ATHLLC6546432052

00:00:00.000 | A quick word from our sponsor today.

00:00:01.680 | I love helping you answer all the toughest questions about life, money, and so much

00:00:08.040 | more, but sometimes it's helpful to talk to other people in your situation, which

00:00:12.840 | actually gets harder as you build your wealth.

00:00:14.920 | So I want to introduce you to today's sponsor, LongAngle.

00:00:18.160 | LongAngle is a community of high net worth individuals with backgrounds in

00:00:22.200 | everything from technology, finance, medicine, to real estate, law,

00:00:26.040 | manufacturing, and more.

00:00:27.600 | I'm a member of LongAngle.

00:00:29.480 | I've loved being a part of the community, and I've even had one of the founders,

00:00:33.040 | Tad Fallows, join me on all the hacks in episode 87 to talk about alternative

00:00:37.200 | investments.

00:00:37.920 | Now, the majority of LongAngle members are first generation wealth, young, highly

00:00:42.640 | successful individuals who join the community to share knowledge and learn

00:00:46.400 | from each other in a confidential, unbiased setting.

00:00:49.600 | On top of that, members also get access to some unique private market investment

00:00:54.400 | opportunities.

00:00:55.200 | Like I said, I'm a member and I've gotten so much value from the community

00:00:59.120 | because you're getting advice and feedback from people in a similar

00:01:02.280 | situation to you on everything from your investment portfolio to your children's

00:01:06.680 | education, to finding a concierge doctor.

00:01:09.200 | So many of these conversations aren't happening anywhere else online.

00:01:13.120 | So if you have more than 2.2 million in investable assets, which is their

00:01:17.400 | minimum for membership, I encourage you to check out LongAngle and it's totally

00:01:21.960 | free to join.

00:01:22.760 | Just go to longangle.com to learn more.

00:01:26.120 | And if you choose to apply, be sure to let them know.

00:01:28.840 | You heard about it here.

00:01:29.960 | Again, that's longangle.com.

00:01:34.640 | Hello and welcome to another episode of All The Hacks, a show about upgrading

00:01:43.760 | life, money and travel all while spending less and saving more.

00:01:48.000 | I'm your host, Chris Hutchins.

00:01:50.280 | And before we jump in, I just want to thank all of you for your support because

00:01:54.120 | this show has already grown beyond my expectations.

00:01:57.080 | In fact, it's gotten so big that I've decided to start looking for someone to

00:02:00.480 | help out part-time.

00:02:01.440 | That includes everything from reaching out to guests, helping edit episodes,

00:02:05.360 | creating social media posts and so much more.

00:02:07.640 | I thought I'd share this with you first in case there's a listener out there

00:02:10.960 | looking for their own side hustle.

00:02:12.440 | So if you're interested, please shoot me an email at chris@allthehacks.com.

00:02:16.720 | Okay, so this week we're talking to Andy Hill, the founder of the award-winning

00:02:22.360 | podcast and blog Marriage, Kids and Money.

00:02:25.280 | He and his wife, Nicole, have two kids and have been on an incredible journey

00:02:28.920 | together.

00:02:29.440 | They started out with $50,000 in debt when they found out they were having a

00:02:33.760 | child and aggressively saved to be debt-free before she was born.

00:02:37.360 | But they didn't stop there.

00:02:38.880 | Over the next 10 years, they managed to pay off their mortgage and build their

00:02:42.920 | net worth to over a million dollars.

00:02:44.760 | In this episode, we'll talk about how they managed to do all of that.

00:02:47.880 | We'll get Andy's relationship hacks, especially about how to manage money with

00:02:51.440 | your spouse and learn what he's doing to teach his kids all about money.

00:02:55.440 | I'm really looking forward to this one.

00:02:56.920 | But before we jump in, I have to remind you, Chris Hutchins works at Wealthfront.

00:03:00.920 | All opinions expressed by Chris and his guests are solely their own opinions and

00:03:05.040 | do not reflect the opinion of Wealthfront.

00:03:06.880 | This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for

00:03:11.080 | investment decisions.

00:03:12.040 | Andy, thanks for being here.

00:03:14.800 | Thanks for having me, Chris.

00:03:15.880 | Appreciate it.

00:03:16.440 | Yeah, it's always fun to get to talk to someone on a podcast that you've known

00:03:20.360 | for a bit.

00:03:20.880 | We've met at FinCon a few times, so this is really exciting and I want to jump

00:03:24.840 | right in.

00:03:25.240 | Absolutely.

00:03:26.160 | I'm in.

00:03:26.440 | So, you've built an entire brand around marriage, kids and money, and we haven't

00:03:32.520 | really delved in this show into the marriage or the kids.

00:03:35.920 | We've talked a lot about money, so I want to start off on the relationship side and

00:03:40.360 | just understand, what do you think some of the common misconceptions are when it

00:03:44.000 | comes to relationships and money?

00:03:45.640 | Oh man, I think personally, and then I think of some of the folks that I've been

00:03:50.120 | able to speak to on the show, but one thing that pops up into my brain, just

00:03:55.400 | because you're one couple doesn't mean you think with one brain, right?

00:03:59.920 | So, we've said yes, we've said I do, but that doesn't mean that our ideas and our

00:04:07.480 | concepts around money are the same.

00:04:09.520 | And I know that's definitely not the case with my wife and I.

00:04:12.120 | And as we got married, we didn't have a lot of those conversations beforehand.

00:04:16.680 | We didn't have a lot of those discussions on our finances, where we wanted to go,

00:04:22.440 | our dreams, our goals, things like that beforehand.

00:04:25.400 | But those definitely came up well after the fact, after we were married and we

00:04:29.840 | realized that we definitely had quite a bit of differences with regard to our

00:04:35.320 | finances and our goals and things like that.

00:04:38.200 | And only through conversation were we able to improve that.

00:04:42.160 | And I've definitely seen that through a lot of the couples that I've

00:04:44.320 | interviewed on the show too.

00:04:45.600 | It's just because you are one couple doesn't mean you share one brain, for sure.

00:04:51.000 | And, you know, outside of that, I would say, you know, another maybe common

00:04:55.200 | misconception is that marriage is like an action and that it happens on that day.

00:05:01.040 | You're done, right?

00:05:01.840 | You know, we've got married.

00:05:02.760 | We crossed the aisle and said, I do, but it's really a verb.

00:05:06.440 | It's action-based.

00:05:07.520 | It's one of those things that requires consistent work and it evolves over time.

00:05:14.880 | And you need to be ready for that change.

00:05:16.760 | And if you're stagnant and you say, Hey, this is how we've always done it.

00:05:20.680 | This is who I am.

00:05:21.800 | That's when I've seen relationships fall apart.

00:05:25.280 | And I even see that with my relationship with my wife, where it's one of those

00:05:28.800 | things, if I am just saying, Hey, this is how we've always done it, you know, deal

00:05:34.040 | with it, that's when things don't go well.

00:05:36.080 | So those are some of the common misconceptions that I've seen.

00:05:38.760 | Yeah.

00:05:39.040 | I think to your first one, it's interesting how I don't think anyone

00:05:43.360 | believes that their spouse and them have to have the same favorite food, right?

00:05:46.960 | They have to have the same like favorite vacation style.

00:05:50.280 | And you make that work.

00:05:51.280 | You go on, my wife and I went on a trip and you know, maybe one day I want to go

00:05:54.560 | see something crazy that she doesn't.

00:05:56.080 | So she comes along one day, she wants to do something.

00:05:58.520 | I do that.

00:05:59.200 | And that's totally fine.

00:06:00.920 | Is that harder with money?

00:06:02.320 | Is there, are there ways to have a kind of approach to money that meets two

00:06:07.920 | different attitudes or two different styles, or do you really need to try to

00:06:11.560 | merge them and find one way to manage your money together?

00:06:14.080 | I think a lot of it just comes from a few things, understanding where

00:06:19.640 | your spouse comes from with money.

00:06:21.720 | We are, we are who we are today based on our history.

00:06:25.320 | And that sometimes comes from our upbringing.

00:06:27.400 | That comes from how our parents raised us.

00:06:29.640 | So, well, my parents raised me in a different way than my wife did.

00:06:33.760 | Other couples, the same thing, but some of those realizations don't come up until

00:06:38.200 | later on when there's some real strife or so maybe money fights that are

00:06:42.320 | happening that pop up, well, I've always thought this way and you think this way.

00:06:46.680 | That's wrong.

00:06:47.520 | You know, I, I know that this is right.

00:06:49.280 | This is wrong.

00:06:49.840 | It's not wrong.

00:06:51.520 | It's just different.

00:06:52.920 | And for me, for a while in our relationship, I had that hardheaded

00:06:56.480 | mentality of, Hey, I've been reading about money.

00:06:59.880 | I know money stuff.

00:07:01.440 | This is correct.

00:07:02.600 | And what you're thinking of is wrong, but really it's not wrong.

00:07:05.960 | It's just a different way of thinking.

00:07:07.480 | And so until I took my stubborn hat off and put my empathy shoes on, I didn't

00:07:13.600 | really take the time to understand her position, but when I did that, then I

00:07:18.320 | could really take her position and understand where she's coming from.

00:07:21.880 | And I know that helps out a lot of couples when you're able to do that,

00:07:24.680 | when you're able to think in terms of their feelings and their situation

00:07:29.080 | and maybe where they're coming from.

00:07:30.240 | So a good example of this is at the beginning of our relationship, Nicole

00:07:34.400 | and I, I got really geeked about paying off our debt, I got really

00:07:37.880 | excited about becoming debt-free.

00:07:39.440 | I thought that idea was really cool.

00:07:40.720 | We had $50,000 of debt, you know, 30,000 student loans and 20,000 car loan.

00:07:45.480 | And I'm like, I think it would be really great to be debt-free by the

00:07:49.240 | time our daughter comes into the world.

00:07:51.440 | We learned that we were going to be parents talking about becoming parents.

00:07:54.240 | And I said, that's a way that I can be a good father and protect this

00:07:57.640 | family that's going to be moving forward.

00:07:59.560 | So I said, hey, why don't we, you know, get rid of your luxury car and maybe

00:08:05.000 | spend a lot less money and then we'll pay off $50,000 in debt in one year.

00:08:09.280 | What do you think of that idea?

00:08:10.280 | And she immediately said, are you crazy?

00:08:13.760 | That sounds horrible.

00:08:14.920 | That sounds like deprivation.

00:08:16.160 | And it sounds like you want me to get rid of my car.

00:08:17.840 | What was that?

00:08:18.320 | And then she just sort of like walked out of the room and I'm like, wait, no, no,

00:08:20.760 | no, no, this is a fantastic plan.

00:08:22.120 | Where are you going?

00:08:22.800 | Why, why?

00:08:23.880 | And what I realized is that I wasn't speaking her language at all.

00:08:27.920 | Really, I was speaking in numbers and facts and figures and she

00:08:32.520 | didn't really talk that language.

00:08:33.880 | And so after I, you know, picked myself back up and had some more

00:08:37.280 | conversations with her, I started to understand more of her motivation.

00:08:41.520 | What, what, what, what is her motivation?

00:08:43.160 | Well, she's excited about being a mother too.

00:08:45.720 | And she really doesn't dig the job that she's in.

00:08:48.440 | Okay.

00:08:49.560 | This is an opportunity for us to look at ways that we can both win.

00:08:52.480 | I would love this debt-free life.

00:08:54.280 | And you'd eventually like to go from maybe full-time working at a job you

00:08:57.920 | don't really like to maybe part-time or eventually full-time stay-at-home mom.

00:09:02.120 | And that's where we started to connect a little bit.

00:09:04.440 | I talked more of the number side of things originally.

00:09:07.240 | And then I started talking more of the emotional benefits of what you can do

00:09:11.200 | when you work together in your finances.

00:09:13.160 | So I think just sort of realigning your language can help quite a bit

00:09:17.520 | when it comes to marriage and money.

00:09:19.680 | And I've definitely learned that and failed at it quite a few

00:09:22.320 | times in our 11-year marriage.

00:09:24.560 | Yeah, but you're still married 11 years later.

00:09:26.520 | We still are.

00:09:27.120 | Yes.

00:09:27.600 | Got that going for me.

00:09:28.480 | Are there questions that you would tell people to start asking whether they're

00:09:33.720 | early in a relationship or, or haven't really gone deep that you think can kind

00:09:37.520 | of bring out some of these, you know, potential issues in the future that

00:09:41.560 | would let them get on the same page?

00:09:43.240 | Yeah.

00:09:43.760 | You know, I've talked about that with couples who are dating or maybe in that

00:09:47.520 | sort of engagement phase where it's like, Hey, you don't want to ruin the romance

00:09:51.480 | by, you know, talking numbers and figures all the time, but to my failure point,

00:09:55.440 | why don't we talk more about goals and aspirations and desires for the future?

00:10:00.120 | And with that, then comes the money.

00:10:02.120 | So for example, a big one, do we want to have kids?

00:10:04.800 | Is this something you were interested in?

00:10:06.240 | Because obviously there's a financial ramification to that, but there's also

00:10:09.920 | just sort of a life partner goal with that.

00:10:12.480 | That's a big one.

00:10:13.440 | And if we have trouble having kids, would you be open to

00:10:18.040 | something like IVF or adoption?

00:10:20.680 | These are important topics because if that comes up later on in your

00:10:24.960 | relationship and you didn't have some sort of pre-conversation about it,

00:10:28.720 | that can be a really tough point.

00:10:30.520 | How about little things like, Hey, what do you make as a salary?

00:10:34.280 | What, what kind of debt do you have?

00:10:35.960 | Like sort of opening up, you know, taking, taking the blinds down and

00:10:39.080 | saying, Hey, here's who I am.

00:10:40.400 | Here's what you're marrying.

00:10:41.600 | Here's what you're going into this relationship because what's mine is

00:10:45.520 | going to be yours, even the debt stuff, you know, so having some of those

00:10:49.000 | conversations beforehand can kind of help you to understand what you're getting into.

00:10:53.560 | So there's not a lot of surprise.

00:10:55.120 | I wish that I was a little bit more open and honest with my wife as I came into,

00:11:00.440 | you know, our relationship and talking about some of these bigger things.

00:11:02.880 | We did have some important conversations through some premarital counseling, but

00:11:06.400 | it was less on the financial side and, and more just sort of on the, you know,

00:11:11.040 | religious and life partner kind of side.

00:11:13.640 | So I wish we would have opened up a little bit more with regard to our finances.

00:11:17.200 | But those are some of the questions that help a lot of couples out there.

00:11:20.720 | And that, that I've heard about when I've talked about on the show as well.

00:11:23.480 | It's amazing how everyone seems to know that we don't talk a lot

00:11:27.560 | about money in our society, but even in relationships, right.

00:11:30.360 | It's, it takes so long before it comes up.

00:11:32.800 | Yeah.

00:11:33.160 | If someone's listening to this and, and they've already kind of handled like

00:11:36.160 | chapter one, those questions you just mentioned, they're married, you know,

00:11:38.760 | they know how much their spouse makes and they know how much they've saved.

00:11:41.680 | Are there other big questions that you think come up down the road that

00:11:44.800 | are opportunities to address earlier?

00:11:47.200 | Yeah.

00:11:47.960 | You know, I would say a lot of it, a lot of the things that I think would be

00:11:51.560 | helpful for couples too, is regarding your career or your aspirations, things like that.

00:11:55.680 | Are you in a career?

00:11:57.440 | Are you on a path towards being a business owner that you enjoy?

00:12:01.520 | Or where do you see yourself going later on?

00:12:04.080 | Because maybe those expectations of what you as the, the partner are going to get

00:12:09.760 | into because you're married to this person, you need to know what you're going to get into.

00:12:14.400 | So having those relationship conversations and getting an understanding of those

00:12:17.600 | goals and aspirations beforehand really help you to know where you're going to be

00:12:20.920 | going as a couple, because those can be difficult, you know, if you're saying,

00:12:24.920 | Hey, I'm already working at a job that I really dislike, and I'm interested

00:12:28.880 | in becoming a full-time photographer.

00:12:30.800 | Okay.

00:12:31.160 | That's an important thing to talk about because as you move forward, those are

00:12:35.480 | going to be some big transition points.

00:12:37.240 | Maybe there'll be a point where you're fully funding the relationship and taking

00:12:41.240 | care of the healthcare and the income while that person's making a transition

00:12:45.160 | into entrepreneurship, that's going to be a point that's going to require a lot

00:12:48.640 | of, you know, partnership and communication.

00:12:51.440 | So having some understanding around those career aspirations, those goals, and getting

00:12:56.920 | an understanding about that beforehand can definitely help.

00:12:59.320 | Yeah.

00:13:00.680 | I hate to treat a relationship like business, but one of the things that I

00:13:04.000 | found was very interesting as a conversation was, you know, if this thing

00:13:08.840 | goes well financially, meaning if we end up making a lot more money than we think

00:13:13.000 | we will, what do we want to do with that?

00:13:14.760 | How would that change our lives?

00:13:16.280 | And the other side of it, if we end up not doing well financially, if we have

00:13:20.960 | problems, are we willing to cut housing?

00:13:23.560 | Are we willing to work more hours?

00:13:25.320 | What kind of life do we want to live?

00:13:26.880 | And I think the closer you can get to being aligned on not necessarily wanting

00:13:32.200 | to do the same things, but understanding each person and their motivations, I

00:13:35.800 | think it can really, really help.

00:13:36.960 | Yeah, and I think making space and time for those conversations is important

00:13:41.920 | because as you get married, as you know, Chris, when you get married and then you

00:13:46.640 | have kids and you've got the job, you've got everything, your time together, your

00:13:51.040 | time to communicate becomes smaller.

00:13:53.360 | So putting marriage first and making that a priority to always

00:13:58.960 | set aside time to connect.

00:14:00.560 | This is our time to talk about the important things because when that goes

00:14:03.560 | away, that's when the big fights start happening because people don't feel like

00:14:06.840 | they are being heard.

00:14:08.000 | They don't feel like their buckets are being filled and they take it out on the

00:14:13.120 | other spouse and that's definitely happened in our relationship for sure.

00:14:16.360 | It seems like with every business, you get to a certain size and

00:14:22.160 | the cracks start to emerge.

00:14:23.960 | Things that you used to do in a day are taking a week and you have too many

00:14:28.080 | manual processes and there's no one source of truth.

00:14:31.440 | If this is you, you should know these three numbers, 37,000, 25, 1.

00:14:37.240 | 37,000.

00:14:38.640 | That's the number of businesses which have upgraded to NetSuite by Oracle and

00:14:42.440 | I'm excited to partner with them for this episode.

00:14:44.520 | NetSuite is the number one cloud financial system, streamlining accounting,

00:14:48.640 | financial management, inventory, HR, and more.

00:14:51.360 | 25.

00:14:52.600 | NetSuite turns 25 this year.

00:14:54.760 | That's 25 years of helping businesses do more with less, close their books in

00:14:59.600 | days, not weeks, and drive down costs.

00:15:02.320 | And one, because your business is one of a kind, so you get a customized solution

00:15:07.720 | for all your KPIs in one efficient system with one source of truth.

00:15:12.360 | Manage risk, get reliable forecasts, and improve margins.

00:15:16.280 | Everything you need to grow all in one place, which I can tell you from all the

00:15:20.640 | companies I've run, makes everything so much better.

00:15:23.440 | So right now, download NetSuite's popular KPI checklist, designed to give you

00:15:28.680 | consistently excellent performance, absolutely free, at allthehacks.com/netsuite.

00:15:35.240 | That's allthehacks.com/netsuite to get your own KPI checklist.

00:15:39.960 | Allthehacks.com/netsuite, N-E-T-S-U-I-T-E.

00:15:45.440 | There is nothing I love more than learning that something I enjoy is

00:15:50.800 | actually so good for you, and nothing showcases that better than Pu-erh tea.

00:15:55.280 | It has so many health benefits, and I think one of the best and easiest ways

00:15:58.960 | to consume it is from our sponsor today, Peak Tea.

00:16:01.960 | Peak's Pu-erh teas are all cold extracted using only wild harvested leaves from

00:16:07.040 | 250-year-old tea trees, rich in minerals, theraflavins, and catechins.

00:16:12.480 | Then everything is triple toxin screened for pesticides, heavy minerals, and toxic

00:16:17.720 | mold commonly found in plants.

00:16:19.600 | And Peak's products are so easy and zero prep, because they're all in

00:16:24.080 | pre-measured quantities that dissolve in cold or hot water in seconds,

00:16:28.320 | and are so travel friendly.

00:16:30.080 | They have so many products, but lately I've been alternating between the green

00:16:34.320 | Pu-erh for mental clarity and energy, and the black Pu-erh, which helps kickstart

00:16:39.040 | digestion and metabolism with a rich, earthy flavor that is so good, and

00:16:43.800 | probably one of my favorite things to drink.

00:16:45.800 | And if you need another reason, search for all the amazing research-backed

00:16:49.440 | benefits of polyphenols for your gut microbiome, heart, blood sugar, and more,

00:16:53.720 | and then be happy that Pu-erh is more concentrated in polyphenols

00:16:57.160 | than all other teas in the world.

00:16:59.000 | But you don't even have to take my word, or do any research, because Peak

00:17:02.560 | offers free US shipping, free returns, and a money-backed guarantee.

00:17:06.360 | And for a limited time, you can get up to 15% off and a free quiver with 12

00:17:11.960 | tea samples at my link at allthehacks.com/peak, that's P-I-Q-U-E.

00:17:18.440 | So check them out today at allthehacks.com/peak, P-I-Q-U-E.

00:17:23.800 | I got a lot of satisfaction out of trying to categorize all of our spending to

00:17:29.720 | understand how much we're spending.

00:17:31.720 | And for me, it was about figuring out what we're saving and understanding the

00:17:36.240 | impact that'll have on our future.

00:17:37.680 | For my wife, it was a monotonous task of going through Mint and recategorizing

00:17:42.360 | their terrible descriptions, you know, saying, "No, this thing at a gas

00:17:45.320 | station was actually a vacation," and that didn't go well.

00:17:48.600 | But as we talked about why we were doing it, what the purpose was, that helped.

00:17:53.000 | Now we have a child and time is less, you know, abundant.

00:17:58.160 | Are there times of the week, month, year that you think are good to have these

00:18:03.280 | conversations?

00:18:03.960 | Are there ways to make them more fun?

00:18:05.760 | I feel like it almost never is the right time to talk about money.

00:18:09.040 | Yeah, I hear you.

00:18:09.920 | Yeah, in the beginning of our relationship, we set up something.

00:18:12.840 | And when I say "we," it was me, just like you.

00:18:14.480 | I was grabbing the mint and being the money nerd, saying, "Hey, let's have a

00:18:18.360 | budget party.

00:18:19.320 | Let's sit down and review the budget."

00:18:21.560 | I threw the word "party" on it so it sounded like a little bit more fun, and

00:18:24.480 | maybe she'd show up.

00:18:25.360 | I brought some, like, wine and pizza, and that kind of helped a little bit.

00:18:28.960 | Just put a little marketing spin on it.

00:18:30.360 | And it worked because she showed up.

00:18:32.880 | But as time rolled on, our lives changed.

00:18:36.080 | We had to get a little bit more inventive with this thing in order to keep that

00:18:39.200 | connection.

00:18:39.800 | So when we had little kids, it was like, "Okay, well, we need to connect.

00:18:44.000 | It's important to do that.

00:18:45.080 | Let's do that after they go to bed so we have some time to speak."

00:18:48.960 | And then as the kids got a little older, we said, "Okay, well, they're clawing

00:18:52.480 | at our legs.

00:18:53.040 | Why don't we take this to, like, a play place?"

00:18:55.000 | So we would go to, like, a place where the kids could run around, go down the

00:18:58.520 | slides, and jump down while we were planning our lives and having time

00:19:02.200 | together or drinking a coffee.

00:19:03.400 | And we even took our budget party to, like, a restaurant one time where we

00:19:08.000 | said, "Hey, let's have dinner while we go over the numbers and have the receipts

00:19:12.000 | on the table," and everybody looked at us kind of funny.

00:19:14.000 | But we were planning our lives, and we were figuring things out together, and

00:19:17.120 | we didn't care.

00:19:17.600 | So it's just kind of being inventive and making it a good time because, yeah,

00:19:23.320 | when you talk about it like that, just saying, "Hey, let's stare at a

00:19:25.320 | spreadsheet and talk about numbers," my wife just, you know, glazes over and is

00:19:29.600 | like, "Dude, can we do anything else?"

00:19:31.360 | But if you add some fun into it and also maybe don't just always talk about the

00:19:37.320 | numbers.

00:19:37.640 | We're talking about, "Hey, what's going on this month?

00:19:39.880 | What activities do we have going on with the kids?

00:19:42.320 | Is there a wedding coming up?

00:19:43.960 | Is there birthday parties that are coming up?

00:19:45.760 | What do we have going on this month that's going to be, you know, taking over

00:19:49.520 | or that we need to schedule out?"

00:19:51.400 | And then, and the back end of it, "How are we pursuing those goals, those things

00:19:56.040 | that we've always talked about being excited about, whether it's a vacation or

00:20:00.160 | hitting some financial goals like, you know, paying off debt or anything like

00:20:03.520 | that?

00:20:03.800 | How are we doing on those goals that help us to give us more freedom and more fun

00:20:08.400 | today?"

00:20:08.760 | So having a little fun with it, you know, and getting inventive has helped us a

00:20:13.680 | lot.

00:20:13.920 | I think having that list of shared and independent goals is really, really

00:20:19.720 | valuable.

00:20:20.200 | I know there are things I wanted to do, like start this podcast that was going to

00:20:24.120 | take up extra time and for a while take up extra cost.

00:20:27.640 | And then there are things we wanted to do like vacations.

00:20:29.880 | And so I think starting off conversations, getting aligned on where you want to go,

00:20:34.640 | why you want to go there and understanding it is really valuable.

00:20:37.480 | Absolutely.

00:20:38.200 | I think one of the things that I find as a frustration, or I guess maybe more

00:20:42.680 | well put, my wife finds as a frustration, is I treat things very logically, right?

00:20:47.440 | I'm like, "Well, of course it makes sense to do this thing because the rate of

00:20:52.520 | return on this thing is better.

00:20:54.160 | And so we should of course do this."

00:20:56.520 | And so that taken to its extreme can be a frustrating conversation.

00:21:00.800 | One thing that I know you've talked a lot about is how you guys got a mortgage and

00:21:06.160 | paid it off in about five years.

00:21:08.120 | And I know a lot of people give the financial advice and I've probably given

00:21:12.560 | it to people as well, which is, "Well, the market return over the long run is

00:21:15.640 | better than mortgage rates."

00:21:16.760 | So I don't know how I could possibly make that decision.

00:21:20.360 | For you, it wasn't about just always being financially logical and doing the

00:21:24.400 | economic best choice.

00:21:25.800 | How did you guys talk about making that decision?

00:21:29.000 | And then ultimately also, how did you do it?

00:21:30.800 | Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:21:32.080 | So in the beginning, it was one of those things.

00:21:34.480 | I had bought a house the first time around in 2004, and I feel like I did it

00:21:41.080 | the wrong way.

00:21:41.720 | I put too little down and got into a situation where I didn't really

00:21:47.040 | understand that there were costs outside of the mortgage, like bills and fixing

00:21:52.440 | the place and closing costs, all sorts of stuff that I didn't even plan on.

00:21:56.600 | Over time, I ended up taking a pay cut at my job in order to move to a different

00:22:01.840 | position because the first position was a little too stressful for me.

00:22:04.720 | I looked at maybe this house and the costs that are associated with it,

00:22:08.960 | taking up about 50% of my income.

00:22:10.840 | I just felt like owned by the house instead of owning the house.

00:22:14.320 | And so I hated that.

00:22:16.160 | I hated that position.

00:22:17.040 | I ended up getting roommates to help me pay the mortgage eventually, which was an

00:22:20.760 | old version of house hacking, I guess, to help me out there.

00:22:23.680 | But even with that, the Great Recession came to Metro Detroit and hit us really

00:22:29.360 | hard, so there was a point in time, I think it was around 2008, 2009, that my

00:22:33.000 | $200,000 house that I bought was now valued at $100,000.

00:22:36.760 | So not only was the cost of it just consuming me, but the asset that I

00:22:42.280 | purchased was just a dud.

00:22:44.000 | And I just felt like, "Man, is this really how it's supposed to go?"

00:22:48.120 | Eventually sold the house about 10 years later for pretty much break even.

00:22:53.320 | So when my wife was like, "Hey, let's get a bigger house and a nicer

00:22:57.200 | neighborhood, better schools," I'm like, "I am down, but I do not want to have a

00:23:02.720 | mortgage.

00:23:03.200 | I do not want to have something that I feel like is on my back, that I'm going to

00:23:07.760 | have to keep paying for it.

00:23:08.880 | I'm going to have to keep working at this job that I don't really like that much in

00:23:12.840 | order to pay a mortgage that I'm not really that excited about."

00:23:15.640 | And so I said, "Hey, we'll get the house, but let's keep aggressively saving and

00:23:20.280 | we'll pay it off in five years."

00:23:21.800 | And she said, "Cool, that's fine.

00:23:23.040 | Let's do that."

00:23:23.600 | So what we did is essentially just lived on half and kept on making massive

00:23:29.080 | principal payments each month.

00:23:31.160 | Anytime we got new money that came in, whether it was a tax refund or a bonus or

00:23:37.120 | selling stuff on Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist, we would throw it at the

00:23:42.680 | principal.

00:23:43.120 | And a little bit less than four years later, we were mortgage-free.

00:23:47.800 | And with that freedom, we were able to make some changes in our lives.

00:23:53.200 | We were able to travel a bit more.

00:23:54.960 | We were able to make some career choice changes that I eventually made.

00:23:59.080 | And that initial conversation with Nicole, to your point, it wasn't easy, but I

00:24:04.680 | think she got it.

00:24:05.480 | She understood.

00:24:06.640 | I mean, she understood my motivation around home ownership.

00:24:09.360 | She understood my interest in not having a payment that would be hanging over my

00:24:15.680 | head for so long.

00:24:17.040 | And to your point on investing, we did both.

00:24:19.360 | We invested and we paid off the mortgage.

00:24:21.560 | We maxed out our retirement during the time we were paying off our mortgage.

00:24:27.200 | And so we did both.

00:24:28.560 | And I understand sometimes it's a either/or kind of thing.

00:24:31.560 | We saw this as an and opportunity, invest and pay off the mortgage.

00:24:34.880 | And now we're in a position where we have enough in our retirement funds that we

00:24:39.040 | feel like we can let that coast as well as having a paid off house.

00:24:42.080 | So life's good right now.

00:24:43.240 | Yeah.

00:24:44.680 | So it sounds like that was a great outcome and you guys got on the same page easily.

00:24:49.640 | I know you've talked in the past about things that you haven't necessarily gotten

00:24:52.200 | on the same page.

00:24:53.000 | Are there things that either you or people you talk to are common sources of

00:24:57.760 | frustration or arguments about money and ideas on how to tackle them?

00:25:01.760 | Yeah.

00:25:02.200 | I mean, I can tell you one that finishes that story.

00:25:05.280 | It's right around the time we paid off the mortgage, I got really excited about

00:25:11.240 | something else called financial independence and forgot to tell my wife about it.

00:25:16.160 | So when we paid off the house, I said, OK, now new goal, we're going to buy rental

00:25:22.000 | properties and we're going to keep saving half of our income.

00:25:25.200 | And that way we can keep buying rental properties until I'm able to kind of

00:25:28.680 | leave my nine to five and just own rental properties.

00:25:32.280 | And that's what we're going to do.

00:25:32.840 | It's our financial independence plan.

00:25:34.120 | And she said, well, we've been saving so much for so long.

00:25:38.320 | Can we enjoy life a little bit and, you know, vacation and travel?

00:25:43.440 | And maybe I can upgrade this house that we've been living for a while.

00:25:46.560 | And I was so frustrated with my career at that point in life that and the fact that

00:25:52.120 | we had such little kids and I sort of lost it, man.

00:25:54.320 | I lost it in a bad way.

00:25:56.240 | I lost it and was very frustrated that my wife and I weren't seeing eye to eye on

00:26:01.480 | this this idea.

00:26:03.000 | And we had a really big glow up.

00:26:05.600 | We had a really big volcano type fight that she describes it as.

00:26:08.640 | It was one of those things where we just were not seeing eye to eye on what to do

00:26:13.960 | with this money.

00:26:14.640 | We were in a very well off way.

00:26:16.600 | And, you know, obviously people can fight when they don't have enough money and then

00:26:19.640 | people can fight when they have enough money.

00:26:21.400 | And we were fighting when we had a blessing of money coming in.

00:26:24.640 | We just did not agree on what to do with it.

00:26:27.440 | So what we ended up doing is going to marriage counseling.

00:26:31.520 | And it was one of those things that at the point I was like, man, I feel like I am

00:26:37.240 | failing this marriage.

00:26:38.120 | I feel like going to marriage counseling means that you are failing.

00:26:41.200 | And. Unfortunately, I was wrong, or fortunately, I was wrong, for that matter, I

00:26:46.920 | went to my first session with with Nicole and found out that this wasn't something to

00:26:52.400 | be sad about.

00:26:53.400 | It was something that was providing us some coaching on actually how to speak better to

00:26:58.720 | each other, how to communicate better as a couple.

00:27:01.080 | We likened it to almost like a physical trainer.

00:27:03.640 | You know, if you want to you want to get stronger, you want to be healthier, you can

00:27:07.920 | outsource that to somebody who's a great third party coach that can show you how.

00:27:11.560 | And that's what our counselor did for us.

00:27:13.000 | They helped us to communicate better.

00:27:15.240 | And one thing that our counselor did for me was to allow me to empathize with my wife's

00:27:20.840 | situation a bit more.

00:27:21.840 | Hey, man, she was staying home as a stay at home mom and was taking care of two little

00:27:28.080 | kids for a really long time and wanted a little bit more joy and fun in her life.

00:27:33.720 | And her husband now wants to use all that extra money for more hard charging savings.

00:27:40.320 | And for her, that was just like, hey, come on, let's let our feet off the gas and have a

00:27:44.040 | little bit more fun and learning a little bit more during counseling about how she grew

00:27:48.560 | up. You know, she grew up with a single mom and an apartment.

00:27:52.040 | And for her, success meant a nice home and fun and excitement and vacations.

00:27:58.440 | And now that we have the money, we can't even do that.

00:28:00.520 | So we found some middle ground through our counseling sessions and through some

00:28:06.240 | conversations for us to both kind of realize some of our dreams and goals.

00:28:11.840 | And again, sometimes that takes a third party to get there.

00:28:14.800 | And for us, it did.

00:28:15.640 | Any other interesting lessons or tactics that you learned through that process that were

00:28:22.120 | helpful? Yeah, absolutely.

00:28:23.720 | I would say that one thing that we like to do during that time frame was let our kids

00:28:28.800 | know what was going on, because marriage isn't always easy.

00:28:33.680 | There are ups, there are downs.

00:28:36.240 | And letting our kids know that we were working hard to have a good relationship.

00:28:43.280 | And sometimes that means that you need some help.

00:28:46.000 | And so every time we went to our sessions, we would let our kids know.

00:28:49.400 | We would say, hey, mommy and daddy are working on our relationship.

00:28:52.680 | We're working on being able to communicate better with each other.

00:28:56.160 | And we are putting in the work and we want you to know that.

00:29:00.040 | And so we wanted our kids to see that.

00:29:02.000 | We wanted them to know that marriage takes work.

00:29:04.560 | And just like any relationships that they have or will have in the future, if you care

00:29:09.080 | about it enough, you really have to put in the effort.

00:29:12.080 | So that was one thing that we definitely let our kids know about.

00:29:15.000 | Yeah, that's fascinating.

00:29:17.400 | My daughter's just turned one.

00:29:19.400 | So I'm in that struggle that I can't really communicate with her in the way I want to.

00:29:24.520 | But I'm really excited to do that.

00:29:26.240 | And I definitely in a few minutes want to jump into some of the things you're doing

00:29:30.280 | with your kids and money.

00:29:31.280 | But before that, something I often hear people talk about is the topic of combining finances.

00:29:36.760 | And it's something that I think can go in a lot of directions and people can do it

00:29:40.600 | different ways. Are you of the school of thought that there's a best way?

00:29:44.840 | Or how should couples whose finances maybe aren't combined and are thinking about it,

00:29:49.760 | think about it?

00:29:50.680 | Yeah, I definitely think this is an individual choice in your relationship.

00:29:55.200 | I don't think there's one right way.

00:29:57.120 | That being said, Nicole and I chose to combine our finances at the beginning of our

00:30:00.600 | relationship. We've looked back on it and being like, why did we do that?

00:30:03.680 | You know, I think it was just sort of like, that's how our parents did it or that's how

00:30:06.480 | we understood it to be.

00:30:07.720 | But yeah, there's multiple ways you can slice it.

00:30:09.720 | You can do completely combined like Nicole and I do, or you can do something like yours,

00:30:15.040 | mine and ours.

00:30:15.960 | So you've got maybe their funds that they like to spend on, yours that you like to spend

00:30:20.320 | on. And then there's a collection of, hey, here are the things we'd like to spend on as

00:30:23.600 | a family. And then there's completely separate.

00:30:25.760 | And all of these work for different relationships in different ways.

00:30:29.800 | We found in through conversations with other people that when you add kids into the mix,

00:30:34.040 | that's when things can get a little bit more difficult.

00:30:36.320 | Right. If you're completely separate, then, you know, where do diapers go?

00:30:39.520 | Who pays for those? You know, is that part of yours or mine or ours or daycare?

00:30:43.760 | Like, where does that go?

00:30:45.080 | So I like joint because I feel like it means like we are on a mission together.

00:30:50.720 | We're working on common goals.

00:30:53.560 | We're working as a team.

00:30:55.120 | But what we do is sort of like a little little compromise.

00:30:57.920 | It's not yours, mine and ours, but we do joint with individual budget line items because

00:31:02.640 | there are certain things that she really wants to have.

00:31:05.000 | Like she needs her haircuts.

00:31:06.200 | She needs her clothes. She needs her home decor.

00:31:08.840 | And these are all things that we have in our mint budget that are line itemed out.

00:31:13.000 | And she gets them no matter what.

00:31:14.400 | Oh, definitely one is the cleaning lady.

00:31:16.440 | I think I tried to I tried to frugal my way out of that.

00:31:19.720 | That did not go well.

00:31:20.680 | That was that was a that was a highly valued line item that that did not go well when I

00:31:25.840 | brought that up as something that maybe we should consider not having.

00:31:28.840 | But I've got the same thing.

00:31:29.800 | I've got some line items for my stuff, you know, like guys night out and other things like that.

00:31:33.760 | So I think, you know, it's all particular.

00:31:36.960 | It's all particular to the couple, I would say, maybe for second marriages.

00:31:40.600 | Maybe there is a little bit more hesitancy in combining everything together.

00:31:44.680 | And yeah, it all depends on your relationship.

00:31:46.800 | So I don't think there's one right way, but joint has worked for us.

00:31:50.280 | Yeah, a hybrid of joint that we do, and this really stemmed from I was in a job where I

00:31:57.840 | had a lot of expenses for work, I was taking trips, or if I was in a city, I might throw

00:32:02.320 | an event and put the event on my card.

00:32:04.760 | And so it became pretty stressful for my wife to see a credit card bill be like, "Hey, why

00:32:12.320 | did you spend $20,000?"

00:32:13.680 | I'm like, "No, no, no.

00:32:14.440 | Actually, it's like $18,000 of work expenses and $2,000 of non-work."

00:32:19.680 | But to her, she's like, "Well, I don't know.

00:32:21.480 | This is a bar.

00:32:22.160 | This is a flight.

00:32:22.840 | This is a hotel."

00:32:23.560 | And so we actually had a separate account and a separate credit card that I used for

00:32:28.320 | work stuff so that I could say, "Look, I'm going to put all this here."

00:32:30.760 | So it wasn't 100% joint because some things were work, but it was like reimbursable work

00:32:35.840 | versus if you have a business, I would highly recommend keeping that separate for both

00:32:40.880 | business tax reasons and other things.

00:32:42.880 | But sometimes if you're spending a lot of money for work and you don't have a corporate

00:32:46.480 | credit card, it can make sense to keep things separate just so people have an

00:32:50.160 | understanding of where things are going.

00:32:51.640 | And it's hard sometimes to monitor and get a sense of how much you're saving when the

00:32:57.480 | amount of money coming in and out is variable because of work expenses.

00:33:01.480 | So that was one thing that happened.

00:33:03.960 | And then gifts.

00:33:04.840 | So we still have our own separate credit cards that get paid out of a joint account just

00:33:08.840 | because I think we're the kinds of people that would see it and be like, "Oh, what's

00:33:11.960 | this?"

00:33:12.240 | Like, it just doesn't matter.

00:33:13.480 | There's small enough expenses that I think for us, it's better to just keep on our own.

00:33:18.360 | And then we created a kind of rule that we've evolved over time of if something's

00:33:23.000 | going to cost over X, and I think at one point in our relationship, it was $200.

00:33:27.080 | And I think now we're like, "Maybe we should upgrade it to $500."

00:33:29.960 | It's like, if it costs over that, let's talk about it.

00:33:32.760 | Otherwise, we trust each other and we don't have to say, "Should we do this?

00:33:36.200 | Can I go out to dinner with my friends?"

00:33:37.800 | And that kind of stuff.

00:33:38.840 | So that's what's worked for us.

00:33:39.960 | So joint checking, but separate credit cards and kind of a rule about spending.

00:33:44.440 | I like that a lot.

00:33:45.240 | Yeah.

00:33:45.400 | And I have a small business now.

00:33:47.320 | And so sometimes I'm able to lump some of the family expenses that used to be in our

00:33:52.040 | budget over there.

00:33:53.400 | You know, for example, we have family photos that I ended up putting on my website and

00:33:58.280 | things like that, but they end up being great family photos for the family.

00:34:00.840 | So these are things that I can now put on my business expenses.

00:34:04.280 | But to your point, I get to go to conferences.

00:34:07.480 | I get to buy dinners and things like that.

00:34:10.200 | And that can all be a business expense.

00:34:11.480 | So that could be sensitive if she doesn't have money for that type of stuff too.

00:34:15.960 | So just having open conversation about it has helped us.

00:34:18.600 | Yeah, absolutely.

00:34:20.920 | That's all money in marriage.

00:34:22.520 | But I know that, you know, you've talked a lot about things about marriage that aren't

00:34:26.040 | money-related and, you know, the show, "All the Hacks."

00:34:28.440 | Are there relationship, marriage kind of tricks, hacks, things that you've used to have a

00:34:33.320 | successful relationship or enjoy more time together?

00:34:37.240 | Yeah.

00:34:37.480 | You know, one thing that I have used in my relationship and I talk to a lot of other

00:34:42.120 | couples too, is just knowing my spouse's love language.

00:34:46.200 | You know, this comes from that book, "The Five Love Languages."

00:34:48.680 | And for Nicole, her language is time spent, for sure.

00:34:52.600 | And acts of service.

00:34:53.880 | So over the past few years, I, after, you know, consuming that book and understanding

00:35:00.040 | a little bit more about my wife's languages, I've started to create some habits for myself

00:35:05.720 | that allow for more time spent with her and more acts of service on the daily.

00:35:11.800 | So a couple of years ago, I'm like, "Okay, well, she loves coffee.

00:35:14.680 | What if I just bring her coffee in bed every day?"

00:35:17.080 | Because I always get up before her and she would probably really appreciate that.

00:35:21.080 | So over the past, I think, year and a half now, I bring her coffee in bed every day.

00:35:26.840 | And so I would say I'd give myself maybe like a B plus, A minus with this over the last

00:35:33.160 | year.

00:35:33.800 | Maybe 300 out of the 365 days I've done this and she loves it.

00:35:38.200 | It's just one of those things where I understand who she is.

00:35:41.080 | I understand her styles for love and it just sort of helps her to start her morning off

00:35:47.640 | on the right foot.

00:35:48.680 | So just kind of understanding a little bit about who your spouse is, how they like to

00:35:52.760 | be loved can go a long way.

00:35:55.000 | Because for a long while, I really like words of affirmation.

00:35:57.800 | When somebody says, "I'm doing a great job," or "She loves me," or whatever, that makes

00:36:01.000 | me feel great.

00:36:01.800 | So for a while, I would just project that on her.

00:36:03.800 | I'd be like, "Well, I'm going to write her a note and tell her how great she is," or

00:36:06.680 | "I'm going to verbally tell her."

00:36:09.000 | And for a while, it would just sort of like, it wouldn't connect.

00:36:13.000 | And I'd be like, "Well, what's wrong with her?

00:36:14.760 | I've given her all the love, but she doesn't feel it."

00:36:17.960 | But I was just sort of loving her in the wrong way until I learned that, "Hey, she really

00:36:22.760 | likes just time with you, man," or "She really likes when you help around the house or do

00:36:26.520 | nice things for her."

00:36:28.120 | So that took some trial and error on my part, but I'm still learning every day.

00:36:31.480 | So...

00:36:31.980 | Yeah.

00:36:33.800 | If I'm sick, I'm the kind of person that would love someone to take care of me.

00:36:37.320 | Come over and bring me a tea.

00:36:39.400 | And my wife's like, "When I'm sick, I want to be left alone."

00:36:42.200 | And so we had this whole challenge where I was like, "I want this."

00:36:45.160 | And she's like, "No, you don't need that."

00:36:46.600 | And then we kind of realized, "Oh, you want something different from me, and I can give

00:36:50.440 | it to you even though I don't want it."

00:36:52.200 | She's like, "But you also have to respect that I don't want it."

00:36:54.920 | Yeah, that's true.

00:36:55.800 | In some cases, it can actually be too much.

00:36:58.200 | Absolutely.

00:36:58.680 | So I actually have a running note on my phone that's just like subtle reminders.

00:37:06.040 | And anytime I notice something in our relationship, I just kind of write it down to make sure I'm

00:37:10.680 | like, "Hey, you know, Amy doesn't love this thing."

00:37:13.480 | Or, "This is an opportunity to improve."

00:37:15.800 | Or, "She really likes this."

00:37:17.240 | And one thing that I think has really helped in our relationship for me is, as I keep these

00:37:22.360 | notes, every now and then, I just kind of take a look at them.

00:37:25.720 | And I'm like, "Oh, you know, this thing, she really liked this thing.

00:37:29.080 | Let's pick that thing up after work and bring it home."

00:37:32.120 | Or, "Let's just take a pause and just tell her about a few things this week that she's

00:37:36.840 | done that I really appreciate."

00:37:37.880 | And these things are so easy for us to forget to do.

00:37:41.880 | And they're so easy.

00:37:43.880 | Like the act of pausing and just telling someone something meaningful they did or how they

00:37:48.760 | made you feel, it's such an easy thing that it's not fake.

00:37:52.600 | It's actually true.

00:37:53.240 | You actually feel it.

00:37:54.360 | Sometimes life gets so busy that you don't get to share it.

00:37:57.000 | So, I try to keep a log of things that I appreciate her, just little things that she might like,

00:38:02.920 | and check it regularly.

00:38:05.000 | I don't actually have a calendar event, but I probably should.

00:38:07.720 | So, I think it would add even more value if I did it more consistently.

00:38:11.000 | I think that's great.

00:38:11.880 | I've got a similar list.

00:38:12.840 | It's called Nicole's Happy List.

00:38:13.960 | It's right on my phone, the little notes app.

00:38:15.560 | And just kind of look at it every once in a while, add things onto it.

00:38:18.440 | But yeah, to your point, if you could just like how we talk about hacking or habit stacking,

00:38:22.440 | it's like, what can I do to make this a recurring thing that I do every day?

00:38:28.600 | Even if it's just 5, 10 minutes of an action that can go miles.

00:38:32.600 | One other thing that we didn't talk about, but you've talked about how it's kind of an

00:38:38.760 | impressive journey, right?

00:38:39.720 | You started at debt, paid it off in a year in advance of your child coming.

00:38:44.040 | Then you paid off a mortgage.

00:38:45.560 | And then in less than 10 years, you took that negative debt net worth all the way to a million

00:38:50.520 | dollars.

00:38:52.040 | What along that journey made that possible?

00:38:54.440 | Were you both on board with that kind of a goal and how did you get there so quickly?

00:38:59.080 | Yeah, it was a good story and a good successful journey.

00:39:03.080 | Honestly, obviously, a lot of it has to do with how much somebody can make.

00:39:06.760 | Because this story for somebody making $50,000 a year would be a lot more difficult.

00:39:11.640 | We, on average, during that 10 years, we were making $190,000.

00:39:15.240 | And that's two working professionals in the Metro Detroit area.

00:39:20.920 | And we worked hard and got progressive raises and things like that to help.

00:39:25.800 | But a lot of it was just sort of growing that gap between what we spend and what we save.

00:39:32.840 | And having that gap helped us to consistently do some great things.

00:39:38.520 | In the beginning, it was using that gap to pay off our debt.

00:39:42.280 | And then it was, "Hey, let's max out our retirement accounts so that we have a great

00:39:48.360 | investment balance as we grow into the years that we actually need this money."

00:39:52.440 | And then again, with that gap, we paid off our mortgage.

00:39:55.640 | And a lot of the things that are in our net worth right now are a half a million dollar

00:40:01.720 | home and about a half a million dollars of investments.

00:40:04.600 | And then obviously, cash and cars and things like that kind of round everything out.

00:40:08.680 | But that's really it.

00:40:09.960 | I mean, investing early and then paying off our home is what it is.

00:40:14.440 | So you think millionaire and it sounds flashy with cars and watches and all that stuff.

00:40:18.760 | It's like, it's boring stuff, man.

00:40:20.200 | It's like a big old traditional IRA and a Roth IRA, HSA accounts, things like that,

00:40:27.640 | and for home and some cash.

00:40:29.080 | And that's pretty much it.

00:40:30.360 | But a lot of it was from us just allowing ourselves to not inflate our lifestyle as

00:40:36.200 | we continue to grow our income.

00:40:37.480 | In the beginning, I was making $30,000 a year.

00:40:40.120 | And by the end of my career, I was making closer to $200,000 a year.

00:40:44.280 | But we consistently lived on half during that time period.

00:40:47.880 | And we were able to enjoy life.

00:40:50.600 | I mean, obviously, even half of a lot of money is still a lot of money.

00:40:54.280 | So we vacationed, had fun, but we were able to do some incredible things that really helped

00:40:59.960 | our family create some freedom for ourselves.

00:41:02.040 | It's been great.

00:41:03.880 | Any unusual things that you guys did to kind of grow that gap that, obviously, cutting

00:41:10.120 | things out of a budget or just being more frugal are regular things.

00:41:15.320 | But are there anything unusual in there?

00:41:17.320 | Honestly, none of it was too irregular.

00:41:19.320 | Just consistently investing during the period, having some automation with our investing.

00:41:24.120 | So it just happens without us even thinking about it.

00:41:26.920 | And over time, you look back and you say, "Wow, this balance is built up to an incredible

00:41:32.280 | amount by me just physically not doing anything, not touching it."

00:41:36.040 | I feel like success with investing is less about what you do and more about what you

00:41:40.280 | don't do.

00:41:41.000 | It's just like, if I didn't touch this thing and see the balance grow as it has, that's

00:41:46.360 | really where we've found most of our success, just investing in low-cost index funds and

00:41:51.000 | letting it ride.

00:41:51.960 | And we've had a very nice bull market over the past, whatever, eight to nine years that

00:41:55.880 | has helped us out quite a bit.

00:41:56.920 | But it's one of those things we're just going to stay on the roller coaster and see where

00:42:00.760 | it goes no matter what.

00:42:01.960 | So yeah, I love that.

00:42:03.960 | Sometimes the smallest changes make the biggest impact and Trade Coffee is a great addition

00:42:11.080 | to your new year routine.

00:42:12.680 | And I am so excited to be partnering with them today.

00:42:15.080 | Trade is a subscription service we've been using for over a year that sources the best

00:42:19.640 | coffee across the country and brings it straight to your doorstep.

00:42:23.800 | They've built relationships with over 50 local roasters so you can enjoy their craft from

00:42:28.520 | the comfort of your own home at a fraction of the cost of going out for coffee.

00:42:33.240 | There's multiple ways to experience coffee with Trade.

00:42:36.280 | Sign up for a subscription or try one of their starter packs today.

00:42:40.200 | It's been so convenient for us to have coffee just show up exactly when we need it.

00:42:44.680 | And over the past year, we've gotten so many great coffees from Trade.

00:42:48.600 | But this last bag of beans from Drink Coffee, Do Stuff in Tahoe, it's called Bark the Moon

00:42:54.040 | and it's so delicious.

00:42:55.880 | So jumpstart this year by signing up for a Trade subscription.

00:42:59.080 | Right now, Trade is offering a free bag with select subscription plans when you visit

00:43:03.800 | allthehacks.com/trade.

00:43:06.760 | That's allthehacks.com/trade for a free bag with select subscription plans.

00:43:12.200 | allthehacks.com/trade.

00:43:14.520 | Do you all remember episode 122 when I spoke to Chef David Chang about leveling up your

00:43:21.800 | cooking at home?

00:43:23.000 | If not, definitely go back and give it a listen.

00:43:25.320 | But one of his top hacks was using the microwave more.

00:43:28.760 | I'll admit, I was a skeptic at first, but after getting a full set of microwave cookware

00:43:33.800 | from Anyday, I'm a total convert and I'm excited to partner with them for this episode.

00:43:38.440 | Anyday is glass cookware specifically designed to make delicious food from scratch in the

00:43:43.480 | microwave.

00:43:44.360 | And honestly, using it feels like a kitchen cheat code because it speeds up and simplifies

00:43:49.480 | the process so much.

00:43:51.160 | The cookware is 100% plastic free and you can cook, serve, store, and reheat all in

00:43:56.840 | the same dish that happens to be dishwasher, freezer, and oven safe too.

00:44:01.400 | And if you need a recipe suggestion to kick off your Anyday adventure, I highly recommend

00:44:06.120 | David Chang's Salmon Rice.

00:44:07.720 | It is so good.

00:44:09.000 | And if you haven't checked out the Matte Black IO Collection they launched last year, you

00:44:14.600 | have to check it out.

00:44:16.040 | So to get 15% off our new favorite cookware, go to allthehacks.com/anyday.

00:44:22.760 | Again, that's allthehacks.com/anyday for 15% off.

00:44:27.800 | I just want to thank you, Quick, for listening to and supporting the show.

00:44:33.240 | Your support is what keeps this show going.

00:44:36.040 | To get all of the URLs, codes, deals, and discounts from our partners, you can go to

00:44:41.240 | allthehacks.com/deals.

00:44:44.120 | So please consider supporting those who support us.

00:44:47.160 | So we haven't talked about kids much, but you have two kids.

00:44:49.880 | I have one kid.

00:44:51.080 | I haven't even thought much about children and money.

00:44:54.040 | But you know, one of the stats that I think everyone kind of really rubs into your head

00:44:58.600 | is it costs about $200,000 to have a kid.

00:45:01.400 | It costs a million dollars to have a kid.

00:45:03.080 | I've seen everything.

00:45:04.280 | I've never seen anything that's lower than that.

00:45:06.360 | No one ever says, "Oh, no, no, it's actually only a hundred dollars."

00:45:09.160 | Yeah, right.

00:45:10.200 | So it's very clear that kids cost money.

00:45:12.360 | How do you feel about these numbers?

00:45:13.880 | As someone who's put a lot of time into saving, are they real?

00:45:18.200 | Are there ways to improve them?

00:45:20.040 | How do you think about it?

00:45:21.080 | Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't doubt that.

00:45:23.160 | I think I've seen the majority of the statistics I've seen is around $200,000, something like

00:45:27.080 | that, $200,000, $250,000.

00:45:28.600 | I believe it.

00:45:29.240 | I believe it.

00:45:29.800 | Yeah, they got to eat.

00:45:30.840 | They got to go to school.

00:45:32.120 | They have to have clothes.

00:45:33.720 | You know, it's all that important stuff that needs to happen from zero to 18 years.

00:45:37.480 | But then college isn't even included that.

00:45:39.400 | And I think our in-state public university, by the time our kids go, is going to be about

00:45:45.880 | $200,000 for four years as well.

00:45:48.360 | So that's $400,000 because I've got two kids.

00:45:50.520 | And that's a crazy cost.

00:45:51.960 | But I mean, would I do it any differently?

00:45:55.080 | No, I love them.

00:45:56.040 | I love them.

00:45:56.440 | They're worth every penny.

00:45:57.800 | And I mean, talk about coming to your point on mathematical decisions.

00:46:02.600 | If I was thinking about math all the time, then I definitely wouldn't have had children.

00:46:08.840 | But it is hard to make an economic decision.

00:46:11.880 | Exactly.

00:46:12.680 | And they are worth every penny.

00:46:15.080 | Absolutely.

00:46:15.560 | I love being with them.

00:46:16.520 | And I mean, the college thing is different.

00:46:19.080 | That's going to be kind of tough to swallow.

00:46:22.280 | And I'm not sure we're going to be able to get up to $400,000 of savings for them to

00:46:27.400 | experience college.

00:46:28.840 | But outside of that, no.

00:46:30.680 | Worth every penny.

00:46:31.560 | And yeah, we'd do it all over again.

00:46:33.000 | Yeah.

00:46:34.920 | You've saved a lot, obviously, for yourselves.

00:46:37.480 | And I think one of the challenges that people who don't just have an abundance of unlimited

00:46:42.840 | money face is you've got your own life, and then you've got your kid's life.

00:46:46.760 | And in a perfect world, you could have all the money you need to do everything you want,

00:46:50.520 | give your children all the money they need to do anything they want.

00:46:53.000 | And that reality is just not true for most people.

00:46:56.520 | And so how do you balance saving for yourself versus saving for your kids or their education?

00:47:03.320 | And how do you think about whether you should deprive yourself from a few more vacations

00:47:09.720 | in order to leave them with enough money to pay for college and not have to take on debt?

00:47:15.080 | Yeah.

00:47:15.720 | Again, I think that's all personal for each family.

00:47:18.600 | But for us, what we like to do is make sure that we're all set for retirement before we

00:47:23.560 | worry about our kid's college because they can take student loans, but I can't take retirement

00:47:27.560 | loans.

00:47:28.200 | So it's one of those things where we want to make sure that we're all set.

00:47:31.240 | And we have been.

00:47:32.440 | We've gotten to ourselves to a position where we feel like we are going to be able to kind

00:47:36.520 | of coast to retirement and feel pretty comfortable with what we have.

00:47:40.520 | Outside of that, our kids value vacations.

00:47:43.480 | So I think there's something to life experiences today in those zero to 18 years that the kids

00:47:50.280 | are really going to remember.

00:47:51.640 | And them going to college isn't a for sure thing.

00:47:55.240 | They might not want to go to college or they might not have the drive to go to college.

00:47:59.320 | We're going to encourage them to.

00:48:00.680 | We want them to.

00:48:02.120 | But making time for fun today is very important to us.

00:48:07.640 | In fact, after we paid off our mortgage, that was one of the conversations that Nicole and

00:48:11.560 | I had.

00:48:12.120 | We value vacations so much that we need to be setting aside at least 10% of our income

00:48:16.840 | towards vacations.

00:48:18.200 | And so that's what we did.

00:48:19.240 | We sort of filter that money into a different account that's outside of our checking account

00:48:23.640 | that just sits there and starts to build up so that when we look back, we're like, oh,

00:48:26.520 | man, we got five grand in there.

00:48:27.640 | Where are we going to go?

00:48:28.680 | You know?

00:48:29.240 | And then if we use travel hacking, we can go even further.

00:48:31.320 | So that became a priority of ours.

00:48:33.080 | So when people talk about making memories and making fun for it, yeah, if you've saved

00:48:38.600 | up and you are not paying high interest credit card debt and you're checking the boxes to

00:48:42.440 | save towards retirement, money's for fun, man.

00:48:46.600 | Use your money and enjoy your life.

00:48:48.360 | I mean, yes, check those important boxes.

00:48:50.600 | Make sure you're not going into credit card debt to experience all these things.

00:48:54.840 | But if you're checking all the boxes, all the important financial things to do, you've

00:48:59.480 | got enough saved in an emergency, you've paid off your high interest credit card debt, and

00:49:03.800 | you are saving for retirement, then yes, enjoy life and bring the kids along with you.

00:49:09.400 | And what would you say to someone who's like, gosh, I just really struggle with the idea

00:49:15.960 | of spending more money and enjoying my life, knowing that I'm not putting it towards my

00:49:22.680 | kids' college and that they might have to take on debt?

00:49:25.320 | How do you think about that?

00:49:26.200 | Because I think you're a very rational person.

00:49:28.200 | You've talked to lots of people about this, and I think that's something I struggle with

00:49:32.040 | is how do you balance that?

00:49:34.200 | And obviously, you want enough to take a trip, but do you take two trips?

00:49:37.240 | Do you take three trips?

00:49:38.200 | Is there a point at which you balance and start to save for both?

00:49:43.080 | I think college has a lot more ways to slice it than people think.

00:49:46.840 | Obviously, you can invest and save at an early age through a 529 that can help you build

00:49:52.520 | up a good balance.

00:49:54.040 | When they get to that point, let's say you don't have enough, scholarships can be earned.

00:49:58.520 | You can spend some time on the weekends before they graduate where they're filling out scholarship

00:50:04.280 | applications each weekend.

00:50:06.040 | You pump enough of those things out there, you can get tens of thousands of dollars towards

00:50:10.120 | college for sure.

00:50:11.160 | I've talked to enough families that say, this is a reality.

00:50:14.680 | This is something we did to pay for my entire college experience.

00:50:17.480 | It just requires time, dedication.

00:50:20.280 | They can also work in high school.

00:50:23.240 | They can get some experience, understand what it means to do hard work and save up for something.

00:50:29.000 | They can also work in college.

00:50:30.840 | There are ways to hack college a little easier than just saying, hey, I better have every

00:50:36.360 | single penny to make sure we've got enough for them to go to college because otherwise,

00:50:40.520 | they're going to be trapped in student loan debt.

00:50:42.520 | There are different ways to do it.

00:50:43.560 | They can go to community college for the first couple of years and get their credits at a

00:50:47.720 | fraction of the price and then still finish their degree at the university if they want.

00:50:52.200 | There are ways to do it.

00:50:53.800 | I just think sometimes we just take things at face value and I know that I have in the

00:50:57.800 | past.

00:50:58.520 | When I took on my student loans, you just take it as face value and you just go to the

00:51:01.960 | university and you pay it and say, well, everybody's taking on student loans.

00:51:05.560 | You don't have to.

00:51:06.520 | You can do things a little differently and there's lots of different routes to do it.

00:51:09.240 | Yeah, I mean, I think something important there is a lot of us in college, we hadn't

00:51:15.080 | really figured out money and so we took things at face value.

00:51:17.960 | We did what we thought we were supposed to do.

00:51:20.440 | Are you thinking about helping your kids understand money from an earlier age than maybe you did?

00:51:26.200 | Absolutely.

00:51:27.080 | Yeah, and we have started that ever since I think Zoe was four years old.

00:51:30.760 | We've done like a chore and reward program at the house.

00:51:33.960 | So every actually now it's a daily thing with the kids.

00:51:38.040 | So they come home from camp or school and they've got one chore that they need to do

00:51:43.800 | to help the family.

00:51:45.000 | So they're understanding that they need to contribute.

00:51:48.120 | They need to help around the house.

00:51:49.720 | So that's ever since they were young, it's either like emptying the little garbage cans

00:51:54.440 | around the house, using the little vacuum to clean things, doing laundry.

00:51:58.520 | My son is seven years old and he knows how to do laundry.

00:52:02.600 | And I know some 18, 20-year-olds that don't know how to do laundry.

00:52:05.560 | My seven-year-old knows how to do it.

00:52:06.760 | And so we're teaching them life skills, but then also giving them money to mess up with.

00:52:12.600 | So we give them a dollar for every year they've lived.

00:52:16.360 | So Zoe gets $9, Calvin gets $7.

00:52:18.920 | And we now direct deposit that directly into their Ally savings accounts or their checking

00:52:24.840 | accounts.

00:52:25.240 | They have their own debit cards.

00:52:26.840 | So when they want to purchase something, they've got enough money in their checking account

00:52:30.600 | to do that.

00:52:31.160 | And I have conversations with my daughter about understanding that there's shipping,

00:52:36.280 | there's tax, there's things like that.

00:52:38.360 | These conversations are happening early enough where I feel like she's going to be a smart,

00:52:42.920 | educated young woman.

00:52:45.080 | And yes, are there mistakes?

00:52:47.080 | Yes, I'm so glad that they're making mistakes now at nine and seven as opposed to 29 and

00:52:51.880 | 27 when it's $50,000 instead of maybe $5 that we're dealing with with the mistakes.

00:52:58.120 | So I'm excited about those conversations that we're having together.

00:53:01.560 | They're learning hard work.

00:53:02.760 | They're learning that with that hard work, they get a reward.

00:53:05.560 | And not only are we talking about spending with them, but we also divide their earnings

00:53:11.560 | into other buckets.

00:53:12.440 | So they've got an investment bucket, they've got a savings bucket, and they've also got

00:53:16.520 | a giving bucket because we feel in our family that it's important to give back as well because

00:53:21.720 | not only it's the right thing to do in society, but we've had some privilege in our life.

00:53:24.920 | So we feel like we have to give back.

00:53:26.360 | So we have a conversation with them every three months where they sort of empty that

00:53:29.720 | digital giving jar.

00:53:31.480 | And we talk about what they're feeling grateful for, what they're feeling excited about in

00:53:35.800 | life.

00:53:36.120 | And then we talk about charities that honor that thanks to people who maybe don't have

00:53:41.560 | that.

00:53:41.880 | So, for example, my son is really happy with the house that he has.

00:53:45.160 | He really likes having a roof over his head.

00:53:46.680 | So he gives to a charity called, say, Detroit that helps people who don't have homes in

00:53:50.360 | Metro Detroit.

00:53:51.480 | And he's given to that charity now for two years.

00:53:54.680 | We wrote a little letter to Mitch Albom, who runs that charity, and he featured Calvin

00:54:00.120 | on his radio show at, I think it was four years old, five years old.

00:54:03.320 | And that was one of those moments where I'm like, "Man, my son, he might not remember

00:54:07.560 | this, but I'm going to keep that video."

00:54:09.400 | And it's going to be one of those things that he's going to be like, "Yeah, I've been given

00:54:12.680 | since I was four or five."

00:54:14.120 | And he understands the power of that and understands that money can not only do great

00:54:18.760 | things for your life, but it can also do great things for other people who are in need.

00:54:22.280 | So we're having lots of conversations with the kids, and I hope that they come away with

00:54:26.280 | something after this 18 years in our house.

00:54:28.840 | - That's awesome.

00:54:30.760 | Any lessons you've learned about teaching kids money that maybe weren't so obvious that

00:54:35.480 | have been really helpful?

00:54:36.440 | - Yeah, in the beginning, we would give them the money and we say, "Hey, here it is in

00:54:40.440 | your account.

00:54:41.560 | Enjoy it and spend it."

00:54:42.680 | And then it was one of those things that we were dealing with contentment problems.

00:54:46.440 | So they would buy something, and then 10 minutes later, they'd be like, "All right, this isn't

00:54:50.920 | any fun anymore.

00:54:52.200 | Can I buy something else right now?"

00:54:53.560 | And in the beginning, it was like, "Oh, yeah, sure.

00:54:55.400 | You got the money in your account.

00:54:56.280 | Yeah, go ahead."

00:54:57.160 | And then it was one of those things where it's like, "Man, we're creating little consumers.

00:55:00.360 | We're creating little crazy consumers.

00:55:01.800 | They bought this thing, they used it for 10 minutes, and now it's all sitting over in

00:55:05.320 | the corner, little plastic thing, and now they're going to buy the next thing."

00:55:07.960 | And then Nicole and I were like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, we got to stop this.

00:55:10.680 | This is a little crazy.

00:55:12.040 | We're going to limit the purchases to once a month.

00:55:15.240 | You guys enjoy the toys.

00:55:16.680 | You can buy what you have.

00:55:18.200 | You have got the money in there.

00:55:19.560 | Enjoy it for a while, and then next month, we can try something new."

00:55:24.040 | Because we don't want to just create little mindless spenders because then they're not

00:55:28.520 | going to have any...

00:55:29.400 | They're going to say, "Hey, man, this thing doesn't give me the happiness that I want.

00:55:32.360 | I need something else right away."

00:55:33.960 | And that's not what we want.

00:55:34.840 | We do want them to understand that not every toy is going to be fantastic, but we also

00:55:39.960 | don't want to have them buying things over and over again.

00:55:42.360 | Because Nicole's more of a minimalist kind of design in the home, and she doesn't really

00:55:46.680 | like a lot of clutter.

00:55:47.480 | So when we've got a lot of things in here, it's either, "Can we sell this on Facebook?

00:55:51.160 | Can we give it away?

00:55:52.040 | Or do something else with it?"

00:55:53.960 | Have you taught the kids to start selling stuff on Facebook Marketplace yet?

00:55:57.240 | Yeah, yeah.

00:55:57.800 | Zoe is currently...

00:55:59.320 | She's got what she got listed.

00:56:00.360 | She's got a couple of posters listed.

00:56:01.720 | She's got some toys listed.

00:56:03.000 | Calvin's selling some Beyblades right now.

00:56:05.320 | He just got $15 for some old toys, and that's going to go into his digital jars.

00:56:10.760 | So yeah, we do it together.

00:56:11.960 | We take the photos together.

00:56:13.480 | Zoe's gotten old enough where she can kind of input the description and the photos and

00:56:17.080 | kind of do it all herself.

00:56:18.120 | So Calvin requires a little bit more help from dad.

00:56:20.920 | So...

00:56:21.420 | I just am now imagining my childhood of the garage sale, not the digital online garage

00:56:27.960 | sale.

00:56:28.280 | Oh, yeah.

00:56:28.680 | Facebook Marketplace is fantastic because you can ship all around the country, and they

00:56:32.200 | print out the label for you.

00:56:33.320 | It just kind of creates it a little...

00:56:34.440 | Makes it a little easier.

00:56:35.240 | I love that.

00:56:37.320 | Now, again, outside of money with kids, I'm a new dad.

00:56:40.360 | I've got a one-year-old.

00:56:41.480 | I've got a journey ahead of me.

00:56:43.000 | What advice do you have for me to make both the journey with the children and the journey

00:56:47.560 | with the family more efficient, more...

00:56:49.480 | Just better?

00:56:51.160 | Yeah, yeah.

00:56:51.960 | I especially remember the young years, especially with my kids.

00:56:55.960 | I would say a lot of it has to do with making the space and time to learn how they also

00:57:01.240 | like to be loved.

00:57:02.520 | Calvin is very much like his mother.

00:57:04.440 | He likes time.

00:57:05.320 | He likes time with his dad, and he likes words of affirmation.

00:57:09.000 | And then my daughter's always more about, like, cuddling and affection and, you know,

00:57:13.960 | just kind of being close to each other.

00:57:15.480 | So learning how your kids like to be loved is also important.

00:57:19.960 | And I've learned that over the years, that they like different things, and they require

00:57:25.320 | different attention.

00:57:26.600 | And with that attention, I have dedicated one-on-one time with them each month.

00:57:31.960 | So Calvin will get one month, and then Zoe will get another, where they get to choose

00:57:37.080 | for two to three hours, we're going to go do something, whatever you want to do.

00:57:41.400 | We're going to go wherever you want to go.

00:57:42.760 | Calvin likes to go to, like, a play place with, like, trampolines and stuff like that.

00:57:46.920 | Zoe likes to go see Marvel movies.

00:57:49.560 | So just creating that dedicated time where I'm giving them all of me and putting away

00:57:55.000 | my phone and turning it off is really great for us.

00:57:58.520 | And when you've got multiple kids in the house, it can lead to some, you know, sort

00:58:03.000 | of resentment and some jealousy.

00:58:04.520 | So when you're able to give that dedicated time, that's been very helpful.

00:58:07.960 | I got that, you know, a hack from a great book that I read called The Family Board Meeting

00:58:12.120 | by Jim Shields, where he talks about this concept of 18 summers.

00:58:16.840 | We only have 18 summers before our kids are off to college or off to doing their own thing.

00:58:23.880 | So how can we make that time really special?

00:58:27.320 | And how can we make some great memories together?

00:58:29.160 | So that one-on-one time has been really special for us.

00:58:31.720 | Yeah, any other?

00:58:34.280 | I haven't read a lot of books on family and parenting.

00:58:37.720 | It's all a little new.

00:58:38.920 | Any other recommendations there?

00:58:40.840 | Well, as far as the marriage side of things, I really liked this book from the Holderness

00:58:47.320 | family called Everybody Fights, so why not get better at it?

00:58:50.520 | And this is a family that is very popular on YouTube and online, but they wrote this

00:58:56.120 | book because they often fight.

00:58:58.600 | They're pretty emotional, excited kind of people, but they talk about ways to make fighting,

00:59:05.080 | because it's inevitable, ways to make fighting easier.

00:59:07.960 | And one hack that they had in the book was just sort of being like, "Hey, if you've just

00:59:13.640 | recently been in a fight, try to think about what's an easy trigger that it caused.

00:59:18.600 | You know, were you guys drinking?

00:59:20.600 | Was somebody really tired?

00:59:21.720 | Was somebody hangry?

00:59:22.760 | Did something add to this that made it even more intense?"

00:59:26.840 | And sort of recognize that as you guys are describing this horrible fight that you've

00:59:31.400 | been in now, and maybe have some humility and say, "Hey, you know what?

00:59:35.320 | I was a little bit more tired than I normally was because I was sort of, whatever, day drinking,

00:59:39.400 | or I had not gotten good sleep the night before, or whatever it was."

00:59:44.040 | And just sort of approaching the fight with some humility.

00:59:47.720 | Also, understanding how people like to fight.

00:59:50.520 | For example, Nicole, when we get into fights, she needs some space afterward.

00:59:55.320 | I'm always the one who wants to quick fix it, being like, "Okay, let's resolve this

01:00:00.280 | right now.

01:00:00.600 | Let's talk through it."

01:00:01.480 | And she's like, "No, dude.

01:00:02.440 | I need to kind of go away.

01:00:04.040 | I need some space."

01:00:05.000 | And so sort of understanding how people like to fight, how people like to resolve things

01:00:10.200 | was a good concept in that book, and I really enjoyed it.

01:00:13.800 | - Yeah.

01:00:15.560 | I learned that the hard way, which is I'm like you.

01:00:18.600 | We're arguing about something, and I'm like, "Let's just see if we can resolve this thing

01:00:23.480 | right now."

01:00:24.040 | And in our relationship, one of the ways to get your point across is to find the most

01:00:28.520 | effective time to present it.

01:00:29.880 | And for me, it's not right after a conflict.

01:00:32.760 | It's not right before bed.

01:00:34.360 | Like, I know that those two times make it less compelling for me to get my point across.

01:00:39.320 | And so in the same way that if I want to try to present an idea at work, I'm going to put

01:00:44.760 | the time and energy into when's the right time to share it with my team, maybe put together

01:00:49.400 | a presentation.

01:00:50.280 | I just apply similar thoughts to, "Okay, when's the right time to present this idea?"

01:00:55.720 | I think maybe we should take an extra vacation this year.

01:00:59.560 | That's not something that I want to bring up.

01:01:01.480 | If we're going to bed, it's like, "Hey, I know you're about to fall asleep.

01:01:05.160 | But do you want to have this big conversation about how we could spend some money on a trip?"

01:01:08.440 | It doesn't go well.

01:01:09.880 | And for me, I've tried to explain, "Well, look, we don't need to talk about it now.

01:01:14.520 | But just know that the reason I'm bringing it up isn't because we have to.

01:01:17.640 | I'm just so excited."

01:01:18.680 | And so it goes back to something you said earlier, which is understanding the motivations

01:01:23.320 | behind why people do things is really important.

01:01:26.040 | Absolutely.

01:01:26.600 | Yeah.

01:01:26.760 | Nicole likes to squash that, "Don't go to bed angry."

01:01:30.040 | You know, that adage where it's like, "No, no, no.

01:01:32.600 | I just need to go to bed."

01:01:37.080 | Yeah. And understanding that is often very helpful.

01:01:39.960 | Absolutely.

01:01:40.360 | I talked about it in the introduction here.

01:01:42.440 | But what led you to be someone who decided this was going to be your career, right?

01:01:48.600 | You quit your job and you now run Marriage, Kids, and Money.

01:01:51.800 | And you've got videos, you've got a podcast, you've got a blog.

01:01:54.680 | How do you describe how that became your thing?

01:01:58.120 | Yeah.

01:01:58.520 | About 5 years ago, I was having a really bad day at work.

01:02:02.360 | And it was one of those things where we got new management at the company.

01:02:07.720 | And with that new management, all of a sudden, they made some changes on the teams.

01:02:11.720 | They said, "Andy, you're not on that team anymore.

01:02:14.120 | You're on this team.

01:02:15.000 | And the people reporting to you are now not reporting to you.

01:02:17.560 | You're reporting to this guy."

01:02:18.920 | And it was one of those things where I was like, "Man, I don't really have any ownership

01:02:24.440 | of my life here at this career.

01:02:27.720 | It's something that I feel like I'm not in control of."

01:02:31.800 | And at home, I've got two very young kids at the time.

01:02:35.480 | They've got a 3-year-old and a 1-year-old.

01:02:37.000 | And I have no control there either.

01:02:38.680 | So I'm like, "Okay, what's something that I can do that's sort of like a hobby, something

01:02:42.840 | that I can grab onto that just makes me feel like, I don't know, I need something?"

01:02:46.920 | And so I had been listening to podcasts around that time.

01:02:49.560 | And I said, "Well, why don't I just start a podcast?

01:02:51.240 | I think that could be fun.

01:02:51.880 | I have something to share.

01:02:52.760 | I want to learn from people.

01:02:54.120 | It could be a great way as an outlet."

01:02:56.920 | So I did that.

01:02:57.400 | I decided to start Marriage, Kids, and Money in 2016.

01:02:59.880 | And it was one of those things where I'd share a little bit about our journey.

01:03:03.480 | And then I would interview really smart people that would help us on our journey or just

01:03:06.680 | help people who are listening as well.

01:03:08.360 | And then over time, people started to listen, which was great, outside of my wife and my

01:03:13.400 | mom, which was awesome.

01:03:14.520 | And I started to get some podcast sponsors.

01:03:17.480 | And then people wanted to work with me on different things.

01:03:20.120 | And so it started to become not just a hobby, but a side hustle.

01:03:23.560 | And then over time, it started to grow even more.

01:03:26.360 | And it got to a point where I had amassed enough money and savings, and we had done

01:03:32.760 | well enough in our financial life where it was one of those things where it's like, "Let's

01:03:37.160 | take a risk.

01:03:37.800 | Let's take a jump and try to do something that's not, I don't know, prescriptive, like

01:03:42.920 | what I'm supposed to do."

01:03:44.200 | And Nicole was very—actually, she encouraged me to do it, really.

01:03:47.720 | So I took the leap to do it full-time in January 2020.

01:03:51.000 | I had some contracts.

01:03:53.240 | I had some sponsorships.

01:03:55.480 | Things were kind of set in place.

01:03:57.320 | And yes, it was two months right before the pandemic hit.

01:04:00.680 | But a year and a half later, I'm still standing.

01:04:02.920 | So there was lots of ups and downs with different contracts and clients and partnerships and

01:04:07.800 | things like that.

01:04:08.360 | But all in all, we've been doing well.

01:04:10.920 | Life's good.

01:04:11.880 | Things are growing well.

01:04:13.160 | I really love the work that I do every single day.

01:04:16.120 | I get to learn.

01:04:18.040 | I get to help people.

01:04:19.160 | And at the end of the day, I'm extremely happy.

01:04:22.680 | I am doing work that I love, and I'm able to be paid for it.

01:04:26.440 | So that's life to me, man.

01:04:29.160 | Yeah.

01:04:30.840 | I'm a big fan of all your work.

01:04:32.280 | Where can people find it?

01:04:33.640 | What are the different avenues that you produce content for?

01:04:36.360 | Absolutely.

01:04:36.760 | Well, if you're listening to this podcast, the best thing to do is just to type in "Marriage,

01:04:40.120 | Kids, and Money" in your favorite podcast player.

01:04:42.280 | That is the great place to connect with me.

01:04:44.600 | We do YouTube videos as well.

01:04:46.920 | So if you're a YouTube person, you can type in "Marriage, Kids, and Money" there as well.

01:04:50.520 | Well, thank you so much for being on here.

01:04:52.200 | Thanks, Chris.

01:04:52.680 | I appreciate the opportunity.

01:04:53.720 | That was amazing.

01:04:56.600 | Thank you so much for listening.

01:04:58.360 | You can find links to everything we discussed in the show notes.

01:05:01.240 | And if you're not already subscribed to the show, you can click subscribe or follow.

01:05:05.320 | I'm not sure.

01:05:05.800 | They keep changing the name, and you'll get access to all future episodes.

01:05:09.480 | Also, to listeners who've written in, I've gotten some amazing questions from you guys.

01:05:14.040 | I love hearing from all of you, and I read every email you send.

01:05:17.000 | So keep them coming to chris@allthehacks.com.

01:05:20.280 | I'm actually excited to be talking about a lot of these questions in a future episode.

01:05:23.800 | So that's coming out soon.

01:05:25.560 | And that's it for now.

01:05:26.600 | So thank you so much for listening.

01:05:28.040 | See you next week.

01:05:41.320 | I want to tell you about another podcast I love that goes deep on all things money.

01:05:49.560 | That means everything from money hacks to wealth building to early retirement.

01:05:53.400 | It's called the Personal Finance Podcast.

01:05:55.640 | And it's much more about building generational wealth and spending your money on the things

01:06:00.120 | you value than it is about clipping coupons to save a dollar.

01:06:03.640 | It's hosted by my good friend, Andrew, who truly believes that everyone in this world

01:06:07.800 | can build wealth.

01:06:08.760 | And his passion and excitement are what make this show so entertaining.

01:06:12.920 | I know because I was a guest on the show in December 2022.

01:06:16.760 | But recently, I listened to an episode where Andrew shared 16 money stats that will blow

01:06:21.560 | your mind.

01:06:22.360 | And it was so crazy to learn things like 35% of millennials are not participating in their

01:06:27.480 | employer's retirement plan.

01:06:29.000 | And that's just one of the many fascinating stats he shared.

01:06:32.680 | The Personal Finance Podcast has something for everyone.

01:06:35.400 | It's filled with so many tips and tactics and hacks to help you get better with your

01:06:39.240 | money and grow your wealth.

01:06:40.920 | So I highly recommend you check it out.

01:06:43.000 | Just search for the Personal Finance Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you

01:06:47.720 | listen to podcasts and enjoy.