back to indexPastoral Ministry Panel Q&A - Tom Patton, George Crawford, Carl Hargrove, and Bill Shannon
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It is a joy to hear men sing who love Christ. 00:00:24.940 |
Now we're gonna come down to implementing it. 00:00:40.000 |
when you're fighting spiritual forces of darkness? 00:00:51.520 |
I've had the privilege of serving as an elder here 00:00:56.400 |
We have a saying here that some of our elders 00:01:06.600 |
using a very non-biblical term, are lay elders. 00:01:13.300 |
With me, and I'm gonna ask the gentleman to give, 00:01:22.000 |
name, rank, and serial number, starting with Mr. Hargrove. 00:01:36.560 |
And what areas of ministry do you do here at Grace? 00:01:39.800 |
Grace Advance is a ministry where we help churches 00:01:44.200 |
in North America plant churches and revitalize. 00:01:52.960 |
Some history with Grace Church, just briefly. 00:02:00.520 |
to plant a church, and did that for 20 years, 00:02:14.040 |
- Tom Patton, I'm a pastor here at Grace Church. 00:02:19.520 |
along with John Street, who's right over there 00:02:21.200 |
talking as I'm talking, which is interesting. 00:02:32.620 |
Since 1991 is when I came here, been on staff since 2001. 00:02:37.040 |
And also teach at the seminary, I teach preaching there. 00:02:40.320 |
And I'm a part of Grace Advance, of Carl's ministry as well. 00:02:44.360 |
And we all kind of do a lot of things around here. 00:02:51.320 |
- One of the hats that Tom wears is that of Ranger Joe. 00:03:04.720 |
- Ranger Joe episodes, you can find them on Grace Media. 00:03:10.140 |
- I've been telling him, Mr. Rogers, move over. 00:03:35.420 |
I got up here late, but I can't get through that courtyard 00:03:45.180 |
I've been here for 42 years at Grace Community Church. 00:03:57.860 |
We try to train folks that can help with counseling, 00:04:03.460 |
or it be individuals in Bible study, whatever it is. 00:04:22.440 |
Because Carl doesn't let me tell him what to do. 00:04:36.540 |
One of them, my son-in-law's down in the main sanctuary, 00:04:44.660 |
and he's the elder of his church that he goes to. 00:04:50.380 |
by looking at what his adult children are doing. 00:04:53.020 |
And there's been a history of faithfulness here. 00:04:59.660 |
My secular world employment was as a prosecuting attorney. 00:05:22.780 |
That is one of the most important ministries we have here, 00:05:25.780 |
and probably one of the least known ministries internally, 00:05:46.260 |
Book of Malachi, my name will be great among the nations. 00:05:54.020 |
Now, what are we wanting to accomplish today? 00:06:01.140 |
that we can encourage ourselves in the process 00:06:33.300 |
with some questions that we'll ask internally. 00:06:38.820 |
I'm gonna have three somewhat abstract questions, 00:06:43.620 |
and I'll move to three very practical questions 00:06:47.140 |
that if you've been in ministry for any length of time, 00:06:57.740 |
My son, Steve, who's in pastoral ministry in Kansas, 00:07:11.820 |
Make sure, and I've already asked the guys to screen them, 00:07:21.340 |
We all know of guys that come to the mic under Q&A, 00:07:29.980 |
And we'll try to ask them, we'll try to get them. 00:07:42.820 |
that are from the heart, that are really on your mind. 00:08:03.240 |
for each of these men, many of them I've not seen in years. 00:08:14.600 |
that has brought them to this particular point. 00:08:39.700 |
Now, in keeping with the theme of the conference, 00:08:45.500 |
Keep in mind that it needs to be approaching the idea 00:09:00.120 |
Over the last five to 10 years in our culture, 00:09:11.880 |
in the church at large, and at Grace Community Church, 00:09:35.760 |
Yeah, well, I think you go back to just that the truth. 00:09:40.120 |
So all of the departures are gonna find their origin 00:09:46.680 |
So I just think it's been manifest in different ways, 00:09:49.320 |
whether it be manifest in how we understand gender, 00:09:52.460 |
whether it's been manifest in how we understand 00:10:00.400 |
whether it's manifest in what we believe about Christ. 00:10:05.800 |
and the origin is based in a denial of an absolute truth. 00:10:09.160 |
You know, it's the question that Pilate asked, 00:10:16.400 |
because the church, according to Paul's words to Timothy, 00:10:22.080 |
the church is the pillar and support of a truth. 00:10:32.220 |
and all of its implications that come with it. 00:10:35.980 |
So it's just the manifestations of disobedience are varying. 00:10:41.860 |
- Everything, like I said, from how do we understand a man 00:10:45.580 |
to same sex attraction to the list goes on and on and on. 00:10:55.840 |
what truth is, Mark Zakevich is doing a seminar right now 00:11:04.240 |
- No, I was just gonna piggyback off of what Carl said. 00:11:06.360 |
I think, you know, when you think of the culture, 00:11:09.600 |
the departure from the truth is probably most manifested 00:11:12.280 |
in the fact that they no longer really hold to a truth. 00:11:16.840 |
They no longer really hold to some of the things 00:11:20.600 |
I'd say, generally speaking, it's more permissiveness 00:11:33.720 |
It says in the scripture that the Holy Spirit, 00:11:41.000 |
And so it seems as if that restraint is becoming less 00:11:44.980 |
So without the particulars of how that looks in the world, 00:11:48.460 |
I think my mind goes to how it looks like in the church, 00:11:51.780 |
what it's been the big effect over the last 10 years. 00:11:55.340 |
I remember when my dad was in the church as a young man, 00:12:00.340 |
there was always a sense that maybe the church 00:12:08.920 |
that's not necessarily the case, it was more masked. 00:12:12.320 |
More and more, the church was kind of just being moral 00:12:20.920 |
Church discipline, we think, or I used to think, 00:12:22.960 |
was something that was a part of church history 00:12:28.920 |
He said, you know what, I don't remember church discipline 00:12:37.520 |
we've come more advanced in some of our reformed circles 00:12:44.360 |
But you see more permissiveness in the culture, 00:12:46.720 |
and I think you see, at least in our circles, 00:12:50.160 |
more seriousness about the doctrines of grace 00:12:59.360 |
maybe a little superficially, like this is an avalanche, 00:13:04.000 |
But it seems like the storm has been building 00:13:07.280 |
So I think Martin Lloyd-Jones is the one that said, 00:13:13.760 |
because the Bible tells us that these things will happen. 00:13:16.560 |
I'm not sitting in shock thinking, how can this be? 00:13:29.480 |
and we can prove that by going to the scripture 00:13:31.600 |
and showing that these things have been predicted 00:13:36.580 |
and I think that's a helpful way to look at it. 00:13:46.120 |
by helping them to realize that this is nothing 00:13:51.120 |
>> Right, and I think they find comfort in their pastor 00:14:07.420 |
and the book of Daniel that we found out from Abner. 00:14:09.840 |
These things are to make us shock-proof, if you will. 00:14:12.720 |
We might be surprised, but we're not shocked. 00:14:23.120 |
dealing with situations where people have been scarred. 00:14:30.520 |
>> This idea of what's coming into the church, 00:14:33.720 |
I think is what's been in the culture for a while, 00:14:35.760 |
is the cancel culture is starting to come into the church. 00:14:39.240 |
Some of you men start to feel that pressure from people. 00:14:45.360 |
or how the church is doing it and those kinds of things. 00:14:48.120 |
And they bring those questions in all the time. 00:14:50.800 |
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the truth, 00:14:54.400 |
but they're hammering away at you ever so slowly, 00:14:59.340 |
and I think that's part of what Satan's plan is, 00:15:10.120 |
And the only way to do that is through the truth. 00:15:12.600 |
I think of 1 Timothy 1.5, the goal of our instruction 00:15:20.840 |
We need to keep teaching them, and teaching them, 00:15:23.440 |
and teaching them, even when they don't listen. 00:15:32.480 |
"We are not listening to you in the counseling room." 00:15:47.480 |
But, I mean, that's part of what the people wanna do. 00:15:57.820 |
Now, it's interesting that you mentioned Satan. 00:16:03.880 |
Luther's commentary on the book of Galatians. 00:16:18.520 |
and that's added in the King James and the New King James. 00:16:25.120 |
"Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth 00:16:30.540 |
"was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?" 00:16:34.560 |
Any thoughts as to the extent to which this departure, 00:16:39.560 |
this rejection of the truth, is due to the evil one, 00:16:48.240 |
- Well, we know that society is under the god of this world. 00:16:55.360 |
That's why when a person comes to face 2 Corinthians 4, 00:17:10.600 |
because they walked in the futility of their mind. 00:17:15.880 |
So we can see that there is an influence that is there. 00:17:28.040 |
The ultimate goal would be to thwart the plans of God, 00:17:30.240 |
but we all know, praise God, that that cannot happen, right? 00:18:12.680 |
Ultimately, the devil is, the scripture is clear, 00:18:15.240 |
he is a liar, and he has been a liar from the beginning. 00:18:33.160 |
- Which is the opposite of what we're talking about. 00:18:43.000 |
So Christ told us that's his very nature to do that. 00:18:56.560 |
And this is why Ephesians chapter six tells us what? 00:18:59.640 |
That we're not fighting against flesh and blood. 00:19:09.120 |
that these spiritual fortresses, we bring down. 00:19:21.600 |
- Ultimately, the key approach is bringing truth to bear. 00:19:38.240 |
- You kind of already went through ordination, George. 00:19:42.760 |
- Always be ready to speak and give a defense 00:19:48.720 |
- No, I was just gonna say, in our particular context, 00:19:53.280 |
because of the fact we are just down the street 00:19:55.640 |
from one of the largest charismatic churches in California, 00:20:01.960 |
that people have come and done a lot of confessing blame 00:20:12.540 |
and speaking about, well, isn't that from the temptations 00:20:16.400 |
which wage war in you, and isn't that also your own sin 00:20:24.880 |
from emphasis on, as Sanford and Sons used to say, 00:20:29.120 |
the devil made me do it, if you remember that. 00:20:45.000 |
that's a real thing that sometimes our church, I believe, 00:20:47.960 |
can almost discount because we're trying to overcorrect 00:20:51.440 |
from people who think that there's so much influence 00:21:31.280 |
So instead of overcompensating and trying to say, 00:21:36.320 |
we have to have an appreciation for the fact, 00:21:40.920 |
Even in the Lord's Prayer, many translations will say, 00:21:45.640 |
keep us from temptation and deliver us from evil 00:21:51.240 |
- So you have to be mindful that there is a balance in that, 00:21:54.400 |
and you're always kind of never wanting to discount 00:21:57.280 |
the power of that creature, as was described earlier today, 00:22:16.920 |
maybe men that are thinking they'd like to be elders. 00:22:32.440 |
wanna become members and they can't give a testimony 00:22:34.880 |
or they don't know the answer to some simple questions. 00:22:39.960 |
When we just give 'em a rubber stamp and let 'em in, 00:22:45.080 |
So you have to protect that church as much as possible, 00:22:52.460 |
even one-on-one, wait a minute, that's not true. 00:23:00.780 |
"I went to sleep and I believed I was in heaven. 00:23:03.400 |
"I saw Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, and I became a Christian." 00:23:06.940 |
I knew right away he didn't become a Christian, 00:23:15.020 |
So make sure of protecting the church first, right up front. 00:23:18.220 |
- Acts 20, Paul writes to the Ephesian elders, 00:23:22.340 |
"Keep watch over yourself, keep watch over the church." 00:23:30.860 |
"From among yourselves there will arise men," 00:23:41.500 |
He says, "From among yourselves there will be men 00:23:54.780 |
If you want any more thought on this information, 00:23:59.800 |
I would recommend, first of all, John's sermon, 00:24:03.520 |
November of 2017, on this particular text, Galatians 3.1. 00:24:14.200 |
but we do not want to ignore the reality of it. 00:24:21.560 |
we've talked about this already, Romans 1.25. 00:24:26.560 |
We're looking at a world that has perverted good and evil. 00:24:32.100 |
Isaiah 5.20, Malachi 2.17, people are saying, 00:24:40.720 |
They're calling that which the scripture says evil, 00:24:44.040 |
they're calling it good, and they're doing the converse. 00:24:47.260 |
How do we cope and respond to that within the church? 00:24:53.920 |
- Again, you still have to come back to teaching the truth. 00:25:03.000 |
I think you need to be upfront with your people 00:25:09.880 |
is somebody came here and visited Grace Church. 00:25:25.480 |
- And we say, "You have a problem with that?" 00:25:33.680 |
The only thing that makes it valid right here 00:25:41.800 |
- And that, by the way, is the basis of all of our counsel. 00:25:59.280 |
We will not speak beyond what God has called us to say. 00:26:05.240 |
- Well, just listening to what you were saying, 00:26:11.480 |
and we say that no, that's defined by scripture. 00:26:15.520 |
So it does go back even to what Bill's talking about, 00:26:18.520 |
which is to be known by being a man of the word. 00:26:22.320 |
And what I've noticed is that it's very, very easy 00:26:36.300 |
and to stray away from just going to the Bible, 00:26:39.520 |
because people might think, well, they know this, 00:26:41.840 |
they've heard this, this is not something that, 00:26:47.580 |
But in my experience, when you don't do that, 00:27:28.440 |
and it's there so people don't even have an excuse, 00:27:38.320 |
because sometimes it's even more effective for me 00:27:40.400 |
to have them hear their own voice speak God's word, 00:27:45.080 |
so they have to actually take the time to do it, 00:27:47.340 |
it's a simple little technique someone told me years ago, 00:27:53.240 |
how do you discern between what is good and what is evil? 00:27:58.840 |
and we believe that, but sometimes through time urgency, 00:28:14.240 |
where you're not trying to quote-unquote judge them, 00:28:17.280 |
that you might talk politics, you might talk philosophy, 00:28:26.520 |
I would just really say that the most relatable thing 00:28:36.320 |
- Carl, yeah, let's just kind of be direct here, 00:28:40.880 |
it's the word of God, we all agree with that, 00:28:43.700 |
that's why you came here with 5,000 other men 00:28:48.480 |
because you knew you would hear the word of God, 00:28:53.080 |
you would notice if you were to go through Timothy, 00:29:01.720 |
either said specifically or by clear inference. 00:29:11.440 |
so you're instructing, which means you're teaching. 00:29:17.920 |
love, pure heart, good conscience, sincere faith. 00:29:22.000 |
Notice verse 15, it's a trustworthy statement, 00:29:36.400 |
king, eternal, immortal, invisible, only God, 00:30:06.440 |
Chapter 315, how you should conduct yourselves. 00:30:11.440 |
Now, this is your behavior in the household of God, 00:30:15.480 |
which is that pillar in support of the truth. 00:30:20.880 |
the latter times, we've already talked about that. 00:30:28.280 |
Again, there is doctrinal misappropriation error 00:30:43.160 |
and the sound doctrine which you've been following. 00:30:55.160 |
and to your teaching, he says, and then it ends, 00:30:58.160 |
I think the last one is chapter six, verse two. 00:31:01.180 |
Teach and prescribe and preach these principles. 00:31:14.700 |
And yet, there is a sense in which those of us 00:31:18.480 |
who are in leadership find ourselves again and again 00:31:24.000 |
In fact, I came across a quote in none other than Augustine, 00:31:29.000 |
which says if you have any position of leadership, 00:31:41.520 |
Don't let them get out of your thinking, ever. 00:31:53.560 |
- Number one, pastor, my wife has just been diagnosed 00:31:58.560 |
with fill in the blank, incurable disease of some sort, 00:32:17.120 |
Some have had that, heard those words, trust God. 00:32:22.120 |
I was in a foreign country and heard those words, trust God. 00:32:43.680 |
but ultimately, you first start with their faith. 00:32:51.160 |
it can become such a difficult thing at times. 00:32:54.960 |
You have somebody in your church for a long time, 00:32:58.540 |
and as you look at that, you might sit there and go, 00:33:03.520 |
before we get into the particulars of your situation. 00:33:14.680 |
I mean, you know that there's goats and sheep in your flock. 00:33:24.520 |
those obstacles become not so incredibly difficult anymore 00:33:35.520 |
into the specific application of, yes, like you said, 00:33:43.200 |
I taught through the book of Job for 60 messages, 00:33:56.560 |
by all these different teachers giving him the implication 00:34:00.920 |
and therefore, this is why this has happened. 00:34:02.760 |
And at the end, God comes in in the famous monologue, 00:34:07.440 |
longest portion of God speaking in the Bible, 00:34:12.680 |
He never tells him why his family was destroyed. 00:34:15.360 |
He never tells him why his health was devastated. 00:34:17.800 |
He never tells him why everything was taken from him. 00:34:25.720 |
That's a lesson that I've actually taught to people 00:34:28.120 |
in the hospital when their little girl was sick 00:34:31.740 |
and has a form of cancer, and the in-laws have come 00:34:36.640 |
And I say because God says the answer to the issue 00:34:40.880 |
And then we'd have to go down the elevator with them, 00:34:43.880 |
walk them to their parking space, and they're silenced 00:34:48.520 |
because they think I've been so insensitive and so harsh 00:34:56.280 |
This is God's will, and we know he's righteous and good, 00:35:02.160 |
So it puts us in a situation where making sure, 00:35:05.160 |
first, they're saved to the degree that we can, 00:35:09.720 |
and then actually being prepared for being misunderstood 00:35:16.720 |
>> Can I say something to this? >> Yes, go ahead. 00:35:36.280 |
and I've had this particular pastoring for those 20 years. 00:35:49.640 |
Don't think that somehow you have to walk them through 00:35:55.640 |
Then you're an expositor now because you've given them 00:36:03.200 |
Cry with somebody for a while is what you need to do. 00:36:06.520 |
>> That's the best thing that Job's friends did. 00:36:31.220 |
We've had people who have gone through that route. 00:36:36.700 |
We've been meeting for about something like 11 years. 00:36:43.340 |
We took stock this week to try to think through. 00:36:48.220 |
you will become a theologian, one way or another. 00:36:51.900 |
You will either be a theologian that is solidly biblical 00:36:56.900 |
and right and good, or you'll be a bad theologian. 00:37:02.740 |
So, focusing on truth is sometimes extremely important. 00:37:10.240 |
This last time we met, we looked at the importance 00:37:14.180 |
of being created in the image of God, the imago dei. 00:37:22.380 |
We remember that they are in the image of God. 00:37:30.580 |
Sometimes it's the only help that you're going to have 00:37:38.820 |
And this is actually a pastor who's giving the question. 00:37:47.780 |
Time away from my family, time away from my kids. 00:37:54.260 |
I poured out my heart, and I go into the office 00:37:58.860 |
on Monday morning, and I've got half a dozen emails 00:38:14.160 |
Now I open up the newspaper, or I turn on the internet, 00:38:19.200 |
and I see my name being just ripped to shreds. 00:38:33.040 |
- I'm gonna do something a little bit different here. 00:38:41.380 |
'cause I'm just gonna do what Carl says and be silent. 00:38:47.300 |
- I would, I really want to, I'm not trying to forgo it, 00:38:50.500 |
but I think we only have like 20 something minutes. 00:38:55.660 |
and if that's your question, I'd love to answer it, 00:38:57.860 |
but I'd love to know what's on your all's hearts, too. 00:39:01.740 |
I want it to be at least partially towards you as well. 00:39:08.100 |
and ask something for us for the last 20 minutes 00:39:10.640 |
so that we can, I want to know what's on your heart, 00:39:19.820 |
The longer the email, the shorter the response. 00:39:34.340 |
handles a divisive person, or identifies a divisive person 00:39:40.740 |
And especially, too, if they want to come back 00:39:49.660 |
And as far as the, when they first come to Grace Church, 00:39:53.480 |
I've heard good that they don't have to subscribe 00:39:57.320 |
to everything in the doctrinal statement perfectly, 00:40:13.260 |
- I think for the divisive person, if I may speak to that, 00:40:15.880 |
I mean, Titus 3.10, they would be put out of the church. 00:40:20.540 |
- Yeah, that person who is divisive, you know, divisive. 00:40:34.340 |
Those kinds of things, they should be put out of the church. 00:40:42.980 |
Because you don't want the church to be divided. 00:40:51.380 |
The elders are gonna have to sit down with him 00:40:53.420 |
and talk with him, or her, and work through the issues. 00:40:56.580 |
It's not just one sitting that you spend 15, 20, 00:41:02.100 |
You need to spend time, because you wanna make sure 00:41:08.260 |
And some of 'em don't understand that sometimes. 00:41:14.260 |
You know, if you wanna believe in certain things, 00:41:23.060 |
It's like, I had this couple for counseling once, 00:41:30.860 |
The guy gave me his testimony, and they said, 00:41:42.940 |
I said, "We'll get to that, okay, we'll get to that. 00:41:57.580 |
- Well, you asked a question about re-matriculation. 00:42:03.700 |
But what Bill is saying, observation based on 00:42:06.420 |
the gravity of why they left, and that may take longer, 00:42:16.740 |
We wanna restore, Galatians, we wanna restore. 00:42:28.840 |
Calvin points this out, that will require quicker action 00:42:33.840 |
to protect the flock on the part of the elders. 00:42:36.440 |
- A lady once said to me that she didn't believe 00:42:44.760 |
I said, "Well, you can become a member still." 00:42:48.460 |
"But you just don't go around professing that as doctrine." 00:42:54.940 |
I said, "Can you please tell me what I believe?" 00:42:59.740 |
And she said, "Well, I realize speaking in tongues 00:43:06.240 |
we believe that if you're part of the body of Christ, 00:43:08.340 |
you, at least in theory, should be able to be a part 00:43:13.660 |
That does not mean that you're going to be asked 00:43:15.840 |
to teach a Bible study or lead a fellowship group. 00:43:36.060 |
there's definitely big theological differences 00:43:42.540 |
of like Romans 14 issues of conscience issues. 00:43:44.900 |
So, how do you stand for the truth dogmatically, 00:43:47.980 |
but also leave the door open for disagreements 00:43:51.740 |
on other matters and then disagreements on conscience issues? 00:43:54.740 |
- Well, something that it's kind of alluded to 00:44:00.300 |
we have a statement here that's been very specifically 00:44:13.420 |
So, that's a very important distinction right off the bat. 00:44:24.260 |
that we'd love to have him come here and preach, 00:44:39.460 |
'cause there's no way he'd wanna join a church 00:44:45.840 |
so we can, as Bill said, as Carl has alluded to as well, 00:44:49.600 |
you can come here and believe our soteriology, 00:44:59.300 |
and it's always eschatology and it's always the gifts, 00:45:08.460 |
Then we try to say we're all in process of learning. 00:45:15.520 |
I think this might be what you're asking, I'm not sure, 00:45:22.700 |
or you wanna teach a Bible study, like we said, 00:45:32.700 |
People go, well, you're the only Reformed church 00:45:34.620 |
that's in the neighborhood or in the area, maybe the state, 00:45:37.460 |
and we're sitting there saying, well, that might be true, 00:45:49.060 |
and not major on those things that are secondary 00:46:01.920 |
That's through hours of counseling and talking to people 00:46:06.720 |
- 1 Corinthians 15 talks about matters of first importance. 00:46:13.180 |
and you can see some of the matters outlined there 00:46:22.620 |
- Yeah, I would love to know from each one of you, 00:46:26.020 |
just like, y'all have been doing pastoral ministry 00:46:36.660 |
and why you have chosen to stay in it for so long. 00:46:40.700 |
- Oh, well, that's fairly simple in one sense. 00:46:57.500 |
things that I was gearing to do since I was about so tall, 00:47:04.580 |
And so it sought me out, and then what happened in life 00:47:09.420 |
is that there was a transference of what I was desiring 00:47:16.620 |
And that desire now overwhelms me, and it keeps me. 00:47:27.540 |
So now, because it's been shed abroad in our hearts 00:47:36.660 |
"No soldier in active service entangles himself 00:47:43.040 |
"so that he may please the one who enlisted him." 00:47:46.900 |
So now that I've been enlisted as a new soldier, 00:47:54.540 |
the Lord says, "No, you will fight another type of battle." 00:48:07.740 |
You cannot go AWOL, which means you're away without leave. 00:48:20.900 |
It may not be in the same capacity, but I'll still do it. 00:48:38.420 |
I got saved to Montreal, Canada on a business trip. 00:48:42.220 |
And I had no idea what that meant, getting saved. 00:48:44.800 |
I mean, I had no idea what it meant, reading a Bible. 00:49:04.220 |
So I got somebody to start speaking into my life, 00:49:09.460 |
By the way, the lady in Canada's pointed me to this church. 00:49:25.540 |
I said to my wife, "I think I've been called." 00:49:29.780 |
She says, "I don't know how to play the piano." 00:49:40.980 |
- And she said, "I don't have a flower dress." 00:49:47.260 |
I stay because I see God's people being helped. 00:49:52.980 |
Stop from getting a divorce, stop from doing sin. 00:49:58.040 |
And my wife and I rejoice with that regularly in our home 00:50:01.780 |
on a Sunday afternoon when we have people over. 00:50:12.260 |
I'm sure that's why you're asking the question. 00:50:14.620 |
I wanted to be a pastor when I was five years old. 00:50:18.300 |
The only problem was I wasn't saved till I was 30. 00:50:23.960 |
So I think for me it's been trying to catch up 00:50:32.740 |
- But honestly, if you have a heart for people, 00:50:37.940 |
you're gonna be hurt, you're gonna be wounded. 00:50:41.740 |
In fact, I'd say the closer sometimes you feel 00:50:44.500 |
that you're getting to a breakthrough with someone, 00:50:47.360 |
the quicker you can find out that they will malign you, 00:50:54.260 |
But there are those moments where God supports you 00:51:00.500 |
and also from others coming alongside from time to time. 00:51:03.440 |
In fact, just real quick, I was just getting my coffee. 00:51:07.820 |
And this young man comes up to me, he says, "Pastor Tom." 00:51:12.940 |
He goes, "Well, time has certainly been hard on you 00:51:23.320 |
"Be warm and be filled and get out of my way." 00:51:25.060 |
No, I didn't say that. (congregation laughing) 00:51:31.020 |
And he said, "I was in your preaching lab 10 years ago, 00:51:36.020 |
"and when I came up to preach, you told me to sit down 00:51:45.060 |
And then he said, "Thank you so much for telling me that, 00:51:48.980 |
So sometimes it takes a while for that to come, 00:51:54.060 |
Of course, by God's grace, I didn't remember who he was, 00:52:06.620 |
- I was in college, and I distinctly remember the evening. 00:52:10.380 |
Somehow or other, one evening, the passage, John 21, 00:52:22.380 |
and I have never fully been able to get that out of my mind. 00:52:27.020 |
And that, I think God used to start pointing me 00:52:31.820 |
I'd been a preacher's kid, and yet, at that point in time, 00:52:39.740 |
how it all gets implemented, but that passion is there, 00:52:48.000 |
despite the fact that some men connive themselves 00:52:50.140 |
into the position, the Holy Spirit makes men elders. 00:52:54.740 |
And when we are put in that position, we stay at our post. 00:52:58.820 |
- One last thought, real quick, though, before he leaves. 00:53:08.140 |
- And I'll tell you what else, since about calling, 00:53:12.260 |
to the seminary, Albert Martin, the call to the ministry. 00:53:23.220 |
- And if you start listening to Albert Martin, 00:53:25.060 |
you wonder whether you should go into the ministry. 00:53:36.700 |
you start reading the Bible, and this is amazing, right? 00:53:40.580 |
and then you start discovering all these different truths 00:53:44.220 |
and theologies and just deepening that, right? 00:53:50.540 |
You've read your Bible 10 years, 10 times, 20 times, 00:53:54.820 |
maybe 30 times, and sometimes you kind of get 00:54:10.500 |
but I'm reading it for my soul, for my spirit. 00:54:22.620 |
And we address the issue of how does one maintain 00:54:30.220 |
And one thing is that you have to take care of your own soul. 00:54:43.220 |
in Psalm 37 and four, delight yourself in the Lord. 00:54:47.060 |
You have to believe what the psalmist said in Psalm 27, 00:55:04.700 |
for an academic exercise and even to prepare a servant. 00:55:09.700 |
You do it because first, you are a child of God. 00:55:17.560 |
And so I have to nurture my life just as a child. 00:55:22.380 |
And what happens with preachers, they can learn too much 00:55:26.060 |
and they forget what is absolutely important, 00:55:47.860 |
and I don't have, like Whitfield said, tears in my eyes. 00:55:57.360 |
that he would read like just 40 chapters of the Bible 00:56:03.020 |
And this is Owen as well with his communion with God. 00:56:08.020 |
So we do this out of communion with the living God 00:56:37.940 |
I'll listen to six or seven sermons that I have to critique. 00:56:41.260 |
My whole Saturday is called Sanctification Saturday. 00:56:51.100 |
is not the fact that they didn't get the point, 00:56:59.380 |
I go, how much time did you spend really grappling 00:57:14.060 |
I think John MacArthur says he has two positions 00:57:15.860 |
when he studies, either this position or this position. 00:57:21.500 |
And I said so many people don't spend enough time 00:57:23.700 |
with their back contemplating their own life in the text. 00:57:28.500 |
and I'm not trying to make anything about me, 00:57:35.460 |
that needs God's grace every moment of my life, 00:57:38.620 |
So if you can go through a sermon and be dry, 00:57:51.860 |
because otherwise you might be effective in word, 00:58:11.420 |
So you study the word of God because it's priceless. 00:58:15.860 |
I'm gonna grow to be the man of God that he wants me to be. 00:58:32.620 |
You see God's masterfulness in putting things together. 00:58:36.820 |
That's what you have to see is another aspect of God. 00:58:43.380 |
that it can just give you a different picture of who he is. 00:58:46.700 |
- One of the things that I love most about our pastor, 00:58:56.620 |
He still is excited about finding new things. 00:59:02.380 |
who have the chance to be close to him and to talk to him. 00:59:05.300 |
As a practical matter, you're gonna laugh when I say this, 00:59:08.580 |
allow yourself the luxury of periodically buying a new Bible. 00:59:12.460 |
Sometimes it's enjoyable just to be able to look at that, 00:59:29.060 |
And it's actually in the imperative mode, verse 14. 00:59:40.720 |
"and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 00:59:44.720 |
"and how from childhood you have been acquainted 00:59:47.860 |
"with the sacred writings which are able to make you wise 00:59:52.100 |
"for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ." 01:00:05.920 |
We have the expression at times in our culture, 01:00:09.300 |
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness. 01:00:21.060 |
Aside from the scriptures, for you as pastors, 01:00:23.620 |
what would be the one book that you would commend 01:00:29.980 |
- Depends upon what week you're talking about. 01:00:37.340 |
One of 'em, "The Power of Christian Contentment" 01:00:51.580 |
I've got one now about a guy called R.C. Sproul. 01:00:57.020 |
and I'm reading that, that Nichols put together. 01:01:02.840 |
And then the war with children just came out, 01:01:14.780 |
that stands out as perhaps the most important thing 01:01:20.060 |
- Outside of the Bible, whatever I'm reading. 01:01:25.300 |
because I have so many that I've been through. 01:01:30.000 |
If you wanna talk about missions, I've got books. 01:01:31.740 |
You wanna talk about history, I've got books. 01:01:38.540 |
- Let's get to Tom, and then we'll get to you. 01:01:42.580 |
No, without a doubt, it's the Martin Lloyd-Jones' book, 01:01:56.700 |
with the most famous sermon our Lord ever gave, 01:02:08.960 |
Because even just going through the Beatitudes, 01:02:14.540 |
and you'll start to just meditate, and it's wonderful. 01:02:42.560 |
probably the most overriding influence over the years, 01:02:50.800 |
- And read both the first one and the last one. 01:02:58.580 |
A sense of humor that you couldn't use today. 01:03:02.420 |
In his last edition, reasoning precise, deep, intense. 01:03:15.780 |
that I had stumbled into myself without realizing 01:03:42.040 |
you'll find a great abuse of church discipline. 01:03:45.100 |
Dalamore writes about how Wesley disciplined a woman out 01:03:49.280 |
because she did not respond to his romantic overtures. 01:03:52.000 |
Sense of humor, but you'll see how truth gets ironed out. 01:04:01.640 |
- Yeah, let's not have you come back next year. 01:04:06.020 |
But how truth gets ironed out over the course of time. 01:04:16.460 |
and then go back to another book on church doctrine. 01:04:19.880 |
Studies in the Sermon on the Mount is fantastic. 01:04:32.660 |
top recommended Puritan, let's give me a choice of names. 01:04:50.300 |
Thank you for the fun that we've had this afternoon. 01:04:57.980 |
chastening, and direction would rest upon each of them. 01:05:06.500 |
bring disgrace or disrepute to the gospel of Christ. 01:05:10.760 |
We love you and we thank you, Lord, for the privilege. 01:05:13.420 |
We look forward to the day when we hear you say, 01:05:24.660 |
Guide us in all we do through the rest of the day, amen.