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00:01:34.640 | Hello, and welcome to another episode of All The Hacks, a show about upgrading

00:01:44.480 | your life, money, and travel all while spending less and saving more.

00:01:48.240 | I'm Chris Hutchins, and I'm excited to have you on my journey to find All The

00:01:52.000 | Hacks.

00:01:52.440 | Today's conversation is one I am certain you'll remember because it is all about

00:01:57.080 | memory.

00:01:58.040 | I'm joined by Johannes Malow, who stumbled on memory sports in 2003 after

00:02:03.160 | watching a TV talent show and has since been crowned world memory champion

00:02:07.160 | twice, most recently in 2018, and has won the German memory championship four

00:02:12.360 | times.

00:02:13.000 | He's competed all over the world for the past 18 years and is currently ranked

00:02:17.520 | number nine in the world by the International Association of Memory.

00:02:21.320 | Some of his personal records include memorizing a random list of 1014

00:02:26.360 | numbers in 15 minutes and memorizing the order of a randomly shuffled deck of

00:02:30.760 | cards in under 25 seconds.

00:02:32.880 | In our conversation, we'll hear about the mental and physical struggles

00:02:37.040 | Johannes had to overcome to be a world champion.

00:02:40.000 | We'll learn about the techniques he uses to memorize things most of us assume are

00:02:43.960 | impossible, and we'll discuss how we can use these techniques for things in our

00:02:47.880 | personal and professional life.

00:02:49.280 | I am so excited for this episode, so let's jump in.

00:02:55.520 | Johannes, thank you so much for being here.

00:02:57.600 | Chris, thank you very much for having me.

00:02:59.880 | And yeah, looking forward to that today and for your questions.

00:03:03.800 | Yeah.

00:03:04.760 | So, you know, I mentioned a couple of the records you hold, but I don't think

00:03:09.840 | most people know what a world memory championship even is.

00:03:13.320 | So I thought it might be good to start.

00:03:15.760 | What is it?

00:03:16.680 | What happens at these events and what kinds of things have you accomplished

00:03:20.280 | to be crowned the champion?

00:03:22.880 | Yeah, so in general, a world championship is a three days event

00:03:28.480 | happening somewhere in the world.

00:03:30.040 | And usually it's like a big exam.

00:03:33.480 | So a huge exam.

00:03:34.720 | Hundreds of people sitting down at their desk and they will be given a sheet of

00:03:40.280 | paper with, for example, numbers or names or words, and then they have a specific

00:03:45.680 | amount of time to memorize these lists.

00:03:47.480 | So for example, there's one discipline out of 10, which you mentioned is, for

00:03:52.200 | example, 15 minute numbers.

00:03:53.840 | So you have a sheet of paper with digits on it and you have 15 minutes to memorize

00:03:59.000 | as many as you can, and then they collect these sheets of paper and then you get a

00:04:04.400 | recall sheet and you have to write them down.

00:04:06.360 | So, and that is just one discipline out of 10 for the world championship.

00:04:10.400 | And it's spread out over three days.

00:04:12.000 | For example, one discipline is one hour numbers.

00:04:15.040 | So you have to memorize for one hour, as many digits as you can, or one hour cards.

00:04:19.520 | So you have to memorize playing cards, as many as you can within one hour.

00:04:23.280 | And that is really exhausting.

00:04:25.120 | So it's unbelievable exhausting actually.

00:04:28.160 | So that's actually what a world memory championship works like 10 disciplines,

00:04:32.600 | names, cards, numbers, and so on.

00:04:34.160 | And in the end, overall, you get points for each discipline and the overall

00:04:40.400 | champion is the one with the most points over all the disciplines.

00:04:43.920 | And that I became twice in 2018 and 2012, having the most points out of these 10

00:04:49.680 | disciplines in the world championship.

00:04:52.160 | Is there one discipline that's kind of known within all of the competitors that

00:04:57.360 | is the hardest one that, you know, whoever can win this one is likely to be the

00:05:01.440 | champion?

00:05:01.960 | Actually, I think the last one, this is called speed cards.

00:05:06.000 | This is the most exciting stuff.

00:05:07.960 | And it's, you have an actual deck of cards, 52 playing cards, and it is

00:05:13.280 | shuffled, and then you have to memorize it as fast as you can in the correct

00:05:18.200 | order, all the cards, the 52 cards.

00:05:20.440 | And then when you're done, you put it away and you get a second deck of cards,

00:05:26.440 | which is in the correct order of the cards.

00:05:28.520 | And then you have to put this ordered deck of cards into the order of the

00:05:34.240 | shuffled deck of cards, which you just memorized.

00:05:36.720 | And the crucial thing here is that this is the last discipline.

00:05:40.880 | And if you make one mistake, like just swap two cards, for example, then you

00:05:45.640 | just get zero points for that deck.

00:05:47.280 | And that's the toughest thing because you can't really make a mistake.

00:05:52.000 | Otherwise you just get zero points instead of 800 and then you lose the

00:05:56.920 | championship.

00:05:57.440 | And so the pressure is on.

00:05:59.160 | You need to do that right now.

00:06:00.520 | And everyone is watching.

00:06:02.760 | And yeah, you have to memorize a deck of cards, maybe in 30 seconds, 25, 20

00:06:07.720 | seconds, this is what we're up to today in the World of Memory competitions, 20

00:06:12.720 | seconds.

00:06:13.160 | The world record is actually 12.76 seconds for memorizing a deck of cards

00:06:17.880 | with 52 playing cards.

00:06:19.040 | I have so many questions about how you do it, how you feel, but when you're in

00:06:23.560 | that final moment of competing in the last discipline, are there things you do

00:06:27.360 | to prepare yourself?

00:06:28.320 | Yes.

00:06:29.640 | I try to relax.

00:06:32.240 | Easier said than done.

00:06:33.600 | But actually I try to imagine myself being at home again, being at my desk at

00:06:39.640 | home in a training situation.

00:06:41.240 | So I close my eyes.

00:06:43.920 | I imagine myself being at home at my training desk and just hearing the sound

00:06:50.000 | what I hear, usually in my home, feeling the desk and so on.

00:06:53.640 | So like bringing me back in this relaxing situation and that calms me down and my

00:07:00.040 | heart rate drops and I become more relaxed.

00:07:03.800 | So it's like a small meditation, you might call it like that.

00:07:07.960 | And this works pretty well for me.

00:07:10.680 | Breathe slowly in, slowly out, just for a minute and then I am ready to go.

00:07:16.600 | Yeah.

00:07:17.720 | Wow.

00:07:18.160 | So if anyone listening wants to see some of these competitions, there's lots of

00:07:21.920 | videos online and I highly recommend looking it up.

00:07:24.400 | It's really kind of exciting to watch someone memorize this deck of cards so

00:07:28.200 | quickly.

00:07:29.280 | Is this something you always knew you would do or how did you get into this, I

00:07:33.200 | guess, career of memory sports?

00:07:35.200 | And my mother would say I was always into memorizing because I always beat my

00:07:40.000 | parents in memory playing cards when I was a child.

00:07:43.400 | But of course, every child is beating their parents in playing memory.

00:07:47.480 | So I wasn't into that in any way before I finished school.

00:07:52.200 | And when I was when I turned 22 and went to my studies, then I just came across

00:07:59.320 | this memory sports.

00:08:00.680 | Like you told before, I saw this talent show on the TV and someone memorized the

00:08:06.040 | deck of cards and the list of words.

00:08:08.560 | And I was like, OK, if she can do it, I can do it, too.

00:08:11.760 | And then I went to the Internet, did some research.

00:08:14.240 | So I started in my early 20s with that and then I somehow got addicted to doing

00:08:20.680 | that again and again and again because I saw myself climbing up the ladder of

00:08:25.600 | rankings. And that was really motivating for me.

00:08:28.880 | So at first it was just a competition thing.

00:08:31.320 | And then later I started doing also memory for my studies.

00:08:36.600 | And then at another point, I started training kids in how to learn better for

00:08:42.280 | school, but also doing just memory competitions.

00:08:44.640 | So, yeah, it's it's all like right now since 18 years I'm doing that.

00:08:50.880 | Wow. And I know you mentioned on your website, the physical issues you faced

00:08:56.440 | played a big role in kind of pushing you to do this.

00:09:00.000 | Could you talk a little bit about that journey?

00:09:01.600 | Sure. Sure.

00:09:02.840 | Little is not easy to take just a little about it because it's a longer story.

00:09:07.120 | But I'm facing a physical muscle disease.

00:09:10.560 | That means that my muscles are going down.

00:09:14.600 | And this disease is called FSHD and it's also very well known in the US.

00:09:21.440 | There's a big organization about it.

00:09:23.120 | So I was facing that when I turned 14 already.

00:09:27.080 | And then it started with my legs.

00:09:30.280 | So my left leg becomes thinner and thinner and the muscles decrease there.

00:09:35.960 | And I was falling down to the floor and I couldn't go and play table tennis

00:09:41.880 | anymore. I was quite OK.

00:09:43.760 | Good table tennis player.

00:09:45.160 | And I couldn't do that anymore.

00:09:46.960 | So it was a slight start.

00:09:48.880 | And then I went to the hospital and they tried to find out what is it about.

00:09:53.080 | And then they found, OK, this is a genetic disease which affects my muscles and

00:09:58.480 | they will go down over time.

00:10:00.480 | But they couldn't say how long it will take to maybe do I have to use a

00:10:05.000 | wheelchair or not and so on.

00:10:06.520 | And then I just tried to forget about that because you are 15, 16.

00:10:10.440 | You try to, I don't know, you try to go to a party or get a girlfriend or

00:10:15.080 | whatever. And I just didn't want to be too much involved into that.

00:10:21.320 | So I didn't do anything about it at this point because I couldn't do anything.

00:10:25.280 | And then when I turned 20, 21, 22, it was the time that I had a hard time

00:10:31.800 | walking and it becomes more difficult.

00:10:33.720 | And in my 20s, I was very depressed about that because it was like aging

00:10:38.600 | early. It really felt like I was already 70 years old or 80 years old and

00:10:44.040 | everything goes down with my body.

00:10:45.680 | And I felt bad about it.

00:10:47.640 | I was depressed.

00:10:48.560 | My self-confidence goes down.

00:10:50.640 | But then there was memory sports and memory sports was my door into another

00:10:56.600 | world because that gave me the opportunity to travel the world, to meet

00:11:01.680 | other people who are also interested in this memory stuff and most important, to

00:11:05.760 | compete against others because I was always very competitive.

00:11:09.560 | But with this muscle disease, you couldn't do any competitive sport anymore.

00:11:14.160 | But memory sports was possible.

00:11:16.160 | And then I thought, OK, I can try to be the German champion.

00:11:19.320 | And then I won that.

00:11:20.480 | And then I was like, OK, maybe I can be the world champion once.

00:11:24.520 | And I tried my best and finished second and finished second again in the world

00:11:29.160 | championship. And I was depressed about that.

00:11:31.560 | Actually, second in the world is quite good, but I was depressed anyway.

00:11:35.960 | And but because I was not accepting my disease at this point, then I went to a

00:11:42.160 | doctor, a psychologist, and she helped me a lot.

00:11:44.560 | And then at some point I had to say, OK, I have to use a wheelchair if I want to

00:11:49.760 | be a world champion.

00:11:50.680 | I have to travel there.

00:11:51.760 | And if I want to travel there, I cannot walk anymore.

00:11:54.280 | It's too tough.

00:11:55.080 | I fall down to this floor all the time.

00:11:57.480 | It's so dangerous.

00:11:58.840 | And then I have to decide, OK, I take a wheelchair now, go to the world

00:12:02.520 | championship and try to win it.

00:12:04.040 | And actually, that was one of the most important steps back then to just accept

00:12:10.320 | it, use a wheelchair.

00:12:11.480 | And now the wheelchair means freedom for me.

00:12:13.800 | And that moment, becoming the world champion in 2012, was the best moment in

00:12:18.240 | my life, I would say, because I went through so much trouble, 10 years of

00:12:23.200 | depression and being down and fighting this disease and fighting myself and

00:12:29.200 | trying to be the best in the world and failing.

00:12:31.520 | And then sitting there in the last discipline, speed karts, sitting there

00:12:36.640 | and saying, OK, now you have to memorize a stack in about 40 seconds.

00:12:40.120 | That's enough this time.

00:12:41.640 | Just do it.

00:12:43.040 | And I failed the first attempt.

00:12:45.080 | And then I had one attempt left.

00:12:46.840 | You have two attempts.

00:12:47.640 | And I was like, OK, now everything counts.

00:12:50.920 | Now it's this moment.

00:12:52.040 | Everything comes together here.

00:12:53.360 | And then I did it somehow.

00:12:54.920 | I was shaking, but I did it.

00:12:56.680 | And then I was a world champion.

00:12:58.160 | And that was really like, yeah, it was a huge emotional moment for me.

00:13:04.120 | Thank you for kind of opening up and sharing things that people don't often

00:13:08.440 | talk about.

00:13:09.040 | Are there things that if you look back, you think steps along the way that helped

00:13:13.160 | you push through the really hard parts of that journey?

00:13:16.240 | Yeah, when I think back, it's obviously that friends, good friends are very

00:13:21.320 | important. So because if you can rely on even if it's just one person you can

00:13:27.560 | rely on and you can talk to, that's very, very important in these situations.

00:13:33.400 | And that's one point.

00:13:35.520 | And the other point was taking professional help here.

00:13:37.960 | So going to the psychologist was very, very important for me.

00:13:42.680 | And sometimes you try to do it by yourself.

00:13:44.640 | And I tried for years.

00:13:46.680 | But getting help from outside was the key to survive here.

00:13:50.920 | Yeah. And do you think, obviously, you said you started getting into memory

00:13:56.120 | without any intention of it.

00:13:57.360 | You saw it on TV.

00:13:58.400 | Do you think a gifted memory like yours is something that can be trained or and

00:14:04.720 | needs natural talent?

00:14:06.120 | Or do you think it's something that anyone can do and learn on their own?

00:14:09.520 | And yeah, that's a good point, because people always think, oh, this is a highly

00:14:15.120 | gifted guy, talented.

00:14:17.000 | And you were always doing it like since you were a kid.

00:14:20.600 | It's not it's not true because I was start learning that.

00:14:24.320 | And of course, I think if you want to go to the top 10 in the world or you want to

00:14:29.480 | be the world champion, I guess there is some talent involved for that, because

00:14:34.280 | otherwise everyone could be a world champion.

00:14:36.280 | But for increasing your own memory skills by using memory techniques, that's

00:14:43.320 | something everyone can do and everyone can have a huge, huge boost for their own

00:14:48.720 | memories with these techniques.

00:14:50.920 | Not everyone can get around 100 meters in under 10 seconds.

00:14:54.800 | But if you try hard, you maybe can be 12 or 13 seconds.

00:14:59.200 | So that's the same about memory.

00:15:02.120 | You found this thing at age 19.

00:15:05.200 | You weren't even thinking about really in any professional way.

00:15:08.800 | And then you stumbled on it and then you were world champion.

00:15:12.720 | Are there other things that you think you now realize maybe you'd be the best poker

00:15:16.720 | player in the world?

00:15:17.600 | And has that led you to explore new disciplines or skills that you might have

00:15:24.120 | and you didn't know about?

00:15:25.040 | Yeah, definitely.

00:15:26.480 | You try things.

00:15:27.760 | If you have this skill, these memory skills.

00:15:30.440 | Poker doesn't work because you always get new cards.

00:15:34.320 | And I mean, two cards, memorizing two cards should be possible for everyone.

00:15:38.320 | And but of course, I was thinking about beating blackjack, memorizing these

00:15:43.520 | cards, a sequence of cards that are out there and such stuff.

00:15:48.600 | But I mean, I'm not rich, so it didn't work so well because casinos really take

00:15:54.240 | care of changing the deck of cards nowadays.

00:15:56.880 | So they change the deck of cards and then you don't have any advantage anymore.

00:16:00.440 | But on the other hand, what one thing would really increase for myself, which I

00:16:05.000 | realized not in the first place, but later is my creativity, because when you

00:16:10.000 | train your memory, it's all about strategies.

00:16:12.240 | And these strategies involve creating visual images, connecting stuff to each

00:16:17.400 | other, which is not related to each other.

00:16:20.600 | And doing that over and over again, it looks like that I'm, yeah, my creativity

00:16:27.080 | really increased a lot because I sometimes I feel I see connections where no one

00:16:33.720 | else sees the connection, and that really helps me in my business, daily

00:16:38.440 | life and in brainstorming sessions.

00:16:40.680 | So yeah, this is really one thing what improved a lot here.

00:16:45.520 | That's awesome.

00:16:46.560 | Yeah.

00:16:46.840 | I want to dig into how you do that kind of exercise and practice.

00:16:50.640 | But before, I thought it might be really helpful, maybe you could walk me through

00:16:55.120 | an example of what it looks like to actually use a memory technique to

00:17:01.000 | memorize something, and we can kind of explore that together.

00:17:04.240 | Okay, let's do that.

00:17:06.760 | So the most popular memory technique is the memory palace.

00:17:10.960 | Maybe you have heard about it.

00:17:12.720 | It's also in some pop culture, like Sherlock Holmes is using the memory palace.

00:17:18.840 | So the memory palace is more than 2000 years old, and this is a technique where

00:17:26.000 | you walk or you have a mental walk, for example, through your apartment or house.

00:17:32.000 | So imagine yourself standing in the front of your door.

00:17:35.320 | So that's the first location.

00:17:37.040 | You say, okay, door is the first location, and then you enter your

00:17:41.280 | apartment and then what comes to the left?

00:17:43.600 | What is there for you, Chris?

00:17:45.080 | What is on the left when you come into your apartment?

00:17:48.200 | When I walk in the door on the left is the living room.

00:17:50.960 | The living room.

00:17:52.200 | Okay.

00:17:52.560 | So you enter the living room and what's there?

00:17:55.520 | Is there any furniture?

00:17:56.960 | Is it TV or a chair or what is it?

00:17:59.920 | There's two sofas and a coffee table.

00:18:02.680 | Okay.

00:18:03.520 | So, and the trick is to do it in a specific direction.

00:18:07.280 | So I entered my apartment and to the left, there is a wardrobe.

00:18:11.240 | And then I pass the wardrobe and I go to the left, there's my bathroom.

00:18:15.040 | And there is the first thing is the laundry machine.

00:18:19.440 | And then I go around the room, like going clockwise through my room.

00:18:23.720 | So that's what I do.

00:18:25.120 | And what would happen with you if you do that?

00:18:27.400 | So you enter your room and then what comes to the left?

00:18:30.080 | Try to go clockwise through your living room here.

00:18:32.840 | Door is number one.

00:18:33.920 | And then what comes if you go clockwise through your living room?

00:18:36.560 | Yeah.

00:18:37.320 | If I go clockwise, there's, my daughter has a little table that she has all

00:18:41.800 | her little books on is the first thing.

00:18:43.600 | Then there's a couch, then there's a fireplace, and then, then it's kind of

00:18:48.200 | all connected in one room to the dining room.

00:18:50.080 | So there's a big dining room table.

00:18:52.120 | And then that actually connects to the kitchen.

00:18:54.480 | So there's a island in the kitchen with a sink and, and the

00:18:57.800 | fridge is over there and the stove.

00:19:00.000 | Let's, let's start with these.

00:19:01.760 | So we have front door.

00:19:02.960 | We have your little table with the books.

00:19:05.480 | We have the sofa, we have the fireplace and we have the dining table.

00:19:09.440 | Okay.

00:19:10.000 | Five.

00:19:10.960 | Uh, so I already can imagine your house very well, but that's also a

00:19:15.000 | cool thing about being a memory coach.

00:19:16.520 | You always know how people live.

00:19:18.520 | Um, so you enter your door, this is the first.

00:19:22.400 | And now if you want to memorize something new, let's make a very easy

00:19:26.840 | example, the shopping list, classical example, but let's say you want to

00:19:30.800 | memorize five items or let's say, let's make it 10 because five is not so

00:19:35.040 | impressive, impressive.

00:19:36.360 | Let's make it 10.

00:19:37.560 | So first two items you want to buy, Chris, up to you.

00:19:41.600 | We need some paper towels, paper towels, paper towels, and the second one.

00:19:46.520 | Let's see, we need some, we need tea, chamomile tea.

00:19:49.880 | Okay.

00:19:50.680 | So the first step paper towels and tea, and now you connect these

00:19:55.560 | two items to your front door.

00:19:57.400 | And you do that by creating a interesting, crazy story.

00:20:03.440 | So for example, you come to your front door and there's a lot of tea

00:20:07.120 | over all over the place.

00:20:08.400 | Maybe your daughter, I don't know, she did something with the tea on the

00:20:11.320 | front door and you would take your paper towels and you clean the door.

00:20:14.720 | Okay.

00:20:16.120 | Okay.

00:20:16.440 | First two tea and paper towels.

00:20:18.240 | Next two items.

00:20:19.320 | What is it?

00:20:19.800 | Let's see.

00:20:20.960 | What else do we need?

00:20:21.840 | Let's say we need some chicken and we need some sparkling water.

00:20:25.880 | Sparkling water.

00:20:27.120 | Okay.

00:20:27.480 | Next location on your journey is the little table with the books, right?

00:20:32.200 | Yep.

00:20:32.760 | Okay.

00:20:33.600 | So imagine on this table, you just close your eyes and try to visualize that.

00:20:38.520 | There is a chicken.

00:20:39.320 | It can be a living chicken.

00:20:40.920 | I mean, you will not buy a living chicken, but there's a living chicken.

00:20:44.280 | What is the chicken doing?

00:20:45.280 | It's drinking sparkling water because it really likes sparkling water and says,

00:20:48.720 | Hey, Chris, this is a nice sparkling water.

00:20:51.080 | Please don't kill me.

00:20:52.120 | Something.

00:20:52.920 | Yeah.

00:20:53.200 | And, uh, you try to imagine that on the table of your daughter's book table.

00:20:59.360 | Yeah.

00:20:59.600 | And, uh, next location was, what was it?

00:21:02.880 | The sofa, right?

00:21:03.760 | Yep.

00:21:04.320 | Okay.

00:21:05.080 | Next two items.

00:21:06.040 | Let's see.

00:21:07.440 | We probably need some hot sauce and rice.

00:21:10.200 | Hot sauce and rice.

00:21:12.640 | You try to make a story with hot sauce, rice, and your sofa.

00:21:16.040 | And it can be as crazy as I want, right?

00:21:18.920 | It can be as crazy as you want.

00:21:20.680 | It can be silly, stupid, whatever.

00:21:23.120 | Yeah.

00:21:23.720 | So I I'm imagining that the sofa is covered in hot sauce and these little

00:21:27.680 | kernels of rice are jumping around like little people trying to avoid falling

00:21:32.200 | into and covering themselves in hot sauce.

00:21:34.440 | Nice.

00:21:35.360 | Nothing to add here.

00:21:36.560 | It's perfect.

00:21:37.280 | Okay.

00:21:38.080 | Next is fireplace.

00:21:39.640 | What do you want to buy?

00:21:40.480 | Two more items.

00:21:41.760 | I just did grocery.

00:21:43.800 | So I'm like, I don't need too many more.

00:21:45.040 | We need some lettuce.

00:21:46.000 | And let's say we need some, some dish soap for washing the dishes.

00:21:49.480 | Okay.

00:21:50.240 | Connect that to the fireplace.

00:21:52.120 | Okay.

00:21:53.480 | This one's less easy.

00:21:54.640 | I'm imagining.

00:21:55.760 | And, and I don't, I'm imagining an old man washing lettuce with soap

00:21:59.240 | and then throwing it into the fire.

00:22:00.680 | So you have this soap.

00:22:02.080 | Soap was the second thing, right?

00:22:03.520 | Yeah.

00:22:03.840 | There's like a soap in the water and we're washing lettuce before

00:22:07.000 | we throw it, before we throw it in the fire.

00:22:09.640 | As long as you don't buy an old man and everything's fine.

00:22:12.520 | So, and then on the table, last one, let's say two from my side, you buy

00:22:17.360 | bananas and you buy some chocolate.

00:22:20.600 | So connect that to the dining table.

00:22:22.760 | Yeah.

00:22:24.320 | I imagine just a chocolate fountain, just dipping the bananas in the

00:22:28.320 | chocolate fountain, like fondue and eating them.

00:22:30.560 | It could be also your dining table is made out of chocolate and you can't

00:22:35.400 | avoid biting into your table when you come home each and every time.

00:22:39.400 | So it's almost gone already.

00:22:41.720 | So chocolate and banana.

00:22:43.480 | And I'm pretty sure you can now call out all these 10 items.

00:22:47.480 | Try that.

00:22:49.160 | Let's go with door.

00:22:50.400 | What was there?

00:22:51.080 | The door was paper towels and tea.

00:22:53.640 | And then we went to the table and there is a, gosh, the chicken's

00:22:58.400 | telling me not to eat it.

00:22:59.360 | And the chicken.

00:23:01.200 | Oh, what is it?

00:23:03.760 | What is it doing?

00:23:04.600 | I feel this is embarrassing.

00:23:09.000 | The chicken.

00:23:09.720 | Don't, don't, don't worry.

00:23:11.040 | It's, it's, it's, it's drinking something.

00:23:13.400 | Oh, the sparkling water.

00:23:14.720 | Oh, the chicken's drinking.

00:23:15.960 | I feel like that was the one where you, where you, you told the story.

00:23:19.000 | I should have told the story myself.

00:23:20.400 | Cause the next one, it's like, there's rice on the hot sauce.

00:23:22.920 | It's obvious.

00:23:23.720 | And then there's a soap and lettuce and bananas and chocolate.

00:23:27.000 | Nice.

00:23:28.560 | 10, 9 out of 10.

00:23:29.840 | Okay.

00:23:30.160 | But that's exactly what the point here.

00:23:32.560 | If I tell you the story, it might be good or it might be not so good, but in the

00:23:36.840 | end, it's about your own visualization and then it's easy for you to memorize 10 items.

00:23:41.480 | It's also possible for 20 and 30 and even for 50 or more.

00:23:45.520 | And you can do that forward, backwards, any, any way you want it.

00:23:50.680 | And that's such a cool technique, which not just works for shopping lists, of course,

00:23:56.240 | but for actually for everything.

00:23:57.920 | And that's also how I memorize a deck of cards with this memory palace method.

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00:27:09.320 | And is this the technique that, you know, most people use to, for all these

00:27:15.200 | disciplines and championships and all that?

00:27:18.400 | Everyone who is in this competition uses the Memory Palace technique

00:27:23.880 | in one or more disciplines.

00:27:26.160 | I don't think there has ever been a world champion not using the Memory Palace.

00:27:30.320 | That's the key technique for everyone who starts with memory

00:27:34.560 | sports or memory training.

00:27:36.520 | So what you have here, what you need is a journey through your apartment,

00:27:40.600 | like you did it here, and not just five locations, but even 10 or 20.

00:27:45.840 | And then you can imagine if you just, this time we put two images on one

00:27:50.160 | location, but you can also put one on one location, then you have

00:27:53.720 | just five items in five locations.

00:27:55.840 | Yeah, you have to try it for yourself, visualize everything,

00:27:59.400 | and then it works very well.

00:28:00.800 | Yeah.

00:28:01.560 | And you said these techniques have been around for a while.

00:28:03.720 | How old are they?

00:28:04.640 | More than 2000 years.

00:28:06.800 | Um, actually the first one who has written something about it was a Roman

00:28:11.920 | poet and he was writing it in his book, "De Oda Tore" around 2000 years ago.

00:28:17.960 | And he used that to give free speeches.

00:28:21.200 | So not free speeches, but yeah, speeches without notes.

00:28:24.640 | So he was talking without notes and memorizing all the stuff he

00:28:30.000 | has to memorize for his speech.

00:28:32.400 | And yeah, he described this technique for the first place in the first place.

00:28:36.240 | But I think it's older because it's, I think it's just a natural thing.

00:28:41.920 | To, to memorize things in locations.

00:28:45.240 | For example, let's say 10,000 years back, I am pretty sure that people memorized

00:28:51.360 | where was the apple tree or where was the dangerous tiger living or something.

00:28:57.760 | So people are connecting things to locations since they can think.

00:29:02.720 | And what we do here is we using this mental, mental skill of the brain,

00:29:08.440 | which is, which is there for, for other stuff and we do it on

00:29:12.080 | purpose, not just accidentally.

00:29:13.640 | Yeah.

00:29:14.840 | So what I think is interesting is a lot of sports, and I'm

00:29:18.120 | curious if, if memory is the same.

00:29:19.880 | You know, the time it takes someone to run a mile or run a hundred meter dash

00:29:25.480 | has kind of gotten better and better and better over time is the ability of the

00:29:30.440 | world champion, you know, two, three years ago, better than 20 years ago.

00:29:35.000 | And has memory similarly evolved?

00:29:37.960 | Yeah, definitely.

00:29:39.120 | I'm not sure if memory per se evolved, but the, yeah, the, the

00:29:44.160 | results improved so much.

00:29:47.160 | So the memorizing a deck of cards in under 30 seconds sounded crazy.

00:29:53.960 | 15 years ago, no one could do it.

00:29:56.600 | And nowadays it's 12 seconds for a deck of cards.

00:30:00.240 | And so the scores and the results tripled or even more within the

00:30:05.800 | last 20 years, and it's still going on.

00:30:09.760 | And I'm really curious where it will go in the end, but also the, for example,

00:30:16.160 | the record for five minute numbers, memorizing numbers for five minutes was

00:30:21.840 | 333, 15 years ago, then it's 400.

00:30:25.240 | Now, then it was 450, now it's 560.

00:30:28.640 | So it's always a process of improving here.

00:30:31.640 | And that's pretty cool to see things are still evolving.

00:30:35.280 | But what's interesting is the technique hasn't evolved, right?

00:30:40.840 | It's just people are faster, but are they still using the same

00:30:44.320 | technique they used 15 years ago?

00:30:46.200 | And if so, why do you think people are getting better?

00:30:49.400 | So there are two things, I guess.

00:30:51.000 | So on the one hand, of course, people using the same techniques, the memory

00:30:55.680 | palace technique, but people have some variations, like some people put one

00:31:01.200 | image on one location, two images, like we did, or even three.

00:31:05.120 | So there are kind of variations, but that's not the reason why

00:31:08.960 | people are improving here.

00:31:11.120 | I think the main reason is that the bar is higher nowadays.

00:31:16.760 | 15 years ago, the bar was like 333 digits in five minutes.

00:31:21.560 | That was the holy grail.

00:31:23.120 | That was super cool.

00:31:25.040 | And you couldn't think that you can do it, but you trained

00:31:28.520 | very hard to get to that score.

00:31:30.720 | Nowadays, the bar is 560.

00:31:33.280 | So people start with a different point to look forward to.

00:31:39.840 | So if you see 560 is possible, then you don't feel very good with 300 anymore.

00:31:45.720 | You try to reach farther in the first place already.

00:31:49.400 | And I think that's very important.

00:31:51.200 | Knowing what is possible is a very important thing for people who start

00:31:55.880 | nowadays, because I see so many young athletes starting today and in half a

00:32:01.760 | year or in a year, they achieve results, which I trained 10 years for, because

00:32:06.680 | they are aiming for different heights when they start memory sports.

00:32:12.960 | And that's the key here.

00:32:14.560 | There's someone who has already achieved that.

00:32:17.760 | So you say, "I can do that."

00:32:19.520 | Yeah, I think this reminds me of the Roger Bannister effect, which is the

00:32:25.400 | first person to break four minutes on the mile, and then it was something

00:32:29.680 | like the year after that, it's like almost everyone could do it.

00:32:32.280 | So that makes a lot of sense.

00:32:33.880 | So I have a few follow-ups on the memory palace.

00:32:36.800 | You know, I went through this example with you.

00:32:39.200 | I feel like now I could definitely get it right, especially

00:32:42.120 | even the sparkling water.

00:32:43.320 | And I'll probably remember it in the morning as well, but how does it work?

00:32:47.560 | If you're doing multiple disciplines, do you use the same memory palace?

00:32:52.480 | And what happens if you're recycling that memory palace five,

00:32:55.720 | six, seven times in a few days?

00:32:57.720 | Does it all get mixed up or do you have a way to wipe it clean so you can start

00:33:01.800 | over or it just seems like it would be difficult to do it a lot of different

00:33:05.240 | times?

00:33:05.680 | Yeah, right.

00:33:06.840 | So the first thing is that for such a memory competition, like a world

00:33:10.640 | championship, I not have just one memory palace.

00:33:13.720 | You have now a part of a memory palace with five locations, but you could easily

00:33:19.760 | do like 30 or 50 in your house, I guess.

00:33:22.680 | So I have not just five locations or 50, I have more than 2000 locations.

00:33:28.520 | And that means a location is the door, a location is the table.

00:33:32.960 | So I have 30 in my apartment.

00:33:35.560 | I have 50 in my mother's apartment.

00:33:39.160 | I have 100 in the university.

00:33:41.760 | I have 150 in Japan, in a hotel when I was there.

00:33:45.560 | I have some in San Diego.

00:33:47.440 | I have some in Bahrain.

00:33:48.840 | I have some in the UK.

00:33:50.920 | I have some in the supermarket around the corner.

00:33:53.880 | So I have memory palace all over the place.

00:33:57.120 | So that means that I can use fresh memory palaces in a memory competition all over

00:34:02.720 | the place.

00:34:03.240 | But you are right, things are there then.

00:34:05.880 | So what happens in the next memory competition?

00:34:08.200 | And the trick is just not recalling or reviewing it.

00:34:12.720 | So if you not review your shopping list for the next two weeks, you will forget

00:34:17.920 | it anyway.

00:34:19.120 | If you review it every day, you will never forget it.

00:34:22.360 | But if you don't review it, you will forget it.

00:34:25.120 | And that's what I do.

00:34:25.960 | I try to not review stuff what I memorized in a memory competition.

00:34:29.440 | And then it's got just gone at some point.

00:34:31.880 | And what I do in addition is I go through my memory palace and like going through

00:34:38.560 | it in an empty way, like just thinking of the door, just thinking of the table,

00:34:42.880 | thinking of the sofa without thinking of the actual image which I memorized.

00:34:47.360 | That also helps.

00:34:48.440 | So what technique are you using to kind of create, you know, let's take five

00:34:53.280 | minute numbers as an example, you're trying to remember a lot of numbers in a

00:34:57.200 | short period of time.

00:34:58.360 | How do you place those numbers?

00:35:00.640 | Is it, do you come up with a letter for a number or an image for a number?

00:35:04.800 | Or how does it work?

00:35:05.440 | Yeah, actually it's a letter for a digit.

00:35:08.440 | So the very basic example is the two.

00:35:11.960 | If you look at the two, it looks like a swan.

00:35:14.120 | Now look at the two, it looks a bit like a swan.

00:35:17.160 | So a two could be a swan, but that's of course just a very basic example.

00:35:21.320 | What I do is I have a letter like, or a number like three, and if I turn the

00:35:27.760 | three by 90 degrees, then it looks a little bit like an M, three is an M.

00:35:34.840 | And so if I have a three and another three, then I would try to find a word

00:35:42.200 | by adding vowels in the middle or to the end.

00:35:46.240 | So M and M, I would create the word mommy or mom.

00:35:50.920 | So you have an M, you have a vowel, you have another M.

00:35:53.840 | So the vowels are joker.

00:35:55.520 | You can use them for, at every place here.

00:35:58.520 | So, and another example for the one is like a T, looks a little bit like a T, the one.

00:36:04.360 | So you have T, one and three M.

00:36:07.720 | What could you create out of 13?

00:36:10.480 | One, three.

00:36:11.200 | What image could you create with a T and an M?

00:36:14.440 | Try to make a word here.

00:36:16.600 | Time.

00:36:17.080 | Time.

00:36:18.040 | Yeah.

00:36:18.440 | And how would I imagine time?

00:36:20.720 | Like a clock.

00:36:21.400 | I would see a watch or a clock or a team would be also possible.

00:36:24.800 | So when I have to memorize the number 33, then I imagine my mommy standing in

00:36:31.520 | front of the door, my mom standing in front of the door and on the table, there's a

00:36:36.320 | team fighting against each other.

00:36:38.440 | So 13, 33, 30.

00:36:40.800 | And that's what I do.

00:36:41.840 | So I transform a two digit or even a three digit number in a image and I

00:36:48.560 | put that image on my location.

00:36:50.760 | And yeah, what I did is really, I created the system with 1000 images.

00:36:56.640 | So I have a fixed image for every three digit number.

00:37:00.720 | So if you name a three digit number, I probably can name you the image for that.

00:37:05.440 | Let's try 712.

00:37:08.920 | That's in English.

00:37:10.000 | It's a guillotine.

00:37:11.640 | I'm not sure if that's the right word.

00:37:13.440 | So in, in, in, in France, in the 18th century, if, when you get killed, you

00:37:20.120 | have to be, how do you call it guillotine?

00:37:22.600 | Yeah, guillotine.

00:37:24.240 | Exactly.

00:37:25.040 | That's a 712, a guillotine.

00:37:26.880 | And that's because a seven is a seven, a G or kind of how?

00:37:32.840 | Yeah, it's a G and the one is a T and the two is an N.

00:37:38.360 | They have guillotine.

00:37:39.280 | Okay.

00:37:40.640 | It's a good example.

00:37:41.600 | So when you have a longer number that you have to memorize, is the process you go

00:37:46.880 | through, what's the first three numbers, convert it to this thing, which for you,

00:37:51.080 | because you have a database of a thousand or 999, you know, different numbers, you

00:37:56.440 | just immediately go guillotine, throw it in the first place of the memory palace.

00:37:59.640 | Next three, throw it in the second, next three, throw it in the third.

00:38:02.280 | Exactly.

00:38:03.480 | If you train that very hard and very often you become faster and faster.

00:38:07.720 | So I can do 500 in five minutes, 500 digits in five minutes, which means like

00:38:14.520 | 167 transformations and putting it on a location.

00:38:18.680 | And so for that, you'd be using kind of two different memory palaces

00:38:23.320 | going from one to the next.

00:38:24.520 | If I, if I have 167 images, I need a memory palace with 167 locations.

00:38:32.680 | Or if I have just one with 100, I start there and the other 67, I go to another

00:38:37.920 | one or even I put two images on a location.

00:38:41.400 | So I have six digits on a location like we did here with two images.

00:38:45.240 | Then I spare some locations.

00:38:47.240 | I just need half of them, but that's the technical part.

00:38:50.080 | Yeah.

00:38:51.660 | And similarly for cards, how, how does that work?

00:38:55.400 | Yeah, actually the same.

00:38:56.520 | I transform every card into an image.

00:39:00.280 | And actually what I do is I transform every possible combination

00:39:05.880 | of two cards into one image.

00:39:08.240 | So if you have two playing cards, there are 2,704 combinations possible.

00:39:14.640 | And I have a unique image for every of these combinations.

00:39:19.960 | And then I transform two cards into an image and put it on a location.

00:39:23.360 | 26 locations done.

00:39:26.360 | Okay.

00:39:26.860 | Okay.

00:39:27.520 | So that makes sense.

00:39:28.440 | I know one of the other disciplines that I didn't realize until I was kind

00:39:32.280 | of doing some research is on names and, you know, names are something that,

00:39:37.040 | you know, I want to get to eventually after this about, you know, memorizing

00:39:40.440 | them, but how do you, you know, numbers there's, there's a finite set of them.

00:39:44.440 | Cards, there's a finite set, but, but new names, is there truly a finite

00:39:49.200 | set where you, you kind of have all of them or are you using a different

00:39:52.040 | technique to kind of memorize random names in, in that discipline?

00:39:56.920 | Yeah.

00:39:57.120 | So names is actually the discipline or not even a discipline, but also in daily

00:40:02.360 | life where most people or many people struggle and in a competition, it's,

00:40:07.400 | it's very hard because we have international names and there are Chinese

00:40:10.880 | names, Mongolian names and Russian names, a lot of different names from different

00:40:15.400 | countries, but, and that's quite tough because you have to be very creative

00:40:20.240 | and try to find an image for a very, very, yeah, unknown name for yourself.

00:40:27.120 | And that this is actually not a finite set.

00:40:31.120 | There are unlimited names out there.

00:40:33.640 | If you look on the international scale, but if you look just national names,

00:40:38.440 | look up national names and you would check the 100 most used names in the

00:40:44.480 | US, then they repeat over and over again.

00:40:47.560 | And of course there are names which are unique, but many names repeat.

00:40:53.320 | And if you have an unique image for every, let's say the list of the 100

00:40:59.520 | most familiar male names and female names, and like Chris is a Christian,

00:41:04.960 | someone who was a Christian, who was praying all the time.

00:41:07.800 | So imagine you, I would imagine you sitting here and praying before the

00:41:12.440 | interview because you want to do it right, you're a Chris Christian and you

00:41:17.720 | will meet a lot of Chris's in your life.

00:41:19.680 | So you can memorize that.

00:41:21.080 | And if you have a list of that, the most familiar, most common names,

00:41:26.680 | that's what I'm searching for.

00:41:28.120 | Then you have a huge advantage.

00:41:30.320 | Just try to create an image for the most common names and then,

00:41:34.240 | yeah, then you're ready to go.

00:41:35.640 | And if it's getting more difficult, you need to be more creative.

00:41:39.280 | Yeah.

00:41:39.560 | Yeah.

00:41:40.760 | Well, this, this is a perfect segue.

00:41:42.240 | So I'm impressed at how quickly I remembered the list minus the water,

00:41:46.680 | you know, and now that I think about it, I'm like, wow, I could very easily

00:41:50.120 | walk through tea, paper towels, duck, water, rice, hot sauce, lettuce,

00:41:54.720 | soap, bananas, chocolate.

00:41:55.960 | Like it's so easy now.

00:41:58.200 | But when I think about things that could practically improve my work or, or my

00:42:03.000 | personal or professional life, you know, a list is something that's, you know,

00:42:06.280 | pretty easy that I could just write down.

00:42:08.560 | Obviously, if I don't have to, that's great.

00:42:10.320 | And there are circumstances where I can't, but there are a lot of other

00:42:13.440 | things that I think, you know, are more practical things like

00:42:16.920 | remembering names at an event.

00:42:18.400 | So maybe I could start there and, and kind of push on a few techniques that

00:42:23.320 | might be helpful for the kinds of memory exercises or skills that would be really

00:42:29.200 | helpful in our personal and professional lives.

00:42:31.520 | Yeah.

00:42:32.600 | And I guess names and faces is one of these things, because let's say you

00:42:37.120 | are going into a new job, to a new company, and they have to meet like

00:42:41.480 | 30 new colleagues in the first day.

00:42:43.680 | How cool would it be if you would be able to memorize all these

00:42:47.560 | names on the first day?

00:42:48.760 | I mean, you really make a different impression then, because if you memorize

00:42:53.520 | all these names, then, and you say, Hey, Chris, Hey, Andy, Hey, Maria, nice to

00:43:00.360 | meet you, then it's really a different story if you would do it like, Hey, you

00:43:06.320 | with the red shirt, what was your name again?

00:43:08.880 | So that gives you a social skill, which is very, very nice to have.

00:43:14.400 | So the story here, or the technique here is what I really talked about

00:43:19.680 | already is like creating an image for many common names, like Chris, Maria

00:43:25.000 | is also a Christian image, like the mother Maria, but having something else.

00:43:29.880 | Maybe you can name, you have a name on your mind, which I can give it a try on.

00:43:35.920 | Chris.

00:43:36.240 | Yeah.

00:43:36.520 | I mean, it's funny you said Andy, which was actually the name of the first

00:43:39.840 | person I met at the company I work at.

00:43:41.720 | And, and so would you just come up with an image that is unique to

00:43:46.560 | that person or unique to the name?

00:43:48.560 | To the name, because you connect the image to the name then that's

00:43:52.520 | the second step, second step.

00:43:54.400 | So what can you think of an image if you think of the name Andy?

00:44:01.360 | Yeah, what, what, what comes to mind for me is the, the Toy Story doll

00:44:06.320 | that has Andy written on the boot.

00:44:07.920 | Nice.

00:44:09.000 | Okay.

00:44:09.480 | Now you have that doll and you need to connect that doll to

00:44:14.160 | the real Andy in your company.

00:44:16.200 | So try to find something.

00:44:18.240 | What is unique about this Andy in your company?

00:44:20.960 | Does he have the very big ears or always wearing nice shirts or a very deep voice?

00:44:29.200 | Something unique about that guy.

00:44:31.200 | What is it?

00:44:31.640 | Yeah, I'm afraid he's going to be listening.

00:44:35.360 | So I have to be careful here.

00:44:36.680 | Yeah.

00:44:37.320 | Maybe he has beautiful eyes or something.

00:44:39.320 | I feel like I I've seen Andy wear a lot of sweaters, you know,

00:44:42.680 | he used to have longer hair.

00:44:43.840 | He's, he's a little taller than most people.

00:44:45.640 | Okay.

00:44:46.240 | Longer hair is a nice one.

00:44:47.440 | So you could try to imagine this little doll crawling through his hair.

00:44:52.920 | So if you would see him next time, I, I'm pretty sure you

00:44:58.560 | cannot avoid thinking of that.

00:45:00.560 | So this doll crawling through his hair.

00:45:02.680 | So you would imagine, ah, this is Andy, the doll here.

00:45:05.960 | And so this name, this man's name is Andy.

00:45:09.440 | Of course, you know, know Andy already, but that's how it works.

00:45:12.360 | So you try to find a unique feature.

00:45:14.960 | On the person in the face or in the voice or whatever makes it this person unique.

00:45:20.720 | And you connect your image from the name to that feature.

00:45:23.880 | So if you, when you need, when you meet the person again, you see the feature

00:45:28.760 | and there is the name connected to that feature, actually a bit like the

00:45:33.040 | memory palace, because in the memory palace, you connect images to locations.

00:45:37.720 | And here you put, you connect images to special features and persons,

00:45:41.560 | and that works pretty well.

00:45:43.120 | So like Andy, I would have been a gun with any, and I would imagine, I'm

00:45:49.000 | not sure if you have seen this movie man in the moon, and I would imagine

00:45:55.400 | Andy Kaufman standing on the shoulder of this Andy, maybe making up his hair.

00:46:00.840 | So that would be maybe my story.

00:46:03.040 | And it's, it's a matter of training.

00:46:05.520 | If you do it just once, it's like, okay, I cannot, if I meet five new

00:46:09.920 | people, how can I do that?

00:46:11.760 | I mean, I don't have the time.

00:46:13.360 | It's like a hello, hello, hello.

00:46:15.120 | And I am very occupied by you saying my all my own name five times.

00:46:19.320 | But if you go into the situation and say, okay, I tried to memorize this name.

00:46:24.760 | Then you just use the name.

00:46:26.280 | Hi, Andy.

00:46:27.200 | Nice to meet you.

00:46:27.960 | And then you create your image afterwards.

00:46:30.120 | So you don't have to do it on spot, but be just more aware of memorizing names.

00:46:35.920 | That's the first step.

00:46:36.720 | And the second step is using these memory techniques.

00:46:39.280 | Yeah.

00:46:40.160 | So it sounds like, you know, the advice I'd always heard is try to

00:46:43.440 | repeat the person's name a lot.

00:46:45.000 | And it sounds like that's a good technique for the short term, but

00:46:48.760 | it probably doesn't last forever.

00:46:50.080 | So you could use this to take that even further.

00:46:52.960 | Yes.

00:46:54.040 | And you use that for short term and then you take that name.

00:46:57.960 | And when you left the situation, you just make your image

00:47:02.320 | because that lasts way longer.

00:47:04.800 | So use that short term memory, but then go with and create a story, create an

00:47:11.240 | image, and that works pretty well for that.

00:47:13.720 | And I mean, there's other stuff like talking without notes, going into

00:47:17.480 | an important negotiation, for example.

00:47:19.800 | You want to talk about six important points and you don't want to look on

00:47:23.760 | your notes all over the place.

00:47:25.440 | You want to be present and you want to talk without notes.

00:47:29.320 | So you just memorize them.

00:47:30.960 | And even giving a longer speech is possible with these techniques because

00:47:36.040 | you put your keynotes on your memory palace.

00:47:38.720 | So you're going again with your memory palace and it's helpful in so many

00:47:43.400 | situations, not even, not just in exams.

00:47:46.360 | And it's obvious having that in for school or your studies, but it's also

00:47:51.440 | helpful in daily life and in social situations where you have to come up

00:47:55.880 | with important points and you may be very nervous.

00:47:59.760 | So you go into the job interview, you go into this negotiation by having all

00:48:05.800 | these keynotes in your head, in your memory palace, and you just have to walk

00:48:10.720 | through your memory palace being there in the job interview.

00:48:13.920 | Don't close your eyes too often.

00:48:15.520 | That works.

00:48:16.080 | That looks a bit strange, but if you're a bit trained to that, that you are able

00:48:21.000 | and capable of doing that just on spot without any problems anymore.

00:48:27.120 | Yeah.

00:48:28.040 | So that was one that I actually had in my mind.

00:48:30.720 | I was like, wow, today I had eight or 10 questions that I wanted to make

00:48:34.400 | sure I brought up in this interview.

00:48:36.120 | I was like, wow, it'd be great if I could memorize them and not look at my notes.

00:48:39.440 | How do you do that with kind of more abstract concepts?

00:48:42.520 | So if I wanted to ask a question about can you recycle a memory palace, I don't

00:48:48.800 | have a visual image like I did for a paper towel, or if I knew that I wanted

00:48:53.400 | to remind someone in a job interview about my experience spending a summer,

00:48:58.680 | you know, at a farm and maybe the farm has a better visual memory.

00:49:03.440 | So maybe it's a, I just wanted to remind them that, you know, I'm really good at

00:49:07.400 | being punctual and on time and that kind of thing, when you have these abstract

00:49:11.320 | things that aren't as visual, do you kind of convert them to objects or how do

00:49:16.320 | you, how do you memorize 10 points for a presentation?

00:49:19.760 | So the first thing is when you think about giving a presentation, what

00:49:25.720 | you do, let's say it's 10 points.

00:49:27.840 | If you would write down notes, your notes would be awesome.

00:49:31.640 | Maybe one, two or three images, three words, maybe not, not more because one,

00:49:37.120 | two or three words will remind you of the rest.

00:49:40.160 | So what you actually have to memorize is not the sentence, but just the keynote,

00:49:45.560 | the keyword.

00:49:46.280 | And for example, this question about recycling memory palaces could be a

00:49:52.200 | recycle bin, could be just a recycling something.

00:49:55.320 | So you imagine yourself standing at your door, recycling something there.

00:49:59.160 | And that word recycling would remind you of the rest or for even more abstract

00:50:04.520 | things like being on time that I would imagine that myself.

00:50:09.880 | So I would create a memory palace with 10 locations.

00:50:13.000 | And when I want to talk about the farm and next I want to talk about being on

00:50:17.960 | time on the first location, I would memorize the farm.

00:50:21.000 | It's easy, just the farmer or the chicken, another chicken.

00:50:23.920 | And then the second location I would memorizing being on time would memorize

00:50:28.760 | myself staying there, sitting there, looking at my watch and pointing on my

00:50:33.160 | watch, be on time.

00:50:34.720 | You have to be here.

00:50:35.720 | Maybe telling that my girlfriend or someone else, you have to be here on time.

00:50:41.600 | It's like imagine myself in this situation.

00:50:44.760 | And that is also an image.

00:50:46.360 | It's abstract, but it's an image.

00:50:48.160 | Being on time is a feeling.

00:50:49.760 | Trying to be being late is a feeling.

00:50:52.480 | You feel bad.

00:50:53.320 | You feel stressed.

00:50:54.840 | It's a feeling.

00:50:55.680 | And I try to memorize that feeling, being stressed on the couch, feeling I have to

00:51:00.840 | be on time sitting while I'm sitting on the couch, something in that direction.

00:51:04.800 | Yeah.

00:51:05.400 | It's not just an object you memorize.

00:51:07.960 | It's also everything what surrounds that object.

00:51:10.800 | It's not just the object itself.

00:51:12.560 | It's a feeling.

00:51:13.800 | It's a situation.

00:51:15.200 | It's the, yeah, the embarrassment of being not on time.

00:51:19.040 | That's what I memorize.

00:51:20.360 | Yeah.

00:51:21.160 | It reminds me of my rice and hot sauce example.

00:51:23.920 | Like the more visceral it is of the feeling of the rice is being burned in the

00:51:29.080 | hot sauce and the more kind of extreme it can be, maybe makes it more memorable.

00:51:33.880 | Exactly.

00:51:35.400 | And, uh, it hasn't, doesn't has to be extreme every time, but it has to be

00:51:41.160 | something what works for you.

00:51:42.640 | So if, if extreme works for you, go with that.

00:51:46.720 | But if more, uh, causal works for you, go with that.

00:51:50.920 | And if shiny works for you, go with shiny and it's up to you.

00:51:54.800 | Yeah.

00:51:55.800 | And does it work for things out of order?

00:51:58.320 | So, you know, when, if I'm trying to remember numbers, like you are in your,

00:52:03.080 | your, you know, your exercise for the competition, it's like, well, yeah, they

00:52:06.280 | have to be written down in order.

00:52:07.560 | So that makes a lot of sense.

00:52:08.760 | But, you know, if I was in a job interview and I knew there were seven or eight

00:52:12.640 | things that I really wanted to convey, the conversation is, is often led by the

00:52:17.000 | other person.

00:52:17.680 | It might flow in a different path.

00:52:19.400 | Is there some way to add, you know, a lack of order to memory, or is it just,

00:52:25.680 | you know, every time I'm about to say something, I kind of run through the

00:52:29.080 | list, start to finish again, because I don't know if that makes sense.

00:52:31.960 | So let's say you have like eight things you want to talk about.

00:52:35.320 | And as you said, the conversation is running somewhere else.

00:52:38.760 | And then you think there was something left.

00:52:40.600 | Then if you're used to it, it's not difficult to go through your eight

00:52:45.400 | locations very fast, like in, in three or four seconds, just look for, ah, I

00:52:49.760 | didn't talk about that.

00:52:50.760 | I want to talk about that.

00:52:52.040 | So you go through your list then.

00:52:53.320 | And I think that's the, that's the story here.

00:52:56.520 | Put it into the order on your memory pillars.

00:52:58.800 | And if it's not too many, you just can go through it.

00:53:02.000 | And if it's many, you can also go through it and maybe takes a bit more time, but

00:53:05.680 | actually you can find what is missing.

00:53:08.040 | That's always, if we would have, if I would call out now like eight out of, out

00:53:14.000 | of these 10 items, you would be able to check which are missing by just going

00:53:19.240 | through your locations and thinking about what did he never mentioned and you would

00:53:24.360 | come up with that.

00:53:25.200 | And that works pretty good.

00:53:26.320 | Yeah.

00:53:27.240 | It's funny.

00:53:27.600 | As you answering this, I was thinking about the one, the list we made earlier.

00:53:31.200 | And I was like, wow, I could go through that list so fast.

00:53:33.400 | So if anyone listening hasn't been trying to do this exercise on their own, I would

00:53:38.400 | strongly recommend maybe even pause, run through it yourself.

00:53:41.680 | And I'm just surprised at how easily that list comes together, despite that I missed

00:53:47.360 | one in the first time.

00:53:48.240 | But, but that's a, that's an experience where you, you have now, right?

00:53:52.680 | You, you have the feeling, wow, it works.

00:53:54.200 | And you could go backwards too, doesn't matter, forwards, backwards, and you need

00:53:59.000 | to make this experience.

00:54:00.440 | You need to do it by yourself because otherwise it's like, okay, he did that

00:54:04.240 | now, but I couldn't do it, but you will see it's so easy and it works so good.

00:54:09.920 | And you reviewed that so often now.

00:54:12.040 | I don't think that you will buy something else in the future anymore.

00:54:16.440 | Always the same items now.

00:54:18.200 | Yeah.

00:54:18.440 | Yeah.

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00:56:43.720 | I just want to thank you quick for listening to and supporting the show.

00:56:48.840 | Your support is what keeps this show going.

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00:57:03.080 | This has been so interesting.

00:57:04.600 | How, how do you exercise all your brain for all this and practice?

00:57:09.600 | Is it just doing it over and over again, even if it's not part of something you

00:57:14.120 | actually need to memorize?

00:57:15.280 | Are there types of things you do to, to train or practice to, to get better at

00:57:19.920 | memory?

00:57:21.080 | Yeah, I think that's also a very important question because if you want to do it for,

00:57:25.480 | or use it for your daily life stuff, you can jump right in and try, but the best

00:57:32.440 | practice is to do training like you would do in memory sports.

00:57:37.560 | So I don't go to the gym, but I have my memory sports gym at home, memorizing for

00:57:45.080 | memory sports, a list of words each day, or even 100 digits or something.

00:57:50.680 | So what I really do in my workout is memorizing random stuff, random words,

00:57:56.640 | random cards, random numbers, random names, and do that every day.

00:58:01.240 | That's, that's a good step because continuing doing it every day on a daily

00:58:07.240 | basis, or at least five times a week, that's the key.

00:58:10.560 | You can train once a month for three hours, or you train daily and training

00:58:16.040 | daily will give you a better result.

00:58:17.960 | Like brushing your teeth, you wouldn't do it for two hours once a month, but

00:58:22.440 | daily, and that's the best result.

00:58:24.040 | Yeah.

00:58:25.280 | Are there, are there other things that help with this besides memory, like

00:58:29.320 | mindfulness training with meditation or breath work or anything like that?

00:58:32.800 | Definitely.

00:58:34.280 | I mean, everything what helps you, what usually helps you in being not that

00:58:38.760 | stressed or more relaxed, just more relaxed or more aware of what is around

00:58:43.920 | you helps you.

00:58:44.840 | So meditation is really a good thing to calm yourself down.

00:58:49.320 | And that's what I told you before, before I start, I always have a one minute

00:58:53.720 | meditation to be more relaxed, to be in the memory mode.

00:58:57.640 | And, but actually memorizing for one hour is a meditation itself.

00:59:04.360 | Imagine that you, I mean, you're in your memory palace, you're just seeing

00:59:08.480 | images, you're putting them in a location in a rhythm, in a specific rhythm again.

00:59:13.680 | And again, for one hour, it's kind of a huge meditation.

00:59:18.320 | And you always feel your, that you, your thoughts are going somewhere else.

00:59:23.120 | You have to bring them back to the exercise and that's meditation, isn't it?

00:59:27.120 | So, but yeah, everything, what helps you feeling better, being more relaxed,

00:59:31.920 | having a more mindful mind helps you also, of course, for being better

00:59:37.880 | at your memory skills.

00:59:41.520 | Yeah, and do the benefits of all of this brain training, memory training

00:59:45.800 | translate to other skills like learning a language or anything like that?

00:59:51.240 | Yes.

00:59:52.160 | I mean, for learning a language, you could also use memory techniques.

00:59:54.840 | Learning vocabulary is, that's, memory techniques is built for that somehow.

01:00:00.960 | So learning vocabulary, for example, the world record for kids, we're learning a

01:00:06.000 | list of vocabulary in five minutes is 70 words in five minutes, 70 words in five

01:00:12.680 | minutes.

01:00:13.080 | And so that's a side skill you have automatically if you train your memory.

01:00:19.920 | But also what I said before is creativity.

01:00:23.080 | Imagine you create these stories all over the place.

01:00:26.040 | You become more creative.

01:00:27.640 | You see connections where you don't see them usually because you are telling

01:00:33.720 | stories, you're creative, you use your fantasy.

01:00:36.360 | So that's really also something what just happens on the side without really

01:00:42.720 | noticing it in the first place.

01:00:44.240 | Yeah, that's awesome.

01:00:46.280 | Yeah.

01:00:46.600 | I'm like very excited to start applying a lot of these lessons, but I'm also

01:00:50.440 | curious for you, you do coaching.

01:00:53.200 | Have you turned memory sports into a career and is this something that has

01:00:58.280 | become a profession for you?

01:00:59.600 | Do you win big prizes when you win championships or what's the state of

01:01:03.520 | memory as a profession?

01:01:04.960 | Yeah.

01:01:05.800 | So memory sports is a profession as a profession.

01:01:09.440 | I mean, over the last 16 years, I won two world championships and a lot of

01:01:14.720 | competitions.

01:01:15.440 | And I think my overall earnings are like $50,000, which sounds good in the first

01:01:21.720 | place, but over 15 years, you cannot make a living out of that.

01:01:25.960 | So prices are low.

01:01:27.680 | It's really under the radar.

01:01:29.440 | Not many people knowing about that.

01:01:31.160 | So sometimes you just get a nice sweet box as a prize or something.

01:01:37.840 | It's also nice, but getting chocolate doesn't help you paying your rent.

01:01:42.640 | So it's not about being on the top of the memory sports ladder here, but it's

01:01:47.840 | about giving the coaching.

01:01:49.320 | And I built my career on, of course, on my success in memory sports because that

01:01:55.200 | gives me the background.

01:01:56.960 | Being a world champion is great and you know what you are talking about.

01:02:00.920 | And now since a couple of years, I'm building this coaching, helping people

01:02:06.800 | for daily life issues, helping students, helping kids, but also, of course,

01:02:11.480 | business coaching for managers who want to manage their memory in a better way,

01:02:16.840 | memorizing all the clients or stuff like that.

01:02:20.160 | So that's really something where you can build a pay your rent from, but not

01:02:25.520 | because of memory sports.

01:02:27.080 | That's not possible.

01:02:27.840 | Yeah.

01:02:28.800 | I mean, you mentioned these events take place around the world.

01:02:31.760 | So over 16 years, I have to imagine you might've spent as

01:02:35.160 | much as you've won in flights.

01:02:36.840 | Yes.

01:02:37.680 | And I am on the top, right?

01:02:38.880 | So people not being in the top five have no chance to pay their bills just for the

01:02:44.840 | flights because there is no prize money left.

01:02:46.880 | The biggest prize money what I won once was $10,000 once and another time, 8,000.

01:02:53.200 | So even these 50,000 are just seven or eight competitions combined.

01:02:59.720 | Well, you could, you could tell all of the people not winning to check out a

01:03:02.720 | few episodes about points and miles.

01:03:04.960 | Maybe they can learn to travel for free, which is a good segue into, you know, my

01:03:10.280 | last question, which is about other, other things outside of memory.

01:03:13.880 | You've clearly been someone who's learned how to optimize and, and even hack their

01:03:18.240 | way to becoming kind of a world champion, not even kind of becoming a world

01:03:23.160 | champion twice, are there other aspects of your life where you've optimized

01:03:27.840 | things or you have unique tactics or routines that you use to upgrade the way

01:03:32.480 | you live?

01:03:32.960 | I tried a lot of things.

01:03:35.760 | One thing what I tried and which worked very well for quite a

01:03:39.000 | while was gamification of my life.

01:03:41.120 | So like having my own coin system, point system.

01:03:46.200 | So I was putting everything into this app and I was getting points for checking my

01:03:52.800 | emails.

01:03:53.320 | I was getting points for making this call to the dentist.

01:03:57.440 | I was getting points for having this new client.

01:04:01.280 | So for all things in my life.

01:04:03.440 | And then I rewarded myself when I get collected 100 points, I get something.

01:04:09.040 | So that worked pretty well actually.

01:04:11.360 | But at one point I was just creating tasks for my points scale and that was not going

01:04:20.560 | anywhere anymore.

01:04:21.480 | So I skipped that, but it was working for a while.

01:04:24.200 | And nowadays I'm using like, yeah, co-operative management tools, like you,

01:04:30.040 | what you use sometimes in companies.

01:04:32.120 | I use that for myself, for my different projects because I have so many different

01:04:35.920 | projects and it's good to have an overview about everything.

01:04:40.080 | So there's a big mind map included.

01:04:42.840 | I see everything on one page, but everything is also splitted.

01:04:47.080 | So, specific tasks for specific days, that's one thing what I can recommend.

01:04:52.360 | So if you have three projects, don't try to do all the project in one day, focus on

01:04:57.480 | one project each day.

01:04:58.800 | That also helps me.

01:04:59.840 | So yeah, managing my stuff and my things with these apps, there are plenty of them

01:05:07.480 | out there.

01:05:07.960 | This is really helpful for me and yeah, helps me to structure my life and my

01:05:13.240 | projects.

01:05:14.640 | And are there specific apps that you like that people can try out?

01:05:18.680 | Yeah, of course, ClickUp is one of these apps.

01:05:21.000 | I'm not sure if you know that, but it's pretty nice.

01:05:23.520 | It's amazing.

01:05:24.440 | It connects your Google calendar with your ClickUp and you have everything in one

01:05:29.560 | place and you can integrate Zoom and everything.

01:05:33.320 | So I'm not sponsored by that, but I can recommend it anyway.

01:05:37.760 | So ClickUp, if you hear me, please get in touch.

01:05:41.520 | Yeah, that would be great.

01:05:44.000 | Are there other apps or services online or videos that you think people should check

01:05:49.240 | out to practice memory or to learn more?

01:05:51.960 | For memory, Anki is a very, very helpful app to learn your own stuff.

01:05:59.040 | You can put in your own stuff you want to learn and you can use this Anki method,

01:06:03.400 | which is actually a review method.

01:06:05.720 | Memorizing stuff is not just about memorizing it, but also about reviewing.

01:06:10.400 | And some stuff you have to review more often, some less.

01:06:15.640 | And this app helps you here.

01:06:17.520 | That's really cool.

01:06:18.800 | And of course, if you want to learn something about or want to check out

01:06:22.960 | Memory Sports, you can watch my Twitch channel where I usually do commentary on

01:06:28.280 | Memory Sports matches.

01:06:29.680 | And that's a really cool thing.

01:06:32.120 | It's a small channel still, but yeah, you will meet all the great memories, people

01:06:37.080 | around the world on that channel and can recommend that.

01:06:40.840 | That's awesome.

01:06:41.520 | Yeah, I mean, that's the reason if you're watching the video, you'll see Johannes

01:06:45.120 | has a green screen and I'm sure that's what it's for.

01:06:47.440 | Any other places that people should find you online or learn about what you're

01:06:51.440 | working on?

01:06:51.840 | Yeah, so my Memory Sports TV is the name of my Twitch channel, but also my website

01:06:57.080 | Johannes-Malo.com.

01:06:59.840 | You can get in touch with me and to learn something about it.

01:07:02.520 | Yeah, so that's Johannes-Malo.com.

01:07:06.800 | I just want to make sure you get it.

01:07:09.880 | But the links to all that's in the show notes.

01:07:11.560 | And just last quick question on coaching.

01:07:13.720 | Is that something you offer to anyone that people listening who want to improve

01:07:17.680 | memory and their work or their personal life can get in touch?

01:07:20.800 | Yes, definitely get in touch.

01:07:22.800 | And then usually I have a talk with people because I really want to help them

01:07:29.000 | and I want to figure out, can I help you or not?

01:07:31.640 | That's the most important part.

01:07:33.280 | But if I can help you, then everyone can get in touch with me and let's see what

01:07:37.600 | we can do.

01:07:38.040 | That sounds great.

01:07:39.400 | Thank you so much for being here.

01:07:40.720 | This was fantastic.

01:07:41.760 | Thank you, Chris, for inviting me.

01:07:43.520 | And yeah, it was a nice show and I hope you will not forget your shopping list and

01:07:47.800 | maybe extend that for the next time.

01:07:49.760 | I will do my best.

01:07:51.480 | Thank you.

01:07:51.880 | Good.

01:07:52.160 | Thanks.

01:07:53.120 | What a fantastic conversation.

01:07:57.240 | I'm even recording this outro three days later because I wanted to see if I still

01:08:01.120 | remembered the list.

01:08:02.720 | Paper towels, tea, chicken, sparkling water, rice, hot sauce, lettuce, soap,

01:08:07.800 | chocolate, bananas.

01:08:09.000 | Boom.

01:08:09.440 | And I haven't even practiced at all since our conversation.

01:08:12.920 | So these techniques really work.

01:08:14.360 | I hope that for everyone listening, you get similar success and you have fun

01:08:18.520 | practicing this.

01:08:19.520 | And with a little practice, I'm hoping I can get this whole system down even

01:08:22.880 | faster.

01:08:23.440 | I'm going to be planning another Q&A episode soon, so please send over any

01:08:27.800 | questions you have for me or really any thoughts or feedback, too.

01:08:31.680 | I'm Chris at AllTheHacks.com and it's Thanksgiving in the US tomorrow.

01:08:36.160 | So everyone out there who's subscribed to the show, who's written me an email,

01:08:40.520 | posted a review online, shared the show with friends or anything else to support

01:08:45.160 | me and AllTheHacks, thank you so much.

01:08:48.200 | I am so grateful for all of you and I'm so excited for everything we have coming

01:08:53.320 | down the road.

01:08:54.040 | Finally, for those of you celebrating Thanksgiving, have a wonderful time.

01:08:57.880 | Hopefully you're getting to spend it with friends and family.

01:09:00.680 | That's it for this week.

01:09:01.720 | See you all next week.

01:09:02.800 | I want to tell you about another podcast I love that goes deep on all things

01:09:21.400 | money.

01:09:21.800 | That means everything from money hacks to wealth building to early retirement.

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01:09:29.720 | generational wealth and spending your money on the things you value than it is

01:09:33.560 | about clipping coupons to save a dollar.

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01:09:44.960 | I know because I was a guest on the show in December 2022, but recently I listened

01:09:50.480 | to an episode where Andrew shared 16 money stats that will blow your mind.

01:09:54.640 | And it was so crazy to learn things like 35% of millennials are not participating

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01:10:15.200 | Just search for the Personal Finance Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or

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