ATHLLC2630296936

00:00:00.000 | A quick word from our sponsor today.

00:00:01.680 | I love helping you answer all the toughest questions about life, money, and so much

00:00:08.040 | more, but sometimes it's helpful to talk to other people in your situation, which

00:00:12.840 | actually gets harder as you build your wealth.

00:00:14.920 | So I want to introduce you to today's sponsor, LongAngle.

00:00:18.160 | LongAngle is a community of high net worth individuals with backgrounds in

00:00:22.200 | everything from technology, finance, medicine, to real estate, law,

00:00:26.040 | manufacturing, and more.

00:00:27.600 | I'm a member of LongAngle.

00:00:29.480 | I've loved being a part of the community, and I've even had one of the founders,

00:00:33.040 | Tad Fallows, join me on all the hacks in episode 87 to talk about alternative

00:00:37.200 | investments.

00:00:37.920 | Now, the majority of LongAngle members are first generation wealth, young, highly

00:00:42.640 | successful individuals who join the community to share knowledge and learn

00:00:46.400 | from each other in a confidential, unbiased setting.

00:00:49.600 | On top of that, members also get access to some unique private market investment

00:00:54.400 | opportunities.

00:00:55.200 | Like I said, I'm a member and I've gotten so much value from the community

00:00:59.120 | because you're getting advice and feedback from people in a similar

00:01:02.280 | situation to you on everything from your investment portfolio to your children's

00:01:06.680 | education, to finding a concierge doctor.

00:01:09.200 | So many of these conversations aren't happening anywhere else online.

00:01:13.120 | So if you have more than 2.2 million in investable assets, which is their

00:01:17.400 | minimum for membership, I encourage you to check out LongAngle and it's totally

00:01:21.960 | free to join.

00:01:22.760 | Just go to longangle.com to learn more.

00:01:26.120 | And if you choose to apply, be sure to let them know.

00:01:28.840 | You heard about it here.

00:01:29.960 | Again, that's longangle, A-N-G-L-E dot com.

00:01:34.640 | Hello and welcome to another episode of All The Hacks, a show about upgrading

00:01:42.680 | your life, money and travel all while spending less and saving more.

00:01:46.840 | I'm Chris Hutchins, and today I'm incredibly excited to be talking to the

00:01:50.800 | one and only Ramit Sethi, who's not only a friend of mine, but is also the

00:01:55.680 | author of I Will Teach You To Be Rich.

00:01:58.280 | A New York Times bestseller with over a million copies sold.

00:02:01.680 | In this episode, we'll talk about some of the tactical ways you can start

00:02:05.680 | living your own rich life.

00:02:07.000 | We'll talk about the 10 money rules Ramit created to ensure he's living his

00:02:11.640 | rich life, talk about some of the ways he's helped couples tackle money issues,

00:02:15.960 | and some of the invisible scripts that society has created to control our

00:02:20.280 | financial life and how to overcome them.

00:02:22.640 | So let's do it.

00:02:23.480 | Chris Hutchins works at Wealthfront.

00:02:25.800 | All opinions expressed by Chris and his guests are solely their own opinions and

00:02:29.520 | do not reflect the opinion of Wealthfront.

00:02:31.280 | This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied

00:02:35.080 | upon for investment decisions.

00:02:36.560 | Ramit, thanks for being here.

00:02:38.880 | Thanks for having me.

00:02:39.680 | Yeah, I am excited.

00:02:41.080 | I wanted to just kick off because your whole brand is I Will Teach You To Be

00:02:45.000 | Rich, and I thought it'd be helpful.

00:02:47.040 | There's a lot of ideas of what rich is.

00:02:49.320 | For me, my earliest vision is Scrooge McDuck running around in gold coins, but

00:02:53.880 | I know that's not what you talk to your audience about.

00:02:56.200 | What is being rich to you?

00:02:57.760 | Well, when I ask people that question, they give me back three answers.

00:03:02.160 | And the first answer is, "I want a million dollars."

00:03:06.440 | That's not very satisfying because a million dollars at 20 is different than a

00:03:11.040 | million at 60.

00:03:11.880 | A million in Kansas is different than a million in San Francisco.

00:03:16.120 | And so that's the first answer.

00:03:18.240 | The next one is, "I just want to pay off my debt."

00:03:22.680 | And this is kind of a haunting answer because it's almost like you're

00:03:26.200 | underwater and all you want to get is just barely above it.

00:03:30.520 | And if you've been in debt for a long time, you can understand that one, but I

00:03:34.240 | don't find it particularly inspiring.

00:03:35.640 | I think there's got to be more to life than just getting to zero.

00:03:38.360 | And then the third one is the most common, which is, "I want to do what I

00:03:42.640 | want, when I want."

00:03:44.240 | And I always say, "Okay, so what do you want?"

00:03:47.800 | And then they look at me and just blink.

00:03:50.520 | Because most of us have never thought beyond a very simple, facile answer.

00:03:57.160 | So in my opinion, you define rich, not me.

00:03:59.960 | And rich can be picking up your kids every day from school.

00:04:03.560 | Rich can be a thousand dollar cashmere sweater.

00:04:07.680 | And rich can be traveling for eight weeks per year, or it can be just buying

00:04:12.400 | a round of drinks for your friends.

00:04:13.720 | You decide what your rich life is.

00:04:16.520 | And what's your rich life?

00:04:18.920 | Well, my rich life is being able to do work that has big impact and work

00:04:23.480 | with people I like and respect.

00:04:25.120 | It's being able to be generous with the people around me.

00:04:27.560 | It's being able to have a flexible schedule.

00:04:30.040 | So being able to travel, say, six to eight weeks per year.

00:04:33.640 | And being able to dream bigger and then realize those dreams every single year.

00:04:40.520 | One of the interesting things you said is spend time with the people you like.

00:04:44.560 | You mentioned buying a round of drinks if you want.

00:04:47.360 | I feel like rich is always something that people talk about, like,

00:04:50.400 | "I've got to be rich eventually."

00:04:52.520 | But being able to buy a round of drinks for your friends isn't something

00:04:55.680 | you need a million dollars for.

00:04:56.920 | When I started out, I remember being maybe college or right after college.

00:05:00.600 | And to me, rich was being able to order appetizers.

00:05:04.560 | Why?

00:05:05.320 | Because when I was a kid growing up, we never ordered appetizers.

00:05:08.800 | We would hardly ever eat out.

00:05:09.920 | When we did, we had a coupon.

00:05:11.160 | And like appetizers, that was a never going to happen thing.

00:05:17.200 | Then as I got a little bit older, I remember being in New York, hot August

00:05:23.440 | summer, I had to go somewhere for a meeting.

00:05:25.080 | I got to go down into the depths of hell, into the subway in August.

00:05:29.560 | And I'm just dripping in sweat.

00:05:31.760 | And I still cannot figure out how so many guys down there just wearing full

00:05:35.080 | suits, looking totally normal.

00:05:36.520 | I'm dripping, okay?

00:05:38.200 | And I said to myself, you know, my rich life would be in August, in New York,

00:05:44.000 | being able to jump in a taxi and not have to worry about how much it costs.

00:05:48.040 | And anyone who's just a little bit older knows that feeling of sitting in the

00:05:53.040 | back of a taxi when you don't have a lot of money, particularly in your early

00:05:56.080 | twenties and watching that number just tick up.

00:05:59.120 | And so many people are like, Oh yeah, I used to be like, Oh, you can just let

00:06:02.200 | me off here, it's fine.

00:06:03.000 | For me, the dream, the rich life was just simply being able to get in a

00:06:08.560 | taxi and not have to worry.

00:06:10.760 | Now, for a lot of us, that number is not very expensive.

00:06:14.440 | We're talking about 10 bucks a week, maybe 15.

00:06:17.680 | It's not a lot.

00:06:18.400 | For some of us, it's being able to go to the grocery store and

00:06:21.160 | order pre-cut vegetables.

00:06:22.640 | Okay.

00:06:23.080 | Another thing we would never, ever do when I was a kid.

00:06:25.680 | Now, time, money, value has changed a little bit.

00:06:28.360 | Of course, my rich life has expanded now, right?

00:06:31.680 | To be able to travel and do all these things that make the taxi thing look

00:06:36.160 | small, but the point is actually not the price of it.

00:06:39.720 | And that's really important for people to know.

00:06:41.440 | $10 back then meant the world to me.

00:06:44.240 | Now the number might be bigger.

00:06:45.840 | That's great.

00:06:46.320 | It should be bigger, but you're right that a rich life is not simply about

00:06:50.880 | kind of Scrooge McDuck and accumulating money in your spreadsheet.

00:06:54.600 | That is meaningless.

00:06:55.840 | Money matters.

00:06:57.160 | Definitely.

00:06:57.960 | It's a small but important part of a rich life.

00:07:00.440 | But the question that I want to challenge everybody is what are you doing with

00:07:04.560 | your money to live a rich life?

00:07:06.520 | How do people start to figure out when they can start living that rich life?

00:07:10.360 | If you have some debt or if you have, uh, you haven't really saved that much,

00:07:14.200 | but a round of drinks, isn't that expensive?

00:07:16.000 | How do you think people should decide now I can start doing those things that

00:07:19.280 | I want to do, even if they're only 10, 15, $20.

00:07:21.960 | First off, most people don't think about it in that way.

00:07:24.920 | Here's what most people do.

00:07:26.080 | They're torn by two opposing messages.

00:07:28.680 | The first message is cut back on lattes.

00:07:31.720 | Don't spend money on jeans.

00:07:33.760 | Don't go on vacation until you're 75 and maybe just, maybe you can afford to take

00:07:39.800 | a trip to Italy then that's the first message and it is drummed into us in our

00:07:45.080 | puritanical society from day one.

00:07:47.360 | Okay.

00:07:48.000 | So most of us listen to it and we absorb it and we hear phrases like money doesn't

00:07:53.800 | grow on trees.

00:07:54.800 | What do you think I'm made of money?

00:07:56.320 | And Oh, if those rich people had to step on somebody to get there, I call those

00:08:00.280 | invisible scripts. On the other hand, we are bombarded with messages of spending

00:08:06.480 | and consumerism.

00:08:07.560 | Well, my friend who's not even as smart as me is going to Bali on a Wednesday.

00:08:13.040 | How come I can't do that?

00:08:14.320 | You know what?

00:08:14.880 | I'm going to buy this really nice blank, blank, blank car, sweater, trip, et

00:08:18.920 | cetera.

00:08:19.280 | Those two messages are directly in opposition and in America, the consumerist

00:08:26.240 | message tends to win.

00:08:27.840 | Now, what I would say is I have no problem with spending extravagantly on the

00:08:32.400 | things you love as long as you cut costs mercilessly on the things you don't, I

00:08:36.440 | would rather somebody come and say, you know what, Ramit, I love nice clothes or

00:08:41.680 | I love a nice car.

00:08:43.760 | I say, tell me more, tell me what is your dream car?

00:08:47.520 | And I would love to get into that.

00:08:49.360 | And then I would say, great.

00:08:50.960 | Okay.

00:08:51.160 | We put that there.

00:08:51.800 | You want to buy a Tesla?

00:08:52.920 | Maybe you can't afford it today, but you know exactly how long it'll take you to

00:08:55.960 | get there.

00:08:56.360 | Cool.

00:08:56.960 | Yes.

00:08:57.600 | You're going to get that Tesla.

00:08:58.800 | Now tell me what you don't care about.

00:09:01.040 | Well, you know, I don't really, I'm not in the mood to travel for the next couple

00:09:04.400 | of years.

00:09:04.760 | I don't need to buy a house in the Bay area.

00:09:07.720 | I don't need X, Y, Z.

00:09:09.280 | Okay, great.

00:09:09.840 | Let's put that down.

00:09:10.520 | And suddenly you find someone almost like a barbell.

00:09:14.000 | They have one side where they have their extravagant spending, really doubling,

00:09:18.840 | tripling, quadrupling down on the thing that's important.

00:09:21.040 | And then they have that other side where they consciously say, this is not

00:09:24.640 | important to me.

00:09:25.280 | It's just not a thing for me.

00:09:26.920 | And I'm going to cut my costs mercilessly here.

00:09:29.000 | That is a rich life as opposed to the common thing, which is, I know I

00:09:34.120 | shouldn't do it, but I'm going to do it anyway.

00:09:36.160 | And then just feel guilty about it.

00:09:38.040 | And if you're spending extravagantly on the things you care about, how do you

00:09:42.080 | know that it's okay to spend extravagantly without derailing everything?

00:09:46.760 | No one wants to work till they're a hundred.

00:09:48.520 | How do you make sure you're at least setting aside enough to be able to do

00:09:52.400 | that?

00:09:52.640 | Well, my rule of thumb is that you need to get educated about this.

00:09:55.800 | Okay.

00:09:56.200 | So when people are turn 40, there are consistent data that show you go ask

00:10:00.840 | them, what are you worried about most?

00:10:01.920 | They always say the same thing.

00:10:02.880 | Money.

00:10:03.320 | Those very same people have never read a single book about personal finance.

00:10:07.400 | Okay.

00:10:07.920 | And they're like, Oh, it's so hard.

00:10:09.720 | It's impossible to save.

00:10:10.800 | Oh yes, it is very hard.

00:10:13.160 | And there are a lot of external factors making it increasingly unaffordable.

00:10:16.280 | And by the way, out of curiosity, when was the last time you picked up a single

00:10:19.120 | book on personal finance and read it for one weekend?

00:10:21.080 | Oh no, I don't read books.

00:10:23.680 | I don't do that.

00:10:25.360 | Yes.

00:10:25.920 | If you want to master your money or even live a comfortable and or rich life.

00:10:31.640 | Yeah.

00:10:32.240 | You need to be able to speak the basic language of personal finance.

00:10:35.200 | This is not something that I want people to delegate.

00:10:37.560 | This is something that I want people to control because it's simple and it

00:10:41.400 | directly affects you.

00:10:42.480 | So that would be things like knowing, Hey, what's a ballpark rate that I should

00:10:47.880 | be saving every year?

00:10:49.440 | What's a ballpark percentage of income that I should be investing per year?

00:10:53.560 | By the way, the answer to that basic numbers would be 10 and 10%.

00:10:57.080 | I want you to be saving 10% at least.

00:10:59.720 | I want you to be investing at least 10%.

00:11:02.400 | I'm speaking conservatively here at the beginning level of personal finance.

00:11:05.920 | I want you to be able to answer some basic questions.

00:11:07.960 | How much do I owe?

00:11:09.200 | How much do I make?

00:11:10.360 | What percent am I saving and investing?

00:11:12.280 | What are the things I want to spend more on and less on?

00:11:16.120 | By the way, most people don't know the answer to that question.

00:11:18.720 | And finally, what are my invisible scripts about money?

00:11:22.560 | These are the basic questions that you should be able to answer.

00:11:25.480 | And you can read my book, I will teach you to be rich or many other good books on

00:11:29.160 | personal finance.

00:11:30.000 | But as I always say, life is not a Disney movie.

00:11:33.280 | Nobody's coming to rescue you.

00:11:35.040 | And so we have to take as much control of this as we can.

00:11:38.280 | Yeah.

00:11:39.280 | The invisible scripts thing is one that I just want to touch on for a second,

00:11:42.600 | because I think one of the things that I've learned in my career, talking to

00:11:46.600 | people about money as well, is that if you have things that you believe and then

00:11:51.320 | you do a little research, you might find that they're completely wrong.

00:11:53.880 | Yeah.

00:11:54.520 | And in my last startup, my co-founder always joked with people.

00:11:58.320 | He said, look, I can buy a house.

00:12:00.080 | I don't want to buy a house.

00:12:01.120 | I don't think it's a good deal for me.

00:12:02.560 | And people were blown away.

00:12:04.200 | Yeah.

00:12:04.560 | Are there common invisible scripts that you'd challenge people to go question

00:12:08.720 | that you think people get wrong all the time?

00:12:11.080 | The number one invisible script is buying a house is a great investment.

00:12:15.120 | So like your co-founder, I can buy and I choose to rent.

00:12:20.560 | And this completely blows people's minds because they look at me, they go, wait,

00:12:25.000 | this is the, I will teach you a rich guy.

00:12:26.240 | He must have some money, right?

00:12:27.640 | But he's renting, isn't renting for losers.

00:12:30.840 | That's what I've been taught because, and here come the invisible scripts.

00:12:33.760 | You're throwing money away on rent.

00:12:35.960 | You don't want to pay your landlord's mortgage.

00:12:38.400 | You got to build equity, real estate's the best investment and on and on and on.

00:12:42.080 | And my favorite response to that is that whole concept about you're

00:12:47.440 | paying your landlord's mortgage.

00:12:49.720 | It's always said very derisively.

00:12:51.560 | I say, you know, last time you went out to eat, did you feel guilty about paying

00:12:56.880 | the restaurant owner's mortgage as well?

00:13:00.080 | And they look at me like, that's crazy.

00:13:02.400 | And I say, you know, last time you went out to eat, did you feel you were wasting

00:13:07.400 | money as you were throwing it away on a meal, which literally went down the toilet?

00:13:11.640 | Well, that's different.

00:13:13.160 | That's, I said, really, why is it different?

00:13:15.800 | Buying a house in America is religion.

00:13:19.840 | Real estate is religion.

00:13:21.120 | And a lot of people don't understand this because we grew up with what could best be

00:13:26.760 | termed propaganda that has been advanced by one of the, what I would consider most

00:13:32.760 | unethical organizations in America, the National Association of Realtors.

00:13:36.160 | Then we also have the government who actually has encouraged home ownership,

00:13:41.000 | which can be a good goal, but when it becomes a sole metric can be driven to

00:13:45.400 | drive people who cannot comfortably afford a home to buy one.

00:13:48.600 | And then all of us, almost all of us have parents who tell us you've got to buy a

00:13:52.080 | house.

00:13:52.440 | Why?

00:13:52.640 | Because they bought a house and it became a source of wealth to them at that time.

00:13:55.960 | What I want people to do is to really probe and for the biggest purchase of your

00:14:00.320 | life, you actually should be quite versed in this stuff.

00:14:03.880 | And let me give you a simple example of why buying a house may not be the best

00:14:07.520 | investment.

00:14:07.960 | You take somebody who's renting for a thousand dollars a month, easy math, and

00:14:13.080 | you see somebody next door who has a mortgage for a thousand dollars a month

00:14:16.480 | and you think, wow, I might as well get the mortgage because I can build equity,

00:14:20.320 | et cetera, et cetera.

00:14:21.080 | But what you don't factor in is this thing I call phantom costs.

00:14:24.520 | And that is things like repairing your water heater, roof maintenance, increased

00:14:29.680 | purchases like furniture, and of course taxes, et cetera.

00:14:33.640 | Those turn out to be quite substantial in many cases, over 50% higher.

00:14:37.760 | So now suddenly you're talking about $1,000 versus $1,500 a month times 30

00:14:42.120 | years. Let's not forget that you could take that $500 and invest it in the

00:14:46.720 | market in a simple low cost index fund and often outperform real estate.

00:14:51.040 | And finally, let's not forget, I know what people are going to say right now.

00:14:54.360 | Ramit, you're stupid.

00:14:55.560 | You're not factoring in that rents go up. That is true.

00:14:58.520 | Rents do go up sometimes, but rents also go down.

00:15:01.000 | They're down right now.

00:15:02.240 | They're down right now.

00:15:02.960 | And in fact, I lived in Manhattan and when I left last year, the prices were as low

00:15:10.280 | as I had paid 11 years prior.

00:15:13.280 | Think about that.

00:15:14.440 | An entire 11 years erased.

00:15:17.120 | Okay.

00:15:17.720 | The building that I was negotiating with, and this is something they called me up.

00:15:22.200 | They go, Hey, Ramit, we'd love to talk to you about your renewal.

00:15:25.440 | Now I already knew the market.

00:15:26.720 | I keep my eye on the market like a hawk.

00:15:28.720 | I said, okay, what are you offering?

00:15:30.400 | And they go, well, you know, we looked around at the data and we can offer you

00:15:34.920 | renewal with no price increase.

00:15:37.240 | And I knew this guy was a good sales guy.

00:15:39.560 | So it was like game recognized game.

00:15:42.160 | Cause we started having a blast negotiating with each other.

00:15:45.000 | I said, listen, that's not going to work.

00:15:47.040 | You and I both know the market's down.

00:15:48.240 | You better come back to me with a better offer.

00:15:49.600 | He said, okay, I'll call you back next week.

00:15:50.920 | He comes back to me.

00:15:52.360 | He says, I can give you one month free.

00:15:53.800 | First of all, in New York, in Manhattan, that's not bad.

00:15:56.760 | That shows that there's a weak rental market.

00:15:58.520 | I said, look on your website itself, you're giving three months free.

00:16:04.760 | So you're going to have to do better than that.

00:16:06.880 | Cause I can go to the website right now and get that price.

00:16:09.200 | He says, okay, you've been here 11 years.

00:16:12.240 | You tell us what you'd like to pay and we'll see if we can make it work.

00:16:16.560 | Now that is something that people have almost never heard in

00:16:19.760 | a Manhattan real estate market.

00:16:21.240 | Based on what he was saying and the way he was talking, my estimate is I

00:16:25.360 | could have gotten five to six months free in Manhattan.

00:16:30.560 | Now that is a staggering decrease in rent.

00:16:34.000 | Staggering.

00:16:34.800 | Okay.

00:16:35.760 | And so I want to emphasize to people that rent goes up.

00:16:39.240 | It also goes down.

00:16:40.120 | Rent is the maximum you will pay.

00:16:42.520 | A mortgage is the minimum you will pay.

00:16:44.480 | Think about that.

00:16:45.200 | Let me say it again.

00:16:45.720 | Rent is the maximum you will pay.

00:16:47.680 | Mortgage is the minimum you will pay when you factor in things

00:16:51.240 | like taxes, maintenance, et cetera.

00:16:53.080 | And, um, finally, some people, Americans really hate the idea

00:16:57.840 | of paying someone else's mortgage.

00:17:00.640 | They just viscerally hate it.

00:17:02.440 | Americans hate the concept.

00:17:04.800 | It's an invisible script that we have that someone else is making money off us.

00:17:07.640 | Ironically, then we go and pay 1.25% on these loaded up fees and financial

00:17:14.160 | advisors charging AUM, never understanding that they're making tons

00:17:18.720 | of money off of us just invisibly.

00:17:20.520 | So a better way to look at it would be to say your landlord may be making a

00:17:26.400 | profit off for you, or they may not.

00:17:28.840 | They may not even know what number they need to charge in order to make a profit.

00:17:33.480 | But landlords cannot simply pass the costs on to you.

00:17:36.120 | They can only charge what the market will bear.

00:17:38.120 | So that's one big invisible script.

00:17:40.680 | There are several others.

00:17:41.680 | There are many, many others.

00:17:42.480 | I should get married.

00:17:43.560 | That's a common one.

00:17:44.880 | There are a lot of people who have decided not to get married

00:17:47.040 | or I should have children.

00:17:48.160 | That's more and more common these days.

00:17:49.760 | And I'm not saying it's good or bad.

00:17:51.200 | It's simply an invisible script in our country.

00:17:53.360 | My parents were terrible with money.

00:17:55.640 | So I'm terrible with money.

00:17:57.560 | That's an invisible script.

00:17:58.640 | And there are a million others.

00:18:00.480 | What I want to encourage people to do is to dive deeper into your behavior and trace

00:18:05.840 | it back to the messages you received growing up, because those have a profound

00:18:10.400 | impact on your attitudes and behaviors towards money.

00:18:13.240 | When you talked about what you did with your landlord, it reminded me a lot about

00:18:16.960 | the part in your book where you tell readers how to negotiate like an Indian.

00:18:20.600 | Yeah, well, I was raised to negotiate.

00:18:23.840 | I mean, my parents grew up in a culture where they negotiated.

00:18:26.760 | They moved here in the seventies as immigrants.

00:18:29.640 | And I think what I learned from them was, why not just ask?

00:18:34.480 | And that was the first part, which in America, we don't like to ask because

00:18:40.480 | negotiation is seen as cheap and it's very antagonistic.

00:18:45.720 | That's the way we think about it.

00:18:46.600 | I personally love it.

00:18:48.120 | I love, like I had a blast talking to that sales guy over the course of three or four

00:18:53.720 | weeks because he knew what I was doing.

00:18:56.040 | I knew what he was doing.

00:18:57.240 | We both knew it was a dance and he was not obligated to give me anything, nothing

00:19:03.080 | at all.

00:19:03.400 | He was not obligated just because I asked, but I was not obligated to stay.

00:19:07.560 | And so we were both involved in this elaborate, intricate dance where he's

00:19:13.080 | bringing his skills and he's got his number and I've got my number and my

00:19:16.040 | skills and we're bringing them to bear and see what we can come up with.

00:19:18.920 | Now, I do think that sometimes people take negotiation and they go a little bit too

00:19:25.280 | far.

00:19:25.680 | And this is the second thing I learned from my parents, which is there's a time

00:19:29.720 | and a place, okay?

00:19:31.000 | So if you go to some place like a car dealership where it's totally expected

00:19:36.680 | that you negotiate, then you better negotiate.

00:19:38.960 | You're going to negotiate hard and have fun doing it, right?

00:19:41.560 | I write about how my dad would take us to buy a car and to this day, I've never

00:19:44.960 | bought a car with someone who goes in there and buys it and leaves on the same

00:19:47.680 | day.

00:19:47.880 | Like that's totally foreign to me.

00:19:49.360 | The way my dad did it, we would go, we'd come home, we'd go back the next day, eat

00:19:54.360 | breakfast at the dealer.

00:19:55.600 | Then we'd negotiate again, go home.

00:19:57.520 | It was like a four or five day family affair, but you wouldn't do that at a

00:20:01.600 | Michelin starred restaurant.

00:20:02.760 | Okay.

00:20:03.720 | And you could try, but you wouldn't do it at McDonald's.

00:20:06.200 | That's just not the place for it.

00:20:07.560 | I think what I learned is that negotiation is something that we should use

00:20:12.360 | strategically, not be afraid of.

00:20:14.680 | And when there are opportunities to negotiate, particularly on the big things

00:20:19.320 | in life, a house, a car, shopping around your interest rates, those can be worth

00:20:26.120 | tens and tens and tens of thousands of dollars.

00:20:29.000 | So it pays to have that skill in your back pocket.

00:20:31.600 | You don't have to flex it all the time.

00:20:33.320 | In fact, I would say the more financially successful I've become, you know, I tend

00:20:38.000 | to negotiate less, but when I do it, it's for a big ticket item.

00:20:43.120 | Yeah.

00:20:43.960 | The interest rates one is one along with bank fees that I don't think everyone

00:20:47.520 | knows you can totally negotiate.

00:20:49.200 | If you miss a payment, you might not be successful, but you can ask to have that

00:20:53.160 | fixed so it doesn't end up on your credit report.

00:20:55.080 | Late fees are negotiable.

00:20:56.920 | Are there other things that you've learned that people don't think to

00:20:59.760 | negotiate, but would add a lot of value to their lives?

00:21:03.000 | In chapter one of my book, I give people the word for word scripts to negotiate

00:21:07.520 | these credit cards, bank fees, all those things.

00:21:09.840 | That's a big one because it's so small.

00:21:13.880 | It's a $37 fee.

00:21:15.880 | But when people do that, they go, Oh my God, I actually have power against these

00:21:19.960 | multi-billion dollar banks and credit card companies.

00:21:22.640 | So that kind of opens everyone's eyes to realize, Oh my God, I can actually do this.

00:21:26.680 | And $37 is not the point.

00:21:28.400 | The point is I took some control back.

00:21:30.640 | I didn't just eat it.

00:21:32.400 | Yes, there are other things you can negotiate.

00:21:34.800 | So things like payment terms, as a business owner, you can negotiate

00:21:38.800 | payment terms with your vendors.

00:21:40.400 | In terms of traveling, of course, if you're staying seven days, you can

00:21:47.120 | negotiate very, very favorable terms.

00:21:49.600 | If you're staying at the same hotel chain, but in different cities, you

00:21:53.600 | can contact their ticketing office and you can often negotiate a special

00:21:57.840 | rate that's not available.

00:21:59.000 | But I would say that, you know, travel, cars, real estate, those are the big ones.

00:22:06.000 | Get those right.

00:22:07.040 | As I always talk about the big wins.

00:22:08.960 | And then, you know, are you going to negotiate at a farmer's market?

00:22:12.000 | I mean, you could, I don't anymore.

00:22:15.200 | Okay.

00:22:15.880 | So negotiating, I agree.

00:22:18.560 | Don't go too far.

00:22:19.800 | I think the two big levers, if you talk to any financial savvy person is you

00:22:24.640 | can spend less or you can make more.

00:22:26.520 | How do you think about the balance between focusing on trying to make more

00:22:32.160 | money or focusing on trying to cut costs?

00:22:35.800 | Both are important, but I have decidedly come on the side of earning more, right?

00:22:42.720 | There's a limit to how much you can cut, but there's no limit to how much you can

00:22:47.120 | earn.

00:22:47.640 | And so while most Americans do have a spending problem, and if you give me 10

00:22:53.760 | minutes with your spending, I can point out some big opportunities for you.

00:22:57.960 | The fact of the matter is that there's a limit to that.

00:23:00.840 | Okay.

00:23:01.280 | Yeah, you can cut, but suddenly you're at the coupon cutter table on the 30th of

00:23:08.280 | every month and you're sitting there trying to optimize for 38 cents.

00:23:12.080 | It's a waste of time.

00:23:13.440 | And this is why I disagree with the common advice, cut back on lattes.

00:23:17.000 | If you actually run the numbers, $3 a day is not really going to add up to much.

00:23:21.600 | And there's a substantial cost, which is you're going to be unhappy.

00:23:25.120 | If you love your morning coffee and you like getting it on the way to work, why

00:23:29.720 | are you going to try to guilt yourself all to save $3, which most people, first

00:23:34.440 | of all, they're not going to do.

00:23:35.160 | And second of all, it's not like they're taking that $3 and consistently dollar

00:23:38.160 | cost averaging it into the market.

00:23:39.560 | They're just going to spend it somewhere else.

00:23:41.320 | So I would rather you say, you know what?

00:23:43.360 | I like that.

00:23:43.960 | I'm going to spend on that.

00:23:45.000 | I'm going to happily spend on this nice coffee, but I'm going to figure

00:23:48.080 | out a way to earn more.

00:23:48.920 | So in my website and in our programs, we show people how to find a business

00:23:53.760 | idea, how to start it, how to grow it.

00:23:56.320 | So we have all kinds of business owners.

00:23:58.400 | We have over close to 50,000 customers.

00:24:00.440 | And some of them started dog walking businesses.

00:24:03.080 | Some of them started interior design firms and they did this on the side.

00:24:07.600 | And then some of them went full time.

00:24:09.400 | We have some serious entrepreneurs who have started travel businesses

00:24:13.080 | and personal styling businesses.

00:24:15.560 | So there are lots of things that you can do to earn more.

00:24:19.080 | But I think first, go ahead and get your financial system automated.

00:24:23.080 | So you're spending less than one hour per month.

00:24:25.760 | That's when you know, okay, I got all that taken care of.

00:24:28.960 | I've lowered my financial anxiety.

00:24:31.600 | Now what's next?

00:24:33.480 | It seems like with every business, you get to a certain size

00:24:38.320 | and the cracks start to emerge.

00:24:40.280 | Things that you used to do in a day are taking a week and you have too

00:24:44.160 | many manual processes and there's no one source of truth.

00:24:47.360 | If this is you, you should know these three numbers, 37,000, 25, 1.

00:24:54.080 | 37,000, that's the number of businesses which have upgraded to NetSuite by Oracle.

00:24:58.560 | And I'm excited to partner with them for this episode.

00:25:00.920 | NetSuite is the number one cloud financial system, streamlining

00:25:04.480 | accounting, financial management, inventory, HR, and more.

00:25:07.800 | 25, NetSuite turns 25 this year.

00:25:11.160 | That's 25 years of helping businesses do more with less, close their books

00:25:15.800 | in days, not weeks and drive down costs.

00:25:19.120 | And one, because your business is one of a kind.

00:25:22.280 | So you get a customized solution for all your KPIs in one efficient

00:25:26.880 | system with one source of truth.

00:25:28.720 | Manage risk, get reliable forecasts and improve margins.

00:25:32.640 | Everything you need to grow all in one place, which I can tell you from all the

00:25:37.040 | companies I've run makes everything so much better.

00:25:39.840 | So right now download NetSuite's popular KPI checklist designed to give you

00:25:45.080 | consistently excellent performance, absolutely free at allthehacks.com/netsuite.

00:25:51.640 | That's allthehacks.com/netsuite to get your own KPI checklist.

00:25:56.400 | allthehacks.com/netsuite, N-E-T-S-U-I-T-E.

00:26:01.840 | There is nothing I love more than learning that something I

00:26:06.520 | enjoy is actually so good for you.

00:26:08.720 | And nothing showcases that better than Pu-erh tea.

00:26:11.720 | It has so many health benefits and I think one of the best and easiest ways to consume

00:26:15.920 | it is from our sponsor today, Peak Tea.

00:26:18.360 | Peak's Pu-erh teas are all cold extracted using only wild harvested leaves from 250

00:26:24.600 | year old tea trees, rich in minerals, theraflavins, and catechins.

00:26:28.920 | Then everything is triple toxin screened for pesticides, heavy minerals, and

00:26:33.680 | toxic mold commonly found in plants.

00:26:36.040 | And Peak's products are so easy and zero prep because they're all in

00:26:40.520 | pre-measured quantities that dissolve in cold or hot water in seconds

00:26:44.760 | and are so travel friendly.

00:26:46.520 | They have so many products, but lately I've been alternating between the green

00:26:50.760 | Pu-erh for mental clarity and energy and the black Pu-erh, which helps kickstart

00:26:55.480 | digestion and metabolism with a rich earthy flavor that is so good and probably

00:27:00.640 | one of my favorite things to drink.

00:27:02.280 | And if you need another reason, search for all the amazing research-backed

00:27:05.880 | benefits of polyphenols for your gut microbiome, heart, blood sugar, and more.

00:27:10.160 | And then be happy that Pu-erh is more concentrated in polyphenols

00:27:13.600 | than all other teas in the world.

00:27:15.440 | But you don't even have to take my word or do any research because Peak

00:27:19.000 | offers free US shipping, free returns, and a money-backed guarantee.

00:27:22.800 | And for a limited time, you can get up to 15% off and a free quiver with 12

00:27:28.400 | tea samples at my link at allthehacks.com/peak, that's P-I-Q-U-E.

00:27:34.880 | So check them out today at allthehacks.com/peak, P-I-Q-U-E.

00:27:40.240 | What are you spending that one hour on?

00:27:42.960 | Okay.

00:27:44.200 | The way that I set it up is I have a financial automation system.

00:27:48.960 | This is in my book, or you can find it on YouTube.

00:27:50.720 | And imagine your checking account is like an email inbox.

00:27:53.920 | So all your money comes into your checking account, your paycheck, et cetera.

00:27:58.040 | From there, it is automatically filtered out to different

00:28:01.960 | places that it needs to go.

00:28:03.400 | You're going to have some taken to your Roth IRA, perhaps.

00:28:06.120 | You're going to have some taken to your savings account.

00:28:09.080 | Within that savings account, you're going to automatically

00:28:11.880 | have sub-savings accounts.

00:28:13.760 | So you're going to have a wedding savings account or a travel to Morocco

00:28:19.040 | in December account, et cetera, et cetera.

00:28:21.160 | Then you're going to have your credit card being paid off, and of

00:28:24.280 | course, your guilt-free spending.

00:28:25.720 | You want to go out, you want to buy a round of drinks, you want

00:28:27.400 | to buy a beautiful sweater, great.

00:28:30.320 | What I do for one hour per month now is I review that, it's all automatic.

00:28:36.080 | So by default, it's running.

00:28:37.520 | I don't have to do anything, but I just take a look at making sure

00:28:40.440 | everything has been properly paid.

00:28:42.120 | That's it.

00:28:42.520 | Then now I've set up a time with my wife.

00:28:45.800 | So my wife and I, when I got married, it added some new

00:28:49.040 | complexity and opportunities.

00:28:51.120 | And so every month my wife and I sit down and we discuss our finances.

00:28:56.520 | So we've built a model and it, by the way, this was the thing.

00:29:01.320 | When we got married, I was like, let's build the coolest model on earth.

00:29:05.160 | It's going to be crazy.

00:29:06.440 | Everything's going to flow.

00:29:07.560 | And my wife and I were like, she saw money very differently than me.

00:29:11.320 | I'd been dealing with money for 20 years.

00:29:13.280 | I was like, let's optimize growth.

00:29:15.600 | So it took us a long time to get on the same page and be able to build a model

00:29:20.480 | that we both own and share and contribute to, and now when we look at it,

00:29:26.280 | every month for one hour, we sit down, we look at our expenses.

00:29:31.040 | Most of the expenses are static.

00:29:33.800 | Like we basically spend the same amount on groceries every month.

00:29:36.520 | So within parameters, we don't really care.

00:29:38.920 | There are a couple areas that are discretionary to us because

00:29:42.640 | we tend to overspend their variable, like travel, eating out, things like that.

00:29:47.040 | So we have a couple of watch areas, like a dentist watches, a couple of teeth.

00:29:51.560 | We watch a couple of areas, but the most important thing, the

00:29:55.880 | most important thing in that model is we sat down and we did a bucket list exercise.

00:30:02.960 | I said, in the next 10 years, what do you want to do?

00:30:08.760 | What do you want to accomplish?

00:30:10.040 | And we sat and we had a beautiful time.

00:30:12.040 | We sat down and we talked about what are the big things that we want to do?

00:30:17.000 | I'll give you an example.

00:30:18.600 | My wife said she wanted to learn another language.

00:30:21.800 | I said that I wanted to write another book at a hotel.

00:30:26.080 | I love nice hotels and I love the idea of being in this luxurious place where my

00:30:31.360 | bed is made for me and I can go and write in this huge kind of beautiful courtyard.

00:30:36.040 | Okay.

00:30:36.880 | So we kept going and going and we found some things that we want to do together.

00:30:40.080 | We found some things we wanted to do separately.

00:30:42.720 | So I said, let's pick a couple of them, things that really excite us together.

00:30:47.600 | And let's put a dollar value to them.

00:30:50.840 | So we picked 10 year wedding anniversary.

00:30:54.240 | So we were inspired because some of our friends that we know had a 10 year

00:30:58.400 | wedding anniversary in France and they invited a bunch of friends and family

00:31:02.840 | and we were blown away.

00:31:04.040 | We're like, wow, that is, that's, you know, first of all, we don't

00:31:07.480 | know anybody who's done that.

00:31:08.320 | And second, what a cool idea to celebrate a 10 year anniversary.

00:31:13.360 | That's a big deal.

00:31:14.560 | And it's an opportunity to party.

00:31:16.200 | When we got married almost 10 years ago, nine years ago, tomorrow, the

00:31:20.640 | group of friends that we had then is evolved and some of them are closer.

00:31:24.600 | Some of them are more distant and I'm constantly thinking, gosh, if we got

00:31:28.240 | married now, we would have a different experience and I've never really

00:31:32.520 | thought about just having that different experience as a way to celebrate, but I

00:31:36.480 | guess I've got 366 days to figure it out.

00:31:39.160 | Well, early congratulations.

00:31:40.840 | And so we were inspired.

00:31:42.680 | And so we said, you know what, let's do that.

00:31:45.200 | So this is the crux of a rich life.

00:31:48.840 | We took something that we wanted to do an intention and a big intention, a

00:31:54.000 | 10 year wedding anniversary in India.

00:31:57.280 | We know the exact hotel.

00:31:59.080 | We know all the friends and family that we want to invite.

00:32:02.560 | And we know that we want to show them around India.

00:32:05.440 | If they've never been like, we have this whole vision in our mind and we got

00:32:09.040 | excited as we started talking, we started building on each other.

00:32:11.600 | Yeah.

00:32:11.800 | Okay.

00:32:12.040 | And we should do this.

00:32:12.800 | And what about that?

00:32:13.680 | Oh, great.

00:32:14.280 | And I said, okay, now let's connect it to our finances.

00:32:19.200 | Okay.

00:32:19.400 | Cause it's one thing to be a dream.

00:32:21.160 | Let's make it a plan.

00:32:22.360 | So, oh, I said, okay.

00:32:24.920 | I said, how much do you think this is going to cost?

00:32:27.440 | Let's write it down separately on separate pieces of paper.

00:32:30.560 | So it was really funny because she wrote down a number and I wrote down a number

00:32:36.280 | and my number was roughly five to 10 times bigger.

00:32:40.240 | Okay.

00:32:40.840 | I like to spend extravagantly on things that are important.

00:32:44.440 | And she was quite nervous because she said like, we're not spending that much.

00:32:48.200 | And I said, okay, I'll tell you what, this is the way I think about it.

00:32:53.040 | First of all, this is many years away.

00:32:54.720 | So we have lots of time to save and invest for it.

00:32:57.520 | Second, for big, big things in life, really big things, I want to accumulate

00:33:03.640 | enough that cost is never my primary decision.

00:33:07.160 | Okay.

00:33:08.040 | So to give you an example, one day, if, and when we buy a house, I don't want

00:33:13.240 | to shop by price as the first thing.

00:33:15.120 | Same for a car.

00:33:16.600 | Same for if we get childcare help.

00:33:20.280 | I don't want price to be the first factor, or in some cases a factor at all.

00:33:24.920 | And if you're looking and listening and saying, oh, it must be nice.

00:33:27.880 | Don't want to have to look at a price of a house.

00:33:29.160 | Just think about an example that is important to you.

00:33:33.040 | Maybe it's diapers or maybe it's the type of protein shake that you pay for.

00:33:38.240 | There are things in each of our lives that we do not get the cheapest.

00:33:43.120 | We don't even look at the price.

00:33:45.440 | And so whether it's diapers or whether it's a house, obviously those are

00:33:48.400 | different scales, but those are important things.

00:33:50.880 | And so I said to her, look, we've got two different numbers.

00:33:54.120 | Why don't we just take the bigger number and we don't have to achieve that exact

00:33:58.520 | number, but if we get even 85% of it, we have done exceptionally well.

00:34:03.560 | And she was like, okay, let's try it.

00:34:06.600 | Back to our model.

00:34:08.200 | Every month during that one hour, we're looking at our goal.

00:34:13.440 | We have about six or so big goals for the next 10 years.

00:34:17.880 | We're looking at how much we have targeted for that and how much we have

00:34:22.320 | saved and or invested towards that.

00:34:24.480 | So suddenly it all boils down to our rich life.

00:34:28.640 | The one hour that you spend is not meant to look at the price of how much you

00:34:33.400 | spent on lettuce at the grocery store.

00:34:35.000 | Nobody gives a shit.

00:34:35.880 | Oh, I got an extra bag of lettuce and it went rotten.

00:34:38.680 | Oh, it's so bad.

00:34:39.840 | That's a $3 question.

00:34:41.680 | Most of us spend our lives obsessing about $3 questions.

00:34:44.160 | We should really be asking $30,000 questions.

00:34:47.000 | What are the five to 10 rich life things that we, if you're in a couple, want to

00:34:53.880 | achieve together in the next 10 years?

00:34:55.960 | How much is it going to cost?

00:34:57.400 | Ballpark it and dream big.

00:34:59.320 | Don't be, don't be cheap, dream big.

00:35:01.960 | And then do we have a plan on how much we need to save and invest every single

00:35:06.040 | month to achieve that at the end of 10 years, if we just do those six or seven

00:35:10.240 | things, we have lived an amazing life.

00:35:12.640 | Yeah, I feel like I'm ready to go do this exercise.

00:35:16.480 | I know I've fortunately had the chance to be with my wife for 16 years now.

00:35:21.000 | So we've had lots of conversations about money and in many ways, it's interesting

00:35:26.560 | to meet someone when you have no money and grow together because you learn a

00:35:31.320 | lot along the way.

00:35:32.320 | Are there things, I know this is something, you know, that you've been

00:35:36.120 | spending a lot of time thinking about recently.

00:35:38.360 | Are there things you've learned about how couples and people in relationships

00:35:41.800 | manage money that made your life better in that regard?

00:35:44.960 | Well, so many surprises when it comes to couples.

00:35:48.640 | Oh my gosh.

00:35:49.360 | So I've had the fortune of being able to talk to couples and they share everything

00:35:54.080 | with me.

00:35:54.440 | They share their numbers.

00:35:55.800 | I know down to the decimal point, how much they make, how much they spend, etc.

00:36:00.320 | And that, first of all, is very intimate.

00:36:04.800 | You know, in my book, I cite a study where people would more likely be willing

00:36:09.880 | to talk about their sex lives than their amount of credit card debt.

00:36:13.280 | So this is highly intimate stuff.

00:36:15.760 | What I learned when speaking to couples about money is that most of them have

00:36:20.840 | never thought about what a rich life means.

00:36:22.600 | So in their head, they delegate off to someday.

00:36:27.200 | That's number one.

00:36:28.040 | Number two, they minimize their problems.

00:36:32.040 | So I'll get on a call with a couple and I'll say, how important is this to you?

00:36:35.280 | How serious is this issue to you?

00:36:37.080 | Now, remember, they have gotten on a call with me and they're sharing all their

00:36:42.600 | finances.

00:36:43.240 | And when I asked him that question, they almost universally go, it's not that bad.

00:36:47.280 | I mean, you know, he, he does overspend a little bit on this, but it's actually

00:36:51.000 | fine.

00:36:51.760 | I mean, we could make it work and you know, he, he just buys a little bit too

00:36:56.360 | much.

00:36:56.560 | And I go, okay, let's say that he does that now and you've talked about it and

00:37:01.600 | he doesn't listen to you.

00:37:02.440 | Let's fast forward to when you have two kids, what's going to happen then?

00:37:06.400 | And then suddenly the partner will go, Oh yeah, that's going to get worse.

00:37:12.000 | I say, now what happens if that persists for another 25 years?

00:37:15.760 | And suddenly they can see that a four out of 10 easily becomes a nine out of 10,

00:37:22.960 | which is divorce level.

00:37:24.160 | So what I want to emphasize to couples is that overspending on a video game or

00:37:31.320 | not being too cheap, that's a very common thing that I hear.

00:37:35.000 | Oh, we have money, but we don't want to spend it.

00:37:36.960 | That is a four out of 10 today, but it quickly turns into a nine out of 10

00:37:43.280 | tomorrow.

00:37:43.880 | So when people say I got divorced because of the dishes, yeah, it was the dishes

00:37:49.280 | 25 years ago and it mutated and calcified into something way more serious.

00:37:54.120 | So take control, nip it in the bud, manage that as opposed to waiting and just

00:37:59.440 | saying, Oh, it'll fix itself on its own.

00:38:01.640 | It never will.

00:38:02.240 | And do you find that if you tell couples, Hey, this could evolve and get worse?

00:38:06.680 | Are they more receptive to talking about it than they were when you first

00:38:10.440 | mentioned it?

00:38:10.840 | They instantly get it.

00:38:11.760 | They instantly get it.

00:38:13.120 | Everyone gets it because we all know couples who fight everybody, whether

00:38:19.120 | you're single or in a relationship, everybody knows a couple, you're like,

00:38:22.000 | Oh, you go home after hanging out with her, you're like, they should not be

00:38:24.640 | together. And you can see that a single little issue can be amplified and

00:38:31.080 | magnified to consume a relationship.

00:38:33.760 | And soon it becomes the ghost in the relationship.

00:38:36.560 | And I don't want that.

00:38:37.800 | I'll give you a couple of examples here.

00:38:39.040 | I spoke to a couple where they told me that their friends call them cheap.

00:38:43.760 | First of all, if your friends call you cheap, you're cheap.

00:38:47.120 | Okay.

00:38:47.800 | That's a good rule of thumb.

00:38:49.440 | And I said, are you cheap?

00:38:51.320 | They said, no, no, no, no, no.

00:38:53.320 | We just prefer to spend consciously on the things that we like.

00:38:56.560 | I said, okay, you guys have read chapter four of my book.

00:38:58.480 | Okay, well, I'm going to probe on this.

00:39:00.480 | So I said, what do you like to spend on?

00:39:03.440 | They said, well, we like to save, but we'll spend on a health food and stuff

00:39:09.480 | like that.

00:39:09.760 | Great.

00:39:10.080 | I says, why do your friends call you cheap?

00:39:12.040 | Well, they say that we've lived here for five years and we have no furniture.

00:39:15.520 | I was like, okay.

00:39:16.880 | And they say that when we go out to eat, we will, we want to order the steak, but

00:39:21.840 | we order the chicken.

00:39:22.880 | I was like, okay.

00:39:24.400 | I'm like checking a box on my notepad.

00:39:26.400 | And then my friend invited me to her bachelorette party, but the invitation

00:39:31.080 | came out of nowhere.

00:39:31.760 | I wasn't expecting it and it was $600.

00:39:33.920 | So that wasn't fair to expect me to pay $600.

00:39:36.880 | Like all of these things have good rationale and they have good logic behind

00:39:42.320 | them for why they didn't want to spend it.

00:39:43.720 | But ultimately then I asked them one single question.

00:39:46.200 | What's your household income?

00:39:47.520 | $600,000.

00:39:50.440 | So at $600,000, they're agonizing over $600 for a bachelorette party

00:39:55.680 | and chicken versus steak.

00:39:57.480 | No, that's cheaper.

00:39:59.240 | And it took me pointing it out to them for them to almost be visibly

00:40:03.880 | shaken and to say, oh my God.

00:40:05.200 | And when you fast forward that, they said, when we have X dollars and when

00:40:09.800 | we've worked Y years, we're going to start spending.

00:40:12.320 | So you're telling me at age of 68, you're going to suddenly turn into these

00:40:17.240 | National Geographic explorers and you're going to learn the skills

00:40:20.880 | of spending, very unlikely.

00:40:23.440 | I feel like you might've been telling a story about my wife and I, who also

00:40:28.560 | have a problem where I think I grew up never thinking I'd find a job I loved.

00:40:33.000 | And so I thought, man, one day I'll need enough money that I don't have to work.

00:40:37.760 | Not because I can't work, because I want to love what I do.

00:40:40.760 | And now I finally feel like I found something that I love doing,

00:40:45.000 | but the switch didn't flip.

00:40:46.560 | So I feel like we need to have one of these sessions sometime because I really

00:40:51.160 | feel like I'm the person who's maybe not even ordering the chicken, maybe just

00:40:54.920 | ordering two appetizers instead of the steak.

00:40:57.920 | I appreciate you saying that because in America, almost 90 plus percent of

00:41:03.040 | financial education is geared towards people who don't have enough money.

00:41:07.280 | Okay.

00:41:08.120 | It's like save and you should cut coupons and all these kind of nickel and dime

00:41:13.640 | type of pieces of advice that people give.

00:41:16.400 | And we've all seen this stuff.

00:41:18.480 | Read any mass market publication.

00:41:21.120 | It'll say stuff like put your vegetables in a Ziploc bag because

00:41:24.920 | they'll last an extra two days.

00:41:26.520 | Okay.

00:41:26.880 | And fine.

00:41:27.520 | There are, when you're starting out or when you're on a low income, you do need

00:41:31.440 | different types of advice in terms of saving money.

00:41:33.400 | Fair enough.

00:41:34.120 | But there's a very neglected group of people in this country, which is people

00:41:38.400 | who have started to save, earn and invest money, and now they have no idea what to

00:41:45.040 | do with it.

00:41:45.480 | And you're right.

00:41:46.640 | I love the way you described that.

00:41:47.880 | That switch does not flip magically.

00:41:51.280 | And if you have been operating under scarcity and saving for the last 40 or 50

00:41:56.960 | years of your life, it becomes virtually impossible to change it.

00:42:00.560 | If you're listening to this, think about your parents or any relatives, you know,

00:42:04.280 | who have enough, maybe they're in their sixties or seventies.

00:42:07.920 | They have enough.

00:42:08.840 | And yet, what do they talk about?

00:42:10.840 | I got to save more.

00:42:12.400 | I got to save more.

00:42:14.040 | I spoke to a couple who was older and I said, looking back on your life, if you

00:42:18.680 | could go back to your 20 year old self and give them some advice, what would you

00:42:23.040 | do?

00:42:23.280 | And they said, save more.

00:42:25.440 | And I happen to know their financial situation.

00:42:27.880 | I said, but you have more than enough now.

00:42:30.440 | What would you have done with the extra money?

00:42:32.400 | And they just looked at me.

00:42:34.160 | They'd never thought about it.

00:42:36.360 | They were operating off an automatic script that we need to save more.

00:42:40.880 | But there is a point at which you have saved too much.

00:42:46.080 | Let me say that again for people, cause you've probably never heard that.

00:42:49.240 | There is a point where you have saved too much.

00:42:52.400 | What do you do then?

00:42:53.920 | Do you think you're going to just magically say, oh my gosh, the math

00:42:58.120 | equation revealed itself on my Excel spreadsheet, cell C3.

00:43:02.040 | That's it.

00:43:03.200 | I'm quitting my job.

00:43:04.160 | We're traveling the world.

00:43:05.840 | Of course not.

00:43:06.440 | And I think Chris, you know this better than anyone because you realize that the

00:43:11.400 | cage you created around yourself, the way you articulated it to yourself was, I

00:43:16.760 | need more money, but really that cage was one created of your own mind and you

00:43:23.160 | could have stepped out of that cage at any time.

00:43:25.640 | And if you don't step out today, that cage will only get more and more fortified.

00:43:31.160 | It will become harder and harder to step out.

00:43:34.400 | So I'm not encouraging anyone to just quit their jobs and

00:43:37.520 | go travel the world 24/7.

00:43:40.000 | That would be unlikely.

00:43:41.320 | But what I am saying is there has to be a whole new money lens.

00:43:46.360 | You have to turn the page in the chapter of your life and say, I won.

00:43:51.320 | I won chapter one.

00:43:53.280 | Now I'm on to chapter two and chapter two is really about spending on the things I

00:43:58.560 | love, not looking for the best value.

00:44:02.000 | It's actually saying, you know what?

00:44:03.560 | I don't need an ROI on this.

00:44:05.600 | I'm just going to do it because I want to.

00:44:08.000 | And that, especially when you're partnered with someone who also grew up and is in

00:44:13.680 | chapter one is incredibly difficult.

00:44:16.240 | Often takes bringing somebody like me in to help guide you through that process.

00:44:20.720 | Sometimes the smallest changes make the biggest impact and Trade Coffee is a

00:44:27.400 | great addition to your new year routine.

00:44:29.680 | And I am so excited to be partnering with them today.

00:44:32.360 | Trade is a subscription service we've been using for over a year that sources

00:44:36.360 | the best coffee across the country and brings it straight to your doorstep.

00:44:40.840 | They've built relationships with over 50 local roasters.

00:44:44.000 | So you can enjoy their craft from the comfort of your own home at a fraction

00:44:48.240 | of the cost of going out for coffee.

00:44:50.160 | There's multiple ways to experience coffee with Trade.

00:44:53.360 | Sign up for a subscription or try one of their starter packs today.

00:44:57.160 | It's been so convenient for us to have coffee just show up exactly when we need

00:45:01.600 | it and over the past year, we've gotten so many great coffees from Trade, but

00:45:06.080 | this last bag of beans from Drink Coffee Do Stuff in Tahoe, it's called Bark

00:45:10.760 | the Moon and it's so delicious.

00:45:12.760 | So jumpstart this year by signing up for a Trade subscription.

00:45:16.280 | Right now, Trade is offering a free bag with select subscription plans when you

00:45:20.760 | visit allthehacks.com/trade that's allthehacks.com/trade for a free bag with

00:45:27.880 | select subscription plans allthehacks.com/trade.

00:45:31.960 | Do you all remember episode 122 when I spoke to chef David Chang about

00:45:38.440 | leveling up your cooking at home?

00:45:40.000 | If not, definitely go back and give it a listen.

00:45:42.520 | But one of his top hacks was using the microwave more.

00:45:45.920 | I'll admit I was a skeptic at first, but after getting a full set of microwave

00:45:50.720 | cookware from Anyday, I'm a total convert and I'm excited to partner

00:45:54.640 | with them for this episode.

00:45:55.760 | Anyday is glass cookware specifically designed to make delicious food from

00:46:00.040 | scratch in the microwave and honestly using it feels like a kitchen cheat

00:46:04.360 | code because it speeds up and simplifies the process so much.

00:46:08.280 | The cookware is a hundred percent plastic free and you can cook, serve,

00:46:12.320 | store, and reheat all in the same dish that happens to be dishwasher,

00:46:17.000 | freezer, and oven safe too.

00:46:18.800 | And if you need a recipe suggestion to kick off your Anyday adventure, I

00:46:22.520 | highly recommend David Chang's Salmon Rice.

00:46:25.120 | It is so good.

00:46:26.520 | And if you haven't checked out the Matt Black IO collection they launched

00:46:30.960 | last year, you have to check it out.

00:46:33.080 | So to get 15% off our new favorite cookware, go to allthehacks.com/anyday.

00:46:39.800 | Again, that's allthehacks.com/anyday for 15% off.

00:46:45.240 | I just want to thank you quick for listening to and supporting the show.

00:46:50.360 | Your support is what keeps this show going.

00:46:53.440 | To get all of the URLs, codes, deals, and discounts from our partners, you

00:46:58.040 | can go to allthehacks.com/deals.

00:47:01.160 | So please consider supporting those who support us.

00:47:04.600 | Yeah.

00:47:05.080 | You talked about taking time off to travel.

00:47:07.480 | You talked about planning this epic 10 year anniversary trip.

00:47:10.760 | Travel is something that I think both of us have found ways to spend money on.

00:47:15.800 | And while sometimes I play the points and miles game because I don't want to spend

00:47:20.400 | money, I've at least been able to take amazing vacations and I know you have a

00:47:25.440 | ton of kind of tips, tricks, hacks, and that's the theme of this show.

00:47:29.320 | So can you talk a little bit about travel and the things you've done and

00:47:32.880 | evolved the way you travel to make it better?

00:47:35.040 | Yes.

00:47:35.400 | But first, are you actually going to spend any money on traveling?

00:47:38.000 | Because every time I talk to you, you're like burning points, which is awesome.

00:47:42.600 | You've taught me a lot about points.

00:47:43.760 | Are you ever going to actually spend cash on traveling?

00:47:47.080 | I have taken one trip where we spent money, like real money, but I don't know.

00:47:52.200 | I have all these miles.

00:47:53.080 | I got to use them.

00:47:53.920 | Do you recall, I'm going to share this with everybody.

00:47:56.400 | So one time we were meeting in New York, we're exchanging tips about travel and

00:48:01.600 | stuff, and you go, "Hey, do you know where I'm staying right now?"

00:48:04.800 | I go, "No."

00:48:06.080 | You know, which hotel?

00:48:07.120 | There's a lot of good hotels in the city.

00:48:08.360 | You were staying at an airport hotel near JFK because it was free points and you had

00:48:16.040 | to optimize some triple challenge thing or whatever.

00:48:19.360 | And you were going to go there after we finished meeting to fly out.

00:48:23.120 | Now, first of all, I thought that was brilliant because I never thought about

00:48:25.480 | staying in an airport hotel for whatever point thing you told me.

00:48:27.760 | And then I said, "Chris, dude, I think you make pretty good money.

00:48:32.240 | Is it time for you to spend money on a hotel near where you are?"

00:48:37.080 | What do you think?

00:48:38.480 | Yeah, I think the answer is I'm learning.

00:48:41.760 | Do you want me to just plan your next trip?

00:48:44.240 | I'll do it, but all it requires is an unlimited budget.

00:48:47.200 | Oh, man.

00:48:47.840 | Will you do it?

00:48:48.920 | I...

00:48:49.920 | Unlimited?

00:48:51.360 | I won't bankrupt you.

00:48:53.760 | You will have the time of your life.

00:48:56.680 | I don't know if I could comfortably make a decision, although I guarantee you my

00:49:00.480 | wife would say yes.

00:49:01.440 | Oh, really?

00:49:02.040 | So...

00:49:02.800 | I think we could do it.

00:49:03.520 | Oh my God.

00:49:04.600 | This is crazy.

00:49:05.800 | Okay.

00:49:06.240 | Hold on.

00:49:07.000 | I need to understand this because I didn't expect you to say yes.

00:49:09.720 | So your wife wants you to spend more on traveling?

00:49:14.640 | I think yes.

00:49:16.120 | And why is that?

00:49:17.120 | It's not just about spending for the sake of spending.

00:49:19.440 | Why does she want that?

00:49:21.560 | We both love travel.

00:49:22.560 | We've taken months off to backpack.

00:49:24.800 | We've stayed in amazing places, and we've saved enough that we can, and we

00:49:31.800 | sometimes let life get in the way.

00:49:34.400 | Meaning?

00:49:35.040 | Meaning, so here's a great example.

00:49:37.080 | It's in the middle of June.

00:49:38.760 | We've identified that in July, we don't have any obligations.

00:49:44.000 | We're still able to work remote, and we could take one to four weeks and be

00:49:50.560 | anywhere.

00:49:51.040 | We can't stop working for four weeks.

00:49:52.840 | And my parents are in town and not going anywhere, and they could watch our

00:49:58.520 | daughter, and we could take a trip, whether it's a weekend or a week.

00:50:01.800 | And we're a little paralyzed of all of the options to even figure out what to do,

00:50:05.960 | where to go, and how to have a good time.

00:50:07.960 | But we both want to do it, and somehow our crazy desire to get a deal is getting in

00:50:14.120 | the way.

00:50:14.480 | Okay, wait, wait, wait, hold on.

00:50:15.600 | We got to go deeper on this for just a second.

00:50:17.520 | This has now turned into my podcast, but I love this, and I think this is very

00:50:21.240 | revealing.

00:50:21.800 | So first of all, the fact that your parents can watch your daughter is amazing.

00:50:26.320 | You have flexible ability to travel.

00:50:28.120 | Amazing.

00:50:28.920 | Budget is not primarily the issue.

00:50:32.640 | You could spend it if you wanted to.

00:50:34.720 | That's great.

00:50:36.280 | Is it being paralyzed by all the options, or is it the need to find a deal?

00:50:41.200 | It's definitely the latter.

00:50:42.560 | The deal.

00:50:43.480 | I finally evolved to paying someone to do groceries, and I felt really good about

00:50:47.760 | that move.

00:50:48.320 | But I'm like on Amazon, and Amazon now has you can order from Whole Foods, you

00:50:52.400 | can order from Amazon Fresh.

00:50:53.640 | And I'm the person that like pulls the cart up on one, mirrors the cart on the

00:50:57.920 | other, and then does the thing that's the worst, which is tries to just do both.

00:51:03.360 | And now I've got to meet the $35 minimum on Eats.

00:51:06.240 | This is crazy.

00:51:06.800 | Okay, so again, let's just set some context around this.

00:51:10.080 | If groceries are a substantial part of your budget every week, then it makes

00:51:15.880 | sense that you might say, "Hey, I'm going to try to save.

00:51:19.600 | I might go to Costco," et cetera, et cetera.

00:51:21.400 | If you're in the financial situation that you are, where you're earning more than

00:51:25.760 | you need for Whole Foods, et cetera, then you understand intellectually that it's a

00:51:32.320 | complete waste of your time to be doing this.

00:51:34.000 | And your time would be better spent spending time with your family, or

00:51:37.800 | honestly, just browsing on Reddit.

00:51:39.240 | Anything except for this.

00:51:41.320 | So what is it about that that makes you want to keep comparing $3 price on baking

00:51:47.960 | soda?

00:51:48.320 | I think the satisfaction of checking out and being like, "I managed to, from the

00:51:55.560 | same company, I managed to find the arbitrage opportunity."

00:51:59.160 | The unsweetened applesauce is $2.50 from Whole Foods and $4.79 at Amazon Fresh.

00:52:07.080 | That's outrageous.

00:52:07.840 | And it doesn't matter, except that I feel so good that I kind of like stuck it to

00:52:12.280 | Amazon.

00:52:12.920 | You got them.

00:52:13.600 | Okay, so this is what I'm talking about when I say turning the page in your book

00:52:18.640 | of life.

00:52:19.160 | So it's true.

00:52:20.240 | I totally get it.

00:52:21.080 | There are certain things that I do that are irrational.

00:52:23.280 | And I'm not saying you should just stop feeling that way, because you're never

00:52:26.960 | going to stop.

00:52:27.400 | You're always going to want the deal.

00:52:28.800 | And that's fine.

00:52:29.400 | But at a certain point, what I would suggest is to redirect and find joy in

00:52:35.880 | something else.

00:52:36.720 | Okay?

00:52:37.240 | Because you've already won the game of personal finance in chapter one.

00:52:41.920 | You really have.

00:52:42.960 | So yes, $2, $4, okay, you want to find a deal every quarter, focus it on one

00:52:49.480 | thing, feel good, great.

00:52:50.920 | But what I would encourage you as you turn that page into chapter two of

00:52:54.640 | personal finance would be, where else can you find joy?

00:52:58.240 | So I want to give you an example with your wife, you have the opportunity to

00:53:01.480 | travel somewhere.

00:53:02.160 | Let's put deals aside, putting your wife first in this case, what would be truly

00:53:08.360 | joyful to her?

00:53:09.080 | What is something that she loves when traveling?

00:53:12.720 | Examples would be a pool in your room, right?

00:53:17.440 | In your own private backyard, a beach set up, hiking, what would be the thing

00:53:22.760 | that would be like mind blowing?

00:53:24.480 | I'll give you some examples from my own life, because my wife and I went through

00:53:28.160 | this exact thing, same thing too.

00:53:29.840 | We sat down and we planned out our honeymoon and we were inspired by other

00:53:36.720 | people who were a little older than us.

00:53:38.160 | They said, Oh, we were planning to go on like an eight day safari, which was very

00:53:43.200 | exotic to us.

00:53:43.920 | We'd never been.

00:53:44.480 | And they go, that sounds awesome.

00:53:46.320 | When we got married long time ago, we took six months off.

00:53:49.880 | We're like, what?

00:53:51.000 | And then the next couple was like, yeah, we took a year off.

00:53:53.240 | We traveled the world.

00:53:53.840 | We're like, who are these people?

00:53:55.040 | Thought they were just normal.

00:53:57.040 | And as we walked out of there, my wife and I kind of looked at first, we were

00:53:59.720 | like, those people are crazy.

00:54:01.680 | But then we said, Hey, what if we did that?

00:54:04.320 | What if we, I mean, we both work remotely, could we do it?

00:54:08.520 | And we shifted into that what if mode.

00:54:11.000 | And so we started to dream and really dream big, similar to our 10 year plan.

00:54:15.720 | And we said, okay, what do we want on this trip?

00:54:19.000 | So I had a list of places I wanted to go and they were not geographically

00:54:24.400 | related whatsoever.

00:54:25.280 | They're all over the place.

00:54:26.800 | But both of us independently said, we want to bring our parents for part of it.

00:54:30.080 | Our parents are alive.

00:54:31.520 | They're mobile.

00:54:32.240 | They enjoy time with us and with each other.

00:54:34.120 | And so we said, you know what?

00:54:36.760 | First stop, Italy.

00:54:38.040 | It's safe.

00:54:39.160 | Everybody loves cheese.

00:54:40.400 | And we told our parents to show up at the airport.

00:54:42.800 | That's all you have to do.

00:54:43.680 | And they came and we planned this trip.

00:54:46.560 | You know, my mother-in-law, she had never been to the Vatican.

00:54:48.920 | Actually, they had never really left the country.

00:54:51.440 | So we, you know, had cars pick them up and we took them to the Vatican behind the

00:54:56.800 | scenes tour.

00:54:57.400 | Very meaningful.

00:54:59.080 | Okay.

00:54:59.560 | Not about how much we spent, but about going, for example, we went to a farmer's

00:55:04.560 | market with a chef, picked vegetables, and then went and cooked like four or five

00:55:09.240 | courses together with him.

00:55:10.360 | Like all of us are hands dirty and making pasta together.

00:55:13.880 | We will always remember that meal.

00:55:16.480 | Incredibly meaningful to us.

00:55:18.520 | What I would suggest in this chapter two of your personal finance life would be to

00:55:23.520 | say, find the joy in creating the most meaningful experience for you and your

00:55:30.520 | wife.

00:55:30.960 | Meaningful.

00:55:32.120 | That can be adventure.

00:55:34.040 | It can be sitting by a beach for seven days, you know, very nice hotels.

00:55:39.440 | So you find, I think, joy in certain hotels.

00:55:41.800 | It could be, I want to stay at this hotel or this city.

00:55:43.680 | It could be bringing friends with you, if that's what you want.

00:55:47.320 | Price comes second when it comes to the most meaningful things in life.

00:55:51.400 | And in some cases, price isn't even a factor at all.

00:55:55.000 | If you can get to that point where you have this opportunity, you have time, you

00:56:02.200 | have money, and you forcibly turn that page, that can be one way to get into the

00:56:09.920 | next stage of personal finance for you.

00:56:11.720 | All right.

00:56:12.760 | I got homework.

00:56:13.640 | Great.

00:56:15.000 | I do want to come back because I know you have some travel things that you do.

00:56:18.600 | Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:19.240 | That I think people want to hear.

00:56:20.320 | So when I travel domestically for work, I like to try to stay on my fitness plan and

00:56:27.160 | nutrition plan.

00:56:28.040 | And you know, if it's like one day, it's no big deal.

00:56:31.040 | But if I'm staying somewhere for three or four days, what I'll do is I'll have food

00:56:34.640 | sent ahead of time.

00:56:35.760 | And this is like a very inexpensive way to do it.

00:56:39.080 | I have Whole Foods.

00:56:40.480 | My assistant will coordinate.

00:56:41.720 | She knows exactly what I eat.

00:56:43.880 | And so she will have somebody deliver it from Instacart, Whole Foods, et cetera.

00:56:48.480 | It will show up at the hotel and she'll make sure that there's a fridge in the

00:56:52.640 | room.

00:56:52.920 | And it's all like the exact foods that I would eat at home.

00:56:57.040 | And so even if I'm going to go out to dinner with a co-worker or somebody in a

00:57:02.080 | city, I know that in the morning I'm going to eat right.

00:57:04.400 | Probably at lunch I'm going to eat right.

00:57:06.240 | And it just keeps me on plan, keeps me feeling really good.

00:57:09.320 | And it's all kind of effortlessly handled.

00:57:12.120 | So that's one.

00:57:12.840 | Again, think about it.

00:57:14.280 | You would have had to essentially be a king to do this 40 years ago.

00:57:19.320 | Now you can have it almost automatically done by logging on to Instacart and

00:57:25.360 | having it delivered to the hotel and they will keep it refrigerated for you until

00:57:28.600 | you arrive.

00:57:29.160 | So that's awesome.

00:57:30.480 | I love that.

00:57:31.120 | Also really, really love when we travel.

00:57:35.280 | I learned this from a friend of mine.

00:57:37.360 | My friend was big in the museum world.

00:57:40.080 | And one time he told me, he goes, if I go to a new museum, I'm spending 90

00:57:44.920 | minutes there max.

00:57:46.560 | And the first 30 minutes are at the cafe.

00:57:49.000 | And I was like, what?

00:57:51.400 | Because when we grew up, we never went to museums.

00:57:53.960 | And on the rare occasion we did, we would spend all day there, like all day,

00:57:59.280 | because we were never going back.

00:58:00.360 | And it was expensive.

00:58:01.200 | Same as Disneyland.

00:58:02.240 | We get there when it opens and my parents would drag us out of there crying and

00:58:07.280 | tired by the end of the, because we're never going back there.

00:58:09.240 | Okay.

00:58:10.560 | So the fact that my friend said, I'm only spending 90 minutes and 30 minutes

00:58:14.680 | in the cafe kind of blew my mind.

00:58:16.240 | And what he really meant was, I'm going to be abundant enough to know that I can

00:58:23.080 | always go back.

00:58:23.800 | I don't have to see everything the first time.

00:58:25.680 | So when my wife and I travel, we will, we now have a rule for ourself.

00:58:30.360 | We don't want to go anywhere for less than four days.

00:58:32.280 | Four days is the amount for us that it's leisurely enough that we can get to know

00:58:36.320 | a place, not be in a rush.

00:58:38.000 | We're totally comfortable saying we don't want to see that.

00:58:40.840 | And that was a huge abundant moment for me where I realized I don't have to see

00:58:46.240 | every monument and museum.

00:58:48.120 | I can choose the things I do.

00:58:49.320 | And then we go super deep on the things we do.

00:58:51.520 | So for example, in Kyoto, my wife and I love design.

00:58:55.920 | So we arranged, first we made some, I love stationary too.

00:59:00.560 | So first we made notepads by hand with this old stationary master.

00:59:04.680 | And then we arranged to visit this couple who invited us into their house and their

00:59:10.440 | architects.

00:59:11.160 | And so they shared how the Japanese live differently than Americans.

00:59:16.160 | And they gave us quite a bit of, we talked a lot about design in Japan versus

00:59:22.200 | America.

00:59:22.800 | And that was crazy to be able to find a couple who would allow us into their house.

00:59:27.840 | That's kind of rare there.

00:59:28.840 | And they happened to be architects, so they could comment on design.

00:59:31.840 | I had all these questions that I wanted to ask.

00:59:33.960 | To me, that was super, super meaningful.

00:59:36.280 | And so for anyone traveling, I would just encourage you kind of thinking about what

00:59:41.280 | do you love?

00:59:41.880 | What really gets you off?

00:59:43.240 | And it could be weird.

00:59:44.000 | Like I love notepads and stationary.

00:59:45.720 | Where did you find these people?

00:59:47.360 | So this is the question.

00:59:48.640 | This is the, so these days, the easiest place to start is Airbnb experiences.

00:59:53.720 | That's very easy and you can find amazing stuff.

00:59:57.400 | We always do a food tour whenever we go to a city.

00:59:59.680 | It's a great way to get to know a place that you talked about that in an earlier

01:00:02.640 | podcast.

01:00:03.200 | And we also, for some of the more obscure stuff, like the architect people that you

01:00:10.000 | have to often make special arrangements.

01:00:11.600 | So we had a specialty tour guide who we said, this is the kind of stuff we want.

01:00:16.520 | Can you help us arrange it?

01:00:18.120 | And that, that took time and money to arrange, but honestly, we would rather

01:00:22.760 | spend on that than just seeing a random monument that has no meaning to us.

01:00:30.600 | Any other travel or non-travel financial kind of, I'll say hacks, because that's

01:00:36.200 | the show that you've learned over the years?

01:00:39.000 | Yeah.

01:00:39.280 | I have one called Ramit's book buying rule.

01:00:41.280 | And that is, if you ever see a book that you're interested in, just buy it.

01:00:45.600 | Don't debate, don't agonize, don't equivocate, just get it.

01:00:49.720 | Because one line of one book can transform your life.

01:00:53.800 | And I don't just say that because I'm an author.

01:00:55.840 | I live it myself.

01:00:57.240 | I buy any book that looks remotely interesting.

01:00:59.840 | And worst case, I'm out 10 or 15 bucks.

01:01:03.080 | Best case, changes my life.

01:01:05.440 | I think that is actually one, or at least part of one of your money rules.

01:01:09.840 | I thought it was fascinating to read through how you've kind of framed.

01:01:14.240 | These are the things that are important to me.

01:01:15.880 | I know if you just search Ramit's money rules, you can find them, but can you

01:01:19.120 | talk a little bit about why you did that and how it's changed things?

01:01:22.200 | I created the 10 money rules because I wanted to boil down all the ways I look

01:01:28.920 | at money in life into 10 simple, easy rules that helped me manage the millions

01:01:34.400 | of decisions I'll have to make about money.

01:01:36.120 | So I'll give you a couple of examples.

01:01:37.480 | Save 10%, invest 20% of gross annual income.

01:01:41.640 | That's sort of a standard, no big deal.

01:01:44.200 | That's not a surprise.

01:01:45.160 | But how about this one?

01:01:47.360 | Never question spending on books, appetizers, health, or donating

01:01:54.360 | to a friend's charity fundraiser.

01:01:56.040 | And this one is deeply personal to me.

01:01:58.560 | Appetizers, as you know, I used to never be able to afford it.

01:02:01.760 | So it's funny.

01:02:02.720 | Why am I talking about appetizers?

01:02:04.440 | That's why.

01:02:05.200 | But donating to a friend's charity fundraiser.

01:02:07.080 | I know this because I've done charity fundraisers and it was really meaningful

01:02:11.560 | when my friends donated to support me.

01:02:14.440 | So that's one.

01:02:15.520 | Then we get into kind of bigger rules.

01:02:18.120 | One of them is be able to pay in full for large expenses, like a wedding,

01:02:25.120 | dream honeymoon, or even a house.

01:02:28.000 | That's a big one.

01:02:29.360 | That's not practical for most people.

01:02:31.240 | And if you're listening to this saying, wait, so you're going

01:02:33.080 | to pay all in cash for a house?

01:02:35.320 | Well, I don't know if I'm going to pay or not, but I will be able to.

01:02:39.920 | And that's my rule.

01:02:42.200 | It's not your rule.

01:02:43.200 | It's not anybody else's rule.

01:02:44.040 | It's the rule that fits me like a handmade glove.

01:02:46.520 | So these rules are not for you, Chris, or for any listener.

01:02:50.120 | These are my rules.

01:02:51.120 | And that's what I want everybody to do is create their own rules.

01:02:54.080 | A couple of others, business class on flights over four hours.

01:02:57.920 | This is just simple.

01:02:59.360 | It just helps me decide, okay, it's going to be three hours and 30 minutes.

01:03:04.040 | It could be business or economy, but if it's four hours and 30 minutes, business.

01:03:08.360 | That's like my rule, which is business class.

01:03:10.960 | If you can find the points available and like middle seat in the back of the

01:03:14.800 | plane and basic economy, if you can.

01:03:16.680 | You know, there's an old phrase that goes, the more successful I became, the less I

01:03:23.320 | could afford to do some of the things I used to do and what that person meant by

01:03:27.880 | that, Jim Rohn was, I used to mow my own lawn, but now when he became much more

01:03:34.080 | financially successful, he realized he would rather spend that time with his kids.

01:03:39.560 | And so I think for you, Chris, one thing is like, yeah, you became a lot more

01:03:43.000 | successful.

01:03:43.520 | You might not be able to afford back row middle seat.

01:03:47.880 | Now, could you?

01:03:49.040 | Yes, you could, of course, but it takes almost that nudging and pushing to say

01:03:54.080 | that's not the kind of life I want to live now.

01:03:57.360 | And I think that's what these rules are about.

01:03:59.680 | A couple more that I want to share, buy the best and keep it as long as possible.

01:04:03.440 | So for example, I have a car that I've had for 16 years now.

01:04:08.200 | I still drive it.

01:04:09.080 | I drove it here.

01:04:09.760 | It's great.

01:04:10.600 | It's a great, nice car.

01:04:12.280 | It's a Honda Accord.

01:04:13.720 | I mean, Indians love Honda Accords, not that important to me.

01:04:17.840 | Right?

01:04:18.640 | So when I say spend extravagantly on the things you love, cut cost mercilessly on

01:04:21.560 | the things you don't, this car works fine.

01:04:23.600 | It runs like brand new.

01:04:24.760 | Cool.

01:04:25.880 | On the other hand, taking my parents, both sides to Italy for this amazing

01:04:31.880 | honeymoon, totally worth it and marry the right person.

01:04:37.560 | So one of the biggest financial decisions and life decisions you

01:04:41.080 | will ever make is who you marry.

01:04:42.320 | Thinking about, are you aligned with them?

01:04:44.880 | Values?

01:04:45.880 | You don't necessarily need to know everything about money in the same way.

01:04:49.880 | You don't have to have the same amount of money, but are you both generally

01:04:54.120 | oriented towards your money values?

01:04:57.360 | I think that is really important.

01:04:58.960 | Chris, these money values and these money rules, the thing about

01:05:02.280 | them is they're not restrictive.

01:05:03.920 | You notice that when people try to create their rules, they're

01:05:06.200 | like never spend money on X, Y, Z.

01:05:09.480 | But with these rules, what I wanted to show you is they're really freeing.

01:05:14.040 | They're permissive.

01:05:15.200 | They actually let me think bigger business class on flights, donate to

01:05:18.960 | my friends, charity, fundraisers, no limit for spending on health.

01:05:23.520 | These are awesome rules.

01:05:25.160 | They fit me like a glove.

01:05:26.560 | And so if you're listening, I would really challenge you create your own 10

01:05:30.560 | money rules or even five and send them over to me, tag me on Instagram or

01:05:34.560 | Twitter, I'd love to see the kind of rules that your listeners come up with.

01:05:38.000 | And you write back.

01:05:38.960 | I read everyone.

01:05:40.240 | I try to write back as much as I can.

01:05:41.880 | But you're not someone who just ignores everything that comes in.

01:05:44.480 | No, no.

01:05:44.920 | I write back to hundreds and hundreds of people every day through email, my

01:05:48.120 | email list, my Instagram, Twitter.

01:05:49.920 | I love it.

01:05:50.680 | I absolutely love hearing from everybody because your rich life is so different

01:05:55.360 | than mine.

01:05:55.840 | And so every day I'm getting exposure.

01:05:58.240 | You know, I have readers, they retire at 36.

01:06:00.720 | They live in a trailer and drive around the country.

01:06:03.240 | That's not my rich life.

01:06:04.520 | But I love hearing when people really hone in.

01:06:07.920 | I want to foster all these pets.

01:06:10.120 | Awesome.

01:06:11.400 | I don't want a single pet, but I love hearing people really dialed into what

01:06:16.120 | they love to do with their money.

01:06:17.440 | I love that we didn't talk about investing, which is something that I

01:06:21.280 | think a lot of people think is the only money thing that matters because as much

01:06:25.800 | as I believe that it's something that matters and if you want to grow your

01:06:29.600 | wealth in the longterm, it's necessary.

01:06:31.680 | It's also not something you need to occupy your entire headspace with.

01:06:34.920 | Yeah, that's a great way to put it.

01:06:36.400 | I mean, I invest, I invest aggressively and I detail all of how I invest in my

01:06:42.040 | book, but I spend less than 10 minutes a month thinking about it.

01:06:48.520 | Investing should not be exciting.

01:06:52.000 | Investing should not be a TNT drama.

01:06:54.840 | Investing should be absolutely boring and mundane, like watching concrete dry.

01:07:01.360 | And a rich life is lived outside of the spreadsheet.

01:07:05.600 | It's not about logging into all your bank accounts and investing accounts.

01:07:09.280 | No, that's all automated.

01:07:11.840 | A rich life is lived outside the spreadsheet.

01:07:14.000 | That is taking your wife on a beautiful vacation.

01:07:17.320 | That is surprising your family with a thoughtful gift or just emptying the

01:07:23.880 | dishwasher.

01:07:24.600 | It doesn't even have to cost money.

01:07:26.360 | A rich life is not about tracking every last dollar and cent, although you should

01:07:30.880 | have the system set up to do that.

01:07:32.480 | It's really about using your money to create that vision of what a rich life is

01:07:40.120 | and then living that now, not just waiting for tomorrow.

01:07:43.680 | Couldn't agree more.

01:07:44.960 | I literally spent the last 18 months trying to focus on automation of finances

01:07:49.440 | to get it to a point that you don't even have to think about it.

01:07:51.880 | So thank you for all the tips, all the tricks, everything you shared.

01:07:56.240 | I really appreciate it.

01:07:57.520 | Where, you mentioned a few times, but where's the best place to find you?

01:08:00.560 | You can find me at iwt.com.

01:08:02.920 | And I have a newsletter there with several hundred thousand people.

01:08:06.400 | I write about money, psychology, business, careers, and many more things.

01:08:11.360 | Instagram and Twitter.

01:08:13.280 | I'm @ramith and you can find me there.

01:08:15.480 | Cool.

01:08:16.120 | Thank you for being here.

01:08:17.080 | Thanks a lot.

01:08:17.640 | Wow.

01:08:19.160 | That was a lot of fun.

01:08:20.360 | Thank you so much for listening.

01:08:22.160 | If you're not already subscribed to the show, please click subscribe so you can

01:08:25.920 | get notified about the amazing episodes we have coming up.

01:08:29.120 | You can find show notes for this episode, links to all the past episodes, and you

01:08:33.400 | can sign up for our newsletter at allthehacks.com.

01:08:36.320 | Also, if you have questions about your own financial life or hacks you're

01:08:40.520 | trying to figure out, please reach out and I'd love to help or even

01:08:44.200 | answer them on an upcoming show.

01:08:45.600 | You can email chris@allthehacks.com or @hutchins on Twitter.

01:08:50.520 | Finally, if you want to help out the show, please consider sharing an episode

01:08:54.840 | online or with your friends or family.

01:08:56.800 | Thank you so much.

01:08:58.160 | Talk to you next week.

01:08:59.960 | Oh, still here?

01:09:01.120 | Remember that conversation about Ramit trying to plan my next trip?

01:09:05.040 | Well, even though I'm actually terrified with what he might

01:09:08.120 | spend, I was totally serious.

01:09:10.160 | So if he's serious too, I'm going to make it happen and I'll let you know where

01:09:14.680 | we end up going and how the trip goes.

01:09:17.720 | I want to tell you about another podcast I love that goes deep on all things money.

01:09:21.960 | That means everything from money hacks to wealth building, to early retirement.

01:09:25.800 | It's called the Personal Finance Podcast, and it's much more about building

01:09:30.000 | generational wealth and spending your money on the things you value than

01:09:33.600 | spending it on the things you don't value.

01:09:35.560 | It's a podcast that's designed to help you get where you want to be.

01:09:38.920 | It's called the Personal Finance Podcast, and it's much more about

01:09:42.440 | building generational wealth and spending your money on the things you

01:09:46.080 | value than it is about clipping coupons to save a dollar it's hosted by my good

01:09:50.640 | friend, Andrew, who truly believes that everyone in this world can build wealth

01:09:54.440 | and his passion and excitement are what make this show so entertaining.

01:09:58.360 | I know because I was a guest on the show in December, 2022.

01:10:02.280 | But recently I listened to an episode where Andrew shared 16 money

01:10:06.480 | stats that will blow your mind.

01:10:08.040 | And it was so crazy to learn things like 35% of millennials are not participating

01:10:12.960 | in their employer's retirement plan.

01:10:14.880 | And that's just one of the many fascinating stats he shared.

01:10:18.240 | The Personal Finance Podcast has something for everyone.

01:10:21.200 | It's filled with so many tips and tactics and hacks to help you get better

01:10:24.840 | with your money and grow your wealth.

01:10:26.440 | So I highly recommend you check it out.

01:10:28.600 | Just search for the Personal Finance Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or

01:10:33.000 | wherever you listen to podcasts and enjoy.