ATHLLC8300998938

00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)

00:00:01.640 | - Hello, and welcome to another episode of All The Hacks,

00:00:04.640 | a show about upgrading your life, money, and travel.

00:00:07.400 | I'm Chris Hutchins,

00:00:08.240 | and I'm so excited for our guest today, Nasir Yassin,

00:00:11.320 | better known online from his channel, Nas Daily.

00:00:14.240 | Nasir has traveled to dozens of countries

00:00:16.400 | that many of us have never been to or even heard of,

00:00:19.280 | and he's captivated millions of viewers worldwide

00:00:22.100 | with his daily one-minute videos

00:00:24.040 | that bring to life the stories of people

00:00:26.040 | from every corner of the globe.

00:00:27.960 | He has over 60 million followers online,

00:00:30.280 | and his videos have had more than 20 billion views.

00:00:33.480 | Now, I've gotten to know him over the past few years

00:00:35.720 | after he made a pretty amazing video

00:00:37.920 | about me and credit card points

00:00:39.880 | that I'll link to in the show notes,

00:00:41.320 | and I'm quite confident will make you smile.

00:00:43.960 | We're gonna talk about how travel

00:00:45.460 | can broaden our perspective on life

00:00:47.300 | and also help us save money along the way.

00:00:49.600 | And while our conversation touches a lot

00:00:51.480 | on travel-related topics,

00:00:52.800 | like the best ways to engage with local communities,

00:00:55.680 | underrated countries to visit,

00:00:57.400 | or why he always stays in hostels

00:00:59.200 | when he's in a new country,

00:01:00.560 | we're also gonna talk a little bit

00:01:02.000 | about personal development and self-discovery.

00:01:04.600 | I am really excited for this conversation,

00:01:06.600 | so let's jump in right after this.

00:01:08.900 | How do you feel about your finances right this second?

00:01:13.160 | Research shows that if you're like 90% of Americans,

00:01:15.920 | you most likely have a little money anxiety.

00:01:18.220 | In fact, that is one of the reasons

00:01:19.800 | I started a financial planning firm back in 2016.

00:01:23.000 | And when we shut the company down,

00:01:24.520 | we did extensive research

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00:02:20.000 | Again, that's allthehacks.com/facet.

00:02:23.740 | Don't leave your finances up to chance.

00:02:25.960 | Disclosure, Facet Wealth

00:02:27.240 | is an SEC-registered investment advisor.

00:02:29.060 | This is not an offer to buy or sell securities,

00:02:31.200 | nor is it investment, legal, or tax advice.

00:02:33.760 | Past performance is not a guarantee of future performance.

00:02:36.360 | Terms and conditions apply.

00:02:37.800 | Messiah, thanks for being here.

00:02:42.120 | - Chris, thank you for having me.

00:02:44.040 | - I think not that many people that I meet

00:02:46.200 | have a thing they really passionately believe in

00:02:48.460 | that needs to change about the world.

00:02:50.160 | What would you say is your kind of life mission

00:02:52.600 | for what you want to bring to this world?

00:02:54.140 | - Oh, wow, damn, you're starting strong.

00:02:56.640 | So, first of all, imagine if you're an alien

00:02:59.780 | and you come to planet Earth, okay?

00:03:02.280 | You just come into planet Earth for the first time ever,

00:03:04.180 | and we introduce you to planet Earth,

00:03:06.380 | some of the things that we're doing

00:03:07.500 | for the last 30, 40, 50 years.

00:03:09.700 | I'm pretty damn sure the alien would be shocked

00:03:13.300 | by what we do, and be like,

00:03:14.460 | "There's no way you're doing this."

00:03:16.060 | So, an example of that is we built a very tall building,

00:03:20.840 | and then we put a desk and a chair,

00:03:23.300 | and we force somebody to sit in that desk and chair

00:03:25.780 | for 13 hours every day, like 500 meters above the ground,

00:03:29.600 | in a suit and a rope around their neck.

00:03:32.180 | (laughing)

00:03:33.620 | And also, we walk around with a rope around our neck,

00:03:36.340 | the tie.

00:03:37.540 | Like, really, why do you have a rope around your neck?

00:03:39.960 | So, that's fundamentally, something's off with it.

00:03:42.140 | Or like the idea that you can only do

00:03:44.180 | what you really like when you're 67,

00:03:46.620 | when you're like 70% done with your life,

00:03:48.740 | or 80% done with your life.

00:03:50.180 | Then, you can get the freedom you want.

00:03:53.300 | That sounds like ridiculous, right?

00:03:54.860 | Or the idea that we're forcing high schoolers

00:03:57.380 | and middle school students to spend the first 18 years

00:03:59.580 | of their lives literally sitting in a classroom,

00:04:02.580 | bored out of their mind.

00:04:04.780 | The first 18 years of your life,

00:04:06.220 | society literally imprisons you in a school system

00:04:09.460 | that is not the most efficient.

00:04:11.580 | That's crazy, don't you think?

00:04:13.260 | So, anyway, oh, another thing that's crazy we do,

00:04:15.420 | we kill each other because we disagree on something

00:04:18.060 | that happened 2,000 years ago.

00:04:19.940 | The Crusaders, and the Shia, and the Muslims.

00:04:22.220 | And because of that, we kill each other.

00:04:25.220 | Oh, a piece of land, we also disagree

00:04:27.060 | on the name of a piece of land,

00:04:28.020 | and I'm willing to literally end your life

00:04:30.020 | because this land is mine and it's not yours.

00:04:32.540 | A lot of these things for an alien sound ridiculous,

00:04:35.540 | and for us, it's daily life.

00:04:37.360 | And I think my mission statement in life

00:04:39.060 | is to recognize what needs to change on planet Earth,

00:04:44.060 | and spend the rest of my life contributing to that.

00:04:47.140 | And so, that's why my mission statement is,

00:04:48.900 | bring people together.

00:04:49.980 | I'm from Israel and Palestine, and that's a crazy thing.

00:04:53.060 | So, I'd like to help in that regard.

00:04:54.820 | I'd like to help get people to spend less time

00:04:57.500 | wearing ropes around their neck.

00:04:59.220 | I'd like people to stop killing each other

00:05:01.820 | because they're a different color,

00:05:02.980 | or shade, or for an eye, or whatever.

00:05:04.980 | That's my life statement.

00:05:06.620 | - And what do you think you can do,

00:05:08.660 | or anyone listening can do to try to further that?

00:05:10.660 | 'Cause I think it's a noble goal

00:05:11.900 | that I would hope that my audience is not like,

00:05:14.660 | oh, that guy, that horrible idea of bringing people together.

00:05:17.740 | (laughing)

00:05:18.900 | - I found, and please tell me what you think.

00:05:21.220 | Actually, I wanna get your opinion on this.

00:05:23.340 | I think most change starts with media.

00:05:27.340 | I don't know if that's right or wrong,

00:05:29.400 | but most real change in the world

00:05:31.740 | starts with just making better media information,

00:05:34.820 | better information.

00:05:35.780 | That's why whenever a dictator comes to a country,

00:05:38.540 | what is the first thing that they do?

00:05:40.500 | They stop the radio, they stop the TV,

00:05:42.740 | they take control of the newspapers.

00:05:44.260 | So, the flow of information,

00:05:45.660 | if you change the flow of information,

00:05:47.540 | you change the flow of the way humans think.

00:05:49.860 | If you change the way humans think, you change the world.

00:05:53.140 | What would you do?

00:05:54.100 | - I think that it's very hard for people

00:05:56.700 | to see someone else's perspective without understanding it.

00:06:01.500 | The media is able to just show us the perspective

00:06:03.700 | that we believe in and we agree with and all that.

00:06:06.380 | And if people could just kind of go spend some time

00:06:09.220 | with other people who live different lives,

00:06:11.540 | but you also have to get them

00:06:12.420 | to be a little bit more open-minded.

00:06:13.900 | - So, it seems like it starts with media,

00:06:15.380 | but also ends with travel.

00:06:16.660 | - So, I think that's why I love travel.

00:06:17.900 | That's why I encourage people to go places.

00:06:19.700 | I haven't thought about this problem as much as you have,

00:06:21.700 | but I just don't think people

00:06:22.860 | get to see that perspective enough.

00:06:24.340 | And traveling has helped me see it,

00:06:26.020 | which is why I love traveling,

00:06:27.100 | which is why I love encouraging travel,

00:06:28.700 | which I love talking about it.

00:06:29.940 | I love helping people save money

00:06:31.300 | so they can spend money on things they wanna do.

00:06:33.780 | - Yeah, I think travel humanizes humans.

00:06:36.740 | And I think far too often,

00:06:38.300 | we look at somebody in North Korea as a not human.

00:06:42.340 | You are just a North Korean.

00:06:44.660 | It's like you don't view them as human.

00:06:46.940 | And you can kill what you don't humanize.

00:06:49.980 | And when you humanize somebody, you cannot kill them.

00:06:51.780 | - And not even kill, I mean, yes, physically,

00:06:53.660 | but also just like destroy their ideas,

00:06:56.020 | destroy their beliefs, you know, in all ways.

00:06:58.860 | - That's why people don't wanna eat their dog,

00:07:00.740 | because the dog is humanized to them.

00:07:02.420 | Oh, my dog has feelings.

00:07:03.700 | My dog loves me, my dog, right?

00:07:05.100 | But they're okay to kill a cow that they've never seen

00:07:07.780 | because it's not a human.

00:07:09.300 | So, I guess the more we humanize everything in life,

00:07:12.620 | the kinder the world will become.

00:07:14.620 | - Now, you said kind.

00:07:16.340 | - I didn't say nice.

00:07:17.180 | - You did not say nice.

00:07:18.340 | Tell me about why.

00:07:19.860 | - You're like, you had like a light bulb.

00:07:21.780 | Would you say you're a nice guy?

00:07:23.340 | - Having seen a video of you talk about this,

00:07:24.940 | I will restrain myself from answering that question.

00:07:27.900 | - No, I think kindness is important.

00:07:29.740 | I don't think niceness is.

00:07:31.820 | And maybe this is because I was born and raised in Israel,

00:07:34.140 | which there's a term in Israel called chutzpah.

00:07:36.740 | You know what chutzpah means?

00:07:38.220 | - I know how to use it more than I know how to define it.

00:07:40.540 | - It's like almost like bluntness or like rudeness,

00:07:43.260 | straightforwardness is like,

00:07:44.460 | I'm just gonna say whatever I wanna say.

00:07:46.860 | I'm gonna be truthful and I'm gonna say it

00:07:49.660 | even at the expense of you feeling uncomfortable.

00:07:52.340 | And I think niceness means not doing

00:07:56.500 | what you really want to do

00:07:58.140 | because you are limited by the fear

00:08:02.140 | of offending someone else.

00:08:04.660 | So, to be nice, you change who you are

00:08:07.540 | to suit somebody else, even if you're not being truthful

00:08:11.500 | to yourself.

00:08:12.340 | Does that make sense?

00:08:13.220 | So, that's why I think this whole idea

00:08:14.940 | is like you have to be nice.

00:08:15.900 | I don't necessarily agree with that.

00:08:17.340 | I think you have to be yourself.

00:08:19.140 | I'll give you an example from like work, okay?

00:08:21.500 | I have two types of people that I work with.

00:08:23.420 | A person that is not nice to me,

00:08:25.740 | but every time I talk to them and they report to me,

00:08:27.980 | every time I talk to them,

00:08:29.020 | they tell me exactly how they feel, right?

00:08:31.260 | When I look at their face,

00:08:32.660 | when they say you're a horrible CEO or you're a great CEO,

00:08:35.940 | I can pretty much guess that they mean what they say

00:08:38.580 | because they're not being nice.

00:08:40.060 | They're being upfront and kind,

00:08:42.140 | but they're being themselves.

00:08:43.580 | The other type of person would be like,

00:08:45.580 | I love this job, I love this company, I love you, right?

00:08:48.700 | But behind your back,

00:08:49.780 | they're like really not happy with you.

00:08:52.540 | But they're trying to be nice to you.

00:08:54.060 | I think that's the ultimate form of betrayal

00:08:57.660 | is being nice to someone when you don't actually mean it,

00:09:01.980 | just because you want to be nice.

00:09:03.220 | So I have many problems with the word nice.

00:09:06.380 | I'd much rather have people be kind,

00:09:08.060 | but like super upfront, say what you want to say,

00:09:11.260 | and if it comes at the expense of somebody hating you,

00:09:13.220 | then so be it.

00:09:14.180 | - Have you found any tactics in a culture like America

00:09:17.500 | where this is not okay or it's less societally acceptable?

00:09:20.780 | An example I'll give where I've been not nice,

00:09:23.740 | but purely kind is, I can't remember the circumstances.

00:09:26.940 | - By the way, you are too nice, I noticed.

00:09:28.500 | - I might be too nice,

00:09:29.740 | but there was a moment where my wife and I

00:09:31.380 | were talking to someone and they were like,

00:09:32.980 | "We should get together sometime."

00:09:34.340 | - And you said yes?

00:09:35.260 | - No, no, no.

00:09:36.100 | And almost everyone listening, I'm sure,

00:09:38.180 | if they met another couple or friends and they said,

00:09:41.020 | "Oh, we should get together sometime."

00:09:42.380 | - Yes.

00:09:43.220 | - You'd be like, "Yeah, let's see if it'll work."

00:09:44.060 | And I remember saying, "Look, things are really busy.

00:09:47.220 | "We have a lot going on.

00:09:48.060 | "I just don't think it makes sense

00:09:48.900 | "to try to plan something.

00:09:50.140 | "Let's not plan something."

00:09:52.060 | I didn't say like, "I don't want to see you again."

00:09:53.980 | I was not trying to be unkind.

00:09:55.540 | - That was with another couple of friends.

00:09:57.180 | - This was just like to people we met.

00:09:58.460 | So maybe it was at a park

00:09:59.300 | and some kids and the parents are like,

00:10:00.460 | "Oh, should we do?"

00:10:01.300 | I don't remember the context.

00:10:02.500 | It was before kids, actually.

00:10:03.500 | It was years ago.

00:10:04.340 | There's only so many people you can have in your life

00:10:06.380 | and spend time with.

00:10:07.260 | And how do you want to prioritize?

00:10:08.180 | I was like, "I just don't think this meets the bar

00:10:10.180 | "for what I want to spend my time on."

00:10:12.140 | And at work, I've gotten better at replying to people.

00:10:14.620 | Be like, "I don't have time for this meeting.

00:10:16.620 | "Really appreciate it.

00:10:17.460 | "I'm focused on other stuff.

00:10:18.660 | "If it could be accomplished via email,

00:10:19.940 | "send me an email.

00:10:20.780 | "Otherwise, feel free to reach out down the road

00:10:23.100 | "and we'll see if I have time."

00:10:24.620 | - Chris, do you want to go to the Maldives, me and you?

00:10:26.780 | - I definitely don't want to go to the Maldives with you.

00:10:28.900 | Of all the things that I could do

00:10:30.300 | with the limited amount of time I have,

00:10:32.580 | and if it's without kids, it's too far.

00:10:35.100 | And if it's with kids, it's not gonna be what I want.

00:10:37.300 | - It's not fun.

00:10:38.140 | - And so, conceptually, I do want to go

00:10:39.980 | to the Maldives with you.

00:10:40.820 | Like, if you could create the, yeah.

00:10:41.860 | But practically, no, I do not want to go to the Maldives.

00:10:43.860 | - Well, thank you for being upfront.

00:10:45.500 | - But I don't think people like that.

00:10:47.060 | I love Israeli buntness.

00:10:48.940 | Like, all my Israeli friends are like, you know,

00:10:51.220 | come over and they're like, "Oh, why did you do that thing?

00:10:53.060 | "That was dumb."

00:10:53.900 | And I was like, "Oh yeah, you're right, it was dumb.

00:10:55.140 | "But everyone else here is so nice."

00:10:57.820 | - So, how do you survive with Americans

00:11:02.380 | trying to be less nice and not coming across as unkind?

00:11:05.860 | - It's so funny that you think Americans

00:11:07.700 | are the nicest people on the planet.

00:11:09.420 | The other question is, how do you survive

00:11:10.500 | with other nationalities that are 10 times nicer

00:11:12.940 | than Americans, you know?

00:11:14.620 | Like Japan.

00:11:15.660 | How do you survive in Japan, for example,

00:11:17.140 | where you're like, literally have to be nice,

00:11:19.420 | or else it's like, you know, society,

00:11:21.420 | there's so many societal expectations.

00:11:23.860 | I found Americans to be not that nice.

00:11:28.300 | I don't know why.

00:11:29.380 | I mean, there's a bit of shallowness,

00:11:30.940 | which is like, "Hey, how are you?

00:11:31.860 | "What's up?

00:11:32.700 | "Let's hang out."

00:11:33.540 | And nobody actually means it.

00:11:34.900 | But if you look at the national discourse

00:11:37.500 | of Americans on Twitter and on the media,

00:11:40.900 | they're not nice to each other.

00:11:42.380 | They have a lot of freedom to be who they are

00:11:44.500 | and say what they want on a national level.

00:11:46.620 | Maybe on a personal level, they're trying to be nice,

00:11:48.820 | but on a national, like, there's a lot of nice people,

00:11:52.220 | much nicer in Japan,

00:11:53.300 | and the national discourse is much nicer.

00:11:55.100 | So this is partly why I'm attracted to America,

00:11:58.140 | 'cause I actually don't view people as nice.

00:12:00.060 | I view them as a bit like Israel sometimes.

00:12:03.220 | - My read is once you've humanized another person,

00:12:06.060 | Americans are nice. (laughs)

00:12:07.980 | So like amongst friends, you're like,

00:12:09.740 | "Hey, do you wanna get together?"

00:12:11.060 | If someone doesn't wanna get together with you,

00:12:13.020 | they're probably not gonna say no.

00:12:15.260 | - Yeah.

00:12:16.100 | - That level of, like, nicety.

00:12:17.900 | - Nice to strangers.

00:12:18.860 | - Yeah.

00:12:19.700 | We're okay being not nice to strangers,

00:12:21.260 | but we're like over nice to--

00:12:23.300 | - To somebody you know.

00:12:24.140 | - Colleagues and friends and family.

00:12:25.420 | - That makes sense. - That kind of stuff.

00:12:26.260 | So you said being nice can sometimes get in the way

00:12:28.700 | of acting what you truly are and putting on a facade.

00:12:32.060 | How do you think people could be,

00:12:34.540 | or do you think people should be more themselves,

00:12:36.340 | and how do they do that?

00:12:37.460 | - Well, it's just, I found out that,

00:12:39.780 | you know how there's a sixth sense for humans?

00:12:41.900 | We can sense when somebody's being authentic,

00:12:43.780 | and we can sense when somebody's not being authentic, right?

00:12:46.620 | And I think you just wanna make sure everybody around you

00:12:49.300 | knows that you're authentic,

00:12:50.780 | because people just love authenticity.

00:12:52.460 | This is why you guys voted for Trump, not to get political,

00:12:55.140 | but at least you can probably think

00:12:58.060 | that whatever Trump says, he actually believes,

00:13:00.980 | whether you like it or not, right?

00:13:02.220 | But the authenticity is so attractive about humans,

00:13:06.300 | and I think it's just like such an underrated feature

00:13:09.540 | that many people don't seem to grasp

00:13:12.900 | is the more authentic you look,

00:13:14.860 | which means the more you say what you really wanna say,

00:13:17.500 | it means you'll actually be loved.

00:13:18.620 | It's very counterintuitive.

00:13:20.500 | It's very counterintuitive,

00:13:21.580 | because everybody is living in this act.

00:13:25.540 | We're all acting.

00:13:26.820 | You're smiling when you're supposed to smile,

00:13:28.420 | you're shaking hands when you're supposed to shake hands,

00:13:29.940 | you're putting a tie when you're supposed to wear a tie.

00:13:32.060 | We're all acting to each other until we die.

00:13:34.500 | But at some point, you have to stop acting,

00:13:36.540 | and just like be who you really are.

00:13:38.220 | You know, I once went to this conference in Switzerland.

00:13:40.180 | I'm not gonna say the name of the conference,

00:13:41.980 | but man, it was the most boring thing I've seen in my life,

00:13:47.940 | where everybody pretended to be interested

00:13:50.260 | in everything everybody else was saying,

00:13:51.860 | but I know for a fact that deep down inside,

00:13:54.020 | everybody was bored.

00:13:55.500 | But during the conversations, they were like,

00:13:56.780 | "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, great point, great point.

00:13:58.820 | "Well, I really love your suit."

00:14:00.100 | It was such an act that made me realize this is not it.

00:14:04.980 | This is not it.

00:14:05.860 | - Do you think people do that

00:14:06.700 | because they're afraid to be authentic,

00:14:08.940 | not because they're afraid of who they are,

00:14:10.380 | but because they're afraid other people will judge them?

00:14:12.260 | - Yeah, I mean, you don't wanna rock the boat.

00:14:14.500 | I mean, if you're making millions of dollars in Switzerland,

00:14:17.180 | you don't wanna rock the boat.

00:14:18.020 | I mean, I'll be the nicest guy ever

00:14:19.140 | if I have a million dollars guaranteed out of it, right?

00:14:21.780 | So I think there's too much to lose,

00:14:25.540 | and that's why you have to be nice to each other.

00:14:27.660 | But when there's nothing to lose,

00:14:29.660 | then you become who you really are.

00:14:31.300 | And you see it when there is war.

00:14:33.420 | Oh, I have nothing to lose now.

00:14:34.460 | I'll just go be myself.

00:14:35.500 | I can go loot, I can go whatever I want.

00:14:37.620 | But when you have a lot to lose,

00:14:38.980 | like that's why rich people's circles,

00:14:40.660 | everybody's so nice to each other.

00:14:42.300 | Because one mistake, you lose millions of dollars.

00:14:45.100 | So I think maybe the reason why we're nice

00:14:46.860 | is 'cause we're scared of losing

00:14:48.420 | what we have already achieved.

00:14:50.060 | And I see it myself, when I have something to lose,

00:14:52.300 | I'm actually a little bit nicer to others.

00:14:54.460 | I'm a little bit less myself.

00:14:56.500 | Now I've come to a point where if I lose everything,

00:14:59.540 | I still have some money in the bank, so I'm okay.

00:15:02.420 | And that's why I think you see Elon Musk

00:15:03.940 | to be so himself, so crazy.

00:15:07.060 | Because he has nothing to lose.

00:15:08.620 | He has the world's money.

00:15:10.780 | That's it, what's the worst?

00:15:11.980 | He's never gonna be homeless.

00:15:12.940 | So in a way, if your livelihood is on the line

00:15:16.540 | with what you're about to say,

00:15:17.580 | you're gonna say the nicest thing ever.

00:15:19.540 | - When it comes to food,

00:15:21.820 | I feel like I'm on a quest for the perfect balance

00:15:24.260 | of convenience, price, and deliciousness.

00:15:27.060 | I've tried a few meal kits in the past, but nothing stuck.

00:15:30.180 | Then we recently tried Green Chef,

00:15:32.020 | and after a few weeks of great meals,

00:15:34.420 | I reached out to them to try to work together,

00:15:36.540 | and I am very excited to have them as a sponsor this week.

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00:15:51.620 | and just looking to eat more balanced meals.

00:15:54.420 | But while I love eating healthy,

00:15:55.980 | what keeps us ordering each week,

00:15:58.060 | and to be clear, those were unsponsored, fully paid orders,

00:16:01.700 | was that the meals tasted so good

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00:16:53.500 | for pizza nights in the backyard,

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00:16:57.580 | and I am still getting compliments on that pizza.

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00:18:16.360 | - It's interesting, I talked to the,

00:18:17.580 | I don't know if you know Bill Perkins.

00:18:19.260 | He wrote a book called "Die With Zero,"

00:18:20.780 | and as an experiment-- - "Die With Zero."

00:18:22.300 | - "Die With Zero."

00:18:23.140 | As an experiment, he decided to go get some really old clothes

00:18:27.900 | and go panhandle for a few days in,

00:18:30.500 | I can't remember what city he was in.

00:18:32.220 | And what he did was he realized,

00:18:33.420 | "Wow, if I just sit on the street and beg for money,

00:18:36.940 | I can make," and I actually think

00:18:38.100 | it was a crazy amount of money.

00:18:39.020 | It was like $50,000 a year.

00:18:40.980 | And he was like, "Oh, so I'll never be homeless.

00:18:43.320 | Like, I don't have anything to worry about.

00:18:45.020 | Like, if everything gets taken away,

00:18:46.900 | I can go live on however much money

00:18:48.780 | I can make begging on the street."

00:18:49.960 | And it mentally got rid of that.

00:18:52.360 | I'm curious, most people listening here

00:18:54.580 | are not at the kind of wealth

00:18:55.660 | that they're getting millions of dollars

00:18:57.260 | in conferences in Switzerland,

00:18:58.520 | but they're kind of in this middle ground

00:18:59.580 | where they're probably not being their authentic self.

00:19:02.020 | - You've talked about having the courage to be disliked.

00:19:04.620 | And I think a lot of times in a conversation,

00:19:06.060 | someone's not willing to say something

00:19:07.500 | 'cause they're like, "Oh, maybe someone won't like it.

00:19:09.100 | Oh, maybe I'll offend someone,"

00:19:10.780 | even though I really feel it.

00:19:12.460 | And I don't think that means

00:19:13.620 | intentionally trying to offend people.

00:19:16.060 | What would you tell someone who's like,

00:19:17.500 | "Hey, Nassir, how do I just be more me?"

00:19:20.820 | - I think people should aim to be disliked.

00:19:23.820 | And this is really counterintuitive.

00:19:25.260 | Again, it's very counterintuitive, very.

00:19:27.780 | You should aim to be disliked

00:19:29.860 | because the way I've seen the world work

00:19:33.540 | is for every one person that dislikes you,

00:19:37.020 | there's an equivalent person

00:19:38.580 | on the other side of the world that loves you.

00:19:41.620 | And so the more somebody dislikes you,

00:19:43.740 | the more another person loves you.

00:19:46.040 | So it's a very polarizing thing, right?

00:19:48.140 | But if somebody doesn't dislike you,

00:19:49.980 | you know what it also means?

00:19:51.340 | Nobody actually loves you.

00:19:52.960 | And this is why most politicians in democracies

00:19:56.660 | end up with like 50/50%.

00:19:58.620 | You know, why is that?

00:19:59.740 | Because politicians need security and everything

00:20:02.220 | because there are people who really dislike them

00:20:05.020 | and wanna kill them.

00:20:05.900 | That's why they need security.

00:20:07.300 | And there are people who really love them

00:20:09.100 | and wanna vote for them forever.

00:20:11.100 | And so I think people should aim to live life

00:20:14.760 | like a politician, which is have some people

00:20:17.580 | that clearly dislike the way you live life,

00:20:19.980 | but also on the other side, you'll have your people.

00:20:23.040 | And people are just attracted to big ideas, big opinions.

00:20:28.740 | They're attracted to people who are authentic.

00:20:30.500 | And I hate Gary Vee, okay?

00:20:33.500 | Just to be very open about it.

00:20:34.980 | Like, I'm not a fan.

00:20:36.260 | I'm not a fan of the Gary Vee style,

00:20:38.100 | but he's a genius for doing it

00:20:39.780 | because that same style is why he has a diehard fandom.

00:20:43.380 | And that's powerful.

00:20:45.420 | And I'm trying to emulate Gary Vee

00:20:48.300 | as much as I hate his style.

00:20:49.340 | I'm trying to emulate it by being who I am

00:20:51.580 | and get my fair share of haters.

00:20:52.900 | I think I have 30 million haters or so.

00:20:55.000 | But on the other side, I have 60, 70 million lovers.

00:20:58.260 | I love living like that.

00:21:00.020 | - And does it make you happy?

00:21:01.460 | - Very happy.

00:21:02.660 | That's probably the only thing that makes me happy

00:21:04.140 | is knowing how much I'm worth hating

00:21:08.500 | because it also means I'm worth loving by somebody else.

00:21:12.900 | Because there's something to hate.

00:21:15.000 | Like anybody who lives life without being hated on

00:21:18.960 | is not somebody who's done any meaningful change.

00:21:21.620 | Most change comes with resistance.

00:21:23.700 | And if you are not getting resistance for your ideas

00:21:26.180 | and what you believe in and what you like

00:21:27.660 | and what you wanna do in your career,

00:21:29.340 | then you're not pushing the envelope enough.

00:21:30.980 | And if you're not pushing the envelope enough,

00:21:32.700 | your life is inconsequential.

00:21:34.660 | That's how I think about it.

00:21:35.900 | Of course, these are very extreme thoughts.

00:21:38.180 | - Yeah.

00:21:39.020 | - Now, Chris, how many haters do you have?

00:21:40.880 | - It's interesting.

00:21:41.720 | The thing that I think is both great

00:21:43.660 | and not great about podcasting

00:21:45.820 | is that there's no commenting.

00:21:48.620 | It takes someone hearing me say my email address

00:21:51.380 | or going to a website.

00:21:53.020 | So good and bad, I get very little feedback.

00:21:57.620 | But I would say in the entire time I've done this,

00:22:01.180 | well over a thousand comments in the form of email

00:22:04.500 | or in social or anything,

00:22:05.940 | I think I've had one negative reaction by email

00:22:10.660 | and not a lot.

00:22:11.900 | So I think--

00:22:12.720 | - It's difficult with podcasts.

00:22:13.820 | If you were on like TikTok, you'll get a lot more hate.

00:22:17.300 | - It's one thing that I think makes me not excited

00:22:19.580 | about trying to do more on social media.

00:22:21.380 | It's just like, it seems like,

00:22:23.660 | like my perspective on podcasting

00:22:25.180 | is it's a very positive place.

00:22:26.740 | People are like, "Oh, I don't like what you have to say.

00:22:28.540 | "I'll just go listen to something else."

00:22:30.020 | And there's no easy way for them to be like,

00:22:32.620 | "And I hate what you said."

00:22:33.980 | So they just don't.

00:22:35.200 | - So let's use this as an opportunity.

00:22:37.100 | If anybody here listening to this has any issues with Chris.

00:22:40.700 | - If you hate what I'm saying,

00:22:42.140 | just give me the, as you would say,

00:22:43.980 | the gratitude of knowing that people out there

00:22:46.620 | hate what I'm saying.

00:22:47.740 | - So you're calling your audience

00:22:49.100 | to send you hate mail right now

00:22:50.700 | and you're giving them permission?

00:22:52.060 | - Only if they believe that.

00:22:53.740 | - Yeah, only if they believe that.

00:22:55.020 | - But I guess you gotta balance that with,

00:22:56.340 | if you also love what I'm saying, you gotta get both.

00:22:59.060 | But I imagine that by this many minutes in,

00:23:01.500 | if they haven't, they've already gone somewhere else.

00:23:03.220 | It's so easy to read a tweet before you tune it out.

00:23:06.540 | It's so easy to watch a 30 second video

00:23:08.700 | before you tune it out.

00:23:10.140 | I think it's really hard in a podcast

00:23:11.700 | to get to the point that something,

00:23:14.180 | the most controversial thing is said

00:23:16.300 | and there's no inherent virality.

00:23:17.620 | It's not like if we say something that is crazy,

00:23:20.100 | Apple is not gonna like promote the episode

00:23:22.140 | because lots of people listen to it.

00:23:23.740 | That's just not how it works.

00:23:25.180 | - Wow.

00:23:26.020 | - So it's very easy with YouTube, with social media

00:23:27.660 | to just, something that's controversial

00:23:29.780 | will blow up with podcasting.

00:23:30.860 | It's not, which means slower growth,

00:23:33.220 | but it also means it's a much more positive experience.

00:23:35.380 | Like I don't get the negativity.

00:23:36.940 | - Yeah, but I can also take you out of context.

00:23:38.580 | I can take like 10 seconds of this podcast

00:23:40.820 | and then put it on TikTok

00:23:41.900 | and then I can show you like a bad guy.

00:23:43.580 | - Yeah, someone will hate me if you do that,

00:23:45.340 | but I just won't be there to listen.

00:23:47.020 | (laughing)

00:23:48.380 | We've talked about authenticity.

00:23:49.460 | You've put so much out there.

00:23:50.740 | Is there any downside that's come

00:23:52.180 | from being so radically transparent?

00:23:53.500 | - None, zero.

00:23:54.980 | If there's one thing I want the audience

00:23:56.980 | to like really like understand

00:23:58.900 | is that so far in the last seven years,

00:24:01.140 | I've had zero downsides of being public, zero.

00:24:05.700 | This fear of exposing your privacy is an irrational fear.

00:24:10.540 | I've shared how much money I make, where I live,

00:24:13.700 | who I date, how I date, everything about my life

00:24:17.860 | to tens of millions of people.

00:24:19.580 | And every time I share more, I literally get rewarded more.

00:24:24.340 | I get rewarded more, it's crazy.

00:24:26.380 | People love you more.

00:24:27.580 | People wanna help you more.

00:24:29.100 | I think we need to get into this culture of like over sharing,

00:24:32.820 | sharing what you really are going through

00:24:35.500 | because you never know who's listening on the other side

00:24:37.460 | that is dying for somebody else to relate with, so.

00:24:40.900 | - And this doesn't have to mean starting a YouTube channel.

00:24:43.780 | It could just be more open with your friends.

00:24:45.940 | - Yes, more, yes, or even with your LinkedIn feed.

00:24:49.260 | Say hey, like I hate my job.

00:24:50.980 | Sorry boss, but like I don't like my job

00:24:52.500 | and I feel like I'm not living the best of my life

00:24:54.780 | and this is what I'm gonna do to change it.

00:24:56.740 | The outpouring of support is going to be insane.

00:25:01.060 | In my company, there's this culture,

00:25:02.340 | it's called always share secrets.

00:25:05.020 | It's one of the values of the company, always share secrets.

00:25:08.340 | The world is much better when every secret is known.

00:25:11.300 | - Okay, and one of those things has been your relationship.

00:25:13.700 | You recently made, I think your longest video ever.

00:25:16.260 | - Yeah.

00:25:17.100 | - Which is probably shorter than every piece of content

00:25:18.980 | I've ever made about your relationship

00:25:21.580 | and you put how many years into it?

00:25:24.260 | - Six years.

00:25:25.100 | - Six years, it ended.

00:25:27.340 | And also, it sounds like you think

00:25:30.820 | that it wasn't a waste of time,

00:25:32.220 | which I think so many people often think

00:25:33.860 | about a failed relationship.

00:25:35.380 | - Really?

00:25:36.380 | Yeah, yeah, you're right actually.

00:25:37.740 | They do think about that.

00:25:39.140 | I guess maybe I've been lucky in the last six years

00:25:41.540 | because in this relationship, I like learned,

00:25:43.420 | I felt like I was dating a professor, you know?

00:25:45.780 | I was like learning about things I was never exposed to,

00:25:48.620 | like vegetarianism, like animal rights,

00:25:51.460 | women's rights movements, right?

00:25:53.180 | These are all things I have not been exposed to

00:25:55.060 | as a child from a village.

00:25:56.900 | And so in this last six years,

00:25:58.420 | and also I've become exposed to how to have sex,

00:26:01.340 | (laughing)

00:26:02.900 | you know, and how to talk.

00:26:04.940 | And so I've learned a lot

00:26:06.420 | and I've been exposed to like the Jewish culture, right?

00:26:08.100 | 'Cause my girlfriend was Jewish as well.

00:26:09.780 | It's great.

00:26:11.380 | I'm so happy I was exposed to this stuff.

00:26:13.700 | So there's this line that says,

00:26:15.700 | "No growth of the heart is ever a waste."

00:26:19.260 | And I just find that line to be so good.

00:26:22.220 | No growth of the heart is ever a waste.

00:26:25.220 | And so I guess a simple test is,

00:26:27.180 | I look back at my six year relationship

00:26:28.660 | and the person listening can do the same.

00:26:30.860 | Did your heart grow even by 1%?

00:26:33.620 | If it did, it's worth it.

00:26:35.500 | Because growth of the heart

00:26:36.660 | is the hardest thing in the world.

00:26:38.460 | You can grow your muscles, you can grow your net worth,

00:26:40.660 | you can grow your company,

00:26:42.140 | but growing your heart is mission impossible sometimes.

00:26:45.540 | And you need somebody to force you to grow it.

00:26:47.420 | And my ex-girlfriend did that.

00:26:48.660 | And for that, I'm forever thankful.

00:26:50.460 | - So traveling exposes you to a lot of things.

00:26:53.180 | And I wanna go and pretend for a moment

00:26:55.620 | you have no followers.

00:26:57.380 | No one knows who you are.

00:26:58.340 | - No one knows I am.

00:26:59.260 | - No one.

00:27:00.100 | And you're traveling.

00:27:00.940 | - Yes.

00:27:01.780 | - And I wanna know,

00:27:02.620 | one of the things I think you're most well known for

00:27:04.660 | is building community

00:27:06.100 | and meeting people and connecting the world.

00:27:08.540 | How would you go about doing that from scratch

00:27:10.260 | if you were in a new place, in a new culture, traveling?

00:27:13.260 | - I love traveling.

00:27:14.420 | And I happen to have been not famous

00:27:17.100 | for like 27 years of my life, okay?

00:27:19.460 | So this is just a recent phenomenon,

00:27:21.260 | like five years old, right?

00:27:22.980 | So I know how it's like to travel to like 30, 40 countries

00:27:25.500 | without nobody knowing me.

00:27:26.980 | But I found out that the best way to travel

00:27:30.900 | is to go to hostels.

00:27:33.260 | And I like strategically now,

00:27:35.740 | when I didn't have money and when I had money,

00:27:37.860 | strategically would go to hostels

00:27:39.700 | and I would check in a hostel,

00:27:41.060 | ideally at a dorm, not at a private room,

00:27:44.500 | because you wanna have like these random interactions

00:27:47.220 | with people that end up leading to friendships,

00:27:49.940 | let's go explore together.

00:27:51.300 | And then I would spend like a crazy amount of time

00:27:54.100 | in the lobby of the hostel

00:27:55.780 | in the hopes of just like randomly meeting somebody.

00:27:59.340 | And then you just need that one person

00:28:01.220 | that's also in a very uncomfortable position, just like you.

00:28:04.300 | And both of you decide,

00:28:05.580 | hey, let's go explore this country together.

00:28:08.420 | And when you have one person, it's easier to find the third

00:28:11.060 | and we have three, it's easy to find the fourth, right?

00:28:13.540 | So it's all about getting that one partner

00:28:16.500 | to wanna explore the country with you.

00:28:18.340 | And so every country I went to,

00:28:20.180 | I would literally just go to the hostels

00:28:22.380 | to make the friends, not to stay at the hotel.

00:28:24.580 | I don't care about staying in the hostels,

00:28:25.740 | just to make the friends.

00:28:26.860 | - So you'd go to a hostel,

00:28:27.940 | potentially even book a room and not stay in it.

00:28:29.700 | - Yes, I did that before.

00:28:31.460 | - Because I imagine sometimes,

00:28:32.940 | if you were traveling with your partner, what would you do?

00:28:35.820 | - Oh, so the second tip is to not travel with your partner.

00:28:38.700 | - Okay.

00:28:39.540 | - Yeah, so when I started traveling,

00:28:40.540 | and I've never enjoyed traveling with a partner,

00:28:43.620 | if you are trying to make friends.

00:28:45.580 | So the minute I became sort of self-sufficient in a way,

00:28:49.060 | like I started traveling with a partner,

00:28:51.260 | but I find it actually really important to travel single.

00:28:54.140 | - Okay.

00:28:54.980 | - Is that, do you agree or disagree with that?

00:28:57.300 | - I think it depends.

00:28:58.140 | My wife and I love to explore places together.

00:29:00.540 | So I have that kind of player two to go on these trips.

00:29:03.580 | - But you're never gonna get player three.

00:29:05.300 | - Sometimes.

00:29:06.340 | - It's gonna be weird as a third wheel.

00:29:07.740 | - Well, we went to South Africa

00:29:09.780 | and we wanted to explore by car and we were cheap.

00:29:13.460 | And we were like, well, a car holds more than two people.

00:29:15.340 | So what do we do?

00:29:16.180 | And we met these two Swedish guys

00:29:18.300 | and the four of us together bought a tent,

00:29:20.820 | rented a car, bought four sleeping bags.

00:29:23.540 | And we drove around for three weeks through Namibia

00:29:26.220 | and Botswana and Zambia and South Africa as a team of four.

00:29:30.660 | Those two player twos, we didn't find the three,

00:29:32.500 | but we found the three and the four together.

00:29:34.260 | But they were both single guys.

00:29:35.900 | They were not in a relationship.

00:29:37.300 | So we had a third and fourth wheel.

00:29:39.580 | - Third and fourth wheel.

00:29:40.660 | But that is significantly harder

00:29:42.180 | than if you were by yourself, correct?

00:29:44.100 | - But your strategy seems to be trying to engage with

00:29:46.980 | and meet people who are also traveling.

00:29:49.980 | How do you try to engage and meet people local

00:29:51.700 | to the community and learn more about their culture?

00:29:54.220 | - Yeah, so I found that school networks

00:29:58.080 | were also very helpful.

00:29:59.700 | So the Harvard alumni, so I graduated from Harvard

00:30:02.420 | and the alumni network is really global.

00:30:04.700 | And Harvard people tend to stick together

00:30:06.540 | because they think they're better than others.

00:30:08.020 | So I hope no one's listening to this.

00:30:10.540 | But I try to check like local Harvard clubs.

00:30:13.340 | And if I know a friend that is from that country,

00:30:15.620 | like on Facebook, you know,

00:30:16.820 | remember the time of the social graph on Facebook

00:30:19.300 | where you could just search which one of my friends

00:30:21.380 | is now in Botswana or lives in Botswana.

00:30:23.700 | And you'd get a couple of people

00:30:25.020 | in every one of these countries.

00:30:26.260 | And that's really all you need.

00:30:27.300 | It's all about getting the hook.

00:30:28.940 | The one person that will open the doors to you

00:30:31.380 | to meet the next 10 people.

00:30:33.260 | That's how I think about it.

00:30:34.100 | So I just find the hook in the first two days

00:30:36.100 | and then the hook takes care of everything else.

00:30:37.680 | They find me the next 10 people.

00:30:38.780 | - Do you ever find the hook

00:30:39.820 | just like at a bar, at a restaurant?

00:30:41.660 | 'Cause I think that's what people assume.

00:30:42.900 | They assume I'm gonna go to a bar

00:30:44.040 | and I'm gonna randomly talk to a stranger

00:30:45.780 | and now I'm gonna go on a--

00:30:47.220 | - That's how you find the hook up.

00:30:49.360 | (laughing)

00:30:50.200 | Not the hook.

00:30:51.460 | So I found it very difficult to meet people at a restaurant

00:30:53.740 | 'cause you're sitting down the whole time.

00:30:55.780 | How do you meet people at a restaurant?

00:30:57.340 | - Or a bar or like an event like that.

00:30:59.900 | Maybe not a restaurant.

00:31:00.940 | Yeah, no, I had no success in this.

00:31:02.940 | - Okay.

00:31:03.780 | Is there something every time you go to a new country

00:31:05.660 | that you try to make sure you do?

00:31:06.980 | - Yeah, well, it was by nature of my job

00:31:10.000 | but I try to make videos as much as possible

00:31:12.580 | of every person I go to.

00:31:13.820 | Because I found that when you travel,

00:31:15.220 | like you're making so many memories

00:31:16.860 | but you'll forget these memories

00:31:18.140 | if you don't take videos of them.

00:31:19.620 | For me, travel is a form of archiving.

00:31:22.840 | Like literally I feel like

00:31:23.680 | I have my camera with me at all time.

00:31:24.860 | Like, you know, like memorize, memorize, memorize, memorize

00:31:28.180 | 'cause you wanna not forget this experience.

00:31:30.420 | That's how I became a video maker and traveling video maker.

00:31:33.380 | - How do you make sure you're not just living

00:31:35.300 | behind the camera when you're traveling?

00:31:37.160 | - I am living behind the camera when I'm traveling.

00:31:38.740 | Who said I'm not?

00:31:39.580 | (laughing)

00:31:41.060 | Do you make content when you travel?

00:31:43.000 | - Almost never.

00:31:43.860 | - Almost never?

00:31:45.220 | - I make content about the travels.

00:31:47.580 | So I'll go to a country,

00:31:48.500 | come back and talk about the experience.

00:31:49.860 | - You're kidding.

00:31:50.820 | - I mean, I made a video once in a country

00:31:53.340 | talking about how I got there.

00:31:55.060 | But I don't know, I wanna like be there

00:31:57.660 | and I don't wanna be distracted

00:31:59.100 | from wandering around and seeing things,

00:32:01.780 | thinking about, oh, well, I gotta go record this thing.

00:32:04.060 | For me, that seems like it'd be overwhelming.

00:32:05.660 | - Wow, that's interesting.

00:32:06.980 | Well, I guess you and I travel differently.

00:32:08.540 | We should try to travel together one day.

00:32:09.980 | - I would like to see what that goes.

00:32:11.520 | So I don't know how many countries you've been to,

00:32:13.160 | but it's a lot.

00:32:14.040 | You've hit off countries

00:32:14.880 | that many people have never been to.

00:32:17.020 | What are some places that you think

00:32:18.620 | people are just sleeping on that are really underrated?

00:32:21.900 | - So five days ago, I was in Greenland

00:32:24.340 | and I think it's a really place

00:32:26.860 | that a lot of people are sleeping on.

00:32:28.740 | Nobody lives in Greenland.

00:32:29.740 | Only 57,000 people live in Greenland

00:32:31.840 | and very few people visit it.

00:32:33.080 | And the people that visit it

00:32:33.920 | are usually like the older population.

00:32:35.900 | But I'd say Greenland is hard to get to

00:32:37.660 | and that's why a lot of people are sleeping on it.

00:32:39.780 | But generally, I found that Asia

00:32:43.900 | is full of surprises,

00:32:47.780 | probably more than Europe and Africa and Latin America.

00:32:51.920 | I found Asia to be like much more full of energy

00:32:55.060 | and it has 60% of the world's humans, right?

00:32:57.200 | So it is the majority of the world.

00:32:59.220 | So I become a big fan of Asia after traveling there.

00:33:02.160 | I'd say Maldives,

00:33:03.000 | not a whole lot of Americans went to the Maldives.

00:33:04.600 | It's the only country I went to five times

00:33:07.480 | that go back to, five times,

00:33:08.780 | most countries I try not to go back to.

00:33:10.620 | But the Maldives just has a special aura

00:33:13.740 | that I just feel like it's missing in American zeitgeist.

00:33:17.040 | It's not there, why?

00:33:18.720 | - So the feedback I've heard

00:33:19.560 | from everyone that's been to Maldives,

00:33:20.720 | so I'm wondering if you did it differently,

00:33:22.160 | was like you basically land at a resort

00:33:24.720 | and you stay at the resort the whole time

00:33:25.920 | and then you leave.

00:33:27.080 | - And what's better than that?

00:33:28.760 | - Is that the experience?

00:33:30.120 | I think you love connecting with locals

00:33:31.520 | and having these like amazing experiences.

00:33:33.240 | I look at all your videos and the Maldives,

00:33:35.320 | I think it's like you just stay at an expensive hotel.

00:33:37.280 | That's it.

00:33:38.120 | It seems like antithetical to the thing

00:33:39.440 | you would normally love doing.

00:33:41.300 | - That's why when I go to countries with big populations,

00:33:44.040 | it's work and you're making videos, it's work.

00:33:46.680 | But when I go to the Maldives, it's actual travel for me

00:33:49.360 | because there's no people to make videos about,

00:33:51.120 | there's no videos to make, you're just actually relaxing.

00:33:53.880 | So maybe that's why, actually I never thought about that.

00:33:55.920 | That's why I like the Maldives.

00:33:57.280 | It is where I relax.

00:33:58.760 | - So that's how I travel, I'm not making the videos.

00:34:01.240 | You just need to go somewhere and not make a video.

00:34:03.520 | - What's your goal when you travel?

00:34:05.040 | - Learning and eating new things.

00:34:06.760 | - Learning and eating new things.

00:34:07.600 | - So like meeting interesting people,

00:34:09.100 | hearing different perspectives, seeing different things,

00:34:11.600 | thinking about how those things came to be,

00:34:13.720 | why things happened in a certain way.

00:34:15.280 | - Have you been to Easter Island?

00:34:16.960 | - No.

00:34:17.800 | - Okay, you should check it out, it's close.

00:34:19.560 | Easter Island is like you can learn things,

00:34:20.960 | there's people there and it's like really remote,

00:34:23.560 | like the Maldives.

00:34:24.560 | - Okay, yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong.

00:34:26.520 | Our version of the Maldives,

00:34:27.760 | 'cause I think you live in Dubai

00:34:28.960 | and I live in the Bay Area, is Bora Bora.

00:34:31.040 | It's like eight hour flight, super easy,

00:34:33.200 | compared to the Maldives,

00:34:34.200 | which is like literally maybe halfway around the world.

00:34:36.560 | - And how often do you go to Bora Bora?

00:34:37.960 | - We went twice and it was super relaxing,

00:34:40.620 | but it didn't really feel like travel in that.

00:34:44.640 | There are some like local things that the hotel makes,

00:34:47.840 | but when we go to Thailand,

00:34:49.720 | it's like let's go to some back alley night market,

00:34:52.920 | let's sit down on a stool and eat something delicious

00:34:55.720 | and meet random people and talk about what they're doing

00:34:59.160 | and then find out where that leads us

00:35:01.620 | and wander and explore.

00:35:03.200 | That doesn't happen.

00:35:04.200 | Those are the most memorable experiences for me.

00:35:06.880 | I love relaxing on a beach also.

00:35:09.720 | To me, they're two totally different things.

00:35:11.560 | - I guess it depends on how much you travel per year.

00:35:13.720 | 'Cause if you travel for three, four, five months a year,

00:35:15.920 | which is how much I travel for work and for fun,

00:35:19.000 | sometimes I wanna relax by doing that, the two weeks thing.

00:35:22.120 | But most people have two weeks to travel,

00:35:24.160 | so you wanna do as much crazy things as possible.

00:35:26.420 | Drink at a bar in Thailand and go hopping

00:35:28.800 | in Taiwan or Japan.

00:35:30.160 | So I understand why that is appealing as well.

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00:35:35.400 | a fully balanced diet every day,

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00:38:10.760 | I just wanna thank you quick for listening to

00:38:14.280 | and supporting the show.

00:38:15.760 | Your support is what keeps this show going.

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00:38:23.060 | you can go to allthehacks.com/deals.

00:38:26.620 | So please consider supporting those who support us.

00:38:29.860 | So let's rewind.

00:38:31.700 | - Yes.

00:38:32.540 | - I think one of the interesting things,

00:38:33.660 | for people who don't know your story,

00:38:35.620 | there's a million podcasts they can go listen to

00:38:37.780 | to hear your story.

00:38:39.060 | But the one aspect of it I wanna focus on

00:38:41.420 | that I think is relevant to a lot of people

00:38:43.020 | is taking a big bet on yourself.

00:38:45.520 | - Yes.

00:38:46.360 | - You quit a job that was, for many people, a dream job,

00:38:48.540 | and you bet on yourself.

00:38:49.760 | And a lot of people do that by saying,

00:38:51.060 | "I'm gonna start a little side hustle."

00:38:53.440 | I sometimes think in order to make something work,

00:38:54.940 | you kind of have to go all in on it and commit.

00:38:57.480 | You could tell about the experience,

00:38:59.740 | but how did you build up that conviction?

00:39:01.800 | And how did you find a way to make it even more affordable?

00:39:05.860 | You stretched your dollars way more

00:39:07.340 | than most people do when they quit.

00:39:08.180 | - Yeah, and that's what people don't realize

00:39:09.860 | is that living in New York or SF

00:39:12.740 | is actually really dangerous.

00:39:14.320 | Because now you are really enslaved

00:39:16.540 | to the daily life costs of living here.

00:39:19.740 | And you're just talking about this,

00:39:21.300 | like you need a lot of money every month just to survive.

00:39:23.900 | Can we talk about it?

00:39:24.740 | How much do you need per month to survive?

00:39:26.380 | - Me particularly?

00:39:27.220 | - You particularly, yeah.

00:39:28.540 | - It's funny, 'cause my wife and I had this conversation,

00:39:30.380 | 'cause now I'm a creator,

00:39:31.780 | and the income of a creator is more variable, right?

00:39:35.340 | It could be very high, but also if the economy collapses

00:39:38.260 | and brands stop wanting to advertise,

00:39:40.460 | it could go to zero.

00:39:41.300 | - Yes.

00:39:42.120 | - There's an amount of money in my mind

00:39:43.380 | that's like we could live on somewhere.

00:39:47.280 | And then there's an amount of money that it's like

00:39:48.580 | we could keep living our current lifestyle.

00:39:50.380 | And I think that number is like almost maybe two X.

00:39:54.240 | - Wow.

00:39:55.080 | - I think that if you didn't need to live in the Bay Area,

00:39:58.920 | first off--

00:39:59.760 | - But it's in the tens of thousands.

00:40:00.980 | - Yeah.

00:40:01.820 | - It's not like $3,000.

00:40:02.660 | - No.

00:40:03.480 | - Which is crazy talk if you think about this.

00:40:05.020 | Like if anybody listening to this,

00:40:06.420 | you need tens of thousands of dollars

00:40:08.660 | to maintain a lifestyle here in San Francisco, right?

00:40:12.740 | Which means you will always need--

00:40:14.700 | - I wouldn't say that, I'd say it's maybe me,

00:40:16.740 | but I would say when we were living in San Francisco,

00:40:18.700 | before we had children,

00:40:20.420 | I think our annual burn was under 10,000 a month for sure.

00:40:24.220 | - Got it.

00:40:25.060 | - But that's still high too for two people.

00:40:26.500 | - For two people, definitely under 10.

00:40:28.020 | - So my burn in New York,

00:40:29.220 | and this is why I decided to better myself,

00:40:30.700 | my burn in New York was roughly $3,500 per month.

00:40:34.740 | And my salary was roughly seven.

00:40:36.700 | But that still was a little bit too high

00:40:38.460 | for my own comfort.

00:40:39.460 | And I realized that if I just leave my job

00:40:41.580 | and use my savings and burn $1,000 in India or Ethiopia

00:40:46.020 | and learn and work on self-improving myself,

00:40:48.900 | I could extend my runway by two years,

00:40:50.660 | three years, four years.

00:40:51.860 | And so that's what I did.

00:40:52.820 | I just left my life in New York

00:40:54.460 | and I went to Kenya, Nairobi, Kenya,

00:40:56.420 | and I started learning how to make videos

00:40:58.460 | and traveling by making videos and connecting with locals.

00:41:01.460 | And the first two years, of course, it was self-sustained.

00:41:04.420 | I was losing money, using my own savings,

00:41:06.580 | but I was still saving money from,

00:41:09.220 | if I stayed living in New York,

00:41:11.980 | I would have spent more money.

00:41:14.380 | So it made sense to travel.

00:41:15.580 | Traveling for me was a way to save money.

00:41:18.460 | And that's what people don't realize

00:41:19.940 | is that traveling should be expensive.

00:41:21.940 | Actually, no, if you leave America,

00:41:25.020 | the world is shockingly cheap.

00:41:26.980 | - If you leave your life for two weeks,

00:41:28.780 | you don't save any money.

00:41:30.460 | But if you leave your life for six months or 12 months--

00:41:32.340 | - You save a lot of money.

00:41:33.180 | - You can save money.

00:41:34.020 | In fact, when we left our life for eight months,

00:41:36.900 | we traveled around the world,

00:41:38.300 | we subletted our apartment, right?

00:41:40.020 | 'Cause we couldn't get out of our lease,

00:41:41.260 | but we had all this furniture and we thought,

00:41:42.620 | "Oh, well, we could probably rent it

00:41:43.660 | for more than we're paying because it has furniture."

00:41:46.140 | And we almost broke even on the cost to travel.

00:41:49.940 | So it's just traveling for free

00:41:51.220 | because we actually made that kind of major change.

00:41:53.700 | - And you had all these point hacks and whatnot.

00:41:55.460 | - Yeah, back then I didn't have as many,

00:41:57.300 | but the number one way to burn money traveling

00:42:00.620 | is to fly on an airplane.

00:42:01.940 | The marginal cost to add an extra week

00:42:04.740 | to a trip to Thailand is very low

00:42:07.700 | relative to the marginal cost

00:42:09.140 | to come back for another week later.

00:42:10.940 | - Yeah, so the cost of a one-week trip

00:42:12.420 | versus a five-week trip.

00:42:14.060 | - I wish I had a rule of thumb,

00:42:15.300 | but I would say a five-week trip is probably cheaper

00:42:17.620 | than two one-week trips, is my guess.

00:42:20.220 | Just because, at least for us,

00:42:22.060 | it's hard to find international flight

00:42:23.220 | for less than $1,000.

00:42:24.860 | The way we were traveling at the time,

00:42:26.500 | it's very easy to find a place to stay for $10 a night.

00:42:29.100 | You know, our budget was like under $30 a day.

00:42:31.420 | Yes, points and miles make the flights cheaper,

00:42:33.500 | but there's no way, if you don't have points,

00:42:35.660 | to make the flight.

00:42:36.740 | - Yeah, this is also an American problem

00:42:38.740 | because you're really surrounded by nothing.

00:42:40.900 | Like San Francisco, if you wanna get to the next country,

00:42:44.340 | if it's not Mexico or Canada,

00:42:46.380 | you're looking at like seven hours.

00:42:48.420 | That's like very far.

00:42:50.660 | And if you live in, let's say, Dubai,

00:42:52.020 | you can reach, I think, 60% of the world

00:42:54.980 | within seven hours.

00:42:56.260 | Did you know that?

00:42:57.140 | So like a flight from Dubai to Pakistan is like cheap.

00:43:00.140 | Pakistan to like say Thailand, cheap.

00:43:01.500 | Like Thailand to Laos, cheap, right?

00:43:03.260 | So it's all these flights are so interconnected.

00:43:06.020 | The world is much more closer to each other

00:43:08.460 | outside of the American continent.

00:43:10.220 | - Yeah.

00:43:11.060 | - It's just the North America and South American continents

00:43:12.420 | are just way too stretched vertically

00:43:15.180 | that it becomes really difficult to travel.

00:43:16.900 | And that's why I find it hard to live here

00:43:19.400 | 'cause you cannot travel in an efficient manner,

00:43:22.780 | financially and like time-wise.

00:43:25.340 | - Well, I think you could play the points game.

00:43:27.340 | (laughing)

00:43:28.340 | - Yes, that I don't know how to do.

00:43:29.580 | - We gotta work on that.

00:43:30.540 | - Just for context, I'm the kind of guy

00:43:32.220 | who has 20 t-shirts that look identical to each other

00:43:35.420 | in his entire wardrobe.

00:43:36.940 | So I'm also like scared of like buying a different t-shirt

00:43:41.060 | because I don't wanna make the decision

00:43:42.740 | of which t-shirt to wear today.

00:43:45.720 | I'm on a mission to streamline my life

00:43:47.620 | in a way that allows me to not think.

00:43:51.580 | - Let's talk about that.

00:43:52.420 | - Yes.

00:43:53.240 | - What are other ways you do that?

00:43:54.500 | - So it's same shoes, two pants, all the same color.

00:43:59.700 | 20 t-shirts, all the same designs,

00:44:01.880 | same everything, identical.

00:44:03.500 | I have no material object

00:44:05.100 | that I have any emotional attachment to in my life

00:44:08.220 | other than my laptop.

00:44:09.780 | And my laptop is replaceable because it's locked

00:44:11.780 | and it's all in the cloud.

00:44:12.620 | So even if I lose my laptop, it's fine.

00:44:14.380 | So if anybody gets into my house,

00:44:16.900 | they can steal anything they want and I don't care.

00:44:19.060 | I've never locked my house in three years.

00:44:21.040 | My phone, I guess I have an emotional attachment

00:44:22.940 | to my phone.

00:44:23.780 | So I'm only emotionally attached to my phone and my laptop

00:44:26.100 | and that's it.

00:44:26.940 | - And some servers in the cloud

00:44:28.020 | that are holding all of your important--

00:44:29.100 | - All my important, yeah.

00:44:30.220 | But nothing else in my life is important.

00:44:32.460 | - Okay.

00:44:33.300 | What about decisions around what to eat?

00:44:35.580 | - Oh, that I also streamlined.

00:44:37.180 | So I'm vegetarian, which basically means 90% of food menus

00:44:40.800 | are not relevant to me

00:44:42.020 | 'cause they're full of dead animals.

00:44:43.800 | And I also try to eat like the same thing.

00:44:45.940 | So I try to eat the same thing for breakfast,

00:44:48.220 | the same thing for dinner, same thing for lunch.

00:44:50.500 | So eggs, it has like a lot of proteins and a salad.

00:44:54.420 | Egg salad, egg salad, egg salad every single day.

00:44:56.480 | So now I don't have to think about food.

00:44:58.340 | What else?

00:44:59.300 | - Health, like exercise.

00:45:01.140 | - Oh, health, yeah.

00:45:02.100 | One hour per day, that's it.

00:45:04.000 | Same exercise.

00:45:04.980 | - What kind of exercise?

00:45:05.900 | - Oh, and also don't have to think about what I exercise

00:45:07.780 | 'cause I have a personal trainer.

00:45:09.000 | - Okay.

00:45:09.840 | - So he comes and tells me,

00:45:10.660 | "Move your hand left, move your hand right."

00:45:11.860 | And I say, "Okay."

00:45:12.900 | And so now I've been able to save my brain capacity

00:45:16.940 | to focus on what really matters, right?

00:45:19.220 | Building a company, making videos, furthering my career.

00:45:22.780 | And I don't do laundry.

00:45:23.740 | I'm very, very lucky to not have to do laundry.

00:45:25.700 | I never clean after myself.

00:45:27.100 | I never cook.

00:45:28.460 | I just don't wanna do things that are like maintenance jobs.

00:45:32.620 | So maintenance job, eating is a maintenance job,

00:45:34.940 | but cooking is a maintenance job.

00:45:35.940 | You eat today, you poop it in the next five hours, right?

00:45:38.900 | And then you have to do it again next five hours

00:45:40.780 | and again and again and again for the rest of your life.

00:45:42.900 | So unless you derive joy from cooking, which I don't,

00:45:47.180 | there's no point to cook.

00:45:48.900 | And there's no point to clean

00:45:49.900 | because it's gonna get dirty the next day.

00:45:51.320 | So you need to be able to like find somebody

00:45:53.940 | to help you clean.

00:45:55.540 | And this way I just don't do any maintenance work

00:45:57.700 | and also focus on just building,

00:46:01.100 | like growing on top of what I built yesterday.

00:46:03.740 | - Okay.

00:46:04.580 | - Does that make sense?

00:46:05.400 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:46:06.240 | - Does it sound conceited or rich people stuff?

00:46:07.300 | - I mean, I happen to know that you live in a country

00:46:09.220 | where having someone help you do laundry and cook or clean

00:46:13.580 | is significantly less expensive than it is in the States.

00:46:17.140 | - Yeah, I still pay quite a lot.

00:46:18.380 | I'm paying double the market rates.

00:46:19.700 | I do believe in like fair wage, that's important.

00:46:21.980 | But even here, you can get a helper in America

00:46:23.900 | for like two hours.

00:46:24.940 | You can get food delivery.

00:46:25.820 | Everybody gets food delivery.

00:46:26.660 | I get food delivery.

00:46:27.500 | I don't need somebody to cook for me.

00:46:28.340 | It's something I did before I got rich as well.

00:46:30.500 | And I never cleaned my room when I was poor.

00:46:32.340 | When I was two, I never did it.

00:46:33.900 | Are you kidding?

00:46:34.740 | Why would I?

00:46:35.860 | So yeah.

00:46:37.940 | - Are there maintenance jobs that do bring you joy

00:46:40.320 | that you like to do?

00:46:41.900 | - No.

00:46:42.740 | - How do you like to spend your time for fun?

00:46:44.180 | - What is fun?

00:46:45.620 | No, I'm joking.

00:46:46.460 | Do you do maintenance?

00:46:47.280 | I'm actually more interested in you.

00:46:48.120 | Do you do maintenance stuff?

00:46:49.420 | - Some things I like, for weird reasons, enjoy.

00:46:52.860 | - Like what?

00:46:53.680 | - We have a hot tub.

00:46:54.540 | You got to balance the chemicals on the hot tub.

00:46:56.740 | And like, it's kind of fun.

00:46:57.900 | I take my two and a half year old daughter.

00:46:59.540 | We go scoop up a little water.

00:47:00.740 | We put it in the thing and we see the chemicals

00:47:02.620 | and we measure it out.

00:47:03.460 | - But that's a five minute job.

00:47:04.340 | - Yeah, it's not that long.

00:47:05.460 | But it's something that, oh, we got to do that this week.

00:47:07.940 | Like we could hire someone to come to the house and do it.

00:47:10.260 | I really struggle, and it sounds like you don't,

00:47:13.720 | with things where the mental burden

00:47:18.100 | or the overhead of thinking about it

00:47:20.180 | doesn't quite equate to the cost.

00:47:21.860 | And so you don't factor it in as well.

00:47:23.820 | So for someone to come to the house

00:47:25.460 | and put some chemicals in the hot tub,

00:47:26.940 | it takes five minutes, right?

00:47:28.520 | I'm sure the cost for that is gonna be more

00:47:31.280 | than like an average hourly wage times five over 60.

00:47:35.220 | You know, like it's just gonna be much more expensive

00:47:37.180 | than that, I assume.

00:47:38.500 | I've looked a little bit.

00:47:39.660 | And so it's just hard for me to be like,

00:47:40.900 | I'm gonna pay someone $200 a month

00:47:42.500 | to come to my house for five minutes, three times.

00:47:44.740 | - But you're not factoring your like brain cost.

00:47:46.700 | - No, no, I think it's very hard for many people,

00:47:48.620 | myself included, to factor in that kind of like cost

00:47:51.540 | of doing all of these other things in life.

00:47:53.500 | - Yeah, exactly.

00:47:54.780 | So if we add that hidden cost to what we do,

00:47:57.900 | I think many people will not do what they do today.

00:48:02.140 | Many people will stop cooking

00:48:03.700 | if they factor in the value of one hour

00:48:06.540 | of freedom outside of work in your 20s,

00:48:09.900 | when you could be building a startup

00:48:11.420 | or building a career or building a whatever

00:48:12.980 | or building a family, right?

00:48:14.400 | Now, again, big disclaimer is if you enjoy cooking,

00:48:17.220 | like it's amazing.

00:48:18.060 | And if you don't enjoy cooking,

00:48:18.980 | then that's where the problem is.

00:48:20.120 | - What do you encourage someone to do with that extra time?

00:48:22.140 | Not everyone knows I wanna start a company.

00:48:24.300 | Are there things you think people should be spending

00:48:25.820 | more of their time on if it's not maintenance work?

00:48:27.940 | - So what's not maintenance work?

00:48:29.220 | I think that's a really important question.

00:48:30.740 | What is not maintenance?

00:48:31.660 | So in life, maintenance is cleaning your car is maintenance,

00:48:34.900 | doing your bed is maintenance,

00:48:36.380 | cooking food is maintenance, right?

00:48:37.900 | To maintain your thing.

00:48:39.260 | But what I think is not maintenance

00:48:40.620 | is building relationships, building family, right?

00:48:44.460 | 'Cause if I invest today in my wife or my husband

00:48:46.620 | or whatever, in the future, it results in a nice family.

00:48:49.820 | So I don't view that as maintenance.

00:48:51.380 | I view that as building for the future,

00:48:52.980 | building a company, building a career

00:48:55.780 | and building your body, right?

00:48:56.900 | Like focusing on your fitness and physique, right?

00:48:59.300 | I think those are the four things I've identified

00:49:01.360 | as non-maintenance things.

00:49:03.020 | And I'm happy to invest in them.

00:49:04.740 | I invest a lot.

00:49:05.580 | And because I'm single now, unfortunately,

00:49:07.980 | I invest a lot of my time into fitness

00:49:10.260 | and building my business.

00:49:11.860 | I have two companies, so I'm building those.

00:49:13.140 | So that's the only thing I view as non-maintenance work.

00:49:16.700 | Everything else is maintenance.

00:49:18.780 | - So there is one thing about travel

00:49:19.900 | that I noticed that's interesting about you.

00:49:21.900 | I have seen you travel to places like the Maldives.

00:49:24.020 | You post all your travels online.

00:49:25.140 | Anyone listening can see them.

00:49:26.420 | And you would think someone successful like you,

00:49:28.140 | someone with money like you would travel in a certain way.

00:49:31.720 | And even when you're traveling for work,

00:49:34.260 | you're still not staying at the Four Seasons.

00:49:36.780 | And I'm curious, what is it about your style of travel,

00:49:40.620 | your belief about money?

00:49:43.020 | It seems like you don't think you have enough money

00:49:45.780 | and you're still in this like scarcity mindset.

00:49:48.180 | - Yeah, man, it's just listening to this,

00:49:50.660 | I get a little bit sad because I'm mentally poor.

00:49:54.900 | There is a thing called mental poverty

00:49:57.460 | and I feel mentally poor,

00:49:58.780 | even though my bank account has millions of dollars.

00:50:01.420 | But mentally, I feel poor and I don't know why.

00:50:04.300 | Maybe because my formative childhood years,

00:50:06.620 | I spent obsessing over $2 here, $3 there,

00:50:10.100 | saving $2 there, that I just don't see

00:50:13.580 | why I would wanna spend $200 extra

00:50:16.620 | for the same bed and the same roof,

00:50:18.780 | just because it's a Four Seasons.

00:50:20.500 | So now I'm staying at a place called Axiom,

00:50:22.840 | which is like 100 meters away from the Four Seasons.

00:50:25.360 | But it's like 250 bucks in San Francisco, not bad,

00:50:28.220 | as opposed to 500 bucks, so I'm saving a lot of money.

00:50:31.260 | But I don't know, what do you do?

00:50:32.700 | 'Cause we have similar net worth.

00:50:34.060 | People don't know this, Chris,

00:50:35.460 | but you and I have the same amount of money,

00:50:37.580 | which is crazy 'cause I have 60 million

00:50:39.140 | more followers than you.

00:50:41.100 | And I don't know why I couldn't monetize.

00:50:43.180 | But how do you spend money at the Four Seasons?

00:50:47.260 | - So, this is why I like points, by the way.

00:50:49.860 | - Oh my God.

00:50:50.780 | - I'm just saying, I enjoy nice hotels.

00:50:54.200 | It's so funny, I talk to people all the time

00:50:57.020 | to tell me how much they spend on vacation,

00:50:58.380 | and I'm like, wow, I could never spend that much money.

00:51:00.620 | Like, you're gonna spend $1,000 a night on a hotel?

00:51:02.720 | That seems wild, like why would you do that?

00:51:05.500 | I don't get a ton of value out of some aspects of travel,

00:51:09.080 | and I do on others.

00:51:10.160 | So if I was going to try to have some experience,

00:51:13.700 | I'd rather hire the right person

00:51:16.280 | to take me through the market,

00:51:17.160 | to show me all the interesting things,

00:51:18.380 | who's a local who's been there and support that community,

00:51:20.660 | than to pay for a hotel that has nicer furnishings.

00:51:24.560 | - Yes, because you like experiences.

00:51:26.620 | - Yeah.

00:51:27.460 | - But staying at a hotel can be an experience.

00:51:29.820 | - I could imagine spending more money for a hotel

00:51:31.660 | that gives you the experience that you describe

00:51:34.260 | in the Maldives, where you're over the water

00:51:36.020 | and you have a bunch of extra things.

00:51:37.580 | But if I'm in San Francisco,

00:51:39.140 | I don't even know if I'd want to spend,

00:51:40.300 | I was in New York, and I was like,

00:51:41.540 | what is the absolute cheapest hotel I can stay at

00:51:44.200 | that isn't like two stars, just like horrible reviews?

00:51:48.340 | So I say to the Yotel, I don't recommend it.

00:51:50.860 | I wouldn't ever tell anyone you should stay there,

00:51:52.620 | it was an amazing experience.

00:51:54.380 | I got checked in at 11 p.m.,

00:51:55.980 | and they're like, your room's not ready.

00:51:57.220 | And I'm like, how is it not ready?

00:51:58.340 | It's 11 p.m., like this doesn't even make sense.

00:52:00.500 | And they're like, oh, it might be a clerical error.

00:52:02.100 | And then 20 minutes later, it was magically ready.

00:52:04.140 | It looked like a room that they designed 10 years ago,

00:52:06.740 | and then have not repainted any of the things

00:52:09.220 | that have chipped off.

00:52:10.060 | - That's crazy.

00:52:11.220 | - And it was also $250 a night.

00:52:13.340 | - Which is crazy expensive.

00:52:14.700 | - Crazy expensive.

00:52:15.920 | I've talked to a lot of people

00:52:17.380 | on this topic of mental poverty,

00:52:19.460 | and the idea that you ask anyone

00:52:21.620 | how much money they want to get to,

00:52:23.140 | and once they get there, they're never done.

00:52:25.620 | They're always want more, they always want more,

00:52:27.180 | they always want more.

00:52:28.020 | And then I've talked to a few people

00:52:28.940 | that have just completely disconnected from the concept,

00:52:31.100 | and they're like, I just don't care.

00:52:32.880 | And I think in the last couple of years,

00:52:36.140 | I've kind of stopped caring about growing net worth.

00:52:39.200 | Doesn't matter.

00:52:40.040 | - Really?

00:52:40.860 | - Yeah.

00:52:41.700 | And I had this conversation with my wife

00:52:42.540 | where we were talking about what our goals were,

00:52:43.860 | and she was like, I want to get to this net worth target.

00:52:46.600 | And I was like, I don't.

00:52:48.300 | She was like, really?

00:52:49.140 | You don't want to get there?

00:52:49.960 | And I was like, why do we want to have more money saved?

00:52:51.900 | Now, if we have more money, would we rather spend it?

00:52:53.780 | Would you rather give it away?

00:52:54.900 | Like, what things would we want to do with our money

00:52:56.620 | than just build up this like Scrooge McDuck pile of money?

00:53:00.180 | And I don't feel like I care about flying in a private jet.

00:53:03.660 | If you think of like, if you could have unlimited money,

00:53:05.780 | what would you do?

00:53:06.940 | There's not that many different things.

00:53:08.460 | I realized I speak from a place of privilege right now,

00:53:11.220 | but there's not that many more things

00:53:12.540 | that I think my money is worth doing anything

00:53:15.660 | that I don't enjoy doing to get.

00:53:17.720 | And so if I didn't like doing this job,

00:53:20.020 | should I keep doing it?

00:53:20.860 | No, I should stop doing it.

00:53:21.940 | Should my wife do her job if she doesn't like it?

00:53:23.300 | No, like we should stop doing the things

00:53:24.940 | because we're in a place that we can.

00:53:27.180 | And I think I've been able to not care as much

00:53:29.720 | about money as I did.

00:53:31.340 | - That actually means you're mentally rich.

00:53:33.460 | That's what I'm hearing.

00:53:34.300 | - Yeah, I used to feel mentally poor

00:53:37.260 | and I don't feel that way anymore.

00:53:38.660 | - So the congratulations,

00:53:39.720 | you have defeated the poverty in your brain

00:53:42.280 | because the minute you stop caring about money

00:53:44.080 | or fearing about money, then you are mentally rich

00:53:47.820 | and you're living life the way life is supposed to be lived

00:53:49.780 | without worrying or thinking about money.

00:53:52.300 | I'm still in the mental poverty side

00:53:54.100 | because I have a fear of losing it.

00:53:57.300 | I have a fear that the next month it's gonna dry up.

00:54:00.440 | I have a fear that I don't have enough

00:54:02.220 | and I have a fear that I'm still enslaved to it.

00:54:04.980 | - Even though more than me

00:54:06.500 | and more than almost anyone listening

00:54:07.780 | knows how inexpensively you could live somewhere.

00:54:10.380 | - Yes.

00:54:11.220 | - And you probably have enough that you could live

00:54:12.220 | in a place for the rest of your life

00:54:14.020 | and never think about it.

00:54:15.120 | - So it depends what you wanna do with life, right?

00:54:17.360 | So one of my dreams is to start an airline.

00:54:20.160 | I'd like to start a fucking airline, why not?

00:54:22.460 | And I wanna be able to come up with ideas

00:54:26.460 | and see them happen in real life.

00:54:28.540 | For me, that's the ultimate freedom.

00:54:30.740 | It's not to stay at the Four Seasons

00:54:32.300 | and it's not to like buy a Gucci bag

00:54:34.020 | and it's not to like fly in a private jet.

00:54:35.540 | It's come up with ideas for projects

00:54:38.300 | and have enough money to see them happen.

00:54:40.760 | So I'd like to put $10 million into funding a startup

00:54:45.460 | that does fake meat, you know, like cell-based meat.

00:54:48.300 | I would like to try to buy one plane

00:54:50.540 | and see if we can come up with a different airline

00:54:52.760 | that's more fun and more human and more social.

00:54:55.300 | Compete with Virgin Atlantic or whatever.

00:54:57.540 | These are ideas I kinda don't wanna die

00:55:00.420 | without trying them.

00:55:01.260 | I wanna try a hotel.

00:55:02.500 | I wanna build a hotel.

00:55:03.680 | Can I build a better hotel than the Four Seasons

00:55:05.500 | that's like really cool?

00:55:06.780 | So the reason I like money is it enables you

00:55:10.740 | to think crazy and do crazy and be crazy.

00:55:13.860 | And I just love crazy.

00:55:15.660 | So yes, I could live in a house for the rest of my life

00:55:18.100 | and not worry about money and just like, you know,

00:55:19.740 | live on top of a mountain.

00:55:20.780 | But then I'll have so many ideas that I cannot execute on.

00:55:23.260 | And that, for me, is sadness.

00:55:25.700 | That is sadness.

00:55:26.640 | So I still can't execute many of the ideas

00:55:30.300 | that I'd like to do 'cause they're simply too expensive.

00:55:32.940 | - So your relationship is out there.

00:55:34.220 | Your life's out there.

00:55:35.700 | What's the end goal for you?

00:55:36.700 | Is it fame?

00:55:37.540 | Is it money?

00:55:38.360 | Is it building something?

00:55:39.420 | - So fame and money is not an end goal

00:55:41.380 | because people that look like me do not become famous.

00:55:43.740 | So it's not something I think about.

00:55:45.500 | But the end goal is to build something out of nothing.

00:55:49.500 | I think that is probably the sexiest thing in the world.

00:55:52.340 | Create something of value out of nothing, out of thin air.

00:55:57.340 | The United States government creates money out of thin air.

00:56:00.020 | Amazing, right?

00:56:01.300 | But what can you create out of thin air, right?

00:56:03.940 | You created kids.

00:56:05.240 | That's amazing.

00:56:06.260 | That's so magical.

00:56:07.420 | You've created a company, a podcast.

00:56:09.580 | I just feel like the act of going from zero to one

00:56:13.500 | is just better than sex.

00:56:15.820 | And I wish everybody can experience that

00:56:18.660 | at some point in their life, the act of creation,

00:56:21.320 | of creating either a human or a project or a startup

00:56:24.340 | or a company or a piece of content.

00:56:26.260 | And if somebody is not creating enough,

00:56:28.640 | maybe I'll end with that message.

00:56:29.980 | It's like, try to do something from zero to one.

00:56:32.460 | It'll probably be the most satisfying thing

00:56:34.340 | you do in your life.

00:56:35.420 | - Do you have any advice for someone who's like,

00:56:36.460 | "I wanna be creative, but I don't know."

00:56:38.180 | How do they find the thing

00:56:39.340 | that they could go try to create?

00:56:41.020 | - Creative doesn't mean make videos and be artistic

00:56:43.060 | and make a song, right?

00:56:44.340 | Creative can be build an amazing family.

00:56:46.380 | Creative can be build a company, build a house,

00:56:48.380 | a side hobby, build an ebook, whatever.

00:56:50.100 | I think the word creator

00:56:51.660 | should not be just limited to you and me.

00:56:54.580 | A creator is also a father and a mother.

00:56:56.540 | And so--

00:56:57.920 | - And it doesn't have to be public, does it?

00:56:59.600 | - No.

00:57:00.440 | - Write a book, keep it for yourself.

00:57:01.640 | - Keep it for yourself.

00:57:02.480 | - It doesn't have to be something you publish.

00:57:03.440 | - Yes.

00:57:04.280 | - Seen something go from nothing to something.

00:57:06.400 | - Yes, from nothing to something.

00:57:07.480 | And this thing exists purely because of you

00:57:10.160 | and your efforts and your sheer determination and will.

00:57:13.160 | And I just, I find that to be so sexy.

00:57:16.580 | I don't know if other people relate to this message.

00:57:18.480 | If they do, please message me.

00:57:19.720 | Let me know at yassin@naas.io.

00:57:21.760 | Y-A-S-S-I-N @naas.io, N-A-S.io.

00:57:26.280 | But yeah, that's just a feeling that I've,

00:57:28.380 | well, over the last 31 years,

00:57:29.720 | it's the only feeling that's worth pursuing

00:57:31.540 | every single day for the rest of my life.

00:57:33.340 | - I love it.

00:57:34.180 | Well, we're here creating.

00:57:35.200 | Hopefully people enjoy it.

00:57:36.240 | I wanna hear stories.

00:57:37.080 | If people are finding new things to create, send 'em in.

00:57:39.880 | - And also, I did ask people

00:57:40.920 | to send you hate messages, right?

00:57:42.600 | - Yes, you got hate mail coming in.

00:57:44.160 | - Yes.

00:57:45.000 | - And whatever they're creating.

00:57:45.820 | - Yes.

00:57:46.660 | - Perfect.

00:57:47.720 | - Let me know how it goes.

00:57:48.560 | - Let's hear it.

00:57:49.400 | Thanks for coming by.

00:57:50.220 | - Thank you, thank you, Chris.

00:57:51.060 | (upbeat music)

00:57:52.360 | - I really hope you enjoyed this episode.

00:57:54.120 | Thank you so much for listening.

00:57:55.920 | If you haven't already left a rating

00:57:57.440 | and a review for the show in Apple Podcasts or Spotify,

00:58:00.840 | I would really appreciate it.

00:58:02.560 | And if you have any feedback on the show,

00:58:04.000 | questions for me, or just wanna say hi,

00:58:06.380 | I'm Chris@allthehacks.com or @hutchins on Twitter.

00:58:10.640 | That's it for this week.

00:58:11.720 | I'll see you next week.

00:58:12.920 | (upbeat music)

00:58:15.520 | (electronic music)

00:58:18.440 | (electronic music fades)

00:58:21.860 | (birds chirping)

00:58:24.600 | [BLANK_AUDIO]