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00:00:00.000 | Hello, and welcome to another episode of All The Hacks, a show about upgrading your life,

00:00:06.160 | money and travel. If you're new here, I'm your host, Chris Hutchins. And one of the

00:00:09.660 | things I love optimizing the most is credit card points and miles. So today I wanted to

00:00:14.280 | invite my good friend and absolute credit card expert Sebastian Fung, better known on

00:00:18.760 | YouTube by his handle AskSevi, to talk about the current state of credit cards, predictions

00:00:23.820 | for next year, some of the recent changes we've been seeing, I'm looking at you Delta,

00:00:28.100 | how to think about signup bonuses versus spending multipliers, how frequently you can open up

00:00:32.040 | cards and a lot more. So let's jump in right after this.

00:00:37.120 | Sebastian, thank you for being here in person. Thank you for having me.

00:00:41.640 | For people who don't know you, I gave a little bit of an intro, but tell me about how you

00:00:44.880 | got into this game.

00:00:45.880 | I kind of started my career in finance, moved into tech, did a bunch of startup stuff, and

00:00:50.240 | then got very obsessed of points, mostly because my player two, Mandy, wanted to travel a ton.

00:00:55.640 | And I was like, how do I do all this stuff without paying an arm and a leg? I think one

00:00:59.820 | big trip that really pushed it was a last minute Japan trip. And we paid something like

00:01:03.860 | 12 or $1,300 for economy. And I'm like, wait, why am I paying so much money for economy?

00:01:08.660 | And then I fell into this whole points rabbit hole. I knew about credit cards before, but

00:01:11.940 | I was always on team cashback back in the day where I was like, oh, just optimize your

00:01:15.580 | categories and that makes the most sense. But then I realized you can get so much more

00:01:18.980 | value from points.

00:01:19.980 | And that actually moves the needle the most compared to cashback. I like cashback. I think

00:01:24.140 | a lot of people can benefit from it, especially if you have a family and you're not traveling

00:01:27.620 | as much or you just don't care about that. But I think especially when you're young,

00:01:31.180 | points drive so much value and just open so many doors.

00:01:34.140 | Is there a type of travel you think is necessary for points to be worth it?

00:01:37.820 | I think it does lean more towards aspirational business and first class type of trips or

00:01:42.540 | more expensive trips. For economy stuff, I still pay out of pocket generally because

00:01:46.560 | the value is not there, or I get okay value like maybe 1.5 to 2 cents per point, but it's

00:01:50.860 | not the astronomical 10 cents per point. So for me, a lot of it is how do I as a P get

00:01:55.980 | the VIP experience and unlock this whole thing that I didn't think I could do.

00:02:00.780 | Growing up pretty lower middle class, I never thought I'd be able to fly business, let alone

00:02:05.140 | first. So the fact that even if it's just for a few hours, see what it's like to be

00:02:08.460 | on the other side and experience that and see these other people who are dropping 20K

00:02:12.740 | on these flights, that's nice.

00:02:14.380 | It feels really good to sit next to someone and be like, how much did you pay? I haven't

00:02:16.980 | actually asked. I don't know if you ever asked, but I've always wanted to ask. How much did

00:02:20.340 | you pay for that?

00:02:21.340 | I've done that in Bora where we were just hanging out and talking to other people. And

00:02:24.740 | then some people were like, oh, I pay 30. And then someone else was like, oh, you guys

00:02:28.020 | are losers. We did it through Costco and we paid 25,000. And I was like, oh, I didn't

00:02:32.340 | pay that much money at all. But it went first or bubble.

00:02:34.540 | I know, but you kind of did just to open them. But next time, here's the tricks.

00:02:38.420 | A lot of people like the idea of points, but it's one of those things that you keep in

00:02:41.640 | mind, but you never really act on it. A lot of people will be like, oh, we can get a lot

00:02:45.180 | of value. That's nice, whatever. So it is tough to make that switch. And like that first

00:02:49.060 | step is always harder.

00:02:50.560 | So I want to come back to these aspirational trips at the end. But first, I feel like there

00:02:55.340 | are very few people that are as in tune with everything that's going on with the points,

00:02:59.340 | miles, status world. I wanted to just bring up the topic of where we're at right now.

00:03:03.980 | We're recording this in September 2023. Delta has just told everyone that loves flying Delta

00:03:09.540 | that it's going to be a lot harder to get status unless you spend a ridiculous amount

00:03:13.060 | of money. By this point, we probably already will have covered the major news there. But

00:03:17.460 | at the high level, status is changing and it has on other airlines over the past few

00:03:21.820 | years.

00:03:22.820 | Where do you feel like things are in the world of points and miles? What's happening now?

00:03:26.420 | So I feel like most of the airlines have told people either intentionally or unintentionally

00:03:30.620 | that they actually don't care if you fly them a lot. They care more so how much money you

00:03:34.540 | spend with them. So even if you look at your net, it's changed from the old system to the

00:03:38.360 | current one. It's very much contingent on you spending either a crap ton of money on

00:03:42.140 | your credit cards or flying a lot of them.

00:03:44.060 | It's not even economy flying. They do want premium last minute business class type flying

00:03:48.340 | where you might be going to the airport and paying $1,000 for like SFO to LAX. So Delta

00:03:52.460 | is kind of in that same realm. They have simplified the whole process a lot more, but it's still

00:03:57.000 | very much targeted towards businesses. Even back in the day, you could get two Delta Reserve

00:04:00.460 | cards. Spending your way there was about $240K, but it was complicated. You were learning

00:04:04.300 | about MQT waivers, MQM boosts and stuff like that. And now it's like just spend $400K and

00:04:09.140 | you get status or $350K. A lot of money for most businesses.

00:04:12.500 | Do you care about status? At least let's start with airlines. Is that something you're even

00:04:16.100 | trying to get anymore?

00:04:17.380 | So I think a lot of people rightfully don't like status for a lot of good reasons because

00:04:22.580 | they don't get upgrades. So back in the day, we were chasing United status. And then I

00:04:26.060 | think the most we ever got up to was Platinum. And then we realized that out of SFO because

00:04:31.060 | 43 or 50% of people flying through SFO are United. So you're never going to get upgraded

00:04:36.160 | because there's too many people that have 1K and global services that you can chase

00:04:40.500 | it, but it's not going to help you as much as you think it is. So you pretty much want

00:04:43.820 | to get status with the second or third busiest airline from that airport. And for us, SFO,

00:04:49.020 | it was Delta. And then if you're in Atlanta, obviously, you wouldn't want Delta because

00:04:52.620 | there's too many Delta elite members and people who like just have unlimited corporate account

00:04:56.740 | money.

00:04:57.740 | So for us, we got Delta status. We liked it a lot because we were getting upgraded for

00:05:01.120 | our cross-country flights. We also fly during weird times. So that kind of helps. But being

00:05:05.180 | able to get a decent business class seat for five or six hours is nice.

00:05:09.500 | With the new change, I think we're kind of on the fence about how to play it. So next

00:05:13.740 | year, we're still going to be Delta Diamond. The year after that, I think unless we have

00:05:17.820 | some weird astronomical business spend, it just doesn't make sense. And then even then

00:05:21.700 | it's like, well, there's an opportunity cost of should I spend all this money on this card

00:05:24.700 | when I can just use a Citi Double Cash or a lot of other cards where you get more value,

00:05:28.820 | right? We might chase American status mostly because the spend amount seems pretty reasonable

00:05:33.660 | for the level that we want.

00:05:34.900 | And then for that level, pretty much the one below eXp, so I think it's Platinum Pro, that

00:05:39.580 | one gets you One World Emerald status, which gets you into first class lounges when you're

00:05:43.180 | flying abroad. So we go to Hong Kong like three to four times a year. And if I can scroll

00:05:47.460 | up into the Cafe Pacific first class lounge while flying Economy or Premium Economy, that's

00:05:51.900 | not bad at all.

00:05:52.900 | No, it's funny. My adventures with status started with let's try to chase the highest

00:05:57.260 | status on United because we lived in San Francisco. And then it was, well, we're really only taking

00:06:02.060 | short haul trips where I just don't care, or really long haul trips where we're using

00:06:05.940 | our points. Forget it, no status. So for the last four or five years, no status.

00:06:10.900 | And the one place where it started to bite us back was now we have two kids and we have

00:06:15.140 | an au pair. And sometimes we're traveling with five people, four seats. And the reality,

00:06:19.260 | we just did a trip with no check bags. But the reality is when you're traveling with

00:06:21.940 | four or five people with a bunch of kids, you got to check bags. And it was just an

00:06:25.780 | added fee. So it was like, do I want to get a credit card to cover the cost? Or there

00:06:29.500 | was a challenge for United, which was just in reach. It was spend $1,200 in three or

00:06:34.060 | four months on United. And we had a couple trips planned. So I went for it.

00:06:37.500 | And now I'm worried that I'm kind of getting caught up in this. For anyone listening who

00:06:40.540 | knows United status, silver basically is free check bags. Economy plus it check in if it

00:06:44.860 | happens to be available. So it's not special, but I'm finally back on that train. And now

00:06:49.100 | I find myself doing what I wanted to not do, which was I just want to take the easiest,

00:06:53.380 | most convenient flight.

00:06:54.380 | Now I find myself like, "Ooh, can I take the United flight? Because I'm going to get free

00:06:57.060 | check bags."

00:06:58.060 | I'll just get a credit card then. I feel like that makes so much more sense. You get all

00:07:00.980 | the perks of silver or even gold status.

00:07:03.420 | I think it's because I had a United card for so long. And then I just forgot to put a transaction

00:07:07.740 | on it and they closed it. And I was like, "Ugh, do I have to really go back and get

00:07:11.140 | another new United card?"

00:07:12.700 | It's another intro bonus.

00:07:14.160 | So we'll come to that. But it seemed like it fit in. So I did it. We're going to get

00:07:17.060 | some free checked bags out of it. But at the end of the day, the credit card can give you

00:07:20.420 | the low tier of status, which is like check bags. You're probably not going to get preferred

00:07:23.540 | seats with any cards.

00:07:25.860 | But with the United cards, Delta does get you upgrades, even if you don't have status,

00:07:30.140 | but you're not going to get business or first. And even first is domestic first, which isn't

00:07:33.500 | that exciting, but you'll probably get a premium comfort plus equivalent.

00:07:36.600 | So I'll probably play the cards through that. What about hotels? We don't talk a lot about

00:07:40.020 | hotel status. It feels like in the points and miles world, it's Hyatt, Globalist, or

00:07:43.740 | forget it.

00:07:44.740 | I think a big part of it too is because airline status is so hard to get with credit cards

00:07:49.380 | while a hotel status is given out willy nilly. So you have all these cards that give you

00:07:52.820 | either mid level or even higher level status. Hilton Diamond being one of the prime examples,

00:07:57.660 | right? You're getting a top level status by getting a credit card that runs you 450. And

00:08:01.300 | then I would argue that the card actually is a net positive because of all the credits

00:08:05.000 | and the free night. So you have all these people that have status because the math makes

00:08:09.220 | sense and people that watch YouTube are like, Oh, yeah, if you run the numbers, it's logical.

00:08:13.400 | So I think the reason people like Hyatt is because that's the one you actually had to

00:08:16.920 | chase and had to do, meaning that there's less people that have it, meaning that it's

00:08:20.780 | more beneficial because upgrades actually come to you if you have like 10,000 people

00:08:24.340 | that have status compared to 1000 that's up, especially in the US. Internationally, though,

00:08:28.680 | it doesn't really matter because everyone else doesn't have status. So we'll go to Southeast

00:08:32.540 | Asia like Da Nang or something. And they'll be like, Oh, thank you for being diamond and

00:08:36.060 | for your two stays this year. And I was like, Yeah, thank you for having me because they

00:08:39.520 | don't see that many business travelers and their credit cards don't come with status

00:08:42.820 | like ours do.

00:08:43.820 | We've had that experience in Southeast Asia also with Marriott or the former Starwood.

00:08:48.620 | Any status was great. And I think Marriott, you can also get platinum with one card.

00:08:53.300 | Marriott, you can get it with the Bonvoy Brilliant now before you had to spend 75k to get it.

00:08:57.820 | And yeah, now you get it, which I think is good because a lot of hotels can be free breakfast

00:09:01.020 | as well and then upgrades up to like standard suites.

00:09:03.700 | Is there a hotel chain that if you were building loyalty, is it Hyatt? I found recently on

00:09:08.020 | Hilton when I dug into the terms, even if there's a nice room, they don't have to give

00:09:11.920 | it to you.

00:09:12.920 | I think a lot of Hilton's are annoying in that way because they'll lean into the terms

00:09:16.260 | and then it depends on who owns the hotel and their upgrade policies, but they lean

00:09:19.940 | very literally on the can give you an upgrade versus a will give you an upgrade.

00:09:23.740 | But theoretically, it just depends on the person.

00:09:26.420 | And then sometimes if you're nicer to them, I find that they are more likely to give you

00:09:30.380 | upgrades.

00:09:31.380 | In the US, they just don't.

00:09:32.540 | Sometimes I'll open up the app and be like, Hey, there is a junior suite available.

00:09:35.500 | There's three of them tonight.

00:09:36.980 | Can I get upgraded to this?

00:09:37.980 | It's like, Oh, it's not available in my system.

00:09:39.780 | I get that they maybe have sales quotas, but still, it's annoying on that end.

00:09:43.060 | Are there any chains where you feel like you haven't had that problem?

00:09:46.020 | Because I imagine you probably have hotel status on all of the chains.

00:09:48.940 | I feel like Hyatt is one of the best ones for that.

00:09:51.660 | That's why I like Hyatt, but their footprint so much smaller.

00:09:53.980 | IHG is probably the worst with it, where even if you have like ambassador or like the top

00:09:58.540 | level status, they'll try to upsell you.

00:10:00.440 | We stayed at an intercontinental and it was empty.

00:10:02.620 | It was during Christmas in Houston, and they were just trying to upsell us rooms.

00:10:06.620 | We're like, Oh, can we get a tour of it?

00:10:07.900 | And I was filming the room.

00:10:08.900 | So I'm like, still got a free review of the room out of it.

00:10:11.100 | But then it's like, yeah, that'll be an extra 200.

00:10:12.940 | Isn't this nice?

00:10:13.940 | I'm like, I think our hotel is not that busy.

00:10:15.100 | It's Christmas Eve.

00:10:16.100 | Why are you trying to upsell me?

00:10:17.900 | And so if we look ahead, because I feel like you have a pretty good sense of this, we'll

00:10:21.140 | start with status and then we'll move into credit cards.

00:10:23.180 | But where do you think 2024?

00:10:24.180 | What are we going to see?

00:10:25.180 | Are we going to see lots of big changes to programs?

00:10:27.340 | Do you think they've all made their changes recently, focusing airlines on spend and hotels,

00:10:31.900 | I guess, haven't really made too many changes?

00:10:33.660 | Is anything changing?

00:10:35.180 | American can be really smart here.

00:10:37.300 | And they could actually even do campaigns where they bring TELTA people over and convert

00:10:40.660 | them really well.

00:10:41.700 | So I think they should do that, but they're not doing it.

00:10:44.020 | United's in a good spot where they're like, we don't really care.

00:10:46.700 | I wonder if Delta will backstep the decision, but I feel like they won't.

00:10:49.980 | So some people pointed to the fact that like they did make some changes because people

00:10:53.080 | complain and petitioned and that it took two years or something.

00:10:55.780 | But I'm like, is it really worth your effort doing it?

00:10:58.480 | Number one.

00:10:59.480 | And number two, even if they do make a change, it's probably still going to be like a mid

00:11:03.180 | step where it's just not going to be good for you anyways.

00:11:06.040 | So I think there are a lot of people pushing for change and telling people to call the

00:11:08.600 | board of directors.

00:11:09.700 | But it feels like a fiduciary move.

00:11:11.260 | They made a decision that makes sense for the company.

00:11:13.060 | I've heard the argument that Delta has the best product, like the best hard product on

00:11:17.520 | the plane, seats, service, amenities, everything.

00:11:20.240 | And so they can kind of afford to do this, because if you live in Atlanta, are you really

00:11:23.340 | going to change what you do?

00:11:24.800 | And then American doesn't have the best product.

00:11:27.180 | And so they're like, we're going to make our program work for anyone.

00:11:30.540 | And Delta is kind of like, look, we're really good.

00:11:32.440 | We don't need as easy of a program and it might work.

00:11:36.300 | And I think it will actually attract the people they want, because even if in the diamond

00:11:40.140 | rings, there are a lot of people that have status.

00:11:42.500 | So by moving the bar higher up, that means there's less diamonds, but probably more people

00:11:46.260 | that are higher off with businesses that spend more money that want to buy these tickets

00:11:50.220 | who spend a lot on their credit cards.

00:11:51.620 | So it kind of just works out for them where they have a better experience within the diamond

00:11:55.380 | ring.

00:11:56.380 | So not everyone here is focused on status on hotels or airlines, but I think a lot of

00:12:00.020 | people here are focused on credit cards.

00:12:01.700 | What do you think is changing?

00:12:02.940 | The only big changes recently, and I say big, like if I look back over 2023, I don't feel

00:12:08.500 | like there was a lot that changed in the credit card game.

00:12:11.040 | But what do you think?

00:12:12.040 | I think it's mostly the Venture X coming into the ecosystem and then disrupting everything.

00:12:15.660 | And now the Venture X business kind of disrupting on the business side.

00:12:18.540 | I would argue that even that card is actually the best business card out there.

00:12:22.220 | If you can use the credits and points and stuff, I think we probably at some point we'll

00:12:26.300 | see a bit more devaluation over there because it's kind of the Chase Sapphire Reserve strategy

00:12:29.940 | where you come in, break down doors, but then you have to take a few steps back afterwards

00:12:33.340 | and either increase the annual fee or decrease in benefits after you get the market share.

00:12:36.980 | I think Citi is the big question mark that a lot of people have because they got rid

00:12:40.820 | of the prestige card and they haven't really been in this travel ecosystem.

00:12:44.520 | For a long time, they were actually in first place and the Platinum pushed past it.

00:12:47.480 | I think back in like 2017, all the consultants had the Citi prestige because it was like

00:12:52.060 | an amazing card where they had this fourth night free perk.

00:12:54.560 | And if you were traveling for four nights every week, you would actually just get a

00:12:57.480 | ton of statement credits and kind of free money through your credit card.

00:13:00.660 | So the question is whether they're going to try to come back into the top three or whether

00:13:04.100 | they'll try to go for the top again and how they play that.

00:13:06.740 | It seems like Citi has, there's rumors that a new card is coming.

00:13:09.900 | Yeah.

00:13:10.900 | The Strata Elite and Strata.

00:13:11.900 | Yeah.

00:13:12.900 | But we don't know what it is.

00:13:13.900 | We have no clue what it looks like or what it's going to do or whether it's going to

00:13:17.020 | be competitive.

00:13:18.020 | For all we know, they could come into the ecosystem and then if it's just like the luxury

00:13:21.280 | black card that is expensive but isn't good, then it's going to lose.

00:13:24.940 | I've heard someone make very, very edge cases for Citi points, but if you already have some

00:13:29.820 | Amex points or Chase and Capital One, adding Citi doesn't get you many new options other

00:13:34.860 | than I think Eva Air.

00:13:36.100 | And then Eva Air is not even that good of an option.

00:13:38.460 | No.

00:13:39.460 | In that case, go get a Citi card so you get some points.

00:13:41.320 | I just think that was the only one that stood out as the unique option.

00:13:44.780 | I'm at Flowny Bear.

00:13:45.780 | Business class on Eva is great.

00:13:47.020 | Even economy is great.

00:13:48.020 | They're just very friendly.

00:13:49.020 | And I think they make some of their space available just to their program.

00:13:52.340 | So maybe that's a Citi point benefit.

00:13:54.580 | I think for most people, the reason they go for Citi is because you've depleted all your

00:13:57.980 | Chase options and then Amex is once in a lifetime and then it's easy to deplete those options

00:14:02.340 | as well because there's only so many MR earning cards and then you do Capital One generally

00:14:06.100 | early on.

00:14:07.100 | So I think Citi is that next logical step and the fact that they do have some pretty

00:14:10.460 | good cards of catch all options as multipliers, double cash being the good 2x equivalent.

00:14:15.420 | And then the Citi Premier is also surprisingly good as a workhorse because it earns 3x on

00:14:19.860 | so many categories.

00:14:20.860 | Gas is a big one that a lot of other banks just don't focus on or they know that it's

00:14:24.420 | going to be a money loser, so they just don't really focus on it at all.

00:14:27.620 | And the fact that Citi Premier earns a 3x on it and it's uncapped is pretty good.

00:14:31.340 | For any cards we talk about, if you go to all the hacks.com/cards, you can find the

00:14:34.740 | links for all the cards we're talking about except Citi.

00:14:37.140 | We don't have any partners there, but you do.

00:14:38.820 | So if anyone here wants to get any of the cards that we're talking about, obviously

00:14:41.740 | support me, but also if it's a Citi card, I'll send them your way.

00:14:45.940 | Askseby.com.

00:14:46.940 | Again, Askseby.com.

00:14:47.940 | A-S-K-S-E-B-Y.com.

00:14:48.940 | We'll put the link to that in the show notes.

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00:16:15.900 | From spotting expenses that you definitely need to cut, to being able to better forecast

00:16:19.860 | your net worth, or even just being able to ask yourself whether you're really aligning

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00:17:03.620 | Thanks to Copilot, I've never had a better grasp on my spending and cashflow, which by

00:17:08.100 | the way also means I can leave less money in our checking account and more somewhere

00:17:11.740 | else where it earns a lot more interest.

00:17:14.220 | So for the best app to track your spending, subscription, and investments, go to allthehacks.com/copilot

00:17:20.740 | to download Copilot and use code HACKS2 during onboarding for a two-month free trial.

00:17:26.500 | Again, that's allthehacks.com/copilot and the code HACKS2 for a free two-month trial

00:17:32.500 | of my favorite personal finance app.

00:17:35.580 | And what do you think is coming?

00:17:36.580 | Venturex was a big thing.

00:17:37.580 | I think we have two of them in our house.

00:17:39.500 | Venturex business, I'm torn on.

00:17:40.900 | It's a massive signup bonus, I think it's 150,000, but you have to spend 30 grand in

00:17:44.820 | three months.

00:17:45.820 | But I already have the Spark Cash Plus.

00:17:48.380 | Pretty much equivalent, but I would argue that the annual fee there is a bit higher

00:17:51.740 | because you don't have that many credits offsetting it.

00:17:54.220 | There's one, if you spend 100k or 150k, you get 100 back or something, or 150 back.

00:17:58.740 | I don't know if I put that much on it.

00:18:00.180 | But basically there's nothing to help you offset it while the Venturex business has

00:18:03.580 | the same $300 and 10,000 points.

00:18:05.740 | So for me, that's already like, okay, that covers annual fee more or less, or you get

00:18:09.260 | $5 in value.

00:18:10.260 | So that's cheaper on a net basis.

00:18:12.580 | And then you also have a priority pass card that works for restaurants.

00:18:16.020 | So if you don't want to run Chase Sapphire Preserve or JP Morgan Reserve, then that's

00:18:20.060 | an option.

00:18:21.060 | And does the Venturex not?

00:18:22.660 | The Venturex one works for only lounges.

00:18:25.940 | But the business is restaurants?

00:18:26.940 | The business as a filming works for restaurants as well.

00:18:29.700 | Oh, interesting.

00:18:30.700 | I didn't know that.

00:18:31.700 | And then I think one of the other big changes was Amex pulling back on Delta lounges.

00:18:35.940 | And was it this year where they also cut back on guest policies?

00:18:38.460 | Yes.

00:18:39.460 | I think that would be another big change.

00:18:40.700 | So I think for them, they're just trying to figure out how to make the lounge experience

00:18:44.060 | better because if you have to wait 30 minutes to one hour to go into the lounge, then it's

00:18:47.820 | a lose-lose for them because people start canceling cards, people post on social media

00:18:51.380 | that the line sucks and that this is terrible.

00:18:53.620 | So how do you make it accessible to people, but also make it a good experience?

00:18:57.860 | They've toyed around with increasing the annual fee.

00:19:00.860 | And I think that is something that we're probably bound to see in 2025.

00:19:03.940 | But then the platinum has done so well in the last two years because people have started

00:19:08.380 | doing the math and realized that it makes sense.

00:19:10.660 | The platinum numbers have doubled in the last four or five years, which is a lot of people.

00:19:13.940 | And then the lounges have not kept up to that.

00:19:16.060 | And then also a lot more people are traveling now.

00:19:17.820 | There's also younger people who might be getting it because of the perks or the flex on people

00:19:22.100 | and stuff.

00:19:23.100 | So it's just a lot of people have the cards and the lounge side has not kept up.

00:19:26.960 | So aside from lounge changes, what do you think happens with cards next year, any year

00:19:30.900 | from now when we're catching up?

00:19:32.220 | What is going to be the Venture X thing we talked about?

00:19:34.420 | I think a lot of people don't like high annual fees for exchange of credits, but I think

00:19:40.180 | that's the most logical move for issuers and everyone.

00:19:43.180 | It feels like the most win.

00:19:44.220 | What I mean by that is, let's say you have a card that has an 850 annual fee, but you

00:19:47.540 | have like 1200 in credits.

00:19:49.220 | So some people hate that because they're like, well, I can't use all these credits because

00:19:52.660 | we're conditioned to want to maximize everything.

00:19:55.100 | But the goal is necessarily to use every single credit to get enough value that you maybe

00:19:58.780 | break even for the credit card.

00:20:00.100 | So all the other perks and the multipliers of the card end up just being value on top

00:20:03.540 | positive expected value from it.

00:20:05.100 | So I think we're going to see more of that.

00:20:06.880 | Probably Citi's going to push that, but I think that's the most logical move because

00:20:10.380 | issuers make money, they probably have a bit more room to give you better multipliers too.

00:20:14.580 | And then for the people that would benefit from those credits, it's also a win because

00:20:19.380 | you might come out ahead for the platinum card.

00:20:21.180 | If you live in certain cities, if you don't use certain products, you might actually be

00:20:24.820 | losing money or you might be paying that two or three hundred dollars in order to get the

00:20:28.140 | card for lounge access and other perks.

00:20:30.020 | But there are people that live in New York and the Bay Area who already pay for Equinox

00:20:33.540 | where they come out ahead.

00:20:34.540 | They're like, wait, I use all of these services.

00:20:36.620 | I use Uber.

00:20:37.620 | I use Equinox.

00:20:38.620 | I swap at Saks enough that I can use the credit.

00:20:40.820 | I think we're going to see more of that, which might end up pissing some people off, but

00:20:44.540 | it's probably a net positive move.

00:20:45.940 | I wish I used Equinox so that I could get the value.

00:20:48.060 | I'm pretty confident that just starting to use Equinox is going to not be a net savings.

00:20:52.340 | So one tactic you can actually do is if you have a friend that uses Equinox, you could

00:20:57.100 | just let them swap your card in for a month and they'll use up the credit and then they

00:21:01.220 | can just treat you to dinner or something.

00:21:02.660 | That's what kind of I'm doing right now.

00:21:04.020 | I have a lot of platinum cards and then I'm just like, hey, I'm free.

00:21:07.360 | You pay for Equinox already anyways.

00:21:09.520 | I have these eight platinum cards.

00:21:11.340 | You want to swap them in every single month, they use up the credit and then you can pay

00:21:14.220 | for sushi.

00:21:15.220 | I'm just going to stand outside of the Equinox in the Bay Area.

00:21:17.980 | So it's a portal every month.

00:21:18.980 | So it's easier.

00:21:19.980 | And I feel like there's bound to be a lot of tech people, you know, that have it, but

00:21:22.820 | it's just a weird conversation.

00:21:24.380 | Probably not worth the brain cells if I only have one.

00:21:26.780 | So if I had eight, maybe it would be worth finding that person.

00:21:29.740 | What do you think happens on the earning side?

00:21:31.020 | I know there was a big scare, I guess, when we thought this legislation was going to pass

00:21:35.220 | and cause all these challenges.

00:21:36.220 | It looks like it's not.

00:21:37.400 | Do you think credit card companies in the next year, do you think that comes back?

00:21:40.100 | Do you think we'd see legislation to try to limit the interchange that card companies

00:21:44.300 | can make?

00:21:45.300 | I think people are still going to try to push for it, whether it goes through or not.

00:21:48.220 | It's the big question.

00:21:49.220 | If it does go through, I think it actually kind of destroys their credit card space in

00:21:52.220 | a lot of ways.

00:21:53.220 | I think in the short term, we will see issuers just keep doing the same thing and maybe increasing

00:21:57.940 | the multipliers.

00:21:58.940 | It's really hard to do the opposite.

00:22:00.260 | If someone told you we're going from 4X to 3X, that's going to piss off so many people

00:22:04.780 | and get so much churn from it that you're probably better off keeping the numbers and

00:22:07.760 | then trying to make money back somewhere else, whether that's decreasing perks or increasing

00:22:11.660 | annual fees.

00:22:12.660 | Because I think people are used to that cycle of upgrades.

00:22:15.020 | And then you can always argue inflation like, "Hey, technically 250 two years ago is now

00:22:19.140 | like 350 or 300."

00:22:20.500 | I think one of the hardest parts for cards is all the transfer ratios for the most part

00:22:24.700 | are all one-to-one and seem so simple to keep it one-to-one that they can't really pull

00:22:28.700 | that lever easily.

00:22:29.700 | So they can pull perks.

00:22:30.700 | Do you think we'll ever see cards where it's like here are four perks, you get to pick

00:22:33.540 | two of them?

00:22:34.540 | I kind of wish Citi would do that or any other issuer.

00:22:36.780 | I think that's an interesting play and gamifies it a lot more.

00:22:39.140 | But I'm not sure if the normal card user that's not a super user would like that because it

00:22:44.140 | might sound too confusing.

00:22:45.140 | But I think it's cool.

00:22:46.140 | I think right now you probably have at least eight priority pass memberships and you don't

00:22:50.060 | need them.

00:22:51.060 | No, not at all.

00:22:52.060 | I could use even a $50 credit or something per year.

00:22:54.300 | That would be nice.

00:22:55.300 | Or maybe a $50 credit for something else, Barry's Bootcamp or something.

00:22:58.620 | So I think that would be cool.

00:22:59.980 | It just brings up a different conversation now.

00:23:02.460 | Because for the Platinum, the whole draw is that, "Oh, I can get $1,400 in value.

00:23:07.100 | I might not, but I can."

00:23:08.780 | So there's that potential of getting outsized value.

00:23:10.980 | And they love to market that.

00:23:12.220 | Yes.

00:23:13.220 | Even for my calculations and stuff, I'm like, "You need to knock it down for your own case."

00:23:16.540 | We have calculators on AskSebi.com for this.

00:23:18.660 | I think the moment you're like, "Okay, cool.

00:23:20.340 | That's a 900 annual fee, but you have 800 credits, but you have to pick the ones."

00:23:24.140 | It ends up not being the best for the company or for people that are signing up.

00:23:28.180 | It's only good for us.

00:23:29.180 | And I'm pretty sure they're not optimizing for us.

00:23:31.140 | Yes.

00:23:32.140 | So do credit card companies like power users because they tell their friends and their

00:23:35.780 | friends aren't?

00:23:36.780 | Or do they secretly wish that they could put a red flag on all of our accounts and close

00:23:40.100 | us all down?

00:23:41.100 | I think we represent such a small number that they probably don't care.

00:23:45.220 | I think it's reminiscent of the casinos where there's people that count cards, right?

00:23:49.420 | You actually want people to think that they can go in and count cards and movies like

00:23:52.940 | that to propagate.

00:23:53.940 | The average person, even if they mentally can do it, they're not going to spend the

00:23:56.660 | time to learn how to do it or they'll think about how to do the process.

00:23:59.780 | So by having this whole thing like, "Oh, you can get money, but maybe they don't do enough

00:24:03.060 | research," then they end up losing.

00:24:04.860 | But the people that watch videos and read blogs are probably already a lot ahead of

00:24:08.500 | everyone else.

00:24:09.500 | We talked about how you have eight platinum cards, which is a little crazy.

00:24:11.740 | And I think one of the things that people often miss about the game is we get so caught

00:24:16.820 | up in, "Well, which card is going to give me the most number of points for how I spend

00:24:20.860 | my money?"

00:24:21.860 | And don't get me wrong, I've created a tool where people can actually go in and put their

00:24:24.300 | spend in and figure out the right optimal use of cards because at the end of the day,

00:24:27.540 | no one wants to leave points on the table.

00:24:29.060 | However, when I think about it and I just start doing the math, even with the best card,

00:24:32.900 | if you could have a 5X points on everything card and your return was 5X, welcome bonuses

00:24:37.220 | seem to be better than that almost always.

00:24:39.700 | Is there an argument that all you should be ever chasing is welcome bonuses and you should

00:24:43.620 | not be focused on any multipliers and bonuses?

00:24:46.580 | So I think it's interesting where a lot of people who spend less money focus more on

00:24:51.460 | multipliers when they should be focusing on intro bonuses because that drives more money.

00:24:55.660 | If you're spending only $500 a month, getting $200 back for that $500 just makes a lot more

00:24:59.860 | sense and you can actually repeat that so many times because there's so many cards.

00:25:03.060 | 5% on $500 is not material at all.

00:25:05.740 | So ironically, the people that should be focused on multipliers are the high spenders, the

00:25:10.180 | ones that are spending $5,000 or $10,000 a month eating out.

00:25:13.140 | I think some people look at that and be like, "That's absurd.

00:25:15.100 | Who does that?"

00:25:16.100 | But there are people that spend a ton of money.

00:25:17.340 | For those people, the multipliers start to matter a lot more because that's already 25,000

00:25:21.300 | points in one month, potentially, depending on the card.

00:25:23.420 | So for most people, especially when you're starting out, focus on intro bonuses.

00:25:27.180 | That drives the needle.

00:25:28.180 | That's like 20% return on spend to 40% depending on the card.

00:25:31.420 | But I think once you ramp up, once you have a business, at some point, just run out of

00:25:35.700 | bonuses.

00:25:36.700 | If you have a business that runs a lot of Facebook ads and you're spending $200K a month,

00:25:39.580 | there's not enough intro bonuses for you to go for.

00:25:41.600 | So you do start to focus on multipliers or maybe getting hotel status or airline status

00:25:45.640 | with that spend.

00:25:46.820 | But if you're someone who has dabbled, you've opened two or three cards, and maybe you're

00:25:50.740 | spending, I don't know, five, seven grand a month.

00:25:53.300 | So you're kind of on that high end, but you haven't opened up a ton of cards.

00:25:56.420 | Even if you're a high spender, if you've only opened up a few cards in your time, it probably

00:26:00.260 | makes sense to focus on intro bonuses.

00:26:02.540 | I think so.

00:26:03.540 | I think you can argue that one a lot more because you're in that weird mid spot.

00:26:06.880 | But for me, intro bonuses, especially travel ones, just drive so much value.

00:26:10.340 | Would you rather spend maybe three or four months of spending to get the same bonus or

00:26:14.540 | maybe one month?

00:26:15.540 | And especially if you are trying to time towards a honeymoon or any other big endeavor where

00:26:18.960 | you need a lot of points, it just makes more sense.

00:26:21.020 | So to me, I think intro bonuses are the focus, especially when you're young and you have

00:26:26.440 | time to manage stuff anyways.

00:26:27.660 | If you have kids, then obviously maybe that's not worth your time.

00:26:30.860 | I would push back and say, if you're going to spend the time to figure out what card

00:26:34.000 | earns the most points, you'd probably be better off just getting another card unless you've

00:26:37.420 | played the game so heavily that you're out of cards, which you probably are.

00:26:41.700 | So my view is you should probably work your way to like 10, 20, or like 50 cards.

00:26:46.620 | But obviously, that's not everyone and I want to be cognizant that like some people do have

00:26:50.400 | like lives.

00:26:51.400 | I like researching stuff.

00:26:52.920 | On a Friday night, I think we'll watch Netflix, hang out, have dinner.

00:26:55.760 | But then at night, I'm randomly researching stuff and going down rabbit holes.

00:26:58.840 | Sometimes it's not credit card related.

00:27:00.120 | Sometimes it's like travel.

00:27:01.120 | Sometimes it's something completely different, like mechanical keyboards.

00:27:03.240 | I like researching stuff.

00:27:04.640 | I enjoy learning.

00:27:05.640 | But I know some people who are like, "No, I'd rather be spending more time with my kids

00:27:09.360 | or partying or clubbing or whatever else."

00:27:11.360 | So I think it just depends on you.

00:27:12.920 | So you just said potentially 50.

00:27:14.560 | Let's pretend someone listening is like, "Whoa, I was doing this game wrong."

00:27:17.700 | So one, I've noticed from people that have published, "Here's me opening up a high velocity

00:27:21.940 | of cards over a short period of time."

00:27:23.620 | The impact on your credit is surprisingly positive.

00:27:25.700 | So I think that was a misconception a lot of people have is, "Oh, if I opened up five,

00:27:29.060 | six, seven, eight cards in a year, it would destroy my credit."

00:27:31.940 | I'm pretty sure my experience from people that have reported it and from the few times

00:27:36.060 | where I did that is that the exact opposite is true.

00:27:38.660 | Is that what you've seen?

00:27:39.660 | For the most part, yes.

00:27:40.660 | I think short term, you might see a dip.

00:27:42.420 | And then especially if you're a student, you'll see a bigger dip, and I think that's when

00:27:45.660 | they get spooked by it.

00:27:46.660 | But I think especially if you're in the 25 to 30, and especially later on range, where

00:27:50.420 | you already have these older cards anyways to be your anchor and your foundation, the

00:27:54.280 | impact is so minimal.

00:27:55.280 | And unless you're shopping for a mortgage or something like that, it doesn't really

00:27:58.380 | matter.

00:27:59.380 | "Oh no, my credit score dropped from 800 to 750."

00:28:02.460 | And a 50 point drop like that would not be one card.

00:28:05.140 | That would be over a series?

00:28:06.700 | That'd probably be over a series unless you had a very thin file, like if you only had

00:28:10.300 | like one card, and then this is your second card, then yeah, you might see a 50 point

00:28:14.060 | drop.

00:28:15.060 | And so how would you think about that sequence?

00:28:16.140 | If you were someone that's like, "Okay, let's get a card a quarter this year."

00:28:19.260 | I think earlier you referenced Capital One might be early.

00:28:22.220 | Is there a high level version of how you would think about where to start?

00:28:25.580 | I generally think of it as stages.

00:28:27.500 | So Chase being the first off set of stuff because of Chase 524 and how they limit cards.

00:28:32.940 | And then also their business cards are pretty lucrative and you can get a lot of them while

00:28:37.220 | you're under 524.

00:28:38.600 | And we've talked about this at length just for anyone who's new to 524.

00:28:42.180 | When Chase looks to approve you for a card, and it's not a published rule, but everyone

00:28:45.360 | has seen it work.

00:28:46.420 | If you open more than five cards in the last 24 months across all issuers on your personal

00:28:51.140 | report, they're going to stop you.

00:28:52.620 | So if you've opened five and you try to open a business card, they're going to say no.

00:28:57.020 | But if you open a business card, it doesn't show up on your personal report on Chase.

00:29:00.740 | And so you could open up five business cards and then open up a personal card and be okay

00:29:04.980 | because the business card is not going to show up from Chase.

00:29:06.980 | It will from Capital One.

00:29:08.340 | Yes.

00:29:09.340 | And some other issuers, but most issuers don't.

00:29:11.460 | And then once you're at 424, you go down the ink list, especially if you have an EIN and

00:29:15.460 | different options there.

00:29:17.060 | You can technically get a lot of ink bonuses from each of your businesses.

00:29:20.700 | You have a whole business channel on YouTube that I bet people can go deep down a rabbit

00:29:23.980 | hole.

00:29:24.980 | Ask Subby Business.

00:29:25.980 | And so I think a lot of people would be surprised that they probably do something in their life

00:29:29.940 | that would qualify them for a business card, even if they're not running a business with

00:29:33.700 | employees.

00:29:34.700 | So that's definitely something to look at.

00:29:35.980 | So Chase is kind of where you start because of their kind of application rules.

00:29:39.240 | So application rules and also number of intro bonuses and then the value of intro bonuses.

00:29:43.460 | And then the fact that a lot of their cards have downgrade paths and a no annual fee options.

00:29:46.980 | And also a lot of the ones that don't are just keeper cards.

00:29:49.340 | So ones where you get value every year by keeping it hotel cards being one of the best

00:29:52.700 | examples of this.

00:29:53.840 | After that, I would do Capital One mostly because they can be pretty hard to get approved

00:29:57.440 | for if you have very high velocity and you have a lot of cards.

00:30:00.260 | So there are people out there who have an 800 credit score who make two 300 K, but who

00:30:04.380 | will not get approved for the Venture X because Capital One knows that you're not profitable.

00:30:08.580 | So you generally want to get your foot in that door early on.

00:30:11.420 | Saver One, Venture X are all pretty good cards for that.

00:30:14.620 | They also just make sense.

00:30:15.620 | They're good cards by themselves.

00:30:17.140 | If you hadn't opened a lot of Chase cards and you're sitting at 024 or 124, would you

00:30:21.580 | make a case to maybe start with a big bonus on a Venture X upfront?

00:30:26.020 | That's one of the few issuers I would consider burning a 524 slot for, but I'd probably still

00:30:31.080 | go through Chase personally, but depends on you.

00:30:33.740 | And is it as simple as Chase 524?

00:30:36.100 | If I'm at 124, can I just go open up four cards in the next 90 days?

00:30:40.860 | You generally want to get a new card, I would say every one to three months and then for

00:30:44.020 | business cards every two to three months.

00:30:45.620 | So you kind of want to have it out based off what you're trying to do.

00:30:48.380 | IXG Premier, World of Hyatt are all pretty good cards.

00:30:51.260 | Boundless is interesting, especially if you want to in the future upgrade to the Ritz

00:30:54.300 | card, which is another rabbit hole.

00:30:56.420 | United cards are good for the bonuses and downgrade paths and perks if you want free

00:30:59.700 | check to bags.

00:31:00.700 | Aeroplanes just a really good bonus, but doesn't have a downgrade path.

00:31:03.100 | But yeah, there's like a lot of cards you can get that just provide a lot of value.

00:31:06.220 | I think Chase is probably the issuer with the most six figure bonuses.

00:31:09.980 | It's always Chase.

00:31:10.980 | And then if you look at bonuses across the board, who really has a lot of bonuses, it's

00:31:14.660 | American Express and Chase.

00:31:16.520 | That's why you want to focus on Chase early on because you want to get those bonuses.

00:31:20.380 | And then a lot of the bonuses are also on a 24 month clock, where if you don't currently

00:31:24.820 | have the card and you haven't got the bonus in 24 months, you would actually be eligible

00:31:27.940 | for that bonus again.

00:31:28.940 | So a lot of people start off Chase, go through everything else, and then you can circle back

00:31:31.720 | to Chase.

00:31:32.720 | One thing that I think you'll find if you get to your fourth or fifth Chase card is

00:31:36.460 | you might get denied right away.

00:31:38.420 | And you can often, at least in my experience, call up and the denial isn't that they don't

00:31:42.060 | want to give you the card.

00:31:43.060 | It's they just don't want to give you any more credit.

00:31:44.580 | And you could say, "Oh, well, can you move some credit over from this other card I have

00:31:47.780 | that has a $25,000 limit?"

00:31:49.820 | You just put 10 there and bring 15 over.

00:31:51.580 | Yeah.

00:31:52.580 | So Chase generally wants to give you about 50% of your income as your total credit limit

00:31:56.220 | for them.

00:31:57.220 | That's what they're willing to risk.

00:31:58.220 | So if you make 100, then among all your Chase cards, total limit should be around 50K.

00:32:02.420 | So you can also carve room, which is what I call it, where you intentionally decrease

00:32:06.400 | credit limits to just make it easier to get approved.

00:32:08.740 | So like, let's say if you have a 200K salary, you know that your cap is 100K.

00:32:12.720 | If you already have 100K and you're not using all your credit limit anyways, why not just

00:32:16.380 | decrease one of these cards by 5K?

00:32:18.740 | Can you do that?

00:32:19.740 | Can you just ask them for a credit decrease?

00:32:21.180 | Yes, you can.

00:32:22.180 | And then that makes it easier to get approved.

00:32:23.700 | Obviously, some people will be like, "I'd rather call in.

00:32:25.540 | I don't owe getting credit limit decreases are dumb.

00:32:27.700 | Why would anyone do that?"

00:32:28.980 | As someone who doesn't like calling in and waiting on the phone and stuff, I'd rather

00:32:32.540 | just send a message saying, "Decrease my credit limit by 5K."

00:32:35.500 | That's immaterial to me.

00:32:36.660 | And if it makes the approval process easier, then that's a win.

00:32:38.900 | Do you think there's an argument of that actually working more often?

00:32:41.820 | My rationale is that it's lower risk.

00:32:44.060 | Because I think anytime you have more eyes on your account, it's a negative thing.

00:32:48.580 | So I don't want to have to call in and then ask them to move limits around and then have

00:32:53.540 | someone be like, "Why does this guy have 12 Chase cards?"

00:32:56.300 | Maybe that's another risk flag.

00:32:57.600 | By me decreasing the limit, then it's the algorithm approving me.

00:33:00.620 | And to me, that's just lower risk.

00:33:02.140 | So you go Chase to Amex, I'm guessing?

00:33:04.060 | No.

00:33:05.060 | So you do Chase to Capital One.

00:33:06.060 | Capital One.

00:33:07.060 | And then I would say Citi, Bank of America, Barclays are all kind of in the same zone.

00:33:11.460 | After Capital One, you can make the argument for U.S. Bank.

00:33:14.180 | And there's not that many cards unless you're in cashback, basically.

00:33:16.540 | And all the ones you mentioned, Bank of America, Barclays, U.S. Bank, are they all cashback?

00:33:21.180 | Bank of America would be for Alaska points because that is super valuable and they have

00:33:25.060 | a lot of first business class options with their partners.

00:33:27.780 | We flew Alaska a lot for a few years.

00:33:29.460 | We had some status and I collected all these Alaska points and I never want to spend them

00:33:32.980 | because I feel like they're the one currency.

00:33:35.300 | There's just no way to get more Alaska points that I know of.

00:33:37.960 | Maybe Bonvoy transfer.

00:33:39.420 | It's not really a good transfer though, right?

00:33:40.900 | It's pretty bad value to transfer.

00:33:42.520 | There is a case for Bank of America if you're on Team Cashback, if you want to have 100K

00:33:46.180 | with their brokerage, with Merrill or something.

00:33:48.340 | Let's come back to cashback.

00:33:49.660 | And any nuance with Amex?

00:33:51.100 | You generally want to start with the platinum card to like how they use the platinum offers

00:33:56.380 | to entice people to come in.

00:33:57.620 | So generally speaking, if you're not a customer of them, you can get the most value generally

00:34:01.880 | like 125, the 150K as an intro bonus.

00:34:04.420 | And like they dangle that carrot because when you're not a customer, they want to bring

00:34:07.680 | you in.

00:34:08.680 | But then the moment you become a customer, it becomes a lot harder to get that offer.

00:34:11.260 | You can still pull it up by using something like CardMatch.

00:34:13.820 | We have a whole blog post on assets that I'll be walking through CardMatch.

00:34:16.140 | But I think a lot of people just don't realize they see the gold card and they're like that

00:34:19.660 | card makes a lot of sense for me.

00:34:20.980 | And then you get that card and then you potentially lose out on 75K to like 25K in MRF Platinum

00:34:27.180 | bonus from the platinum that you otherwise could have gotten.

00:34:29.420 | I just got an email today that 150K on platinum through CardMatch is a very open option.

00:34:34.900 | Like sometimes it's you're lucky if you get it.

00:34:36.700 | Right now, it seems pretty pervasive for new customers.

00:34:39.260 | So I'll find a link to CardMatch for the 150K and I'll put in the show notes.

00:34:43.060 | If you're not a customer with them, that's generally the easiest way to get the 150K.

00:34:47.660 | If you are a customer, you still can get the 150K, but it's just a lot less common.

00:34:52.100 | And sometimes you have to literally wait for the flyers to come in the mail, like physical

00:34:55.380 | paper.

00:34:56.380 | And after, how do you think about the strategy of going through Amex membership rewards cards

00:35:00.940 | or MR as you've been saying, or all their airline hotel cards?

00:35:04.480 | I would do the other cards first just because they have so many other rules around it.

00:35:09.260 | So there's something called the 456 rule.

00:35:11.100 | So for their credit cards, you can only have four or five or six of them.

00:35:14.020 | Their MR cards don't have that rule, so you can actually get as many of them as you want

00:35:18.340 | at any time.

00:35:19.340 | So you generally want to start with the credit cards first, because that just makes more

00:35:22.260 | sense to start those clocks, because that's going to be your bottleneck.

00:35:25.780 | And that's all the Marriott, Hilton, and I mean, there's other cards, there's like a

00:35:30.380 | Lowe's card.

00:35:31.380 | I haven't gotten that one because that doesn't matter to me.

00:35:33.460 | Would it be there on your quest to 50?

00:35:35.180 | Is there an intro bonus?

00:35:36.300 | There is an intro bonus, but I don't think it matters for me because I don't shop there.

00:35:41.100 | What's after that?

00:35:42.100 | That's it, right?

00:35:43.100 | You either get a lease or you get into the business game, but I feel like that's it.

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00:38:31.640 | We didn't talk about built at all because as great as I think built points are, there's

00:38:35.440 | no welcome bonus.

00:38:36.520 | There's a secret welcome bonus that exists, technically, if you sign up.

00:38:39.720 | And then oftentimes, in the first five days, they'll let you earn up to 50k points.

00:38:43.680 | You get 5x points.

00:38:45.360 | And first they announce that it's official, and then they announce that it's random and

00:38:48.440 | it's not official.

00:38:49.440 | So I don't want to promise it.

00:38:50.440 | But if you want a card to earn 3x points on dining, great.

00:38:52.980 | But if you pay rent, it makes sense.

00:38:54.400 | I would still put it on the back burner after American Express, though, or maybe at the

00:38:57.880 | same time as American Express.

00:38:59.680 | The rationale being that the multiplier sounds nice on the surface, but if you're someone

00:39:03.640 | that's a low spender, you're better off using that rent to help hit intro bonuses.

00:39:07.440 | If you're someone who doesn't spend that much on everything else, but you're paying New

00:39:10.780 | York or Bay Area or anywhere rent, that 500 or 1,000 or 2,000 in spend, you can earn 1x.

00:39:16.400 | That sounds great, but you're better off just literally hitting a full on intro bonus and

00:39:20.320 | paying like maybe 2% fees, if that makes sense.

00:39:22.400 | So you're arguing that because the intro bonus is so big, let's use a practical example.

00:39:26.880 | Let's say you live in New York, your rent is 4k.

00:39:29.120 | You could easily use that 4k to hit the CSP intro bonus of 60k points.

00:39:33.520 | If you put it on the bills, you're getting 4,000 points.

00:39:35.920 | So you're looking at 60,000 points versus 4,000 points.

00:39:38.600 | And the fact that most intro bonuses are repeatable, you're going down the intro bonus list.

00:39:42.000 | And going for an intro bonus each month, even if you have to pay $80 in fees, on one card,

00:39:46.640 | you're paying 4,000, you're getting a 60,000 point bonus and spending $80 in fees.

00:39:50.760 | And on the other, you're spending 4,000, you're getting 4,000 points, but no fees.

00:39:54.340 | Because the net amount is positive.

00:39:55.960 | Even if you use enough credits to offset the fees you're paying, it just makes financial

00:40:00.360 | sense.

00:40:01.360 | The math works out.

00:40:02.360 | Have you done the math?

00:40:03.360 | What is an average percent back in points for intro bonuses?

00:40:07.000 | I'd say for cashback equivalent, probably about 20% to 30%.

00:40:10.280 | For travel stuff, 30% to 80%.

00:40:12.480 | Southwest ones, we've seen some pretty crazy offers there because they also have just lower

00:40:16.200 | minimum spends oftentimes.

00:40:17.960 | Business tends to be about 11.1%, give or take.

00:40:21.320 | So when you say 2025, you mean it's kind of like if your Amex gold card earns four points

00:40:25.580 | per dollar on groceries, for the amount of money you spend on the intro bonus, you're

00:40:29.720 | earning effectively 25 points per dollar?

00:40:32.260 | You could say that.

00:40:33.260 | Yeah.

00:40:34.260 | I mean, it's different per card.

00:40:35.260 | And if you spend money past the intro bonus, it's not the same.

00:40:36.880 | The argument, so for dining, it still makes sense that intro bonuses are better, but that's

00:40:40.680 | still 4x.

00:40:41.680 | With built, you're only looking at 1x.

00:40:42.840 | That is a pretty big difference to me.

00:40:44.040 | I think that makes sense.

00:40:45.040 | That was a lot.

00:40:46.040 | I think people have probably been convinced at least to look into the intro bonus game

00:40:50.240 | a little bit more if they haven't.

00:40:52.000 | What's the cap?

00:40:53.000 | How many cards are you at?

00:40:54.000 | North of 50.

00:40:55.000 | No problems.

00:40:56.000 | When you were in that home stretch doing the last 40 to 50, you were still getting approvals.

00:41:00.560 | That's why American Express was towards Dan.

00:41:02.360 | I think if you actually map out things properly, you can easily do that.

00:41:05.960 | It's not a problem in terms of managing.

00:41:07.480 | I think some people will be like, oh, that's a lot of work.

00:41:09.360 | You can automate a lot of it using either code or just building your own stuff.

00:41:12.840 | Or even if you want to keep it very manual, you can set a lot of the dates around the

00:41:16.520 | same time.

00:41:17.520 | So for example, all my chase cards close on the first of each month or as close as I could

00:41:21.880 | make it to the end of the month because everything just closes there.

00:41:24.480 | And then all my Amex cards close mid month.

00:41:26.680 | And why does that matter?

00:41:27.680 | Mostly just to make your life simpler.

00:41:28.880 | If someone's like 50 cards, how do I deal with paying these off?

00:41:32.040 | But you're not using all 50 regularly.

00:41:34.120 | I'm not using all 50.

00:41:35.120 | But I'm saying just mentally, if it's weird for you to be like, I don't want to look at

00:41:38.520 | my cards every single day of a month, potentially for some weird fraud charge or something.

00:41:42.780 | It's just easier to maybe set like one or two dates in a month as dates that you even

00:41:46.160 | look at stuff.

00:41:47.160 | But you don't need to use most of the cards.

00:41:48.160 | I just link all my cards.

00:41:49.680 | I use Copilot, but you can use any other tool, link all your cards, you'll see all the transactions

00:41:53.860 | come up.

00:41:54.860 | I don't think I've reviewed my transactions on the card issuer sites for a while.

00:41:58.640 | So I think that also works if you have an aggregator.

00:42:00.360 | But yeah, for the most part, I think it's a lot less stressful than you think it is.

00:42:03.640 | I think if you're coming from zero cards or like three cards to 50, that sounds very intense.

00:42:07.640 | But if you're someone who's already at 8 to 10, you're used to it at this point.

00:42:10.440 | It's like going to the gym.

00:42:11.440 | And so 50 cards, that's easily, I've got to assume at least 75,000 points per bonus.

00:42:16.960 | Overtake Yeah, to be fair, a lot of the bonuses were easier to get back in the day as well.

00:42:21.320 | Bank of America was substantially more lax with their intro bonuses and like how many

00:42:25.360 | cards you could get any other things to keep in mind, especially on Amex when it comes

00:42:29.600 | to how many times you can get a bonus.

00:42:31.680 | So it's technically once in a lifetime, I think there are some form inkling saying that

00:42:36.280 | maybe it's once every 10 years, but I just don't want to rely on an exception.

00:42:39.560 | For most people, I would lean towards American Express towards the end, unless you know that

00:42:45.280 | you don't want to get that many cards because not everyone does, or you're just a very high

00:42:49.520 | spender.

00:42:50.520 | Like if you're a food reviewer in New York and you spend 10k a month, then yeah, the

00:42:53.560 | gold card probably works out for you.

00:42:55.400 | And so we said we would talk about cashback briefly.

00:42:57.240 | If someone's thinking, this is great, I want to earn a lot of value, I want to open cards.

00:43:01.200 | But when it comes to using my points, I just find that I don't get the value I want.

00:43:05.360 | And if you're ending up using your points to just book in the travel portal on Amex

00:43:09.800 | or Citi, is it even worth playing the points game or is it worth considering cashback cards?

00:43:15.320 | You still can go for intro bonuses, because it's the same math that drives the needle

00:43:18.560 | the most.

00:43:19.560 | Setup wise, you might be looking at different cards.

00:43:21.660 | So I think Chase still kind of works pretty well for cashback.

00:43:24.160 | Bank of America is another consideration now because they have like these really good cards

00:43:27.760 | that you like earn up to 5.25% on a lot of transactions and 2.26, I think.

00:43:33.720 | 2.625.

00:43:34.720 | Yeah, 2.625 on everything else.

00:43:37.080 | Yeah.

00:43:38.080 | So there's always a play for that, especially if you just want something super simple.

00:43:41.520 | Amex, I think a lot of people get pissed off because they're like, wait, I only get 0.6

00:43:46.120 | cents in value for my points.

00:43:48.160 | And that's not very good.

00:43:49.160 | You can get the Schwab card in order to get like 1.1 cents.

00:43:52.520 | So that's a bit better.

00:43:53.520 | And that's the Schwab Platinum.

00:43:54.520 | The Schwab Platinum.

00:43:55.520 | But then at the same time, you're like, well, if you're someone that's focused on cashback,

00:43:59.360 | you tend not to travel, in which case the Platinum card becomes a lot harder to recommend

00:44:03.760 | and use.

00:44:04.760 | So that's a bigger dilemma where you're like, technically, a Platinum card might make financial

00:44:07.840 | sense because I spend so much and that increases my earn rate, but I don't travel.

00:44:11.760 | So this card is not useful other than for that earn rate bonus.

00:44:14.960 | If you want to earn points and you want to use them without having to go to the hassle

00:44:18.480 | of transferring, Chase is probably going to be best.

00:44:20.880 | Cap One, Citi, and then Amex.

00:44:22.880 | I think it's really tough because you only get 0.5 cents per point unless you use like

00:44:27.000 | the saver.

00:44:28.000 | But the Venture X kind of becomes like out of the equation.

00:44:30.160 | Even if you're booking in their portal?

00:44:31.160 | Oh, yeah.

00:44:32.160 | If you're doing some form of travel, then yeah, so you have 1 cent, sorry.

00:44:34.160 | But if you're like purely cashback, then I would say Capital One other than the saver

00:44:37.640 | or saver one would not be on my list.

00:44:39.560 | Citi's also not bad.

00:44:40.840 | Portal's still only 1 cent, but you could also cash out at 1 cent per point, which is

00:44:44.360 | pretty nice.

00:44:45.360 | Okay.

00:44:46.360 | So Citi's pretty good if you want credits out.

00:44:47.360 | And then we talked about rent, right?

00:44:48.360 | One way that you could hit these intro bonuses, because some of them spend a few thousand

00:44:51.920 | dollars.

00:44:52.920 | If you don't have that spend, do a lot of them, even run some in tandem.

00:44:55.600 | You could just pay fees.

00:44:56.760 | Are there other good ways to increase your spend to hit these bonuses without necessarily

00:45:02.600 | adding to your expenses for the year?

00:45:04.600 | I think you can speak to this pretty well.

00:45:06.480 | If you're the group trip planner, that works out very well, especially if you have more

00:45:10.520 | wealthy friends for a bachelor party or something.

00:45:12.720 | If everyone's paying you a ton of money, and then you're booking all the hotels, meals

00:45:15.680 | are obviously another one.

00:45:16.680 | I think a lot of people also end up starting businesses as a means of earning more points.

00:45:21.240 | And then eventually, ironically, that ends up becoming like a profit center and say,

00:45:24.960 | oh, I can make a lot of money here.

00:45:26.200 | So I've seen people flip things or drop shipping style stuff where you can get a lot of points

00:45:30.240 | and also get money.

00:45:31.240 | So I've run into people who are like, yeah, I run 100K in ads, make a crap ton of money.

00:45:35.040 | But I started this because I was trying to figure out how to get more points.

00:45:37.840 | I met someone recently who I think he said spends $4 million a month for his business

00:45:43.020 | on I can't remember which Amex it was.

00:45:45.040 | I would be so sad if it was like a platinum card because he could just be earning twice

00:45:48.160 | as much.

00:45:49.160 | But at that point, I'm like, if you're earning $4 million, I was going to guess the business

00:45:52.320 | goal for ads, but then I was like, oh, $4 million is a lot.

00:45:54.960 | That's a lot.

00:45:55.960 | I guess Amex might be the only card that would give you a limit to do that.

00:45:58.200 | Number one, VentureX business is also like a charge card where it's uncapped and 2x back

00:46:01.960 | on everything.

00:46:02.960 | That's what this person should have.

00:46:03.960 | That's why I think it's like the best new card right now or like the best business card

00:46:06.960 | arguably.

00:46:07.960 | Same with the Spark Cash Plus.

00:46:08.960 | Spark Cash Plus had the best intro bonus when I got it.

00:46:11.160 | It was $250,000.

00:46:12.720 | It's just the fact that it's uncapped because Amex, unless you're doing like 5K plus purchases,

00:46:17.440 | then you get 1.5x on the platinum business.

00:46:20.000 | But everything else is capped off, like the blue business plus, that's only 50K.

00:46:23.000 | You're going to burn through that.

00:46:24.240 | If you're a high spender, Amex doesn't have a great everything card.

00:46:26.720 | Surprisingly.

00:46:27.720 | So we talked a lot about earning points.

00:46:28.720 | We talked a lot about what's coming.

00:46:30.120 | Let's talk a little bit about how we use them.

00:46:31.480 | I think the two of us have gotten a chance to do a lot of exciting international, maybe

00:46:36.240 | some domestic aspirational trips.

00:46:38.560 | If people are sitting on points and thinking, what are some amazing ways to use them?

00:46:42.560 | What are some of your favorites and your highlights?

00:46:44.560 | Whether it's airline cabins, destinations, or specific properties.

00:46:48.200 | If you have a player two, you should probably ask them where they want to go.

00:46:51.440 | That's a good starting point because for a lot of people, that's how they actually convert

00:46:54.960 | their partner to get into credit cards because they're like, why are you focused on these

00:46:58.080 | points?

00:46:59.080 | This sounds dumb.

00:47:00.080 | But when you take them to the place they want to go, they're like, oh, this is really nice.

00:47:02.360 | Wow.

00:47:03.360 | Why were we flying economy before when we can fly business?

00:47:05.600 | I lean more towards hotel still in terms of value, because I think you get so much more

00:47:09.200 | time there.

00:47:10.200 | And also you can have two people.

00:47:11.880 | Flights are fun, but they feel so much more finite.

00:47:14.160 | I think Bora Bora Maldives are obviously the go to ones.

00:47:17.040 | And I think some people argue it's a bit overrated as someone that likes to snorkel and enjoy

00:47:20.960 | the water.

00:47:21.960 | I really like it.

00:47:22.960 | And I think the fact that I can check it off the bucket list is fun as well.

00:47:25.680 | No Seychelles yet.

00:47:26.800 | That's on the list for twenty twenty four.

00:47:28.620 | The new Waldorf.

00:47:29.620 | Oh, we did two Hilton's there.

00:47:31.240 | I don't know if they're both still there.

00:47:32.600 | I think we were looking to that initially.

00:47:34.160 | And then when we heard that the water was opening in twenty twenty four, I was like,

00:47:36.920 | oh, OK, let's just do that instead.

00:47:38.420 | Some of those aspirational stays have been great.

00:47:40.200 | But even domestically, I feel like you've been done Ventana, which is one of the best

00:47:44.540 | values of high points out there, despite being a lot of hype.

00:47:48.120 | I think that one's an interesting one.

00:47:49.800 | It's not for everyone.

00:47:50.800 | Like I've heard you either love it or you hate it.

00:47:52.760 | So I like it because it's a means for me to reconnect with environment and get away from

00:47:57.080 | everything as someone who's like constantly connected to technology.

00:48:00.500 | I grew up camping and doing a lot of that stuff.

00:48:02.680 | So it was the closest I could get to that while still keeping Mandy happy, because Mandy

00:48:06.600 | just does not like outdoors stuff for whatever reason.

00:48:10.100 | She's also sitting there right now.

00:48:11.160 | I think that was the closest she got to glamping, which is kind of funny and also sad.

00:48:14.960 | I've been there for a wedding and we were too cheap to book a room at the wedding rate

00:48:19.100 | and there was nothing with points.

00:48:20.440 | So we booked over like a room at a hotel down the street, and I have not been back yet.

00:48:24.920 | It's probably worth at least like one weekend.

00:48:26.720 | It's just a nice little escape that's nearby.

00:48:28.680 | So we hit the most obvious spots.

00:48:30.240 | Are there a few properties that aren't quite as wild as these honeymoon destinations that

00:48:35.840 | you think are interesting spots to check out around the world or even domestically?

00:48:39.760 | Not really a points one, but you can use points to get there booking through portals.

00:48:43.320 | Faroe Islands is still our favorite vacation that like we pretty much paid out of pocket

00:48:47.280 | for.

00:48:48.280 | It's one of the islands that is owned by Denmark, I believe.

00:48:51.080 | That's between London, Iceland, and basically up there, it's like a tiny islands.

00:48:55.640 | They have these puffins there.

00:48:56.800 | It's beautiful.

00:48:57.800 | Kind of what you imagine Iceland to be, but even nicer in a lot of ways.

00:49:00.400 | Just super picturesque.

00:49:01.400 | And last, what have been your top airline cabin experiences?

00:49:04.800 | If someone's like, I'm saving some points up and I just want to have a wild experience

00:49:08.940 | in the sky, where do you think your points can take you right now?

00:49:12.200 | Because I know getting Emirates first used to be a little bit more accessible, fees can

00:49:15.960 | get pretty high.

00:49:16.960 | What do you think is the best bang?

00:49:18.400 | Best bang for buck would probably be ANA given just the ways you can book it and like the

00:49:22.240 | value of the cabin and also the fact that it's like one of the best first and also business

00:49:25.880 | class.

00:49:26.880 | If anything, it's the best business class cabin right now.

00:49:28.080 | So I think that's where the value is.

00:49:29.560 | I think in terms of crazy experience, I mean Etihad first, apartments are still nice.

00:49:35.560 | I don't like their soft product, they were kind of mean, but it's fine.

00:49:38.880 | But the hard product is nice.

00:49:39.880 | It's like very big.

00:49:40.880 | And where can you get Etihad?

00:49:42.560 | Americans probably the best way.

00:49:43.560 | Or you can book through, I think their points, but it might not be that advantageous.

00:49:46.280 | They used to have more routes, but then since the shutdowns and stuff, the routes only recently

00:49:51.360 | opened back up.

00:49:52.360 | So I think London to Abu Dhabi or is it France to Abu Dhabi is the main one right now that

00:49:57.000 | has the new cabin.

00:49:58.000 | And second point is pretty hard to get.

00:49:59.320 | Is your stash of American points just American cards?

00:50:02.280 | Or how did you build up an American balance enough to do that?

00:50:04.440 | It's mostly American cards and we don't have that many anymore.

00:50:07.760 | So sometimes we actually even buy it if the math makes sense.

00:50:10.680 | So they'll have promotions where they'll be like, we'll give you an extra 40% points.

00:50:14.400 | So for us, I'm like, all right, cool.

00:50:15.680 | So that means I can book first class for about $2,200.

00:50:19.360 | I'm like, that still makes sense.

00:50:20.800 | There is a stage where if you're comfortable, especially if you're reviewing stuff, there

00:50:24.000 | is a case of buying points because at a certain point you do run out of points.

00:50:26.960 | I watched someone do the math on Wyndham points, Wyndham points using the book of Akasa.

00:50:31.640 | You can get some good deals, but at times, and I think recently there was one of those

00:50:35.120 | times where you could book Wyndham points for less than a penny a point.

00:50:37.960 | And so to transfer your points to Wyndham was actually a worse deal than to redeem them

00:50:42.040 | for statement credits and just buy the Wyndham points.

00:50:44.920 | Same thing with IHG where like their points are terrible value-wise and like there's almost

00:50:49.280 | no use case where you're getting at least one cent per point.

00:50:51.200 | So you're better off either just booking through the portal or just like cashing it out.

00:50:54.280 | But that's also why I'm wanting to switch from Delta because I have a lot of business

00:50:57.720 | spend anyways, and I'm going towards status.

00:51:00.200 | For my end result, do I want to have, let's say 200,000 Delta miles or do I want 200,000

00:51:04.720 | American?

00:51:05.720 | An American has so much more value while I'm sitting on an astronomical amount of Delta

00:51:08.600 | miles because I haven't had a good use case.

00:51:10.320 | I've been waiting for Delta flash sales to come back and they just did.

00:51:13.120 | But other than that, I don't want to spend 400K for business class one-way flight.

00:51:17.160 | So if someone's listening and they have half a million Delta points, how do you use Delta

00:51:20.600 | points to get good value?

00:51:22.080 | It's either Delta flash sales are kind of treating them like cash and like Southwest

00:51:26.480 | miles where you get fixed value.

00:51:28.400 | And if you're fine, if that's great, like if you're cash back focused or like economy

00:51:31.320 | travel, it's not bad, but like if you're looking for outsized value, it's tough.

00:51:35.000 | I remember we took our honeymoon to the Seychelles and it was 120,000 Delta points on Air France.

00:51:39.680 | Partner awards on Delta.

00:51:41.080 | Are there deals ever to be had?

00:51:42.840 | So there used to be a lot more and it was a lot easier back in the day of partner awards.

00:51:47.040 | And it's not really the case anymore.

00:51:48.720 | Delta flash sales is like the main thing that they discontinued for like three years during

00:51:52.480 | the shutdowns and it just brought back in August.

00:51:54.880 | That's generally when they have either Delta or partner flights that just have a lot of

00:51:59.220 | availability that like people aren't flying.

00:52:01.540 | So they end up having a sale for it and better value.

00:52:04.300 | I've been getting a lot of value from Delta points on just short domestic flights.

00:52:08.140 | It's like fixed value.

00:52:09.140 | But for that, you're getting like 1.3 to 1.5 like you're not getting crazy value.

00:52:11.900 | I found a few close to two cent values on Delta to Mexico booking on Delta through Aeromexico.

00:52:19.740 | And it was actually like a two, two and a half cent value, even in business.

00:52:24.180 | There is also another trick that I think I haven't talked a lot about because I wasn't

00:52:27.740 | sure if it was a good idea.

00:52:28.820 | But if you actually don't fly from the US, if you leave from Mexico, you can still get

00:52:33.020 | good value from business class.

00:52:34.660 | On Delta.

00:52:35.660 | On Delta.

00:52:36.660 | Booking Delta.

00:52:37.660 | Through partners.

00:52:38.660 | But if you flew to like Mexico City to fly some other airline to like Korea or something,

00:52:42.980 | then it's not going to cost you 400,000 points.

00:52:44.780 | It might only cost you like 100,000 points.

00:52:46.260 | So if you live in Texas, it might be a good deal.

00:52:49.620 | Get to Mexico City and go.

00:52:50.980 | If you live on the West Coast and have kids, it might sound like a nightmare.

00:52:54.300 | I don't think I would do that if you had kids.

00:52:56.220 | It's not on the table.

00:52:57.220 | Any other cool deals, hacks like that, you know, in the miles world that you want to

00:53:00.780 | share before we take off?

00:53:02.500 | Nothing I can think of too much right now.

00:53:04.580 | Yeah.

00:53:05.580 | I think for the most part, that's it.

00:53:06.580 | This is so awesome.

00:53:07.580 | If you want any links to any of the cards we talked about, you can go to all thehacks.com/cards

00:53:11.300 | except a few.

00:53:12.300 | Sebastian, let people know where to find those and everything else you're working on.

00:53:15.740 | For city cards or for other cards where you want to run the numbers and like play off

00:53:19.620 | the calculator, we have that on AskSebi.com.

00:53:22.180 | You can find me on YouTube at AskSebi and then AskSebiBusiness.

00:53:25.180 | We'll link to everything in the show notes.

00:53:26.980 | Sebastian, thank you so much for being here.

00:53:28.420 | Thank you for having me.

00:53:31.020 | Thank you so much for joining today.

00:53:32.660 | I feel like I know a lot about cards, but I still picked up a bunch of new things.

00:53:37.260 | And I really hope it's going to help you earn a ton more points this year and next.

00:53:41.700 | Quick word of caution, I went to apply for the VentureX business after my conversation

00:53:45.400 | with Sebastian, but didn't realize that you're not eligible for the card or the bonus if

00:53:49.900 | you already have the Spark Cash Plus, which I do.

00:53:53.500 | So I got denied.

00:53:54.500 | I guess I'm going to have to cancel my Spark Cash Plus before trying again, hopefully before

00:53:59.060 | that bonus comes down, which right now is 150,000 points.

00:54:03.300 | But you do need to spend $30,000 in the first three months.

00:54:06.700 | Anyways, that's all for this week.

00:54:08.820 | If you're going after any of these cards or bonuses, you can find links to every card

00:54:13.020 | at allthehacks.com/cards.

00:54:15.420 | And assuming the offers are competitive, I'd really appreciate you using those links and

00:54:19.180 | supporting the show.

00:54:20.700 | Thanks in advance.

00:54:21.700 | See you next week.

00:54:27.500 | [music]

00:54:29.900 | [music]

00:54:31.900 | [music]

00:54:33.900 | [BIRDS CHIRPING]