ATHLLC6044932632

00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)

00:00:02.720 | - Hello, and welcome to another episode of All The Hacks,

00:00:05.600 | a show about upgrading your life, money, and travel.

00:00:08.280 | I'm Chris Hutchins, and today I'm talking

00:00:10.120 | to one of my favorite authors, Derek Sivers.

00:00:12.860 | He has a seemingly unlimited arsenal

00:00:14.920 | of incredible life advice that comes

00:00:16.900 | from one of the most unconventional life paths

00:00:19.000 | I've ever come across.

00:00:20.680 | He started his career as a professional musician,

00:00:23.200 | ended up joining the circus for almost 10 years

00:00:25.880 | until he started CD Baby, which became the largest seller

00:00:29.140 | of independent music on the web in the early 2000s

00:00:32.000 | with over $100 million in sales.

00:00:34.360 | In 2008, he sold the company, giving away most

00:00:36.960 | of the proceeds to charity, and has been focused

00:00:39.340 | on a life of creating and learning ever since.

00:00:42.280 | We're all fortunate for that path

00:00:43.740 | because of the amazing writing he's done since then.

00:00:46.520 | So today, I'm gonna try to give you a glimpse

00:00:48.440 | at that wisdom as it relates to decision-making,

00:00:51.120 | aligning your actions with your personal values,

00:00:53.520 | living a more satisfying life,

00:00:55.380 | creating meaningful experiences, and a lot more.

00:00:57.960 | We'll also talk about why Derek thinks traveling

00:01:00.600 | with children is easier

00:01:01.880 | than just about any other parent I've met.

00:01:04.640 | It's a lot to cover,

00:01:05.760 | and I really hope you enjoy this episode.

00:01:07.840 | So let's jump in right after this.

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00:02:33.600 | (upbeat music)

00:02:36.000 | - Derek, thanks for being here.

00:02:37.960 | - Thanks, Chris.

00:02:39.400 | - So from the outside looking in,

00:02:41.700 | when I read everything you write,

00:02:43.080 | I'm like, "Gosh, this guy has it all figured out."

00:02:44.920 | And for every aspect of life, I'm always like,

00:02:47.160 | "Ah, there's probably a post Derek wrote.

00:02:48.640 | I could just search up about this thing.

00:02:50.120 | I'm trying to make a decision or be a better parent."

00:02:52.160 | Do you feel like you have everything figured out?

00:02:54.280 | - I'm an explorer.

00:02:56.020 | So at any given moment, I might have figured out right now,

00:03:01.020 | or I might've figured out yesterday's exploration

00:03:04.460 | and what I want to do about it,

00:03:06.500 | but then give it a few days and I'm off to somewhere new.

00:03:08.820 | - I wanna make a bit of a theme of this

00:03:10.580 | because I think the average person listening

00:03:13.580 | isn't comfortable with that level of exploration

00:03:16.520 | in their life.

00:03:17.360 | How do you get comfortable saying,

00:03:18.960 | "Well, maybe I don't have to have this job.

00:03:20.540 | Maybe I don't have to live in this place,"

00:03:22.340 | and reframing it around what you wanna do in the moment

00:03:25.420 | or what you should be doing?

00:03:27.100 | Is there a thing, maybe a tappiness

00:03:28.820 | that you kind of use to guide your exploration?

00:03:32.100 | - Intellectual interest, but also I'm usually led

00:03:35.900 | by whatever it feels I'm lacking now.

00:03:39.820 | And it sounds weird to put that so bluntly,

00:03:41.940 | but say you might be living in the middle of a city

00:03:46.900 | and you're too hectic and you're too booked up

00:03:50.300 | and you've got too many things going on

00:03:51.660 | and you think, "Ah, if only I could go live

00:03:54.620 | in the middle of nowhere in the country."

00:03:56.380 | And so you do that, you make some changes in your life,

00:03:59.060 | you make your job remote or whatever it may be,

00:04:01.980 | and then you move off to the middle of nowhere

00:04:04.660 | and you get there and you go, "Ah, I've done it."

00:04:09.340 | And after a week or a month, you go,

00:04:12.800 | "Yeah, I kind of miss a little commotion," you know?

00:04:15.300 | And so you start pursuing something

00:04:17.460 | to put a little commotion back in your life.

00:04:19.460 | I think we're often driven by what we feel

00:04:21.460 | that we're lacking right now.

00:04:23.140 | And so I do that too.

00:04:23.980 | It's like the pendulum swinging.

00:04:26.460 | You know, the pendulum goes too far off to one end

00:04:28.860 | and it kind of goes, "Ah, I wish I had a little gravity

00:04:31.100 | bringing me back to the center."

00:04:32.460 | And so the pendulum swings back to the center,

00:04:34.780 | but then it keeps swinging to the other end

00:04:36.380 | and it goes, "Ah, yeah, I wish I had something

00:04:38.820 | bringing me back there again."

00:04:40.500 | So that's probably driving a lot of my pursuits,

00:04:45.340 | but let's say that combined with the intellectual curiosity

00:04:51.340 | drives to just try something new.

00:04:52.980 | - Now, if we rewind, you said the person living in the city

00:04:55.420 | feels overwhelmed, so they move to the middle of nowhere.

00:04:58.060 | I imagine that most of those people

00:05:00.020 | are actually not gonna do the move.

00:05:01.780 | I think most of the people probably get stuck

00:05:03.580 | in a situation saying, "I'm living in the city.

00:05:06.580 | Everything's overwhelming.

00:05:08.020 | Wouldn't it be nice to go just disconnect for a month,

00:05:12.980 | but I just can't do that."

00:05:14.740 | So I wanna rewind to that narrative and say,

00:05:18.580 | how have you been the kind of person

00:05:20.300 | that's been able to do that?

00:05:21.940 | When so many people, six months later,

00:05:24.820 | are still saying, "I'm still in the city.

00:05:26.980 | I'm still overwhelmed.

00:05:28.260 | I'm still frustrated in my job."

00:05:31.060 | Is there some thing that you've unlocked

00:05:33.820 | that allows you to do what so many people can't?

00:05:36.220 | - Hmm, I think I've always pursued that,

00:05:38.380 | even since I was a teenager.

00:05:40.860 | Now, hold on, you said one key thing in there.

00:05:42.980 | You said like three months later or six months later.

00:05:46.020 | It might take a couple years.

00:05:48.340 | When I was 25, I was a touring musician

00:05:52.380 | playing the college market in the Northeast,

00:05:54.540 | and I decided to move to Woodstock, New York.

00:05:57.580 | And I did it, kinda like the little scenario I just described.

00:06:01.620 | I had enough of New York City.

00:06:02.740 | I had been living right in the middle of New York City

00:06:04.700 | for like five years, six years,

00:06:06.700 | and I was just like, "I've had enough.

00:06:07.940 | I wanna move to Woodstock, New York.

00:06:09.580 | I think that's my place."

00:06:11.260 | And so I just did it.

00:06:13.820 | I just drove up there one day.

00:06:15.700 | I went straight to the Century 21 real estate office,

00:06:18.540 | and I said, "Show me what you got.

00:06:19.900 | I wanna live here now."

00:06:21.500 | And she showed me something, and I was like,

00:06:23.220 | "I could afford it."

00:06:24.100 | So I said, "Okay, I'll take it."

00:06:25.780 | And got rid of my life in Queens, New York,

00:06:29.180 | and moved to Woodstock, New York.

00:06:31.500 | And about a month later,

00:06:33.420 | I was at a gig in Rhode Island somewhere,

00:06:37.740 | and Renee, this redhead who had hired me for the gig,

00:06:41.980 | I had known her from before.

00:06:43.100 | Like she had hired me like two years earlier.

00:06:45.540 | And she said, "Oh my God, good to see you again.

00:06:48.300 | How's it going?"

00:06:49.140 | And I said, "Well, I just moved to Woodstock."

00:06:52.140 | And she goes, "Get out.

00:06:53.900 | No way.

00:06:55.660 | Derek, oh my God, that's amazing."

00:06:58.660 | And I said, "What?

00:07:00.540 | Why do you?"

00:07:01.460 | She's like, "Derek, don't you remember?

00:07:03.980 | You told me this."

00:07:04.900 | I said, "No, I just moved last week."

00:07:07.460 | She goes, "Yeah, two years ago,

00:07:09.220 | you told me you wanted to move to Woodstock."

00:07:12.260 | I said, "I did?

00:07:14.180 | I don't even remember wanting to move there two years ago."

00:07:17.140 | She goes, "Yeah, oh my God, two years ago,

00:07:19.420 | you told me you wanted to move to Woodstock.

00:07:20.860 | You did it.

00:07:21.700 | That's amazing."

00:07:22.540 | I went, "Oh, wow.

00:07:24.020 | Wow, I guess I've been wanting this a long time."

00:07:26.980 | So sometimes I think it goes like that.

00:07:30.420 | It might take a couple of years

00:07:31.940 | for your intention to turn into reality.

00:07:35.780 | - So maybe just accepting that everything doesn't have

00:07:38.900 | to move as fast as we expect it to,

00:07:41.980 | especially in a professional setting.

00:07:43.940 | I know you are well-known for saying

00:07:46.740 | that you try not to just give your first answer

00:07:49.020 | if someone asks you a question,

00:07:49.940 | not to just quick, immediately react.

00:07:51.900 | I think maybe we live in a world

00:07:54.100 | where that's kind of not the way we default operate.

00:07:57.660 | So if I'm overwhelmed and I feel like I need to move,

00:08:00.820 | I don't think, how could I slowly transition my life

00:08:03.780 | to be able to move in a year or two?

00:08:05.460 | I think, could I move tomorrow?

00:08:07.700 | No, oh, I could never move.

00:08:11.780 | Okay, but there are some things in life

00:08:13.780 | where doing it tomorrow is the right choice.

00:08:18.340 | Here's a more recent example.

00:08:20.540 | And I know this doesn't sound like a big deal,

00:08:22.780 | but I'm living here in New Zealand now

00:08:24.700 | and I was missing social interactions.

00:08:28.100 | New Zealand's quite isolated.

00:08:29.940 | And I used to attend a lot of conferences,

00:08:32.140 | like whether it was a TED conference

00:08:34.060 | or music conferences or tech conferences.

00:08:36.940 | And I kind of miss having a bunch

00:08:39.420 | of new random people in my life.

00:08:41.020 | I kind of miss that thing where you'd go to a conference

00:08:43.660 | and meet like 50 people in two days.

00:08:46.900 | And because I missed that, I was like,

00:08:49.060 | I'm gonna make that happen.

00:08:50.500 | I'm gonna go just do that myself.

00:08:52.540 | So I booked a trip to India,

00:08:56.020 | specifically Chennai and Bangalore,

00:08:58.100 | two cities where I know there are a lot of people

00:09:00.020 | in my database that I've never met face-to-face.

00:09:02.460 | And I sent an email saying, all right,

00:09:04.620 | I'm coming to Chennai and Bangalore for 10 days.

00:09:06.660 | Who should I meet?

00:09:07.500 | And used a little scheduling program

00:09:08.980 | and I booked in like nine meetings per day

00:09:12.300 | with strangers for six days straight,

00:09:15.420 | met with about 55 people.

00:09:17.380 | And I just got back a couple of days ago

00:09:19.860 | and it was intense and wonderful.

00:09:23.020 | And I came back and I was telling a friend about it.

00:09:25.780 | And she said the same thing that you said.

00:09:27.860 | I'm just like, God, you just kind of have an idea

00:09:29.620 | and then you just go make it happen.

00:09:31.260 | That's amazing.

00:09:32.180 | And yeah, that was a sweet compliment from an old friend.

00:09:35.020 | And it was kind of funny to hear you

00:09:36.460 | just say a version of that right now.

00:09:37.940 | So I guess this is something

00:09:39.180 | like my moving to Woodstock example

00:09:41.020 | that I think I've just made it a priority.

00:09:43.060 | Also, maybe I've always kept my life quite light,

00:09:47.900 | meaning I try not to get into situations

00:09:52.020 | that bind me to a place.

00:09:53.660 | I try not to own much stuff.

00:09:56.460 | So it's just dead easy for me to move.

00:09:58.180 | I can pack up my whole house and move in a day.

00:10:00.060 | That's just been a priority for me.

00:10:01.540 | But that's not to say that everybody should be like that.

00:10:04.860 | Some people get deep joy out of having a home

00:10:09.620 | with their sofa that they love

00:10:11.860 | and their piano and their things.

00:10:13.380 | And it would be hard for them to move,

00:10:15.540 | but that's fine 'cause they get deep joy

00:10:18.420 | out of having that deep sense of home

00:10:20.340 | and all of these belongings

00:10:21.620 | that belonged to their grandparents and all of that.

00:10:23.860 | I'm not saying everybody should be nomadic,

00:10:25.460 | but when you're asking how have I done that,

00:10:28.700 | that's my answer.

00:10:29.660 | - I'll go back and say what you did with India

00:10:32.780 | was something that I think some people might think,

00:10:35.420 | gosh, I really miss all these people.

00:10:37.500 | I live in a place that's kind of remote.

00:10:39.180 | I don't see a lot of people.

00:10:40.180 | I'm pretty nomadic capable and I don't own a lot of things.

00:10:43.420 | Maybe I should move somewhere.

00:10:44.940 | And you said, no, maybe I'll just take a trip

00:10:47.100 | to get that kind of fix, if you will.

00:10:49.660 | So I wanna talk a little bit

00:10:50.500 | about how you think about making decisions.

00:10:52.420 | The decision in someone's mind might be,

00:10:54.060 | oh, I'm not able to do what I want.

00:10:56.100 | Obviously I need to move somewhere

00:10:57.980 | where I can have more of a balance,

00:10:59.340 | let the pendulum go back in the middle.

00:11:00.900 | And you said, well, maybe there's an alternative.

00:11:03.020 | Maybe I could go get this deep, intense fix for 10 days

00:11:07.300 | that'll hopefully give you a little high

00:11:10.460 | of human interaction for a period to come and sustain you.

00:11:14.380 | When you approach decision-making,

00:11:15.980 | it sounds like you don't just look at

00:11:18.180 | what's the assumed default option of what I could do.

00:11:20.980 | You try to really make sure you're casting a wide net

00:11:23.380 | at ways to experience things.

00:11:25.380 | - Yes.

00:11:26.220 | It's one of my favorite things is to be reflective

00:11:28.700 | and ask yourself what you really want

00:11:30.420 | and not just limit yourself to a few options

00:11:33.420 | from what you see other people doing,

00:11:36.220 | but to really kind of dig deep and go like,

00:11:39.580 | okay, what do I really want and why do I want that?

00:11:42.540 | What's the real point of that?

00:11:45.100 | So if I think I want to be on a beach in Thailand right now,

00:11:50.060 | well, why do I think that?

00:11:51.380 | What do I really want?

00:11:52.220 | What do I expect will happen when I get there?

00:11:54.900 | Why is it that I need a beach in Thailand?

00:11:56.540 | Could it be a beach anywhere?

00:11:57.740 | Is it just the quiet that I want?

00:11:59.620 | And you may keep asking yourself these questions

00:12:02.180 | and get to the actual answer,

00:12:03.820 | which is that, yeah, my home is too noisy.

00:12:06.260 | I hate all the clamoring here.

00:12:07.620 | I live right above a train station or something

00:12:10.500 | and it's too noisy in my home.

00:12:12.100 | Really what I'm pursuing is the silence.

00:12:13.980 | Well, do you need to go to Thailand to get silence?

00:12:16.700 | Is that the sustainable solution to that?

00:12:19.460 | No, maybe I need to soundproof my office.

00:12:22.860 | And you might come to like,

00:12:24.620 | yeah, actually I don't need Thailand,

00:12:26.060 | but the money it would take to go to Thailand,

00:12:28.380 | I could soundproof my office.

00:12:30.300 | And I really do like living here in Toronto

00:12:32.420 | or wherever it is.

00:12:33.460 | In fact, I'm gonna stay here,

00:12:35.140 | not go to Thailand and soundproof my office.

00:12:37.660 | Yes, that's what I really want.

00:12:39.260 | If you keep digging into yourself,

00:12:42.100 | you might come out with a solution

00:12:44.620 | that suits your problem better.

00:12:46.900 | - Is there something you do,

00:12:47.740 | maybe it's natural for you,

00:12:48.980 | I have to assume it is,

00:12:50.660 | where someone asks you a question or you have an idea

00:12:54.420 | and you're able to force yourself to pause

00:12:56.820 | and think before kind of going all in on this thing.

00:13:00.700 | Someone says, oh, do you wanna go here?

00:13:02.100 | And you're like, and my default is,

00:13:04.700 | do I wanna do this thing or not?

00:13:06.860 | Not, oh, what are these other options?

00:13:09.100 | Someone asks a question.

00:13:10.420 | My default is, do I know the answer or not?

00:13:12.940 | And if I think I know it, let's answer it right away.

00:13:15.500 | I don't have the natural instinct to pause and think before.

00:13:20.500 | And I'm curious,

00:13:22.060 | is there something that you've trained yourself to do?

00:13:24.460 | Is it natural?

00:13:25.660 | Have you thought about how people

00:13:27.500 | who maybe don't have that instinct could adopt it?

00:13:31.500 | I think it would be beneficial to me,

00:13:32.940 | which is why I'm asking.

00:13:34.780 | - Well, I journal like crazy.

00:13:39.300 | - Okay.

00:13:40.140 | - I journal so much.

00:13:42.660 | Unlike the other things where I say,

00:13:43.860 | hey, you know, not everybody has to do this.

00:13:45.620 | Everybody has to do this.

00:13:47.380 | Everybody should do this.

00:13:48.700 | It helps so much to pause.

00:13:52.220 | And it doesn't even matter what,

00:13:53.540 | pen, paper, text file, Google Docs, doesn't matter.

00:13:58.420 | Something where you can stop like every day

00:14:03.420 | and ask yourself these reflective questions.

00:14:07.220 | Like ask yourself questions like,

00:14:09.980 | why am I doing this?

00:14:11.060 | And what am I really after?

00:14:12.820 | What's the point of that?

00:14:14.420 | And then you should doubt yourself.

00:14:17.940 | You should doubt the answers you give yourself.

00:14:20.300 | So even if you say, why do I want this?

00:14:22.700 | Because I've always wanted to go to Thailand.

00:14:24.660 | Challenge yourself, right?

00:14:25.900 | Really, have I always wanted to go to Thailand?

00:14:28.060 | Really, always?

00:14:29.180 | Why do I think that Thailand is the answer?

00:14:31.260 | Like push back on your own answers.

00:14:34.100 | And it can take just an hour of your day.

00:14:38.420 | And it is so, so useful.

00:14:41.100 | And if you say that I don't have an hour in the day,

00:14:42.660 | well, the hell you don't, you know?

00:14:44.540 | Like turn off other things and do this

00:14:47.380 | because where it takes you

00:14:50.300 | makes all the difference in the world.

00:14:52.300 | - And are there prompts that you use

00:14:54.540 | or is it just whatever's happening in the day?

00:14:57.100 | - Yeah, whatever's happening.

00:14:58.140 | Not like generic prompts that I'm gonna, you know,

00:15:00.380 | hey everybody, write down these five questions

00:15:02.140 | to ask yourself every day.

00:15:03.180 | No, it's not like that.

00:15:04.020 | It's just based on whatever your situation is in the moment.

00:15:06.300 | Generally, I think use it to clarify your thinking

00:15:09.660 | and to think of other options.

00:15:11.100 | Like you said, like if you think you have no choice,

00:15:13.540 | you're always wrong.

00:15:14.380 | There's always another choice.

00:15:15.700 | If you think you've only got two choices,

00:15:18.460 | well, those aren't options, that's a dilemma.

00:15:20.740 | If you think you only have two choices,

00:15:22.700 | you still haven't thought enough.

00:15:24.460 | You have to keep thinking of other options.

00:15:26.460 | You can always add some crazy ones in there.

00:15:28.900 | Like, okay, option number three,

00:15:30.940 | I quit everything and join a monastery.

00:15:33.020 | Okay, option number four,

00:15:34.380 | I go down to my local park and I lay on the bench

00:15:36.780 | and I don't leave, I become homeless.

00:15:38.380 | Okay, well now you've added two more options

00:15:40.060 | that you don't like.

00:15:40.900 | Okay, you can always keep going

00:15:42.100 | and then get more creative.

00:15:43.420 | Do the brainstorming approach

00:15:44.660 | where you're deliberately thinking of out-of-the-box,

00:15:49.660 | crazy solutions for your situation,

00:15:52.300 | but just keep going until you've got like 10 or 20 options.

00:15:56.060 | And many of my best ideas in life,

00:15:58.500 | the ones that I've been the happiest with,

00:16:01.380 | the choices I've made,

00:16:02.540 | have come from this pushing myself

00:16:05.420 | to further solutions, right?

00:16:06.540 | It was actually like solution number 18

00:16:10.340 | that got me the most excited

00:16:11.620 | and that's the one I pursued.

00:16:13.540 | - Is there an example of,

00:16:14.820 | I thought I was gonna do this

00:16:16.140 | and this new thing came out

00:16:17.980 | that I never was thinking about originally?

00:16:20.980 | - Ooh, yeah, what's an example?

00:16:23.820 | Well, like actually that trip to India that I just took,

00:16:25.900 | that came far down the list.

00:16:27.660 | At first it was like,

00:16:28.660 | I think I need to go to the TED conference again,

00:16:31.020 | which I haven't been to in 10 years.

00:16:32.540 | And it was like, well,

00:16:34.020 | I think I just need to go to any conference.

00:16:36.340 | And then it was like,

00:16:38.020 | what about a local class here in Wellington, New Zealand,

00:16:41.900 | where I live?

00:16:42.740 | Maybe I can find like a philosophy course here

00:16:45.700 | so I can meet other interesting people

00:16:49.060 | that are into this kind of stuff I'm into.

00:16:52.660 | And then it was like, oh, I could go traveling.

00:16:54.700 | I could go travel Europe.

00:16:56.100 | And I just kept going.

00:16:58.380 | And then yeah, way down the list was like,

00:17:01.140 | I could go to India.

00:17:02.140 | That was like, oh, India, yes.

00:17:05.340 | Oh my God, I haven't been to India in 12 years.

00:17:07.100 | I know so many people in India.

00:17:09.060 | And through a weird thing

00:17:10.500 | that I married a woman from India,

00:17:12.260 | I'm a citizen of India.

00:17:13.340 | I have the legal right to live in India

00:17:14.620 | for the rest of my life.

00:17:15.700 | I was like, ooh,

00:17:16.540 | see this one works for me on many levels

00:17:18.380 | because this wouldn't just be a travel.

00:17:20.940 | This wouldn't just be a trip.

00:17:21.860 | This is like an investment into my future.

00:17:23.620 | Like it's likely I will live there someday.

00:17:26.380 | And so getting to know it better now,

00:17:28.700 | meeting people now would be an investment

00:17:30.700 | into future long-term friendships,

00:17:32.220 | not just a quick romp at a conference.

00:17:35.140 | So yeah, that came way down the list.

00:17:37.180 | And that's one example.

00:17:38.140 | And again, I just got back from this trip.

00:17:39.700 | So it's on my mind right now,

00:17:40.860 | but I met so many interesting people there

00:17:43.580 | and had so many fascinating conversations.

00:17:47.420 | It was just what I needed.

00:17:49.140 | And yeah, that solution did not come

00:17:51.500 | until I had really spent an hour in my journal

00:17:54.460 | thinking of different solutions.

00:17:56.340 | - I love it.

00:17:57.180 | I'm gonna propose for people

00:17:58.340 | who might be like me thinking, gosh, journaling.

00:18:00.380 | I wanna try, but I'm not sure what.

00:18:02.260 | What I hear is take some decision

00:18:04.060 | you're thinking about making

00:18:05.500 | and maybe just spend an hour by yourself

00:18:07.820 | with a notebook, a pen, not a computer,

00:18:10.780 | and just kind of think of different ways

00:18:12.340 | that you could have a different outcome.

00:18:14.380 | Instead of journaling, I'm gonna call it brainstorming

00:18:16.260 | 'cause I think we might be more familiar

00:18:18.260 | with how to start doing that.

00:18:20.180 | But at the end of the day,

00:18:21.020 | it's just writing things down and thinking about them.

00:18:22.860 | So you can call it whatever you want.

00:18:24.700 | But I like this idea.

00:18:25.860 | I'm not a disciplined journaling person,

00:18:28.620 | but I feel like I'm gonna try to take your advice after this

00:18:32.260 | and at least commit to it.

00:18:34.180 | - I'm not disciplined either about it.

00:18:36.740 | It is absolutely not a discipline.

00:18:39.940 | To me, it's just sanity.

00:18:42.100 | It's like, I've been doing this since I was a teenager

00:18:44.180 | and I'm 53 now.

00:18:45.660 | So almost every day I hit some point

00:18:49.180 | where I need to clarify my thoughts on something.

00:18:53.100 | What might even be about somebody,

00:18:55.220 | like somebody's pissed you off

00:18:57.540 | and you find that you're all upset.

00:18:59.860 | You need to kind of stop and clarify your thoughts

00:19:01.580 | instead of just sitting there and feeling angry.

00:19:03.620 | And like, wait, why am I feeling angry?

00:19:05.460 | What's this really about?

00:19:06.460 | And so instead of just sitting there on your sofa stewing,

00:19:10.980 | it's just like, open your thing, whatever it is,

00:19:14.380 | your paper notebook, or in my case,

00:19:16.580 | I just use a plain text file.

00:19:18.420 | I just open up a plain text file and I just start typing.

00:19:20.900 | There's no discipline to it at all.

00:19:22.340 | It's just like, what the hell?

00:19:24.260 | I am so angry right now.

00:19:25.460 | Why am I angry?

00:19:26.940 | Because this person did that thing.

00:19:29.500 | Well, so what?

00:19:30.340 | Why does that matter?

00:19:31.180 | Well, because this.

00:19:32.260 | And I'll just kind of have this dialogue with myself,

00:19:35.340 | like I said, and like kind of challenging and pushing back.

00:19:37.500 | I hear that, I don't know much about this,

00:19:41.180 | but I've heard that this is similar

00:19:43.380 | to something called cognitive behavioral therapy.

00:19:46.740 | And it is known to be one of the few things

00:19:50.060 | that works for people with depression or anxiety

00:19:54.860 | or other major life problems.

00:19:57.380 | Cognitive behavioral therapy works wonders.

00:19:59.660 | I heard that a couple of times.

00:20:00.620 | And when I just looked into what it is,

00:20:02.980 | it sounds like it's what I've been doing in my journal

00:20:05.180 | since I was a teenager.

00:20:06.220 | So I could say it in my very undisciplined way

00:20:10.220 | that it's worked wonders for me.

00:20:12.060 | And most of the major life decisions that I've made

00:20:16.180 | have come from that process.

00:20:18.460 | - It sounds a little bit also like rubber duck debugging.

00:20:21.740 | I don't know if you're familiar as a way to make decisions.

00:20:24.780 | I think you wrote a post about getting mentors advice

00:20:28.300 | without actually ever speaking with them.

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00:23:08.580 | - Should we tell the listeners quickly,

00:23:10.660 | so the rubber ducking comes from,

00:23:13.140 | first it's from back in the day

00:23:14.460 | when people had those big monitors,

00:23:16.980 | the big CRT monitors on their desktop computers.

00:23:20.020 | - That you could actually put something on top.

00:23:21.340 | - Yeah, where you could put things on top.

00:23:22.820 | And so computer programmers started a habit

00:23:25.980 | of putting a little rubber duck on top of their monitor.

00:23:29.740 | And whenever they were trying to get work

00:23:31.500 | through a programming problem where they're stuck,

00:23:34.460 | there's like, okay, tell the duck.

00:23:36.340 | And so you'd say to the duck,

00:23:37.500 | like the reason I'm stuck is because I can't figure this.

00:23:41.420 | Well, then why can't you figure out that?

00:23:43.180 | Because what I'm trying to get is the instances table

00:23:46.660 | to match with the something table.

00:23:48.060 | Well, why can't you do that?

00:23:49.300 | Because it's, and so yeah, explain it to the rubber duck

00:23:51.900 | and it'll help you clarify your thoughts.

00:23:53.860 | Yeah, so that's definitely what I'm doing

00:23:55.260 | in my journal, then changing the subject.

00:23:57.620 | You said the mentors that, yeah, I often,

00:24:01.580 | when journaling, I'll ask myself,

00:24:04.500 | like, what would Seth Godin say?

00:24:06.940 | Like he's a hero of mine and he's such a wise guy

00:24:10.340 | beyond his marketing that he talks about.

00:24:13.460 | He's just wise in general.

00:24:14.660 | Like his approach to life is very thoughtful and measured.

00:24:17.300 | And he's a friend that I could call,

00:24:20.380 | but before calling him, I ask myself,

00:24:23.060 | if I were to call Seth right now,

00:24:24.900 | what would he probably say?

00:24:26.580 | Like, I know what he would say.

00:24:27.940 | He would say this.

00:24:28.780 | And I'd like write that.

00:24:29.620 | And then that ends up helping me get to a good solution

00:24:33.700 | for myself without ever having to bother Seth Godin.

00:24:36.740 | So yeah, I wrote a post about that.

00:24:38.300 | Like how to ask your mentors for help

00:24:40.340 | or something like that.

00:24:41.180 | And I just basically described this process,

00:24:42.620 | like ask yourself what the mentors would say.

00:24:46.020 | - I love it.

00:24:46.860 | I'll try to find all the links to everything we talk about,

00:24:48.300 | put it in the show notes so people can find it.

00:24:50.300 | I met someone once and I offered

00:24:52.660 | to help them with a challenge.

00:24:54.500 | And they said, no, no, no, I don't want your help yet.

00:24:56.620 | I have a rule.

00:24:57.460 | I try to spend 15 minutes at least on my own,

00:24:59.420 | trying to solve something before I ask for anyone

00:25:01.620 | to spend their time to help me out.

00:25:03.100 | And I was like, oh, wow.

00:25:04.500 | To use one of your phrases,

00:25:05.500 | this person is making it easy for me to say no on my own.

00:25:08.940 | And so it's something I've tried to do in my own life

00:25:12.460 | is I feel like plenty of us are overwhelmed.

00:25:15.460 | We have lots of stuff going on

00:25:16.740 | and we could talk in a bit about how to slow down

00:25:20.260 | and say no and only focus on the things you care about.

00:25:22.940 | But one way that I can kind of contribute to the problem

00:25:26.220 | or relieving the problem is just trying not to ask everyone

00:25:29.420 | to help me out until I've tried to do some work on my own.

00:25:32.340 | And my snarky reply to close friends

00:25:35.660 | and family members for years was always the,

00:25:38.020 | let me Google that for you site if you've ever been there,

00:25:40.620 | which was someone texts you and they're like,

00:25:43.020 | do you know a good Italian restaurant in Dallas?

00:25:45.460 | And I'm like, yeah, Italian restaurant.

00:25:47.860 | Like you could just search for these things.

00:25:49.580 | I've never even been to Dallas.

00:25:50.780 | Now I'm hoping that the world will slowly adopt a practice

00:25:53.900 | of trying to do a little bit of homework

00:25:56.020 | before asking people.

00:25:57.500 | 'Cause it's easy for me to text back my sister or my mom.

00:25:59.900 | Hey, why don't you do a Google search before asking?

00:26:02.220 | It's much harder to text a stranger

00:26:03.980 | or a business acquaintance back and be like,

00:26:05.820 | hey, could you actually just try before emailing me?

00:26:08.740 | But there were a couple of things we talked about

00:26:09.940 | that I wanna loop back to.

00:26:11.060 | So it's gonna be a bit of a zigzag conversation.

00:26:13.740 | Journaling allows you to come up with lots of options.

00:26:16.500 | You know, you talked about decision-making.

00:26:18.020 | If there's one option, it's not true.

00:26:20.100 | If there's two, it's a dilemma,

00:26:21.340 | but you wanna get to a place where there's a lot.

00:26:23.500 | One of the challenges I have,

00:26:24.940 | and I think a lot of people listening have,

00:26:26.540 | is actually on the other direction,

00:26:28.340 | which is getting into this analysis paralysis.

00:26:31.180 | So a few weeks ago, I did an episode about insurance

00:26:34.620 | and I went down this crazy rabbit hole

00:26:36.820 | of how do I get the best homeowners

00:26:39.500 | and auto and umbrella policies for my life,

00:26:43.180 | which led to, oh, there's all these carriers.

00:26:44.980 | I should go get a quote from all of them

00:26:46.660 | and I should analyze all these details.

00:26:48.260 | And believe me, I did not have a dilemma or A or B.

00:26:52.100 | It was like, there weren't enough letters in the alphabet

00:26:54.340 | to define the option set I had.

00:26:57.620 | And then you're like, oh, well, if I go with this one,

00:26:59.500 | it's a little bit more expensive.

00:27:00.620 | But if our SUV breaks down,

00:27:02.500 | they guarantee that I could rent an SUV

00:27:05.020 | instead of just an economy car.

00:27:06.420 | But this other one offers this other feature.

00:27:08.380 | And for me, it was a struggle.

00:27:10.700 | I searched to see if you'd written about this

00:27:12.460 | because I was like, ah,

00:27:13.300 | I know someone who might have some advice.

00:27:14.700 | Then I tried to think about what would Derek say

00:27:16.740 | and I couldn't really come up with it.

00:27:17.860 | So I'll just ask you,

00:27:19.580 | how would you suggest people think about making decisions

00:27:23.540 | when there are too many options and they're struggling?

00:27:26.420 | - Oof.

00:27:27.260 | For me, one option usually leaps out

00:27:32.260 | as the one that makes me feel the best.

00:27:36.220 | And it's not always rational and that's okay.

00:27:39.660 | And then if it doesn't,

00:27:41.820 | I just pick one that seems to rationally work.

00:27:45.100 | And then it's a mindset that picking anything

00:27:48.140 | is better than picking nothing.

00:27:50.380 | If it's something that you have to pick.

00:27:52.340 | Okay, so wait, what do I mean by that?

00:27:53.940 | There's a great value in launching, for example.

00:27:57.620 | I've met some people

00:27:58.460 | that have been working on their book for so long

00:28:01.300 | without launching it, without calling it complete,

00:28:04.340 | that they're reaping none of the benefits

00:28:06.780 | of having the book out there in the public, right?

00:28:10.380 | So at some point with anything you're creating,

00:28:12.540 | whether it's a blog post or a decision,

00:28:16.260 | you realize, all right,

00:28:17.100 | well, I just have to finish this thing.

00:28:21.180 | I have to finish this choice.

00:28:22.380 | I have to finish this article that I'm working on.

00:28:25.940 | And once you put great value onto finishing or deciding,

00:28:30.940 | then what you do is you just get into a different mindset

00:28:34.500 | about the benefit of putting it out there,

00:28:36.940 | the benefit of finishing.

00:28:38.140 | Like say, you can make any choice great

00:28:42.420 | through just deciding to make the best of it.

00:28:44.540 | Okay, but wait, sorry, that answer was a little mushy.

00:28:48.140 | - Related to this insurance thing,

00:28:49.740 | I'm looking back and I'm thinking there were two moments

00:28:53.100 | where I could have done what you suggested

00:28:54.560 | that would have made it a lot faster.

00:28:56.840 | And I probably would have felt a lot better.

00:28:58.220 | One was for some reason, and I can't really explain why,

00:29:01.800 | maybe it's the positive reviews,

00:29:04.260 | maybe it's the word of mouth, the consumer reports rating,

00:29:06.620 | just felt like USAA as an insurance carrier

00:29:09.740 | was where I kind of just wanted to end up.

00:29:11.860 | Every time I was about to hit the recalculate button,

00:29:13.940 | I was like, come on, just be really competitive

00:29:15.840 | so I can just be done with this.

00:29:17.860 | So one answer was, if you have that feeling,

00:29:20.620 | just own it and be like,

00:29:21.700 | yeah, it might be a little more expensive,

00:29:23.200 | let's move forward.

00:29:24.140 | That was one.

00:29:25.380 | The alternative version, let's say you don't have that,

00:29:28.360 | is, well, right now the problem

00:29:30.820 | was that we were using one carrier

00:29:32.660 | and they just couldn't continue to insure the house

00:29:35.840 | because the house had kind of appreciated

00:29:37.340 | and it wasn't a good fit.

00:29:38.460 | So we needed to move carriers.

00:29:40.780 | Instead of making it about the big decision

00:29:43.460 | of we have to have a new insurance carrier,

00:29:45.540 | so this is not a do I need this or not,

00:29:48.300 | we absolutely need this.

00:29:49.940 | But instead of trying to find the best possible thing,

00:29:52.640 | I could have picked the first carrier

00:29:54.940 | that could do what we needed

00:29:56.740 | and put that policy into place,

00:29:58.600 | be done with the policy that I have now

00:30:00.380 | that I know is not good,

00:30:01.980 | and then decided, okay,

00:30:04.420 | is it worth continuing to evaluate the landscape?

00:30:08.020 | Because what I was doing was I actually had two problems.

00:30:10.940 | I had, I have something that doesn't work

00:30:13.180 | and I need something that works

00:30:14.780 | and I'm also interested in finding the best thing.

00:30:18.900 | And because I was solving them both at the same time,

00:30:21.660 | I was actually delaying getting the thing in place

00:30:24.380 | that I needed to do more urgently.

00:30:25.700 | And if I had just picked anything,

00:30:27.280 | it might have been more expensive,

00:30:28.940 | but I would have been done with problem A

00:30:31.200 | and I probably could have said,

00:30:32.580 | is it really worth trying to solve problem B right now?

00:30:35.140 | But when I put the two problems together,

00:30:37.520 | I made it seem like they were equally as important.

00:30:39.900 | So if you could just pick anything that is good

00:30:42.440 | and then decide whether you wanna go on the quest for great

00:30:45.260 | or go on to another quest for good in your life.

00:30:47.660 | I don't know.

00:30:48.620 | That's me trying to philosophize your feedback,

00:30:50.940 | but I could have completely butchered it.

00:30:53.320 | - No, you nailed it.

00:30:54.500 | That was wonderful.

00:30:55.460 | All right, Chris, I've got three topics

00:30:57.940 | you just brought up.

00:30:59.540 | - Okay.

00:31:00.380 | - I'm gonna name them first

00:31:01.620 | so we can remember to come back to them.

00:31:03.620 | Number one, the coin toss.

00:31:05.180 | Number two, the paradox of choice.

00:31:08.120 | Number three, theory versus practice.

00:31:12.280 | Okay, coin toss.

00:31:14.920 | The reason to flip a coin when you're making a decision

00:31:19.320 | is not to let the heads or the tails actually decide it.

00:31:22.920 | It's to notice how you feel when the coin is in the air.

00:31:27.000 | Like you just said about USAA.

00:31:28.880 | If you were to do the coin toss with USAA,

00:31:31.520 | you would have been like, oh, please land on USAA.

00:31:33.760 | And as soon as you notice that feeling in yourself,

00:31:36.700 | it's like, okay, I think I've just decided.

00:31:38.820 | It isn't actually the coin that decides.

00:31:41.140 | It's the pressure of that like, oh God, here it comes.

00:31:45.380 | Here's the final decision.

00:31:47.980 | And then you notice which one

00:31:49.340 | you're actually leaning towards.

00:31:51.340 | Okay, that is to be valued because emotions matter.

00:31:54.860 | I've sometimes chosen, say like,

00:31:56.620 | the more expensive internet service provider

00:32:00.180 | because I think they're more ethical or they're cooler

00:32:02.740 | and I just feel better about giving my money

00:32:05.060 | to that company even though it's more expensive

00:32:07.900 | than the other choice.

00:32:09.100 | Okay, so that's the coin toss.

00:32:10.860 | - I'm like thinking with the coin toss,

00:32:12.420 | I'm like, I want to create this rule around it

00:32:14.100 | where I have to commit to the decision

00:32:16.560 | of whatever lands on the coin toss

00:32:18.860 | unless I stop at midair and decide.

00:32:22.140 | So it's like, you know, I could flip the coin

00:32:24.620 | and if my gut says what it is,

00:32:25.940 | I can grab it out of midair and say, done.

00:32:27.900 | I don't have to abide by the rule, I've decided.

00:32:29.920 | - I wonder if it loses its value

00:32:33.380 | if you don't commit to it being a decider.

00:32:37.100 | I just say, let's flip a coin and see how my gut feels.

00:32:39.420 | I feel like the first few times, maybe it'll work.

00:32:41.780 | By the end, I'm like,

00:32:42.620 | well, now I just know I'm just flipping a coin.

00:32:44.340 | I'm trying to think of ways

00:32:45.300 | to make the coin toss higher stakes

00:32:47.740 | so it forces that kind of deep-rooted gut instinct

00:32:51.220 | out faster.

00:32:53.100 | - Well, it's a fun idea.

00:32:54.220 | I disagree.

00:32:55.060 | I think you should always go ultimately

00:32:56.660 | with the one that makes you feel the best.

00:32:58.580 | - Okay.

00:32:59.400 | - Your thoughts matter, your feelings matter.

00:33:00.340 | You need to feel good about the choices you've made in life.

00:33:03.620 | You can't find yourself working at a job

00:33:06.840 | and every day for eight hours a day

00:33:08.620 | going somewhere where you're like,

00:33:09.900 | ugh, yeah, it's the right choice.

00:33:12.860 | (laughs)

00:33:13.700 | You know, the coin said, here I am, damn it.

00:33:18.020 | So you've got to feel good about your choices.

00:33:19.740 | You can add rational reasons later,

00:33:21.700 | but the feelings are harder to adapt.

00:33:24.340 | Sometimes it's the reverse.

00:33:25.420 | Sometimes you make a choice because it's the right thing.

00:33:28.300 | Okay, so "Paradox of Choice."

00:33:30.000 | There's a wonderful book about this thing.

00:33:33.120 | You said that you were looking to my site

00:33:34.520 | to see if I'd written about this.

00:33:36.240 | You need to look to the book called

00:33:38.240 | "Paradox of Choice" by Barry Schwartz, S-C-H-W-A-R-T-Z.

00:33:43.240 | Brilliant masterpiece of a book about exactly this,

00:33:48.160 | about having too many options and what do you do.

00:33:51.040 | And the gist, if you had to narrow the book down

00:33:54.360 | to a few sentences, is that when we consider every option,

00:33:59.360 | we may technically make a better choice,

00:34:03.160 | but we will feel worse about it

00:34:05.440 | because we're too aware of all of the other choices

00:34:09.040 | we could have made.

00:34:10.720 | So the advice, and let me pause to say,

00:34:14.460 | the advice which is coming from a PhD psychologist

00:34:18.720 | who has been studying the science of decision-making

00:34:22.520 | for many, many, many years, the advice,

00:34:24.660 | after all of his studies and research into the subject,

00:34:27.240 | is that we should choose to satisfice, not maximize.

00:34:32.000 | He said people, when they're making decisions,

00:34:33.760 | are either satisficing or maximizing.

00:34:37.000 | So maximizing is what you were just doing

00:34:38.820 | with the insurance where you dive deep down the rabbit hole

00:34:41.640 | and you look deeply into every option

00:34:44.400 | and you really kind of kill yourself over it

00:34:47.520 | and you maximize to make the best possible decision.

00:34:51.520 | Satisficing is, in short, it's saying good enough.

00:34:56.380 | It's like, I need a new insurance policy.

00:34:58.860 | I'm gonna give myself one hour to pick a new one.

00:35:01.600 | You look at some options.

00:35:02.440 | You're like, okay, I'm picking this, good enough.

00:35:05.280 | So what he said is that people who satisfice

00:35:09.800 | feel much better about the decision they make,

00:35:12.500 | psychologically, the way our brains work.

00:35:15.000 | We feel better when we just make a decision,

00:35:17.340 | stick with it, and don't try

00:35:19.400 | to make the best possible decision.

00:35:22.040 | - What about people who love,

00:35:23.880 | like get intense joy out of that process?

00:35:27.540 | 'Cause I think that's the crazy thing

00:35:29.200 | is when I was going through this,

00:35:31.680 | my wife was like, you have a lot of stuff to do.

00:35:33.560 | Why are you still researching insurance?

00:35:35.880 | And I was like, I don't know.

00:35:36.720 | I built a new table.

00:35:37.720 | I built a new comparison matrix and I was loving it.

00:35:40.740 | And what was going through my head

00:35:42.760 | wasn't the $500 a year I'd save.

00:35:46.060 | And I don't even know if it was the joy

00:35:48.120 | of knowing I made the best outcome.

00:35:50.600 | You know, you mentioned earlier,

00:35:51.720 | following your kind of intellectual curiosity.

00:35:54.240 | And I was just generally very excited

00:35:57.960 | to understand the nuance of this whole space.

00:36:01.200 | I get a lot of joy knowing that someone could

00:36:03.760 | ask me about it, I could give them a recommendation.

00:36:06.160 | And I'm very jealous when someone says,

00:36:09.240 | hey, I'm thinking about this thing.

00:36:10.800 | And I'm like, oh, I did all this research.

00:36:12.240 | This is what I said.

00:36:13.080 | They're like, great, I'll do that.

00:36:13.900 | I'm like, that's all you need.

00:36:15.160 | You just needed me to talk for one sentence

00:36:17.280 | and now you're done and you made a decision.

00:36:19.040 | And I'm very jealous of those people, but I do enjoy it.

00:36:22.760 | It's not totally wasted time if you enjoy the process, fair?

00:36:27.520 | - Right.

00:36:28.960 | Yeah, see, it's funny.

00:36:30.040 | You're talking about something different

00:36:31.520 | that I think was not included in that book,

00:36:33.440 | which is the benefit of kind of you taking one for the team.

00:36:38.440 | Like you doing the hard work so that others don't have to

00:36:43.400 | and getting like a deeper kind of community

00:36:47.240 | joy from how much you're sharing.

00:36:49.240 | Like, yeah, it's wonderful that people like you

00:36:53.840 | do all the hard work like that every now and then

00:36:55.960 | and dive down those rabbit holes.

00:36:57.400 | So people like the rest of us can just say,

00:37:00.440 | I need new, well, Chris already figured it out.

00:37:02.320 | So hold on, let me just see.

00:37:03.540 | All right, Chris chose this.

00:37:04.960 | All right, I'm just choosing that.

00:37:06.040 | There, problem done.

00:37:07.600 | It's like, because you maximized, we can satisfy.

00:37:10.640 | You know, we can say, all right, I'll let him choose.

00:37:12.480 | I do that so many times in life with say,

00:37:15.680 | what'd you say, the best Italian restaurant in Dallas

00:37:18.440 | that I'll just look, okay, what did somebody else say?

00:37:21.320 | Oh, look, somebody's done an article

00:37:23.600 | about the seven best Italian restaurants in Dallas.

00:37:26.080 | Which do they choose?

00:37:26.920 | All right, I'm just gonna go to that one then.

00:37:28.480 | Problem solved.

00:37:29.320 | When I moved to Los Angeles years ago,

00:37:32.040 | I'd never really been to Los Angeles,

00:37:33.840 | but my girlfriend at the time

00:37:36.000 | had just signed up for film school down there.

00:37:37.640 | I was like, I'm gonna go with her.

00:37:38.720 | So I emailed 10 people I knew that lived in LA

00:37:42.080 | and I said, hey, what neighborhood should I live in?

00:37:46.000 | And everybody had different answers,

00:37:48.160 | but Santa Monica was on nine out of the 10 people's lists.

00:37:51.880 | It's, oh, you know, Palisades, whatever,

00:37:54.640 | Pasadena, Santa Monica, somebody else would say Venice,

00:37:58.120 | Santa Monica, Century City,

00:38:00.580 | but Santa Monica was on everybody's list.

00:38:02.200 | So I didn't even look at any other options.

00:38:04.100 | I just went straight to Santa Monica,

00:38:05.920 | went to the real estate office there

00:38:08.120 | and just said, what do you got?

00:38:10.060 | And I didn't look anywhere else

00:38:11.240 | because I deferred to my friend's choices.

00:38:14.000 | So yeah, other people did the hard work

00:38:15.920 | of living there for years and discovering every neighborhood

00:38:18.640 | and learning the hard way.

00:38:20.120 | I just took the benefit of their work.

00:38:21.680 | So yes, you diving down your rabbit hole

00:38:24.720 | and benefiting the rest of the world by doing so is great.

00:38:27.200 | And I love just using other people's work for that.

00:38:29.800 | But also you were having fun.

00:38:32.280 | You say that you were sweating it,

00:38:33.520 | but part of you was just enjoying it.

00:38:35.000 | You're like, this is fascinating.

00:38:36.640 | Oh my God, look at all these different options.

00:38:38.400 | I'm gonna make a grid.

00:38:40.040 | You know, this is giving me some kind of joy

00:38:41.900 | to lay out all my options in a spreadsheet

00:38:44.480 | and find out about this and wow, this is fascinating.

00:38:46.960 | You know, like this one won't give you an SUV replacement.

00:38:50.440 | They'll just give you a car.

00:38:51.760 | This one won't do this.

00:38:52.780 | Wow, there are so many parameters here

00:38:54.760 | I hadn't noticed before.

00:38:56.440 | So computer programmers do this a lot, of course,

00:38:59.320 | when you're looking for a tech solution to something

00:39:03.600 | and you look out to the world of open source software

00:39:05.880 | and you're like, okay, oh my God,

00:39:07.120 | there are like nine different calendar apps

00:39:10.360 | that I could use.

00:39:11.400 | Okay, let me dive into the pros and cons of each one.

00:39:13.880 | And then you might find this less popular one

00:39:17.240 | that serves your needs exactly.

00:39:19.480 | But boy, it was kind of interesting

00:39:20.640 | to learn about all the different features

00:39:22.040 | that you hadn't even considered in these.

00:39:23.600 | And we might just enjoy that process.

00:39:26.520 | And somebody might say it's a stupid use of your time,

00:39:28.520 | but if you're finding it fascinating,

00:39:30.640 | well then you're kind of like choosing this

00:39:32.600 | over watching a movie, right?

00:39:35.800 | Like other people would just sit there

00:39:37.000 | and stare at a TV screen.

00:39:38.680 | You're engaging with the world

00:39:40.240 | and getting entertainment out of doing this.

00:39:43.320 | And lastly, my example that I got made fun of a lot for

00:39:47.040 | was when I was running my company CD Baby for 10 years,

00:39:51.360 | I was the 100% owner, I was the CEO,

00:39:55.040 | and yet whenever we needed a new computer for the office,

00:39:59.640 | which happened about 50 times,

00:40:01.000 | I had 85 employees and we had about 50 computers

00:40:03.300 | in the office, I would build the computer myself.

00:40:06.620 | I would go down to the electronics store,

00:40:09.020 | get the motherboard, pick out the CPU,

00:40:11.540 | the graphics card, the hard drive,

00:40:13.860 | the case, the power supply.

00:40:15.580 | And I would thoroughly enjoy being in the office at night

00:40:20.220 | after everybody had left,

00:40:21.900 | building a computer while listening to music.

00:40:24.900 | And once it was all put together,

00:40:26.220 | I would install Linux onto it and get it working.

00:40:28.980 | And then the morning I'd set it up at somebody's desk

00:40:31.500 | and be like, ah, that was fun.

00:40:34.460 | And somebody teased me years later saying sarcastically,

00:40:38.300 | like, yeah, that was a good use of the CEO's time.

00:40:42.140 | And I said, it fucking was.

00:40:44.100 | It was a great use of my time because I loved doing it.

00:40:48.020 | Like, I wouldn't wanna outsource that joy to somebody else.

00:40:51.220 | Like, I really loved those evenings at the office

00:40:53.840 | putting a computer together.

00:40:54.940 | I find it very peaceful.

00:40:56.780 | Some people do crossword puzzles for that same joy, right?

00:40:59.980 | You don't outsource the crossword puzzle

00:41:01.660 | to have somebody else solve it for you.

00:41:04.460 | You do it yourself 'cause you enjoy it.

00:41:06.660 | - I think it's a message

00:41:07.500 | that we probably haven't shared enough in this show

00:41:11.500 | is that if you really enjoy that process,

00:41:13.380 | sometimes it's stressful.

00:41:14.420 | I've had moments where I'm like an hour

00:41:16.500 | into comparing the distribution of one to five ratings

00:41:19.580 | on Korean restaurants in LA,

00:41:21.460 | and I should have stopped and flipped a coin.

00:41:23.820 | It wouldn't have mattered.

00:41:24.740 | And sometimes I think it's too much,

00:41:26.260 | but there are times where it's really enjoyable.

00:41:28.260 | And even when it's a lot, it can be fun.

00:41:31.060 | And I like the fact that you've been able

00:41:33.020 | to prioritize pursuing things that make you happy

00:41:35.460 | and that you enjoy and stimulate you intellectually.

00:41:37.800 | And I think we probably don't do that enough

00:41:40.440 | as an average person in society.

00:41:42.140 | - Hey, wait, Chris.

00:41:42.980 | So remember when I like named those three things,

00:41:44.980 | the coin toss, the paradox of choice,

00:41:46.340 | there was a third one.

00:41:47.180 | - Theory versus practice.

00:41:48.020 | - Yes, we haven't done that yet.

00:41:49.340 | So many times I've found myself in my journal

00:41:54.540 | thinking maybe this, maybe that.

00:41:58.580 | And you realize there's so many things in life

00:42:01.260 | that in theory sound good,

00:42:05.580 | but in practice are not or vice versa.

00:42:08.600 | And so I've learned the hard way

00:42:10.420 | that you have to just try these things.

00:42:12.320 | You have to just go do it.

00:42:14.220 | And it even comes with choices like yours about insurance.

00:42:16.820 | I'm really glad that you gave that example of like,

00:42:18.940 | maybe I'll just pick one now just to get out of my situation

00:42:23.500 | and then if I don't like it, I'll change again.

00:42:26.540 | That to me is a beautiful little example

00:42:29.100 | of trying something in practice instead of just in theory.

00:42:33.140 | So there have been a major life decisions I've made,

00:42:38.140 | like moving here to New Zealand.

00:42:40.140 | That came from the similar kind of dilemma.

00:42:42.060 | I was sitting in Singapore with my ex who said,

00:42:45.740 | I hate it here.

00:42:46.860 | And I was like, okay, so where else can we go?

00:42:49.340 | New Zealand seems nice.

00:42:50.300 | We've never actually lived there,

00:42:51.400 | but it seems like a nice place to be like, let's try it.

00:42:55.140 | Like we'll never know what New Zealand is like

00:42:58.340 | unless we just try it.

00:42:59.740 | And it took a few months of paperwork to become a resident

00:43:02.860 | in order to stay long enough to really try living here.

00:43:04.840 | But you have to do these things in practice,

00:43:06.900 | not just in theory, just to see what it's really like

00:43:09.460 | with the understanding that I'm still just trying it.

00:43:12.700 | This isn't like a final decision.

00:43:14.260 | This is still just, I'm going to try this option,

00:43:16.800 | but I need to try it in practice, not just in theory.

00:43:21.800 | - Has that changed?

00:43:23.400 | You talk about moving and living different places.

00:43:25.740 | You have a family or you have a child.

00:43:27.400 | How does that affect your ability

00:43:28.860 | to live this kind of nomadic lifestyle

00:43:31.160 | or put these theories into practice or has it not?

00:43:35.200 | - It has.

00:43:36.040 | We let the tangent go earlier,

00:43:38.060 | but you said something about the fact that I went to India

00:43:40.800 | for only 10 days instead of deciding to move there.

00:43:43.640 | Dude, if my kid wasn't in school in New Zealand right now,

00:43:47.480 | and if his mother didn't work for the New Zealand government

00:43:49.800 | and needs to be here, I would be living in India right now.

00:43:53.640 | I loved that trip so much.

00:43:55.140 | I just wanted to cancel my return flight home.

00:43:57.980 | I met so many wonderful people there.

00:43:59.500 | It was one of those moments in my life.

00:44:01.780 | And I've had a few of these where you go somewhere

00:44:05.580 | and it just like, everything in you is just a yes.

00:44:08.200 | You're like, oh my God, yes, this is where I need to be.

00:44:10.700 | And so a few times in my life, I've done this,

00:44:12.340 | where I just was visiting somewhere

00:44:14.540 | and I just canceled my return flight and stayed.

00:44:16.700 | I was living in Santa Monica, California,

00:44:19.940 | when I went to New York City for a friend's wedding.

00:44:23.200 | And it was a three-day trip.

00:44:25.140 | And I went there with just basically three days of clothes,

00:44:27.940 | attended the wedding.

00:44:29.680 | But just something about like getting out of the train

00:44:31.700 | in Penn Station and walking out into Manhattan,

00:44:34.140 | it was like (growls) the energy of the place.

00:44:35.840 | I was just like, oh, hell yeah,

00:44:37.500 | this is what I need right now.

00:44:39.340 | I was like, I could fly back to Santa Monica

00:44:41.700 | to get my clothes,

00:44:43.640 | but that would put a lot of pollution into the air.

00:44:46.540 | And I think my clothes aren't even worth that much.

00:44:48.940 | So I just canceled my return flight

00:44:50.840 | and bought some new clothes and stayed.

00:44:52.200 | And I lived in New York for a year.

00:44:53.640 | And so, yeah, I just had that moment last week in India

00:44:55.600 | of just like, damn, I just wanna stay here.

00:44:57.740 | This is where I need to be now.

00:44:59.240 | But yeah, I've got a kid who's 11 and in school now

00:45:02.340 | and his mom works for the government and here we are.

00:45:06.000 | So instead, I'm just going to use that restriction

00:45:08.900 | in my life, that creative restriction to work within that.

00:45:11.400 | So I'll just go visit more often.

00:45:13.060 | - There's been so much talk lately about AI

00:45:16.500 | and I love playing around with chat GPT,

00:45:18.900 | but the AI tool I actually use most is Notion AI.

00:45:22.240 | And I'm excited to be partnering with them

00:45:23.800 | for this episode.

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00:45:26.340 | I literally use Notion every day for notes, trip planning,

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00:45:30.840 | and most importantly, running this podcast.

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00:46:49.140 | I also did the same for our parents,

00:46:50.980 | and in total, after reviewing over 20,000 listings,

00:46:55.140 | we found over 1,000 pieces

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00:46:59.400 | Thankfully, it's all getting removed,

00:47:01.360 | and instead of spending 50-plus hours

00:47:03.560 | searching and filing requests to do that,

00:47:05.900 | it only took a few minutes

00:47:07.400 | because I used Delete.me from Abine,

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00:47:51.840 | I just wanna thank you, Quick,

00:47:54.580 | for listening to and supporting the show.

00:47:56.880 | Your support is what keeps this show going.

00:47:59.700 | To get all of the URLs, codes, deals,

00:48:02.420 | and discounts from our partners,

00:48:04.180 | you can go to allthehacks.com/deals.

00:48:07.740 | So please consider supporting those who support us.

00:48:11.020 | So I wanna come back to parenting at some point.

00:48:13.520 | A lot of these tangents,

00:48:14.440 | you said something earlier about heroes,

00:48:16.060 | and I know you have some perspective

00:48:18.300 | on how thinking about heroes can be valuable

00:48:20.980 | to thinking about what you wanna do.

00:48:23.420 | Maybe we could touch on that a little

00:48:24.980 | because I think it kind of ties together.

00:48:27.680 | Who are we?

00:48:28.520 | What do we care about?

00:48:29.540 | What do we wanna do with our lives and our careers?

00:48:31.960 | How do you think about that?

00:48:32.800 | You're in a place where you've both had success.

00:48:36.160 | It's given you a lot of creative flexibility

00:48:38.300 | with work and life and where you live.

00:48:40.220 | Maybe not everyone has that.

00:48:41.680 | Maybe people need to work towards that.

00:48:43.380 | But you've been fortunate to find the thing you love doing.

00:48:46.060 | And I don't think it was the thing you always thought.

00:48:47.940 | You've said that you feel

00:48:48.780 | like you most associate with a writer now,

00:48:50.980 | but I don't think it started like that.

00:48:52.260 | You didn't know that for many years.

00:48:55.020 | How did you come to that,

00:48:56.180 | and how might you have come to that sooner

00:48:58.880 | with the wisdom you have now?

00:49:00.140 | - Well, it's funny.

00:49:01.020 | People sometimes say, "Oh, well, dude, you're lucky.

00:49:04.260 | "You can just get up and go."

00:49:06.440 | I'm like, "But that's not luck.

00:49:07.800 | "That was, the life I'm living is the culmination

00:49:11.620 | "of like 180 little decisions along the way

00:49:14.340 | "since I was a teenager."

00:49:15.800 | Like at every little point,

00:49:18.040 | starting from when I was like 17 years old,

00:49:20.640 | I over and over again made the choice

00:49:23.220 | that gave me more freedom

00:49:24.520 | because I knew this was important to me.

00:49:25.780 | So even if I was, say, like offered a job

00:49:29.040 | that was going to pay more but give me less freedom,

00:49:33.420 | I said no.

00:49:34.260 | I chose the choice with more freedom

00:49:36.180 | even though it paid less money.

00:49:37.780 | I chose the romantic partner

00:49:39.920 | that also wanted to travel the world

00:49:42.740 | instead of getting romantically tangled

00:49:45.340 | with somebody who is bound to living next door

00:49:47.780 | to her parents.

00:49:48.620 | Even when I set up my company,

00:49:49.700 | the way that I set up like the organization

00:49:51.400 | and how it was run,

00:49:52.840 | I chose the choice that would give me more freedom.

00:49:54.700 | And God, so many things.

00:49:56.060 | Even like when I decided to sell my company,

00:49:59.000 | my number one criteria was like,

00:50:01.800 | "This is going to be a cash sale.

00:50:03.160 | You're going to pay me for this and then I'm gone.

00:50:04.900 | I'm not going to consult with you.

00:50:06.140 | I'm not going to stay around

00:50:07.300 | because I want the freedom."

00:50:08.500 | Everything along the way,

00:50:09.660 | every choice I made was to get me to this point.

00:50:13.380 | And so when somebody goes like,

00:50:14.480 | "Oh, you're just lucky."

00:50:15.660 | (laughs)

00:50:16.500 | I'm like, no, this is very deliberate.

00:50:18.760 | In fact, let's rewind even further.

00:50:20.980 | A friend gave me a really good example of this

00:50:25.140 | when he said he doesn't believe in luck.

00:50:29.440 | And I said,

00:50:31.040 | "Yeah, says the guy that was lucky to be born

00:50:33.720 | in a first world country,

00:50:35.320 | 'cause he was born in America."

00:50:36.560 | I said, "Yeah, easy for the American

00:50:38.120 | to say he doesn't believe in luck, right?

00:50:39.680 | Tell that to somebody in South Sudan."

00:50:41.840 | And he's just like, "Dude," he said,

00:50:43.720 | "I was born in America

00:50:45.800 | because my grandparents left everything they know in Poland

00:50:50.280 | and got on a ship for four months

00:50:53.600 | and sailed all the way to this country

00:50:55.260 | where they didn't speak the language.

00:50:57.060 | And it was incredibly hard,

00:50:58.200 | but they did it because they felt

00:50:59.480 | that would give their children a better future."

00:51:02.680 | And then even their children

00:51:04.360 | were like children of Polish immigrants

00:51:06.800 | that lived in a bad neighborhood,

00:51:09.940 | but worked really hard to save their money

00:51:11.920 | and spend nothing on pleasures

00:51:15.160 | so that they could save it for their kids.

00:51:17.600 | And then, yes, I grew up in Chicago or whatever

00:51:22.100 | with a nice life, but it took two generations, he said.

00:51:25.040 | So I think that's insulting to call that luck.

00:51:27.560 | He said, "My nice life

00:51:30.680 | is the result of like 80 years of sacrifice."

00:51:35.680 | I was like, "Okay, all right, very good point."

00:51:38.480 | So I still believe in luck, like crazy.

00:51:41.000 | I still think that most of my success was luck,

00:51:43.160 | but a lot of little decisions

00:51:45.040 | that you make on a day-to-day level

00:51:46.880 | can have huge impacts

00:51:49.160 | on the direction of the rest of your life.

00:51:51.000 | - You knew freedom was something

00:51:52.560 | you wanted to optimize for over years.

00:51:55.460 | I meet lots of people that maybe don't know that thing.

00:51:58.680 | The job comes, it offers to pay them more,

00:52:00.540 | it doesn't have the flexibility to travel,

00:52:02.280 | they don't know what they want in life.

00:52:03.960 | Is the answer to always optimize for freedom

00:52:07.040 | because it gives you more options in the future?

00:52:09.820 | Or is there a time where more financial resources

00:52:14.060 | can add more value?

00:52:15.260 | Or is there a framework you have

00:52:17.320 | for thinking about what do I want right now in my life?

00:52:21.360 | What do I look up to?

00:52:22.240 | Who do I wanna be?

00:52:23.780 | - Well, like we said at the very beginning,

00:52:24.840 | sometimes you need to ask yourself,

00:52:26.000 | what is my life lacking right now?

00:52:28.600 | And I need to steer that direction to get my balance back.

00:52:32.020 | But more often it helps to look at the common thread

00:52:37.020 | in your life so far,

00:52:40.880 | like your life choices so far.

00:52:42.720 | In reality, what has been something

00:52:45.680 | that through all the choices has made you the happiest?

00:52:49.600 | And maybe it's money.

00:52:50.920 | Maybe it's choosing the option

00:52:53.480 | that binds you tighter to people.

00:52:56.280 | Like maybe you're one of those lucky people

00:52:57.960 | that at the age of 19 found the love of your life.

00:53:01.240 | And ever since then,

00:53:03.600 | like your friends had crazy dating adventures,

00:53:05.880 | but you've been happy to be with one person

00:53:08.580 | since the age of 19.

00:53:10.520 | And you know that like that's given you

00:53:13.200 | such a deep happiness in life

00:53:14.680 | that can't compare to all these little digital nomads

00:53:18.440 | bragging about their freedom.

00:53:19.680 | And they're just like, yeah, but guess what?

00:53:21.200 | I've got something better than that.

00:53:23.460 | You need to just look back at your life

00:53:25.740 | to notice what continuously makes you the happiest

00:53:29.440 | and use that when making your future decisions as well.

00:53:32.400 | For me, it was freedom,

00:53:33.720 | but for somebody else, it might be money.

00:53:36.480 | They might say, you know what?

00:53:37.720 | The kind of life I want, I really want a swimming pool

00:53:41.600 | and I really want a Ferrari.

00:53:44.000 | I really want three houses.

00:53:46.600 | It's like, all right, then for what you really want,

00:53:49.720 | especially if that's in practice, not just in theory,

00:53:52.760 | if you've actually rented a Ferrari for a week

00:53:55.640 | and you know that owning that Ferrari

00:53:57.880 | will make you so much happier.

00:53:59.360 | If you know that in practice, not just in theory,

00:54:02.040 | then all right, you know,

00:54:03.600 | this is gonna help shape your decisions

00:54:05.160 | that you need to go for the option that pays more

00:54:07.760 | versus the freedom option.

00:54:09.080 | You shouldn't be a digital nomad

00:54:10.520 | if a Ferrari is super important to you

00:54:13.320 | because it's harder to bring that Ferrari

00:54:15.440 | to Thailand and Columbia.

00:54:18.100 | Not everybody should choose what I've chosen.

00:54:20.120 | That would be stupid.

00:54:21.080 | You should choose what you've noticed in practice

00:54:25.280 | makes you the happiest.

00:54:26.440 | - For anyone who doesn't know Derek's full story,

00:54:30.300 | you had the option when you sold your company

00:54:32.560 | to take all the money

00:54:33.480 | and live the life of Ferraris and swimming pools

00:54:35.600 | and wanted to kind of take that off the table

00:54:38.640 | as a future path that you could even be tempted by

00:54:41.640 | and gave it all away.

00:54:42.560 | So I thought that was kind of an ultimate hack in my mind

00:54:45.840 | of you didn't want the chance to ever be

00:54:48.800 | kind of turned towards a life

00:54:50.560 | that you weren't actually interested in,

00:54:52.000 | you just gave it away.

00:54:52.840 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:54:54.280 | I noticed from the past,

00:54:55.960 | I knew that choice would make me happier.

00:54:57.780 | It was really obvious

00:54:58.720 | when I was looking at all the different options

00:55:00.080 | of what to do when selling my company.

00:55:02.240 | And when I looked at the option of giving the money away,

00:55:06.160 | but in a way where I do continue to get a trickle

00:55:08.740 | paid out to me for the rest of my life,

00:55:10.280 | that option made me way happier because that made it

00:55:13.680 | so I couldn't get into this scenario

00:55:15.520 | where I had $20 million just sitting in the bank

00:55:17.440 | to do something stupid with.

00:55:18.440 | I didn't want that option.

00:55:19.720 | I knew that option would make me unhappy

00:55:23.720 | because that's too much money.

00:55:25.640 | But having half a million in the bank,

00:55:28.340 | that makes me happy, that gives me freedom,

00:55:30.520 | but that's not too much.

00:55:31.440 | It's not stupid money, just very nice.

00:55:34.160 | - And you mentioned to look back

00:55:35.320 | at who you've been and what you've done.

00:55:37.600 | There's something that I took away from you

00:55:38.880 | that I think has been really valuable

00:55:40.840 | is not just looking at the thoughts

00:55:43.640 | and the opinions you've had, but what you've done.

00:55:45.600 | Like looking at your actual actions.

00:55:48.080 | You've said, I think, that your actions

00:55:49.720 | actually reveal your values.

00:55:51.440 | Maybe we could talk on this just for a minute is,

00:55:54.240 | you know, it's interesting.

00:55:55.060 | Some people I know say,

00:55:55.900 | "Oh, I'm the person that does this."

00:55:57.900 | But if you're not actually doing it,

00:55:59.460 | are you really that person?

00:56:00.720 | So...

00:56:02.200 | - Right.

00:56:03.380 | You know, it's funny.

00:56:04.220 | I had to read that post again.

00:56:06.400 | I had almost forgotten about that one.

00:56:08.200 | I'll tell the little tale quickly.

00:56:09.560 | The article is at sive.rs/arv,

00:56:14.160 | A-R-V meaning actions reveal values.

00:56:16.720 | So I remember that short URL I gave it

00:56:18.560 | and I should revisit it now.

00:56:20.120 | Almost forgotten.

00:56:20.960 | So the story is, I was talking to an old friend of mine

00:56:24.100 | and I had been putting off

00:56:27.800 | starting this company called Muckwork.

00:56:30.320 | I had this idea, like literally the day

00:56:32.760 | after I sold Seedy Baby,

00:56:35.400 | I had this idea for my next company called Muckwork.

00:56:38.480 | And I got four months into it

00:56:39.900 | and then I paused to go explore the world instead.

00:56:43.160 | And here we are 10 years later.

00:56:45.740 | And I said to my friend,

00:56:46.580 | "Oh, I really want to do Muckwork.

00:56:48.120 | I really want to make this happen."

00:56:50.200 | And my friend goes,

00:56:51.040 | "No, you don't."

00:56:51.860 | What do you mean, no, I don't?

00:56:55.400 | I'm telling you.

00:56:56.240 | Yes, I do.

00:56:57.060 | And he goes, "No, you don't."

00:56:57.900 | I said, "Dude, you can't just tell me I don't.

00:57:00.200 | I'm telling you, I really want to do this."

00:57:02.360 | And he said, "No, you don't.

00:57:03.820 | You don't really want to do this.

00:57:04.880 | If you really wanted to do this,

00:57:06.300 | you would have made it happen right now."

00:57:08.520 | He said, "You keep putting it off,

00:57:11.160 | which to me makes it clear

00:57:12.720 | that you don't really want this thing.

00:57:15.220 | 'Cause otherwise you would have just done it.

00:57:16.600 | You wouldn't be saying I want to do it.

00:57:18.420 | You would do it if you really wanted to do it."

00:57:20.960 | Went, "Oh, wow."

00:57:22.480 | And he said, "Yeah, your actions reveal your values."

00:57:25.240 | And that's been so, so useful to me.

00:57:27.840 | Wow, actually, Chris, thanks for bringing this up

00:57:29.860 | because that is kind of in theory versus in practice

00:57:33.540 | revealed, put into action, right?

00:57:35.260 | It's don't think about what you want in theory.

00:57:38.380 | Look at what you've chosen in the past

00:57:41.380 | or look at what your actions have revealed

00:57:43.540 | your values to be.

00:57:45.220 | Ever since I read that post, I've just been reflecting it.

00:57:47.220 | I've been sharing it with people.

00:57:48.900 | Someone I talked to was like,

00:57:49.740 | "I really want to lose weight.

00:57:51.100 | I've wanted to lose weight for the last two years."

00:57:52.740 | And I'm like, "Do you know how?"

00:57:53.780 | And they're like, "Yeah, I know I need to exercise."

00:57:55.460 | And it's like, "Well, I don't think you really want to."

00:57:58.780 | Which is fine.

00:57:59.620 | I'm not trying to cast judgment.

00:58:00.980 | I'm just saying, you know how to do something.

00:58:03.140 | You say you really want to do it and you haven't done it.

00:58:05.180 | Maybe you don't want to do it and that's okay.

00:58:07.820 | And so it's made me reflect on my own life.

00:58:11.060 | Oh, if I say I really want to do this,

00:58:12.660 | I should either do it or stop saying it.

00:58:14.740 | Like there's no point in continuing to say

00:58:17.060 | you want to do something if you're not willing to do it.

00:58:19.980 | And that simple phrase of your actions

00:58:22.180 | revealing your values has made it easy for me

00:58:24.300 | to make one of two decisions.

00:58:26.060 | Either, yes, let's do it or let's stop

00:58:28.820 | and let's not put it at the top of the priority list

00:58:31.100 | and just continue to push it down.

00:58:32.620 | So that's been really helpful, thank you.

00:58:35.020 | - Yeah, I'm just thinking about how you could use that

00:58:37.180 | to do tests of something you think you want.

00:58:39.980 | See if you actually want it in practice.

00:58:41.740 | Like if somebody says, "I really want to lose weight."

00:58:43.460 | It's like, all right, well, let's spend at least one week

00:58:45.740 | where you eat nothing but protein twice a day

00:58:49.540 | and that's all you eat.

00:58:50.380 | Let's make sure that's what you really want.

00:58:52.020 | Or, "I really want a Ferrari."

00:58:54.660 | Okay, rent one for a week and see

00:58:57.900 | if it really makes you so much happier.

00:59:00.260 | Or, "I want to be a minimalist."

00:59:02.020 | Like, all right, well, leave everything behind

00:59:03.980 | and go spend a year living in Lithuania with nothing.

00:59:08.300 | And if you like it in practice, not just in theory,

00:59:11.700 | you got to try these things.

00:59:13.820 | - Sometimes it reveals itself to be a lot easier.

00:59:16.100 | Starting this podcast for me was one where I was like,

00:59:18.100 | I'd always wanted to do something.

00:59:19.220 | I tried a blog, I tried a newsletter

00:59:21.860 | and I'd never really found the thing.

00:59:24.660 | And once I put the podcast out there, I was like,

00:59:27.020 | oh, it's actually, it's not as hard as I had thought,

00:59:31.460 | but it wasn't until I realized that if I didn't do it,

00:59:34.220 | then I didn't really want to do it in the first place.

00:59:35.940 | So why not just force yourself to try?

00:59:38.020 | And you're like, oh, it's actually,

00:59:39.100 | I'm more capable of doing this, it's easier.

00:59:41.260 | So for me, I think it's just that framework

00:59:43.820 | has helped make it easier for me to do things

00:59:45.820 | that probably would have been harder

00:59:47.980 | before thinking with that perspective.

00:59:49.740 | And there's two things we haven't hit on

00:59:51.220 | that I think are really important lessons.

00:59:52.500 | One, you've written an entire book

00:59:54.260 | that I would encourage people to read

00:59:55.900 | about when to say yes and no.

00:59:58.020 | And I think someone might look at the title,

00:59:59.580 | which is hell yeah or no, and say,

01:00:01.420 | oh, you should always either be fervently excited

01:00:04.060 | or say no to everything.

01:00:05.620 | I actually know that your perspective is,

01:00:08.020 | it really depends on where you are in life.

01:00:09.740 | And if you are very overwhelmed with things,

01:00:12.060 | a philosophy of hell yeah now or no is great.

01:00:16.100 | But if you're earlier in your career,

01:00:18.220 | maybe you just say yes to everything.

01:00:19.580 | And I've written posts in the past

01:00:20.980 | about earlier in my career,

01:00:22.260 | why saying yes is just this magical thing

01:00:24.380 | that opens all these doors

01:00:26.020 | and lets you have new experiences.

01:00:28.100 | Is there any kind of clarifying things you wanna say

01:00:30.340 | on the kind of spectrum of say no to lots of things

01:00:33.900 | versus say yes to everything

01:00:35.500 | that might help people overwhelmed right now?

01:00:39.620 | - I'm really glad that you said that.

01:00:41.780 | Yeah, in fact, you might be the first person

01:00:43.660 | that's ever introduced that book

01:00:46.140 | by also giving that clarifier right away.

01:00:49.100 | 'Cause yeah, you're right.

01:00:49.940 | Almost everybody looks at that and says,

01:00:51.700 | yeah, man, hell yeah or no.

01:00:53.660 | I'm just gonna follow that from now on.

01:00:55.300 | And I get these emails from people

01:00:56.500 | that are like straight out of college going,

01:00:58.260 | yeah, thanks for saying that, man.

01:00:59.660 | I'm just saying no to everything

01:01:01.580 | I don't feel hell yeah about.

01:01:03.380 | And I'm like, wait a second, hold on.

01:01:04.940 | It's a tool for a specific situation.

01:01:07.940 | It's in the toolbox.

01:01:09.500 | It's that really unique wrench

01:01:11.620 | in case you need to get into the hole

01:01:13.220 | and do a Phillips head screw.

01:01:14.860 | In general, I think it's better to switch strategies

01:01:19.700 | for your correct situation.

01:01:21.300 | So yeah, straight out of college,

01:01:23.460 | or if you're young and say you want more opportunities

01:01:26.820 | than you have right now,

01:01:27.700 | you want more success than you have right now.

01:01:29.780 | Yeah, very often the best solution

01:01:31.620 | is to go say yes to everything.

01:01:33.820 | Take on as much as you can take on,

01:01:36.180 | try it all, overcommit yourself

01:01:39.100 | and say yes to everything

01:01:41.660 | because it's a little bit like lottery tickets.

01:01:43.900 | You never know which of these 12 things

01:01:47.060 | you're doing at once is going to reward you.

01:01:50.420 | And then when one of those 12 things

01:01:54.060 | you're doing simultaneously rewards you,

01:01:57.380 | then you can like double down on that,

01:01:59.380 | get rid of the other 11

01:02:00.700 | and throw everything you've got into this one thing.

01:02:03.860 | And then that's when you should raise the bar

01:02:06.820 | 'cause hell yeah I know basically just means that.

01:02:08.500 | It just means raise the bar all the way

01:02:11.140 | for what you'll accept.

01:02:12.420 | So you wanna do that if you're overwhelmed

01:02:15.220 | with opportunities and everybody wants a piece of you

01:02:18.900 | and you've got so much success coming your way,

01:02:21.980 | then that's when you need hell yeah or no

01:02:25.380 | as a reminder to raise the bar

01:02:27.060 | to let go of these other options

01:02:28.340 | because you've got so much going on.

01:02:29.900 | So yeah, so thanks for mentioning that.

01:02:31.260 | It's the very first sentence of the article

01:02:33.300 | but it often gets lost in that point.

01:02:35.260 | - It could also apply to just so much going on in life.

01:02:38.220 | You have two young kids, you have a job,

01:02:40.460 | you have a family

01:02:41.980 | and it wasn't that there were new business opportunities

01:02:45.100 | or financial opportunities,

01:02:46.180 | it's just life got so busy that to maintain sanity,

01:02:49.420 | you have to raise the bar.

01:02:50.900 | And I found that as a 20 something single person,

01:02:55.460 | people say, "Hey, you wanna go to this thing?"

01:02:56.780 | "Yeah, I wanna go to this thing."

01:02:57.740 | "Yeah, I wanna do this thing."

01:02:58.820 | It's easy.

01:02:59.740 | And then we have two kids,

01:03:01.420 | my wife and I can't go out to every dinner.

01:03:03.380 | We can't go to every concert.

01:03:05.420 | Some of our friends without children are like,

01:03:07.820 | "Oh, do you guys wanna go to Belize for the weekend?"

01:03:10.460 | We're like, "No, that's not a thing

01:03:12.100 | "we can just do on a whim."

01:03:13.340 | And we've created an intentional life

01:03:15.100 | that we're happy with,

01:03:16.060 | but it just means we can't do those things.

01:03:17.780 | So I think right now,

01:03:19.860 | this year is a little bit more of the year

01:03:21.460 | of the hell yeah or no than the say yes to everything.

01:03:24.340 | But it's not necessarily because of opportunity,

01:03:27.100 | it's just because the overwhelming nature of life

01:03:29.660 | with young children.

01:03:31.140 | - Thanks for mentioning that

01:03:31.980 | because sometimes I think in terms of like

01:03:33.900 | business career choices with hell yeah or no,

01:03:36.740 | but you're right.

01:03:37.580 | It's when you've got a kid,

01:03:39.500 | that's your hell yeah or your kids.

01:03:42.060 | And so that helps you say no to everything else.

01:03:44.140 | It helps to remember that you'd be better off

01:03:47.620 | putting more attention into your kids

01:03:50.740 | instead of spreading yourself thin with other things.

01:03:53.220 | In fact, I feel like I've unfairly mentioned

01:03:56.020 | moving too much in this conversation,

01:03:59.180 | but I was living in Singapore when my kid was born.

01:04:04.020 | And Singapore is a very exciting, distracting place.

01:04:08.100 | I knew a lot of people there.

01:04:09.180 | I was super social there.

01:04:10.980 | There's so much going on.

01:04:12.140 | And even its location within Asia is just a short hop

01:04:14.820 | to so many interesting places.

01:04:16.740 | And I noticed that the first few months of my kid's life,

01:04:20.100 | I was too distracted and I was being pulled

01:04:22.020 | different directions.

01:04:23.220 | So a big part of the choice to move

01:04:26.420 | to the middle of nowhere in New Zealand

01:04:28.860 | was to create an environment where I've just

01:04:32.740 | by side effect of my location,

01:04:35.540 | I've said no to everything else.

01:04:37.260 | So for my kid from age zero to 10 here in New Zealand,

01:04:40.020 | I was basically a full-time dad.

01:04:42.620 | I was in the middle of an island in the Pacific Ocean

01:04:45.500 | where just everything else in life became a no

01:04:48.700 | because I'm here with my kid and this is my hell yeah.

01:04:52.140 | - So I wanna get to children,

01:04:53.180 | but I have one quick question,

01:04:54.460 | which is can you talk about the saying no part?

01:04:56.300 | Because I think it's very easy for a lot of people to say,

01:04:59.260 | "This is the hell yeah thing."

01:05:00.940 | And then they get an email from someone's like,

01:05:02.340 | "Hey, I'd love to pick your brain about this thing.

01:05:04.540 | Do you wanna grab a coffee?"

01:05:06.100 | And I think saying no is something people find very hard.

01:05:09.780 | And they almost feel like I'm gonna look bad by saying no.

01:05:13.660 | People are gonna think that I don't care.

01:05:15.860 | And you've said a few things

01:05:16.900 | that have given me perspective there

01:05:19.500 | that I think would just be helpful

01:05:20.420 | for people to understand why saying no

01:05:23.060 | might be in some weird way polite or a better way to do it.

01:05:26.100 | - Yeah, my number one tip is write a form letter.

01:05:30.060 | Take 20 minutes and write a very nice generic no

01:05:37.140 | with a little elaboration like,

01:05:39.840 | "Hey, I'm so sorry.

01:05:41.380 | I'm completely focused on what I'm doing right now.

01:05:44.600 | My new book isn't finished yet

01:05:46.280 | and I need to put everything I've got into finishing this.

01:05:49.240 | I hope you'll understand.

01:05:50.420 | This isn't a permanent no,

01:05:51.720 | maybe at some point in the future.

01:05:53.320 | I really appreciate that you thought of me for this.

01:05:56.260 | I'm honored that you invited me."

01:05:58.460 | Whatever, like take 20 minutes

01:06:00.820 | and write a nice form letter response

01:06:04.620 | and then keep it handy in a word file or a text file

01:06:07.340 | or whatever you use,

01:06:08.340 | so that it might even be five times a day

01:06:10.580 | when you get people wanting to pick your brain

01:06:12.780 | or come to this thing or,

01:06:15.960 | "Hey dude, you got a minute to jump on a Zoom call."

01:06:18.380 | You could just copy paste, select all,

01:06:21.260 | Alt + Tab, Control + V, send.

01:06:23.340 | I do my form letter so many times a day.

01:06:26.540 | I just have a generic no.

01:06:28.140 | And what's nice is that people respond to it

01:06:30.300 | every now and then going,

01:06:31.140 | "Wow, that's the nicest no I've ever received.

01:06:34.540 | And dude, you're actually kind of inspiring

01:06:36.540 | how you're keeping your head down in your work.

01:06:38.240 | Man, I should be more like that."

01:06:39.820 | Like you think people are gonna be mad,

01:06:41.220 | but actually people often get inspired

01:06:44.360 | by how you say no to their random things.

01:06:47.580 | - I wouldn't necessarily put this in a form letter,

01:06:49.340 | but I heard you say once that you say no

01:06:52.020 | so that you leave your calendar open to say yes.

01:06:55.380 | And if someone's calendar is always full,

01:06:57.700 | it's almost like, "Oh man,

01:06:58.860 | this person isn't leaving enough time for exciting things."

01:07:02.020 | - When I just said that like for 10 years,

01:07:03.540 | I was basically a full-time dad.

01:07:04.940 | Dude, for 10 years, I didn't even have a calendar.

01:07:09.460 | There was like literally nothing on my calendar.

01:07:13.060 | Maybe like once a year we would take a flight

01:07:15.420 | to go see his grandparents.

01:07:17.260 | But yeah, for 10 years, I had nothing on my calendar app.

01:07:21.300 | And when somebody would wanna schedule,

01:07:23.000 | they're like, "Hey, can I call you next Thursday at three?"

01:07:25.740 | I'd go, "Eh, I'm not gonna bust open the calendar app.

01:07:30.740 | You'll be like the only thing in 2018

01:07:33.860 | on my entire calendar for the year."

01:07:35.180 | Like, no, just call.

01:07:36.260 | Whenever you wanna call, just call.

01:07:37.380 | I'm not gonna schedule.

01:07:38.940 | I don't do scheduling.

01:07:40.140 | I mean, now I do.

01:07:41.380 | My kid's 11 now and he's playing with friends.

01:07:43.740 | He doesn't need me around so much.

01:07:45.020 | So I'm not as much of a full-time dad

01:07:46.900 | as I was the last 10 years.

01:07:47.900 | But yeah, for 10 years,

01:07:48.860 | that was fun to just say no to all of it.

01:07:50.780 | And to have this completely empty calendar

01:07:52.980 | is such a good feeling.

01:07:53.900 | To wake up, God, that's one of my deepest joys,

01:07:56.100 | to wake up every day or to wake up any day

01:07:59.380 | and have nothing on my calendar for that whole day.

01:08:02.460 | Like the whole day is mine.

01:08:04.420 | It's such a nice feeling.

01:08:06.500 | - Let's talk about some of the perspective

01:08:08.380 | you had for parenting.

01:08:09.260 | Because I think right before we jumped in,

01:08:11.940 | I was sharing your post about parenting with my wife.

01:08:15.740 | And we were both like, "Wow."

01:08:17.060 | You kind of talk in it and I'll put it in the show notes.

01:08:19.220 | You can talk about it as much as you want.

01:08:20.740 | It's not very long.

01:08:21.980 | But how it seems like sometimes

01:08:25.300 | by focusing so much on your child,

01:08:27.540 | you're just completely selfless

01:08:29.180 | and you just can feel like work.

01:08:31.180 | But if you present it in a perspective,

01:08:33.220 | that's like, "Oh."

01:08:34.500 | By doing these things that many of us wish

01:08:37.380 | that we could do more for or with our children,

01:08:40.260 | you're actually doing things that will help you.

01:08:43.500 | And that perspective, I know plenty of people are like,

01:08:45.620 | "Oh, my partner's gone

01:08:47.060 | "and I've got childcare duty for the whole day."

01:08:50.060 | And I think there's a different perspective

01:08:52.660 | of ways that you could enrich your own life,

01:08:55.740 | not just by spending time with someone,

01:08:57.380 | but by teaching lessons and acting a different way.

01:09:00.860 | I'm curious how you thought of that,

01:09:02.020 | how long it took you to come to those realizations.

01:09:05.100 | - Remind me, where do you live now?

01:09:06.540 | - I live in the Bay Area.

01:09:08.100 | - Okay, so yeah, whenever I was on daddy duty,

01:09:10.620 | 'cause his mom and I always split it 50/50,

01:09:13.140 | every day or every week,

01:09:14.980 | we'd make sure that it was always 50/50.

01:09:16.580 | We didn't have a nanny or anything like that.

01:09:18.300 | It was always just the two of us.

01:09:19.500 | And we'd live far away from family.

01:09:21.420 | So there was nobody else to help.

01:09:22.620 | So it was either her on duty or me on duty.

01:09:25.660 | So she had her own way, right?

01:09:26.660 | So she likes watching things and she likes being inside.

01:09:29.540 | Like that's how she grew up.

01:09:30.380 | She's more indoorsy.

01:09:31.820 | So then I found it my duty,

01:09:34.180 | whenever I was on daddy duty, to take him out.

01:09:38.100 | No matter what the weather, even if it's raining,

01:09:39.980 | that was like my number one thing.

01:09:41.260 | Like, let's just get out.

01:09:42.940 | To satisfy my own curiosity,

01:09:46.420 | I would pick somewhere on the map that we had never been.

01:09:49.700 | I'd like look at the map and I'd see this green patch.

01:09:51.780 | I'm like, I don't know what's there.

01:09:53.220 | Like today we're going there.

01:09:55.060 | So we would go to that green patch,

01:09:57.700 | get out of the car and just hang out there for the day.

01:10:01.100 | And we would spend like two hours,

01:10:02.740 | six hours in this green patch I'd never been to.

01:10:06.100 | So I got to know the area really, really well by doing that.

01:10:10.820 | And now let's say like, if it's really bad weather,

01:10:14.020 | there's some days where I'd say like,

01:10:15.700 | all right, let's watch a movie.

01:10:18.060 | But instead of just picking the dumbest

01:10:21.340 | Hotel Transylvania 3 kind of entertainment,

01:10:25.060 | I do a little work to find some like

01:10:28.100 | beautiful award-winning animated movie from somewhere,

01:10:32.140 | ideally in another language or another culture

01:10:34.500 | that I would find really interesting.

01:10:35.540 | And I'd find this kind of like, I don't know,

01:10:37.300 | this German animated thing and subtitles.

01:10:40.940 | So my kid who doesn't read is just watching this in German,

01:10:43.540 | but I'm like, cool.

01:10:44.500 | The German language is getting into his ears

01:10:46.140 | a little bit today.

01:10:46.980 | And I'm watching an animated movie that I find interesting,

01:10:49.820 | not just like the lowest common denominator.

01:10:52.300 | So I would make choices like that to enrich his experience

01:10:56.260 | by often going somewhere new, watching something new.

01:10:59.260 | Sometimes we just listen to music.

01:11:00.620 | We'd kind of like cuddle and listen to say like

01:11:04.820 | Indian classical music while making Lego.

01:11:07.740 | Actually, that was a good way.

01:11:08.580 | He calls it Lego music.

01:11:09.820 | Indian classical music, he considers Lego music

01:11:12.460 | because I just thought like, all right,

01:11:13.580 | as long as we're just making Lego,

01:11:15.540 | let's open his ears a bit

01:11:16.700 | and put on a different kind of music.

01:11:18.460 | And it had like speakers in the living room

01:11:20.300 | so he could really kind of hear it,

01:11:22.620 | not just coming out of a tinny little one inch speaker.

01:11:25.300 | So yeah, choices like that, I just found to me made

01:11:29.540 | being a full-time dad, it made it a joy

01:11:32.180 | because I would keep choosing these decisions

01:11:34.380 | that were good for both of us.

01:11:35.580 | - And I think one of the big ones

01:11:36.980 | that you've read about is travel.

01:11:38.740 | And you wrote a post that says

01:11:40.540 | travels best with young children.

01:11:42.020 | And I was telling my wife about it.

01:11:43.220 | She's like, "How old are this guy's kids?"

01:11:45.620 | I don't think I said young.

01:11:46.540 | I said, "Oh, he wrote this great post

01:11:47.740 | "about travel with children."

01:11:48.580 | She's like, "Yeah, but are they 15?"

01:11:50.340 | So I think there's this idea

01:11:52.540 | of traveling with young children being horrible

01:11:54.780 | and it being the worst experience.

01:11:56.980 | And you write the exact opposite.

01:12:00.180 | And I've gotten so many emails from listeners saying,

01:12:02.580 | "Oh, can you talk more about travel with children

01:12:04.340 | "and how to make it enjoyable?"

01:12:05.660 | And as early as this morning,

01:12:07.820 | someone emailed me saying, "I'm going on this trip.

01:12:10.380 | "I can't remember where they're going."

01:12:11.380 | She's like, "I have a six-year-old and a one-year-old

01:12:12.980 | "and we're nervous.

01:12:13.820 | "How do you have a good trip traveling with children?"

01:12:16.020 | Very few people I know have a perspective

01:12:18.380 | of positive experience.

01:12:20.180 | So I'd love to wrap up a little bit and talk about that

01:12:23.420 | because we talk about travel a lot on this show

01:12:25.380 | and so many people are interested.

01:12:26.780 | How do you travel with your child

01:12:28.660 | and have a great experience when doing it?

01:12:31.580 | And what advice do you have for people

01:12:33.380 | about to go on a trip with their children?

01:12:34.780 | - I love this subject.

01:12:35.660 | I wrote that post because I got so frustrated

01:12:38.100 | at people acting like it was just a truism,

01:12:40.500 | like traveling with kids is hard

01:12:42.380 | or once you have kids, you can't travel anymore.

01:12:45.580 | I was like, "Damn."

01:12:46.700 | Like the difference between in theory and in practice,

01:12:50.380 | some people just decide in advance in theory,

01:12:52.700 | "Well, can't travel anymore.

01:12:54.340 | "Got kids now.

01:12:55.820 | "Just gonna have to stay put.

01:12:57.980 | "No more dreaming for me."

01:12:59.620 | But in practice, it's wonderful.

01:13:03.020 | Maybe you need to just change your mindset

01:13:04.900 | about it in advance,

01:13:05.860 | but I just find that for one,

01:13:07.980 | you don't need to pack hardly anything

01:13:11.140 | because anywhere you go has stuff for kids.

01:13:14.940 | I started traveling with our kid

01:13:17.500 | when he was three months old and in diapers.

01:13:21.220 | And you realize you don't need to pack 50 diapers.

01:13:23.060 | You need to pack like six diapers,

01:13:25.060 | maybe to get you through the first day

01:13:26.820 | 'cause anywhere you're gonna go has diapers.

01:13:28.900 | You don't need to pack toys

01:13:30.660 | because anywhere you go is gonna have toys.

01:13:34.340 | And if he's really stuck for entertainment

01:13:37.340 | and really needs a physical thing

01:13:39.260 | beyond just the one or two things that you bring with,

01:13:42.140 | then there are new physical things wherever you go.

01:13:45.740 | And I don't mean like things to buy.

01:13:48.420 | It may just be like random items found in the grass

01:13:53.420 | or on the street corner can be fascinating.

01:13:57.300 | God, he got so much joy out of this like rusty spring

01:14:00.420 | he found once in the gutter.

01:14:02.060 | We went to Wales and he found this rusty spring

01:14:05.060 | in the gutter that he just held onto for a week

01:14:07.300 | and just loved this spring.

01:14:09.020 | And it was like his favorite toy for the whole week

01:14:10.820 | while we were traveling in England

01:14:12.260 | that he found in literally in the gutter in Wales.

01:14:14.500 | So you don't need to pack much.

01:14:17.540 | That's a big one.

01:14:18.380 | As long as you leave early,

01:14:20.660 | like don't forget that the airport itself

01:14:24.340 | is a fascinating destination for kids.

01:14:27.380 | Like, oh my God, it might as well practically be Disneyland.

01:14:30.780 | There is so much there.

01:14:32.580 | So you get to the airport way early, like four hours early.

01:14:36.700 | There's no rush, there's no stress

01:14:39.700 | because your kids love to explore the airport.

01:14:42.460 | Even when he's just a little choo-choo crawling baby,

01:14:46.260 | he loved the attention from so many strangers.

01:14:48.380 | Like suddenly there's like hundreds of faces looking at him

01:14:51.020 | and he'd be like, ah, you know,

01:14:53.220 | like so many strangers wanna play with him.

01:14:55.340 | He loved hanging out at the airport.

01:14:57.260 | So then the flight itself, my number one advice

01:15:00.660 | for kids under the age of two or three is,

01:15:04.660 | I know this is gonna sound radical,

01:15:06.460 | but I actually got this from a great book

01:15:07.820 | called "Brain Rules for Baby" by John Medina.

01:15:10.140 | University of Washington, a neuroscientist

01:15:12.140 | has been studying brain development in babies for years.

01:15:16.340 | And his number one bit of advice,

01:15:18.740 | oh, sorry, number two bit of advice.

01:15:19.980 | Number one bit of advice was help your kids feel safe.

01:15:22.740 | Like number one, kids need to feel safe so they can flourish.

01:15:25.460 | But number two was, he said, no screens before the age of two.

01:15:29.860 | And in fact, the longer they can go without screens

01:15:33.460 | in front of them, the better.

01:15:34.580 | But he said like, absolutely do not let your kid

01:15:37.940 | stare at a screen before the age of two.

01:15:41.140 | So I heeded his advice and we had no screens in the house,

01:15:44.860 | no iPads, no movies, whatever, before the age of two.

01:15:48.700 | But the one exception is when we would get on a flight.

01:15:52.540 | And because he'd had no screens at all in his life,

01:15:57.460 | you wonder how to keep a kid still in a seat,

01:16:00.220 | like let them watch the screen.

01:16:01.620 | Suddenly he was just hypnotized and he would be absolutely still

01:16:06.220 | on a flight to the point where many different times when

01:16:10.500 | the flight was done, we'd be getting up, exiting the plane,

01:16:13.380 | and somebody in front of us or behind us

01:16:15.620 | would go, whoa, there was a kid here that whole time.

01:16:18.620 | And they didn't even know because their kid

01:16:20.340 | was so hypnotized by the screen.

01:16:22.220 | So I don't know, that was a good hack.

01:16:24.420 | And hey, that's why we're here, right?

01:16:26.020 | All the hacks.

01:16:26.700 | So that was a good hack.

01:16:27.700 | And then when you get to a place,

01:16:29.700 | you don't try to force your kid into your adult schedule.

01:16:35.060 | You don't say, all right, we're going to Paris,

01:16:37.300 | we're going to see the Louvre, we're

01:16:38.140 | going to see the Eiffel Tower, we're

01:16:39.220 | going to look at the Arc de Triomphe at 1 o'clock,

01:16:40.940 | and we're going to get it.

01:16:42.020 | You just let go of all that.

01:16:43.540 | Traveling with kids is so nice to just get to a destination

01:16:49.060 | and let go of your expectations to basically let

01:16:51.580 | your kid and circumstance lead the way.

01:16:55.460 | You're just going to get there, and then you just

01:16:57.940 | go out into the world with your kid and let them explore

01:17:00.780 | and let them lead the way.

01:17:02.140 | Isn't that a Whitney Houston song?

01:17:03.620 | You just let them lead and be on their schedule.

01:17:06.500 | What I love about that is then you

01:17:07.860 | get to experience this place through your kid's eyes.

01:17:12.380 | So I remember taking my kid to Thailand

01:17:14.700 | when he was like six months old.

01:17:16.980 | He was a crawling baby.

01:17:18.820 | He wasn't even walking.

01:17:19.780 | He was just crawling.

01:17:21.580 | And we would just go someplace like a temple that

01:17:24.300 | was gorgeous with the big golden stupas

01:17:27.380 | and just let him crawl around.

01:17:28.860 | And he would just be crawling around the temple,

01:17:30.820 | and everybody's giving him attention.

01:17:32.100 | He'd play with strangers.

01:17:33.620 | A Buddhist monk picks him up and holds him,

01:17:35.540 | and he's loving this attention.

01:17:36.780 | And people take his picture, and he

01:17:37.940 | crawls around the whole time.

01:17:39.140 | We're just laid back, kind of like enjoying the temple

01:17:41.420 | and our baby crawling around.

01:17:43.780 | And same thing with just going out to a park,

01:17:46.340 | and he's seeing different things.

01:17:47.700 | He sees monkeys.

01:17:48.780 | Oh my god.

01:17:51.260 | It's all so easy when you let your kid lead the way.

01:17:56.820 | Locals connect with you more.

01:17:58.300 | Everybody wants to come up and interact with the baby.

01:18:01.220 | So all these locals that don't speak English,

01:18:03.260 | and we can't communicate through language,

01:18:05.500 | but sweet old ladies come up, and they

01:18:07.900 | want to play with your baby.

01:18:09.500 | I absolutely love it.

01:18:10.380 | I kind of don't want to travel without my kid,

01:18:12.300 | I think, traveling with my kid at any age.

01:18:14.460 | And even now, he just turned 11.

01:18:17.180 | I just took him to Japan for two weeks.

01:18:19.100 | His mom had to work, so it was just me and him.

01:18:21.340 | And it was amazing to go see Japan through his eyes.

01:18:24.580 | I've been to Japan a few times.

01:18:26.540 | In my life, but I kept myself out of it.

01:18:28.780 | I just took us to Kanazawa on the West Coast,

01:18:31.620 | and we just stayed there for four days,

01:18:33.180 | and down to Kyoto for four days, then up to Tokyo for four days.

01:18:37.260 | Stopped at one hot springs resort town on the way

01:18:39.860 | so I could experience a real hot springs resort.

01:18:43.340 | And other than that, just day to day, we'd wake up,

01:18:45.900 | and I'd say, all right, dude, what do you want to do?

01:18:49.060 | You lead.

01:18:50.100 | I'll follow you.

01:18:50.900 | And it was so unexpected.

01:18:52.940 | I thought he'd be overwhelmed by Tokyo,

01:18:55.860 | but he loved it.

01:18:56.740 | In fact, sometimes when I was kind of tired,

01:18:58.660 | he's like, let's go out again.

01:19:00.260 | He said, let's go down this alley.

01:19:01.740 | And I just let him lead the way.

01:19:03.060 | He's like, let's go see what's upstairs.

01:19:04.980 | All right, sure.

01:19:06.180 | And it was great.

01:19:07.100 | It introduced so much randomness.

01:19:08.620 | He chose things I wouldn't have chosen.

01:19:10.580 | He's like my favorite travel partner

01:19:13.260 | and has been since he was born.

01:19:15.140 | So I think travel with kids is easy and wonderful.

01:19:20.340 | We went to London and Paris in December with two kids,

01:19:23.940 | six months and 2 and 1/2.

01:19:25.700 | We didn't try to cram in the Louvre.

01:19:27.420 | We picked places that, at least in Paris's case,

01:19:29.620 | we'd both been to before.

01:19:31.020 | One of the challenges that I'm curious to hear

01:19:33.980 | your perspective on, maybe this gets better

01:19:36.100 | after multiple times.

01:19:37.100 | This is our first kind of trip to a city with kids.

01:19:39.820 | A part of it was like, oh, we're so

01:19:41.260 | used to how much we try to accomplish on a trip.

01:19:44.220 | With children, you just have to cut your expectations way back.

01:19:47.820 | So I think if we wanted to have an enjoyable trip each day,

01:19:51.140 | the goal was, what's the one thing we're going to do today?

01:19:53.900 | Our list pre-kids was like, here's the eight things we'll do.

01:19:57.460 | Now it's one.

01:19:59.100 | And I wonder now if we went back--

01:20:01.060 | we weren't going in with eight.

01:20:02.380 | Maybe we had two and we realized one was more sustainable.

01:20:06.140 | But if you go all the way, halfway across the world,

01:20:09.020 | not everyone has months at a time.

01:20:10.980 | So let's say you're there for a week

01:20:12.820 | and you're only doing one thing a day.

01:20:14.620 | You might feel like you didn't get as much value out

01:20:17.820 | of the trip because you spent all this money to travel

01:20:20.340 | and stay and eat, but you didn't get to do that much.

01:20:24.380 | I have a feeling that you have a way

01:20:26.460 | to rephrase the perspective that will make anyone listening

01:20:31.180 | realize that they got just as much of a trip

01:20:33.820 | even though it was different.

01:20:35.440 | But I feel like the way you'll say it

01:20:37.020 | will give people that feeling far greater than the way

01:20:39.380 | I would.

01:20:39.900 | So I'm curious how you would kind of rebut the idea

01:20:43.260 | that if you're not doing a lot because you can't have

01:20:46.260 | as much on your agenda, you're not

01:20:48.420 | going to have the kind of trip that will make it worth it.

01:20:51.540 | I figure that if I've decided I want to go to Paris,

01:20:54.460 | and I've got that specific example too,

01:20:56.420 | I'm just choosing the where.

01:20:57.860 | I'm just saying, we're going to Paris.

01:21:01.260 | And I'll say, OK.

01:21:02.260 | So I took us to Paris.

01:21:04.060 | And once we got out of the train station at the Gare du Nord,

01:21:08.460 | is that it, the north one, I think, I just let him choose.

01:21:10.980 | I was like, well, we're in Paris now.

01:21:12.540 | Which way do you want to go?

01:21:13.900 | And he was like, go that way.

01:21:15.860 | I said, OK.

01:21:16.580 | And I just followed him.

01:21:18.180 | And I'm so glad I did.

01:21:20.340 | Because at every turn, he just decided where he wanted to go.

01:21:24.100 | He led the way.

01:21:25.220 | And at one point, he found this huge cardboard box

01:21:28.100 | that was as big as he is.

01:21:29.860 | And he's like, dad, check out this box.

01:21:33.620 | And he got inside this cardboard box.

01:21:35.500 | And for the next half an hour, he

01:21:37.380 | walked the streets of Paris inside a big cardboard box.

01:21:42.020 | And I got such joy out of that.

01:21:43.680 | I made a little phone movie of it,

01:21:46.260 | of the streets of Paris, in a busy center part of town,

01:21:50.980 | with him taking up the whole sidewalk,

01:21:52.980 | walking inside this big cardboard box.

01:21:54.900 | Everybody doing these double takes, like, what the hell?

01:21:57.220 | And me just cracking up at the juxtaposition of,

01:22:01.020 | not only is my kid taking up the sidewalk,

01:22:03.580 | walking in a huge cardboard box, but OMFG Paris.

01:22:06.220 | Like, to be doing this in Paris.

01:22:07.980 | And oh my god, there's the Eiffel Tower in the background,

01:22:11.020 | as my kid is walking in a cardboard box.

01:22:13.140 | And then at some point, he sees a huge staircase.

01:22:16.460 | It's starting to get dark.

01:22:17.700 | It's dusk.

01:22:19.180 | And he's like, whoa.

01:22:20.380 | He's like, look at all those stairs.

01:22:21.880 | He said, let's go this way.

01:22:22.580 | I said, all right.

01:22:23.700 | He's out of the box at this point.

01:22:25.820 | And we go up, and up, and up, and up, and up these steps.

01:22:30.420 | And we get to the top.

01:22:32.260 | And we take this turn.

01:22:33.740 | And it's like, oh, one of the most top five beautiful things

01:22:37.780 | I've ever seen in my life.

01:22:39.820 | He accidentally led us to Sacré-Cœur,

01:22:42.140 | the big, giant cathedral, which, just because it was dusk,

01:22:45.900 | was being lit up by floodlights.

01:22:47.740 | But the sky was dark blue.

01:22:49.660 | And it's at the top of the stairs, but you don't expect it.

01:22:52.160 | You turn up the stairs, and suddenly, it's

01:22:54.340 | just staring at you.

01:22:55.260 | And it's like, oh my god, it looks so surreal.

01:22:58.660 | And it was one of my favorite things on that whole trip,

01:23:01.860 | was us accidentally discovering Sacré-Cœur,

01:23:04.620 | which I'd only seen in postcards or photos at that point.

01:23:08.340 | I'd never seen it in person.

01:23:09.460 | And it was only because he led the way.

01:23:12.180 | That wasn't on my itinerary.

01:23:13.940 | And I wouldn't have put it on my itinerary.

01:23:16.140 | I didn't even really know what it was called.

01:23:18.500 | I had just seen pictures of it before.

01:23:20.100 | But yeah, letting your kids lead the way makes them happy.

01:23:25.060 | And it leads to so many wonderful random encounters.

01:23:28.540 | Yeah, I think it's just about reframing

01:23:31.860 | what makes a good trip, right?

01:23:34.220 | In an earlier life, a great trip to Paris

01:23:37.020 | might have involved ticking off a few restaurants

01:23:39.520 | your friends had recommended, seeing a few museums.

01:23:42.980 | As you were talking, what really clicked for me

01:23:46.260 | was I thought, OK, well, if we're not

01:23:47.940 | going to go do all those things, and we're just

01:23:49.900 | going to walk around, then we could just do that here.

01:23:53.500 | Why do we need to go all the way to Paris?

01:23:55.300 | But there's something about being in Paris,

01:23:58.460 | doing that, that makes the memories different.

01:24:01.080 | And the memories are why you're doing it in the first place.

01:24:03.580 | So I want to challenge myself on the next trip

01:24:06.100 | to just kind of let go, do whatever, see where it goes,

01:24:10.740 | and see if we have just a totally different type of memory

01:24:14.020 | that's equally or potentially even better than we used to.

01:24:17.500 | It's just uncomfortable, right?

01:24:18.860 | Because it's not a type of thing I'm familiar with,

01:24:21.300 | because that's not how we would travel pre-kid.

01:24:23.420 | So we found the travel logistics to not be as overwhelming

01:24:27.460 | as much as the trying to find the balance between--

01:24:30.800 | I don't know, my wife and I, when we're in new cities,

01:24:33.020 | we're like, let's go find a cool bar

01:24:35.460 | and have a good cocktail, or let's go eat

01:24:37.620 | whatever the local food is.

01:24:39.020 | And so it's like, OK, well, we got to get to this restaurant.

01:24:41.500 | But in London, nothing opens early enough

01:24:44.420 | to eat before kids' nap time.

01:24:45.820 | But if we reframed it and just said,

01:24:47.320 | we're not going to have the trip we wanted to have when

01:24:49.660 | we were 10 years younger.

01:24:50.780 | We're going to have a different style trip where our children

01:24:53.420 | experience things, and we get to watch that unfold,

01:24:56.740 | I think it would have been different.

01:24:58.300 | And I think we maybe had the wrong expectations.

01:25:00.200 | We still had a great trip, but I think

01:25:01.580 | we could have had a better trip.

01:25:02.920 | I find it really important--

01:25:06.280 | this is just my values.

01:25:07.400 | Nobody listening has to adopt my values.

01:25:10.120 | But a lot of the reason I was traveling

01:25:13.360 | was for him as much as me because I

01:25:15.200 | wanted him to know that Paris is a place that he's been

01:25:21.260 | and has a connection to.

01:25:23.960 | So the trip was--

01:25:26.320 | when you say like, why not just stay home?

01:25:28.280 | Yeah, the trip was for him as much as me to know--

01:25:30.680 | he can identify so many countries on a map

01:25:33.400 | now at age 11.

01:25:35.480 | And he's got a little connection to so many of them,

01:25:38.000 | even some that he hasn't been to.

01:25:39.340 | But I want him to feel a connection to the world.

01:25:42.440 | So when somebody says France, he's like, oh, yeah,

01:25:44.840 | I've been there.

01:25:45.680 | And if somebody says Spain, he's like, oh, yeah, I've been there.

01:25:48.400 | I wanted that for his self-identity.

01:25:50.160 | I want him to feel that the world is his home,

01:25:53.000 | not just this one country where we're in right now,

01:25:56.000 | but all of it, like the more of it, the better.

01:25:58.720 | So I generally would take him on trips

01:26:01.040 | to places we've never been.

01:26:03.080 | Let him lead the way.

01:26:05.080 | He gets to feel the sense of autonomy.

01:26:07.760 | You never have to worry about him being happy.

01:26:09.680 | Because if your kid is leading the way--

01:26:11.520 | I wouldn't know how to do it with two kids.

01:26:12.720 | I don't know.

01:26:13.260 | But if your kid's leading the way, then he's happy.

01:26:15.560 | And you get the randomness.

01:26:16.640 | But it's more about just your kid feeling a connection

01:26:19.880 | to this place on Earth.

01:26:20.920 | That was most important to me.

01:26:22.200 | I didn't really care what we did in the place.

01:26:25.080 | But the reason I gasped while you were saying that is--

01:26:29.400 | Chris, satisficing and maximizing,

01:26:33.400 | it comes back full circle to earlier in the conversation

01:26:36.680 | of you just described a way of travel

01:26:38.720 | that was trying to maximize.

01:26:40.120 | You're like, all right, we've got 72 hours in Paris.

01:26:43.560 | We are going to go to the best restaurants, the best

01:26:45.680 | sites, the best museum.

01:26:47.240 | That's maximizing.

01:26:49.800 | And I think that's the wrong strategy.

01:26:52.080 | I think satisficing is the correct strategy

01:26:55.160 | for travel with kids.

01:26:56.120 | You're just like, all right, I'm just

01:26:57.660 | going to book us a trip to Paris.

01:26:59.760 | And we're going to get off.

01:27:01.200 | And we're going to spend a few days in Paris.

01:27:02.480 | I don't know what's going to happen while we're there.

01:27:04.780 | We'll see what happens.

01:27:06.000 | But we're going to spend three days in Paris

01:27:07.160 | with no expectations.

01:27:08.400 | That's probably a better recipe for happiness.

01:27:12.200 | It's my eternal struggle, is to satisfice.

01:27:14.880 | But I will continue to try to make gains

01:27:17.280 | towards more satisficing.

01:27:18.960 | You should read that book.

01:27:20.520 | You should read "Hyperoxygen."

01:27:21.800 | It's going to stack up a bunch of reasons why you should.

01:27:23.840 | I already have it written down.

01:27:25.560 | I try not to be distracted and write things down.

01:27:27.640 | But every now and then in a conversation,

01:27:29.320 | I'm like, well, that deserves to be written down.

01:27:31.120 | OK, so there's two final things.

01:27:32.860 | One is around satisficing.

01:27:36.160 | There is a story I've somehow managed to hear you tell twice.

01:27:39.960 | I've picked random things.

01:27:41.000 | And sometimes I read it.

01:27:41.920 | And sometimes I'm like, oh, let's just play.

01:27:43.760 | And on your site, you read some of your posts.

01:27:46.240 | And it's a perspective that sometimes

01:27:50.760 | taking a different path, taking the not perfect optimal

01:27:54.320 | maximizing path might actually not result in as worse

01:27:58.800 | of an outcome as you seem.

01:28:00.120 | So one of the reasons I think a lot of us maximize

01:28:01.960 | is that we're like, we want the best.

01:28:03.080 | We want the optimal outcome.

01:28:04.360 | And if you don't get it, in our minds,

01:28:06.160 | it feels like you'll be spending so much more money.

01:28:08.280 | But it might actually only be $10.

01:28:09.880 | Could you talk about this bike ride

01:28:12.160 | where you stop to slow down?

01:28:13.760 | Because I think it's a good way to wrap up the conversation.

01:28:18.400 | Because sometimes just taking a different path,

01:28:21.600 | it doesn't actually mean that you're

01:28:23.640 | getting a much worse outcome in terms of, in your case,

01:28:26.520 | how long it took.

01:28:28.240 | Right.

01:28:28.800 | OK, so first the story.

01:28:31.160 | And then how it ties back into what we've been talking about.

01:28:34.600 | OK.

01:28:35.080 | Because the story is about what happened.

01:28:36.520 | And then how it ties back in is about

01:28:38.360 | the psychological experience in your mind,

01:28:42.580 | not just the physical experience.

01:28:44.000 | OK, so the story of what actually happened

01:28:45.760 | is when I was living in Santa Monica, California

01:28:48.240 | on the beach, there is a bike path

01:28:50.160 | that goes through the sand there.

01:28:52.560 | And I think it's 15 miles or something like that.

01:28:55.220 | And for exercise, almost every day,

01:28:58.400 | I would at some point stop what I was doing.

01:29:00.200 | And I'd get on my bike.

01:29:01.680 | And I would do that bike path as fast as I could,

01:29:06.280 | really head down and kind of pushing as hard as I could

01:29:10.240 | to do this in the name of exercise.

01:29:12.400 | I'm going to do this track.

01:29:14.360 | And I would do the 15 miles back and forth.

01:29:16.640 | I don't remember if it was exactly 15 miles.

01:29:18.520 | But I do remember that after the first or second time,

01:29:22.760 | the time it would take me was almost always exactly 43

01:29:26.120 | minutes.

01:29:27.160 | If it was a really windy day, maybe a little more,

01:29:29.880 | but almost never less than 43 minutes.

01:29:32.160 | So 43 minutes every time.

01:29:34.280 | But after doing this for a few months,

01:29:36.320 | I realized I was getting less motivated to do it.

01:29:38.800 | It's like, it's not so much fun, this kind of--

01:29:43.060 | I always get really red-faced.

01:29:44.360 | It would take me like an hour to cool down afterwards.

01:29:46.600 | I have to take a cold shower.

01:29:47.880 | And even then, I would continue sweating

01:29:49.920 | even after a cold shower.

01:29:51.200 | So one day, I was just like, I just need to chill.

01:29:54.480 | I'm just going to relax and do the same ride,

01:29:59.400 | but at half my normal pace.

01:30:02.000 | So I get on my bike.

01:30:02.920 | And I'm just like, ah, da-da-da-da-da.

01:30:05.920 | Just going like a granny, sitting more upright,

01:30:10.320 | looking around.

01:30:11.200 | And I was just on my same path.

01:30:13.080 | And there were dolphins jumping in the ocean that day.

01:30:15.440 | I was like, oh, wow, dolphins.

01:30:17.440 | That's so badass.

01:30:18.320 | I grew up in Chicago.

01:30:19.640 | I'm looking at dolphins.

01:30:21.040 | And yes, in the Marina Del Rey, I went to--

01:30:23.960 | under Marina Del Rey, there were a whole bunch of pelicans

01:30:26.600 | that were perching on the breakwater thing.

01:30:30.000 | And at one point, when I rode my bike near them,

01:30:32.160 | the pelicans all went, pfft, pfft, pfft, pfft.

01:30:34.040 | I was like, whoa, pelicans.

01:30:36.160 | And then like, ah, one of them shit in my mouth.

01:30:39.640 | It was like the taste of digested oyster.

01:30:42.720 | The shells were like, pfft, pfft, pfft, pfft.

01:30:44.960 | So that was a really unique experience.

01:30:47.560 | So then I get back to my starting point,

01:30:49.680 | where I would always time myself.

01:30:51.680 | And I looked at my watch.

01:30:54.040 | And it had been 45 minutes.

01:30:56.720 | I was like, wait a minute.

01:30:57.880 | No way.

01:30:59.240 | Like, I'm usually doing it in 43 minutes.

01:31:01.840 | I thought it would be like an hour and a half.

01:31:03.880 | I felt like I was going half speed.

01:31:06.680 | But I guess just because of the strength of my legs or whatever,

01:31:09.640 | I was going about the same pace, even though it

01:31:13.680 | felt like half the effort.

01:31:15.800 | So that just blew my mind.

01:31:17.720 | And yeah, I double checked.

01:31:18.880 | Yeah, 45 minutes.

01:31:19.760 | Oh, my god.

01:31:21.120 | So that became a metaphor for how you can just relax and put

01:31:26.600 | in so much less effort and get almost the same result,

01:31:31.280 | objectively.

01:31:32.760 | But psychologically, you feel so much better about it.

01:31:38.320 | So yeah, full circle to what we're talking about,

01:31:42.280 | whether it's travel or decision making.

01:31:46.520 | To me, the psychological experience

01:31:49.600 | matters more than anything.

01:31:52.640 | So yes, I could force my kid to go to the eight things

01:31:58.000 | I want to see in Paris and force him to sit next to me

01:32:00.920 | at a fancy restaurant that he doesn't like.

01:32:03.280 | Because damn it, it says that this

01:32:04.880 | has the best creme brulee in Paris.

01:32:08.240 | And I could make him do this.

01:32:10.360 | And objectively, I could say that

01:32:12.560 | might cram in more experiences and technically

01:32:16.000 | make a better holiday.

01:32:17.160 | But guess what?

01:32:18.240 | The psychological experience of it

01:32:20.200 | would be worse than if I just book the flight, get there,

01:32:25.160 | and just let my kid lead the way.

01:32:27.240 | I might see less stuff, but the psychological experience of it

01:32:31.280 | will be better.

01:32:32.040 | I definitely value and prioritize

01:32:34.720 | the psychological, the inner experience of something.

01:32:37.600 | To me, you kind of satisfies the bike ride,

01:32:39.880 | which is you didn't try to get the ultimate maximum output

01:32:43.280 | from riding it.

01:32:44.080 | And in return, you actually got the maximum output.

01:32:46.520 | You did.

01:32:47.040 | You actually were able to get 99% of the output

01:32:51.040 | in terms of physical output.

01:32:52.640 | But then you also got to enjoy the bike ride and all that.

01:32:55.320 | And to the Paris example, the funniest part

01:32:57.080 | is to the average untrained American palate,

01:32:59.560 | I am fairly confident that the average creme brulee in Paris

01:33:03.200 | is going to be better than any creme brulee you've had.

01:33:05.920 | So does it need to be the best croissant or the best creme

01:33:09.800 | brulee?

01:33:10.600 | And I say this as someone who just recently searched for,

01:33:13.760 | oh, let's go to this bakery.

01:33:15.040 | They have the best this.

01:33:16.240 | We did have one terrible croissant in Paris.

01:33:18.840 | But for the most part, the random croissant at any bakery

01:33:22.080 | is so good that I would tell you,

01:33:25.080 | even though I find it hard to take my own advice,

01:33:28.080 | that don't track to the best one in the world.

01:33:31.160 | Just track to a good one.

01:33:32.880 | And enjoy that, and it will probably

01:33:35.440 | be a better experience than schlepping the whole family

01:33:39.400 | on the metro to go seven stops early in the morning

01:33:42.840 | so you don't have to wait too long of a line.

01:33:44.800 | And I say this as advice it's hard for me to take myself,

01:33:47.920 | but hopefully the pain I've endured to say it

01:33:50.880 | can save people some misery.

01:33:52.480 | I have internalized satisficing so much

01:33:56.520 | that when I go to a restaurant, and I don't even

01:33:59.680 | really care what restaurant I go to,

01:34:01.200 | I don't even maximize that.

01:34:03.360 | Whatever is nearby, it's fine.

01:34:04.680 | I'm sure it's fine, as long as it doesn't completely suck.

01:34:07.320 | If I see the one with the little flies

01:34:09.040 | and the broken fluorescent light, all right,

01:34:10.760 | maybe not that one.

01:34:11.880 | Maybe that one across the street instead.

01:34:13.720 | I can walk into almost any restaurant,

01:34:15.760 | and my friends tease me for this.

01:34:18.000 | Here's how I order.

01:34:19.240 | I flip open the menu, and basically the first thing I see

01:34:22.400 | in the first three seconds, I'm like, there.

01:34:23.840 | I just close the menu.

01:34:24.680 | I'm like, that's what I'm having.

01:34:25.640 | And they're just like, you didn't look at everything.

01:34:27.480 | I'm like, I don't need to look at everything.

01:34:29.760 | I'm just gonna eat something, and it's gonna be fine.

01:34:32.360 | Like, I don't even need to order the best thing on the menu.

01:34:34.680 | Just whatever.

01:34:36.160 | Or if I don't even feel like looking at the menu,

01:34:37.920 | and the waiter comes by early,

01:34:39.480 | I'll just say, what's your best thing?

01:34:41.560 | Or, what do you recommend?

01:34:42.400 | What's your most popular dish?

01:34:43.440 | And they'll say, oh, the, whatever, the chili.

01:34:46.240 | I'm like, yeah, give me that then.

01:34:48.040 | Like, I don't even look at the menu sometimes.

01:34:49.800 | I really, really deeply internalized the lessons

01:34:54.000 | from "The Paradox of Choice" book.

01:34:56.320 | - Well, I'm gonna recommend everyone check out

01:34:58.600 | both the writings you've had,

01:34:59.800 | the books you've written, and that book.

01:35:02.200 | The one thing, I haven't done this as frequently

01:35:04.080 | as I wanted to, but I ask people,

01:35:06.520 | because everyone here likes to travel,

01:35:08.200 | is there a place, and I'm hoping

01:35:10.040 | that you use somewhere in New Zealand,

01:35:11.400 | since I've been dying for an excuse to go,

01:35:13.520 | that you're familiar with enough,

01:35:15.240 | feel free to choose anywhere in the world,

01:35:16.760 | that if someone were heading there,

01:35:19.080 | you'd recommend a couple places that are your favorite

01:35:22.080 | anywhere in the world.

01:35:22.920 | - Let me start with a do not do in New Zealand.

01:35:25.960 | If you come to New Zealand,

01:35:27.760 | do not spend a single minute in any city.

01:35:31.120 | New Zealand is not Europe.

01:35:32.360 | In Europe, the cities contain the culture of the place.

01:35:37.080 | In New Zealand, the cities are just dumb, generic cities.

01:35:40.000 | There is nothing special about any city in New Zealand.

01:35:42.480 | Everything that's wonderful about New Zealand

01:35:44.160 | is contained in the rural nature countryside,

01:35:47.800 | or in the cute, small, little towns.

01:35:50.040 | So what you must do when you come to New Zealand

01:35:53.080 | is just rent a car, whether you rent a car

01:35:56.560 | at the Auckland Airport and drive south,

01:35:58.840 | or connect to Christchurch and just rent a car

01:36:01.400 | at the Christchurch Airport and drive west.

01:36:03.440 | Just drive away from the city.

01:36:04.720 | Don't spend a single minute in any city in New Zealand.

01:36:08.160 | Okay, so that's number one.

01:36:09.960 | What to do, honestly, I'm just gonna leave this open.

01:36:13.040 | I think the best thing to do then is rent a car,

01:36:17.000 | install the booking.com app on your phone,

01:36:19.880 | because every single motel in New Zealand,

01:36:23.640 | and there are hundreds, maybe thousands

01:36:25.800 | of these cute little motels, they're all on this app,

01:36:29.120 | and it will show you your immediate availability.

01:36:31.000 | So you can just be impulsive.

01:36:33.540 | You don't even need to book everything in advance.

01:36:35.920 | You can just go on a drive and see what looks appealing

01:36:39.760 | and say like, what's that over there?

01:36:40.800 | Let's just go there.

01:36:42.400 | And then when it's getting late afternoon

01:36:43.960 | and you're feeling like it's time to pick

01:36:45.280 | where you're gonna stay, you just open the app with the GPS

01:36:47.880 | and it says like, okay, here's the six motels in your area

01:36:50.360 | that have availability, and you just pick one.

01:36:52.420 | And they're all good.

01:36:53.480 | My favorite road trips in New Zealand

01:36:55.520 | have been through this method with no plan.

01:36:57.880 | I just go to a certain direction

01:37:00.000 | and the whole country is so safe and the people are so nice

01:37:03.800 | and there are plenty of motels.

01:37:05.640 | And that's more than telling you one destination to go to.

01:37:09.900 | It's that.

01:37:10.740 | But lastly, if I had to pick just one,

01:37:12.240 | if you've got little kids, one hour north of Wellington,

01:37:17.380 | there is a very special place called Stag Lands.

01:37:22.320 | S-T-A-G, L-A-N-D-S.

01:37:24.760 | It is an open like petting zoo kind of thing.

01:37:28.520 | The animals are not in cages, they're just roaming around.

01:37:31.840 | And all of the animals will eat out of your hand

01:37:34.600 | and you can just go up to whether it's like deer

01:37:37.560 | or birds or peacocks, geese, little pigs.

01:37:42.160 | Yeah, everything will eat out of your hand

01:37:43.640 | and you just like pet them

01:37:44.480 | and you're just surrounded in this wonderful like valley

01:37:47.540 | full of animals.

01:37:49.020 | And especially if you get to go on a weekday,

01:37:50.580 | you'll be one of the only people there.

01:37:51.940 | It's just, it's a really, really, really special place.

01:37:54.420 | So there's my secret hidden recommendation.

01:37:57.960 | But actually, you know what?

01:37:58.800 | Anybody, if you're coming to New Zealand, email me

01:38:00.780 | and I'll give you more examples.

01:38:02.140 | Go to my website, you click contact

01:38:04.180 | and there's my email address.

01:38:05.460 | I really enjoy my open inbox.

01:38:07.860 | The reason I do interviews like this

01:38:09.340 | is because of the people I meet,

01:38:10.940 | the people who listen to these things.

01:38:12.700 | And come on, if you've heard my voice for an hour and a half,

01:38:15.520 | then send me an email, say hello, introduce yourself.

01:38:18.760 | And if you're coming to New Zealand,

01:38:20.040 | definitely let me know and I'll give you more detailed tips.

01:38:23.560 | 'Cause I've been here for 10 years now

01:38:25.240 | and I know most of the secret places.

01:38:29.000 | - It's on our list.

01:38:29.920 | We have kids.

01:38:30.760 | Stag lands will be on the list as well.

01:38:33.160 | This has been so much fun.

01:38:34.360 | I'm sure we could go longer,

01:38:35.460 | but I would love to wrap up and just say,

01:38:37.640 | is there any final place you'd like people to check out

01:38:40.520 | or anywhere you'd like to send them

01:38:42.400 | before we go?

01:38:43.860 | - I really like hearing from strangers.

01:38:46.380 | I really enjoy it when people introduce themselves.

01:38:48.700 | It's like a deepest sense of joy to me

01:38:50.920 | to know people from around the world.

01:38:53.100 | So yeah, any fans of Chris's all the hacks,

01:38:56.260 | go send me an email, go to my website, sive.rs.

01:39:00.460 | And you don't even have to ask me a question,

01:39:02.460 | just introduce yourself and say hi.

01:39:04.620 | - That's awesome.

01:39:05.460 | Well, I know you enjoy email and you respond

01:39:07.260 | because that's how this all started.

01:39:09.100 | So I'm so glad we got to do it.

01:39:10.860 | Thank you so much for being here.

01:39:12.640 | - Thanks Chris.

01:39:13.480 | - I really hope you enjoyed this episode.

01:39:17.140 | Thank you so much for listening.

01:39:18.900 | If you haven't already left a rating

01:39:20.400 | and a review for the show in Apple podcasts or Spotify,

01:39:23.820 | I would really appreciate it.

01:39:25.540 | And if you have any feedback on the show,

01:39:26.980 | questions for me, or just want to say hi,

01:39:29.340 | I'm Chris@allthehacks.com or @hutchins on Twitter.

01:39:33.620 | That's it for this week.

01:39:34.700 | I'll see you next week.

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