Ep. 247: The Productive Life (w/ Sarah Hart-Unger)

00:00:00.000 | And so that's the it's going to be the deep question we're going to tackle today.

00:00:02.800 | How do I adapt professional productivity techniques to my life outside of work?

00:00:07.880 | I'm Cal Newport, and this is Deep Questions,

00:00:16.580 | the show about living and working deeply in an increasingly distracted world.

00:00:21.120 | I'm here in my deep work HQ, joined as always by my producer, Jesse.

00:00:30.660 | Jesse, interesting observation from my life I wanted to point out.

00:00:34.560 | As you know, I was in a busy period in the sense that I had these

00:00:39.560 | overlapping kind of major deep work intensive deadlines

00:00:45.440 | that I was switching back and forth between for months.

00:00:48.600 | It felt like one after another, always two at a time.

00:00:50.840 | All that's temporarily done.

00:00:53.500 | So like, this is great.

00:00:54.500 | I don't have a major time demand is now out of my life.

00:01:00.100 | It's just doing the loose ends of closing up the semester at Georgetown,

00:01:04.600 | getting my final lectures, grading like this type of thing.

00:01:07.300 | And what I found this last week of having no major hard things to work on

00:01:12.840 | is that the small stuff just ate up all the time.

00:01:16.440 | Really?

00:01:17.680 | And I was ending days feeling rushed and feeling like I was not on top of things,

00:01:22.940 | which is crazy because objectively, the amount of available time probably doubled.

00:01:28.080 | And what I realized was going on is a proto principle type of thing.

00:01:31.940 | I was not structuring my days because I was like taking time off.

00:01:35.840 | I'd come out of all of this intense period.

00:01:37.980 | Like, look, now it's easy.

00:01:39.580 | Go to class, just take care of some things.

00:01:41.540 | And without structure, the small stuff just metastasized and took all the time.

00:01:44.940 | Like you can spend your entire day.

00:01:47.680 | Well, let me go back and forth with this person on email.

00:01:49.940 | Let me think about this.

00:01:50.980 | The time just gets eaten up.

00:01:52.480 | So now I've had to return to wait a second.

00:01:54.280 | Even when you don't have a lot to do, you have to structure your time.

00:01:57.880 | Like you do have a lot to do.

00:01:59.780 | And what you get out of that is you reclaim your free time.

00:02:02.940 | But the only way I can reclaim my free time is to actually be really structured.

00:02:05.840 | And then if I'm really structured, it's like, oh, I'm done by two.

00:02:07.880 | Because I really thought about what's going on.

00:02:10.140 | It's mainly small, but let me consolidate this and push this aside

00:02:12.820 | and handle this real focus and things get done.

00:02:15.440 | But without structure, what I know objectively to be

00:02:19.680 | at half of what I could handle a normal day expanded to take out the full day.

00:02:23.780 | To be structured during your working day.

00:02:26.280 | Working day. Yeah.

00:02:27.180 | During the working day, time block planning.

00:02:28.840 | Yeah. Having having a plan for the day.

00:02:30.780 | And so I'm thinking about this is probably a lot of people's experience

00:02:33.440 | of knowledge work is they're unstructured.

00:02:35.520 | So they're just their day is full and they're busy all the time.

00:02:38.020 | Not realizing they're not actually as busy as they think.

00:02:41.280 | A little amount of stuff will expand to take over large volumes

00:02:46.340 | if it's left free, that we're actually our mental energy

00:02:50.080 | is incredibly diffused if we don't focus it.

00:02:53.340 | Yeah. And our time gets used with an incredible low density

00:02:57.840 | if we're not actually packing carefully.

00:03:00.740 | So it's an interesting observation.

00:03:01.980 | It was a good lesson for me.

00:03:04.180 | Good reminder that intentionality with your time when you work matters

00:03:08.940 | whether or not you're busy or not.

00:03:11.000 | And if anything, I honestly almost dislike these days

00:03:14.940 | where I felt busy and I wasn't really doing much and it was all just small stuff.

00:03:18.480 | I felt more tired and dissatisfied with those days

00:03:22.040 | than I think a really locked in day where I'm working on something hard

00:03:25.400 | and it's kind of stressful, but everything is fitting in place.

00:03:28.280 | You know, there's a lesson in there.

00:03:30.180 | You might have to fit in another book. Yeah.

00:03:32.180 | I I was kind of hinting down that path.

00:03:36.040 | My wife is like, no, just don't do anything for a week.

00:03:39.440 | Don't work on any big project for a week.

00:03:41.540 | I secretly started working on the outline for my next book.

00:03:45.680 | Don't tell anyone that I had to do a little bit of that.

00:03:47.980 | I had to. I had to work on my next book just a little bit.

00:03:50.840 | But one of the things that was happening during this time

00:03:53.620 | is the non work stuff that had been pushed off to the side

00:03:58.920 | a little bit when I was very busy traveling, doing all this other type of stuff.

00:04:01.980 | All has collapsed back in on me. Right.

00:04:04.940 | And I have a large amount of non professional

00:04:10.120 | sort of personal or household tasks that have have piled up

00:04:13.540 | to a pretty big extent. We're talking about.

00:04:16.180 | It's almost comical. I got the whole list, but both our cars need oil.

00:04:21.080 | The lights just all burnt out and stopped working in one of our rooms.

00:04:25.020 | There's an electricity problem.

00:04:26.920 | The master lock on my garden shed.

00:04:29.480 | We lost a key.

00:04:30.940 | And my lawnmower was in there and the grass was getting long

00:04:33.580 | and I couldn't get my lawnmowers.

00:04:34.680 | This is like a locksmith locksmith type of situation.

00:04:37.740 | We have this big pile of boring but ambiguous, time

00:04:41.440 | consuming tasks that our financial advisor need us to do.

00:04:43.780 | It's moving 529s between different states where you have to print all this stuff.

00:04:47.820 | And it's all it's all complicated.

00:04:50.240 | There's tax stuff going on.

00:04:52.880 | There's endless list.

00:04:55.520 | And what got me thinking about this is like, as I came out of this period

00:04:58.740 | of intense professional productivity and I'm realizing, oh, I need to restructure

00:05:02.020 | and get my arms back around during this lower density period,

00:05:04.280 | is that something we don't talk about as much on the show

00:05:07.180 | is how do we successfully take ideas from professional productivity

00:05:11.240 | and apply them to the stuff that happens outside of work?

00:05:14.380 | I mean, the one idea that we have talked about on a regular basis

00:05:18.740 | is that you can't schedule your whole life with the same structure

00:05:23.280 | and systems and intentionality that you maybe tackle your work with.

00:05:26.580 | But as I've learned recently with this giant pile of household stuff on my plate,

00:05:31.080 | it can't be haphazard about it either.

00:05:34.080 | That's a big source of stress or dropping the ball on things.

00:05:36.780 | And so I figured this would be an interesting topic to cover.

00:05:40.120 | How do we think about productivity outside of work?

00:05:42.920 | So then coincidentally, as I was thinking about this topic,

00:05:47.520 | a friend of mine, Sarah Hart Unger pinged me.

00:05:51.460 | So Sarah Hart Unger is a doctor who runs and has run a blog for a long time.

00:05:56.400 | The blog is called The Shoe Box S H U.

00:06:00.700 | It took me I'm embarrassed to admit how long it took me to realize

00:06:03.920 | that shoe stands for Sarah Hart Unger.

00:06:08.260 | But it's a blog. It started as a doctor blog, but became a productivity blog.

00:06:13.000 | Very personal and very focused in particular on productivity outside of work.

00:06:18.500 | When you're a doctor, productivity is its own, like very specific, managed thing.

00:06:22.000 | But it really focused on productivity in life, productivity if you have a family.

00:06:26.660 | So Sarah thinks a lot about that issue.

00:06:29.260 | She also co-hosts the podcast with a friend of the show, Laura Vanderkam,

00:06:34.040 | that talks about these issues.

00:06:35.140 | She also has her own podcast about planners, which is awesome.

00:06:39.800 | I've been on that podcast before talking about the time block planner.

00:06:42.500 | So anyway, she pinged me like, hey, our family is going to be in D.C.

00:06:45.240 | because it's spring break and this is where people come on spring break.

00:06:48.300 | It may be we could podcast like, yeah, come by.

00:06:50.560 | We could podcast in the studio.

00:06:52.160 | And then I realized, oh, that's also our spring break.

00:06:54.400 | And we were going to Utah.

00:06:55.360 | So I said, you know what?

00:06:56.060 | We'll just just call into an episode.

00:06:58.460 | We can do it.

00:06:59.340 | You know, we can do it remote.

00:07:01.500 | But you think and have been writing about productivity outside of work.

00:07:05.400 | Strategies and the unique challenges that presents,

00:07:08.860 | you've thought a lot more about that than me.

00:07:11.360 | So why don't you call into the show and we'll we'll get into that.

00:07:14.820 | And so that's the it's going to be the deep question we're going to tackle today.

00:07:17.600 | How do I adapt professional productivity techniques to my life outside of work?

00:07:22.620 | And Sarah is going to join me in a second and going to help us look into that

00:07:26.360 | from a strategic and philosophical perspective.

00:07:29.860 | Then we'll do some questions that are all about productivity

00:07:32.100 | and organization outside of work.

00:07:34.260 | I want to preview, however, at the end of the show.

00:07:36.860 | I'm going to change gears substantially and actually I'm going to return

00:07:40.720 | to the topic of artificial intelligence, which we talked about on the show,

00:07:43.720 | I believe a few weeks ago now, and I'm going to return

00:07:47.960 | to this topic of artificial intelligence and tackle directly.

00:07:52.020 | How worried should you be about this right now?

00:07:54.700 | What's the right way to think about artificial intelligence and its potential risk?

00:07:58.500 | There's a really interesting article by Tyler Cowen I'm going to use.

00:08:01.220 | There's my foundation.

00:08:02.300 | So stay tuned for that.

00:08:03.460 | At the end of the episode, we're going to do some

00:08:05.560 | we're going to geek out on some stuff.

00:08:08.000 | But first, productivity.

00:08:10.020 | Outside of work with Sarah Hart Unger.

00:08:14.120 | All right, Jesse, let's get Sarah on the line here and get into this.

00:08:17.360 | Sounds good.

00:08:18.920 | All right.

00:08:19.120 | Well, the good news is I have Sarah Hart Unger here to help me

00:08:23.000 | make sense of these issues.

00:08:25.620 | Sarah, thank you for joining the show, calling in and helping me make sense of this topic.

00:08:30.520 | I am happy to.

00:08:32.120 | I love talking about anything planning related or adjacent.

00:08:35.280 | So I thought we would do is before we get into the weeds and God knows

00:08:39.820 | my audience knows I love to get into the weeds, especially when talking productivity.

00:08:43.920 | Let's talk a little bit about your story.

00:08:47.820 | You and I have some parallels, which I think are really interesting

00:08:51.240 | in that we we both started blogging

00:08:54.840 | in what I think of as the heyday of productivity blogging,

00:08:59.060 | which was that first decade of the 2000s.

00:09:02.840 | Tell us a little bit about the first the blog you started,

00:09:06.500 | then why you started it when you started it.

00:09:08.760 | Oh, man, it definitely didn't qualify as a productivity blog in those days.

00:09:13.540 | I began my website in 2004, totally influenced by a friend of mine.

00:09:18.460 | I was in medical school and I just thought it would be cool to temporarily document

00:09:22.500 | part of the phase of my training that I was in.

00:09:24.900 | And then it just turned out that I loved writing about my life.

00:09:28.600 | I loved coming up with clever titles and posts and just kind of kept at it.

00:09:34.300 | My blog has had a lot of different focuses over the years.

00:09:37.260 | I am embarrassed and like cringe when I think of like

00:09:39.660 | sort of like a running health blogger in kind of like the 2007, 2009

00:09:45.200 | heyday of those things.

00:09:46.600 | And then I started getting really interested in productivity.

00:09:49.500 | And I still don't know that I would consider my website a productivity website.

00:09:53.460 | I think my podcasts would definitely fit in that realm.

00:09:57.040 | But it's a life website.

00:09:59.500 | I mean, I write about things that work for me.

00:10:01.400 | I'm very passionate about certain things like planning.

00:10:04.440 | I don't think a lot of people spend enough time

00:10:06.700 | thinking about what they want to do with their lives.

00:10:08.960 | So that's a big focus of what I talk about.

00:10:11.200 | But it's still at its core is a little bit of a personal website as well.

00:10:15.600 | So I don't know if I totally fit in that productivity world there,

00:10:18.600 | but then my podcasts have fit that genre.

00:10:21.340 | Well, I'll say this kind of interesting.

00:10:23.760 | Everyone who writes about these issues says, myself included, will say, look,

00:10:27.160 | I'm not this productivity guru trying to tell you how to do whatever.

00:10:31.300 | I don't think there is anyone who actually qualifies.

00:10:35.000 | No one's actually doing that.

00:10:36.200 | It's interesting.

00:10:36.660 | We all we all qualify of, look, this is just my own thing.

00:10:39.840 | And I'm talking about my own life.

00:10:41.160 | But that's actually what I've come to believe.

00:10:43.460 | That is what productivity discussion is, is about yourself and your life

00:10:47.460 | and how I guess back in that early days, 2006 to 2009,

00:10:52.060 | there were some, I guess, Gawker style life hacker like this is just,

00:10:56.960 | you know, here's here's how to do it. But it's interesting.

00:10:59.240 | It's it's a much more the medium has always been always been pretty personal.

00:11:03.000 | So is that the right timeline? Do I have that right?

00:11:05.100 | Then it's roughly that 07, 08, somewhere around there

00:11:10.000 | where you began talking about things like planning,

00:11:12.340 | like organizing your life on your blog that been around for a while at that point.

00:11:15.700 | I think so. I think it started to bleed in.

00:11:17.880 | And I remember being one of the first people to put little pictures

00:11:20.640 | of like what I was writing in my physical planner and Instagram

00:11:23.800 | wasn't around back then.

00:11:24.800 | So this was like kind of interesting to people like, oh, that's how she,

00:11:28.500 | you know, puts her checklist together or oh, that's how she laid out

00:11:31.680 | her weekly planner. So, yeah, probably around that time.

00:11:35.340 | And at some point, the podcast came.

00:11:37.540 | So, you know, my listeners know we I've known Laura Vanderkam for a while.

00:11:41.200 | Sarah has a co-host, a podcast with Laura, best of both worlds.

00:11:46.800 | And you also have my favorite, a podcast about planners, best laid plans.

00:11:52.500 | When did those enter the scene?

00:11:54.540 | Yes. So I met Laura through my blog and her blog.

00:11:58.780 | I started commenting on hers and she's like this big name writer to me back then.

00:12:02.540 | And then she starts commenting on mine.

00:12:04.700 | And I'm like, oh, my gosh, Laura Vanderkam is reading my blog.

00:12:07.540 | Like what is happening?

00:12:08.840 | And gradually we began to actually get to know each other.

00:12:11.540 | I'm from outside of Philadelphia and she lives there.

00:12:13.800 | So on some trip to see my parents, we ended up having dinner.

00:12:16.460 | And soon after that, I wrote something on my blog about wanting to start a podcast.

00:12:21.660 | And I got an email from her like very quickly after that was like,

00:12:24.940 | do you want to do it with me?

00:12:26.100 | This was 2017.

00:12:27.640 | Best of both worlds was was born.

00:12:29.340 | And now we are 300 episodes strong.

00:12:31.640 | It's all about mostly geared towards women making work and life fit together.

00:12:35.340 | So kind of the intersection of time management, but also work and family.

00:12:38.600 | And it's been such a fun journey to do that with her.

00:12:41.740 | And she's such a fun partner.

00:12:43.600 | Like, I can't wait for you to have her on as well.

00:12:45.600 | She I've learned so much from her through it through the years.

00:12:49.100 | And then best laid plans.

00:12:51.300 | Total pandemic project. I'm in medicine.

00:12:53.400 | It was rough. I needed an outlet and I love planners.

00:12:57.240 | And so I started it thinking I was going to like do planner reviews.

00:13:00.860 | But quickly, I kind of ran out of planners.

00:13:02.700 | And so it became all things planning and planning adjacent.

00:13:05.040 | My last episode was a probably Cal Newport Ian rant about screen time.

00:13:09.240 | So, you know, I cover all things now and it's a really fun pet project.

00:13:13.860 | Although I also still do physical planner reviews as well.

00:13:16.200 | And I can't wait to have your next time block planner.

00:13:18.860 | Oh, yes. Yeah, I'm getting you know, I'm getting the mock up and a few weeks

00:13:23.360 | because we're into the summer.

00:13:25.060 | There's going to be version two.

00:13:26.640 | So stay tuned.

00:13:27.600 | Well, we'll have to geek out about that.

00:13:30.400 | I'll just preview spiral binding.

00:13:32.840 | That's what I'm excited about.

00:13:34.160 | That's what I'm excited about.

00:13:35.560 | And we should mention in terms of your work, you're a pediatric endocrinologist.

00:13:39.800 | Do I have that right?

00:13:41.140 | And so that's a job where endocrinology does that mean you have to have

00:13:45.100 | work within a hospital system because of the equipment or is it outpatient?

00:13:49.760 | What's that actual work like?

00:13:52.500 | Well, there's not much equipment.

00:13:54.760 | So endocrinology is like treats kids with diabetes, thyroid,

00:13:58.340 | you know, short stature, puberty issues, et cetera.

00:14:00.800 | I am a board certified general pediatrician as well, but I specialized after that.

00:14:05.140 | And I am in a kind of medium sized group at a not at a sort of burgeoning

00:14:09.340 | academic hospital in South Florida.

00:14:11.540 | But I don't do research.

00:14:12.380 | I primarily do patient care and I work 60 percent as of last October.

00:14:16.940 | So it's three days a week.

00:14:17.980 | So I can focus on my other pursuits as well.

00:14:20.200 | Very interesting. Very interesting.

00:14:21.600 | OK, so what I want to talk about is going back in time.

00:14:24.440 | You're talking more on your blog.

00:14:27.000 | This is pre podcast, but you're talking more on your blog

00:14:29.280 | about issues around organization, productivity and how it intersects your life.

00:14:33.340 | If I understand, I was reading your about page a little bit.

00:14:36.880 | I think our our timelines of children is very similar.

00:14:40.940 | So I think we both had our oldest in 2012.

00:14:44.780 | I think we might have that right.

00:14:45.880 | And we both now have three children.

00:14:48.040 | So there's a very similar timeline.

00:14:50.080 | What changed?

00:14:52.240 | So you're thinking about productivity, you're thinking about organization

00:14:54.400 | just from the perspective of I am a young doctor.

00:14:58.380 | Then you start having kids.

00:15:00.280 | If we go back and read your blog for this period,

00:15:03.740 | what are the changes we're going to notice and how you thought about these issues

00:15:07.000 | or how you were what you thought was important or what wasn't important?

00:15:09.680 | I wouldn't say anything changed necessarily.

00:15:13.640 | It just got harder.

00:15:15.240 | Like it just got more challenging and every minute became just that much more

00:15:20.640 | precious. And I don't mean that in the precious way, like Laura and I joke

00:15:24.180 | like, oh, I need to spend every moment with my like, you know, 18 month old.

00:15:28.000 | Like 18 month olds are tough.

00:15:29.580 | Maybe I don't want to spend every single minute with my 18 month old.

00:15:31.940 | But at the same time, there's just more balls in the air, more stuff to manage,

00:15:35.680 | more priorities to think about.

00:15:37.200 | And certainly the complexity of managing kind of the admin of life

00:15:41.300 | does multiply the more children you seem to have.

00:15:44.380 | So I've had to come up with more robust systems

00:15:47.240 | to be able to keep up with what that entails.

00:15:49.740 | And I actually feel like that in some ways becomes more and more challenging.

00:15:53.900 | The older the kids get. So I'm probably going to learn even more going forward.

00:15:57.200 | Yeah. Carpooling enters the scene.

00:15:59.540 | You know, in the episode of my podcast that aired the day before we're doing this

00:16:03.680 | interview, I made a perhaps unfortunate but accurate metaphor

00:16:07.740 | talking about the impact of kids on your time available to work.

00:16:12.140 | And I believe my metaphor involved a forest fire ravaging a city.

00:16:16.400 | And so I sort of talk about it kind of destroys a lot of things in some people's

00:16:20.600 | houses. It all made sense in the context, Jesse will say.

00:16:23.540 | But somehow it was some people's houses get burned down worse than others.

00:16:27.240 | But everyone is kind of in a hard situation because the city's on fire

00:16:30.040 | and maybe not the most loving metaphor.

00:16:32.780 | But there's some truth to that.

00:16:33.900 | It really makes everything harder.

00:16:37.140 | So can we get let's get a little bit specific then.

00:16:39.840 | So what type of system, when you think about organizing yourself right now,

00:16:45.340 | what are you using and how do you differentiate between

00:16:49.340 | thinking about your practice versus everything else that's happening

00:16:52.280 | outside of work?

00:16:53.880 | So I set goals kind of based on the time horizon,

00:16:57.480 | and I like to always think about the level of goals above where I am

00:17:00.740 | when I'm setting that time horizon goals.

00:17:02.400 | And that sounds more complicated than it is.

00:17:04.440 | Give it a fancy name to which probably makes things worse called nested goals.

00:17:07.740 | And that means every day I'm looking at kind of what I had set my goals

00:17:12.000 | for the week and choosing my goals for the day.

00:17:14.000 | Every week I'm looking at the goals I set for the month,

00:17:17.180 | as well as kind of like what's on my landscape and choosing my goals

00:17:20.100 | for the week, et cetera, going up levels to year.

00:17:22.700 | I never went above year yet, although that's something I could consider.

00:17:25.940 | And I have really, you know, specific routines in place

00:17:29.840 | for each of these levels as well, which I think are flexible.

00:17:34.100 | And they change as the kids, you know, have different needs

00:17:37.140 | or are in different stages.

00:17:38.340 | So, for example, right now, our weekly kind of family planning

00:17:42.040 | routine involves a whiteboard.

00:17:44.200 | I know, really high tech that every single Sunday I put like

00:17:48.460 | all of the kids activities, what we're having for dinner, who's driving anything.

00:17:52.260 | I have a full time nanny.

00:17:53.660 | So I guess one other soapbox I'll stand up on is have more child care

00:17:57.640 | than you think you need if you are able to, because if you have a couple

00:18:01.800 | where both parties have pretty significant jobs and big dreams,

00:18:04.940 | then you're probably going to need some help unless you are lucky enough

00:18:07.860 | to have family that's able to fill that role.

00:18:09.740 | So total tangent.

00:18:11.460 | But I put all that information together.

00:18:13.840 | And it's worth saying your husband's a surgeon, right?

00:18:15.760 | So we can set the context.

00:18:17.000 | My husband's a vascular surgeon, not the world's most flexible job,

00:18:20.600 | a great dad.

00:18:21.740 | And just like you've mentioned, you know, parenting has impacted him too,

00:18:24.940 | because I know that's one of the critiques that you've had to fight at times.

00:18:28.340 | But it's true.

00:18:29.100 | It's a fire for all of us.

00:18:30.460 | It's a fire for him.

00:18:31.460 | And the more we can keep things running smoothly, the less that fire will take us

00:18:35.100 | all over.

00:18:35.460 | So every week, we look and see what's coming.

00:18:38.100 | We kind of proactively think about what the issues might be.

00:18:41.500 | And as low tech as it is, that seems to work for us on a weekly scale.

00:18:46.440 | But we have to go up levels too.

00:18:48.140 | Like we want to think about on a grand scheme, where do we want to go on

00:18:50.740 | vacations?

00:18:51.460 | You know, what are our big goals for the family this year?

00:18:53.900 | What activities would be really great for the kids to look at?

00:18:57.340 | And for that scale of things, we actually, every year, my husband and I do like a

00:19:02.060 | little mini retreat where we kind of plan out the calendar.

00:19:05.060 | And so that is a collaborative effort to make sure our family is kind of moving in

00:19:08.640 | the direction that we want.

00:19:09.800 | And then kind of on the smaller scale, we operationalize.

00:19:12.740 | So yeah, I guess that's in a nutshell view kind of how we manage the rest of life.

00:19:17.800 | - So what's on the whiteboard used for the weekly planning?

00:19:20.800 | Is it drawing out day by day and you have notes on it?

00:19:24.000 | Is it just highlights?

00:19:25.460 | What would we see?

00:19:26.300 | Yeah.

00:19:27.060 | - It's a calendar.

00:19:27.860 | So it's an old whiteboard by Aaron Condren that's not made anymore.

00:19:32.000 | I know that's not terribly useful, but it has the days of the week and then there's

00:19:34.600 | a blank section.

00:19:35.400 | So there's eight, it's like a grid, four on the top, four on the bottom.

00:19:38.740 | And then the blank one's usually for like to-do items or like, "Right now,

00:19:42.240 | we got in trouble because our roof is dirty."

00:19:43.840 | So I put clean roof or figure out someone to clean the roof.

00:19:46.840 | And then for each day, I put like what the kids have, who's driving,

00:19:50.040 | what's for dinner, any schedule alteration from the norm, if someone has to stay late,

00:19:54.700 | if I'm hosting book club, etc.

00:19:56.840 | And I really do feel like this kind of thinking ahead of time,

00:20:01.700 | where are the blocks of time I can grab?

00:20:03.600 | What are the things I want to do?

00:20:05.600 | And then planning around that rather than like let life happen and see what ends

00:20:08.960 | up fitting in, I end up getting to do so much more like we get to do,

00:20:13.280 | more of what we actually want to do.

00:20:15.380 | Do things come up?

00:20:16.480 | Yes.

00:20:17.280 | - Like you're saying, if you see you're thinking ahead for the week and, you know,

00:20:20.480 | your husband might say, "You know what?

00:20:21.720 | We would love to go try out this new restaurant or something like that."

00:20:24.720 | Because you're thinking about it in advance, you're now able to be like, "Okay,

00:20:28.020 | well, here's what we're going to do.

00:20:29.080 | Let's arrange for the babysitter.

00:20:30.880 | Let's say no to these two things, play dates or whatever.

00:20:34.180 | Let's keep this day clear."

00:20:36.080 | By looking in advance at your time horizon, you're able to actually have more

00:20:39.800 | flexibility than if it was just, "Okay, now it's Wednesday afternoon.

00:20:43.400 | What can we do tonight?"

00:20:44.480 | And it's like, "Oh, my God, we scheduled ourselves once again all the way

00:20:47.880 | tonight or we both were working."

00:20:49.400 | And so that looking ahead, you're saying, is allowing you to move the...

00:20:53.400 | We talk about sometimes moving the blocks of time around the sort

00:20:57.000 | of proverbial schedule chessboard.

00:21:00.340 | So you have some advance.

00:21:01.240 | - Yes.

00:21:01.880 | When I think when you mentioned like, you know, what did having kids change?

00:21:05.280 | I think you're getting at that right now, which is that like the spontaneity in

00:21:09.880 | theory is great and maybe you can like decide to go to a random restaurant on a

00:21:15.760 | Wednesday night when there's no kids.

00:21:17.560 | But once there are multiple players in the mix, it does require a broader horizon

00:21:22.160 | to make things happen.

00:21:23.560 | And if you go ahead right now and turn to like, I don't know when this is airing,

00:21:27.080 | but like July 23rd, you're probably free.

00:21:29.080 | So if there's something that's important to you, put that on July 23rd now because

00:21:33.360 | on July 21st, it's going to be filled with something else.

00:21:36.200 | So planning just becomes very, very important.

00:21:39.200 | And the more important something is to us, the farther back we probably want

00:21:42.560 | to be thinking about it.

00:21:43.360 | - Interesting.

00:21:43.840 | So at the annual level, when you're on the retreat, this is where you might also look

00:21:47.960 | at different seasonal rhythms and work, I'm assuming.

00:21:51.000 | Like this is always a busy period because whatever, all the kids have to get...

00:21:55.160 | Before school starts, everyone's coming in to get some sort of whatever.

00:21:58.360 | This is the heavy surgery season.

00:21:59.560 | So let's aim for right after this.

00:22:01.360 | We know March is a great time.

00:22:02.840 | Let's really protect this and keep this clean.

00:22:04.600 | This is when we can go, whatever, relax or vacation.

00:22:07.520 | So I'm assuming on this annual level, you probably really get to make sure the

00:22:11.840 | important stuff falls.

00:22:12.760 | I mean, because I think about this sometimes, when important events happen

00:22:16.080 | in people's lives, they're able to make time for it.

00:22:18.800 | You know, there's a medical issue, there's a relative gets sick,

00:22:22.640 | there's a major house issue, your roof has a big problem.

00:22:26.600 | Time is made.

00:22:27.240 | Things have to get cancelled, things get moved around.

00:22:29.400 | So it's possible to make time, but there's a lot of force that has

00:22:33.520 | to be applied to do so.

00:22:34.680 | It never just sort of naturally opens up.

00:22:36.560 | So the more you're really looking ahead, it sounds like the more breathers,

00:22:41.560 | adventure, exploration, all of that can find a spot if that spot is protected

00:22:49.320 | farther in advance.

00:22:50.560 | So the planning aspect is really coming through at multiple scales here.

00:22:54.240 | - And I think you're so right that when there's an emergency,

00:22:56.920 | we're going to be able to clear off those meetings.

00:22:58.600 | But like, I'm not going to be able to decide I want to run XYZ marathon

00:23:02.000 | in two days, right?

00:23:02.760 | Because like that might be important to me, but it's not going to like be the

00:23:05.520 | emergency type of thing that could just knock everything off.

00:23:07.760 | That kind of thing has to be thought out well in advance.

00:23:10.400 | So that's a great distinction to make.

00:23:11.800 | - Another thing you mentioned, and I want to get soon to how you operationalize this

00:23:17.400 | on the daily level, I think this is where we're going to get some help I'm going

00:23:20.400 | to need.

00:23:22.080 | But I really like the partnership aspect of this.

00:23:24.840 | And, you know, I do calls and questions.

00:23:27.560 | So I don't know how much you get this in your letters or when people write in for

00:23:31.160 | your show, but something that comes up often on my show is the disaster that

00:23:36.160 | happens when you have two members of a partnership, let's say like a married

00:23:39.760 | couple, and they're both trying to do this separately.

00:23:43.320 | And each person is thinking about just, "Well, what do I want to do?

00:23:47.960 | What's important to me?"

00:23:49.160 | And these things are just clashing left and right, you know?

00:23:52.080 | And it's, you know, "I want to run a marathon, and that's important to me,

00:23:54.680 | and I should be able to run a marathon."

00:23:56.400 | And now, wait, every single morning, you're having to do this training,

00:23:59.240 | and it really doesn't work with...and it's a big disaster.

00:24:01.640 | Whereas if it had been planned in partnership, it's like, "Well,

00:24:03.320 | here's the issue."

00:24:03.960 | Like, that really clashes really terribly with our schedule.

00:24:08.040 | But this other thing you might be interested in would work really well.

00:24:10.800 | And so I like that aspect where you're talking about you and your husband go on

00:24:15.320 | a retreat to think about this.

00:24:16.920 | Your whole family looks at the whiteboard because it seems like this doesn't work

00:24:22.280 | when you have a group of people, and everyone is on their own trying

00:24:25.560 | to just make decisions, the, "Hey, what do I want to do?

00:24:27.600 | What's important to me?"

00:24:28.960 | Or getting the tit for tat, thinking, "Well, you got to do that,

00:24:31.200 | so I got to make sure I get to do this."

00:24:33.280 | And you're not doing it in a collaborative structure.

00:24:36.640 | That seems like that falls apart pretty quickly because these pieces are

00:24:39.040 | complicated, and they don't...to make them fit together,

00:24:41.680 | you have to be incredibly intentional.

00:24:43.240 | It's hard to build a complex mechanism when you have two people

00:24:46.440 | with blindfolds on.

00:24:47.240 | - I agree.

00:24:48.640 | And if you have one person that tends to enjoy doing more of the planning,

00:24:52.600 | then you hope that the other person at least can weigh in on...you know,

00:24:56.440 | have veto power.

00:24:57.400 | You know, like, they hopefully will appreciate the labor that it takes

00:25:01.440 | to do the planning, and I'm very lucky.

00:25:02.880 | And maybe it's partly because I do a whole podcast about it,

00:25:05.640 | but my husband understands that this actually takes time.

00:25:08.560 | This is mental load.

00:25:09.440 | This is emotional labor.

00:25:10.400 | So if I work to put something together that he's not part of,

00:25:13.680 | he's going to be respectful about it, but at the same time,

00:25:15.640 | I want to include him.

00:25:16.640 | I'm not going to, like, plan some big adventure or some big thing just for me

00:25:20.320 | that's going to impact him without discussing it.

00:25:22.240 | And that's why I do feel like...I mean, I called it a retreat, and we do.

00:25:25.760 | We go every year, and we...every few months...I would say every,

00:25:29.440 | like, four to six months, we try to do, like, a trip where it's two

00:25:33.520 | nights, just us, and talk about a lot of these things and how they're going.

00:25:37.760 | And then once a year, one of those will be, like, what I would really formally

00:25:41.000 | call a retreat to, like, "Okay, this is our calendar.

00:25:44.040 | What do you prioritize?

00:25:45.040 | What should we do?"

00:25:45.960 | - Yeah, I love that.

00:25:47.560 | And we do something similar.

00:25:49.160 | I also like the idea...my wife and I do some of this.

00:25:52.840 | You can do a balanced responsibilities here that lean into strengths.

00:25:55.720 | So maybe if one person is better at or prefers to be involved in, let's say,

00:26:01.280 | logistics or interpersonal logistics, the other person says, "Okay,

00:26:04.120 | well, here's five other household stuff, like the budget,

00:26:06.800 | like keeping up on the household repair, the car repair,

00:26:11.240 | stuff that's maybe not interpersonal logistical but a pain.

00:26:14.280 | All right, I'll do all that stuff."

00:26:15.440 | And you can kind of get a nice balance that leans into strengths.

00:26:20.120 | Like, "Okay, I'm willing to, you know, I like to get into it with the

00:26:23.880 | contractors and blah, blah, blah.

00:26:25.520 | And you like to talk to the relatives and figure out who's coming

00:26:28.800 | to who on Christmas.

00:26:29.480 | And so, great, we'll have a balance of powers here.

00:26:34.160 | We're all leaning into our strengths and like roughly speaking,

00:26:36.440 | stuff gets done.

00:26:37.120 | - And I don't remember where I learned it, but someone called it vertical

00:26:40.080 | ownership, which I think is a great way to refer to things like,

00:26:42.960 | "I own pediatrician visits, so like I'm not going to bother him

00:26:45.600 | about them."

00:26:46.240 | And then he's going to own cleaning the roof.

00:26:47.800 | Like, "If we get something from the HOA, I don't even want to know about it."

00:26:50.680 | And honestly, maybe not for every relationship, but I find that helps to just

00:26:54.520 | have like realms that are like owned by one person versus owned by the other.

00:26:59.480 | And these don't have to split by any traditional gender norms.

00:27:02.240 | I agree, they should be...

00:27:03.160 | - Strengths.

00:27:03.720 | - Split by strengths.

00:27:04.720 | - Yeah.

00:27:05.040 | - But it helps to just be able to hand something off entirely to someone.

00:27:08.520 | - I like vertical ownership.

00:27:09.720 | I like that terminology.

00:27:11.600 | Occasionally, we do have couples we know, it is kind of weird where you're

00:27:15.720 | arranging something, like just when you're dropping off their kid or something,

00:27:18.920 | and both parents are in the text.

00:27:21.360 | And it feels like this can't possibly be the most efficient distribution of

00:27:26.800 | resources here that both of you are involved in thinking through because it is

00:27:31.720 | much more...vertical ownership, I think, is more common and it works great.

00:27:34.640 | Like, "Okay, which parent am I talking to about this?

00:27:37.240 | Oh, this parent is doing the soccer carpool.

00:27:39.640 | Oh, this parent is really the play date parent."

00:27:43.120 | And yeah, I think that's fantastic.

00:27:45.240 | All right, let's talk about operationalizing then day to day.

00:27:49.400 | So, you have the annual helps influence the weekly.

00:27:53.040 | By the way, we call this multi-scale planning on my show, but I'm typically

00:27:56.760 | talking about multi-scale planning very professionally.

00:27:59.440 | Multi-scale, you know, quarter, weekly, daily, but very much in the context of

00:28:04.320 | I'm at my computer screen working.

00:28:05.480 | So, this is great to see this adjusted.

00:28:07.520 | So, the annual is influencing the weekly.

00:28:10.080 | The weekly is going to influence the daily.

00:28:12.120 | Now, how are we getting through in your approach day by day?

00:28:17.120 | - Yeah.

00:28:17.440 | So, this is perfect timing.

00:28:19.280 | I literally just...I have this thing called Best Laid Plans Academy, and I taught the

00:28:22.760 | daily session today.

00:28:24.040 | So, this is fresh.

00:28:25.200 | But I think in order to plan your day, you need three things.

00:28:27.840 | You need a calendar that is reliable, that I call like a one source of truth,

00:28:32.480 | a hard landscape that you know like this is actually what I have going on.

00:28:36.080 | And in this day and age, there's a lot of people who are using digital calendars,

00:28:39.080 | but are like using multiple ones, and like kind of like one for home and one for work,

00:28:42.840 | and this is on paper.

00:28:43.560 | And I really think having them in one integrated place is very important.

00:28:47.080 | So, it's not a search and find when you're like, "What do I have on my

00:28:49.680 | docket for the day?"

00:28:50.400 | - What are you using for this?

00:28:52.320 | - I use paper.

00:28:53.320 | - Okay.

00:28:54.000 | - So, I mean, I use digital tools, obviously.

00:28:56.800 | I have to use Outlook for work.

00:28:58.160 | I have to use Epic for the electronic medical record.

00:29:00.360 | I know how to use Google Calendar because honestly, that's how I send my

00:29:02.680 | husband stuff.

00:29:03.840 | But I prefer paper as my integrator.

00:29:06.680 | So, I like to use a vertical weekly layout where I can...it almost looks like a version

00:29:10.240 | of Google Calendar on paper.

00:29:11.840 | - Okay.

00:29:12.360 | - And then...

00:29:13.080 | - Can you walk us through what's the landscape?

00:29:16.480 | So, per page, what do you have?

00:29:17.960 | What's the actual layout?

00:29:18.760 | - Oh, interesting.

00:29:19.400 | So, I have an actual calendar view.

00:29:21.320 | I wish I had a visual.

00:29:22.360 | I could have...oh, well.

00:29:23.280 | I could show it at the end.

00:29:24.360 | I'll send you a picture.

00:29:25.240 | So, it's a vertical weekly, which is what I prefer.

00:29:28.480 | And then part of it is set up like a calendar.

00:29:30.360 | So, I love Japanese products because there's a lot of room to write.

00:29:33.720 | So, like Hobonichi, right now I'm using one by Sterling Inc.

00:29:37.120 | But basically, like, you know, I can block out the hours of what I'm doing.

00:29:40.120 | But I also have rows along the bottom that I've used in late night hours where I'm

00:29:44.600 | sleeping to put what my workout is for the day, any kid activities that are

00:29:48.720 | happening for the day, any priority tasks that I know are assigned to a specific day,

00:29:53.080 | I put in little tiny boxes along the top.

00:29:54.960 | And then along the left side, I have, like, my tasks for the week that I've

00:29:58.120 | identified on my previous weekly review.

00:30:00.040 | So...

00:30:00.360 | - Is it one day per page or is it seven days?

00:30:04.200 | You have seven vertical columns or five vertical columns per page.

00:30:08.840 | - So, I use both.

00:30:10.520 | So, but when I talk about my hard landscape calendar, I'm talking about seven

00:30:15.280 | calendars, seven columns plus a column on the left for, like, tasks.

00:30:19.840 | So, that makes eight columns total.

00:30:21.840 | And then as I'm planning my day, I refer to that source of truth, which, again,

00:30:26.800 | in my case is paper, but it could be your Google Calendar, your Fantastical,

00:30:30.400 | your whatever.

00:30:31.640 | And you have to have your schedule and then you have to have your task list that

00:30:36.160 | you're going to decide what is important to work on that day.

00:30:39.160 | And that should be influenced by your schedule and by your energy and, like,

00:30:43.640 | by what's the most pressing.

00:30:44.600 | So, those three things kind of get integrated.

00:30:46.480 | You decide what actually goes onto your list.

00:30:48.480 | And the third component of planning your day is just, like, if you have any

00:30:51.360 | specific rituals or routines.

00:30:53.000 | Like, Laura does certain things every day.

00:30:54.800 | I do certain things every day.

00:30:55.920 | You do.

00:30:56.360 | I think you check off certain metrics.

00:30:57.720 | So, there might be things that are just, like, sort of non-negotiable.

00:31:00.520 | You walk, you exercise, or whatever it is.

00:31:02.320 | So, that might kind of influence how you structure your day as well.

00:31:06.600 | And I actually do go through the ritual each morning, looking at my hard

00:31:09.840 | landscape, looking at, like, what I have to do and deciding what I'm going to

00:31:14.360 | tackle that day.

00:31:15.480 | And I write that on my daily page.

00:31:17.000 | That's a little different from your time block planning method and, honestly,

00:31:20.240 | might even be considered less reactive.

00:31:21.960 | So, I'm always like, "Oh, Cal's not going to like this."

00:31:24.200 | But for me, it works.

00:31:25.640 | And I think, in part, it works because when I'm seeing patients,

00:31:28.000 | those days are so structured that, like, I don't need any more time stress.

00:31:31.800 | Like, if I'm getting something done, it might be, like, during my lunch hour

00:31:34.800 | or between patients.

00:31:35.640 | So, I can't time block plan that.

00:31:37.520 | And then on my non-patient days, I just want to be more free because I am

00:31:41.680 | so constrained on the patient days.

00:31:43.160 | So, I prefer that.

00:31:45.480 | But I like to think that so much thought goes into making that to-do list that

00:31:49.440 | is not really list reactive.

00:31:50.840 | I've, like, kind of already prioritized it and I'm just seeing where the blank

00:31:54.480 | pockets of time are and then I can go about it in a methodical way.

00:31:57.400 | - Well, and doctors' professional days are, as you mentioned,

00:32:00.560 | they're already time block plan.

00:32:01.760 | So, you are doing time block planning.

00:32:03.000 | I mean, it's being done in your patient scheduling system.

00:32:05.480 | But the doctors already time block plan because that's how patient calendars work,

00:32:10.240 | right?

00:32:10.520 | Where if you have a job where you don't have that and every day is just you

00:32:14.120 | and your inbox, that's where, "Okay, I need to add some more artificial

00:32:18.560 | processing, I need to add some more time."

00:32:20.400 | And so, you're already time blocking.

00:32:22.000 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:23.320 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:24.640 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:26.000 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:27.360 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:28.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:30.200 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:31.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:33.200 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:34.600 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:36.000 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:37.320 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:38.800 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:40.280 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:41.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:43.240 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:44.720 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:46.120 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:47.640 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:49.200 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:50.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:52.400 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:54.000 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:55.680 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:57.440 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:32:59.160 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:00.920 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:02.640 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:04.360 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:06.120 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:07.880 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:09.600 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:11.320 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:13.080 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:14.880 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:16.680 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:18.480 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:20.360 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:22.280 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:24.240 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:26.120 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:28.040 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:29.960 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:31.920 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:33.880 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:35.880 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:37.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:39.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:41.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:43.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:45.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:47.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:49.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:51.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:53.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:55.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:57.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:33:59.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:01.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:03.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:05.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:07.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:09.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:11.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:13.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:15.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:17.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:19.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:21.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:23.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:25.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:27.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:29.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:31.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:33.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:35.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:37.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:39.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:41.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:43.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:45.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:47.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:49.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:51.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:53.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:55.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:57.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:34:59.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:01.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:03.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:05.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:07.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:09.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:11.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:13.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:15.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:17.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:19.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:21.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:23.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:25.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:27.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:29.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:31.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:33.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:35.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:37.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:39.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:41.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:43.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:45.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:47.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:49.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:51.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:53.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:55.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:57.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:35:59.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:01.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:03.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:05.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:07.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:09.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:11.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:13.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:15.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:17.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:19.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:21.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:23.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:25.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:27.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:29.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:31.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:33.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:35.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:37.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:39.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:41.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:43.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:45.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:47.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:49.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:51.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:53.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:55.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:57.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:36:59.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:01.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:03.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:05.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:07.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:09.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:11.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:13.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:15.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:17.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:19.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:21.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:23.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:25.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:27.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:29.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:31.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:33.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:35.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:37.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:39.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:41.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:43.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:45.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:47.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:49.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:51.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:53.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:55.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:57.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:37:59.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:01.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:03.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:05.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:07.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:09.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:11.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:13.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:15.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:17.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:19.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:21.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:23.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:25.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:27.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:29.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:31.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:33.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:35.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:37.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:39.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:41.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:43.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:45.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:47.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:49.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:51.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:53.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:55.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:57.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:38:59.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:01.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:03.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:05.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:07.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:09.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:11.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:13.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:15.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:17.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:19.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:21.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:23.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:25.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:27.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:29.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:31.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:33.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:35.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:37.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:39.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:41.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:43.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:45.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:47.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:49.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:51.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:53.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:55.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:57.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:39:59.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:01.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:03.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:05.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:07.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:09.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:11.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:13.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:15.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:17.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:19.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:21.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:23.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:25.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:27.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:29.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:31.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:33.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:35.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:37.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:39.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:41.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:43.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:45.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:47.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:49.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:51.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:53.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:55.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:57.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:40:59.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:01.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:03.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:05.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:07.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:09.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:11.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:13.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:15.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:17.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:19.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:21.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:23.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:25.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:27.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:29.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:31.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:33.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:35.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:37.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:39.760 | So, you're already time blocking.

00:41:41.760 | So, that's good. I just want to point out,

00:41:43.760 | I'm glad that you emphasized,

00:41:45.760 | maybe people do it and they're worried

00:41:47.760 | about talking about it because this is very,

00:41:49.760 | different people can do different things,

00:41:51.760 | but I don't think we should be worried about talking about it.

00:41:53.760 | Some people can do a lot more than others.

00:41:55.760 | We have to be careful also,

00:41:57.760 | there is privilege inherent in this.

00:41:59.760 | I know you're going to get emails,

00:42:01.760 | but I can't do that right now.

00:42:03.760 | I get it. I mean, I couldn't do that when I was a resident either.

00:42:05.760 | There is inherent privilege,

00:42:07.760 | and at the same time,

00:42:09.760 | there are families who probably could do more

00:42:11.760 | than they are currently doing.

00:42:13.760 | So, I do want to recognize that

00:42:15.760 | not everybody is well compensated enough

00:42:17.760 | for this to work,

00:42:19.760 | but if it is, and you have two big jobs,

00:42:21.760 | it's kind of like,

00:42:23.760 | we have a 2011 Prius, okay?

00:42:25.760 | That's where our priorities are.

00:42:27.760 | Yeah.

00:42:29.760 | Maybe when you think of it more about

00:42:31.760 | shifting resources,

00:42:33.760 | spend less on this, spend more on this,

00:42:35.760 | and what those amounts are differ for different people.

00:42:37.760 | But yeah, there's this interesting block

00:42:39.760 | with yard work and house work

00:42:41.760 | and logistical stuff

00:42:43.760 | that there's this sense of,

00:42:45.760 | "You shouldn't spend money on that,"

00:42:47.760 | because there's a thrift in theory,

00:42:49.760 | even if you have the money, but in theory, I could do that.

00:42:51.760 | I think the "in theory, I could do that"

00:42:53.760 | has probably created more unnecessary stress

00:42:55.760 | than almost any other mindset.

00:42:57.760 | Because it's true, in theory,

00:42:59.760 | I could rake the leaves,

00:43:01.760 | but it also takes me a really long time.

00:43:03.760 | All right, this is great, though.

00:43:05.760 | I was just going to say, there's parenting tasks

00:43:07.760 | that I want to outsource

00:43:09.760 | and some that I don't.

00:43:11.760 | I want to be there to help my kids with their homework,

00:43:13.760 | and if that means that I'm not doing the laundry,

00:43:15.760 | I have a planner,

00:43:17.760 | I can see how many hours there are.

00:43:19.760 | I can't do everything, and also get the rest

00:43:21.760 | and stuff that I need.

00:43:23.760 | We do have to make intelligent choices

00:43:25.760 | or thoughtful choices about what we decide to outsource,

00:43:27.760 | and that doesn't mean that it's nothing,

00:43:29.760 | because in reality, you can't do everything.

00:43:31.760 | Now, what do you think about this theory?

00:43:33.760 | Because it sounds like you might exemplify it

00:43:35.760 | with your own life as well.

00:43:37.760 | When people get more serious about planning,

00:43:39.760 | they tend to be

00:43:41.760 | not just less stressed, but they're less likely

00:43:43.760 | to talk about themselves as being overloaded.

00:43:45.760 | The fallacy is,

00:43:47.760 | "Oh, that's because with planning,

00:43:49.760 | you can juggle a lot more things."

00:43:51.760 | My theory is,

00:43:53.760 | the reality is, with planning,

00:43:55.760 | you learn a lot more about

00:43:57.760 | how much time you really have

00:43:59.760 | and how much time things really take.

00:44:01.760 | Planners have this good source

00:44:03.760 | of back pressure that gets them

00:44:05.760 | limiting things on the intake.

00:44:07.760 | Now you have a really good sense of,

00:44:09.760 | "I'm not going to agree to do that.

00:44:11.760 | That's too much," because you're used to seeing your plan

00:44:13.760 | on these different scales.

00:44:15.760 | Planners are less likely to be overloaded,

00:44:17.760 | not because they can somehow make better use

00:44:19.760 | of their time, though they do,

00:44:21.760 | but more because they're familiar with their time,

00:44:23.760 | and they can avoid getting

00:44:25.760 | into the time trouble in the first place.

00:44:27.760 | You end up drowning when

00:44:29.760 | the intake maybe was

00:44:31.760 | not well curated, and you get to Wednesday

00:44:33.760 | and you agreed to the four things on Thursday

00:44:35.760 | and you're kid's sick, and you have a busy workday,

00:44:37.760 | and the stress comes from that's impossible.

00:44:39.760 | But it's impossible in part

00:44:41.760 | because maybe you weren't

00:44:43.760 | thinking through the last

00:44:45.760 | 50 weeks of doing this weekly planning

00:44:47.760 | and seeing what happens. I don't know.

00:44:49.760 | What's the role there? What do you think about this theory that just being

00:44:51.760 | more aware of your time

00:44:53.760 | can be as big of a role

00:44:55.760 | in you feeling less overloaded than actually just trying to

00:44:57.760 | squeeze more things into your

00:44:59.760 | schedule by being careful about your time?

00:45:01.760 | I think it helps. I think,

00:45:03.760 | I mean, I have to again be careful because

00:45:05.760 | some people are facing such challenges

00:45:07.760 | that it doesn't matter how much planning

00:45:09.760 | they do, they're going to have some

00:45:11.760 | stress, and that's tough. But

00:45:13.760 | I also think there are a lot of people

00:45:15.760 | that can be helped by doing more planning,

00:45:17.760 | and that I do do a lot of things

00:45:19.760 | and generally don't have a lot of stress about them.

00:45:21.760 | Yeah, stuff comes up,

00:45:23.760 | but if I've kind of been overall

00:45:25.760 | kind of looking at the

00:45:27.760 | big picture, what's ahead, so that I can

00:45:29.760 | be a little bit more proactive than reactive

00:45:31.760 | when the surprises do come, they're not going

00:45:33.760 | to set things into such a

00:45:35.760 | disaster mode, and so things are less stressful

00:45:37.760 | overall. I also think you're right.

00:45:39.760 | It helps me be more realistic about

00:45:41.760 | saying no to things, and

00:45:43.760 | sometimes just

00:45:45.760 | getting ahead of stuff makes stuff easier.

00:45:47.760 | Like, if you ask someone

00:45:49.760 | to give a lecture in six

00:45:51.760 | months, for example, they're probably going to say yes,

00:45:53.760 | and your task is done. You've asked it, you've filled it,

00:45:55.760 | you're done. If you are trying to find someone to fill

00:45:57.760 | a lecture in two days, or you're trying to

00:45:59.760 | get a fancy restaurant reservation

00:46:01.760 | in two days, it's very

00:46:03.760 | hard, because all of a sudden

00:46:05.760 | the options are not open to you, and so

00:46:07.760 | by thinking a number of steps ahead,

00:46:09.760 | you can actually

00:46:11.760 | make certain things easier.

00:46:13.760 | So I think that helps as well. You have lots of free time

00:46:15.760 | over the next month. You have very limited free time

00:46:17.760 | over the next day. There's a general rule

00:46:19.760 | of thumb. So if you're

00:46:21.760 | thinking far ahead, you have plenty of time to do it, and if you're

00:46:23.760 | thinking about, "Oh, now I need to do this for tomorrow,"

00:46:25.760 | yeah, that's what happens to college students.

00:46:27.760 | Back when I used to advise college students,

00:46:29.760 | they actually have plenty of time, but their issue

00:46:31.760 | is they wait until the deadline

00:46:33.760 | arises to say, "Oh, I need to work on

00:46:35.760 | this now," and then you're just playing schedule

00:46:37.760 | roulette, because if two things have the same

00:46:39.760 | deadline, now you're staying up all night,

00:46:41.760 | and now it's screwed. And I always talk

00:46:43.760 | to them, like, if you just looked at even just one week ahead,

00:46:45.760 | or two weeks ahead, you have plenty of time. Just start that

00:46:47.760 | paper two weeks ago when you have nothing to do,

00:46:49.760 | and then the week before the paper, you can study

00:46:51.760 | for the midterm and not have to do both,

00:46:53.760 | but I might as well be telling

00:46:55.760 | them, "Just flap your arms

00:46:57.760 | really hard, and you'll begin to fly,"

00:46:59.760 | because to them, it's just as believable

00:47:01.760 | that they're going to do that.

00:47:03.760 | I also have to say, and this is

00:47:05.760 | going to be a compliment to you, which is

00:47:07.760 | that all the planning and time awareness

00:47:09.760 | helps you realize

00:47:11.760 | certain things are very time-sucking

00:47:13.760 | and not important, and I do credit you

00:47:15.760 | for one of the things that's gotten me

00:47:17.760 | entirely off of social media.

00:47:19.760 | I'm just like, "Don't have time

00:47:21.760 | for--that's not a priority for me."

00:47:23.760 | I have so many other things that I want to do

00:47:25.760 | that I've planned in intentionally, that if I'm

00:47:27.760 | spending two hours

00:47:29.760 | sucked into Instagram that I'm not going to get

00:47:31.760 | to do, and by completely crossing

00:47:33.760 | that off of my list, which honestly, you are

00:47:35.760 | really part of what helped me do that,

00:47:37.760 | that's also opened up a lot of time.

00:47:39.760 | But I think that the planning awareness and your

00:47:41.760 | influence came together

00:47:43.760 | in a nice way there. - How do you and your

00:47:45.760 | husband think about your portfolio

00:47:47.760 | of kids' activities to balance--

00:47:49.760 | kids need stuff to do, it's

00:47:51.760 | important for them, but also certain combinations

00:47:53.760 | of activities are going to have a

00:47:55.760 | much bigger footprint on

00:47:57.760 | our schedule and our stress levels than others.

00:47:59.760 | Where does this fall into, the way

00:48:01.760 | when you do your planning? - I think I tend

00:48:03.760 | to land more on the Laura

00:48:05.760 | side, which is like, if a kid wants to do

00:48:07.760 | an activity, I'd rather them do

00:48:09.760 | that activity than

00:48:11.760 | them end up wanting to be on

00:48:13.760 | a device, which is what they want to do otherwise.

00:48:15.760 | So, my kid is

00:48:17.760 | trying out for trouble soccer, so it's like,

00:48:19.760 | I mean, what can I say? I guess

00:48:21.760 | that's where the outsourcing and the carpooling

00:48:23.760 | and the networking and the planning so that I can

00:48:25.760 | make that carpooling work

00:48:27.760 | comes into mind. But I guess

00:48:29.760 | I would be loathe

00:48:31.760 | to turn down one of my kids an

00:48:33.760 | opportunity for convenience, and

00:48:35.760 | I know some families love

00:48:37.760 | family dinners, but

00:48:39.760 | confession, we don't really have them

00:48:41.760 | that often because my husband is not home in time.

00:48:43.760 | Not because I don't want them, but it would be like me

00:48:45.760 | and the kids, and like, you know, sometimes I do

00:48:47.760 | eat with the kids, and that's one version of family dinner,

00:48:49.760 | but I don't have a family dinner sacred

00:48:51.760 | ritual that would be disrupted by my kid having

00:48:53.760 | later night soccer. So instead,

00:48:55.760 | it just kind of fits in

00:48:57.760 | and gets planned in, etc. So, I think

00:48:59.760 | especially as my kids get older,

00:49:01.760 | if they have passions,

00:49:03.760 | I just want to make it happen

00:49:05.760 | for them. - Yeah, I had a similar change

00:49:07.760 | of heart. When my kids were young, I used to think about

00:49:09.760 | time-intensive sports.

00:49:11.760 | Like, "Oh, I don't understand this. This seems like such a pain,

00:49:13.760 | and the parents' time

00:49:15.760 | is important, too, and this takes so much time."

00:49:17.760 | And then as your kids get a little bit older, you're like, "Oh, this is much

00:49:19.760 | better than the alternatives." Especially

00:49:21.760 | when I have all boys. Like, "Okay,

00:49:23.760 | you can go run for hours

00:49:25.760 | instead of just being at home

00:49:27.760 | and bothering me or trying

00:49:29.760 | to play video games." Like, "Oh, now I understand

00:49:31.760 | why kids do

00:49:33.760 | so many sports." It's because if you think

00:49:35.760 | abstractly, you have all this time when the kids are not

00:49:37.760 | in school. If you can take a

00:49:39.760 | significant portion of those hours and they're outside

00:49:41.760 | and there's another adult that they have to listen to

00:49:43.760 | and their learning skills and

00:49:45.760 | not bothering you directly, I'll

00:49:47.760 | carpool some people. I sort of

00:49:49.760 | get that. I sort of get that now.

00:49:51.760 | It's interesting how that shifts.

00:49:53.760 | So, how

00:49:55.760 | have you seen... I just want to do

00:49:57.760 | a 30,000-foot question here.

00:49:59.760 | You've been doing... talking about these issues

00:50:01.760 | for a long time. How have you seen

00:50:03.760 | the culture or your

00:50:05.760 | audience response to the types

00:50:07.760 | of things you write about? What are the

00:50:09.760 | inflection points? How has that changed

00:50:11.760 | since 2009 to 2023?

00:50:13.760 | When you're talking about

00:50:15.760 | things like organization, planning, productivity,

00:50:17.760 | has your audience been pretty constant, or have you

00:50:19.760 | found how they approach

00:50:21.760 | these issues as something that's evolved over time?

00:50:23.760 | Yeah. I feel

00:50:25.760 | like people are always looking for

00:50:27.760 | one prescriptive system,

00:50:29.760 | and sometimes it takes me kind of being

00:50:31.760 | like, "No, you kind of have to build your own, but

00:50:33.760 | here are the elements that you need."

00:50:35.760 | I definitely find that people

00:50:37.760 | struggle with giving

00:50:39.760 | themselves enough time to plan, and

00:50:41.760 | then sometimes I'll suggest

00:50:43.760 | something like, "Well, you could get to work 10 minutes

00:50:45.760 | earlier and do a little planning," and they're like, "Oh my

00:50:47.760 | God, I could." They didn't

00:50:49.760 | realize that that was something they were allowed to

00:50:51.760 | do. I think people

00:50:53.760 | tell themselves

00:50:55.760 | stories or mythology also

00:50:57.760 | about what they're supposed to

00:50:59.760 | use their time for, or what's a good use of time

00:51:01.760 | or not, and really that has to be

00:51:03.760 | all our own decisions.

00:51:05.760 | Have I seen it change? I don't

00:51:07.760 | know how much I've seen it change. I'll say that the biggest

00:51:09.760 | theme that seems to come up

00:51:11.760 | tends to be

00:51:13.760 | either time

00:51:15.760 | or task overload, and then

00:51:17.760 | also so many people wanting

00:51:19.760 | to curb destructive

00:51:21.760 | screen time/distraction

00:51:23.760 | habits. How do I create

00:51:25.760 | a plan for my day where I'm not going to get

00:51:27.760 | distracted and derailed by less important

00:51:29.760 | things? That's come up a lot.

00:51:31.760 | - That's interesting. I also think it's interesting

00:51:33.760 | your decision, similar to mine, to

00:51:35.760 | not engage on social

00:51:37.760 | media, because there is

00:51:39.760 | – and I don't know if you know this world better. I don't

00:51:41.760 | know it that well, but there's a big

00:51:43.760 | social media-housed

00:51:45.760 | productivity culture

00:51:47.760 | that's based on Instagram,

00:51:49.760 | and I suppose TikTok,

00:51:51.760 | and I don't think it's on Twitter

00:51:53.760 | so much. There's a whole world out there.

00:51:55.760 | They have YouTube videos, too. I don't

00:51:57.760 | know that world very well, but especially

00:51:59.760 | when I talk to young people, they'll talk about it. So there's a whole

00:52:01.760 | new productivity

00:52:03.760 | online world that I'm not that

00:52:05.760 | familiar with. I have my newsletter blog

00:52:07.760 | readers who I love and have been around forever.

00:52:09.760 | I, by the way, think

00:52:11.760 | that type of early Web 2.0

00:52:13.760 | style interaction is

00:52:15.760 | pure distilled web. It's, "Here's

00:52:17.760 | these readers who have been commenting

00:52:19.760 | on my things for years, and

00:52:21.760 | I know some of them, and they send me emails." It's so

00:52:23.760 | much better than, "This is going out

00:52:25.760 | into Instagram, where

00:52:27.760 | God knows who's going to start commenting

00:52:29.760 | on this," or, "It's going on Twitter, where it can get

00:52:31.760 | retweeted and cause a pile-on,"

00:52:33.760 | or whatever. I think it's

00:52:35.760 | the right level of interaction.

00:52:37.760 | But there's that whole world out there. I don't know if you know anything

00:52:39.760 | about it, or are you happy, like me,

00:52:41.760 | that you can deal

00:52:43.760 | with individuals, a more

00:52:45.760 | reasonable-sized crowd. It can be more

00:52:47.760 | personal. It can be more reflective. It can be more

00:52:49.760 | responsive, and it's not this

00:52:51.760 | almost tribal warfare

00:52:53.760 | feel that's out there, where everyone is

00:52:55.760 | looking around and, I don't know,

00:52:57.760 | painting Braveheart paint on their face before

00:52:59.760 | rushing into battle or something like that. I think

00:53:01.760 | it's telling that you and I are not

00:53:03.760 | in that world of productivity.

00:53:05.760 | But there is a whole world out there that, I don't know,

00:53:07.760 | maybe it's giving our world a bad name.

00:53:09.760 | But I don't know much about it, and I don't know how much you've seen.

00:53:11.760 | I know Laura's not that interested in that world, either.

00:53:13.760 | - No, Laura, I think, has fun

00:53:15.760 | with Instagram, but doesn't do a lot with it

00:53:17.760 | professionally. I mean, she writes books, books that

00:53:19.760 | do really well, so she probably doesn't

00:53:21.760 | need that other platform. I probably

00:53:23.760 | could use that platform, but I just

00:53:25.760 | really don't want to. I

00:53:27.760 | don't have the self-control, and neither

00:53:29.760 | do I think most people, to, you know, use

00:53:31.760 | it a little bit, or use it professionally.

00:53:33.760 | And then I feel like the people who kind of use it professionally

00:53:35.760 | but aren't really using it, like, how much

00:53:37.760 | benefit are they getting out of that?

00:53:39.760 | And I just, I feel like I have enough.

00:53:41.760 | Like, I have enough connection with my listeners.

00:53:43.760 | I have people signing up for my courses.

00:53:45.760 | I'm doing a live course, and I'm super excited.

00:53:47.760 | Like, it's almost full. Like, I

00:53:49.760 | don't, I'm not big,

00:53:51.760 | and I don't necessarily need to be.

00:53:53.760 | I would love to, like, get into the actual

00:53:55.760 | book writing, you know, club

00:53:57.760 | someday, but honestly,

00:53:59.760 | even without that, I'm happy. I'm reaching a lot

00:54:01.760 | of people. I get lots of great emails, and I just

00:54:03.760 | I feel like I'm getting more

00:54:05.760 | than I would, like, I would lose so much

00:54:07.760 | from doing that, and I'm getting so much without it

00:54:09.760 | that, like, why would I add that in? - How's the course

00:54:11.760 | going? Tell us again what it's called, and a little

00:54:13.760 | bit about it, because I think there should be more

00:54:15.760 | of this, but anyways, tell us a little bit about it.

00:54:17.760 | - It's called Best Laid

00:54:19.760 | Plans Academy, and I've done

00:54:21.760 | well, I've done one full round of it, so

00:54:23.760 | it's seven online sessions. It's done via

00:54:25.760 | Zoom. It's, like, live, like, me in a classroom,

00:54:27.760 | and the sessions are all about

00:54:29.760 | the different levels of planning. So, like, the first one

00:54:31.760 | the first one's more of, like, a kickoff getting started,

00:54:33.760 | but then the second one's on annual, the third

00:54:35.760 | one's on daily. We kind of zoom down, and

00:54:37.760 | then we go weekly, seasonal, and then, like,

00:54:39.760 | some extras, and there's, like,

00:54:41.760 | a little bulletin board component where people can share

00:54:43.760 | little things, but it's not, there's no social

00:54:45.760 | media base at all.

00:54:47.760 | People can do, like, a little one-on-one

00:54:49.760 | with me, but

00:54:51.760 | it's been really, really fun. The first

00:54:53.760 | session, it was 30 people. It was all women.

00:54:55.760 | I would love to welcome some men

00:54:57.760 | into my courses as well,

00:54:59.760 | so who knows, maybe they'll find it

00:55:01.760 | via you and be interested,

00:55:03.760 | but we talk about all the challenges, and I

00:55:05.760 | kind of share my methods and help them with theirs,

00:55:07.760 | and, you know, it's like a, you know,

00:55:09.760 | classroom-size group,

00:55:11.760 | so there's, like, enough kind of interactivity.

00:55:13.760 | And then I'm doing the second session,

00:55:15.760 | which is, like, the spring session, and I'm applying everything

00:55:17.760 | I learned from that first section, and then

00:55:19.760 | I decided I wanted to do something, like, IRL,

00:55:21.760 | like, I just wanted to, like, see people, so

00:55:23.760 | I decided, probably against my better judgment,

00:55:25.760 | to host a live planning retreat,

00:55:27.760 | kind of like what I do with my husband, but, like, for other

00:55:29.760 | people in South Florida,

00:55:31.760 | so... - That's awesome. - Make it happen.

00:55:33.760 | - That's my nightmare, that organizing

00:55:35.760 | a real-person event because I'm a weird

00:55:37.760 | introspective troll, but I love

00:55:39.760 | that you're doing it. I would love to,

00:55:41.760 | I would love to attend something like that. And, yeah, we've got to get some

00:55:43.760 | men into your class. We have to change the culture

00:55:45.760 | so that men

00:55:47.760 | feel like being sort of

00:55:49.760 | ninja-level household planners

00:55:51.760 | is what, you know, being able to use the

00:55:53.760 | barbecue was 30 years ago. I want to

00:55:55.760 | make that culture shift where it's something

00:55:57.760 | like dads are really proud of.

00:55:59.760 | - It's like men are productivity

00:56:01.760 | and women are planning, but, like,

00:56:03.760 | I feel like I'm very productive, and it's my

00:56:05.760 | planning that helps me be productive, so I don't think

00:56:07.760 | those are separate worlds. - That's an interesting split, that people will

00:56:09.760 | think about planning. Where I'm with you,

00:56:11.760 | planning is at the core of productivity,

00:56:13.760 | right? It's like how you actually organize

00:56:15.760 | the resource that is your time and match

00:56:17.760 | it with what needs to be done so that you have

00:56:19.760 | an intentional mix of activity

00:56:21.760 | given the resources you have available. Planning's

00:56:23.760 | the engine there, and you're right. Productivity

00:56:25.760 | gets changed into other things where it's

00:56:27.760 | more about this sort of high-energy grinding

00:56:29.760 | or, I don't know, there's all, people define it in lots

00:56:31.760 | of different ways. They define it the way they need it

00:56:33.760 | for whatever point they're about to make, I guess,

00:56:35.760 | is the way that works.

00:56:37.760 | All right, one last question before

00:56:39.760 | I move on to my listener questions

00:56:41.760 | today. The other

00:56:43.760 | parallel I wanted to ask you about between us is

00:56:45.760 | that we both have these sort of elite-trained

00:56:47.760 | jobs. You're

00:56:49.760 | a medical doctor,

00:56:51.760 | I'm a fake doctor, professor,

00:56:53.760 | and we do

00:56:55.760 | talk about these other types of issues that are

00:56:57.760 | pragmatic on the side.

00:56:59.760 | What's that like as a medical doctor?

00:57:01.760 | Do people care? Is it

00:57:03.760 | awkward? Are people excited?

00:57:05.760 | I love it. I've helped

00:57:07.760 | a number of my colleagues tame their

00:57:09.760 | epic inboxes, and it makes

00:57:11.760 | me so happy when I can apply these

00:57:13.760 | lessons with the people I work with, and I would actually

00:57:15.760 | love to do more work with physicians.

00:57:17.760 | No, I talk about it. I mean, I don't do it in

00:57:19.760 | any official context in my

00:57:21.760 | workplace. That was something I thought

00:57:23.760 | about at one point, but then kind of just decided

00:57:25.760 | I'd rather keep it more neutral and

00:57:27.760 | not specifically medically-based.

00:57:29.760 | Every so often, a patient will be like,

00:57:31.760 | "I found your blog!" And that's why I

00:57:33.760 | actually think it says, "If you're a patient, it's fine.

00:57:35.760 | This is public. You can say hi. I don't mind."

00:57:37.760 | I read it. You said, "I'll own it," is what

00:57:39.760 | you said. It's fine. If you found this because you were

00:57:41.760 | Googling me because you just signed up for an appointment,

00:57:43.760 | it's okay.

00:57:45.760 | Exactly. So, it's

00:57:47.760 | fun. I'm very

00:57:49.760 | much in the doctor mindset.

00:57:51.760 | I don't think about this stuff when I'm at work,

00:57:53.760 | and I'm sure you're the same. It's like a split.

00:57:55.760 | "Okay, now I'm thinking about this. Now I'm thinking

00:57:57.760 | about that." But I'm

00:57:59.760 | amazed that you can do

00:58:01.760 | both, at least to some extent.

00:58:03.760 | It's been really fun so far.

00:58:05.760 | The split is with this particular topic.

00:58:07.760 | You can do both because this particular topic

00:58:09.760 | makes it much

00:58:11.760 | easier for you to do both because the whole particular topic

00:58:13.760 | is about planning and being okay with your time or

00:58:15.760 | whatever. If we were really into

00:58:17.760 | bird watching or something completely

00:58:19.760 | unrelated to planning on the side,

00:58:21.760 | then maybe it would be a problem.

00:58:23.760 | I'll say it's been weird

00:58:25.760 | for me because early on, for a

00:58:27.760 | while, when I was writing

00:58:29.760 | online or writing books, it really was very

00:58:31.760 | solidly in the productivity space. We just had this clear

00:58:33.760 | Chinese wall. Then over here, I'm doing algorithms.

00:58:35.760 | A lot of that's changed for me in the last

00:58:37.760 | six or seven years as more of my writing has

00:58:39.760 | turned towards technology

00:58:41.760 | and society.

00:58:43.760 | As my writing moved towards that, my academic role

00:58:45.760 | moved more towards that. Now those worlds are blended

00:58:47.760 | for me.

00:58:49.760 | It's almost harder.

00:58:51.760 | It's better because it's not as much overlap,

00:58:53.760 | but it's harder. I do miss the simplicity

00:58:55.760 | of my doctoral advisor

00:58:57.760 | coming back from the bookstore and saying, "Did you write a book?"

00:58:59.760 | "What's this thing I just saw

00:59:01.760 | in the bookstore?" It was like, "Yeah, I'm

00:59:03.760 | helping."

00:59:05.760 | At the time, I was doing a lot of student productivity. It was great.

00:59:07.760 | It was this nice, clear thing.

00:59:09.760 | It's like, "I'm a good triathlete

00:59:11.760 | and I'm a doctor."

00:59:13.760 | "Yeah, great. That's a great hobby

00:59:15.760 | or whatever other thing you do

00:59:17.760 | in your great shape or something." It's actually almost

00:59:19.760 | weirder for me now that my writing

00:59:21.760 | is

00:59:23.760 | a lot of my writing is now

00:59:25.760 | part of my job.

00:59:27.760 | That separation is not there.

00:59:29.760 | - That's a great progression, though.

00:59:31.760 | I think it's cool. I think your story makes total sense.

00:59:33.760 | - Yeah. Well, I'm having fun.

00:59:35.760 | I like thinking about things. Sarah, this

00:59:37.760 | was great. I really appreciate you coming on.

00:59:39.760 | Hopefully, my listeners got a lot

00:59:41.760 | of good advice out of this, thinking

00:59:43.760 | about your systems and how you approach

00:59:45.760 | life admin. I certainly did. I have some notes

00:59:47.760 | here I was taking. We're going to

00:59:49.760 | put some of this into action.

00:59:51.760 | Sarah, if you're looking for Sarah, the blog

00:59:53.760 | is theshoebox.shu.

00:59:55.760 | I am

00:59:57.760 | embarrassed, Sarah, to admit

00:59:59.760 | that it wasn't until I was preparing for this interview that I

01:00:01.760 | thought, "Oh, Sarah

01:00:03.760 | Hart Unger." - Oh, it's a terrible name. The name's

01:00:05.760 | from 2010 and it should probably

01:00:07.760 | just be SarahHartUnger.com.

01:00:09.760 | I tried to get bestladeplans.com, but it was like

01:00:11.760 | $25,000, so I couldn't

01:00:13.760 | do it. - Oh, come on. - But it's right now.

01:00:15.760 | - You and Laura can swing it. Get some of your advertising

01:00:17.760 | money. You know what, though? They say that

01:00:19.760 | I had to buy the deeplife.com

01:00:21.760 | and you

01:00:23.760 | hire someone

01:00:25.760 | to negotiate

01:00:27.760 | speaking of outsourcing, on your behalf.

01:00:29.760 | There's a whole industry out there, everyone. Domain,

01:00:31.760 | name, whatever it is,

01:00:33.760 | negotiation. So theshoebox.com

01:00:35.760 | and then that links to the blog,

01:00:37.760 | which is fantastic, but then also both of the

01:00:39.760 | podcasts. You can find out about both of the

01:00:41.760 | podcasts there and

01:00:43.760 | the course, I'm assuming, all that information

01:00:45.760 | is on theshoebox.shu.

01:00:47.760 | Sarah Hart Unger, shoebox.com. - Yeah,

01:00:49.760 | theshoebox.com. - Excellent.

01:00:51.760 | All right, well, thanks, Sarah. I really

01:00:53.760 | appreciate it. - Thank you so much

01:00:55.760 | for having me on. This was so fun. - All right,

01:00:57.760 | well, thank you, Sarah, for joining the show.

01:00:59.760 | That was great. You know, Jesse,

01:01:01.760 | I already have some ideas off of that.

01:01:03.760 | It's funny how different

01:01:05.760 | productivity can seem. I mean, it's a completely

01:01:07.760 | different game and in some ways it's a very similar game

01:01:09.760 | when you're talking about life outside of work.

01:01:11.760 | It's a part of my game that I need to clean up, so

01:01:13.760 | Sarah's sort of my guru there.

01:01:15.760 | Her podcast with Laura,

01:01:17.760 | which is,

01:01:19.760 | what is that podcast called?

01:01:21.760 | I think it's Best of Both Worlds. I'm just going to

01:01:23.760 | load it up here so I'm not...

01:01:25.760 | I know we mentioned it, but let me just make sure I'm saying it right.

01:01:27.760 | Yeah, Best of Both Worlds.

01:01:29.760 | That does a lot of productivity

01:01:31.760 | outside of work, a lot of productivity

01:01:33.760 | with the family. So if you're interested in this stuff, check out

01:01:35.760 | that podcast.

01:01:37.760 | They get into it all the time. All right, so I want to do

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01:03:47.760 | h-e-n-s-o-n-shaving.com/cal

01:03:49.760 | h-e-n-s-o-n-shaving.com/cal and use that code

01:03:51.760 | h-e-n-s-o-n-shaving.com/cal and use that code CAL.

01:03:53.760 | I also want to talk about our friends at Huel.

01:03:55.760 | h-u-e-l

01:03:57.760 | h-u-e-l

01:03:59.760 | Longtime listeners know my approach to

01:04:01.760 | healthy eating is to automate

01:04:03.760 | breakfast and lunch.

01:04:05.760 | I don't want to think about it.

01:04:07.760 | I want as much as possible to have the food

01:04:09.760 | I eat for these meals to be

01:04:11.760 | convenient and preplanned and healthy.

01:04:13.760 | And then I can care about food for dinner

01:04:15.760 | and cook and appreciate things

01:04:17.760 | and that's when I can actually expend energy on food.

01:04:19.760 | But I don't want to waste time and energy

01:04:21.760 | thinking about breakfast and lunch. I want to automate it to be

01:04:23.760 | things that I know are good,

01:04:25.760 | will give me energy, and I don't have to worry about it.

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01:04:33.760 | complete meal in a convenient shake.

01:04:35.760 | I like to use it as a

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01:04:41.760 | my body needs in just two scoops.

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01:04:45.760 | minerals and 40 grams of protein.

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01:04:49.760 | 200 calories, so if you do two scoops,

01:04:51.760 | you get roughly a normal-sized 400

01:04:53.760 | calorie meal, though you can adjust

01:04:55.760 | that depending on how much

01:04:57.760 | you want to consume.

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01:05:17.760 | and D3 are in there. It's available in nine

01:05:19.760 | flavors. I like the flavors. It's a good

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01:05:29.760 | I use the shaker because

01:05:31.760 | you put in the scoops in the water,

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01:05:37.760 | It's convenient. So go to Huel.com/questions

01:05:39.760 | to try out Huel

01:05:41.760 | Black Edition and get your free t-shirt

01:05:43.760 | and shaker.

01:05:45.760 | Let us do some questions,

01:05:47.760 | all vaguely about

01:05:49.760 | organization productivity outside the context

01:05:51.760 | of work. Jesse, what do we

01:05:53.760 | have on the docket first?

01:05:55.760 | - First question is from Yui.

01:05:57.760 | How do you manage your personal and family

01:05:59.760 | related tasks like life

01:06:01.760 | admin? I figure we should start

01:06:03.760 | with the core tech question.

01:06:05.760 | What tools am I using right now

01:06:07.760 | in my household?

01:06:09.760 | My wife and I are using

01:06:11.760 | Trello

01:06:13.760 | to organize and keep

01:06:15.760 | track of all of the various

01:06:17.760 | different tasks in our

01:06:19.760 | shared household life.

01:06:21.760 | So there's three boards here that are relevant to me.

01:06:23.760 | Two of them are shared with her and one

01:06:25.760 | of them is just for me. So the one for me I

01:06:27.760 | call personal and these are things

01:06:29.760 | that it's for me to do.

01:06:31.760 | She doesn't need to know about.

01:06:33.760 | Some of it's actual personal like it doesn't

01:06:35.760 | affect the family or family stuff that

01:06:37.760 | I thought of I need to do. I'm going

01:06:39.760 | to do it. I'll just put it right on my list.

01:06:41.760 | And then we have two shared one.

01:06:43.760 | One that just has generic family

01:06:45.760 | stuff and one that's specific

01:06:47.760 | for financial and financial

01:06:49.760 | related tasks. For the shared

01:06:51.760 | boards, they both have

01:06:53.760 | a Julia's,

01:06:55.760 | Julie and Cal is going to do

01:06:57.760 | column

01:06:59.760 | as well as sort of just general capture columns

01:07:01.760 | for different categories of tasks.

01:07:03.760 | Things get moved on to my

01:07:05.760 | list or her list once a decision has

01:07:07.760 | been made about who is going to do them.

01:07:09.760 | Then there's a list for what's actually

01:07:11.760 | being worked on this week.

01:07:13.760 | So things can be captured on here

01:07:15.760 | and at some point they might get moved

01:07:17.760 | to one of our responsibilities and

01:07:19.760 | then we look at the list of our responsibilities

01:07:21.760 | to try to figure out things to work on

01:07:23.760 | each week. We do do a rough

01:07:25.760 | weekly plan similar to what Sarah talked about

01:07:27.760 | earlier though I like the detail that Sarah gave

01:07:29.760 | so maybe we need to up our game there.

01:07:31.760 | We also rely heavily on a Google

01:07:33.760 | calendar. So our

01:07:35.760 | calendar show up, her calendar

01:07:37.760 | and my calendar just share on each other's.

01:07:39.760 | So I can see anything

01:07:41.760 | she adds, she can see anything I add.

01:07:43.760 | So either of us can add things,

01:07:45.760 | family things, household things and the other person

01:07:47.760 | will see it. Critical to our operations,

01:07:49.760 | I in particular have a pretty complicated

01:07:51.760 | calendar and so for her

01:07:53.760 | to be able to see my time and

01:07:55.760 | when might work or might not work and vice

01:07:57.760 | versa, that's really useful.

01:07:59.760 | We bought one of these digital

01:08:01.760 | picture frames

01:08:03.760 | that displays that shared

01:08:05.760 | calendar in our kitchen. It's a touch

01:08:07.760 | screen and you can see

01:08:09.760 | our shared calendars there and get a sense of what's going on

01:08:11.760 | in the day. We're not using it much though.

01:08:13.760 | Because we both check our

01:08:15.760 | normal calendars enough on our

01:08:17.760 | normal devices and everything is shared on

01:08:19.760 | there that having another

01:08:21.760 | interface for it didn't turn out to be as useful

01:08:23.760 | as we suspected it might be.

01:08:25.760 | And then the final thing we do, this is a

01:08:27.760 | conceptual system, not a technical system

01:08:29.760 | is we are big on something that

01:08:31.760 | Sarah talked about in the deep dive earlier

01:08:33.760 | which is there are clear spheres of

01:08:35.760 | responsibility. So there's certain

01:08:37.760 | types of tasks that show up all the time

01:08:39.760 | that we've just figured out.

01:08:41.760 | I always do this, you always do that.

01:08:43.760 | That's useful for the system as well.

01:08:45.760 | So it's not everything has to be considered

01:08:47.760 | and planned and assigned

01:08:49.760 | when it comes to doing the

01:08:51.760 | budget or paying

01:08:53.760 | our estimated quarterly taxes

01:08:55.760 | for example or mowing the

01:08:57.760 | yard. These are just on my list.

01:08:59.760 | And so it doesn't have to go

01:09:01.760 | through a full system of being surfaced

01:09:03.760 | and captured and assigned.

01:09:05.760 | I just do them. Typically these

01:09:07.760 | things will, a lot of them are recurring on my

01:09:09.760 | calendar. I just know I do it on the weekend.

01:09:11.760 | We do throw in spheres of responsibility

01:09:13.760 | to try to reduce

01:09:15.760 | pressure for bespoke

01:09:17.760 | on-demand scheduling as much as possible.

01:09:19.760 | That more or less works. But Sarah

01:09:21.760 | had some great ideas in this deep dive.

01:09:23.760 | We'll probably check in.

01:09:25.760 | Check in on our system soon

01:09:27.760 | and see where we might

01:09:29.760 | need some upgrades.

01:09:31.760 | How often do you check the Trello?

01:09:33.760 | Weekly plan.

01:09:35.760 | So you just look at it once and then...

01:09:37.760 | Yeah, that's what I do with my work Trello's as well.

01:09:39.760 | When I build my weekly plan

01:09:41.760 | if there's key things

01:09:43.760 | I want to get done, those get moved

01:09:45.760 | onto my weekly plan. I'll highlight

01:09:47.760 | them in there. And I can do the same with personal

01:09:49.760 | things. Hey, remember these three things have to get done

01:09:51.760 | this week. If I have a lot of little things

01:09:53.760 | you know, so if I'm doing a

01:09:55.760 | weekly review on either

01:09:57.760 | a professional or personal Trello,

01:09:59.760 | I'm like, man, there's 10 or 15 little things.

01:10:01.760 | Right? To make that

01:10:03.760 | concrete in my work life,

01:10:05.760 | this week I had a huge number of

01:10:07.760 | little things that all involved just my

01:10:09.760 | class. Just little things that

01:10:11.760 | had to happen as we wrapped

01:10:13.760 | up the semester. In that case

01:10:15.760 | I won't copy all

01:10:17.760 | that to my weekly plan, but I'll say in my

01:10:19.760 | weekly plan, we got a

01:10:21.760 | big bunch of tasks. They're small

01:10:23.760 | that need to get done on

01:10:25.760 | a few different things. So

01:10:27.760 | have a... and I'll put a plan for it.

01:10:29.760 | Have a 30 minute task block

01:10:31.760 | at least three times this week and go to the Trello

01:10:33.760 | and just start

01:10:35.760 | task whacking. This, this, this, and this.

01:10:37.760 | So I'll go back

01:10:39.760 | to the Trello, I guess is what I'm saying, is if

01:10:41.760 | my weekly plan says, I have moved

01:10:43.760 | a whole bunch of stuff for us to do this

01:10:45.760 | week and a lot of it's small. You just need to have

01:10:47.760 | sessions that just start, start whacking

01:10:49.760 | through it. And so in that case I will return

01:10:51.760 | to the Trello. But the big things

01:10:53.760 | when I'm doing my weekly plan, that's when I figure out what

01:10:55.760 | I want to do that week. And the big things I'll actually

01:10:57.760 | put it onto my plan. Make sure to do this.

01:10:59.760 | If it's really big, I'll put it onto my calendar.

01:11:01.760 | And for the little things, I'll just

01:11:03.760 | remind myself in the weekly plan, hey, there's a bunch of

01:11:05.760 | little things. So here's how much

01:11:07.760 | you need to go back to this and just

01:11:09.760 | start going through things. Got it. And the

01:11:11.760 | other times you go to Trello is when you add new

01:11:13.760 | work to it. Yeah. Yeah. So if I'm

01:11:15.760 | shutting down at the end of the day and I've captured

01:11:17.760 | stuff, I'll put it

01:11:19.760 | into, put in the Trello. So I see Trello

01:11:21.760 | a lot, but it's not a

01:11:23.760 | systematic part of

01:11:25.760 | my plan. Oh, check Trello every morning,

01:11:27.760 | check Trello every hour. It's once I

01:11:29.760 | do the weekly plan, it's more ad hoc

01:11:31.760 | when I go back in there

01:11:33.760 | and deal with it. Got it.

01:11:35.760 | I like Trello. I met the CEO once, you know.

01:11:37.760 | Yeah, I think you mentioned that.

01:11:39.760 | Yeah. Nice guy. Rich

01:11:41.760 | guy. All right.

01:11:43.760 | Let's move on. What do we got next?

01:11:45.760 | All right. Next question is from

01:11:47.760 | Gerald. Do you think that if you don't have

01:11:49.760 | at least an informal plan for every

01:11:51.760 | hour of the day, you are losing part of your day

01:11:53.760 | to ineffectiveness, even if it's recreation

01:11:55.760 | or family time? Or do you think having

01:11:57.760 | intentions for every part of your day leads

01:11:59.760 | to burnout?

01:12:01.760 | Well, Gerald, I mean, I do stand by

01:12:03.760 | time blocking at the level of intensity

01:12:05.760 | that I recommend for the professional day

01:12:07.760 | will burn you out if you don't have a break

01:12:09.760 | from it. So if you're

01:12:11.760 | locked in,

01:12:13.760 | what's next? Oh my god,

01:12:15.760 | I have a limited amount of time to get

01:12:17.760 | this done. I'm going to let the pressure

01:12:19.760 | of that time boundaries actually motivate

01:12:21.760 | me to focus even more. I mean, that's

01:12:23.760 | a very effective way

01:12:25.760 | of producing a lot of cognitive

01:12:27.760 | output in a fixed amount of time. But if you're doing

01:12:29.760 | that all hours of the day, you will burn out.

01:12:31.760 | It's just too much.

01:12:33.760 | On the other hand, I think you are right.

01:12:35.760 | If you come to your evenings

01:12:37.760 | and say, "All right, I'm

01:12:39.760 | done with work. Time to relax

01:12:41.760 | and maybe get some stuff done."

01:12:43.760 | You're not going to end up as relaxed as you

01:12:45.760 | think. Stuff is not going to get done. But

01:12:47.760 | more importantly, you're not going to actually commit

01:12:49.760 | to the type of activities that maybe would give you

01:12:51.760 | satisfaction or meaning.

01:12:53.760 | You're going to drift from thing to thing.

01:12:55.760 | Your phone is for sure going

01:12:57.760 | to insert itself into your time there and

01:12:59.760 | really dominate your attention. Your head's going to hit

01:13:01.760 | the pillow. You're not going to be particularly happy. So we need

01:13:03.760 | a middle ground between

01:13:05.760 | I'm looking at my planner and I got

01:13:07.760 | seven minutes to get these three things done.

01:13:09.760 | And I've just been on my phone

01:13:11.760 | for the last four hours. And

01:13:13.760 | I guess I need to go get

01:13:15.760 | a napkin because my eyes are bleeding

01:13:17.760 | from staring at

01:13:19.760 | memes on my screen.

01:13:21.760 | We need something in between.

01:13:23.760 | So I recommend sketching a plan.

01:13:25.760 | I use that terminology a lot. Sketch a

01:13:27.760 | plan for your evening. Sketch a

01:13:29.760 | plan for your weekend.

01:13:31.760 | And what that means can vary

01:13:33.760 | depending on the specificity. So it might

01:13:35.760 | mean, "Look, okay, at this exact

01:13:37.760 | time tonight, someone's coming over.

01:13:39.760 | I want to watch this show." And so some stuff might have

01:13:41.760 | time. Other stuff might be more

01:13:43.760 | lower grain. Like, try to

01:13:45.760 | take care of the packed stuff

01:13:47.760 | right after work. And

01:13:49.760 | let's try to exercise.

01:13:51.760 | Here's what we're going to do for dinner.

01:13:53.760 | Tonight, you know, let's

01:13:55.760 | get in some reading time on my book.

01:13:57.760 | So most of it's not attached to

01:13:59.760 | times. It's relatively

01:14:01.760 | loose. But it gives you some

01:14:03.760 | sense of, "I want to do this and that

01:14:05.760 | and here's what's happening tonight." And you're

01:14:07.760 | sketching a plan for a reasonable night. And then you do

01:14:09.760 | your best to more or less follow that. And if you missed

01:14:11.760 | time, something you added a little bit too much to it

01:14:13.760 | and something took more time, that doesn't really

01:14:15.760 | matter at all.

01:14:17.760 | What matters is, "I had some intentionality

01:14:19.760 | with my time. I thought through, like, what do I

01:14:21.760 | want to do tonight?" And I more or less followed

01:14:23.760 | that the best I could. That's the win

01:14:25.760 | here. Not, "I got

01:14:27.760 | through this many things," or "I'm on top of things."

01:14:29.760 | It's like, "I wasn't adrift."

01:14:31.760 | And these sketch plans can have plenty

01:14:33.760 | of downtime, but it's downtime on

01:14:35.760 | your terms. You say, "Well,

01:14:37.760 | in downtime, I could just sort of look at my phone

01:14:39.760 | while I'm eating dinner. Or, you know, if I

01:14:41.760 | ate early, I

01:14:43.760 | could go for a walk on this nature trail

01:14:45.760 | and listen to this novel

01:14:47.760 | I'm really enjoying and really get downtime

01:14:49.760 | that I really enjoy and is really relaxing

01:14:51.760 | and it feels really intentional."

01:14:53.760 | Or, "If I think about it,

01:14:55.760 | why don't we start bedtime

01:14:57.760 | 45 minutes earlier? Like, I can actually

01:14:59.760 | read a book with each of the kids, and, you know, that's actually

01:15:01.760 | going to be really enjoyable, but I had to think about that

01:15:03.760 | if we were just going through the motions and just looked up

01:15:05.760 | and said, 'It's bedtime,' we wouldn't be able to do it." So, I'm

01:15:07.760 | a big believer in sketching a plan

01:15:09.760 | for non-professional time.

01:15:11.760 | Intention is what matters,

01:15:13.760 | but don't care so much

01:15:15.760 | about how much you're fitting to that plan or whether you get

01:15:17.760 | everything done. I just want you to avoid

01:15:19.760 | wandering haphazardly

01:15:21.760 | during your time. And there's a difference.

01:15:23.760 | There is a difference on the spectrum from wandering

01:15:25.760 | haphazardly to being incredibly locked in.

01:15:27.760 | There is a gap

01:15:29.760 | in between there, which is where I think evenings

01:15:31.760 | and weekends can comfortably exist.

01:15:33.760 | Alright,

01:15:35.760 | what do we got next?

01:15:37.760 | I like this question. It's from Ricky.

01:15:39.760 | "There is one area of my personal

01:15:41.760 | productivity system that I haven't found a

01:15:43.760 | good way to handle ongoing activities.

01:15:45.760 | Usually, these are things that can sometimes be

01:15:47.760 | broken up into projects, but the overall

01:15:49.760 | area is something that you're never

01:15:51.760 | done with, like getting better at hockey, a

01:15:53.760 | hobby of mine. Any suggestions on

01:15:55.760 | how to handle staying on top of these?"

01:15:57.760 | So, Ricky, there's

01:15:59.760 | a different category

01:16:01.760 | of organizational commitment that

01:16:03.760 | becomes relevant here. This is

01:16:05.760 | what we can call systems, habits,

01:16:07.760 | or routines.

01:16:09.760 | So, it's things that have been worked into your schedule

01:16:11.760 | that you do on a

01:16:13.760 | regular basis, ad infinitum.

01:16:15.760 | This is just what I

01:16:17.760 | do. I exercise on Monday, Wednesday,

01:16:19.760 | and Fridays, and I do it after work,

01:16:21.760 | and I do it in the basement gym,

01:16:23.760 | and that's just what I do on those days.

01:16:25.760 | Or I

01:16:27.760 | play hockey with

01:16:29.760 | this adult league on

01:16:31.760 | Saturday mornings, and I do rink time

01:16:33.760 | on Monday

01:16:35.760 | evenings, and

01:16:37.760 | then I run two days a week

01:16:39.760 | for exercise. I just do

01:16:41.760 | that. It's not a task that I'm done, and I take it

01:16:43.760 | off my list. It's just part of my routine. So, we all

01:16:45.760 | have some systems,

01:16:47.760 | routines, and habits

01:16:49.760 | in our lives where we just get used to doing

01:16:51.760 | it. So, how do we

01:16:53.760 | install these things? Well, typically

01:16:55.760 | you put them on your calendar,

01:16:57.760 | and/or you do some

01:16:59.760 | sort of metric tracking on it. So, you have something

01:17:01.760 | to check off each day, "Did I really do this?"

01:17:03.760 | So, you instill the habit. There's a lot that's

01:17:05.760 | been written on how to instill a habit.

01:17:07.760 | And then once it's there, it

01:17:09.760 | will become more of a background

01:17:11.760 | part of your life. It generates a sense of

01:17:13.760 | identity, positive feedback,

01:17:15.760 | and then it's more likely to stick in.

01:17:17.760 | The issue is you can only fit so many of these.

01:17:19.760 | So, if you don't have

01:17:21.760 | any, that's a problem, because it's a very powerful

01:17:23.760 | weapon. When you work something

01:17:25.760 | into a background

01:17:27.760 | routine in your life, it just happens

01:17:29.760 | every week. You can

01:17:31.760 | just look up a year later, and typically

01:17:33.760 | really cool stuff has happened.

01:17:35.760 | It's the proverbial exercise

01:17:37.760 | routine. You make it a routine.

01:17:39.760 | You stop thinking about it. You just do it. But then

01:17:41.760 | a couple years later, you say, "Actually, I'm in pretty good shape.

01:17:43.760 | This paid off over time. I'm glad this is

01:17:45.760 | a part of my life."

01:17:47.760 | Another example would be my five books

01:17:49.760 | per month routine.

01:17:51.760 | I just do that. And now

01:17:53.760 | I don't think much about it. It's just that this is what I

01:17:55.760 | do. I read five books a month. We talk about them on the

01:17:57.760 | podcast. And that's really

01:17:59.760 | positive over time in my life, but I don't have to think

01:18:01.760 | about it. It's something I've instilled.

01:18:03.760 | But there's a limited number of things you could do.

01:18:05.760 | Maybe a

01:18:07.760 | fitness thing, a high-quality

01:18:09.760 | leisure thing. There's a few

01:18:11.760 | of these you can do where you're

01:18:13.760 | able to regularly put aside and protect

01:18:15.760 | time for a habit, routine, or ritual.

01:18:17.760 | And so you want to choose them very carefully.

01:18:19.760 | If you're not doing any,

01:18:21.760 | you're leaving a powerful weapon in the armory,

01:18:23.760 | and that's an issue. But if you have

01:18:25.760 | five or six different things, they're going to collide,

01:18:27.760 | and you're going to have to fail

01:18:29.760 | in your commitment to execute again and again.

01:18:31.760 | That destabilizes your commitment, and it

01:18:33.760 | eventually will dissolve.

01:18:35.760 | So when it comes to these serious

01:18:37.760 | "I do it all the time," five

01:18:39.760 | is probably the limit, depending on how big

01:18:41.760 | we're talking about. And maybe three is more

01:18:43.760 | reasonable. So it's almost like you want to have these

01:18:45.760 | slots written up on your wall.

01:18:47.760 | It's a draft.

01:18:49.760 | What do I want to draft? I have three slots for

01:18:51.760 | major routines I could have in my life outside of

01:18:53.760 | work. What are they going to be?

01:18:55.760 | And if something hasn't earned its place,

01:18:57.760 | I'm going to take that and replace it with something that's

01:18:59.760 | even more valuable. So you do want to take those seriously

01:19:01.760 | because you only have a limited

01:19:03.760 | capacity if you really want to stick with them.

01:19:05.760 | But you do want to be using these.

01:19:07.760 | So sports or

01:19:09.760 | athletic pursuit could be one. Everyone

01:19:11.760 | should have something here that has to do with fitness

01:19:13.760 | probably, just doing it again and again

01:19:15.760 | relating to fitness. I really like

01:19:17.760 | the idea of having some sort of intellectual, high-quality

01:19:19.760 | leisure in here, something you do

01:19:21.760 | on a very regular basis above the

01:19:23.760 | normal baseline that the average person would do

01:19:25.760 | that's pushing your mind, that's

01:19:27.760 | helping you psychologically or philosophically

01:19:29.760 | or theologically in some sort of

01:19:31.760 | regular way. I think that's really

01:19:33.760 | important. Beyond there,

01:19:35.760 | it just kind of comes to your interest. Maybe

01:19:37.760 | it's cooking or maybe it's a craft

01:19:39.760 | like with woodworking or knitting.

01:19:41.760 | I don't know. There's different things you could have

01:19:43.760 | in there. Maybe it's

01:19:45.760 | programming or microelectronics.

01:19:47.760 | But they have three, maybe four

01:19:49.760 | of these things that get serviced

01:19:51.760 | with rituals that you instill as, "I just do this

01:19:53.760 | on these days. I just always do that."

01:19:55.760 | I think that's part of a deep life.

01:19:57.760 | That's what I do with hockey,

01:19:59.760 | if I was you, Ricky. Golf.

01:20:01.760 | Golf, sure.

01:20:03.760 | Tennis.

01:20:05.760 | Tennis and golf. Just read a book

01:20:07.760 | about tennis.

01:20:09.760 | I have a few.

01:20:11.760 | Not too many, not too few.

01:20:13.760 | I like those.

01:20:15.760 | All right, let's do... We have a longer

01:20:17.760 | deep plate. Let's do another. We'll do one more question.

01:20:19.760 | All right, sounds good. We got a question

01:20:21.760 | from John.

01:20:23.760 | "I'd like to calculate my implicit hourly

01:20:25.760 | rate to determine if I should

01:20:27.760 | outsource a task instead of doing it myself.

01:20:29.760 | I struggle, though, when it comes to

01:20:31.760 | personal tasks that would take place

01:20:33.760 | outside of work hours, like yard work,

01:20:35.760 | home improvement, stuff like that. For these

01:20:37.760 | types of tasks, it's unlikely I would use the time

01:20:39.760 | saved from outsourcing the task

01:20:41.760 | to do more work that

01:20:43.760 | would earn my hourly rate

01:20:45.760 | because it's the weekend and I don't want to work then anyway."

01:20:47.760 | Yeah, so I've heard about this

01:20:49.760 | approach. This is the approach

01:20:51.760 | where you take your salary

01:20:53.760 | and you divide it by the number of hours

01:20:55.760 | you work, and then you say, "This

01:20:57.760 | is implicitly my hourly rate."

01:20:59.760 | And the idea is, in a professional context,

01:21:01.760 | when you're considering

01:21:03.760 | whether to do a particular

01:21:05.760 | annoying task, I'm going to

01:21:07.760 | format a presentation

01:21:09.760 | or

01:21:11.760 | whatever, fly

01:21:13.760 | a better flight that's going to save me time

01:21:15.760 | that's more expensive or something like this, you say, "Well,

01:21:17.760 | how much would it cost for me to

01:21:19.760 | hire someone? How much would it cost for me to take the

01:21:21.760 | better flight?" And then say,

01:21:23.760 | "Is that

01:21:25.760 | more or less than what

01:21:27.760 | it would cost me in terms of my hourly rate?"

01:21:29.760 | So if my hourly rate is

01:21:31.760 | $500 and it would take me

01:21:33.760 | three hours to do this annoying task, but

01:21:35.760 | I could hire someone for $300 to do it,

01:21:37.760 | you should hire someone for $300 because

01:21:39.760 | you're not out $300, you're actually

01:21:41.760 | saving $1,200. That's the

01:21:43.760 | mentality. It's a

01:21:45.760 | hack or heuristic that people sometimes use

01:21:47.760 | in work. John is asking about trying to

01:21:49.760 | do this with chores outside of work,

01:21:51.760 | and he says, "Ah, the analogy

01:21:53.760 | kind of breaks down because it's not as if

01:21:55.760 | the three hours I spend

01:21:57.760 | doing yard work is three

01:21:59.760 | hours I could be earning $1,500

01:22:01.760 | working because if I wasn't doing the yard work on

01:22:03.760 | Saturday, I wouldn't be working anyways."

01:22:05.760 | And I agree with that, John. I don't think

01:22:07.760 | the monetary framework

01:22:09.760 | is necessarily what

01:22:11.760 | you want to use for evaluating

01:22:13.760 | the worth of activities

01:22:15.760 | outside of work, at least in a very

01:22:17.760 | basic way. There's another

01:22:19.760 | way where I think money does matter here, but let's put that aside

01:22:21.760 | for now. Instead, the cost

01:22:23.760 | I want you to think about is in

01:22:25.760 | footprint on your schedule

01:22:27.760 | and stress.

01:22:29.760 | And so

01:22:31.760 | you look at, "How big of a footprint

01:22:33.760 | on my schedule is this particular household

01:22:35.760 | thing going to have?" If it's highly

01:22:37.760 | disruptive, it eats up

01:22:39.760 | the core of the weekend

01:22:41.760 | day that you otherwise as a family could be doing

01:22:43.760 | lots of other things, that's a heavy cost.

01:22:45.760 | If it's something that's very stressful for you,

01:22:47.760 | that's also a heavy cost.

01:22:49.760 | This was like me doing

01:22:51.760 | my own taxes.

01:22:53.760 | My issue is not that I

01:22:55.760 | am not

01:22:57.760 | quantitative or mathematical enough

01:22:59.760 | to understand taxes. The issue is I'm too

01:23:01.760 | mathematical and quantitative, and so

01:23:03.760 | my mind would

01:23:05.760 | hone in on the

01:23:07.760 | inevitable ambiguities or inconsistencies

01:23:09.760 | in the process of trying to

01:23:11.760 | fill out these different tax forms, and it would drive

01:23:13.760 | me crazy. And at some point, my

01:23:15.760 | wife said, "You're hiring someone to do the taxes."

01:23:17.760 | Because most people are like, "It's fine.

01:23:19.760 | This is probably fine. I know what this means.

01:23:21.760 | Fine." And I'm

01:23:23.760 | obsessing about, "Well, wait a second. How does this

01:23:25.760 | match with this? And is this really...?" And I'm trying to figure out

01:23:27.760 | the whole thing. It's my type of... So that's a high

01:23:29.760 | stress impact. So it's very costly

01:23:31.760 | to me. So when it comes

01:23:33.760 | to outsourcing or eliminating

01:23:35.760 | non-work

01:23:37.760 | obligations, that's the cost that you care about.

01:23:39.760 | If it has a highly disruptive

01:23:41.760 | footprint on your schedule,

01:23:43.760 | outsource or eliminate if you can.

01:23:45.760 | If it has a high impact in terms of your

01:23:47.760 | stress level, outsource

01:23:49.760 | or eliminate if you can.

01:23:51.760 | That's what you should be thinking about, not

01:23:53.760 | what your time is worth or

01:23:55.760 | your hourly rate or something like this.

01:23:57.760 | I agree that that doesn't come into it.

01:23:59.760 | So money is relevant here in the sense that outsourcing

01:24:01.760 | can take

01:24:03.760 | money, and that's

01:24:05.760 | fine. So you also have to factor in, "Can

01:24:07.760 | I afford this?" I do want to underscore

01:24:09.760 | though a point. We talked about this

01:24:11.760 | in the deep dive earlier in this episode

01:24:13.760 | when I was talking with Sarah Hart Unger. We talked

01:24:15.760 | about this a little bit, that

01:24:17.760 | I think we take off the

01:24:19.760 | table too quickly, the idea of

01:24:21.760 | investing in elimination of disruptive

01:24:23.760 | schedule footprints and

01:24:25.760 | overhead. We just

01:24:27.760 | take that off our list of things where it's

01:24:29.760 | valid to spend money on, even

01:24:31.760 | if we could. And we spend that same money

01:24:33.760 | on other types of things. So we're very comfortable

01:24:35.760 | when we're talking about

01:24:37.760 | dual-income,

01:24:39.760 | middle-class, coastal America

01:24:41.760 | or something like this. People are very comfortable with

01:24:43.760 | "We'll spend more

01:24:45.760 | money to have a

01:24:47.760 | nicer car."

01:24:49.760 | Or, "The environment's important

01:24:51.760 | so we're going to have a $70,000

01:24:53.760 | Tesla." We will spend, that's $50,000

01:24:55.760 | more than we need for the transportation, but

01:24:57.760 | we think it's important to us, and that's

01:24:59.760 | a good thing to spend money on. But if on

01:25:01.760 | the other hand, it's a few

01:25:03.760 | hundred dollars a month to take

01:25:05.760 | out this yard work chore

01:25:07.760 | that just eats up your schedule and

01:25:09.760 | is annoying for your family,

01:25:11.760 | you say, "I don't want to do that,

01:25:13.760 | because technically I could do this, and that

01:25:15.760 | feels like a waste of money."

01:25:17.760 | And we have these sort of inconsistencies

01:25:19.760 | happening all the time. "Well, here's an activity,

01:25:21.760 | a kid's kind of interested in this, we'll spend thousands

01:25:23.760 | on this activity,

01:25:25.760 | but the idea that we could hire a

01:25:27.760 | laundry service, I could do the laundry

01:25:29.760 | technically. And so, "No, I don't

01:25:31.760 | know, I don't want to do that, that's somehow a failure." In fact,

01:25:33.760 | that last one is a point that Laura Vanderkam talks

01:25:35.760 | about a lot, is many more

01:25:37.760 | people could and should be outsourcing their laundry,

01:25:39.760 | but they don't,

01:25:41.760 | because it's not in this list of

01:25:43.760 | psychologically appropriate things to spend money on.

01:25:45.760 | So I think we're weird, and we'll spend

01:25:47.760 | a huge amount of money on this, and

01:25:49.760 | on these things that have a cost in terms

01:25:51.760 | of schedule impact or stress outside of

01:25:53.760 | work, we're very reluctant to spend money.

01:25:55.760 | And I think we should change the thinking about

01:25:57.760 | it. So I think that's one issue.

01:25:59.760 | The other issue, and Sarah talked about

01:26:01.760 | this, is people don't like giving that advice

01:26:03.760 | because anytime you talk about

01:26:05.760 | investing money in anything, there's

01:26:07.760 | this knee-jerk response of, "Not

01:26:09.760 | everyone has the money for that."

01:26:11.760 | It's true of everything. It doesn't mean we shouldn't give

01:26:13.760 | the advice, because for a lot of people, it could be helpful.

01:26:15.760 | So that's what I would say, John,

01:26:17.760 | is look for, forget

01:26:19.760 | your hourly rate,

01:26:21.760 | what is the cost in terms

01:26:23.760 | of schedule disruption, what is the cost in terms of stress,

01:26:25.760 | and be more willing to

01:26:27.760 | invest in that than you might have otherwise

01:26:29.760 | been, more willing to invest in optimizing

01:26:31.760 | outsourcing that than you otherwise might have been.

01:26:33.760 | The final thing I want to say is often

01:26:35.760 | the solution here is not financial.

01:26:37.760 | It's elimination.

01:26:39.760 | So you have

01:26:41.760 | some sort of

01:26:43.760 | setup in your life that

01:26:45.760 | actually you could just stop

01:26:47.760 | doing this. You

01:26:49.760 | could step down from this position,

01:26:51.760 | you could reconfigure the specific

01:26:53.760 | teams that your kids are on. There's some

01:26:55.760 | things you could do that might have

01:26:57.760 | a huge win in terms of schedule

01:26:59.760 | input or stress, and

01:27:01.760 | you don't because it's, "Well, there's some

01:27:03.760 | advantage to this," or someone might be disappointed.

01:27:05.760 | And we don't take elimination

01:27:07.760 | seriously enough.

01:27:09.760 | But often elimination is

01:27:11.760 | possible, and people forget about

01:27:13.760 | it two weeks later. No one cares, but you've had this big

01:27:15.760 | gain as well. So outsourcing

01:27:17.760 | is one way to get rid of

01:27:19.760 | these high-cost, out-of-work

01:27:21.760 | activities. Elimination is the other, and they're

01:27:23.760 | both things that we don't think enough

01:27:25.760 | about.

01:27:27.760 | And so I'm glad you brought this up, John, because I think

01:27:29.760 | it's, I think these are both strategies

01:27:31.760 | that when we're thinking about organizing life outside

01:27:33.760 | of work, we should all think about more.

01:27:35.760 | I love

01:27:37.760 | eliminating things. My wife actually has to push

01:27:39.760 | back on that. Like, "Why don't we just stop doing

01:27:41.760 | it? Why don't we just start, why don't we just cancel

01:27:43.760 | this? Why don't we, why don't we do nothing?"

01:27:45.760 | And it's a little more complicated

01:27:47.760 | than that. Like, kids

01:27:49.760 | should be doing things.

01:27:51.760 | But like, some sports leagues

01:27:53.760 | make your schedule impossible.

01:27:55.760 | And this sports league, they're still playing

01:27:57.760 | the sport, but it's like way more reasonable.

01:27:59.760 | Like, you know, sometimes those

01:28:01.760 | type of things. Having kids play hockey is pretty

01:28:03.760 | tough because like ice time is always so like limited.

01:28:05.760 | It's late at night. It's late at night or early.

01:28:07.760 | Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hockey, hockey can be a

01:28:09.760 | rough one. That's the one

01:28:11.760 | advantage of baseball. Like

01:28:13.760 | it can't be played early in the morning, can't be played

01:28:15.760 | late at night. So at least you know.

01:28:17.760 | Unfortunately, it takes a very long time to play.

01:28:19.760 | [laughter]

01:28:21.760 | What's that? Soccer too.

01:28:23.760 | Soccer's pretty good. Yeah. There's no early morning

01:28:25.760 | fields. Rowing

01:28:27.760 | is bad. A lot of early morning.

01:28:29.760 | A lot of early mornings with rowing.

01:28:31.760 | All right. So I want to change

01:28:33.760 | gears. I've got a

01:28:35.760 | kind of hot take on

01:28:37.760 | AI I want to get to. Before

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01:30:35.760 | computer scientist hat

01:30:37.760 | here. I don't know what

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01:30:41.760 | but we can assume it would be pretty nerdy.

01:30:43.760 | Let's be

01:30:45.760 | honest about it. It would involve

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01:30:49.760 | a Star Trek reference. But if I can

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01:30:59.760 | Instead of directly connecting

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01:31:03.760 | you instead form an encrypted

01:31:05.760 | connection to a VPN server.

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01:31:09.760 | you tell the VPN server

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01:33:25.760 | Alright Jesse, let's switch gears

01:33:27.760 | for something interesting segment.

01:33:29.760 | Let's return to AI.

01:33:31.760 | We talked about chat GPT a few weeks

01:33:33.760 | ago in my article for the New Yorker about

01:33:35.760 | how it actually works. Now

01:33:37.760 | I want to return to the topic of

01:33:39.760 | how should we

01:33:41.760 | think about the AI

01:33:43.760 | revolution happening now? How worried

01:33:45.760 | should we be? What is the philosophically

01:33:47.760 | the right approach

01:33:49.760 | to this current moment?

01:33:51.760 | The article I want to use as our

01:33:53.760 | foundation here, what got me thinking about this

01:33:55.760 | was the article I'm bringing up on the screen

01:33:57.760 | right now.

01:33:59.760 | If you're watching,

01:34:01.760 | this is episode 247

01:34:03.760 | and you can find that at youtube.com/calnewportmedia

01:34:07.760 | or if you don't like YouTube at thedeeplife.com

01:34:10.760 | just look for episode 247 and you can find

01:34:12.760 | this segment so you can see the article on the screen.

01:34:15.760 | If you're listening, I'll narrate what I'm talking about.

01:34:17.760 | The article I'm talking about here is titled

01:34:20.760 | "There is no turning back

01:34:22.760 | on AI."

01:34:24.760 | It was written by the economist

01:34:26.760 | Tyler Cowen,

01:34:28.760 | nearby here, George Mason University,

01:34:30.760 | professor and prolific writer

01:34:32.760 | of public-facing books.

01:34:34.760 | This is from May 4th

01:34:36.760 | and he published this in Barry Weiss's

01:34:38.760 | newsletter

01:34:40.760 | The Free Press.

01:34:42.760 | I want to highlight a few things from this and then I'm going to

01:34:44.760 | riff on it.

01:34:46.760 | Here's the first point.

01:34:48.760 | I'm reading this from Tyler's article.

01:34:50.760 | "Artificial intelligence

01:34:52.760 | represents a truly major

01:34:54.760 | transformational technological

01:34:57.760 | advance."

01:34:59.760 | He's starting right off and saying this is

01:35:01.760 | a big deal.

01:35:03.760 | He goes on to say

01:35:07.760 | "In my view, however,

01:35:09.760 | the good will considerably

01:35:11.760 | outweigh the bad."

01:35:13.760 | He makes a comparison here to Gutenberg.

01:35:16.760 | He says, "I am reminded of the advent of the

01:35:18.760 | printing press after Gutenberg.

01:35:20.760 | Of course, the press

01:35:22.760 | brought an immense amount

01:35:24.760 | of good. It enabled

01:35:26.760 | the scientific and industrial revolutions, among other

01:35:28.760 | benefits, but it also created writings by

01:35:30.760 | Lenin, Hitler, and Mao's Red Book."

01:35:32.760 | The printing

01:35:34.760 | press brought good, it brought bad, but in the

01:35:36.760 | end, the good

01:35:38.760 | outweighed the

01:35:40.760 | disruptions and negativity that came

01:35:42.760 | along with it.

01:35:44.760 | He goes on to say,

01:35:48.760 | "We don't know how to respond

01:35:50.760 | psychologically, or for that matter,

01:35:52.760 | substantively.

01:35:54.760 | And just about all of the

01:35:56.760 | responses I am seeing, I interpret as

01:35:58.760 | copes, whether from the optimist, the

01:36:00.760 | pessimist, or the extreme

01:36:02.760 | pessimist."

01:36:04.760 | This is the setup for Tyler's article.

01:36:06.760 | He says, "I think there's this disruptive change that's coming.

01:36:08.760 | It's going to be like Gutenberg.

01:36:10.760 | The good will eventually outweigh the bad."

01:36:12.760 | But he

01:36:14.760 | is making the claim that as a

01:36:16.760 | culture right now, we are not psychologically

01:36:18.760 | handling well this reality.

01:36:20.760 | We don't know how

01:36:22.760 | to respond to it.

01:36:24.760 | And so he is going to move on now with a critique

01:36:26.760 | of how we are responding

01:36:28.760 | to what he sees to be that

01:36:30.760 | reality. So here's

01:36:32.760 | his critique. The first part of his

01:36:34.760 | critique of our current response is

01:36:36.760 | saying, "No one

01:36:38.760 | is good at protecting the

01:36:40.760 | longer or even medium-term

01:36:42.760 | outcomes of radical

01:36:44.760 | technological changes.

01:36:46.760 | No one. Not you.

01:36:48.760 | Not

01:36:50.760 | Eleazar."

01:36:52.760 | He's referencing here

01:36:54.760 | someone who's on the extreme

01:36:56.760 | X-risk AI is about to take over

01:36:58.760 | the world and enslave us.

01:37:00.760 | Not Sam Altman.

01:37:02.760 | And not your next-door neighbor.

01:37:04.760 | So he's arguing, "We

01:37:06.760 | are very bad at predicting the impacts of

01:37:08.760 | disruptive technologies in the moment."

01:37:10.760 | He makes it clear. Here's his examples.

01:37:12.760 | "How well do people predict the final impacts

01:37:14.760 | of the printing press? How well do people predict

01:37:16.760 | the impacts of fire?" He's saying they didn't.

01:37:18.760 | In the moment, it's very hard to understand

01:37:20.760 | what's going to happen.

01:37:22.760 | And so Cowan's making this point.

01:37:24.760 | We know this disruptive thing

01:37:26.760 | feels like it's about to happen, but we're not

01:37:28.760 | handling it well, in part

01:37:30.760 | because we're missing the reality

01:37:32.760 | that it is very difficult to predict

01:37:34.760 | what really

01:37:36.760 | happens. And a lot

01:37:38.760 | of the reactions right now are what he

01:37:40.760 | calls "copes," which are based off of

01:37:42.760 | very specific predictions about what will

01:37:44.760 | happen or what definitely won't happen. And he thinks

01:37:46.760 | that's all just

01:37:48.760 | psychologically bankrupt.

01:37:50.760 | It's not really based on reality.

01:37:52.760 | We're just making predictions we have no

01:37:54.760 | right to make, and then

01:37:56.760 | reacting to those.

01:37:58.760 | Then he goes on to apply this critique specifically

01:38:00.760 | to the existential

01:38:02.760 | risks of things like artificial

01:38:04.760 | general intelligence.

01:38:06.760 | He says, "When

01:38:08.760 | it comes to people who are predicting this

01:38:10.760 | high degree of existential risk," he says, "I

01:38:12.760 | don't actually think arguing

01:38:14.760 | back on their chosen terms is the correct

01:38:16.760 | response. Radical

01:38:18.760 | agnosticism is

01:38:20.760 | the correct response, where all specific

01:38:22.760 | scenarios are pretty unlikely."

01:38:24.760 | I'm still for people doing

01:38:26.760 | constructive work on the problem of alignment, just

01:38:28.760 | as we do for all other technologies to improve

01:38:30.760 | them, but he's making the case

01:38:32.760 | you don't need to be worried about that.

01:38:34.760 | People should work

01:38:36.760 | on these issues, but the only

01:38:38.760 | actual intellectually consistent position

01:38:40.760 | on something like the existential risk of AI

01:38:42.760 | is radical agnosticism. I know a lot of stuff is

01:38:44.760 | possible. All of it's pretty unlikely.

01:38:46.760 | There's a lot of other existential risks in

01:38:48.760 | our life where it's in that same category,

01:38:50.760 | and we could put this in a

01:38:52.760 | similar place.

01:38:54.760 | So he goes on to say, "I'm a bit distressed each time

01:38:56.760 | I read an account of a person

01:38:58.760 | arguing himself or arguing herself

01:39:00.760 | into existential risk from AI

01:39:02.760 | being a major concern.

01:39:04.760 | No one can foresee those

01:39:06.760 | futures. Once you keep up

01:39:08.760 | the arguing, you also are

01:39:10.760 | talking yourself into an illusion of

01:39:12.760 | predictability." And he goes

01:39:14.760 | on to say, "Once you're trying to predict a future,

01:39:16.760 | it's easy to predict a negative future than a positive

01:39:18.760 | future, because positive futures are bespoke.

01:39:20.760 | They're built on

01:39:22.760 | very specific things, lean to other very

01:39:24.760 | specific things. That's really hard to try to

01:39:26.760 | imagine. It's much easier to say

01:39:28.760 | 'it all collapses.' That's an easier prediction

01:39:30.760 | to make."

01:39:32.760 | So

01:39:34.760 | he goes on to say, "Basically, so for this

01:39:36.760 | particular issue of existential risk from AI,

01:39:38.760 | he says, 'It is

01:39:40.760 | indeed a distant possibility,

01:39:42.760 | just like every other future you

01:39:44.760 | might be trying to imagine. All the possibilities

01:39:46.760 | are distance. I cannot stress that enough.

01:39:48.760 | The mere fact that AGI risk can be

01:39:50.760 | put on par with those other also-distance

01:39:52.760 | possibilities simply should not impress you very

01:39:54.760 | much." There's a lot of potential

01:39:56.760 | futures to negative things happen. We're already

01:39:58.760 | used to that. AI doesn't have

01:40:00.760 | a particularly new thing to offer

01:40:02.760 | to that landscape.

01:40:04.760 | So in the end, when he's thinking about how do we

01:40:06.760 | consider AI,

01:40:08.760 | he says, "Look, if

01:40:10.760 | someone is obsessively arguing about the details

01:40:12.760 | of AI technology today,

01:40:14.760 | or arguments they read on a blog like

01:40:16.760 | 'Less Wrong' from 11 years ago,

01:40:18.760 | they won't see this. But don't be

01:40:20.760 | suckered into taking their bait.

01:40:22.760 | The longer historical perspective you

01:40:24.760 | take, the more obvious this point will

01:40:26.760 | be."

01:40:28.760 | So let me step back here for a second.

01:40:30.760 | What he's arguing

01:40:32.760 | that I agree with, I think,

01:40:34.760 | is an unusually

01:40:36.760 | pragmatic take

01:40:38.760 | on this issue, given our current

01:40:40.760 | cultural moment, which I'm going to summarize everything I

01:40:42.760 | just said. We are bad at

01:40:44.760 | predicting the impacts of technologies,

01:40:46.760 | so don't trust people who are being very

01:40:48.760 | specific about what's

01:40:50.760 | going to happen with AI and then

01:40:52.760 | trying to react to those.

01:40:54.760 | We can't figure that

01:40:56.760 | out with AI, just like in

01:40:58.760 | 15-whatever, Franzi Gutenberg

01:41:00.760 | couldn't even look 20 years into the future

01:41:02.760 | about what the impact of the printing

01:41:04.760 | press is going to be.

01:41:06.760 | So the problem I see, and this is what I

01:41:08.760 | think Cowan is very right about,

01:41:10.760 | the problem I see with the current discussion about

01:41:12.760 | artificial intelligence and its impact is that

01:41:14.760 | what a lot of people are doing

01:41:16.760 | is they're looking at

01:41:18.760 | often cherry-picked examples

01:41:20.760 | of these technologies at work.

01:41:22.760 | And because these are linguistic examples,

01:41:24.760 | if we're talking about chatbot examples, they

01:41:26.760 | feel very

01:41:28.760 | close to us as human

01:41:30.760 | beings. We then try to

01:41:32.760 | extrapolate what type of mind

01:41:34.760 | could produce the type

01:41:36.760 | of thing I'm seeing in this example. We might imagine

01:41:38.760 | my 4-year-old couldn't do that,

01:41:40.760 | maybe my 13-year-old could answer those

01:41:42.760 | questions, so maybe this thing is like

01:41:44.760 | a 13-year-old's mind in there. Once

01:41:46.760 | we've imagined the type of mind

01:41:48.760 | that could produce the type of things we've seen,

01:41:50.760 | we then imagine the type

01:41:52.760 | of impacts that that type of

01:41:54.760 | imaginary mind might have.

01:41:56.760 | Well, if we had that type of mind, it could do this and this

01:41:58.760 | and that. Now we've created imagined

01:42:00.760 | scenarios based off of imagined understandings

01:42:02.760 | of the technology, and we treat that

01:42:04.760 | like this

01:42:06.760 | will happen, and then we get worried about

01:42:08.760 | those scenarios.

01:42:10.760 | This is exactly what Cowan is saying that we shouldn't do.

01:42:12.760 | These aren't actually strong predictions.

01:42:14.760 | These are thought experiments.

01:42:16.760 | If we had a mind that could do this,

01:42:18.760 | what types of damage could it wreak? And then we're

01:42:20.760 | getting upset about the impacts

01:42:22.760 | of those thought experiments.

01:42:24.760 | So what I think we should do instead,

01:42:26.760 | culturally speaking,

01:42:28.760 | is stop reacting to thought experiments

01:42:30.760 | and start reacting to actual

01:42:32.760 | impacts.

01:42:34.760 | I don't necessarily want to hear any more stories

01:42:36.760 | about, "Well, in theory,

01:42:38.760 | a chatbot that could do this could also

01:42:40.760 | do that, and if it could do that, this industry could disappear."

01:42:42.760 | I think for the broader

01:42:44.760 | public, what you should filter for

01:42:46.760 | is tangible impacts.

01:42:48.760 | This industry changed.

01:42:50.760 | This job doesn't

01:42:52.760 | exist anymore. This company just

01:42:54.760 | fired 30% of its staff.

01:42:56.760 | When you see actual, tangible

01:42:58.760 | benefits, not predictions about what hypothetical

01:43:00.760 | minds might reap, that's

01:43:02.760 | what you should filter for. That's what you should

01:43:04.760 | use to refine your understanding of whatever

01:43:06.760 | ongoing change is happening and adjust

01:43:08.760 | accordingly. I think that's the filtering

01:43:10.760 | we have to do now. And look, there's

01:43:12.760 | no shortage of people

01:43:14.760 | actually attempting things

01:43:16.760 | that will generate real impacts. I spoke

01:43:18.760 | on a panel a couple of weekends

01:43:20.760 | ago out in San Francisco on generative AI.

01:43:22.760 | I spoke on the panel with one of the VCs

01:43:24.760 | that funded OpenAI.

01:43:26.760 | He was saying OpenAI

01:43:28.760 | already is bringing in, on track to bring

01:43:30.760 | in more than $100 million in revenue,

01:43:32.760 | commercial revenue of people

01:43:34.760 | and companies paying for API

01:43:36.760 | access to their GPT-4

01:43:38.760 | back-end language

01:43:40.760 | model. It's possible they'll be

01:43:42.760 | on track for billion-dollar revenue,

01:43:44.760 | annual revenue within a year. It's an

01:43:46.760 | amazingly fast climb. But the point is, there is

01:43:48.760 | a ton of people

01:43:50.760 | investing money to

01:43:52.760 | try to use this technology and integrate it into their

01:43:54.760 | work. So it's not as if there

01:43:56.760 | is a shortage of people

01:43:58.760 | doing things that could generate impacts.

01:44:00.760 | So my,

01:44:02.760 | I think the time is right then. My advice is let's filter

01:44:04.760 | for actual impacts. That's what, unless

01:44:06.760 | you're in a very rarified position that needs to

01:44:08.760 | very specifically make predictions about

01:44:10.760 | what's going to happen to my company in the next six months,

01:44:12.760 | filter for impacts.

01:44:14.760 | If you hear

01:44:16.760 | someone say, "This could happen

01:44:18.760 | because of this example,"

01:44:20.760 | change that to the Charlie Brown voice.

01:44:22.760 | What you want to hear is,

01:44:24.760 | "This company just shut down.

01:44:26.760 | That's interesting. That's a data point

01:44:28.760 | you should care about.

01:44:30.760 | This publishing imprint just

01:44:32.760 | fired all of its authors. Ooh, that's a data point.

01:44:34.760 | Okay, now I'm starting to understand what's going on."

01:44:36.760 | Because there's no real reason

01:44:38.760 | to get upset about things that

01:44:40.760 | are these predictions that are based off

01:44:42.760 | of hypothetical minds because most of them won't come true.

01:44:44.760 | This is Cognitive Behavioral

01:44:46.760 | Therapy 101.

01:44:48.760 | It's called the Predicting the Future, Cognitive

01:44:50.760 | Distortion. It's not worth getting upset

01:44:52.760 | about predicted futures. It's much better

01:44:54.760 | to confront things that actually

01:44:56.760 | have happened.

01:44:58.760 | Now there is one

01:45:00.760 | place where I disagree some with Cowan.

01:45:02.760 | So I think

01:45:04.760 | Cowan takes this for granted

01:45:06.760 | that we know now that there will be a major disruption

01:45:08.760 | Gutenberg style.

01:45:10.760 | He takes that for granted. And I think very

01:45:12.760 | wisely says, "You kind of

01:45:14.760 | have to just go along for the ride, react

01:45:16.760 | to actual impacts, not the prediction of impacts,

01:45:18.760 | etc., etc."

01:45:20.760 | I'm not convinced yet

01:45:22.760 | that a major disruption is going to happen.

01:45:24.760 | I'm not convinced that it's not going to happen

01:45:26.760 | either. But we need

01:45:28.760 | to still take seriously

01:45:30.760 | and tell disproved what I call

01:45:32.760 | the AI null hypothesis.

01:45:34.760 | The AI

01:45:36.760 | null hypothesis is

01:45:38.760 | the claim

01:45:40.760 | that the ultra-large

01:45:42.760 | language model revolution that kicked

01:45:44.760 | off two years ago with GPT-3 in the

01:45:46.760 | next five or seven years

01:45:48.760 | is not actually going to make

01:45:50.760 | a notable impact on

01:45:52.760 | most people's lives.

01:45:54.760 | That hypothesis

01:45:56.760 | has not yet been disproven.

01:45:58.760 | The way that will be

01:46:00.760 | disproven, and this is

01:46:02.760 | Karl Popper here, the way that

01:46:04.760 | hypothesis will be proven

01:46:06.760 | is when actual impacts,

01:46:08.760 | not predictions of impacts, not thought experiments

01:46:10.760 | about if it could do this, then it could do that,

01:46:12.760 | when actual impacts do show up that begin

01:46:14.760 | having a material impact on the day-to-day

01:46:16.760 | experience of people in their lives,

01:46:18.760 | then it will be disproven.

01:46:20.760 | But until we get there, we do have

01:46:22.760 | to keep that as one of the possibilities going

01:46:24.760 | forward. And based on what I know

01:46:26.760 | right now, I would say it's

01:46:28.760 | not a given.

01:46:30.760 | It's not even necessarily the

01:46:32.760 | likely outcome, but probably the percentage

01:46:34.760 | chance here that the AI null

01:46:36.760 | hypothesis proves true is probably somewhere between

01:46:38.760 | 10 to 50%. It's non-trivial.

01:46:40.760 | And so I think we

01:46:42.760 | do have to keep that in mind.

01:46:44.760 | It's possible

01:46:46.760 | as well that

01:46:48.760 | it turns out that these

01:46:50.760 | ultra-large language models, though

01:46:52.760 | impressively linguistic, when we begin to try to

01:46:54.760 | make them focused in and bespoke on these

01:46:56.760 | particular issues, the issues

01:46:58.760 | with hallucination, the issues with

01:47:00.760 | non-conceptual thinking, the

01:47:02.760 | limits that turn out to emerge

01:47:04.760 | from under the hood, what you're doing is

01:47:06.760 | token guessing with the goal of trying to create

01:47:08.760 | grammatically correct sentences that match content

01:47:10.760 | and style cues, that that may end

01:47:12.760 | up being more limited than we think.

01:47:14.760 | The computational expense is larger than it's worth it.

01:47:16.760 | We have a

01:47:18.760 | OpenAI gets a couple hundred billion dollars worth of

01:47:20.760 | API subscriptions, and then it dwindles back down

01:47:22.760 | again because it turns out, "Huh, this is not really

01:47:24.760 | opening up something that I didn't already

01:47:26.760 | wasn't already able to more or less

01:47:28.760 | do or to use a bespoke AI

01:47:30.760 | model or to actually just hire someone to do this."

01:47:32.760 | And that's very possible.

01:47:34.760 | And that we're actually at the peak right now

01:47:36.760 | of 100 million people

01:47:38.760 | just liking to use the chatbot and being

01:47:40.760 | impressed by what it does. I'm not saying that's

01:47:42.760 | going to happen, but it's also not a weird

01:47:44.760 | thesis. So I do think that needs to

01:47:46.760 | be in the hypothesis, as the AI null

01:47:48.760 | hypothesis itself is something that's still

01:47:50.760 | on the table. So we have

01:47:52.760 | a wide extreme of possibilities here

01:47:54.760 | from the AI null hypothesis

01:47:56.760 | to the most extreme

01:47:58.760 | to the AI null hypothesis.

01:48:00.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:02.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:04.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:06.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:08.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:10.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:12.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:14.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:16.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:18.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:20.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:22.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:24.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:26.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:28.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:30.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:32.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:34.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:36.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:38.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:40.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:42.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:44.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:46.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:48.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:50.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:52.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:54.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:56.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:48:58.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:00.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:02.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:04.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:06.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:08.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:10.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:12.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:14.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:16.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:18.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:20.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:22.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:24.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:26.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:28.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:30.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:32.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:34.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:36.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:38.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:40.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:42.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:44.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:46.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:48.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:50.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:52.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:54.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:56.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:49:58.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:00.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:02.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:04.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:06.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:08.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:10.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:12.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:14.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:16.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:18.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:20.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:22.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:24.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:26.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:28.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:30.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:32.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:34.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:36.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:38.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:40.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:42.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:44.760 | And I think that's a good thing.

01:50:46.760 | And OpenAI talks about it as a reasoning agent.

01:50:48.760 | And OpenAI talks about it as a reasoning agent.

01:50:50.760 | They talk about some of the things that these models have to learn to do

01:50:52.760 | They talk about some of the things that these models have to learn to do

01:50:54.760 | in order to win at the text guessing game.

01:50:56.760 | in order to win at the text guessing game.

01:50:58.760 | They're like, "Well, it's as if it understands this or that

01:51:00.760 | because it has to be able to understand these things

01:51:02.760 | to be able to do better at predicting the text.

01:51:04.760 | But in the end, all it's doing is predicting text."

01:51:06.760 | And it often...

01:51:08.760 | There's lots of interactions that lots of people have had

01:51:10.760 | There's lots of interactions that lots of people have had

01:51:12.760 | that are non-useful and non-impressive,

01:51:14.760 | and they post those on Twitter.

01:51:16.760 | So I do think that effect is going on as well.

01:51:18.760 | None of this is helped by...

01:51:20.760 | There's not a lot of transparency from OpenAI.

01:51:22.760 | There's a lot of questions we have that we don't understand

01:51:24.760 | about how this technology works.

01:51:26.760 | There's not a lot yet on how people are using this concretely.

01:51:28.760 | We get the chatter on social media.

01:51:30.760 | We get the chatter on YouTube.

01:51:32.760 | And I'm trying to work on this topic now.

01:51:34.760 | Boots on grounds.

01:51:36.760 | Real companies actually using these interfaces.

01:51:38.760 | Are they having transformative change?

01:51:40.760 | Or is it being very minor?

01:51:42.760 | I don't see a good sense yet.

01:51:44.760 | I saw one concrete thing where the Chegg CEO,

01:51:46.760 | I saw one concrete thing where the Chegg CEO,

01:51:48.760 | that online homework thing,

01:51:50.760 | their sales went down, and they contributed it too.

01:51:52.760 | But that's whatever.

01:51:54.760 | These are things we should focus on.

01:51:56.760 | These are things we should focus on.

01:51:58.760 | What are concrete impacts?

01:52:00.760 | Maybe students can...

01:52:02.760 | It's good at generating text on topics.

01:52:04.760 | So maybe that's going to make the places

01:52:06.760 | where you buy the pre-written solutions

01:52:08.760 | less valuable.

01:52:10.760 | And now create mills where you just,

01:52:12.760 | instead of paying students, just have ChatGPT

01:52:14.760 | generate a bunch of those essays.

01:52:16.760 | Maybe.

01:52:18.760 | I'm also not convinced, however, that

01:52:20.760 | these responses aren't

01:52:22.760 | pretty easily identifiable.

01:52:24.760 | At some point you identify the...

01:52:26.760 | It's not hard for teachers to identify the ticks of these models

01:52:28.760 | versus their students.

01:52:30.760 | So there we go. But that's a concrete thing.

01:52:32.760 | So it's like, how worried does that make you?

01:52:34.760 | That thing by itself does it.

01:52:36.760 | But these are the type of things we should be looking for.

01:52:38.760 | The other thing I thought about is

01:52:40.760 | OpenAI is real big on... It does a lot of useful

01:52:42.760 | stuff for coders. They have a customized

01:52:44.760 | version that helps you if you're coding.

01:52:46.760 | And it can generate

01:52:48.760 | early versions of code or

01:52:50.760 | help you understand library interfaces or this or that.

01:52:52.760 | But what came to mind is

01:52:54.760 | the biggest productivity boost

01:52:56.760 | in coding in the last

01:52:58.760 | 20 years

01:53:00.760 | was when the common interface

01:53:02.760 | development environments like Eclipse

01:53:04.760 | introduced... I don't know the exact

01:53:06.760 | terminology for it, but it's where

01:53:08.760 | it auto fills

01:53:10.760 | or shows you, for example, here...

01:53:12.760 | You're typing a function. Here's all the

01:53:14.760 | parameters you need to give me.

01:53:16.760 | So you don't have to look it up in the documentation.

01:53:18.760 | Or if you have an object, an object-oriented

01:53:20.760 | programming, and you're like, "I don't know the methods

01:53:22.760 | for this object." You just type the object name,

01:53:24.760 | press period, and there's a big list. "Oh, here's all the different

01:53:26.760 | things you can do with this." And you select one and it says,

01:53:28.760 | "Oh, here is the

01:53:30.760 | parameters." And I noticed

01:53:32.760 | this when I'm coding my Arduino

01:53:34.760 | with my son

01:53:36.760 | to build video games in Arduino. It's really

01:53:38.760 | useful. It's like, "Oh, I need to draw a circle."

01:53:40.760 | Instead of having to go look up how

01:53:42.760 | to do that, you just start typing

01:53:44.760 | in "draw" and it's like, "Oh, here's all the different

01:53:46.760 | functions to start with draw. Oh, here's draw circle."

01:53:48.760 | You click on it. It's like, "Okay, so here's

01:53:50.760 | the parameters. Give it the center

01:53:52.760 | and the radius and the color." Like, "Great. I don't have to

01:53:54.760 | look this up." That's a huge productivity win.

01:53:56.760 | It makes programming much easier.

01:53:58.760 | No one thought about that as,

01:54:00.760 | "Is this industry going to be

01:54:02.760 | here?" But it was a huge

01:54:04.760 | win, just like version

01:54:06.760 | control. It was a huge win and made

01:54:08.760 | things really much more productive

01:54:10.760 | for software developers. But it wasn't,

01:54:12.760 | "Will this field still

01:54:14.760 | exist?" And so there's definitely a future

01:54:16.760 | where the

01:54:18.760 | LLM impact on coding

01:54:20.760 | is like those things. Like, "Wow, a bunch of things

01:54:22.760 | got a lot easier. I'm really happy.

01:54:24.760 | I'm glad that got easier." It reminds

01:54:26.760 | me of when GitHub came around or IDE

01:54:28.760 | started doing autofill.

01:54:30.760 | It wasn't an existential risk to our industry,

01:54:32.760 | but it's a march towards making our life easier.

01:54:34.760 | So there's a future in which

01:54:36.760 | these are the type of things we're talking about.

01:54:38.760 | And so, I'm

01:54:40.760 | waiting to see. I want to see concrete.

01:54:42.760 | I want to see concrete things.

01:54:44.760 | We'll find out. But anyways, AI null hypothesis

01:54:46.760 | is possible. You should talk about it. Regardless

01:54:48.760 | of what happens, focus on the impacts. Filter the

01:54:50.760 | predictions. People like making

01:54:52.760 | predictions, but a lot of them are nonsense.

01:54:54.760 | Speaking of nonsense,

01:54:56.760 | we should probably wrap this up, Jesse.

01:54:58.760 | Thank you, everyone who listened. We'll be back

01:55:00.760 | next week with another episode of the show.

01:55:02.760 | And until then, as always,

01:55:04.760 | stay deep.

01:55:06.760 | [outro music]

01:55:08.760 | (upbeat music)

Ep. 247: The Productive Life (w/ Sarah Hart-Unger)

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