Tal Wilkenfeld: Music, Guitar, Bass, Jeff Beck, Prince, and Leonard Cohen

00:00:00.000 | I am standing on the edge of the cliff the entire night.

00:00:04.700 | And if I mess something up, mess it up,

00:00:08.840 | what even is a mistake?

00:00:10.440 | But if I do a little clunker or whatever it is,

00:00:13.520 | it's like, so what?

00:00:15.260 | I wouldn't have played half the stuff that I'm playing

00:00:18.260 | if I wasn't constantly standing on the edge of the cliff,

00:00:21.080 | like wild.

00:00:22.360 | - Why are you standing on the edge of the cliff?

00:00:24.480 | - Because at the edge of the cliff is all possibilities.

00:00:28.700 | (air whooshing)

00:00:30.740 | - The following is a conversation with Tal Wilkenfeld,

00:00:34.180 | a singer songwriter, bassist, guitarist,

00:00:36.980 | and a true musician who has recorded and performed

00:00:40.700 | with many legendary artists, including Jeff Beck,

00:00:43.740 | Prince, Eric Clapton, Incubus, Herbie Hancock,

00:00:47.180 | Mick Jagger, Jackson Browne, Rod Stewart,

00:00:50.300 | David Gilmour, Pharrell, Hans Zimmer, and many, many more.

00:00:54.820 | This was a fun and fascinating conversation.

00:00:58.580 | This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.

00:01:00.460 | To support it, please check out our sponsors

00:01:02.540 | in the description.

00:01:03.820 | And now, dear friends, here's Tal Wilkenfeld.

00:01:07.500 | There's a legendary video of you playing with Jeff Beck.

00:01:11.380 | We're actually watching it in the background now.

00:01:13.860 | So for people who don't know,

00:01:14.980 | Jeff is one of the greatest guitarists ever.

00:01:19.240 | So you were playing with him at the 2007 Crossroads Festival

00:01:24.500 | and people should definitely watch that video.

00:01:27.700 | You were killing it on the bass.

00:01:29.980 | Look at that bass.

00:01:31.320 | (laughs)

00:01:33.300 | Were you scared?

00:01:34.220 | What was that experience like?

00:01:35.060 | Were you nervous?

00:01:35.900 | You don't look nervous.

00:01:37.180 | - Yeah, yeah, I wasn't nervous.

00:01:39.900 | I think that you can get an adrenaline rush before a stage,

00:01:43.900 | which is natural, but I think as soon as you bring fear

00:01:48.140 | to a bandstand, you're limiting yourself.

00:01:51.100 | You're kind of like walling yourself off from everyone else.

00:01:54.340 | If you're afraid, what is there to be afraid of?

00:01:57.940 | You must be afraid of making a mistake

00:02:00.900 | and therefore you're coming at it as a perfectionist

00:02:03.540 | and you can't come at music that way

00:02:06.020 | or it's not gonna be as expansive and vulnerable and true.

00:02:10.460 | So no, I was excited and passionate

00:02:15.460 | and having the best time.

00:02:20.300 | And also the fact that he gave me this solo.

00:02:25.300 | The context of this performance is that

00:02:28.900 | this was a guitar festival.

00:02:31.580 | It's one of the biggest guitar festivals in the world

00:02:33.700 | 'cause it's Eric Clapton's festival.

00:02:36.060 | And there's like 400 guitarists

00:02:38.540 | that are all playing solos all night.

00:02:40.900 | And we were like towards the end of the night.

00:02:43.380 | And I could tell Jeff got a kick out of,

00:02:47.780 | I'm not gonna solo on one of my most well-known songs,

00:02:52.300 | "Cosmoven and His Lovers."

00:02:53.260 | Well, Stevie Wonder wrote it,

00:02:54.460 | but people know Jeff for that song and his solo on it.

00:02:58.580 | It's like, I'm gonna give it to my bass player.

00:03:00.300 | And he did.

00:03:02.300 | And the fact that he's bowing,

00:03:04.820 | he didn't have to do that.

00:03:08.300 | - Well, you really stepped up there.

00:03:14.140 | - It just shows what a generous musician he is.

00:03:18.020 | And that's evident in his playing across the board.

00:03:20.620 | He is a generous, loving, open musician.

00:03:25.340 | He's not there for himself.

00:03:27.180 | He's there for the music.

00:03:28.860 | And he thought, well,

00:03:29.700 | this would be the perfect musical thing to do.

00:03:31.940 | And it kind of all started

00:03:35.620 | like when I went to audition for him,

00:03:37.500 | which was an interesting experience

00:03:41.460 | because I got food poisoning on the plane.

00:03:46.060 | And so like literally when the plane landed,

00:03:49.580 | I went straight into an ambulance,

00:03:51.260 | into the hospital overnight.

00:03:54.620 | The manager picked me up and I showed up at Jeff's door,

00:03:57.060 | which is like a three hour drive,

00:03:58.620 | like through windy country roads.

00:04:01.260 | And he answered the door and he's like,

00:04:03.220 | "Okay, you ready to play?"

00:04:05.220 | So we went upstairs and started like rattling off the set.

00:04:08.220 | And when it came to this song, "Cosmoven and His Lovers,"

00:04:10.780 | he just said solo.

00:04:12.700 | And he loved it and kept the solo in it.

00:04:16.740 | So that's kind of how,

00:04:17.580 | 'cause there was no bass solo

00:04:19.500 | before I was playing in his band.

00:04:21.740 | So this whole thing was kind of new.

00:04:24.020 | - So even with food poisoning, like you could step up.

00:04:27.180 | - Yeah.

00:04:28.380 | - That's just like what, instinct?

00:04:30.860 | - It's just being able to differentiate

00:04:32.380 | from like the body and from like expression music.

00:04:35.820 | - All right. - Yeah.

00:04:37.100 | - You know, it's interesting,

00:04:37.940 | you said fear walls you off from the other musicians.

00:04:40.740 | And what are you afraid of?

00:04:43.300 | You're afraid of making a mistake.

00:04:45.540 | You know, Beethoven said,

00:04:47.300 | "To play a wrong note is insignificant.

00:04:49.620 | "To play without passion is inexcusable."

00:04:52.140 | - Yeah.

00:04:52.980 | - Do you think the old man had a point?

00:04:54.860 | - Yeah.

00:04:56.020 | Different styles of music invite varying degrees of,

00:05:04.220 | I would say, uncertainty or unsafety

00:05:07.580 | in the way that people might perceive it.

00:05:10.740 | So for instance, like the tour that I was just on,

00:05:12.900 | like playing all my brother's songs,

00:05:15.020 | like I am standing on the edge of the cliff

00:05:18.460 | the entire night.

00:05:20.500 | And if I, you know, mess something up, mess it up,

00:05:24.460 | like what even is a mistake?

00:05:26.220 | But if I do like a little clunker or whatever it is,

00:05:29.300 | it's like, so what?

00:05:30.620 | Like I wouldn't have played half the stuff that I'm playing

00:05:34.020 | if I wasn't constantly standing on the edge of the cliff,

00:05:36.860 | like wild.

00:05:38.380 | And so I don't care about those few little things.

00:05:42.020 | I care about the overall expression.

00:05:44.820 | And then there's other gigs that, you know,

00:05:47.020 | for instance, if I got called for like a pop

00:05:49.820 | or a country session or a show,

00:05:52.300 | in those environments, they may want you to play safe.

00:05:58.620 | Like just play the part and play it

00:06:01.100 | with a great groove and time and great dynamics

00:06:04.140 | and don't really veer away from the part and stuff.

00:06:08.260 | And I've done plenty of those gigs too.

00:06:11.100 | It's just a different like hat you put on.

00:06:14.700 | - What do you get from the veering,

00:06:16.660 | from the veering off the beaten path?

00:06:18.700 | You just love it?

00:06:20.020 | Or is that gonna make the performance better?

00:06:23.500 | Like why are you standing on the edge of the cliff?

00:06:28.260 | - Because at the edge of the cliff is all possibilities

00:06:32.820 | and unknown.

00:06:35.220 | You don't know what's coming.

00:06:36.460 | And I love being there in the unknown.

00:06:39.780 | Otherwise it's just like, well, why are we doing this?

00:06:43.860 | Am I just like a clown on stage,

00:06:46.580 | like showing you my skills or what, you know,

00:06:50.300 | what I've studied in my bedroom?

00:06:51.820 | It's like, no, like I wanna be like pure expression

00:06:56.340 | happening right now and responding in real time

00:06:59.860 | to everything that's happening.

00:07:01.660 | And anytime I'm not doing that,

00:07:03.940 | it's like it's a waste of everybody's time.

00:07:06.460 | - Have you ever messed it up real bad?

00:07:09.220 | - Mess what up?

00:07:10.060 | - I mean, you know, comedians bomb,

00:07:12.660 | you're a big fan of comedy.

00:07:13.780 | - Yeah.

00:07:14.620 | - Have you ever bombed on stage?

00:07:16.060 | - Probably.

00:07:17.180 | I think it's all about recovery, you know,

00:07:20.660 | and the more times that you fall off the cliff,

00:07:23.660 | the quicker you know how to recover

00:07:26.060 | and the varying ways that you can recover

00:07:31.060 | to the point in which it's concealed so much

00:07:34.700 | that maybe a listener might not even know

00:07:37.460 | that you're recovering.

00:07:38.860 | - And eventually you learn to fly

00:07:39.980 | if you take that metaphor all the way off the cliff.

00:07:42.460 | You know, you learn, all right.

00:07:43.540 | - I remember one time when I was really young,

00:07:45.900 | well, not really young, but like when I was 21 or 22.

00:07:50.940 | - What is aging?

00:07:52.260 | - Yeah, exactly.

00:07:54.140 | But when I was first playing with Jeff Beck

00:07:56.660 | and we played at what I consider the best,

00:08:01.580 | the coolest jazz festival, it's Montreux Jazz.

00:08:05.460 | And like Miles played there, everyone played there

00:08:07.740 | and they have the best speaker system ever.

00:08:10.300 | I was excited for months.

00:08:12.460 | And the drummer Vinny was like practicing

00:08:15.420 | for like eight hours in the bus on the way there.

00:08:18.740 | And everyone was like on fire on stage.

00:08:21.380 | And I remember playing a note, just one note

00:08:25.940 | that I really didn't like.

00:08:28.060 | And I let it go in the moment on stage,

00:08:32.860 | but as soon as I got off stage, I was really sad.

00:08:37.380 | And so I sat like on this road case,

00:08:39.420 | everyone was out celebrating.

00:08:40.460 | I like sat on this road case with a sad face like,

00:08:43.380 | boo hoo.

00:08:44.220 | And then Claude Knobbs, like the owner of the,

00:08:47.060 | you know, the whole festival came up to me.

00:08:48.660 | He's like, "Dahl, what's wrong?"

00:08:51.660 | And I'm like, "I played a bad note."

00:08:54.220 | (laughing)

00:08:55.740 | I was such a child.

00:08:57.660 | And like he said all this wise stuff that, you know,

00:09:00.580 | Miles Davis had imparted to him

00:09:02.980 | and like it fully cheered me up.

00:09:05.620 | He's like, "Is there anything that would make you

00:09:08.100 | feel better?"

00:09:08.940 | And I was like, "Caviar."

00:09:11.340 | (laughing)

00:09:13.500 | The dude came back 10 minutes later with this huge thing.

00:09:18.100 | - Oh, wow.

00:09:18.940 | - It was a joke.

00:09:19.780 | It was a joke, but he actually brought me caviar.

00:09:22.580 | But anyway, that's the one time that I remember being sad

00:09:26.460 | about a performance.

00:09:28.060 | Now I'm just like, okay, whatever, like it's done.

00:09:30.100 | - Was it a physical slip of like the fingers

00:09:32.380 | or was it, did you intend to play that note?

00:09:34.900 | - That I can't remember.

00:09:37.820 | I can't remember if it was just a bad choice

00:09:40.060 | that sounded like a clangor or why it happened.

00:09:43.980 | It was so long ago,

00:09:44.820 | but I don't get depressed about that anymore.

00:09:48.140 | - That'd be funny if that was like your biggest

00:09:49.780 | and only regret in life is that note

00:09:51.580 | that haunted you in your dreams.

00:09:53.580 | - And then like, you know, like I'm on my deathbed

00:09:56.260 | and just everyone's just bringing me caviar.

00:09:58.020 | (laughing)

00:09:59.500 | - Joke went way too far.

00:10:00.860 | You talked about confidence somewhere.

00:10:03.900 | I don't remember where.

00:10:05.540 | So I wanna ask you about how much confidence it takes

00:10:07.500 | to be up there.

00:10:08.340 | You said something that Anthony Jackson told you

00:10:10.420 | as encouragement, a line that I really like that quote,

00:10:13.740 | "On your worst day, you're still a bad motherfucker."

00:10:17.100 | - That's actually a Steve Gadd quote.

00:10:20.220 | And Steve used to tell that to Anthony

00:10:22.340 | 'cause Anthony used to get real depressed

00:10:24.140 | if he did a wrong thing or not perfect thing.

00:10:27.140 | And Steve Gadd used to say this to Anthony Jackson.

00:10:30.220 | And then Anthony was my first bass mentor

00:10:33.540 | or just mentor in general.

00:10:35.100 | - For people who don't know, he's a legendary bassist.

00:10:37.100 | - He's a legendary bassist.

00:10:38.300 | And I started playing the bass when I was 17

00:10:42.140 | and I moved to New York and I met Anthony

00:10:45.380 | and he started mentoring me, but in a very not typical way.

00:10:48.620 | Like he would just sit in his car with me for hours

00:10:53.140 | and talk music.

00:10:55.580 | - You guys just listen to music and analyze it.

00:10:57.700 | - Exactly.

00:10:58.540 | And that was the best form of learning, I think.

00:11:01.780 | Just like, well, what do you perceive here?

00:11:03.860 | And well, I heard this and just discussing that.

00:11:07.260 | - Jazz usually or?

00:11:09.660 | - No, all styles of music.

00:11:12.260 | And yeah, he told me that story about on your worst day

00:11:16.180 | because like, yeah, even then, like when I was like 18, 19,

00:11:20.020 | I get sad sometimes about performances.

00:11:22.460 | Like I could have done this.

00:11:23.580 | It's like, I don't do that anymore, thankfully.

00:11:27.060 | Or I'd be miserable.

00:11:29.260 | - So you always kind of feel pretty good.

00:11:31.500 | - Yeah, yeah, now I do.

00:11:33.140 | Now it's just, I sense the body feeling fatigued,

00:11:37.980 | especially if it's a very long show,

00:11:39.660 | like the ones I just did with three hour shows

00:11:41.860 | and we did one to three hour sound checks.

00:11:44.540 | So that's a lot of physical activity every day.

00:11:47.140 | So I just feel the body being tired, like fatigued.

00:11:52.100 | The ears are fatigued.

00:11:54.460 | That's about it.

00:11:55.780 | I don't really reflect on the show much.

00:11:59.140 | - You're almost like from a third person perspective,

00:12:01.140 | feel the body get tired and just accept it.

00:12:04.980 | - Yeah, I don't want to identify with it

00:12:06.660 | 'cause then I'm tired, but I'm not tired.

00:12:09.860 | I'm usually like energized.

00:12:12.060 | - It's like with the food poisoning,

00:12:13.300 | the mind is still capable of creative genius,

00:12:16.900 | even if the body is gone, something like that.

00:12:20.300 | So no self-critical component

00:12:24.300 | to the way you see your performances anymore?

00:12:28.340 | - There is critique,

00:12:32.460 | but not in the way that it would diminish my sense of self.

00:12:37.460 | It's different.

00:12:38.940 | I can just kind of look at something and be like,

00:12:41.380 | okay, well, actually next time I'll do this choice

00:12:44.180 | and this choice maybe.

00:12:45.700 | Maybe this would serve the song better.

00:12:48.540 | Maybe this would help the groove feel more like this,

00:12:53.180 | but it's not like I suck because I did this

00:12:56.780 | and I'm a loser.

00:12:58.700 | - Do you think that's bad?

00:12:59.620 | 'Cause even when I asked that question,

00:13:01.540 | I had a self-critical thought,

00:13:04.140 | then why'd you ask that question?

00:13:05.660 | That's the wrong question.

00:13:06.900 | I always have the self-critical engine running.

00:13:09.780 | Is it necessarily a bad thing?

00:13:11.980 | - It depends if it's affecting you negatively.

00:13:14.460 | - What is negative anyway?

00:13:15.860 | - Well, if it brings your frequency down

00:13:19.420 | and you feel less joyful inside,

00:13:22.940 | unless you don't feel complete,

00:13:25.180 | you feel less than, less worthy of something,

00:13:29.260 | then you could call that bad

00:13:32.060 | if you aspire to not feel that way.

00:13:34.980 | - Yeah, I aspire to not feel that way in the big picture.

00:13:37.340 | But in the little picture,

00:13:39.060 | like there's a little pain is good.

00:13:41.780 | - That's fair.

00:13:42.940 | - So confidence, you seem like in this performance,

00:13:47.260 | you seem confident.

00:13:48.900 | You seem to be truly walking the bad motherfucker way of life.

00:13:52.900 | - I kind of, a word that I prefer over confidence is trust.

00:13:59.300 | Because I think with confidence is almost like

00:14:02.700 | there's a belief assigned to it

00:14:06.060 | that I am this thing that you believe in.

00:14:09.940 | Whereas trust is just simply knowing

00:14:14.220 | that you can get up there

00:14:15.660 | and handle whatever is gonna come your way.

00:14:18.460 | And it's more of an open feeling where it's like,

00:14:21.180 | yeah, I could do this, sure.

00:14:24.380 | But not like, I'm a bad motherfucker.

00:14:26.820 | Like, you know what I mean?

00:14:28.460 | There's a huge difference.

00:14:29.940 | 'Cause I've shared the stage with people

00:14:32.660 | who have a lot of confidence.

00:14:35.420 | And it can be like a brick wall,

00:14:37.540 | just like fear is a brick wall.

00:14:39.340 | - So the brick wall is a bad thing.

00:14:42.180 | Like the thing you have with Jeff here on stage-

00:14:44.380 | - Is not a brick wall.

00:14:45.220 | - There's no wall, there's chemistry.

00:14:47.180 | How can you explain that chemistry, the two you had?

00:14:49.860 | - Trust and lack of fear, yeah.

00:14:51.860 | And also I will say that each individual

00:14:55.980 | has developed likes and dislikes over their lifetime.

00:14:59.780 | And that can be like, in this case,

00:15:01.940 | we're just talking aesthetic likes and dislikes.

00:15:04.980 | So in this particular case,

00:15:07.420 | obviously our likes and dislikes are very much aligned

00:15:11.220 | such that the things I do to compliment him,

00:15:13.980 | he enjoys and vice versa.

00:15:15.900 | But it could be two very trusting, open musicians on stage

00:15:20.900 | that don't have walls up,

00:15:24.220 | but their choices are very different.

00:15:27.340 | And one person likes heavy metal

00:15:29.540 | and the other person likes classical.

00:15:31.060 | So it's gotta be both.

00:15:33.420 | - So you guys were good at like,

00:15:35.260 | yes, anding each other musically.

00:15:37.020 | - Definitely.

00:15:37.900 | - Is that where you're most at peace

00:15:42.900 | in a meditative way, is on stage?

00:15:44.740 | - It used to be that it would only be on stage.

00:15:49.260 | It started with that.

00:15:50.300 | That was almost like my way in to flow state

00:15:54.820 | and meditation was playing music.

00:15:57.980 | And then back in the day when I'd kind of crash after shows,

00:16:02.980 | I wanted to change that.

00:16:05.140 | I wanted to always feel like I'm in flow state.

00:16:08.980 | So. - Have you succeeded?

00:16:10.900 | - I've gotten a lot better.

00:16:13.520 | I'm still obviously on the journey, but yes.

00:16:17.060 | - So you meditate,

00:16:17.900 | I think you've said somewhere that you meditate

00:16:19.620 | before shows or just in general?

00:16:21.740 | - I meditate every day.

00:16:23.300 | When I'm on tour with my band,

00:16:26.900 | I ask that we all meditate together

00:16:28.900 | for at least 20 minutes.

00:16:30.860 | And I don't dictate which type of meditation.

00:16:33.700 | I don't put on a guided meditation

00:16:35.380 | 'cause everyone has their own thing they wanna do.

00:16:38.860 | Maybe someone might be praying in their head.

00:16:40.660 | It doesn't matter.

00:16:41.500 | It's just the idea that we all put our phones down

00:16:44.220 | and we all are in one room connecting

00:16:48.660 | energetically, spiritually,

00:16:50.140 | and just letting our lives go for a second.

00:16:55.140 | And then we walk straight on the stage

00:16:57.340 | and it's always really connected.

00:16:59.100 | And there were a couple of gigs

00:17:00.260 | where we ran out of time for that.

00:17:02.340 | And I could tell there was a major difference

00:17:05.460 | in the performance.

00:17:06.420 | - So it both connects you and centers you,

00:17:09.580 | all of those things.

00:17:11.180 | - Yeah, but then when I'm home, I love to meditate

00:17:13.940 | and I've tried various styles of meditation

00:17:18.220 | and studied various types of things.

00:17:21.700 | So I don't do just one thing.

00:17:25.060 | I kind of customize it depending on

00:17:27.220 | where I'm at in my life.

00:17:28.460 | - You and the world lost Jeff back a year ago.

00:17:33.040 | You told me you really miss him.

00:17:35.500 | How's the pain of losing Jeff change you?

00:17:39.620 | Maybe deepen your sense of the world?

00:17:41.820 | - You know, it's hard to accept

00:17:45.980 | that we won't create something musically again

00:17:50.540 | in this lifetime.

00:17:52.180 | But in terms of the grief,

00:17:58.420 | grief was easier for me

00:18:03.140 | because I went through a major grief period

00:18:07.180 | in 2016 and 17.

00:18:11.340 | And that was the first time I'd really gone through

00:18:15.220 | the process of grief

00:18:17.780 | like in a non-family situation,

00:18:23.020 | like with friends and mentors and people

00:18:25.300 | that I'd created with, which is different.

00:18:27.500 | It's a different kind of connection.

00:18:29.300 | When my grandparents died,

00:18:32.100 | it's like there was nothing left unsaid

00:18:36.500 | and I was at peace with what was happening.

00:18:39.980 | With this, when Prince died out of the blue

00:18:44.660 | in mid 2016, and then Leonard Cohen died in November,

00:18:49.660 | that just tore me to shreds

00:18:54.140 | because Leonard Cohen was not just someone

00:18:57.980 | that profoundly inspired me musically and lyrically,

00:19:02.900 | but spiritually, we had a very deep connection.

00:19:07.300 | And that was the basis of a lot of our conversation

00:19:11.580 | was spirituality.

00:19:14.100 | And so at that time,

00:19:16.540 | I felt like a piece of me went missing.

00:19:19.100 | And that was a very long process

00:19:24.340 | where I just stayed in my place

00:19:28.300 | and didn't wanna play a note of music.

00:19:31.300 | I kinda wanted to just get rid of all my stuff.

00:19:35.860 | So I had a friend come over and he's like,

00:19:40.140 | "You should just, why don't you come to the comedy store?"

00:19:43.100 | I'm like, "Comedy store?

00:19:45.020 | "What am I gonna go to some store and buy clown suits?

00:19:48.340 | "What are you talking about?

00:19:49.180 | "What's a comedy store?"

00:19:50.420 | He's like, "No, no, no, the comedy store,

00:19:52.380 | "the place where comedians go."

00:19:54.260 | I'm like, "Okay, well, I've never seen standup.

00:19:56.660 | "I've seen Seinfeld on TV.

00:19:59.300 | "That's the extent of my standup experience."

00:20:02.660 | So he took me to the comedy store

00:20:04.340 | and every single one of those comedians

00:20:08.020 | embraced me like I was family.

00:20:11.220 | It didn't even take a day.

00:20:13.020 | I was part of the family and I made 25 best friends.

00:20:18.020 | And I ended up throwing all my stuff in storage

00:20:21.940 | and finding a little room to stay in

00:20:25.260 | where I rented my gear out.

00:20:27.820 | And that was me, my rent paying was me loaning the gear

00:20:34.180 | 'cause I didn't want any responsibilities, financial.

00:20:37.700 | I just wanted to be completely free

00:20:41.580 | so that I could just process it

00:20:43.540 | and not feel like I had to commit to anything

00:20:45.820 | work-wise or creatively.

00:20:48.180 | I just wanted to unplug.

00:20:50.260 | And so this was a fun and very different way to unplug

00:20:53.380 | because previously I may have just gone to a monastery

00:20:56.820 | and spent weeks at a monastery or months.

00:21:00.140 | But in this case, I was like, "You know what?

00:21:02.460 | "This is a different kind of experience.

00:21:05.100 | "I'm gonna just hang out with comedians

00:21:07.620 | "and stay in this room."

00:21:09.340 | - With no responsibility really.

00:21:10.700 | - Yeah, other than to really deeply connect

00:21:14.340 | with this grief that I'm experiencing.

00:21:17.340 | I'm not going to negate it.

00:21:19.300 | I'm gonna really fully connect to it.

00:21:24.300 | And I did and it was tough.

00:21:26.980 | And then more people in 2017 were leaving,

00:21:31.660 | Greg Almond, Tom Petty.

00:21:32.780 | I mean, it was like, these are people that I,

00:21:35.340 | I worked with all these people

00:21:36.900 | and had great connections with them.

00:21:40.220 | And they were all going and the world was mourning

00:21:43.180 | the loss of these people because of everything

00:21:46.100 | that they'd given to the world.

00:21:48.460 | Like they'd changed the world's lives,

00:21:50.500 | not just mine 'cause I knew them personally.

00:21:53.380 | And so that was also complicated

00:21:56.140 | and why for me, it was interesting to be grieving

00:22:01.140 | the loss of these musicians with comedians.

00:22:04.620 | And I learned a lot.

00:22:06.380 | It changed my life 'cause I just learned to,

00:22:08.380 | I learned to laugh at absolutely anything, everything.

00:22:11.140 | I mean, my grandpa had a really great sense of humor too.

00:22:15.820 | My grandpa's a Holocaust survivor

00:22:17.660 | and like he could just kind of like laugh at anything.

00:22:19.900 | And like, so I already kind of have that in me,

00:22:23.060 | but being around all these comedians

00:22:25.380 | just kind of like exaggerated that for me.

00:22:27.660 | And that really changed things for me for the better.

00:22:30.380 | So then when Jeff Beck died, it was like,

00:22:33.580 | okay, I've got these tools.

00:22:34.940 | I know what this is.

00:22:37.020 | And I'm gonna go through it again.

00:22:39.860 | And I'm gonna be on tour with Incubus in two days.

00:22:44.260 | - Yeah.

00:22:45.220 | - And so Mike Dernt from Green Day, he called me up

00:22:49.700 | and he said, "Hey, like I know you're going through a lot."

00:22:52.060 | And I said, "Yeah, I don't even know what I'm gonna play.

00:22:54.780 | Like I really want a vintage jazz bass for this.

00:22:57.940 | And I only have a seventies one

00:22:59.620 | that I don't really think is appropriate.

00:23:01.060 | I really need a sixties one, blah, blah, blah."

00:23:03.540 | And Mike's like, "I'm gonna hook you up."

00:23:05.300 | He showed up to my place the next day

00:23:07.780 | with a truckload of old P basses and jazz basses

00:23:12.780 | and brought them all into my studio and I'm playing them.

00:23:16.580 | And then I pull one out of the case

00:23:19.100 | and it's Olympic white, just like Jeff Beck.

00:23:22.500 | And I play it and not only did I get goosebumps

00:23:27.500 | and started crying, but I looked over at Mike

00:23:30.060 | and same thing was happening.

00:23:32.180 | And he's like, "I guess Jeff might be happy about this."

00:23:37.180 | And he's like, "Well, I didn't wanna let this one go.

00:23:42.740 | I was just trying to cheer you up a bit

00:23:44.540 | and maybe loan it to you for the tour.

00:23:46.300 | But if you really want it, it's yours."

00:23:51.300 | And I was like, "Oh my God, this is like,

00:23:54.380 | like what a, like Mike Dernt is the nicest guy ever."

00:23:59.220 | So that happened, so that bass's name is Jeff

00:24:03.300 | and it's a white jazz bass

00:24:04.740 | and I played it on the Incubus Tour.

00:24:06.820 | But yeah, I do feel like I'm more equipped

00:24:09.300 | to handle grief now.

00:24:11.700 | - Tell me about the comedy store a little bit more.

00:24:14.140 | Do you think comedians and musicians

00:24:16.620 | in some deep fundamental way are made from the same cloth?

00:24:21.220 | Like are they spiritually connected somehow?

00:24:25.740 | - I think everyone's connected spiritually

00:24:28.540 | in the same way.

00:24:29.700 | So I think personality wise,

00:24:33.740 | comedians and musicians are quite different actually.

00:24:38.220 | - In what way?

00:24:39.060 | - Well, you'd have to subdivide even musicians

00:24:42.980 | into different categories too,

00:24:44.740 | because the thing that I appreciate about comedians

00:24:48.940 | is that you go to a restaurant with them

00:24:50.660 | and like all the observational humor of like,

00:24:53.380 | they'll notice everything and make you laugh about it.

00:24:57.020 | Which a really great songwriter does the same thing too.

00:25:00.460 | And my favorite lyricists, like Leonard Cohen,

00:25:03.860 | Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Warren Ziva,

00:25:07.260 | and they add comedy into their lyric.

00:25:10.380 | And like, so those types of people,

00:25:13.300 | I would liken to hanging out with a comedian.

00:25:16.700 | It's very different from like, say somebody

00:25:18.740 | that is an instrumental guitarist or something like that,

00:25:22.460 | that they're more focused on,

00:25:25.460 | whether it's like a kinesthetic thing

00:25:27.180 | or like a physical thing or whatever it is,

00:25:30.780 | they're not quite doing the observational thing

00:25:35.060 | in the same way.

00:25:36.020 | So I just appreciate like,

00:25:38.300 | my favorite thing to do is go out and laugh,

00:25:42.020 | especially 'cause like I can tend to be pretty analytical

00:25:44.820 | and be in my head.

00:25:45.980 | And so anything that just kind of lets me be in my heart

00:25:50.740 | and just enjoy life.

00:25:54.260 | - I think there's a photo of you

00:25:55.380 | with Dave Chappelle on stage.

00:25:57.380 | What was that about?

00:25:58.420 | - So right after Leonard Cohen passed away,

00:26:02.460 | the comedy store threw me a birthday party.

00:26:05.020 | It was this crazy lineup.

00:26:07.220 | And like, it was like, I'd play a song with my band

00:26:11.300 | and then Jackson Brown sat in and like sung a song.

00:26:16.660 | And then like Dave Chappelle came up and said some jokes.

00:26:19.340 | It was like one of my favorite nights ever.

00:26:22.420 | - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:26:23.420 | It was cool.

00:26:24.340 | It was a very healing birthday party.

00:26:27.660 | - Yeah, there's something magical about that place.

00:26:29.700 | - Yeah. - It's really special.

00:26:31.220 | - Yeah, well, the mothership has some magic to it too.

00:26:34.660 | It's really cool.

00:26:35.580 | It's different, totally different vibe,

00:26:37.420 | but like super awesome.

00:26:40.060 | - You've said that Leonard Cohen

00:26:42.940 | is a songwriting inspiration of yours.

00:26:46.220 | I saw you perform a song, "Chelsea Hotel," brilliantly

00:26:50.940 | on the internet.

00:26:53.220 | It's about, for people who don't know,

00:26:54.780 | is his love affair with Janet Joplin.

00:26:57.580 | How does that song make you feel?

00:27:01.380 | - Great, I love that song.

00:27:03.500 | - Which aspect, musically, the melancholy feeling,

00:27:07.380 | the hopeful feeling, the cocky feeling,

00:27:12.380 | all of it, like every single line

00:27:14.500 | has a different feeling to it, really.

00:27:16.300 | - Yeah, but as a whole piece, I appreciate it so much.

00:27:20.300 | I actually lived at the Chelsea Hotel.

00:27:23.260 | And when Leonard and I first met,

00:27:27.460 | that was one of the first things we talked about

00:27:30.460 | was that I lived there where all that stuff went down

00:27:35.460 | before they tore it apart.

00:27:37.620 | And yeah, it's just a beautiful song.

00:27:42.620 | - You know, what makes me sad, the way it ends,

00:27:47.620 | I don't mean to suggest that I loved you the best.

00:27:50.420 | I can't keep track of each fallen robin.

00:27:52.740 | I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel, that's all.

00:27:56.700 | I don't even think of you that often.

00:27:59.180 | You know that line, I don't even think of you that often,

00:28:01.500 | always breaks my heart for some reason.

00:28:04.620 | Like how ephemeral, how short-lasting

00:28:08.020 | certain love affairs can be.

00:28:11.300 | Just kind of like, huh.

00:28:13.120 | - Yeah.

00:28:14.900 | - Do you think he meant it?

00:28:15.720 | - I always think he's trying to convince himself of it.

00:28:19.200 | - It could be both or either, you know?

00:28:22.320 | I mean, that's the beautiful thing about poetry and lyric

00:28:24.520 | is that it's supposed to be open.

00:28:27.120 | - Yeah, I wonder if it's also open to him,

00:28:29.040 | depending on the day, you know?

00:28:30.480 | - Definitely, I mean, the thing that he taught me

00:28:32.960 | or his advice to me was when you're writing a song,

00:28:38.400 | look at it the next morning,

00:28:41.800 | like just first thing and read it,

00:28:44.080 | and then take a walk, smoke a joint, read it again.

00:28:49.080 | Go have a fight with your daughter, come back, read it again.

00:28:55.400 | Get drunk, read it again.

00:28:58.800 | Wait a week, read it again.

00:29:01.160 | Just so that, you know, from every state

00:29:03.920 | and every position, the wider the lens is gonna be

00:29:08.920 | from an audience perspective.

00:29:10.540 | You want things to mean multiple things.

00:29:14.120 | - So there's one line I read somewhere

00:29:17.160 | that he regrets putting in the song.

00:29:19.480 | So I've got to ask you about it, it's pretty edgy.

00:29:21.680 | It's about giving me head on the unmade bed.

00:29:25.320 | - Yeah.

00:29:26.160 | - You think that's a good line or bad line?

00:29:27.000 | - I think it's an amazing line.

00:29:28.360 | It's one of the best lines in the song.

00:29:29.960 | - Yeah, right?

00:29:30.800 | - When he put that song out,

00:29:32.360 | obviously he didn't regret it

00:29:33.780 | or he wouldn't have put that lyric in the song.

00:29:36.680 | I think what happened was that eventually word got out

00:29:41.200 | either from him or from somebody else

00:29:43.000 | that the song was about Janis Joplin.

00:29:45.160 | - Yes.

00:29:46.000 | - And so at that point, he regretted the indiscretion.

00:29:50.200 | So it wasn't that he regretted how great the line was.

00:29:53.600 | It was just, you know, the privacy factor.

00:29:57.400 | But then again, Leonard's known for rewriting his lyrics.

00:30:02.400 | In his live shows, you'll see a bunch of songs

00:30:05.040 | where it's like new lyrics.

00:30:06.880 | And he didn't do it 'cause he didn't like the old lyrics.

00:30:09.440 | He just did it because he could, 'cause he's Leonard.

00:30:13.200 | And it's like, why not have fun with words

00:30:14.720 | the way musicians have fun, you know,

00:30:16.600 | improvising solos on stage.

00:30:19.800 | And he could have changed that line in "Chelsea Hotel"

00:30:22.960 | after in retrospect, and he never did.

00:30:25.920 | - I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel.

00:30:27.680 | You were talking so brave and so sweet,

00:30:30.440 | giving me head on the unmade bed

00:30:32.960 | while the limousines wait in the street.

00:30:35.360 | - It's so powerful.

00:30:36.560 | - It's a powerful line.

00:30:37.400 | It just kind of shocks you.

00:30:39.000 | - Well, that's what's so great about it.

00:30:41.600 | Yeah.

00:30:42.440 | - But also heartbreaking 'cause it doesn't last.

00:30:46.880 | Especially, actually to me, it adds more meaning

00:30:48.720 | once you know it's Janis Joplin.

00:30:51.000 | It's like, okay, these two stars kind of collided for a time.

00:30:54.600 | - Yeah, but why is it heartbreaking?

00:30:57.280 | It could also be just beautiful

00:30:58.640 | that they had a little fling.

00:31:00.680 | - Yeah, everything's beautiful.

00:31:02.800 | - Thank you.

00:31:03.640 | - Even the dark stuff.

00:31:04.800 | What's not beautiful?

00:31:05.980 | Everything is beautiful.

00:31:08.640 | - If you look long enough and deeply enough.

00:31:11.720 | What were we saying?

00:31:13.920 | Oh, what do you think about "Hallelujah"?

00:31:16.840 | Like, what do you think about the different songs of his?

00:31:20.080 | And why'd you choose Chelsea Hotel to perform?

00:31:22.360 | - Because I lived there and it was like,

00:31:24.720 | it meant something to me to sing that song.

00:31:28.920 | And actually, when I put that song out on YouTube,

00:31:33.720 | that's when he sent me an email.

00:31:35.000 | He's like, "Hey, do you wanna come over?"

00:31:37.080 | - Nice.

00:31:38.120 | So this is how you guys connected.

00:31:39.600 | - No, we met in a rehearsal studio.

00:31:42.400 | I ended up watching their whole rehearsal

00:31:44.200 | and sitting there next to Roshi,

00:31:46.480 | his like 105-year-old monk, which was really great.

00:31:51.480 | I remember when I was like shaking his hand.

00:31:54.960 | So I was like, it was just me and Roshi on the couch

00:31:57.440 | watching Leonard with his band.

00:31:59.560 | And we're shaking hands and he grips my hand like this,

00:32:03.200 | so it like doesn't let it go.

00:32:04.880 | And he said, he looked at my eyes and he said,

00:32:07.280 | "Where are you?"

00:32:08.920 | And I said, "In the handshake."

00:32:11.640 | Yes.

00:32:12.480 | - Wow, you passed the test.

00:32:15.800 | - Passed the Roshi test.

00:32:17.560 | And then what's funny was that the next thing

00:32:19.760 | that happened about five minutes later

00:32:21.720 | was Leonard Cohen got down on his knees

00:32:23.920 | and opened up a jar, I'm not kidding you, of caviar.

00:32:27.240 | This is not a callback.

00:32:28.680 | - Well, it is in a way.

00:32:30.040 | - I know, I know.

00:32:30.880 | - In a deep, fundamental way.

00:32:32.080 | - He started feeding the monk caviar.

00:32:34.040 | - Yeah.

00:32:34.880 | - And that healed my Montreux Jazz Festival

00:32:37.920 | sadness forever.

00:32:39.840 | The end.

00:32:41.080 | - Do you think there's a kind of like weird,

00:32:43.320 | like there's a sense of humor to it all somehow?

00:32:47.120 | Like, why does that happen?

00:32:48.760 | Why does that happen?

00:32:50.060 | Why stuff like that happens?

00:32:53.280 | Or that the Jeff Bass speaks to you?

00:32:57.080 | - Why do we need to know?

00:32:59.160 | - You believe in that stuff?

00:33:00.400 | - In what stuff?

00:33:01.280 | - That there's a rhyme to the whole thing

00:33:03.960 | somehow, like there's a frequency to which

00:33:07.240 | magical things of that nature can happen.

00:33:11.280 | - I'm divided about that answer

00:33:23.480 | because I think just things are flowing.

00:33:28.120 | I don't think anything's kind of like planned out.

00:33:32.600 | Like through time, it's like an orchestra playing

00:33:36.840 | of different experiences and circumstances

00:33:38.840 | that are somehow connected.

00:33:40.600 | - I think everything's connected, so yes.

00:33:43.800 | - But predetermined means like--

00:33:45.360 | - I don't believe in that predetermined stuff necessarily,

00:33:49.360 | which is different from whatever your previous karma is.

00:33:54.360 | And karma's a whole other kind of conversation.

00:33:57.440 | I don't mean karma as in like good karma, bad karma,

00:34:00.160 | just karma meaning the collection of things

00:34:03.880 | you've acquired over this lifetime or other lifetimes.

00:34:07.760 | Just whatever that is is going to influence your future.

00:34:12.760 | - Well, you had a really interesting trajectory through life.

00:34:16.800 | Maybe I just read it that way

00:34:19.280 | because I've had a lot of stuff happen to me

00:34:21.120 | that's like lucky, feels lucky.

00:34:24.520 | And sometimes I wonder like, huh?

00:34:26.160 | This is weird.

00:34:28.640 | It does feel like the universe just kind of

00:34:31.000 | throws stuff at you with a chuckle.

00:34:33.540 | I don't know, not you, the proverbial you.

00:34:37.400 | - One, yeah.

00:34:39.160 | - You said you sometimes watch classic movies

00:34:42.200 | to inspire your songwriting

00:34:43.920 | and you mentioned watching "Taxi Driver."

00:34:46.040 | I love that movie.

00:34:48.000 | And I think you mentioned that you wrote a love song

00:34:51.600 | based on that movie.

00:34:53.120 | So Travis Bickle, for people who don't know,

00:34:55.400 | is a taxi driver.

00:34:58.000 | And he's deeply lonely.

00:35:00.040 | What do you think about that kind of loneliness?

00:35:02.360 | - I think that loneliness is a product

00:35:05.440 | of feeling separate from the world

00:35:08.280 | and separate from others.

00:35:12.120 | And that the less you experience that separation,

00:35:16.760 | the less you'll feel lonely.

00:35:19.080 | - How often have you felt lonely in this way?

00:35:22.680 | Separated from the rest of the world?

00:35:25.360 | - It's less and less every single year.

00:35:29.000 | 'Cause I work very hard at it.

00:35:34.880 | - Feeling a part of the world?

00:35:37.000 | - Yeah, just meditating and studying scriptures.

00:35:40.560 | - Don't you think that, I mean,

00:35:41.600 | isn't there a fundamental loneliness to human experience?

00:35:44.640 | Just-- - In what sense?

00:35:46.720 | - That all the struggles, all the suffering you experience

00:35:49.360 | is really experienced by you alone?

00:35:51.840 | - Is it?

00:35:53.120 | - Maybe at the very bottom it's not.

00:35:55.120 | - It's kind of all the same stuff.

00:35:57.200 | - You didn't feel alone in 2016, 2017?

00:36:02.000 | - I felt like I lost a piece of myself

00:36:05.840 | that I had given to somebody else.

00:36:08.600 | And I feel like people feel that in romantic exchanges,

00:36:12.600 | whether it's long-term, short-term.

00:36:16.480 | You give a piece of yourself,

00:36:19.320 | and then if that person dies

00:36:21.080 | or you break up with that person,

00:36:23.200 | you feel like you've lost that piece of yourself,

00:36:26.280 | which I feel like is a very different experience

00:36:28.280 | than if you just are opening yourself

00:36:31.240 | rather than giving a piece of yourself.

00:36:33.720 | You're just opening yourself to somebody or something.

00:36:37.880 | - So opening is fundamentally not a lonely experience?

00:36:42.920 | - Mm-mm, no, it's a loving experience.

00:36:45.560 | - And then losing a piece of yourself can be?

00:36:50.240 | - Yeah, 'cause you can't really,

00:36:51.320 | you can't lose a piece of yourself

00:36:52.880 | if you are the same self as every other self.

00:36:57.520 | - Right, right, so if you see yourself

00:36:59.160 | as together with everybody, then there's no losing.

00:37:01.880 | - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah.

00:37:04.560 | It's a beautiful way to look at it.

00:37:06.080 | You said that there's something healing

00:37:08.520 | about being in an empty hotel room

00:37:11.120 | with no attachments except your suitcase.

00:37:13.600 | You know, a lot of people will talk about hotel rooms

00:37:15.560 | being a fundamentally lonely experience,

00:37:20.720 | but you're saying it's healing.

00:37:23.760 | - Yeah, 'cause I just get to sit there

00:37:26.360 | and not worry about all this stuff,

00:37:28.320 | these meaningless attachments.

00:37:31.640 | I've got my suitcase with my necessities,

00:37:34.280 | or my three suitcases sometimes. (laughs)

00:37:37.600 | And I can just sit there and meditate

00:37:41.400 | and just be with myself, and it's so awesome.

00:37:46.240 | And usually, like, you plan your touring for,

00:37:48.760 | like, you know, you kind of get the business aspect

00:37:52.480 | of things taken care of in advance,

00:37:54.080 | so you can kind of just really be flowing day to day

00:37:57.120 | on a tour, and it's a great feeling.

00:38:00.640 | It's funny because this last tour that I did,

00:38:03.160 | we didn't have hotels every night.

00:38:05.240 | We had hotels maybe like once a week,

00:38:07.800 | and I hadn't done that before.

00:38:11.920 | Usually, I'm frequently in hotels,

00:38:15.600 | so I didn't get that space

00:38:17.280 | that I'm really used to getting.

00:38:18.920 | - You missed them.

00:38:20.400 | - I very much missed it and had to be very creative.

00:38:23.800 | And I ended up, like, going into the back lounge

00:38:28.800 | when everyone was asleep and, like, meditating back there,

00:38:33.360 | or, like, before everyone woke up.

00:38:35.320 | And I actually, like, joined,

00:38:39.120 | there was, like, an online meditation retreat

00:38:41.640 | that was happening.

00:38:42.480 | It was, like, 12 hours a day of silent meditations

00:38:46.200 | that happens once a year,

00:38:47.320 | and I love this particular group of people.

00:38:51.800 | And they knew I was on tour,

00:38:52.960 | so they're like, "Just join when you can."

00:38:55.040 | And so I was on the tour doing the meditation retreat

00:38:57.720 | at the same time.

00:38:58.560 | It was so fun.

00:38:59.840 | It was so fun because I was, like, in the back lounge.

00:39:02.920 | The bus is, like, moving around like this,

00:39:04.720 | and my laptop, the Zoom is like, "Zoom, zoom."

00:39:07.200 | And I'm just, like, sitting, like, meditating.

00:39:09.720 | It was like, yeah, this is the shit.

00:39:12.320 | - Silence.

00:39:13.160 | So they're all connected through Zoom

00:39:14.240 | and just doing silent 12 hours a day?

00:39:15.880 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:39:16.920 | - That's cool.

00:39:17.760 | - These particular retreats that I started doing,

00:39:20.800 | it's not straight silent.

00:39:22.720 | There are, you know,

00:39:23.880 | silence sits every hour for 50 minutes,

00:39:27.080 | and then there's some talks.

00:39:29.320 | And, like, these people that I've been working with

00:39:32.200 | are really cool because they're integrating

00:39:36.640 | spiral dynamics into zen,

00:39:40.680 | and it's, like, the coolest combination.

00:39:43.880 | - What's spiral dynamics?

00:39:45.120 | Like, Ken Wilber, do you know Ken Wilber?

00:39:47.960 | Integral theory?

00:39:49.280 | - Yes, can you explain a little bit?

00:39:50.920 | So I vaguely know of him because of kind of this notion

00:39:54.520 | that everything is one,

00:39:59.000 | like, everything is integrated,

00:40:00.200 | that every field has truths and falsehoods,

00:40:04.440 | and we should integrate the truths.

00:40:06.880 | - Yeah, it's hard to explain how it applies

00:40:10.760 | to this type of meditation

00:40:13.240 | because it's in the guided parts of the meditation

00:40:18.160 | that this whole, like, holonic theory is, like, brought in

00:40:21.800 | about, like, transcending and including

00:40:25.280 | every aspect of your being.

00:40:28.680 | Because he talks about, like, levels of development

00:40:32.680 | and, like, in consciousness

00:40:35.600 | and how, like, this applies to, like,

00:40:37.880 | every single religion or non-religion

00:40:41.440 | that there are these levels of development

00:40:44.000 | that go all the way up to enlightenment.

00:40:48.320 | No matter what you start off with,

00:40:50.640 | it could be, you know, Christianity, Buddhism, Vedanta,

00:40:54.800 | doesn't matter, like, anything.

00:40:57.360 | Then I just like, I like it when everything is,

00:41:00.200 | and everyone is taken into account.

00:41:02.160 | It doesn't matter where you're coming from,

00:41:03.840 | that there is a way to be self-realized, self-actualized.

00:41:07.880 | There are self-actualized beings from all walks of life

00:41:12.120 | with very, very different paths.

00:41:13.560 | There's no one path.

00:41:15.640 | I mean, in this particular retreat I do,

00:41:18.080 | there's, like, a lot of silent sits,

00:41:19.800 | and then there's some guided meditations.

00:41:22.000 | But I've tried a lot of different avenues,

00:41:27.520 | and they're all great.

00:41:28.920 | So I wouldn't just say, "Just try this one thing."

00:41:31.040 | Like, I've studied, like, the Upanishads,

00:41:33.320 | like, with Vedanta teachers

00:41:34.640 | and, like, gone through those texts for months and months

00:41:37.560 | and stayed at monasteries,

00:41:38.720 | and, like, how they break it down

00:41:41.280 | makes total sense to my mind and heart,

00:41:44.080 | and, like, my, more importantly than my mind,

00:41:46.520 | like, my inner knowing, like, it resonates.

00:41:49.320 | - Inner knowing.

00:41:50.720 | - Yeah, because, like, your mind is, like, the thinking tool.

00:41:55.320 | Like, it's not you.

00:41:56.880 | You're not your mind.

00:41:58.080 | You're not your thoughts.

00:41:59.520 | You're not your body, you know?

00:42:01.520 | So it's, like, just the you.

00:42:04.520 | Like, that knowing that you have,

00:42:06.680 | that's kind of, when something resonates there,

00:42:09.760 | that's usually when you go with something.

00:42:12.400 | - What is living in a monastery like?

00:42:14.320 | - It's the best.

00:42:15.480 | - What are we talking about?

00:42:16.600 | Like, what--

00:42:17.440 | - It's just an empty room with, like, a tiny single bed

00:42:20.640 | and a sheet and a pillow, and that's it.

00:42:22.440 | - That's it.

00:42:23.280 | - You have to eat the same thing as everyone.

00:42:25.480 | - What's the food like?

00:42:26.440 | What is it?

00:42:27.600 | - Very plain, cheap, basic food,

00:42:30.920 | which is, you know, funny for someone like me

00:42:33.000 | because I'm pretty particular about my diet.

00:42:36.800 | - You brought over, like, 20 different ingredients.

00:42:40.320 | - Yeah.

00:42:42.720 | - So what was the, like,

00:42:44.480 | day in the life of Tal at a monastery?

00:42:47.320 | - You wake up at 5 a.m. to the bell,

00:42:51.720 | and you go and meditate, like, constantly,

00:42:56.720 | till bedtime, other than two meals.

00:43:00.200 | - How are you sitting?

00:43:01.560 | Are you in a group?

00:43:02.720 | Is there other people there?

00:43:04.640 | And you're just sitting there?

00:43:06.160 | - Well, if you're talking about the Zen monastery,

00:43:08.440 | 'cause I stayed at a Zen monastery,

00:43:10.240 | and I did a thing with that,

00:43:13.920 | the guy was telling you about that kind of,

00:43:16.280 | the integral Zen thing,

00:43:18.080 | where he uses Ken Wilber's work in combination with Zen.

00:43:22.880 | That's a little bit different 'cause he does talks.

00:43:25.280 | We talk about things.

00:43:26.560 | And that's very separate from the monastery,

00:43:30.680 | like the Vedanta monasteries I've stayed at,

00:43:33.200 | which there's very little meditation

00:43:36.520 | in terms of sitting silently.

00:43:39.640 | Instead, we are meditating on the scriptures,

00:43:42.240 | like the Upanishads, and we're, like, diving into that.

00:43:46.760 | - What were the differences,

00:43:47.960 | the takeaways from the experiences,

00:43:50.200 | the two different, the integral one

00:43:51.680 | and the meditating on scriptures?

00:43:56.280 | - They're both incredibly,

00:43:58.760 | have been incredibly helpful to me

00:44:01.120 | because the Vedanta,

00:44:03.600 | anytime I go into my head about something,

00:44:10.080 | the answer is there based on this knowledge.

00:44:15.080 | And with the Zen monastery, it's like,

00:44:19.880 | you just gotta put your butt in the seat and sit and wait,

00:44:24.720 | and maybe something will happen, maybe it won't,

00:44:27.000 | but just keep sitting.

00:44:28.400 | And it's very disciplined, and you go through a lot.

00:44:33.400 | Your body's purging a lot.

00:44:35.800 | There's a lot, and you don't necessarily have the answers

00:44:40.120 | as to what is happening.

00:44:42.080 | And so I think for somebody like me, I need both.

00:44:46.640 | I need to be in a place where there's complete uncertainty,

00:44:49.600 | but complete discipline,

00:44:51.560 | and just doing the regimented thing.

00:44:56.040 | And then there's the me that feels very satisfied

00:44:59.480 | from an analytical standpoint,

00:45:02.240 | understanding what's happening,

00:45:04.160 | like what is the gross and the subtle body,

00:45:06.680 | and I wanna understand these things

00:45:09.440 | about what it is to be a human.

00:45:12.080 | So I like 'em both.

00:45:15.080 | - Understand what it means to be a human.

00:45:16.440 | So that, like, having that patience

00:45:18.840 | and just sitting with yourself helps you do that?

00:45:22.040 | - Yes.

00:45:23.920 | More so like the analysis part.

00:45:26.320 | - Oh, so the analysis, the actual, okay, got it.

00:45:29.000 | - But sitting with yourself, there's no better education

00:45:32.440 | of, like, facing every demon,

00:45:35.280 | and it's all gonna come out, and it's not gonna be pretty.

00:45:39.440 | But then there's things that happen on the other side of it

00:45:43.400 | that are so profound.

00:45:45.360 | - Have you met most of your demons?

00:45:48.240 | - I've met the demons that have come out.

00:45:50.880 | - Oh, there may be more.

00:45:51.800 | - Who knows, yeah.

00:45:52.640 | - Okay, well, to be continued.

00:45:54.800 | What, since I think I heard you say

00:46:01.080 | that you wrote a love song after "Taxi Driver,"

00:46:03.440 | what kind of love songs do you write more of?

00:46:07.520 | Broken, so you're a songwriter first,

00:46:10.920 | for people who don't know.

00:46:11.760 | They might think you're primarily a bassist, but you're--

00:46:14.520 | - But they're wrong!

00:46:16.080 | - So do you write mostly broken heart ones,

00:46:18.640 | or hopeful love songs, in love songs,

00:46:23.320 | about to be in love songs, soon to fall in love songs?

00:46:26.320 | - Well, the last album I put out

00:46:29.440 | is pretty self-explanatory as to what that is.

00:46:31.760 | - A lot of pain, that one?

00:46:34.880 | - There was, yeah.

00:46:35.840 | Some of it was storytelling,

00:46:40.320 | and some of it was real experience,

00:46:42.760 | and it's always a combination of things.

00:46:46.040 | Like, I serve the song,

00:46:48.640 | so sometimes you use your own life experience

00:46:53.640 | to tell a song, and sometimes you may watch a movie,

00:46:58.520 | and part of that script merges with your own experience,

00:47:03.120 | and that tells the right story

00:47:05.200 | for the point you're trying to make in the song.

00:47:07.880 | So it varies from song to song,

00:47:10.560 | like in terms of how, what a biographical it is.

00:47:14.240 | - Yeah, I was at the end of "Taxi Driver"

00:47:16.840 | when, what's her name, Betsy,

00:47:19.800 | because Travis becomes a hero,

00:47:21.360 | she tries to get with him, and he rejects her.

00:47:23.920 | Also, that was powerful.

00:47:27.360 | - My favorite love songs are the ones

00:47:30.800 | where you're not sure it's about romantic love,

00:47:35.800 | or love of God, or love of life,

00:47:40.080 | or just pure, just love.

00:47:43.880 | Like, I was thinking George Harrison writes songs like that,

00:47:47.200 | like "What is Life?"

00:47:48.520 | Or like Bob Dylan's song that George Harrison covered,

00:47:52.480 | "If Not for You."

00:47:54.160 | - Yeah, just grateful, grateful for his love.

00:47:56.600 | - Right, right, that's kind of like where,

00:47:59.560 | well, what I'm experiencing now,

00:48:01.360 | and so who knows what'll end up coming out, but.

00:48:05.720 | - Do you have been writing this kind of?

00:48:07.840 | - Yeah, I've been writing.

00:48:09.360 | - A little bit?

00:48:10.200 | - I don't have an intention of putting something out

00:48:13.000 | in any particular time frame,

00:48:15.440 | but I'm just writing and letting things flow.

00:48:19.960 | And yeah, there's a bunch of Leonard Cohen songs, too,

00:48:24.960 | where you're like, there's so many ways

00:48:29.080 | to interpret this song, and there's so many ways.

00:48:33.400 | I just love songs that aren't so specifically

00:48:37.040 | about one thing.

00:48:38.600 | - You know, I really love the song,

00:48:41.120 | "To Play It, To Listen to, Wonderful Tonight"

00:48:43.160 | by Eric Clapton, and I thought it was pretty straightforward.

00:48:46.480 | And then I had a conversation with Eric Weinstein,

00:48:49.800 | who's a mutual friend of ours,

00:48:52.040 | and he told me it's not about what I thought it's about.

00:48:54.720 | - Oh yeah, what did he say?

00:48:56.120 | - It's a more complicated story.

00:48:59.920 | It's actually a man, so "Wonderful Tonight"

00:49:04.360 | is a story about a man just finding his wife beautiful

00:49:09.640 | and appreciating it throughout.

00:49:11.280 | But he said it was actually a man missing his wife,

00:49:15.520 | that he's imagining that she's lost

00:49:19.520 | because of the decisions he's made in his life.

00:49:22.560 | So it's pain.

00:49:24.440 | And he had a long, beautiful Eric Weinstein-like explanation

00:49:27.720 | of why. - I love this.

00:49:29.600 | - Have you and Eric played music?

00:49:32.000 | - No, we just hung out and had very long conversations

00:49:35.400 | about everything.

00:49:37.520 | - He's a bit of a musician, you know?

00:49:38.920 | - Yeah.

00:49:39.760 | - Okay, you picked up the guitar when you were 14.

00:49:43.480 | Let's go back.

00:49:45.000 | And one interesting thing that just jumped out at me

00:49:47.480 | is you said you learned how to practice in your head

00:49:50.560 | because you only had 30 minutes.

00:49:52.640 | Your parents would only let you practice for 30 minutes.

00:49:55.920 | I read somewhere that Coltrane did the same.

00:49:58.360 | He was not the practice part,

00:50:00.360 | but he was able to play instruments in his head

00:50:02.720 | as a way to think through different lines,

00:50:07.320 | different musical thoughts, that kind of stuff.

00:50:10.320 | I just, maybe, can you tell the story of that?

00:50:14.320 | - Yeah, I just grew up in a environment

00:50:17.120 | that was focused on academia.

00:50:20.840 | And I fell in love with guitar

00:50:23.920 | and really just wanted the focus to be that.

00:50:27.360 | So my limit was 30 minutes a day for,

00:50:31.400 | I don't even remember how many times a week.

00:50:33.920 | Might've been every day or five days a week, whatever.

00:50:36.520 | - So your parents didn't want you to play more than that?

00:50:39.600 | - No.

00:50:40.720 | And so I just learned how to visualize

00:50:43.880 | the fretboard in my head,

00:50:45.040 | and I'd practice all day in my head.

00:50:47.800 | It's kind of like, you know,

00:50:49.280 | the "Queen's Gambit," the TV show with Anya Taylor-Joy,

00:50:53.920 | and she just like- - On the ceiling.

00:50:54.760 | - Sits it on the ceiling.

00:50:55.600 | I used to do that with the fretboard.

00:50:57.680 | Yeah, just practice.

00:50:59.040 | And I actually recommend it to every musician

00:51:01.840 | because if you're just practicing here,

00:51:06.480 | you don't know what is more dominant necessarily.

00:51:10.800 | Is it this or is it your motor skills?

00:51:13.720 | If you just take that away and do it here,

00:51:16.960 | you know you've got it.

00:51:18.720 | So I'm glad that that happened

00:51:21.760 | and that I learned how to do that.

00:51:24.040 | And in terms of learning fast,

00:51:26.640 | 'cause I had to learn how to,

00:51:28.720 | well, I had to try to absorb a lot of information

00:51:31.120 | in a short amount of time when I did have the instrument,

00:51:34.480 | I kind of would do things in bursts,

00:51:39.480 | like even in that half an hour,

00:51:41.640 | I would just play for a couple minutes

00:51:43.600 | and then I'd stop for like a minute.

00:51:45.600 | And then I'd do it again,

00:51:47.280 | and I noticed there was a huge difference

00:51:49.680 | between the first time and the second time,

00:51:51.880 | whereas if I just kept repeating stuff,

00:51:53.960 | it would be much slower.

00:51:56.120 | - Well, what did you do in that minute?

00:51:58.480 | - Just hang out.

00:52:00.320 | - Just integrate?

00:52:01.560 | - Yeah, it's like my brain was telling me,

00:52:04.120 | like, just chill out for a sec,

00:52:06.160 | that's enough information,

00:52:07.160 | let me take a second to integrate that.

00:52:09.920 | That's at least what it felt like to me.

00:52:12.320 | And the most hilarious thing happened a couple months ago.

00:52:16.680 | I know you're friends with Andrew Huberman.

00:52:18.840 | So he put out some clip,

00:52:21.400 | which was a part of one of his podcasts about learning.

00:52:24.800 | And he said that there was some research done

00:52:27.600 | on learning fast,

00:52:29.640 | and that if you practice something

00:52:33.960 | for a minute or so,

00:52:36.480 | and then you let your brain rest for 30 seconds or a minute,

00:52:41.480 | that in that 30 seconds or a minute,

00:52:45.440 | your brain does the repetition 20 to 30 times faster

00:52:50.160 | and in reverse.

00:52:51.520 | And I was like, whoa, that's so cool,

00:52:53.600 | 'cause that's what I used to do when I was a kid.

00:52:55.640 | Now there's science that proves that,

00:52:57.760 | which is really cool for musicians to know

00:53:00.960 | that that's a good way to practice efficiently.

00:53:04.440 | 'Cause you know, like some musicians,

00:53:05.920 | they're like practicing for six, seven, eight hours a day.

00:53:09.240 | I've never done that.

00:53:10.200 | I've never practiced more than an hour a day, even now.

00:53:12.760 | Like I've just, just that's my technique and it works.

00:53:17.760 | - Are you also practicing in your head sometimes?

00:53:20.360 | - Now I'm not practicing as much.

00:53:22.680 | I'm more always writing songs in my head.

00:53:24.880 | So that's why I like silence.

00:53:26.680 | That's why I love being in the empty hotel room

00:53:29.240 | and being alone or, you know,

00:53:32.120 | songs come to me while I'm showering

00:53:33.960 | or walking around doing the dishes.

00:53:37.160 | Or occasionally when I'm hanging out with friends

00:53:40.280 | or like comedians and people just like say shit

00:53:43.000 | and I'll be like, that's a cool line.

00:53:44.880 | I'm just like jotting down my phone.

00:53:46.280 | - So it's not always musical, it's sometimes lyrical.

00:53:48.560 | - It's more lyrical than musical now.

00:53:50.600 | Because it's like, for me, it's like,

00:53:53.560 | well, there's so much music in the world.

00:53:57.160 | If I'm going to write a song,

00:53:59.240 | I want the song to be about something interesting.

00:54:02.800 | And so, yeah, the words matter to me.

00:54:07.040 | - Yeah, and the right work and it has so much power.

00:54:11.160 | It's crazy.

00:54:12.000 | Like we said, with Leonard Cohen.

00:54:14.560 | And then they're often simple.

00:54:16.560 | The really powerful ones are simple.

00:54:17.960 | - And like when you mentioned Hallelujah,

00:54:19.520 | you know, he wrote like 80 verses to Hallelujah

00:54:21.880 | before he narrowed it down to like four.

00:54:23.880 | And it took him like 15, 20 years to write that song.

00:54:26.880 | So some writers will do that.

00:54:29.520 | And then other writers just vomit it out

00:54:33.480 | and it's beautiful.

00:54:35.880 | Like I've heard that Bob Dylan or Joni Mitchell,

00:54:37.920 | they're like, they're fast writers.

00:54:39.440 | They just kind of comes out.

00:54:41.840 | - That makes me feel so good to know Leonard Cohen

00:54:43.800 | wrote so many verses of that.

00:54:45.320 | Like that was so deliberately crafted,

00:54:50.320 | extensively, rigorously crafted.

00:54:53.880 | He just would spend months and years

00:54:57.280 | and constantly refining, refining.

00:55:00.240 | - Do you have songs like that for yourself?

00:55:02.360 | Or you refine for many years?

00:55:03.880 | - It's song dependent.

00:55:05.040 | Some just flow out and it's like, oh, there it is.

00:55:08.400 | Everything's there.

00:55:09.240 | And then other songs, it's like,

00:55:12.240 | you might have started it with music

00:55:14.520 | and there's some words that come out

00:55:16.280 | and then trying to fill in the rest of the words.

00:55:18.280 | Sometimes it can be like a square peg in a round hole.

00:55:20.720 | And other times it's like, oh no, I can,

00:55:22.760 | you know, it depends.

00:55:24.960 | Sometimes it becomes like a math problem

00:55:27.640 | and hopefully it doesn't.

00:55:29.680 | 'Cause you just want to say what's right for the song.

00:55:33.880 | And usually when you, you know, write it all together,

00:55:38.720 | like the lyric and the melody and the chords

00:55:42.560 | and everything's kind of developing at once,

00:55:45.240 | at least for the first draft, that's very, very helpful.

00:55:49.360 | Like Sondheim used to write like that.

00:55:52.000 | Just like, he wouldn't move on

00:55:53.440 | until like he would just go this way.

00:55:56.880 | Whereas for me, it's just like,

00:55:57.840 | I'll just go with what seems to be coming naturally

00:56:00.360 | and I'll just let it be what it is.

00:56:01.760 | And then you come back and you say, okay,

00:56:03.200 | well, what do I have to do to this now?

00:56:05.400 | Well, like what's needed?

00:56:06.920 | - Just to linger on the learning process.

00:56:10.160 | What would you recommend for young musicians

00:56:15.880 | and how to get good?

00:56:17.200 | What are the different paths a person can take?

00:56:22.240 | To understand it deeply enough to create something special.

00:56:25.200 | - I think first and foremost,

00:56:28.360 | understanding why you are playing music.

00:56:32.120 | If it's 'cause you have something

00:56:33.920 | that you're trying to express

00:56:36.080 | or that you're just in love with expression itself,

00:56:39.800 | with art itself.

00:56:40.800 | Those are great reasons to start this journey.

00:56:45.800 | - The why should be.

00:56:49.360 | - I think the why is really important

00:56:51.080 | 'cause it's a jagged lifestyle and there's a lot in it.

00:56:55.960 | And so if you don't have your purpose,

00:56:58.880 | if you're not centered in your purpose,

00:57:01.360 | then all that jagged lifestyle

00:57:04.400 | is probably gonna get to you.

00:57:06.160 | - Jagged?

00:57:07.000 | - It's jagged.

00:57:08.080 | Yeah, it's jagged.

00:57:09.160 | It's all over the place.

00:57:11.320 | It's uncertain.

00:57:12.760 | It's one thing, one moment

00:57:14.520 | and a completely different thing, another moment.

00:57:16.160 | You never know what's gonna happen.

00:57:17.640 | And if you thrive on variety, which I love variety,

00:57:22.000 | then it's perfect.

00:57:24.240 | But also every human being needs

00:57:27.800 | a certain amount of certainty and structure.

00:57:29.840 | And so the certainty can come from your inner knowing,

00:57:34.720 | knowing that you're doing exactly what you want to be doing

00:57:39.480 | and knowing what your purpose is in doing it,

00:57:42.800 | in this expression.

00:57:44.760 | Otherwise you're just kind of like

00:57:45.840 | a leaf blowing in the wind.

00:57:47.360 | - Like in the early days, touring,

00:57:49.720 | just playing clubs seems like tough.

00:57:52.600 | - Yeah.

00:57:53.600 | - It's a lot.

00:57:54.440 | - Yeah, it's a lot of like the physical labor aspect

00:57:56.800 | of it is really hard.

00:57:58.200 | Playing on stage to two people or 2000 or 20,000,

00:58:02.360 | that doesn't make a difference.

00:58:04.560 | I mean, it makes a difference to the ticket sales,

00:58:06.440 | which informs what level of luxury

00:58:10.320 | you might have on the road or not.

00:58:11.760 | But other than that,

00:58:12.640 | it's just people there listening to music.

00:58:15.960 | The music doesn't change.

00:58:18.040 | - Does it make it tough when it's two people versus 200?

00:58:21.880 | - No.

00:58:22.960 | - So even if nobody recognizes

00:58:24.920 | whatever the thing you're doing?

00:58:26.480 | - No, because the idea is to be doing,

00:58:29.000 | like having a great conversation on stage.

00:58:31.520 | - The audience can come and go.

00:58:35.440 | - Yeah.

00:58:36.600 | I mean, I always like,

00:58:38.440 | like there's certain points in shows where I'm just like,

00:58:41.400 | I consciously am like,

00:58:43.200 | oh, yes, there's an audience over there.

00:58:45.440 | 'Cause I'm so like wrapped up

00:58:46.760 | in whatever's happening on stage.

00:58:49.240 | - You forget yourself.

00:58:50.760 | - Or maybe I'm remembering myself.

00:58:52.840 | - Oh, damn.

00:58:55.160 | Callback somehow feels like one.

00:58:58.520 | Okay, you think every instrument is its own journey?

00:59:03.640 | Is it play guitar, you play bass, you sing?

00:59:07.480 | Just the mastery of an instrument,

00:59:09.520 | or let's avoid the word mastery,

00:59:11.400 | the understanding of an instrument is its own thing?

00:59:14.240 | Or are they somehow like

00:59:15.520 | physical manifestations of the same thing?

00:59:19.360 | - Both.

00:59:21.360 | Like every instrument has its strengths,

00:59:25.200 | beauty, limitations, range, like possible range

00:59:29.440 | that can be extended to some degree or another,

00:59:32.880 | depending on who you are.

00:59:34.440 | Like trumpet or something, you know?

00:59:36.880 | Like certain people can hit higher notes than others,

00:59:39.000 | blah, blah, blah.

00:59:40.040 | But that being said, we're all playing the same 12 or 24,

00:59:45.040 | however you divide the octave, that many notes,

00:59:49.520 | you know, we're all playing the same notes.

00:59:51.640 | So in that sense, it's all the same thing.

00:59:54.000 | It's just music or better yet, it's just art or expression.

00:59:59.000 | But yeah, every instrument has, you know,

01:00:01.800 | you gotta go through the physical aspects

01:00:05.160 | of it, the motor skills and all of that.

01:00:09.080 | And hopefully you get through that really quickly

01:00:11.120 | so you can get to the expression quickly.

01:00:14.280 | 'Cause if you get stuck in just that first phase,

01:00:17.440 | that's be really boring.

01:00:19.320 | - Yeah, but that's a pretty long phase,

01:00:21.280 | the technical skill required to really play an instrument.

01:00:26.280 | - For some people, it's a long thing

01:00:29.680 | and some people it's short.

01:00:31.360 | It very much varies.

01:00:33.440 | It might have to do with like how you learn

01:00:38.200 | and getting to know like your strengths in learning,

01:00:42.960 | like more oral or more like, is it more like,

01:00:46.240 | like what's your strength and playing off of those strengths.

01:00:52.160 | So for me, like I was saying earlier,

01:00:56.280 | it was just an intuitive thing that I knew,

01:00:58.360 | I can feel when my brain is full,

01:01:01.440 | like that it needs processing time.

01:01:04.080 | And so I listened to that, I don't push past it.

01:01:07.000 | Even if it's like one minute and I do something,

01:01:09.320 | I'm like, okay, silence.

01:01:12.440 | And then I come back and I trust

01:01:14.720 | that it's gonna be there and is there.

01:01:16.280 | So just trusting yourself, I think is really important.

01:01:20.040 | Trusting that you know you better

01:01:22.000 | than anybody else is gonna know you.

01:01:23.760 | So that's the kind of thing with teachers

01:01:26.880 | that can be either really, really helpful and great

01:01:29.760 | or really not great.

01:01:30.720 | Like I'm primarily self-taught.

01:01:32.560 | I've had amazing mentors of all walks of life.

01:01:37.120 | And I think I'm unbelievably blessed

01:01:41.440 | that my mentors are some of my favorite musicians on earth,

01:01:45.800 | whether it's Leonard Cohen or Jeff Beck or Wayne Shorter,

01:01:49.400 | whoever these people are, like they are my favorite

01:01:51.800 | musicians.

01:01:53.000 | So not everyone has that opportunity,

01:01:57.040 | but what the opportunity that we have now

01:01:59.520 | that I didn't have when I was starting

01:02:02.680 | is that everything's on YouTube.

01:02:04.960 | Like every interview with every genius,

01:02:07.720 | like you don't need to necessarily have these people

01:02:11.200 | in person now.

01:02:12.440 | I mean, and then I'll say to that, yes and no.

01:02:17.440 | I agree with myself and then I don't agree with myself.

01:02:21.120 | And the reason is I do believe that there is something

01:02:25.360 | that happens when you're in person with a master.

01:02:29.000 | In some cases that there is something transferred

01:02:34.320 | that is not intellectual, it's not spoken,

01:02:37.240 | it's something else that happens, that can happen,

01:02:41.040 | that I've experienced.

01:02:43.520 | And I really value that.

01:02:47.720 | - And I think that applies to specific disciplines

01:02:49.800 | and also generally.

01:02:50.760 | Like I've been around Olympic gold medalists

01:02:54.760 | just to hang out with them for several days.

01:02:58.040 | And there's something about greatness.

01:03:01.520 | There's a way about them that kind of permeates

01:03:05.200 | the space around them.

01:03:06.120 | You kind of learn something from it.

01:03:07.960 | Even if you don't practice that particular discipline,

01:03:10.760 | there's something to it.

01:03:11.600 | If you're able to see it.

01:03:13.160 | I also like what you said about the playing stuff

01:03:17.480 | in your head, that it forces you to not be,

01:03:23.440 | to not be lost in the physical learning of the instrument.

01:03:28.440 | I think that's one of the things I probably regret

01:03:33.880 | a little bit.

01:03:34.720 | So I play both piano and guitar and I've become quite,

01:03:39.160 | over the years, technically proficient at the instruments.

01:03:42.680 | But I think my mind is underdeveloped because of that.

01:03:47.260 | Meaning like I can't really,

01:03:50.220 | I can feel the music when it's created,

01:03:55.220 | but I can't create out of the feeling.

01:04:00.340 | I haven't practiced the,

01:04:01.540 | projecting the feeling onto the music.

01:04:05.260 | And I'm not like a musician, but I'm just,

01:04:08.900 | it's a different muscle that I think is,

01:04:11.980 | if you really want to create beautiful things,

01:04:13.580 | you have to, the creation happens here, not here.

01:04:17.060 | - I think it's more here.

01:04:18.180 | Or whatever, it's some part of the body,

01:04:20.340 | but it's not with your fingers.

01:04:21.620 | - Yeah, 'cause I think the fingers is more this.

01:04:24.140 | - Sure.

01:04:24.980 | - And then.

01:04:25.860 | - Yes, it is here.

01:04:27.220 | - Yeah.

01:04:28.060 | - And it's just nice that you said that,

01:04:29.380 | 'cause it's probably really,

01:04:31.460 | it's really good advice if you want to create.

01:04:34.340 | - Yeah, slowing down is really great too.

01:04:38.500 | - What do you mean slowing down?

01:04:40.580 | - Slowing everything down.

01:04:42.120 | It could be, I can play something really fast,

01:04:47.980 | but I may want to like practice it.

01:04:51.700 | Yeah.

01:04:54.460 | Like.

01:05:03.700 | (soft music)

01:05:06.100 | - Go slow as possible.

01:05:11.180 | - 'Cause there's all these micro movements

01:05:16.780 | and that are happening that if you just go.

01:05:21.020 | Like you can't pay as close attention

01:05:25.140 | to the exact tone that you're pulling from each note.

01:05:28.460 | And there's a lot to pay attention to

01:05:30.420 | to how my fingers are touching the string here.

01:05:34.020 | Like I can change my tone a million ways

01:05:36.300 | just by the direction of this finger.

01:05:39.080 | And same with how this lands

01:05:41.060 | and how hard I'm attacking the string.

01:05:44.460 | And with what intention am I hitting the string?

01:05:47.860 | Emotionally, physically.

01:05:50.900 | And so even if you can go.

01:05:52.820 | Play that so slow.

01:05:56.900 | See how locked into a pocket you can be.

01:05:59.780 | See how you like feel every aspect of that.

01:06:03.780 | 'Cause then when it gets sped up,

01:06:05.620 | it's still there with you.

01:06:07.260 | Yeah.

01:06:08.100 | - That's brilliant.

01:06:08.920 | - It's kind of like the transcended and included thing

01:06:11.380 | that Ken Wilber talks about.

01:06:13.220 | It's like.

01:06:14.660 | - And I guess that's what meditation can do for you

01:06:16.500 | is to like really listen to,

01:06:17.860 | like observe every aspect of your body,

01:06:19.460 | the breath and all this.

01:06:20.900 | Here you're observing every element,

01:06:22.780 | like every super detailed element of playing a single note.

01:06:26.460 | - Yeah.

01:06:27.540 | - That's cool that if you speed it up,

01:06:28.780 | it's still there with you.

01:06:30.040 | - It is.

01:06:30.940 | Yeah, it is.

01:06:33.840 | 'Cause I hear, there are certain people

01:06:35.700 | it's like they play really fast,

01:06:37.140 | but I don't hear the fullness of tone always.

01:06:42.940 | And it's like, well, it's probably 'cause maybe they didn't,

01:06:46.540 | maybe it's 'cause they didn't slow it down

01:06:49.320 | and really sit with each note

01:06:51.260 | and let it like resonate through their whole being.

01:06:54.700 | It's spiritual.

01:06:55.660 | It's like a spiritual expression.

01:06:57.020 | It's not just like, you know, it's not a sport.

01:07:01.060 | A lot of people treat music like a sport.

01:07:03.940 | - Yeah.

01:07:04.820 | Since starting to learn more like Stevie Ray Vaughan

01:07:07.140 | versus Jimi Hendrix,

01:07:08.400 | I would spend quite a long time on single notes,

01:07:12.420 | so just bending, just like,

01:07:14.140 | just listening to what you can do with bends, spending.

01:07:17.580 | Just thinking like people like BB King

01:07:21.140 | and all these blues musicians,

01:07:22.340 | like spend a career just making a single note cry.

01:07:26.700 | - Yeah.

01:07:27.540 | - There's like an art form to that.

01:07:28.780 | - Yeah.

01:07:29.620 | - And I think you putting it, like taking it really slow,

01:07:32.980 | which I never really thought of,

01:07:34.540 | is a really good idea.

01:07:37.020 | Like really slow it down.

01:07:39.500 | - It's the same with like sitting with your own emotions.

01:07:43.580 | It's like we, when emotions are overwhelming to us,

01:07:47.560 | we get real busy or we move real fast

01:07:50.180 | 'cause it's like we don't wanna feel our feelings.

01:07:53.460 | And those are the moments to slow yourself down.

01:07:57.940 | - And observe it.

01:07:59.180 | Anger, jealousy.

01:08:00.380 | - And just be with it.

01:08:01.220 | Yeah, just be with it.

01:08:02.260 | Be like, be cool with it.

01:08:04.100 | Like love it.

01:08:05.000 | Love the anger.

01:08:06.500 | - It's all beautiful.

01:08:08.580 | (laughing)

01:08:10.420 | - Can you educate me on the difference between bass?

01:08:13.060 | - Bass and bass?

01:08:14.140 | Okay, well, one is a fish.

01:08:15.780 | - At least I pronounced it correctly.

01:08:17.780 | That's good.

01:08:18.620 | It's all about the bass.

01:08:20.820 | - Can you pronounce my name?

01:08:22.540 | - Tal.

01:08:23.620 | - Wow.

01:08:24.460 | Most people say Tal.

01:08:27.940 | - Tal.

01:08:28.780 | - Or Tal.

01:08:29.780 | - Tal, who says Tal?

01:08:31.420 | - Like so many people.

01:08:32.620 | - In the South maybe, Tal.

01:08:34.060 | - I don't know, but the fact that you said my name,

01:08:36.580 | you get extra points.

01:08:37.780 | - Wow, I didn't know this was a game.

01:08:40.580 | Am I winning?

01:08:41.420 | - Yep.

01:08:42.260 | - I like winning.

01:08:43.080 | How do you play the bass?

01:08:45.740 | What's the difference between fingerstyle and slap?

01:08:48.340 | - Slap is like this, fingerstyle is like this.

01:08:50.900 | - You ever played bass with a pick?

01:08:52.580 | - Yeah, sometimes.

01:08:54.100 | - I'm not accusing you of anything.

01:08:55.460 | - No accusation taken.

01:08:57.460 | - I don't know if these are sensitive topics.

01:08:59.460 | - That would be pretty hilarious

01:09:00.620 | if I was sensitive about bass techniques,

01:09:02.660 | but not about love.

01:09:05.780 | - It just looks so cool to slap it.

01:09:07.700 | And I don't understand what that's about.

01:09:09.420 | Like that thumb thing that.

01:09:11.420 | - Yeah, I slap less, a lot less, almost never actually.

01:09:16.420 | It has a very distinctive sound

01:09:19.820 | and does a very distinctive thing to a song

01:09:23.540 | that is not something I hear needed very often

01:09:28.540 | in music today.

01:09:30.740 | - Yeah.

01:09:32.020 | - But in certain styles, like funk, it sounds awesome

01:09:37.500 | and it makes sense.

01:09:39.260 | It was something that was a bit overused at one point.

01:09:42.060 | For instance, like my mentor, Anthony Jackson,

01:09:47.020 | he refused to slap.

01:09:48.780 | Like he actually said, "If you want me to slap,

01:09:51.780 | "I'll leave this gig."

01:09:53.300 | So I'm not like that.

01:09:56.340 | - See, that's why I said sensitive.

01:09:57.500 | See, I was like reading into it.

01:09:59.020 | - 'Cause he's sensitive about it.

01:10:00.460 | - I was feeling the spiritual energy

01:10:02.260 | of the sensitivity of the topic, Anthony Jackson.

01:10:04.820 | And then, I mean, I'm playing electric bass.

01:10:07.740 | So generally speaking, you don't particularly

01:10:09.940 | wanna hear electric bass on straight ahead jazz anyway.

01:10:13.260 | You wanna hear an upright bass.

01:10:15.100 | But if I was to play jazz on electric bass,

01:10:18.740 | I might even kind of like palm mute.

01:10:23.140 | You know, like instead of going like,

01:10:25.340 | I might go to very.

01:10:29.140 | Anything to kind of make the notes,

01:10:34.020 | shorter and less resonant and like kind of fade away quick.

01:10:37.940 | 'Cause the upright does that naturally.

01:10:39.860 | And I have like a different bass,

01:10:41.340 | like a hollow body harmony that sounds closer

01:10:43.900 | to an upright that I'll use.

01:10:45.580 | And so like on my song "Under the Sun" that I put out,

01:10:49.780 | that was on a harmony bass.

01:10:51.060 | And it has like kind of an upright acoustic

01:10:53.940 | kind of tone to it, but with more sustain.

01:10:56.420 | - And is jazz fusion the style where you have like,

01:11:02.860 | oh, an electric bass?

01:11:04.940 | Can you educate me what's the jazz fusion?

01:11:06.020 | - Again, you can have both.

01:11:08.060 | You can have both on, you can have either on anything.

01:11:11.460 | There's no like real rules now.

01:11:14.060 | - I've heard you say something interesting,

01:11:15.300 | which is, well, a lot of things you say is interesting.

01:11:18.820 | - Just one thing.

01:11:20.180 | - Just one.

01:11:21.020 | - And it's what time you're leaving.

01:11:25.180 | (both laughing)

01:11:26.980 | - What time was that again?

01:11:29.020 | - Three minutes.

01:11:30.860 | - That it's maybe easier sometimes to define

01:11:34.220 | a musical genre by the don'ts than the do's.

01:11:37.420 | The don'ts than the do's.

01:11:40.300 | What are the don'ts of jazz and rock?

01:11:44.740 | What are the don'ts of jazz fusion?

01:11:46.260 | What are the don'ts?

01:11:47.700 | In any domain of life, what are the don'ts?

01:11:50.180 | - The don'ts is just to please leave your fear at the door.

01:11:54.860 | And your do's is to be open to anything.

01:11:59.020 | And open your ears, like respond to what's happening now.

01:12:03.460 | I think that quote you're talking about

01:12:07.380 | might have been more about

01:12:10.100 | an individual musician's unique sound.

01:12:15.260 | Because everyone has their sound.

01:12:17.540 | If they've developed their voice

01:12:19.500 | and they've listened to their own aesthetic preferences,

01:12:24.100 | of which everyone is slightly different,

01:12:25.620 | everyone has slightly different likes and dislikes.

01:12:29.100 | Then you'll have a unique sound on your instrument

01:12:32.140 | and your unique sound is defined

01:12:35.420 | more by the choices you make rather than,

01:12:38.300 | I mean, it's equally as defined by the choices you make

01:12:41.940 | and the choices you don't make.

01:12:42.780 | I mean, it's the flip side of the same coin, really.

01:12:46.660 | - Yeah, there's certain musicians you can just tell.

01:12:48.980 | It's them, just you hear a few notes

01:12:50.820 | and you're like, okay, it's them.

01:12:52.140 | Tone, sometimes it's tone,

01:12:53.180 | sometimes it's the way they play rhythm.

01:12:56.860 | - Yeah, that quote you're talking about

01:12:58.940 | might have even had to do with someone's real limitations

01:13:02.020 | on an instrument, that then that would define their sound

01:13:05.300 | as the things that they can't, like actually can't do,

01:13:08.340 | versus what you're choosing to do

01:13:09.780 | versus not choosing to do,

01:13:11.540 | which is that flip side of the same coin thing.

01:13:14.860 | - How many fingers you play with.

01:13:16.500 | It seems like a lot of the greatest musicians

01:13:19.220 | aren't technically perfect.

01:13:22.260 | The imperfections is the thing that makes them unique.

01:13:26.540 | And where a lot of the creativity comes from.

01:13:28.900 | I mean, Hendrix, Hendrix had a lot of those things.

01:13:32.020 | The way he put like a thumb over the top.

01:13:34.300 | - Well, his hands were huge.

01:13:35.620 | There was no other place for the thumb to go.

01:13:38.060 | And it was great that he could reach the E string

01:13:40.620 | and that was an advantage.

01:13:42.900 | - And he was a lefty playing a right and a guitar.

01:13:47.740 | Flipped, I guess.

01:13:49.780 | That's weird.

01:13:51.380 | That probably doesn't have much of an effect,

01:13:53.420 | maybe a spiritual one, I don't know.

01:13:55.420 | - Actually flipping a guitar is different.

01:13:58.700 | It does bring out something different in you.

01:14:01.020 | 'Cause I've done it, I've flipped it,

01:14:02.260 | and it's like, oh wow, yeah, it's really different.

01:14:06.060 | I remember talking to my osteopath about,

01:14:08.940 | 'cause there's so much weight on this shoulder

01:14:11.780 | while I'm playing all the time.

01:14:13.020 | And they were saying, well, just after shows,

01:14:16.340 | just literally just turn it upside down

01:14:18.100 | and do the exact same thing in the opposite way.

01:14:20.780 | It'll even out your body.

01:14:22.180 | And I was like, that's good advice.

01:14:24.300 | - Have you actually tried it?

01:14:25.740 | Okay, all right.

01:14:26.780 | I'll write that down.

01:14:28.940 | All right, well, do you know a guy named Davey504?

01:14:36.060 | - I've heard of him.

01:14:37.220 | - I recently learned of him.

01:14:38.740 | He's a YouTuber and a bass player.

01:14:40.980 | He's amazing.

01:14:42.220 | He combines memes and also just

01:14:44.540 | these brilliant bass compositions.

01:14:46.820 | And says slap like a lot.

01:14:48.940 | He's big into slapping.

01:14:50.980 | He's the one that kinda made me realize this is a thing.

01:14:54.180 | - Okay, and he also said that you're one of the best,

01:14:57.660 | not the best bassists in the world.

01:14:59.700 | There was a bunch of his fans that wrote in

01:15:01.660 | and he analyzed the Jeff Peck thing

01:15:04.300 | that we watched at Crossroads.

01:15:06.500 | It was one of the greatest solos ever, bass solos ever.

01:15:09.140 | So shout out to him.

01:15:10.900 | What does that make you feel like?

01:15:12.140 | You're the greatest of all time.

01:15:13.100 | - Chocolate cookies.

01:15:14.300 | - Chocolate, is that your favorite?

01:15:15.940 | - I like macadamia nut,

01:15:17.460 | like if you really wanna get into it

01:15:19.740 | with like white chocolate.

01:15:21.420 | - Yeah, that's a rare one for people to say

01:15:23.580 | is the favorite.

01:15:24.420 | - Chocolate chip is just so easy.

01:15:25.540 | You can kinda get them anywhere.

01:15:27.220 | - Yeah, last thing you wanna be is easy.

01:15:29.820 | This world, you don't wanna be easy.

01:15:32.620 | You said that I love rock and roll, quote,

01:15:35.020 | I love folk, I love jazz, I love Indian classical music.

01:15:37.980 | I really love all kinds of music

01:15:39.180 | as long as it's authentic and from the heart.

01:15:41.140 | So when you play rock versus jazz,

01:15:42.660 | you played all kinds of music.

01:15:44.460 | What's the difference technically,

01:15:45.740 | musically, spiritually for you?

01:15:49.020 | - Well, there's no spiritual difference.

01:15:50.460 | - Okay, nice.

01:15:51.820 | Cross that off the list.

01:15:53.900 | - But, well, musically, yeah,

01:15:58.100 | it's kinda like what we were saying earlier.

01:15:59.860 | It's like each genre has its language

01:16:04.860 | of what makes it that genre.

01:16:09.380 | And that would be a good thing to say

01:16:12.500 | it's defined by the do's and don'ts.

01:16:15.700 | Because, yeah, it's like, I'm trying to think,

01:16:22.660 | basically I put the song first

01:16:25.140 | and I think of the song as the melody,

01:16:29.140 | the lyrics, and then the harmony,

01:16:32.140 | and obviously the groove.

01:16:34.420 | - So the song goes before the genre in a sense.

01:16:36.820 | Each song is like its own thing.

01:16:39.660 | - They're both things that are held in my mind.

01:16:42.260 | It's like, okay, genre and then song,

01:16:46.060 | which is comprised of those basic elements.

01:16:52.100 | And I tend to kind of prioritize lyric

01:16:54.740 | because somebody is trying to express something over music.

01:16:59.500 | And so the lyric is very, very important.

01:17:03.140 | And so then the choices come from there.

01:17:07.220 | It's like, okay, within the genre of X,

01:17:10.980 | this is the typical language.

01:17:15.340 | And then how do I best serve this lyric?

01:17:19.540 | And then where else can I pull from

01:17:23.580 | that might not be in these two bags

01:17:27.220 | that would put a little twist on it?

01:17:30.180 | So those are all the kinds of things

01:17:31.580 | I might be thinking about.

01:17:33.300 | But I don't like twists for the sake of twists either.

01:17:38.460 | I like twists because I wanna hear something

01:17:43.460 | that might be fresh.

01:17:46.420 | But when someone does something just to be hip,

01:17:50.300 | it's annoying to me.

01:17:52.100 | I think you can hear the difference.

01:17:53.940 | It's like when people, they write in odd time signatures

01:17:58.260 | or they write all these riffs just because they can,

01:18:02.620 | just 'cause they have the chops to do it

01:18:04.140 | or they know how to play in 11/16 and whatever.

01:18:08.340 | But if it's not actually creating a piece of music

01:18:14.060 | that's going to move somebody, then why are you doing it?

01:18:17.740 | And so I think a lot of the questions I'm asking myself

01:18:20.980 | when I'm approaching a song

01:18:21.980 | are mainly philosophical and aesthetic.

01:18:26.220 | - So you like to stand on the edge of the cliff,

01:18:29.260 | not for the thrill of it,

01:18:30.260 | but 'cause that's where you find something new, potentially.

01:18:33.220 | - Yeah, and it's thrilling.

01:18:36.220 | - But you're not doing it just for the thrill.

01:18:37.860 | - I'm not doing it for the thrill.

01:18:39.140 | It just happens to be thrilling.

01:18:41.220 | - All right.

01:18:42.340 | - 'Cause you can always reel it back in.

01:18:44.340 | - Can you though?

01:18:46.220 | - Yeah, you can.

01:18:47.380 | You can do a totally disciplined,

01:18:50.980 | like I can go into a session and, okay.

01:18:53.580 | My favorite thing about going into a session

01:18:55.660 | with musicians that I adore is that we don't hear the demo.

01:19:00.660 | 'Cause if you hear a demo,

01:19:02.740 | you're hearing what the producer or songwriter

01:19:04.660 | have already imagined that every instrument is playing.

01:19:07.540 | And then it's like, well, I've already heard what you want.

01:19:10.180 | Now my mind is, part of my mind is focused

01:19:13.380 | on what I already know you want

01:19:14.220 | and what the destination is gonna be.

01:19:16.180 | Why did you bring me in here?

01:19:18.140 | I wanna not hear it.

01:19:19.900 | I just want you to sit at a piano and sing the song.

01:19:23.540 | I wanna hear the chords and the lyric

01:19:25.220 | and sit in an acoustic guitar, play it,

01:19:27.540 | and then let's all go in the room and then take one.

01:19:30.940 | I would say 80% of the time, take one has the most gold.

01:19:35.620 | And there might be like a mistake or two

01:19:37.380 | or someone forgot to go to the B section.

01:19:39.540 | And you might wanna like punch that in

01:19:42.500 | so that you're hitting the right chord.

01:19:44.300 | But all the magic is in that take.

01:19:47.660 | And then sometimes it happens where it's like you go,

01:19:50.580 | let's say we're rehearsing and take one, two, three, four,

01:19:53.660 | and then you're like thinking about it too much.

01:19:55.980 | And then you go and you have a dinner and you come back

01:19:58.380 | and the next take one after dinner is the one.

01:20:01.780 | Like it's usually after there's some sort of a break.

01:20:05.620 | But obviously there's exceptions to that rule.

01:20:08.540 | Sometimes it's take two, three.

01:20:10.180 | - Yeah, you said that this is something

01:20:12.740 | that surprised you about recording with Prince

01:20:15.500 | is that he would just, so much of it would be take one.

01:20:18.660 | So quick, it would just move so quickly.

01:20:21.700 | - Yeah, well, with that particular album

01:20:23.620 | that we made together, it's called "Welcome to America."

01:20:26.860 | He called me up and asked me,

01:20:29.420 | he said, "I wanna make a band with you.

01:20:30.900 | I'm like really inspired by what you're doing

01:20:33.060 | with Jeff Beck.

01:20:34.140 | I wanna make a trio.

01:20:35.700 | Do you like the drum rolls of Jack DeJohnette?"

01:20:38.020 | It was like his first question to me.

01:20:39.340 | I'm like, "Well, yeah, who doesn't?

01:20:40.660 | Who doesn't like Jack DeJohnette?"

01:20:42.140 | Like one of the greatest of all time.

01:20:44.140 | And he's like, "Well, you know, sounds like,"

01:20:47.260 | 'cause we had a discussion about drumming,

01:20:48.860 | "sounds like you're kind of particular about drummers.

01:20:51.300 | So why don't you find us the drummer

01:20:53.860 | and I'll trust you to find the drummer.

01:20:56.220 | You can audition some people, send me some recordings

01:20:58.820 | and maybe your two favorites

01:20:59.860 | and I'll pick out of the two or something."

01:21:02.540 | So I did that, went on a journey,

01:21:04.900 | found a couple of guys, he picked the one.

01:21:07.660 | We went in and he basically just would be like,

01:21:12.660 | "Okay, so the A section is gonna go like this.

01:21:17.100 | And then the B section, I think we're gonna go to G

01:21:20.500 | and da, da, and then the bridge.

01:21:22.380 | I might go to B flat, but maybe I'll hold off and da, da, da.

01:21:25.140 | Okay, let's go.

01:21:26.060 | One, two, three, four."

01:21:28.100 | And then we recorded it to tape.

01:21:30.540 | There was no part, he did not want me to punch anything.

01:21:33.380 | Like it was like, and there was one song called

01:21:36.860 | "Same Page, Different Book."

01:21:38.940 | And he like talked through it just like he did.

01:21:43.220 | And then he had me soloing between each phrase,

01:21:45.900 | like little fills.

01:21:47.020 | It was like, I didn't know that that was gonna come up.

01:21:50.380 | And he loved that.

01:21:51.540 | He loved to have me on the edge of my seat,

01:21:54.540 | like falling off the cliff.

01:21:56.100 | That was my first like real, like falling off a cliff moment

01:21:59.820 | from somebody else holding me at the edge of the cliff.

01:22:04.300 | You know what I mean?

01:22:06.740 | Now I just do it on my own 'cause it's so fun

01:22:10.300 | and it makes sense.

01:22:11.620 | It's the best thing for the music.

01:22:13.260 | - When you say punch the tape,

01:22:14.340 | is that when you actually record it?

01:22:16.540 | - Like if you record to tape and there's like,

01:22:18.980 | say like you hit a bum note,

01:22:20.940 | like to punch in means to like fix that note.

01:22:25.940 | Like re-record over that one little area

01:22:28.340 | and punch that note in.

01:22:30.220 | He didn't want that.

01:22:31.060 | He's like, "All my favorite records just like,

01:22:34.380 | whatever happened, happened.

01:22:35.740 | That's that moment in time.

01:22:36.980 | Let's make a new moment in time."

01:22:39.140 | It's great.

01:22:39.980 | Nobody makes records like that anymore.

01:22:41.700 | Everyone wants to like, you know, edit and edit

01:22:45.420 | and re-record and this and that.

01:22:46.900 | And unfortunately with a lot of music,

01:22:50.140 | I'm not saying all music,

01:22:51.140 | 'cause there's plenty of great music coming out,

01:22:53.580 | but there's the danger of it being flat

01:22:58.580 | because every little imperfection is digitally removed.

01:23:03.860 | - Well, that's one of the promising things about AI

01:23:06.100 | is because it can be so perfect

01:23:07.940 | that the thing will actually come back to

01:23:10.580 | and value about music is the imperfections

01:23:13.060 | that humans can create.

01:23:14.620 | - Yeah.

01:23:15.460 | - There'll be a greater valuation of imperfections.

01:23:18.700 | - Yeah.

01:23:19.540 | I mean, you can kind of program imperfections too.

01:23:22.460 | - Yeah, sure.

01:23:23.300 | That's also very sad.

01:23:25.300 | But then you get closer and closer

01:23:27.740 | to what it means to be human.

01:23:28.740 | And maybe there'll be AIs among us.

01:23:31.620 | There'll be AIs among us.

01:23:33.620 | There'll be human flawed like the rest of us.

01:23:35.900 | Mortal and silly at times.

01:23:39.180 | - Another big sigh.

01:23:43.980 | - Is it fair to say that you're very melodic on bass?

01:23:49.460 | Like you make the bass sing more than people normally do?

01:23:54.460 | - Is that a compliment?

01:23:56.500 | - Yes, I think so.

01:23:57.500 | - Thank you.

01:23:58.340 | - Moving on to the next question.

01:24:01.820 | - I mean, by way of understanding,

01:24:04.140 | it's just there's something about the way you play bass

01:24:06.900 | that just kind of pulls you in the way

01:24:08.580 | when you listen to somebody play a guitar,

01:24:11.140 | like a guitar solo.

01:24:12.300 | - The thing I love about Jeff Beck

01:24:15.220 | is that he played the guitar like a singer.

01:24:18.580 | And I think that the way that Wayne Shorter

01:24:20.900 | played his saxophone, it's like a singer.

01:24:23.340 | And I think everyone, every musician

01:24:26.780 | aspires to just sound like a singer.

01:24:29.060 | - So you make it sing.

01:24:30.820 | Let me ask you about, just come back to Hendrix,

01:24:33.060 | 'cause you said that you had three CDs,

01:24:34.980 | Jimi Hendrix, Herbie Hancock, and Rage Against the Machine.

01:24:38.260 | First of all, great combination.

01:24:39.860 | I'm a big Rage fan.

01:24:42.540 | - It's so funny 'cause like when I listen

01:24:44.340 | to some of the music that I create,

01:24:46.380 | like my solo music, I'm like,

01:24:48.260 | I could see how this is a combination

01:24:50.100 | of Herbie Hancock, Rage Against the Machine,

01:24:52.900 | and Jimi Hendrix.

01:24:54.020 | I hear the influences, it's funny.

01:24:58.260 | - Just from your musician perspective,

01:25:00.060 | what's interesting to you about,

01:25:02.540 | what really stands out to you about Hendrix?

01:25:04.780 | I just would love to hear

01:25:07.700 | like a real professional musician's opinion of Hendrix.

01:25:12.500 | - I love that he is two voices

01:25:18.460 | combined into one voice.

01:25:20.380 | So it's like, there is his voice on the guitar,

01:25:23.860 | and there is his singing voice,

01:25:26.980 | and there is the combination of the two

01:25:29.540 | that make one voice.

01:25:31.540 | And of course, the third element is his songwriting.

01:25:36.540 | And all of this have this beautiful chemistry

01:25:40.780 | and all work geniusly, perfectly together.

01:25:45.380 | And there's nothing like it.

01:25:48.060 | And he always beat himself up about being a singer

01:25:51.660 | and like he didn't like his voice,

01:25:52.940 | but it's like, my favorite singers

01:25:55.420 | are the singers that don't sound like singers.

01:25:58.740 | - Bob Dylan.

01:25:59.580 | - Bob Dylan.

01:26:00.420 | - You like Bob Dylan.

01:26:01.460 | - Love Bob Dylan.

01:26:03.140 | - You love his voice too.

01:26:04.380 | - I love his voice.

01:26:06.100 | - Can you explain your love affair with Bob Dylan's voice?

01:26:09.860 | - He's expressing his lyrics.

01:26:14.020 | It's just pure expression, exactly what he means.

01:26:17.860 | I feel everything that he's saying

01:26:22.060 | with 100% authenticity.

01:26:24.740 | That's what I wanna hear from a singer.

01:26:26.380 | I don't care how many runs you can do

01:26:27.900 | and blah, blah, blah.

01:26:29.420 | I wanna believe what you're saying.

01:26:31.180 | - Leonard Cohen is that.

01:26:34.780 | - There's countless like Neil Young.

01:26:38.420 | I mean, there's so many musicians.

01:26:41.140 | I love Elliot Smith for that reason.

01:26:43.340 | - Let me ask you about mentorship.

01:26:45.620 | You said teachers and mentors, you had mentors.

01:26:49.540 | What's a good mentor for you, harsh or supportive?

01:26:53.940 | - Supportive.

01:26:55.060 | - Supportive.

01:26:56.100 | You've seen "Whiplash," the movie?

01:26:58.780 | So that guy, somebody's screaming at you,

01:27:01.220 | like kicking you off the cliff.

01:27:03.260 | - Not necessary.

01:27:04.220 | I feel like anybody that's truly passionate

01:27:06.540 | about something that they wanna be great at

01:27:09.660 | or a master of or this and that,

01:27:11.820 | they've already got that person inside their own head.

01:27:14.900 | You don't need somebody else to do that for you.

01:27:19.180 | I think you need love, acceptance, guidance, support, time.

01:27:25.180 | Advice if you ask for it, just a space,

01:27:30.180 | just a nice open space.

01:27:32.820 | All my mentors were just that for me.

01:27:36.420 | They didn't tell me to do anything.

01:27:38.340 | They didn't care.

01:27:40.340 | 'Cause they're not, why do they need to be invested

01:27:44.740 | in where I'm going?

01:27:45.740 | Only I know where I'm going.

01:27:47.580 | So for some mentor to come and be like,

01:27:49.260 | this is what you need to be doing and practice this.

01:27:52.020 | But why?

01:27:52.860 | What if that's not my path?

01:27:54.060 | That might be your path.

01:27:55.980 | So I'm not really, again, otherwise it feels like a sport,

01:28:00.180 | like who can run the fastest race?

01:28:02.300 | And it's like, well, okay, well,

01:28:03.140 | I get that for that for sport.

01:28:05.620 | Maybe it makes sense to have someone a bit more hardcore,

01:28:08.940 | but still, I would say athletes have the same mentality.

01:28:12.180 | They've got that in them already too.

01:28:15.060 | So I think more of a strategic approach

01:28:18.180 | to mentorship works really well.

01:28:20.180 | And mainly just having an open space

01:28:24.940 | and just being available to someone.

01:28:27.460 | - And kind of show that they see the special in you.

01:28:31.580 | - Yeah, yeah.

01:28:32.420 | - And they give you the room to develop that special,

01:28:34.820 | whatever.

01:28:35.660 | - Exactly, 'cause if you do have that harsh critic

01:28:37.780 | inside you, it's like, it is nice to have somebody

01:28:41.380 | that isn't like your family or someone

01:28:43.820 | that's not obligated in any way,

01:28:45.460 | that just sees your talent and they're like,

01:28:47.980 | yeah, I dig what you're doing, keep doing it.

01:28:50.460 | - Yeah, it's funny that that's not always easy to come by.

01:28:55.660 | - Do you have any mentors?

01:28:58.060 | - Yeah, I've had a few recently,

01:28:59.740 | but for most of my life, people didn't really,

01:29:02.040 | you know, I'm very much like that too.

01:29:06.700 | Like somebody to pat me on the back and say like,

01:29:09.180 | like see that there's something in you of value.

01:29:12.120 | Yeah, I didn't really have that, so.

01:29:16.540 | - Do you wish you did?

01:29:17.660 | - Yeah, yeah, but maybe the wishing that I did

01:29:21.180 | is the thing that made me who I am, not having it.

01:29:24.620 | The longing for that, maybe that's the thing

01:29:27.500 | that helped me develop a constant sense of longing,

01:29:32.500 | which I think is a way of, because I have that engine in me,

01:29:38.820 | it really allows me to deeply appreciate

01:29:42.660 | every single moment, every single,

01:29:44.220 | everything that's given to me.

01:29:45.720 | So like just an eternal gratitude.

01:29:49.180 | So you never know which are the bad parts

01:29:52.140 | and the good parts.

01:29:53.940 | So if you remove one thing, it might be,

01:29:57.080 | the whole thing might collapse.

01:30:01.100 | I suppose I'm grateful for the whole thing.

01:30:03.260 | That one note you screwed up so many years ago,

01:30:08.700 | that might've been essential.

01:30:10.140 | - What about, because you do jujitsu.

01:30:13.140 | - Yes, do you?

01:30:14.780 | - Are you?

01:30:15.860 | - My dad does.

01:30:17.220 | My dad's super into it.

01:30:19.020 | I love my dad, he's the coolest.

01:30:20.720 | But no, I don't do it.

01:30:24.740 | He's a blue belt right now.

01:30:27.620 | - Nice, nice.

01:30:28.740 | You ever been on the mat with him?

01:30:30.300 | - Not yet, but I plan on it.

01:30:32.780 | - You should do it.

01:30:33.620 | - What belt are you?

01:30:34.940 | - Black belt.

01:30:35.780 | - Sick.

01:30:37.300 | Do you wanna go on the--

01:30:38.740 | - All right, you got the shit talking part of jujitsu done.

01:30:41.620 | You just have to do the technique.

01:30:44.340 | - But for that, for instance,

01:30:47.060 | do you need a harsh mentor or a teacher?

01:30:52.060 | - Yeah, but you said it really beautifully.

01:30:56.260 | There's a, to me, I agree,

01:30:58.140 | there's a difference between sport and art.

01:31:00.640 | They overlap, for sure,

01:31:04.540 | but there's something about sport

01:31:07.220 | where perfection is actually,

01:31:09.060 | perfection, perfection is really the thing

01:31:11.180 | you really wanna get to.

01:31:12.680 | The technical perfection.

01:31:13.660 | With art, it feels like technical perfection

01:31:15.660 | is almost a way to get lost on the path to wherever,

01:31:20.660 | something unique.

01:31:22.300 | But yeah, with sport, I definitely,

01:31:26.060 | and one of the kind of athletes

01:31:28.980 | that loves to have a dictatorial coach.

01:31:31.480 | - Yeah.

01:31:33.260 | - Somebody that helps me really push myself to the limit.

01:31:38.100 | - But you're the one that's kind of dictating

01:31:40.380 | how hard you're getting pushed in a way.

01:31:42.340 | You're choosing your mentor.

01:31:44.000 | Like that "Whiplash" video is like,

01:31:45.920 | he didn't ask for that.

01:31:47.960 | You know? - In a way, he might've.

01:31:49.040 | - Well, maybe, maybe subconsciously.

01:31:51.360 | - I mean, there is--

01:31:52.200 | - If it's a movie, so.

01:31:53.020 | (both laughing)

01:31:56.500 | - Next, you're gonna tell me they're just actors.

01:31:58.800 | I mean, but yeah, how do we choose things?

01:32:02.840 | You don't always choose,

01:32:03.880 | but you kind of maybe subconsciously choose.

01:32:06.300 | And some of it, like some of the great Olympic athletes

01:32:11.120 | I've interacted with, their parents for many years

01:32:14.380 | would force them to go to practice

01:32:16.260 | until they discovered the beauty of the thing

01:32:18.180 | that they were doing, and then they loved it.

01:32:20.540 | So like, at which point does something

01:32:24.540 | that looks like abuse become like a gift?

01:32:27.180 | You know?

01:32:28.220 | It's weird.

01:32:29.060 | It's all very weird.

01:32:31.380 | But for you, support and space to discover the thing,

01:32:36.380 | the voice, the music within you.

01:32:40.100 | - Yeah, that's my personal choice,

01:32:42.280 | because I'm very familiar with the inner critic,

01:32:44.460 | and I can bring her out at any point.

01:32:47.220 | I don't need help with that, you know?

01:32:48.700 | - Oh, so you do have, she's on call.

01:32:50.860 | - She was on overdrive.

01:32:52.840 | That's why now I'm, I had to work on that so much.

01:32:57.680 | - Yeah, you have a really happy way about you right now.

01:33:00.460 | - Thanks. - The very zen.

01:33:01.720 | Can I ask you about Bruce Springsteen?

01:33:05.040 | - Yeah, sure.

01:33:05.940 | - A lot of songs of his I listen to

01:33:08.980 | make me feel this melancholy feeling.

01:33:11.060 | It's not just Bruce Springsteen, but Bruce does a lot.

01:33:15.160 | What is that about songs that arouse a kind of sad feeling,

01:33:21.740 | or a longing feeling, or a feeling?

01:33:25.540 | What is that?

01:33:26.380 | What is that about us humans

01:33:28.060 | on the receiving end of the music?

01:33:29.760 | - Frequencies, each frequency does elicit

01:33:34.060 | a different kind of emotional response.

01:33:37.860 | That is real, scientific.

01:33:40.340 | - You mean like on the physics aspect of it?

01:33:41.860 | - Yeah, yeah, the physical level.

01:33:43.700 | So there is that.

01:33:45.540 | Combined with the right kind of lyric

01:33:49.980 | and the right kind of melody of the right kind of chord

01:33:52.340 | will elicit a very particular kind of emotion.

01:33:55.900 | And it is scientific, it can be analyzed.

01:33:58.620 | I don't particularly want to analyze it

01:34:01.260 | because I don't want to approach things with that

01:34:07.100 | in advance, I don't want it to inform where I'm going.

01:34:09.460 | I like the feeling to lead me naturally

01:34:12.460 | to where I'm writing.

01:34:14.080 | But yeah, there's a real chemical element to that.

01:34:19.080 | And then also, like I was saying,

01:34:21.780 | the lyric, what it means to you.

01:34:23.920 | Which poetry is supposed to mean something

01:34:27.420 | to everybody, like different.

01:34:29.740 | It's not supposed to mean one thing.

01:34:31.760 | You can't analyze and be like,

01:34:32.900 | this is what this poet meant.

01:34:36.420 | And like we were talking about with Leonard earlier,

01:34:38.860 | it's like the broader you can leave a lyric, the better.

01:34:42.860 | You can appeal to people in so many different ways.

01:34:45.860 | And even to the songwriter.

01:34:47.620 | Like I'll sing some of my songs from five years ago

01:34:50.300 | and I'll be like, oh, I didn't even think

01:34:53.620 | that it could have meant that,

01:34:55.500 | but I guess it does, that's funny.

01:34:57.340 | I'll like just giggle on stage suddenly

01:34:59.460 | 'cause a lyric will hit me differently

01:35:01.260 | from a different new experience or something.

01:35:05.020 | - Have you ever cried listening to a song?

01:35:07.660 | - Of course.

01:35:08.820 | Weep like a baby in a bathtub.

01:35:12.860 | - Which, who's a regular go-to then?

01:35:17.540 | - Leonard. - Leonard, yeah.

01:35:20.300 | Hallelujah is a song that consistently

01:35:23.140 | makes me feel something.

01:35:25.140 | - It's holy, his work is holy.

01:35:27.280 | And if you were in his presence,

01:35:33.100 | I guess there was a lot to that being.

01:35:37.700 | - What advice would you give to young folks

01:35:43.660 | on how to have a life they can be proud of?

01:35:46.260 | - Just tackle the demons as early as possible,

01:35:51.260 | whether it's through your art or through meditation

01:35:53.860 | or through whatever it means, diaries, whatever it is.

01:36:00.140 | Just walk towards the things that are scary.

01:36:04.660 | Because if you don't, they'll just expand,

01:36:10.340 | they become bigger.

01:36:11.300 | If you avoid the demons, they become bigger.

01:36:14.420 | - What does that mean for you today?

01:36:17.740 | Are you still missing Jeff?

01:36:19.780 | - I'll always miss Jeff,

01:36:21.200 | but I don't feel like a piece of me is missing.

01:36:28.660 | And same with Leonard, it's that I did give them

01:36:33.660 | a piece of myself and maybe they gave me a piece of them

01:36:37.620 | that I hold with me and I cherish,

01:36:41.980 | but it doesn't feel like I'm less than

01:36:45.900 | or they're less than or anything's less than.

01:36:48.540 | Just you learn to appreciate the impermanence

01:36:56.220 | of everything in life, the impermanence of everything

01:37:00.660 | except for consciousness, I guess you could say,

01:37:04.100 | is the only thing that is permanent.

01:37:05.820 | So everything else, you learn to appreciate

01:37:10.460 | that impermanence because the limited amount of time

01:37:15.060 | in this particular body, it's enticing,

01:37:20.100 | kind of gives you a time limit, which is cool.

01:37:23.580 | I like that.

01:37:25.300 | - So you've come to accept your own?

01:37:27.300 | - Yeah, it's cool that I'm like, okay,

01:37:29.340 | I've got maybe this amount of time, who knows.

01:37:31.780 | - You could end today.

01:37:33.100 | - But if I died today, I'd be really happy with my life.

01:37:38.100 | It's not like I'm like, oh, I missed out on this and that.

01:37:41.420 | - So you really wanna make sure that every day

01:37:43.820 | could be your last day and you're happy with that.

01:37:46.540 | - I've always lived that way.

01:37:48.460 | Yeah, I felt this way since I was in my early 20s.

01:37:52.580 | I'd be like, yeah, I could die today, sure.

01:37:55.260 | I don't wanna die, I have no reason to die.

01:37:57.780 | But if I did, I know that I put my everything,

01:38:02.260 | all my effort and all my passion and all my love

01:38:05.340 | into whatever I've already done.

01:38:07.060 | So if my time's up, then my time's up.

01:38:09.180 | - What role does love play in this whole thing,

01:38:12.940 | in the human condition?

01:38:14.740 | - Well, love is everything.

01:38:16.300 | I mean, if you define love, if you're talking about love

01:38:19.900 | as in romantic love or paternal or maternal love,

01:38:24.220 | or if you're talking about love as in,

01:38:27.460 | you know, in an Eastern tradition,

01:38:30.940 | like Vedanta, for instance, love is consciousness.

01:38:34.660 | Love is everything.

01:38:36.460 | - That's the only permanent thing.

01:38:38.380 | - Yeah, or if you were to come from a Zen

01:38:41.100 | or like a Buddhist perspective, they would say nothingness,

01:38:44.780 | like emptiness is, versus fullness.

01:38:49.780 | - Well, those guys are really obsessed

01:38:51.180 | with the whole suffering thing.

01:38:53.900 | - And letting go of it.

01:38:55.540 | - Yeah.

01:38:56.380 | - Well, I was wondering if you would do me the honor

01:39:03.980 | of playing a song.

01:39:06.060 | - Do you want a suffering song or a suffering song?

01:39:09.960 | - I think I would love a suffering song.

01:39:13.060 | - Cool.

01:39:13.900 | Do you want a sound check and make sure I'm not--

01:39:19.660 | (guitar strumming)

01:39:23.180 | - Sound check.

01:39:24.020 | - One, two.

01:39:26.700 | Yeah, it sounds really good.

01:39:29.020 | - This one's good?

01:39:30.540 | All right, count me off.

01:39:31.580 | - Yeah.

01:39:32.420 | I don't know how to count somebody off.

01:39:37.100 | Where do I start?

01:39:37.940 | A nine or three, two, one.

01:39:41.820 | - Yeah, you got it.

01:39:43.060 | One, two.

01:39:44.100 | - One, two.

01:39:45.140 | (guitar strumming)

01:39:49.500 | (soft guitar music)

01:39:52.500 | ♪ I call out to the ocean ♪

01:39:59.580 | ♪ My tears fall into the sea ♪

01:40:08.020 | ♪ For the vows that have been broken ♪

01:40:17.220 | ♪ Across the dunes of time repeatedly ♪

01:40:22.220 | ♪ Like a knight in battered armor ♪

01:40:31.220 | ♪ I lay my sword upon the ground ♪

01:40:43.020 | ♪ 'Cause I can't keep fighting these same battles ♪

01:40:48.020 | ♪ More has been lost than has been found ♪

01:40:57.020 | ♪ It's hard to feel things changing ♪

01:41:08.700 | ♪ After all's been said and done ♪

01:41:13.700 | ♪ We spend our lives rearranging ♪

01:41:22.700 | ♪ Everything under the sun ♪

01:41:34.780 | ♪ I walk the same road to work each Monday ♪

01:41:39.780 | ♪ Every step tears at my heel ♪

01:41:48.780 | ♪ I sleep not to dream but to forget on Sunday ♪

01:42:00.220 | ♪ A spoke just turning with the wheel ♪

01:42:05.220 | ♪ It's hard to feel things changing ♪

01:42:14.220 | ♪ After all's been said and done ♪

01:42:26.220 | ♪ We spend our lives rearranging ♪

01:42:31.220 | ♪ Everything under the sun ♪

01:42:40.220 | ♪ Reaching for the sky ♪

01:42:47.220 | ♪ Feet buried in the ground ♪

01:42:52.220 | ♪ Looking for some way out of the circle spinning round ♪

01:42:57.220 | ♪ My eyes on the horizon seeking out the light ♪

01:43:05.220 | ♪ But don't let me be lost forever in the night ♪

01:43:15.220 | ♪ 'Cause it's hard to feel things changing ♪

01:43:20.220 | ♪ After all's been said and done ♪

01:43:29.220 | ♪ We spend our lives rearranging ♪

01:43:41.220 | ♪ We spend our lives rearranging ♪

01:43:46.220 | ♪ Everything under the sun ♪

01:43:55.220 | ♪ Under the sun ♪

01:44:00.880 | (Tal whistling)

01:44:08.060 | - You're amazing.

01:44:08.880 | That was amazing, Tal.

01:44:10.220 | Thank you so much.

01:44:11.220 | (Tal laughing)

01:44:14.800 | - Try that.

01:44:18.220 | - Try turning it to 11.

01:44:22.220 | (tune playing)

01:44:24.220 | - It's quite loud.

01:44:25.220 | Can you see it from the headphones?

01:44:26.220 | It's like distorting.

01:44:28.220 | - Can you play something?

01:44:29.220 | - No.

01:44:30.220 | (tune playing)

01:44:32.880 | (tune playing)

01:44:35.540 | - Such a professional.

01:44:42.880 | - I should produce your next record.

01:44:47.880 | - Please.

01:44:48.880 | (tune playing)

01:44:52.540 | (tune playing)

01:44:55.200 | ♪ Love, don't rescue me ♪

01:45:07.540 | ♪ I've got nowhere better I wanna be ♪

01:45:16.540 | ♪ I wanna be held but not be holdin' ♪

01:45:21.540 | ♪ Stand in my ground with one eye open ♪

01:45:28.540 | ♪ This fight doesn't quite add up ♪

01:45:43.540 | ♪ Love, I thought you were free ♪

01:45:48.540 | ♪ But now I'm on the hook for all you've given me ♪

01:45:55.540 | ♪ Doesn't matter what I say or think or do ♪

01:46:01.540 | ♪ You say what you say ♪

01:46:06.540 | ♪ With the lens you're lookin' through ♪

01:46:12.540 | ♪ This fight keeps me tied to the worst in me ♪

01:46:17.540 | ♪ And it's killin' me ♪

01:46:29.540 | ♪ Killin' me ♪

01:46:35.040 | (tune playing)

01:46:37.620 | ♪ Love, I'm losin' my voice ♪

01:46:52.040 | ♪ You led me to believe I had a choice ♪

01:47:00.040 | ♪ But let's pause, retract our claws ♪

01:47:05.040 | ♪ You could take my side while I take yours ♪

01:47:12.040 | ♪ This fight keeps me tied to the worst in me ♪

01:47:27.040 | ♪ And it's killin' me ♪

01:47:32.040 | ♪ Killin' me ♪

01:47:40.040 | (tune playing)

01:47:42.620 | (tune playing)

01:47:45.200 | ♪ Love, come rescue me ♪

01:48:11.620 | ♪ I've got nowhere better I wanna be ♪

01:48:16.620 | ♪ This fight keeps me tied to the worst in me ♪

01:48:26.620 | ♪ And it's killin' me ♪

01:48:38.620 | (tune playing)

01:48:41.620 | ♪ Killin' me ♪

01:48:46.620 | ♪ Killin' me ♪

01:48:53.620 | (tune playing)

01:48:56.620 | ♪ Killin' me ♪

01:48:59.620 | (tune playing)

01:49:02.620 | (applause)

01:49:08.620 | (sighs)

01:49:10.620 | - Well, there's nowhere else I'd rather be right now.

01:49:14.620 | (laughs)

01:49:16.620 | Tal, thank you for this.

01:49:18.620 | Thank you for the private concert.

01:49:19.620 | You're amazing.

01:49:20.620 | You really are amazing.

01:49:21.620 | And it was a pleasure to meet you

01:49:23.620 | and really a pleasure to talk to you today.

01:49:26.620 | - Do I get a private concert now

01:49:28.620 | of you playing chess with yourself?

01:49:29.620 | - Yeah. (laughs)

01:49:31.620 | We're out of time, so we gotta go.

01:49:35.620 | Thanks for listening to this conversation

01:49:37.620 | with Tal Wilkenfeld.

01:49:39.620 | To support this podcast,

01:49:40.620 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

01:49:43.620 | And now, let me leave you with some words from Maya Angelou.

01:49:47.620 | "Music was my refuge.

01:49:49.620 | "I could crawl into the spaces between the notes

01:49:52.620 | "and curl my back to loneliness."

01:49:55.620 | Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

01:49:59.620 | (upbeat music)

01:50:04.620 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Tal Wilkenfeld: Music, Guitar, Bass, Jeff Beck, Prince, and Leonard Cohen | Lex Fridman Podcast #408

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