ATHLLC7616578224

00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)

00:00:02.600 | - Hello, and welcome to another episode of All The Hacks,

00:00:05.200 | a show about upgrading your life, money, and travel.

00:00:07.840 | I'm Chris Hutchins, and I'm so excited you're here today.

00:00:10.280 | Now, as much as we think about money often being like math,

00:00:13.880 | turns out money is often a lot more emotional,

00:00:16.720 | about relationships and the mindset you're in

00:00:19.000 | and not the actual dollars and cents.

00:00:21.140 | And if that doesn't sound right to you,

00:00:23.080 | then definitely go back and listen to my episode

00:00:24.720 | a few weeks ago with Ramit Sethi,

00:00:26.440 | or check out his podcast or his Netflix show,

00:00:28.420 | and I am confident it will change your mind.

00:00:30.440 | So if money is a lot more emotional than rational,

00:00:33.280 | how do you make sense of it?

00:00:34.660 | Well, that is one of the skills of my guest today,

00:00:36.840 | Erin Lowry.

00:00:37.960 | She calls herself a financial translator,

00:00:40.040 | and she's the writer behind "Broke Millennial,"

00:00:42.200 | the website and the book series.

00:00:44.400 | She's written and spoken on personal finance issues

00:00:46.840 | for more than a decade,

00:00:48.080 | and focuses a lot of her effort on helping people

00:00:50.860 | have productive and healthy conversations

00:00:52.880 | about money issues with others.

00:00:54.800 | Whether it's among friends, parents,

00:00:56.560 | or other family members, or even romantic partners.

00:00:59.920 | Now, I know I first read her work many years

00:01:02.580 | before starting this podcast,

00:01:03.860 | probably when I was trying to figure out

00:01:05.200 | how to stop being a broke millennial myself.

00:01:07.760 | And I've wanted to invite Erin on the show for a while,

00:01:10.340 | but I wasn't quite sure what the right topic would be.

00:01:13.320 | Then I was reading her most recent book,

00:01:15.040 | "Broke Millennial Talks Money,"

00:01:16.840 | and I got to chapter seven and it clicked.

00:01:19.160 | The chapter was titled,

00:01:20.440 | "How to Ask Your Parents

00:01:21.620 | "If You Need to Take Care of Them Financially."

00:01:24.000 | As soon as I read it, I thought,

00:01:25.380 | "Hmm, I haven't had that conversation."

00:01:27.240 | And I'm guessing most other people haven't either.

00:01:29.800 | So today we're gonna talk about why it is important

00:01:32.120 | to have that conversation with your parents,

00:01:34.200 | how to actually have the conversation

00:01:35.920 | with some specific scripts you can use,

00:01:37.560 | and what to do next after you have the conversation,

00:01:40.000 | depending on how it goes.

00:01:41.600 | But I also wanna spend time on a few other topics

00:01:44.020 | Erin's an expert on.

00:01:45.420 | So we're gonna spend a little bit of time

00:01:46.680 | on engagement rings, pre-nups and post-nups,

00:01:49.280 | how to talk about money with friends,

00:01:51.560 | lending money to others, and a lot more.

00:01:53.600 | So let's get into it right after this.

00:01:55.880 | Erin, welcome to the show.

00:01:59.280 | Thank you for being here.

00:02:01.100 | - Wonderful to be here.

00:02:02.440 | - Can you start by just telling people

00:02:04.480 | why having this kind of a conversation

00:02:06.180 | with your parents is so important?

00:02:08.200 | - Well, you know, it's funny that you mentioned

00:02:09.960 | the title of chapter seven in the intro,

00:02:12.440 | because it's much gentler than what I really wanted to say.

00:02:15.760 | And my greater point here is,

00:02:18.600 | are you your parents' retirement plan?

00:02:21.280 | That is really the question that all of us

00:02:23.240 | need to get the answer to.

00:02:25.240 | My editor didn't totally love that strong of language,

00:02:28.600 | which I understand.

00:02:29.760 | But that's the critical question for a lot of us,

00:02:32.800 | is how are your parents doing financially, for one?

00:02:37.440 | Two, will they be able to comfortably retire

00:02:41.280 | and live out their days with some form of dignity?

00:02:45.480 | And most of us don't wanna ask that question,

00:02:48.400 | and most of our parents don't wanna give us the answer.

00:02:51.320 | Even if the answer's yes, even if it's,

00:02:53.200 | "We're great, we're flush with cash,"

00:02:54.880 | they might not feel comfortable talking to you about it,

00:02:57.840 | particularly because it can feel

00:02:59.760 | like you're parenting your parent,

00:03:02.000 | which is a very delicate balance to be walking.

00:03:05.600 | But the big thing is, if you don't have the conversation,

00:03:09.720 | what's gonna probably happen is at some point,

00:03:12.080 | there will be an inciting incident,

00:03:13.480 | whether it's a healthcare situation,

00:03:16.040 | or job loss for your parent,

00:03:18.140 | or some sort of disability that happens,

00:03:20.560 | and then it will become very apparent

00:03:22.080 | whether or not they can financially support themselves,

00:03:24.440 | and whether or not you need to step in.

00:03:26.360 | And if you don't have that information,

00:03:28.120 | and you haven't been laying the financial foundation

00:03:30.160 | yourself to do that, are you able to step in?

00:03:32.840 | Do you have the financial freedom to do so,

00:03:34.720 | especially if you've gotten married?

00:03:36.760 | Maybe you have kids, maybe you have an expensive house,

00:03:39.880 | maybe you have something else that's going on in your life.

00:03:43.120 | So that's why we need to talk about it early.

00:03:45.200 | - I can imagine having to support a whole 'nother family,

00:03:48.120 | and maybe you have in-laws, you have two parents,

00:03:49.760 | maybe your parents are separated,

00:03:50.620 | you have four separate households effectively.

00:03:53.080 | Is it common for people to have to support their parents

00:03:55.420 | towards the end of their life?

00:03:57.320 | - The thing for you to know is that it's not uncommon.

00:04:00.320 | In 2021, which is latest figures from AARP,

00:04:04.600 | $600 billion of unpaid contributions for caregivers,

00:04:08.520 | and that's 38 million caregivers

00:04:11.080 | providing an average of 18 hours of care per week,

00:04:14.160 | which sounds kind of crazy.

00:04:17.280 | - That's how much was unpaid, meaning--

00:04:18.920 | - Unpaid. - There was not

00:04:19.760 | enough money, okay.

00:04:20.960 | - Not only that there's not enough money,

00:04:22.640 | the bigger thing is to think that that's,

00:04:24.720 | 38 million people are stepping in to care for their parents,

00:04:28.180 | and they are not receiving

00:04:29.120 | any financial compensation for that.

00:04:31.180 | So you are doing effectively a job for free

00:04:36.000 | in terms of caring for your parents.

00:04:38.340 | And I'm not saying you shouldn't.

00:04:40.840 | I mean, a lot of us would step in

00:04:42.280 | and care for our aging parents,

00:04:44.120 | but the problem is can you balance that in

00:04:47.120 | with working your job, taking care of your children,

00:04:50.280 | living your life?

00:04:51.360 | Do you have the time, the energy, and the finances

00:04:54.440 | to be able to balance all of that?

00:04:56.320 | Because for some of us,

00:04:57.280 | our parents are gonna require a level of care

00:04:59.680 | that is not tenable for holding down a full-time job

00:05:02.440 | in addition to caring for our parents.

00:05:04.040 | Some of our parents are going to have

00:05:06.280 | some sort of in-home aid,

00:05:08.160 | or they're going to have to go into a nursing home

00:05:10.320 | that can provide stability for them

00:05:11.840 | that we just frankly can't.

00:05:14.500 | And the average cost of nursing homes

00:05:16.900 | right now in the United States is about $8,000,

00:05:19.420 | depending on what you're looking into needing.

00:05:21.460 | Do your parents have that kind of money to cover that?

00:05:23.680 | Do you have that kind of money to cover that?

00:05:25.780 | That's a huge sum.

00:05:27.420 | - And that's monthly plus all of the other expenses,

00:05:30.540 | cable bill, and all those kinds of things, I assume.

00:05:32.900 | Maybe nursing homes include your cable bill,

00:05:34.420 | but I am sure there are other costs per month

00:05:36.740 | than that one fee.

00:05:38.400 | - And that most people over the age of 65,

00:05:41.460 | the majority of people will experience

00:05:43.420 | some form of disability at some point.

00:05:45.940 | For some, it'll be short-term.

00:05:47.060 | It could be that you had shoulder surgery

00:05:49.500 | and you needed help for six weeks afterwards.

00:05:52.380 | It could be that you're going through chemotherapy

00:05:54.400 | and you need help.

00:05:55.900 | Or it could be something long-term has happened

00:05:58.460 | and you no longer are physically able to do something,

00:06:00.740 | or you've just aged into a place

00:06:02.500 | where you no longer are physically able

00:06:04.220 | to handle things yourself.

00:06:05.680 | - And we're talking about all of the extra costs

00:06:07.660 | that might come from medical issues or disabilities,

00:06:10.460 | but there's also just the cost to live.

00:06:12.100 | If your parents haven't saved enough for retirement,

00:06:13.820 | just rent, food, bills, that kind of stuff,

00:06:16.700 | someone is going to have to pay them.

00:06:18.580 | And if there's not a plan in place,

00:06:19.900 | I guess any child could say no,

00:06:22.340 | but I imagine the common answer is to try to help out,

00:06:25.780 | given your parents more often than not

00:06:28.020 | were the ones that helped you out for so many years.

00:06:30.540 | So it sounds like you're probably gonna take on that burden.

00:06:34.260 | Are there programs, if you find out your parents

00:06:36.180 | don't have any money, that can help them out?

00:06:38.760 | - There can be.

00:06:39.600 | A lot of this varies.

00:06:40.580 | Speaking specifically to the United States varies by state.

00:06:43.980 | There is Medicaid that might be able to step in,

00:06:46.580 | particularly if you're looking at needing some sort of aid

00:06:49.220 | or a long-term health aid

00:06:50.720 | or moving into a nursing home, perhaps.

00:06:53.700 | But that also means that they have more or less exhausted

00:06:56.600 | all of their own financial resources first.

00:06:59.180 | So they have to be in a very specific position

00:07:01.900 | in order to even be eligible for that.

00:07:04.140 | And there are a lot of people,

00:07:05.620 | especially if your parents have any sort of pension plan,

00:07:08.820 | which our parents might be kind of the last cohort

00:07:11.420 | that had access to a pension,

00:07:13.540 | that pension might not really be enough for them

00:07:15.920 | to live on month to month,

00:07:17.360 | but might be just too much for them to qualify for Medicaid.

00:07:21.620 | So that's the other part of this that gets very tricky

00:07:24.300 | is they might have just enough to be ineligible

00:07:28.060 | for the thing that would help them.

00:07:29.200 | Therefore, you are also going to need to step in

00:07:31.740 | to provide some sort of support.

00:07:34.300 | And you're right to also think about the fact

00:07:36.700 | that a lot of what I'm talking about right now

00:07:38.900 | is the doom and gloom and scare tactics

00:07:40.580 | of like people are gonna get sick.

00:07:42.340 | People are going to physically be unable to do things.

00:07:44.820 | And that is true.

00:07:46.300 | But maybe your parents are in excellent health,

00:07:48.540 | both physically and mentally.

00:07:50.000 | You look at your family lineage

00:07:51.800 | and people have lived well into their 90s.

00:07:54.060 | And what if your parent retired at 65

00:07:57.100 | thinking that they were going to have enough?

00:07:59.580 | Maybe they, at the time, did.

00:08:01.620 | Perhaps they mismanaged money a little bit.

00:08:03.440 | Perhaps they hadn't diversified their investments enough

00:08:06.540 | and took too hard of a hit at a particular time,

00:08:08.820 | at a vulnerable time at the stock market.

00:08:10.940 | Whatever it is, things happen.

00:08:14.020 | Maybe one spouse predeceases the other

00:08:16.820 | and that person gets into a relationship

00:08:18.980 | with somebody who drains their bank account

00:08:20.760 | in a particular way.

00:08:21.900 | So many things can happen that can involve

00:08:25.660 | then adult children needing to step in

00:08:28.140 | and financially support.

00:08:29.960 | Often, some people, you might think

00:08:32.500 | it would be hundreds of dollars a month.

00:08:34.140 | For some people, it's going to be thousands of dollars.

00:08:36.460 | a month.

00:08:37.300 | And you need to know whether or not

00:08:39.420 | your budget could actually support that.

00:08:40.940 | And we need to be having these conversations very early.

00:08:44.660 | - We're already talking about a little bit of the what to do.

00:08:46.540 | So let's back up.

00:08:47.940 | And first, I want to talk about

00:08:49.660 | how to even have the conversation.

00:08:51.680 | But I'm curious, is there even data out there

00:08:53.740 | about how many people have had this conversation?

00:08:55.700 | How uncommon is it for people to have this conversation?

00:08:58.940 | - I don't have a solid data point.

00:09:01.100 | All I can say is anecdotally,

00:09:03.360 | I don't know very many people personally.

00:09:05.300 | I'd be curious if you know very many people personally

00:09:07.820 | who have had this conversation.

00:09:09.220 | I've had it with my parents and my in-laws.

00:09:12.940 | I don't know anyone else who has, quite frankly.

00:09:16.420 | - Well, hopefully everyone that's read the book has had it.

00:09:18.940 | My first reaction, funny enough,

00:09:20.380 | was I read that chapter title and I was like,

00:09:22.180 | should I have the conversation or should I do the episode?

00:09:24.660 | And then I was like, oh, once I do the episode,

00:09:26.780 | I could just send the episode and be like,

00:09:28.700 | hey, take a listen to this.

00:09:29.540 | Tell me what you think.

00:09:30.460 | I know you were saying that even if you have advice,

00:09:32.540 | even if you have a financial advisor,

00:09:34.780 | you might not be having this conversation.

00:09:36.380 | It's like such a rare thing for even the people

00:09:38.960 | that you pay to help you plan to talk about.

00:09:41.220 | - So that to me, I was doing research on this,

00:09:43.500 | actually just about six months ago.

00:09:45.820 | And I came across a survey that had done,

00:09:48.820 | MIT Age Lab had come out with this survey.

00:09:51.900 | And one, tying into all the doom and gloom

00:09:54.780 | that I was bringing up in the beginning,

00:09:56.300 | it's so important because according to this survey,

00:09:59.700 | 51.2% of folks who ended up providing care,

00:10:04.340 | they themselves did not financially prepare

00:10:07.020 | for the cost of caregiving.

00:10:08.380 | So more than half of people just do not prepare

00:10:12.260 | for the potential financial burden.

00:10:14.300 | I hate calling our parents burdens.

00:10:15.820 | That's not really what I'm saying,

00:10:17.100 | but this can be a financial burden.

00:10:19.340 | But the other big part is of those folks

00:10:23.020 | who did have financial advisors,

00:10:25.260 | about 41% of them never brought it up

00:10:28.440 | with the financial advisor.

00:10:29.780 | Never mentioned that they needed to provide care

00:10:31.960 | for the parents, didn't talk about the fact

00:10:34.320 | that needed to be part of their financial plan.

00:10:36.740 | So anyone who's listening to this,

00:10:37.940 | who is a financial advisor,

00:10:39.580 | my big push in that arena is,

00:10:41.860 | are you asking your clients,

00:10:43.380 | both your aging clients with adult children

00:10:45.740 | and your younger clients who might have aging parents,

00:10:49.180 | have you talked?

00:10:50.740 | Have you shared this information with each other?

00:10:53.140 | Encouraging them to try to open up a dialogue?

00:10:56.140 | Because especially for millennial and Gen X clients,

00:11:00.060 | Gen X is in the sandwich generation.

00:11:01.640 | They're already getting the squeeze

00:11:02.700 | of aging parents and raising children.

00:11:05.220 | But millennials, we're getting into our forties.

00:11:08.140 | We are rapidly heading to the point of aging parents

00:11:12.300 | and young children that we're trying to raise

00:11:14.220 | and feeling the squeeze from both sides.

00:11:15.760 | So if you are in the position

00:11:17.660 | that you already have a financial advisor,

00:11:19.100 | have you spoken about this potential with them?

00:11:22.140 | Is your financial plan set up

00:11:24.220 | to account for that possibility?

00:11:26.060 | - Just as you were saying this,

00:11:27.080 | I was just thinking to a handful of studies

00:11:30.140 | that show that people with lots of money live paycheck

00:11:31.860 | to paycheck and that people who drive nice cars,

00:11:34.540 | I've seen this as a financial planner in the past.

00:11:37.580 | The lifestyle you live is not always correlated

00:11:40.420 | to the money you have.

00:11:41.460 | And so one other point that makes me think

00:11:44.060 | this conversation is even more important

00:11:46.300 | is that just because your parents might be living

00:11:48.580 | like they have their whole financial lives figured out

00:11:51.060 | does not mean that they have their whole financial lives

00:11:53.340 | figured out.

00:11:54.220 | And as much as I often think of my peers

00:11:57.220 | as the ones who would be maybe spending above their means

00:12:00.620 | and kind of in our minds, we often think our parents,

00:12:03.300 | they have it all figured out, they raised us.

00:12:05.380 | I would imagine that if you looked

00:12:07.080 | into the financial situation of people approaching

00:12:10.420 | or living in retirement,

00:12:12.180 | there would probably be very similar themes

00:12:13.980 | to what you see in all other demographics

00:12:15.900 | across the country of people who are spending

00:12:18.100 | more than they should or more than they can

00:12:20.180 | and maybe not managing everything properly.

00:12:22.540 | - And also think about all the financial vulnerability

00:12:24.980 | points there for folks who are aging into retirement

00:12:27.980 | where perhaps your parent rated their own retirement account

00:12:31.980 | to send you to college, or perhaps you got married

00:12:36.220 | and your parents financially paid for your wedding

00:12:38.740 | or significantly contributed to it.

00:12:40.540 | And are you sure that was money

00:12:42.580 | that they had discretionary spending

00:12:45.020 | or that they had saved up for it?

00:12:46.880 | Was that maybe financed on credit cards?

00:12:49.140 | Like, do you actually know that just because your parents

00:12:51.900 | wrote you a check or paid for something on a credit card,

00:12:54.700 | that was something that they could afford to do?

00:12:56.620 | And there are all these moments,

00:12:58.100 | whether it's because of social pressure

00:12:59.660 | or just because our parents love us

00:13:01.580 | and want to do nice things for us

00:13:03.460 | that they might pick up the tab on something

00:13:06.260 | that is then to their detriment in the future.

00:13:08.900 | But my question becomes,

00:13:10.580 | if they're rating their retirement plan for you,

00:13:13.900 | again, are you then the retirement plan in the future?

00:13:17.380 | And you have a right to know that.

00:13:19.580 | - How do you have this question?

00:13:20.620 | It seems like if almost everyone doesn't know the answer,

00:13:24.040 | there's probably got to be at least a few reasons

00:13:25.820 | why our parents haven't just volunteered up

00:13:28.580 | this information one night at dinner.

00:13:29.860 | "Hey, let's go through our books."

00:13:31.660 | I guess, yeah, why are we having the conversation

00:13:33.900 | and how can we have the conversation?

00:13:35.780 | - I mean, the subtitle of the book says it all,

00:13:37.460 | "Navigate Awkward Financial Conversations."

00:13:39.620 | We don't want to have the conversation

00:13:41.300 | because it feels uncomfortable.

00:13:42.900 | And particularly for parents,

00:13:45.220 | especially for those who are listening

00:13:46.780 | who are parents to adult children,

00:13:48.500 | I fully acknowledge that this is an incredibly

00:13:51.420 | uncomfortable thing to talk to your adult child about,

00:13:54.120 | especially if maybe there have either been

00:13:56.200 | missteps of your own or because just things happened

00:13:59.640 | and life happened and your financial situation

00:14:02.360 | aging into retirement is not what you hoped

00:14:04.560 | and wanted it to be.

00:14:06.320 | And now you're having to figure out either,

00:14:09.360 | do I work for maybe a decade longer than I wanted to?

00:14:12.080 | Am I physically able to keep doing that?

00:14:13.920 | Or do I need to have a frank conversation with my child

00:14:17.840 | about the help that I might need at some point?

00:14:20.920 | That's an incredibly vulnerable thing

00:14:23.320 | for a parent to talk to a child about.

00:14:26.320 | And that's also why adult children,

00:14:28.880 | yes, we have a right to know some of this information,

00:14:31.880 | particularly if it's going to impact us,

00:14:33.800 | but our parents are adults at the end of the day,

00:14:36.520 | they can make their own decisions.

00:14:37.760 | You cannot force them to take your help

00:14:39.720 | and you can't force them to open up about this,

00:14:42.360 | which is why sometimes it takes a little bit

00:14:45.040 | of delicate dancing and footwork

00:14:46.800 | and context clue picking up that you need to do

00:14:49.520 | over potentially years, which all comes back

00:14:53.120 | to why I say start this conversation early

00:14:55.040 | and don't wait for the inciting incident to happen

00:14:58.020 | so that when the inciting incident does happen,

00:15:01.660 | it doesn't have to be as stressful.

00:15:03.640 | The fact that if you start it early, it can be slow.

00:15:06.880 | You can do this gently.

00:15:08.700 | You can bring it up multiple times in different ways.

00:15:12.300 | You can have multiple people deployed

00:15:14.180 | to have this conversation

00:15:16.120 | because it's incredibly important to us.

00:15:18.520 | Remember, parents do not have the same relationship

00:15:21.320 | with each of their children.

00:15:22.940 | So one of you might be the better point person for this talk

00:15:26.440 | or, and this might be crazy to folks, in-laws,

00:15:30.160 | because if you have a healthy relationship

00:15:33.440 | with a in-law dynamic, it is quite possible

00:15:37.640 | that your mother or father-in-law

00:15:39.440 | might feel more comfortable talking to you

00:15:41.320 | than to their own children.

00:15:42.960 | You're a valued member of the family.

00:15:44.480 | They love you, but they didn't raise you.

00:15:46.900 | And so the connection is a little bit different.

00:15:49.680 | They might be willing to be vulnerable,

00:15:51.300 | but maybe it doesn't feel quite as,

00:15:54.340 | whether it's embarrassing or nerve-wracking

00:15:56.520 | or what have you.

00:15:57.960 | I'm in a very privileged position with my own in-laws

00:16:00.340 | that I can have very frank conversations

00:16:02.160 | around a lot of this stuff that,

00:16:04.280 | honestly, they don't really have with my husband

00:16:06.160 | or their other two children.

00:16:07.280 | It mostly gets had with me.

00:16:08.920 | - Wow, let's get tactical.

00:16:10.040 | How do you actually broach these conversations?

00:16:12.400 | Let's say someone listening is like, you've sold me.

00:16:14.120 | I need to have this conversation.

00:16:15.880 | I am gonna call my parents tonight

00:16:17.400 | or I'm gonna see them next weekend or whenever.

00:16:19.920 | How do I start?

00:16:21.480 | - All right, we have a few different strategies.

00:16:23.760 | So buckle up, 'cause it depends on your relationship

00:16:25.860 | and how your parents operate.

00:16:27.800 | Step one, I always love the advice route.

00:16:30.560 | We all know parents love to give advice.

00:16:32.280 | It's like one of their number one favorite hobbies.

00:16:34.660 | So going from the angle of mom and dad,

00:16:38.680 | X thing is happening in my life.

00:16:40.320 | What would you do?

00:16:41.480 | Sort of strategy.

00:16:42.940 | So one that I use often is,

00:16:45.400 | this is a little bit for maybe the younger millennial

00:16:48.120 | or the Gen Z-er who is listening.

00:16:50.560 | Perhaps you're early on in your career.

00:16:52.080 | Get access to a retirement plan.

00:16:54.400 | Mom, dad, I started a new job.

00:16:55.920 | I have access to a 401k.

00:16:57.960 | Not totally sure how to handle it.

00:16:59.940 | What would you do?

00:17:01.260 | Very telling answers in something like,

00:17:03.280 | oh, I never had to worry about that.

00:17:04.800 | Oh, I have a pension.

00:17:06.200 | Oh, I don't have one of those.

00:17:08.360 | Oh, that was really overwhelming.

00:17:09.960 | Or, oh, here's exactly what I did.

00:17:12.520 | Here's my investment portfolio.

00:17:14.000 | You might be able to get really helpful information back.

00:17:16.740 | The advice asking, though, needs to be authentic to you,

00:17:20.080 | what your parents know about you, the dynamic.

00:17:22.800 | Obviously, if you're 35,

00:17:24.480 | you've been in the workforce for a long time,

00:17:26.220 | your parents know that you're very successful.

00:17:28.300 | Trying to go the 401k route might read as like,

00:17:31.080 | hmm, this is a weird question.

00:17:33.000 | They're clearly trying to get something out of me.

00:17:35.360 | So seeing about different phases

00:17:37.360 | of whether it is estate planning or caregiving.

00:17:40.720 | Bringing up something like,

00:17:42.600 | hey, Joe and I are thinking about having kids

00:17:45.640 | and we're realizing that we should probably have a will

00:17:49.280 | and we probably need to look at updating beneficiaries

00:17:51.840 | across our accounts.

00:17:53.360 | I was just wondering, when did you guys create a will?

00:17:57.020 | When was the last time you updated it?

00:17:58.640 | Have you updated your beneficiaries?

00:18:00.080 | There's lots of follow-up question opportunities here.

00:18:03.440 | But it could also be great advice.

00:18:05.680 | Your parents might have a guy that they recommend

00:18:07.840 | that you actually do need.

00:18:08.920 | And then it's a win for everybody.

00:18:10.160 | Now you know your parents have a will or an estate plan.

00:18:13.620 | So the advice strategy in a way that reads authentic to you

00:18:17.600 | and your relationship with your parents

00:18:19.440 | can be incredibly helpful.

00:18:21.640 | Even if it's not the answer that you want

00:18:24.360 | or not all of the information upfront,

00:18:26.920 | and it won't be, I'm gonna be honest with you,

00:18:28.780 | you're not gonna get all the information that you need

00:18:30.920 | from one advice-seeking question.

00:18:33.480 | But again, the context clues here

00:18:35.640 | can give you a lot of insight

00:18:37.120 | and be something to file away for later.

00:18:39.800 | The other thing on the advice front,

00:18:41.640 | maybe you're not the one

00:18:43.460 | that could go and ask the advice question,

00:18:45.600 | but a sibling could.

00:18:47.000 | And then you can also be having this conversation

00:18:49.840 | with your siblings if you have them at the same time.

00:18:53.600 | What do you think about mom and dad aging?

00:18:55.720 | Have you had conversations with them about that?

00:18:58.240 | I think we should start asking them some of these questions.

00:19:01.200 | I think it would make more sense for you to go ask

00:19:03.980 | X, Y, Z question based on a situation

00:19:06.520 | that sibling is having in their life.

00:19:09.160 | So great, somebody else can go start

00:19:11.000 | to try to get the information.

00:19:12.880 | So advice, I would say step one.

00:19:14.920 | - Our next partner has a product I literally use every day.

00:19:19.560 | I started taking AG-1 from Athletic Greens

00:19:22.080 | because I wanted an easy way

00:19:23.560 | to get my daily nutritional insurance

00:19:25.520 | and optimize my immune system.

00:19:27.440 | And it's been in my routine for almost a year

00:19:29.960 | because when you take one scoop of AG-1,

00:19:32.280 | you're absorbing 75 high quality vitamins, minerals,

00:19:35.440 | whole food source superfoods, probiotics, and adaptogens

00:19:38.760 | to help you start your day right.

00:19:40.440 | Every morning, I mix it up with some cold water,

00:19:42.920 | add a few ice cubes because it tastes so good cold,

00:19:46.080 | and head to my office feeling focused

00:19:48.140 | and energized for the day,

00:19:49.660 | which is a feeling I absolutely love.

00:19:52.180 | I also love that it has less than one gram of sugar

00:19:54.920 | and no GMOs, nasty chemicals, or artificial anything.

00:19:58.640 | To make giving it a try easy,

00:20:00.440 | Athletic Greens is gonna give you a free one year supply

00:20:03.480 | of immune supporting vitamin D

00:20:05.360 | and five free travel packs with your first purchase.

00:20:08.840 | All you have to do is visit allthehacks.com/athleticgreens.

00:20:13.720 | Again, that's allthehacks.com/athleticgreens

00:20:18.360 | to take ownership over your health

00:20:20.000 | and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance.

00:20:22.960 | When it comes to building wealth,

00:20:26.360 | taxes are such a big part of the strategy.

00:20:29.040 | And even if you've already filed,

00:20:30.720 | being proactive about this year

00:20:32.200 | to lower your future liability is so important.

00:20:34.880 | And now that I'm working with Gelt,

00:20:36.560 | I finally feel like I have a partner I can trust

00:20:38.720 | to handle everything for my business and personal taxes.

00:20:42.040 | And I'm excited to partner with them for this episode.

00:20:44.560 | Think of Gelt as the ultimate modern CPA.

00:20:47.160 | They not only offer an amazing tech platform

00:20:49.600 | that gives you personalized guidance

00:20:51.200 | to maximize deductions, tax credits, and savings,

00:20:54.040 | but also everything is backed by an in-house team

00:20:56.760 | of expert CPAs who can recommend

00:20:59.000 | the most effective tax strategies

00:21:00.920 | to minimize risk and grow your wealth.

00:21:03.040 | And best of all, you can have this transparent,

00:21:05.200 | open communication with your team

00:21:07.000 | in whatever way works best for you,

00:21:08.920 | whether that's on their platform, over email,

00:21:11.240 | in Slack, or scheduling a call.

00:21:13.440 | Finally, my favorite story is that

00:21:15.000 | when we first onboarded with Gelt,

00:21:16.800 | they reviewed our past returns

00:21:18.280 | and found a huge mistake our prior CPA had made.

00:21:21.120 | So they refiled and got us back all that money.

00:21:24.000 | So if you're ready for a more premium,

00:21:25.880 | proactive tax strategy to optimize and file your taxes,

00:21:29.480 | you have to check out Gelt.

00:21:31.360 | And as an All The Hacks listener,

00:21:32.800 | you can skip the wait list and get started today.

00:21:35.320 | Just head to allthehacks.com/Gelt, G-E-L-T.

00:21:39.640 | Again, that's allthehacks.com/G-E-L-T.

00:21:43.840 | Have you heard anyone use like an aunt or an uncle

00:21:47.080 | as a tactic here?

00:21:48.000 | 'Cause I feel like I know some people

00:21:49.280 | whose relationships with their aunts and uncles are so good,

00:21:52.000 | and then they have like a sibling relationship

00:21:54.480 | with your parents.

00:21:55.320 | Is that a strategy?

00:21:57.120 | - Oh, bringing in third-party players can be very effective.

00:22:00.280 | So whether that's aunt and uncle,

00:22:02.640 | just make sure that you understand the family food chain

00:22:05.560 | in terms of gossip.

00:22:06.760 | That's the only thing you have to be really careful about.

00:22:09.080 | Like if you try to bring somebody else in

00:22:10.560 | who's in the family, how is that gonna get back?

00:22:13.800 | Is your question gonna get maybe misinterpreted or shared?

00:22:17.920 | Or you know how your family operates,

00:22:19.840 | so just really think it through.

00:22:21.480 | But maybe it's not an aunt and uncle,

00:22:22.920 | maybe it is a religious figure or a community leader

00:22:25.800 | or somebody else that your parents are really comfortable

00:22:27.840 | with and close to that you could also talk to.

00:22:31.480 | That's also really helpful if you're worried

00:22:33.360 | about a medical-related incident with your parents.

00:22:36.560 | If you notice that maybe your parents

00:22:38.840 | seem to be forgetting things a lot lately,

00:22:41.200 | you maybe want somebody to get tested,

00:22:44.080 | maybe Alzheimer's runs in your family or dementia does,

00:22:46.600 | and you're feeling like red flags

00:22:48.040 | seem to be popping up here,

00:22:49.560 | and they're not listening to you, the child,

00:22:51.600 | that's also when another person

00:22:53.520 | might be the right person to step in,

00:22:56.080 | particularly 'cause you can't always go to their doctor.

00:22:58.960 | They have a confidentiality

00:23:00.480 | that they can't come talk to you about.

00:23:02.360 | - In your book, you have the actual

00:23:04.000 | word-for-word scripts here.

00:23:05.600 | We're not gonna go and read them all.

00:23:07.360 | You sent me some in advance, and I'm like,

00:23:08.560 | "Oh, can we make a PDF and send it to people?"

00:23:10.600 | And if we do, we'll put it in the show notes.

00:23:12.360 | But you have a whole book where it's like,

00:23:13.440 | "Here's how to have this conversation."

00:23:15.480 | - Yes, the book has all the scripts, word-for-word,

00:23:18.680 | many different strategies depending on the situation.

00:23:21.280 | So speaking of advice, we started with that,

00:23:23.360 | which is one of my personal favorites.

00:23:25.400 | If you're like, "We're past that point.

00:23:26.960 | "My parents know me too well.

00:23:28.360 | "I can't come to them for advice."

00:23:30.080 | We are very clear on that.

00:23:31.840 | It's not gonna work.

00:23:32.680 | Maybe you don't have siblings,

00:23:33.800 | or maybe your siblings also totally have it together.

00:23:36.000 | They can't go.

00:23:37.120 | Just asking open-ended questions can be huge.

00:23:39.900 | So bringing up situations that have happened

00:23:42.360 | either to your friends, if it's not a friend,

00:23:45.760 | I don't know, TV shows, pop culture.

00:23:47.960 | There are things that you can pull to.

00:23:50.200 | Usually every year, a celebrity dies without a will,

00:23:52.360 | and their estate is a mess.

00:23:53.880 | So even not asking a direct question of your parents,

00:23:56.600 | but saying, "So-and-so died, and it turns out

00:23:59.400 | "they did not have a will and an estate plan,

00:24:01.100 | "and the family is fighting like crazy."

00:24:03.280 | Can you imagine?

00:24:04.420 | What would you do?

00:24:05.260 | What would you think about that?

00:24:06.920 | Like just open-ended, see what they say.

00:24:10.220 | Also bringing up things like,

00:24:12.260 | "Oh, my friend's dad recently passed away.

00:24:14.840 | "He had been remarried.

00:24:16.240 | "He had kids from both marriage.

00:24:17.680 | "He had not updated a will

00:24:19.080 | "or had any sort of an estate plan,

00:24:20.740 | "and it is just a nightmare."

00:24:22.720 | And our family situation, honestly, is a little similar.

00:24:25.760 | So it was making me wonder, do you have a will?

00:24:29.280 | Or it could be our family situation is different,

00:24:31.400 | but it still really just got me thinking,

00:24:33.520 | do you have a will?

00:24:35.040 | And again, I'm talking estate planning,

00:24:36.920 | but it could also be caregiving, plugging that in.

00:24:40.320 | - One thing I'm hearing is that

00:24:42.560 | it's probably not the best tactic to jump straight to,

00:24:46.240 | when are you gonna run out of money?

00:24:47.920 | How am I gonna support you?

00:24:49.560 | It sounds like we're trying to pick up clues first.

00:24:52.040 | Is that intentional?

00:24:53.320 | - Yeah, listen, you can be direct.

00:24:55.320 | I do not have a problem with you being direct.

00:24:57.600 | However, again, know your parents, know your relationship.

00:25:01.960 | How are they gonna react to that?

00:25:03.800 | I mean, I don't know about you,

00:25:04.920 | but if somebody came up to me, spouse, sibling, parent,

00:25:09.120 | child, and was like,

00:25:10.260 | "Hey, do you think you're gonna outlive your money?"

00:25:12.480 | I don't know that I would react great

00:25:14.960 | to that type of a question.

00:25:17.320 | So bringing it up in a little bit of a more nuanced way

00:25:20.480 | or hearkening to things that you have seen happen

00:25:23.240 | in your family dynamic,

00:25:24.840 | particularly if you saw your parents

00:25:27.120 | care for your aging grandparents,

00:25:29.400 | how is that not just a perfect open door

00:25:31.760 | to be able to say,

00:25:33.560 | "I saw a lot of what you had to do

00:25:35.520 | to take care of grandma at the end of her life.

00:25:38.560 | And I also know that dementia runs in our family

00:25:42.040 | and that got really stressful.

00:25:44.160 | And that's something that has started

00:25:46.000 | to give me a little bit of anxiety as both of us are aging."

00:25:49.480 | Like, "You don't have to throw them under the bus.

00:25:50.880 | You're getting older too.

00:25:51.920 | Let's be in this together."

00:25:54.120 | And then following it up with something like,

00:25:56.880 | "Have you started creating the proper paperwork

00:26:00.400 | that we would need if something were to ever happen

00:26:02.680 | just so I don't have to be guessing

00:26:04.720 | and you immediately can get cared for?"

00:26:07.000 | A lot of people,

00:26:08.720 | even if they themselves have been

00:26:10.360 | through the negative experience,

00:26:11.920 | are going to assume that they'll be okay,

00:26:15.400 | which is why so often people get into a position

00:26:20.040 | where the health scare happens,

00:26:21.400 | where the inciting incident happens,

00:26:23.040 | and they're not prepared for it,

00:26:24.240 | even if they saw their parents went through it,

00:26:26.000 | even if their siblings went through it,

00:26:27.800 | because still in their mind,

00:26:29.200 | "Well, that's not gonna happen to me."

00:26:30.920 | And that puts all of us at a massive disadvantage.

00:26:33.640 | - On the estate planning front,

00:26:34.760 | I think the open door that worked really well

00:26:37.840 | in both of our families

00:26:38.720 | was that we had to go do this, right?

00:26:40.160 | We have two small children.

00:26:41.400 | So we went through the estate planning process.

00:26:43.360 | We set up our will, our trust, our healthcare directives.

00:26:45.640 | And then I just was like, "Oh, let's talk about this.

00:26:47.600 | Hey, we're going through this."

00:26:49.120 | You have to make these decisions

00:26:50.400 | for anyone who hasn't done it.

00:26:51.520 | It's like, how much support do you want?

00:26:55.040 | Do you wanna be on life support?

00:26:56.240 | Do you not?

00:26:57.080 | Who makes the decisions for you?

00:26:58.280 | Who doesn't?

00:26:59.120 | Even things like who's gonna manage your money

00:27:01.440 | if you're not there?

00:27:02.280 | And so we kind of just shared,

00:27:03.680 | "Hey, this is what we're thinking about.

00:27:06.320 | This is how we decided.

00:27:07.600 | This is what we want."

00:27:08.800 | And kind of just remind everyone that it's important.

00:27:11.440 | And depending on your parents' relationship,

00:27:13.280 | sometimes they're like,

00:27:14.120 | "Well, if our kids are doing this,

00:27:15.120 | we can't let our kids be more prepared than we are.

00:27:18.280 | So we have to do this too."

00:27:19.960 | But in my situation,

00:27:21.520 | it didn't lead to a natural conversation about money.

00:27:26.520 | It did lead to a,

00:27:27.840 | we're gonna make sure our will and our trust

00:27:30.000 | and our estate plan

00:27:30.840 | and our healthcare directors are all set up.

00:27:33.080 | I still don't have a great answer

00:27:35.400 | on whether my parents will outlive their finances.

00:27:38.680 | How do you keep this going?

00:27:39.920 | How do you continue that conversation?

00:27:42.080 | - One of the things that I would ask,

00:27:44.680 | again, with the open-ended question,

00:27:46.440 | is how do you see retirement looking for you?

00:27:50.320 | And just see what they think.

00:27:53.360 | If you could dream your ideal day in retirement,

00:27:55.400 | what does that look like?

00:27:57.240 | And the thing that's also very important

00:27:59.520 | is to bring up where they live,

00:28:01.520 | which I know sounds a bit sensitive,

00:28:03.280 | but I live in New York City.

00:28:05.200 | If my parents had been born and raised in New York City

00:28:08.440 | and didn't wanna move,

00:28:10.400 | but retired with a lump sum that maybe meant

00:28:14.240 | New York was not gonna be the option for them

00:28:16.760 | for the next 20, 30 years,

00:28:19.080 | then that's a hard conversation you have to bring up about,

00:28:21.800 | I love you and I wanna make sure

00:28:22.960 | that you have the best possible life.

00:28:25.000 | And I know that you love where you're from,

00:28:27.440 | but we do have to face facts

00:28:29.240 | that are you gonna be able to sustain a high quality of life

00:28:32.600 | in this high cost of living area?

00:28:35.120 | Or if you don't live there anymore

00:28:37.280 | in the high cost of living area your parents live in,

00:28:39.200 | we'd love if you came down and lived near us.

00:28:41.280 | If that's true, don't offer it if it's not true.

00:28:43.800 | That's the other big part of this.

00:28:45.840 | Don't offer things that you don't wanna have happen.

00:28:48.400 | But it is really critical

00:28:51.200 | that you give your parents the space

00:28:52.840 | to talk about what they want.

00:28:54.440 | That this is not you coming in,

00:28:56.560 | taking charge, trying to parent them,

00:28:58.960 | trying to sort of ram them into whatever version of life

00:29:02.800 | that you want them to live based on

00:29:04.400 | what you think they can do

00:29:05.760 | and what you could maybe do for them.

00:29:07.480 | This really needs to be a dynamic conversation

00:29:10.240 | that their opinion matters

00:29:11.480 | 'cause it is their life at the end of the day.

00:29:14.440 | So it is critical that they are part of the conversation.

00:29:19.440 | And as long as they are able to care for themselves,

00:29:22.360 | that's where this conversation

00:29:23.640 | can get a little bit more complicated is if they can.

00:29:26.360 | But if they can,

00:29:28.080 | this needs to be about them and their wishes

00:29:30.280 | and not just you and what's easiest for you.

00:29:33.080 | - And it's funny 'cause I'm playing through

00:29:34.280 | these conversations in my head while we're talking

00:29:36.200 | and where they go and how they go.

00:29:38.120 | And I was thinking along the lines of,

00:29:39.680 | will someone outlive their savings?

00:29:42.080 | And I went back to, in my mind,

00:29:44.680 | to making financial plans for a living,

00:29:46.760 | which I've done in my past.

00:29:48.360 | And I realized when you're making a financial plan

00:29:51.440 | for a millennial client,

00:29:53.520 | there's so much time

00:29:55.040 | that you don't need to get that specific

00:29:57.200 | and they're earning money.

00:29:58.400 | So it's really about this saving for the future.

00:30:01.040 | I imagine, and I don't know,

00:30:02.600 | but making a financial plan for someone in retirement

00:30:06.120 | needs a bit more precision, right?

00:30:08.040 | There's a little bit more exact science

00:30:10.400 | because the money is being spent

00:30:12.440 | and the income is,

00:30:13.600 | maybe it's there in the form of social security

00:30:15.600 | and maybe it's there in the form of dividends and interest,

00:30:18.600 | but it's probably not there in the form

00:30:20.040 | of like a W-2 paycheck.

00:30:21.800 | It's no longer about save a lot.

00:30:23.960 | There's a lot of variability

00:30:25.000 | in how the market will grow this pot.

00:30:26.800 | It's more about, is there enough?

00:30:28.320 | Am I doing the right things?

00:30:29.480 | Is it in something that matches the risk

00:30:32.240 | I'm willing to take given the amount of years

00:30:34.560 | I'm trying to make this money last?

00:30:36.920 | I don't even know if I,

00:30:39.000 | without a bunch of extra research,

00:30:41.160 | would feel good at answering that question.

00:30:43.520 | If my parents even said,

00:30:44.600 | "Here is exactly how much money we have."

00:30:47.080 | I don't even think I could answer that question today.

00:30:49.240 | Is it enough?

00:30:50.400 | So when you see these conversations come up,

00:30:53.160 | obviously, if the number is $100 million,

00:30:55.360 | it's probably enough.

00:30:56.200 | If the number is zero, it's probably not enough.

00:30:58.000 | And then in between, there's a lot of open questions,

00:31:00.080 | but is this something that is probably worth

00:31:04.760 | bringing in a financial planner to make a financial plan

00:31:07.880 | who maybe specializes in retirement?

00:31:09.760 | Because even as a financially savvy millennial,

00:31:12.840 | I don't think I could answer that question

00:31:14.680 | in the right way without a lot of homework.

00:31:16.600 | - My gosh, yes, please.

00:31:17.800 | Do not take on the full responsibility

00:31:19.880 | for creating your parents' retirement plan

00:31:22.760 | unless you are a financial planner

00:31:26.000 | who has in-depth experience

00:31:27.960 | with working with this particular clientele.

00:31:30.600 | And I say that because first of all,

00:31:33.560 | you don't want the liability on your conscience

00:31:35.640 | of like, "Oh no, I screwed something up.

00:31:37.240 | "And now my parents do have to live off of me

00:31:39.500 | "and/or with me because I messed up."

00:31:43.120 | No shot at your ability to figure out

00:31:45.640 | your parents' retirement plan.

00:31:47.480 | But getting into the previous question

00:31:49.760 | being about how we ask and me saying open-ended questions,

00:31:53.160 | I do think we can reach a point in this, again,

00:31:56.200 | progressive conversation where you do say,

00:31:59.420 | "What does your retirement look like?

00:32:00.920 | "And if you don't wanna share a number with me,

00:32:02.920 | "you don't have to,

00:32:04.400 | "but I am curious how it's distributed to you."

00:32:08.360 | That is actually pertinent information

00:32:10.280 | potentially for you to have.

00:32:11.480 | Because for some folks,

00:32:12.720 | your parents might get a lump sum distribution

00:32:15.320 | at some point.

00:32:16.680 | And that to me is very scary.

00:32:19.680 | Because if your parents get a lump sum

00:32:21.940 | and are not entirely sure how to handle it

00:32:23.920 | and then don't hire somebody who can appropriately

00:32:27.080 | figure out how to either have it invested

00:32:29.980 | or in some sort of fixed income asset or what have you

00:32:33.500 | that's best for your parents,

00:32:35.020 | maybe they go buy a house that they shouldn't be buying.

00:32:37.360 | Maybe they use it to take a big trip for the family

00:32:40.480 | that maybe they shouldn't have been doing or what have you.

00:32:43.280 | 'Cause to them, it's all of a sudden

00:32:44.640 | getting this huge lump sum of money,

00:32:46.480 | not necessarily thinking about the fact

00:32:48.800 | that this amount might need to last me

00:32:50.600 | for the next two decades of my life.

00:32:53.080 | So asking about how the money is distributed

00:32:55.440 | instead of how much money is there,

00:32:58.360 | that could actually be very helpful information

00:33:00.220 | for you to find out and give you a lot of insight.

00:33:02.800 | And then yes,

00:33:04.120 | please hire a financial planner for your parents

00:33:06.360 | or encourage them to hire one depending on the dynamic,

00:33:09.680 | depending on if they can afford one.

00:33:11.640 | One resource that I would recommend,

00:33:13.580 | I love XYPN, there's a bunch of different ones,

00:33:16.060 | but let's be honest,

00:33:16.980 | they're more for the millennial Gen X cohort.

00:33:20.000 | If you wanna find somebody

00:33:21.240 | who maybe has a few more gray hairs that match your parents

00:33:24.380 | that they would feel more comfortable with,

00:33:26.160 | the CFP board has letsmakeaplan.org

00:33:29.320 | that has a filter on there

00:33:30.940 | that you can search for estate planning,

00:33:32.420 | you can search for retirement planning,

00:33:33.960 | whatever it is your parents need,

00:33:35.680 | and you can find somebody that's a CFP vetted, all of that.

00:33:39.680 | Maybe you go to some of the meetings with them

00:33:41.680 | if they feel uncomfortable with vetting someone themselves

00:33:44.440 | or if you might feel more comfortable

00:33:46.400 | and they're willing to let you in on that process,

00:33:49.120 | that could also be really helpful.

00:33:51.120 | - And for people who aren't familiar,

00:33:52.600 | CFP is a certified financial planner.

00:33:54.600 | One of the requirements is that they act as a fiduciary,

00:33:57.360 | which means that they are legally bound to act

00:33:59.720 | in the best interest of their clients,

00:34:01.460 | which we've talked about this in the past,

00:34:03.320 | but maybe not for a handful of months.

00:34:05.820 | Many financial advisors, the majority of them,

00:34:08.480 | there's a great John Oliver segment about this,

00:34:11.160 | are not fiduciaries.

00:34:12.320 | They do not have to act in someone's best interest.

00:34:15.440 | They generally have to do something suitable.

00:34:17.520 | So if you say, I wanna invest in the stock market,

00:34:19.820 | they can't just take your money and do something else,

00:34:22.240 | but they could put you in a stock market fund

00:34:24.360 | that has a 2% fee to them.

00:34:26.280 | They aren't required to weigh the cost of the fees

00:34:28.920 | and the cost of the services.

00:34:30.520 | So that's one thing to keep in mind.

00:34:31.800 | I think anytime someone's seeking financial advice,

00:34:34.100 | I am a big fan of fiduciary-bound financial advice

00:34:36.920 | and certified financial planners offer that.

00:34:39.400 | The other big thing is that so often we conflate this,

00:34:43.360 | I have a financial advisor, they're managing my money.

00:34:46.120 | One of the things that many financial planners do

00:34:49.360 | is prepare financial plans.

00:34:51.520 | And that can be a one-time service

00:34:54.320 | that does not require managing someone's finances

00:34:57.420 | on an ongoing basis.

00:34:58.740 | I know that many of our parents have a financial advisor

00:35:01.920 | managing their money, presenting it not as,

00:35:04.160 | you should talk to another person,

00:35:05.660 | but maybe you should get a financial plan,

00:35:08.380 | which might be a service that your financial advisor

00:35:10.440 | doesn't provide.

00:35:11.440 | Let's get a fiduciary to come in and make a one-time plan.

00:35:14.600 | And then the other thing that just came to mind

00:35:16.000 | as we were talking is,

00:35:17.680 | if you look at the expected return

00:35:19.240 | of a lot of investment portfolios,

00:35:21.040 | when you're young,

00:35:21.880 | they're really heavily weighted with the stock market,

00:35:23.920 | which has a higher expected return.

00:35:26.160 | As you get older, you reduce the risk of that portfolio,

00:35:29.500 | which inherently reduces the expected return.

00:35:32.200 | So that if your parents have had a financial advisor

00:35:34.540 | for many years, paying them 1%,

00:35:37.360 | with an expectation of earning seven,

00:35:39.640 | one seventh of their portfolio is going to fees.

00:35:42.280 | But if now as they're getting older and older,

00:35:44.240 | that's coming down to maybe they're

00:35:45.720 | in such a low risk portfolio that they're expecting

00:35:48.400 | three or 4%, well now 25 to 30% of their portfolio

00:35:52.120 | could be going to fees.

00:35:53.040 | So I think as you reduce the risk of your portfolio,

00:35:57.040 | fees can come into play as an important factor.

00:35:59.800 | You have to be pretty far along in the conversation

00:36:02.000 | with your parents to be talking about

00:36:03.280 | their financial advisor's fees.

00:36:04.760 | - But to tag in on this too,

00:36:07.160 | the other thing that if your parents,

00:36:09.040 | for whatever reason, would like to handle it themselves,

00:36:12.000 | don't necessarily want you involved with the finding

00:36:14.480 | or the meeting or what have you.

00:36:16.480 | In addition to all of that, I would also bring up to them,

00:36:20.360 | how does this person get paid?

00:36:22.760 | And obviously fees, assets under management could be one,

00:36:26.040 | but asking, does this person get a commission?

00:36:29.400 | Which is also how, but you can suss out

00:36:31.480 | the fiduciary versus suitability standard

00:36:33.920 | depending on the situation.

00:36:35.880 | Are they fee based?

00:36:36.720 | Are they fee only?

00:36:37.960 | This can also give you a lot of insight.

00:36:40.080 | Not making a statement one way or the other,

00:36:43.380 | but just saying fee only tends to be the cleanest,

00:36:45.800 | easiest relationship dynamic as well.

00:36:48.120 | So making sure that your parents

00:36:51.040 | have all the information on how to vet somebody,

00:36:53.360 | share the John Oliver clip with them.

00:36:55.040 | Share the things that you're finding.

00:36:56.500 | Share the articles that you're reading.

00:36:58.400 | That's the other part of this,

00:36:59.640 | is that maybe they're not hearing it from you,

00:37:02.600 | but they will hear it from someone else

00:37:04.400 | and you'll just find the thing

00:37:05.520 | that will connect for them at some point.

00:37:07.800 | - So we've walked through this process.

00:37:09.480 | Here's why it's important.

00:37:10.680 | Here's how to start the conversation.

00:37:12.160 | Here's some things to think about.

00:37:13.800 | Let's say you've gotten your parents through that

00:37:15.800 | and it's not looking great.

00:37:17.680 | Are there things that you would recommend?

00:37:20.440 | I was thinking off the top of my head.

00:37:21.460 | It's like, okay, maybe you could travel less.

00:37:22.940 | Do you start helping them budget?

00:37:24.480 | What do you kind of recommend if you are in that state

00:37:26.640 | where you're like, I'm probably gonna have to come in

00:37:28.560 | and help at some point.

00:37:30.200 | Do you just accept that's gonna happen and save for it?

00:37:33.240 | Or do you try to course correct

00:37:35.120 | to potentially make their savings last longer?

00:37:38.080 | - I mean, you might've heard me deep sigh

00:37:39.300 | on the word budget on Mike,

00:37:40.680 | because I mean, yeah, that's a great option.

00:37:43.320 | If your parents will accept that level of help

00:37:45.360 | for you to come in and try to help overhaul

00:37:48.160 | their month-to-month financial plan and spending

00:37:50.520 | and maybe getting them on a debt repayment strategy,

00:37:53.200 | depending on what the overall situation is, wonderful.

00:37:57.400 | I know a lot of parents that are gonna be really resistant

00:38:00.320 | to letting their adult child do that.

00:38:02.680 | And it's one thing you can offer.

00:38:04.440 | Or again, if they're not taking the help from you,

00:38:07.880 | sharing the podcast, sharing the books,

00:38:09.880 | sharing the YouTube videos,

00:38:11.620 | whatever it is that you think might personally connect

00:38:14.240 | with them and might make them feel encouraged

00:38:16.800 | to be able to take the control.

00:38:18.960 | But it is a conversation that needs to be had

00:38:21.920 | that if they've shifted from earning income

00:38:23.880 | to now having to live off of their assets,

00:38:25.900 | their lifestyle probably needs to pivot a little bit.

00:38:29.080 | And what does that look like?

00:38:30.560 | And how do they feel about that?

00:38:31.960 | And is it little things day-to-day

00:38:34.840 | or is it a really big thing?

00:38:36.360 | Like the house needs to get downsized

00:38:38.160 | because that's a huge expense.

00:38:39.680 | And maybe all of a sudden

00:38:40.600 | we don't need to be paying for that much house.

00:38:43.080 | There might be pushback of like,

00:38:44.240 | oh, but grandkids come over

00:38:45.720 | and you come to visit or whatever.

00:38:47.480 | And you can be like, you need to take the us out of it

00:38:50.320 | and we need to be doing what's best for you.

00:38:53.320 | Again, if they're completely resistant

00:38:55.040 | to you getting that level of involved,

00:38:57.200 | and yeah, you can probably take back control to a degree

00:39:01.520 | in the sense of talking to your siblings, if you have them,

00:39:04.980 | about what feels fair and equitable amongst you

00:39:08.100 | about how to handle this.

00:39:09.840 | Is somebody gonna be financially contributing

00:39:12.060 | a little bit more,

00:39:12.900 | but the other person is perhaps more boots on the ground

00:39:15.220 | to be able to handle day-to-day stuff with mom and dad

00:39:17.480 | when they're gonna need help?

00:39:19.120 | Is it that you're setting aside an emergency savings fund

00:39:22.520 | that years in advance of a problem,

00:39:24.360 | all of you start contributing to

00:39:25.840 | so that there has been money set aside

00:39:28.140 | in order to be able to support your parents.

00:39:30.280 | Is it that you just put into your financial plan

00:39:33.520 | and earmark an amount of money that is being set aside

00:39:36.200 | to care for your parents or to, at some point,

00:39:38.400 | buy a home that you can move them into with you

00:39:40.880 | if you need to?

00:39:42.380 | There are so many different options

00:39:44.440 | and also cultural expectations play a huge factor

00:39:48.600 | in this conversation.

00:39:50.200 | For some people listening to this, this far in,

00:39:52.240 | they're like, I don't know why we're talking about this way.

00:39:54.840 | My parents obviously know I'm gonna take care of them.

00:39:57.280 | That's how we do things.

00:39:58.880 | And for some people, that's true.

00:40:00.720 | And for others, it's not.

00:40:02.780 | Also, who did you marry and what do their parents expect?

00:40:05.380 | Have to be another fun part of this conversation as well.

00:40:08.800 | - You mentioned send them different things,

00:40:10.240 | whether it's this podcast or a YouTube episode.

00:40:12.300 | So let's pretend you sent them this episode.

00:40:14.320 | I'm now speaking to the parents of the average listener

00:40:16.880 | or the listener who is a parent with adult children.

00:40:20.400 | What advice would you give them

00:40:22.360 | to how they can make this situation better

00:40:24.240 | for their children and their family?

00:40:26.000 | - You might be the parent who's like,

00:40:27.520 | I wish I could get my adult child

00:40:29.200 | to engage in this conversation.

00:40:31.080 | They will not talk to me about these things

00:40:32.840 | 'cause they don't like to think about

00:40:34.200 | me being in a situation that's tough

00:40:35.940 | or to think about me dying or what have you.

00:40:38.400 | But first of all,

00:40:39.560 | I'm so glad you'll initiate this conversation.

00:40:41.480 | That's wonderful.

00:40:42.720 | And if you're listening and you're like,

00:40:43.720 | heck no, I'm not having this conversation with my child,

00:40:47.080 | my first question is why?

00:40:48.820 | What is the knee-jerk reaction that you're having

00:40:51.240 | that's making you not want to engage in this conversation?

00:40:55.100 | Is it the sense of vulnerability that it might take

00:40:57.800 | to be able to talk to your adult child about this?

00:41:00.720 | Is it maybe a sense of embarrassment

00:41:03.240 | about what the situation is?

00:41:04.680 | Or is it that you feel like there's too much money

00:41:07.520 | and you're not entirely sure you want your child

00:41:09.840 | to know that at some point

00:41:11.600 | they might inherit X amount of money?

00:41:14.680 | There's myriad reasons why parents

00:41:16.380 | might not want to have this conversation,

00:41:18.680 | but to at least lay out the information

00:41:21.120 | about this is a plan I have,

00:41:24.440 | this is what it looks like.

00:41:25.560 | Also, by the way, we do have a will,

00:41:27.400 | we do have an estate plan,

00:41:28.680 | we do have advanced healthcare directives.

00:41:30.460 | Here's where all of that stuff is stored.

00:41:32.360 | Here's the executor of my will,

00:41:34.040 | here's the person that's my power of attorney.

00:41:37.080 | Pertinent information for adult children to know,

00:41:39.720 | because to me, caregiving/especially estate planning,

00:41:44.720 | having that planned, taking care of that,

00:41:48.340 | and letting people know the actual information,

00:41:51.440 | that is such a great act of love.

00:41:53.560 | It is one of the kindest things you can do for your family,

00:41:57.080 | because it is incredibly important

00:42:00.340 | that in a time of intense stress and grief,

00:42:03.420 | people are also not scrambling

00:42:05.240 | to try to figure out what you would have wanted,

00:42:08.720 | or scrambling to figure out how to pay the bills,

00:42:11.800 | or whatever else it is,

00:42:13.860 | and just making sure that information is handled,

00:42:17.320 | and it's not just you and your spouse,

00:42:18.920 | 'cause what happens is something happens

00:42:20.240 | to both of you at the same time.

00:42:21.800 | They're like, your adult children

00:42:22.840 | are also looped in on this information.

00:42:25.920 | So bringing up, we have this document, they're prepared,

00:42:29.680 | I wanna make sure that you're prepared

00:42:31.280 | if something ever happens to me.

00:42:33.000 | Here is where all of this is kept,

00:42:34.520 | or here's the guy that you need to call

00:42:36.880 | in case something does happen,

00:42:38.320 | who has all of the information, and don't worry about it.

00:42:41.760 | It's a beautiful gift that you can give somebody.

00:42:45.520 | And if there is some form of inheritance,

00:42:48.040 | and you feel uncomfortable

00:42:49.560 | talking to your adult child about it,

00:42:51.520 | I think that also could be really telling

00:42:53.660 | about everybody's relationship with money at this phase,

00:42:56.880 | and what conversations maybe should also be happening

00:43:00.000 | in order to foster better, more positive relationships

00:43:03.240 | with money, and potentially with each other,

00:43:05.520 | depending on family dynamics.

00:43:07.080 | - One thing that you just said that made me think about is,

00:43:09.540 | if you're uncomfortable talking about this

00:43:11.100 | with your children because there's too much money,

00:43:13.240 | and you're not ready to tell them about that,

00:43:15.420 | at a minimum, you could say, hey,

00:43:16.720 | I just wanna let you know we've done a financial plan,

00:43:18.840 | and we're very confident that we have enough money saved

00:43:21.640 | that we're gonna be able to cover our costs,

00:43:23.280 | we've thought through it.

00:43:24.640 | You don't necessarily need to let them into the calculations,

00:43:28.080 | but at least letting them know where it is

00:43:29.780 | so they're not worried could be a thing.

00:43:31.640 | So that was just one thing.

00:43:33.020 | Also, if you are having interesting thoughts

00:43:35.720 | about that conversation,

00:43:36.840 | I did an episode with Bill Perkins.

00:43:38.520 | He wrote a book called "Die With Zero",

00:43:40.000 | and it changed my perspective on inheritance.

00:43:42.240 | Not that I'm even at a point where my children

00:43:44.320 | are old enough to even spend money,

00:43:46.720 | but he kind of had this idea where he said,

00:43:48.880 | my goal is to die with zero,

00:43:50.200 | and a lot of the criticism he had

00:43:52.400 | was that if you die with zero,

00:43:53.640 | you don't leave anything to any future generations.

00:43:55.720 | And his answer was, no,

00:43:57.880 | but if I'm gonna leave money to my future generations,

00:44:00.020 | I wanna do it while I'm alive.

00:44:01.340 | I wanna see what it can bring to their lives,

00:44:03.560 | what things they can do with it,

00:44:05.040 | the education it might provide, et cetera.

00:44:06.880 | So if you're struggling with how to think about that,

00:44:09.240 | there's a couple interesting lessons from that episode

00:44:11.720 | that hopefully one day I get to use.

00:44:14.320 | - I would also bring up,

00:44:16.500 | in addition to we're set for X, Y, Z reasons,

00:44:20.600 | bringing up any sort of proper planning you've done,

00:44:23.640 | such as we have life insurance policies,

00:44:25.960 | here's where they are,

00:44:26.900 | here's how to make sure the bills keep getting paid

00:44:28.680 | in case something happens to me

00:44:29.940 | and I end up in the hospital and it's not on auto pay,

00:44:33.360 | and then my spouse is cared for,

00:44:35.400 | or you guys need to know

00:44:36.820 | that there's this life insurance policy,

00:44:38.200 | or we bought a long-term care insurance policy.

00:44:41.560 | Again, also going back to the way that adult children

00:44:45.760 | who perhaps have parents

00:44:46.880 | who are not in a financially stable situation,

00:44:49.720 | depending on the age of your parents

00:44:51.760 | and longevity prospects,

00:44:54.720 | looking into a long-term care insurance policy

00:44:57.120 | if they're not quite what they used to be.

00:44:59.840 | So looking in to see whether it makes sense financially,

00:45:03.560 | whether you'd rather just be putting that money

00:45:05.240 | into an investment yourself,

00:45:06.820 | whether a hybrid life insurance policy

00:45:09.120 | and long-term care insurance policy works for you.

00:45:11.520 | Again, this is a great opportunity

00:45:13.340 | to talk to a professional who has all the knowledge

00:45:15.960 | and all of the information

00:45:17.120 | and can look at the specifics

00:45:18.280 | of your and your parents' situation.

00:45:20.680 | But just knowing too that there are strategies

00:45:23.520 | beyond how can I just save and scrimp my way

00:45:25.920 | to making this successful for my parents and vice versa.

00:45:29.060 | - Do you ever wanna learn how to do something,

00:45:32.460 | but wanna make sure you're learning from the best?

00:45:34.720 | Like when I wanted to level up my barbecue game?

00:45:36.960 | Well, for that, I took Aaron Franklin's

00:45:38.800 | Texas-style barbecue class on MasterClass,

00:45:41.200 | which was amazing.

00:45:42.400 | I've learned so much from the classes

00:45:43.940 | I've taken on MasterClass,

00:45:45.160 | and I'm excited to partner with them for this episode.

00:45:47.800 | With MasterClass, you can learn from the world's best minds

00:45:50.780 | anytime, anywhere, and at your own pace.

00:45:53.920 | You can learn songwriting from John Legend,

00:45:56.160 | improve your cooking skills from Gordon Ramsay,

00:45:58.480 | or learn entrepreneurship from none other

00:46:00.640 | than Richard Branson.

00:46:02.280 | With over 180 classes

00:46:03.880 | from a range of world-class instructors,

00:46:06.560 | that thing you've always wanted to do

00:46:08.280 | is closer than you think.

00:46:09.960 | And with every class I've taken,

00:46:12.040 | I'm blown away by the depth of knowledge

00:46:14.100 | the instructors have and the quality of the experience.

00:46:17.160 | I highly recommend you check it out,

00:46:19.040 | get unlimited access to every class,

00:46:22.000 | and as an All The Hacks listener,

00:46:23.640 | you get 15% off an annual membership.

00:46:26.320 | Go to allthehacks.com/masterclass now.

00:46:30.180 | That's allthehacks.com/masterclass

00:46:33.720 | for 15% off MasterClass.

00:46:35.980 | Getting the crew together isn't as easy as it used to be.

00:46:40.880 | I get it, life comes at you fast,

00:46:43.280 | but trust me, your friends are probably desperate

00:46:46.160 | for a good hang.

00:46:47.320 | So kick 2024 off right by finally hosting that event.

00:46:51.400 | Just make sure you do it the easy way

00:46:53.340 | and let our sponsor Drizzly,

00:46:55.280 | the go-to app for drink delivery,

00:46:57.240 | take care of the supplies.

00:46:59.000 | All you need to come up with is the excuse to get together.

00:47:01.820 | It doesn't even have to be a good one.

00:47:03.680 | It could be your dog's birthday,

00:47:05.080 | that the sun finally came out,

00:47:07.060 | or maybe you just wanna celebrate

00:47:08.540 | that you got through another week.

00:47:10.600 | With Drizzly, you can make hosting easy

00:47:12.720 | by taking the drink run off your to-do list,

00:47:15.240 | which means you can entice your friends

00:47:17.040 | to leave their houses without ever leaving yours.

00:47:20.120 | And since I know you like a good deal,

00:47:21.760 | Drizzly compares prices on their massive selection

00:47:24.360 | of beer, wine, and spirits across multiple stores.

00:47:27.320 | So when I really wanted to make a few cocktails

00:47:29.360 | while we were hosting family last week,

00:47:31.200 | not only could I get an Italian Amaro

00:47:33.280 | delivered in less than an hour,

00:47:34.900 | but I found it for $15 less than my local liquor store.

00:47:38.380 | So whatever the occasion,

00:47:40.040 | download the Drizzly app or go to drizzly.com.

00:47:43.320 | That's D-R-I-Z-Z-L-Y.com today.

00:47:47.320 | Must be 21 plus, not available in all locations.

00:47:50.560 | I just wanna thank you quick

00:47:53.640 | for listening to and supporting the show.

00:47:55.940 | Your support is what keeps this show going.

00:47:58.780 | To get all of the URLs, codes, deals,

00:48:01.480 | and discounts from our partners,

00:48:03.240 | you can go to allthehacks.com/deals.

00:48:06.800 | So please consider supporting those who support us.

00:48:10.000 | So I've been trying to take notes.

00:48:10.920 | I'm gonna try to recap all the things.

00:48:12.760 | Beneficiaries on accounts, important.

00:48:14.760 | Setting up a will, setting up a power of attorney

00:48:18.320 | or a healthcare proxy, healthcare directives,

00:48:21.080 | all of which are common components of an estate plan.

00:48:24.200 | Anyone listening knows that I used a product

00:48:26.440 | called Trust & Will to set up our estate plan for our family.

00:48:29.560 | If you've listened in the last few weeks,

00:48:30.820 | you know that All The Hacks members

00:48:32.000 | get 50% off Trust & Will, which is pretty cool.

00:48:34.360 | Thank you, Cody, the CEO, if you're listening,

00:48:36.120 | for offering that to members.

00:48:37.880 | But your parents might be more comfortable

00:48:39.480 | with someone in person,

00:48:40.440 | and there's plenty of estate planning attorneys

00:48:42.560 | they can talk to.

00:48:44.240 | Insurance coverage, especially long-term care insurance,

00:48:47.100 | whether that's there,

00:48:47.960 | any other types of insurance policies or life insurance.

00:48:50.600 | Not just all of those things,

00:48:52.120 | but when they've last been updated.

00:48:53.920 | Usernames, passwords.

00:48:55.680 | I'm a big fan of 1Password.

00:48:57.400 | I went through what I'll call a medium painful process

00:49:00.680 | one holiday of getting my parents all set up

00:49:03.640 | and moving every single password they had

00:49:06.040 | in their head, in their notebooks.

00:49:08.680 | Maybe it was just they had one password

00:49:10.580 | and I switched it, or I helped them go

00:49:13.060 | and create new passwords on lots of different services

00:49:15.460 | so that they were less vulnerable to someone

00:49:18.100 | learning one password and getting access to everything.

00:49:21.040 | - Also, where it is.

00:49:22.900 | - Yeah, is it in a safe?

00:49:24.020 | Does it have a combo?

00:49:25.540 | - Where's all of it stored?

00:49:26.860 | Let's be honest, it's great if our parents

00:49:29.220 | are using a digital storage option for passwords.

00:49:33.760 | How many of them have it written down

00:49:35.300 | on a piece of paper somewhere in the house?

00:49:37.940 | Where is that piece of paper in the house?

00:49:40.260 | That is very critical for you to know.

00:49:42.380 | I will also say, and I gotta be honest,

00:49:44.620 | my dad might be listening to this,

00:49:45.900 | so I'll be careful about exactly what I share,

00:49:48.220 | but I was in the incredibly fortunate situation

00:49:52.700 | that my parents sat down with me.

00:49:55.340 | There was a full list of all the assets

00:49:58.100 | where everything was, who I would need to talk to.

00:50:01.380 | My sister and I, for well over a decade,

00:50:04.180 | have had basically a call sheet, I would call it,

00:50:07.340 | about if this happens to this person,

00:50:09.780 | then this is the triggering situation.

00:50:11.340 | If this happens to this person,

00:50:12.460 | then this is the triggering situation.

00:50:14.340 | Here's who you call if this happens to this person.

00:50:16.980 | The peace of mind that provides,

00:50:19.420 | and is it hard to think about a situation

00:50:21.600 | where my parents either are incapacitated

00:50:23.660 | or no longer with us?

00:50:24.860 | Yeah, it's painful.

00:50:26.180 | I don't enjoy that part of it,

00:50:27.500 | but the fact that I know exactly how

00:50:30.620 | to very painlessly settle in a state

00:50:33.460 | and a time where I'm already gonna be in a lot of pain,

00:50:36.700 | again, greatest act of love.

00:50:38.400 | It is such a kind thing to do.

00:50:40.220 | And I know not everyone's parents is gonna write out the list

00:50:43.500 | and slide it across the dining room table

00:50:45.300 | and have a three hour long conversation about everything

00:50:47.940 | and have a basically org chart about the flow

00:50:50.900 | of where everything is and who to call

00:50:52.740 | and who to get in touch with.

00:50:54.260 | But if you're a parent and listening, please do it.

00:50:56.940 | It is so kind and so wonderful.

00:51:00.140 | And on the flip side, on the other side of my family,

00:51:03.620 | two months ago, my mother-in-law was diagnosed with cancer

00:51:06.740 | and she's fine now, thank goodness,

00:51:08.300 | but pre-surgery, I had to be the one that was like,

00:51:11.420 | do we have a will?

00:51:13.300 | Do we have an upstated power of attorney,

00:51:16.400 | advanced healthcare directives?

00:51:18.260 | Does your husband know how to log into all the bank accounts

00:51:20.280 | and pay the bills?

00:51:21.300 | And did I get some elbows from my husband

00:51:23.900 | about bringing this up moments after we started

00:51:26.300 | having this intimate conversation about cancer?

00:51:28.860 | Yeah, but also, it was my mother-in-law like,

00:51:31.460 | no, you're right, I have to get all of this done.

00:51:34.060 | I pointed her to resources and directions

00:51:36.100 | and ways to get it handled.

00:51:38.500 | But if you're not gonna ask the hard questions,

00:51:41.140 | especially in a moment of an inciting incident,

00:51:44.240 | what if something had gone wrong

00:51:45.820 | and we hadn't have settled all of that?

00:51:48.400 | It would have been hugely difficult

00:51:50.660 | and painful for the family.

00:51:52.140 | And thank goodness everything's okay,

00:51:53.740 | but that's not always what happens.

00:51:56.460 | And that's why someone has to ask

00:51:58.100 | the awkward, uncomfortable question.

00:51:59.900 | - I haven't gone through all of these.

00:52:01.740 | I've gone through some of them.

00:52:02.940 | I've encouraged my parents also to sign up.

00:52:05.180 | There's a product that I worked with a while ago

00:52:07.220 | I still use called Trustworthy,

00:52:08.900 | which is basically a place online

00:52:11.700 | to put all of these things.

00:52:13.020 | And the thing I liked was it has a great onboarding

00:52:14.700 | where it's like, do you have your insurance documents?

00:52:16.460 | Do you have a contact for your financial advisor?

00:52:18.860 | What are your bank accounts?

00:52:20.220 | The other great thing is it doesn't actually

00:52:21.580 | get into the dollar value of accounts.

00:52:24.260 | It's more about where are they

00:52:26.140 | and who do I contact and not how much is in there.

00:52:28.800 | So Trustworthy is another option.

00:52:30.980 | I think the discount they gave is still good

00:52:33.780 | at allthehacks.com/trustworthy if anyone's interested.

00:52:36.580 | I love that product.

00:52:37.900 | There's plenty of options.

00:52:39.100 | Just finding something that can help organize this

00:52:41.780 | and make it easy offline, online, in a safe,

00:52:44.860 | just get the access.

00:52:46.740 | I feel like we went through the flow.

00:52:48.300 | You have the conversation.

00:52:49.860 | Why do we have the conversation?

00:52:51.140 | How do we do it?

00:52:51.980 | What's the important stuff to do?

00:52:53.940 | The good news is once all of this is gone,

00:52:55.980 | there's a little bit of relief.

00:52:57.220 | You could just not worry about any of these things

00:52:59.580 | and just be in the moment.

00:53:00.900 | Talk about the health situation, be supportive,

00:53:03.300 | not be stressed out about all the other components.

00:53:05.540 | And if you're a parent or the parent of adult children

00:53:08.620 | or small children,

00:53:09.780 | these are all really important things still.

00:53:11.340 | My two-year-old and nine-month-old does not need to know

00:53:15.140 | how to access the bank account, but someone does.

00:53:17.620 | Because were something to happen to my wife and I,

00:53:19.740 | someone needs to be able to figure it out.

00:53:21.400 | So for us, we've identified who that person is.

00:53:24.020 | We've gone in on Trustworthy and said,

00:53:25.700 | "Hey, if something happens, let this person have access."

00:53:28.900 | We've put our 1Password emergency kit in a folder

00:53:32.100 | in an estate plan in a safe in our house,

00:53:34.300 | and they know the combination to that safe.

00:53:35.900 | So we've tried to do these things already.

00:53:38.460 | Anyone could have a health problem at any time,

00:53:40.700 | but it doesn't feel like we're approaching

00:53:43.100 | end of life right now, but we're still prepared.

00:53:46.140 | And it just gives us a lot of peace of mind.

00:53:47.700 | And it's not that hard creating your estate plan,

00:53:50.820 | your will, like you can do it in hours.

00:53:53.060 | If anything, the hardest thing is figuring out

00:53:55.020 | who to name as the caregivers and the trustees.

00:53:58.140 | That kind of stuff is harder.

00:53:59.300 | But actually just putting the docs together

00:54:00.860 | and signing them was actually the easy part.

00:54:03.820 | - Well, and that's also why checking in on this information

00:54:07.860 | and making that a practice to do every couple of years,

00:54:10.340 | particularly if you have young children,

00:54:12.620 | because the named guardian very easily could shift

00:54:16.860 | over a couple of year period.

00:54:19.040 | So making sure that is always up to date and accurate,

00:54:22.540 | really no matter your age, is incredibly important.

00:54:26.100 | And also, I know some people will think

00:54:28.100 | that this is a little bit bonkers,

00:54:29.740 | but sometimes it gets brought up like age appropriate ways

00:54:32.100 | to talk about this with kids.

00:54:33.340 | And like, listen, if you have adult children

00:54:35.080 | who are fully into their like 20s, 30s, 40s,

00:54:38.500 | like, yeah, let's have this conversation.

00:54:41.220 | When I was 10 was the first time

00:54:43.700 | that I had any sort of version of this conversation,

00:54:46.860 | which might sound crazy, but hear me out.

00:54:49.780 | We were living in Japan at the time

00:54:52.700 | and obviously not near any of my family.

00:54:56.100 | So it was my parents, me and my little sister,

00:54:59.020 | we're the only family around,

00:55:00.340 | and my parents were traveling together

00:55:02.080 | and my sister and I were staying behind.

00:55:03.660 | Now we were obviously being left with a guardian,

00:55:06.140 | but my mom said right before they left,

00:55:09.980 | "If anything were to ever happen,

00:55:12.220 | you just need to call your Uncle Kevin

00:55:13.940 | and he'll know what to do."

00:55:15.260 | I was 10, but the level of peace that gave me

00:55:17.940 | to just know like, this is the adult

00:55:19.540 | that I would need to contact if something were to happen.

00:55:22.200 | Now, I did not know at the time that my Uncle Kevin

00:55:24.380 | is who would have been our guardian

00:55:26.160 | and we would have just been moving back to America.

00:55:28.260 | That would have been the course of action

00:55:29.780 | if something happened.

00:55:30.860 | I didn't know that piece, but I just knew that like,

00:55:33.620 | this is the adult who we should get in touch with

00:55:36.460 | if something ever were to happen to my parents.

00:55:38.980 | And for me, there was a level of peace to that.

00:55:41.100 | Now, all kids are different.

00:55:42.300 | Your kid might be really anxious in a way that like,

00:55:44.220 | that's not helpful information to share,

00:55:46.500 | but at least make sure to know

00:55:48.220 | that the person watching them knows who to call

00:55:51.020 | if something were to happen.

00:55:52.420 | Like sharing information also on that level,

00:55:55.020 | we never wanna think about it

00:55:56.180 | because we don't wanna think about something happening to us

00:55:58.260 | but it's really important.

00:55:59.940 | - Maybe not my two-year-old,

00:56:00.860 | but our au pair should know what to do

00:56:02.380 | if something were to happen when we're out of town

00:56:04.180 | or my sister, for sure.

00:56:05.620 | Okay, as long as we're on the topic

00:56:07.420 | of uncomfortable conversations we can have about money,

00:56:10.860 | there is another topic in the book

00:56:12.680 | that I feel like it would do justice to cover,

00:56:14.960 | maybe not as in-depth

00:56:16.760 | because it probably doesn't come up for everyone

00:56:19.700 | or many of us listening might've already gotten past it.

00:56:21.740 | Let's talk about the conversation

00:56:22.980 | around money and your partner.

00:56:25.380 | We've already covered the emotional side of it

00:56:27.660 | in my conversation with Ramit,

00:56:29.420 | but I haven't had any conversation on this show ever

00:56:32.300 | about pre-nups and post-nups and that whole can of worms.

00:56:36.540 | And I know you have and have lots of opinions.

00:56:38.460 | So for anyone who's either in that situation,

00:56:41.500 | will be in it, regrets not having been in it,

00:56:43.880 | what advice do you have for people to think about?

00:56:45.860 | - Man, we need to stop making the pre-nup a big deal.

00:56:49.260 | That is my first and foremost soapbox on this topic

00:56:52.700 | is that pre-nups are one of the biggest remaining taboos,

00:56:57.180 | I feel, when it comes to money conversations

00:57:00.220 | because to just say the word, like people are like,

00:57:02.860 | cursed, how dare you get a pre-nup?

00:57:05.380 | Your marriage is gonna fail.

00:57:07.420 | You do not trust and love your spouse if you want a pre-nup.

00:57:11.440 | All right, here's my multi-prong attack

00:57:13.980 | on people who are currently listening to this

00:57:15.860 | and feeling that way.

00:57:17.020 | First and foremost, as my pre-nup attorney said to me,

00:57:19.580 | because yes, I do indeed have a pre-nup,

00:57:22.420 | is that everyone has a pre-nup,

00:57:24.660 | it's just the default laws of your state.

00:57:26.700 | What a great reframe.

00:57:27.980 | So technically, there is a pre-nup in place for you

00:57:30.900 | if you didn't get one yourself,

00:57:32.080 | and it's just based on how your state

00:57:33.980 | would divide assets in the case of a divorce.

00:57:36.560 | All right, fair enough.

00:57:38.860 | You should look at those state laws prior to getting married

00:57:43.100 | to see if that feels fair to you

00:57:45.100 | and the ecosystem of your relationship.

00:57:46.900 | And if it doesn't, you should get a pre-nup

00:57:49.540 | because that'll account for what actually feels fair to you

00:57:52.660 | within reason.

00:57:54.100 | You can't just do like anything you want in a pre-nup.

00:57:56.940 | There are rules and stipulations.

00:57:59.980 | But within reason, you can take back some level of control.

00:58:03.140 | The other thing is I really just think of it

00:58:05.260 | as marital insurance.

00:58:06.480 | And I think of it that way because again,

00:58:08.880 | a lot of times people say like, oh, if you get a pre-nup,

00:58:11.180 | it means that you don't love or trust your partner.

00:58:13.980 | Well, I don't have renter's insurance

00:58:15.380 | because I think that I'm gonna get burglarized.

00:58:17.700 | I don't have car insurance

00:58:19.900 | because I think I'm gonna get into an accident.

00:58:22.140 | I have those things just in case the bad thing does happen,

00:58:25.160 | then I'm protected.

00:58:26.440 | I kind of think of pre-nups in a very similar way

00:58:28.740 | that it is an insurance policy on my marriage.

00:58:31.460 | I didn't get married thinking,

00:58:33.460 | well, this could go sideways and we could get divorced.

00:58:36.060 | I got married thinking this is my person forever,

00:58:38.600 | but life is long.

00:58:40.040 | And if something happens

00:58:41.780 | and we're no longer happy being married,

00:58:44.340 | then I have an insurance policy

00:58:45.700 | that will make it much easier to get divorced.

00:58:48.220 | And we will have made decisions

00:58:50.560 | about what feels fair and equitable

00:58:52.340 | at a point where we're very much in love

00:58:54.780 | and we'll have been kind to each other.

00:58:57.020 | And it will save so much money on the cost of a divorce.

00:59:00.500 | Divorce can be so expensive.

00:59:03.340 | And also no one talks about that part.

00:59:06.000 | And then finally, for those of you listening

00:59:08.060 | who are thinking, well, I just never leave my spouse.

00:59:10.540 | Listen, people think that for myriad reasons.

00:59:12.620 | It could be religiously, societal pressure,

00:59:15.220 | cultural pressure, personal feelings.

00:59:17.500 | You just would never leave this person

00:59:18.800 | no matter what happened.

00:59:20.600 | Well, you can't control what they will do.

00:59:23.060 | They could leave you.

00:59:24.620 | And that's always really hard to hear.

00:59:26.620 | But again, to have a document in place

00:59:30.020 | that stipulates what feels fair to you is important.

00:59:34.220 | Because finally, everyone listening here

00:59:37.460 | would not sign a contract or a business agreement

00:59:42.640 | or anything in the business realm.

00:59:45.440 | You would never join a partnership with a friend

00:59:48.000 | without having a contract about what feels fair

00:59:52.460 | and deciding what would also happen

00:59:54.800 | if things were to go south.

00:59:56.580 | Why are we all signing this very legally binding agreement

01:00:00.040 | that has huge financial implications

01:00:02.160 | without reading the fine print?

01:00:03.880 | And that is one thing too

01:00:04.960 | that I think about a marriage license

01:00:06.400 | is that's one of the biggest financial decisions

01:00:08.680 | you might ever make in your life.

01:00:10.640 | Why are we not knowing the terms and conditions

01:00:13.160 | prior to signing?

01:00:14.160 | - One thing that never crossed my mind

01:00:15.360 | with what you just said was that

01:00:17.240 | I have at least a few friends now

01:00:19.960 | that have gone through the process of divorce.

01:00:22.260 | And even when amicable, it is very expensive.

01:00:26.120 | And I've always just put prenups in the light of

01:00:30.860 | this is a thing to make sure that you protect money

01:00:34.520 | in a situation where one person has more

01:00:37.280 | or might have more or something like that.

01:00:38.640 | That's the idea.

01:00:40.640 | But is there a world where someone could say,

01:00:42.760 | look, I believe that if we ever get divorced,

01:00:45.240 | we should split everything 50/50,

01:00:47.080 | but we should still have a prenup so that if it happens,

01:00:49.960 | it just is a simple process.

01:00:51.840 | In the way that an estate plan might avoid

01:00:54.520 | the messy process of probate,

01:00:56.520 | you could decide how things get affected.

01:00:58.840 | Could a prenup just be something that adheres

01:01:00.920 | to the same process as what you'd thought

01:01:04.520 | what the state would do, but just does it more efficiently

01:01:07.640 | and saves you on attorney fees?

01:01:09.960 | - I would talk to an attorney about that

01:01:12.400 | before I'm gonna be like, yeah, absolutely.

01:01:14.280 | 'Cause again, so much varies by state.

01:01:16.940 | If you live in a community property state,

01:01:18.960 | your divorce might actually be easier

01:01:20.640 | if you're not gonna contest anything,

01:01:22.000 | 'cause they're usually just like 50/50 down the middle,

01:01:24.680 | let's go, it doesn't matter why.

01:01:26.920 | So again, knowing the laws of the land

01:01:29.960 | could impact whether or not you need one

01:01:32.000 | in the first place, if it feels super fair,

01:01:33.920 | and you also can see a world where you can get

01:01:36.240 | through a divorce quick and easy

01:01:38.360 | with like minimal amount of pain and suffering financially.

01:01:41.720 | 'Cause if that stuff drags out, it is so expensive.

01:01:45.240 | But the other part, I sometimes feel like

01:01:47.000 | it's a bit of a misconception that a prenup

01:01:49.760 | is just to protect the one person

01:01:51.520 | who brings in all of the assets.

01:01:54.080 | Yes, obviously, if you come from wealth

01:01:56.520 | or you've already created wealth,

01:01:58.200 | those are two key reasons that you would want a prenup.

01:02:00.800 | A third being if you have a child

01:02:02.600 | from a preexisting relationship,

01:02:04.840 | that's another good reason to have a prenup,

01:02:06.520 | to protect the financial interests of your child.

01:02:09.080 | But it also can be about what would happen

01:02:12.880 | to, let's say, retirement accounts.

01:02:14.720 | Those are often forgotten about in these conversations.

01:02:17.240 | So even if you haven't accumulated

01:02:19.320 | a bunch of assets going in,

01:02:21.360 | if you have one that you know has the potential

01:02:23.680 | to get pretty significant over, let's say,

01:02:26.080 | 10, 15, 20 years of a marriage,

01:02:28.860 | those are often some of the first assets

01:02:30.660 | to get completely gouged in a divorce.

01:02:33.320 | So even just having a prenup that might be as simple as,

01:02:36.280 | we're protecting our retirement accounts,

01:02:38.280 | we each just have the right to our own retirement account,

01:02:40.640 | we don't have rights to each other,

01:02:42.840 | that might be something that saves you

01:02:44.420 | a ton of money in the future.

01:02:46.940 | Now, a prenup isn't cheap.

01:02:48.520 | I look at it as an upfront lump sum on an insurance policy.

01:02:52.880 | So again, that amount of money might not feel good to you

01:02:56.360 | for doing something just like

01:02:57.560 | exclusively protecting a retirement plan.

01:03:01.240 | But if we wanna talk postnups,

01:03:03.760 | this also might be an opportunity

01:03:05.280 | to bring that up with a spouse.

01:03:07.440 | And postnups are a really hard sell

01:03:10.540 | if you have not previously had the prenup conversation.

01:03:13.800 | I actually know a couple of people

01:03:15.560 | who wanted to have a prenup,

01:03:17.080 | just kind of ran the clock down on getting it done,

01:03:20.280 | and then got married and had a postnup instead.

01:03:23.880 | That's an easier pitch.

01:03:25.840 | If you're 10, 15 years into your marriage,

01:03:27.820 | and all of a sudden you're like,

01:03:28.660 | "Oh, postnup sounds like a great plan."

01:03:31.160 | And you pitch that to your spouse,

01:03:33.160 | it might sound like you're preparing to divorce them.

01:03:35.160 | So it's a much harder sell to be like,

01:03:37.000 | "Let's have a postnuptial agreement."

01:03:39.120 | - But I guess conceptually,

01:03:40.000 | you can make these changes at any point in time,

01:03:41.840 | it sounds like.

01:03:42.680 | It doesn't have to be done before marriage.

01:03:44.480 | - You can.

01:03:45.320 | And honestly, a lot of prenups should, again,

01:03:48.640 | like all the documents we've been talking about already,

01:03:51.620 | you should check in on that from time to time,

01:03:53.760 | just in the sense of,

01:03:54.800 | has something big shifted in your marriage?

01:03:58.960 | So if you had outlined something in the prenup

01:04:01.520 | that now no longer feels fair,

01:04:03.120 | based on the current ecosystem of your relationship,

01:04:05.840 | it might be time for a postnup.

01:04:07.640 | And that could be something like,

01:04:09.080 | "Hey, if the two of you waived alimony in your prenup,

01:04:12.720 | "but you're 10 years in, you've had two kids,

01:04:15.560 | "and one of you has left the workforce

01:04:17.120 | "for an extended period of time,

01:04:18.680 | "that doesn't feel so fair anymore

01:04:20.460 | "that you waived alimony in the prenup."

01:04:22.560 | So it might warrant having a postnup to compensate for that.

01:04:26.640 | Or maybe you had kids,

01:04:28.240 | and now you feel like the finances

01:04:30.000 | are a little bit of a different conversation.

01:04:32.080 | Or maybe somebody, Bill Perkins style,

01:04:34.160 | received a lump sum inheritance early,

01:04:36.600 | and you bought property with it,

01:04:38.000 | and you wanna have a postnup that accounts for

01:04:40.440 | who has rights to that property in the case of a divorce.

01:04:43.000 | - I know some people whose parents have asked

01:04:45.380 | to set up a postnup pre-inheritance,

01:04:47.920 | but a situation that you just alluded to

01:04:49.600 | that I thought was something that

01:04:51.640 | I'd never really thought about a prenup in this perspective

01:04:54.440 | was one of the spouses was going to leave the workforce

01:04:56.400 | to take care of kids full-time,

01:04:58.320 | and that would, in the future,

01:05:00.520 | kind of hinder their ability to earn income.

01:05:02.720 | They'd be out of the workforce maybe five, 10 years.

01:05:05.080 | They would be out of their career track.

01:05:07.080 | At that point in time, they actually talked about,

01:05:08.980 | "Can we set up something different?

01:05:10.760 | "Because my ability, were we to get divorced,

01:05:13.160 | "to go get a job is different going forward than it is now."

01:05:16.120 | So that was a point in time where someone brought that up,

01:05:19.200 | where it felt a little more natural

01:05:21.320 | than just out of the blue.

01:05:22.820 | I haven't thought or done any of this stuff,

01:05:25.000 | it just never crossed our minds,

01:05:26.360 | and now I don't even know how I'm gonna think about it.

01:05:28.680 | You just threw this at me,

01:05:29.520 | like you're crazy to have not done something.

01:05:31.720 | I respect your opinion, and I haven't done it,

01:05:34.240 | and I still have this weird undertone of like,

01:05:36.980 | "Why would I do it?

01:05:37.820 | "That seems crazy."

01:05:38.640 | I trust, you know, like... (laughs)

01:05:40.320 | So it's just so funny that-- - I get it.

01:05:41.680 | - I'm trying to have this rational conversation,

01:05:43.440 | and those emotions, I still see them.

01:05:45.340 | - Oh, listen, I have,

01:05:47.600 | I'm gonna say 85% of people react to this soapbox

01:05:52.000 | that I have in that way.

01:05:54.100 | Even if they see from like a very rational side of things

01:05:57.520 | that it makes a lot of sense,

01:05:58.600 | a lot of people still feel,

01:06:01.020 | "Yeah, it's not romantic, I get it.

01:06:02.920 | "There's nothing about that process that is romantic."

01:06:06.640 | But even if you're not gonna sign on the dotted line,

01:06:09.920 | to have the conversations that are required of you

01:06:13.200 | when going through the prenup process,

01:06:15.280 | that is some of the best pre-marriage conversations

01:06:18.680 | that I could ever recommend somebody having.

01:06:20.600 | And even if you're not going to get married,

01:06:22.520 | but if you're in a long-term committed relationship,

01:06:24.840 | it is such helpful conversation to be having,

01:06:28.560 | 'cause it really digs into

01:06:29.920 | not only how each of you react to money,

01:06:32.240 | and let me tell you,

01:06:33.200 | you'll be surprised what triggers you

01:06:34.720 | during the prenup process.

01:06:35.960 | And you might be like,

01:06:36.800 | "Wow, I did not expect to react that way to something."

01:06:39.440 | But you will.

01:06:41.560 | And it also gets into how each of you

01:06:43.800 | personally feels about money,

01:06:44.900 | how you wanna handle money in a marriage,

01:06:46.560 | what feels fair to you,

01:06:47.880 | and then, yeah, if certain things come up,

01:06:50.320 | what feels fair to you at that time.

01:06:52.720 | And again, that's gonna be an evolving conversation.

01:06:55.720 | What felt fair six years ago

01:06:57.720 | when my husband and I were working on this

01:06:59.340 | probably feels a little different than right now

01:07:01.800 | at this phase in our relationship and marriage.

01:07:04.720 | - So I just binged part of Ramit's show,

01:07:07.440 | and I've listened to his podcast.

01:07:09.720 | It still amazes me,

01:07:11.720 | just given the way that my wife and I manage our finances,

01:07:14.320 | that there are couples where you can get married

01:07:16.880 | and find out later that one spouse has a lot of debt,

01:07:20.200 | and the other one doesn't.

01:07:21.400 | It seems crazy that you could sign a contract

01:07:23.280 | that would require you to be equally liable

01:07:26.040 | for a financial situation in some ways

01:07:29.040 | without actually understanding that situation

01:07:31.560 | before going in.

01:07:32.880 | I know you have a few things to say here,

01:07:34.380 | so I'm just gonna leave that as an open door

01:07:35.960 | when it comes to if either spouse has student loans

01:07:39.120 | or credit card debt or anything like that.

01:07:40.960 | Does that play into this situation and change anything?

01:07:43.680 | - It should.

01:07:44.640 | If your spouse has debt, first of all,

01:07:47.760 | again, know the rules of your state.

01:07:50.040 | Is there any possibility for you to become

01:07:52.520 | legally obligated to that debt

01:07:54.920 | as a byproduct of getting married?

01:07:57.080 | Oftentimes the answer is no,

01:07:59.280 | unless you accumulated it together in the marriage,

01:08:02.240 | or they accumulated it unbeknownst to you in the marriage,

01:08:06.240 | it still could impact you,

01:08:07.640 | so that's an important thing to know.

01:08:09.480 | But student loans obviously being a big thing

01:08:11.280 | for millennials, outside of you co-signing on it,

01:08:14.960 | typically you are not legally connected to that debt

01:08:19.100 | in the case of a divorce.

01:08:20.520 | Now, what happens if you get married

01:08:24.480 | and you graciously, aggressively help your spouse

01:08:28.000 | pay off the student loans,

01:08:30.240 | and then your marriage goes down the tubes

01:08:32.120 | a year or two later?

01:08:33.480 | I've seen this on Reddit a few times.

01:08:35.280 | (laughs)

01:08:37.020 | And all of a sudden, you had paid tens of thousands of

01:08:40.440 | dollars to help your spouse get out of debt,

01:08:42.400 | and they're like, "Okay, I'm out."

01:08:44.400 | A prenup actually could solve for that problem.

01:08:46.560 | There's all sorts of different strategies

01:08:48.320 | that you could put in,

01:08:49.240 | but you could have kind of like a vesting period

01:08:51.880 | for what they would owe you back

01:08:54.120 | if you came in and paid off a huge amount of their debt,

01:08:57.080 | and then the marriage dissolved in a certain period of time.

01:09:00.500 | Again, is that a romantic thing to be talking about

01:09:03.540 | when you're planning your wedding?

01:09:04.880 | Absolutely not.

01:09:06.600 | Does it sometimes sound like you don't trust your partner?

01:09:09.160 | It might, but that is an important conversation

01:09:12.360 | to be having, 'cause again,

01:09:13.820 | you just don't know what could happen.

01:09:16.680 | And particularly if you have worked very hard

01:09:18.880 | to set up a solid financial life for yourself,

01:09:22.400 | you don't want something like a divorce

01:09:24.320 | to completely undo all of that work.

01:09:26.600 | But it sounds like even if you're four or five years

01:09:28.120 | into a marriage and you're like,

01:09:28.960 | let's use our savings to pay off your student loans,

01:09:31.520 | that could be a time where you say,

01:09:32.760 | could we set up a very specific post-nup for this situation?

01:09:36.380 | The thing that I never really considered is like,

01:09:38.100 | it doesn't necessarily have to change

01:09:41.120 | some of the default state rules.

01:09:43.280 | You can get a post-nup, I assume, that says,

01:09:45.720 | "Hey, you're gonna have to pay back the student loans,"

01:09:47.880 | but we still split all of our assets.

01:09:50.180 | You don't have to rewrite everything

01:09:51.720 | and kind of do it in a way that's like protecting your money

01:09:55.160 | and make sure no one ever gets any.

01:09:56.800 | It doesn't have to have all those stipulations.

01:09:59.080 | And it doesn't need to be adversarial, truly, at any point.

01:10:02.560 | The one beauty I see of doing it at what hopefully

01:10:05.720 | is sort of like a peak time of your love bubble

01:10:07.880 | when you're engaged and you're getting excited

01:10:09.680 | to be married and start this life together,

01:10:11.980 | that you will be kind and fair and generous with each other,

01:10:14.560 | 'cause there's a reason you're marrying this person.

01:10:17.080 | And also, depending on work situations,

01:10:20.440 | that person might have helped you

01:10:22.000 | get where you are financially.

01:10:24.160 | Like, I know a lot of my career is owed to my husband

01:10:27.600 | handling a lot of things behind the scenes

01:10:29.900 | and being supportive and doing a lot for my household, too.

01:10:33.360 | So, yeah, he deserves some of the money.

01:10:36.240 | - So, there are a handful of things that we didn't get to.

01:10:38.400 | We're pretty far into this.

01:10:39.840 | I'm gonna maybe ask you some questions.

01:10:41.460 | We could treat it more like a rapid fire,

01:10:43.320 | and you're welcome to get on your two-minute soapbox

01:10:46.360 | and share your thoughts.

01:10:48.000 | While we're still on the topic of money and other people

01:10:50.400 | and taboo subjects, talking about money with friends,

01:10:53.720 | sharing information about your finances,

01:10:56.520 | you have a perspective that I would say maybe is contrarian.

01:10:59.320 | Can you share?

01:11:00.360 | - Yeah, I think you should.

01:11:02.200 | That's contrarian.

01:11:03.240 | Most people don't wanna share the information.

01:11:05.960 | You don't have to share numbers.

01:11:07.880 | But if you are dealing with paying off a big sum of debt,

01:11:12.120 | or if it's a positive thing,

01:11:13.720 | like you're trying to save up for a down payment,

01:11:15.760 | or you guys are gonna have a kid, or whatever it is,

01:11:19.640 | it's helpful to give your friends context

01:11:21.680 | about why you might be opting out of a social engagement,

01:11:25.360 | especially if you keep saying no.

01:11:27.440 | And I really say this one

01:11:28.720 | from a place of personal experience,

01:11:30.440 | where if you say no enough times, people stop asking.

01:11:33.740 | We're also all pretty self-centered creatures

01:11:35.440 | at the end of the day,

01:11:36.280 | so if you keep saying no with absolutely no context,

01:11:38.600 | they're gonna think it's a them thing and not a you thing,

01:11:40.520 | and that for some reason you're mad at them,

01:11:42.280 | or you're upset at them,

01:11:43.100 | or you don't wanna spend time with them.

01:11:44.000 | So giving people a little bit of context about,

01:11:47.440 | hey, I gotta be honest with you.

01:11:49.320 | I'm in a situation where I'm trying

01:11:50.880 | to pay off some credit card debt,

01:11:52.200 | or I'm trying to pay off my student loans,

01:11:54.580 | or we're working really hard

01:11:55.800 | to save up a down payment for a house.

01:11:57.840 | And so that is just gonna kind of limit my ability

01:12:01.000 | to be able to say yes to every single concert,

01:12:04.460 | happy hour, birthday, dinner, insert activity here.

01:12:08.280 | If you're hearing me say this and you're like,

01:12:10.040 | I'm feeling itchy, none of this sounds good, absolutely not.

01:12:13.960 | The other option is always just provide an alternative,

01:12:16.720 | the old compliment sandwich routine.

01:12:18.760 | I love you, wanna spend time with you.

01:12:21.520 | Don't really wanna spend $50 on bottomless brunch.

01:12:24.240 | How about we grab a bagel and go for a walk in the park?

01:12:26.860 | Anytime you're saying no to your friend,

01:12:28.800 | provide a counter to what you're saying no to.

01:12:31.920 | So create a solution to the problem that you are causing

01:12:35.120 | by not wanting to just opt in all the time.

01:12:37.640 | Okay, loaning money to friends.

01:12:40.400 | You can do it, just never expect to get that money back,

01:12:44.760 | which is very common loan advice.

01:12:46.860 | But my bigger point here is I would really encourage you,

01:12:49.720 | friends, family, whomever it is,

01:12:51.640 | reframe that in your mind like a gift.

01:12:54.840 | You are giving them a gift.

01:12:56.320 | So first of all, don't gift them more

01:12:58.080 | than you are comfortable gifting.

01:13:00.600 | And if you get paid back, delightful.

01:13:03.980 | But if you don't, and also the reason I'm saying to do this

01:13:07.120 | is because inevitably you loan somebody money

01:13:09.800 | and then they go and like book a trip or buy a new TV

01:13:13.240 | or like spend money in a way that you're like, excuse you,

01:13:16.600 | I just loaned you $300 and you haven't paid me back yet.

01:13:19.320 | How dare you go spend money on this thing?

01:13:21.440 | You trying to have ownership or entitlement

01:13:23.720 | over someone else's financial life

01:13:25.160 | is just gonna be an absolute relationship deal breaker.

01:13:28.240 | So if you're gonna loan money,

01:13:29.480 | no more than you can afford

01:13:30.720 | and you've reframed it as a gift.

01:13:32.120 | And if you can't do that, for the love of God, say no.

01:13:34.840 | Just don't loan the money.

01:13:36.680 | But provide another thing.

01:13:37.720 | Oh, I'm happy to help you budget.

01:13:39.600 | Happy to help you do this.

01:13:40.640 | What have you, but don't loan that money.

01:13:43.360 | - Engagement rings?

01:13:44.600 | - You know what, I don't see the point.

01:13:46.280 | It is probably the most controversial stance that I have.

01:13:49.840 | I feel like don't waste money on engagement ring.

01:13:52.280 | Why are we doing this?

01:13:53.280 | I don't get it.

01:13:54.900 | I also don't get it from like a personal aesthetic situation.

01:13:57.560 | People who are seeing me, I like wear a gold band.

01:13:59.840 | I do wear a wedding ring.

01:14:01.740 | I did not at any point in my engagement

01:14:03.720 | wear an engagement ring.

01:14:05.780 | You don't need one to propose.

01:14:07.120 | My husband proposed without one.

01:14:08.960 | And if it's something you genuinely want, great.

01:14:13.320 | It is the byproduct of the world's best marketing strategy.

01:14:17.080 | And so that's more of my thing.

01:14:18.840 | Why do we do it?

01:14:19.960 | Do you actually want it?

01:14:21.520 | Or have you only been socially conditioned to want it?

01:14:24.640 | And it's okay if you actually want it.

01:14:26.480 | But do you really truly want it?

01:14:28.840 | And is it worth the ring?

01:14:31.680 | Or is there somewhere else that we can spend this money

01:14:34.520 | that makes more sense and is more aligned with your values?

01:14:37.540 | And again, there are folks for whom it's like,

01:14:39.620 | no, no, jewelry is my thing.

01:14:41.760 | Like, I love this.

01:14:42.620 | I can't wait to have it.

01:14:44.480 | Maybe it doesn't have to be a diamond.

01:14:45.780 | Maybe it can be something else that means more.

01:14:47.660 | Maybe it's made in a lab, so it's a lot cheaper

01:14:49.860 | and people really can't tell the difference.

01:14:51.860 | Whatever it is, but only have one

01:14:54.260 | if it really is in alignment with what you want

01:14:56.380 | and not because of socially

01:14:58.700 | it's what we're supposed to be doing.

01:15:00.340 | - Love it.

01:15:01.160 | Okay, we're gonna wrap.

01:15:02.220 | We're way over time.

01:15:03.580 | But normally I ask everyone for some fun tips

01:15:07.460 | on what to eat, what to drink, what to do,

01:15:09.300 | where they're from.

01:15:10.900 | For you, I have a little bit of a different question

01:15:12.580 | because since we first talked,

01:15:15.260 | you both listened to the episode I did

01:15:16.940 | with Brandon on Japan, went to Japan.

01:15:19.520 | So I would love any tips you have.

01:15:21.500 | Did you do any of the things he suggested?

01:15:23.360 | Were they fun?

01:15:24.200 | Were there things he missed?

01:15:25.260 | And then feel free if you want to make any suggestions

01:15:27.860 | in whatever place you know best.

01:15:29.340 | But rarely do I get to talk to someone

01:15:32.320 | who actually listened to a travel related episode

01:15:35.220 | and then went and did the trip.

01:15:36.820 | - So first of all, never gonna say you missed anything.

01:15:39.500 | All the advice is great.

01:15:40.740 | If anything, I'm really mad I didn't get to it.

01:15:42.900 | Like I'm not kidding, three days sooner.

01:15:45.780 | Because there were multiple restaurants

01:15:48.060 | that he had recommended that had gone up

01:15:50.740 | like 48 hours prior and were already sold out

01:15:54.300 | for the dates that we were gonna be in Japan.

01:15:56.060 | Some of them just book that fast.

01:15:57.800 | So if you listen and you're planning a trip,

01:15:59.980 | truly calendar reminder for like 45 days out

01:16:03.340 | to start planning to make some of the dinner reservations.

01:16:06.260 | So that was my only bummer.

01:16:07.860 | It was so helpful for strategizing my itinerary.

01:16:12.720 | As I mentioned earlier, I lived in Japan as a kid.

01:16:15.540 | So first of all, our itinerary was a little different

01:16:18.460 | than some people's might have been

01:16:19.580 | 'cause I lived in Kobe.

01:16:20.900 | So we wanted to spend a good chunk of time in Kobe.

01:16:23.360 | People kind of overlook Kobe as a city.

01:16:25.360 | So my first tip would also be like, don't overlook it.

01:16:28.460 | It's a great city.

01:16:29.300 | So Kobe beef, go get it in the motherland.

01:16:31.580 | The other part, I was really struggling

01:16:34.820 | about when to stay in a ryokan,

01:16:36.700 | which is a traditional Japanese hotel.

01:16:38.580 | I was like, I know I wanna have this experience.

01:16:40.740 | I want my husband to be able to experience the onsen.

01:16:43.700 | And there's a point in the podcast where he says

01:16:45.540 | that a lot of people try to shoehorn that into Kyoto.

01:16:48.620 | And that is always the wrong move

01:16:50.260 | because Kyoto, you wanna be like out experiencing it,

01:16:53.260 | going to all the temples, going to the wonderful food.

01:16:55.220 | There's so much to do there.

01:16:56.900 | But that's antithetical to what a ryokan is

01:16:59.580 | 'cause you wanna be relaxing in the hotel, doing the onsen.

01:17:04.500 | So that really should be the dessert,

01:17:06.060 | as he described it, of the trip.

01:17:08.500 | We didn't quite do it as dessert.

01:17:10.260 | It was like third course, almost dessert,

01:17:12.740 | but it was at a point where we had done a lot of the things.

01:17:15.500 | And so it was great to be relaxing.

01:17:17.380 | And we actually did it a little outside of Kobe in Arima.

01:17:20.380 | A-R-I-M-A, Arima.

01:17:22.820 | Wonderful town that I would highly recommend.

01:17:25.860 | But that part of the episode,

01:17:28.940 | I just had this like full sense of clarity about like,

01:17:31.860 | okay, this is actually how we should schedule this trip.

01:17:35.740 | So we did Tokyo to Kyoto to Kobe.

01:17:38.620 | In route to Kobe, we did a half day in Osaka,

01:17:40.860 | which some people might think is sacrilege

01:17:42.580 | 'cause you should probably spend like a full day or two.

01:17:46.020 | And then a few days in Kobe, up to Arima for the ryokan,

01:17:49.740 | and then back to Tokyo where we did get to do

01:17:52.740 | a Tokyo Giants-Hanshin Tigers game,

01:17:55.180 | which if you're in Japan during baseball season,

01:17:57.740 | get tickets to a baseball game.

01:17:59.340 | It is a sight to behold.

01:18:01.340 | Even if you're not a baseball fan,

01:18:03.780 | one of my favorite travel things to do

01:18:05.300 | is to try to experience a sports and/or arts thing

01:18:09.220 | in the place where I am.

01:18:11.060 | So baseball in Japan is one of the best things to do.

01:18:14.940 | - That's awesome.

01:18:16.020 | This has been great.

01:18:16.980 | Any final tips, somewhere, someplace,

01:18:19.460 | if you've got something top of mind?

01:18:21.220 | - Oh, Champagne and Gyoza in Tokyo is a great restaurant.

01:18:25.100 | Not talking about money, but Champagne and Gyoza

01:18:27.740 | would be my one restaurant ad

01:18:29.460 | that is not on the podcast previously.

01:18:32.180 | And I would challenge everyone listening

01:18:36.500 | to have one awkward financial conversation

01:18:39.020 | by the end of the week, whatever week you're listening.

01:18:41.580 | - I love it.

01:18:42.420 | - Challenge yourself to have one uncomfortable

01:18:43.580 | money conversation with someone that will be productive.

01:18:46.580 | - Where can people go find scripts you've written,

01:18:49.780 | posts you've written, books you've written, everything?

01:18:51.540 | - So everything we've talked about

01:18:53.340 | is in "Broke Millennial Talks Money," my third book.

01:18:56.540 | You can find that wherever books are sold.

01:18:58.620 | My first two, "Broke Millennial"

01:19:00.020 | and then "Broke Millennial Takes on Investing."

01:19:02.020 | And then I have a workbook, "Broke Millennial Workbook."

01:19:04.820 | Plus me, you can find on Instagram @BrokeMillennialBlog,

01:19:08.740 | on Twitter @BrokeMillennial.

01:19:10.940 | Website is BrokeMillennial.com.

01:19:12.940 | I don't update it a ton anymore.

01:19:14.580 | So I'm gonna be honest,

01:19:15.660 | Instagram is really the place to find me.

01:19:18.420 | - Awesome.

01:19:19.260 | You've owned the term,

01:19:20.100 | but I will say that the content has also evolved.

01:19:23.300 | If you're listening to this and you're like,

01:19:24.260 | I'm not broke, why would I go read this book?

01:19:26.780 | Chapter seven inspired this episode.

01:19:28.240 | There is a lot there.

01:19:29.080 | I just wanna caution anyone

01:19:30.420 | that hears the word "Broke Millennial"

01:19:31.660 | and thinks, I don't need this book

01:19:32.980 | 'cause I have some savings.

01:19:34.380 | There are still scripts in there

01:19:36.340 | that I've used for this purpose already.

01:19:39.060 | - And I will also say, you might not be,

01:19:41.740 | but someone in your life probably is.

01:19:43.820 | And so they might find it helpful.

01:19:45.420 | (laughing)

01:19:46.820 | - Awesome.

01:19:47.660 | Thank you so much for being here.

01:19:49.540 | - It was wonderful to be here.

01:19:50.580 | Thanks for having me.

01:19:51.900 | (upbeat music)

01:19:53.300 | - I really hope you enjoyed this episode.

01:19:55.100 | Thank you so much for listening.

01:19:56.880 | If you haven't already left a rating

01:19:58.380 | and a review for the show in Apple Podcasts or Spotify,

01:20:01.780 | I would really appreciate it.

01:20:03.500 | And if you have any feedback on the show,

01:20:04.940 | questions for me, or just wanna say hi,

01:20:07.300 | I'm chris@allthehacks.com or @hutchins on Twitter.

01:20:11.580 | That's it for this week.

01:20:12.660 | I'll see you next week.

01:20:13.860 | (upbeat music)

01:20:16.720 | (electronic beeping)

01:20:19.800 | (electronic buzzing)

01:20:22.880 | [BLANK_AUDIO]