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00:00:00.000 | I am James Hong and welcome to the Surpassing Value Podcast.
00:00:15.620 | The fuel and desire for this podcast was born out of a compulsion to flesh out what's
00:00:19.740 | been going on in the midst of an ocean of megaphones that may not actually withstand
00:00:24.600 | the test of scrutiny.
00:00:26.620 | As a signpost theologian, I will do my best to filter out the impurities and point people
00:00:32.340 | in the right direction.
00:00:40.980 | In this episode, I've asked Dr. Jeremiah Chang to join me so we can talk through the
00:00:46.720 | subject of embryonic adoption.
00:00:48.740 | He'll also be featured in the next episode as well, which I dropped together.
00:00:54.020 | The reason for these episodes and future episodes with Dr. Chang is very simple.
00:00:58.940 | There have been so many developments within the area of biotechnology and infertility
00:01:05.780 | that we have to stop, breathe, and just ask ourselves before we make use of this new technology.
00:01:14.820 | What does God's word have to say about all of this?
00:01:19.720 | In particular, as Christians who profess belief that life begins at conception, and coupled
00:01:25.820 | with that, that life intrinsically has immense value, what are the ramifications of holding
00:01:33.180 | to such a view?
00:01:34.820 | To explore questions such as these, I want to publish a set of episodes that I'm going
00:01:39.920 | to refer to as the Imago Dei series.
00:01:47.300 | The first episode in the Imago Dei series will cover one man's journey through embryonic
00:01:52.440 | adoption.
00:01:54.140 | These convictions that were developed over time through the word and the spirit.
00:02:00.040 | I hope you find this episode edifying.
00:02:18.800 | Dr. Jeremiah Chang, I asked him to come on to this podcast, I'm going to ask him some
00:02:46.880 | questions and this episode is going to cover embryonic adoption, but before we get into
00:02:52.960 | some of the more technical things, I want to spend a good portion of this episode just
00:02:58.720 | talking about Jeremiah's journey because I know even as I say that word, embryonic adoption,
00:03:04.780 | a lot of people won't know what that is, what that means.
00:03:09.760 | We'll get to that a little later, but before we get to some of the minutiae of that, Jeremiah,
00:03:16.240 | I want to just start off with you just sharing your journey regarding embryonic adoption.
00:03:22.800 | Kind of start from the beginning because this is directly related to the doctrine of the
00:03:28.640 | conception of life.
00:03:29.640 | If you can kind of take us back to the beginning, the impetus that started to build some of
00:03:37.360 | the convictions that you have today that ultimately led to you adopting an embryo amongst other
00:03:44.080 | things.
00:03:45.080 | Take us back to the beginning.
00:03:46.080 | Absolutely.
00:03:47.080 | This journey sort of started several years ago, back in maybe around 2019.
00:03:54.000 | I came across a video of some people who were evangelizing, preaching the gospel to men
00:03:59.000 | and women going into abortion clinics, seeking to murder their own children through abortion.
00:04:06.400 | At that moment in time, I had not really considered much about abortion.
00:04:10.840 | I would say I was most definitely as a Christian would identify as pro-life.
00:04:15.640 | I definitely affirmed that life began at conception, that God created every child at that moment
00:04:20.520 | of conception, and so certainly identified as pro-life.
00:04:26.920 | But when I saw the video of people preaching the gospel, sharing the gospel with desperation,
00:04:33.280 | knowing that people were going in to commit a sin of such evil nature, a sin of consequences
00:04:41.080 | that could not be reversed, it began to dawn on me the gravity of what's going on.
00:04:47.800 | I think God opened my heart at that point to the reality of what's happening in our
00:04:51.000 | culture and mainly the dehumanizing of unborn children that we see.
00:04:56.960 | What really struck me was just the reality of what's really happening because as I look
00:05:01.280 | around where I live, there's several Planned Parenthoods just really locally within a 10-15
00:05:08.360 | minute drive, and to know that in each of these Planned Parenthoods, whether through
00:05:14.240 | medications or through surgery, they are slaughtering thousands upon thousands of children, image
00:05:22.480 | bearers of God.
00:05:25.360 | That struck a chord with me.
00:05:26.360 | I think God really convicted me because it made me realize that though I profess to be
00:05:33.160 | pro-life, though I profess that these children that had not been born were, in fact, created
00:05:38.520 | by Him to be His image bearers, that profession really had no weight to it prior to watching
00:05:47.960 | that video.
00:05:49.320 | I hadn't really given much consideration to the reality of abortion.
00:05:54.040 | To be honest, I didn't really pray much for these children, for these men and women who
00:05:58.320 | are seeking to abort their children.
00:06:01.600 | It seems that just mere profession was happening where I would profess a certain biblical stance
00:06:09.240 | but there would be no real manifestation of that.
00:06:13.440 | I think God really broke me at that point in my life where I saw how I could hold certain
00:06:20.040 | beliefs and yet there would be no real application to that belief or manifestation of that belief.
00:06:27.600 | When I saw what was happening in our culture and even within the professing church community,
00:06:38.600 | there is a tendency to be influenced by the culture around us that we do see unborn children
00:06:46.120 | as somewhat less than fully human.
00:06:49.160 | There certainly is the reality of unborn children being dehumanized.
00:06:53.760 | That sort of began this journey of just kind of researching more about what the scriptures
00:06:59.220 | were saying with regards to this issue.
00:07:03.040 | What was God's truth?
00:07:05.880 | As I began to research more and study the scriptures, God just reaffirmed the reality
00:07:12.260 | that every child is created by Him at the moment of conception.
00:07:18.640 | Then I began to reflect on the ramifications of that.
00:07:21.120 | If that's true, that every unborn child is truly a child, then what's happening in our
00:07:27.560 | society is horrendous.
00:07:31.440 | Really words can't describe the gravity of what's happening.
00:07:38.680 | I think God just showed me just the brokenness of this world in a new way that I had not
00:07:45.080 | yet known and grew in me a love for these children to rescue them, as Proverbs 24, 11
00:07:53.240 | talks about, to deliver those who are being taken away to death and those who are staggering
00:07:58.320 | to slaughter.
00:08:01.560 | That sort of propelled me on this journey to glorify God through the proclamation of
00:08:08.920 | God's truth in this area and then God sort of led us on this journey of how do we practically
00:08:17.520 | apply those realities.
00:08:20.580 | We became exposed to embryo adoption.
00:08:23.840 | Carrie had introduced me to a book, a memoir of a family who had adopted through multiple
00:08:28.920 | avenues.
00:08:29.920 | They had adopted internationally, domestically, and then through embryo adoption.
00:08:34.600 | That was our first real exposure to embryo adoption.
00:08:38.000 | For me, with a science background, I was intrigued by what was happening.
00:08:44.200 | That technology would even make this possible.
00:08:47.880 | To be honest, I had not even heard of embryo adoption before.
00:08:50.760 | I didn't even know it was a reality, a possibility.
00:08:55.400 | Being intrigued by the science, that's sort of what made me do more research into embryo
00:09:01.040 | adoption.
00:09:02.920 | As I began to do more research, it was very clear that embryo adoption is really just
00:09:09.880 | adoption of a child at their earliest stage of development.
00:09:13.960 | In its simplest form, that's all it is.
00:09:17.560 | It's simply like any other adoption, just adopting a child in their embryonic stage.
00:09:25.320 | The reality is there are millions of frozen embryos, frozen children.
00:09:30.480 | Many of them orphaned, many of them abandoned legally by their biological parents and in
00:09:36.080 | need of a womb to continue to live and to grow and to develop so that they could live
00:09:41.600 | outside the womb.
00:09:43.920 | God broke us for this reality that millions of His image-bearers are being frozen, abandoned,
00:09:50.920 | orphaned.
00:09:52.360 | The practical application for us was to adopt some of them.
00:09:57.800 | That's what we ended up doing.
00:09:59.080 | We went through an agency called the National Embryo Donation Center.
00:10:03.840 | We connected with them and they held very similar beliefs.
00:10:09.280 | We went ahead and back in September of 2021, we ended up transferring three embryos.
00:10:17.920 | Unfortunately, one did not survive, but we are thankful that two did.
00:10:25.360 | Gary is pregnant with twins and is due soon to deliver.
00:10:31.340 | We did end up, in our batch of adoption, there were six total embryos.
00:10:38.120 | Unfortunately, two did not survive the thawing process.
00:10:41.840 | We do have one more embryo that's kept frozen, but that's sort of where the journey has led
00:10:47.360 | us thus far.
00:10:51.200 | It's interesting because for many who develop this conviction, a lot of people will end
00:11:05.360 | up, say, going to a Planned Parenthood and sharing the gospel at a Planned Parenthood,
00:11:10.560 | which actually you do.
00:11:13.600 | As today's recording, you actually did today, joined by some other people.
00:11:19.240 | What's interesting about your journey is that, for you, it didn't stop there.
00:11:26.680 | That would have been great, the fact that you are sharing the gospel at a Planned Parenthood.
00:11:34.200 | You are trying to convince these expectant mothers to not abort their unborn child, at
00:11:44.920 | the same time sharing the good news of Jesus Christ.
00:11:49.720 | But it also developed in you this conviction for embryos.
00:11:54.640 | What's interesting is that, you didn't mention this, but I want to go ahead and mention this.
00:12:01.040 | You have two biological children of your own.
00:12:04.600 | We have Bible study together, and every other week we're at your house and they're here.
00:12:10.240 | Even when we're not at your house, we see them and they're beautiful.
00:12:16.680 | Carrie has no issues, you have no issues with respect to your bodies.
00:12:23.840 | You guys could have continued to have children naturally, however, that wasn't enough in
00:12:30.680 | the sense that you and Carrie were convicted to do something more.
00:12:37.680 | That's what led you on this journey.
00:12:39.560 | I'm saying all this because you and I have had many conversations about this before.
00:12:46.000 | I want to share that because there are people who go into and who begin to look at alternative
00:12:56.920 | ways to build a family.
00:12:59.360 | A lot of times I think God will use certain circumstances to maybe nudge you in certain
00:13:05.480 | directions, which is fine, generally speaking is fine.
00:13:10.240 | But for you and Carrie, that wasn't the case, meaning you guys could have continued to have
00:13:14.920 | children naturally.
00:13:18.760 | That's been something that's sort of been a great light, so to speak.
00:13:26.080 | It's been a very compelling testimony.
00:13:28.920 | I remember when I first heard about you and Carrie doing this, it was like, "What?"
00:13:37.680 | Right?
00:13:38.680 | I mean, it was like, "Huh?
00:13:40.360 | What?
00:13:41.360 | What?
00:13:42.360 | Oh yeah, I've heard of that.
00:13:43.360 | What is that?"
00:13:44.360 | And then you kind of investigate and you dig a little deeper into this and you're like,
00:13:49.080 | "Whoa, there is a lot here."
00:13:51.760 | And according to the biblical worldview, we say embryos, but embryo is just describing
00:13:58.720 | the stage of development.
00:13:59.720 | These are people.
00:14:00.720 | Right, Jeremiah?
00:14:01.720 | Absolutely, yeah.
00:14:02.720 | These are people.
00:14:03.720 | And I think you told me, we're not exactly sure, but the amount of frozen embryos right
00:14:08.680 | now, maybe about a million?
00:14:10.360 | Absolutely, yeah.
00:14:11.360 | And I mean, no one keeps track, but certainly most would say up north of a million.
00:14:15.920 | North of a million.
00:14:16.920 | And it's relatively expensive, but the technology is getting more efficient and we're making
00:14:23.080 | strides in this area.
00:14:24.920 | There's a lot of money here.
00:14:26.160 | So typically where there's a lot of money in a certain technology, there's more investment
00:14:30.000 | in it.
00:14:31.000 | So the chances are it could become cheaper in the future, which would mean that there
00:14:36.200 | would be more embryos.
00:14:38.080 | Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:39.080 | I mean, if you look at the numbers of those using IVF as a reproductive technology, it's
00:14:45.400 | growing exponentially and whether or not the number of families willing to adopt grows
00:14:51.760 | with it is hard to tell, but either way, there is definitely a problem of even the reality
00:14:58.680 | of these frozen children even existing.
00:15:01.160 | Right.
00:15:02.160 | Yeah, so there is this interesting dichotomy that I see with that.
00:15:08.080 | When you look at traditional adoption agencies, the children who are selected to be adopted
00:15:18.640 | prior to that, and rightly so, they have rights.
00:15:22.700 | You can't just starve them, which is a good thing, obviously, which is a good thing.
00:15:28.240 | But the embryos that we're talking about do not have rights because they're not considered
00:15:32.240 | human.
00:15:33.240 | They're considered chattel, they're considered property.
00:15:36.920 | So there's a lot that goes with that.
00:15:40.160 | There's a lot that goes with that worldview and that's part of the reason why so many
00:15:47.360 | embryos are created.
00:15:49.320 | They're not viewed as human beings.
00:15:53.880 | I know this is something that -
00:15:54.880 | Absolutely.
00:15:55.880 | Yeah.
00:15:56.880 | I mean, completely.
00:15:59.040 | The dehumanizing of unborn children we see most manifestly and obviously in abortion,
00:16:05.200 | but you see it with the treatment of embryos in IVF.
00:16:09.760 | You see it with how they're commodified.
00:16:12.360 | You see it with how they're viewed when couples go through IVF.
00:16:18.480 | They're simply treated as objects, as a means to an end, but not life, as God says they
00:16:25.880 | are.
00:16:26.880 | Yeah.
00:16:27.880 | Yeah, and it's one of those things where we're born in a world where Roe v. Wade, at least
00:16:36.080 | today, is still law.
00:16:38.320 | And so we live in a world where a huge portion of our country doesn't see unborn children
00:16:48.040 | as children.
00:16:49.040 | But then when you do a sonogram or whatever else, you see the features.
00:16:54.700 | With embryos, there aren't those humanoid features.
00:16:58.820 | So it's hard for people to just naturally think of them as embryos.
00:17:03.480 | It takes a lot more convincing.
00:17:05.400 | Absolutely.
00:17:06.400 | I mean, even for us, on an emotional level, it's difficult.
00:17:13.200 | We always have to fight against, I know Carrie and I, we had to fight against that tendency
00:17:20.320 | of just viewing our emotions as a reflection of reality.
00:17:24.720 | Because sometimes, we saw the pictures of our embryos, of those frozen children we adopted
00:17:30.440 | and they were at five days post-conception, so five days of life.
00:17:34.120 | We saw pictures of them and they don't look like how our toddlers look, they don't look
00:17:40.080 | like how our newborns look.
00:17:41.720 | But the reality is, we all look like that five days post-conception.
00:17:46.000 | That's just how human beings looked.
00:17:48.880 | And we had to fight against the tendency to allow our emotional connection to dictate
00:17:55.840 | reality.
00:17:56.840 | The reality is what God says, that these are human beings.
00:18:00.240 | Emotionally, it can be difficult, on an emotional level, in a fallen world, to really bond with
00:18:07.280 | them and love them as if you would bond and love with a newborn.
00:18:11.200 | There certainly is that difference there.
00:18:13.960 | But it's important for us, we always had to reflect that these are children.
00:18:20.640 | And that certainly was something that we had to continually pray about and ask for repentance
00:18:26.080 | at times in the way we even talked about them at times.
00:18:30.000 | And so it was a constant struggle because they physically don't appear the same way
00:18:35.800 | as how we would, maybe how our culture would say human beings ought to appear.
00:18:42.640 | It's one of those things where if you don't have a biblical worldview, then it's really
00:18:49.920 | arbitrary in terms of who gets to dictate when life begins.
00:18:54.800 | Does it begin at six weeks?
00:18:56.760 | Does it begin at eight weeks?
00:18:59.600 | Does it begin at 12 weeks?
00:19:03.240 | What's interesting is, it was even Joe Rogan, I think, he said a couple of weeks ago, he's
00:19:10.720 | pro-choice, but even he was like, "Look, when a baby starts to look like a human being,
00:19:17.080 | some of the pro-life people got something right," or something of that nature.
00:19:21.440 | But when it comes to embryos, they don't look like they're not developed enough to even
00:19:29.280 | have arms and legs.
00:19:31.240 | So we don't view them as human beings, but as you've mentioned, we all started off that
00:19:35.880 | way.
00:19:36.880 | They're seeds.
00:19:40.920 | And so if you think about a tree, everything that is necessary for a tree to grow and to
00:19:47.080 | have its roots and the trunk, the robustness of a tree, is contained in that seed.
00:19:52.200 | The seed is not any less a tree than a tree, except it just needs time and nutrients of
00:19:59.640 | that nature.
00:20:00.640 | But in a child, in an embryo, there's a unique DNA package, unlike the mom or the dad, but
00:20:07.960 | one that has never been seen before, right?
00:20:10.360 | Exactly, yes.
00:20:11.360 | I mean, that's at the moment of conception, that baby has a unique set of DNA that is
00:20:16.280 | distinct from the mother or the father.
00:20:19.960 | And every other human being, obviously.
00:20:20.960 | And every other human being, absolutely, yes.
00:20:22.520 | So it's at that moment, they are a distinct entity.
00:20:26.920 | And so you have to call it something, right?
00:20:30.560 | And God says that that's the moment that He created them.
00:20:34.440 | Yeah, you know, I want to just pause here for a moment, and I know the people listening
00:20:39.280 | to this are mostly Christian, but I want to just share some Bible verses here.
00:20:44.600 | Isaiah 44, 24 says this, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the One who formed you
00:20:51.600 | from the womb, I, the Lord, am the Maker of all things, stretching out heavens by Myself,
00:20:58.120 | and spreading out the earth alone."
00:21:00.080 | Jeremiah 1, 5 says this, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you
00:21:05.480 | were born, I consecrated you, I've appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
00:21:10.180 | Psalm 139, 13, and 16 says this, "For you formed My inward parts, you wove Me in My
00:21:18.440 | mother's womb.
00:21:20.040 | I'll give thanks to you, for I'm fearfully and wonderfully made.
00:21:24.080 | Wonderful are your works, and My soul knows it very well.
00:21:28.160 | My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in secret and skillfully wrought in the
00:21:32.440 | depths of the earth.
00:21:33.600 | Your eyes have seen My unformed substance, and in your book were all written the days
00:21:38.720 | that were ordained for Me, when as yet there was not one of them."
00:21:43.520 | But the psalmist here, David says here, in the beginning of the psalm, verse 13, beginning
00:21:48.680 | of verse 13, he says, "For you formed My inward parts, you wove Me in My mother's womb."
00:21:55.440 | So this podcast is not meant to be a defense of life at conception, but at the same time
00:22:01.160 | it is appropriate to share some of these verses.
00:22:04.140 | The Bible is absolutely clear.
00:22:05.840 | I don't know of a single, like an actual sound theologian who disagrees that life begins
00:22:14.240 | at conception.
00:22:16.120 | So the issue is not doctrinally, does life begin at conception.
00:22:23.120 | Doctrinally speaking, life begins at conception.
00:22:25.760 | The issue is what is the consequence of that.
00:22:29.480 | That is the issue.
00:22:31.280 | So I want to talk a little bit more about some of the details regarding your embryonic
00:22:37.820 | adoption.
00:22:38.820 | You mentioned it, but you adopted a family of six embryos.
00:22:43.220 | Yes.
00:22:44.220 | And I don't even know this because we've talked about this before, but these six embryos
00:22:47.940 | are siblings.
00:22:48.940 | Is that correct?
00:22:49.940 | Absolutely yes.
00:22:50.940 | Genetic siblings.
00:22:51.940 | They're genetics.
00:22:52.940 | And they were, just comment on them a little bit more.
00:22:55.520 | Sure, yeah.
00:22:56.520 | So they are of Asian descent.
00:22:59.160 | They're frozen.
00:23:00.160 | They're frozen for 10 years.
00:23:02.680 | And so that's always interesting to think about because they've been technically alive
00:23:07.840 | for 10 years, just frozen in time.
00:23:13.040 | And so we have six of them and like I was saying earlier, we did transfer three.
00:23:21.560 | The reason it came out to three was partly because of the grading process and two unfortunately
00:23:27.440 | didn't survive the thaw and so one is left.
00:23:32.160 | And the thing about embryos is that they can be frozen for a long period of time.
00:23:37.480 | And so a lot of people aren't aware that you can freeze them for essentially, as far as
00:23:45.180 | we know, an indefinite period.
00:23:47.320 | And our organization sort of got recognized last year or the year before for transferring
00:23:56.920 | a 26 year old, I believe, a 26 year old embryo that was frozen.
00:24:02.640 | And the mother was I think, 27 years old.
00:24:05.240 | So had they been born at the same time, they would have really been about a year apart.
00:24:09.440 | But because of the technology, you know, that obviously wasn't the case.
00:24:16.640 | So these children, you know, like I say, they are dehumanized in the way we see them and
00:24:22.760 | the way we treat them and I think you can see that in just the way that how long some
00:24:28.000 | of them have been frozen for.
00:24:30.680 | And that's just a result and a consequence of how we as a society have used certain technologies
00:24:38.240 | in a fallen world.
00:24:40.200 | Yeah, yeah, you know, you mentioned, I know we're going to get into that we do get into
00:24:47.440 | this in the next episode, but you did mention that two didn't survive the thawing process.
00:24:53.800 | So when when you adopt a family of six embryos, six people, they're frozen, not because of
00:25:00.480 | anything you did, but that's, that's how they survive, they're frozen.
00:25:05.800 | And so in order to implant them, they need to be thawed, they have to be frozen.
00:25:12.440 | So this thawing process is something that's a must.
00:25:15.480 | And then during this thawing process, two don't survive, so two pass away.
00:25:22.800 | And that's, that's common, right?
00:25:24.640 | That's not some mishap by by the organization that that's just, that's just the state of
00:25:29.480 | the technology today that a certain portion of embryos do not survive.
00:25:33.880 | Yeah, yes, absolutely.
00:25:35.360 | That's just the reality, unfortunately, that that our technology has provided us thus far.
00:25:41.800 | I mean, we hope that will get better.
00:25:44.320 | But the reality is that, that in nearly all cases of IVF, embryos, children are frozen
00:25:53.840 | at some point, that's just for various reasons that we won't get into now.
00:25:58.920 | But that is just generally how IVF procedures are done, it does result in the freezing of
00:26:03.840 | these children.
00:26:04.840 | And unfortunately, the reality is that when you freeze them, you will unless you plan
00:26:10.080 | to freeze them indefinitely, you will inevitably subject them to the thawing process and many
00:26:15.920 | children don't survive that process.
00:26:18.680 | So that's, that's a concern.
00:26:21.160 | And we've sort of had a grief, you know, the loss of those two children, right?
00:26:24.520 | You know, we'll never get to see what they look like.
00:26:28.160 | But we know, you know, you know, I know, people have different views on this, but but we hold
00:26:36.360 | that one day we will, we will be able to see them Yeah, absolutely.
00:26:40.720 | Yeah.
00:26:41.720 | Yeah.
00:26:42.720 | Yeah.
00:26:43.720 | And you know, I think about after they're born, which is probably going to be in less
00:26:51.560 | than a week, we don't know, but at least humanly speaking, it's probably going to be less than
00:26:55.760 | a week from the time of this recording.
00:26:59.960 | But they're gonna grow up, they're gonna have questions, right?
00:27:04.560 | And you mentioned they were Asian, but they're actually a different ethnic descent than than
00:27:08.440 | you and Carrie.
00:27:09.440 | Absolutely.
00:27:10.440 | Yes.
00:27:11.440 | Yes.
00:27:12.440 | They are Korean.
00:27:13.440 | Yes.
00:27:14.440 | And so they're gonna grow up in a in a household that loves the Lord, they're gonna grow up
00:27:18.600 | in a loving family, and they're going to be taught Scripture, they're going to be encouraged
00:27:23.480 | to repent, they're going to grow up in this, this home.
00:27:26.320 | At the same time, they're going to be asking, right?
00:27:31.080 | Where did they come from?
00:27:32.080 | They're going to be asking about these things.
00:27:36.160 | And I can't help but think that they're going to look at their mom, Carrie.
00:27:44.400 | And at some point, it's going to hit them that their mom saved them from slaughter.
00:27:54.000 | It's just gonna at some point, it just it just hits you because and that's that's not
00:27:59.560 | an exaggeration.
00:28:00.560 | Right?
00:28:01.560 | I mean, that's just a logical consequence.
00:28:05.760 | And you know, you mentioned, they can be frozen indefinitely, but you mean, humanly speaking,
00:28:10.400 | because, you know, at some point, something happens, I mean, power can go out, or, you
00:28:15.800 | know, Christ comes back, or Yeah, you know, there, you know, and if someone's got to pay
00:28:20.840 | for preservation, so let's say you pay for preservation up until the point of, you know,
00:28:26.200 | your death, I mean, at that point, you stop paying, exactly.
00:28:29.120 | So they discard the embryo.
00:28:30.440 | So and again, we talked, we're gonna talk about this, but we don't even like to use
00:28:33.920 | that word discard, discard embryos, because they're people.
00:28:37.280 | But the point is that at some point, their life does cease to be and so it's not when
00:28:46.960 | I say at some point, these children will grow up, they'll look at their mom and realize
00:28:53.560 | that their mom saved them from slaughter.
00:28:57.800 | Just the testimony that that gospel testimony of just how God has given us this understanding
00:29:08.740 | of the value of life and the implications that that arises from it, I think is going
00:29:14.680 | to be such a great testimony, you're you're you and your family are kind of like a trailblazer
00:29:20.400 | of sorts for this, but I say trailblazer because in the short time, relatively short time that
00:29:28.240 | you've been open about this and and been talking about this, you have a blog, which I'm going
00:29:32.640 | to put in the information section, but you have a blog and carries me to Facebook group
00:29:37.480 | and you've you've been writing about this and I invite everyone to go to that blog to
00:29:42.560 | read some of your thoughts on this issue.
00:29:46.640 | But in a short amount of time, I know of at least two couples, which I there I won't name,
00:29:52.360 | but but they're probably public, they're pretty public about it.
00:29:55.280 | But I know of at least two other couples who are undergoing this process.
00:30:00.500 | One other couple, she's already had gone through the implantation process.
00:30:04.960 | Yeah, you know, we're, we're praying for for that couple.
00:30:10.400 | So it's already happening.
00:30:13.760 | God is God is God is using this.
00:30:18.160 | So you know, when you when you kind of reflect on that, do you have any thoughts on that?
00:30:22.640 | Like, just, yeah, yes, I think it's been a great encouragement to know that there are
00:30:32.120 | other couples being convicted in similar ways, we know that the body is made up of different
00:30:38.080 | members, and, you know, everyone is gifted in different ways by the Spirit, and convicted
00:30:43.920 | in different ways, too.
00:30:46.040 | And so when a couple comes, and is convicted similarly, and walks with us through the process,
00:30:54.200 | and we see them walking as well through the same thing.
00:30:57.960 | It's an incredible encouragement that it's it's it's a grace of that God gives through
00:31:05.400 | the church.
00:31:09.000 | It was certainly difficult in the beginning, because we didn't really know whether we were
00:31:15.720 | like many hearing about embryo adoption and having no idea what it was, what it is about,
00:31:22.360 | and thinking all these weird thoughts about, you know, that sounds really like fiction.
00:31:28.400 | That sounds like, just very odd.
00:31:31.840 | That was us in the beginning.
00:31:34.040 | And apart from the conviction of God's word, and what he was saying, there were a lot of
00:31:38.680 | doubts in our minds whether this was even a real act of obedience, whether this was
00:31:47.040 | a proper application of scriptural truth, because at the time, we didn't really know
00:31:54.280 | people going through it.
00:31:55.440 | I mean, we just read it in a book, you know, and we didn't know if this family in the book
00:31:59.800 | was, you know, really had was like minded in many ways.
00:32:03.280 | So we just kind of got exposed to it through it, you know, through Providence, you know,
00:32:10.000 | but we didn't know.
00:32:11.000 | And then fortunately, God did bring other people alongside of us, you know, Cary connected
00:32:15.200 | with other people who had gone through it.
00:32:18.400 | And then now that our church, there's more and more people, it's become just a tremendous
00:32:24.160 | encouragement to us that God would just bring us alongside other people to rescue souls
00:32:32.160 | for his glory, physically, but but also, you know, I trust in a spiritual sense as he brings
00:32:40.040 | people who are not genetically related, these children who are not genetically related,
00:32:44.120 | but he allows families to adopt them into families that love him, and that want to raise
00:32:52.760 | children in the discipline instruction of our God, that God will save these children's
00:32:58.800 | souls.
00:33:00.360 | And so it's, it's just a profound thought to think that God would advance his kingdom
00:33:06.640 | in this way.
00:33:07.640 | Yeah, it's, it wasn't, I had no idea this was going to happen, you know, a couple years
00:33:13.680 | ago, but to think now that God is using our church in this way, and he's advancing his
00:33:20.040 | kingdom in this way, by families adopting frozen children into their families.
00:33:27.360 | Yeah, that's, that's an amazing thought.
00:33:30.040 | And I'm thankful that so many families are just have been supportive throughout our whole
00:33:34.360 | journey, you know, from the pastors, the elders, the leadership, and then just members of the
00:33:40.040 | church just incredibly supportive, just affirming that this is biblical, that this is a proper
00:33:46.760 | application of biblical truth.
00:33:49.480 | And then, you know, like you mentioned, several other families just, you know, taking that
00:33:54.320 | step to do it as well.
00:33:57.480 | Yeah.
00:33:58.480 | Yeah.
00:33:59.480 | And, you know, I, it's one of those things where, you know, sometimes when I hear stories
00:34:07.560 | like this, I hate to make qualifications, but I want to go in and do so just to be a
00:34:14.760 | little cautious here, but in no way, and I've spoken to Jeremiah many times about this issue
00:34:21.640 | and related issues, in no way does he believe or do I believe that if you've had an abortion
00:34:27.640 | in the past, that you've created an irredeemable, you've committed an irredeemable sin, a sin
00:34:34.520 | that you can't repent of, neither one of us believes that.
00:34:38.680 | In no way do Jeremiah and I believe that if you've utilized IVF before and you created
00:34:46.120 | an excess number of, in the process, there was a creation of an excess number of embryos
00:34:52.360 | and those embryos are now gone, in no way are we saying that that's also some sin that
00:34:57.840 | you cannot repent of, but that's not what we're saying.
00:35:02.200 | We're also not saying that if you don't adopt traditionally, or if you don't adopt embryonically,
00:35:09.560 | if you don't adopt that, that you don't take God seriously, we're not, we're not saying
00:35:13.080 | that either.
00:35:14.080 | And, again, I don't want what we say to die the death of a thousand qualifications as
00:35:20.360 | Vodie Bauckham would say that sometimes if you qualify things so much, you don't really
00:35:24.920 | say anything, so I kind of want to stop there, but the reason I say that is because sometimes
00:35:32.080 | when people have strong convictions, even if they go about it in a godly manner, because
00:35:40.280 | convictions can sometimes be painful, because when someone else's conviction is made clear,
00:35:49.880 | it forces the person listening to the conviction to reconcile certain things in their own heart
00:35:56.720 | and I think just a matter of, you know, just our fleshly intuition is to discredit that
00:36:03.440 | person, you know, and to pay an excess amount of attention on their tone or their delivery
00:36:11.400 | or these other things.
00:36:13.960 | And there's a time and place for that kind of criticism, but I want, the reason I want
00:36:18.960 | to say that is because I want to make it clear for the listener that Jeremiah is not saying
00:36:24.880 | that, that is not, I didn't invite him here to shame other people and I've spoken, again,
00:36:32.560 | I've spoken to him many times, he doesn't want to do that, he's very careful that he
00:36:38.040 | comes off in a proper way and so I did want to take a little bit of time to state that,
00:36:46.120 | so with that said, you know, Jeremiah, there are other things that we can talk about with
00:36:52.640 | respect to some of the more medical nuances, but this podcast is already getting a little
00:36:58.260 | bit longer, this episode is already getting a little bit longer, so I do want the listener
00:37:01.920 | to know that, especially if you go to Brigham Coming Church, hey, you're available to talk
00:37:05.640 | to, right?
00:37:06.640 | - Absolutely, yes, I love to talk to anyone and share our story about what God has done
00:37:11.320 | through us, but also, you know, with regards to future podcast episodes about related topics,
00:37:17.880 | you know, the science, as we will discuss, is very nuanced and I think it would be great
00:37:26.040 | to just continue to discuss these things and maintain a biblical worldview.
00:37:31.360 | - Yeah, yeah, don't worry, that's not Jeremiah butting himself in, I told him that we're
00:37:35.360 | gonna do future episodes together, so, so, he knew that, he knew that, but yeah, it is
00:37:41.920 | very, very nuanced, it's changing, Jeremiah tries to keep up-to-date with all the new
00:37:48.080 | information, and that's hard, you know, that's hard, but again, I invite you to follow him
00:37:54.000 | on Facebook, Kerry has a Facebook, The Littlest of Lives, The Littlest of Lives, you can talk
00:38:01.760 | to Kerry about it, you can message me about it, he also, if you go there, he also has
00:38:06.440 | a blog, you'll see it right away, I'll link to all of this, in the next episode, we're
00:38:12.560 | gonna get a little bit more into the particulars of IVF, because as, Jeremiah, you kind of
00:38:18.520 | stated this earlier, but a lot of the embryos that are available for adoption are because
00:38:24.560 | they are excess embryos from IVF, is that-- - Absolutely, yes, that's where almost all
00:38:33.000 | of the embryos that are available for adoption are created out of, they're all created out
00:38:41.200 | of IVF technology, but yes, mostly because couples do choose to create more than they
00:38:48.040 | plan to implant. - Yeah, and what's wild is that that one million is a fraction from the
00:38:58.160 | excess that are created, because the majority, correct me if I'm wrong, Jeremiah, but the
00:39:03.040 | majority are either just terminated, I'm using euphemisms here, but they're either terminated,
00:39:12.320 | or they're, I'm using air quotes, donated to science, where they will be terminated,
00:39:19.280 | or last step is they're donated to a center like this, hopefully that they'll be adopted.
00:39:26.360 | - Absolutely, yeah. - Well, Jeremiah, I wanna thank you for coming
00:39:30.400 | on, I look forward to talking about this issue a little bit more in depth, and I hope for
00:39:38.600 | the people who are listening that God has moved you, and when I say that, I don't mean
00:39:48.360 | to imply that if you're not moved to share the gospel and apply in parenthood, then you're
00:39:56.160 | not a good Christian, I don't mean to, I don't, I'm not implying that at all, 1 Corinthians
00:40:01.440 | 12, Romans 12 makes it clear that God has given the body differing gifts, and some people
00:40:08.640 | God will raise up to just be prayer warriors, their gift is, they just pray, they pray and
00:40:13.920 | pray and pray and pray, and I hope God will raise up more prayer warriors, but there are
00:40:18.480 | some that are listening to this that God will raise up, and say, you know what, I wanna
00:40:24.000 | share the gospel, I'd apply in parenthood too.
00:40:27.080 | There are others who will just, you know what, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna engage in conversation
00:40:32.760 | with my coworkers about this issue, and hope that this is gonna be an entrance way for
00:40:36.680 | the gospel, or, you know, you affirm and you support the work that people who are passionate
00:40:46.560 | about this are doing, and you might be involved in something else at church, you are involved
00:40:53.040 | in, for example, like the avian ministry, or you're involved in, you know, cleanup ministry,
00:40:58.800 | and we can just glory in our God together, that God would raise up some people to do
00:41:04.320 | this, and some people to do that, and that we are all striving together, differing gifts,
00:41:10.160 | but we're all striving together, standing as one man for the gospel, for the proclamation
00:41:17.520 | of the gospel, and so, I know that's Jeremiah, I know Jeremiah, that's your heart, that's
00:41:22.400 | my heart, that we want to see truth proclaimed, and we wanna see unity affirmed in the body
00:41:30.200 | of Christ, so, anything else you wanna share before we end this episode, Jeremiah?
00:41:35.320 | - No, I think we're gonna cover them in the future episodes.
00:41:38.240 | - All right, yeah, so I'm looking forward to that, well, Jeremiah, thank you very much,
00:41:43.360 | and I will see you guys later.
00:41:52.320 | I hope this episode was helpful to many, this is a very difficult topic, and anyone searching
00:41:58.960 | for answers, and ultimately conviction on this issue is going to have to do some hard
00:42:03.520 | work, lots of digging, lots of investigating, searching the scriptures in prayer, as stated,
00:42:10.360 | I've included the Facebook group and Jeremiah's blog in the info section, I'm really hoping
00:42:15.920 | this will serve as a springboard of sorts, for anyone that's looking, I get it, this
00:42:24.960 | is going to be difficult.
00:42:28.560 | Thanks for making it to the end, I'll continue to try to make the journey worth it, to Him
00:42:34.720 | in the honor, glory, and eternal dominion, James Hongo.
00:43:02.320 | (upbeat music)
00:43:10.280 | (upbeat music)