:26:45.920 | Knowledge is power and power in negotiation is leverage.

00:26:49.680 | You don't want to just give it all away,

00:26:51.640 | but you also want to collect as much as you can in preparation beforehand.

00:26:55.480 | And during the conversation, because I think especially us raised with the

00:27:00.200 | internet, it's, it's easy for us to become a little bit,

00:27:03.520 | too overconfident in how much we know, because we can just Google so much,

00:27:08.040 | but the reality is a lot of the most pertinent information is only found within

00:27:12.840 | the confines of their mind. They need to share it with you.

00:27:17.160 | And a lot of times they won't do that without proper prompting.

00:27:19.760 | And so you want to ask open-ended questions because it creates that narrative

00:27:23.160 | response and leads to a lot more explanation.

00:27:25.440 | And so I want people to explain,

00:27:27.840 | I want them to expand and share what they're thinking in with as many words as

00:27:31.920 | it takes for them to get there. When it comes to some of my favorite questions,

00:27:35.440 | especially in transactional negotiations,

00:27:38.080 | this is one of the most powerful questions that you could ask.

00:27:41.920 | And especially Chris,

00:27:43.400 | given some of the hacks that you've told me about where it comes to saving money,

00:27:46.880 | you would love this question too. It's simply what flexibility do you have?

00:27:50.960 | What flexibility do you have?

00:27:53.440 | So think about it as just like in a marketplace type of scenario,

00:27:57.600 | or you're at a hotel trying to negotiate an upgrade or whatever.

00:28:00.480 | Just ask what flexibility do you have? Because number one, it's open-ended.

00:28:04.000 | So they have to elaborate. Number two,

00:28:05.760 | it has the assumption that there is flexibility. We're saying, Hey,

00:28:09.720 | I know you have flexibility. You know, you have flexibility. Just what is it?

00:28:13.760 | What does it look like? Right? And, and so it's non-threatening as well,

00:28:17.800 | because it's not an aggressive type of statement that puts people on the

00:28:21.280 | defensive, just very conversational and open.

00:28:23.920 | So that's one of my favorite questions.

00:28:26.400 | And then the other ones don't actually end in question marks.

00:28:29.240 | So tell me more about this or help me to understand that those types of things

00:28:34.280 | are other great sentence formulations for a lot of information.

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00:31:44.800 | So it sounds like if you ask a lot of open-ended questions,

00:31:48.560 | you're not doing a lot of talking yourself. Is that the goal?

00:31:51.560 | Is there a target percentage for how much you want to be talking versus the

00:31:55.160 | other person? And is there any data behind why you'd want to do this?

00:31:58.400 | Yes and yes. So my, I call it the 70/30 rule.

00:32:02.920 | So I try to speak only 30% of the time and get the other person talking 70% of

00:32:07.760 | the time. In my casual conversations,

00:32:10.200 | I use it as practice and I try to see how extreme I can get that ratio.

00:32:13.920 | Can I get it 90/10, 80/20? Let's see. Cause every, every conversation is practice.

00:32:19.320 | I want to do well in these little conversations.

00:32:21.800 | So the big ones really matter. So I'm ready. And so the science behind this,

00:32:25.200 | a book reference is The Code of Trust by Robin Dreek,

00:32:29.760 | former FBI agent, and his job was to flip spies.

00:32:34.520 | And so one of the things he talked about was with studies,

00:32:37.440 | the more you let people talk,

00:32:38.640 | especially if you let them talk about things that they enjoy,

00:32:40.920 | it creates a lot of dopamine in their system.

00:32:43.880 | And they'll associate that positivity with you.

00:32:46.000 | That's what ends up creating more trust. So it becomes self-fulfilling.

00:32:50.480 | So you get, let them talk. They feel better about themselves.

00:32:53.360 | They feel understood and they start to like you more during the process.

00:32:57.280 | The more that they like you and trust you during the process,

00:32:59.840 | the more vulnerable they will be and more vulnerability leads to more

00:33:04.600 | information as well. And so there, there is a lot of science behind it.

00:33:08.400 | The more they talk, the better they feel.

00:33:09.840 | Wow. Now it sounds like you could use this for bad.

00:33:15.160 | Is there something you keep in the back of your mind to try to make sure,

00:33:18.480 | you know, as you said earlier, a negotiation isn't just about winning?

00:33:22.520 | Yeah. And so I have, I have to redefine winning.

00:33:26.760 | That's really what it is because winning has to deal with the outcome for sure.

00:33:30.600 | That's a part of it.

00:33:31.440 | But I think you can win every single difficult conversation if you think about

00:33:35.600 | it in this way.

00:33:36.440 | So goal number one is to put myself in the best position for success.

00:33:40.560 | So what is it that I need to do or say to put myself in the best position?

00:33:44.960 | I'm going to do the best that I can't, can't win them all. You know,

00:33:48.560 | I can't guarantee that somebody is going to respond the right way.

00:33:51.120 | I can't guarantee that the numbers work out,

00:33:53.080 | but I can guarantee that I can choose the right tools at the right time based on

00:33:58.080 | proper information. I can do the best that I can.

00:34:00.480 | Then the second thing is if I'm improving during the process,

00:34:03.720 | because sometimes we might be tempted to take some shortcuts,

00:34:07.000 | like people might be tempted to lie in the process or something like that,

00:34:10.480 | but is that improving your skills? No, it's not.

00:34:13.400 | And so I think about every conversation is practice.

00:34:16.400 | So if I'm putting myself in the best position for success and I'm improving my

00:34:20.560 | skills in the process that I'm winning.

00:34:22.560 | And so especially as a competitive person,

00:34:24.600 | I really had to divorce myself from the outcome and marry myself to the process.

00:34:29.000 | That's really what it comes down to.

00:34:30.560 | And if you become like too focused on the outcome,

00:34:34.280 | then it can lead you astray. And then to your point about in the wrong hands,

00:34:39.000 | it could be used for evil. You are 100% right.

00:34:43.000 | And that's why I tell people persuasion is just a tool.

00:34:45.880 | It depends on how you use it because persuasion and manipulation are the same

00:34:49.960 | thing, but it comes down to intent.

00:34:52.160 | And so what I did in my research is I figured out that all of your

00:34:57.480 | thousands of listeners, I know that they're all good people.

00:35:00.440 | So I feel comfortable sharing these skills because your people use it for good,

00:35:05.240 | not evil.

00:35:06.080 | Okay.

00:35:06.960 | So that means everyone listening needs to make Kwame proud and use this only for

00:35:10.600 | good things like free upgrades and big discounts.

00:35:13.440 | So one other tactic I'd love your take on,

00:35:15.720 | should you always be making the first offer in a negotiation?

00:35:19.640 | Yeah. So you will hear a lot of people say, always make the first offer.

00:35:23.560 | And then you'll hear other people say, never make the first offer.

00:35:26.400 | And I will say, never listen to absolutes. Okay.

00:35:31.200 | You know, I'm a lawyer. So it depends. And it depends on this one thing.

00:35:34.400 | So if you have as much information or more

00:35:39.480 | information than the other side, then you make the first offer.

00:35:43.520 | If you have less information,

00:35:45.680 | then you let them make the first offer and then counter because every offer has

00:35:50.440 | to be substantiated by information. And that's how you learn.

00:35:53.880 | And so one of the things that you have to keep in mind is that anchoring is a

00:35:58.160 | legitimate and powering tool.

00:36:00.000 | And so the way that I describe it is anchoring is the most aggressive request

00:36:04.160 | that you can legitimately justify.

00:36:05.920 | There's a lot of science behind why there is first mover advantage in

00:36:10.000 | negotiation, because it sets the reference point for the conversation.

00:36:13.600 | Lots of fun studies on that too,

00:36:15.520 | but just know that there is a strategic advantage to making a competent first

00:36:19.840 | offer. So if you have that information, then drop that anchor,

00:36:23.000 | make that first offer.

00:36:24.000 | But it is too risky if you don't know as much as the other side,

00:36:28.760 | it's kind of like a job offer type of negotiation where they say, Hey,

00:36:32.440 | Chris, we like you.

00:36:33.280 | What will it take for us to bring on the team? And you're like, all right,

00:36:35.960 | you know, if you could pay me $200,000, I think that'd be great.

00:36:39.000 | And they're like, yeah, absolutely. We can do that. Feel dumb.

00:36:44.240 | You say, what could I have asked for? I was clearly in the wrong range,

00:36:47.800 | you know? So that's the mentality behind it.

00:36:50.520 | Yeah.

00:36:51.880 | And if you don't have enough information to make that competent first offer,

00:36:56.080 | and someone comes back to you with something that you think is crazy,

00:36:59.440 | how do you react?

00:37:00.680 | So there are a couple of things. So with the initial reaction,

00:37:04.520 | you have to make sure that you make it clear that this is not in

00:37:09.600 | the range of possibility. So you have to set that expectation,

00:37:13.000 | because a lot of times people will throw out an anchor and they would try to

00:37:16.040 | read your body language, see how you're responding to it. Okay. Hey, you know,

00:37:20.200 | they didn't like it, but they didn't fall out of the chair.

00:37:23.160 | So I guess I'm in the range. Let's, let's keep on hammering home this anchor.

00:37:26.320 | And so what you want to do is you want to express clearly, Hey,

00:37:29.240 | this is not in the range, but I think if we have a conversation,

00:37:32.040 | we could try to figure out a way to bridge this gap. And so for me,

00:37:35.480 | with an anchor that is outside the range of possibility,

00:37:38.360 | I'm almost going to act like it never happened. And here's why,

00:37:41.880 | because there's significant psychological consequences because of the science of

00:37:45.840 | anchoring, it sets that reference point. And the more you talk about the anchor,

00:37:49.680 | the more legitimate it becomes,

00:37:52.360 | the more concrete and crystallized it becomes in the minds of everybody around.

00:37:56.120 | So that's why when I'm telling people and teaching them how to make an offer and

00:38:00.520 | using the anchoring technique,

00:38:02.360 | I tell them that you want to be creative about saying that anchor over and over

00:38:06.240 | and over again, because they're becoming more and more comfortable with it.

00:38:09.920 | The more times you talk about it. So when they're on the receiving end,

00:38:13.360 | I'm like, we need to pretend like that never even happened. Right.

00:38:16.480 | And one of the strategic mistakes that people make is that when somebody

00:38:21.600 | gives them an anchor that is aggressive, they try to attack the anchor directly,

00:38:26.040 | which is the common sense thing to do. Hey, that was preposterous.

00:38:29.680 | I need to attack it and let you know that that will not fly right now.

00:38:33.960 | Here's why that is problematic because it creates a scenario called psychological

00:38:38.680 | entrenchment. This was explored the best by Deepak Malhotra in the book,

00:38:43.680 | Negotiation Genius.

00:38:45.520 | So what ends up happening is that when you attack an anchor or an offer directly

00:38:50.400 | too forcefully,

00:38:51.280 | what ends up happening is the other person in order to save their dignity,

00:38:55.360 | they have to defend themselves and the anchor.

00:38:57.760 | And so what you're doing is you're forcing them to create arguments for why

00:39:03.080 | that anchor is legitimate because you're telling them that it is illegitimate.

00:39:09.040 | So you want to shift the conversation away from the specifics of that anchor and

00:39:14.040 | instead try to figure out the rationale behind it.

00:39:17.440 | What problem are they trying to solve with that anchor? Okay.

00:39:22.120 | So I'm going to try to find a different way to solve those problems that is not

00:39:27.240 | so threatening or damaging to my business.

00:39:30.080 | Yeah. We recently purchased a home.

00:39:32.360 | And when you're negotiating the price of a home,

00:39:35.360 | it's maybe one of the bigger personal negotiations people are doing.

00:39:38.360 | And sometimes you might think that that first anchor is about money,

00:39:43.600 | but in reality we learned by asking the real estate agent what was really

00:39:48.200 | important to the, to the client that no,

00:39:50.560 | actually the most important thing was about finding a good family and closing

00:39:55.120 | quickly. So it's like, Oh, okay, now we know what's really important.

00:39:58.880 | And so instead of saying the price is wrong, we said, Hey,

00:40:02.720 | here's what we can do focused on the things that were important to them.

00:40:06.400 | And then let the price be secondary.

00:40:08.920 | And it ended up being a little bit more favorable outcome because we were willing

00:40:13.800 | to move quickly. And so sometimes you can ask directly.

00:40:17.320 | Sometimes if you're dealing with a middle party, like a real estate agent,

00:40:20.760 | you could just ask and say, Hey,

00:40:22.000 | what's really important to the seller or the buyer?

00:40:24.880 | Do they want to close the deal quickly?

00:40:26.600 | Do they want to make the most amount of money?

00:40:28.520 | Are they looking for lower risk, like no contingencies?

00:40:32.120 | Do they just want to sell it to a family that'll treat the home right?

00:40:34.880 | In which case you should probably write a letter.

00:40:36.680 | I tend to say the letter is free. So even if you don't know if they care,

00:40:39.520 | just write the letter. Yeah.

00:40:40.680 | So that's a personal example where what I thought was important in the anchor was

00:40:44.960 | the price. And it turns out it was important of course,

00:40:48.120 | but it wasn't the most important thing.

00:40:49.960 | Exactly. Yep. And that's the thing, our assumptions will often lead us astray.

00:40:54.400 | So that's why it's good. Like you did in that example,

00:40:57.120 | you treat it not as an assumption,

00:40:59.120 | but more a hypothesis where you go in there saying it's likely to be true,

00:41:03.160 | but I'm going to still test it during this conversation by still staying

00:41:06.360 | curious.

00:41:07.200 | Yep. And when do you walk away from a negotiation?

00:41:11.040 | So walking away is an art and a science. So we'll,

00:41:15.160 | we'll talk about when and how,

00:41:16.640 | so when it depends on how much you need the deal.

00:41:20.280 | And it also depends on how much time you have to close the deal,

00:41:24.200 | because there's some times where I say, you know,

00:41:26.080 | if I invested about a couple more months,

00:41:29.160 | I think I could get this across the finish line. But the question is,

00:41:32.160 | do I want to invest a couple of more months?

00:41:34.520 | Because there's an opportunity cost when I'm spending my time doing this.

00:41:38.000 | And so you have to have in your mind, a certain kind of a shot clock saying,

00:41:43.000 | how many meetings and whatnot will I go through before calling this off?

00:41:46.800 | And depending on the situation, you want to let them know I'm doing a mediation

00:41:51.040 | between two business partners, trying to negotiate a business divorce.

00:41:54.400 | So I told them, Hey, we'll do these one hour long sessions.

00:41:57.240 | I'll talk to you each individually. We'll do about two, two or three rounds.

00:42:01.160 | And then at that point, if we haven't gotten to an agreement,

00:42:04.720 | I'm going to be a little bit more aggressive with how much I push you.

00:42:07.600 | And if it still doesn't work, then we'll call it.

00:42:09.640 | So sometimes it's appropriate to let people know what your stopping point is.

00:42:13.320 | But oftentimes strategically,

00:42:14.800 | it doesn't make as much sense because that might be a significant tell you have

00:42:18.080 | to determine based on the situation.

00:42:19.640 | But I think it's important to recognize that depending on your alternatives,

00:42:23.360 | that might be the best option because sometimes the worst outcome is a deal that

00:42:27.600 | should have never happened.

00:42:28.800 | So walking away always needs to be a viable option for everybody at the table.

00:42:33.600 | Now, when it comes to how to do it,

00:42:36.080 | you don't just want to throw your hands up, walk away.

00:42:38.840 | And then I say, I'm never coming back. Here's what I say,

00:42:42.760 | based on the way that the circumstances are right now,

00:42:45.560 | this isn't a deal that couldn't work for us. But I want to say to you,

00:42:50.080 | if anything changes on your end, Chris, let us know.

00:42:52.840 | And we would be more than happy to continue the conversation.

00:42:55.560 | And similarly, if anything changes on our end, we'll do the same.

00:42:58.560 | So that way,

00:42:59.600 | if the other side was bluffing and they didn't think you were going to walk away.

00:43:02.640 | Now you did now they don't look like losers coming back to the table.

00:43:05.880 | I gave them an out. They can just say, Oh man,

00:43:08.160 | I talked to my CFO and she told me that we could do X, Y, Z now. Yep. Cool.

00:43:12.400 | All right. Now we're back to it.

00:43:13.520 | So they can come back without losing their dignity and respect.

00:43:16.240 | They don't lose face. And similarly,

00:43:18.600 | I can do the same because things may have legitimately changed in a couple of

00:43:22.360 | weeks. And then I could revisit the conversation too.

00:43:24.400 | That's amazing. I feel like I just want to go start negotiating something.

00:43:28.720 | Are there, are there things you think people don't negotiate, but should?

00:43:34.040 | Yeah. The bigger the dollar amount, the more there is to negotiate.

00:43:37.000 | I remember in law school, I was bored and clearly I just wanted to win.

00:43:41.000 | I negotiated a $7 lamp on, on, uh,

00:43:45.800 | on Craigslist and got it down to five, you know? Okay.

00:43:49.480 | So that was dumb practice, but it worked.

00:43:51.000 | But sometimes there are things that we just take for granted.

00:43:54.240 | And so now I mentor kids who are going into law school and I tell them,

00:43:58.000 | you can negotiate your scholarship package.

00:43:59.720 | 100% of the kids that negotiate their scholarship package, get a better deal.

00:44:03.920 | 100%. And they, all they do is they send an email.

00:44:08.600 | So anybody listening and you want to negotiate your scholarship package,

00:44:11.280 | especially to law school, this is what you do. So you say, Hey,

00:44:14.440 | I appreciate the scholarship offer and admission, uh, as you know,

00:44:18.040 | finances are going to be a major decision for us.

00:44:20.520 | And we've received a lot of different offers. And with that,

00:44:24.440 | I'm wondering what flexibility do you have on your scholarship offer?

00:44:27.840 | And most of the time people, they'll come back and say, yeah,

00:44:31.560 | we can give you an extra 5k per year. They just have it.

00:44:35.200 | They just have it. And so that's why asking that simple question,

00:44:39.200 | what flexibility that do you have? It is it's magical.

00:44:44.040 | Okay. So scholarships,

00:44:45.360 | are there any other things that people might miss out on the opportunity to

00:44:49.240 | negotiate that you've seen success with?

00:44:51.800 | Yeah. So we have scholarships of cars are a big one.

00:44:55.120 | We have a car negotiation guide, FYI,

00:44:57.200 | for people who might be buying their next car.

00:44:59.400 | You can go through that guide and prep.

00:45:00.960 | I think the biggest ones that people miss are the everyday negotiations with

00:45:04.120 | family and friends.

00:45:05.120 | And so the definition that we use for negotiation is anytime you're in a

00:45:10.320 | conversation and somebody in the conversation wants something.

00:45:13.720 | And so with that definition, you're negotiating all the time, right?

00:45:17.360 | And so for instance, with childcare, with my wife,

00:45:21.400 | she wanted to have another kid. I said, kids are disruptive.

00:45:24.520 | We need to talk about this, figure out what, what are these,

00:45:27.680 | what are these lines going to be?

00:45:29.080 | And so for me with what I do when I'm consulting on deals or doing negotiation

00:45:34.120 | trainings or conflict resolution trainings,

00:45:36.280 | I have to get on the plane and travel. And so I said, listen,

00:45:39.360 | I need to be able to travel at this,

00:45:41.000 | at least this many times per month in order for my business to be in a good

00:45:45.480 | spot. And so in order for us to do that,

00:45:47.480 | we need to figure out what childcare looks like for that to not be untenable

00:45:51.920 | for you. And so instead of just saying, Hey Kwame,

00:45:55.120 | do you want to have another kid? You're outvoted your mom, your dad,

00:45:58.720 | my mom and our son, one another kid. So you do want another one? I'm like, ah,

00:46:02.400 | fine. Okay. We'll do it. You know, that's not a negotiation.

00:46:05.000 | We can stop and say, listen, we can do this,

00:46:07.720 | but we have to have a conversation about these types of things.

00:46:10.080 | And so I don't think enough people recognize that these conversations are not

00:46:14.520 | just yes or no.

00:46:15.560 | There's a lot more substance that can be gained through these interactions.

00:46:19.560 | So we've talked about a lot of ways that people can improve their skills.

00:46:22.800 | Are there any other common mistakes you see people make when they're negotiating?

00:46:26.720 | I think one thing that people miss is the fact that they don't

00:46:31.960 | understand the difference between what somebody says that's emotional

00:46:36.800 | versus what they really mean. So for instance, if you're really upset,

00:46:41.480 | there's a difference between facts and feelings,

00:46:43.800 | but they feel the same at the same time. Right?

00:46:46.520 | And so I might say something very emotionally that is factually

00:46:50.880 | incorrect, but it feels right at that moment.

00:46:53.880 | And so a lot of times people will contend with that and try to chop it down.

00:46:57.960 | And they would just attack that thing. And then they start to dig their healing.

00:47:02.200 | They start to fight back and they start to fight back.

00:47:05.080 | Not because it's incorrect, but on principle. Right?

00:47:08.640 | And so I think it's important to recognize that we often invite the responses

00:47:13.560 | that we want to see the most by our own responses.

00:47:17.440 | And so that's where the framework comes in handy because your response to the

00:47:21.640 | emotions, not the facts.

00:47:22.920 | And so the people are able to let go because their ego doesn't get wrapped up in

00:47:27.120 | it as much because they don't feel as threatened.

00:47:29.520 | But if you make them feel safer emotionally through the process,

00:47:33.360 | then they don't feel as though they need to cling on to these ideas so tightly.

00:47:37.760 | So earlier, you talked about your family and your children.

00:47:41.160 | What about negotiating with kids?

00:47:43.720 | Well, here's the thing, Chris, the simpler you keep it, the easier it is.

00:47:47.040 | And so I use the framework with my family all the time when I'm on my game,

00:47:51.800 | when I'm on my game, I do.

00:47:53.840 | That's why it's so good to practice with them because you're usually tired and

00:47:57.640 | you're not wanting to do it the right way.

00:47:59.280 | And so I want to focus on that conversational habit.

00:48:03.200 | So with Kai, you know, he's five, five-year-old kids don't want to go to bed.

00:48:07.680 | They never do.

00:48:08.720 | And so sometimes he'll fight and doesn't want to go to bed.

00:48:12.400 | And so I'll just use the framework.

00:48:14.040 | So I would say, Kai, it's, it sounds like you don't want to go to bed right now.

00:48:17.880 | No, I don't want to go to bed. Okay. That makes sense.

00:48:20.640 | Can you tell me a bit more about that? And he says, no,

00:48:23.600 | I don't want to go to bed right now.

00:48:24.920 | I want to stay up and I want to cuddle with you and mommy on the couch and watch

00:48:27.960 | TV until it gets later until you all go to bed. Oh, okay.

00:48:32.160 | So it sounds like the reason you don't want to go to bed is because you want to

00:48:35.960 | spend time with me and mommy. Is that right? Yeah, no, that makes sense.

00:48:39.360 | And we like spending time with you. And so he started to calm down.

00:48:42.440 | Now I cycle to the next thing. So what is it about going to bed?

00:48:46.320 | That's important. He said, well, I have to go to bed so I can get smart. Okay.

00:48:50.880 | What else, what else is good about getting sleep? He said, well,

00:48:53.880 | if I go to sleep, then I could grow up and be big and strong. Like, like you,

00:48:57.400 | I said, okay. So what do you think we should do right now?

00:49:01.520 | Uh, I think I, I should probably go to sleep. Okay. Sounds good. Kai.

00:49:06.640 | I'll see you later. Yeah. And you know, it doesn't work every time,

00:49:10.320 | but it's all about improving your winning percentage.

00:49:12.360 | And I think it's especially powerful with children too,

00:49:15.080 | because the way I think about parenting is that I'm parenting towards

00:49:19.120 | obsolescence. And what I mean by that is at some point I need to become obsolete.

00:49:23.400 | I need to teach him how to become a free thinker and come to conclusions by

00:49:27.000 | themselves. And when you think about the psychology of self-esteem,

00:49:30.720 | self-worth and confidence, things like that,

00:49:32.720 | oftentimes they say that you as the parent,

00:49:35.200 | your voice in many ways becomes their internal monologue.

00:49:38.440 | And so I don't want it to be the judgmental father who's just

00:49:43.440 | telling people what to do as a dictator.

00:49:45.640 | I want it to be that compassionately curious.

00:49:49.320 | You see I'm on brand with compassionate curiosity.

00:49:51.680 | I want it to be a compassionately curious voice.

00:49:54.560 | That's asking questions that helps him to come to the right conclusion himself.

00:49:58.000 | I'm teaching him how to make good decisions through that process too.

00:50:01.560 | So it's good practice for me to make sure that I keep my skills sharp and

00:50:06.400 | really good thinking practice for him.

00:50:09.000 | So he can feel as though he's in control because ultimately I want him to

00:50:13.920 | make the right decision. I don't want him to do what I want to do.

00:50:17.720 | What I want him to do simply because he was forced.

00:50:21.400 | Yeah, that's fantastic.

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00:51:40.200 | up your cooking at home? If not, definitely go back and give it a listen.

00:51:43.840 | But one of his top hacks was using the microwave more. I'll admit,

00:51:48.120 | I was a skeptic at first,

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00:52:46.600 | I just want to thank you quick for listening to and supporting the show.

00:52:51.720 | Your support is what keeps this show going to get all of the URLs, codes,

00:52:56.960 | deals, and discounts from our partners.

00:52:59.240 | You can go to all thehacks.com/deals.

00:53:02.520 | So please consider supporting those who support us. So, you know,

00:53:07.040 | using your children as an opportunity to practice some of these compassionate

00:53:11.040 | curiosity tactics. Sounds like a really good idea.

00:53:14.560 | Help them learn to think on their own and maybe avoid some arguments.

00:53:18.360 | Are there other tactics you use throughout your day to just practice better

00:53:22.080 | communication and negotiation?

00:53:23.920 | Yeah.

00:53:25.040 | So one of the things that I've really started to practice recently is

00:53:30.040 | validation and validation is a concept that most people don't understand.

00:53:35.000 | I know I didn't understand it. I thought I did, but I didn't.

00:53:39.640 | So here's an example, Chris, cause we hear people say, Hey,

00:53:42.120 | I want people to hear me. I want to be heard. I want people to listen to me,

00:53:45.720 | but the reality is they don't really want that.

00:53:48.960 | And it sounds very weird to say that people don't want to be heard or listened

00:53:53.400 | to, but it's the truth. So watch.

00:53:55.200 | So imagine if we're having a conversation and during the conversation,

00:53:58.680 | I'm on my phone the whole time. I'm on my phone, looking, scrolling,

00:54:03.400 | clearly paying attention and using my phone in the middle of the conversation.

00:54:06.880 | What will you accuse me of doing during that time?

00:54:10.440 | Not paying attention.

00:54:11.200 | Not paying attention. You're not listening to me. We feel disrespected. Right?

00:54:14.720 | And so we would say the solution is to listen to me. Right?

00:54:18.280 | So then what if, while looking down at the phone,

00:54:22.040 | what if I repeat exactly what you said to me verbatim,

00:54:26.360 | just a perfect transcript, how do you feel now?

00:54:29.360 | I I've been in this circumstance and my answer is okay, fine.

00:54:33.800 | You were listening, but it doesn't feel like you're really present here right now.

00:54:37.120 | Exactly. Right. So we say, yeah, we want to be listened to.

00:54:40.600 | We want to be heard, but that's really not what we want.

00:54:43.200 | We want something more.

00:54:44.400 | And that's where validation is because you can't give people that validation if

00:54:49.200 | you haven't listened to them. So listening is part of it,

00:54:52.680 | but validation takes it a step further.

00:54:54.400 | Validation shows that you care about the other person. That's one piece of it.

00:54:59.400 | But validation also, you have to focus on the root word here too,

00:55:03.400 | of valid validity.

00:55:05.200 | They're also trying to find that validity in what it is that you are saying.

00:55:09.480 | So in order to fully validate somebody, you need to, as best as you can,

00:55:13.720 | put yourself in their position and see things from their perspective.

00:55:17.880 | And I even mean in a physical sense,

00:55:19.840 | because it helps you to understand on a completely different level.

00:55:22.880 | So the first time I've really fully understood validation was when I did it

00:55:27.080 | with Kai, my son, when he was two,

00:55:29.480 | he had this habit that I thought was horrible where he would try to trip me.

00:55:33.600 | I'm like, I'm trying to walk places and he's just trying to trip me.

00:55:37.040 | And then I looked down at him and he's laughing and smiling. I'm like,

00:55:39.480 | why this is dangerous. What are you doing?

00:55:41.120 | Why would you do this to me all the time? So I said, no, Kwame,

00:55:45.000 | here's what we're going to do.

00:55:45.760 | We're going to look at this through his perspective and his perspective alone,

00:55:50.440 | remove myself from the process. And so I said, okay, I am, I am not six two.

00:55:55.520 | I am two foot six. I'm looking up at this giant and I love this guy.

00:55:59.920 | What am I going to do? I'm going to hug him.

00:56:01.760 | The only thing I can hug are his legs. That's the only thing I'm close to.

00:56:05.520 | So he's not trying to trip me. He's trying to hug me.

00:56:08.840 | And that's the best he can do. And once I realized that,

00:56:12.480 | I realized this isn't an act of aggression. It's an act of love.

00:56:15.680 | And so it's not until I fully validated what he was doing and actually sought to

00:56:20.920 | find the validity and what he was doing and what he was saying that I truly was

00:56:24.680 | able to understand. And so validation is something that I'm really, really,

00:56:29.000 | really working on trying to see things completely from their perspective,

00:56:32.200 | not trying to put myself in their shoes because it doesn't matter what I would

00:56:36.920 | do if I were in their position. I'm not in their position.

00:56:39.600 | I'm trying to figure out given their upbringing,

00:56:41.720 | given how they're seeing the situation, what do they see? What do they think?

00:56:45.760 | How do they feel? And once you take it to that next level,

00:56:48.960 | that's when you have higher levels of communication and connection.

00:56:52.960 | That's great. What about rejection therapy?

00:56:56.080 | Any thoughts on using that for practice?

00:56:58.160 | Yes. So I'm a recovering people pleaser.

00:57:01.960 | And so rejection was something that I always feared.

00:57:05.520 | So I would give in and give people what they want, those types of things.

00:57:08.400 | And so there's a great Ted talk called the 100 Days of Rejection.

00:57:13.120 | And the guy talks about how he, I think it was in like an entrepreneur,

00:57:18.400 | he was seeking investment and he was afraid of asking for the investment

00:57:21.840 | because he didn't want to get rejected.

00:57:23.080 | So he would just find different ways to get rejected.

00:57:25.640 | So it's asking for things that you don't think you have any right to.

00:57:28.960 | You don't think you're going to get,

00:57:30.200 | but asking anyways in the hope that you get rejected.

00:57:33.760 | So you start to develop a thicker skin because if you start to diminish that

00:57:38.280 | fear of rejection, if you start to recognize that there's life after rejection,

00:57:42.520 | then it makes you feel a lot better taking that step and being courageous and

00:57:46.560 | asking for what you feel like you want and you deserve.

00:57:49.320 | And so that's something that I'd started to do as well.

00:57:51.960 | And I had a similar experience as the guy in the Ted talk.

00:57:54.840 | You start to get a lot of yeses.

00:57:56.760 | I didn't think this would work.

00:57:58.440 | Wow. I was trying to get a no and you just said yes to me.

00:58:01.160 | That's crazy.

00:58:02.000 | And so you start to become a lot more resilient and you start to become a lot

00:58:06.480 | bolder when it comes to stepping up and asking for what you want.

00:58:09.720 | Yeah, this, you can use it at the grocery store.

00:58:13.320 | You can use it at any store.

00:58:15.120 | I shared in a previous episode,

00:58:17.520 | I always use the live chat on any website I'm about to buy something on.

00:58:22.320 | And I say, hey, I'm about to check out on your site.

00:58:24.720 | You have any special coupon codes or discounts?

00:58:27.400 | And I'm actually surprised about half the time it works.

00:58:30.480 | But but so I say, you know, ask for a deal every time.

00:58:34.600 | And the worst thing you get is a no.

00:58:36.360 | Exactly. Now, don't take it so far that you come across as this cheap person.

00:58:42.040 | But I've been using it since I heard you talk about it on your podcast.

00:58:45.040 | And it's been fun to see what happens.

00:58:47.360 | That's awesome. No, you're you're absolutely right.

00:58:50.000 | Whenever you're in doubt, ask, you know, just try it and ask.

00:58:53.160 | But you're absolutely right.

00:58:54.160 | You have to consider the context of the circumstances, those type of things,

00:58:57.560 | because it's better to ask in these transactional type of things

00:59:01.440 | where you probably might not see this person again,

00:59:04.280 | you know, especially if you're practicing.

00:59:06.480 | But yeah, I know some people who try it, but there are significant others

00:59:10.160 | that is nearby all the time and they're like, please, oh, you're embarrassing me.

00:59:13.440 | Don't do it again, please.

00:59:16.280 | So you have to use it with moderation, for sure.

00:59:18.600 | Yeah, I love a good haggle overseas in a market.

00:59:22.360 | And sometimes the thrill of it is more fun than the savings.

00:59:27.600 | Yes. I've had times where I've loved the negotiating so much that I've said,

00:59:32.840 | oh, can we get this? How cheap can we get this?

00:59:34.680 | And then I'll end up actually just paying the original price.

00:59:37.040 | But I'll feel so good that I that I knew I could have paid the lower price.

00:59:41.200 | But, you know, I'm in a country where this person, you know,

00:59:44.160 | this is their means of income, and I've been very fortunate.

00:59:46.840 | So I don't necessarily need the discount,

00:59:49.200 | but I at least want to try to see if I can get exactly.

00:59:51.800 | And yeah, there's something validating to knowing you could get a deal.

00:59:55.360 | And and then if you leave it on the table, you get like, I would say 80,

00:59:58.840 | 90 percent of the the value of getting a deal by knowing you got it,

01:00:02.960 | even if you don't take it.

01:00:03.960 | Exactly. One hundred percent.

01:00:06.080 | OK, so slight change of gears.

01:00:08.280 | And I'd say this is probably more common at home.

01:00:11.160 | You're having a negotiation, as you will.

01:00:13.840 | But it doesn't always feel like it's necessarily a negotiation

01:00:17.200 | in the traditional sense.

01:00:18.240 | But, you know, there's a lot of emotions involved.

01:00:20.680 | And you say something and you immediately realize,

01:00:23.480 | if I had thought a little more, I probably wouldn't have said it like that.

01:00:27.440 | Is there something you can do to recover in those situations?

01:00:31.280 | Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:32.760 | So never underestimate the value of an apology

01:00:35.840 | because it fits into the framework, too, because that's giving somebody

01:00:40.800 | and some emotional validation, acknowledging and validating

01:00:44.520 | the harm that you caused.

01:00:46.080 | So when you're giving an apology,

01:00:48.080 | the key word that you need to focus on is if versus that.

01:00:51.680 | I'm not apologizing if I made you feel bad.

01:00:54.640 | No, I'm going to own it.

01:00:55.960 | I'm apologizing that I made you feel bad.

01:00:58.320 | So let's say we're having a conversation and it gets heated.

01:01:03.000 | So to your point, I say something wrong and I just say, listen,

01:01:06.320 | Chris, before I move on, I just want to say a few minutes ago,

01:01:10.600 | I said X, Y, Z, and I was wrong.

01:01:12.760 | I shouldn't have said that.

01:01:13.760 | I'm sorry that I said that.

01:01:15.000 | And I hope we can still move forward

01:01:17.160 | because think about times when somebody has wronged you in the past.

01:01:20.760 | One of the things that you want them to know is like you hurt me.

01:01:24.760 | This is how much you hurt me.

01:01:26.480 | And if I don't feel like you get it,

01:01:28.520 | I'm going to ramp up the emotionality until you feel it.

01:01:33.160 | Now I'm going to make you feel how much I'm hurt.

01:01:35.920 | And a lot of times because of our insecurity

01:01:38.720 | with dealing with emotions and sensitive issues,

01:01:41.360 | we might have made that mistake and we might recognize that we made a mistake.

01:01:44.880 | But we almost say, hey, you know what?

01:01:47.200 | The best way for me to handle this is to not ever talk about it again

01:01:50.800 | and pretend like it never happened.

01:01:52.680 | And hopefully they forget.

01:01:54.760 | And they didn't forget.

01:01:56.320 | But now what they think is that you are so disconnected from reality

01:01:59.560 | that you don't even recognize the impact of what you did.

01:02:01.680 | So you have to address it head on and just take it on the chin and say,

01:02:05.800 | listen, I shouldn't have said it that way.

01:02:07.520 | Or if something's coming out and it's coming out the wrong way,

01:02:09.960 | then I say, you know what?

01:02:12.760 | Let me pause. Let me rephrase this.

01:02:14.880 | It's not a Lincoln level oration here,

01:02:18.800 | but you don't need to be.

01:02:21.320 | You know, you don't get style points in difficult conversations.

01:02:24.320 | And so if you recognize you're making a mistake, stop and rephrase.

01:02:28.640 | If you recognize that you have made a mistake, stop, apologize

01:02:33.160 | and then see if you can continue to move on.

01:02:36.800 | That makes a lot of sense.

01:02:38.320 | OK, in your definition of negotiation, you said any time

01:02:42.000 | you're trying to get something from someone, is that correct?

01:02:44.520 | Anybody is trying to get something from someone

01:02:47.000 | because you might not think it's a negotiation, but they're like,

01:02:49.200 | no, this is something I want. This is a negotiation.

01:02:51.280 | So then it becomes a negotiation.

01:02:53.840 | So can you negotiate with yourself?

01:02:56.400 | I'm glad you asked, because the Compassionate Curiosity Framework

01:03:00.120 | is a tool that can be used for self-reflection as well, the same direction.

01:03:04.440 | So it helps you with your external and internal negotiations.

01:03:07.840 | So you can and should negotiate with yourself

01:03:10.320 | and you should have that negotiation first.

01:03:12.360 | And so you can think about the reality that a lot of times

01:03:15.400 | we don't know what we want or even if we know what we want,

01:03:18.600 | we don't understand why.

01:03:20.000 | So negotiating with yourself gives you clarity.

01:03:22.000 | And so with that internal negotiation, using the framework,

01:03:25.440 | it can be used to help alleviate some emotional distress

01:03:28.400 | that you're feeling because of the same psychology.

01:03:31.400 | And also it can help you to get clarity.

01:03:33.440 | So you will acknowledge and validate your own thoughts, feelings and beliefs.

01:03:38.720 | So that's step one.

01:03:39.960 | You're doing that for yourself.

01:03:41.440 | What do I think?

01:03:42.360 | What do I feel in this situation?

01:03:44.520 | And you want to get that with as much specificity as possible.

01:03:47.400 | Then you move on to the next step, getting curious with compassion.

01:03:50.400 | And so this is when we're asking ourselves these questions,

01:03:53.040 | just challenging our assumptions

01:03:55.160 | and trying to figure out why it is that we feel this way.

01:03:58.360 | But we have to do it compassionately, because with self-directed compassion,

01:04:02.360 | it allows us to go deeper into introspection,

01:04:04.680 | because usually we are our own worst enemy.

01:04:07.160 | We have a very demeaning and aggressive and judgmental self voice.

01:04:12.040 | And so we need to do that with self-directed compassion

01:04:14.960 | so we still stay in the introspective process.

01:04:17.680 | And then the last step is joint problem solving.

01:04:20.480 | So this is when we are reconciling the differences

01:04:23.080 | between our hearts and our minds.

01:04:24.840 | So sometimes you want something emotionally.

01:04:26.840 | What will it be that I need to do to satisfy myself emotionally?

01:04:31.120 | What do I need to have in order to satisfy myself substantively?

01:04:34.880 | OK, how can I reconcile those two?

01:04:37.760 | Because sometimes the best financial move for you

01:04:40.680 | might be the worst thing for your heart, for your heart and soul.

01:04:44.560 | Like when you look back on yourself, would you respect the decision

01:04:47.800 | that you made, even if it put you in a better financial position?

01:04:50.440 | For some people, the answer is no.

01:04:52.640 | OK, then we have to honor that.

01:04:54.480 | That's an important part of you.

01:04:55.840 | So how do we adjust this deal to make you feel a little bit better

01:04:59.600 | about the decision that you're making?

01:05:01.360 | And so going through this introspective process

01:05:03.400 | is an integral part of the process, because one of the worst things

01:05:06.520 | that could happen is you work really hard, you prepare,

01:05:09.760 | you have the conversation, it goes well, you get exactly what you want.

01:05:13.760 | Only to find out three weeks later that emotionally it is untenable.

01:05:18.880 | That's a bad place to be in.

01:05:21.400 | Absolutely.

01:05:22.320 | And one example that always comes up with money is paying off your house

01:05:26.080 | versus investing.

01:05:27.360 | And there's this totally valid emotional reason to pay off the house.

01:05:30.840 | But there's also a totally valid economic reason

01:05:33.520 | you might want to invest instead.

01:05:35.080 | And neither choice is right or wrong, as long as you make the choice

01:05:38.400 | that's right for you.

01:05:39.480 | OK, Kwame, this has been so incredible.

01:05:41.840 | I'm going to put everything in the show notes.

01:05:44.160 | I might even try to write a little bit of a summary of the conversation,

01:05:47.160 | which I don't normally do.

01:05:48.160 | But there were just so many great things.

01:05:50.160 | Where can people find you, find your podcast, find more

01:05:53.880 | about everything you're working on?

01:05:55.280 | Yes. So if anybody is interested in negotiation and conflict

01:05:59.160 | resolution training or they need help with a specific deal,

01:06:02.840 | so deal consulting, check out the American Negotiation Institute dot com

01:06:06.040 | and also go to our website to check out those free guides.

01:06:09.000 | American Negotiation Institute dot com slash guide.

01:06:11.800 | I am assuming that the people listening to this podcasters

01:06:15.400 | are, in fact, podcast listeners.

01:06:17.560 | So check out some of our shows and negotiate anything.

01:06:21.080 | Ask with confidence in our Spanish language negotiation podcast as well.

01:06:24.720 | And then I'm most active on LinkedIn.

01:06:27.200 | I'm always posting and we have a lot of LinkedIn learning courses

01:06:30.960 | and things like that.

01:06:31.720 | So LinkedIn is the best place to catch me for my social media.

01:06:36.200 | And then, of course, I have Instagram.

01:06:38.240 | So people usually follow me so they can see my cute kids.

01:06:41.240 | I understand that I'm secondary on those.

01:06:43.200 | I've come to terms with it, Chris.

01:06:45.000 | I'm sure you're familiar.

01:06:46.840 | Very familiar. Awesome.

01:06:48.440 | Well, thank you so much for being here.

01:06:50.520 | My pleasure. Thanks for having me, buddy.

01:06:53.200 | Wow. That was amazing.

01:06:54.800 | I hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did.

01:06:56.960 | I don't think the show notes will do it justice,

01:06:59.320 | but hopefully some of Kwame's free guides are helpful.

01:07:01.880 | If you're new to the show and not already subscribed,

01:07:04.800 | please go ahead and click subscribe or follow or whatever it says

01:07:08.120 | so you can get notified of future episodes.

01:07:10.200 | And if you're enjoying the show

01:07:11.720 | and haven't left a rating or review in your podcast app,

01:07:14.440 | I'd really appreciate it.

01:07:16.200 | Leaving one helps others find the show and helps the show grow.

01:07:19.160 | Also, thanks to everyone who reached out with questions and their favorite hacks.

01:07:23.440 | I love hearing from all of you, and I can't wait to include everything

01:07:26.800 | in the listener mailbag episode that I keep talking about.

01:07:29.800 | I'd have it out sooner, but I keep having these amazing conversations with guests.

01:07:33.840 | And so maybe I'll have to release it as a second episode one week.

01:07:36.800 | Anyways, thank you all so much for your support.

01:07:39.640 | See you next week.

01:07:40.640 | I want to tell you about another podcast

01:07:56.240 | I love that goes deep on all things money.

01:07:58.760 | That means everything from money hacks to wealth building to early retirement.

01:08:02.520 | It's called the Personal Finance Podcast, and it's much more

01:08:05.880 | about building generational wealth and spending your money on the things

01:08:09.520 | you value than it is about clipping coupons to save a dollar.

01:08:12.640 | It's hosted by my good friend Andrew, who truly believes that everyone

01:08:16.680 | in this world can build wealth.

01:08:18.200 | And his passion and excitement are what make this show so entertaining.

01:08:21.960 | I know because I was a guest on the show in December 2022.

01:08:25.880 | But recently, I listened to an episode where Andrew shared 16 money stats

01:08:30.480 | that will blow your mind.

01:08:31.840 | And it was so crazy to learn things like 35 percent of millennials

01:08:35.400 | are not participating in their employer's retirement plan.

01:08:38.440 | And that's just one of the many fascinating stats he shared.

01:08:41.800 | The Personal Finance Podcast has something for everyone.

01:08:44.800 | It's filled with so many tips and tactics and hacks to help you get better

01:08:48.400 | with your money and grow your wealth.

01:08:50.360 | So I highly recommend you check it out.

01:08:52.360 | Just search for the Personal Finance Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify

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