ATHLLC1397705436

00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)

00:00:01.840 | - Hello, and welcome to another episode of "All The Hacks,"

00:00:04.960 | a show about upgrading your life, money, and travel.

00:00:07.960 | I'm your host, Chris Hutchins,

00:00:09.180 | and I'm really excited for my conversation today

00:00:11.420 | with Stanford professor, Matt Abrahams,

00:00:13.640 | who has dedicated his career

00:00:15.220 | to help people excel at communicating,

00:00:17.480 | even when they've been put on the spot in public.

00:00:19.980 | And this episode is gonna be so applicable

00:00:22.140 | to everyone listening,

00:00:23.240 | because most of the conversations we all have in our lives

00:00:26.440 | are spontaneous,

00:00:28.060 | unless it's a planned speech or presentation.

00:00:30.600 | But even then, I find that a good part of it

00:00:32.940 | ends up being off the cuff.

00:00:34.440 | So we're gonna talk about the six-step process

00:00:36.980 | he developed for his latest book,

00:00:38.580 | "Think Faster, Talk Smarter,"

00:00:40.540 | which will help you do exactly that

00:00:42.500 | in almost any situation.

00:00:44.280 | I am so excited for this conversation,

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00:02:07.520 | (upbeat music)

00:02:09.280 | - Matt, thanks for being here.

00:02:10.320 | - I am really excited to have a conversation, Chris, thanks.

00:02:13.120 | - So there's probably a wide range of comfort levels

00:02:15.560 | with communication and public speaking

00:02:17.280 | amongst people listening right now,

00:02:18.760 | but I think there's a situation that you're familiar with

00:02:21.200 | that's tough for lots of people,

00:02:22.740 | and that's when they're put on the spot.

00:02:23.920 | So first off, I just wanna know,

00:02:25.360 | what do you think makes that kind of

00:02:26.720 | spontaneous conversational situation so tough,

00:02:29.480 | and why do you think handling it can become

00:02:31.840 | such a valuable skill for people to learn?

00:02:34.080 | - Well, you're right.

00:02:34.900 | Most of our communication, if you think about it,

00:02:36.880 | is in the moment.

00:02:37.920 | You know, it's very rare that it's all planned.

00:02:40.640 | It's the presentation, pitch, or meeting.

00:02:43.120 | A lot of what we do is in the moment,

00:02:44.620 | and I think it is most fraught with anxiety and concern

00:02:48.340 | because we have so many things

00:02:49.760 | conspiring against us at once.

00:02:51.600 | Time pressure, we wanna do it right,

00:02:53.720 | we have to adjust and adapt

00:02:55.120 | to what's happening in the moment.

00:02:56.400 | All of those things make these situations

00:02:58.520 | really, really hard for us.

00:03:00.360 | Yet, with some work,

00:03:01.680 | we can develop the skills that are needed.

00:03:04.200 | Just like any other skill,

00:03:05.820 | you can develop the skills to speak better in the moment.

00:03:08.800 | - You've written a book on this.

00:03:09.680 | I see it behind you in the video.

00:03:11.240 | Let's talk about these skills

00:03:12.640 | 'cause I think you have a method

00:03:13.840 | for developing these skills.

00:03:15.140 | I would start through the method,

00:03:16.560 | but if you have anything else you wanna cover first,

00:03:18.480 | go for it.

00:03:19.320 | I'm curious how this can be overcome.

00:03:21.200 | - Absolutely.

00:03:22.040 | So, happy to walk through the steps.

00:03:23.800 | The first thing I wanna say, Chris,

00:03:25.120 | that I think is really important

00:03:26.440 | is that we can all learn to get better

00:03:28.960 | at spontaneous speaking.

00:03:30.420 | Many of us feel like,

00:03:31.740 | oh, that's just for those other people

00:03:33.480 | who have the gift of gab,

00:03:35.040 | they just know how to do it,

00:03:36.160 | or they're extreme extroverts and that's how it goes.

00:03:39.160 | That's not true.

00:03:40.040 | Everybody can get better at speaking in the moment,

00:03:42.920 | be it answering questions, giving feedback,

00:03:44.720 | making small talk.

00:03:45.680 | We can learn to do it.

00:03:46.680 | I, over the past 10 years, have developed a methodology.

00:03:49.700 | It started as a need out of Stanford's Business School,

00:03:53.320 | where I teach.

00:03:54.160 | The deans came to me and said,

00:03:55.400 | "Our incredibly bright students

00:03:57.820 | are really struggling answering questions in the moment."

00:04:01.520 | So, when that professor says,

00:04:02.640 | "What do you think?"

00:04:03.480 | That dreaded cold call,

00:04:04.880 | they knew the answers,

00:04:05.980 | they just really couldn't give the answers well.

00:04:08.320 | And so, that's where I started this journey

00:04:10.320 | to identify this six-step methodology,

00:04:12.560 | which really divides into two categories,

00:04:14.720 | mindset and messaging.

00:04:16.720 | So, the four steps in mindset.

00:04:18.280 | First, start with anxiety.

00:04:19.640 | And I'm sure you and I will talk a bit

00:04:21.120 | about anxiety around speaking,

00:04:22.640 | because that's something that really, really bothers

00:04:24.920 | a lot of people, myself included.

00:04:26.520 | So, we have to learn to manage anxiety.

00:04:28.440 | Not overcome it, I don't think we ever can,

00:04:30.560 | but I do think we can learn to manage it.

00:04:32.200 | That's step one.

00:04:33.120 | Step two, many of us in these spontaneous speaking situations

00:04:36.720 | want to do it right.

00:04:38.660 | We wanna be perfect or give the best answer possible.

00:04:41.640 | And you know, Chris, I've been doing this a long time.

00:04:43.680 | There is no one right answer to anything.

00:04:47.000 | You have to just find the best way to do it for you.

00:04:49.600 | So, there are better ways and worse ways,

00:04:51.160 | there is no one right way.

00:04:52.440 | Step three is about seeing these situations as opportunities.

00:04:55.600 | Many of us feel threatened.

00:04:57.160 | If I told you, Chris, right now,

00:04:58.240 | "Hey, guess what?

00:04:59.080 | When I'm done talking, I'm gonna give you a test

00:05:00.560 | and you have to answer these on the spot."

00:05:02.120 | You would probably not say, "Oh, that's great.

00:05:04.200 | I'm really excited."

00:05:05.040 | You'd probably say, "Oh crap, I better pay attention more."

00:05:07.080 | And it is in that moment,

00:05:08.740 | you see it as a threat or a challenge.

00:05:10.560 | And if we can reframe that as an opportunity,

00:05:12.680 | like, "Yeah, I get to learn more.

00:05:13.880 | I get to share information.

00:05:15.320 | It's gonna be better for both of us."

00:05:17.160 | That opportunistic mindset makes a big difference.

00:05:19.840 | And that's step three.

00:05:21.000 | Step four of mindset really has to do with listening.

00:05:23.880 | It seems strange that we're talking about speaking,

00:05:25.780 | but the best way to be a good in the moment speaker

00:05:29.240 | is to listen well.

00:05:30.400 | So, you can make the right nuanced choices.

00:05:33.040 | And I'm happy to talk more about listening later.

00:05:35.120 | But those are the first four for mindset.

00:05:36.960 | Anxiety, getting out of your own way,

00:05:39.080 | seeing it as an opportunity and listening well.

00:05:41.520 | The second two steps are messaging.

00:05:43.360 | First, you have to have a structure.

00:05:45.000 | Our brains are not wired to remember things

00:05:47.720 | that are just lists of information.

00:05:49.560 | We need things in a logical packaged way.

00:05:52.180 | And then finally, the final step

00:05:53.560 | is what I call the F word of communication.

00:05:55.800 | It's not that naughty one, I see you smiling.

00:05:57.840 | It's focus, we need to be focused.

00:06:00.280 | Many people take us on a journey of their discovery

00:06:03.640 | of what they're saying while they're saying it,

00:06:05.600 | when they're responding spontaneously.

00:06:07.560 | And that doesn't work.

00:06:08.400 | We need to be clear, we need to be concise.

00:06:10.480 | So, we have to focus our messages.

00:06:12.320 | So, those six steps when practiced over time

00:06:15.880 | can help anybody become a better in the moment communicator.

00:06:19.640 | - I wanna go through them,

00:06:20.480 | but I do wanna ask another question.

00:06:22.000 | If I rewind, you talked about

00:06:23.360 | how anyone can learn these skills.

00:06:25.000 | I'm curious, let's say someone feels confident

00:06:27.320 | with their ability to speak on the spot.

00:06:28.880 | How much opportunity is there to use these to improve

00:06:32.160 | versus someone who feels uncomfortable

00:06:34.560 | can get to a baseline?

00:06:35.900 | - Yes, you can absolutely improve using these steps.

00:06:38.640 | A lot of people are good at some of these steps,

00:06:41.480 | but not all of them and really could use the practice.

00:06:43.840 | And I believe all of us can continue

00:06:45.640 | to get better at communication.

00:06:47.000 | I envision improving communication as ascending a mountain

00:06:50.040 | and people are on different parts of the mountain,

00:06:51.840 | but we're all striving to get to the top.

00:06:53.720 | I don't even see the summit yet

00:06:55.080 | and I've been doing this for decades.

00:06:56.400 | So, we can all get better.

00:06:58.040 | And what it's about is the finer details

00:07:00.920 | of each of these steps.

00:07:02.120 | When you're first coming to this work

00:07:03.680 | and you're a nervous novice speaker,

00:07:05.840 | you're dealing with the big rocks.

00:07:07.400 | And now what we begin to get into is the little pebbles

00:07:10.280 | and the sand that can help us get better at it.

00:07:12.560 | - And is there any kind of diagnostic or test

00:07:14.840 | or something that I could take and be like,

00:07:16.360 | "Which one do I need to focus on?"

00:07:18.320 | - Well, so I think most people need to start with anxiety.

00:07:20.920 | And anxiety around speaking in public is ubiquitous.

00:07:24.000 | So, I often tell people to start there.

00:07:27.040 | Then the next step that I think is most important

00:07:29.400 | after managing anxiety is the messaging step.

00:07:31.840 | Really beginning to work on structure.

00:07:33.720 | I think if you said, "Hey, I'm a super busy person.

00:07:36.400 | "I can only do a little bit of work.

00:07:38.040 | "What should I do?"

00:07:39.240 | I would say start with managing anxiety,

00:07:41.240 | move then next to how do you structure your messages.

00:07:43.960 | All of the other steps are essential,

00:07:45.600 | but those are the two that I think will get you

00:07:47.560 | accelerated down this path the most.

00:07:49.800 | - Let's go a little deeper on anxiety

00:07:51.640 | 'cause I think it comes in a lot of forms

00:07:53.520 | and someone that hasn't necessarily believed

00:07:56.080 | that they have it might actually have it.

00:07:57.720 | I think maybe our society puts too harsh of a term

00:08:00.600 | on the word anxiety to think it could mean a lot,

00:08:02.960 | but just not being confident walking out on stage

00:08:05.600 | or walking into a meeting is a form of anxiety

00:08:07.960 | and it doesn't need to debilitate you,

00:08:10.400 | but it's something you can manage.

00:08:11.400 | - That's true, that's true.

00:08:12.280 | I mean, it's everything from a little jitter

00:08:13.960 | all the way up to full-on really, really anxious.

00:08:16.840 | So there's a wide range.

00:08:18.520 | So anxiety looms large.

00:08:20.200 | Those of us who study it believe it's part of being human,

00:08:23.360 | that part of getting up in front of other people

00:08:25.880 | is risk invoking and it causes us to respond

00:08:29.680 | as if we're under threat.

00:08:30.880 | To address it, we have to take a two-pronged approach.

00:08:33.640 | You have to look both at symptoms and sources.

00:08:36.520 | So Chris, I'm curious, I'll share mine first,

00:08:38.680 | but I'm curious what happens to you

00:08:40.880 | when you get nervous and being up in front of others?

00:08:42.920 | For me, I blush and I perspire.

00:08:45.080 | I turn red and I sweat.

00:08:46.520 | What happens for you?

00:08:47.360 | - It's a good timing to ask this question

00:08:49.240 | 'cause on Saturday I gave a talk at a conference

00:08:51.800 | and I hadn't given a talk in a public,

00:08:53.880 | in-person setting for years.

00:08:55.640 | And I know the feelings before, which were really about me.

00:08:59.400 | There was always like the one or two parts of the talk

00:09:01.800 | that I knew I just didn't have 100% down.

00:09:04.840 | And you'll never have it 100% down, right?

00:09:06.880 | It's like, what's the slide?

00:09:08.280 | In this case, there were slides.

00:09:09.480 | There were two slides where I thought I was likely

00:09:11.640 | to butcher something because I just couldn't remember it.

00:09:13.880 | And so the moment I have before going out is like,

00:09:16.760 | can I just feel good about the thing I feel worse about?

00:09:19.440 | - Oh, that's interesting.

00:09:20.520 | - I don't know the physical manifestation of that

00:09:22.640 | other than I guess like closing my eyes

00:09:24.640 | and thinking about it, pacing around the room.

00:09:26.760 | - Interesting, so for you, it's a mental thing.

00:09:28.960 | - I have no fear walking on the stage,

00:09:31.240 | no fear of all the people, no fear of the microphone.

00:09:33.680 | It's like my fear was I'm a lots of content small window.

00:09:37.480 | So I had a 15 minute talk and there were 48 slides.

00:09:40.120 | - Oh my goodness.

00:09:41.040 | - So it was very structured.

00:09:42.280 | And there was one part where I was talking about a study

00:09:45.280 | and it's actually about podcasting.

00:09:46.880 | And the study from the UC system

00:09:49.200 | was about in-head localization

00:09:51.320 | and how when you hear people talking in a conversation

00:09:54.320 | through headphones specifically,

00:09:56.000 | it creates the kind of intimacy

00:09:58.760 | that's almost indistinguishable from real human relations.

00:10:02.400 | And so you'd feel like this person, you know them,

00:10:04.480 | they're your best friend because they're on your headphones

00:10:06.400 | and it creates that experience.

00:10:07.600 | But some of the nuances of that study

00:10:09.600 | and what they came to, I was like, am I gonna miss it?

00:10:12.120 | Am I gonna forget it?

00:10:12.960 | Am I even gonna forget that it's in-head localization

00:10:15.240 | and call it normalization?

00:10:16.520 | And that was the thing that was getting me tripped out.

00:10:18.880 | - Right, before I comment on that,

00:10:20.200 | I just wanna say right now for you and your listeners,

00:10:23.240 | we are really connecting

00:10:24.760 | because we are in some of your listeners earbuds as we speak.

00:10:28.240 | I find that research fascinating.

00:10:29.680 | For many people, very similar to you,

00:10:32.000 | they get in their head literally,

00:10:33.800 | not what that study was about,

00:10:35.160 | worrying about, am I saying it right?

00:10:37.080 | Am I going to make sure I get as much information

00:10:39.680 | as I really want to across to my audience?

00:10:42.040 | And that causes a lot of that pressure.

00:10:43.640 | That to me is more of a source than a symptom.

00:10:46.600 | So let me distinguish the two.

00:10:47.840 | A symptom is what physically goes on in your body.

00:10:50.480 | So for me, I turn red, I perspire, other people shake,

00:10:53.680 | some people speak really fast.

00:10:56.000 | This is your body's reaction to the fight or flight response

00:10:59.800 | and there's some things we can do to manage symptoms.

00:11:01.680 | For example, take a deep belly breath.

00:11:03.800 | Make sure your exhale is longer than your inhale

00:11:06.160 | because it's on the exhale that the magic happens.

00:11:08.520 | You can, if you are somebody like me

00:11:10.200 | who blushes and perspires a lot, cool your body down.

00:11:13.400 | Holding something cold in the palm of your hand

00:11:15.500 | will actually reduce your core body temperature,

00:11:17.600 | just like when you have a fever

00:11:18.960 | and you put a cold compress on your head.

00:11:20.720 | So there are things that we can do

00:11:22.280 | to reduce some of the symptoms.

00:11:23.940 | Now we also have to think about the sources,

00:11:25.820 | which is what you were really talking about.

00:11:27.340 | These are the things that initiate

00:11:29.140 | and exacerbate our anxiety.

00:11:30.680 | And for you, it was that internal dialogue

00:11:33.160 | of here's what I want to say.

00:11:35.160 | Can I make sure that I say it

00:11:37.120 | and say it in the right way to convey what I want?

00:11:39.960 | That's a lot of conversation that's going on in your head.

00:11:42.880 | And what that does is it steals away

00:11:45.360 | your cognitive bandwidth

00:11:46.960 | to actually focus on what you're saying.

00:11:48.980 | It's sort of like a laptop or your phone

00:11:51.040 | where you have lots of windows open all at the same time.

00:11:53.640 | When you do that, your CPU actually performs less well.

00:11:57.160 | And if my brain is judging and evaluating

00:11:59.240 | and I'm trying to speak something intelligent

00:12:01.400 | at the same time,

00:12:02.280 | I have less cognitive resources to do either well.

00:12:05.240 | So I have the audacity in front of my Stanford MBA students

00:12:08.400 | on the first day of every class,

00:12:09.960 | I say we want to maximize our mediocrity.

00:12:13.040 | And I tell you, their jaws drop.

00:12:15.120 | Nobody in their lives has ever told them

00:12:16.800 | to maximize mediocrity.

00:12:18.120 | But I tell them the reason why

00:12:19.400 | is when you're striving for being really, really right,

00:12:22.320 | perfect in what you're doing,

00:12:23.880 | you're actually reducing the ability to do it well.

00:12:26.160 | So you will actually do better

00:12:28.200 | when you just focus on getting the task done,

00:12:30.920 | just answer the question, just give the feedback,

00:12:33.280 | just say hi to somebody during small talk.

00:12:35.360 | And by just focusing on that

00:12:36.960 | and turning down that volume of judgment and evaluation,

00:12:40.000 | you'll feel less nervous.

00:12:41.280 | So we have to take symptoms and sources.

00:12:43.440 | Everybody is different.

00:12:44.540 | What trips you up is different than what trips me up.

00:12:47.000 | So that's why I have everybody I work with

00:12:48.880 | create an individualized anxiety management plan.

00:12:52.000 | Besides deep breathing,

00:12:53.320 | there is no one recommendation I would make to everybody.

00:12:56.400 | Everybody is different.

00:12:57.560 | And that's why I always ask, what happens for you?

00:12:59.800 | You're in your head.

00:13:00.640 | I'm not in my head, I'm in my body.

00:13:01.920 | That's what causes me my issues.

00:13:03.360 | And that's how we have to work on them.

00:13:04.920 | - And is there a specific thing that if it's in your body,

00:13:07.680 | it's a deep breath and cool down.

00:13:09.080 | If it's in your head, it's a think about the fact that,

00:13:11.980 | I mean, what helped me was anytime I'm giving a talk,

00:13:14.720 | I always think that even if I only hit 80%

00:13:16.720 | of the talking points, it's gonna be great.

00:13:18.200 | Like the point is not to hit a hundred.

00:13:19.960 | And that's what I do is I remind myself

00:13:21.840 | that I'm not gonna hit it all.

00:13:23.240 | And that's okay.

00:13:24.080 | - So for you, it's giving yourself permission.

00:13:25.760 | And that's great.

00:13:26.600 | For other people who are in their head,

00:13:27.880 | I tell them focus on the value

00:13:29.600 | you're bringing to the audience.

00:13:30.720 | It's not about you, it's about them.

00:13:32.240 | And just reminding yourself you're giving value,

00:13:34.120 | that's enough to help them.

00:13:35.320 | So everybody is different.

00:13:36.740 | My first book I wrote was called

00:13:38.200 | "Speaking Up Without Freaking Out."

00:13:39.920 | It was 50 techniques based on academic research

00:13:42.800 | to help people manage anxiety.

00:13:44.480 | I expect three to five of the 50 to work for each individual.

00:13:48.520 | So everybody's different.

00:13:49.520 | So the advice I'd give you,

00:13:50.880 | which sounds like you're already doing this,

00:13:52.520 | which is to remind yourself

00:13:53.600 | that you're the only one who knows what you could say.

00:13:56.160 | We only hear what you do say.

00:13:57.720 | So if you're fine with saying what you say, that's great.

00:14:00.580 | You don't have to be nervous about it.

00:14:01.880 | It's those of us who say, well, I could have said this.

00:14:03.960 | I should have said that.

00:14:04.800 | That's where that stress comes from.

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00:16:35.560 | That's managing my anxiety.

00:16:36.880 | I know you said the next one is messaging,

00:16:38.520 | but I think for the sake of the conversation,

00:16:40.320 | it might be easier to go in sequence.

00:16:41.800 | - So the next step I've already broached,

00:16:43.760 | which is this notion of striving for perfection,

00:16:45.960 | precludes us from actually doing well at all.

00:16:48.960 | It's that cognitive bandwidth issue.

00:16:50.920 | So we need to let go of being perfect,

00:16:53.160 | and we need to just focus on how we can best connect.

00:16:55.720 | So it's really about thinking about my audience,

00:16:58.000 | what's relevant and important to them.

00:16:59.920 | You know, when people speak,

00:17:01.440 | let's take planned speaking as an example.

00:17:03.840 | What you did this past weekend,

00:17:05.480 | you had your slides, it was planned,

00:17:07.160 | you had thought it through in advance.

00:17:08.720 | Most people, when they speak in those circumstances,

00:17:11.040 | define success as getting from the beginning to the end.

00:17:14.040 | My job is to speak,

00:17:15.200 | I am going to get everything that I've intended to say out.

00:17:17.880 | That's really not what your goal is.

00:17:19.560 | Your goal is to take your material,

00:17:21.600 | connect it to your audience

00:17:22.920 | so that they better understand it.

00:17:24.680 | So if we switch that gear from being,

00:17:27.440 | I gotta get it across and I gotta get it across well,

00:17:29.840 | to I have to get it out there

00:17:31.200 | so people actually really understand it,

00:17:33.120 | that focusing on connection and relevance

00:17:35.680 | is the unlock to get us out of that self-judgment

00:17:38.920 | and self-evaluation.

00:17:40.200 | So the way we really maximize mediocrity

00:17:42.880 | to do really good things

00:17:44.360 | is to give ourselves permission

00:17:45.760 | to focus on really connecting our content to our audience.

00:17:48.720 | - I don't want everyone to think,

00:17:49.560 | "Oh wow, this was so easy."

00:17:50.640 | The funny thing was before the talk,

00:17:52.720 | I was kind of hanging out in this room

00:17:53.960 | with a few of the other speakers.

00:17:55.240 | And for me, I was like,

00:17:57.160 | "Oh, I wanna go have a conversation with this other person."

00:17:59.320 | And you know, there was a guy

00:18:00.600 | who focuses on longevity and health tech.

00:18:03.120 | And I was like, "What do I talk to this guy about?"

00:18:04.720 | So just to let the audience listening now know,

00:18:07.840 | for as much as I felt really good about my talk,

00:18:10.200 | I felt equally not good

00:18:11.800 | about having a great conversation with a random person

00:18:14.640 | for whom I had a little bit of research on.

00:18:16.800 | And I think in a little way,

00:18:18.280 | I was like striving for perfection too much.

00:18:20.360 | I was like, "What's the perfect thing

00:18:21.600 | "I can talk about to with this person

00:18:23.420 | "that someone else isn't already coming up

00:18:25.020 | "to talk to him about?

00:18:25.840 | "What do I say?"

00:18:26.680 | And I kind of got lost.

00:18:27.520 | So I don't know if fixing that circumstance

00:18:29.600 | is also handled in this step or not,

00:18:31.640 | but that one was hard for me.

00:18:32.800 | - It certainly is addressed here.

00:18:34.000 | So this whole second part of my book

00:18:35.560 | is I identify six very common

00:18:37.880 | spontaneous speaking situations

00:18:39.600 | and give very specific advice on how to manage them.

00:18:42.080 | One of them is what you're talking about,

00:18:43.560 | small talk and chit-chat.

00:18:44.920 | And we put a lot of pressure on ourselves

00:18:47.060 | to be really, really interesting

00:18:49.120 | and be really, really insightful in those conversations.

00:18:52.320 | And that makes it really stressful.

00:18:53.680 | A friend of mine, her name is Rachel Greenwald.

00:18:55.920 | She is a very interesting woman.

00:18:57.480 | She is a professional matchmaker and an academic.

00:19:00.640 | And she looks at conversation and chit-chat,

00:19:02.920 | obviously small talk is part of that.

00:19:04.400 | And she has this great saying that I tell everybody,

00:19:06.640 | it's about being interested, not interesting.

00:19:09.960 | And that's really another way of saying

00:19:11.800 | it's about connection, not perfection.

00:19:14.320 | We go into small talk as it sounds like you were doing,

00:19:16.920 | thinking it's like playing tennis.

00:19:18.280 | I have to get that ball over the net

00:19:19.920 | and it has to land just right away.

00:19:22.320 | And instead, you need to think of it as hacky sack.

00:19:25.360 | You're significantly younger than I am,

00:19:27.320 | but you know what hacky sack is

00:19:28.520 | where you kick to that beanbag.

00:19:29.800 | - I am familiar.

00:19:30.840 | - In hacky sack, the goal is for me to serve it to you

00:19:33.480 | so you can keep the ball in the air

00:19:34.880 | when you serve it back to me or somebody else.

00:19:36.560 | So we're actually collaborating to keep the game going.

00:19:39.040 | It's not like tennis where it's a,

00:19:40.400 | I win, you lose sort of thing.

00:19:42.080 | And when you go into these small talk situations

00:19:44.880 | saying it's about being interested, not interesting,

00:19:47.280 | lead with curiosity, lead with connection,

00:19:49.720 | then all of a sudden it gets easier.

00:19:51.160 | And that perfection idea that you were being worried about

00:19:54.520 | or were concerned about in your meeting

00:19:56.440 | the people backstage reduces.

00:19:58.600 | - Interesting.

00:19:59.440 | To be interested, it sounds like you need to realize

00:20:01.520 | you're probably not talking as much as you might think

00:20:04.320 | trying to be interesting.

00:20:05.400 | - You bet.

00:20:06.240 | - Do you have a favorite way that you open conversations

00:20:08.720 | with strangers and new people

00:20:10.680 | that might be things people would like to hear?

00:20:12.680 | - I wanna put this in context of,

00:20:14.760 | when I am in appropriate situations,

00:20:17.040 | yes, I don't just randomly go around talking to strangers,

00:20:19.880 | although that might be interesting to do.

00:20:21.600 | Yes, so we wanna avoid these doom loops

00:20:24.720 | that we can get into.

00:20:25.800 | So it's the, "Hey, Chris, how are you?"

00:20:27.320 | And you say, "Great, Matt, how are you?"

00:20:28.560 | "Okay, now we're nowhere better than we were."

00:20:30.360 | "Hi, Chris, what do you do?"

00:20:31.360 | "I do podcasting."

00:20:32.280 | "Matt, what do you do?"

00:20:33.120 | "I teach."

00:20:33.960 | "All right, great."

00:20:34.800 | I like highlighting things

00:20:35.640 | that are in the environment in context.

00:20:37.760 | So if you're at an event,

00:20:39.440 | like it sounds like you were recently,

00:20:40.840 | you could comment on something that happened

00:20:42.520 | before you were speaking.

00:20:44.560 | Maybe there was a big keynote

00:20:45.720 | or maybe there was some kind of gala or party or whatever.

00:20:48.240 | You could comment on that.

00:20:49.240 | When I was writing this chapter in the book,

00:20:51.000 | I happened to go to an event and I walked in.

00:20:53.080 | I said, "I'm writing about small talk.

00:20:54.400 | I better practice what I'm writing about."

00:20:56.120 | So I noticed in the room that everybody,

00:20:58.680 | almost everybody to a person

00:21:00.080 | was wearing a different colored blue shirt.

00:21:02.360 | There were more blue shirts than anything I'd seen.

00:21:04.160 | I went up to somebody I didn't know and I said,

00:21:05.920 | "Did I miss the memo?

00:21:07.000 | Everybody's in blue shirts."

00:21:08.200 | And the person looked around and said,

00:21:09.440 | "You're right, that's really interesting."

00:21:11.200 | And then we started a whole conversation around tire

00:21:14.080 | and then it turned into a whole bunch of other stuff.

00:21:16.080 | So highlighting something in the environment

00:21:17.960 | can really be a nice way to start.

00:21:20.040 | It gives you a commonality, a common ground.

00:21:22.400 | And it's not one of these trite heuristic based starts.

00:21:26.080 | - I wanna go back to some of this,

00:21:27.520 | but I have another question that's a follow-up,

00:21:29.360 | which is the opposite.

00:21:30.200 | Now I'm in this small talk conversation.

00:21:31.920 | Do you have a tactic for when you're done?

00:21:34.000 | I find that some people

00:21:35.120 | just always have a great way to handle this.

00:21:36.960 | And it might not be part of thinking fast and talking smart,

00:21:39.840 | but it certainly seems like something

00:21:41.360 | I think you might know.

00:21:42.200 | - Well, I'd love to hear the tactics you've seen work.

00:21:44.160 | I mean, most of us, our default is biology.

00:21:46.920 | I gotta go to the bathroom, I'm hungry, I'm thirsty, right?

00:21:49.520 | The problem with doing that is one, it's very transparent.

00:21:52.440 | And two, sometimes the person's like,

00:21:54.000 | "Oh yeah, you know, I'm thirsty too."

00:21:55.360 | And now you're walking and talking more.

00:21:57.080 | So again, my friend Rachel has this great way of doing it.

00:22:00.360 | She calls it the white flag approach

00:22:02.600 | and not white flag like I surrender.

00:22:04.600 | If you know anything about auto racing,

00:22:06.480 | before the final lap, they'll wave a white flag

00:22:09.400 | to signal to everybody that this is the final lap.

00:22:12.160 | So Chris, if you and I are having a chit-chat,

00:22:14.040 | small talk conversation, I might say,

00:22:15.720 | "Hey, there's some people over there I wanna speak with.

00:22:17.560 | But before I go, I'm really curious for you to tell me more

00:22:20.880 | about the last job you had,

00:22:22.280 | 'cause we started talking about it.

00:22:23.520 | You share more with me."

00:22:24.760 | At the end of that, I say, "That's really fascinating.

00:22:26.800 | Thank you so much for the conversation.

00:22:28.520 | I'm gonna head over there and meet my friends."

00:22:30.160 | It's a nice, polite way to exit.

00:22:32.160 | You're not surprised.

00:22:33.400 | I previewed that I'm going over there.

00:22:35.600 | You're able to plan for what you're gonna do next.

00:22:38.600 | So you're not just left there going, "Okay, now what?"

00:22:40.640 | So it's a very elegant way

00:22:42.440 | to politely leave a conversation.

00:22:44.280 | So essentially you signal you're leaving,

00:22:46.160 | you dive deeper into something that was said,

00:22:48.400 | and then you close it off with gratitude and move on.

00:22:50.760 | It works well.

00:22:51.600 | I've used it ever since I learned it.

00:22:52.720 | - Sounds like something I'd wanna use all the time.

00:22:54.200 | 'Cause I think often if you're like,

00:22:55.560 | "Oh, I need to go here."

00:22:56.640 | It's a little bit of a snub that's like,

00:22:58.080 | "This isn't interesting."

00:22:59.320 | But in this context, you're like,

00:23:00.520 | "I need to do this thing,

00:23:01.400 | but actually this is so interesting.

00:23:03.320 | I'm not gonna do it yet.

00:23:04.720 | Could you give me a little bit more?"

00:23:05.800 | - That's right.

00:23:06.640 | It's right.

00:23:07.480 | It's a very polite way.

00:23:08.320 | And I've learned some really amazing things

00:23:10.080 | in that last moment.

00:23:11.400 | Because people know it's ending.

00:23:13.760 | So they wanna share the key stuff, the cool stuff.

00:23:16.160 | So it's really interesting to do that.

00:23:17.680 | - And I guess while we're on this topic

00:23:19.120 | of conversations with people, small talk,

00:23:21.000 | is there anything you do

00:23:21.960 | when people are just talking too much,

00:23:23.840 | but you kind of wanna...

00:23:25.160 | I mean, I guess if the goal is to listen,

00:23:26.560 | maybe you just let them.

00:23:27.600 | But especially if there's three or four people there,

00:23:30.120 | I wonder if there's a tactic.

00:23:31.560 | - Yeah.

00:23:32.400 | And I'm glad you're asking this generically

00:23:33.640 | and not so I'm giving you a tip you'll use against me

00:23:35.880 | because I know I talk a lot sometimes.

00:23:37.840 | So the first thing, I wanna take a step back.

00:23:40.160 | And those people who study conversation

00:23:42.080 | have identified two types of conversational turns.

00:23:45.200 | If you think about it, a conversation is turn-taking.

00:23:47.480 | One type of turn is a supporting turn.

00:23:50.080 | It's where I support what you're saying.

00:23:51.560 | In other words, I ask you to say more about it.

00:23:53.480 | And the other is a shifting turn,

00:23:55.120 | where I take what you're talking about, the topic,

00:23:56.960 | and move it to something of my interest.

00:23:58.800 | So imagine you and I are talking and you say,

00:24:00.720 | "Hey, I just went to Hawaii."

00:24:02.080 | A supporting response would be,

00:24:03.560 | "Oh, really? Which island did you go to?"

00:24:05.440 | A shifting response would be,

00:24:06.640 | "Oh, I just went to Costa Rica."

00:24:08.240 | So you see how one supports, one shifts.

00:24:10.400 | Supporting responses get people to keep talking.

00:24:13.520 | Shifting responses stop people from talking.

00:24:16.120 | What the research suggests is you want to do

00:24:18.640 | about three quarters to two thirds of supporting,

00:24:21.440 | and then one quarter to one third shifting.

00:24:24.240 | Because if you never shift,

00:24:25.440 | if all you do is keep asking questions and probing,

00:24:27.400 | it seems like you're hiding something,

00:24:28.880 | you're interrogating somebody.

00:24:30.280 | But if all you do is talk about yourself,

00:24:32.160 | then you're not really having a conversation.

00:24:33.920 | So the first bit of advice that I have

00:24:35.760 | that answers your question is be mindful of

00:24:38.080 | if you're encouraging the other person to talk, right?

00:24:40.600 | So sometimes the person's talking a lot

00:24:42.560 | 'cause you're encouraging it.

00:24:43.440 | If you're in a group and one person's dominating,

00:24:45.520 | I think the single best thing to use is a paraphrase

00:24:48.400 | to get the conversation back on track or take the floor away.

00:24:51.280 | I advise people who are moderators or facilitators

00:24:54.120 | in a work setting to use this same technique.

00:24:56.240 | Highlight something of value the person has said,

00:24:58.440 | name it, and then move on to something else.

00:25:00.560 | So if we're talking about your vacation to Hawaii

00:25:02.560 | and you keep going on about how great it was,

00:25:04.320 | making me really jealous, I might say,

00:25:06.200 | yeah, it sounds like you were able to relax a lot.

00:25:08.400 | In fact, I love relaxing by reading a book.

00:25:11.280 | I'm curious, what do the rest of you do to relax?

00:25:13.320 | So you see that I've commented on something you said

00:25:15.320 | and gave credence to it, I valued it,

00:25:17.160 | but then I move it away from you.

00:25:18.920 | It's the politest way I know to shut people up.

00:25:21.280 | - Now I'm like, oh, I have all these tactics,

00:25:23.120 | but like, am I walking into a conversation

00:25:25.160 | reviewing my guy?

00:25:26.200 | Like, is it just something that over time,

00:25:28.120 | practice and practice, it becomes natural?

00:25:30.080 | - So, I mean, the bottom line in all of this,

00:25:32.080 | and this is the big counterintuitive takeaway,

00:25:34.400 | I think, from my book is that you actually have to practice

00:25:36.680 | and prepare to be spontaneous.

00:25:38.280 | And when you hear that, you say, well, wait a minute,

00:25:39.720 | that sounds weird.

00:25:40.560 | But if you think about many things in your life,

00:25:42.120 | if you've ever played a sport before,

00:25:43.680 | you probably practiced, you probably did drills.

00:25:46.320 | And it was through those practice and drills

00:25:48.200 | that allowed you in the game to be flexible and agile.

00:25:51.320 | Same thing if you're a jazz musician,

00:25:53.240 | you don't just play any note or chord,

00:25:55.000 | you actually leverage notes and chords

00:25:57.360 | that you've practiced before.

00:25:58.840 | So you do have to do some practice with this.

00:26:00.880 | It could be a lot of practice, could be a little,

00:26:02.640 | it really depends, it depends on the circumstance.

00:26:04.920 | But yes, you will get better by virtue of doing it.

00:26:07.400 | I certainly, my intent is not for people to go in

00:26:09.640 | with a notebook and examine everything they're doing

00:26:11.920 | in their interactions.

00:26:12.920 | It's just knowing a little bit about this

00:26:15.080 | can really help free you up

00:26:16.360 | and you'll start noticing things

00:26:17.640 | and you'll start finding certain things work well for you.

00:26:20.080 | My mother-in-law had a black belt in small talk.

00:26:23.320 | She was amazing.

00:26:24.240 | She's from the Midwest, she would come out and visit.

00:26:26.160 | By the time she got off the plane,

00:26:27.440 | she'd have three new friends and have lunch dates

00:26:30.080 | for when she got back home.

00:26:31.240 | And that's because of her superpower,

00:26:33.200 | which was to really listen

00:26:34.680 | and she had a three word amazing phrase.

00:26:37.480 | She would simply say, "Tell me more."

00:26:39.760 | And I asked her, I said,

00:26:40.600 | "Tell me more about how you learned to do tell me more."

00:26:42.480 | And she said over the years of just asking people,

00:26:45.120 | she learned by saying, "Tell me more,"

00:26:47.080 | people would open up and share more

00:26:49.040 | and feel that she was really interested, which she was.

00:26:52.000 | So you'll find your own way.

00:26:53.440 | Tell me more might not work for you,

00:26:55.120 | you might have some other way,

00:26:56.400 | but the more you do it, you find your big unlock.

00:26:58.960 | - Now, a question like tell me more feels like

00:27:01.080 | it's very easy, it's not very threatening,

00:27:03.120 | you're already in the middle of a conversation.

00:27:04.800 | Let's rewind to before you've gotten into that

00:27:07.360 | and someone poses a question at you

00:27:09.000 | and you feel maybe you're caught off guard

00:27:11.640 | and you wanna think about it

00:27:12.480 | like maybe reframing as an opportunity.

00:27:14.200 | I know this is kind of comes to reframing the circumstances,

00:27:16.800 | which we're back to number three,

00:27:18.200 | but maybe that'll be our segue.

00:27:19.720 | - Yeah, so if somebody asks a question

00:27:21.880 | or any situation where you're caught off guard,

00:27:24.120 | you need to give yourself a little time

00:27:25.640 | and there are three ways to do it.

00:27:26.640 | One is to pause.

00:27:27.600 | Many of us feel a lot of pressure to respond right away

00:27:30.960 | and we don't need to, you can take a beat,

00:27:32.640 | you can just take a pause for a second and then respond.

00:27:34.960 | We feel like there's this time to respond pressure

00:27:37.920 | and you can take a moment.

00:27:39.360 | Second, you could ask a clarifying question

00:27:41.400 | that buys you some time as well.

00:27:42.800 | It also helps make sure

00:27:44.160 | that you're going to respond appropriately.

00:27:45.960 | And then finally, you can leverage a paraphrase.

00:27:47.920 | So if you ask me a question or ask me for feedback,

00:27:50.280 | I can paraphrase, not like a five-year-old

00:27:52.760 | who repeats verbatim what you say,

00:27:54.840 | but I could highlight something in the question

00:27:56.720 | or the ask that you've had of me.

00:27:58.680 | And again, that buys me time.

00:28:00.120 | Both asking questions and paraphrasing

00:28:02.520 | are lower order cognitive skills.

00:28:04.960 | In other words, we can do other things

00:28:07.080 | while paraphrasing in questioning.

00:28:09.000 | So there are ways to buy yourself time

00:28:11.040 | to get your feet under you so that you can respond.

00:28:14.200 | - Are there things you would also do in that moment

00:28:16.040 | if you're feeling very caught off guard and you're not sure?

00:28:19.040 | Or maybe one thing that I think is interesting

00:28:21.360 | as I observe my three-year-old,

00:28:23.080 | if I ask her a question and she doesn't know the answer,

00:28:25.320 | she just says, "I don't know."

00:28:26.400 | And like so often, I think as adults,

00:28:28.520 | we feel, especially now that I'm a parent,

00:28:30.240 | I feel obliged to give an answer.

00:28:32.320 | And I think in many cases, it's probably just fine to say,

00:28:35.760 | you know what, I'm not really an expert on that topic.

00:28:37.600 | I don't have an answer.

00:28:38.440 | Like, is that the thing we need to learn

00:28:40.200 | if we feel like we're caught off guard

00:28:41.680 | and we're too defensive?

00:28:42.520 | Maybe the answer is you don't have to answer.

00:28:44.280 | - So I think that's true,

00:28:45.480 | but I wanna go back to the fact that it's lovely

00:28:47.280 | that you have a young child

00:28:48.560 | who actually wants to hear your answers.

00:28:50.280 | I have teenagers and they are not interested in my answers,

00:28:53.120 | nor do they think I have a good answer to their questions.

00:28:55.720 | My son the other day had to do a presentation in class.

00:28:58.200 | I said, "Oh, is there anything I can do to help you?"

00:28:59.640 | And he's like, "No, what do you know about this stuff?"

00:29:01.440 | And I'm like, "This is one thing I actually know a lot about."

00:29:04.320 | And it's just funny.

00:29:05.560 | Yes, we do not always have to respond.

00:29:07.360 | And the expectation that we will always have

00:29:09.320 | the right answer or an answer can get us in trouble.

00:29:12.040 | If you do not know the answer, my advice is this.

00:29:14.680 | You say, "I don't know.

00:29:16.040 | I'm going to look to find out.

00:29:17.520 | I will get back to you."

00:29:18.720 | And if you have a hunch or an inkling,

00:29:20.160 | say my hunch or inkling is it's this.

00:29:21.980 | We actually know of research,

00:29:23.320 | or I know of research that has shown

00:29:24.880 | that doing that bolsters your credibility in some cases

00:29:28.100 | more than actually giving the right answer.

00:29:30.000 | Because one, you're being honest.

00:29:32.280 | Two, you're demonstrating tenacity

00:29:34.200 | and that you're gonna go find the answer.

00:29:35.880 | And three, you're demonstrating that you can think

00:29:38.120 | beyond what you know by saying my hunch or inkling is.

00:29:40.880 | So sometimes saying, "I don't know,"

00:29:42.920 | and then explaining how you'll follow up

00:29:44.720 | actually gives more value to your credibility

00:29:48.140 | than actually just answering the question.

00:29:49.640 | Now, if you're doing that to every question,

00:29:51.420 | that certainly is a different issue.

00:29:52.960 | But I don't think it's reasonable for everybody

00:29:54.840 | to expect to know every answer to every question.

00:29:57.720 | - Interesting.

00:29:58.560 | And so it's funny 'cause I have a tactic

00:30:00.280 | that as soon as you said what you said

00:30:02.120 | about bolstering credibility, I thought I'd share,

00:30:04.320 | which when we were fundraising for my company,

00:30:06.400 | investors will ask you questions

00:30:07.800 | and you have to give answers.

00:30:08.840 | And there are some questions where the answer is fine

00:30:11.800 | if it's not backed up with data or premeditated.

00:30:14.120 | But there are also some questions that I think

00:30:16.160 | sometimes people give less credibility to

00:30:18.600 | when you're speaking on the spot.

00:30:19.920 | And so a tactic I had was every question

00:30:22.200 | I thought someone could ask,

00:30:23.560 | I created a slide to back up the answer.

00:30:26.000 | And so people would say like,

00:30:27.260 | "Do you think that this product will work at scale?"

00:30:30.200 | Every entrepreneur is gonna answer that question.

00:30:32.440 | Yes, of course.

00:30:33.280 | Here's five reasons why it will.

00:30:34.800 | You know, it always feels like when you're off the cuff

00:30:37.060 | with an answer like that,

00:30:38.080 | people might not believe it.

00:30:39.120 | So I would just jump to the slide

00:30:40.680 | and I won't get into the nuance

00:30:41.780 | of how I found all these slides on the fly,

00:30:43.840 | but I would say, "Actually, yes, I do have an answer."

00:30:45.880 | And then I would point to it.

00:30:47.000 | And I'd basically put myself in the situation

00:30:49.720 | to be caught off guard in advance,

00:30:51.520 | wrote down what I would say.

00:30:53.120 | And that also bolstered the credibility

00:30:55.220 | because people were like, "Oh, if you wrote it down,

00:30:57.360 | it must be more true

00:30:58.520 | than if you just thought about it on the fly."

00:31:00.360 | - Well, and I think it also helped

00:31:02.040 | because you actually took the time to think about it

00:31:04.800 | and anticipate their questions.

00:31:06.080 | We are really impressed when people focus on our needs

00:31:09.560 | in our communication.

00:31:10.720 | And you just gave a great example

00:31:13.080 | of something I really believe in,

00:31:14.800 | which is the practice and preparation to be spontaneous.

00:31:17.720 | You thought in advance of what are some

00:31:20.080 | of the specific questions or challenges

00:31:21.840 | that people would bring up?

00:31:22.840 | And you probably found those questions

00:31:24.320 | based on your experience.

00:31:25.720 | Maybe you asked people, maybe you did some research.

00:31:28.200 | You can use generative AI and say,

00:31:30.100 | "I'm pitching a product of this to these people.

00:31:32.320 | What are questions they might ask?"

00:31:33.800 | So there's a lot you can do to prepare.

00:31:36.000 | And you went one step further

00:31:37.320 | and created actual content to support it.

00:31:39.320 | That's awesome.

00:31:40.240 | Stockpiling potential data

00:31:42.240 | or information you can use is great.

00:31:44.240 | Think of it this way.

00:31:45.080 | A structure is a recipe,

00:31:46.440 | and we haven't really talked a lot about structure,

00:31:48.080 | but a structure is a recipe.

00:31:49.480 | And the stockpiled information,

00:31:51.200 | like your pre-prepared slides, are the ingredients.

00:31:53.800 | So all I have to do is assemble.

00:31:55.760 | I can be a really good cook

00:31:57.080 | if I have a good recipe and good ingredients.

00:31:59.520 | I can do that.

00:32:00.400 | And that's what we're asking people to do

00:32:02.140 | in spontaneous situations.

00:32:03.600 | And it sounds like you did that well.

00:32:04.960 | I mean, we did raise the money.

00:32:06.000 | The company didn't work out,

00:32:07.080 | but at least the pitch worked.

00:32:08.400 | That's right.

00:32:09.240 | Well, that's part of the battle.

00:32:10.320 | For the podcast, and really just because I like it,

00:32:13.720 | I read a lot of finance news, probably too much,

00:32:16.520 | but it never gets old seeing one of my partners in the news,

00:32:19.000 | and even better when it's because a million-dollar Banksy

00:32:21.800 | got everyday investors a 32% net return.

00:32:25.120 | But I'm not talking about Banksy handing out cash.

00:32:27.280 | I'm talking about today's sponsor, Masterworks,

00:32:29.720 | the art investing platform

00:32:31.040 | that's sold over $45 million worth of art to date

00:32:34.480 | with the proceeds delivered to investors just like us.

00:32:37.400 | And I say us because I've been investing with Masterworks

00:32:40.080 | for over a year.

00:32:41.120 | And while a 32% net return is obviously fantastic,

00:32:44.880 | every one of their sales to date

00:32:46.360 | has returned a net profit to their investors.

00:32:48.560 | And from a recent Bank of America report,

00:32:50.960 | quote, "Despite volatility in capital markets,

00:32:53.400 | "art prices have outpaced 2019 highs,

00:32:56.080 | "and valuations have risen steadily."

00:32:58.560 | So come join Masterworks' more than 700,000 users.

00:33:02.040 | And when you do, please support the show

00:33:04.080 | and get yourself priority access to the platform

00:33:06.520 | by going to allthehacks.com/masterworks.

00:33:09.760 | That's allthehacks.com/masterworks for special access.

00:33:14.120 | See important Regulation A disclosures

00:33:15.920 | at masterworks.com/cd.

00:33:18.040 | My fitness routine this year had a few rocky starts,

00:33:23.440 | but I am back into it now.

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00:33:49.000 | But it's not just for men.

00:33:50.080 | My wife is obsessed with Viori as much as I am.

00:33:53.320 | While my personal favorite

00:33:54.480 | will probably always be the Sunday Performance Joggers,

00:33:56.880 | I have at least three pairs.

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00:34:00.800 | and three or four Strato Tech Tees, and I'm loving them.

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00:34:20.480 | Honestly, I think Viori is an investment in your happiness.

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00:34:44.520 | I just wanna thank you quick for listening to

00:34:48.080 | and supporting the show.

00:34:49.560 | Your support is what keeps this show going.

00:34:52.400 | To get all of the URLs, codes, deals, and discounts

00:34:55.920 | from our partners, you can go to allthehacks.com/deals.

00:35:00.440 | So please consider supporting those who support us.

00:35:03.680 | - I wanna get off of mindset,

00:35:04.960 | but the last thing was on listening.

00:35:07.040 | We've talked a bit about it,

00:35:08.280 | but I just wanna go a little deeper

00:35:09.720 | because it seems like it's really important.

00:35:11.520 | Especially, I've had lots of conversations on the podcast

00:35:13.920 | about negotiating and why listening can be really valuable.

00:35:17.040 | Any other tactics for people to become better listeners?

00:35:20.440 | - Well, the first thing is to acknowledge

00:35:21.680 | that we're not good at it, right?

00:35:22.920 | Most of us don't listen well enough.

00:35:24.520 | We listen just enough to get the gist

00:35:26.480 | of what somebody is saying.

00:35:27.640 | And then we start judging, evaluating,

00:35:29.080 | rehearsing, planning.

00:35:30.120 | So we all need to get better at listening.

00:35:32.040 | And believe me, my wife reminds me all the time

00:35:34.720 | that I need to practice what I teach.

00:35:36.760 | So we can all still work on it.

00:35:38.120 | I like to tell people, when you're listening,

00:35:40.360 | listen for what is the bottom line,

00:35:42.680 | the crux of what somebody is saying.

00:35:44.320 | Because when you listen more deeply,

00:35:46.400 | you will actually attend to more information.

00:35:48.880 | And in the book of my chapter all about listening,

00:35:50.920 | I borrow from one of my colleagues at the business school.

00:35:53.360 | His name is Collins Dobbs.

00:35:54.880 | And he teaches a class on crucial conversations.

00:35:57.440 | And he has this methodology he likes.

00:35:59.320 | With his permission, I borrowed it for listening.

00:36:01.480 | And it's three things, pace, space, grace.

00:36:04.400 | We, as you well know, live in a frenetic world.

00:36:07.080 | Lots are going on.

00:36:08.120 | We've got lots of demands on our time.

00:36:09.960 | You have to slow down to listen well.

00:36:12.120 | You can't listen well while running around.

00:36:14.560 | So you have to slow down, slow the pace.

00:36:16.640 | Second, you have to make the space.

00:36:18.320 | Sometimes it's physical space.

00:36:19.840 | Get to a place where you can actually hear

00:36:21.880 | what the person is saying.

00:36:22.960 | But more importantly is mental space.

00:36:24.960 | Our head is so cluttered with our judgments,

00:36:26.920 | our evaluations, our thinking about what's next.

00:36:29.200 | I have to be present.

00:36:30.440 | And I have to give myself mental attention

00:36:32.760 | to focus on what you're saying.

00:36:34.000 | And then finally, grace.

00:36:35.000 | I have to give myself permission

00:36:36.560 | to not only listen to what you're saying,

00:36:38.240 | but notice the context

00:36:39.680 | and how you're interacting in the context.

00:36:41.640 | And also to listen to my intuition.

00:36:44.320 | I've been around a while.

00:36:46.000 | I have some past experience.

00:36:47.920 | What is that telling me based on what you're saying?

00:36:50.200 | Allow me to give you a quick example, Chris.

00:36:52.080 | Imagine you and I come out of a meeting

00:36:54.040 | and you turn to me and you say,

00:36:55.120 | Matt, how do you think that went?

00:36:56.560 | If I'm listening superficially,

00:36:58.080 | I hear Chris wants feedback.

00:36:59.400 | Well, Chris, I think you screwed it up here.

00:37:00.920 | I think we could have done better here.

00:37:02.040 | Next time we should do this.

00:37:03.240 | But had I really listened with pace, space, grace,

00:37:05.600 | slowed down, really focused,

00:37:07.400 | allowed myself some intuition,

00:37:08.720 | I might've noticed that you came out

00:37:10.240 | the back door of the room.

00:37:11.360 | I came out the front door.

00:37:12.480 | You were looking down

00:37:13.520 | and not having your normal animated voice

00:37:15.600 | when you asked me for the feedback.

00:37:17.000 | Maybe, just maybe what you wanted was not feedback,

00:37:20.600 | but support because you didn't feel it went so well.

00:37:22.920 | But I didn't pay any attention to that.

00:37:24.720 | And I just itemized all the things that you did wrong.

00:37:27.320 | Now I've made you feel worse.

00:37:29.080 | Perhaps had I been listening more intently,

00:37:31.320 | I might've come back to you and said,

00:37:32.680 | would you like me to share some thoughts

00:37:33.840 | on what we could do better next time?

00:37:35.160 | Or do you want me just to listen to what you have to say?

00:37:37.520 | And then I make it a choice for you.

00:37:39.200 | So that's why listening is so important

00:37:41.160 | because we can be wrong with what's needed in the moment

00:37:43.840 | if we're not really paying attention.

00:37:45.640 | - I like the clarifying, you know, you could say,

00:37:47.560 | are you more interested in what went well,

00:37:49.040 | what didn't go, whatever the question is,

00:37:50.480 | give them a little more guidance,

00:37:51.840 | which helps if you weren't listening

00:37:53.560 | and you realize after the fact,

00:37:55.280 | oh crap, I wasn't listening, but I want to,

00:37:57.600 | I guess there's still ability to recover

00:37:59.440 | with some clarifying questions.

00:38:01.000 | - Absolutely, and it shows you really want to connect.

00:38:03.840 | - So let's recap mindset.

00:38:05.480 | - The four mindset steps are first, manage anxiety,

00:38:08.320 | tame that anxiety beast.

00:38:09.760 | The second is about connection over perfection.

00:38:12.720 | It's about dialing down the judgment

00:38:15.000 | and evaluation we do when we speak.

00:38:17.080 | The third step is seeing these speaking as opportunities,

00:38:20.760 | not threats and challenges.

00:38:22.200 | And then finally listen for the bottom line

00:38:24.720 | of what the person is saying.

00:38:25.880 | If you do those four things,

00:38:27.320 | you will be in a much better position

00:38:29.040 | to speak in the moment.

00:38:30.680 | - I really wish we had talked about this last week,

00:38:32.680 | but alas, here we are.

00:38:34.120 | - I'm sure you did so well last week

00:38:35.720 | that you're gonna have an opportunity again

00:38:37.360 | this coming week.

00:38:38.320 | - Okay, so let's move on.

00:38:39.360 | Let's talk about messaging.

00:38:40.760 | - Absolutely, so messaging is really, really important.

00:38:44.080 | It's all about structure.

00:38:46.040 | Our brains are not wired for lists and detail.

00:38:49.640 | You know, when's the last time

00:38:50.680 | you heard somebody ramble, Chris?

00:38:51.960 | Probably really recently.

00:38:53.240 | Hopefully not at this moment, right?

00:38:54.880 | And how's it feel when somebody rambles?

00:38:56.560 | It's stressful.

00:38:57.440 | It's like, why the heck is the person saying this?

00:38:59.520 | Why are they saying it in this way?

00:39:01.000 | So we either have to intently study what's being said

00:39:03.640 | or we just give up.

00:39:04.520 | We're like, that's it, I'm not gonna pay attention.

00:39:06.160 | Our brains are wired for structure.

00:39:08.040 | Something that has a beginning, a middle, and an end.

00:39:10.520 | A logical connection of ideas.

00:39:13.200 | Let me give you an example of a structure

00:39:14.640 | and I'm happy to talk about lots of other structures.

00:39:16.560 | The whole second part of the book

00:39:17.960 | assigns a particular structure

00:39:19.800 | to all these different types

00:39:21.400 | of spontaneous speaking situations.

00:39:23.200 | Because my goal is that everybody has at least one tool

00:39:26.280 | in their toolkit so they can pull it out

00:39:28.600 | if they need to in a situation

00:39:30.280 | where they don't know what to do or what to say.

00:39:31.840 | The one I'll share with you

00:39:32.720 | because you've talked about pitching before,

00:39:34.360 | it's a very common one.

00:39:35.560 | Problem, solution, benefit.

00:39:37.560 | I bet every pitch you ever did or heard

00:39:40.360 | started with, here's this issue,

00:39:41.960 | here's how we think we can address it or make it better,

00:39:44.280 | and here's the benefit if we do so.

00:39:45.880 | Sometimes it's not an issue,

00:39:47.080 | sometimes it's an opportunity.

00:39:48.400 | Nothing's wrong, but we could make it better.

00:39:50.400 | So by using problem, solution, benefit,

00:39:52.640 | you have a logical connection of ideas,

00:39:54.880 | you build in connection and transition

00:39:56.920 | among the different points.

00:39:58.280 | Now that you understand the problem, how do we solve it?

00:40:00.640 | And it keeps everybody together and packages it up nicely.

00:40:03.720 | And for you, as the communicator,

00:40:06.120 | it helps you focus on your message.

00:40:08.040 | So when you say something,

00:40:09.000 | you could say it in lots of different ways.

00:40:10.400 | If I know I'm gonna say it, problem, solution, benefit,

00:40:12.600 | it helps me focus.

00:40:13.680 | So having a structure is critical to your communication.

00:40:18.240 | - My mind went wild when you just said that,

00:40:20.200 | 'cause I was like, wow, if I just had the foresight

00:40:22.920 | before talking about anything, really,

00:40:24.600 | to just frame it in a new way, it would be really powerful.

00:40:28.120 | Are there other quick, easy structures

00:40:30.280 | that you could mention?

00:40:31.120 | We don't need to go into all the detail,

00:40:32.640 | but just to inspire us.

00:40:34.040 | - I'm glad you had that epiphany.

00:40:35.360 | And you know what?

00:40:36.200 | I have a book that can help you solve that problem.

00:40:38.560 | So yeah, I mean, that's really what it is.

00:40:40.240 | It's really interesting the reactions people have

00:40:42.040 | when I talk to them about this.

00:40:43.200 | People are like, that structure thing is fantastic.

00:40:45.760 | And then when we talk about the next step,

00:40:47.200 | if we get into the focus thing,

00:40:48.800 | there are a couple of things I'll share about focus

00:40:50.360 | that really, and people are like,

00:40:51.200 | oh, I'm gonna be much more clear and concise now.

00:40:53.320 | So there are a couple other structures.

00:40:54.840 | My favorite structure,

00:40:55.680 | and the one I call the Swiss army knife of all structures,

00:40:57.900 | 'cause you can use it in so many circumstances,

00:41:00.000 | is three questions.

00:41:01.520 | What, so what, now what?

00:41:03.420 | If you answer those three questions,

00:41:04.920 | you have a nicely structured response.

00:41:07.200 | Let me give you more detail.

00:41:08.600 | The what is your idea, your product, your service,

00:41:10.880 | your offering, your notion.

00:41:12.520 | So what is, why is it relevant or important to the person

00:41:15.080 | or people you're talking to?

00:41:16.200 | And the now what is what comes next?

00:41:17.880 | Maybe it's set up a meeting, take questions,

00:41:20.200 | give some feedback, whatever.

00:41:21.880 | So let me share with you how this could work.

00:41:23.720 | Imagine I'm doing an update.

00:41:25.160 | Many people have update meetings they have to do.

00:41:27.600 | They have to say what they're working on, et cetera.

00:41:29.720 | The what is your update.

00:41:31.680 | The so what is why it's important,

00:41:33.240 | and the now what is what you're going to do next.

00:41:35.080 | It's packaged nicely.

00:41:36.480 | If you ask me for feedback,

00:41:38.080 | and this time you really want it,

00:41:39.680 | I could give you feedback as the what.

00:41:41.480 | The so what is why it's important,

00:41:42.920 | and then the now what is what I'd like you to do differently.

00:41:44.920 | So imagine we come out of that very same meeting,

00:41:47.000 | and this time you really want feedback.

00:41:48.360 | I might say, you did a great job,

00:41:50.160 | except when you talked about the implementation plan.

00:41:53.000 | You spoke quickly and you didn't go into as much depth

00:41:56.400 | as you did the other parts.

00:41:57.720 | When you speak quickly without giving depth,

00:41:59.800 | people think you're not as prepared.

00:42:01.480 | Next time, I'd like you to slow down

00:42:03.600 | and include these two specific examples.

00:42:05.840 | That was what, so what, now what, help me package it.

00:42:08.800 | When you're writing an email, I don't know about you,

00:42:10.400 | I get emails and I stare at them.

00:42:11.640 | I'm like, what the heck is this person want?

00:42:13.360 | Make the subject line the now what,

00:42:15.080 | the body of the email is the what, and the so what.

00:42:17.520 | So you can use this structure in so many ways.

00:42:20.720 | I know you're going to ask this question

00:42:22.240 | because I know you think about how,

00:42:24.040 | okay, great, how could I use it?

00:42:25.400 | Practice, and here's how you practice.

00:42:27.400 | After you listen to your favorite podcast,

00:42:29.280 | I want you to pause it, stop it,

00:42:30.960 | and say, what was that about?

00:42:32.200 | Why is it important to me?

00:42:33.520 | Or what can I take away from it?

00:42:34.760 | And then the now what is what can I do with that information?

00:42:37.400 | So by quizzing yourself, you're training that,

00:42:39.520 | your brain to see the world in that structure.

00:42:42.000 | Next time you watch an advertisement on TV,

00:42:44.520 | ask what problem are they solving?

00:42:46.280 | How are they solving it?

00:42:47.360 | And what's the benefit they're saying I'll take from it?

00:42:49.440 | And by seeing it and reflecting on it,

00:42:51.720 | you actually learn to get better at deploying it.

00:42:54.640 | - Interesting, so you could just use this

00:42:56.200 | anytime you're seeing something happen in the world.

00:42:58.280 | And the thing came to mind,

00:42:59.360 | we haven't talked at all about credit card points

00:43:01.080 | or miles or anything.

00:43:01.960 | That's a theme that comes through this show.

00:43:03.960 | And I was just thinking,

00:43:04.840 | oh, if I were telling a friend about it,

00:43:06.480 | I'd say, oh, the problem is, you know,

00:43:08.600 | you don't have a card that optimizes this,

00:43:10.640 | here's the solution, here's the benefit.

00:43:12.520 | I'm already running through examples in my mind,

00:43:15.120 | which maybe isn't the most present way I could be here,

00:43:18.000 | but I blame you for that.

00:43:19.960 | A lot of these examples though, are all professional.

00:43:22.920 | And so I wanna jump to maybe a circumstance

00:43:25.840 | that a lot of people have been put in on the personal side.

00:43:28.200 | It's like, well, what if I'm giving a toast?

00:43:29.720 | What if I'm, you know, doing something at a wedding,

00:43:32.120 | friend's dinner?

00:43:33.000 | How would you think about a framework for that?

00:43:35.440 | - So that's one of the many areas

00:43:37.920 | that I talk about in the second part of the book.

00:43:39.520 | Toasts and tributes are a very common

00:43:41.720 | spontaneous speaking activity.

00:43:43.360 | And we have all witnessed horrific toasts and tributes.

00:43:46.920 | - So many.

00:43:47.760 | - Chris, tell me one thing you've noticed

00:43:48.920 | in seeing different toasts or tributes

00:43:50.520 | that people do wrong.

00:43:51.400 | I'll start, they make it about themselves

00:43:53.160 | and not the event or the person they're toasting.

00:43:55.040 | What's something you've noticed?

00:43:56.240 | - It's just, it keeps going.

00:43:57.440 | It never ends.

00:43:58.280 | - That's right, right.

00:43:59.120 | It's not concise.

00:43:59.960 | - Or they use a lot of inside jokes

00:44:01.400 | that no one in the room understands.

00:44:03.080 | - So we know what a bad toast or tribute looks like.

00:44:05.160 | So I have a structure that I like to encourage people to use

00:44:08.240 | and it has an acronym.

00:44:10.280 | It is WHAT, W-H-A-T.

00:44:13.360 | The W stands for why are we all here?

00:44:15.920 | So when you give a toast,

00:44:16.960 | you have to make sure everybody knows why you're here.

00:44:18.640 | Now, clearly, if you're at a wedding,

00:44:20.280 | you don't have to say we're at a wedding.

00:44:21.560 | People figured it out.

00:44:22.560 | The way people are dressed and what happened.

00:44:24.160 | But if you're at a corporate event

00:44:25.720 | and you're asked to stand up

00:44:27.120 | and give a team a particular tribute for something they did,

00:44:29.960 | you might wanna say why you're speaking right now.

00:44:31.800 | Hey, that team that released that product last week,

00:44:34.000 | really important.

00:44:34.840 | So sometimes you have to make sure everybody knows

00:44:36.960 | what you're giving a tribute to.

00:44:38.360 | The H is for how are you connected?

00:44:40.520 | Now, if you're doing a tribute at work

00:44:42.200 | and you're the boss and you stand up,

00:44:43.520 | you don't have to say I'm the boss.

00:44:44.720 | People know that.

00:44:45.560 | But if you're at a wedding

00:44:46.840 | and you stand up to give a toast,

00:44:47.960 | many people might not know who you are.

00:44:49.560 | You might say I've known the groom for 20 years.

00:44:51.520 | Oh, okay, that's why you're speaking.

00:44:53.080 | So sometimes you have to explain

00:44:54.840 | how you're connected to the event.

00:44:56.480 | Then the next part is an anecdote or two.

00:44:59.000 | And there's some really big advice for those anecdotes.

00:45:01.800 | One, make them clear and concise.

00:45:03.960 | Make them relevant to everybody.

00:45:05.520 | Obviously keep them appropriate.

00:45:07.440 | And that will help you be really tight and clear.

00:45:09.480 | So you tell a story or two.

00:45:11.360 | And then the T stands for thank you or toast.

00:45:13.800 | So at a wedding, I might say cheers

00:45:15.600 | and you actually give a toast.

00:45:16.640 | If I am giving a tribute at work or something like that,

00:45:19.400 | I might say thank you to the team.

00:45:21.080 | I look forward to seeing the future success.

00:45:23.320 | So why are you here?

00:45:24.640 | How are you connected?

00:45:25.800 | Anecdote or two, thank you or toast.

00:45:27.800 | And if you follow that roadmap,

00:45:29.560 | it gets you through toasts very effectively.

00:45:31.640 | - I don't have a toast coming up.

00:45:33.000 | Maybe I just need to create one.

00:45:34.440 | - There you go.

00:45:35.280 | You can toast to the success of our episode together.

00:45:37.280 | - Exactly.

00:45:38.120 | Where does humor fit into any of this?

00:45:40.040 | We haven't talked about humor at all,

00:45:41.480 | but I feel like it's something that when it happens,

00:45:44.240 | it makes a conversation better,

00:45:45.840 | but when it's forced, it makes a conversation awkward.

00:45:48.520 | - Absolutely.

00:45:49.360 | So I call humor graduate school version engagement.

00:45:52.840 | You really have to be careful.

00:45:54.680 | I wanna give a tangential advice.

00:45:56.680 | Two of my colleagues at Stanford's Business School,

00:45:58.720 | Jennifer Ocker and Naomi Bagdonas,

00:46:00.600 | wrote a book called "Humor Seriously"

00:46:02.560 | and they teach a class on the same topic.

00:46:04.200 | It is the only business book I have ever read

00:46:06.600 | where I was laughing out loud.

00:46:08.320 | And they give very good advice about how to be funny,

00:46:11.200 | how to find your own sense of humor

00:46:13.240 | that's appropriate for work situations.

00:46:16.160 | So anybody interested in it, I think it's a great resource.

00:46:19.400 | Humor, you have to, as you said, you have to be careful.

00:46:21.800 | I am a big fan of focus grouping humor beforehand.

00:46:25.280 | Now I know that sounds a little weird

00:46:26.640 | for somebody who's talking about spontaneous speaking,

00:46:28.600 | but we are not the best judges of our own humor, right?

00:46:31.200 | I think I'm really funny.

00:46:32.360 | The world doesn't always agree with me.

00:46:33.920 | It's in my best interest to say,

00:46:35.560 | hey, I'm going to this event.

00:46:37.480 | I might be put on the spot to speak.

00:46:39.160 | If I were to say this, is that funny?

00:46:40.720 | And then listen to what people say.

00:46:42.400 | So humor is a great way to connect.

00:46:44.320 | It's a way of building what we academics call immediacy.

00:46:47.600 | We feel close to somebody, but if it backfires,

00:46:51.200 | it can really work against you.

00:46:52.480 | I'll give advice that I think Jennifer and Naomi would say.

00:46:54.920 | One, make it about yourself, not about others.

00:46:57.600 | Two, it's about highlighting everyday common things

00:47:00.560 | that we all can experience rather than differences

00:47:03.600 | that people have.

00:47:04.560 | And if you do those two things, your humor

00:47:06.440 | is more likely to not offend and perhaps even be funnier.

00:47:10.040 | I was thinking back about something

00:47:11.720 | that I think you said in the book, which

00:47:13.480 | was that a lot of people think structure is negative,

00:47:15.800 | but you think it sets people free.

00:47:17.320 | Absolutely.

00:47:18.120 | And I'll just share something interesting

00:47:19.560 | that reminded me of budgeting, which

00:47:21.200 | is someone once said people think of budgets as restrictive,

00:47:24.120 | and I see them as making life easier.

00:47:26.400 | I wonder if there are other elements of life

00:47:28.400 | where structure is perceived as being restrictive.

00:47:31.600 | But with a budget, I know a lot of people

00:47:33.360 | who use budgets as a way to say, well, now I

00:47:35.400 | have the permission to spend $20,000 a year on a vacation

00:47:39.240 | or $4,000 a year on electronics, whatever it is.

00:47:42.840 | And because you budgeted it for it,

00:47:44.280 | it actually feels freeing to be able to use it.

00:47:46.640 | I thank you for that, Chris, because I'm going to--

00:47:48.560 | if you don't mind, don't trademark that,

00:47:50.000 | because I'm going to steal that example, because I am often

00:47:52.480 | in situations where I have to say that structure is freeing.

00:47:55.840 | And I have a few examples I always use,

00:47:57.960 | but I'm going to use that budgeting one.

00:47:59.200 | The one I often use is I interviewed somebody

00:48:01.360 | for the book who is a playground designer.

00:48:03.720 | She designs playgrounds for kids.

00:48:05.640 | And I said, it seems counterintuitive to me.

00:48:08.120 | Why not just have an open field, an open space, right?

00:48:10.600 | Kids are really creative.

00:48:11.680 | And she said that's not true.

00:48:13.000 | She said kids actually have more creative play, play longer,

00:48:17.240 | and others observing the play see it as actually

00:48:19.400 | more interesting and fun when there is a play structure,

00:48:22.160 | because it gives them a starting point.

00:48:24.000 | It gives them an anchor point.

00:48:25.400 | If you put kids in an open field and say play,

00:48:27.720 | she said ultimately what they end up doing

00:48:29.440 | is using each other as a play structure,

00:48:31.600 | and people get hurt and in trouble.

00:48:33.360 | So it's an example of where the structure actually

00:48:35.720 | sets you free.

00:48:36.320 | I'll give you another one I often use.

00:48:37.900 | Many people know about improv, improvisation, right?

00:48:40.480 | And you think, well, these people are just making it up

00:48:42.800 | on the spot.

00:48:43.520 | Well, they are generating new ideas,

00:48:45.160 | but they're following very specific rules.

00:48:47.200 | The one everybody knows of is yes and.

00:48:49.200 | No improv person worth their salt

00:48:51.480 | is going to go on a stage and say, oh, I'm grandma.

00:48:53.680 | And the other person is going to say, no, you're not.

00:48:55.220 | You're grandpa.

00:48:56.040 | Absolutely not.

00:48:56.920 | They're like, hi, grandma.

00:48:58.000 | How are you?

00:48:58.720 | Did you make me some cookies?

00:48:59.920 | So they adopt and adapt.

00:49:01.680 | They follow rules.

00:49:02.600 | Yes and.

00:49:03.400 | Make your partner look good.

00:49:04.840 | Sometimes do nothing and just let the scene play out.

00:49:07.800 | There's particular rules, structure

00:49:09.680 | that they follow that allows them to be creative.

00:49:12.680 | So I love your budgeting example.

00:49:14.320 | It's exactly the same point.

00:49:16.000 | I think the same thing is true, by the way,

00:49:17.200 | if you need more examples about sports.

00:49:19.080 | The reason sports are interesting

00:49:20.800 | is because there are rules.

00:49:22.360 | And if there were no rules, it would

00:49:23.880 | be a lot less interesting to watch,

00:49:25.560 | because it would just happen.

00:49:27.000 | And it'd be chaos, right?

00:49:28.040 | You wouldn't know, is that good or bad or whatever?

00:49:29.960 | Yeah, no, I agree.

00:49:30.760 | I think the rules are important.

00:49:32.360 | We just went back and forth on a lot of different things.

00:49:34.800 | We could have been more clear and concise there

00:49:36.680 | and just closed off the messaging one.

00:49:38.240 | So let's talk about focus and how people can bring that

00:49:41.200 | in to kind of close this out.

00:49:42.800 | Yeah, so many of us say more than we need to say.

00:49:46.080 | Growing up, my mother had this saying.

00:49:47.640 | I know she didn't create it, but she said it all the time to me.

00:49:50.320 | And I try to live by it.

00:49:51.400 | Tell me the time.

00:49:52.800 | Don't build me the clock.

00:49:54.720 | Many of us are clock builders.

00:49:56.720 | We say more than we need to say, either

00:49:59.400 | because we want to rationalize and demonstrate the thought

00:50:02.320 | process we went through, or we want to show how smart we are.

00:50:05.200 | People just want to know the time.

00:50:07.000 | In the military, they have the notion bottom line up front.

00:50:09.760 | Tell me what's the crux of what you're saying.

00:50:11.680 | So the question becomes, how do you do that?

00:50:13.720 | Well, you do that first by reminding yourself

00:50:15.960 | of what's most relevant to the audience

00:50:18.080 | and focus your messaging on that.

00:50:19.720 | That in and of itself will make it more clear and concise.

00:50:22.560 | Also, even if it's spontaneous, you

00:50:24.880 | should think about what's my goal in this situation.

00:50:27.360 | And a goal to me has three parts.

00:50:29.080 | What do I want people to know?

00:50:30.320 | How do I want them to feel?

00:50:31.480 | And what do I want them to do?

00:50:32.960 | Know, feel, do.

00:50:34.080 | So when I go into a communication or a situation

00:50:36.520 | where I think I might be asked to be spontaneous,

00:50:38.880 | I think, what's the critical thing I want people to know?

00:50:41.320 | How do I want them to feel?

00:50:42.480 | And what do I want them to do?

00:50:43.880 | And that, again, causes me to focus my communication

00:50:46.680 | and my messaging.

00:50:47.440 | If I don't have a goal, I'm likely to say

00:50:50.440 | a lot more than I need to.

00:50:51.760 | So being focused on the needs of the audience,

00:50:54.480 | having a clear goal helps you focus your messaging.

00:50:57.280 | And then we have to prioritize what we say, the words we use.

00:51:00.640 | We often use very big words when we could use simple words.

00:51:03.920 | We often repeat ourself more than we need to.

00:51:06.400 | So we begin to train ourselves how to actually be

00:51:09.480 | more efficient in what we say.

00:51:11.120 | And here's where paraphrasing can help.

00:51:12.720 | After you read something or listen to something,

00:51:14.720 | ask yourself, what was that about?

00:51:16.520 | And truncate it.

00:51:17.400 | You're training your brain to synthesize and prioritize.

00:51:20.040 | You can look at your text messages.

00:51:21.680 | We don't think about this, but texts

00:51:23.240 | are a form of spontaneous communication.

00:51:25.080 | Many of us don't sit there for hours

00:51:27.000 | thinking about how to respond.

00:51:28.240 | Go back and look through all your texts

00:51:29.960 | and think, how could I have said that more efficiently using

00:51:32.360 | words?

00:51:32.680 | Obviously, using emojis changes the whole thing.

00:51:34.800 | But the point is, you can train your brain to be more efficient,

00:51:38.120 | but you have to practice at it.

00:51:39.440 | And you can practice by summarizing

00:51:41.520 | things you've heard, paraphrasing things

00:51:43.240 | you've said in the past, just as an exercise.

00:51:45.360 | I always ask people tactics and things

00:51:47.360 | that they could do while someone's waiting in line.

00:51:49.160 | Here's a great one.

00:51:49.920 | If you're waiting in line at the grocery store or something,

00:51:52.160 | you could just look through and mentally practice

00:51:54.480 | paraphrasing things you've said in the past, which

00:51:56.840 | will help you in the future.

00:51:58.240 | I would actually challenge you to go one step further.

00:52:00.440 | When you're waiting in line at the grocery store,

00:52:01.840 | there are all those magazines.

00:52:03.160 | Look at the stories of those magazines

00:52:04.920 | and just, if there's one that you know the story about,

00:52:07.320 | paraphrase it.

00:52:08.200 | So you use it.

00:52:09.000 | That's truly spontaneous.

00:52:10.080 | And while you're there, you could make small talk

00:52:12.040 | with the person in front of you.

00:52:12.960 | So you're practicing multiple things simultaneously.

00:52:15.280 | Paraphrase the story to the person.

00:52:17.480 | Have you--

00:52:17.980 | Oh, there you go.

00:52:18.400 | You're setting context, right?

00:52:19.480 | You could say, oh, you know this story as well.

00:52:21.120 | We've set some shared context.

00:52:22.520 | I'll paraphrase it.

00:52:23.360 | If you don't, we'll practice it all.

00:52:25.080 | That's right.

00:52:25.840 | So you're turning a grocery store into a classroom.

00:52:28.880 | I love it.

00:52:29.440 | Somehow I have a feeling that part of what you've taught

00:52:31.720 | is how to turn almost any scenario into a place

00:52:34.480 | where you can practice these tactics.

00:52:36.160 | It sounds like--

00:52:36.840 | Yeah, so much so that my two teenagers say, stop it, dad.

00:52:40.480 | There's two things that we didn't hit on

00:52:42.160 | that I want to come back to.

00:52:43.400 | So one, you briefly mentioned AI.

00:52:45.880 | And as you started saying paraphrasing,

00:52:47.840 | I was thinking, well, gosh, that seems like something

00:52:49.800 | that software does.

00:52:50.840 | Does that take away from my ability to learn?

00:52:53.000 | There's a browser I use called Arc.

00:52:55.120 | And now any time you hover over a link,

00:52:57.520 | the AI in the browser will just summarize the page

00:53:00.720 | before you even click on it, which is great.

00:53:02.680 | But now I'm wondering, how can any of these tools

00:53:06.000 | help in this process?

00:53:07.680 | Well, so I think the jury is still

00:53:09.320 | out on the impact of generative AI on communication.

00:53:11.800 | I, for one, am really interested in it.

00:53:13.680 | On the podcast I host, Think Fast, Talk Smart,

00:53:15.880 | I actually interviewed ChatGPT before it had its own voice.

00:53:19.480 | We ran its printed results through a voice synthesizer.

00:53:22.240 | And it was really interesting to hear what

00:53:23.960 | it thought about communication, at least

00:53:25.680 | in the context of spontaneous speaking,

00:53:27.360 | beyond serving up potential prompts for you to respond to.

00:53:30.640 | I think it's a good way to train our brain on how to synthesize.

00:53:33.560 | So I might speak to it or type to it something

00:53:36.440 | I might want to say, and then have

00:53:38.040 | it summarize it and paraphrase and say, oh, that's interesting.

00:53:40.960 | It's really interesting what it's indexing on

00:53:43.000 | and what it's focusing on.

00:53:44.040 | So it's a way of training your brain to see how it works.

00:53:46.920 | It's like a flight simulator.

00:53:48.200 | You do it and you say, oh, OK, now I look at my results

00:53:50.400 | and see how I could have been better or done worse.

00:53:52.520 | So I think AI can definitely be a tool that helps us

00:53:55.320 | in our spontaneous communication.

00:53:57.200 | Do you think it could help with structure?

00:53:58.960 | Could I say, here's a thing I'm trying to do.

00:54:00.920 | Could you give me more structure?

00:54:02.360 | I'm right now thinking about how I might

00:54:04.120 | implore some of these lessons.

00:54:05.760 | I have actually tested that out.

00:54:07.280 | I taught ChatGPT what, so what, now what.

00:54:09.520 | And then I typed in a paragraph, and I said, give this to me

00:54:12.080 | in what, so what, now what.

00:54:13.200 | And it did a pretty good job.

00:54:14.400 | It wasn't perfect, but yeah, you can do that.

00:54:16.480 | And then you can see it.

00:54:17.480 | I'm using this as a teacher in my classes.

00:54:19.920 | I love to give students examples.

00:54:21.520 | I hope you've noticed that I try to give lots of examples

00:54:23.640 | when I teach.

00:54:24.240 | And so I like to give them examples.

00:54:25.720 | But it takes time, especially when they're written examples.

00:54:28.280 | So I'll actually use generative AI.

00:54:30.000 | I'll give it a few examples and say, create a couple others

00:54:32.320 | with these variations.

00:54:33.360 | So I go from having three to now nine.

00:54:35.720 | And now my students see lots of different options.

00:54:38.400 | So there are ways that it can help, certainly.

00:54:40.600 | And then one other one, which is a total aside,

00:54:42.680 | is around filler words.

00:54:44.680 | And I'm curious, as someone who actually

00:54:47.600 | looks at transcripts of my own conversation

00:54:50.000 | and sees the usage of um, you know, like, that's up,

00:54:53.320 | any thoughts on how to remove them or reduce them

00:54:56.800 | in your vocabulary?

00:54:58.320 | So the first and most important is awareness.

00:55:00.440 | You can't change something you're not aware of.

00:55:02.400 | And there are actually tools that can help you.

00:55:04.400 | There are apps you can get on your phone.

00:55:06.120 | One I like a lot is called Like So.

00:55:08.840 | And what it does is it activates your phone's microphone

00:55:11.160 | when you turn it on.

00:55:12.000 | You can code in what words you want it to listen to.

00:55:14.560 | And then it vibrates, bings, or beeps every time you say one.

00:55:18.520 | So then you're aware of it.

00:55:19.720 | And you can look for patterns.

00:55:20.960 | There's another tool that plugs into your browser

00:55:23.000 | for any virtual tool like Zoom, Meet, WebEx, et cetera.

00:55:26.760 | And it only records your voice, not the other voices.

00:55:29.080 | And it'll highlight when you say it.

00:55:30.960 | So you can look for patterns.

00:55:32.480 | For example, I worked with somebody just the other day.

00:55:34.800 | And we saw that before he says a complex technical term,

00:55:37.880 | he will typically say um.

00:55:39.360 | I didn't notice that as somebody who just listens to him.

00:55:41.880 | I just heard a lot of ums.

00:55:43.000 | But the tool helped me see a pattern.

00:55:44.720 | And now he knows every time before he says a technical term

00:55:47.560 | to be more vigilant.

00:55:48.480 | And he's reduced the number of ums considerably.

00:55:50.640 | So awareness building is one of the best ways to do it.

00:55:53.320 | And here's an example of where I think

00:55:54.680 | technology really can help.

00:55:56.320 | - And what was the browser tool or the--

00:55:58.240 | - Oh, it's called poised.com, P-O-I-S-E-D.com.

00:56:02.240 | - Oh, wow.

00:56:03.080 | I'm so glad I asked that question.

00:56:04.200 | I didn't know these tools existed.

00:56:05.760 | I'm gonna check them out.

00:56:06.760 | This has been so great.

00:56:07.680 | I feel like I have a whole list of things to go practice.

00:56:11.160 | I'm gonna go back and re-listen to this

00:56:12.840 | because I did try my best to both stay present

00:56:15.560 | and not take notes.

00:56:16.560 | But now I wish I have.

00:56:17.760 | Where can people get more and go deeper?

00:56:20.960 | - Well, thank you.

00:56:21.800 | So first and foremost, I encourage people to listen

00:56:23.520 | to Think Fast, Talk Smart.

00:56:24.680 | It's a podcast all about communication.

00:56:26.800 | Short form, 20 minutes.

00:56:28.400 | Lots of information I think will help people.

00:56:30.480 | mattabrahams.com, great place to go.

00:56:33.200 | All of my resources.

00:56:34.240 | I have a ton of free stuff out there to help people.

00:56:36.680 | I'm a big user of LinkedIn.

00:56:38.080 | Would love to connect with people that way.

00:56:39.840 | I really appreciate Chris, the conversation.

00:56:41.720 | I loved your comments

00:56:42.920 | and I'm going to borrow your budgeting example.

00:56:45.520 | Thank you.

00:56:46.360 | - You're welcome to have it.

00:56:47.320 | It is not trademarked.

00:56:48.480 | Thank you so much for joining me.

00:56:50.160 | - Thank you.

00:56:51.000 | - Wow, that is definitely one of the episodes

00:56:54.480 | where I know I'm gonna be going back and listening myself,

00:56:57.880 | taking notes so that I can put a lot

00:56:59.800 | of what we discussed into practice.

00:57:01.640 | Thank you so much for listening.

00:57:03.360 | I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

00:57:05.520 | Next week, I've got a whole episode dedicated

00:57:08.000 | to open enrollment.

00:57:09.240 | So if that's something

00:57:10.160 | that you happen to be going through already

00:57:11.920 | and you wanna hold off on Wednesday,

00:57:14.400 | I'm gonna go through everything that I know,

00:57:16.400 | covering all kinds of plans, terminology, how to pick,

00:57:19.360 | how to think about the entire process.

00:57:21.600 | So stay tuned for that.

00:57:23.200 | And if you need to get in touch, podcast@allthehacks.com.

00:57:26.880 | Thank you so much for listening.

00:57:28.320 | I will see you next week.

00:57:29.600 | (upbeat music)

00:57:32.240 | (whooshing)

00:57:34.560 | (birds chirping)