Ep. 234: Ambition Without Burnout

00:00:00.000 | And I'm going to use that to inspire the deep question that we are going to get

00:00:04.880 | into in today's episode, which is,

00:00:07.480 | how can we be ambitious without burning out?

00:00:12.760 | I'm Cal Newport, and this is Deep Questions,

00:00:22.680 | the show about living and working deeply in an increasingly distracted world.

00:00:29.120 | I'm here in my Deep Work HQ.

00:00:31.960 | I'm joined by my producer, Jesse. Hi, Jesse.

00:00:35.800 | We have a musical accompaniment to our recording today.

00:00:38.280 | The construction crew below has some, a good beat going. I like it. Yeah. Yeah.

00:00:42.960 | You probably don't hear it at home, but let's just so you know,

00:00:45.960 | Jesse and I are bobbing our head around to the background music. Jesse,

00:00:50.680 | you may have noticed I'm increasingly taking over the workspace in our

00:00:55.240 | production office with a increasingly ridiculous amount of home electronics and

00:00:59.360 | digital electronics tools.

00:01:01.240 | You see there's now a video game control stick and like an arcade style control

00:01:06.280 | stick and buttons hooked up to an Arduino. Yeah.

00:01:09.480 | You're doing the 3d printing, right? And 3d printing. Yeah. So we, I have a,

00:01:12.800 | our production office is also a maker lab that I use with my kids.

00:01:16.800 | I bring it up however,

00:01:18.200 | because in my interest to indulge this particular family hobby we have,

00:01:23.040 | I want to put the bat signal out to our audience here.

00:01:25.200 | I'm looking for something very specific and I'm hoping there's someone in our

00:01:30.200 | audience who can help here for whatever reason.

00:01:33.800 | That's kind of complicated,

00:01:35.400 | but I am increasingly interested in purchasing a video game cabinet that has

00:01:40.400 | vintage circuitry and the circuitry is pre microprocessor.

00:01:46.120 | So I'm talking video game circuitry from that period where video game cabinets

00:01:51.120 | had timing ICs and you know,

00:01:53.360 | hard coding bitmaps and diodes on the circuit board.

00:01:56.080 | And there was no actual processing unit.

00:01:58.360 | You had to make all that logic work.

00:02:00.160 | I think it's a really interesting period in the history of digital electronics.

00:02:04.400 | This is a field I study and I write about it for whatever reason.

00:02:07.000 | I want one of those, but I know nothing about that world.

00:02:09.200 | How do you find those? What's a good one? How much did they cost?

00:02:13.120 | So if you happen to have some expertise about vintage video game cabinets and

00:02:18.640 | vintage video game cabinet circuitry, send a note to Jesse.

00:02:22.360 | He's more likely to see it than me.

00:02:23.760 | Jesse@calnewport.com and he'll pass it along to me because I am basically a

00:02:28.760 | giant kid.

00:02:29.600 | That's so good. But speaking of giant kids,

00:02:33.600 | the topic I want to talk about today was actually inspired by a conversation

00:02:38.600 | about a comic strip. So when I grew up,

00:02:44.280 | I was a big fan of Calvin and Hobbes and I was a big fan of the comic strip.

00:02:48.520 | The Calvin and Hobbes comic strip. Are you a Calvin and Hobbes guy, Jesse?

00:02:51.480 | Not so much.

00:02:52.640 | This was my thing. I was obsessed. Well, anyways, my,

00:02:55.160 | my oldest was obsessed and my middle child's reading a lot of it. And my,

00:02:59.440 | my sister just sent a note about his, my nephew is really getting into it.

00:03:03.200 | So we were talking about Calvin and Hobbes on the family text thread and it sent

00:03:07.960 | me back down a rabbit hole.

00:03:09.960 | I have explored fruitfully before about the creator of Calvin and Hobbes,

00:03:15.840 | Bill Watterson. And what's interesting to me,

00:03:19.120 | and I'm going to pull up an article, let me just load on the browser here.

00:03:22.040 | So if you're watching this at youtube.com/calnewportmedia,

00:03:26.600 | you'll see this on the screen, but I'll narrate for those who are just listening.

00:03:30.440 | What a lot of people don't know who are casual Calvin and Hobbes fans is what

00:03:35.480 | Bill Watterson did, or in particular what he did not do,

00:03:39.600 | which was cash in on the full lucrative monetary potential of Calvin and Hobbes.

00:03:44.800 | He did not do anything to the financial fund. He did not do anything.

00:03:48.480 | He did not do anything to the monetary potential of his strip.

00:03:52.720 | So what I have loaded on here is an article.

00:03:54.760 | Here is the headline of this article. Why Calvin and Hobbes creator,

00:04:00.200 | Bill Watterson turned down $100 million.

00:04:04.160 | And that was the estimated amount of money he would have made if he had

00:04:10.480 | done Calvin and Hobbes merchandise, which is crazy when you consider,

00:04:13.600 | if you're a merchandising person,

00:04:15.160 | that one of the two main characters is a stuffed animal. I mean,

00:04:18.520 | this is a comic strip that is built for merchandising.

00:04:22.160 | He probably could have made $50 million alone on Hobbes dolls. But he said,

00:04:25.800 | you know what? I want the comic strip world to live in the head of my readers.

00:04:30.360 | I want to leave it all on the page.

00:04:31.720 | I don't want Calvin talking in a cartoon. I don't want a voice.

00:04:37.040 | I don't want a strip on Saturday morning TV,

00:04:40.800 | resolving the question about whether or not Hobbes is real or just in Calvin's

00:04:45.280 | imagination. I don't want to know what his dad sounds like.

00:04:47.840 | I don't want to see Calvin and Hobbes sheets and underwear.

00:04:52.040 | I just want it to live in the comic strip. So he turned down a hundred million.

00:04:55.160 | Number two,

00:04:57.640 | second thing that makes Bill Watterson a fascinating character after doing the

00:05:01.600 | strip for a decade, 1985 to 1995,

00:05:05.080 | he's at the peak of his popularity peak of his abilities. He said, okay,

00:05:09.040 | I've said what I need to say, walked away, disappeared.

00:05:13.920 | And he won't, he won't do interviews. He won't. If you try to track him down,

00:05:18.600 | he'll push you away. Uh, if you're like,

00:05:20.840 | I just need like the clarify this for like a retrospective we're doing about

00:05:24.160 | your work, he will ignore you. He just walked away and said, I'm done.

00:05:27.520 | I did what I need to do. It was a great strip. I'm proud of it.

00:05:29.600 | And now I'm going to go paint landscapes, which is what I think.

00:05:33.480 | This is the best I can find out as he's doing landscaping paint,

00:05:36.240 | basically like hobbies. No one really knows.

00:05:37.640 | He just kind of disappeared back to Ohio and disappeared.

00:05:39.680 | There's even a whole documentary about this searching for,

00:05:42.320 | I think it's called searching for Bill or searching for Bill Watterson.

00:05:44.960 | He's like, I did enough. I'm gone.

00:05:47.840 | So what's interesting to me about this is that Watterson on the one hand was

00:05:54.000 | clearly an ambitious person, right? I mean, he, he honed his ability.

00:05:59.120 | He wanted to have a strip.

00:06:00.320 | You can read about this in the 10th anniversary edition of Calvin and Hobbes

00:06:03.320 | great book is a lot of annotation and narration from Watterson.

00:06:06.800 | He worked really hard.

00:06:08.080 | He wanted to be in newspapers and do something innovative.

00:06:10.480 | He tried a couple of strips that failed. This one really took off.

00:06:13.360 | And then he really pushed himself to make the strip better.

00:06:16.320 | One of the things he did, for example, once he had some clout,

00:06:19.840 | once his strip was very popular, is he demanded the ability to have a guarantee

00:06:24.680 | of a full half page for his Sunday comic.

00:06:27.240 | And this is important. And this is an insider baseball detail.

00:06:31.360 | But if you read most Sunday comics, you'll notice that the first few boxes,

00:06:36.240 | the top line of the two or three strips that makes up the Sunday comic

00:06:39.760 | is usually a throwaway joke.

00:06:42.360 | And that gives the newspapers the option of cutting off that top line altogether.

00:06:46.720 | So some newspapers will just put in the bottom two of your three rows

00:06:49.680 | for your Sunday comic, and some will put all three.

00:06:51.880 | Watterson said you put the whole I went the whole space or not,

00:06:55.720 | which allowed him to get rid of the throwaway joke and start making Sunday

00:06:58.960 | comics that did not conform to rows or boxes.

00:07:02.120 | But you could have images that took up most of the the space,

00:07:05.640 | a lot of you in the newspaper.

00:07:06.920 | So he cared about craft and the art of what he was doing.

00:07:10.120 | And he pushed it. So he's a very ambitious guy.

00:07:13.480 | But at the same time, he didn't just keep saying, what else?

00:07:17.440 | What's more? How do I get higher up on the scoreboard?

00:07:20.480 | He turned down the hundred million.

00:07:22.240 | He turned down doing this for 30 or 40 years.

00:07:25.400 | He turned down.

00:07:26.000 | Let me get involved in TV projects and movie projects.

00:07:28.920 | He stayed focused on one thing, did it well, was ambitious.

00:07:31.840 | And kept the overload and the stress and the continuing ratcheted up at bay.

00:07:36.800 | Now, you can compare this if you want to point a contract to Charles

00:07:40.080 | Schultz, creator of the Peanuts comic strip.

00:07:42.640 | Last year, I went and toured the Charles Schultz Museum,

00:07:47.040 | which is in Marin County, so sort of north of San Francisco.

00:07:51.520 | You come away from that museum and you say this is a busy guy, right?

00:07:56.400 | I mean, he not only did he do that strip until at the very end, he couldn't.

00:08:00.520 | The his hand was shaking too much with age and age related decline

00:08:03.640 | that he couldn't draw anymore.

00:08:04.520 | But he did it to literally the last point that he could.

00:08:06.840 | He had so many different business endeavors licensing that he had Emmys

00:08:11.360 | from doing the television specials.

00:08:15.160 | He was involved in movies and charities, and it was an incredibly

00:08:18.560 | complicated life that he had, very busy life, so very different

00:08:21.120 | than what Watterson did.

00:08:21.800 | So I thought that was interesting.

00:08:24.160 | And I'm going to use that to inspire the deep question that we are going to

00:08:27.880 | get into in today's episode, which is how can we be ambitious?

00:08:33.560 | Without burning out.

00:08:36.720 | So like we normally do, we'll start by doing a deep dive on that question.

00:08:42.720 | After we do a deep dive on that question, I have five questions from listeners

00:08:47.240 | that are all on the same general theme of of the tension

00:08:50.960 | between ambition and burnout.

00:08:52.520 | So we're going to be really focused on this issue throughout.

00:08:54.920 | And then at the end of the show, we'll have a final segment where we'll just

00:08:57.840 | look at something interesting on related.

00:08:59.720 | Let me just give you a little bit of teaser, a teaser for what's coming up.

00:09:02.880 | For our very first question that we're going to tackle in the

00:09:06.120 | question portion of the show, we're going to have a special guest.

00:09:09.240 | Call in and help me answer the question.

00:09:13.320 | I'll even tell you who it is so that you can be excited

00:09:16.440 | about it and keep listening.

00:09:18.320 | The very first question is about building out a podcast to be more successful.

00:09:23.600 | The ambition to do that.

00:09:24.600 | And we have calling in later in the show, friend of our show, Jordan Harbinger,

00:09:28.800 | the host of the incredibly popular Jordan Harbinger podcast.

00:09:32.840 | Former guest interviewed him, I don't know, a year or two ago.

00:09:36.360 | Anyways, he's going to call in a little bit later.

00:09:38.000 | He knows that industry really well.

00:09:39.320 | So we're going to learn a lot from him.

00:09:41.360 | So that's our plan.

00:09:42.400 | Sound good, Jesse?

00:09:43.280 | Sounds great. Ambition and burnout.

00:09:44.480 | All right. So let's get let's go deep on this question.

00:09:47.560 | What I want to do when it comes to dealing with these issues is

00:09:52.560 | highlight the two extremes, the two extreme options that people tend to

00:09:57.920 | think are their only options when it comes to ambition.

00:10:00.480 | So on one extreme, we have what I'm going to call grand ambition.

00:10:04.560 | Now, when you have a grand ambition, what this means is by the time you reach a

00:10:09.320 | certain level of accomplishment, you're already looking forward to the next

00:10:13.720 | level with hungry impatience.

00:10:16.520 | When you harbor a grand ambition in a given direction, just the existence

00:10:21.240 | of someone who is at a higher level or doing it better than you can be a source

00:10:25.160 | of unease, can be a source of disappointment.

00:10:27.800 | You can find yourself even falling into schadenfreude when someone

00:10:31.360 | was doing better than you fall.

00:10:32.720 | So grand ambition is never.

00:10:34.240 | Happy, it wants more than where you are right now.

00:10:39.200 | So, for example, if you are a writer with grand ambition, you want to be the best

00:10:44.000 | selling writer in your space in the world.

00:10:46.640 | There being three people selling better than you is itself going to be a problem.

00:10:50.520 | Um, maybe in money, it's not just, I want to be wealthy.

00:10:54.360 | It's I want to be richer than anyone I know.

00:10:56.200 | And then when I get there, if I hear someone who has more money, I kind

00:11:00.760 | of want to have that much money.

00:11:01.840 | That's what grand ambition looks like.

00:11:03.640 | It's not entirely negative.

00:11:05.560 | There are pros and cons.

00:11:07.360 | There's a reason why grand ambition is common.

00:11:10.800 | Uh, one of the pros is that can push people to the extremes of their potential, right?

00:11:14.360 | So if you have a Tom Brady, like character in the world of sports, who has the grand

00:11:17.960 | ambition to be better than any quarterback ever, that clearly pushed him.

00:11:22.400 | To keep improving, keep innovating, extending this career as long as he could.

00:11:26.880 | Racking up Superbowl's racking up records.

00:11:29.160 | So grand ambition does take incredibly talented people and help them actually

00:11:34.280 | extract the full potential of their talent.

00:11:37.680 | Ambitious goals can be satisfying to set.

00:11:41.280 | This is a second pro of grand ambition.

00:11:43.400 | There's some sort of endorphin release that happens when you say, you know what?

00:11:47.600 | I'm going for this, especially once you start to make some traction, it's not all

00:11:53.320 | negative that actually can feel really good.

00:11:55.280 | You know, I'm going to conquer the publishing world.

00:11:57.640 | And when you get that first book and then that first bestseller, and then

00:12:01.280 | you see that advanced grow, it feels good.

00:12:03.840 | Humans like having ambition.

00:12:05.880 | So again, this is not all negative.

00:12:08.000 | The cons of course, are somewhat obvious.

00:12:10.720 | Um, one overload.

00:12:12.120 | This is the Charles Schultz versus Bill Watterson example.

00:12:16.360 | When you keep pushing yourself to do more, take on more opportunities, be more

00:12:20.040 | successful, you're taking on more work.

00:12:21.680 | The number of things you have going on simultaneously increases.

00:12:25.920 | As we've talked about multiple times on the show, as you increase overload, you

00:12:30.920 | increase stress because there is an overhead from everything that's on your

00:12:34.480 | plate, meetings and phone calls and cognitive space.

00:12:37.760 | And you only have a limited amount of resources to dedicate to that overhead.

00:12:42.000 | So when you have enough things on your plate, their aggregate overhead.

00:12:45.720 | Overwhelms what you actually have resources for, and you get stressed

00:12:50.000 | and it's a source of anxiety.

00:12:51.680 | I assume Charles Schultz had a somewhat stressful life on a regular basis,

00:12:56.800 | definitely much more so than Bill Watterson.

00:12:59.120 | Uh, the other con of grand ambition is disappointment.

00:13:04.560 | You know, Tom Brady, if we're going to return to that sports example,

00:13:08.280 | he did really push it.

00:13:10.040 | He did become great.

00:13:11.160 | He did break these records.

00:13:12.600 | He did win all these super bowls.

00:13:13.920 | He's probably really disappointed with last last season.

00:13:16.960 | And there is no end to, okay, but what about this?

00:13:21.960 | What about that?

00:13:22.720 | Uh, I suspect, for example, let's say you're JK Rowling and you write the

00:13:26.160 | bestselling book series of all times, but she also then went on to write the

00:13:29.920 | screenplays for the more recent Harry Potter movies, which are like, okay.

00:13:34.320 | I bet that disappoints her.

00:13:36.440 | I bet she's, she's thinking, man, there's better screenwriters than me.

00:13:41.320 | I'm not winning Academy awards.

00:13:42.760 | These movies are okay.

00:13:43.800 | You know?

00:13:44.160 | So, so the grand ambition does also spawn disappointment and it tends to

00:13:47.760 | obscure the possibility of gratitude.

00:13:49.840 | It's hard to have gratitude and just be thankful for what you have and

00:13:54.840 | accomplished when what you're really focused on is, well, this next level.

00:13:59.560 | That's where I need to get.

00:14:00.640 | I'm not there.

00:14:01.360 | Why is he there?

00:14:02.400 | I should be there.

00:14:03.800 | Makes it very difficult for you to actually enjoy at any one

00:14:07.320 | moment, what you already have.

00:14:09.120 | So grand ambition has pros.

00:14:10.520 | Grand ambition has cons.

00:14:12.360 | Those cons have led to an alternative, which is the other extreme.

00:14:17.440 | No ambition.

00:14:19.200 | And this is something we hear about, I think more often.

00:14:24.800 | And typically the no ambition pitch comes at it from the angle of, look, your

00:14:30.440 | ambition to want to go do things, to take on challenges, to work harder at things.

00:14:35.400 | It's all constructed and it's probably underneath it all exploitative.

00:14:41.280 | Right?

00:14:41.600 | Now there's different variations of this argument.

00:14:44.200 | So if the person making the argument, let's say has a college

00:14:47.040 | education from a good college, they might come at this from like an

00:14:49.600 | early 20th century Marxist standpoint.

00:14:51.880 | Like, Hey, this is all part of the Marxist superstructure to get, make

00:14:54.920 | you into a, a, a source that the owners of capitals can exploit.

00:14:58.960 | You know, that's why you feel so ambitious because it makes

00:15:01.440 | money for these companies.

00:15:02.360 | If you went to graduate school, you might come at this from more

00:15:05.760 | of a postmodern perspective, more of like a postmodern critical perspective

00:15:09.720 | and say, well, actually the whole construct of ambition is itself just

00:15:13.880 | about power hierarchies and a play towards supremacy.

00:15:16.280 | So depending on your flavor of sort of tedious theory, it'll

00:15:21.920 | sound a little bit different, but this no ambition theory, uh, in its

00:15:25.960 | end comes back to the same commonality.

00:15:28.400 | Like ambition is something that we should be distrustful of.

00:15:33.200 | It's probably someone taking advantage of you.

00:15:35.280 | So quiet, quit, enjoy the sunshine, wait for UBI and all will be well.

00:15:40.880 | Well, just like with grand ambition, there are pros here, right?

00:15:45.040 | There's no clear villains and no clear heroes in this per,

00:15:49.080 | uh, this particular dichotomy.

00:15:50.920 | So with no ambition, uh, presence and gratitude, which no ambition

00:15:56.280 | supports is actually really nice.

00:15:59.080 | Like to have moments of like, I'm just really happy about this nice town where

00:16:03.760 | I live or like this meal that I'm eating.

00:16:06.880 | And I'm just sort of reading a book, uh, just outside by a river.

00:16:10.760 | And I just enjoy that.

00:16:12.600 | No ambition makes that type of presence and gratitude easier because you don't

00:16:15.960 | have that itchy, hungry impatience in your mind about who's doing better.

00:16:19.160 | What else could I be doing?

00:16:20.120 | What's my next grand plan?

00:16:21.960 | This was a key message, for example, from Jenny Odell's book, how to do nothing.

00:16:25.440 | We need to spend more time not orienting our activities

00:16:31.280 | towards some sort of goal.

00:16:33.280 | And that's actually a good message.

00:16:35.600 | Also look, most people are not Tom Brady.

00:16:41.080 | Most people are not JK Rowling.

00:16:42.800 | So there's something to this idea of, uh, we don't all want by default to get

00:16:47.600 | really charged up with ambition because you could say I'm going to be the next

00:16:51.720 | Brady or Rowling, almost certainly you won't come anywhere near, so maybe

00:16:57.120 | why waste that energy, right?

00:16:58.400 | So there's some rationale for the no ambitious theory.

00:17:01.680 | The cons is that we are miserable without goals.

00:17:05.880 | Like if there's not something that we're going for, something that's important

00:17:09.720 | to us that we can see ourselves making progress towards, it is very hard

00:17:12.840 | to live a fully relaxing life.

00:17:15.560 | It's why, you know, Jenny Odell can write very sagely about the importance

00:17:21.640 | of taking time to do nothing.

00:17:23.360 | But at the same time, Jenny Odell also spent a lot of time writing that book

00:17:26.760 | and spending a lot of time promoting that book and is writing a new book now that

00:17:30.240 | extends those theories somewhere else.

00:17:31.840 | There is a fundamental ambition of, I want to do these things.

00:17:37.640 | And if I'm not doing something, if I'm just sitting around waiting for my UBI

00:17:41.200 | check and enjoying the sunshine, I'm not going to be happy.

00:17:44.640 | So that's the key con of no ambition is that tends to make people miserable.

00:17:48.120 | And we will see in the question portion of the show today, we have at least one

00:17:50.840 | question that captures someone struggling with that tension of, I don't want to be

00:17:56.240 | overwhelmed, but I'm not doing enough and I'm bored and this is kind of making me.

00:17:59.320 | Miserable.

00:18:00.080 | So we've got grand ambition.

00:18:01.200 | We got no ambition.

00:18:01.960 | What I want to offer is a middle ground between the two.

00:18:05.160 | So we can pull from both pros and try to avoid both cons.

00:18:09.400 | I'm going to call this middle ground, pragmatic ambition.

00:18:13.880 | This is something I realized I've been working on in my own life without

00:18:20.120 | there actually being terminology about it.

00:18:22.080 | So I'm trying to actually lay some terminology and frameworks around

00:18:25.080 | this notion, but it's not a new notion.

00:18:27.120 | My definition of pragmatic ambition has two elements to it.

00:18:32.240 | The first it's something that a pragmatic ambition is something that within a year

00:18:37.600 | or less, you'll have either accomplished it or have a pretty clear signal.

00:18:42.840 | This is not going to work and can move on from it.

00:18:44.400 | So that the timeline, the timeframes we're talking about for pursuing

00:18:48.840 | pragmatic ambitions are relatively speaking short and the second element of

00:18:54.920 | my definition of pragmatic ambition, if accomplished, it should provide a clear

00:19:00.480 | and compelling ongoing benefit.

00:19:03.800 | So something that's really satisfying or enjoyable or fun that will remain a

00:19:09.720 | source of satisfaction or enjoyment or fun in the perpetuity, this is something

00:19:14.800 | I've accomplished and now I can really enjoy this as a recurring source of

00:19:20.400 | positive affect, so I want to give you some specific examples here from my

00:19:26.880 | own life of pragmatic ambitions.

00:19:29.160 | I'm going to load up a webpage over here.

00:19:30.480 | All right.

00:19:31.080 | So the first example was early in my career as a blogger.

00:19:37.360 | So I started the study hacks blog at calnewport.com before now it's

00:19:40.480 | primarily an email newsletter, but used to be back then primarily a blog.

00:19:44.640 | And I remember relatively early on in the lifetime of that blog, I set a

00:19:50.720 | pragmatic ambition for that part of my life, which was I never wanted

00:19:55.240 | to have to pay for a book again.

00:19:59.320 | Now, what I mean by this, I'm going to show you if you're, if you're

00:20:01.280 | watching on YouTube right now, I've loaded up an old version of my blog

00:20:05.200 | using the internet time machine, the way back machine.

00:20:08.600 | So this is March 2nd, 2015, just a snapshot of my blog.

00:20:11.760 | Oh, it's a screen not working.

00:20:13.720 | Yeah.

00:20:14.160 | Okay.

00:20:14.880 | Um, all right.

00:20:16.760 | We'll never, the screen is not working.

00:20:18.480 | Let me just tell you what's on here.

00:20:19.840 | If you go back, if you go back and look at my blog from years back, what you

00:20:24.000 | would notice is on the side, I had a little column that said some things I

00:20:27.760 | like, and there would be a link typically to, uh, the notebook I used to use

00:20:33.240 | before I had my own time block planner.

00:20:34.920 | I would use black and red notebooks.

00:20:36.880 | I had a book on deliberate practice.

00:20:39.960 | So Anders Ericsson's sort of epic book, the road to excellence.

00:20:45.160 | And then I had Jaron Lanier's, I am not, you are not a gadget, which

00:20:49.600 | was a very influential book for me.

00:20:50.760 | So I would have those three things on the side of my blog.

00:20:53.600 | And it says some things I like, those were Amazon affiliate links.

00:20:57.680 | So if you clicked on those and bought either that object or anything else

00:21:02.160 | following that link, I'd get a little cut of it.

00:21:04.960 | And what I learned early on is you could have Amazon.

00:21:09.240 | Instead of giving you money, convert everything you earned into Amazon credits.

00:21:15.240 | And they would just email you once a month, just a little code.

00:21:17.880 | Hey, this code is, you know, $250 worth of Amazon credits.

00:21:22.960 | And so what my goal was early on with my blog was I want to have enough

00:21:26.960 | readership that I get enough Amazon credits from affiliate links that the.

00:21:32.240 | Amount of these credits in my Amazon account is always above zero.

00:21:36.440 | And so I can just buy books without thinking about it, without

00:21:38.760 | ever really using a credit card.

00:21:40.000 | If I just see a book I want to get, go to Amazon and buy it.

00:21:43.000 | And there's always just enough credits in my account that I

00:21:46.160 | don't have to worry about it.

00:21:47.240 | And I did reach that goal.

00:21:49.360 | I don't remember exactly when it was, but it was tractable.

00:21:53.680 | It wasn't something that was going to take me five or six years.

00:21:56.120 | Once accomplished though, it was like this great source of ongoing

00:21:59.920 | satisfaction, something I could enjoy.

00:22:02.520 | Like I, I can just buy books, which, you know, I'm a grad as a grad student.

00:22:07.160 | This was a big deal.

00:22:07.920 | I can buy books whenever and not have to worry about it.

00:22:10.520 | It's a pragmatic ambition, but it gave me a lot of pleasure.

00:22:15.280 | Okay.

00:22:15.480 | Here's another one.

00:22:17.360 | When I first started out writing books, so, you know, I wrote my first book

00:22:20.760 | as an undergraduate at Dartmouth.

00:22:22.480 | It came out, uh, right after I arrived at MIT to be a grad student, my

00:22:28.960 | pragmatic ambition of when I got into book writing, my first pragmatic

00:22:33.320 | ambition is I just want to be able to go to a bookstore because I love

00:22:37.120 | bookstores so much, I love books so much, grew up on them and to see

00:22:41.040 | my, at least one of my books there, just like in this bookstore,

00:22:44.360 | I could find one of my books.

00:22:46.880 | And so I published my first book and I moved to MIT.

00:22:49.600 | We're living near Harvard square.

00:22:50.880 | Uh, the Harvard co-op in Harvard square was actually a really big

00:22:55.680 | supporter of my early student books.

00:22:57.280 | They would, they would have them out on the table, uh, for years.

00:23:00.520 | They'd bring them out for graduation.

00:23:02.000 | And I got a lot of ongoing pleasure those first few years at MIT to go up over to

00:23:08.280 | the Harvard co-op and just sort of see my book on a table, even on occasion, I would

00:23:13.080 | see someone walk by and pick it up and look at it.

00:23:14.920 | That was great.

00:23:17.280 | And early in my writing career, that was a pragmatic ambition, not

00:23:20.680 | I'm going to beat JK Rowling.

00:23:23.480 | It was like, I wonder if I can just have books in a bookstore or with my blog.

00:23:27.360 | It was not, uh, this is going to be a money factory and I'm

00:23:32.320 | going to make a living off of it.

00:23:33.440 | It was, wouldn't it be cool if I could buy books with abandon and never

00:23:37.920 | have to think about what's this going to do to my credit card bill?

00:23:40.240 | Pragmatic ambitions.

00:23:41.920 | Uh, this podcast, I'll give you my third example for my life.

00:23:45.600 | Initial goal for this podcast was I would like it to be able to pay for a

00:23:52.440 | cool office space that I can hang out in, like make enough money that it can cover

00:23:58.200 | the lease payment of an office space near my house, the timeline, because you have

00:24:03.480 | to go back and look at the timeline.

00:24:04.440 | I started this podcast early in the pandemic.

00:24:06.600 | I recorded, I don't know, like four episodes of this thing before my

00:24:10.920 | wife said, you're out of the house.

00:24:12.600 | You can't record this in here.

00:24:14.480 | We have too many kids.

00:24:15.520 | Like we can't be quiet and we're not going to be quiet.

00:24:18.000 | And you have to go find another place to do this.

00:24:20.200 | And I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do about this,

00:24:22.240 | but right around this time.

00:24:23.880 | So this was early in the pandemic.

00:24:25.280 | This is when Ryan holiday started texting me pictures of this building.

00:24:29.640 | He had bought in boss drop, Texas, where he lives.

00:24:33.080 | And he was going there to podcast and the right and the read, and

00:24:36.680 | he had this building to go to.

00:24:38.080 | And especially early in the pandemic, when I was kind of trapped at

00:24:40.240 | home, I'm like, man, that looks great.

00:24:42.520 | So he was kind of nudging me like, oh, you have to have your own space.

00:24:44.520 | My wife kicked me out of the house.

00:24:45.600 | It turns out Ryan, Ryan's wife had kicked him out of the house too.

00:24:49.160 | She's like, we're not going to be quiet.

00:24:50.280 | You got to go, go somewhere else.

00:24:51.600 | Um, and so I was like, I'll lease the space.

00:24:54.040 | So I leased the office space to Deep Work HQ without really

00:24:57.520 | a way to sustainably pay for it.

00:24:59.720 | I said, I'm going to give myself a year.

00:25:01.360 | I can cover these lease payments for a year.

00:25:03.760 | Just, you know, I'll put aside some money for it, but this is not sustainable.

00:25:06.760 | So I have to make my podcast successful enough that it could pay for the office

00:25:10.280 | lease and it got there before the year was out.

00:25:13.280 | And I get enjoyment out of this every day.

00:25:15.040 | I'm here all the time.

00:25:15.960 | I have all my crazy electronic equipment there.

00:25:17.880 | Um, Jesse's around as Jesse knows, like I have various friends who will sometimes

00:25:23.040 | come and spend the day doing remote work from the HQ.

00:25:25.560 | And it's just sort of cool to have people around and I can just get

00:25:28.280 | a lot of gratitude out of that.

00:25:30.120 | Again, that's a pragmatic ambition.

00:25:31.920 | The alternative approach would say, until I take down Rogan as the number

00:25:37.240 | one podcast, I'm not going to be happy.

00:25:39.040 | That is a grand ambition.

00:25:40.800 | Instead, I came at it pragmatically.

00:25:42.280 | Wouldn't it be cool if I could have a space near my house where I could

00:25:46.400 | just hang out and podcast and it's every day I get enjoyment out of it.

00:25:49.320 | All right.

00:25:50.680 | So those are some examples from my life.

00:25:51.920 | Uh, other examples, Bill Watterson, right?

00:25:54.320 | That's pragmatic ambition.

00:25:55.880 | He wanted a really successful comic strip that would earn him enough money

00:25:59.120 | that he wouldn't really have to worry about money and work.

00:26:02.320 | And he did that had an impact on the field, made some good money, not a

00:26:06.400 | hundred million dollars, but enough that he can live comfortably in

00:26:09.000 | Ohio and paint his landscapes.

00:26:10.920 | And he did that and he enjoyed it.

00:26:12.360 | And now he enjoys what he does now.

00:26:13.920 | I think Tim Ferriss is another interesting example of this.

00:26:17.160 | Where he, he focused in his pragmatic ambition to, I want to podcast.

00:26:23.520 | I want to be influential.

00:26:24.960 | I want it to be successful enough that I don't have to worry about money and

00:26:28.440 | therefore have to go off and write big books, which, you know, every time he

00:26:32.320 | writes one of these big books, it practically kills them or have to do

00:26:35.000 | events or speak, or he just wanted simplicity as far as I can tell, just

00:26:38.880 | based on his public comments and the podcast was really simple.

00:26:42.960 | I just want to do this and I meet interesting people and it's fascinating

00:26:47.840 | and it makes enough money that I don't really care about money.

00:26:50.080 | He has a very small team, you know, it's not, he doesn't have a warehouse

00:26:53.160 | full of people and he doesn't even, I guess he doesn't even really care.

00:26:57.360 | Jesse that much about YouTube.

00:26:58.480 | I guess now he's doing a little bit more, but it's not a.

00:27:00.880 | Profit maximization business.

00:27:04.160 | He's just like, I like podcasting.

00:27:06.200 | I want to meet interesting people and have an impact on the public sector, but that's

00:27:09.240 | it, I'm happy with that.

00:27:10.400 | I don't have to figure out how can I get on the list of the top earning, you know,

00:27:15.440 | the Forbes list of top earning authors each year or something like that.

00:27:18.240 | That's a pragmatic ambition, huge source of meaning.

00:27:22.000 | Scratches that itch of wanting to do things, but it's not this

00:27:26.000 | relentless what's next, what's next.

00:27:27.600 | All right.

00:27:28.880 | So what's the key to making pragmatic ambition succeed?

00:27:32.640 | I have two number one.

00:27:35.160 | When you accomplish a pragmatic ambition, you have to put in.

00:27:38.440 | Effort to enjoy the fruits.

00:27:41.320 | I need to just go to my office and I'll do this.

00:27:46.760 | I'm going to go to my office, like write a blog post and, or something and just like

00:27:50.960 | enjoy it or bring like a breakfast and just read a book and just go out of my way to

00:27:55.960 | make sure that I keep coming back to making myself remind myself why I'm gracious and

00:28:01.480 | have gratitude for this.

00:28:02.480 | Right.

00:28:03.360 | Uh, the blog thing was a similar thing.

00:28:05.400 | Just like, don't forget, put an effort.

00:28:06.880 | I'm going to go buy these books.

00:28:07.840 | I don't have to buy this cool.

00:28:09.000 | Like I don't have to pay for books.

00:28:10.040 | So it actually takes an ongoing effort to continue to be.

00:28:13.840 | Pleased with what it is that you accomplish and the good things to put into your life.

00:28:18.400 | So it's like a gratitude practice.

00:28:21.000 | It's very important to extract the full impact of pragmatic ambition.

00:28:25.760 | The other thing is you do not have to, it's the other key.

00:28:29.840 | You do not have to have pragmatic ambition, be a substitute for grand ambition.

00:28:34.840 | What it does is give you a more sustainable route there, which is laddering.

00:28:39.240 | This is the second key to pragmatic ambition.

00:28:42.880 | So once you've accomplished a pragmatic ambition, you can then set your sights on

00:28:48.600 | in that same particular field of endeavor, the next level up and make it a, a new

00:28:55.400 | pragmatic ambition, something that you could accomplish within a year or so, or

00:28:58.720 | know that it's not going to work within a year or so, but don't do it right away.

00:29:03.640 | You accomplish pragmatic ambition.

00:29:06.160 | One, give yourself at least three months of just enjoying the fruits of that.

00:29:09.360 | And then if you set the next level up in that same endeavor, okay, here's my next

00:29:13.680 | pragmatic ambition, continue to enjoy the fruits of what you just accomplished while

00:29:17.680 | you're working on the next one.

00:29:18.720 | And so if you don't get to the next level, if that particular plan doesn't work out,

00:29:22.520 | you'll know that in about a year or so you never gave up enjoying the fruits of the

00:29:26.760 | initial one, and then you can decide if you want to try something else or not.

00:29:29.760 | And in this way, you can ladder up towards more and more impressive

00:29:32.560 | accomplishments while maximizing gratitude and satisfaction along the way while

00:29:37.120 | enjoying what you have now, while you're continually working on what's coming next,

00:29:41.000 | but in a way that's much more sustainable.

00:29:43.120 | This is what's happened with me with podcasting.

00:29:45.840 | For example, the original pragmatic ambition, as mentioned, was having a cool

00:29:50.520 | office suite near my house that I could, I could come to and friends could come

00:29:54.960 | here and I bring my kids here and we work on the maker lab and it's great.

00:29:57.400 | And I still enjoy that every day.

00:29:58.760 | I was here last night with all three of my kids.

00:30:01.360 | We rotate my, my four-year-old came, we do snap circuits.

00:30:05.680 | My eight-year-old came, we're doing CAD design and 3d printing to my 10 year old

00:30:10.600 | came and we were wiring up these joystick controllers to our Arduino, right?

00:30:15.160 | Still enjoy this every day.

00:30:16.800 | After a while though, I put in place a second pragmatic ambition.

00:30:22.800 | Okay, what's the next level up that I want to work towards while I enjoy

00:30:25.600 | the success of the first one?

00:30:26.640 | And the next level up I worked towards with the podcast was if the revenue of

00:30:31.240 | the podcast matched or surpassed my salary as a professor, I felt that that

00:30:38.480 | would give me confidence in my academic life to take more risks and to maybe

00:30:45.880 | shift what I'm focusing on or go after more risky or ambitious topics to, to be

00:30:51.800 | more emboldened to experiment and leave the narrow path in academia, if just

00:30:57.280 | psychologically speaking, I said, this other thing, this ongoing thing I have,

00:31:00.560 | the podcast generates as much money as my salary.

00:31:03.600 | Somehow I just thought that would give me confidence and it does.

00:31:08.480 | And it's something that once accomplished, I now actually keep, try to

00:31:11.840 | keep reminding myself of that.

00:31:12.960 | Like, this is great.

00:31:13.760 | I'm really, I have a lot of gratitude for this and I want to take advantage

00:31:17.440 | of this by taking risk in my academic work.

00:31:19.360 | I want to work on interesting topics.

00:31:21.080 | And it's again, now I have two sources of ongoing gratitude.

00:31:24.240 | And so pretty soon I will probably put in place pragmatic ambition number

00:31:29.040 | three for the podcast, if, and when I get there and I don't know what it's

00:31:32.920 | going to be and I'm no hurry.

00:31:35.200 | And when I do put that ambition in place, I'll try it for a year while still

00:31:38.400 | enjoying and reaping the fruits of the pragmatic ambitions I've already

00:31:42.160 | accomplished.

00:31:42.600 | So all these examples, I'm giving all these examples to try to lay out a sense

00:31:46.800 | of this new way of approaching ambition, relatively short-term goals, sustainable

00:31:52.880 | payoffs, incredible effort invested to, to be gracious about those payoffs and

00:31:58.120 | to pay attention to those payoffs, laddering towards the bigger things, one

00:32:01.640 | pragmatic ambition at a time with plenty of breathing room in between each of

00:32:06.720 | those beats.

00:32:07.280 | So ambitious is good.

00:32:09.160 | It's good to have things to move towards in your professional life or

00:32:12.000 | outside of your professional life.

00:32:14.080 | They can play in well to a deep life plan, pursuing these ambitions, moving

00:32:20.840 | up what you're capable of, but you got to be careful about how you do it.

00:32:23.400 | Pursuing hard, but proximate goals and reveling in the gratitude and

00:32:26.760 | appreciation of accomplishment.

00:32:28.040 | I think that is a sustainable strategy.

00:32:30.080 | That is the Bill Watterson strategy.

00:32:32.120 | He might not have that a hundred million dollars, but I'm pretty sure he's a

00:32:35.520 | pretty relaxed guy and still did a lot of good in the world.

00:32:38.880 | So that's my new theory, Jesse.

00:32:41.440 | I have a couple of questions.

00:32:43.520 | So risk in your academic work, like what do you mean?

00:32:46.320 | Like more, um, so arcane, like research topics, I'm shifting more interest and

00:32:52.000 | there'll be some more official things to talk about this sometime soon.

00:32:55.800 | There's various things being signed, et cetera.

00:32:57.640 | Um, but I'm getting much more involved, for example, in Georgetown's

00:33:01.240 | emerging focus on digital ethics.

00:33:03.200 | So it, that is more of an alignment of some of my public facing writing on

00:33:07.440 | tech and society with my academic work.

00:33:09.760 | So shifting a little bit, well, not a little bit, but shifting increasingly

00:33:13.640 | away from just core computer science theory and doing more academic work

00:33:18.880 | about the impact of tech so that, so that now I could be covering this, these

00:33:24.000 | topics at multiple scales of sophistication.

00:33:27.720 | So on one end, it can just be on the podcast.

00:33:30.720 | Let me just give you a piece of pragmatic advice in response to a

00:33:33.760 | question about what to do with, you know, tech in your life.

00:33:36.640 | Um, somewhere in between, it'll be like my New Yorker work and my books.

00:33:39.680 | Public facing, but I've really thought these things through.

00:33:43.120 | It's a little bit more sophisticated.

00:33:44.320 | And then at the full end might have actual like academic work, peer

00:33:47.320 | reviewed work, uh, that's working and thinking about and trying

00:33:50.040 | to lay intellectual foundations.

00:33:51.240 | I love this idea of having a conciliants across all these things I'm doing.

00:33:54.520 | That's a really risky thing to do.

00:33:56.240 | Why?

00:33:56.880 | Well, because you're leaving your, your, your bread and butter.

00:33:59.800 | Oh, okay.

00:34:00.400 | Yeah.

00:34:00.840 | And, and, and in academia, respect, promotion, a lot of it comes from what

00:34:05.720 | people in your very narrow field think about you, so it's not,

00:34:08.280 | it's not an easy thing to do.

00:34:09.320 | Yeah.

00:34:09.720 | But I feel for whatever reason, having the podcast be successful somehow gives me

00:34:16.240 | confidence to let me change things around.

00:34:19.920 | Yeah.

00:34:20.240 | So it's, it's psychological, right?

00:34:22.000 | I'm a tenured academic.

00:34:22.920 | It's not like if I pursue the wrong topic, I'm going to get

00:34:27.160 | fired and I need a fallback income.

00:34:28.880 | So it's way more psychological than that, but it's, for me, it was like an

00:34:32.120 | important, but attainable goal once accomplished, I can keep leaning on as a

00:34:38.440 | way of like a continued source of, of inspiration and courage.

00:34:41.400 | Yeah.

00:34:41.720 | And like confidence is such a huge thing.

00:34:43.280 | Yeah.

00:34:43.560 | You know?

00:34:43.960 | Um, and then lastly, what do you think Waterston's doing after Hobbes?

00:34:49.240 | Like, what do you think he did?

00:34:50.000 | I probably just didn't sit there, right?

00:34:52.000 | It's hard to find, uh, too many details.

00:34:54.160 | So I, you know, I mentioned landscape painting.

00:34:56.120 | That's actually one, as far as we can tell, because he did some, he had some art shows.

00:35:00.600 | So he got really into landscape painting.

00:35:02.600 | I know that that's one thing he did.

00:35:04.000 | He, at some point for a few weeks, drew like as a guest artist, a ongoing

00:35:12.280 | comic strip that exists, he like took over that comic strip and it was

00:35:15.720 | somehow it was a charity thing.

00:35:17.080 | Right.

00:35:17.840 | So somehow the money that raised was going to charity.

00:35:20.360 | Um, but otherwise no one knows, like it really is mysterious.

00:35:23.480 | Like you can't interview him.

00:35:24.400 | He will not respond to interviews, interview request.

00:35:27.560 | I was poking around.

00:35:29.720 | I don't really know what he's up to.

00:35:30.840 | Um, but you know, he's not stressed.

00:35:34.440 | A hundred million dollars is so much money to turn down.

00:35:36.280 | Yeah.

00:35:36.640 | No, it wasn't like they came to him with a check for a hundred million dollars, but

00:35:40.520 | it was, these licensing deals would be worth a hundred million dollars, probably

00:35:44.320 | in their lifetime, but you would make probably about a hundred million

00:35:46.320 | dollars in a 20 year period.

00:35:47.640 | Yeah.

00:35:48.120 | So, you know, not really that impressive.

00:35:51.200 | If you're going to spread out my a hundred million dollars over 20 years, I mean,

00:35:55.520 | come on, is it even worth it?

00:35:59.120 | Yes.

00:35:59.280 | He's an interesting guy.

00:36:00.000 | All right.

00:36:00.800 | So what we got now is coming up a collection of questions that all are related one way

00:36:06.520 | or the other to this topic of ambition and burnout.

00:36:09.000 | So we can actually see how the ideas I just talk about play out in real world

00:36:12.600 | examples, including our very first question.

00:36:15.960 | We'll have a special guest host helping me answer it.

00:36:18.480 | Jordan Harbinger.

00:36:19.400 | First, however, I want to mention one of the long time sponsors of this show

00:36:24.000 | that makes the podcast possible.

00:36:26.840 | And that is our friends at Grammarly.

00:36:29.920 | I want to talk in particular about their premium Grammarly premiums

00:36:34.280 | advanced tone suggestion feature.

00:36:37.800 | So let me be really clear about this.

00:36:39.600 | Writing clearly is a superpower in the modern knowledge work setting.

00:36:47.720 | So much of your work as a knowledge worker today is emails.

00:36:53.720 | It's reports, it's slacks, it's typed language, trying to communicate

00:36:58.840 | back and forth with other adults.

00:37:00.120 | If you can do this really well, you are just viewed implicitly or

00:37:04.800 | explicitly as more competent, more on the ball.

00:37:07.880 | You know what you're doing.

00:37:08.920 | Clear communication is like a superpower in today's knowledge workplace.

00:37:12.320 | You need Grammarly premium sitting right there on whatever devices you use.

00:37:17.120 | Helping you on whatever apps you use on those devices to write the, make sure

00:37:21.640 | that that writing is as clear as possible.

00:37:23.800 | It's like a performance enhancing drug for knowledge work writing.

00:37:27.840 | This is why I very much suggest this.

00:37:30.400 | Let me give you some examples of how well the tone suggestion works.

00:37:35.160 | So here's a real sentence that you might type in an email.

00:37:37.440 | We may want to consider providing an update.

00:37:40.640 | The suggester, the tone suggester might come back and say, um, why don't we say

00:37:46.600 | we should consider providing an update?

00:37:48.480 | That's more confident.

00:37:49.680 | That's going to come across better.

00:37:51.200 | Right?

00:37:51.600 | Here's another example.

00:37:52.400 | Maybe you said in an email, the marketing strategy isn't right.

00:37:56.000 | Yeah, it's a little bit negative and people are incredibly sensitive

00:37:59.920 | about these slight variations in tone.

00:38:02.120 | When you're communicating with written language, here's an actual suggestion

00:38:06.560 | from Grammarly for that sentence.

00:38:07.800 | The marketing strategy needs to be different.

00:38:10.240 | So you go from the marketing strategy isn't right to the marketing

00:38:13.840 | strategy needs to be different.

00:38:14.920 | They get the same point across the second one's not negative.

00:38:18.800 | It's not going to set off those alarm bells in the receiver of, are you mad at me?

00:38:23.080 | Are they insulting me?

00:38:23.800 | What's going on here?

00:38:24.640 | So language is so critical.

00:38:26.680 | You need all the help you can get.

00:38:28.200 | You should subscribe to Grammarly premium and it's going to help you fix your

00:38:32.520 | sentences, fix your tone, make you more confident, make it less negative,

00:38:35.600 | make your tone more consistent.

00:38:37.040 | Again, it's like a superpower for anyone in a knowledge work position.

00:38:42.520 | So we got, what are we talking about?

00:38:45.320 | Confident tone, positive tone.

00:38:47.440 | In addition to all the normal stuff that of course Grammarly is going to do, which

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00:39:14.680 | One of the sponsor I want to briefly mention is ExpressVPN.

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00:41:58.800 | All right.

00:41:59.840 | Let's do some questions.

00:42:01.360 | Again, all these questions should relate one way or the other to the general

00:42:05.040 | theme of today's show.

00:42:06.720 | Our first question was about podcasting, the ambition to build a podcast.

00:42:11.320 | And so I asked good friend, Jordan Harbinger, host of the Jordan Harbinger

00:42:15.480 | show, if he would call in and help me answer it.

00:42:18.200 | So Jesse, let's see if we can get Jordan on the line.

00:42:20.960 | Sounds good.

00:42:21.920 | Here we go.

00:42:22.440 | All right.

00:42:23.240 | So it looks like the next question we have coming up is about podcasting.

00:42:28.400 | So I figured to get to the truth here, we should bring onto the show.

00:42:34.760 | The person I know in this world who knows the most about podcasting, that's

00:42:39.640 | my friend and friend of the show, Jordan Harbinger, Jordan, thank you for

00:42:45.440 | agreeing to call in and help me here.

00:42:47.520 | A long time listeners will remember we did a whole episode together and we'll

00:42:52.560 | put a link to that in the show notes where we went deep onto the whole state

00:42:56.520 | of the podcasting industry at that point.

00:42:58.000 | But if you've not heard that episode, Jordan is the host of the Jordan

00:43:01.920 | Harbinger show, one of the best interview podcast out there.

00:43:07.400 | Jordan, you've been doing this for a long time.

00:43:10.880 | I have memories in my memory.

00:43:12.320 | I was being interviewed by you and this might be an exaggeration, you

00:43:16.720 | know, when I was in elementary school.

00:43:17.960 | Yeah, that might be an exaggeration, but it has been 16 years.

00:43:21.720 | I think I've been doing podcasts for about 16 years.

00:43:23.760 | So depending on when you graduated from elementary school, that is possible.

00:43:28.200 | You were, you were always a little ahead of your time.

00:43:29.920 | I am.

00:43:30.600 | Well, you know, I'm, I'm 11 years old right now, so I don't know if that's,

00:43:33.600 | if that's a surprise, but, uh, I aged fast.

00:43:36.200 | It's a hard, it's a hard industry.

00:43:37.600 | I'm a doogie.

00:43:38.000 | I was a Benjamin button style.

00:43:39.360 | I do have to say, and what I like about your show, of course, is

00:43:42.200 | the, the mix of guests.

00:43:43.400 | I think, I think you're top notch at this, that you will go from a, a list

00:43:48.280 | celebrity to, I mean, the last episode I heard it was, uh, an Egyptologist.

00:43:53.800 | Am I saying that right?

00:43:54.520 | I mean, it's like an expert on ancient Egypt.

00:43:56.880 | Uh, you'll even occasionally have, you know, bums like me on, so just

00:44:01.200 | to kind of, you know, the, the shake it up.

00:44:03.120 | Um, but I think you're the best in the biz at interviewing.

00:44:05.960 | Your show is sort of a standard.

00:44:07.760 | Thank you.

00:44:08.120 | Definitely at the top of my list.

00:44:09.360 | So I appreciate that.

00:44:10.560 | Who else am I going to call?

00:44:11.680 | Uh, okay.

00:44:12.360 | So here's the, here's the question.

00:44:13.800 | And it's from Nathan.

00:44:15.760 | I've edited this a little bit.

00:44:17.160 | What are all of the different factors that have to come together

00:44:22.160 | for a podcast to break out?

00:44:26.240 | No, I think we have to define breakout probably.

00:44:29.360 | Sure.

00:44:29.880 | I think what he means is probably to get a, an audience where

00:44:34.440 | the creator can make a living.

00:44:35.680 | You don't want it to find breakout as all right, I'm the next Andrew Schultz,

00:44:39.080 | Lex Friedman, Joe Rogan, whatever it is.

00:44:41.720 | Cause that's that type of success comes from using social media effectively

00:44:46.360 | over time, going on the Joe Rogan podcast a bunch of times, ideally, and getting

00:44:50.920 | a couple of million dollars in free advertising, you know, that kind of

00:44:53.640 | stuff really helps, but I think.

00:44:56.240 | But ideally, if you're able to create a show and make a living off of it,

00:45:01.440 | then the factors that need to come together are going to be consistently

00:45:06.200 | good content, but over time.

00:45:07.960 | So in social media, you can go, let's say, tick tock, which I don't use, but I know

00:45:12.400 | enough about it from reading about how toxic it is and I know other social media.

00:45:16.000 | And so it's, it's two guys talking about social, two guys who don't use social

00:45:19.440 | media, talking about social media.

00:45:20.560 | But what we do know from that is you can go viral from one or two posts.

00:45:24.640 | You can end up building a little bit of a following and you can go from there

00:45:28.440 | with podcasting, it's kind of the opposite.

00:45:30.320 | You don't really go viral.

00:45:31.840 | It's really hard to share podcasts.

00:45:33.600 | You build one tiny little brick at a time.

00:45:36.400 | You put out a good episode.

00:45:37.680 | Your current audience of 50 people, hears it.

00:45:41.480 | They share it.

00:45:42.480 | They say, this is really good and interesting.

00:45:44.320 | You do that for a few years and suddenly you've got enough.

00:45:49.000 | Let's say traction or momentum to start monetizing it.

00:45:53.880 | And then from there you can start scaling it.

00:45:55.880 | And it's really all about consistently good quality over time.

00:45:58.920 | Not one or two hit posts or interviews.

00:46:01.520 | That is how you do it.

00:46:03.440 | And, and all of the other things that people think grow podcasts are kind of,

00:46:07.800 | it's almost like a myth, right?

00:46:09.080 | They're, Oh, I've got to be posting shorts on Tik TOK.

00:46:12.000 | I gotta be posting shorts on Instagram.

00:46:13.960 | Cool.

00:46:15.280 | You might gain a couple of listeners a day doing that, but it's the

00:46:18.680 | juice usually ain't worth the squeeze.

00:46:21.240 | And retention is a real thing in podcasting.

00:46:24.520 | So if you're doing a show and it's 30 minutes or an hour long, you're

00:46:27.640 | asking people to commit to you.

00:46:28.960 | So if the content isn't that great, but you have really good marketing

00:46:32.840 | and social media, you're going to get a whole bunch of people in.

00:46:35.800 | And they're going to leave.

00:46:37.240 | And it's kind of like trying to fill up a water bucket, but

00:46:39.480 | there are holes in the bottom.

00:46:40.600 | You've got to plug those holes up.

00:46:42.080 | If you're going to be carrying that bucket from the well back to your house.

00:46:44.640 | So you really need to have that basis of consistently good quality.

00:46:49.480 | And that doesn't mean celebrity interviews.

00:46:51.040 | That means stuff that people can really sink their teeth

00:46:52.880 | into whatever niche you're in.

00:46:54.080 | So that's why you see successful podcasts that are very niche.

00:46:57.280 | Like my friend runs a podcast where she just reads court documents and

00:47:02.520 | talks about what's in the court documents for famous cases.

00:47:05.120 | It sounds really boring, but they do a really good job because she's

00:47:08.720 | actually just reading court documents.

00:47:10.520 | And she's like, this is what this means.

00:47:12.160 | And people love it.

00:47:13.520 | It's very hard to do what it's harder to do what I do.

00:47:17.960 | I wouldn't recommend interviewing people that you're interested in as a niche.

00:47:21.800 | It's a really crap niche.

00:47:23.040 | You're going to grow really slowly.

00:47:24.240 | The better you can niche together, niche down, I think they call it

00:47:27.400 | the better off you're going to be.

00:47:28.840 | So don't make it about your personality, unless you are a personality for a

00:47:32.760 | living like Andrew Schultz or Joe Rogan, do something where you're like, this is

00:47:36.920 | the radio controlled plane podcast where I talk about radio controlled planes.

00:47:41.040 | And not about what I did last weekend, unless that involves radio controlled

00:47:44.600 | planes, I only talk about that.

00:47:46.160 | So that speaks to the content, right?

00:47:47.920 | You're not reambering off.

00:47:49.400 | It's well-organized it's delivered.

00:47:51.240 | Well, it's edited and produced well.

00:47:53.120 | And it's, you do that over time.

00:47:55.760 | And that's what grows audience and keep more importantly, keeps

00:47:58.800 | audience listening to you over time.

00:48:01.120 | People try and go too broad.

00:48:03.240 | They try and make themselves a personality using podcasts because they look at guys

00:48:08.000 | like me or Lex or Andrew Huberman or whatever, and they go, oh, I can do that.

00:48:13.640 | A lot of that is luck, time in the market experience, picking a really good niche

00:48:19.840 | and having the qualifications to go for it.

00:48:21.560 | And as in the case of Huberman, who's like a, you know, scientist in his niche,

00:48:25.440 | that is not a re that's not a strategy most of us can reproduce.

00:48:29.400 | That's interesting.

00:48:30.600 | Okay.

00:48:31.000 | And so when you say, and I'm just, I'll ask a follow-up on Nathan's behalf.

00:48:34.200 | So when you, it sounds like when you're talking about content, content, content,

00:48:37.960 | which makes a lot of sense to me, um, content actually captures multiple factors.

00:48:42.640 | So it's not, it's a lot of what you're actually saying, but you're also counting

00:48:46.760 | in there, how does the podcast sound?

00:48:48.920 | How is it written?

00:48:50.240 | Is it tight?

00:48:50.880 | Is it professional?

00:48:52.000 | Uh, if you're going to read court documents for celebrity cases, I'm

00:48:56.480 | assuming for that podcast to work, you have to figure out the format for doing

00:48:59.560 | that, that's actually listenable, that you figure that out, that we do this.

00:49:03.320 | And then it's this, and this is what's interesting and here's what's not.

00:49:06.200 | Uh, and so you're saying obsessed on content.

00:49:09.560 | Writ large though, basically everything that is going into the listener's ear.

00:49:13.760 | You want to be thinking about all sorts of different angles on that.

00:49:16.920 | How could I do that better?

00:49:18.160 | Is this compelling?

00:49:19.680 | Why would I keep listening to this?

00:49:21.520 | Is there anything that's catching my attention as like, Ooh, what's that?

00:49:24.080 | Why is there this, why is the sound echoey?

00:49:26.680 | Why is this, uh, he's rambling.

00:49:28.720 | So, so it's really an obsession with everything that comes out of that ear

00:49:32.160 | bud into the ear, continuing to push that better.

00:49:35.280 | Agree.

00:49:36.360 | Yeah.

00:49:36.600 | It's, it, it has to do with, and I'm not saying you have to hire a producer for

00:49:39.720 | $500 an hour to make and have music behind everything.

00:49:42.320 | What you should avoid are the easy enough, easy to correct pitfalls.

00:49:46.840 | I was listening to a show the other day.

00:49:48.160 | Really interesting content.

00:49:50.120 | Really, really good.

00:49:50.840 | The interviewers weren't bad, but there was a point at which the dog was barking

00:49:54.360 | and he goes, hold on guys, I got to go let my dog out.

00:49:57.240 | And there's just silence for like 30 to 40 seconds where this guy goes and lets

00:50:01.360 | his dog out and he left it in the show.

00:50:02.920 | And I thought that was an inside joke at first, but later on I heard his phone

00:50:06.560 | ring and then he got a phone call and took it for a second and said, I got to

00:50:10.840 | call you back and hung up.

00:50:11.720 | And I thought, Oh, this is a person who doesn't understand that every minute of

00:50:15.840 | mine you waste, you're telling me you don't value my time.

00:50:19.440 | And so that's not a good look for a podcast host.

00:50:22.880 | The tighter it is, the better.

00:50:24.000 | And I'm really cognizant of that.

00:50:26.080 | I read all the books for my guests if they have them when they're on the show, as

00:50:30.000 | you probably remember from me interviewing you and people will say, why aren't your

00:50:34.120 | interviews two or three hours like so-and-so's podcast?

00:50:36.640 | And the answer is because I don't need them to be.

00:50:38.800 | I read the book.

00:50:39.680 | I know where the important stuff is.

00:50:41.480 | If you're digging for gold and you have a map where the gold is buried, you don't

00:50:45.200 | have to spend the three times the amount of time looking for it and meandering

00:50:49.400 | around and, you know, talking about aliens or whatever.

00:50:51.840 | You can focus on the topic and the task at hand.

00:50:54.440 | And that's really, really beneficial because now I can get the best bang for

00:50:59.040 | the buck, the best per minute value for my listener.

00:51:02.760 | And that's what keeps people sticking around.

00:51:04.320 | I routinely get feedback like, wow, I heard so-and-so on your show and I heard him on

00:51:08.240 | this other show in the three hour interview on this other show had less actual meat on

00:51:12.760 | the bone than your forty nine minute interview with that same person.

00:51:16.360 | And that's really what that does is says to the listener, I value your time.

00:51:20.720 | We're going for it.

00:51:21.760 | Right. This is going to be high, high signal, low noise.

00:51:25.280 | And that that retains people.

00:51:26.880 | And it's why I like that comes through in your show, for example, because there are

00:51:30.560 | other people who are going all in on the interview format.

00:51:34.000 | And what you're saying, by the way, makes sense.

00:51:35.760 | Don't try to be you.

00:51:37.200 | Don't try to be Joe Rogan.

00:51:38.680 | If anything else is just a grind.

00:51:41.280 | If to try to get enough guests on a lot of the even up and coming host whose names I

00:51:46.680 | won't say any particular names, it wanders.

00:51:49.480 | And OK, and your show does it right.

00:51:51.680 | It gets right to the meat of it.

00:51:53.240 | And you're saying, yeah, because you spend a lot of time.

00:51:54.840 | You read the books, you think about it.

00:51:57.440 | You're really obsessing about I want this to be very interesting.

00:52:00.760 | You're not just putting weight on.

00:52:02.800 | I'm an interesting guy, which is like a Rogan like Joe Rogan gets away with that.

00:52:07.000 | He's like, I'm a professional talker.

00:52:08.680 | I've been podcasting for 80 years.

00:52:11.160 | I'm an interesting enough guy at this that like we will chat for three hours and I can

00:52:16.080 | somehow make that interesting.

00:52:17.240 | But that's like saying, you know, I can pitch a baseball one hundred two miles per

00:52:21.960 | hour like, yeah, that'd be great.

00:52:23.240 | You're probably going to get a reliever role, but that's not a strategy for everyone

00:52:26.040 | else to try to follow.

00:52:27.760 | If I'm exactly right.

00:52:28.880 | Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

00:52:30.480 | And I would even argue and look, this is probably an unpopular opinion, but I would I

00:52:34.960 | would argue that Joe Rogan would be a better interviewer if he would read and prep the

00:52:38.240 | interview before the show, because his curiosity takes him to a lot of interesting

00:52:42.000 | places. But he could also keep that curiosity while not just meandering around and then

00:52:47.840 | getting stoned and talking about DMT.

00:52:49.640 | But again, I know not everybody agrees with that.

00:52:52.200 | That's just my two cents.

00:52:53.680 | That's the style in which I do my show, which is more focused.

00:52:56.720 | And look, even if I'm wrong about Joe Rogan, we're not wrong about the other ten

00:53:01.320 | thousand Joe Rogan wannabe clones out there who are trying to do the same thing and

00:53:04.800 | wondering why they can't get traction.

00:53:06.520 | Yeah, one of the reasons.

00:53:07.480 | All right. So then one other quick follow up, just a timeline question.

00:53:10.680 | I would put some actual projections on this.

00:53:14.240 | Let's use my own show as a case study.

00:53:17.440 | It's two and a half years old.

00:53:19.600 | Is this does that put it pretty much still in the finding your feet, finding your

00:53:24.120 | audience stage? That's is that relatively young sometimes for a podcast.

00:53:27.520 | I mean, where am I in a life cycle of a long term show?

00:53:32.280 | It sort of depends on the niche, right?

00:53:34.480 | If you're a true crime podcast, you can get traction in season one.

00:53:37.600 | And it's like, wow, this is the biggest thing.

00:53:39.520 | Look at how many downloads this murder murders.

00:53:43.200 | People getting murdered in parks.

00:53:44.400 | Podcast is crushing it.

00:53:45.520 | Right. That's different than this is a guy who answers questions or gives advice that

00:53:50.280 | might take that could take years to get traction.

00:53:52.920 | That's why I always tell people, like, don't try and emulate what I'm doing.

00:53:55.760 | Mine. I had an 11 year runway before this stuff was really or seven years before this

00:54:00.640 | is really doing something.

00:54:02.120 | The better of the niche you pick, the better off you are.

00:54:05.080 | The more narrow of an issue pick, the better off you are.

00:54:07.280 | So I don't know. Two and a half years.

00:54:09.240 | You got plenty of traction on your show.

00:54:10.880 | Is it going to be bigger in two and a half more years?

00:54:13.480 | Of course it is, because you're doing well.

00:54:15.240 | But, you know, look, you've been teaching for a while.

00:54:17.160 | So you bring that skill set in.

00:54:18.480 | You've got professional recording equipment and help.

00:54:20.680 | So you've got that skill set.

00:54:21.920 | You work with some really good advertiser ad sales guys that I know and some production

00:54:27.360 | people that I've worked with.

00:54:28.720 | They're good. So you've got, I would say, performance enhancing drugs in your in your

00:54:34.720 | repertoire here. Right.

00:54:35.680 | With those kinds of things.

00:54:36.600 | If guys are in their garage basement, their college students, they're doing this.

00:54:40.120 | They can't afford to hire people.

00:54:41.560 | They've got whatever they got.

00:54:42.920 | Their acoustic environment is what it is.

00:54:44.840 | They can't go to a studio.

00:54:45.800 | The microphone they got is the biggest expense they have.

00:54:47.640 | It's going to take a little bit longer because they're not necessarily going to have the

00:54:51.840 | option to have professionals helping them out.

00:54:54.280 | Does that mean their show's going to stay small?

00:54:56.160 | Not necessarily.

00:54:57.160 | But again, you know, I I'm thankful for the amount of time it took me to become successful

00:55:04.240 | because during that time I learned how to interview.

00:55:06.800 | I don't think you can really speed up experience that much.

00:55:09.400 | Of course you can a little, but it's very difficult to do it.

00:55:12.360 | So I'm almost you wouldn't want to start a podcast and then end up on the top 10 shows

00:55:19.520 | all overnight because what will happen?

00:55:21.520 | You wouldn't want Joe Rogan to find you and go, come on my show and have 10 million

00:55:25.040 | people go and listen to your show.

00:55:26.480 | And nine point nine million of them go.

00:55:29.000 | That was terrible.

00:55:30.120 | This guy is terrible.

00:55:31.440 | You want to slowly build that audience, that loyalty over time and have them share

00:55:36.280 | because it's the snowball is packed tighter, if that analogy makes sense.

00:55:40.840 | Right. The people stick around longer.

00:55:42.320 | Your experience speaks for itself.

00:55:44.400 | After a bit of time, you really do have your niche set.

00:55:48.240 | Your personality is set.

00:55:49.360 | Your style is set.

00:55:50.480 | It's something that's really hard to rush.

00:55:53.040 | Yeah.

00:55:53.440 | And I agree with that example because I'm just thinking I know a lot of people who have

00:55:58.560 | gone on Joe Rogan show and nothing particularly explosive happened.

00:56:03.880 | But when you see like the other characters you mentioned, like Lex or like Andrew doing

00:56:08.920 | frequent guest spots, they were doing that at a time, especially in Lex's case, where he

00:56:12.920 | had a very matured product ready.

00:56:15.640 | I mean, he had been doing the AI podcast for a long time.

00:56:18.400 | He had found his voice.

00:56:19.440 | He had a good audience.

00:56:21.040 | That's a whole different situation.

00:56:22.880 | So now you have your thing figured out after years and years of work.

00:56:26.440 | Then you start getting big exposure.

00:56:28.280 | You can actually you can actually harness it.

00:56:30.800 | So that all makes sense.

00:56:31.680 | And I will say, OK, so because I'm closer to Nathan where he would be if he's starting a

00:56:35.840 | podcast and obviously you are right now, Jordan, you've been doing this forever.

00:56:38.880 | My thing, Nathan, is this is very hard.

00:56:40.600 | This has been basically my experience is podcasting is very hard.

00:56:45.040 | There's a million aspects to go into it, but just the writing of material, communicating

00:56:50.400 | clearly, making it interesting.

00:56:51.960 | It's a slog.

00:56:53.000 | People do not want to give you their time lightly and it's really hard to earn it.

00:56:58.240 | And it really does feel to me, I don't know if you have the same feeling so far into your

00:57:03.240 | career, Jordan, but but for me, it's, you know, month by month, season by season, it

00:57:07.520 | always feels so slow to me.

00:57:09.280 | I feel like why can't I gain traction now if I zoom out?

00:57:12.080 | I say, OK, there's a reasonable trajectory here.

00:57:15.760 | I remember I started taking on advertising when I could hit 15000 downloads an episode

00:57:21.440 | because you could do two episodes a week and aggregate to 30.

00:57:24.400 | And it was like the barrier of entry.

00:57:26.560 | And now we'll do maybe 50000 downloads per episode.

00:57:30.640 | Zooming out, I'm like, there's a reasonable trajectory there.

00:57:33.240 | Every inch along that way has been frustration.

00:57:36.280 | I agree with this is not growing.

00:57:38.040 | This is barely growing.

00:57:39.000 | Oh, and also the stupid download calendar.

00:57:41.880 | It's very seasonal.

00:57:43.120 | So you're always having in the short term dips because it's, you know, July.

00:57:48.120 | And so you always feel like you're losing listeners.

00:57:50.720 | You really have to zoom out before you feel like you're making any traction.

00:57:53.760 | All right. Final, final follow up.

00:57:56.280 | When do you know to pull the ripcord?

00:57:57.760 | Most podcasts don't succeed.

00:57:58.960 | So let's say you're in you're like, I'm into it.

00:58:00.840 | I'm committed. I'm putting time into it.

00:58:03.360 | I want this to succeed.

00:58:04.520 | I'm willing to spend time.

00:58:05.800 | What's the signs that this is not going to you're stuck at 10000 downloads or whatever it is?

00:58:10.880 | This is not going to grow enough.

00:58:12.360 | It's not where it needs to be. It's not going to grow anymore.

00:58:13.960 | What are the signs for pulling the ripcord?

00:58:15.480 | Sure. So I was speaking with Andy Duke on my show is a recent episode.

00:58:19.800 | I wish I had the number in front of me, but she talked about quitting.

00:58:22.240 | That's her new bit of work.

00:58:23.520 | She's a professional poker player.

00:58:24.800 | And she talks about kill kill criteria.

00:58:27.200 | And so kill criteria is where you say before you're the worst time to make a decision is when you're in it.

00:58:32.640 | So you say, if I'm not able to pay for the expenses of this podcast by next year, I'm going to stop doing it.

00:58:40.400 | Or if I'm not able if I'm not enjoying this in six months, I'm going to stop doing it unless it's making X dollars.

00:58:48.000 | Right. Something like that.

00:58:49.040 | So if look, the first thing is, it could be a hobby.

00:58:52.240 | That's totally OK.

00:58:53.160 | In fact, I'm usually against people turning hobbies into jobs because it's a great way to it's a good way to ruin your hobby.

00:59:00.120 | So if you're doing a podcast and you like it and you don't have that many listeners, who cares?

00:59:04.360 | Just keep doing it.

00:59:05.280 | It's a hobby. But if you are deluding yourself and saying this is going to be my job, but you have 500 listeners and then then a year later, you have 600 listeners.

00:59:15.960 | It's very unlikely that you are going to build enough traction to create a living for yourself again.

00:59:22.040 | If you enjoy doing it, who cares?

00:59:24.040 | Just keep doing it.

00:59:25.200 | But don't don't try to make yourself the exception in your mind that you are going to you're going to be the special one is going to turn this thing into a job overnight because it's very, very hard to do.

00:59:35.560 | And so I would set up kill criteria and I would say, look, if I don't enjoy it, I'm going to stop doing it.

00:59:40.400 | And if you're trying to monetize this and you're sort of halfway there, like maybe you're making a few thousand dollars a month or a year and it's not enough to quit your job, then you have to decide what you're comfortable with.

00:59:52.200 | If you're spending 20 hours on your podcast, but a lot of it feels like work and it's not paying for itself, set up kill criteria where you decide this is when I'm going to stop doing it and this is when I'm going to to to really go for it.

01:00:04.080 | There's there's not a go all in type of thing unless you're really hitting those those financial metrics.

01:00:09.680 | What I usually recommend instead of trying to figure out how to make this your job is partially monetize it.

01:00:15.520 | If you're in that position to do so, let's say you're making five hundred dollars a month, use that money to take the part of it that you don't like doing.

01:00:22.400 | Maybe the editing you don't like doing hire an editor.

01:00:25.160 | Now you've got a hobby where you just do the fun parts.

01:00:27.680 | It's like if you're really into radio control cars and you've got money from it, let's see if somehow you're making a YouTube channel for that.

01:00:35.600 | You're making a thousand dollars a month.

01:00:36.800 | Take that money and pay someone to fix the cars when you break them.

01:00:40.160 | Then you're just running them right now.

01:00:41.640 | You've got a great hobby where all the stuff you don't like doing is not your problem anymore.

01:00:45.560 | That's the way to do this.

01:00:47.040 | Start outsourcing as much stuff as you can so that if you do hit that sort of inflection point where you're making enough to make it your job, you're not then doing everything yourself and becoming miserable in the process.

01:00:59.480 | You've already outsourced everything else.

01:01:01.120 | So now your hobby happens to be lucrative.

01:01:03.840 | Now that's the best position for you to be in, in my opinion.

01:01:07.160 | Jordan, great advice.

01:01:09.360 | I appreciate you coming on.

01:01:10.600 | Help me with this one because I'm usually just grabbing in the dark.

01:01:13.120 | Also a great time to announce my new podcast.

01:01:15.320 | It's called Deep RC.

01:01:17.080 | It's all about radio controlled cars and I just get into it.

01:01:20.240 | Uh, it's four hours per episode and we do circuit schematics.

01:01:25.240 | We just walk through the circuit schematics.

01:01:26.960 | It's scintillating audio.

01:01:28.360 | So you say, okay.

01:01:29.200 | And then there's no plan for the episode in the beginning whatsoever.

01:01:32.920 | We just, whatever we want.

01:01:34.040 | Yeah.

01:01:34.360 | It's me and eight other people and we record it outside.

01:01:36.760 | All right, Jordan.

01:01:37.640 | Uh, AirPods on AirPods.

01:01:39.040 | Exactly.

01:01:39.520 | Uh, I appreciate it.

01:01:40.840 | Uh, everyone, Jordan, the Jordan Harbinger show.

01:01:42.720 | I think it's the best interview podcast out there.

01:01:44.360 | If you want to see how a pro does it, listen to that.

01:01:47.160 | Um, you won't regret it.

01:01:49.040 | All right.

01:01:49.440 | Thanks, Jordan.

01:01:49.840 | Thank you.

01:01:50.800 | All right.

01:01:51.840 | Well, uh, thank you, Jordan, for helping me on that particular question.

01:01:56.240 | Uh, let's move on to a few more questions that you, the listeners have sent in.

01:02:00.920 | Jesse, what do we have next?

01:02:02.920 | All right.

01:02:03.960 | Next question is from Hannah, a 27 year old math tutor.

01:02:07.200 | Hi Cal, your book on deep work helped me finish my PhD.

01:02:11.520 | Now I've cultivated a life where I only work four hours a day, but I'm stuck

01:02:14.880 | with what to do with the remaining time.

01:02:16.840 | I feel like this is the lifestyle I planned for and dreamed of while I was

01:02:20.840 | in academia, but now I have it and I'm bored.

01:02:23.520 | Any advice?

01:02:24.520 | Well, I like this question because it, it helps underscore one of the points we

01:02:29.040 | made during the deep dive earlier in this episode, which is there are cons to the

01:02:34.520 | limited or no ambition approach to life.

01:02:38.480 | So what Hannah was going for, and this is a perfectly reasonable goal is I want a

01:02:41.680 | lot of flexibility and autonomy.

01:02:43.120 | I want my work to be interesting, but not take up too much of my time.

01:02:46.440 | And she has achieved that transforming her PhD into a job that requires

01:02:50.440 | about four hours a day.

01:02:51.480 | And she's bored because there's no ambitious goals that she is pursuing.

01:02:57.840 | There's no sense of progress.

01:02:59.280 | There's no sense of gratitude or enjoyment that she could invest in the things

01:03:02.320 | that she has already accomplished.

01:03:05.840 | So this shows the, uh, this shows the, the issue or the problem with just saying,

01:03:11.560 | man, if I just had less, then I would be happy.

01:03:15.080 | So what should you do, Hannah?

01:03:16.560 | Well, we're going to increase the ambition in your life, but

01:03:19.560 | we're going to do so with care.

01:03:22.080 | And in particular, I'm not so worried about the amount of time something requires.

01:03:27.880 | I worry more about the autonomy.

01:03:30.080 | So we're going to assess various options to add into your life,

01:03:33.360 | new obligations or pursuits.

01:03:35.400 | But when we do this, we're going to tight trade in these new activities

01:03:39.400 | carefully to make sure that you are not sapping away your autonomy excessively.

01:03:46.800 | So let's say, for example, you bring in a, a additional professional pursuit.

01:03:51.560 | You are going to, uh, so your PhD is in, I'm assuming mathematics

01:03:57.160 | since you're a math tutor.

01:03:58.000 | So maybe, you know, you, you want to write a really good expository book.

01:04:05.400 | On a otherwise complex field of mathematics.

01:04:07.920 | It's like really relevant now or something like that.

01:04:09.640 | It's like, this is like linear algebra for artificial

01:04:12.440 | intelligence or something like that.

01:04:13.640 | That could potentially be a, uh, a hard project and ambitious project, but one

01:04:17.840 | that you have a lot of autonomy over.

01:04:19.840 | So like you're reading and writing on a lot of days, but if you wanted to go

01:04:23.320 | away for two weeks and not write or weren't feeling well, no big issue.

01:04:26.720 | Right.

01:04:27.520 | That is very different on the autonomy scale than if you took, let's say a second

01:04:31.560 | job, and now you're scrambling every single day, you have to get this other

01:04:34.920 | work done and you're falling behind.

01:04:36.120 | You're losing control of your time.

01:04:37.320 | So as we add a new ambition, which you need just to add an ambition

01:04:40.480 | that gives you a lot of autonomy.

01:04:41.760 | The second piece of advice I'd give you here is use both sides of the

01:04:45.840 | professional non-professional coin.

01:04:47.720 | So you might add in some professional, additional professional ambition with

01:04:52.440 | autonomy, balance that out with some extra non-professional ambition.

01:04:58.080 | I am going to learn how to program eight bit video games on an Arduino, because

01:05:03.440 | this is what you should be doing with your math degree, Hannah, trust me.

01:05:06.240 | It's definitely not frustrating.

01:05:08.200 | Everything just works every time.

01:05:09.280 | But those, you know, you have a lot of, it's easier to gain autonomy

01:05:13.160 | in non-professional ambitions because it's usually just something you're doing.

01:05:16.840 | No one cares if you take a month away a month off from your hobby, et cetera.

01:05:21.680 | So that's what I would say.

01:05:22.320 | Let's start adding some more ambition back in your life.

01:05:24.480 | I think your vision of having no work was what's going to make you happy was flawed.

01:05:28.040 | But because you're in this nice, comfortable position of, it's

01:05:32.200 | not like you need the money.

01:05:33.480 | Focus on maximizing autonomy.

01:05:36.760 | Things can be hard, but make sure it's flexible in how you execute them.

01:05:41.120 | And let's get that ambition level up.

01:05:43.320 | I would also use my pragmatic ambition framework in doing this whenever

01:05:46.880 | possible, try to build up to these things with concrete projects you can

01:05:51.880 | accomplish within a year that give you these clear, sustainable results that

01:05:56.000 | happen afterwards that you can over time, keep reaping enjoyment from.

01:06:00.280 | So maybe use the pragmatic ambition framework to choose these and to approach

01:06:04.200 | them, maximize autonomy, and I think you're going to get yourself, you're

01:06:08.880 | going to get this formula tweaked to a point that's going to be, to be a lot,

01:06:12.800 | a lot more satisfying than your current setup.

01:06:14.440 | All right.

01:06:16.680 | What else have we got, Jesse?

01:06:17.520 | All right.

01:06:18.480 | Next question is from Jessica, a 30 year old executive assistant.

01:06:23.640 | I work a busy nine to five job as an executive assistant.

01:06:26.680 | Outside of my full-time job, I work on academic and creative projects that I

01:06:30.320 | hope will eventually land me a professorship.

01:06:32.280 | Working on these side projects on top of my full-time job feels overwhelming.

01:06:37.320 | If I work on all of them every day, I really can't make any progress, but if I

01:06:41.400 | focus on one at a time, I lose momentum.

01:06:43.800 | Well, Jessica, this is a good problem.

01:06:47.000 | It's kind of the opposite of the one we just heard.

01:06:49.400 | So Hannah had not enough things to do, not happy.

01:06:53.240 | Jessica has too many different things she's doing, also not happy.

01:06:56.560 | So here we have in these back-to-back questions, a clear illustration of the

01:07:00.040 | grand ambition, no ambition dichotomy that we talked about earlier.

01:07:03.800 | So Jessica, what I'm going to recommend here first is that we make a semantic

01:07:10.320 | distinction between two different types of, we'll call them optional pursuits,

01:07:16.080 | optional pursuits, so not your primary job things.

01:07:18.720 | You have some say into whether or not you do them or not.

01:07:21.200 | I want to divide these type of pursuits into what we'll call

01:07:24.800 | background activities and projects.

01:07:28.360 | And I think you're going to find this useful to think of

01:07:31.080 | these two things differently.

01:07:32.200 | Background activities are things you do on a set schedule, on a regular basis

01:07:39.200 | that become a part of just the background pattern of activity in your life.

01:07:43.480 | Right?

01:07:44.000 | So let's say for example, you exercise, you have a good exercise routine.

01:07:47.920 | That's a classic background activity.

01:07:49.640 | It's just a part of your life.

01:07:51.040 | If you've built your life around, you know, I exercise every other

01:07:54.120 | day for 45 minutes, you know, here's what I do.

01:07:56.840 | That's a classic background activity.

01:07:59.080 | In your particular context of pursuing an academic life and you elaborated, it's

01:08:05.720 | not in the short version of the question we read, but your elaborated version of

01:08:09.080 | the question, you have a doctorate, like you have this realistic path

01:08:13.120 | back to an academic position.

01:08:14.520 | So let's say reading, keeping up with the literature is important.

01:08:20.040 | That could be a background activity.

01:08:21.360 | You know, I read a journal article every week.

01:08:23.160 | I just, I select it on Sunday.

01:08:24.640 | I read in the mornings before I get to work.

01:08:27.360 | That's an example of a background activity as well.

01:08:30.120 | I want to contrast this, the projects.

01:08:33.080 | The one-time effort that has a clear, now I'm done conclusion.

01:08:37.960 | The projects are where I want you to focus on one at a time.

01:08:42.200 | So you might have multiple background activities that are relevant to your

01:08:48.200 | overall ambition here to return more towards an academic professional

01:08:52.800 | configuration, you might get, you might have two or three things.

01:08:55.560 | I read a journal article every week.

01:08:57.800 | I, you know, every month I joined this reading group, the talk about something.

01:09:03.360 | I contribute a book review every quarter to this magazine.

01:09:06.840 | I just do this.

01:09:07.760 | It's just background activities.

01:09:09.120 | I found where they fit into my schedule.

01:09:11.200 | I've autopiloted them.

01:09:12.360 | I know where that time is.

01:09:13.400 | It's just like me going to the gym or walking my dog.

01:09:15.880 | These are just things I do.

01:09:17.040 | So you can have multiple background activities that are all giving you a

01:09:20.160 | slow and steady accumulation of positive advantage.

01:09:24.400 | You're learning new things.

01:09:25.600 | You're publishing new things.

01:09:26.920 | You're building your skills and that's all adding up in the background.

01:09:29.400 | But in terms of just, here's a project that's going to be done at some

01:09:32.360 | point, and it's taking a lot of extra effort, only do one of those at a time.

01:09:35.560 | And your question, you told me in your elaborated version that you're doing

01:09:39.560 | three different major things at a time.

01:09:41.800 | And that's too many.

01:09:44.600 | Now you say you're worried about losing momentum.

01:09:46.480 | Well, if you're doing these background activities, you're going to feel like

01:09:49.760 | on these key areas in your pursuit of your academic career, you're always

01:09:54.440 | making progress or is no lost momentum.

01:09:56.280 | And then the projects, yes, you're doing one, one at a time, but momentum.

01:10:01.920 | Just do one at a time.

01:10:03.600 | That's your momentum.

01:10:05.040 | And then when you get that to a good milestone, you have to wait then for

01:10:08.160 | whatever, like a peer review to come back because you were writing a journal

01:10:10.880 | article, then you can bring in another project and keep working on that until.

01:10:14.720 | A milestone.

01:10:15.400 | I think this notion, your fear is, I think that if you're not doing these

01:10:19.520 | big projects all at once, that you're not somehow accomplishing enough things,

01:10:22.640 | but we've talked about this many times on the show, that's just an illusion.

01:10:25.880 | When you interleave projects, it's not like you're spending the

01:10:29.200 | same amount of time on all three.

01:10:30.720 | You're still only in each moment of time.

01:10:32.840 | You can only really be working on one.

01:10:34.360 | So you're working on three projects, but at a third of the pace is if you were

01:10:37.280 | just working on these one at a time.

01:10:38.600 | So it's not like you're getting more done if you're interleaving all these things.

01:10:41.840 | You might as well just focus intensely on one project till a clear milestone,

01:10:44.880 | doing it well with plenty of time and space for deep work and focus.

01:10:48.640 | And then when you're done with a milestone, move on to the next.

01:10:51.200 | Over time, you'll end up, this is a slow productivity principle.

01:10:56.120 | Over time, you'll end up accomplishing just as much, if not more, doing one

01:11:00.360 | thing at a time, giving it your full attention at a natural pace than if you

01:11:04.280 | try to do everything at the same time.

01:11:05.560 | You just have to trust that if you zoom out to the next two years, you will end

01:11:10.560 | up in a better place, even if over the next two weeks, you feel like you're

01:11:13.680 | only working on one thing, so do that with your projects, but support this

01:11:17.960 | with background activities that you've autopiloted into your schedule that

01:11:21.440 | make sure that you're constantly making progress small, but steady, slow steps

01:11:24.840 | towards the skills and knowledge you need to get towards your ambition.

01:11:27.880 | That combination of the stuff always happening in the background, that's

01:11:30.680 | useful, plus these bigger swing projects, one at a time, that's the right rhythm.

01:11:34.720 | Of trying to actually build a new direction for your life, build a new

01:11:39.400 | career, build up an entirely new skillset.

01:11:41.280 | I think that's what plays best with the way your mind actually operates.

01:11:44.200 | Don't try to interleave many large things simultaneously.

01:11:48.080 | Same principle if the side projects are one to two months long.

01:11:52.240 | Yeah, I think that's fine.

01:11:53.920 | Like do one for one to two months.

01:11:55.920 | Yeah.

01:11:56.280 | Yeah.

01:11:56.720 | And then once that's done, do another one.

01:11:58.560 | The background activities really do help here because it gives you a

01:12:01.840 | sense of continuity of progress.

01:12:03.360 | Otherwise you worry like, well, these other, this project's only

01:12:07.440 | working on this one relevant thing.

01:12:09.280 | And these other things are relevant.

01:12:10.360 | I'm not going to get to them for another six months, but the background

01:12:12.400 | activities can help just give you this background sense of, well, I'm reading

01:12:15.160 | every day and I'm writing this review column every month or whatever it is.

01:12:18.920 | So like, I'm, I'm out there constantly making progress, even if in my project

01:12:22.800 | life, I'm just stuck on this one project and maybe it's not really, I'm

01:12:25.640 | not really making much progress.

01:12:26.800 | So it helps get over that fear of I'm not moving quick enough.

01:12:31.640 | Yeah.

01:12:32.360 | Also the slow and steady accumulation of like, I just read a journal article

01:12:35.600 | every week, write a review every month.

01:12:37.000 | For example, do that for two years.

01:12:39.640 | The amount of work that piles up is like equivalent to like a full-time

01:12:44.320 | project you spent three or four months on, like quit your job and

01:12:46.560 | put all of your energy into it.

01:12:47.520 | Like that, that slow and steady stuff really does add up.

01:12:49.800 | I don't think people don't give enough credit to the slow and steady

01:12:53.920 | autopilot into your schedule.

01:12:55.440 | Turn it on, get the flywheel going, come back two years later

01:12:59.800 | and see what's been accumulated.

01:13:01.200 | That actually can do that does a lot more work than people think.

01:13:04.000 | They put a lot of focus on the big bold project.

01:13:06.920 | This thing, this paper is going to change the world, but they forget

01:13:10.800 | the last three years of reading an article every week is what gave

01:13:13.360 | them the framework that's going to allow them to one day write a great paper.

01:13:15.960 | So like you can't forget the background activities.

01:13:17.800 | Yeah.

01:13:18.120 | All right.

01:13:19.800 | Let's keep rolling.

01:13:20.280 | What do we got next?

01:13:20.960 | All right.

01:13:21.960 | Next question is from Derek, a 34 year old engineer.

01:13:24.960 | I have full-time job in a side hustle, which is drastically different.

01:13:28.920 | Should I make multiple strategic planning documents?

01:13:31.840 | Yeah, I thought we should do a, a technical nuts and bolts

01:13:34.640 | productivity question here.

01:13:36.120 | Two completely different professional endeavors.

01:13:39.880 | If you're a multi-scale planning aficionados, you do daily planning,

01:13:45.000 | which is informed by weekly planning, which is informed by strategic planning.

01:13:47.960 | Should you have two different strategic plans?

01:13:49.600 | If you want, if you want, I don't, I tend to just have different sections

01:13:56.600 | in one professional strategic plan.

01:13:58.320 | If you'd rather have it in two documents, that's fine too.

01:14:01.200 | I don't think it really matters.

01:14:02.680 | Derek in his elaborated form of this question said one of the reasons why he

01:14:07.920 | was worried about having multiple different documents is that there'd be

01:14:13.160 | some sort of context switching cost.

01:14:14.720 | That's not relevant here, Derek.

01:14:15.960 | You look at these things once a week, right?

01:14:19.040 | So I don't, there's no like ongoing issue that you had to look at two

01:14:22.560 | different documents when planning your weekly plan.

01:14:24.360 | So that's going to be up to the user.

01:14:26.560 | I will say one reason why I do keep my professional strategic plans

01:14:30.880 | together in one document is that I kept finding that there are points of overlap.

01:14:34.960 | And so you might say, well, wait a second.

01:14:37.200 | Your writing is very separate from your academic work, which is very separate

01:14:42.000 | from your media company podcasting.

01:14:43.520 | So they should each have their three documents, but I kept finding points

01:14:47.400 | that were unifying all of them.

01:14:49.280 | I kept finding that I would have, for example, okay, here's my plan

01:14:52.600 | for managing my time this semester.

01:14:56.320 | Here's my rules I'm using this semester.

01:14:58.360 | And those rules would involve all those different roles.

01:15:01.480 | And I was like, well, what document does this go into?

01:15:03.160 | The Georgetown one, does it go in the media company one?

01:15:06.360 | Does it go in the writing one?

01:15:07.200 | I just figured out in the end, it was just, this stuff has more overlapping

01:15:10.080 | than I think just have one big document.

01:15:11.680 | It's fine if there's a section that's talking about a writing specific thing

01:15:15.440 | and a section talking about a computer science specific thing in a section

01:15:18.240 | that talks about a time management approach that I'm putting in place

01:15:21.920 | this semester that covers both.

01:15:23.480 | And so for that reason, I keep them in one.

01:15:25.640 | If two works for you, it doesn't really matter.

01:15:27.720 | Like you're not doing something bad if you break your strategic plan in the two.

01:15:31.120 | All right, let's let's do one more question here.

01:15:36.000 | Sounds good.

01:15:37.440 | Next question from Mark.

01:15:39.320 | My 15 year old brother is addicted to his phone and regularly logs

01:15:42.680 | four plus hours a day on TikTok, YouTube, etc.

01:15:46.200 | He vehemently avoids reading books or anything else intellectual.

01:15:49.800 | How can I pull him away from his phone and towards more rewarding activities?

01:15:54.600 | Well, Mark told us that he's 17 when he elaborated.

01:15:58.920 | So the 17 year old worried about his 15 year old brother, Mark,

01:16:01.880 | I think what you need to do is beat better habits into your brother.

01:16:06.560 | I see.

01:16:07.560 | I just think you have to if you hit him hard enough,

01:16:10.480 | he will feel compelled to follow your advice.

01:16:13.600 | Now, I'm joking.

01:16:14.720 | I have a bunch of boys.

01:16:15.520 | It's very hard for boys to give advice to their other siblings.

01:16:18.240 | They hate it.

01:16:19.440 | I, I honestly believe my 10 year old could be on fire

01:16:25.000 | and if my eight year old said there's a bucket of water over there,

01:16:28.600 | you should use to put out that fire.

01:16:30.440 | My 10 year old would say fire has many benefits,

01:16:33.720 | including the ability to heat a room or be able to cook food.

01:16:38.320 | So it is very hard for brothers to give advice to other brothers.

01:16:41.960 | But the reason why I put this question in here,

01:16:43.920 | why is it relevant to our discussion of ambition and burnout?

01:16:46.880 | Is because what your brother is missing is pragmatic ambitions.

01:16:53.000 | He does not have these in his life.

01:16:55.080 | This is something I learned when I studied phone overuse for my book,

01:16:59.080 | Digital Minimalism.

01:17:02.080 | The issue is not so much.

01:17:04.240 | These things are so negative and addictive

01:17:07.680 | that you have to stop doing the negative or addictive thing.

01:17:11.000 | The issue for a lot of people is that these things, the tick tock,

01:17:15.560 | the excessive YouTube is really good at filling in an existential void

01:17:19.960 | in your life.

01:17:21.440 | You don't know what to do with your time.

01:17:23.120 | In fact, you're not happy when you have nothing to do.

01:17:25.280 | You're left alone with your own thoughts.

01:17:27.360 | You don't like being there and you want your mind to be somewhere.

01:17:30.880 | And if this was 30 years ago, it would be compulsive TV watching.

01:17:34.360 | And if this was 80 years ago, it would be compulsive drinking.

01:17:37.120 | And for you in this period, it's this phone has these pleasing sounds,

01:17:41.960 | these pleasing sights, and it just sort of distracts me.

01:17:45.200 | And so the key to getting away from that is not just a white knuckle.

01:17:48.880 | This is negative, do less negative.

01:17:50.840 | It is instead, how do we put the good into your life

01:17:53.920 | that makes this other stuff seem less vivid, less compelling?

01:17:57.680 | How do we get the pragmatic ambitions of your life that you've succeeded on some

01:18:00.640 | and you're you're living on the dividends of that and enjoying this thing

01:18:04.440 | you accomplish in this thing you did and are laddering up to the next one

01:18:07.280 | to the point where you look back at tick tock and say,

01:18:09.680 | what is going on over here?

01:18:11.880 | Like, do I really want to spend an hour watching this kid do this dance?

01:18:15.280 | And there's these like weird flashing sounds.

01:18:18.120 | Or do I want to get back to the eight bit Arduino video game

01:18:22.320 | player I'm making and whatever, get the new feature to work?

01:18:24.800 | Because the last one was pretty cool

01:18:26.280 | and it was featured on this board, and I feel pretty competent about it.

01:18:29.680 | So, Mark, the issue is your brother doesn't need to be pushed away

01:18:33.600 | from the negative.

01:18:34.280 | He needs to be pushed towards the positive so that the negative becomes.

01:18:37.600 | Clearly, self-evidently a poor use of time.

01:18:42.240 | So you need to.

01:18:44.880 | He needs to be engaged in that.

01:18:46.400 | Now, how do you actually do that?

01:18:47.400 | I mean, again, sibling dynamics are hard if you just say, hey, brother,

01:18:50.520 | you need to read more books.

01:18:52.800 | You know, if you again, if he's like my kids, he will come back and say

01:18:55.960 | paper cuts are a real issue.

01:18:59.200 | You know, Mein Kampf was written by Hitler

01:19:02.840 | and poisoned a lot of minds and books aren't that great.

01:19:06.080 | Right. Like if you're saying that they're not going to do it,

01:19:08.040 | but what you can do is model it.

01:19:10.080 | You can do ambitious, pragmatically ambitious endeavors.

01:19:14.920 | Your brother can see you succeed with these things, the enjoyment you get out of it,

01:19:18.240 | the way you've structured your life around it, the variety, the engagement,

01:19:22.800 | the interestingness that pervades your life.

01:19:25.920 | He sees that he sees that's better, that's self-evidently better

01:19:30.120 | than just staring at tick tock all day.

01:19:33.280 | And he sees that now he's maybe more likely to try something.

01:19:35.560 | Now you can bring him into something you're doing carefully and casually.

01:19:39.080 | But that's what has to happen here.

01:19:41.160 | Just haranguing someone that what they're doing is negative

01:19:43.280 | when it comes to addictive screen use does not work.

01:19:45.360 | They have to make it seem superfluous.

01:19:48.880 | They have to make it seem less vivid.

01:19:50.640 | They have to make it seem less compelling.

01:19:52.200 | And the only way to do that is to add things into their lives

01:19:54.400 | that is much more engaging.

01:19:56.520 | So pragmatic ambition is the way out of the excessive phone use trap.

01:20:01.520 | And it's a flywheel that once you get turning, it's going to keep turning for a while.

01:20:04.840 | So we've got to figure out a way to get that initial one or two revolutions

01:20:08.360 | actually going.

01:20:11.360 | Good questions.

01:20:12.360 | That was a topic, Jesse, where we could have a variety of questions,

01:20:14.560 | you know, like ambition, burnout, like so many things.

01:20:17.000 | Yeah. Cover it. Yeah.

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01:23:54.640 | All right, let's do something interesting.

01:23:57.600 | So as longtime listeners know, I maintain an email address.

01:24:01.320 | Interesting at Cal Newport dot com, where I encourage my listeners

01:24:04.080 | and readers to send me interesting things from around the Internet

01:24:06.680 | that they think I might enjoy.

01:24:09.640 | I like to take examples from this and talk about them at the end of the show.

01:24:13.520 | So today I have an article to share with you.

01:24:17.600 | I believe this appeared in Wired magazine back in 2014.

01:24:22.480 | You will see why in a second why I found it interesting.

01:24:25.680 | If you were watching the show at YouTube dot com slash Cal Newport Media,

01:24:28.560 | you will see this article on the screen.

01:24:30.800 | And if you're listening, I'll narrate it for you.

01:24:32.560 | But here's the article from 2014.

01:24:35.200 | The headline is Meet the first women first woman

01:24:38.760 | to win math's most prestigious prize.

01:24:42.120 | So this is about Miriam

01:24:44.680 | Mizokani, Mirzakani, is an Iranian mathematician

01:24:50.880 | who is a professor at Stanford and in 2014 won the Fields Medal,

01:24:55.360 | incredibly prestigious award in mathematics like the Nobel Prize

01:25:00.560 | of mathematics.

01:25:02.880 | All right, so let me show you who this is.

01:25:05.440 | So she was 37 and a mathematics professor.

01:25:08.640 | So Mizokani was a 37 year old mathematics professor at Stanford

01:25:11.840 | when she won the Fields Medal.

01:25:14.840 | The area that she won the Fields Medal in.

01:25:17.640 | I have this on the screen now.

01:25:20.560 | That old chestnut you probably remember from like seventh grade

01:25:23.280 | mathematics class, hyperbolic geometry.

01:25:26.120 | So she she studies hyperbolic

01:25:29.560 | geometry, which includes the dynamics of abstract surfaces,

01:25:34.000 | man, and all sorts of other complicated things.

01:25:37.680 | So what I'm just trying to establish there is it's a complicated type of math.

01:25:41.080 | I like this one point I want to make here.

01:25:44.120 | So one of her collaborators says she had a recent theorem

01:25:47.800 | right before she won the Fields Medal,

01:25:49.920 | which was probably the theorem of the decade.

01:25:54.600 | So she came up with a theorem right before she won the Fields Medal

01:25:57.920 | that was probably the theorem of the decade.

01:26:00.200 | That's a colleague of her talking about it.

01:26:02.560 | All right. So wait, we got a brilliant mathematician.

01:26:04.640 | You read this article, you see, you know, she immigrated to the US.

01:26:07.880 | She won the math Olympiad, which is hard to do.

01:26:10.880 | Smart person ends up getting the Fields Medal, a successful professor.

01:26:14.520 | I'm scrolling here because towards the bottom.

01:26:16.560 | We find out something about her work habits, and this is what I wanted to highlight.

01:26:21.040 | So I'm quoting here from the article.

01:26:24.560 | Ms. Garkhani likes to describe herself as slow.

01:26:28.560 | Unlike some mathematicians who solve problems with quick silver brilliance.

01:26:33.840 | She gravitates towards deep problems that she can chew on for years.

01:26:39.400 | Month or years later, you see very different aspects of a problem, she said.

01:26:44.040 | There are problems she has been thinking about for more than a decade.

01:26:46.920 | And still there's not much I can do about them.

01:26:51.120 | She is, in other words, a extreme example of slow productivity and action.

01:26:58.240 | She is willing to just sit here with problems,

01:27:01.720 | let them marinate, come back at them again and again, learning more about them.

01:27:06.840 | When you zoom in, let's say to the scale of a month.

01:27:09.720 | On a math professor taking this approach,

01:27:12.720 | she might seem tremendously unproductive.

01:27:15.880 | You didn't do anything this month. You didn't publish anything.

01:27:18.720 | You didn't solve any interesting new results or prove any interesting steps

01:27:23.080 | en route to a brilliant result.

01:27:24.880 | You just sat around and walked and thought and and scribbled on paper.

01:27:29.200 | And I even have something about that here.

01:27:31.920 | Later in the article, we find out that one of the ways that Ms.

01:27:34.720 | Garkhani likes to work is that she

01:27:36.360 | has huge pieces of paper on the floor and spends hours and hours

01:27:40.840 | drawing what looks like the same picture over and over.

01:27:45.440 | So it's like, what is this person doing?

01:27:47.000 | Just drawing pictures for hours and days.

01:27:49.400 | And you fast forward, I mean, zoom out rather to the scale of years.

01:27:54.520 | Brilliant results come out.

01:27:57.160 | Fields, medals are won.

01:27:59.080 | Fields are changed.

01:28:01.240 | So I had to see if I can find here we go.

01:28:03.480 | Here's an example.

01:28:05.160 | So there's a particular topic that Ms.

01:28:08.000 | Garkhani was working on for years and just marinating in it

01:28:11.840 | and reading everything and think about everything and going over it again

01:28:14.960 | and again, no visible progress happening. Right.

01:28:18.480 | In particular, this problem that she was working on has to do with

01:28:22.040 | what happens to a hyperbolic surface when its geometry is deformed

01:28:26.440 | using a mechanism akin to a strip like earthquake or strike slip earthquake.

01:28:30.560 | I have no idea what that means, but whatever.

01:28:32.000 | That's a hard problem. She's working for years.

01:28:34.560 | Completely unapproachable.

01:28:36.600 | She came up with after years of thinking about it.

01:28:39.160 | A one line proof that constructed a bridge

01:28:44.120 | between this completely opaque theory and another theory

01:28:46.880 | that's completely transparent and well understood.

01:28:49.040 | This is the type of thing that comes out of slow productivity.

01:28:51.800 | For years, it looks like you're drawing on paper and no one knows what you're doing.

01:28:55.480 | But what you're really doing is slowly accumulating more knowledge,

01:28:59.520 | more understanding, more connections, more possibilities for breakthroughs.

01:29:03.120 | And when the breakthrough comes, it can be stunning.

01:29:05.880 | So anyways, I just like that case study.

01:29:09.000 | I think we can we understand philosophy is better

01:29:11.360 | when we get to see them in an extreme instantiation.

01:29:13.960 | We get to see the idea pushed to an extreme.

01:29:15.600 | And this is a great example of a mathematician

01:29:18.280 | who's very slow in her approach to work.

01:29:20.960 | And that really worked.

01:29:21.920 | Other people in other fields can reap similar benefits.

01:29:25.320 | It's like we talked about earlier in the show about background activities

01:29:28.680 | versus projects.

01:29:30.120 | It's this slow but steady, relentless, but paced.

01:29:33.720 | I'm coming back to this again and again.

01:29:36.240 | I'm writing. I'm writing. I'm writing. I'm reading. I'm reading. I'm reading.

01:29:39.280 | I'm improving the podcast 10 percent every six months.

01:29:42.520 | And I'm just coming back to it again and again.

01:29:44.800 | It's that slow and steady, relentless, but paced approach

01:29:48.480 | that over time can build to the huge breakthrough.

01:29:52.360 | The show that suddenly becomes a massive hit.

01:29:55.880 | The writer who suddenly becomes a really respected award winning voice.

01:30:00.800 | Slow productivity is not just a more sustainable way to work.

01:30:04.040 | It's not just a rejection of hustle culture or repudiation

01:30:07.880 | of those who want you to be busy.

01:30:09.560 | It is in itself a very viable and very successful strategy for doing work

01:30:13.160 | that's so good that it can't be ignored.

01:30:15.960 | In this particular example, we see that idea in action.

01:30:19.320 | All right. Well, speaking of action, I think that's all the time

01:30:22.800 | we have for today's show.

01:30:24.320 | Thank you, everyone who contributed, whether it was their questions

01:30:27.920 | or their interesting stories.

01:30:29.920 | If you liked what you heard today, you'll like what you see.

01:30:33.720 | Videos of the show and clips, as well as videos about related topics

01:30:37.040 | can be found at YouTube.com/CalNewportMedia.

01:30:39.560 | We'll be back next week with a new episode.

01:30:42.000 | And until then, as always, stay deep.

01:30:44.320 | [MUSIC]

Ep. 234: Ambition Without Burnout

Chapters