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00:01:34.600 | Hello and welcome to another episode of All The Hacks, a show about upgrading

00:01:44.040 | your life, money and travel all while spending less and saving more.

00:01:48.240 | I'm your host, Chris Hutchins, and I'm excited to have you on my journey to find

00:01:52.640 | All The Hacks.

00:01:53.520 | Before we jump into this episode, I just want to say thank you to everyone

00:01:57.840 | listening. This past week, we were nominated for a Plutus Award for Best New

00:02:02.560 | Personal Finance Podcast.

00:02:04.080 | And it's amazing to get that kind of validation for the show.

00:02:07.240 | To everyone that voted for us, thank you so much.

00:02:10.480 | And if you haven't already left a rating or review in the podcast app, now would be

00:02:14.880 | the perfect time to do so because I have a feeling there'll be a big part of how

00:02:19.160 | they choose the winners.

00:02:20.080 | OK, with that out of the way, I want to jump into today's episode because it's

00:02:24.600 | going to be fantastic.

00:02:26.040 | I'm joined today by Dr. Daria Rose, and we're going to talk all about food and the

00:02:30.720 | science behind healthy lifestyles, including what foods to eat more of, how to

00:02:34.920 | cook them so they taste better, how you can actually lose weight without giving up

00:02:38.800 | everything you love, and plenty of hacks for everything along the way.

00:02:42.520 | Daria got her degree in molecular and cell biology from UC Berkeley and her PhD in

00:02:47.760 | neuroscience from UCSF.

00:02:49.240 | She's the author of Foodist, Using Real Food and Real Science to Lose Weight

00:02:53.960 | Without Dieting, and the creator of the award-winning blog Summer Tomato, a site

00:02:58.560 | that Time magazine called one of the 50 best websites.

00:03:01.640 | Finally, she's the host of the incredible new podcast, The Daria Rose Show.

00:03:06.120 | So without further ado, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Dr.

00:03:10.560 | Daria Rose.

00:03:11.360 | Daria, thanks for being here.

00:03:15.040 | It is my pleasure.

00:03:16.280 | Thanks for having me.

00:03:16.960 | Yeah, so I just want to jump in and get your take on what do most people get wrong

00:03:22.040 | when they think about food and dieting?

00:03:24.840 | Well, I think there's a general misunderstanding that diets somehow work.

00:03:30.200 | And this is an understandable thing to be confused about because it really depends

00:03:36.040 | on the timeline.

00:03:36.760 | So for the short term, you can get pretty much any diet to work, right?

00:03:41.360 | You can do vegan, you can do paleo.

00:03:44.400 | I mean, if you're paying attention and you start something new and you're

00:03:48.320 | motivated, like it's pretty easy to lose weight for a few months.

00:03:51.520 | The issue, though, is that in the long term, 95% of diets fail.

00:03:57.240 | And I'm not just throwing that number out there.

00:03:58.520 | That's the actual number, like the long term success rate is low.

00:04:03.120 | And in fact, having a history of dieting is a predictor of weight gain.

00:04:07.880 | So in fact, dieting is a better way to gain weight than to lose weight.

00:04:12.520 | I mean, decades of data that show this, the best data set of people that we know

00:04:19.360 | that have lost weight and keeped it off is the National Weight Control Registry,

00:04:23.200 | I believe it's called.

00:04:23.920 | And there is a group of people that have succeeded.

00:04:26.720 | And it's just a small number.

00:04:27.920 | That's why they're studied so thoroughly.

00:04:29.840 | Wow.

00:04:30.600 | And when I say long term, I mean like three years.

00:04:32.800 | Like if you're saying has worked for like three years, you're in the top 5%.

00:04:36.960 | Wow.

00:04:37.640 | And so just to get a little bit of your background, how did this become an

00:04:41.400 | interest of yours?

00:04:42.360 | How did you become so knowledgeable and passionate about food and everything?

00:04:47.720 | Well, I grew up, I might date myself here, but I grew up in, in Southern

00:04:52.960 | California when Baywatch was really popular.

00:04:56.560 | And my mother was into all the things.

00:05:00.080 | She did the full Orange County mom business.

00:05:03.680 | And so I just grew up around it.

00:05:06.080 | I thought that's what just what women did to be normal.

00:05:09.640 | And it's tragic.

00:05:11.200 | I know a lot of women and girls who grew up that way, but you know, it's, it's

00:05:16.360 | horrible, it's a horrible way to live.

00:05:17.960 | It's you're constantly depriving yourself.

00:05:19.640 | You're constantly unhappy.

00:05:21.080 | You're never satisfied with the food you eat or how you look, which are two big

00:05:25.440 | factors in life.

00:05:26.320 | I mean, those are two things that have a lot of impact on your quality of life.

00:05:29.080 | And the other side of my life.

00:05:33.040 | So that was always just kind of going on in the background of existence.

00:05:35.560 | And then when I got to college, I realized I really loved biology and I

00:05:38.960 | really love neuroscience.

00:05:40.280 | And I actually developed the skills and training to be able to read scientific

00:05:46.600 | papers.

00:05:46.920 | And actually it helps to even be on the university campus and have access to the

00:05:50.200 | scientific papers because they're not generally accessible to the general

00:05:53.800 | public.

00:05:54.120 | And it's hard.

00:05:56.000 | It's a lot of many years of training to be able to actually read those papers.

00:05:58.640 | And that was when I realized that I didn't have to rely on like a glossy

00:06:02.520 | magazines and diet books to figure out how to do this.

00:06:04.960 | I could do it on my own.

00:06:06.080 | And so I just I literally spent an entire year just reading papers about how to

00:06:10.920 | be healthy and keep your weight in a good place.

00:06:14.520 | And it just ended up being astounding to me what I learned.

00:06:19.360 | And I totally changed my life.

00:06:20.960 | And then I felt like I had to tell everybody about it.

00:06:22.760 | Yeah.

00:06:23.480 | What were a few of those astounding things that you picked up along the way?

00:06:26.720 | Well, the big one was the dieting thing.

00:06:29.480 | It's like I knew that, like I knew that the diets didn't work for very long, but

00:06:32.760 | I don't know.

00:06:33.120 | For some reason, it's I kept trying, like doing the same thing over and over

00:06:35.840 | again, being crazy.

00:06:37.640 | And so that was a big one.

00:06:39.920 | Like the research is overwhelmingly convincing on that.

00:06:42.320 | There's no room for debate.

00:06:43.600 | I was literally doing the wrong thing.

00:06:45.000 | And the other thing I dug deep into the research of because I got frustrated.

00:06:50.520 | I was like, OK, it sounds like it's impossible to lose weight.

00:06:52.480 | But the the other question I had was, well, what about people who never have

00:06:56.960 | this problem, who are always healthy and always spend their entire lives?

00:07:00.560 | What do they do?

00:07:01.480 | And it turns out what they do is not doesn't seem very special if you just

00:07:05.960 | look from the outside.

00:07:06.720 | But on the inside, what they do is they have dozens of little habits that just

00:07:14.200 | sort of keep them in check, whether that's they walk a lot or they cook at

00:07:18.400 | home or everybody can have different ones.

00:07:20.360 | They don't it doesn't have to look the same for everybody.

00:07:22.480 | But healthy people tend to have a suite of habits that they use to sort of keep

00:07:27.400 | themselves in check.

00:07:28.240 | And it's really that simple.

00:07:30.520 | And it's very confusing.

00:07:31.400 | I was expecting to find something like, oh, you can't eat carbs or, oh, you need

00:07:34.600 | to fast for a certain number of hours a day.

00:07:36.680 | Or I thought there was going to be some trick, because when you read a lot of

00:07:39.560 | diet books, you're kind of prone to thinking there's going to be some special

00:07:42.520 | trick, but it's not.

00:07:43.400 | It's very boring if they cook vegetables and eat them.

00:07:46.000 | And what do you think causes people to believe that these diets will work if

00:07:51.320 | there's all this data that shows they won't?

00:07:52.840 | A lot of marketing money is in this industry.

00:07:57.480 | I mean, it's a multi-billion dollar industry and there's a lot of money to be

00:08:04.680 | made by making people feel bad and about themselves.

00:08:08.000 | And a certain vision of beauty is projected in the world and people are

00:08:12.280 | desperate to get that.

00:08:13.920 | And then the other big thing is, like I said earlier, all diets can kind of work

00:08:19.120 | for a little while.

00:08:19.880 | So it gives you this false sense of, oh, if I just keep doing that, it'll the

00:08:25.520 | problem's me, right?

00:08:26.480 | Like I just failed.

00:08:27.360 | Like I, if I just kept doing this thing, it would work.

00:08:30.960 | And that's just, that just goes against everything about the human mind and how

00:08:36.960 | it works and how your body works.

00:08:38.600 | So you think you're failing by not sticking to the diet, but in the reality

00:08:43.840 | is nobody can really do that.

00:08:45.520 | Nobody can torture themselves indefinitely and expect to magically like come out the

00:08:50.080 | other side happy.

00:08:50.840 | That's just not how the human brain works.

00:08:53.920 | And it's kind of remarkable when you think about it.

00:08:57.040 | Yeah.

00:08:57.800 | And so is the reason that any diet ends up failing just that people don't have, I

00:09:01.800 | guess, the willpower to keep it up or why does it fail?

00:09:05.160 | So that's part of it.

00:09:06.760 | It's usually what'll happen is people will find shortcuts.

00:09:12.040 | They're like, well, I can't eat carbs, but, oh, but all these like low carb energy

00:09:16.080 | bars are fantastic.

00:09:17.440 | They'll start like finding ways to sort of actually eat a bunch of processed food

00:09:22.120 | that isn't good.

00:09:22.800 | So you start being really good and like only eating chicken thighs and broccoli

00:09:27.280 | and salmon, but then it sort of morphs into something less good.

00:09:30.840 | But also sometimes even people that are able to mostly stick to it, your body

00:09:35.600 | compensates.

00:09:36.480 | So you can't really do the same thing and expect it to keep working.

00:09:43.040 | You have to change your life around it and you have to kind of go the other

00:09:48.680 | direction.

00:09:49.160 | Yeah.

00:09:50.560 | And so, you know, you read all these research papers, you learned all this,

00:09:53.320 | ultimately you wrote a book.

00:09:54.600 | What kind of was the desire to make that move in your life?

00:09:59.120 | Well, before that, I was running a website called Summer Tomatoes, basically

00:10:04.160 | my blog, and I was writing articles and I just really wanted to put everything

00:10:08.640 | that I'd learned together over a decade of doing this work.

00:10:12.240 | And what I really wanted to convey with Foodist, my book, was if you are a

00:10:19.080 | dieter and this is something you've struggled with for your entire life,

00:10:22.640 | this is a way you can go from that to being what I call a foodist, which is

00:10:28.520 | somebody who uses food to make their lives better and happier and healthier,

00:10:35.240 | which is sort of the opposite of a dieter.

00:10:37.280 | A dieter is like a food is their enemy, like you're constantly trying to prevent

00:10:42.920 | yourself from doing things.

00:10:43.880 | Like for me, food was the biggest source of anxiety and struggle in my life

00:10:47.120 | before I made this change.

00:10:48.200 | And now it's like my favorite thing in the world.

00:10:49.640 | You can ask anybody, you can ask you.

00:10:51.240 | I know I've been fortunate to eat meals with you and food around you is always

00:10:56.760 | wonderful.

00:10:57.480 | So I want to dig into this whole idea of being able to find a different way, have

00:11:02.360 | a different relationship with food that can be way more, I guess, enjoyable than

00:11:06.520 | restrictive.

00:11:07.240 | Is there a foundation for doing that?

00:11:09.080 | Yeah, there's a few.

00:11:11.240 | So, I mean, on the just practical level of what to eat, that's sort of the first

00:11:15.800 | step. And my piece of advice there is to get away from processed foods as much as

00:11:23.040 | possible and have most of your food be about real intact, whole foods that you

00:11:28.080 | would find like in a garden or in the produce section of the grocery store or

00:11:31.960 | in the butcher section of the grocery store.

00:11:33.440 | Real food ingredients, basic ingredients versus packaged things.

00:11:37.160 | That's step one.

00:11:39.080 | And obviously, like we all have moments where we're out and we need to like do

00:11:42.640 | convenience things or it's a holiday or you're at the movies with your kids for

00:11:46.080 | the first time in two years and you want to just have some stupid M&M's like

00:11:49.160 | that's fine.

00:11:49.680 | But I'm just talking like the bulk of your day, your breakfast, lunch, dinner,

00:11:53.480 | five days a week type of thing should be focused on real food.

00:11:56.920 | And then there is a whole psychology around interacting with that real food

00:12:03.120 | and making yourself want it more than you want the processed stuff.

00:12:08.400 | And there's an art and a science to that as well.

00:12:11.000 | Yeah, I mean, let's start with so is it it's just packaged foods, but are there

00:12:15.760 | other things about this kind of real food concept to dig into about what they

00:12:20.600 | are, how to pick them, things that are important?

00:12:22.640 | But generally, you want to just start with raw ingredients.

00:12:26.520 | And I it takes it's a skill to be able to cook, right?

00:12:31.200 | And that's intimidating for a lot of people.

00:12:33.160 | But real ingredients are kind of pretty good.

00:12:36.880 | Like you just take some broccoli, as long as it's like a decent kind of

00:12:39.840 | broccoli, like you found it somewhere and doesn't smell like mildew or

00:12:42.360 | something, which sadly, a lot of broccoli at grocery stores does smell like

00:12:45.600 | mildew. But if you find a decent piece of broccoli and you heat it up in a pan

00:12:50.120 | with some olive oil and some salt and some garlic, it's gonna taste pretty

00:12:53.440 | good if you just kind of don't make a lot of errors.

00:12:57.160 | So I would generally recommend people start their eat more vegetables.

00:13:02.040 | I think one of the biggest mistakes people make is when they're trying to get

00:13:04.640 | healthy, they think they need to eat less of things.

00:13:06.520 | I encourage people don't start there.

00:13:08.280 | Start with adding adding these foods to whatever else you're doing until it

00:13:13.280 | becomes more natural.

00:13:14.160 | Then you can add more or then you can start thinking about what to remove.

00:13:17.280 | But start by adding most people just don't even know how to eat vegetables

00:13:19.920 | or have like never they're like they've lost this practice.

00:13:23.120 | And so it's something that people need to learn.

00:13:25.120 | And what do you say to those people?

00:13:26.360 | I've certainly I remember one time we had a tenant in our house and we were

00:13:29.840 | like, you know what, we should get to know Scott, let's go out to dinner.

00:13:31.720 | And he was like, Yeah, I don't eat vegetables.

00:13:33.160 | I was like, what?

00:13:33.920 | You don't eat any vegetables.

00:13:35.280 | And and I feel like I had nothing to say other than like, just pure shock.

00:13:40.320 | But I feel like if you were at that table, and you met this person who's

00:13:42.640 | like, yeah, I just I've never eaten vegetables.

00:13:44.440 | I never liked them.

00:13:45.160 | What would you tell that person to kind of open their eyes up to what

00:13:48.560 | vegetables could be?

00:13:49.480 | Well, that's a fantastic question.

00:13:52.840 | I've done this with with more people than I can count.

00:13:55.920 | You the main thing I want to do is feed them because my deep held belief is

00:14:01.720 | that people don't like vegetables because they haven't had good ones.

00:14:05.280 | Or the texture or something is just so outside of the realm of experience

00:14:10.040 | that it feels weird.

00:14:12.040 | And I and I 100% believe that you you can learn to like foods you don't

00:14:18.360 | like I grew up a typical California kid.

00:14:21.680 | I you know, I ate some vegetables, but I didn't like wouldn't say I loved

00:14:25.680 | vegetables.

00:14:26.040 | I definitely hated spinach, Brussels sprouts, lima beans, all sorts of

00:14:31.720 | things.

00:14:31.920 | I just had this cilantro.

00:14:33.240 | I just eggplants.

00:14:34.360 | I hated them.

00:14:35.080 | I hated them beats.

00:14:36.280 | And when I changed my approach to food, I started shopping at different

00:14:41.320 | places.

00:14:41.640 | So I really realized that I really like the food at the farmer's market

00:14:44.520 | because it's in season, it's cheaper, and it tastes better.

00:14:47.160 | And because it's grown by people who really care about these giant

00:14:50.080 | industrial farms.

00:14:51.160 | And one of the things that was most profound to me was that when you buy

00:14:55.680 | food in season, when you buy food that somebody cares about, it tastes

00:14:59.800 | different.

00:15:00.600 | You don't really know what that tastes like if you've never had it before,

00:15:03.280 | and you need to try again.

00:15:04.240 | And it didn't always work the first time.

00:15:05.920 | Sometimes I'd try cucumbers and I'm like, No, these are still not good.

00:15:09.240 | But eventually, I figured out a way to like everything I can honestly say

00:15:13.640 | that I like all vegetables right now are all foods in general.

00:15:16.600 | I mean, I'll and I'll definitely try or eat anything.

00:15:18.680 | I would never just like categorically say I don't like something because I

00:15:22.880 | know that's just that's just my perception of it.

00:15:25.560 | I can say I have never enjoyed this, but I'm open to the fact that it's

00:15:28.880 | possible.

00:15:30.080 | Yeah. And one thing that you said that I thought was interesting was go to

00:15:33.480 | the farmer's market seven season that makes sense.

00:15:35.440 | And you said it's also cheaper.

00:15:36.720 | And there's a theme to this show about saving.

00:15:39.760 | And I think there's a perception and I would say I even have it sometimes that

00:15:43.600 | going to the farmer's market is like so boutique II all these little shops like

00:15:47.160 | is it going to be really expensive?

00:15:48.800 | Is that not the case?

00:15:50.640 | Yeah, actually.

00:15:51.760 | And so there's a big exception.

00:15:54.080 | And that exception is fruit.

00:15:56.240 | Fruit at the farmer's market is really expensive.

00:15:58.720 | But most people, since they're kind of vegetable rookies, they go there and

00:16:02.760 | they mainly see the fruit and they'll see these like four dollar a pound

00:16:07.720 | peaches. And yeah, that's expensive.

00:16:09.160 | But you buy one of those peaches and you eat one of those peaches and you're

00:16:12.360 | like, holy shit, this is the best peach I've ever had in my life.

00:16:15.120 | I can see why this is four dollars a pound.

00:16:17.240 | But right next door, there's the kale and you can get two bunches for a

00:16:21.120 | dollar. That'll feed a lot of people for like one or two meals.

00:16:26.720 | And and so my experience is the vegetables are actually quite comparable

00:16:32.320 | in terms of price. Ripe fruit is very delicate and heavy and it's a lot

00:16:37.480 | harder to ship. That's why the stuff at the grocery store isn't good.

00:16:40.160 | It's bred to be hard and firm and like withstand a lot of travel and being

00:16:44.680 | banged up. And it's just it's different.

00:16:47.200 | So, yes, if you go there and all you want to buy is fruit, you're going to be

00:16:49.560 | like, whoa, this is expensive.

00:16:51.040 | But for the most part, I think if you go to the farmer's market knowing I

00:16:54.840 | should be shopping for vegetables, you'll find incredibly good deals.

00:16:58.040 | And when I was a grad student in SF, I was like literally living in SF on

00:17:02.600 | less than thirty thousand dollars a year.

00:17:04.920 | And I would I shopped there exclusively.

00:17:09.640 | I mean, I didn't eat a lot of meat.

00:17:10.800 | That's another thing that's expensive.

00:17:12.040 | But I got great food, really great food.

00:17:15.960 | Yeah. And so, OK, so in season, organic food in season, cheaper.

00:17:21.440 | Great. When you said knowing how to cook it, are there are there tips on how to

00:17:25.280 | cook these fresh foods that make it easier for someone who maybe isn't used to

00:17:29.600 | cooking from scratch?

00:17:30.680 | Yeah. So there's a ton of little tricks I taught myself really to cook.

00:17:36.480 | And that makes it really fun because you do you learn these little tricks that.

00:17:41.600 | You're like, oh, if I would have just known this before, I would have liked

00:17:45.360 | stuff so much sooner.

00:17:46.520 | So like one example, like a mistake that I see people often use, they'll put

00:17:51.360 | food in a pan before it's hot and like that's just like you don't want to do

00:17:55.480 | that. You want to heat the pan first, then put oil in it and then put the food.

00:17:59.240 | So when it sizzles, when it gets there, so you can get that crisp in there.

00:18:02.280 | Also, people often put way too much in the pan and it gets overcrowded.

00:18:06.120 | So instead of browning and making something crispy and yummy, it'll steam it

00:18:10.160 | and make it soggy. And that'll really like kill the texture and sometimes even

00:18:14.480 | kill some of the flavor because it'll get overcooked but never really brown.

00:18:17.600 | And that's no good.

00:18:19.760 | It sounds like you could fix that with just a bigger pan.

00:18:21.800 | Yeah, a bigger pan or cooking in batches.

00:18:23.960 | Yeah, exactly. People often don't use enough salt, which is so ironic because

00:18:30.480 | people think salt is bad for you.

00:18:31.600 | But if you're cooking at home, it's you're using literally like seventy five

00:18:36.440 | percent less salt.

00:18:37.520 | Even if you like go to town salting your food, it's like really hard to oversalt

00:18:41.640 | your own food. So if something doesn't quite taste right, try a little more salt

00:18:46.240 | sometimes. I mean, and don't and don't do the whole batch, like take one little

00:18:48.960 | piece off and test it if you're and taste it.

00:18:51.920 | And if you're if it tastes better than you're on the right track.

00:18:54.280 | Honestly, I really recommend Samin Nosrat's book, Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat.

00:18:58.480 | I think for like a priming and cooking skills, you can't beat that book because

00:19:02.760 | sometimes you just need a little bit of acid.

00:19:04.400 | You know, sometimes you just need a little fat in there to fix it.

00:19:07.320 | And that can really take food that you are not very excited about and make it

00:19:10.720 | amazing. And you're like, wow, I didn't even think I had this in me.

00:19:12.840 | I never wanted to be a cook, but now I can cook.

00:19:14.800 | Yeah. And it's surprising.

00:19:16.680 | I mean, I know I've learned this both from you and others that a plate of fresh

00:19:20.960 | vegetables from the farmer's market just easily cooked in without much work can be

00:19:25.760 | delicious. Like we often go to the farmer's market, make some rice, make some

00:19:30.560 | fresh veggies, mix them together.

00:19:32.360 | Salt. There's not a lot of ingredients.

00:19:34.160 | It's not that hard. And it's fantastic.

00:19:35.960 | And so I was blown away.

00:19:37.920 | Two dollars.

00:19:38.760 | Rice is not an expensive thing, but rice is a carb.

00:19:43.200 | Is that OK? Do you feel like carbs are like fresh rice?

00:19:46.480 | It's good quality rice.

00:19:47.880 | Absolutely. So I'm OK.

00:19:51.000 | So one of the most important things you can do psychologically is never call any

00:19:55.040 | food good or bad. OK, every food has value in some way.

00:19:59.480 | Some foods, even a Twinkie.

00:20:02.120 | Yes, in the right setting, the Twinkie has value because maybe it has nostalgia or

00:20:08.360 | maybe it's a special moment.

00:20:09.600 | I don't I don't know what you're I mean, I don't think you should eat Twinkies for

00:20:12.320 | breakfast every day, but I don't even like Twinkies.

00:20:15.360 | I just think of them as like the quintessential worst food.

00:20:18.160 | I mean, in some ways, it's one of the least healthy things you can put in your

00:20:22.440 | body. My point is that that health isn't the only reason we eat.

00:20:25.440 | And again, there's like the psychology that goes on.

00:20:28.000 | If you tell yourself a food is forbidden, you are just setting up a whole dichotomy

00:20:34.000 | that will set you up for failure because all of a sudden it becomes a reward.

00:20:36.920 | Right. If you tell yourself something's forbidden, suddenly you can earn it if

00:20:41.400 | you're good enough. Right.

00:20:43.280 | And that can make you want it more.

00:20:44.680 | So it undermines.

00:20:46.240 | So I discourage anyone from thinking carbs or meat or fat is bad.

00:20:53.600 | Like that's not true.

00:20:55.200 | You can make a more healthful choice or you can make a choice for a different

00:20:58.720 | reason, like pleasure or something social or a bonding experience.

00:21:02.840 | There's a lot of good reasons to eat.

00:21:04.200 | Yes, I would love and encourage you to choose health a lot.

00:21:07.600 | And on average, you kind of like think about like the 80/20 principle, like get

00:21:11.440 | the base, your basic meals, right?

00:21:12.880 | Like the weekdays, they're always kind of the same.

00:21:16.360 | You're all going to work breakfast, lunch, dinner and weekdays, nail those.

00:21:19.400 | And then you can have some pancakes on the weekend and you're already, you're

00:21:23.520 | winning, you already won.

00:21:24.440 | It seems like with every business, you get to a certain size and the cracks start to

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00:22:52.880 | I wish I could say that I'm eating a fully balanced diet every day, but the reality is

00:22:59.000 | that I am definitely not.

00:23:00.320 | So I love having an easy way to get my daily nutritional insurance, which is why I

00:23:05.320 | kickstart my day with Athletic Greens, and I am excited to be partnering with them for

00:23:09.560 | this episode.

00:23:10.280 | I started taking it because I wanted to see what all the hype was about, and I've kept

00:23:14.640 | it in my daily routine for months.

00:23:16.720 | Every morning, I mix it up with some cold water, add a few ice cubes.

00:23:20.680 | It tastes so good when it's cold, and I head to my office feeling focused and

00:23:25.000 | energized for the day, which is a feeling I absolutely love.

00:23:28.520 | I also love that it's made from 75 high quality vitamins, minerals and superfoods

00:23:33.880 | and contains less than one gram of sugar.

00:23:36.160 | It also has no GMOs, nasty chemicals or artificial anything.

00:23:40.320 | To make giving it a try easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a free one year

00:23:45.160 | supply of immune supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first

00:23:50.320 | purchase.

00:23:50.920 | All you have to do is visit allthehacks.com/athleticgreens.

00:23:56.280 | Again, that's allthehacks.com/athleticgreens to take ownership over your health and

00:24:02.600 | pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance.

00:24:05.280 | And for people who are thinking about this as an alternative to a diet, maybe you've

00:24:10.000 | been a little unhealthy the last year and a half.

00:24:12.920 | A lot of us have just been at home, maybe not getting as much exercise, being as

00:24:17.000 | healthy and feel like, I know I do, like maybe I could lose a little weight.

00:24:20.760 | Is this an approach to that or is this just a new lifestyle?

00:24:24.840 | Or what would you say to someone who's like, I probably need to lose 10 or 15

00:24:28.840 | pounds right now?

00:24:29.560 | It's a really good question.

00:24:30.880 | So I would encourage you to just try to focus more on vegetables.

00:24:34.520 | I mean, it's funny, you can even eat a pretty rich salad, but if you're eating a

00:24:38.400 | salad, you're going to, I find no matter what, I like find myself losing weight if

00:24:43.440 | I just focus on eating more vegetables.

00:24:45.120 | But, you know, it's just one of those things.

00:24:46.720 | It's like, OK, if you've gained a little weight because of COVID or whatever, and

00:24:49.680 | you notice you've maybe been eating a little more ice cream or whatever, I would

00:24:53.960 | say don't, yes, like so an obvious thing you can do is eat less ice cream, right?

00:24:58.520 | Like that's an obvious thing or pizza or whatever your little indulgence is.

00:25:02.120 | But and I don't want you to say you can't have it, but just try to be more mindful

00:25:06.920 | of how often you're doing it.

00:25:07.880 | If you if it's come to the point where you're doing it two or three times a week,

00:25:10.920 | like cut down to one, like so it's not zero.

00:25:13.880 | And maybe it's even every other week.

00:25:15.480 | I don't know.

00:25:16.040 | Like and then watch your body and listen to your body.

00:25:18.280 | Like I there's no right answer here.

00:25:20.240 | And maybe for you, like you're like, no way in hell I'm giving up my ice cream.

00:25:23.200 | But like, I don't really need that toast.

00:25:25.520 | So you you pick what matters to you, and be mindful of both quality and quantity.

00:25:31.840 | And just kind of keep tabs on those things.

00:25:34.240 | I mean, if you're just if you just sit down at any meal and kind of eat whatever's in

00:25:38.360 | front of you, it's going to be really hard.

00:25:39.720 | But you do have to sort of think and plan like, how am I going to because you want to

00:25:43.160 | eat enough healthy food that you feel good to when you have energy and you're not

00:25:46.000 | tired.

00:25:46.400 | So you sort of have to think about your life and think about what you're doing and how

00:25:50.080 | much energy you need and what your weight goals are and what your health goals are

00:25:54.040 | and, and taper.

00:25:55.080 | I think the biggest one of the biggest things people do is they go they go like, all in

00:25:58.840 | on one thing crazy.

00:25:59.920 | And I just I don't think that's a recipe for long term success.

00:26:02.720 | Yeah, we've been very happy with meal planning and kind of mapping out.

00:26:07.400 | Okay, these are the things we're going to do this week.

00:26:09.480 | Let's buy the groceries that make this possible.

00:26:11.920 | And we end up not bringing home as many things that like, like, it's almost hard to

00:26:16.920 | fall into a bad situation if you don't have it in your house.

00:26:19.680 | And if you've made a plan, but if five o'clock rolls around, and you're like, Oh, my

00:26:23.640 | gosh, what is the plan for dinner?

00:26:24.880 | We haven't prepared anything.

00:26:26.400 | I feel like I would just fall into a panic mode where I might take out Thai food, of

00:26:30.960 | course.

00:26:31.480 | Yeah, of course.

00:26:33.160 | That's delicious.

00:26:33.880 | But yeah, what about when you're out and about and you're ordering carry out or at a

00:26:37.880 | restaurant? Is it just a disaster?

00:26:40.080 | Are there ways to make it better?

00:26:41.760 | Yeah, great question.

00:26:42.800 | So yeah, if I find myself at sort of a mid range restaurant where I think the food's

00:26:47.760 | going to be all right, like nothing that I is particularly special, but I need to get

00:26:53.000 | some food in my body, I will definitely be super careful to make sure I order a lot of

00:26:57.680 | vegetables. So even if it means ordering a little extra and spending an extra like six

00:27:01.240 | bucks on the appetizer, that's a lot of vegetables.

00:27:03.400 | I always do that. I make sure I eat it.

00:27:04.840 | And then I try to be mindful of what I'm ordering.

00:27:06.920 | I avoid words like glazed, crispy, because it's really easy to get tricked into eating

00:27:13.080 | like 2000 calories in one meal at a restaurant like that if you're not careful.

00:27:17.520 | And if it's not an amazing place that you're like, this is a once in a lifetime thing.

00:27:22.400 | I've been saving up for this for three months, you know, that's not really worth it to

00:27:28.000 | have something really bad for you.

00:27:29.960 | So I try to make meals like that as healthy as I can.

00:27:32.920 | My trick is I find that if I'm at a restaurant, I'm looking at the menu, I end up on

00:27:37.640 | like the thing that's probably glazed and crispy.

00:27:41.040 | But I'll look at the menu at home, like maybe right after I had breakfast and I'm not

00:27:45.520 | even hungry. And I'm like, you know what?

00:27:46.880 | When I go to this restaurant, I'm going to order this chicken salad.

00:27:50.280 | Right. And I'll decide what I want before I go.

00:27:53.280 | And it makes it so easy.

00:27:54.160 | I get there and I'm like, I don't even need to look at the menu.

00:27:55.960 | I know what I'm going to order.

00:27:57.080 | I don't need to get distracted.

00:27:58.360 | And I kind of plan that in advance.

00:28:00.080 | It sounds a little ridiculous.

00:28:01.760 | Maybe a couple of drinks in, I might change my mind if it's one of those dinners.

00:28:06.000 | But that's been really helpful for me.

00:28:07.920 | I think that's brilliant, actually.

00:28:09.840 | And the more you can plan in advance and make decisions before you get hungry, the more

00:28:13.800 | you're going to win. Because nobody who's hungry makes a good decision.

00:28:18.120 | And I assume that's also true at the grocery store.

00:28:20.280 | Absolutely. Like you said, as long as you can keep the bad stuff out of your house, you're

00:28:25.400 | way, way, way, way less likely to eat it.

00:28:27.320 | And look at me. I just said bad.

00:28:28.560 | It's really hard to strain yourself out of the same.

00:28:31.720 | But yeah, keep things in your house that are healthy and that you want to say that you

00:28:35.480 | ate and it'll be a lot easier.

00:28:37.480 | Yeah. The last time I hung out with you in person, I noticed that after dinner you had

00:28:41.680 | this really great dark chocolate.

00:28:44.560 | And it had me thinking, gosh, sometimes after dinner, I just want something sweet to

00:28:49.520 | finish the meal.

00:28:50.520 | And I was like, man, if I just had that, that would that would substitute any other

00:28:55.800 | thing. But instead, our au pair loves Oreos.

00:28:59.280 | And I was like, instead, I have no dark chocolate.

00:29:01.960 | I just have a box of Oreos and both would have been fine.

00:29:04.760 | But I only had one of them.

00:29:06.280 | And so I made the wrong decision or I made the only decision.

00:29:10.800 | But it sounds like you analyzed it and you figured out why.

00:29:13.280 | So you have the opportunity next time to make the right decision.

00:29:15.880 | Yeah. Yeah. Are there other things for people who have that sweet tooth, which I would

00:29:21.080 | say I fall into a trap of less self-control around a batch of freshly baked cookies

00:29:26.640 | or walking by or in a donut store?

00:29:29.320 | Like what are ways to either kind of get over that desire or sweet tooth?

00:29:34.880 | Let's start there. And then I'm also curious if there are things that kind of fill that

00:29:39.480 | void that are better choices.

00:29:42.160 | Yeah. So what one thing that I found to be very true is the less you eat it, the more

00:29:47.960 | you crave it. So I used to consider myself a sweet tooth and I always had to have

00:29:53.200 | something up to do, especially if I had a lot of garlic, for some reason, five garlic

00:29:56.160 | breath. Even if I brush my teeth, I kind of just like want some sugar.

00:29:58.400 | But that has just faded and faded and faded over time.

00:30:01.840 | And it's a lot less desirable to me now, which is fantastic.

00:30:04.720 | So that's one thing to consider.

00:30:06.680 | The other thing is that there's dark chocolate is fantastic.

00:30:10.040 | I like sometimes it's it's kind of calorie rich, but it's not I wouldn't say it's bad

00:30:13.680 | for you. But I like dark chocolate with a scoop of peanut butter on it.

00:30:15.880 | And that's good. But I'm also I have like so I'm a weirdo.

00:30:18.960 | Like I said, I don't like that much sugar these days, but I do.

00:30:23.320 | One of my biggest indulgences that I'm a little bit embarrassed about is I pay a sort

00:30:28.120 | of ridiculous amount of money to get fruit shipped from California to my house in

00:30:32.320 | Oregon because it's so good.

00:30:35.080 | It is just so freaking good.

00:30:36.320 | These these Pluots, they're called Flavor King Pluots and these peaches from Frog Hollow

00:30:42.680 | Farm. I buy them and get so excited to eat one after dinner because they're so delicious

00:30:49.040 | and they smell so good and they're just like worth every penny.

00:30:50.960 | They're so good. Yeah, one time my my parents used to live on the East Coast and they

00:30:55.240 | came out to visit and we went to a farmer's market in Oakland and my mom's like, what

00:31:00.200 | is a Pluot? Like a Pluot, I would say, at least growing up, I'd never heard of a

00:31:04.680 | Pluot. And up until that farmer's market, I hadn't even ever heard of one either.

00:31:08.840 | And we tried it. We're like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing.

00:31:11.120 | Obviously, me living in California, my sister living in California, we're really big

00:31:14.640 | drivers. But I think 20 percent of her desire to move to California was the fresh fruit

00:31:19.600 | and like Pluot specifically.

00:31:21.240 | So I think I think you would you would enjoy time together enjoying fresh fruit here.

00:31:26.840 | You talked about the group of people that actually were able to to keep weight down

00:31:31.800 | and naturally and they had a lot of habits.

00:31:34.040 | Are there habits that you think people can adopt to start to make this easier, both

00:31:40.160 | eating healthy and just kind of living a more intentional lifestyle?

00:31:43.400 | There's a good question. So there's two big pieces.

00:31:47.560 | One is around movement and one is around food.

00:31:50.240 | Right. So with movement.

00:31:52.520 | I there's this thing of formal exercise is fantastic, like if you enjoy it, that's

00:31:59.160 | great. And I do think people should do it.

00:32:01.480 | I think that no matter what your health status, everybody should do a little bit of

00:32:05.160 | cardio a few times a week and do some strength training just for aging.

00:32:09.240 | I mean, you're just not going to get a better bang for your buck for staying alive and

00:32:13.920 | and mobile into into old age.

00:32:16.200 | And and it is like an amazing it like it helps you sleep.

00:32:19.600 | Amazing sort of source of endorphins.

00:32:21.240 | But. The amount of energy that you can use just doing normal daily life stuff, people

00:32:29.240 | massively underrate that.

00:32:30.760 | So people tend to have habits of like taking the elevator, sitting on a bench when

00:32:34.840 | waiting for something like I would just encourage people to start looking at those as

00:32:38.120 | opportunities to move and be active.

00:32:40.080 | And so I almost never sit if I'm waiting at a doctor's office, like I'm the one

00:32:44.600 | standing. Well, it's much easier now with covid because I'm like, oh, I'm going to get

00:32:49.040 | a disease if I sit there. So I'm not going to touch anything.

00:32:51.200 | But maybe we all have a little bit more of these habits now.

00:32:53.760 | But just just try to be thoughtful about just try to be active and get your kids

00:32:57.520 | involved to get whatever like well, it's like recruitment.

00:32:59.520 | People actually like moving.

00:33:00.520 | People forget that they're moving.

00:33:02.080 | Actually, it feels really good before you go to the next one.

00:33:04.120 | With regard to covid, I feel like video meetings have taken over and now there's

00:33:08.960 | constantly meetings that could be phone calls, probably were phone calls in 2019.

00:33:12.800 | And now they're all video meetings.

00:33:14.480 | And as much as I enjoy getting to connect with people's faces on a screen, I feel like

00:33:19.880 | I've lost a lot of the ability to take a walking call or a walking in-person meeting.

00:33:24.800 | And so I've been pushing back.

00:33:26.680 | Someone's like, oh, here's the video call.

00:33:28.240 | And I'm like, actually, let's do this as a phone call and go on a walk.

00:33:32.320 | And it's been hard during covid because everyone wants to meet on Zoom or Skype or

00:33:37.360 | something. And so I'd say if you don't feel like you get enough time to do that

00:33:40.560 | anymore, just push back, say, hey, we don't need to do this on a video call.

00:33:44.360 | Let's do a phone call or just most of these have ability to dial in.

00:33:47.640 | I'll just dial in and say, hey, you don't need to turn your video on.

00:33:50.640 | I'm just here on the phone.

00:33:51.600 | Totally. Yeah, Kevin's been doing that, too.

00:33:53.760 | My husband is smart.

00:33:55.280 | So movement and and so on the food front, like I said, the first thing I recommend to

00:34:00.000 | people is eat more, eat more vegetables.

00:34:02.080 | Like it's so much easier than a don't don't don't don't.

00:34:05.040 | I mean, if you don't know how to cook, it's one of the the number one skills you can

00:34:10.720 | develop in life. And I would say start small and pick pick a meal.

00:34:15.760 | Maybe breakfast is easy.

00:34:16.960 | Maybe start with breakfast or figure out ways to cook.

00:34:19.440 | I say having a schedule around the grocery store is really important to like working

00:34:24.280 | that into figuring out when that's going to happen, what it's going to look like.

00:34:27.800 | I'll rearrange my whole week to make sure that the produce I get is good because like

00:34:32.800 | I was saying earlier, I want to love what I eat.

00:34:35.840 | And even if it's just my Tuesday night dinner.

00:34:38.280 | And so I will go out of my way to make sure that the salad mix I get is delightful or

00:34:44.400 | that the the carrots I'm going to cook for my kids are sweet and tasty.

00:34:48.080 | So they actually want to eat them.

00:34:49.320 | So it's not something that we have to fight over.

00:34:50.800 | It's something they love.

00:34:52.120 | And so for me, I spend a little extra time, energy and money on finding the best foods

00:34:59.720 | and make sure that like that's not a negotiable on my day.

00:35:03.360 | Like everybody knows like I can't take meetings on Tuesdays in the afternoon because I am

00:35:08.520 | grocery shopping. So there's just things like that are really helpful.

00:35:12.800 | And I'd say finally, when you are thinking about removing things like again, try not to

00:35:18.000 | build into that your self-talk, anything about moralizing food as good or bad and try to

00:35:24.440 | acknowledge what your body wants when it wants something a little sweet or wants to have

00:35:31.560 | some of your like mom's famous chocolate chip cookies or whatever.

00:35:35.000 | Like those things have value.

00:35:36.480 | Don't feel bad about it.

00:35:37.600 | Just kind of be more aware and know that you can't do that every day, but that you're not

00:35:41.480 | like bad for doing it or that it's OK to like it.

00:35:44.040 | It's OK to love cookies.

00:35:46.280 | Yeah, I am. I am OK that I love cookies.

00:35:49.160 | And one thing you mentioned about learning to cook, I was doing some research before

00:35:54.960 | this. Am I right that you have a course for learning to cook?

00:36:00.040 | I do. So this is something that comes up a lot and it's hard to cook.

00:36:04.680 | And I the reason I think it's hard to cook is because cooking isn't one skill.

00:36:09.720 | It's a set of like eight skills.

00:36:11.400 | There's knife skills.

00:36:12.400 | There's flavor pairing skills.

00:36:14.000 | There's heat learning skills.

00:36:16.520 | And I taught myself and I know it wasn't that hard.

00:36:20.600 | And I had so many people telling me it was too hard and like it's not that hard.

00:36:23.440 | And so I just put this program together.

00:36:25.120 | It's a 30 day program to teach people to cook without recipes, because when I started

00:36:30.080 | interviewing people about why they don't cook, they would just give me these stories

00:36:34.520 | about how they go to the grocery store with a list trying to make all these recipes.

00:36:38.800 | They get home. But, you know, they only used half an onion and like two carrots out of

00:36:42.600 | the entire bunch. And they make the food.

00:36:44.520 | And because they don't really know how to cook, maybe they didn't quite season it

00:36:47.040 | right. Or maybe they cut the carrot chunks too big.

00:36:49.600 | And so it didn't quite turn out as well as they want.

00:36:51.720 | So they have all this food because they made a batch for like six people.

00:36:55.000 | It's not that good. Nobody wants to eat it.

00:36:57.000 | There's a bunch of leftovers in the fridge that go bad.

00:36:59.040 | Then the rest of their groceries that they didn't use in the recipes go bad.

00:37:02.000 | And they're like miserable. They're like, why did I do this?

00:37:03.920 | I spent all this time, all this money.

00:37:05.200 | It didn't turn out good. And it's a waste.

00:37:08.320 | And they just end up getting pizza anyway.

00:37:10.680 | So I realized after talking to the people who do cook and the people who don't cook

00:37:14.520 | is the biggest difference was how much they rely on recipes as like a day to day

00:37:18.080 | cooking thing. It's like, yeah, almost everybody will use a recipe for a bigger,

00:37:22.520 | more elaborate meal.

00:37:24.200 | But people who cook a lot can throw stuff together with whatever's in their fridge.

00:37:28.240 | And I wanted to teach people that skill because that's how I cook.

00:37:30.680 | And I just that's the first thing I do if I'm like, what's for dinner?

00:37:32.760 | And I don't know. I look in my fridge and see what's there.

00:37:34.880 | It's like and I like I can start being the conductor of the orchestra of how this is

00:37:38.480 | all going to come together in my belly later.

00:37:40.640 | Yeah. And so is that do you think that's something easy to learn?

00:37:43.600 | It sounds hard. I think you can learn it in 30 days.

00:37:46.800 | OK, it's called Foodist Kitchen, by the way.

00:37:49.200 | OK, awesome. Foodistkitchen.com.

00:37:51.440 | Yeah. What do you think about habits that people feel like are kind of ingrained

00:37:57.560 | from childhood? So one thing that I feel like I regret and maybe I'm

00:38:02.720 | overemphasizing it is that I grew up in a clean plate club household and I feel like

00:38:08.440 | it's been really hard, if not, you know, almost impossible to break the habit of

00:38:12.840 | always eat everything that's in front of you.

00:38:15.000 | I assume that's a pretty bad habit.

00:38:17.560 | Any any reactions or thoughts on on people who kind of grew up in that household and

00:38:22.960 | have that kind of ingrained in their style of eating?

00:38:25.520 | Well, I will 100 percent say that habits that you develop like under the age of 10

00:38:30.320 | are really, really hard to break because they're they're pretty ingrained in who you

00:38:35.040 | are and your identity. So I don't blame you for that being challenging.

00:38:39.560 | I would say, I mean, there's a couple of ways you can solve this, right?

00:38:42.760 | One is get smaller plates.

00:38:44.920 | Another one is you could start a mindful eating practice.

00:38:53.480 | So when you're eating to finish your plate, you're on autopilot, right?

00:38:57.640 | You're telling me that the cue to stop eating is that your plate's empty.

00:39:01.840 | So that just means you're not you're not focused on other goals.

00:39:05.640 | One thing you can do is you can train yourself to really focus on the food in your

00:39:10.800 | mouth and the bite you're taking.

00:39:11.920 | And I mean, the way I do this is I practice.

00:39:15.520 | It was so, so hard.

00:39:16.840 | This is the single hardest food habit I developed, but I knew I needed it because I

00:39:22.000 | would eat really fast. I grew up with two brothers, so we didn't it wasn't like

00:39:25.120 | necessarily a clean plate thing, but it was just like we all just like ate like

00:39:28.600 | maniacs and like it's amazing we didn't choke or something.

00:39:31.840 | But so and my husband eats really fast and I'm like triggered by his eating fast.

00:39:37.200 | I have to like be like, dude, slow down.

00:39:38.800 | You're like making me nervous.

00:39:40.040 | But now I have learned to do this slowly.

00:39:44.680 | And the way I did it was I. Trained myself with one meal a day and I would just go

00:39:50.880 | through and just like do one meal when I was basically eating with my eyes closed,

00:39:55.240 | not entirely closed, but when the food's in my mouth, my eyes closed, no devices, no

00:39:58.800 | computers, no sounds and just focus on my food.

00:40:01.360 | And once you develop that skill, then it it gets easier to transfer it to something

00:40:05.720 | like a dinner out with friends.

00:40:07.320 | You just start naturally stopping eating when you're full, but it's a lot of

00:40:11.560 | practice. It's hard work.

00:40:12.920 | So I am quite comfortable right now, which is actually true almost every day, and

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00:43:31.340 | So the premise is kind of really focus on the food, get to understand it.

00:43:36.400 | Is it that it will slow you down and that will make you realize you're full or how does

00:43:40.320 | that work in your brain?

00:43:41.640 | Both.

00:43:42.640 | I mean, one of the biggest things you'd be surprised to hear, people don't chew.

00:43:47.680 | So when you're a fast eater and you're getting to the bottom of your plate, my guess is you're

00:43:52.760 | chewing food probably like 20% as much as you should.

00:43:56.000 | So that 100%, you will not feel as full as quickly.

00:44:00.400 | And you will also probably get more stomach aches if you chew more.

00:44:04.400 | And basically, it takes you out of the autopilot so you can actually start making decisions

00:44:08.560 | about what you want to eat and when you want to stop that's conscious instead of unconscious.

00:44:14.040 | I have a course for that too, by the way.

00:44:18.040 | A course on learning to mindful eat?

00:44:20.400 | Mindful eating.

00:44:21.400 | Yeah, it's free.

00:44:22.400 | It's called Mindful Meal Challenge.

00:44:23.400 | And it's a five-day free program that takes you through how to tackle that one meal.

00:44:30.040 | And there's like sort of five different things you can try.

00:44:32.560 | And I love that.

00:44:33.760 | I love that program.

00:44:34.760 | And I'm very proud of that one.

00:44:36.480 | So I'm coming back to some of the kind of habits and ways to get going.

00:44:42.880 | And I know you've talked in the past and thought a lot about habits, habit creation, rewards.

00:44:48.360 | Are there things that someone who's trying to really incorporate more vegetables, trying

00:44:52.920 | to eat more real foods and kind of be more intentional about what they're eating, are

00:44:57.080 | there ways to make that easier to become a habit and part of your new lifestyle?

00:45:02.040 | Well, I mean, the easiest thing to do is work with your brain instead of against it.

00:45:08.040 | So we kind of touched on this a little bit earlier when we were talking about moralizing

00:45:12.000 | food choices.

00:45:13.480 | But when it comes to motivation, especially for things like health, where it's just day

00:45:18.680 | to day for the rest of your life, it's not like if you have to just study for a final

00:45:22.680 | or something or like prep for a podcast, you use willpower, you force yourself to work,

00:45:26.720 | you hit your goal and you're done.

00:45:28.200 | But this is a very different type of activity.

00:45:31.560 | And the most important thing for activities like that in habits that you want to build

00:45:35.960 | is that your motivation needs to be intrinsic.

00:45:38.120 | So you need to truly enjoy what you're doing for the sake of itself.

00:45:43.020 | So I absolutely encourage people not to think of rewards as being outside the food.

00:45:47.920 | Like if I cook myself dinner, then I can eat dessert.

00:45:50.960 | That's an extrinsic motivation, and it can actually undermine your intrinsic motivation.

00:45:56.080 | There's a lot of science here, but just try to believe me on this one, that when you tell

00:46:00.600 | yourself you have to do things for a prize, it makes the thing you're doing less and less

00:46:04.640 | enjoyable for a lot of reasons.

00:46:07.240 | And so for food, that's why I'm constantly harping on seasonality, farmers markets, cooking

00:46:12.000 | for yourself.

00:46:13.000 | Because one of the things that happens when you can cook for yourself is you can actually

00:46:15.040 | make food that you like to eat.

00:46:16.800 | And that's huge.

00:46:18.120 | Because if you like to eat something more, like I like my food cooking more than the

00:46:21.840 | vast majority of restaurants in probably any city I've lived in.

00:46:25.820 | And that's amazing.

00:46:26.820 | I didn't start out as some amazing chef, but I know what I like to eat and now I'm pretty

00:46:32.680 | good at it.

00:46:33.960 | And I think that you really can't underestimate how much energy you need to spend making sure

00:46:38.960 | that that is what you dial that in on your habits.

00:46:42.320 | Because if you're trying to force yourself to do something, then it's not a habit.

00:46:45.480 | A habit is automatic, and the only way it becomes automatic is if it's reinforced with

00:46:50.540 | intrinsic reward.

00:46:53.000 | You mentioned, of course, you enjoy the food more than restaurants.

00:46:56.320 | And earlier, you started talking about how you're willing to spend a little bit more

00:46:59.120 | for food.

00:47:00.240 | But I just want to throw out there like, if you're spending a little bit more on ingredients,

00:47:04.320 | but making it at home, net net, it's probably still way less expensive than going way less

00:47:08.880 | expensive,

00:47:09.880 | way less expensive.

00:47:10.880 | I mean, this was like my probably my number one hack for grad school was learning to cook.

00:47:14.800 | Because I was so broke, and I'm such a food snob that like, it was like, literally, I

00:47:19.280 | had no other choice.

00:47:20.280 | I just I was like, I have to figure out how to cook.

00:47:23.400 | Otherwise, I'm gonna like eat myself into bankruptcy at these like fancy restaurants

00:47:27.120 | in San Francisco, because I just I discovered those restaurants and I couldn't afford to

00:47:30.640 | eat there.

00:47:31.640 | But I, I just I needed I needed good food.

00:47:33.880 | So yeah, I just got really good at cooking.

00:47:35.840 | You know, I know you said get past the recipes eventually.

00:47:38.600 | And that's good.

00:47:39.600 | And there's a course for it.

00:47:40.600 | But are there a few kind of like, easy, healthy meals, someone listening to this could say,

00:47:44.240 | you know what, give me something to make this week that I could try and I might really enjoy.

00:47:48.520 | Oh my god, I'm gonna give you the best recipe right now.

00:47:50.600 | I'm so excited for you.

00:47:52.080 | Okay, get ahead of cauliflower, fresh as possible, break it up, throw it in a bowl, dose it with

00:47:59.560 | a solid amount of olive oil and a solid amount of salt.

00:48:03.080 | Make the pieces as close to evenly sized as possible.

00:48:06.640 | Heat your oven to 500 or 475 if you have convection, go 475 and put the cauliflower in a baking

00:48:14.920 | sheet.

00:48:15.920 | Make sure it's Oh, you know what?

00:48:16.920 | I like to add curry powder too.

00:48:18.440 | You don't have to but there's some curry powder on there.

00:48:20.280 | It's really good on the cauliflower, get get it kind of orange, and then separate it out

00:48:25.160 | on a baking sheet.

00:48:26.160 | Make sure there's like enough space on the baking sheet so it's not crowded.

00:48:29.720 | And then foil over it.

00:48:31.760 | Stick it in the oven.

00:48:32.760 | Set your timer for 15 minutes.

00:48:34.960 | Take it out.

00:48:35.960 | What will happen is it'll steam a teeny bit inside there and it'll start to look a little

00:48:38.400 | bit translucent.

00:48:40.040 | Take the foil off.

00:48:41.840 | Sometimes I reduce the heat a little bit more like by 25 degrees, stir it up and stick it

00:48:45.760 | back in the oven set your timer for eight minutes this time.

00:48:48.720 | And then keep checking it and stirring it every eight minutes until it's brown and crispy.

00:48:53.240 | I mean, my kids, like, I could feed them that every meal for every day and they would eat

00:48:58.760 | it like they love it.

00:49:00.120 | Everybody loves it.

00:49:01.120 | It kind of tastes like cauliflower french fries.

00:49:02.640 | I don't know, it's by far my most popular recipe and everybody I've made it for absolutely

00:49:07.520 | loves it.

00:49:08.520 | So give that a try.

00:49:09.520 | Super easy, super healthy.

00:49:10.520 | And the one thing you'll realize is that you wish you bought more cauliflower, get a big

00:49:13.720 | one.

00:49:14.720 | Wow.

00:49:15.720 | Yeah.

00:49:16.720 | I'm going to get this recipe.

00:49:17.720 | We're going to type it up and put it in the show notes for anyone who wants to make it.

00:49:20.040 | I'll probably make it this weekend and I'm excited.

00:49:23.160 | It sounds wonderful.

00:49:24.160 | I can send you a link and there are tons of other recipes over at Summer Tomato is a huge

00:49:28.280 | recipe section.

00:49:29.280 | Yeah.

00:49:30.280 | I was going to tell you one more thing.

00:49:31.280 | You asked me about some hacks for cooking.

00:49:33.360 | One of the things that people mistake a lot.

00:49:35.640 | So with meat, if you're cooking meat, take it out of the fridge like an hour before you

00:49:40.280 | cook it.

00:49:41.280 | Like cooking cold meat is like a really fantastic way to make it tough.

00:49:45.360 | And if you can even better, it'd be salted the night before.

00:49:48.800 | And then like, that's like probably the number one hack for cooking chicken.

00:49:51.960 | Just like give it a good rub of salt, probably a little more salt than you think you need.

00:49:55.960 | Coat it all over.

00:49:56.960 | Let it sit overnight in the fridge, pull it out an hour before you want to cook it and

00:49:59.960 | then cook it.

00:50:00.960 | It'll your mind will be blown how much different it tastes.

00:50:04.000 | And is this true?

00:50:05.000 | All meats?

00:50:06.000 | Whether it's pretty much.

00:50:07.000 | Yeah.

00:50:08.000 | Okay.

00:50:09.000 | Yeah.

00:50:10.000 | I mean, maybe not fish, but that's amazing.

00:50:11.000 | So you've mentioned your, your kids a few times.

00:50:13.240 | How have you started to apply these lessons to your kids?

00:50:16.040 | And I think we probably both grew up at a time where what you eat as a kid is, is kind

00:50:20.720 | of very different hopefully than, than what the kids eat today.

00:50:23.440 | But do they love vegetables?

00:50:25.160 | Cause you know, most kids don't.

00:50:27.240 | Yeah.

00:50:28.240 | So this is the main thing I think about these days and yeah, my kids are amazing eaters.

00:50:34.480 | They have this tree stump down in the yard and they call it their fairy house and they're,

00:50:38.840 | they like go down there and they're like, we're going to cook for the fairies.

00:50:41.200 | We're going to make the fairies kale and lentils because they love kale and lentils.

00:50:46.120 | And Zelda, my oldest, she says the onions are her first favorite food and kale is her

00:50:50.040 | second favorite food.

00:50:51.840 | And cauliflower is definitely up there somewhere too.

00:50:54.040 | Yeah, no, they're fantastic eaters, but you know, it was not, not always.

00:50:58.760 | It's been, it's been a journey for sure.

00:51:01.280 | Any, any tricks for getting them to like these foods, especially for people whose kids right

00:51:06.120 | now kind of sneer at, at the idea of eating vegetables.

00:51:10.080 | Yeah.

00:51:11.080 | Yeah.

00:51:12.080 | So a few things, I mean, make sure it tastes good.

00:51:13.080 | I mean, one thing I find that parents will often just sort of steam vegetables in the

00:51:16.800 | microwave or something and like barely put any salt or oil.

00:51:19.760 | It's like, would you want to eat that?

00:51:21.400 | Like make food you'd want to eat.

00:51:23.280 | Add garlic, add salt.

00:51:24.280 | My kids love flavor.

00:51:25.280 | I don't, I don't know.

00:51:26.280 | There's some rumor that started that kids need to start with bland food.

00:51:30.240 | If you give your kids bland food, they're going to be used to and expect bland food.

00:51:33.400 | And then when you give them flavor, they're going to freak out and think it's weird.

00:51:36.600 | So I recommend starting with flavor as early as you can and cook things in different ways.

00:51:41.840 | If they reject something, which totally happens, or like most kids, I mean, they're good eaters

00:51:46.080 | until they're two and then they get, and they'll start rejecting things, you know, just be

00:51:50.120 | persistent.

00:51:51.480 | Kids need to try something sometimes up to 20 times before they'll truly accept it.

00:51:55.160 | So what I'll do is I'll cook things in different ways.

00:51:57.840 | I'll use different spices, I'll roast versus saute if they didn't like the saute last time.

00:52:02.880 | And then I just, I don't fight with them over it, but you know, I do expect them to take

00:52:05.720 | a few bites and they'll usually do that.

00:52:08.200 | It's not, it's never a battle.

00:52:09.420 | I mean, at one point Zelda would, her limited vegetables, her vegetables were limited to

00:52:14.760 | cauliflower and kale.

00:52:18.320 | And I mean, she would sometimes eat broccoli, but like not really, but she, she was pretty

00:52:21.760 | difficult.

00:52:22.760 | She wouldn't eat anything orange and she's, I mean, I'm not a hundred percent there with

00:52:25.960 | everything yet, but she now loves carrots, like loves broccoli, like everything.

00:52:31.080 | She just really, really loves it.

00:52:32.320 | And it just took persistence and just making sure that the food tastes good and having

00:52:35.420 | them keep trying.

00:52:36.420 | And sometimes I wait a few months and try again.

00:52:39.000 | Yeah.

00:52:40.000 | We, someone gave us that tip with toys.

00:52:41.600 | They were like, Oh, if there's a toy that someone's that your daughter's not interested

00:52:44.880 | in, just hide it for a couple months and bring it back.

00:52:47.940 | Like memory is not so well-formed yet that two months later, they probably think it's

00:52:52.200 | a brand new toy and they're excited to see it again.

00:52:54.400 | So toys, toy rotating is key for sure.

00:52:58.480 | Yeah.

00:52:59.480 | Okay.

00:53:00.480 | So a couple of quick hits I want to, I want to ask, what are your thoughts on skipping

00:53:04.560 | meals or, or intermittent fasting as, as part of the food lifestyle?

00:53:10.740 | Really good question.

00:53:11.740 | So my initial thought is a lot of the data that was done on intermittent fasting were

00:53:16.200 | pretty short fasts, like 13 to 14 hours, which is a pretty reasonable amount of time to go

00:53:21.320 | from dinner to breakfast.

00:53:22.880 | So in that realm, like I think you're fine.

00:53:26.000 | Like you don't really get hungry in 13, 14 hours and there's a lot of like potential

00:53:31.460 | benefits from that.

00:53:32.520 | So I think that's pretty reasonable.

00:53:34.320 | When you start getting into longer fasts, 16, 18, 24, multi-day fasts, it gets a little

00:53:39.600 | trickier.

00:53:40.600 | I would say that for certain populations, it's amazing.

00:53:44.080 | For instance, it's been shown to really, really help with cancer, like chemotherapy.

00:53:49.960 | As our friends, Mike Mazur had a really excellent result with his chemotherapy because he was

00:53:55.200 | doing a lot of fasting at the same time.

00:53:57.080 | And there's tons of science supporting this now.

00:53:59.600 | It's really awesome.

00:54:00.600 | So in certain populations, I think longer fasts can be extremely beneficial.

00:54:05.640 | But for most people, it can be a little risky, I'd say, for a couple of reasons.

00:54:10.880 | One, if you've been a chronic dieter at all, it can really lead to some binging behavior.

00:54:17.200 | And I would generally recommend anybody who has a history of dieting to avoid long fasting.

00:54:22.640 | I think there's better ways to get those same results.

00:54:26.280 | I would also say that you have to be really careful with fasting because a lot of the

00:54:30.480 | recent data that's coming out is showing that extended fasting can really, really reduce

00:54:34.840 | muscle mass dramatically.

00:54:37.040 | So if you are going to be fasting, it's really, really important that when you do eat, you

00:54:40.400 | eat a good amount of protein and you do a lot of strength training exercises.

00:54:43.960 | Otherwise, you can really mess up your metabolism and lose a lot of muscle mass.

00:54:48.360 | So those are some things to be cautious about in that realm.

00:54:52.200 | Otherwise, whatever works for you.

00:54:55.720 | And what about timing your eating?

00:54:58.920 | Is it important to follow a schedule or circadian rhythm?

00:55:02.480 | Or people always talk about how just grazing is a bad habit.

00:55:07.040 | Is that less important if you're grazing on good things?

00:55:10.240 | My goodness, I think you're the first non-scientist to ever ask me about circadian rhythms.

00:55:13.880 | That's amazing.

00:55:14.880 | I'm so proud of you.

00:55:16.760 | Yeah, no, circadian rhythms are really, really, really important.

00:55:20.200 | I think they're underestimated by most people.

00:55:23.320 | And the more you are on a schedule, the easier your life's going to be for a lot of things,

00:55:28.080 | especially kids.

00:55:29.080 | I mean, kids are so on that train.

00:55:33.480 | We're on a really tight schedule with the kids.

00:55:35.040 | But for myself personally, even, your body and your mind know what to expect, and they

00:55:40.760 | can regulate their hormones in a way to prepare you for that.

00:55:43.720 | And if you're eating all over the place, your body's going to be confused and it's going

00:55:47.360 | to be a lot harder.

00:55:48.360 | So yes, generally, if you can, I highly recommend sticking to a schedule.

00:55:51.600 | It's going to be super helpful.

00:55:53.760 | So just to wrap up, a couple last things.

00:55:56.600 | If someone were out there saying, "I want to get started," obviously, you said earlier,

00:56:00.720 | don't just jump all the way and maybe start with a meal.

00:56:02.760 | Any other tips for someone who's trying to transition from maybe a less healthy style?

00:56:07.920 | Yeah, I would say just start with one or two habits at a time.

00:56:13.080 | Don't go too crazy.

00:56:14.080 | I mean, when it was me, so basically what I did was, I mean, I was like dieting all

00:56:19.200 | the time.

00:56:20.200 | I was running marathons.

00:56:21.200 | I was doing all this stuff.

00:56:22.200 | I was working out for like two hours a day.

00:56:23.360 | I was just a crazy person.

00:56:25.280 | And I just, one day I was like, "I'm going to stop doing this.

00:56:27.920 | I'm going to stop being crazy and I'm going to start eating breakfast."

00:56:30.960 | And so I started with breakfast and I hadn't eaten carbs in like seven years or something,

00:56:36.360 | but I ate oatmeal and I just tried it.

00:56:39.480 | And crazy things happened just from this oatmeal.

00:56:41.760 | First of all, I expected to gain weight because I was eating carbs.

00:56:43.720 | I didn't.

00:56:45.400 | And two, I was like, that did amazing things to kill my sugar cravings because I think

00:56:51.320 | one of the big reasons my body wanted sugar so bad was because I wasn't giving it any

00:56:54.800 | at all.

00:56:55.800 | But when I would have just a little bit of carbs in the morning, my whole day was so

00:56:59.680 | much easier and so much better.

00:57:01.800 | And that's the sort of thing that you can see when you just change one habit at a time.

00:57:07.360 | And same thing with like adding vegetables or just like adding more vegetables to your

00:57:10.720 | dinner.

00:57:11.720 | Just start with dinner or lunch or something like that.

00:57:13.120 | And you can see when you make changes that way, you can see what is and what isn't working

00:57:17.080 | and you can adjust accordingly and then you can see your progress and you can see exactly

00:57:22.280 | what the building blocks you need to create your healthy lifestyle.

00:57:26.760 | All right.

00:57:28.440 | I hope everyone can put some of this to good use.

00:57:31.000 | One last thing.

00:57:32.000 | You mentioned sugar.

00:57:33.000 | I have this thing in my head and I think it's totally wrong, but I can't get over it.

00:57:37.280 | So maybe you can help.

00:57:39.880 | I've associated sugar with bad and I'm like, ah, sugar, which I know, nothing should be

00:57:44.680 | bad or good.

00:57:46.120 | And so somehow I've like translated sugar being bad to fruit has a lot of natural sugar

00:57:53.920 | and fruit falls in the dessert bucket.

00:57:55.920 | I mean, fruit is as magic.

00:57:58.440 | I love fruit so much.

00:57:59.800 | It's funny.

00:58:00.800 | I always am trying to like decide what my favorite fruit is.

00:58:02.720 | And I think I just do this to torture myself because it's always whatever's in season and

00:58:06.240 | is amazing right now.

00:58:07.640 | Like the melons right now are so good, like brings a tear to the eye and those pluots.

00:58:12.600 | But there's nothing wrong with fruit.

00:58:14.040 | Can you gain weight eating fruit?

00:58:15.360 | Totally.

00:58:16.360 | If you eat a ton of fruit, you could gain weight eating anything, right?

00:58:19.640 | You can lose weight eating anything.

00:58:21.620 | It's really just a matter of how much you're eating.

00:58:24.440 | And that sounds simple, but it's true on one level.

00:58:27.600 | The problem is if you aren't eating a lot of protein and you then you can feel more

00:58:32.600 | hungry and you will tend to eat more.

00:58:34.680 | And that's how people end up gaining weight is if they're eating more because they're

00:58:37.880 | not satisfied with what they are getting.

00:58:40.080 | But you know, there's plenty of room for fruit and in a healthy diet.

00:58:46.040 | It's a wonderful thing.

00:58:47.040 | And I find fruit is so ethereal, you know, it's like the really good stuff will be in

00:58:51.080 | season for like a few weeks at their peak.

00:58:53.520 | So the really good cherries, really good strawberries and like nothing on earth would tell me to

00:58:59.200 | ever tell somebody to like slow down on that.

00:59:01.320 | Go nuts.

00:59:02.320 | They're so good.

00:59:03.320 | Is there an easy way to figure out what's in season right now?

00:59:05.320 | I mean, the easiest way is to go to your local farmer's market.

00:59:09.480 | And they just only sell what's in season.

00:59:11.480 | Yeah.

00:59:12.480 | I mean, you know, it's funny, it's like people ask me this all the time and I just picked

00:59:17.360 | it up by going to the market.

00:59:18.880 | But if you want to think about it in broad terms, so in the spring, everything's coming

00:59:23.560 | up, right?

00:59:24.560 | Everything was dead and cold and everything's coming up.

00:59:26.440 | So you get buds, you get asparagus shooting out of the ground, you get fresh lettuces,

00:59:31.000 | you get green garlic, you get sort of the delicate early stuff.

00:59:35.500 | You don't start really seeing new fruit until strawberries come out kind of in the late

00:59:39.520 | spring, early summer, and then you start getting like a fruit bonanza.

00:59:44.320 | And then in the summer, like it progresses into more hearty vegetables, carrots, broccolis,

00:59:49.160 | cauliflowers, things like that.

00:59:50.920 | Later in the summer, you get stuff that like takes a lot more ripening.

00:59:53.320 | So you think about like harvests and what takes a long time, like a tomato takes longer

00:59:57.840 | to ripen, winter squash take longer to ripen, corn takes longer to ripen, apples, pears

01:00:03.200 | kind of even later in the summer, melons are early or late summer.

01:00:07.960 | And as you move into winter, you start to have to like have the more hearty foods that

01:00:13.580 | are going to survive the frost.

01:00:14.920 | You get pomegranates at the beginning, you get a lot of root vegetables, tubers, heartier

01:00:21.040 | kales, things like that.

01:00:22.840 | In the winter, we eat a lot of radicchio salads, a lot of bitter greens, and then that's why

01:00:27.560 | we're so happy when the sweet ones come out in the spring again.

01:00:29.800 | But yeah, I mean, there's certain things that are kind of good all year, like broccoli,

01:00:34.680 | cauliflower, kale.

01:00:35.680 | I mean, they're pretty good all year.

01:00:37.080 | You can always get onions, you can always get garlic, although they're usually grown

01:00:39.920 | in certain times of year and then stored.

01:00:41.960 | Winter squash in the winter, summer squash in the summer.

01:00:44.800 | Yeah, the squash camp makes it so easy.

01:00:47.160 | If they just named every vegetable or fruit when it's ripe, that would be wonderful.

01:00:51.840 | Wouldn't it?

01:00:52.840 | Awesome.

01:00:53.840 | Okay, now I'm hungry, which is probably the worst time to go figure out what to eat.

01:00:56.640 | But before we go, I want you to share a little bit about what you're working on now because

01:01:00.200 | I know you have a new podcast and tell people where to find everything.

01:01:03.600 | Yeah, thank you.

01:01:05.040 | I recently launched the Daria Rose Show, which is all about me.

01:01:11.920 | I really wanted to just tackle some of the harder problems I was seeing in the world.

01:01:19.000 | So I had a podcast called Foodist about all this stuff we're talking about right now.

01:01:23.640 | And it was awesome.

01:01:24.640 | But then I had a bunch of babies.

01:01:26.560 | And that kind of fell aside for two years, and then COVID hit, and the whole world turned

01:01:30.280 | upside down.

01:01:31.280 | And I just felt like I needed to take a step back and address more basic questions.

01:01:37.600 | So instead of just personal health, how do we know what's true anymore?

01:01:42.800 | I felt like I had to step back and define that before I could even really get started

01:01:46.720 | on episodes.

01:01:47.720 | So my first four or five episodes are all about figuring out how to know what's true

01:01:52.960 | in the media, in science, in health, in medicine.

01:01:57.680 | And I just interview some amazing people on that front.

01:02:00.160 | And then just other personal health questions that aren't specific to food.

01:02:03.840 | For instance, I have an episode about sunscreen and how to pick a sunscreen because that's

01:02:09.640 | surprisingly complicated and tricky.

01:02:12.640 | So just those questions that are kind of hard, kind of controversial, but that you need answers

01:02:17.560 | to to navigate your life.

01:02:19.400 | And I just take a very fact-based, science-based approach and do what I've always done in food

01:02:24.560 | and kind of apply it to these other questions.

01:02:27.320 | It's been really, really fun.

01:02:28.880 | It's been awesome to talk to smart people again and learn so much from others and share

01:02:32.960 | that with my audience who are so wonderful.

01:02:35.600 | Yeah, the show is fantastic.

01:02:37.160 | So definitely check it out.

01:02:38.360 | Anywhere else to find you online?

01:02:40.720 | Just summertomato.com for all the recipes, foodistkitchen.com for the cooking class,

01:02:44.920 | mindfulmealchallenge.com for the mindful eating course, and then dariaroachau.com is my podcast

01:02:50.840 | where I am right now, for the most part.

01:02:52.800 | Awesome.

01:02:53.800 | Well, thank you so much for being here.

01:02:55.480 | Thank you so much, Chris.

01:02:58.400 | That was amazing.

01:02:59.400 | I hope you really enjoyed the conversation.

01:03:01.360 | You'll find links to everything, including Daria's incredible cauliflower recipe in the

01:03:05.640 | show notes.

01:03:06.640 | If you're not already subscribed to All The Hacks, please go ahead and click subscribe.

01:03:10.880 | Or if you haven't left a rating review in your podcast app, it would mean so much if

01:03:14.480 | you could do that.

01:03:15.480 | Especially with the Plutus Awards coming up later this month, where we might be chosen

01:03:19.040 | for best new podcast.

01:03:20.400 | Finally, I'm about to do a bunch of outreach to line up the next 10 to 15 guests.

01:03:24.920 | So if there's someone you'd love me to have on the show, or there's a topic you'd like

01:03:28.480 | me to explore, please shoot me an email, chris@allthehacks.com, or you can find me on Twitter, I'm @hutchins.

01:03:35.800 | I read everything you guys send and love hearing from you, so thank you so much for reaching

01:03:39.760 | out.

01:03:40.760 | All right.

01:03:41.760 | That's it for now.

01:03:42.760 | I want to tell you about another podcast I love that goes deep on all things money.

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