Tim Dodd: SpaceX, Starship, Rocket Engines, and Future of Space Travel

00:00:00.000 | - And the nozzle, so as you're saying,

00:00:01.960 | there's a bunch of different design options,

00:00:04.640 | but it's a critical part of this,

00:00:06.680 | how you do that conversion.

00:00:08.240 | - Just basically like how much can you convert

00:00:11.680 | is really like the ultimate game.

00:00:13.240 | How much pressure and heat can we convert into thrust?

00:00:17.480 | Like that's really, at the end of the day,

00:00:18.560 | that's what a rocket engine is.

00:00:20.120 | - The following is a conversation with Tim Dodd,

00:00:24.840 | host of the Everyday Astronaut YouTube channel,

00:00:28.160 | where he educates and inspires all of us

00:00:31.440 | with detailed but accessible explanations

00:00:34.040 | of rocket engines and all things space travel.

00:00:38.200 | This is a Lex Friedman podcast.

00:00:40.200 | To support it, please check out our sponsors

00:00:42.200 | in the description.

00:00:43.560 | And now, dear friends, here's Tim Dodd.

00:00:47.340 | Can you give a brief history of SpaceX rockets?

00:00:51.680 | So we've got Falcon 1, Falcon 9,

00:00:54.080 | there's different versions of those, Falcon Heavy,

00:00:56.480 | Starship, and also the Dragon Castles and so on.

00:00:59.160 | - Well, yeah, Falcon 1 is where it all started.

00:01:01.720 | The original intent and the original idea of SpaceX

00:01:04.760 | was Elon wanted to try to get something to Mars.

00:01:07.960 | He saw that NASA didn't have a current Mars plan

00:01:12.120 | and he wanted to go to Mars,

00:01:13.360 | so he decided how do I best do this?

00:01:16.480 | He literally wanted to, at first,

00:01:18.920 | purchase a rocket from Russia.

00:01:21.000 | Then after a foiled attempt at doing that,

00:01:25.860 | he decided that he was gonna try to develop his own rocket.

00:01:28.920 | And the Falcon 1 is what came out of that process.

00:01:31.280 | And he developed a pretty incredible team.

00:01:33.720 | I don't know how exactly he stumbled upon the team

00:01:35.560 | that he stumbled upon that quickly,

00:01:37.160 | but the people that he assembled were amazing.

00:01:39.360 | And they built the Falcon 1,

00:01:41.560 | which was a single Merlin engine

00:01:43.640 | followed by an upper stage engine called the Kestrel engine.

00:01:46.640 | Pretty small compared to the things

00:01:49.400 | they're working on today,

00:01:50.240 | but that Merlin engine continued to evolve

00:01:52.360 | into being the power plant for the Falcon 9.

00:01:55.680 | They went from a small lift launch vehicle

00:01:57.180 | up into the medium class launch vehicle

00:01:58.900 | so they could provide services for NASA.

00:02:00.900 | That's one of the big things

00:02:02.780 | they first kind of hung their hat up

00:02:04.100 | was they got the opportunity to fly cargo

00:02:05.900 | to the International Space Station

00:02:07.620 | under originally it was called the COTS program,

00:02:10.340 | the Commercial Orbital Transportation Services for NASA,

00:02:14.260 | which evolved into the Commercial Resupply Contracts.

00:02:16.980 | And that's when SpaceX developed both their Dragon capsule,

00:02:19.900 | which is a uncrewed at first spacecraft

00:02:24.060 | that can dock to the ISS and the Falcon 9 rocket

00:02:27.140 | that can take it to the International Space Station.

00:02:29.260 | - And the Dragon rides on,

00:02:31.460 | it's the thing up top that rides on the big booster thing

00:02:35.740 | that launches it into orbit.

00:02:38.980 | - Exactly, yep, the Falcon 9's the semi truck,

00:02:42.560 | the Dragon capsule's the payload.

00:02:45.700 | It's the thing being dropped off basically at its destination

00:02:48.100 | and in this case,

00:02:49.100 | the destination is the International Space Station.

00:02:52.460 | And yeah, so they developed those relatively quickly

00:02:57.220 | and became a commercial success before you know it.

00:03:00.460 | They're now the number one launch provider in the world,

00:03:03.420 | launching more mass to orbit than anybody else,

00:03:06.340 | launching more frequently than countries,

00:03:09.260 | like the entire country of China

00:03:11.940 | who's going crazy right now with launches.

00:03:13.420 | Granted, China beat them by two launches this last in 2022,

00:03:16.260 | but prior year, SpaceX beat the entire country of China.

00:03:20.420 | I mean, it's nuts.

00:03:21.740 | - And just like you said,

00:03:23.620 | SpaceX still beats China even this year

00:03:26.820 | in terms of the amount of payload that was done.

00:03:28.740 | So all of the-- - The mass to orbit.

00:03:30.020 | - Yeah, the mass to orbit, right.

00:03:32.540 | That China had like 60 something, a couple more launches,

00:03:37.540 | but there was just like small CubeSat type of launches.

00:03:42.220 | - Exactly, some of them were literally like 100 kilograms

00:03:45.380 | or something, you know, like not large payloads.

00:03:47.460 | And so SpaceX customers are different,

00:03:51.660 | so whoever wants to send payloads up into space.

00:03:55.260 | - Yes, but right now their biggest customer

00:03:57.180 | is actually themselves with Starlink.

00:04:00.100 | One of the biggest reasons they've launched

00:04:01.300 | so much mass to orbit is 'cause Starlink is designed

00:04:04.540 | around the payload fairing and the payload capabilities

00:04:07.420 | of the Falcon 9 rocket.

00:04:08.940 | So, you know, because they're vertically integrated,

00:04:10.780 | because they build their own satellites,

00:04:12.220 | because they're building their own rocket,

00:04:13.940 | they can literally design a system that's, you know,

00:04:16.260 | another manufacturer might've made a more square satellite

00:04:19.500 | that was heavier or something,

00:04:20.780 | but SpaceX looked at it from a blank slate and said,

00:04:23.140 | here's our constraints, our payload mass constraints,

00:04:25.860 | our volume constraints,

00:04:26.700 | and they made a funky looking satellite.

00:04:28.100 | Things like the size of a, you know,

00:04:29.380 | it's like a table folded up,

00:04:30.980 | which isn't anything I've really ever seen before.

00:04:33.460 | So, but it's purpose built to fit as efficiently as possible

00:04:37.380 | inside their fairing and inside the capabilities

00:04:39.660 | of that rocket.

00:04:40.500 | So therefore, because they're launching those,

00:04:42.960 | like an insane amount, you know, dozen, you know,

00:04:45.580 | 40, 50 times a year or whatever,

00:04:47.380 | they're just putting up insane amounts of mass,

00:04:51.860 | like we've never seen before.

00:04:52.860 | - What about the different versions of Falcon 9,

00:04:55.020 | so we can linger on them?

00:04:55.940 | What are some interesting memories to you

00:04:57.860 | of the different developments in Falcon 9?

00:04:59.900 | - The very first Falcon 9s had a square array of engines.

00:05:03.700 | It had like a three by three by three grid

00:05:05.780 | of their Merlin one engines, the one Ds.

00:05:08.420 | And I think it only lasted,

00:05:11.100 | I don't remember if it was two or four flights

00:05:13.460 | before they went into this OctaWOG configuration,

00:05:15.540 | where there's eight, like a ring of eight engines

00:05:17.900 | with a center engine in the middle.

00:05:19.900 | Still in the same diameter, the rocket was,

00:05:21.900 | the fuselage was more or less the same,

00:05:23.300 | 3.7 meter wide diameter,

00:05:25.260 | but the actual thrust structure changed.

00:05:27.300 | And one of the big efficiency gains was,

00:05:29.580 | you no longer have, you know, a corner engine,

00:05:31.500 | and then like a edge engine,

00:05:33.380 | and then another corner engine.

00:05:34.580 | You can just make eight of the same, you know,

00:05:37.320 | kind of part of the OctaWeb, it's called,

00:05:40.580 | you know, the same shape.

00:05:42.180 | And then your interchangeability

00:05:43.940 | and your manufacturability becomes a lot simpler.

00:05:46.340 | So that was kind of one of the bigger upgrades at first.

00:05:49.100 | And they kept stretching it.

00:05:49.940 | Every time they like touched this thing,

00:05:51.180 | it got longer and like, or taller and taller, technically.

00:05:54.460 | And then the next big feature that you saw in 2014

00:05:58.980 | would have been, they added landing legs

00:06:00.920 | to a Falcon 9 rocket, which was,

00:06:02.680 | I was at, that was the first launch I ever went to,

00:06:04.700 | was actually to see, it was CRS-3,

00:06:07.140 | so Commercial Resupply Mission 3,

00:06:08.420 | and it was probably their,

00:06:09.500 | God, I don't remember what that was,

00:06:10.620 | like their 14th or 15th launch or something,

00:06:13.300 | like pretty early on.

00:06:14.680 | And people were literally laughing at the idea

00:06:17.900 | of them putting landing legs on it.

00:06:19.540 | They just thought it was stupid.

00:06:20.380 | They're like, why are they wasting,

00:06:21.620 | why is this billionaire Elon Musk guy wasting his time

00:06:24.780 | trying to land a rocket?

00:06:26.820 | It's not gonna work.

00:06:27.660 | - So you said the Mars planet was there in the beginning.

00:06:30.460 | What about the reusability of rockets?

00:06:32.940 | Was that there in the beginning?

00:06:35.420 | - I think reusability definitely, you know,

00:06:37.660 | it's a necessary part of making any kind

00:06:41.420 | of interplanetary mission, you know,

00:06:44.540 | in order to actually do that, just financially,

00:06:47.460 | you have to start reusing these things.

00:06:48.540 | - In terms of the development of the Falcon 1 and Falcon 9,

00:06:51.500 | how early on did the goal of reusing the rocket,

00:06:57.540 | having the rocket actually land,

00:07:00.380 | how early did that goal creep in?

00:07:02.180 | - I can't speak for Elon and SpaceX,

00:07:04.660 | but it was pretty, you know,

00:07:06.460 | immediately they wanted to try to recover,

00:07:07.940 | and as a matter of fact, I think the very first

00:07:09.380 | two Falcon 9 rockets, and Falcon 1, I think,

00:07:11.940 | they even wanted to try to recover using parachutes

00:07:15.260 | to recover the first stage.

00:07:17.420 | And now, fast forward, you know, almost 20 years later,

00:07:21.400 | and Rocket Lab is actually doing a concept like that,

00:07:24.140 | where they're pulling a parachute

00:07:26.420 | after the first stage is reentering,

00:07:28.540 | and they actually are trying to recover it

00:07:29.820 | with a helicopter, just gonna try to snatch it

00:07:31.660 | out of the air.

00:07:32.500 | They've actually done it.

00:07:33.340 | They've actually done it successfully once.

00:07:35.020 | - How does the helicopter grab the rocket?

00:07:37.100 | - With this giant, like, drag line and a hook.

00:07:39.620 | - Oh, wow.

00:07:40.460 | - And then it literally just, like,

00:07:41.660 | grabs, snags onto the parachute.

00:07:44.020 | - Wow. - And it's pretty amazing.

00:07:45.820 | But this is a small rocket.

00:07:47.260 | Their rocket's only about a metric ton.

00:07:49.180 | The booster is empty.

00:07:50.700 | - So the rocket releases parachutes, like, really high up.

00:07:55.700 | I would love to see this.

00:07:56.780 | - Yeah. - It's an interesting idea.

00:07:57.980 | There's so many interesting ideas and possibilities.

00:08:00.540 | Like, SpaceX basically just innovated

00:08:03.140 | a lot of different weird ideas,

00:08:06.740 | just in the pursuit of making things more efficient,

00:08:09.300 | reusable, all of that.

00:08:11.620 | So basically, thinking from first principles

00:08:13.220 | how to solve this problem.

00:08:14.340 | And so what you find is, like,

00:08:15.660 | you'll get all of these kind of crazy kind of solutions.

00:08:18.060 | - And with SpaceX, they weren't even getting to the point

00:08:20.640 | of the booster surviving reentry long enough

00:08:22.980 | to be able to pull the parachutes.

00:08:24.260 | - Yeah. - You know,

00:08:25.100 | their mass fractions, you know, and that varies.

00:08:27.860 | Every single rocket's different.

00:08:29.180 | You know, all the, you know, for instance,

00:08:30.900 | Rocket Lab uses carbon composite fuselage and tanks,

00:08:35.100 | or, you know, same thing.

00:08:36.340 | And that's very, very lightweight,

00:08:38.220 | has really good mass fractions,

00:08:40.180 | and therefore their drag coefficients and things like that,

00:08:42.500 | they were able to survive reentry of the first stage,

00:08:45.740 | which is something that SpaceX

00:08:46.900 | wasn't able to do at the time.

00:08:49.060 | What's, what the, kind of the big, I think,

00:08:50.820 | breakthrough for SpaceX with reusing the booster

00:08:53.420 | is they realized we have to basically slow down

00:08:56.780 | before we hit the atmosphere.

00:08:58.260 | - Yeah. - So they actually do

00:08:59.420 | what they used to call a reentry burn,

00:09:01.220 | which I still think is the correct term,

00:09:02.660 | 'cause it is reentering the atmosphere.

00:09:04.060 | But now they call it the entry burn,

00:09:05.940 | and they light up three of the nine Merlin engines,

00:09:08.820 | not only to slow it down,

00:09:09.820 | but actually even while those engines are firing,

00:09:11.580 | it creates like a literal like force field

00:09:14.460 | as it's falling through the atmosphere.

00:09:17.540 | - Interesting.

00:09:18.740 | - But it also decreases the velocity by almost half,

00:09:21.940 | or around half, and then that therefore decreases

00:09:24.580 | the amount of, you know, the biggest thing

00:09:26.300 | with the atmosphere is that as it gets compressed

00:09:28.340 | against the front of any,

00:09:31.540 | anything flying through the atmosphere,

00:09:33.900 | the compressed atoms just get hot,

00:09:36.140 | and they can get so hot they turn into a plasma,

00:09:37.940 | and they get so hot they can just absolutely

00:09:39.140 | destroy anything.

00:09:40.940 | So they slow down enough that the air molecules

00:09:44.100 | don't end up, you know, destroying the vehicle on reentry.

00:09:48.140 | And then they realized, I think at some point,

00:09:49.860 | it was probably a similar crossover,

00:09:50.980 | they're like, well, if we're lighting the engines already

00:09:52.580 | to slow down the atmosphere,

00:09:53.940 | we can just use that same engine to land.

00:09:57.140 | And so like, well, what if we just stuck landing legs on it

00:09:59.220 | and just landed the thing vertically?

00:10:01.300 | And next thing you know is December 21st, 2015,

00:10:04.620 | they did exactly that for the first time.

00:10:06.380 | - The first time.

00:10:07.220 | So you were there before that then, right?

00:10:09.220 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:10:10.060 | - In 2014.

00:10:10.900 | - Yep, early 2014.

00:10:11.740 | So that, and for me, like, that was so fun watching,

00:10:14.380 | you know, that was like the peak of me

00:10:15.860 | just becoming obsessed with this idea.

00:10:18.780 | I'm watching, with, like, and back in the day,

00:10:21.180 | it was like months between launches, you know?

00:10:23.020 | So a launch was like a big idea.

00:10:24.260 | I'd wake up at 3 a.m. to watch this landing attempt

00:10:27.100 | or whatever, you know?

00:10:28.340 | Every, you know, there's CRS-4 almost landed,

00:10:32.300 | CRS-5 almost landed, CRS-6, CRS-7 blew up.

00:10:35.900 | I was watching that on,

00:10:37.060 | I think it was like a Saturday morning

00:10:38.660 | or maybe a Sunday morning.

00:10:39.580 | And I remember watching that and watched it blow up.

00:10:41.780 | And I was like, oh my God, now what?

00:10:43.660 | You know, and it blew up on ascent.

00:10:46.620 | It was their first failure.

00:10:48.580 | So it was their 18th flight, I believe.

00:10:50.780 | CRS-7, the upper stage, had one of the bottlers,

00:10:54.660 | bottles inside the tanks that are filled with helium.

00:10:56.940 | And one of those bottles broke off on ascent

00:10:59.420 | and actually just completely overpressured

00:11:01.900 | the upper stage.

00:11:02.740 | And the upper stage blew up

00:11:03.560 | and the whole rocket went kaboom in an uncontrolled manner.

00:11:07.060 | And so then they came back with vengeance.

00:11:10.860 | And when they came back, the first mission back

00:11:12.780 | is the first time that they landed a rocket,

00:11:14.260 | which was awesome.

00:11:15.080 | So the return to flight after the anomaly was, yeah,

00:11:19.180 | was landing a rocket.

00:11:20.260 | - And stuck the landing.

00:11:21.380 | - Yep, nailed it.

00:11:22.220 | - Well, actually, the first time.

00:11:23.300 | So the first time you were there, what was that like?

00:11:25.900 | What do you remember from that day?

00:11:27.620 | - Just, I was surprised at how much bigger

00:11:29.900 | the rocket was than I imagined.

00:11:31.580 | I was, I originally, when I was going down

00:11:33.060 | to Kennedy Space Center, I was disappointed

00:11:34.780 | that I wasn't seeing like a, you know,

00:11:37.260 | I didn't know a ton about rockets.

00:11:38.700 | I knew enough to like know what a space shuttle was,

00:11:41.140 | what like the Saturn V was, you know,

00:11:43.060 | but that was probably about the end of my knowledge.

00:11:45.420 | I just remember being disappointed

00:11:47.180 | that I wasn't seeing a big, quote unquote,

00:11:48.980 | NASA rocket flying.

00:11:50.700 | You know, I was thinking in my head like,

00:11:51.780 | oh, I'm gonna see this launch.

00:11:52.700 | It's probably gonna be like, you know,

00:11:54.380 | three stories tall or something, you know,

00:11:55.980 | just some little skinny little stick

00:11:57.860 | and some little firecracker and yay, you know.

00:12:01.380 | I think I'd almost been pitched that too.

00:12:02.660 | I think the people that I was working for at the time,

00:12:05.280 | I think they kind of were downplaying it as like,

00:12:06.780 | well, it's not a big rocket, sir.

00:12:08.260 | It's not gonna be that exciting, you know.

00:12:10.420 | But we get out there to the pad and I'm like,

00:12:12.060 | this thing's huge.

00:12:13.460 | This is not a small rocket.

00:12:14.820 | Like this is, it's, you know, it's 70 meters tall,

00:12:17.580 | 220 feet tall.

00:12:19.020 | It's huge.

00:12:20.420 | And I think people forget like the scale of that, you know.

00:12:23.780 | It might look skinny and tall and all this stuff,

00:12:26.180 | but it's still a very, very large piece of machinery.

00:12:29.220 | It's physically about as large as you can ship.

00:12:31.860 | The booster's about as big as you can ship

00:12:33.300 | across the country, period,

00:12:34.740 | without like completely shutting down highways.

00:12:36.820 | You know, it is made within those exact specifications

00:12:39.100 | of like having, you know, lane privileges

00:12:41.740 | and bridges and everything.

00:12:42.840 | It's, you know, 12 feet wide, 3.7 meters wide,

00:12:45.420 | and it's 45 meters long.

00:12:47.500 | So it's like exactly what you can fit

00:12:49.620 | with a pretty standard, you know,

00:12:52.060 | like before you start getting into crazy amounts

00:12:53.860 | of problems shipping the rocket.

00:12:56.060 | And it's huge.

00:12:56.900 | It's huge.

00:12:57.740 | And people just don't understand that.

00:12:58.900 | And so when I saw it with my own eyes,

00:13:00.420 | I remember just being like,

00:13:01.740 | this is so much cooler than I thought.

00:13:03.620 | - Is it hard to believe that that thing

00:13:05.300 | is gonna have to lift off the ground

00:13:07.300 | and launch up into the air?

00:13:08.860 | Maybe that's the most humbling aspect of it.

00:13:11.060 | That's something that size.

00:13:12.700 | Humans have come up with a way to take something that size

00:13:15.580 | and launching, launch it up into the air.

00:13:18.020 | - Yeah, there's certainly a very humbling aspect

00:13:20.420 | when you watch it actually leave.

00:13:21.980 | - Was there a sound to it?

00:13:23.540 | Was there like a feel?

00:13:24.540 | What were the different experiences you first remember?

00:13:26.700 | - Well, ironically,

00:13:27.540 | I didn't end up getting to see that one fly.

00:13:29.500 | - Oh. - I went home.

00:13:30.380 | My camera saw it.

00:13:31.220 | I left my camera out there,

00:13:32.780 | like a remote triggered camera.

00:13:34.900 | My first images as a launch photographer at the time

00:13:37.260 | was CRS-3, but I went home.

00:13:39.580 | It scrubbed too many times.

00:13:40.580 | This is back in the day,

00:13:41.420 | they were scrubbing like often,

00:13:43.380 | and there'd be like a three day, five day, seven day.

00:13:45.380 | You just never knew.

00:13:46.620 | So I go home and I watched the live stream of it.

00:13:48.820 | So I didn't even get to experience my first launch.

00:13:51.620 | And anyone that's ever tried to go to a launch

00:13:54.500 | can probably empathize because yeah,

00:13:56.700 | scrubs are very common in the spaceflight world.

00:13:59.420 | So that one, I didn't get to see.

00:14:02.060 | But since then, obviously,

00:14:03.220 | I've been able to attend very many launches.

00:14:06.260 | - How much do you understand the control involved

00:14:08.100 | in the landing?

00:14:08.940 | How difficult is that problem?

00:14:09.940 | - I couldn't tell you a single thing about like the code

00:14:12.100 | and like the avionics behind it,

00:14:13.420 | but I can tell you all the hardware that makes it happen,

00:14:16.100 | if that helps.

00:14:16.980 | - Well, that, I mean, to me,

00:14:18.940 | it seems like whenever I talk to people,

00:14:20.380 | they say it's not that big of a deal

00:14:23.420 | in terms of the level of intelligence in the control.

00:14:25.820 | But to me, it's just like when you observe it,

00:14:28.640 | it seems incredible.

00:14:30.060 | 'Cause all the variables involved,

00:14:32.420 | all the uncertainties involved,

00:14:34.100 | all the, 'cause there's aerodynamics.

00:14:38.380 | I mean, like there's different temperatures.

00:14:40.540 | There's so much going on with the fuel,

00:14:42.420 | the burning, the combustion,

00:14:44.500 | just everything that's going on

00:14:46.260 | to be able to perform control at such high stakes

00:14:49.460 | effectively, like, you know,

00:14:52.300 | that code is probably not written in JavaScript,

00:14:54.340 | I guess is what I'm saying.

00:14:55.540 | - Actually, no, I don't, if I remember,

00:14:58.340 | I, again, this is well outside of my domain,

00:15:00.820 | but they're coding in a common language.

00:15:05.100 | It's--

00:15:05.940 | - It's probably gonna be C.

00:15:07.860 | - Yeah, I'm pretty sure it is.

00:15:09.180 | And that was one of the things that was weird

00:15:10.540 | is that Elon, when he started SpaceX,

00:15:12.820 | was like, "We're just gonna code in the most common language

00:15:14.460 | "so that we don't have to like have people learn

00:15:17.300 | "this archaic, you know, weird thing.

00:15:19.500 | "And we can just literally pull people off the streets

00:15:21.300 | "and be like, here, write it."

00:15:22.580 | You know, and--

00:15:23.420 | - Yeah, it's probably C++.

00:15:24.420 | I mean, it'd be epic if it was like Python or something,

00:15:26.740 | but I don't, I think like reliable systems

00:15:29.420 | have to be written in C, C++ probably,

00:15:31.700 | which is a common language, which is something.

00:15:34.140 | I imagine like NASA engineers would probably have to use

00:15:36.820 | some kind of proprietary language in the olden days

00:15:40.700 | for security, for privacy, all that kind of stuff.

00:15:43.260 | - Oh, in the olden, old, old days,

00:15:45.220 | like they were inventing code and language from scratch.

00:15:48.900 | For sure.

00:15:50.860 | - But still, it's just still incredible

00:15:52.340 | that it's able to do that.

00:15:53.420 | Like, just the feat of engineering involved is just,

00:15:55.900 | it's truly, it's like one of the marvels to observe

00:16:00.460 | about these rockets coming back to Earth

00:16:02.460 | that they're able to land.

00:16:04.940 | Like, the drama of it is just incredible to see.

00:16:07.740 | - Yeah, well, one of the fun things to remember, too,

00:16:10.180 | with, specifically with the Falcon 9 and the Falcon 9,

00:16:13.220 | or Falcon Heavy boosters, I mean,

00:16:14.500 | it's the same thing, basically,

00:16:16.660 | they shut down all but one of the nine engines.

00:16:19.340 | And even with that one engine

00:16:20.860 | at its minimum throttle setting,

00:16:22.620 | it's still too much thrust to hover.

00:16:25.220 | So as this rocket's coming down,

00:16:27.260 | if they start a little bit too early,

00:16:29.380 | if they light that engine too early,

00:16:31.120 | it will actually stop above the ground

00:16:33.180 | and will not be able to lower itself.

00:16:35.780 | It will literally stop, like, say,

00:16:37.660 | I'm gonna say it stopped 200 feet above the ground,

00:16:40.540 | their only option is to kill the engine,

00:16:41.900 | and then it's just gonna fall those 200 feet.

00:16:43.920 | So it's what we call a suicide burn or a hover slam,

00:16:47.260 | kind of interchangeable terms,

00:16:49.340 | because your thrust to weight ratio is never below one.

00:16:52.220 | So they have to actually literally be riding the throttle.

00:16:54.500 | So what you do is you kind of start,

00:16:56.160 | ideally, you kind of start in the middle

00:16:58.260 | of your window of throttle range.

00:17:00.580 | So let's pretend your engine can throttle down to 40%

00:17:03.760 | of its maximum rated thrust.

00:17:05.380 | You might start at, like, 70% of thrust

00:17:07.700 | in the middle of that window of where it could burn.

00:17:10.660 | So if all of a sudden it's kind of coming in too hot,

00:17:12.420 | you have room to throttle up.

00:17:13.860 | If you're coming in too, you're actually, you know,

00:17:15.860 | a little too early, you throttle it down.

00:17:17.260 | You have a little bit of wiggle room.

00:17:18.660 | It's just amazing how smoothly and how perfectly

00:17:21.340 | they're able to still control that thing,

00:17:23.060 | even though they're down to one engine out of the nine,

00:17:26.020 | and they're still riding, like,

00:17:26.940 | the finest margin of what's possible.

00:17:28.340 | And they're continually playing with that to try to get it,

00:17:30.660 | 'cause every bit of fuel they're using

00:17:32.860 | and propellant they're using to land

00:17:35.060 | is propellant they weren't using

00:17:36.380 | to put something into space.

00:17:38.340 | So they want that to be as efficient as possible.

00:17:40.540 | So they're really, like, watching them hone that in

00:17:42.660 | and just continue to evolve and edit that

00:17:45.780 | and just get it to be the workhorse.

00:17:48.020 | We're coming up on 100 consecutive landings,

00:17:51.200 | perfect landings, 100.

00:17:52.620 | I think they've done, like, 150-something landings

00:17:54.740 | altogether, 160 altogether.

00:17:56.680 | But we're talking, like, in a row without blowing up,

00:17:59.500 | which, you know, five years ago

00:18:01.180 | was completely experimental and insane.

00:18:03.360 | And now we're coming up to the point

00:18:04.380 | where we're 100 in a row.

00:18:05.780 | It's like, this is becoming more reliable.

00:18:08.300 | And the landing, which is not the primary mission,

00:18:10.860 | this is purely for SpaceX's, like, gain,

00:18:12.980 | is to recover the booster.

00:18:14.380 | It has nothing to do with the effect

00:18:15.760 | of getting the payload on orbit, you know, most of the time.

00:18:18.640 | And the landing is really only

00:18:21.020 | for their benefit and their gain.

00:18:23.020 | - Long-term gain.

00:18:24.040 | Like, it's a long-term investment

00:18:25.900 | in being able to recover the boosters.

00:18:28.980 | - 100%. - Can you believe

00:18:29.900 | all this was done in basically 10 years?

00:18:32.060 | So we've seen this development over a period of 10 years.

00:18:35.620 | - Oh, man. - So, like,

00:18:36.460 | we started commercial spaceflight at scale to today,

00:18:41.460 | where it's almost starting to be mundane.

00:18:46.740 | - Yeah.

00:18:47.580 | - What Falcon 9 is able to do.

00:18:49.420 | - Yeah.

00:18:50.620 | I can't really believe it.

00:18:51.700 | I mean, obviously, even just in the,

00:18:53.500 | I think I'm a fairly fair-weather fan,

00:18:55.780 | really didn't start paying attention to, like, 2014.

00:18:57.860 | - Yeah.

00:18:58.700 | - And just seeing what it was like back then

00:19:00.780 | to what it's like, like,

00:19:01.620 | I don't watch every launch at all anymore.

00:19:03.740 | Like, I'll catch the big ones.

00:19:05.460 | I'll stream some of the really big ones.

00:19:07.180 | But, like, back in the day, I, like I said,

00:19:08.940 | would wake up in the middle of the night

00:19:10.100 | to catch these streams, or, you know,

00:19:11.580 | catch these launches and watch 'em,

00:19:13.220 | because they were such a big deal,

00:19:14.300 | and there's maybe only five of them a year, you know?

00:19:17.300 | And so it was a really big deal.

00:19:18.180 | Nowadays, it's like, oh, yeah,

00:19:19.540 | and there's literally, like, two a week on average now.

00:19:22.420 | It's insane, from SpaceX alone,

00:19:25.000 | let alone, you know, United Launch Alliance, Rocket Lab,

00:19:27.780 | any of the Chinese missions, you know?

00:19:29.500 | I mean, all of, there's countless.

00:19:31.140 | It's insane.

00:19:31.980 | It's hard to, really, really, really hard to keep up with.

00:19:34.460 | - I wonder at which point in the future

00:19:37.080 | the number of launches to orbit

00:19:40.220 | will exceed the number of launches of airplanes,

00:19:44.080 | like, on the surface of Earth.

00:19:45.260 | - Yeah, I have to admit, I kind of have a hard time

00:19:48.020 | extrapolating out that far.

00:19:49.940 | You know, there's a lot of people that are, like,

00:19:50.940 | big futurists and really do think about, like,

00:19:52.660 | interplanetary stuff and think about

00:19:54.140 | colonizing Mars and stuff.

00:19:55.660 | I have a hard time predicting, like,

00:19:57.460 | when Starship's gonna fly, the orbital launch, you know?

00:19:59.940 | And that's, like, imminent-ish,

00:20:01.700 | like, month or two scale timeframe,

00:20:03.820 | and yet I'm still, like, I can't tell you when that's gonna,

00:20:06.180 | I can't tell you anything about, like,

00:20:07.980 | when we're gonna land on Mars or what that's,

00:20:10.340 | what that economy and what that, you know,

00:20:11.840 | the scale of launch operations is gonna look like

00:20:13.940 | in order to do that, because it's just so hard.

00:20:15.820 | I wouldn't have predicted where we're at today

00:20:18.100 | five years ago, you know?

00:20:19.380 | It's insane.

00:20:20.420 | It's so hard to predict, and yeah.

00:20:23.260 | But it's funny, because there's so many, like,

00:20:25.020 | new companies starting up trying to predict that,

00:20:27.220 | and it's a really exciting, you know,

00:20:29.180 | startup culture right now.

00:20:30.740 | I think when you make certain engineering decisions

00:20:34.380 | and hiring decisions and, like, what you focus on

00:20:36.740 | in terms of both business and engineering,

00:20:39.340 | it's good to think on the scale of 10, 20, 50, 100 years.

00:20:42.780 | That's one of the things that Elon is exceptionally good at,

00:20:45.580 | which is asking the question,

00:20:47.980 | "Okay, this might seem impossible right now,

00:20:49.820 | "but what's the obvious way to do this

00:20:52.920 | "if we look out 20 years?"

00:20:55.420 | And then you start to make decisions.

00:20:58.020 | You start to make decisions about robotics,

00:20:59.840 | about brain and computer interfaces,

00:21:01.340 | about space travel.

00:21:03.740 | They make a lot of sense when you look at the scale

00:21:06.300 | of 10, 20, 50, 100 years, and don't make any sense

00:21:09.560 | if you look at the scale of just months.

00:21:12.980 | But, of course, the actual work of day-to-day

00:21:16.060 | is focused on the next few months,

00:21:17.620 | 'cause there's deadlines, there's missions

00:21:19.580 | they have to accomplish.

00:21:20.580 | Anyway, returning back to the brief history

00:21:23.340 | of SpaceX rockets, the Falcon Heavy.

00:21:27.420 | So what else is there?

00:21:28.460 | So we talked about Falcon 9 and the rapid development there.

00:21:31.860 | What other flavors of Falcon is there,

00:21:34.420 | and how does that take us to Starship?

00:21:36.020 | - Yeah, realistically, the Falcon 9 evolved more or less,

00:21:39.340 | kind of just got more powerful and a little bit longer

00:21:41.980 | and more capable.

00:21:43.540 | But nowadays they fly what's called the Block 5,

00:21:45.900 | even though it's the eighth or ninth iteration

00:21:48.260 | of the Falcon 9, but they call it Block 5.

00:21:50.780 | It's the one that has the black landing legs,

00:21:52.180 | the black interstage.

00:21:53.540 | They have a fleet of roughly 10 or so

00:21:55.080 | that are doing the majority of the legwork these days,

00:21:57.500 | and they're flying up to 15 times, I think, right now,

00:22:00.580 | as the current booster leader.

00:22:03.140 | They're also recovering the fairings,

00:22:04.620 | so the nose cone of the rockets are frequently,

00:22:08.020 | if not every time, being recovered.

00:22:09.880 | Same with the booster for the most part.

00:22:13.460 | And the only thing being expended is the upper stage,

00:22:15.380 | and that's kind of where the Falcon 9 is ending.

00:22:18.380 | It really doesn't make sense to develop

00:22:21.020 | that infrastructure any longer,

00:22:22.580 | so they went with the next step,

00:22:24.420 | which is go even bigger physically,

00:22:28.020 | so they have more margin for upper stage reusability.

00:22:31.020 | And that's what we see with Starship and Super Heavy.

00:22:33.940 | So the Super Heavy booster, the whole system is confusing.

00:22:37.020 | The whole system's kind of considered Starship,

00:22:39.160 | but technically the Starship is just the upper stage,

00:22:41.700 | which is also like the spaceship,

00:22:43.540 | which is also the upper stage.

00:22:45.360 | And then the booster itself

00:22:46.580 | is considered the Super Heavy booster.

00:22:48.880 | And that's what they've been working on.

00:22:50.980 | Publicly it came out in 2016

00:22:52.860 | as the, at the time it was the ITS,

00:22:55.540 | the Interplanetary Transportation System.

00:22:58.820 | Later, and I think about, by the end of that year,

00:23:01.620 | 2017 it kind of became known as the BFR,

00:23:04.020 | the big Falcon rocket.

00:23:05.940 | - Yes. - Yeah.

00:23:07.100 | And then I think it was about end of 2018

00:23:09.940 | they started calling it Starship.

00:23:11.900 | But that is where we're at today,

00:23:14.260 | and that's what they're working full steam ahead on.

00:23:17.420 | - And what about Dragon?

00:23:18.820 | We mentioned Dragon, Crew Dragon, Cargo Dragon.

00:23:21.600 | - Yeah, so they went from the cargo version of Dragon

00:23:24.960 | that flew about 20 times

00:23:27.620 | successfully to the International Space Station,

00:23:29.900 | except for that one CRS-7 where the rocket blew up

00:23:31.860 | and the capsule obviously didn't make it to the ISS.

00:23:34.860 | Then they went into the Dragon 2,

00:23:37.260 | which has two variants.

00:23:38.140 | It has a crew variant, so we just call it Crew Dragon.

00:23:41.180 | And then there's the cargo version of Dragon 2.

00:23:45.340 | And that's just an updated, sleeker,

00:23:47.500 | sexier version of Dragon.

00:23:49.960 | Ironically, it's heavier altogether,

00:23:51.840 | so you'll never see those cool return to launch site landing,

00:23:55.880 | the boosters coming back to land for CRS missions

00:23:58.160 | anymore like we used to.

00:23:59.560 | But they landed on the drone ship anyway.

00:24:01.720 | And yeah, that's been flying successfully.

00:24:04.840 | That's kind of the, so there's Starlink, Dragon,

00:24:07.040 | Falcon 9, Falcon Heavy, and Starship system.

00:24:09.200 | It's kind of the whole SpaceX world, really.

00:24:12.680 | - In terms of the spaceships involved,

00:24:14.680 | what to you are some of the major milestones

00:24:17.520 | in that history?

00:24:18.900 | We kind of mentioned a few.

00:24:21.520 | - Yeah. - Stick in the landing.

00:24:22.600 | Is there something that kind of stands out?

00:24:24.680 | - Yeah, I would say definitely the big ones, obviously,

00:24:27.640 | like any of the first, like the first flight of Falcon 1,

00:24:29.600 | first flight of Falcon 9,

00:24:30.560 | first time they went to the International Space Station,

00:24:33.440 | the first time they landed a booster,

00:24:35.760 | the first time they reused a booster,

00:24:37.160 | which is, I think, about six months after.

00:24:39.560 | No, it was a year after.

00:24:40.920 | It was SES 10, 2017.

00:24:44.720 | It was the first time they reused one of those boosters.

00:24:47.000 | And that was a big milestone.

00:24:48.480 | Can we even, yeah, we recovered one.

00:24:50.040 | We caught one.

00:24:51.520 | It's like, we got one, now what?

00:24:53.720 | That was the first time they reflew one.

00:24:56.080 | Yeah, then flying humans was a huge one.

00:24:58.080 | DM-2, Bob and Doug for NASA.

00:25:01.200 | - Bob and Doug, yeah. - Bob and Doug.

00:25:03.160 | That was incredible.

00:25:04.320 | That was a huge, huge step, I think,

00:25:07.180 | for SpaceX was flying people.

00:25:08.880 | - So it's the first major commercial

00:25:11.240 | launching of humans out into space.

00:25:14.300 | - Yeah, and not just into space,

00:25:15.640 | 'cause there's been people that have done,

00:25:18.440 | space flights with suborbital hops,

00:25:20.840 | but going into orbit, and especially docking

00:25:24.520 | and rendezvousing with the International Space Station,

00:25:26.000 | it's a big deal.

00:25:27.120 | Until you really understand the physics involved

00:25:31.200 | and the scale involved of just crossing the Kármán line,

00:25:33.600 | going straight up, versus going into orbit,

00:25:36.000 | they're just completely different things, almost.

00:25:38.240 | - What about Starship?

00:25:39.800 | Are we in a place where we can talk

00:25:42.840 | about milestones with Starship?

00:25:44.640 | Has there been, or has it just been

00:25:46.280 | an epic journey of failure and successes

00:25:49.000 | of testing and so on?

00:25:51.120 | What would you classify at this point

00:25:55.120 | as a milestone that Starship or BFR,

00:25:58.560 | whatever the name is, was able to achieve?

00:26:00.840 | - Well, so far, the milestones we've seen,

00:26:02.680 | I'd say the first one would be the hop of,

00:26:04.920 | they call it Starhopper,

00:26:05.920 | and it's basically a very rudimentary rocket,

00:26:08.060 | but it was the first time they utilized

00:26:10.280 | their new Raptor engine to produce

00:26:12.080 | thrusted to fly something.

00:26:14.360 | It first flew literally three meters off the ground

00:26:17.520 | or something, tethered to the ground.

00:26:19.000 | Then it flew 15, and then finally it flew 150 meters.

00:26:22.800 | And that was in 2019.

00:26:26.040 | And that was the first big milestone of Starship.

00:26:28.240 | And then after that, we saw SN5, SN6 do the similar

00:26:32.360 | 150 meter hops with a little bit more elegant systems,

00:26:35.760 | proving out more of their tank building,

00:26:37.800 | proving out more of their, a lot of just subsystems.

00:26:40.800 | And then the big ones physically were,

00:26:44.000 | end of 2020 and early 2021 when they flew

00:26:47.360 | the SN8, 9, 10, 11, and 15.

00:26:50.640 | - What does the N stand for in SN?

00:26:52.040 | - I think just serial number or Starship number.

00:26:54.080 | - Yeah, so SN, these are just names, numbers,

00:26:57.600 | numerical representations of the different testing efforts.

00:27:01.240 | They skipped some numbers, right?

00:27:02.600 | - Yeah.

00:27:03.440 | - If they scratch a test.

00:27:05.180 | - Yeah, and lots of times it'd be like literally

00:27:06.560 | that they're building, 'cause at Starbase,

00:27:09.360 | what SpaceX is working on, like the one foot

00:27:11.640 | is always in front of someone else's foot,

00:27:13.200 | and the arm is not knowing what the leg is doing sometimes.

00:27:16.240 | - Yeah.

00:27:17.080 | - They will have someone working on,

00:27:19.480 | they'll just be like, hurry up and build 40

00:27:21.160 | of these tank sections, and you build the bulkhead,

00:27:23.600 | and you build the downcomer, and you build

00:27:25.080 | the header tank, blah, blah, blah.

00:27:26.440 | And all of a sudden, like, oh, we actually evolved that,

00:27:28.000 | we don't use that header tank now.

00:27:29.240 | So it's gonna go onto this one.

00:27:30.200 | So they'll have parts of certain rockets built,

00:27:33.160 | and it's like, ah, literally scrap it.

00:27:35.160 | Not scrap it in the joke term,

00:27:37.640 | but literally just go scrap it.

00:27:39.600 | And they, so yeah, they just evolve and iterate so quickly.

00:27:42.920 | - There were some epic explosions.

00:27:44.920 | I think Starship, something about it,

00:27:49.360 | probably just the amount of fuel,

00:27:51.200 | just leads to some epic, epic failures.

00:27:54.280 | - Oh yeah, yeah.

00:27:55.120 | - Would you say Starship is the source

00:27:56.680 | of the most epic failures in terms of size of explosion?

00:28:00.160 | - So you can literally measure it in like a yield

00:28:02.520 | of explosive power, you know, like you could TNT.

00:28:05.560 | Like you can take a look at how much propellant

00:28:07.880 | is left over at the time of the explosion.

00:28:09.760 | And you know, Starship, what's flown so far,

00:28:12.480 | even though it's physically one

00:28:13.760 | of the largest flying objects ever,

00:28:15.960 | just with the upper stage alone,

00:28:17.920 | they've not filled it more than like 10 or 20%

00:28:20.240 | full of propellant.

00:28:21.920 | And so it actually hasn't been,

00:28:24.200 | the failures have been really epic looking,

00:28:27.640 | big visual fireballs.

00:28:29.120 | But in terms of space flight,

00:28:30.360 | they're still pretty small explosions, believe it or not.

00:28:33.320 | - They could still go bigger.

00:28:35.080 | - Oh yeah, a lot, a lot.

00:28:37.800 | - Of course, the test payload of a Tesla Roadster

00:28:40.840 | was launched.

00:28:42.240 | I forget what year that was.

00:28:43.440 | - Yeah, that was 2018.

00:28:44.640 | - That was quite epic.

00:28:45.720 | Would you put that on a milestone?

00:28:47.280 | - Oh yeah, yeah, Falcon Heavy demo

00:28:48.760 | was like definitely a big, big, big milestone, yeah.

00:28:52.800 | - Is that funny to you that there's a Roadster

00:28:55.880 | floating out there?

00:28:56.720 | Do we know the location of that Roadster at this point?

00:28:58.760 | - Oh yeah, whereisroadster.com?

00:29:01.160 | - Yeah? - Oh yeah.

00:29:02.120 | - Where's, is it orbiting something?

00:29:03.480 | - Yeah, it's orbiting the sun.

00:29:05.000 | So it's orbiting the sun and its orbit is basically

00:29:08.080 | between the Earth's orbit and beyond Mars.

00:29:11.000 | So I think of like 2.5 AU if I remember right.

00:29:13.400 | So it's beyond Mars' orbit at its highest point

00:29:16.560 | and it's back at Earth, kind of at its lowest point.

00:29:18.960 | - I wonder if there's a mission where you're going to

00:29:22.000 | somehow connect with it once again

00:29:23.600 | and like place extra things into it.

00:29:25.560 | I wonder how challenging that is technically.

00:29:28.080 | - Oh yeah, it could absolutely be done.

00:29:30.120 | The hard thing at this point,

00:29:32.800 | because it's on an eccentric orbit,

00:29:34.620 | would be rendezvousing with it

00:29:36.440 | 'cause you kind of have to be in alignment with its orbit

00:29:38.720 | to really line up well with it.

00:29:41.360 | But yeah, I mean, someday I don't see any reason

00:29:43.080 | why we couldn't at least send for sure an uncrewed,

00:29:45.360 | you know, if Elon wanted to just fly a robot out there

00:29:48.520 | to check up on it and photograph it or something.

00:29:50.600 | Like we could, that could be well

00:29:52.360 | within the realm of things.

00:29:53.480 | - Get an Optimus robot up there.

00:29:56.120 | So that was the story brilliantly told by you

00:30:01.080 | of the rockets for SpaceX.

00:30:03.040 | What about through the lens of engines?

00:30:05.640 | Can you give a brief history of the SpaceX rocket engines

00:30:08.600 | that were used that we haven't covered?

00:30:11.520 | So you mentioned it all started with the Merlin engine

00:30:13.760 | and the Kestrel engine.

00:30:14.800 | What, yeah, through that lens, what's there?

00:30:19.040 | - Engines are relatively small number,

00:30:21.000 | which is easy for us.

00:30:22.360 | There's the Merlin, and Merlin's evolved throughout time

00:30:24.520 | to be from like the Merlin to the Merlin 1C

00:30:26.720 | to the Merlin 1D to the Merlin 1D full thrust

00:30:28.880 | and all these other kind of tweaks of the same architecture.

00:30:32.000 | Kestrel ended with Falcon 1.

00:30:33.660 | They also have the Merlin vacuum engine,

00:30:36.080 | which is the upper stage engine for Falcon 9.

00:30:38.200 | Same relative system, but just optimized for vacuum.

00:30:41.960 | So it has a much larger bell nozzle.

00:30:44.000 | There's the Draco thrusters,

00:30:45.460 | which you kind of can consider engines.

00:30:48.120 | Well, they are rocket engines, but they're just small.

00:30:50.640 | They're not like the orbital engines.

00:30:52.560 | There's the Super Draco engines,

00:30:53.960 | which are the abort thrusters on Crew Dragon capsule.

00:30:58.360 | And then nowadays they have the Raptor engine

00:31:01.000 | and the Raptor vacuum variant,

00:31:03.720 | but they've already had two versions of Raptor.

00:31:05.120 | We've already seen kind of the Raptor development engine.

00:31:07.720 | We've kind of seen like a Raptor 1.5,

00:31:09.320 | where it's kind of taking hints of the future Raptor,

00:31:12.440 | but now we're well within what you'd consider

00:31:16.160 | a Raptor 2 variant.

00:31:17.360 | And that's really it.

00:31:19.400 | - Yeah, for the Raptor.

00:31:21.580 | Maybe I'll ask you that separately,

00:31:22.880 | but I like in general, and people,

00:31:25.600 | who doesn't know who Everyday Astronaut is,

00:31:28.580 | but if you don't somehow know,

00:31:30.160 | go check your YouTube channel out.

00:31:33.760 | You're an incredible educator about the super technical

00:31:37.560 | and the more sort of, even the philosophical,

00:31:41.600 | the actual space travel.

00:31:43.880 | So you go down to the raw details of it,

00:31:46.440 | and there's just great videos on the Raptor engine.

00:31:49.000 | I think you have one on Merlin,

00:31:52.680 | and also the actual tours with Elon,

00:31:54.880 | where he discusses some of those things.

00:31:56.720 | On one of the tours, he says,

00:31:58.920 | he's full of good lines, that guy.

00:32:00.800 | He says something about the number of fiddly bits,

00:32:05.320 | and he's, the number of fiddly bits was decreased

00:32:09.000 | between Raptor 2 and Raptor 1.

00:32:12.120 | And I think that's actually a really beautiful representation

00:32:14.880 | of the engineering efforts there,

00:32:17.560 | which is constantly trying to simplify.

00:32:20.320 | Increase the efficiency of the engines,

00:32:21.700 | but also simplify the design so you can manufacture it.

00:32:26.700 | And in general, simplification leads to better performance

00:32:30.960 | and testing and everything.

00:32:32.360 | So the number of fiddly bits,

00:32:34.720 | I'm sure there's a Wikipedia page on that now,

00:32:36.480 | as an index, is actually a really good one.

00:32:38.720 | - Well, and when you think about it,

00:32:40.040 | I don't know of any other company prior

00:32:42.480 | that had kind of tried to measure

00:32:44.360 | their performance of their engine,

00:32:45.360 | not in thrust to weight ratio,

00:32:47.240 | or how efficient it is in specific impulse,

00:32:49.220 | but literally in dollar to thrust ratio.

00:32:52.440 | How much does this engine cost?

00:32:55.000 | How much thrust can it produce?

00:32:56.560 | And using that as a trade study,

00:32:58.840 | instead of just pure metrics of,

00:33:01.320 | 'cause at the end of the day,

00:33:02.400 | okay, if it's cheaper and does X amount of work,

00:33:05.740 | even if it's less efficient,

00:33:06.840 | it can actually be better long-term.

00:33:09.360 | - And so I guess another way, it's not even just thrust.

00:33:12.240 | I don't know if that metric is used,

00:33:13.600 | but basically the cost of getting one kilogram

00:33:17.440 | of thing up into space.

00:33:19.580 | That's basically what they're trying to minimize.

00:33:21.600 | - Especially, yeah.

00:33:22.620 | At the end of the day,

00:33:24.300 | that is definitely the ultimate metric,

00:33:25.680 | is how much does one kilogram cost to orbit, eventually?

00:33:29.680 | But it's so funny,

00:33:30.760 | 'cause spaceflight is just the ultimate,

00:33:33.520 | it's the ultimate compromise.

00:33:34.880 | Every little thing,

00:33:36.640 | any variable can just change everything else.

00:33:38.960 | So you can tweak so many different things

00:33:40.680 | to get to different numbers and conclusions.

00:33:43.180 | But even things like on your first stage,

00:33:45.480 | when the rocket's pointing straight up

00:33:47.900 | and the engines are pointing straight down,

00:33:49.720 | you're dealing more with the thrust to weight ratio

00:33:52.120 | of the rocket.

00:33:52.960 | So how much thrust is it producing

00:33:53.800 | versus how much is gravity pulling down on it

00:33:56.480 | is actually a more important metric

00:33:57.980 | than how raw efficient the engine is.

00:34:00.440 | So it's funny.

00:34:01.280 | Then in space, it's kind of the opposite.

00:34:02.480 | Thrust to weight ratio doesn't really matter.

00:34:04.960 | What really matters is the actual,

00:34:06.680 | the specific impulse, let's call it,

00:34:08.080 | or the nozzle escape velocity,

00:34:11.200 | or the injection velocity of how fast is the gas moving.

00:34:15.040 | It's the more important number on orbit.

00:34:17.560 | But it's just so crazy,

00:34:19.160 | 'cause there's all these,

00:34:20.000 | I would just love to see the trade studies,

00:34:22.680 | when you're trying to figure out,

00:34:24.000 | is this more important than this, or this, or this?

00:34:25.560 | And it's like, you change this one little thing,

00:34:27.320 | and all of a sudden,

00:34:28.760 | all the, everything changes.

00:34:30.360 | It's just, even the profile,

00:34:32.320 | like the launch profile, the trajectory of it,

00:34:34.480 | I mean, everything.

00:34:35.520 | Everything.

00:34:37.320 | - I wonder what that trade-out discussions are like,

00:34:39.360 | 'cause you can't really perfectly plan everything.

00:34:41.880 | So, and you always have to have some spare leeway,

00:34:46.880 | especially as you're testing new vehicles, like Starship.

00:34:52.240 | - Yeah, margins are important.

00:34:53.900 | - Yeah, having a margin,

00:34:55.120 | given all the uncertainty that's there.

00:34:57.200 | That's really interesting,

00:34:58.040 | like how they do those kinds of trade-outs,

00:34:59.440 | 'cause they're also rapidly designing,

00:35:01.280 | and redesigning, and re-engineering.

00:35:03.520 | And the, ultimately, you wanna give yourself the freedom

00:35:08.160 | to constantly innovate,

00:35:09.560 | but then, through the process of testing,

00:35:12.480 | you solidify the thing that can be relied upon,

00:35:15.000 | especially if it's a crewed mission.

00:35:16.800 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:35:17.960 | - How to do that in a rapid cycle.

00:35:20.320 | - I remember at some point,

00:35:22.360 | that NASA, as they're leading up to flying humans

00:35:24.780 | for the first time for NASA,

00:35:26.180 | you know, there's some talk that like,

00:35:28.240 | we're gonna do a design freeze,

00:35:29.880 | because SpaceX does evolve and iterate so quickly.

00:35:33.040 | You know, they were saying that it was leading,

00:35:34.400 | 'cause especially at the time,

00:35:35.680 | it was a mission called Amos 6,

00:35:37.880 | and they lost a rocket.

00:35:39.160 | They've only lost two rockets, like ever, really,

00:35:41.760 | as far as, you know, trying to get something to space,

00:35:45.520 | for the Falcon 9, sorry.

00:35:46.720 | And the second one, Amos 6, I mean, that was back in 2016,

00:35:51.620 | so it's been a long time.

00:35:53.040 | But at the time, you know,

00:35:55.640 | they're looking at flying humans in the near future.

00:35:59.280 | And it's like, if you guys keep tweaking this thing

00:36:01.880 | every time you take it out to the pad,

00:36:03.840 | well, there's gonna be a problem, you know?

00:36:05.440 | And so there is some pressure from NASA

00:36:08.240 | to kind of slow down on that iterative process.

00:36:10.800 | And, but that is also why they were able to evolve

00:36:13.900 | the Falcon 9 to be what it is today,

00:36:15.200 | is because they did just evolve it so quickly.

00:36:17.840 | Literally like one after another was never really the same.

00:36:20.400 | And we're definitely seeing that with Starship now.

00:36:22.400 | Like it's evolved so quickly

00:36:25.760 | that you just can't even keep up with it, you know?

00:36:28.000 | - So there's a fascinating culture clash there.

00:36:30.960 | Have you just, in observing and interacting with NASA folks,

00:36:34.160 | seen them sort of grow and change and evolve themselves,

00:36:38.120 | sort of inspired by this new developments

00:36:40.280 | in commercial space flight?

00:36:41.620 | - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:36:42.480 | There's a lot of, especially like around DM-2,

00:36:44.800 | there's a lot of talks in the press conferences and stuff

00:36:46.960 | where you'd hear people say, you know,

00:36:49.160 | this was a big, this is well outside of our comfort zone

00:36:51.880 | to work with SpaceX in this manner,

00:36:53.280 | because we take this approach to things,

00:36:55.120 | we're X, Y, and Z in this way,

00:36:57.280 | the way we normally certify things.

00:36:59.200 | And we're not used to SpaceX like,

00:37:01.560 | well, let's just try it, you know,

00:37:03.200 | and do something, you know, to a point.

00:37:06.000 | And so they said it ended up being fantastic.

00:37:08.740 | They loved working that way because it was just

00:37:11.120 | less paperwork almost and more just do.

00:37:13.920 | And, but at the same time, SpaceX, I think even expressed,

00:37:17.680 | I don't remember if it was Hans Koenigsmann

00:37:19.280 | or someone in a press conference said,

00:37:20.800 | well, we really liked having someone just double check us

00:37:22.920 | so that we're not doing something super stupid

00:37:24.540 | right before we test something, you know.

00:37:26.940 | So there was a cool collaboration

00:37:28.400 | because it is two very different philosophies

00:37:31.240 | of development and managing, you know, space programs.

00:37:35.040 | - I wanted to talk to you a lot about engines

00:37:37.200 | and maybe about Starship and maybe about your own

00:37:41.440 | becoming an actual astronaut, but like,

00:37:43.520 | let's just go there before all that

00:37:46.400 | and talk about the actual culture of SpaceX.

00:37:50.480 | And your conversations with Elon,

00:37:53.720 | you've toured SpaceX facilities with him,

00:37:56.120 | you've interviewed him, you've interacted with him.

00:37:58.720 | What have you learned about rockets, about propulsion,

00:38:02.300 | about engineering, about design,

00:38:03.840 | about life from those interactions?

00:38:06.520 | He's pretty transparent, open human being as an engineer,

00:38:10.840 | as a leader, as a person.

00:38:13.280 | - I would definitely say the biggest takeaway I've had

00:38:16.280 | from my times with Elon at SpaceX is,

00:38:20.200 | like, the idea of questioning your constraints,

00:38:23.720 | he says that a lot, but he also does it a lot.

00:38:27.140 | There'll be times where like,

00:38:31.720 | you'll see him change on a dime

00:38:33.200 | because he's like rethinking of something

00:38:34.920 | in a new or different way.

00:38:36.240 | And for me, you know,

00:38:37.560 | I think we all put constraints on ourselves.

00:38:40.160 | We think about our own limits, you know,

00:38:42.480 | on things that we can or cannot do.

00:38:45.240 | And I think it's made me kind of question,

00:38:47.320 | like, well, why did I say, no, I can't do that?

00:38:50.960 | Or, you know, just off the top of my head.

00:38:54.840 | A good example.

00:38:55.800 | So in Iowa, I live in Iowa,

00:38:59.240 | or half the time or whatever,

00:39:01.320 | there's a bike ride across the state of Iowa called Rag Bry.

00:39:04.400 | And every year you just, you know,

00:39:05.880 | like thousands of people get together

00:39:07.240 | and they ride across Iowa.

00:39:09.080 | And it was last summer, I met up with some friends,

00:39:12.360 | and they're like, hey, do you wanna go on Rag Bry this year?

00:39:13.680 | I'm like, it's like a week away.

00:39:14.880 | They're like, yeah, you wanna go?

00:39:16.240 | I'm like, yeah.

00:39:18.080 | And so I did, you know, without,

00:39:19.520 | and it was one of those moments where I was proud of myself,

00:39:21.400 | 'cause it's like, it's easy to just be like, no,

00:39:23.880 | you know, I'm not ready, or this is my constraint.

00:39:26.280 | It's like, I'm not in shape.

00:39:28.180 | But like, just question that, you know?

00:39:29.680 | And so I think when it comes down

00:39:31.280 | to questioning your own constraints,

00:39:32.600 | it's yes, even to that level of like,

00:39:34.400 | why do you question yourself on what you can and cannot do?

00:39:37.120 | - So that's for your personal life is really powerful,

00:39:39.680 | but a little bit more intuitive.

00:39:41.480 | I think what's really hard is to question constraints

00:39:44.880 | in a place like aeronautics or robotics

00:39:49.280 | or autonomous vehicles or vehicles,

00:39:52.600 | because there's people, there's experts everywhere

00:39:56.160 | that have done it for decades.

00:39:58.040 | And everyone admires those experts

00:40:00.080 | and respects those experts.

00:40:01.280 | And for you to step into a room,

00:40:03.840 | knowing not much more than just

00:40:06.480 | what's in a Wikipedia article,

00:40:09.840 | and to just use your intuition

00:40:12.080 | and first principles thinking to disagree with the experts,

00:40:15.840 | that takes some guts, I think.

00:40:19.280 | - Well, and you can't have everyone doing that either.

00:40:21.240 | You know, like there has to be some humility

00:40:23.240 | of knowing that something is a hardened concept

00:40:26.680 | and a hardened, you know, like especially,

00:40:27.800 | I'm not an engineer.

00:40:28.760 | I don't do this stuff, you know?

00:40:30.840 | But I can imagine you sitting there

00:40:32.900 | having spent six years on a type of valve

00:40:35.200 | that perfectly manages cryogenic propellants or whatever,

00:40:38.040 | and someone walks in and says,

00:40:39.460 | why don't you just put a heater element in there?

00:40:40.920 | You know, or something that's, you know,

00:40:42.040 | something like, because, you know,

00:40:44.640 | we've done that 40 times or whatever, you know,

00:40:46.560 | like I'm sure there are things like that

00:40:49.400 | that are very frustrating,

00:40:51.200 | but see, so I don't know what that's like, you know?

00:40:53.960 | - The thing is, with the experts,

00:40:55.340 | they're always going to be frustrated

00:40:57.520 | when the newbie comes in

00:40:58.920 | with their first principles thinking,

00:41:00.800 | but sometimes that frustration is justified,

00:41:03.100 | and sometimes it's not.

00:41:04.680 | Sometimes it's just stubbornness

00:41:06.680 | for failing to acknowledge a better way.

00:41:08.960 | And I've seen it both directions,

00:41:10.680 | so which is really interesting.

00:41:11.680 | So you need both, but that tension's always going to be there

00:41:15.280 | and there has to be almost like a dictatorial imperative

00:41:19.560 | that breaks through the expertise

00:41:22.640 | of the way things have been done in the past

00:41:25.280 | to push forward like a new way of doing it.

00:41:27.280 | And Elon's done that.

00:41:29.280 | I've seen a lot of great engineers do that.

00:41:32.160 | I've seen in the machine learning world,

00:41:34.600 | because there's been so much development,

00:41:36.540 | I've seen that happen.

00:41:37.480 | Usually when there's like rapid development

00:41:39.680 | that starts to come into play.

00:41:41.480 | And yeah, and I've seen that autonomous vehicle space,

00:41:46.520 | brain-computer interfaces that Elon has evolved with,

00:41:49.080 | all of it.

00:41:49.920 | It's kind of fascinating to watch.

00:41:51.960 | What about the actual design and engineering of the engines?

00:41:54.640 | Since you've learned about so many different kinds of engines

00:41:59.060 | over the past few years,

00:42:01.020 | just like what stands out to you

00:42:02.400 | about the way that engineering is done at SpaceX

00:42:05.480 | or that Elon does engineering?

00:42:08.280 | - The hardest thing to kind of remember

00:42:12.240 | is like how much stuff was developed in the '50s and '60s.

00:42:15.800 | You know, the concepts finally being utilized today

00:42:18.840 | were already literally done in the '60s.

00:42:21.680 | So a lot of the things that SpaceX is doing

00:42:23.440 | isn't a novel concept per se.

00:42:27.040 | Like for instance, the Raptor engine

00:42:28.840 | utilizes the full flow stage combustion cycle engine.

00:42:32.480 | And that was already developed by the Soviets in the '60s

00:42:36.000 | for an engine called the RD-270.

00:42:37.880 | And it makes sense.

00:42:40.040 | Like on paper, 100% it makes sense

00:42:41.800 | because you're basically extracting

00:42:44.200 | the absolute maximum potential of the chemical energy

00:42:49.200 | in both propellants.

00:42:51.000 | And at the end of the day,

00:42:53.200 | like you have to be dumb enough to say,

00:42:54.880 | we're gonna try using this thing

00:42:56.040 | 'cause it's actually really complicated

00:42:57.880 | to do what they're doing.

00:42:59.720 | But at the same time, so are rockets.

00:43:01.560 | Like rocket engines are already stupid complicated.

00:43:03.760 | So adding 10, 20% more pain in the butt during the R&D,

00:43:08.760 | if it's in the long, long, long 20, 30 year existence

00:43:14.120 | or whatever, like future of that engine,

00:43:16.640 | is that gonna be worth it?

00:43:17.480 | Obviously SpaceX said, yeah,

00:43:19.320 | I think we can actually develop this Raptor engine.

00:43:22.400 | So it's just interesting to see the things

00:43:24.080 | that have been looked at, or even reusability.

00:43:26.560 | You know, like the space shuttle was reusable.

00:43:28.640 | It was fully, the upper stage, the shuttle itself,

00:43:32.320 | the orbiter was, I mean, that thing was,

00:43:35.000 | for all intents and purposes, a reusable rocket.

00:43:38.280 | Now, did it live up to its expectations?

00:43:40.480 | Not necessarily.

00:43:41.840 | So it left a lot of bad taste in people's mouth

00:43:44.640 | on the ideas of reusability.

00:43:46.960 | So for SpaceX to kind of come back into the room

00:43:48.720 | and on the table and say,

00:43:50.040 | we're gonna use a reusable rocket.

00:43:51.400 | Specifically, we're gonna do a fully reusable rocket.

00:43:53.440 | You know, a lot of people are, even still today,

00:43:55.160 | a lot of people are going,

00:43:56.960 | yeah, you're not gonna be able to do that.

00:43:59.320 | - Even today. - Even today.

00:44:00.920 | - So like long-term, you're not gonna be able

00:44:02.880 | to reuse at scale.

00:44:04.480 | - Yeah, but definitely, I think the number of people

00:44:09.320 | that are saying that today is a small portion

00:44:12.480 | of those that were saying that type of thing five years ago.

00:44:14.720 | You know, when Elon did that announcement in 2016

00:44:17.200 | for the ITS, it was very, very aspirational,

00:44:22.120 | and people were just like, yeah, right.

00:44:23.480 | You know, and there was a large number of people

00:44:25.440 | that had the factual reasons to think that and do that.

00:44:29.640 | You know, at the time, they'd only landed

00:44:31.280 | like two rockets or something, you know,

00:44:32.840 | when they did that, or maybe three.

00:44:34.080 | It was a very small number.

00:44:35.800 | When they announced that, actually, they had just lost,

00:44:38.080 | a couple months prior, they just lost a MO6.

00:44:40.320 | So they were still this young, blossoming company,

00:44:43.040 | and to come in and be like, we've figured out reusability,

00:44:45.000 | and now we're gonna go full-scale

00:44:46.600 | and make the world's biggest, most heaviest,

00:44:48.400 | most powerful rocket ever,

00:44:49.560 | and we're going to fully reuse it,

00:44:51.200 | and it's gonna go to Mars, was just pretty out there.

00:44:54.600 | Like, it really was, and, you know,

00:44:57.520 | it's all about perspective, but now, again,

00:44:59.400 | we're coming up on 100 consecutive landings

00:45:02.680 | of an orbital-class rocket that's, you know,

00:45:05.280 | 45 meters tall, 3.7 meters wide.

00:45:07.320 | Like, this thing is huge, weighs 20 metric tons,

00:45:09.920 | even empty, when it's landing.

00:45:12.440 | That thing's already huge, so seeing the success of that,

00:45:14.880 | I think people are now more like, well, okay,

00:45:17.200 | maybe there is actually the opportunity

00:45:19.960 | to be fully reusable.

00:45:20.840 | That's definitely probably the biggest constraint

00:45:23.040 | that I think has been questioned, that is--

00:45:24.960 | - The reusability. - Yep.

00:45:26.320 | - And then, of course, like, the broader one of cost,

00:45:28.440 | of bringing down costs, that you're able to kind of

00:45:32.840 | bring down costs so much,

00:45:34.920 | that something like colonizing Mars,

00:45:38.200 | or mini-trips to Mars would be a possibility.

00:45:40.640 | - Yeah. - People don't even,

00:45:42.280 | it seems so far out that they don't even have time

00:45:45.920 | or give effort to questioning it.

00:45:47.720 | - Yeah. - But it's the implied

00:45:49.160 | questioning, can you really do that many launches?

00:45:52.840 | - Actually do it. - Can you actually do it?

00:45:54.920 | Yeah. - It's looking,

00:45:55.760 | I think it's one of those things where you look at the curve.

00:45:57.800 | You look at like, 10 years ago, that was ridiculous.

00:46:01.560 | Following this curve, if SpaceX goes from,

00:46:04.280 | two years ago launching, I don't remember what it was,

00:46:06.280 | 40 times to 60 times to 100 times this year,

00:46:08.520 | is their amount, and if we just keep extrapolating that out,

00:46:12.880 | if they, maybe not that exponential,

00:46:15.000 | maybe it goes more linear or whatever,

00:46:17.360 | what's 20, 30 years?

00:46:19.080 | The amount of stuff we can put on orbit

00:46:20.840 | and the potential we have to do things, absolutely.

00:46:24.320 | Now I don't wanna put a time frame,

00:46:25.960 | yeah, I think, but you gotta think,

00:46:29.360 | we're increasing the number of launches,

00:46:31.040 | we're increasing the amount of things in space,

00:46:33.040 | we're increasing the amount of payload on orbit.

00:46:35.100 | That's probably not going to decrease anytime soon,

00:46:37.360 | and therefore, eventually, the idea of going to Mars

00:46:41.560 | is absolutely reasonable.

00:46:43.960 | - Let me ask a difficult question

00:46:45.600 | that needs to be asked here. (chuckles)

00:46:48.120 | Can SpaceX continue its successes without Elon?

00:46:52.960 | This long-term mission to Mars.

00:46:56.140 | I think the discussion about Tesla and autopilot

00:47:00.920 | or robotics or a neural link with brain-computer interfaces

00:47:04.960 | is a question wholly separate from the SpaceX question,

00:47:08.400 | because there's a lot of other competitors doing

00:47:15.680 | some different but amazing engineering that Tesla is doing,

00:47:20.120 | in both autonomous vehicles, semi-autonomy or full autonomy,

00:47:23.880 | and obviously in vehicle design and electric vehicles.

00:47:27.640 | There's a lot of people that are doing

00:47:28.960 | incredible brain-computer interfaces.

00:47:31.200 | But while there is a lot of competitors to SpaceX,

00:47:34.280 | and we'll talk about many of them,

00:47:35.480 | they're doing amazing work,

00:47:36.720 | it seems like he's really driving progress here

00:47:40.200 | over the past 10 years.

00:47:41.880 | What do you think about that?

00:47:43.760 | - Okay, the first thing I think to remind people

00:47:47.320 | is just how many brilliant people do work

00:47:49.840 | at each of these companies, obviously.

00:47:51.600 | Elon's had some of the best teams assembled ever,

00:47:55.840 | just incredible people.

00:47:57.000 | He knows this.

00:47:57.840 | He will gladly tell people, and he says it often,

00:48:01.160 | the amazing people, the amazing teams here.

00:48:02.960 | So it is important to remember that.

00:48:05.460 | That being said, there is something to Elon's

00:48:08.240 | just super far forward,

00:48:11.640 | not taking no for an answer on things approach.

00:48:14.940 | Almost to his dismay, I think,

00:48:19.800 | he is afraid of the sunk cost fallacy so much

00:48:23.200 | that it almost gets to the border of being,

00:48:26.160 | throw out everything before it's even,

00:48:29.400 | we've known it or not, but at the same time,

00:48:31.120 | it moves the needle so fast, so far.

00:48:34.720 | So as far as the question of would SpaceX continue

00:48:37.440 | to succeeding and be able to ultimately go to Mars

00:48:40.800 | without Elon, the Mars thing, I think,

00:48:43.240 | would probably be hard to uphold without,

00:48:45.600 | I think a lot of that drive for Mars is from Elon.

00:48:48.220 | It is maybe too fantastical for the average person

00:48:51.760 | and the average employee and maybe the average CEO

00:48:53.800 | that might step in to have a company's mission

00:48:56.720 | be to go to Mars.

00:48:57.560 | - Or even governments, clearly, because like you said,

00:49:01.220 | the Mars plan was non-existent for NASA.

00:49:03.800 | - Yeah, still really, there isn't much.

00:49:06.800 | So I think if--

00:49:09.960 | - How many people, and sorry to interrupt,

00:49:11.600 | how many people are talking about it's obvious

00:49:14.440 | that we need to become multi-planetary?

00:49:16.640 | - Right, there's not, there's the Mars Society.

00:49:20.720 | - Like serious leaders of engineering efforts

00:49:24.480 | or nations and so on.

00:49:26.240 | Which it does seem, if you think about it,

00:49:30.000 | that it's obvious.

00:49:31.640 | - Yeah, and the grand eventuality, it is obvious.

00:49:35.080 | Of human civilization, this whole human experiment

00:49:37.720 | we have here, we should be expanding out into the cosmos.

00:49:42.160 | - 100%.

00:49:43.120 | So I think the big mission, if we're measuring SpaceX's

00:49:47.240 | success on getting to Mars or not,

00:49:49.440 | I think they'd have a really hard time

00:49:51.240 | continuing to fulfill that drive without Elon at the helm.

00:49:55.420 | Now, I think there's a certain balance and beauty of Elon,

00:50:00.520 | specifically when it was Tesla and SpaceX,

00:50:03.000 | where Elon will go in, have mild tornadoes

00:50:07.560 | around the factory and the engineering,

00:50:09.640 | and mix everything up, and things get sometimes

00:50:13.200 | just totally thrown together.

00:50:14.760 | And totally just get it done, just to get it done

00:50:18.360 | and start moving in that direction.

00:50:20.220 | And then he'll leave and go do that same thing

00:50:21.840 | at SpaceX or Tesla, vice versa.

00:50:23.900 | And then there's a little bit of a calm

00:50:25.340 | where people come back in and they fill in those gaps.

00:50:28.240 | I think that's always been a pretty healthy thing,

00:50:30.440 | honestly, is I think if he is too focused on any one thing,

00:50:35.440 | it almost is like he'll spin too much.

00:50:37.820 | - Too many tornadoes.

00:50:40.120 | - Yeah, too many tornadoes.

00:50:41.600 | And I think it could almost be,

00:50:44.080 | you need someone to come back in and backfill almost.

00:50:48.000 | 'Cause I've heard definitely stories of,

00:50:50.080 | probably a good example would be last,

00:50:53.880 | last, what was that, last year or two years ago?

00:50:55.800 | 2022, yeah.

00:50:58.280 | Was that, yeah.

00:50:59.120 | Or no.

00:50:59.940 | In 2021, they did the first full stack

00:51:02.720 | of the Starship Super Heavy.

00:51:05.100 | And they called it the big surge.

00:51:06.740 | All of a sudden thousands of SpaceX employees

00:51:09.720 | came down to Starbase and they just started building

00:51:12.480 | like you wouldn't freaking believe.

00:51:14.320 | I mean, it's just things going crazy.

00:51:16.640 | BP, it was actually in the middle,

00:51:17.680 | that first interview I did with him

00:51:18.800 | was in the middle of that surge.

00:51:20.400 | There was commotion like you wouldn't believe.

00:51:22.320 | You couldn't hardly talk

00:51:23.200 | because there's just so much going on.

00:51:24.880 | People just welding and blah, blah, blah.

00:51:27.560 | Everything they did during that period was basically scrapped

00:51:31.020 | 'cause it was just not done very well.

00:51:34.520 | But they got a fully stacked Starship rocket

00:51:38.420 | out on their launch pad.

00:51:39.620 | I think at some point you kind of have to

00:51:44.640 | stabilize some things enough and just say like,

00:51:46.380 | this is what we're doing to catalyze some things

00:51:49.340 | and say, now do this.

00:51:50.420 | It's almost like do it for fake, now do it for real almost.

00:51:53.460 | It's funny 'cause through that time,

00:51:55.260 | 'cause I had a lot, a lot of conversation with him.

00:51:57.100 | I think that process was hugely stressful.

00:52:00.700 | There was a sense, I don't know where that sense is today,

00:52:03.060 | but there's a sense that Starship

00:52:04.940 | is going to be very hard to pull off.

00:52:07.100 | - Yeah, that's still--

00:52:08.500 | - Borderline impossible to pull off.

00:52:10.980 | And that was really weighing heavy on him

00:52:13.180 | and the team and everybody.

00:52:15.020 | So to have this chaos of development is fascinating.

00:52:18.260 | - Yeah, big time.

00:52:19.700 | And I think they really had to push.

00:52:22.260 | If they hadn't done that,

00:52:24.180 | if they hadn't done that big push,

00:52:26.880 | we might only be now seeing a rocket stacked

00:52:30.560 | for the first time.

00:52:31.680 | It might be a lot more finished rocket,

00:52:34.200 | a lot more high fidelity,

00:52:35.840 | a lot more flight worthy rocket finished and stacked,

00:52:39.040 | but, and they might not have to walk stuff backwards,

00:52:41.760 | but at the same time, like you do have to,

00:52:44.240 | in this world, you do have to push really hard

00:52:47.480 | to make rapid iteration and rapid change in progress.

00:52:51.560 | So it's interesting, I don't know.

00:52:53.720 | - So lingering on that, another question

00:52:57.400 | I really should ask you because of,

00:53:00.720 | you've seen, you've been in awe of the amazing development

00:53:05.720 | of space travel technology over the past few years.

00:53:11.040 | What do you think about Elon buying Twitter?

00:53:14.620 | So in this perfect balance,

00:53:17.560 | optimized reallocation of tornadoes

00:53:20.880 | throughout the various efforts in human civilization,

00:53:25.200 | do you think, do you worry about his involvement on Twitter?

00:53:28.320 | - I mean, personally, I just,

00:53:30.840 | I see that as a lot less important than,

00:53:34.480 | and personally for me, inspirational than Starship

00:53:38.000 | and the work done at SpaceX and Tesla.

00:53:40.120 | To me, those were two very impactful

00:53:43.520 | and really, really just generally like,

00:53:46.200 | uniting, like something to rally around,

00:53:49.680 | get excited about, rally,

00:53:51.120 | and just like a future to look forward to.

00:53:53.280 | The idea of we're gonna be building

00:53:56.320 | the world's most powerful, biggest rocket ever,

00:53:58.480 | and it's eventually gonna be able to get humans on Mars

00:54:00.660 | for the first time.

00:54:01.720 | And we're gonna transition the world

00:54:03.060 | into fully sustainable, awesome,

00:54:05.360 | just totally badass cars that do all these cool things.

00:54:08.700 | To me, those were like, that brought a sense of unity

00:54:11.320 | and a sense of like, we can do this.

00:54:13.380 | Personally, I just don't think that a social media,

00:54:17.480 | no matter what it is, I don't see that in a social media.

00:54:21.200 | And I don't see any sort of politicking as ever,

00:54:25.280 | anything that's really ever a uniting thing.

00:54:27.880 | - I understand that, I totally agree with you,

00:54:29.560 | especially with space, how inspiring it is.

00:54:31.480 | I have to push back, I do think the impact of social media,

00:54:36.220 | the basic level of meaningful connections

00:54:42.280 | of this collective intelligence

00:54:45.520 | that we call human civilization

00:54:48.000 | through the medium of digital communication,

00:54:50.760 | which is social media, I think that can have a huge impact.

00:54:53.920 | It could be the very vehicle that increases the inspiration

00:54:57.080 | that SpaceX does and all different.

00:54:59.880 | The thing I've criticized them a bunch for

00:55:03.440 | is like, why bring politics into this?

00:55:06.920 | So the political divisions that we see on Twitter,

00:55:10.560 | feeding them is tricky.

00:55:14.760 | It's tricky to sort of understand

00:55:17.240 | what is the value of that,

00:55:18.280 | what is the contribution of that

00:55:20.120 | to this whole effort we've got going on.

00:55:23.700 | So that's been a big challenge.

00:55:26.360 | But that said, again, this tornado,

00:55:29.080 | the number of tornadoes in social media,

00:55:32.400 | I think is really important,

00:55:33.500 | because social media has such a huge impact

00:55:37.320 | on us as a society.

00:55:39.280 | And to have a transparent, have a bit of turmoil,

00:55:45.280 | it's like Tom Waits says,

00:55:47.320 | I like my town with a bit of drop of poison,

00:55:49.480 | with a little drop of poison.

00:55:51.160 | So a little bit of that to shake things up,

00:55:55.080 | I think might be really healthy.

00:55:56.120 | I just worry about the long-term impact

00:55:58.760 | on the whole Mars project through that.

00:56:01.760 | But you know what?

00:56:02.700 | This life, one of the reasons it's fun

00:56:06.520 | is through the chaos,

00:56:09.680 | none of us know how it's gonna turn out.

00:56:12.760 | And hopefully we try to help each other

00:56:15.560 | to make sure it turns out well.

00:56:17.280 | - And this really isn't like anything

00:56:19.440 | about my personal politics or anything like that,

00:56:22.160 | but really just generally,

00:56:24.400 | any of my friends that are like,

00:56:26.400 | the first thing you hear about them in their day

00:56:28.640 | is something that happened in politics

00:56:30.320 | or something that some world leader's doing or not doing

00:56:32.920 | or saying and not saying.

00:56:34.820 | I just don't find that to be the most important thing,

00:56:38.120 | really.

00:56:39.220 | I know that obviously that can affect a lot of people,

00:56:41.720 | that has big real-world consequences, politics do.

00:56:45.360 | Well, I just, and this is just me,

00:56:47.740 | I'm such a come-together, cheerio kind of guy,

00:56:51.920 | that I just really think you need something bigger

00:56:54.120 | than bickering about what people said and did

00:56:58.480 | and what they voted on and all this stuff

00:57:00.880 | to really push humanity forward.

00:57:03.320 | I know that politics and by extracting that,

00:57:08.000 | social media can affect things like space flight

00:57:10.760 | and even our planetary defense,

00:57:12.520 | being able to defend ourselves against asteroids.

00:57:14.200 | If politics has their way and everything goes to crap

00:57:17.760 | and we don't even get to,

00:57:19.480 | yeah, we're not gonna be able to continue space flight

00:57:22.920 | and things like that.

00:57:24.160 | But I don't know, I just think there's better ways to do it

00:57:26.760 | and more uniting ways to do it

00:57:28.240 | than what feels like immature name-calling sometimes.

00:57:33.160 | - Yeah, I think the political bickering

00:57:34.520 | that most people talk about

00:57:35.760 | that's on top of most people's minds

00:57:38.280 | is the thing that'll be completely forgotten by history.

00:57:40.480 | It has actually very little impact.

00:57:42.480 | Yes, politics matters, but like 1% of it.

00:57:45.320 | I think most of it is just political bickering,

00:57:50.160 | the push and pull of the red team and the blue team

00:57:53.520 | and then the news media

00:57:57.040 | that feeds off the division for the attention.

00:57:59.800 | And it's just like a fun athletic event almost

00:58:02.720 | with the blue team and the red team.

00:58:04.480 | So that you kind of have to have

00:58:06.600 | a historical perspective on it.

00:58:08.480 | Most things will not really have a significant impact.

00:58:13.120 | And we should focus on development of science,

00:58:15.880 | technology, engineering,

00:58:17.240 | which is the thing that grows the pie.

00:58:19.560 | - 100%.

00:58:20.760 | - This is what the economists know well.

00:58:23.000 | Just the innovation, the engineering,

00:58:24.800 | that's what actually makes everybody richer.

00:58:26.880 | This kind of political bickering is just eating the pie.

00:58:29.760 | - And not just richer, but it improves their lives.

00:58:32.760 | We can look at every modern technology

00:58:35.680 | that is bestowed upon us today,

00:58:37.680 | air conditioning, electricity, internet access,

00:58:39.760 | fresh, clean water, running water, blah, blah, blah.

00:58:43.040 | 100 years ago, so many of the things that I listed

00:58:44.880 | either didn't exist or were only accessible

00:58:47.080 | by the ultra wealthy.

00:58:49.040 | And it's through the innovation of technology

00:58:50.920 | and engineering and education that we're able to have it be

00:58:55.200 | that even someone below the poverty line

00:58:57.080 | in the most of the developed world

00:58:58.240 | will have a good number of those things in their life.

00:59:00.840 | And that's just continuing to increase

00:59:02.720 | and continue to get better.

00:59:04.400 | So I think, yeah, to me that's in the grand scheme

00:59:08.600 | more important, but to each their own.

00:59:11.260 | - Speaking of amazing technological development,

00:59:14.980 | you have a few videos on this,

00:59:17.740 | but how does a rocket engine work?

00:59:19.840 | You're wearing some of the instruction manuals,

00:59:25.320 | but for one type of it, like what's the fuel?

00:59:28.680 | What are the types of different rockets

00:59:30.800 | that you can kind of give an overview?

00:59:33.160 | - Yeah, ultimately a rocket engine converts

00:59:37.240 | high pressure and heat into kinetic energy.

00:59:40.120 | Like that's the only real job of a rocket engine

00:59:42.560 | is to take a high pressure gas, hot high pressure gas,

00:59:46.480 | very energized, there's a lot of energy involved,

00:59:49.000 | and then literally turning that into molecules

00:59:53.480 | shooting in one direction into kinetic energy.

00:59:55.960 | So yeah, what you do basically,

00:59:59.040 | I mean, the simplest version of it is of course,

01:00:01.220 | like famously a balloon.

01:00:02.440 | You take a balloon, you fill it up with air,

01:00:04.160 | you've got a pressure, you let go of it,

01:00:07.200 | some of the air shoots out in a general direction-ish,

01:00:10.680 | you converted that pressure into kinetic energy.

01:00:12.520 | Now, if you start scaling that up,

01:00:14.720 | you can continue to do something like that,

01:00:16.400 | like cold gas thruster would be kind of the most simple

01:00:19.560 | and easiest rocket engine to make,

01:00:21.360 | would be a cold gas thruster.

01:00:22.920 | And all that is you literally just take air

01:00:25.040 | or specifically nitrogen,

01:00:26.320 | 'cause it's a little bit more dense than all the others,

01:00:28.440 | or it's the majority of our atmosphere.

01:00:31.240 | You can, or sorry, it's more sparse.

01:00:33.920 | You can condense that down,

01:00:36.000 | sort a really high pressure bottle,

01:00:37.880 | and then just literally shoot it through

01:00:40.320 | what's called a DeLaval nozzle,

01:00:41.640 | which is something that chokes the flow a little bit,

01:00:43.720 | gets it to be, takes it and gets it into supersonic speeds.

01:00:48.560 | Once it's at supersonic speed,

01:00:50.120 | you actually can't choke it down anymore.

01:00:51.600 | You'll just constrict the flow of mass flow,

01:00:54.240 | you'll constrict the airflow.

01:00:56.120 | So you actually go opposite, you start making it wider.

01:00:58.880 | And once it's already at supersonic speeds,

01:01:00.920 | if you expand it and make it wider,

01:01:02.600 | it actually gets faster and faster.

01:01:04.280 | So at first, when it's subsonic gas,

01:01:06.800 | you start shrinking, you constrict the flow,

01:01:10.040 | it's actually speeding up, just like a highway.

01:01:12.160 | If you go from, or any of these examples,

01:01:14.360 | like a water hose, if you pinch it down

01:01:17.600 | and you wanna flow the same amount of water

01:01:18.920 | from point A to point B through a smaller pipe,

01:01:21.040 | you can flow more water, the same amount of water

01:01:23.360 | from point A to point B with a smaller pipe,

01:01:24.960 | it just has to go faster.

01:01:26.720 | So obviously you can constrict it,

01:01:27.840 | but at some point you actually get to a physical limitation

01:01:29.960 | and that happens to be the speed of sound.

01:01:32.360 | Once it gets to the local speed of sound,

01:01:34.360 | you can then actually do the opposite.

01:01:36.800 | You actually expand it back out

01:01:38.200 | and you're continuing to convert the pressure

01:01:42.040 | into velocity at that point, but it's now supersonic.

01:01:45.200 | And what's interesting is while you're doing that,

01:01:47.520 | you're actually cooling it down too.

01:01:49.120 | Each bit of that pipe that you're making wider

01:01:51.760 | and wider and wider, you're cooling down.

01:01:53.920 | So the more heat energy you have to work with,

01:01:56.680 | the more work you can actually do.

01:01:58.080 | So at some point, a hot high pressure rocket engine

01:02:00.880 | is the best source of,

01:02:03.120 | that's the ultimate amount of work you can do.

01:02:05.200 | - And the nozzle, so as you're saying,

01:02:07.160 | there's a bunch of different design options,

01:02:09.840 | but it's a critical part of this,

01:02:11.880 | how you do that conversion.

01:02:13.440 | - It's basically like how much can you convert

01:02:16.880 | is really the ultimate game.

01:02:18.440 | How much pressure and heat can we convert into thrust?

01:02:22.880 | Really at the end of the day,

01:02:23.760 | that's what a rocket engine is.

01:02:25.520 | So you have to have a powerful enough rocket engine

01:02:27.200 | to actually lift the rocket and,

01:02:29.720 | well, a rocket is mostly just fuel.

01:02:31.880 | It's like 90 plus percent just the weight of fuel.

01:02:35.400 | So you just have to lift the fuel

01:02:36.520 | that's going to take it into orbit.

01:02:39.360 | - And that's the thing specifically for rockets,

01:02:42.160 | you're just saying generally rocket engines,

01:02:44.080 | but for the task of going to orbit,

01:02:47.600 | you're fighting gravity, Earth gravity,

01:02:50.120 | which is fundamentally different than moon gravity

01:02:52.800 | or Mars gravity, or like you said,

01:02:56.400 | traveling out into space,

01:02:57.480 | Earth has a pretty intense gravity to overcome.

01:03:02.480 | - We're lucky, 'cause I think if it was 10% either way,

01:03:05.760 | like 10% harder, it'd be like, ugh, we could still do it.

01:03:10.320 | We'd still, with our current technology,

01:03:11.840 | we'd still be able to get stuff into orbit,

01:03:13.120 | but man, things like reusability and this commercialization,

01:03:17.720 | the success that we've seen in the last 10 years,

01:03:19.280 | we'd just be on too thin a margins, I think.

01:03:21.760 | 10% easier and we would have been like,

01:03:24.360 | I mean, it's just like totally different.

01:03:25.960 | It's so much easier.

01:03:27.440 | It's like this big sliding scale

01:03:29.600 | and 10% in either direction,

01:03:30.960 | we'd be either screwed or really happy,

01:03:33.320 | as far as getting into space.

01:03:36.240 | So it's just hard enough that things like fully reusable

01:03:39.400 | becomes very, very, very difficult.

01:03:41.600 | I think it's completely achievable.

01:03:43.760 | We have all the pieces to make it achievable.

01:03:45.720 | It does not disobey any laws of physics.

01:03:47.440 | It does not disobey any, there's no hard stops.

01:03:50.080 | It's just very, very, very hard.

01:03:52.680 | And so ultimately, yeah,

01:03:54.520 | on Earth for the first bit of launch,

01:03:56.600 | again, when the rocket's pointing straight up

01:03:58.440 | and the engines are pointing straight down,

01:04:00.280 | pointing end up flaming down, you're fighting gravity.

01:04:03.400 | And so that's kind of your biggest enemy

01:04:05.440 | outside of the Earth's atmosphere too.

01:04:07.240 | - So what kind of sources of fuel is there?

01:04:10.480 | So there's chemical rockets, liquid, solid, gas, hybrid.

01:04:14.640 | There's electric.

01:04:15.480 | So what are the kinds of fuels we're talking about?

01:04:18.400 | What are oxidizers?

01:04:19.240 | What, can you just explain your shirt, I guess?

01:04:21.760 | (laughing)

01:04:23.040 | - Yeah.

01:04:24.400 | Components of the shirt.

01:04:25.760 | - So really, I mean, fuels, there's kind of two terms.

01:04:30.760 | Well, you'll generally hear the word propellant being used.

01:04:33.720 | It's anything that is used to propel a spacecraft

01:04:36.040 | or used in a rocket engine.

01:04:37.240 | So you have to have, you can have a fuel.

01:04:40.320 | You have to have a fuel, you have to have an oxidizer,

01:04:42.360 | and you have to have a spark

01:04:43.480 | to actually get those things burning.

01:04:45.640 | And that's just a general law of like the universe.

01:04:48.680 | You have to have fuel, an oxidizer, and a spark.

01:04:51.720 | Now, some fuels will by themselves spark,

01:04:55.040 | like hypergolic fuels, but ultimately you're always left

01:04:58.080 | with some kind of fuel oxidizer and a spark.

01:05:00.000 | So the general ones used most often in rockets,

01:05:03.280 | liquid oxygen is kind of the king of,

01:05:05.560 | well, there's better oxidizers,

01:05:07.280 | but they're extremely, extremely hard to work with,

01:05:09.480 | like fluorine, but generally liquid oxygen.

01:05:13.480 | So you just chill oxygen down to its liquid state,

01:05:16.080 | minus 183 degrees Celsius.

01:05:18.920 | So it can be dense enough to store in tanks.

01:05:21.320 | You know, it's a thousand times more dense

01:05:22.800 | when it's in a liquid than it is as a gas.

01:05:25.240 | RP-1, which is basically kerosene, is a very common fuel.

01:05:31.080 | Another common fuel nowadays is methane, liquid methane.

01:05:34.720 | Liquid hydrogen is another, it's the most efficient,

01:05:38.800 | potential for the most efficient,

01:05:40.120 | since it's one of the lightest molecules.

01:05:42.400 | - So I think, correct me if I'm wrong,

01:05:44.840 | but Falcon 9 uses kerosene,

01:05:48.040 | and then Starship uses methane, liquid methane?

01:05:51.360 | - Yep, for fuel, and they both use liquid oxygen

01:05:53.240 | for their oxidizer.

01:05:54.060 | - For their oxidizer, okay.

01:05:54.900 | - Yep.

01:05:56.380 | But then, you know, if you get into hypergolics,

01:05:58.160 | you'll normally have nitrogen tetroxide,

01:06:00.320 | which is your oxidizer,

01:06:01.780 | and some form of hydrazine for your fuel.

01:06:04.860 | There's solid rocket propellants,

01:06:07.660 | like solid rocket boosters,

01:06:08.720 | and those are actually premixed.

01:06:10.160 | Your oxidizer is inherently, like, baked,

01:06:13.280 | literally, like, kind of baked into the sludge of fuel.

01:06:16.680 | - So, like, for SpaceX, it's all chemical, liquid fuels.

01:06:20.840 | - Yep, yep.

01:06:21.680 | - So how many solid-based fuels are there?

01:06:25.440 | Is that, are they still being used today,

01:06:26.760 | or is there most rockets?

01:06:27.800 | - Yeah, and the United States really is the only ones that,

01:06:30.400 | well, the only ones, I guess, early on,

01:06:32.640 | 'cause it was really just the Soviet Union

01:06:33.840 | versus the United States.

01:06:35.260 | The United States started to use solids pretty early on.

01:06:38.160 | They're simple and easy, but these days, like,

01:06:40.400 | you know, you'll still see 'em kind of as,

01:06:42.160 | traditionally, like, boosters.

01:06:43.480 | Like, they're used to just help get something

01:06:47.040 | off the ground or help give it a little extra boost.

01:06:49.740 | So the Space Shuttle famously had those two huge,

01:06:51.760 | white solid rocket boosters attached

01:06:53.840 | to the orange fuel tank.

01:06:55.260 | Those are solid rocket propellants.

01:06:57.720 | Things like the Atlas V can have up to five

01:07:00.600 | smaller solid rocket boosters.

01:07:02.600 | There's very few rockets that use a pure,

01:07:05.320 | at least these days, that use a pure solid rocket motor

01:07:08.440 | for its first stage.

01:07:10.120 | There still are, especially in China.

01:07:11.560 | There's a lot of startup rocket companies

01:07:13.200 | that kind of use just missile technology.

01:07:15.080 | You know, they might use, like,

01:07:16.040 | there might just be a variant of an ICBM

01:07:18.800 | that just use solid rocket fuel,

01:07:20.200 | 'cause it is very, relatively easy to develop.

01:07:22.880 | You know, model rockets use solid rocket motors

01:07:25.840 | and stuff like that.

01:07:26.660 | So they're still around, but they're just not as elegant

01:07:29.440 | and not as, yeah, not as used these days, I'd say.

01:07:33.000 | - So what are rocket engine cycles?

01:07:35.400 | Getting, I think, getting more towards your shirt question.

01:07:39.040 | You have a really good video called,

01:07:40.800 | that, I mean, a lot of your videos

01:07:42.920 | that are technical are just exceptionally well done.

01:07:45.860 | So I just, I think you deserve all the props you get.

01:07:50.860 | I mean, thank you for doing this work.

01:07:52.940 | Really, really, really, really well done.

01:07:55.320 | So it's called Rocket Engine Cycles,

01:07:57.180 | How Do You Power a Rocket Engine?

01:07:59.100 | And you go through all the different options.

01:08:01.060 | Is there something you could say about open cycle,

01:08:04.220 | closed cycle, full flow, all the different variants

01:08:07.340 | that you can use words to explain?

01:08:10.240 | - Yeah, without all the pretty pictures.

01:08:11.680 | - Yeah, without the pretty pictures.

01:08:13.000 | - So ultimately, like we said, your ultimate goal

01:08:16.000 | is you want to get heat and pressure into an engine.

01:08:19.840 | So obviously at some point,

01:08:21.140 | you can either make really thick tanks of your rocket.

01:08:23.980 | You can get it so thick that you store the propellants

01:08:26.840 | in really, really high pressures.

01:08:28.540 | But obviously that doesn't scale very well.

01:08:30.560 | At some point, your rocket's so heavy,

01:08:31.680 | you can't even leave the ground,

01:08:33.200 | or it's just so much of your mass

01:08:35.280 | is just literally the walls of the rocket.

01:08:36.780 | So at some point, people realize,

01:08:38.600 | hey, we could actually just pump the fuels

01:08:41.240 | and the oxidizer into the engine at a high pressure

01:08:43.520 | and increase the pressure through a pump.

01:08:46.160 | Now obviously a pump's going to require energy.

01:08:48.200 | You have to get that energy from somewhere.

01:08:50.900 | And again, at some point people were like,

01:08:52.680 | well, rockets are, there's already rocket fuel here.

01:08:56.320 | We'll just use some of the energy from the rocket fuel

01:08:58.660 | to spin these pumps.

01:09:00.160 | So that would be considered like open cycle,

01:09:02.720 | closed cycle, full flow stage combustion cycle

01:09:05.080 | are ways to tap into the propellant.

01:09:08.260 | Actually, and then there's tap off, expander cycle.

01:09:09.880 | I mean, all of them kind of do the same thing,

01:09:11.880 | but you end up at some point spinning a turbine.

01:09:14.720 | You know, a turbine can take some of the heat energy

01:09:18.120 | and the pressure of an engine,

01:09:21.960 | and then that can be connected to a shaft to pumps.

01:09:25.100 | And those pumps can increase the pressure of the propellants

01:09:29.120 | and force it into the combustion chamber.

01:09:31.160 | Now, the difference between open cycle,

01:09:33.880 | closed cycle, full flow, all those,

01:09:35.320 | is what happens after the gas has flown through the turbine.

01:09:40.240 | So after you've used the turbine and spun up the energy,

01:09:43.400 | you know, spun up the engine, what happens to that gas?

01:09:46.040 | So in an open cycle engine,

01:09:47.680 | you basically have like a separate small rocket engine

01:09:50.760 | in a sense, it's a gas generator, they call it.

01:09:53.360 | And that will be used to create some of, you know,

01:09:56.360 | take a little, we'll say 10% of your,

01:09:58.540 | the propellant flowing to the engine.

01:10:00.400 | Instead you reroute it to like a smaller rocket engine

01:10:02.800 | called the gas generator.

01:10:04.080 | You point that at your turbine

01:10:06.000 | and that will spin your turbine up to, you know,

01:10:07.560 | ridiculous speeds, 30,000 plus RPM.

01:10:10.460 | And then after it spins, it's wasted most of its energy,

01:10:14.120 | you know, and it's just dumped overboard.

01:10:16.700 | That would be open cycle.

01:10:17.840 | You're not worrying about it after that point,

01:10:19.640 | but you are left with a lot of unburnt, you know,

01:10:22.920 | unused fuel, a good amount of that fuel is just completely,

01:10:25.760 | and especially because the turbine,

01:10:28.040 | you have to keep it from melting.

01:10:30.340 | So you can't run it at like optimal ratios,

01:10:34.260 | not necessarily stoichiometric.

01:10:35.500 | In a rocket engine, you actually don't want it

01:10:37.340 | to be near stoichiometric,

01:10:38.640 | where you're releasing all the energy.

01:10:40.900 | You actually wanna release,

01:10:42.780 | you actually wanna be throwing out the lighter molecules

01:10:44.780 | so it can be shot out faster generally in the engine.

01:10:47.700 | So, but in order to have a turbine survive,

01:10:50.660 | you have to actually cool,

01:10:51.900 | you have to have the gas going through it.

01:10:54.180 | It can't be stupid, stupid hotter

01:10:55.720 | or else they're just gonna melt your turbine.

01:10:57.300 | So they normally, especially in the open cycle,

01:10:59.700 | you just run it really fuel rich.

01:11:01.700 | So there's a lot of extra fuel being pumped into it

01:11:04.940 | that will keep the temperatures at a reasonable,

01:11:07.940 | you know, at a reasonable temperature.

01:11:09.460 | So you end up with this like dark sooty smoke

01:11:11.460 | pouring out of that gas generator.

01:11:13.420 | That's just unburnt fuel, it's just wasted fuel.

01:11:16.100 | It never got a chance to be used.

01:11:17.860 | - Oh, interesting.

01:11:18.700 | - You know, like in the combustion chamber,

01:11:19.700 | it's not being used to propel the rocket.

01:11:21.780 | You know, it's just being used to cool down the propellant

01:11:25.140 | that's being used to spin the turbine,

01:11:26.780 | that's being used to spin the pumps

01:11:28.340 | to push a lot of propellant into the engine.

01:11:30.780 | So, you know, it doesn't take too long

01:11:33.180 | before you're a greedy rocket scientist

01:11:35.540 | being like, look at all this wasted propellant,

01:11:37.660 | all this potential energy that's just literally

01:11:39.660 | being spewed out the side of the rocket.

01:11:41.700 | So that's where the closed cycle comes in.

01:11:44.100 | So now we have to get that propellant,

01:11:45.900 | take it from basically what was being wasted

01:11:48.900 | through the turbine, and you're gonna try

01:11:50.380 | pumping it back into the engine.

01:11:52.500 | Now you don't literally just pump that gas

01:11:56.340 | into the engine, 'cause it's actually way too low

01:12:00.460 | of pressure compared to the main combustion chamber.

01:12:04.020 | By that point, by the time it's gone through the turbine,

01:12:05.860 | it's lost most of its pressure and heat to the turbine.

01:12:08.500 | So if you tried pumping it into the engine,

01:12:10.500 | you know, just taking that pipe and sticking it

01:12:11.900 | right into the combustion chamber,

01:12:13.380 | that much higher pressure, hotter combustion chamber

01:12:15.820 | would just go backwards, and it'd stall out the engine,

01:12:18.860 | and it'd blow up the engine, and whatever, what have you.

01:12:21.480 | So what they actually do is they normally will send,

01:12:24.260 | there might be some variations of this,

01:12:25.860 | but the general concept is you actually flow

01:12:27.380 | all of your fuel or all of your oxidizer

01:12:30.940 | through the turbine.

01:12:32.460 | So that would be closed cycle.

01:12:34.260 | So there's fuel-rich closed cycle,

01:12:36.180 | which would be you're flowing all of the fuel

01:12:38.580 | through the turbine, or there's oxidizer closed cycle,

01:12:42.020 | which is where you're flowing all of the oxidizer

01:12:43.700 | that's going into the engine through the turbine.

01:12:45.820 | Now the trick here is you have to have that turbine

01:12:49.660 | after it's done its work, so after it's taken

01:12:51.820 | some of the potential energy, some of the heat energy

01:12:53.760 | from, we're not calling it a pre-burner, by the way,

01:12:55.740 | instead of it being a gas generator,

01:12:57.660 | you now call that device that's creating pressure

01:13:01.260 | to spin the turbine, you're now calling that a pre-burner,

01:13:03.180 | 'cause it's just going to pre-burn some of your fuel

01:13:05.940 | or some of your oxidizer.

01:13:07.660 | The trick is that has to be, by the time it's gone

01:13:10.080 | through the turbine, it has to be higher pressure

01:13:13.420 | than the combustion chamber, because otherwise,

01:13:15.420 | it's gonna go backwards still.

01:13:17.340 | So you really have to get that pre-burner

01:13:19.060 | up to ridiculously high pressures,

01:13:22.220 | like at least 20% higher than your main combustion chamber.

01:13:24.940 | And these combustion chambers, we're talking about engines

01:13:27.060 | that are at 200, 100 to 200, even in SpaceX's Raptor engine,

01:13:32.060 | up to 300 bar in the main combustion chamber,

01:13:34.980 | so that's, what is that, 4,500 PSI, basically.

01:13:38.940 | Insane amounts of pressure inside these combustion chambers.

01:13:42.260 | So your turbine has to be even above that,

01:13:43.900 | or your gas generator, or your pre-burner, sorry,

01:13:46.460 | has to be higher pressure than that even

01:13:48.820 | in order to have the flow going the right direction

01:13:50.820 | through the engine.

01:13:52.060 | So now you'll have those closed cycles,

01:13:54.460 | you'll have fuel-rich, you have oxidizer-rich.

01:13:57.780 | The tricks now, you start to get, it's crazy,

01:13:59.980 | there's just so many compromises.

01:14:01.220 | Every little decision you have of like, oh, I did this,

01:14:03.940 | now I, no, well, now, crap, it's gonna do this.

01:14:06.580 | For instance, fuel-rich, if you ran kerosene fuel-rich,

01:14:10.220 | you know how I mentioned soot coming out

01:14:11.620 | of the gas generator?

01:14:13.140 | Well, if you run soot through your engine like that

01:14:18.140 | and had to go through your injectors,

01:14:19.860 | like back into the engine, it'll clog the pores

01:14:22.340 | of the injectors and it'll end up blowing up the engine.

01:14:24.820 | The soot itself is so damaging that you can't really run

01:14:28.700 | a fuel-rich kerosene engine.

01:14:30.540 | - What exactly is soot?

01:14:32.220 | So it's like fuel somehow mixed up with the smoke.

01:14:34.620 | Like what, I wonder what, what is it chemically?

01:14:37.620 | Is it some weird--

01:14:39.180 | - It's mostly just carbon.

01:14:40.900 | It's mostly just carbon-- - That dark smoke.

01:14:42.820 | - Solid chunks of carbon, and it can cake up

01:14:46.300 | and just literally like, you know, like--

01:14:48.860 | - Yeah.

01:14:49.700 | - It's like ash almost, you know?

01:14:51.260 | Like at some point, you know, especially

01:14:53.380 | under those high pressures and high temperatures,

01:14:55.660 | it can physically build up and, you know,

01:14:57.740 | turn into like stalagmites and stalactites of carbon.

01:15:01.380 | Really hard, you know, forged in a rocket engine carbon.

01:15:05.900 | - I wonder how you figure all that out too.

01:15:07.380 | Is that some experimentation?

01:15:08.420 | Some of that is chem, like theoretical,

01:15:10.740 | but like you're gonna have to build the thing at scale

01:15:13.740 | and actually test it.

01:15:14.580 | - And trial and error. - And trial and error.

01:15:16.660 | - There is-- - Many decades

01:15:17.980 | of trial and error.

01:15:18.860 | - And many pieces of engines that you're trying

01:15:21.180 | to piece back together going like,

01:15:22.140 | what the hell happened here?

01:15:23.140 | - Yeah, what happened?

01:15:23.980 | - Yeah.

01:15:24.820 | - Okay, so that's closed cycle.

01:15:27.060 | So how do we get to full flow?

01:15:28.640 | - So in either of those situations,

01:15:30.180 | you're still actually just having the opposite.

01:15:31.940 | So if you're fuel rich, you know,

01:15:33.080 | all the fuel is going through the turbine,

01:15:35.020 | but only a tiny bit of oxygen is actually being put

01:15:38.620 | into that pre-burner to spin the pumps.

01:15:41.340 | And the rest of the oxygen is actually going

01:15:44.100 | through the pump, the primary pump,

01:15:45.700 | and straight into the combustion chamber.

01:15:47.820 | Now, full flow, the idea is you're going

01:15:49.420 | to actually pre-burn both your propellants.

01:15:51.700 | Both your propellants are going to go through a pre-burner,

01:15:54.220 | and they're both going to end up spinning one of the pumps.

01:15:57.660 | So you'll have a gas, a fuel rich pre-burner,

01:16:00.340 | and you're going to have an oxygen rich pre-burner.

01:16:02.620 | Each one of those is going to get just, you know,

01:16:05.940 | they're gonna heat it up just enough

01:16:07.940 | and get it up to just enough pressure

01:16:10.060 | to spin up that turbine as fast as they need to do

01:16:12.220 | to get the pumps up to the right pressure

01:16:14.340 | and still have enough pressure through the turbine

01:16:16.240 | to overcome the pressure inside the main combustion chamber.

01:16:19.060 | And they're both going to arrive,

01:16:20.500 | both your fuel and your oxidizer are going to arrive

01:16:22.740 | in the main combustion chamber as hot gases already.

01:16:25.460 | So what was liquid oxygen is now gaseous oxygen.

01:16:28.440 | What was liquid methane is now gaseous methane.

01:16:31.180 | And they're meeting in this combustion chamber

01:16:33.060 | at still ridiculously high pressures again.

01:16:35.480 | For SpaceX's Raptor engine, they're meeting at 300 bar.

01:16:41.220 | Insane amounts of pressure.

01:16:43.300 | And then they combust from there on,

01:16:45.220 | and because they're already a gas-gas interaction,

01:16:47.820 | they're happy to burn.

01:16:48.900 | They're ready to burn, they're ready to mingle

01:16:51.980 | as opposed to having a gas-liquid interaction,

01:16:53.780 | which is what's a lot more normal.

01:16:55.660 | You know, you'll have two different states of matter

01:16:57.620 | and they just might not,

01:16:58.540 | they might take a little more coaxing to,

01:17:01.080 | what's that word?

01:17:01.920 | - Coaxing?

01:17:02.760 | - Yeah.

01:17:04.140 | - Coaxing?

01:17:04.980 | - Coaxing?

01:17:05.820 | - That doesn't sound like a,

01:17:06.660 | that doesn't sound correct, right?

01:17:07.900 | - Coaxing.

01:17:08.740 | - Coaxing, yeah.

01:17:09.580 | - Yeah?

01:17:10.820 | - All right.

01:17:11.660 | - I don't know.

01:17:12.480 | We'll cut that in post.

01:17:13.320 | (laughing)

01:17:14.160 | - We'll have Morgan Freeman overdub us.

01:17:16.260 | - Yeah, he's just coaxing.

01:17:17.900 | - The fascinating thing is they're coaxed as gases

01:17:23.580 | in the combustion chamber.

01:17:24.420 | - Why can't I think of that word?

01:17:25.420 | But yeah, they just take a little bit more,

01:17:28.320 | it takes more time in the combustion chamber

01:17:30.160 | to have a liquid-gas interaction mixed together

01:17:33.300 | and unleash as much of their energy as he can

01:17:35.780 | before it exits the system.

01:17:37.300 | - Some of the trade-offs here in terms of efficiency,

01:17:39.540 | which is most efficient,

01:17:41.300 | and then also complexity of the design and the engineering,

01:17:44.420 | and the cost of the design and the engineering.

01:17:46.380 | Like what are the different trade-offs

01:17:47.540 | between open cycle, closed cycle, and full flow?

01:17:50.140 | - Yeah, it's a pretty, it's kind of like a,

01:17:52.300 | what's the bears, the Goldilocks, you know?

01:17:56.340 | Like it's like, you kind of generally,

01:17:59.180 | the easiest is open cycle.

01:18:00.900 | 'Cause you know, you're just expelling the exhaust gas,

01:18:04.500 | the gas-generated exhaust.

01:18:05.420 | You're not having to worry about it.

01:18:06.260 | You just spin up that thing as much as you need

01:18:08.740 | and deal with it, right?

01:18:09.980 | No big deal.

01:18:11.460 | Closed cycles offers 10 to 15% greater performance

01:18:15.060 | generally because you're not wasting that propellant.

01:18:18.540 | And, but it's complicated.

01:18:20.380 | It's a lot more complicated,

01:18:21.220 | especially if you're doing oxygen-rich.

01:18:22.460 | Now you're having hot, gaseous oxygen in your engine,

01:18:27.020 | which just generally wants to react with everything.

01:18:29.420 | It's just a recipe, like hot oxygen is just a recipe

01:18:33.140 | for things to catch on fire that shouldn't be on fire.

01:18:36.580 | So metals, you know, under those conditions,

01:18:39.620 | lots of times will just spontaneously start burning.

01:18:42.660 | You know, you'll actually turn your metal

01:18:44.260 | and it will now become fuel.

01:18:45.860 | You'll be engine-rich before you know it

01:18:47.540 | because your hot oxygen is eating

01:18:51.340 | and using that engine as fuel, basically.

01:18:52.900 | So oxygen-rich is generally very hard,

01:18:56.260 | but that is what the Soviet Union ended up doing

01:18:58.180 | with almost their entire line of engines

01:19:00.140 | was closed cycle oxygen-rich.

01:19:02.700 | But you know, so those two are kind of generally hard,

01:19:05.460 | but offer great performance benefits over open cycle.

01:19:08.740 | But at the end of the day, you know,

01:19:09.620 | full flow is by far the ultimate of all of them.

01:19:13.100 | It's the most difficult,

01:19:14.740 | but it also has the most potential to be the most efficient.

01:19:17.700 | - Starship, the Raptor 2,

01:19:19.340 | why is that engine using full flow?

01:19:21.100 | - Because it's the best.

01:19:22.860 | I mean, it's just physics-wise,

01:19:24.760 | if you're trying to extract as much energy

01:19:26.460 | out of your propellants,

01:19:27.420 | there just isn't another cycle type that is better than it.

01:19:31.580 | But of course, it's very, very hard to develop.

01:19:33.980 | You know, so far to date, the RD-270 in the '60s was built.

01:19:38.340 | There is a powerhead demonstrator built in the United States

01:19:40.500 | in the '90s and early 2000s, I think,

01:19:42.820 | maybe just the early 2000s.

01:19:44.180 | That was just the power,

01:19:46.820 | just the pumps and the turbines and the pre-burners,

01:19:49.700 | no chamber, no nothing.

01:19:51.220 | That was a big deal.

01:19:52.380 | Only the United States took, you know,

01:19:53.700 | millions of dollars to just develop that.

01:19:55.860 | And then there's SpaceX's Raptor engine.

01:19:57.660 | - So you talked about the combustion chamber

01:19:59.660 | and how damn hot things get.

01:20:02.260 | High pressure, a lot of heat.

01:20:05.980 | How do you keep the thing cool?

01:20:07.220 | You have a great video on this too.

01:20:09.460 | How do you get it from, what do you call it,

01:20:13.380 | metal-rich, engine-rich,

01:20:16.860 | engine-rich from like the metal from melting?

01:20:20.580 | - Well, one of the ways is to let it be engine-rich.

01:20:22.940 | There's actually, you can use ablative cooling.

01:20:24.740 | You can literally make the walls thicker

01:20:26.980 | than you normally make it,

01:20:27.820 | make it out of a material that will ablate away,

01:20:29.480 | that will kind of chip away

01:20:30.380 | and take some of the heat away with it.

01:20:32.140 | It's very, again, primitive.

01:20:33.700 | And it's actually what SpaceX first used

01:20:35.540 | on their first Merlin engines.

01:20:37.140 | They used ablative cooling.

01:20:39.220 | So it's basically a carbon nozzle

01:20:40.980 | and you just let it get,

01:20:42.820 | the inner layer of the engine was carbon

01:20:45.900 | and you just let it get chewed away and eaten away.

01:20:48.820 | And that's just something you factor in.

01:20:51.580 | It's not very elegant

01:20:54.460 | and it's definitely not reusable in that sense.

01:20:57.300 | - So there's probably really good models

01:20:59.460 | about how it melts away,

01:21:01.420 | the rate at which it melts away to know what thickness.

01:21:04.700 | - Yeah.

01:21:05.540 | - But boy, is it dangerous.

01:21:06.540 | - I just mean, it seems so silly.

01:21:09.860 | So obviously you probably,

01:21:12.580 | again, it's not the most elegant.

01:21:13.700 | And the problem too,

01:21:14.540 | your geometry physically is changing too

01:21:16.420 | 'cause as you're eroding the walls,

01:21:18.260 | now things like your expansion ratio

01:21:19.980 | or the ratio between your throat

01:21:21.300 | and the nozzle exit is changing

01:21:23.260 | because the thickness,

01:21:24.380 | like the throat's diameter is actually,

01:21:26.020 | like everything's changing.

01:21:27.000 | So it's not great.

01:21:28.940 | - It might not be melting away uniformly.

01:21:31.300 | There could be some like weird pockets for aerodynamics

01:21:33.620 | that there's just a bunch of chaos

01:21:35.740 | just can--

01:21:36.580 | - I can't imagine having to like

01:21:39.060 | figure all that stuff out, honestly.

01:21:40.620 | - Yeah.

01:21:41.980 | - So the more elegant thing to do,

01:21:44.620 | there's a couple other things you can do,

01:21:46.160 | but kind of the most common one,

01:21:47.540 | especially when we're dealing with liquid-fueled rockets

01:21:49.940 | is something called regeneratively cooling.

01:21:52.180 | And the idea is you basically just flow fuel

01:21:54.820 | or fuel or oxidizer through the walls

01:21:57.380 | of the nozzle and the chamber

01:22:00.220 | before they go through,

01:22:01.820 | like into the injector

01:22:02.860 | or into the actual combustion chamber.

01:22:05.300 | By doing that, you're taking heat out of the,

01:22:08.620 | you know, you're taking heat out of the metal of the walls

01:22:11.260 | and you're putting it into the propellant.

01:22:12.500 | So you're typically heating the propellant up,

01:22:14.220 | which is, remember when I said there's gas interaction

01:22:16.540 | versus a liquid, like liquid gas,

01:22:18.540 | lots of times, even if you pump them both at,

01:22:20.980 | you know, as they, you know,

01:22:23.220 | are both being pumped as liquids,

01:22:25.020 | by the time it goes through the walls of the chamber,

01:22:26.700 | lots of times one of them is phase-changed into a gas.

01:22:29.460 | So now you do have that gas-liquid interaction.

01:22:32.140 | That's because they're using that,

01:22:33.480 | the fuel or the oxidizer to cool the walls of the engine.

01:22:37.220 | So when you look at a rocket engine,

01:22:38.260 | although it looks like, you know,

01:22:39.280 | a nice, beautifully uniform cylinder,

01:22:42.380 | you know, smooth thing,

01:22:44.180 | there's either, there's oftentimes like channels

01:22:47.780 | actually like milled into the walls

01:22:49.900 | that they run fuel through.

01:22:50.780 | And even though they're tight, you know,

01:22:51.780 | they can be like two, three millimeters thick,

01:22:54.020 | they'll actually still have a channel

01:22:55.100 | that goes down and U-turns and comes around and comes back

01:22:58.180 | all the way down to the tip of the nozzle and everything.

01:23:00.200 | So it's just insane that, you know, that--

01:23:02.180 | - Isn't that pre-designed and that's like,

01:23:06.120 | so they design those channels.

01:23:07.560 | - Yeah.

01:23:08.400 | - There's probably some optimization there,

01:23:10.160 | like how the flow happens.

01:23:11.640 | - Well, especially 'cause you're thinking

01:23:12.880 | about a conical thing or like a semi-conical thing

01:23:15.440 | where the area's getting smaller and smaller and smaller,

01:23:18.320 | you're flowing the same amount of propellant through it

01:23:21.240 | as you are down, you know what I mean?

01:23:22.440 | Like the propellant has to,

01:23:23.880 | so they have all these unique things like, you know,

01:23:25.440 | sometimes different manifolds where they'll inject more

01:23:29.440 | or less fuel in certain areas and--

01:23:31.400 | - There must be like propellant simulation software

01:23:34.600 | 'cause they can't, surely can't like test this

01:23:37.800 | on actual physical--

01:23:39.960 | - Well, back in the day, they had to just build it.

01:23:42.080 | - Well, you mean back in the day,

01:23:44.880 | walked uphill in both ways.

01:23:47.240 | (Luke laughs)

01:23:48.080 | It was like, I mean, like anything back in the day

01:23:51.800 | before computers where you like had--

01:23:54.800 | - Like, you just had to do it.

01:23:57.600 | - And like your simulation or modeling

01:23:59.600 | was like a sheet of paper where you're like calculating

01:24:01.680 | stuff, loosely estimating.

01:24:04.160 | - Heat flux, you know, like you can literally see

01:24:06.240 | how much energy and how much heat is inside

01:24:08.480 | the combustion chamber, how much, you know,

01:24:10.640 | and that is a measurable thing even without a computer.

01:24:13.200 | Now, I'm not near smart enough to do any of this.

01:24:14.800 | Like I've never tried measuring the heat flux of anything.

01:24:17.840 | I barely even know what that means.

01:24:18.920 | I'm just smart enough to regurgitate it.

01:24:19.760 | - You haven't lived, my friend.

01:24:21.840 | And you haven't lived.

01:24:24.080 | - But that is something that people would calculate

01:24:25.920 | and they find out, okay, copper, you know,

01:24:27.720 | does a better job of transferring the heat

01:24:30.160 | between the walls of it and into the propellant,

01:24:31.760 | blah, blah, blah, blah, compared to XYZ.

01:24:33.920 | So, you know--

01:24:36.440 | - Yeah, materials, people.

01:24:37.800 | Like I've met just in all walks of life,

01:24:41.080 | especially just through MIT, through everywhere,

01:24:43.960 | where some people are just like 100x smarter

01:24:48.960 | than anyone you've ever met at a particular thing.

01:24:53.840 | Like you mentioned copper.

01:24:54.840 | They'll know the heat dissipation

01:24:57.360 | through different materials.

01:24:58.360 | They'll understand that like more than,

01:25:00.480 | it's like holy shit, it's possible for a human being

01:25:03.320 | to deeply understand a thing.

01:25:05.000 | - Dude, aerospace is full of that.

01:25:07.240 | You'll have people that are so niche in something

01:25:11.680 | that no, like the average person

01:25:13.560 | has never even remotely thought of,

01:25:15.120 | yet this person has done it 40,000 different ways

01:25:18.240 | in an environment being like, well,

01:25:20.800 | we found out that if we turn it four degrees that way

01:25:23.560 | and add 4% niobium, you know,

01:25:25.720 | like just things you're like, what is your life

01:25:29.520 | and how do you know this, you know?

01:25:30.360 | - And the funny thing about them,

01:25:32.040 | they usually don't think it's a big deal.

01:25:34.920 | - Yeah, yeah.

01:25:35.760 | - They're usually like, they're so nonchalant about it

01:25:37.840 | that if you don't actually, you have to know enough.

01:25:42.040 | You actually have to know quite a lot

01:25:43.400 | to appreciate how much more they know.

01:25:46.840 | - Yeah.

01:25:47.680 | - 'Cause otherwise you won't even notice it.

01:25:48.920 | 'Cause our popular culture doesn't celebrate

01:25:51.800 | the intricacies of scientific or engineering mastery,

01:25:56.480 | which is interesting.

01:25:57.320 | There's all these people that lurk in the shadows.

01:25:59.480 | - Oh, I know.

01:26:00.320 | - They're just geniuses.

01:26:01.140 | - Yes.

01:26:01.980 | - Like you see, you'll have like the LeBrons

01:26:03.720 | who are like good at basketball,

01:26:04.800 | so we understand that they're good at basketball.

01:26:06.920 | They do this thing with the ball and the hoop

01:26:08.800 | and they do like it really well,

01:26:10.360 | better than a lot of other people under pressure.

01:26:12.320 | Like we celebrate and give them--

01:26:13.160 | - It's a big public spectacle.

01:26:14.720 | - Yeah.

01:26:15.560 | - Look how great they are, yeah.

01:26:16.380 | - But like the people like, yeah,

01:26:18.600 | these aerospace companies and NASA, SpaceX,

01:26:21.960 | the kind of stuff they're doing,

01:26:23.220 | just the, I mean, there's geniuses there.

01:26:25.880 | And it's actually really inspiring.

01:26:26.880 | I mean, I've interacted with a lot of brilliant people

01:26:30.360 | in the software world.

01:26:31.560 | And maybe because I don't deeply understand

01:26:34.760 | a lot of hardware stuff, materials engineering,

01:26:37.440 | mechanical engineering,

01:26:38.840 | those people seem like so much smarter.

01:26:41.400 | I mean, it's always like the grass is green

01:26:42.960 | or whatever the expression is.

01:26:44.520 | But there's a depth of understanding

01:26:47.560 | that engineers have that do like mechanical engineering

01:26:51.080 | that's just awe-inspiring to me.

01:26:54.280 | - Not to get too like,

01:26:55.520 | I don't know what the word would be,

01:26:58.080 | introvertive or something or whatever,

01:26:59.460 | but that's actually kind of the whole point

01:27:00.840 | of Everyday Astronaut.

01:27:02.240 | Like that's almost the whole point of what I do.

01:27:04.380 | Each year from the beginning,

01:27:06.120 | I did a thing called the Astro Awards,

01:27:08.180 | trying to be like an award show,

01:27:10.240 | hoping to lift up and celebrate and shine a spotlight

01:27:13.740 | on the people that are actually doing the hard work

01:27:15.600 | and try to treat them like the rock stars that they are,

01:27:17.960 | that we don't know about.

01:27:19.480 | And I think that's one of the things that for sure,

01:27:20.960 | I think Elon definitely helped make space flight cool,

01:27:25.640 | helped make that like a celebration thing

01:27:28.000 | where people are physically out cheering for rockets

01:27:31.040 | and science and space exploration.

01:27:33.700 | But I think that's just the beginning.

01:27:34.960 | I think like this should be a thing

01:27:36.680 | where the general public looks to these people

01:27:40.120 | as the coolest ones, as the coolest places to work,

01:27:43.040 | as the most important things.

01:27:45.040 | Sports are great and everything.

01:27:46.000 | I'm a big Formula One fan and things like that.

01:27:47.920 | But at the same time,

01:27:50.040 | like we should be celebrating the people

01:27:52.840 | doing this crazy work, clocking in countless hours,

01:27:56.000 | just trying to figure out this one little thing

01:27:57.400 | that's gonna help us further our understanding.

01:27:59.300 | - I mean, what's cooler than a giant thing

01:28:02.360 | with a really hot fire that goes boom

01:28:07.000 | and goes up into the air.

01:28:08.480 | I mean, like there's no, it's like,

01:28:11.480 | to me like bridges are inspiring.

01:28:13.120 | It's like incredible architecture design

01:28:15.600 | and like the humans are able to work against nature,

01:28:20.200 | build these gigantic metal things,

01:28:21.920 | but like rockets with like a tiny little humans

01:28:26.160 | on top of them flying out into space.

01:28:28.600 | It's the coolest possible thing.

01:28:31.320 | Everything comes together.

01:28:32.280 | All the different disciplines come together

01:28:34.300 | for the high stakes drama of riding

01:28:38.640 | that super powerful thing up away

01:28:41.800 | from the thing we call home, Earth.

01:28:43.520 | It's like, it's so amazing.

01:28:44.920 | - Exactly. - So freaking amazing.

01:28:46.360 | - Well, I think that's kind of part of my story arc

01:28:48.960 | is I just used to be a huge car and motorcycle guy.

01:28:52.000 | Like I just loved things that go fast

01:28:54.880 | and are loud and go fast and make lots of power.

01:28:58.920 | And at the end of the day, like at some point you realize

01:29:01.680 | nothing goes faster and it's louder

01:29:03.120 | and makes more power than a rocket.

01:29:04.760 | I think that's kind of where I eventually just ended up,

01:29:08.600 | wound up there just because there is nothing cooler than that

01:29:11.320 | - Yeah, that's the ultimate level of reach as a car guy

01:29:13.560 | is to become a rocket guy.

01:29:14.800 | - Yeah, a hundred percent.

01:29:16.240 | And at some point, some car guys literally become rocket guys

01:29:18.520 | and strap rockets to cars

01:29:19.560 | and try and break land speed records.

01:29:21.000 | You know, like it's the same universe here.

01:29:24.520 | Yeah.

01:29:25.560 | - So Elon, with your conversation with him on the Raptor 2,

01:29:29.640 | was talking about, you were talking about

01:29:32.200 | like there's an excessive amount of cooling

01:29:34.640 | to be on the safe side as you're developing the engine.

01:29:37.160 | What kind of cooling was that?

01:29:38.520 | - So that would be film cooling.

01:29:40.000 | So remember how a little bit ago we were talking about

01:29:42.120 | like keeping the turbine from melting,

01:29:43.800 | you can just run it off of like off nominal, basically off,

01:29:47.640 | you know, typically fuel rich,

01:29:49.200 | just run more fuel through that.

01:29:50.600 | So it's cool enough.

01:29:51.920 | You can actually do that locally kind of in your engine

01:29:54.240 | so that you can keep it.

01:29:55.200 | So, you know, imagine a combustion chamber

01:29:57.880 | and the top of it's just a flat, like imagine a shower head.

01:30:01.400 | And then you have like, you know,

01:30:02.480 | the combustion chamber attached to it.

01:30:04.440 | The outer perimeter there,

01:30:05.800 | the part where the flame front would be touching the walls,

01:30:08.280 | you can actually have just more fuel injectors.

01:30:10.880 | So you're injecting locally a more fuel rich zone

01:30:14.880 | along the entire nozzle.

01:30:16.880 | And that would be called film cooling.

01:30:18.640 | So it's less efficient though.

01:30:20.400 | Again, you're kind of wasting fuel.

01:30:21.880 | There's fuel that's running, you know,

01:30:23.760 | and your mixture ratio is off,

01:30:26.080 | but only for a little portion of your, the big picture,

01:30:28.840 | you know, so that's one of those compromises.

01:30:30.560 | Like you can do additional film cooling

01:30:32.920 | to make sure you're not melting your engine, you know,

01:30:35.480 | but at the cost of performance usually.

01:30:38.400 | But you can also be smart and use film cooling.

01:30:40.600 | You know, there's fun little clever tricks.

01:30:42.960 | For instance, you'll notice on the F1 engine

01:30:45.960 | that was on the Saturn V, you know,

01:30:47.960 | the biggest rocket that had been built to date

01:30:51.080 | prior now to Starship,

01:30:52.680 | the F1 has this huge, huge, huge engines.

01:30:56.720 | There's five of them on the Saturn V.

01:30:59.000 | And you'll notice that like the gas generator

01:31:02.320 | has a pipe that comes down

01:31:04.320 | and then it actually splits off in a manifold

01:31:06.400 | and wraps around part of the nozzle.

01:31:09.240 | And that manifold takes the hot gas from the turbine,

01:31:14.240 | which is actually, I mean, it's not hot.

01:31:16.600 | It's actually cold gas compared to the combustion chamber,

01:31:19.160 | but it's, you know, in human terms,

01:31:20.560 | it's still, you wouldn't want to put your hand in it,

01:31:22.160 | you know, not live.

01:31:23.320 | And it actually pipes that gas into the nozzle

01:31:27.920 | so that it creates a film cooling,

01:31:30.040 | an actual boundary layer of cooler gas

01:31:33.560 | against the hotter combustion chamber gas.

01:31:35.920 | So basically repurposing that gas that was normally wasted

01:31:39.280 | and they pump it back into the engine

01:31:41.280 | and then into the nozzle, like kind of further down.

01:31:43.960 | So the trick there is it has to be far enough down

01:31:46.800 | that the pressure in the nozzle,

01:31:48.960 | because remember as the nozzle gets bigger

01:31:50.160 | and bigger and bigger,

01:31:51.000 | the pressure's getting lower and lower

01:31:52.320 | and the temperature's getting lower and lower.

01:31:53.840 | So you have to find this trade-off point

01:31:55.320 | where the pressure is lower than that gas from the turbine

01:32:00.320 | and then you pump it in and it's cooler

01:32:03.600 | than the gas still is in the nozzle

01:32:06.040 | and it can help not melt your nozzle.

01:32:07.880 | So you'll notice that the F1 is actually a good example

01:32:10.160 | of regen cooling.

01:32:11.080 | So the chamber walls,

01:32:12.560 | you can physically see the pipes actually on the F1

01:32:15.560 | 'cause it's so big and they just literally used pipes

01:32:17.760 | and bent them and you can see the coolant channels

01:32:20.800 | all the way up and down the engine

01:32:22.120 | until you get to that manifold.

01:32:24.000 | Then from there on,

01:32:25.000 | it just has what's called a nozzle extension

01:32:27.080 | and it keeps going and going and going

01:32:29.240 | and that section of nozzle is cooled

01:32:30.960 | by the film cooling of the gas generator.

01:32:34.040 | - They mean the aerodynamics of cooler gas

01:32:37.920 | and the hot gas,

01:32:39.480 | 'cause you have to have this kind of layer, right?

01:32:43.480 | To protect the layer of cool,

01:32:45.360 | like understanding that obviously probably has to do,

01:32:48.360 | in modern times,

01:32:49.240 | there's probably really good simulation of aerodynamics.

01:32:51.840 | But, and to do it in terms of pressure too,

01:32:54.360 | like to make sure it's in the right place

01:32:57.760 | that doesn't go back up.

01:32:59.240 | - Go backwards, exactly.

01:33:00.240 | If they have that manifold even six inches too high

01:33:03.600 | on that nozzle, yeah, it's just gonna go upwards.

01:33:07.520 | Pressure always wants to flow from high to low.

01:33:09.120 | - The number of options you have here

01:33:11.000 | that result in it going boom is very large.

01:33:15.400 | - Near infinity, yeah.

01:33:16.800 | - Especially 'cause, I mean,

01:33:17.720 | you can't do like a small model of it.

01:33:20.120 | Maybe you can, no, you can't.

01:33:21.960 | - It doesn't really scale very well.

01:33:23.320 | - No, you have to do the full testing

01:33:25.680 | and that's why you have all the kind of,

01:33:27.680 | that's why you have with Starship all the tests that,

01:33:31.760 | you know, you think,

01:33:33.440 | why would you need to do so many static fires

01:33:35.960 | and so many tests?

01:33:36.800 | Why is it failing so many times?

01:33:38.240 | Can't you get it right?

01:33:39.680 | But like, it's very tough to get it right.

01:33:41.880 | - Well, and when you're pushing the boundaries,

01:33:44.200 | you want to know where and how it's going to fail.

01:33:46.800 | - That's right.

01:33:47.640 | - So you can engineer around them.

01:33:48.480 | So that's a luxury that SpaceX does have

01:33:51.000 | with the scale of Raptor.

01:33:52.000 | You know, they're building Raptor cheaper

01:33:53.160 | than probably almost any other engine,

01:33:55.040 | you know, maybe besides some of their own,

01:33:56.400 | at least at that scale.

01:33:58.240 | Then before they're testing, you know,

01:33:59.760 | I think since last March or last April,

01:34:03.160 | they've tested a thousand Raptor,

01:34:05.360 | you know, a thousand engine fires, I guess,

01:34:07.600 | not just Raptors, but, you know,

01:34:09.680 | that's just an insane amount of data

01:34:11.960 | and an insane amount of edge cases to learn,

01:34:13.800 | oh my God, we found out that we were actually

01:34:15.640 | slightly over spinning our turbine at this degree

01:34:17.640 | and this frequency is harmonic at this blah, blah, blah,

01:34:20.640 | and all of a sudden realize it's rattling and, you know,

01:34:22.400 | it did this and then you can engineer around that.

01:34:24.600 | You know, it's like, ultimately, you know,

01:34:28.760 | I think Elon said something like,

01:34:30.640 | high production rate solves many ills

01:34:33.480 | or something along those lines.

01:34:35.080 | And it's just true, if you have an insane amount of engines

01:34:37.640 | and an insane amount of data

01:34:38.880 | and an insane amount of failures to learn from,

01:34:41.660 | you just know your system inside and out,

01:34:43.360 | you know those margins,

01:34:44.520 | you know where the failure points are,

01:34:46.320 | you know how to engineer around them.

01:34:48.320 | - That's how I approach dating.

01:34:49.800 | No, I'm just kidding.

01:34:50.640 | (laughing)

01:34:52.520 | 'Cause we're talking about engines.

01:34:54.700 | So most rockets, I think all rockets

01:34:57.420 | have multiple stages today.

01:35:00.000 | Maybe they'll take us in a discussion

01:35:01.300 | of what ideas that could be for single stage

01:35:03.640 | to orbit rockets, but can you describe this whole thing

01:35:06.360 | that you've been mentioning here and there

01:35:07.600 | of multiple stages of a rocket?

01:35:10.060 | - Yeah, no, that's a good question.

01:35:11.200 | So ultimately, you know, like I said,

01:35:13.920 | you're kind of pushing about 90%.

01:35:15.960 | The rocket's like basically just fuel with some skin on it,

01:35:18.360 | you know what I mean?

01:35:19.880 | And so that skin weighs a lot of,

01:35:22.960 | you know, skin in the engines do weigh a lot.

01:35:25.720 | You know, like I said, the Falcon 9 on its own

01:35:27.360 | is about 20 tons, just the booster is about 20 metric tons.

01:35:31.380 | So it's not an insignificant amount of weight.

01:35:33.880 | So the idea is, with staging,

01:35:36.200 | is you ditch anything you don't need, more or less.

01:35:38.880 | So, you know, Falcon 9's a perfect rocket

01:35:42.100 | to think about this because you have an upper stage

01:35:44.920 | and you have a booster, you know, our first stage.

01:35:47.320 | And the first stage burns through all of its fuel.

01:35:49.960 | Once it's out of fuel, you let go of the second stage

01:35:52.240 | and ta-da, you actually just basically started

01:35:54.480 | and lit a brand new, fresh rocket.

01:35:57.360 | You know, and this brand new, fresh rocket

01:35:58.760 | now doesn't have all that 20 tons attached to it.

01:36:01.800 | So it's a lot lighter.

01:36:02.700 | It doesn't need, you know, as nearly as many engines

01:36:05.080 | to push it around.

01:36:05.920 | It needs just one instead of nine.

01:36:07.860 | Its engine can be optimized for the vacuum of space

01:36:11.300 | as opposed to having to operate at sea level

01:36:13.560 | with all of our, actually pretty thick atmosphere,

01:36:16.320 | you know, relatively.

01:36:17.720 | So staging is basically the idea

01:36:21.360 | that you get rid of things you don't need.

01:36:23.320 | On Earth, again, kind of that whole like 10%,

01:36:26.160 | harder, 10% easier.

01:36:27.620 | If it was 10% easier, single stage orbit

01:36:29.600 | would be no big deal.

01:36:30.640 | And it probably would have been like the way

01:36:33.360 | to get to orbit by choice,

01:36:34.720 | just because like, it's not that hard.

01:36:37.360 | But with our Earth as it is, with physics as it is,

01:36:41.360 | it's just, it's doable.

01:36:43.960 | And we've had, and you know, we almost kind of,

01:36:46.920 | actually the first orbit to take humans,

01:36:49.040 | or the first rocket to take humans into orbit

01:36:51.040 | from the United States, which was the Atlas rocket,

01:36:56.040 | was kind of a stage and a half.

01:36:58.680 | It actually only had like one big fuel tank.

01:37:01.120 | And what that is, they actually dropped off

01:37:02.600 | two of its three engines.

01:37:04.320 | So it just ditched some of the engines.

01:37:05.760 | But if it hadn't done that, you know,

01:37:07.020 | so kind of people were like, well, that was single stage.

01:37:09.160 | It's like, it still had a staging event.

01:37:10.600 | It still had to ditch mass

01:37:11.760 | in order to even make it into orbit.

01:37:12.920 | Had it not done that,

01:37:14.240 | it would have not been able to get into orbit.

01:37:16.480 | So you pretty quickly look at your trade and say,

01:37:19.000 | okay, well, if I wanna stick to single stage for orbit,

01:37:22.160 | my payload mass becomes tiny.

01:37:24.720 | You know, like you might be able to put like,

01:37:26.840 | you know, a Falcon 9 booster on its own.

01:37:28.560 | Like if you just flew one of the side core boosters

01:37:30.440 | of a Falcon Heavy with a nose cone on and everything,

01:37:33.120 | just say, I'm just gonna fly this on its own.

01:37:35.560 | You might be able to put like, you know,

01:37:39.200 | 10 kilograms into space or something, you know,

01:37:41.320 | a very small amount.

01:37:42.840 | Well, throw a second stage on that thing

01:37:44.200 | and now you can put, you know,

01:37:46.320 | 17,000 kilograms into space.

01:37:49.200 | So it's just an order, you know,

01:37:50.720 | orders of magnitude more payload capacity

01:37:53.960 | because you did staging,

01:37:54.960 | because you ditched the residual weight.

01:37:56.880 | So the other thing that's hard about that too

01:38:01.880 | is that the engines, again, that operate at sea level

01:38:06.040 | are often not great in space and vice versa.

01:38:08.760 | Like you physically can't,

01:38:10.920 | most optimized for space engines,

01:38:12.920 | you can't even operate at sea level.

01:38:14.720 | They'll destroy themselves

01:38:16.160 | due to something called flow separation.

01:38:18.240 | So not only are you getting the benefit

01:38:20.800 | of ditching all the weight,

01:38:21.760 | but you're also able to use a much more efficient

01:38:24.080 | and less, typically, you know,

01:38:25.360 | much less powerful engine in space.

01:38:27.200 | - So you mentioned on the multistage rockets

01:38:31.640 | that maybe the dream would be,

01:38:35.280 | if we weren't living on Earth,

01:38:37.000 | but maybe we can on Earth,

01:38:39.000 | to have a single stage to orbit rocket

01:38:41.680 | where it's all one package reusable.

01:38:44.640 | - Reusable gets even harder.

01:38:46.960 | - It gets even harder.

01:38:47.880 | So first of all, what is, just to linger on it,

01:38:51.120 | what is the single stage to orbit rocket?

01:38:53.920 | And why is it so hard to achieve on Earth?

01:38:56.440 | You already kind of explained it a little bit,

01:38:58.480 | but just, if we were to say like,

01:39:00.240 | that's your assignment.

01:39:01.880 | - Yeah.

01:39:02.720 | - Tim, you're supposed to get together with Elon

01:39:04.800 | and other brilliant people,

01:39:06.600 | and like, you have to do this.

01:39:08.320 | - Yeah.

01:39:09.400 | - Why is it so hard?

01:39:10.680 | - Why is it so hard?

01:39:11.920 | The payload fraction of a rocket is like three to five

01:39:19.280 | or six or 7% would be like, you know,

01:39:22.040 | that's the amount of payload

01:39:23.480 | compared to the total mass of the rocket.

01:39:24.880 | Like, you're lucky to get into beyond 5%.

01:39:28.480 | So if you're now having to deal with the weight

01:39:30.600 | of the rocket by the time you're in orbit,

01:39:32.520 | like, your payload fraction,

01:39:35.080 | you're talking about like margins,

01:39:36.960 | that's such, it's so small amount of leftover

01:39:41.640 | if you had to take all of it with you.

01:39:43.880 | So the sooner you can ditch weight, the better.

01:39:45.880 | The sooner you can ditch weight, the better.

01:39:47.120 | The sooner you can, you know,

01:39:48.240 | and that's what you're doing,

01:39:49.120 | a rocket the whole time is actually ditching weight.

01:39:51.760 | All of that fuel, all that big giant flame you see

01:39:54.680 | is literally mass being thrown out the back of the rocket.

01:39:57.560 | But what typically isn't expended, you know,

01:39:59.320 | at least during nominal operations,

01:40:01.280 | you're not seeing the engines being, you know,

01:40:02.960 | expelled out the thing until you get to staging, of course.

01:40:05.760 | And that's where, you know,

01:40:06.760 | you're ditching all that dead weight.

01:40:08.360 | So single stage to orbit,

01:40:10.240 | your margins just become so small that it's border,

01:40:14.000 | it's not impossible, but it's just,

01:40:16.480 | at the end of the day, like almost no matter who you are,

01:40:18.280 | you end up saying it's just simply not worth it.

01:40:20.320 | Like, it'd be, if you have two rockets

01:40:22.560 | that are using the same amount of propellant,

01:40:24.560 | you know, they're the same physical sizes,

01:40:26.080 | and one of them is cutting, you know,

01:40:27.880 | on a third and has another little engine,

01:40:30.080 | it'll have a hundred or a thousand times

01:40:32.080 | more payload capacity

01:40:33.360 | than the one sitting right next to it.

01:40:35.400 | And now, so there's tricks you can do

01:40:37.000 | to like try to offset that,

01:40:38.240 | things like aerospike engines,

01:40:39.760 | which operate as efficiently at sea level,

01:40:43.760 | at kind of optimized efficiency at sea level.

01:40:46.240 | And just by their, by the way,

01:40:48.560 | their design, the physics of them,

01:40:49.840 | they're also efficient in a vacuum too.

01:40:52.060 | You can do things like that.

01:40:55.200 | And at the end of the day, though,

01:40:56.720 | you just end up with a worse rocket

01:40:58.500 | than if you had just done stage,

01:40:59.920 | like no matter what.

01:41:00.760 | And people say like,

01:41:01.600 | "Well, what if you develop the new technologies?"

01:41:03.160 | Like, okay, apply that technology

01:41:04.500 | to a multi-stage rocket,

01:41:05.780 | and it's gonna do better, you know,

01:41:07.880 | like no matter where you end up,

01:41:09.920 | it's just always better to ditch that weight, you know?

01:41:12.000 | - Is there a cost to having multi-stage?

01:41:14.520 | 'Cause you can still reuse the different stages?

01:41:16.760 | - That's the dream is, you know,

01:41:18.280 | it becomes easier to reuse multiple stages

01:41:21.080 | because now, you know,

01:41:21.920 | like the booster doesn't have to survive

01:41:24.000 | orbital re-entry temperatures and extreme environments.

01:41:27.920 | And you only have to, you know,

01:41:29.320 | make survivable the upper stage.

01:41:30.720 | So you only have to put a big heat shield.

01:41:31.960 | I mean, Starship's the perfect thing in this.

01:41:34.720 | The upper stage has a big giant heat shield.

01:41:36.640 | The booster doesn't need it

01:41:37.600 | 'cause the booster's not going to orbit.

01:41:39.400 | It's only going a fifth or a quarter of orbital velocity.

01:41:42.880 | So it's heat that it experiences is survivable

01:41:45.760 | just by the stainless steel.

01:41:46.820 | You don't need an additional heat shield.

01:41:49.060 | So all of a sudden, if you're trying to reuse,

01:41:52.040 | pretend that you just welded

01:41:53.280 | the two stages of Starship together,

01:41:54.560 | remove those engines on Starship.

01:41:56.400 | That whole vehicle, if you're trying to reuse it,

01:41:57.880 | the whole vehicle now has to have

01:41:59.760 | a heat shield on one side of it.

01:42:01.440 | The whole thing has to have these big, heavy wings.

01:42:03.960 | By the time you come down to it,

01:42:04.800 | there's probably just zero payload capacity.

01:42:07.560 | You basically put your fuel tank in space, you know?

01:42:09.680 | Good job.

01:42:10.520 | - So the dream of a single stage to orbit a rocket,

01:42:14.600 | is that just even the wrong dream on Earth?

01:42:18.960 | - That's what most convention tells you.

01:42:21.520 | You know, by the time, if your goal is cheap,

01:42:25.280 | then you're going to spend,

01:42:26.800 | you're going to have a physically larger rocket

01:42:28.640 | that has more engines, that has more propellant,

01:42:31.480 | blah, blah, blah, to put the same amount of mass into orbit

01:42:34.440 | compared to something else.

01:42:35.320 | You know, we're talking like Rocket Lab's Electron,

01:42:37.400 | a really small rocket.

01:42:38.920 | It's like, I think 1.3 meters wide

01:42:41.280 | and something like, you know, 18 meters tall or something.

01:42:43.800 | It's a small rocket.

01:42:46.040 | If you were to, you know,

01:42:47.680 | and it can put something like 300 or so kilograms into orbit.

01:42:51.820 | You could either launch something that size,

01:42:54.520 | or again, like a full, like big old Falcon 9 booster,

01:42:59.120 | the huge, huge thing.

01:43:00.920 | And that would be lucky to put 300 kilograms into orbit.

01:43:03.960 | You know, so it's like,

01:43:04.800 | which one's going to be cheaper to build, you know,

01:43:07.040 | ship around all the stuff.

01:43:08.880 | And then you also look at, you have fixed costs.

01:43:10.560 | Like the idea of flying a,

01:43:13.600 | but this, again,

01:43:15.080 | everything in rocket science is a compromise.

01:43:16.520 | 'Cause now you have things like people on console time,

01:43:19.600 | all the people that are, you know,

01:43:21.060 | on comms and working on the rocket,

01:43:23.120 | going down to the pad, you know, filing paperwork,

01:43:25.680 | doing range control,

01:43:26.680 | making sure there's not planes and boats in the way,

01:43:29.440 | flight termination.

01:43:30.520 | You have all these fixed costs for any launch.

01:43:32.680 | I don't care how big the rocket is.

01:43:34.380 | There's a relatively fixed cost.

01:43:36.840 | So now you say like, okay, I'm going to be paying,

01:43:39.280 | well, let's just make a winner.

01:43:40.160 | I'm going to pay $5 million to fly a rocket

01:43:43.440 | between all the people going on site,

01:43:45.320 | all the propellant, all the licenses, blah, blah, blah.

01:43:48.520 | If your fixed cost is $5 million,

01:43:50.320 | you can put 300 kilograms in space

01:43:52.160 | versus you have a $5 million cost of operation

01:43:55.520 | and you can put 5,000 kilograms into space.

01:43:58.060 | Like it's,

01:43:59.600 | the business case is going to send you

01:44:01.920 | in one direction pretty quickly.

01:44:03.640 | - So you mentioned aerospike engines.

01:44:06.280 | I think the internet informed me of your love affair

01:44:10.680 | with aerospike engines.

01:44:12.160 | Find somebody that looks at you

01:44:14.720 | the way Tim Nott looks at aerospike engines.

01:44:17.080 | (laughing)

01:44:20.400 | Can you explain what these are?

01:44:23.560 | How do they work?

01:44:25.200 | What's beautiful to them?

01:44:26.400 | How practical are they?

01:44:27.360 | Why don't we use them?

01:44:29.400 | Does it just boil down to the design of the nozzle?

01:44:32.480 | So maybe, can you explain how is it possible

01:44:34.200 | to achieve this thing for an engine to be as efficient

01:44:37.480 | at, in a vacuum and sea level and all different conditions?

01:44:41.320 | - You know what I love about this is that

01:44:43.080 | every question you've asked me is like a one hour video

01:44:45.200 | on my YouTube channel.

01:44:46.800 | Now boil it down to 45 seconds.

01:44:48.880 | - Go.

01:44:50.640 | - So the aerospike engine basically

01:44:53.560 | is an inside out engine, more or less.

01:44:56.000 | So with a traditional engine,

01:44:57.520 | we've talked about the combustion chamber and the throat

01:44:59.520 | and then it expands out into the nozzle.

01:45:01.460 | Those walls are containing the pressure, right?

01:45:05.320 | Aerospike is the opposite.

01:45:06.520 | It's basically the pressure of the engine

01:45:08.400 | is on the outside of it

01:45:09.800 | and it's pushing inward against a spike.

01:45:13.240 | So it's almost like the difference of if you were,

01:45:18.240 | let me think about this.

01:45:19.300 | If you were standing in like a tent or a teepee, right?

01:45:22.480 | And you put your arms at the top

01:45:23.960 | and you pushed your arms out

01:45:25.160 | like into an iron cross or something, you know?

01:45:27.080 | You can physically lift the tent

01:45:28.320 | just by pushing outwards on the tent walls, right?

01:45:31.960 | Well, that would be like a traditional nozzle.

01:45:33.680 | Now aerospike would be almost like squeezing an ice cube.

01:45:36.240 | You know, if you squeeze an ice cube,

01:45:37.280 | you can push in on it and kind of that wedge force

01:45:39.880 | will shoot that ice cube.

01:45:41.440 | So that's kind of what has happened.

01:45:42.640 | We have the high pressure gases on the outside of the spike

01:45:45.580 | squeezing in on that spike

01:45:47.300 | and then it's pushing up against the,

01:45:49.660 | you know, 'cause it's equal on both sides

01:45:51.700 | against like kind of the ramp

01:45:53.280 | is pushing up against the rocket.

01:45:55.060 | So that's where that force comes in

01:45:56.340 | is against the nozzle and against the chambers.

01:45:58.740 | The hard part with an aerospike.

01:45:59.940 | So the cool, okay, I guess the cool thing

01:46:01.620 | about an aerospike is that it can operate in space.

01:46:06.620 | You can have what's known as a really big expansion ratio.

01:46:10.380 | So that's your ratio between the throat,

01:46:12.400 | the area of the throat versus the area of the nozzle exit.

01:46:16.840 | And remember how the bigger the nozzle is,

01:46:19.360 | the it's continually just converting more and more

01:46:22.320 | is converting that high energy, hot, high pressure gas

01:46:25.920 | into cooler and cooler, lower pressure and faster gas.

01:46:30.720 | So each little millimeter along that nozzle

01:46:33.120 | is just getting it lower pressure and cooler, but faster.

01:46:37.360 | Now, if you take a big nozzle on earth

01:46:39.000 | and you at sea level and you fire it,

01:46:41.240 | you can actually get,

01:46:42.220 | even though we're going from say 300 bar,

01:46:43.800 | the Raptor engine, our atmosphere at sea level

01:46:46.480 | is about one bar.

01:46:47.400 | It's pretty much exactly one bar depending on conditions,

01:46:51.000 | but you can actually get a nozzle

01:46:53.280 | to get way below one bar of pressure.

01:46:57.260 | So every little, you can go from 300 bar

01:47:00.720 | in just two meters down to one bar or below one bar.

01:47:04.600 | There's actually a limit.

01:47:05.460 | You can actually only expand it below,

01:47:08.560 | we'll say something like 70%.

01:47:10.520 | So you can get down to like 0.7 bar at nozzle exit

01:47:14.000 | before the pressure of the atmosphere

01:47:15.960 | is actually squeezing in on that exhaust

01:47:18.800 | and tearing it away from the walls of the engine,

01:47:21.480 | the walls of the nozzle exit.

01:47:23.640 | And what happens is it's kind of unpredictable.

01:47:25.880 | You get these pockets, these oscillations,

01:47:28.000 | and they'll be so extreme

01:47:29.240 | that they'll end up just destroying the nozzle.

01:47:31.540 | So you can't lower, you can't have a bigger expansion ratio

01:47:35.560 | than again, relatively speaking, something like 0.7.

01:47:38.400 | Like you can't go below,

01:47:40.020 | you can't get that pressure exit

01:47:42.120 | too much below ambient air pressure

01:47:43.780 | before flow separation can destroy the engine.

01:47:46.160 | - So how come this engine can do so well

01:47:49.160 | in different pressure conditions?

01:47:51.600 | - So because it's inside out,

01:47:53.320 | the ambient pressure is pushing the exhaust gas

01:47:56.120 | into the wall as opposed to a conventional engine

01:47:59.120 | that exhaust gas, the ambient air

01:48:01.200 | is actually squeezing the exhaust gas

01:48:03.320 | away from the walls of the engine.

01:48:05.760 | And that squeezing away from is what can be destructive.

01:48:09.100 | So that since it's kind of inside out,

01:48:11.520 | the ambient air is pushing the exhaust gas

01:48:13.400 | into the engine walls.

01:48:14.840 | So you can't have flow separation.

01:48:16.400 | You won't have flow separation.

01:48:18.400 | Now what happens is, so you can have this huge,

01:48:21.020 | amazingly like efficient vacuum engine

01:48:23.240 | that has a, we'll say a 200 to one expansion ratio,

01:48:26.240 | which is really big.

01:48:27.080 | Like a lot of sea level engines are like 35, 40,

01:48:30.320 | 50 to one expansion ratios.

01:48:32.520 | And then in space, you know, it's common to use like 150,

01:48:35.320 | 180, 200 to one expansion ratios.

01:48:38.200 | So an aerospike can have something like 200 to one.

01:48:40.880 | It's just that the, at sea level,

01:48:42.500 | it's kind of just getting pushed

01:48:43.540 | and it's kind of getting cut off early almost,

01:48:45.140 | but it doesn't matter.

01:48:45.980 | It's not like destructive.

01:48:46.820 | It's just not running at its maximum efficiency.

01:48:49.640 | As it climbs in altitude,

01:48:50.780 | as the ambient air gets thinner and thinner and thinner,

01:48:53.660 | it just inherently is pushing less and less and less

01:48:56.100 | against the walls of that aerospike engine.

01:48:59.300 | So it actually continually gets more efficient at,

01:49:02.980 | you know, as it climbs in altitude.

01:49:05.140 | As does a normal engine,

01:49:06.300 | but the difference is that you can use

01:49:08.240 | that huge expansion ratio at sea level

01:49:10.520 | and you can't use a huge expansion ratio at sea level

01:49:13.840 | with a traditional nozzle.

01:49:16.160 | - Has anyone actually flown an aerospike engine?

01:49:18.920 | - No aerospike engine to date

01:49:20.400 | has ever been flown on an orbital rocket.

01:49:22.520 | - Why not?

01:49:23.340 | And would you like to see a future where they're used?

01:49:26.160 | - Purely because I think they're cool.

01:49:28.760 | - Yeah.

01:49:29.600 | - You know, in the same way--

01:49:30.420 | - So that's the core of your love affair

01:49:31.640 | with aerospike engines is the coolness.

01:49:32.760 | - It's just, and I said this in my video.

01:49:34.880 | Actually, outside, before I came in here,

01:49:37.500 | I saw an RX-7 in the streets that I just love.

01:49:41.580 | And that uses a rotary engine.

01:49:43.460 | On paper, the rotary engine is like more efficient,

01:49:46.140 | does all, you know, smaller, more efficient,

01:49:47.680 | all these things.

01:49:48.520 | But in practice, it's like,

01:49:49.540 | the thing is actually just like unreliable, hot,

01:49:51.980 | and it, you know, it blah, blah, blah, blah, burns oil.

01:49:55.400 | It's kind of the same thing with the aerospike engine.

01:49:56.900 | Like, yes, on paper, it's more efficient,

01:49:59.140 | but now you have a lot more surface area

01:50:01.540 | of your throat area, no matter what,

01:50:05.480 | is going to have, the throat of the rocket engine

01:50:08.800 | is always where it's the hottest.

01:50:09.880 | You know, it's the hardest thing to cool.

01:50:11.440 | And with an aerospike, if, you know,

01:50:13.440 | if it's inside out, now your throat is,

01:50:16.280 | no matter what, like way bigger.

01:50:18.400 | You know, it's almost like the size

01:50:19.700 | of the nozzle exit normally,

01:50:21.320 | but now it's your hardest thing to cool,

01:50:22.840 | and you have a ton of it,

01:50:24.360 | and you also have two edges of it, no matter what.

01:50:26.480 | So even if you have like a, you know,

01:50:28.000 | a circle inside a circle,

01:50:29.840 | you have like a just insane amount more surface area

01:50:34.140 | to cool with a limited amount of fuel.

01:50:35.980 | Don't forget, you're using your fuel as your coolant.

01:50:39.820 | So if you all of a sudden now take your throat area,

01:50:41.900 | and you have X amount of space that you need to cool,

01:50:46.100 | you only have, you have a limited supply.

01:50:48.180 | It's like, ugh, it's, sorry, this is the stuff that just--

01:50:50.980 | - Are there ideas of for cooling,

01:50:52.840 | for cooling aerospike engines?

01:50:56.260 | - It's, same physics apply for an aerospike as they would.

01:50:59.380 | So you just run into a limitation.

01:51:01.320 | Like at some point, I'm not flowing enough propellant.

01:51:04.400 | It scales, it scales kind of poorly.

01:51:07.360 | You know what I mean?

01:51:08.200 | Like you can increase the thrust of an aerospike

01:51:09.860 | by making it bigger and increase the mass flow

01:51:11.960 | and the fuel going through the throats or the throat,

01:51:15.280 | but at the same time, like it just,

01:51:16.960 | it's at the end of the day, it's physically possible.

01:51:20.640 | It's a lot more complex.

01:51:22.280 | You have a lot of issues with cooling,

01:51:24.220 | and it just, you end up kind of right back

01:51:25.640 | where you started.

01:51:26.880 | So it's like, is it worth it

01:51:28.320 | to just keep going down this rabbit hole,

01:51:31.080 | trying to engineer this thing to work,

01:51:33.020 | when you could have probably spent a tenth

01:51:34.880 | of the amount of time just slightly increasing

01:51:36.360 | the performance of your normal engine in the first place?

01:51:39.680 | - Again, I'm going to anthropomorphize that lesson

01:51:43.960 | and apply it to my dating life.

01:51:45.760 | And once again, just kidding.

01:51:47.300 | Okay, actually just on a small tangent,

01:51:51.240 | since you are also a car guy,

01:51:53.480 | what's the greatest combustion engine car ever made to you?

01:51:57.880 | If you had to pick something,

01:51:59.560 | what's the coolest, the sexiest, the most powerful,

01:52:03.840 | the classiest, the most elegant, well-designed?

01:52:07.640 | I don't know what category.

01:52:08.480 | - A lot of those things are different for me,

01:52:09.920 | but I'd still-- - They are?

01:52:11.400 | - I still, it's funny, 'cause now,

01:52:12.980 | maybe it's just 'cause it's fresh on mind,

01:52:14.460 | but I love that mid '90s RX-7,

01:52:18.920 | which, especially in Japan, they had the 20B, a tri-rotor.

01:52:23.920 | That is like the coolest engine ever to me.

01:52:26.880 | - Yeah, what maybe?

01:52:28.920 | - The FD RX-7.

01:52:30.360 | It's just too darn cool, honestly.

01:52:33.200 | It'd be, there you go.

01:52:37.760 | - Well, what about the mid '90s that makes it special?

01:52:40.760 | - Just that's the only time-- - Everything was--

01:52:42.120 | - It's more that I love the engine

01:52:43.760 | and I like the car it's attached to.

01:52:45.360 | I mean, I'm not actually a big fan

01:52:46.740 | of '90s styling, personally,

01:52:49.240 | but just that the 20B is just such a cool, cool engine.

01:52:52.760 | And it's twin turbo, sequential turbos.

01:52:54.960 | So they used, a bigger turbo takes longer to spool up.

01:52:58.920 | You know, it takes more, it's using that same,

01:53:00.480 | like a turbine and a compressor.

01:53:02.640 | And it just, if it's a large turbine,

01:53:04.600 | it takes more exhaust gas to get it spooled up.

01:53:07.360 | So if you have an engine that revs to 9,000 RPM

01:53:09.560 | and you wanna get a lot of pressure out of that turbo,

01:53:12.120 | you have a big turbo, it's gonna take forever.

01:53:14.120 | Like you're gonna have, you know, your floor,

01:53:15.400 | and then like, it's gonna take a long time

01:53:17.920 | for that turbo to get spooled up.

01:53:19.320 | So they actually did a small turbo on it and a big turbo.

01:53:22.140 | So the small turbo would spool up first,

01:53:23.960 | get some boost going through the engine,

01:53:25.400 | get that engine operating, get it up to speed,

01:53:28.160 | get it, you know, get some power to the wheels.

01:53:29.880 | And then once that kind of reaches its limit,

01:53:31.720 | you'd flow it into the, divert the exhaust gas

01:53:34.660 | into the bigger turbo, it's this sequential turbo.

01:53:37.520 | And then that now can supplement

01:53:39.320 | and actually increase the, you know,

01:53:40.680 | overall performance of the vehicle by a lot.

01:53:42.920 | And I just, I think that's just so cool.

01:53:44.960 | It's just like the ultimate, like,

01:53:46.960 | brute force, out of the box thinking,

01:53:49.840 | and it actually made it into production.

01:53:51.320 | You know what I mean?

01:53:52.560 | - Can you, what's it sound like?

01:53:55.120 | Can you tell an engine by its sound?

01:53:56.880 | - It sounds like a really, really, really angry lawnmower.

01:54:00.740 | It sounds horrible.

01:54:02.840 | It's actually a terrible sounding car.

01:54:04.400 | In my opinion, like, it sounds just raspy

01:54:07.060 | and like the opposite of like a big muscle car.

01:54:09.960 | You know, like a big muscle car has this deep guttural,

01:54:12.000 | like, oh, it just, it hits you.

01:54:14.120 | This is like, it's just gonna annoy the hell out of you

01:54:16.440 | and all your neighbors.

01:54:17.280 | Like it's-

01:54:18.100 | - But you love the engineering.

01:54:19.160 | - I love the engineering of it.

01:54:20.920 | - So to you, the car is the engine.

01:54:23.240 | It's not all the surface stuff, all the design stuff,

01:54:27.400 | all the, you know, yeah, the elegance,

01:54:30.800 | the curves, whatever it is.

01:54:32.440 | - Well, those come and go, you know, to me, styles change.

01:54:35.440 | - It's forever.

01:54:36.280 | - Yeah.

01:54:37.100 | - I'm gonna apply that to my dating life once again.

01:54:40.400 | Metaphors, just keep on coming.

01:54:42.200 | - Well, if you think about it, like,

01:54:43.880 | my taste has changed throughout the years.

01:54:45.280 | When I first saw a Model 3 Tesla,

01:54:48.320 | I thought it was the most hideous car I've ever,

01:54:50.400 | without the grill, I was like, this is so stupid.

01:54:52.960 | It took me all but two months to think

01:54:55.160 | that it was one of the coolest looking cars.

01:54:56.600 | Same with Cybertruck.

01:54:57.440 | I mourned Cybertruck.

01:54:59.000 | When I first saw that thing, I was at that thing with,

01:55:02.360 | and I went with, we used to do a podcast

01:55:04.360 | called Our Ludicrous Future.

01:55:06.280 | So we talked a lot about like, you know,

01:55:07.640 | cars and EVs and stuff.

01:55:09.220 | We went to that unveiling and literally, like,

01:55:11.360 | we had like almost a non-alcohol induced hangover

01:55:14.240 | the next morning of like mourning

01:55:16.480 | the hideousness of Cybertruck.

01:55:18.960 | Come six months later, a year later,

01:55:20.840 | and I'm like, damn it, that thing's actually kinda cool.

01:55:23.120 | - Yeah, that also teaches you something about,

01:55:25.760 | again, it's the thing you said earlier,

01:55:28.560 | sort of going against the current

01:55:33.560 | of the experts of the beliefs or whatever

01:55:35.960 | and making a decision from first principles.

01:55:38.720 | Some of that also applies to design and styling

01:55:41.040 | and fashion and culture and all that.

01:55:42.280 | - Big time.

01:55:43.320 | - Some of that, you know, fashion especially.

01:55:46.680 | It's so interesting.

01:55:47.520 | - So subjective.

01:55:48.440 | - Being rebellious against the current fads

01:55:53.440 | actually is the way to pave the new fads.

01:55:58.520 | - Well, it didn't take long for others to follow.

01:56:01.320 | You look at like currently like what Hyundai's doing

01:56:03.500 | with their, I forget which one,

01:56:05.400 | like the Ioniq or something like that.

01:56:07.440 | It's square, it's boxy, you know, it's a throwback.

01:56:10.840 | It's 80s, it's got these beautiful retro taillights.

01:56:13.200 | It's got these square headlights.

01:56:15.280 | It's very inspired by Cybertruck in my opinion.

01:56:19.120 | It might not be, it might be coincidental

01:56:20.960 | that we're all kind of getting this retro future vibe.

01:56:24.400 | - I personally like the boxy.

01:56:26.560 | So I never, I still haven't understood Porsches.

01:56:31.080 | I still can't quite understand the small size,

01:56:37.240 | the curves, I don't quite get it.

01:56:41.080 | - See, like I said, I don't love the look of the RX-7.

01:56:43.840 | I don't love it, but I love it because of the engineering,

01:56:46.960 | I guess, that it represents, you know what I mean?

01:56:49.040 | - Yeah, it's not the surface stuff.

01:56:51.480 | It's the deep down stuff.

01:56:52.880 | - It's that 50/50 weight distribution that matters.

01:56:56.440 | - All right, let's talk about Starship a little bit.

01:56:59.520 | We've been sneaking up to it

01:57:01.720 | from a bunch of different directions.

01:57:04.120 | Can you just say, what is Starship

01:57:08.960 | and what is the most impressive thing to you about it?

01:57:12.160 | I mean, you've talked about sort of the engines involved.

01:57:14.960 | Maybe you haven't really, you're kind of

01:57:17.200 | like dancing around it, but because this is such a crucial

01:57:21.880 | thing in terms of the next few years,

01:57:25.480 | in terms of your own life personally,

01:57:27.520 | and also just human civilization reaching out to the stars,

01:57:31.800 | it seems like Starship is a really important vehicle

01:57:34.840 | to making that happen.

01:57:35.680 | So what is this thing that we're talking about?

01:57:37.920 | - Yeah, so Starship is currently in development,

01:57:42.920 | the world's largest, most powerful rocket ever built,

01:57:47.000 | fully reusable rocket, a two-stage rocket.

01:57:50.080 | So the booster is landed, and all this

01:57:53.640 | is currently aspirational until it's working.

01:57:56.200 | So I'll say what it's aspirationally going to be,

01:58:00.240 | and obviously I have faith that that will happen,

01:58:01.760 | but just factually.

01:58:03.280 | So the booster will be reused,

01:58:05.120 | it's landed and refueled and reused.

01:58:06.880 | The upper stage will be landed, refueled, and reused,

01:58:09.920 | and ideally rapidly, in the sense,

01:58:12.600 | not talking about months or weeks of refurbishment,

01:58:15.240 | but literally talking about like mild inspections,

01:58:18.080 | and ideally like under 24-hour reuse,

01:58:21.360 | where you literally land it and fly it like an airplane.

01:58:24.500 | So it utilizes liquid methane and liquid oxygen

01:58:27.760 | as its propellants.

01:58:29.760 | It utilizes, the current iterations of it

01:58:32.320 | are 33 Raptor engines on the booster engine, on the booster,

01:58:37.200 | and six Raptors on the second stage.

01:58:40.000 | So there'll be three that are vacuum optimized,

01:58:42.320 | and three that are sea level optimized on the upper stage,

01:58:45.080 | that are primarily, they'll be used, I think,

01:58:46.800 | at stage separation anyway, in space,

01:58:49.260 | but their main reason that they use them

01:58:51.520 | is so they can use them for landing too,

01:58:53.440 | the three sea level engines,

01:58:56.140 | to be able to propulsively land the upper stage as well.

01:58:59.040 | - So the three Raptor engines are the ones

01:59:01.260 | that generate the thrust that makes it

01:59:03.800 | the most powerful rocket ever built.

01:59:05.600 | - By almost double.

01:59:08.400 | - Compared to the Saturn V, really?

01:59:09.920 | - The N1 had 45 mega newtons of thrust,

01:59:12.360 | the Saturn V had, I think, 35 or 40 mega newtons of thrust,

01:59:16.620 | and this has 75 mega newtons,

01:59:18.440 | so we're talking almost double.

01:59:20.740 | (both laughing)

01:59:24.320 | It's a lot of power.

01:59:27.200 | - That could be the sexiest thing I've ever heard.

01:59:30.320 | Okay, so what are the different testing that's happening?

01:59:34.320 | So what's the static fire

01:59:37.880 | with some of these Raptors look like,

01:59:39.280 | and where do we stand?

01:59:40.120 | You were just talking about offline,

01:59:42.280 | like the thing that happened yesterday.

01:59:44.920 | - Yeah. - That was impressive.

01:59:46.160 | - You know, everything in this is kind of iterations,

01:59:48.420 | and so the milestones that we're seeing,

01:59:51.320 | we actually have on everydayastronaut.com,

01:59:53.720 | we have a milestone checklist

01:59:54.920 | of all the things we're hoping to see,

01:59:56.720 | that we kind of need to see

01:59:57.640 | before the first orbital flight of this rocket.

02:00:00.560 | So a big milestone that got checked off yesterday

02:00:02.900 | was a wet dress rehearsal.

02:00:04.640 | So it's literally like fueling the rocket up,

02:00:07.800 | getting ready to do everything

02:00:09.520 | but lighting the engines, basically.

02:00:10.960 | So we're talking about loading it with propellant

02:00:12.600 | all the way, and this is the first time,

02:00:14.680 | yep, right there. - Where's the milestones?

02:00:16.280 | - Right there at the top.

02:00:17.120 | Click that big picture.

02:00:18.900 | Yep, just anywhere, that big picture, yep.

02:00:21.720 | - So there's the wet dress rehearsal,

02:00:23.660 | so what's the wet dress rehearsal?

02:00:25.640 | - Yep, so that's where they, for the first time,

02:00:28.400 | they filled it completely to the brim

02:00:30.200 | with both liquid oxygen and liquid methane.

02:00:32.640 | Now, they had done component level testing

02:00:34.340 | where they fill it with liquid nitrogen,

02:00:36.240 | which is, you know, it's an inert gas,

02:00:38.280 | so it's not, like, say it leaks out,

02:00:39.760 | it's not gonna explode.

02:00:41.400 | You could just have a big, giant pool of liquid nitrogen

02:00:43.680 | like flooding the area,

02:00:45.420 | but it's not gonna be an explosion.

02:00:47.040 | So they've done that for cryo testing

02:00:48.640 | to make sure all the components and stuff can handle,

02:00:51.000 | you know, being at cryogenic temperatures.

02:00:53.400 | It's kind of a good analog

02:00:54.600 | before you start putting your fuel

02:00:56.440 | and your oxidizer in there.

02:00:57.620 | But now, as of yesterday,

02:01:00.160 | they fully fueled the rocket with propellant,

02:01:02.780 | both stages, the first stage and the second stage,

02:01:04.800 | while fully stacked on the pad.

02:01:06.520 | Like, basically, I mean, it was the first sense

02:01:08.640 | we really got of, like, this is what it's gonna look like

02:01:10.460 | right before it takes off.

02:01:12.140 | You know, kind of breathing,

02:01:13.600 | coming to life for the first time.

02:01:15.440 | - What does the pad look like?

02:01:16.760 | So there's a few interesting aspects to this.

02:01:18.920 | What's up with the chopsticks and all of that?

02:01:21.820 | - Yeah, so the launch pad is unique.

02:01:25.180 | I've never seen anything like it

02:01:27.340 | in the prior history of space flight.

02:01:30.900 | But it's a really simple launch stand.

02:01:32.940 | They basically have like this,

02:01:33.980 | almost looks like a stool,

02:01:35.520 | like a milking a cow stool thing

02:01:38.580 | with a big giant--

02:01:40.060 | - Now I know you're from Iowa, but yeah.

02:01:41.780 | (laughing)

02:01:43.180 | Yes, we all know what that stool looks like.

02:01:44.620 | - Oh yeah, we all been sitting on that stool milking cows.

02:01:47.060 | - Yeah, been there, done that.

02:01:50.060 | - With a giant hole in the middle,

02:01:51.420 | and that hole in the middle of that stool

02:01:52.900 | is where the rocket sits,

02:01:53.980 | and it sits on these launch clamps.

02:01:56.380 | And then next to it is the,

02:01:58.900 | so that's the orbital launch mount,

02:02:00.500 | and then next to it are the OLM, some people will say.

02:02:03.260 | Next to it is the orbital launch tower, the OLT.

02:02:06.500 | And that is not only integral to fueling up the upper stage,

02:02:11.500 | you know, the upper stage has to have

02:02:12.820 | propellant lines run to it

02:02:14.460 | so that they can fill it with propellant and all that.

02:02:17.820 | But it also, they ended up making it

02:02:20.100 | so instead of having a big crane on site

02:02:22.020 | to stack the two on top of each other,

02:02:23.860 | they literally just used that tower as a crane.

02:02:26.700 | So the crane has these giant arms,

02:02:28.140 | lovingly called the chopsticks,

02:02:29.460 | or the whole system can be called Mechazilla.

02:02:32.500 | And that will grab onto,

02:02:33.460 | first it'll grab onto the booster,

02:02:35.340 | pick it up off of its transporter

02:02:37.420 | that transports it from the production site,

02:02:39.980 | lifts it up, puts it down onto the launch mount,

02:02:42.460 | and then it will pick up the second stage

02:02:44.820 | or the upper stage starship,

02:02:46.260 | and plop it down on top of the booster.

02:02:49.660 | And they did that for the first time last year.

02:02:51.620 | Actually, I think it was like Valentine's last year

02:02:53.220 | was the first time they used the chopsticks to stack it.

02:02:55.700 | And now they're doing it quite frequently, you know.

02:02:58.300 | But ultimately, those chopsticks

02:02:59.980 | have to serve a second purpose.

02:03:01.300 | They're actually going to utilize,

02:03:03.140 | if you say, it's not so much they're going to catch

02:03:06.300 | the booster with these chopsticks,

02:03:07.620 | it's not like it's, you know,

02:03:08.540 | a dad trying to catch a falling child, you know.

02:03:11.260 | It's more that the booster and the starship

02:03:13.860 | will someday land on those arms.

02:03:17.300 | - Yeah.

02:03:18.180 | - So they're more or less stationary.

02:03:20.740 | I'm sure there's some bit of, you know,

02:03:22.660 | adjustment that the arms will do,

02:03:23.760 | but more or less, the rocket's going to propulsively land

02:03:26.580 | and get picked up by like,

02:03:27.940 | what's essentially like two relatively small ball joints

02:03:32.420 | that hold the entire thing.

02:03:34.300 | And so it has to land very precisely on these mounts

02:03:38.700 | and onto the launch mount.

02:03:40.620 | And that's what's going to just place it back onto the stand

02:03:43.020 | and allow it to be refueled and fly again.

02:03:46.260 | - What's the idea of using the arms

02:03:48.180 | versus having a launch pad to land on?

02:03:50.860 | What's the benefit?

02:03:52.500 | - You are basically removing the mass

02:03:54.540 | of what would be heavy landing legs,

02:03:56.300 | and you're putting kind of that landing infrastructure

02:03:58.660 | onto a ground system.

02:03:59.700 | So you're not having to carry those landing legs into orbit.

02:04:02.740 | - But it's also elevated off the ground.

02:04:04.660 | Is there some aspect of that

02:04:05.780 | where you don't have to balance the thrust and all the--

02:04:08.660 | - You can negate some of those,

02:04:10.860 | like there's like plume-plume interactions.

02:04:12.300 | There's like, you know, the exhaust hitting concrete,

02:04:14.460 | and especially with a rocket this big,

02:04:15.900 | it's gonna use like three Raptor engines firing.

02:04:19.420 | If you have them firing really close to the ground,

02:04:22.180 | you're just gonna absolutely destroy and crater the ground,

02:04:24.260 | and you're gonna have to refurbish the ground

02:04:26.260 | and the landing pad every time,

02:04:28.460 | and, you know, or have huge landing legs

02:04:30.620 | that are super long and tall, you know,

02:04:33.340 | to make it so it's elevated enough to not do that.

02:04:36.660 | So yeah, you're avoiding that whole mess

02:04:39.740 | by catching it high enough off the ground

02:04:41.780 | that you don't have to factor that in.

02:04:43.580 | - That's how many engines are involved

02:04:45.100 | in the landing part, is it three Raptor engines?

02:04:47.260 | - Well, we haven't actually, you know,

02:04:48.420 | we haven't to date seen the exact landing sequence,

02:04:52.380 | so it might be something like at first,

02:04:53.940 | they might light up, you know, seven or something,

02:04:56.460 | or nine or something, some number to accelerate quickly,

02:05:00.020 | or decelerate quickly, same thing,

02:05:01.820 | and then shut it down to three or something

02:05:05.500 | for a little bit more granular control.

02:05:07.700 | 'Cause unlike Falcon 9, Starship has enough engines

02:05:10.820 | and variability to actually, if it needed to hover,

02:05:12.940 | you know, to maybe more precisely align itself with the pad,

02:05:15.860 | it would have that capability.

02:05:17.460 | And especially having multiple engines, you know,

02:05:19.340 | if you only have a single engine running,

02:05:21.100 | you can't really roll, you know, your roll axis,

02:05:24.260 | you can do pitch and yaw,

02:05:25.180 | because the engine is kind of like a rudder,

02:05:27.740 | it can move in two axes,

02:05:30.100 | so you can easily pitch and yaw the vehicle,

02:05:32.420 | but to actually induce roll along its vertical axis,

02:05:35.580 | you would either need like auxiliary engines to roll it,

02:05:38.340 | or you'd need a pair of engines

02:05:39.780 | so they can be opposed and induce roll.

02:05:42.700 | So by having two or three running,

02:05:44.740 | they have all three axes of control that they would need,

02:05:47.460 | kind of like a broomstick, you know,

02:05:48.620 | and balancing a broomstick on your hand,

02:05:50.980 | they can just move it over,

02:05:52.060 | and if they need to align it to those landing nubs,

02:05:55.220 | you know, on the landing arms and stuff like that,

02:05:56.660 | then they can do that.

02:05:58.780 | - Speaking of pitch and yaw,

02:06:01.460 | the thing, so Starship flips on its belly flops,

02:06:05.820 | there's a interesting kind of maneuver

02:06:10.100 | on the way down to land.

02:06:12.220 | Can you describe that maneuver, what's involved with that?

02:06:14.140 | - Yeah, so this is definitely a first.

02:06:16.300 | I don't think anything's tried landing like this before,

02:06:18.340 | but the idea is when you're falling through the atmosphere,

02:06:21.820 | the atmosphere could actually do a lot of work for you.

02:06:23.860 | You know, you're moving quickly,

02:06:25.500 | something is falling from space,

02:06:27.700 | there's a lot of energy involved.

02:06:29.020 | - You have a really good video on this as well.

02:06:30.860 | (laughing)

02:06:32.340 | - And-- - Thank you.

02:06:33.700 | - As it's falling, you know, you can,

02:06:37.700 | you wanna let the atmosphere do as much work as it can.

02:06:40.660 | And so if you have a unsymmetric,

02:06:44.340 | you know, it's not a ball that's falling,

02:06:46.100 | this is some kind of object with shape,

02:06:48.540 | some, you know, at one face of it

02:06:50.780 | is going to have more surface area than the other face.

02:06:53.140 | So, you know, in the shape of like a cylinder,

02:06:55.580 | if you're falling, you know, like a soda can,

02:06:58.220 | if you're falling top or bottom first,

02:07:00.580 | it's a certain amount of surface area.

02:07:02.700 | If you flip that on its side,

02:07:03.780 | you actually have a lot more surface area.

02:07:05.740 | So with the same exact vehicle,

02:07:07.900 | you can actually have a lot more drag,

02:07:09.340 | you can actually slow it down a lot more

02:07:11.220 | using the exact same like, same atmosphere,

02:07:13.700 | same vehicle, just by turning it 90 degrees,

02:07:17.340 | you can slow it down substantially,

02:07:18.660 | like three or four times slower.

02:07:21.380 | So that's energy that you don't have to use anywhere else.

02:07:24.340 | You don't have to use an engine to slow you down,

02:07:25.980 | you don't have to do anything else.

02:07:27.020 | So SpaceX realized, okay, if we flip this thing on its side

02:07:29.180 | and let it fall like a skydiver almost, you know,

02:07:31.300 | instead of like pencil diving into the pool,

02:07:32.740 | you're belly flopping.

02:07:33.860 | You're maximizing the amount of surface area

02:07:37.500 | that's in the wind stream that's being slowed down.

02:07:39.900 | But obviously like, in order to land,

02:07:42.660 | especially if you're SpaceX and you know,

02:07:44.900 | Elon's obsessed with like not having different parts,

02:07:48.260 | you know, he wants, the best part is no part.

02:07:50.860 | So if you're going to land with the engines,

02:07:53.220 | you might as well use engines that you've already have,

02:07:55.980 | the engines that are, you know,

02:07:57.380 | used for the other portions of flight.

02:07:59.380 | So you kick those on and you use those engines

02:08:01.460 | to actually turn it 90 degrees

02:08:03.020 | from belly flopping to feet first.

02:08:05.620 | And that way you can use those same engines to land

02:08:09.100 | and you don't have to have like auxiliary landing engines.

02:08:11.580 | You don't have to have forces, you know,

02:08:13.220 | even if you were to land like on its belly

02:08:15.580 | with a separate set of engines,

02:08:17.060 | not only would those engines weigh a lot, you know,

02:08:19.140 | and be extra complexity, et cetera, et cetera,

02:08:21.700 | but you also don't have to make the ship

02:08:23.300 | be able to handle landing, you know, like on its belly

02:08:25.980 | as opposed to having the forces be vertical through it.

02:08:28.540 | - But it's a giant thing.

02:08:30.580 | You have to rotate in the air.

02:08:33.580 | - Huge.

02:08:34.420 | - And as you also highlight, you know,

02:08:36.300 | there's liquid fuel slushing around in the tank.

02:08:41.060 | So like you can't, I guess, use that fuel directly.

02:08:44.820 | You have to have another kind of fuel.

02:08:46.060 | Like there's just complexities there that are involved.

02:08:49.260 | Plus the actual maneuver is difficult from the,

02:08:53.620 | like what are the thrusters that actually make that,

02:08:57.100 | make all that happen?

02:08:58.380 | You're adding a lot of complexity, not a lot,

02:09:02.940 | but your complexity to the maneuver

02:09:06.060 | and possibility where failure could happen

02:09:08.100 | in order to sort of save,

02:09:10.860 | in order for the air to do some of the work.

02:09:14.260 | So what is some of that complexity?

02:09:16.380 | Just you can linger on it.

02:09:18.180 | - You know, if you think about what it's gonna take

02:09:19.940 | to go from horizontal to vertical,

02:09:22.560 | this rocket in particular,

02:09:24.660 | Starship has these big flaps.

02:09:26.940 | So it has kind of two nose flaps and two rearward flaps.

02:09:30.780 | The rearward flaps are a lot bigger

02:09:31.980 | because the majority of the mass,

02:09:33.620 | the engines and stuff are in the back of the vehicle.

02:09:35.820 | So in order to kind of be stable,

02:09:37.940 | and they just fold themselves inwards,

02:09:40.140 | like on their dihedral angle,

02:09:42.700 | at a dihedral angle in order to increase or decrease the drag.

02:09:46.620 | So you can control it's all three axes of control

02:09:49.340 | while it's falling on its belly,

02:09:52.220 | you can control it that way

02:09:53.220 | using these four different fins.

02:09:55.380 | So you have these giant moving surfaces

02:09:57.560 | that take thousands of horsepower.

02:10:00.220 | It's just insane amount of torque

02:10:01.420 | in order to move these quickly enough

02:10:02.920 | to be a valid control surface.

02:10:05.420 | So that's a huge complication is moving these fins

02:10:07.540 | and developing that landing algorithm

02:10:09.820 | and the control for a huge vehicle with flaps

02:10:13.820 | going like in and out, in and out, in and out to stay stable.

02:10:17.460 | Then right as you light the engines,

02:10:19.780 | now all of a sudden you want the top,

02:10:22.180 | you wanna flip the rocket 90 degrees

02:10:23.620 | so the rearward flaps, the bottom flaps fold in,

02:10:26.460 | they tuck all the way in to minimize drag.

02:10:28.240 | That's gonna make it wanna swing down.

02:10:30.480 | You extend the upper flaps,

02:10:31.700 | that makes it so the nose wants to pitch up.

02:10:34.020 | You kick on the engines,

02:10:36.000 | they're now lighting all three engines,

02:10:37.760 | at least as of the last successful attempts.

02:10:40.140 | They light all three of the sea level Raptor engines

02:10:42.060 | and they're pitched all the way,

02:10:43.580 | like 10 or 15 degrees or whatever

02:10:45.860 | the maximum pitch is on them.

02:10:47.860 | And that induces, it does that kick maneuver

02:10:51.060 | to kick it over from horizontal to vertical.

02:10:53.880 | Now the problem is you lit your engines

02:10:55.700 | while you're horizontal.

02:10:57.100 | So they put some horizontal velocity

02:11:00.060 | into the rocket, they push the rocket.

02:11:02.160 | At the time of lighting those engines,

02:11:04.460 | the nose is facing the horizon

02:11:06.360 | and the engines are facing the opposite horizon.

02:11:09.040 | So you now shot it a decent amount

02:11:11.260 | in the direction that you're not falling.

02:11:14.800 | So you have to factor that in to where you're landing

02:11:19.000 | 'cause you're gonna land on this precise,

02:11:20.200 | in this case you're gonna land on the inside

02:11:21.840 | of the loving arms of the chopsticks,

02:11:23.960 | the creed arms wide open,

02:11:25.840 | you're gonna try to land inside this.

02:11:27.200 | - Exactly, the song that will be playing

02:11:28.520 | through my head as I watch this now.

02:11:30.280 | Thank you, thank you for forever joining those two.

02:11:33.980 | I appreciate this.

02:11:36.440 | - And you have to very precisely control.

02:11:38.160 | So what you have to do is now that it's done that kick,

02:11:40.240 | you also have to cancel out that horizontal velocity.

02:11:42.980 | So it's actually gonna rotate beyond 90 degrees

02:11:46.160 | to cancel out that horizontal velocity

02:11:49.160 | and then modulate the engines to make it so the thrust

02:11:52.560 | is perfect so that it can control itself

02:11:55.680 | into a controlled landing.

02:11:57.360 | And all this is done in like 500 meters, like 1500 feet.

02:12:01.240 | You're doing all of those things

02:12:03.560 | stupidly close to the ground.

02:12:04.960 | It looks absurd.

02:12:06.240 | So far they've done five of these tests.

02:12:08.240 | The first four all blew up.

02:12:11.480 | They're all coming in from about 10 kilometers

02:12:14.640 | or 33,000 feet.

02:12:15.800 | Falling, flipping, again, this thing's huge.

02:12:19.560 | That just the booster or just the upper stage of this

02:12:22.280 | is like 50 meters tall.

02:12:24.640 | So it's 150, it's like 45 meters,

02:12:27.160 | about 50 meters tall, about 165 feet tall.

02:12:30.520 | Nine meters wide to 30 feet wide.

02:12:32.240 | It weighs something like,

02:12:34.160 | God, I don't remember if it's something

02:12:35.440 | like 120 metric tons, so 120,000 kilograms,

02:12:38.880 | two quarter of a million pounds empty.

02:12:42.040 | And it's doing this flip maneuver.

02:12:43.840 | And it has to do all this perfectly.

02:12:45.520 | So the first four attempts of this

02:12:47.080 | were pretty spectacular failures.

02:12:49.240 | - So just to clarify, which stage is doing this maneuver?

02:12:51.720 | - It's the upper stage is doing this belly flop maneuver.

02:12:54.720 | So this is the stage that would presumably

02:12:59.000 | have humans on board if we were to use.

02:13:02.720 | - And if things continue to plan.

02:13:05.360 | Now here's something I would love to see.

02:13:08.440 | Just saying this.

02:13:09.960 | If you already have these big aero surfaces, the flaps,

02:13:13.440 | they also have to move.

02:13:14.680 | They're on heavy motors and hinges and flaps

02:13:16.840 | and all that stuff.

02:13:18.080 | I'm actually surprised that for Earth,

02:13:20.720 | they aren't just looking at landing it horizontally

02:13:22.520 | on a runway like the space shuttle.

02:13:24.880 | - Ooh.

02:13:26.000 | - I mean, that worked.

02:13:27.640 | The Bron did it.

02:13:28.720 | You know, the Soviet Union's Bron.

02:13:30.600 | I rolled my R real hard there, sorry.

02:13:32.600 | - Thank you, wow.

02:13:33.560 | - Wow, really good space.

02:13:35.040 | - I'm very impressed, I'm very impressed.

02:13:37.080 | - And you know, the Bron did it.

02:13:38.680 | We have other space planes like the X-37B.

02:13:41.520 | We have the upcoming Sierra Nevada's Dream Chaser.

02:13:44.320 | It's, yeah, you have some extra mass in the wings,

02:13:46.880 | but so does Starship.

02:13:48.080 | Starship has the extra mass of those flaps

02:13:50.560 | and the motors and the hinges and all that stuff.

02:13:53.760 | I would like to see the trade on like,

02:13:56.120 | is it actually lighter weight to do that

02:13:59.560 | versus doing what SpaceX is doing?

02:14:01.920 | So yeah, I mean, that's the funny thing.

02:14:04.760 | I think realistically, if Elon walks in the door tomorrow

02:14:07.320 | and says, guys, we did some simulations

02:14:09.480 | and actually it's like, we can get another 5,000 kilograms

02:14:12.560 | into space if we just land it horizontally.

02:14:14.480 | If we kind of give up on our ego and land horizontally,

02:14:16.760 | at least on Earth, then, you know,

02:14:19.360 | I think they could be doing that pretty quickly.

02:14:21.720 | 'Cause that's the thing is,

02:14:23.440 | this ultimate thing has been to land on Mars

02:14:25.560 | and other planets, and Mars doesn't have a runway,

02:14:28.360 | doesn't have a thick enough atmosphere

02:14:31.120 | to utilize aerodynamic flight like that.

02:14:32.920 | So you have to do propulsive landing for Mars.

02:14:36.000 | You're gonna land on an unprepared surface, you know?

02:14:38.120 | So it has to be able to do this at some point.

02:14:41.080 | It sounds ridiculous, and it is,

02:14:45.000 | but the ultimate goal of it is to land on Mars.

02:14:47.400 | - There's not much of an atmosphere to like,

02:14:49.680 | to help you with the, for the belly flop to be useful.

02:14:53.280 | - There's only 1% the atmosphere on Mars

02:14:55.520 | as there is on Earth, but you still wanna utilize

02:14:58.040 | as much of that atmosphere as possible.

02:14:59.520 | So in the upper atmosphere, it's still going to be

02:15:02.280 | coming in more or less kind of perpendicular

02:15:05.360 | to the airstream.

02:15:06.200 | I guess it's probably more like, you know,

02:15:07.920 | 60 degrees, 70 degrees to the airstream,

02:15:10.840 | like where it's belly flopping.

02:15:12.600 | And it's gonna especially do that on Mars.

02:15:14.380 | It's gonna need to, you know, use up as,

02:15:17.460 | let the little bit of atmosphere there is,

02:15:19.400 | you know, you're coming in at insane velocities.

02:15:21.880 | And so even that 1% thin atmosphere

02:15:23.720 | is still going to do a lot of work.

02:15:25.560 | Now on Mars, there's only 38% of Earth's gravity on Mars.

02:15:30.240 | So the belly flop maneuver is a lot,

02:15:32.720 | it could be a lot more conservative.

02:15:34.160 | You could do that at like 5,000 feet up,

02:15:37.300 | and it just wouldn't matter as much

02:15:38.960 | 'cause there's not as much gravity loss or gravity drag.

02:15:41.480 | So you can kind of just more slowly, gently,

02:15:43.800 | you know, you don't have to do this crazy extravagant

02:15:46.080 | like belly flop, you know, flip maneuver.

02:15:49.640 | But it would still, something at some point,

02:15:51.200 | you would transition from more or less

02:15:53.240 | perpendicular to the airstream to, you know,

02:15:55.000 | on a horizontal to landing vertically.

02:15:58.000 | - I like how we're having this old, boring conversation

02:16:00.800 | about the differences of landing on Earth versus on Mars.

02:16:04.180 | This is surreal that this is actually a real conversation,

02:16:10.760 | that this is something that we're discussing.

02:16:13.800 | 'Cause it has to do both.

02:16:15.640 | - Yeah.

02:16:16.600 | But in my opinion, I think we'll pretty quickly

02:16:19.880 | see an evolution of Starship that's like

02:16:21.560 | dedicated versions for certain tasks.

02:16:24.800 | And at the end of the day, again,

02:16:26.680 | if someone runs a simulation and says

02:16:29.300 | it's actually more efficient and it's better

02:16:31.760 | just to land horizontally on a runway,

02:16:34.100 | then that's what's gonna happen.

02:16:35.760 | You know, it doesn't matter, but they still will develop,

02:16:39.320 | you know, if the ultimate goal is to land on Mars,

02:16:41.080 | then they'll have a dedicated Mars variant, you know,

02:16:44.040 | which will likely look different than the Earth variant,

02:16:46.720 | you know, and they'll probably be launched

02:16:48.400 | on the same booster, you know what I mean?

02:16:50.560 | So there's--

02:16:51.400 | - Oh, you mean like that particular vehicle

02:16:53.440 | will not be returning back to Earth,

02:16:55.000 | it'll need to be modified.

02:16:57.000 | 'Cause the ultimate is to have one Starship

02:16:59.560 | that goes to Mars, lands on Mars,

02:17:01.120 | then takes off of Mars, lands back on Earth,

02:17:03.520 | and is reused again.

02:17:05.000 | - Yeah. - Over and over and over.

02:17:06.120 | - And there's a chance that you, you know,

02:17:07.440 | you have just a cycler, just a, you know,

02:17:11.080 | if you're, at the end of the day,

02:17:12.440 | you're just really trying to see what is most feasible,

02:17:14.280 | what's the most efficient.

02:17:15.620 | You literally have a vehicle dedicated to Mars.

02:17:17.440 | Mars is easy to do a single stage orbit.

02:17:19.720 | It's a lot lower gravity, a lot thinner atmosphere.

02:17:22.400 | You can easily do a single stage orbit.

02:17:23.760 | You get into orbit, you'd park to a dedicated, you know,

02:17:27.320 | transfer vehicle that goes between Earth and Mars.

02:17:29.360 | It only stays in space.

02:17:30.280 | You don't have heat shields, you don't have landing legs,

02:17:31.880 | you don't have all these things that you need.

02:17:34.280 | And ideally, it's nuclear powered, so it's super efficient.

02:17:37.440 | That gets you back to Earth.

02:17:38.600 | Once you're at Earth, you rendezvous again

02:17:40.440 | with another landing starship,

02:17:42.440 | and that starship might be a horizontal runway starship,

02:17:45.840 | you know, like there's no, I don't see the,

02:17:48.640 | and I think ultimately it'll win out

02:17:50.640 | where we don't have a one size fits all.

02:17:52.360 | I think that's the flaw of the space shuttle,

02:17:54.880 | really, is that it was trying to do everything

02:17:56.880 | and ended up kind of doing nothing well.

02:17:58.960 | But that's, I think, what SpaceX has proven.

02:18:01.040 | I mean, SpaceX already has variants coming.

02:18:02.680 | There's already going to be a dedicated lunar lander

02:18:04.580 | for NASA, for the Artemis program.

02:18:06.760 | There's already going to be a tanker variant.

02:18:08.840 | There's already going to be likely just a pure cargo version.

02:18:11.880 | There's likely going to be a human version.

02:18:13.800 | We'll likely see evolutions of this thing happen,

02:18:16.640 | you know, relatively quickly.

02:18:18.720 | - And once it's all working,

02:18:20.520 | it's only a matter of weeks before people riding on it

02:18:23.920 | will be complaining about the speed of the wifi.

02:18:26.520 | (laughing)

02:18:28.200 | As the old, like, Louis C.K. joke,

02:18:30.440 | with like, you're flying on a chair through the air.

02:18:35.000 | It's incredible.

02:18:36.280 | - You didn't even know this existed,

02:18:37.760 | and now you're complaining about it.

02:18:39.960 | - It's great. - Exactly.

02:18:41.480 | - So you tweeted, "Fun fact about Starship.

02:18:44.400 | "By doing the flip around 500 meters

02:18:47.720 | "versus higher up, like 2,000 meters,

02:18:50.440 | "the difference in delta-v is 500 meters per second.

02:18:55.440 | "That's a 20-ton fuel saving,

02:18:58.000 | "which means basically 20 tons more you can put into orbit.

02:19:01.360 | "That's more than Falcon 9 has ever launched,

02:19:04.820 | "just by flipping later."

02:19:07.120 | - That's really interesting.

02:19:08.040 | So that was the decision, too, to flip close to the ground.

02:19:11.080 | - Yeah, yeah.

02:19:12.080 | The closer to the ground, the better.

02:19:13.200 | The more, again, the more the atmosphere is doing work,

02:19:16.240 | and, you know, we get into,

02:19:18.240 | that video really dives into, like,

02:19:19.600 | gravity losses and gravity drag.

02:19:21.080 | The more time you're spent,

02:19:22.680 | every second that your rocket engine is running,

02:19:25.520 | Earth is stealing 9.8 meters per second

02:19:27.560 | of acceleration against you.

02:19:29.120 | There's just inherently 9.8 meters per second

02:19:31.080 | squared of acceleration.

02:19:32.720 | So every second that engine is running,

02:19:35.300 | the first big majority of your thrust

02:19:38.280 | is actually being just stolen by Earth's gravity well.

02:19:41.040 | So the longer you're fighting that,

02:19:43.400 | the more inefficient it is.

02:19:44.800 | So I mean, the best thing would be,

02:19:46.520 | you flip at 100 meters off the ground,

02:19:49.840 | you light all your engines to maximum thrust,

02:19:51.760 | and you pull 50 Gs, you know,

02:19:53.720 | and you land on a dime, basically.

02:19:55.820 | Obviously, there's no margin there,

02:19:57.200 | and there's diminishing returns on that gravity loss thing

02:20:00.840 | and in your high thrust weight ratios.

02:20:02.520 | So that's a pretty good compromise.

02:20:04.520 | Yes, it looks scary,

02:20:05.400 | but they could be a lot more aggressive with that, yeah,

02:20:07.340 | and squeeze out even a little bit better performance,

02:20:09.820 | but there are diminishing returns.

02:20:11.020 | So that's kind of the magic number we've seen so far today,

02:20:14.380 | but we'll likely see that, you know, be played with.

02:20:17.460 | - You've attended some of these.

02:20:19.240 | What does it feel like to see Starship in person?

02:20:21.300 | First of all, when it's just sitting there stacked,

02:20:23.900 | and second of all, when it's doing some of these tests,

02:20:27.660 | some of these maneuvers?

02:20:29.460 | - Well, first off, if you have the freedom of traveling

02:20:32.260 | and happen to live within a reasonable,

02:20:35.320 | either by plane or car, it's worth going down to South Texas.

02:20:39.640 | So Starbase is right on the border of Mexico

02:20:42.500 | and the United States, in the very southern tip of Texas,

02:20:45.180 | right along the Rio Grande,

02:20:47.140 | and it's insane because it's right along a public highway.

02:20:51.800 | You can literally, anyone can drive down this,

02:20:53.800 | assuming it's not closed for testing,

02:20:55.440 | 'cause they do close the highways during the week

02:20:57.800 | a decent amount while they're doing tests,

02:20:59.800 | but sans any of those days, anyone can just drive down

02:21:03.980 | and see these things up close and personal

02:21:05.620 | with their own eyes.

02:21:06.460 | Like we're talking, you know, from 100, 200 meters away,

02:21:10.500 | you know, so two football fields away

02:21:12.040 | from the world's biggest, most powerful rocket.

02:21:14.220 | Imagine being able to do that during the, you know,

02:21:16.700 | Soviet Union and, you know, during the N1 and the Saturn V,

02:21:20.700 | you know, imagine just being able to drive up

02:21:22.540 | right next to the launch pad.

02:21:24.100 | There's no way, you know, and so to have this kind of access

02:21:28.560 | to this program is so incredible.

02:21:31.580 | The craziest thing is when you're driving out

02:21:33.780 | on Highway 4, it's bumpy, it's riddled with potholes now

02:21:38.780 | because of all the insane amount of trucks

02:21:41.220 | having to go out there and traffic,

02:21:42.580 | and you're going through this, it's just this weird,

02:21:45.020 | you're like, where am I?

02:21:46.020 | You occasionally are seeing, like you can kind of see the,

02:21:48.540 | I mean, you can see Mexico out your right window

02:21:50.260 | as you're driving down this highway, you know,

02:21:51.620 | and you're just sitting there, like, where am I?

02:21:53.260 | And then all of a sudden you kind of turn this corner

02:21:55.420 | and the trees and the brush kind of clear out,

02:21:57.140 | and all of a sudden you get a sense of everything

02:21:59.160 | on the horizon, and at that point you're pretty much

02:22:01.160 | five miles on the nose or eight kilometers away.

02:22:03.700 | And from there, you can just see through the heat haze,

02:22:07.540 | through the, you know, the atmospheric distortion,

02:22:10.180 | and you just see this weird, like,

02:22:12.660 | it looks like a city almost on the horizon, you know?

02:22:15.480 | There's tons of these tall buildings,

02:22:17.660 | there's a weird ominous launch tower thing

02:22:20.960 | with arms wide open, and sometimes,

02:22:24.120 | and, you know, a giant metal rocket.

02:22:26.740 | And it just looks so, so weird.

02:22:30.880 | I mean, it's, the word surreal, I think, by definition,

02:22:34.620 | I think if you are expecting it, it's not surreal.

02:22:37.820 | I think surreal kind of means, like,

02:22:39.100 | unexpected surprise or whatever, you know?

02:22:41.580 | Even if you're expecting it, even if you've seen pictures,

02:22:43.940 | even if everything, it is surreal.

02:22:46.540 | - Yeah.

02:22:47.380 | - You stand there and you just go, what is this?

02:22:50.980 | - And also, I mean, there's a kind of magical aspect

02:22:56.220 | to the, this is the place where, over the next few years,

02:22:59.580 | we'll start, as a human species, reaching out there,

02:23:04.380 | traveling out there.

02:23:05.760 | - We'll for sure see the development of the rockets

02:23:09.020 | that I think will take us further than ever before.

02:23:11.660 | Be born right there.

02:23:13.300 | - What's it like to witness the actual testing of Starship?

02:23:18.300 | - So far, it's been high stakes, like, it's been insane,

02:23:24.860 | so the first I kind of mentioned earlier,

02:23:26.940 | there's been SN8, 9, 10, 11, and 15

02:23:29.140 | that have all done these suborbital hops.

02:23:30.980 | The highest one went 12.5 kilometers

02:23:33.020 | and the rest of the four went 10 kilometers in altitude

02:23:36.540 | and then turned off the engines and just fell.

02:23:38.980 | Now, the cool thing about that is the general public

02:23:41.660 | could be about five miles away,

02:23:43.660 | so again, like eight kilometers away,

02:23:45.660 | and the weird thing is this rocket's slowly accelerating.

02:23:50.140 | They didn't want to exceed a certain speed,

02:23:52.080 | so they didn't have to worry about the aerodynamics of it.

02:23:53.820 | They just slowly climbed,

02:23:55.140 | and it probably also appeased the FAA.

02:23:56.940 | They were like, "Here, we'll just limit

02:23:58.500 | "the thrust to weight ratio and just make it

02:24:01.180 | "so it's slow and controlled, no big deal."

02:24:03.660 | So it's basically more or less like slightly above a hover,

02:24:06.300 | just climbing for minutes, for like four or five minutes,

02:24:10.260 | you just hear and feel the roar of this thing.

02:24:12.780 | Normal rockets, after the first 30 seconds or minute,

02:24:16.660 | they're so far away that it's just diminishing.

02:24:20.220 | It's just fading, fading, fading, fading.

02:24:21.700 | You still get that rumble, that sense,

02:24:23.220 | but those first five flights, the suborbital hops were,

02:24:27.460 | just, I'll cherish them forever,

02:24:29.100 | 'cause you're watching this thing

02:24:31.380 | that you've driven up next to,

02:24:33.180 | you've seen it with your own eyes,

02:24:34.820 | that's bigger than most buildings

02:24:36.960 | in a fairly dense urban area.

02:24:40.180 | It's this massive thing.

02:24:41.840 | You stand there, you stood there, you look at it,

02:24:43.540 | you're like, "Wow, that's crazy."

02:24:44.820 | You've seen people working on it,

02:24:45.820 | they're little ants compared to it.

02:24:47.780 | Then you drive away, and you see it on the horizon,

02:24:49.660 | and all of a sudden, that thing leaves.

02:24:51.220 | It starts moving.

02:24:52.340 | - Hovering. - Hovering.

02:24:53.700 | - Essentially. - The first time,

02:24:55.860 | I mean, for me, at least, I put my hands on my head.

02:25:00.260 | I can't help it.

02:25:02.700 | It's not, I don't know what it is.

02:25:04.020 | - It's surreal, like you said.

02:25:05.980 | - I don't know what in human nature decides

02:25:08.140 | this is what to do when you can't believe something,

02:25:10.180 | but that's what happens.

02:25:11.940 | When that thing first took off,

02:25:13.260 | it was just like my brain couldn't process seeing,

02:25:18.100 | 'cause I had spent so much time driving around

02:25:20.580 | and seeing it, and all of a sudden,

02:25:21.420 | you're watching it just take off,

02:25:22.660 | and you're like, "It's moving."

02:25:24.540 | And all these, you know,

02:25:25.780 | the most complicated rocket engines ever made

02:25:27.620 | are all firing simultaneously,

02:25:29.540 | and it didn't blow up on the launch pad,

02:25:31.260 | and it's slowly increasing, and it's just crazy,

02:25:34.500 | and the sound, everything about it.

02:25:37.180 | And so by the time, the first one specifically,

02:25:40.140 | it was December 2020, was the first SN8.

02:25:45.140 | It went up, and I actually, we all lost it in the sky.

02:25:50.300 | We couldn't quite see it, but we had telescopes

02:25:53.180 | and high telephoto lenses tracking it,

02:25:56.700 | and what's funny is there's a pretty strong wind

02:25:58.980 | up there at altitude, and it was moving.

02:26:02.180 | There's a lot of gaseous oxygen being vented

02:26:05.420 | out of the rocket, and it's being blown by this air,

02:26:08.500 | so it looks like it's moving actually quite quickly,

02:26:11.180 | like away from us, like it was strafing to one side.

02:26:14.940 | So I'm watching the monitor.

02:26:16.140 | I'm going, "Oh my God, they're moving it

02:26:17.820 | "like over Brownsville," and we're all, all of us,

02:26:21.660 | everyone on this hotel balcony is looking out down,

02:26:25.420 | like way out over, and we can't find it,

02:26:28.540 | and we're like, "Where did they lose it?"

02:26:30.300 | Like we're thinking like, "Oh my God,

02:26:31.980 | "this is gonna crash down in Brownsville."

02:26:34.660 | And finally, they shut the engines off,

02:26:37.380 | and we're watching it fall, and again, we're tracking it.

02:26:39.020 | We know it's falling, and it's falling, falling, falling.

02:26:41.500 | It's falling super controlled, and we're like,

02:26:42.880 | "Oh my God, this is perfect," and all of a sudden,

02:26:45.460 | it clicked, and I see it with my eyes.

02:26:48.180 | I finally like track it, and it's straight out,

02:26:50.980 | like straight in front of us, and it looks like

02:26:53.020 | it was a blimp, just barely moving,

02:26:56.220 | 'cause it is falling slowly, thanks to all of its drag,

02:27:00.080 | and again, that's one of those moments I'm like,

02:27:02.640 | "It's falling so slow," 'cause it's so big.

02:27:05.780 | It's so massive.

02:27:06.620 | It's falling sideways.

02:27:08.300 | I've seen Falcon 9 boosters and Falcon Heavy boosters,

02:27:10.780 | and they scream.

02:27:11.700 | They come in so fast, and you can barely even see them.

02:27:15.180 | You can just barely track them,

02:27:16.020 | and all of a sudden, they light their engines,

02:27:16.860 | and they decelerate so quickly.

02:27:18.660 | This was like the opposite.

02:27:19.540 | It was like, "Is that thing ever coming down?"

02:27:22.580 | It was just falling so slowly, and so right there.

02:27:25.420 | It just felt like it was so close,

02:27:27.180 | and so when it finally lit its engine, and it flipped,

02:27:29.140 | I was losing my mind, 'cause I'm like, "It's working."

02:27:32.420 | You know, this crazy plan, this huge, massive thing

02:27:35.940 | is doing this absurd feat, and the first one,

02:27:39.000 | well, the first four, again, didn't work out as planned,

02:27:41.320 | but getting to that point already,

02:27:43.120 | getting to that flip maneuver was a huge milestone,

02:27:45.540 | and it was so exciting just going through those firsts

02:27:49.100 | were amazing, and I think we're coming up now

02:27:51.660 | on them doing the full stacks of the booster

02:27:54.100 | and the upper stage.

02:27:55.940 | I think when we see that fly,

02:27:57.340 | when that leaves Earth for the first time,

02:28:00.260 | it'll be, like I said, almost twice the amount of thrust

02:28:01.980 | as anything else.

02:28:02.800 | It'll be the biggest, heaviest, largest thing to ever fly.

02:28:05.920 | It's going to shake everything.

02:28:08.980 | I can't wait.

02:28:11.140 | - Have all 33 Raptor engines been active at once?

02:28:15.200 | Have they tested that?

02:28:16.480 | - No, that's coming up.

02:28:17.720 | That's kind of the next milestone.

02:28:19.240 | I don't know when this will come out,

02:28:20.560 | but that's like the next--

02:28:22.680 | - Just a few days, very quickly here.

02:28:24.760 | - Then, but if people are listening to this,

02:28:26.520 | if they're listening to it early on,

02:28:27.840 | they'll likely be able to catch,

02:28:29.280 | you know, I think at this point, it seems like next week.

02:28:31.480 | - So step one would be static fire?

02:28:33.440 | - Yep, holding onto the rocket and lighting up the engines,

02:28:37.480 | and so, so far, they've lit, at most,

02:28:39.360 | they kind of, they went for like a,

02:28:41.120 | more than 14 engines static fired.

02:28:42.980 | I don't recall if it was like, you know,

02:28:44.560 | 16 or something engines lit at once,

02:28:46.800 | and they ended up going down to 14 engines.

02:28:50.100 | That's the most engines they've ever lit.

02:28:52.460 | So the next step, and the final kind of step

02:28:55.480 | before they fly this thing,

02:28:56.320 | is they're actually going to light

02:28:57.160 | all 33 engines simultaneously.

02:28:59.840 | And although that sounds scary,

02:29:02.080 | let's not forget the Falcon Heavy

02:29:03.800 | that's now flown five times completely flawlessly,

02:29:07.880 | has 27 engines running simultaneously.

02:29:10.880 | So they definitely have, you know,

02:29:11.960 | SpaceX has experience with a high number of engines running

02:29:15.520 | at the same time, but it is still like,

02:29:18.040 | this is going to be a lot of moving parts

02:29:20.560 | and a lot of potential and a lot, just a lot of everything.

02:29:24.680 | - What are the upcoming milestones, expected milestones?

02:29:29.680 | And I think there's one in particular

02:29:32.520 | I'd like to talk to you more about,

02:29:33.680 | but leading up to that, of course, is like,

02:29:36.200 | what are some of the tests here on the way?

02:29:38.320 | So is it the static fire,

02:29:40.240 | the fully stacked with the two stages?

02:29:44.140 | Will there be, and then all that leading

02:29:48.600 | to an orbital launch test?

02:29:51.920 | So what are the things we should know about?

02:29:54.760 | And what do you think, like,

02:29:56.400 | what do you think the timeline will be

02:29:58.240 | with like the orbital test?

02:29:59.780 | - Timeline, the reason that we have this website,

02:30:02.640 | the expected milestones, is because I always tell people

02:30:04.520 | to ignore any time you ever hear for any of this stuff,

02:30:07.720 | just pay attention to milestones,

02:30:09.160 | because when you're doing stuff for the first time,

02:30:11.840 | you just have no idea.

02:30:13.520 | - So just to understand the expected milestones here,

02:30:16.360 | the first column is the event,

02:30:18.080 | the second column is the date and status TBD complete,

02:30:22.400 | green means what?

02:30:23.900 | - Green means it's been completed

02:30:25.600 | and it shows the completion date there.

02:30:27.040 | - And the completion date.

02:30:28.160 | And then the other is, maybe more, maybe not,

02:30:32.320 | for the full stack testing.

02:30:34.320 | The D-stack and there's a 33 engine.

02:30:37.360 | - So realistically, we're expecting them to D-stack,

02:30:39.960 | and SpaceX, I think, just tweeted that, actually,

02:30:41.720 | that they're going to be D-stacking the second stage

02:30:45.120 | from the first stage,

02:30:45.960 | kind of get the ship safe while they test,

02:30:48.440 | because they don't want to, you know,

02:30:49.720 | 33 engines is pretty high risk

02:30:51.400 | if they do blow up the rocket.

02:30:54.080 | When they test it for the first time,

02:30:55.040 | it's not going to be fully fueled, I don't think, at least,

02:30:57.760 | but there is a limit to how,

02:30:59.760 | they do have to have it weighed down enough

02:31:01.140 | that the launch clamps can hold onto it,

02:31:03.200 | because if you think about it,

02:31:04.640 | normally the launch clamps are holding onto an entire rocket

02:31:07.920 | weighing five million kilograms?

02:31:11.400 | Five million, you know, it's weighing an insane amount,

02:31:14.280 | so those clamps don't actually have to hold

02:31:16.440 | 75 mega newtons of thrust,

02:31:18.180 | they really only have to hold down

02:31:19.400 | 25 mega newtons of thrust, you know what I mean?

02:31:21.880 | They're not designed to hold down all 75.

02:31:25.000 | They do have to have enough weight on the rocket,

02:31:27.480 | so even when they do the testing of the 33 engines,

02:31:30.140 | they'll have to have enough propellant in there

02:31:31.320 | that they don't exceed the clamping

02:31:32.800 | and the holding force of the stand,

02:31:34.280 | otherwise it'll break free from the launch stand

02:31:36.840 | and that booster will go flying off uncontrolled.

02:31:39.240 | - So it's a difficult thing to figure out in the test

02:31:41.680 | how many simultaneous things you test, right?

02:31:45.520 | - So they're kind of mitigating risks,

02:31:47.080 | which is why like, they're destacking,

02:31:48.600 | you know, they don't want to have,

02:31:49.520 | although the ship could be on top of it

02:31:50.880 | to help weigh it down and simulate the, you know,

02:31:53.400 | the launch environment better,

02:31:55.160 | at some point that's a risk they're just going to take

02:31:57.320 | when they go for launch,

02:31:58.680 | and so for now they're taking the ship off

02:32:00.320 | in case something goes wrong during the 33 engine test.

02:32:03.160 | And then once we see if the 33 engine test goes well,

02:32:05.800 | hopefully we see the second stage get stacked back on it.

02:32:09.160 | We'll see them get closer, like closing out all the items

02:32:12.060 | and hope, the big one too is the FAA launch license.

02:32:15.320 | That's a, that'll be publicly filed.

02:32:16.960 | We'll see that, you know, in the system,

02:32:19.560 | having a launch license.

02:32:20.520 | And I have no sense of that type of thing,

02:32:23.040 | you know, that's outside of,

02:32:24.480 | but that is a big milestone

02:32:26.040 | and it might be something that could potentially hinder,

02:32:28.920 | you know, hold up the launch date,

02:32:30.120 | we'll just be waiting for a launch license.

02:32:32.360 | - Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of fascinating bureaucracy

02:32:35.080 | and politics and legal stuff

02:32:38.720 | and all that kind of beautiful, magical thing

02:32:40.780 | when you live in reality.

02:32:42.400 | Because it is, I mean, it is a big rocket.

02:32:47.400 | - Yeah.

02:32:48.560 | Well, and the biggest thing, it's not so much,

02:32:50.320 | the FAA doesn't necessarily care

02:32:51.980 | about the success of the rocket.

02:32:53.600 | They really just care about the safety

02:32:55.440 | of public and public property, you know?

02:32:58.280 | So it's a matter of being convinced

02:33:00.960 | and having the data to prove,

02:33:02.640 | okay, if this thing blows up,

02:33:05.280 | we have a control of how and when it blows up.

02:33:07.680 | We have control of, you know, X, Y, and Z.

02:33:10.040 | Here's the potential damage, here's the blast radius.

02:33:12.800 | You know, this again is over twice as powerful

02:33:16.480 | and twice as much potential.

02:33:18.240 | Actually, it's a lot more potential

02:33:20.200 | for an explosive energy if it, you know,

02:33:22.840 | if it were to happen to,

02:33:24.160 | well, let me walk back a little bit

02:33:25.960 | because in order to have a real detonation,

02:33:27.640 | you have to have a perfect mixture ratio

02:33:29.040 | of your fuel and oxidizer.

02:33:30.520 | When a rocket blows up, typically, you know,

02:33:33.240 | it kind of unzips and some of the fuel

02:33:35.240 | will mix into some of the oxidizer

02:33:36.640 | and you could have some explosive energy.

02:33:39.000 | But a lot of it's actually just a deflagration.

02:33:41.240 | It's just, you know, flames.

02:33:42.720 | And there would be explosive energy,

02:33:46.000 | but it's not like you're lighting all of it simultaneously

02:33:48.440 | and it's this giant bomb.

02:33:50.240 | It's just really not.

02:33:51.080 | So that's good, but at the same time,

02:33:53.480 | even in those circumstances,

02:33:55.520 | the amount of energy is still absurd.

02:33:57.480 | Enough to likely blow out windows, you know,

02:33:59.360 | for miles and miles and miles, including my studio space.

02:34:03.320 | - Well, if the cameras hold up,

02:34:08.340 | it would be one heck of a show.

02:34:11.280 | Hopefully, of course, would not happen.

02:34:13.720 | So how does that take us to an orbital launch?

02:34:15.740 | When do you think that would happen?

02:34:17.640 | - In my opinion, this is a very fluid

02:34:20.600 | and this will change literally by the hour.

02:34:22.400 | - So you really think that it's very difficult

02:34:24.240 | to really say like, even for something

02:34:26.520 | that could very well happen this year,

02:34:28.640 | even just a few months away,

02:34:30.320 | you should make a prediction.

02:34:33.680 | By the way, are you like superstitious

02:34:35.200 | on this kind of stuff a little bit?

02:34:36.520 | Like, you're worried about jinxing it

02:34:38.240 | and that kind of stuff? - No, not at all.

02:34:39.440 | No.

02:34:40.280 | - Because I would imagine you would be like waiting

02:34:43.080 | for all of these launches that keep getting delayed,

02:34:45.940 | where you start thinking that there's certain things

02:34:48.160 | you do will control the weather.

02:34:49.480 | - My socks.

02:34:50.680 | Why am I wearing these socks?

02:34:51.880 | Just scrubbed again, you know, like, yeah.

02:34:53.640 | - You're lucky.

02:34:54.480 | You have to wear the same lucky socks,

02:34:55.800 | otherwise there's going to be bad weather.

02:34:59.120 | So the reason that I say this and why it's so difficult

02:35:01.160 | is they did a first full stack test in July of 2021.

02:35:05.880 | And the expectation was we're a month or two away

02:35:08.160 | from a launch.

02:35:09.520 | So like, realistically for 18 months,

02:35:11.840 | I've been in a purgatory thinking that we're a month

02:35:13.840 | or two away of an orbital launch.

02:35:15.800 | Now I did say, for the record, when that thing stacked

02:35:19.120 | and when a lot of speculation was saying,

02:35:20.960 | you know, a month or two, I was saying,

02:35:22.480 | I don't expect it to fly in 2021.

02:35:24.800 | You know, and I've been just saying,

02:35:27.040 | I just saw the amount of work that still needed to be done,

02:35:29.040 | like on the ground systems, the tanks, the launch mount,

02:35:31.960 | all the stuff I'm sitting there like,

02:35:33.000 | there's still a lot of stuff.

02:35:34.160 | They're gonna have to validate it.

02:35:35.040 | They're gonna have to test everything, every component.

02:35:37.440 | And, you know, people were like,

02:35:38.800 | how dare you say that even Gwen Shotwell,

02:35:40.680 | the president of SpaceX is saying Q3 of 2021.

02:35:43.480 | I'm like, okay, but like, I'm just,

02:35:46.440 | I'm not going to be surprised if it slips into 2022.

02:35:49.080 | And here we are at the beginning of 2023.

02:35:51.240 | And I think we're finally within like two months.

02:35:55.120 | I'm expecting, like I'm trying to keep my March

02:35:57.680 | and April as free as I can.

02:35:59.040 | We'll put it that way.

02:36:01.840 | - I love it.

02:36:03.400 | Actually, just in a small tangent on Gwen Shotwell,

02:36:06.200 | like what do you, from everything I know,

02:36:10.560 | she's an instrumental, a really crucial person

02:36:12.920 | to the success of SpaceX in running the show.

02:36:15.800 | She's the president, the COO.

02:36:19.360 | What do you know about her that sort of,

02:36:23.840 | the genius of Gwen Shotwell?

02:36:26.320 | - Man, my understanding is she's really the glue.

02:36:29.120 | You know, she's the glue to the tornado.

02:36:31.120 | Tornado comes in and then she comes around

02:36:34.840 | and just really executes on, and helps, you know,

02:36:39.560 | a famous story is that at some point Elon walked in

02:36:43.400 | or she sprinted into a meeting

02:36:45.200 | because Elon was actively trying to cancel Falcon Heavy,

02:36:48.440 | saying it's too far, like it's too much development,

02:36:51.040 | it's still too far away.

02:36:51.880 | And this is like, you know,

02:36:53.480 | this might've been like end of 2017 or something.

02:36:55.400 | And it flew for the first time in 2018.

02:36:56.920 | So we're talking like it's close to the end of development.

02:37:00.160 | You know, there's hardware being built, all this stuff.

02:37:02.080 | And Elon's literally in a meeting telling people

02:37:04.400 | they're gonna cancel it and we're gonna move on to BFR,

02:37:06.920 | or now Starship, and just go full steam ahead on that.

02:37:10.240 | And she runs into the meeting and reminds Elon,

02:37:12.480 | we have X amount of customers

02:37:15.000 | have already purchased a ride on Falcon Heavy.

02:37:17.440 | We can't delay that.

02:37:19.000 | You know, so it's that business sense of like,

02:37:22.240 | yes, it's great to innovate,

02:37:23.480 | but we also have to pay our dues

02:37:25.000 | and make the money to continue our operations.

02:37:28.120 | And I think she's just a lot better at,

02:37:30.640 | she has, I think she has such a great perspective

02:37:33.480 | on everything.

02:37:34.320 | It really seems like everything, she doesn't,

02:37:36.760 | I wish she did more interviews

02:37:37.840 | 'cause I would love to hear more from her.

02:37:40.160 | But man, like it just seems--

02:37:41.640 | - Hear that, Gwen?

02:37:42.640 | (laughing)

02:37:43.480 | - For both of us.

02:37:44.520 | - Yeah, she hasn't actually done that many interviews, right?

02:37:47.080 | - Not really, no.

02:37:47.920 | She's done like a TED Talk,

02:37:49.360 | a couple of little things here and there,

02:37:51.000 | but not really many interviews.

02:37:53.560 | And I would just love to hear like what,

02:37:55.640 | you know, what on a daily basis,

02:37:57.360 | like what is she doing to keep her head on

02:38:00.640 | and keep everything so organized?

02:38:02.520 | You know, it's, you know, yeah.

02:38:05.200 | My understanding is that she is absolutely integral

02:38:08.680 | and does just an insane amount of work at SpaceX.

02:38:11.720 | - Yeah, I mean, so it's the project planning,

02:38:14.440 | but also the, how the teams integrate together

02:38:17.400 | and the hiring and just the management of the whole thing.

02:38:20.640 | - I think it's a lot of it, honestly,

02:38:22.000 | even just the business,

02:38:22.840 | making sure the money's flowing

02:38:25.040 | in a positive trend, more or less, you know?

02:38:26.920 | That, yes, Elon's obviously a money guy,

02:38:28.880 | but he thinks, he's so, I think Elon is so risky.

02:38:32.440 | You know, he just loves to throw it all in

02:38:34.720 | that he leaves little margin for error.

02:38:37.080 | You know, he's been really lucky with rolling his dice,

02:38:40.120 | you know, especially like when he started SpaceX and Tesla.

02:38:43.320 | That was the ultimate roll of the dice.

02:38:44.640 | But I think she's a healthy balance to be like,

02:38:48.160 | well, here's our, you know, operations

02:38:50.920 | and now we can continue to do this

02:38:53.160 | without risking everything, you know?

02:38:54.520 | And Starship's close, let me be clear.

02:38:56.960 | Starship is close to risking everything already.

02:38:59.520 | It's just such a big, fast-moving,

02:39:02.080 | high-risk developmental program that like,

02:39:04.200 | I personally think, you know, SpaceX would probably be fine

02:39:07.800 | if they shut the doors on Starship

02:39:09.480 | and just flew Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy

02:39:11.160 | for the next 10 years,

02:39:12.200 | they would still be commercially valid.

02:39:13.600 | They could not spend another dollar

02:39:15.360 | on research and development.

02:39:16.200 | They could fire, I don't want them to,

02:39:18.080 | fire everyone involved in anything research and development

02:39:20.520 | and just ran operations on Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy

02:39:22.840 | and they would still be dominant for 10 years.

02:39:25.040 | And they would still have a business case

02:39:26.400 | and they'd still be fine.

02:39:27.960 | But they're all in, like all chips are pretty much,

02:39:32.040 | as many chips as possible are in for Starship.

02:39:35.160 | - And this, I don't know what else I could say.

02:39:40.240 | I've talked to a lot of great leaders.

02:39:45.080 | There's just not many people like Elon

02:39:46.720 | that would push for Starship.

02:39:48.220 | - When they're already as far ahead.

02:39:51.440 | - A very successful company.

02:39:53.000 | Sort of everyone doubted

02:39:55.960 | that it could be a successful company.

02:39:57.480 | It was so close to bankruptcy and failing.

02:40:00.120 | And then to take it into a financially viable,

02:40:03.080 | successful company, and just when you do,

02:40:07.000 | you take on a project that again risks everything.

02:40:10.020 | - Well, he already did this with Falcon 1 to Falcon 9.

02:40:13.480 | Like literally people were like, what are you doing?

02:40:16.420 | They basically signed over

02:40:17.860 | and were fully ramping up Falcon 9

02:40:20.440 | by the time they finally had their first Falcon 1 success.

02:40:23.360 | They had one more flight.

02:40:24.400 | They only flew Falcon 1 successfully twice.

02:40:26.640 | They flew it five times altogether.

02:40:27.720 | The fourth one was successful and they flew one more time.

02:40:30.020 | And anyone else out there would have been like,

02:40:33.020 | let's keep flying the Falcon 1.

02:40:34.960 | We have a working rocket.

02:40:36.720 | We can start making money and profiting.

02:40:39.640 | And already he was risking it all and saying, nope,

02:40:42.400 | we're going from Falcon 1 to Falcon 9

02:40:44.240 | was a huge, huge leap.

02:40:47.000 | I think it's at least as big as a leap from Falcon 1 to 9

02:40:51.240 | as it is from Falcon 9 to Starship

02:40:52.720 | or around relatively a similar leap.

02:40:55.480 | So it's just that same thing again.

02:40:56.800 | People are going, why are you leaping

02:40:58.640 | into this insane program and system and risk

02:41:03.180 | when you finally have this workhorse of a rocket

02:41:06.600 | that's so dominant in the industry,

02:41:09.200 | yet they're going 10X.

02:41:11.600 | - It so happens that you've been selected

02:41:15.800 | for the Dear Moon mission that will fly Starship

02:41:19.220 | once around the moon with nine people on board.

02:41:22.300 | You are one of those people.

02:41:25.360 | So just pause to take that in.

02:41:29.600 | Everything that we've been talking about,

02:41:34.160 | you will not just be reporting on,

02:41:36.000 | you will be a part of it.

02:41:37.500 | So tell me about the objective of this mission

02:41:41.400 | and how does it feel to be a part of it?

02:41:43.780 | - Well.

02:41:46.400 | Man.

02:41:50.600 | Yeah, it's basically, it's the Willy Wonka of space.

02:41:57.240 | Like a generous, a generous individual

02:42:03.160 | purchased a ride from SpaceX as early,

02:42:06.440 | at least as far as I know, the earliest I knew about it

02:42:09.040 | was February 27th, 2017.

02:42:11.120 | - Who's the individual?

02:42:12.520 | - Yusaku Maezawa, but at the time,

02:42:13.920 | I'm telling a story at the time we didn't know.

02:42:16.320 | Okay, great.

02:42:17.880 | So February 27th, 2017, a press release comes out

02:42:20.500 | from SpaceX saying someone purchased a ride

02:42:24.320 | through us around the moon.

02:42:26.680 | We're gonna fly someone around the moon.

02:42:27.840 | And at the time it was on a Crew Dragon capsule

02:42:29.400 | and a Falcon Heavy.

02:42:30.880 | It's like, wow.

02:42:31.800 | And that was enough.

02:42:32.840 | That little moment right there, that press release.

02:42:34.960 | It's the first time I'm like,

02:42:36.140 | I'm gonna make a YouTube video about this.

02:42:37.960 | And I stood up, turned on my camera,

02:42:40.200 | put on my, at the time, space suit.

02:42:42.720 | And I basically yelled at the camera for three minutes

02:42:45.480 | about someone's going around the moon.

02:42:47.520 | Fast forward to 2018, end of 2018 or near the end,

02:42:52.080 | they introduced, there was a SpaceX press conference.

02:42:54.960 | I'm there as a member of the press.

02:42:57.740 | I'm reporting on, we're going to meet this person

02:43:00.320 | that's going around the moon

02:43:01.720 | and come to find out, boom,

02:43:03.000 | they're going to be riding on Starship now.

02:43:04.820 | They changed from Falcon Heavy and Dragon.

02:43:06.680 | SpaceX is no longer going to do that.

02:43:08.040 | They're going to upgrade them basically to Starship.

02:43:10.460 | So instead of being in like a small tin can,

02:43:12.720 | they're in this giant, luxurious,

02:43:14.840 | mega rocket around the moon.

02:43:17.540 | And it comes out that this individual named Yusaku Maezawa,

02:43:20.280 | who is a Japanese billionaire, purchased this ride.

02:43:24.640 | And instead of inviting his friends and colleagues

02:43:28.360 | and whatever, whoever's family members or whatever,

02:43:31.280 | he decided that the most impactful thing he could do

02:43:34.040 | with this opportunity is invite more or less artists.

02:43:38.620 | And the original thing was like artists,

02:43:40.360 | journalists, a painter, an athlete,

02:43:43.500 | photographer, videographer, all walks of life basically.

02:43:48.560 | - When they said athlete, they thought of you.

02:43:50.400 | (laughing)

02:43:51.240 | - They're like, I know a guy.

02:43:53.400 | This guy rode rag by once.

02:43:55.080 | (laughing)

02:43:59.000 | And at the time, I was like, this is crazy.

02:44:02.000 | I can't believe this is gonna happen.

02:44:03.200 | And he had this vision of we're gonna find people

02:44:05.580 | from all around the world.

02:44:06.420 | I'm going to invite people from all around the world,

02:44:08.840 | from different walks of life, different trades.

02:44:12.200 | And I'm going to share this experience

02:44:14.040 | so that they can share it with the world

02:44:15.560 | and really have an impact much greater than any one country

02:44:19.220 | or any one individual or any set of military trained

02:44:23.800 | astronauts could do, offer up a new perspective.

02:44:27.400 | Beautiful.

02:44:28.240 | Literally, I mean, at the press conference, I cried.

02:44:30.280 | Like I had a couple of tears in my eyes.

02:44:31.600 | I was like, this is so cool.

02:44:32.800 | - We could just pause on that.

02:44:33.960 | So he goes by MZ.

02:44:35.560 | - MZ, yep.

02:44:36.400 | - How incredible is that?

02:44:39.080 | - It's, I'd like, I think it's,

02:44:43.240 | you often don't realize the importance of individuals

02:44:47.240 | in human history.

02:44:48.180 | Like they define because this could be,

02:44:51.240 | we talked about the importance of Elon in particular.

02:44:54.160 | Most of the work is done by large groups of people

02:44:57.120 | that are collective intelligence that we band together.

02:44:59.760 | But like these individuals can be the spark

02:45:04.440 | of the catalyst of that progress.

02:45:07.400 | And I mean, just this idea of getting not just civilians,

02:45:12.400 | which is already incredible,

02:45:14.000 | but civilians with a sort of an artistic flame

02:45:16.840 | that burns inside them, they're able to communicate.

02:45:19.480 | Whatever they do, are able to communicate something

02:45:22.040 | about that experience.

02:45:23.360 | And it's just a genius idea to spend quite probably

02:45:27.040 | a very large amount of money for that.

02:45:30.360 | I mean, it's, and that will be part of history.

02:45:35.280 | - Yeah, and it's easy these days for people to be cynical,

02:45:39.360 | especially about like space flight and wealthy individuals.

02:45:43.620 | But really, in my opinion, and maybe just the time

02:45:47.440 | I was just so couldn't believe this idea,

02:45:50.280 | I'm someone that has studied a lot about the Apollo program,

02:45:55.040 | the people that have been to the moon,

02:45:56.160 | and they're incredible individuals, incredible individuals,

02:45:59.120 | but they're so saturated with tasks,

02:46:01.720 | and they're military trained and often,

02:46:04.680 | that they didn't really have the luxury

02:46:06.680 | of just being able to soak in the experience

02:46:09.160 | of going around or to the moon

02:46:12.720 | and seeing the moon up close with your own eyes.

02:46:14.700 | Like that just psychologically has to be insane.

02:46:19.200 | And so to have this opportunity to be able to observe

02:46:23.080 | our closest celestial neighbor with your own eyes

02:46:26.040 | and your sole purpose is to soak it in and share it

02:46:28.760 | and communicate and create with the rest of our planet,

02:46:32.360 | like that to me is just beautiful.

02:46:34.860 | - So that is the objective of the mission.

02:46:39.680 | - That right there is the objective of the mission.

02:46:41.720 | - And how does it feel to be selected

02:46:45.680 | as one of the nine to do it?

02:46:48.080 | - It's a gradient.

02:46:50.720 | It's slowly, it's doing a few things.

02:46:53.640 | Since I've known it's become,

02:46:55.420 | I think the closer it gets, the more excited

02:46:58.960 | and the more nervous I get.

02:47:00.360 | - And the more real it becomes.

02:47:02.840 | - The more real it becomes.

02:47:04.120 | The announcement was a big,

02:47:05.720 | it just got announced at the end of 2022 publicly,

02:47:08.880 | who's involved.

02:47:09.720 | And so prior to that, I had each step

02:47:13.520 | of the selection process,

02:47:14.720 | there's a pretty comprehensive selection process

02:47:17.400 | with interviews and stuff.

02:47:18.680 | Each step, I'd try not to get my hopes up.

02:47:20.960 | And frankly, let me be clear,

02:47:22.720 | this was not something that I've always wanted to do.

02:47:25.640 | It's not like I'm out there,

02:47:26.800 | I didn't start doing YouTube videos

02:47:28.280 | 'cause I wanted to even go to space,

02:47:29.560 | like none of that.

02:47:30.960 | And I've said, hilariously, I've probably said

02:47:33.520 | dozens or hundreds of times on air,

02:47:35.680 | yeah, I don't ever wanna go to space.

02:47:37.040 | 'Cause it's not a driving force.

02:47:38.980 | It's not really a thing I even really truly pictured

02:47:41.240 | or let myself fantasize about, frankly.

02:47:43.960 | So each step of the selection process,

02:47:46.120 | I didn't really let myself dream about it too much

02:47:49.360 | or it would kinda chip away,

02:47:51.680 | like, oh my God, this is actually becoming more real.

02:47:54.000 | This is actually more and more of an opportunity.

02:47:55.400 | And I get equally more nervous too.

02:47:57.600 | Like, frankly, I've seen space flight stuff go wrong.

02:48:02.600 | I think about this stuff a lot.

02:48:06.000 | So like, yeah, I get more nervous,

02:48:07.880 | but I also get more excited about that opportunity.

02:48:09.720 | Like it's an opportunity that how can you pass?

02:48:12.040 | And I still have to actually stop, pause, think,

02:48:16.080 | and actually realize the reality

02:48:18.320 | that I am going to the moon,

02:48:21.200 | I'm going to see the moon up close,

02:48:23.680 | flying around the moon.

02:48:24.520 | I'm sorry, some people get mad when I say going to the moon

02:48:26.800 | since I'm not landing on it.

02:48:28.200 | But flying around the moon,

02:48:30.280 | seeing the far side of the moon with my own eyes

02:48:32.400 | and seeing the earth rise behind it.

02:48:36.360 | Yeah, it's going to, I just,

02:48:38.120 | I can't tell you what it's going to be like and feel like.

02:48:41.320 | - It's so epic.

02:48:42.720 | - But it's insane to me

02:48:43.920 | that like we're having this conversation

02:48:45.560 | and that that is my reality, you know?

02:48:48.360 | And that someone was generous enough

02:48:49.920 | to consider the option of sharing this

02:48:52.200 | with frankly strangers.

02:48:55.160 | And the process that they had for selecting,

02:48:58.240 | like how much thought and time

02:49:01.600 | went into the selection process is incredible.

02:49:03.720 | You know, they did a public call at the beginning of 2021.

02:49:07.240 | And so the teams involved in whittling it down

02:49:10.320 | from a million applicants,

02:49:11.680 | there's a million applicants that whittled it,

02:49:13.920 | and they got it down to eight crew members and two backups.

02:49:19.000 | Amazing people.

02:49:19.880 | I would have, you know,

02:49:21.560 | I don't know how they wound up where they did,

02:49:23.480 | but it's incredible.

02:49:24.800 | I feel very deep connection

02:49:26.480 | to everyone that's already involved.

02:49:28.760 | - What can you say about the crew?

02:49:30.120 | You've gotten the chance to meet them and talk to them.

02:49:32.200 | I know Steve Aoki is on the crew.

02:49:34.200 | Like, who else is there?

02:49:36.600 | So you are obviously the star athlete.

02:49:39.840 | Who else, in terms of the artists that are there?

02:49:42.880 | - So, oh man, we might just want to pull up,

02:49:45.000 | just so I don't totally butcher and forget anybody.

02:49:47.360 | But because so far I haven't actually had the chance

02:49:49.640 | to meet everyone in person.

02:49:50.720 | You know, so far a lot of this was done during the pandemic,

02:49:53.640 | but we've met through a couple of different things.

02:49:55.400 | We've had a couple of different times to get together.

02:49:57.880 | But so, so far I've not met Steve Aoki yet or Top.

02:50:01.600 | We've been on calls and stuff.

02:50:04.200 | I also have not yet met Dev Joshi,

02:50:07.160 | who is an actor from India.

02:50:09.000 | So yeah, Steve Aoki, American DJ and producer and musician.

02:50:13.880 | Top from South Korea is also a musician and a producer.

02:50:18.880 | - So this is all across the world.

02:50:20.120 | So like truly global, all different kinds of walks of life.

02:50:23.760 | - Yes. - All artists

02:50:24.600 | of different forms.

02:50:25.600 | - And Steve is Japanese.

02:50:28.240 | His parents are Japanese,

02:50:29.160 | but he, you know, born and raised in the United States.

02:50:32.160 | Yemi is a dancer and choreographer from the Czech Republic.

02:50:36.880 | Rhiannon is a fine art photographer from, well,

02:50:39.840 | England and Ireland.

02:50:41.160 | I guess she lives in both and kind of a bit of a,

02:50:44.000 | she's all over the place.

02:50:45.480 | Technically she's Irish, I guess.

02:50:47.120 | Tim Dodd, yep, that's me, from the United States.

02:50:51.320 | Then you have Kareem, who is from England

02:50:54.880 | and does also as a photographer and documentarian.

02:50:58.560 | Does a lot of work with oceanography and volcanoes.

02:51:02.720 | So he does really incredible work.

02:51:04.840 | Brendan Hall is a documentarian and filmmaker.

02:51:08.360 | Dev Joshi, sorry, Brendan is also from the United States.

02:51:11.640 | Dev Joshi is an Indian actor.

02:51:15.160 | I believe also, I believe he's also already been producing

02:51:18.120 | and things, he's very young.

02:51:19.120 | I think he's only like 19 or 20.

02:51:21.280 | And he's, I mean, he's been acting since he was like

02:51:23.760 | five years old or something.

02:51:24.840 | He's a Bollywood star.

02:51:26.720 | Like he is a star in India, which is really cool.

02:51:29.200 | - Right.

02:51:30.240 | - Caitlin Farrington from the United States

02:51:31.840 | is an Olympic gold medalist snowboarder.

02:51:35.800 | So she, believe it or not, is the athlete and not me.

02:51:38.920 | - Oh, all right.

02:51:39.760 | (laughing)

02:51:40.600 | - And then, and she's one of the back up crew members,

02:51:43.120 | as so is Miyu from Japan, who's a dancer.

02:51:47.120 | - That's amazing.

02:51:47.960 | I mean, it's such an interesting group.

02:51:49.560 | I mean, is there something else you could say about MZ?

02:51:52.640 | About Yusaku Maezawa?

02:51:53.480 | - Yeah, Yusaku Maezawa.

02:51:54.840 | So he's also a musician.

02:51:57.560 | So he was actually in like some kind of punk,

02:51:59.560 | hardcore Japanese bands in the early,

02:52:01.360 | in the '90s and stuff, in the early 2000s.

02:52:03.720 | He started a record company and distribution and sales

02:52:08.720 | ended up in fashion and owns one of the biggest

02:52:13.520 | fashion companies in Japan.

02:52:15.280 | And has become a fine art collector

02:52:17.160 | and just kind of a philanthropist.

02:52:19.120 | - And he's been out to space already.

02:52:20.760 | - He's already not only been to space,

02:52:22.680 | like he's been to the International Space Station.

02:52:25.360 | He's been on orbit and on the ISS.

02:52:27.360 | And so he, what's cool is like,

02:52:30.080 | there's talks of, frankly, to be honest,

02:52:33.520 | we still don't, I still don't know

02:52:34.400 | all of the details about this.

02:52:35.840 | We're not yet into training.

02:52:38.040 | I kind of always assumed prior

02:52:39.520 | that there'd be some professional astronaut,

02:52:41.320 | when they talked about in 2018,

02:52:42.560 | there's talks of we'll have a professional astronaut

02:52:44.720 | on board, but realistically now,

02:52:47.120 | like MZ is a trained astronaut.

02:52:50.400 | He has trained a lot, like six months plus

02:52:54.880 | to be able to fly on Soyuz.

02:52:56.680 | So as far as like, it's good to know for me

02:52:59.160 | that I have someone on the crew

02:53:01.520 | that has experience with spaceflight,

02:53:04.080 | has trained and has some knowledge on spaceflight as well.

02:53:06.760 | You know, that is an important aspect for sure.

02:53:08.960 | - So you made an excellent video

02:53:10.400 | about flying in a fighter jet

02:53:12.880 | that I think you mentioned may be relevant to the training.

02:53:16.760 | Is there some high level aspects to training

02:53:19.400 | that you anticipate that you might be able to speak to?

02:53:22.360 | - Yeah, so, you know, so far I think we can really lean

02:53:24.880 | on what has happened with the other, you know,

02:53:28.240 | commercial crew missions and in private missions

02:53:31.400 | like the Inspiration4 mission or Axiom

02:53:33.760 | where SpaceX flew individuals.

02:53:35.320 | They trained for about six months,

02:53:37.160 | a lot of like reading manuals and learning the spacecraft.

02:53:41.000 | - Are you gonna do like a Rocky IV montage or?

02:53:43.900 | - I hope I just get shredded.

02:53:46.000 | I hope it's physical, a lot of physical training.

02:53:48.320 | - And they're like, we didn't tell him to do it.

02:53:50.320 | He just seems to wanna fill himself shirtless in the snow.

02:53:55.160 | Doesn't make any, how is this relevant?

02:53:56.000 | - Punching meat, why is he always doing this?

02:53:58.240 | Can't get him to stop punching meat.

02:54:01.320 | So yeah, hopefully, realistically.

02:54:04.560 | - That's a manual reading, I like it.

02:54:08.600 | But there's a physical component to all of this

02:54:10.880 | and that's really, I mean, that's fascinating.

02:54:13.840 | It's also inspiring the sort of civilians can do this.

02:54:17.400 | That's really interesting.

02:54:18.920 | - Yeah, I mean, this is, and to me this represents,

02:54:22.160 | this and the other commercial space, you know,

02:54:24.840 | private spaceflight missions like this

02:54:26.080 | represent really a turning point, like truly an inflection.

02:54:29.360 | And again, it's easy for people to be cynical

02:54:30.980 | that, oh, you know, why are people wasting all this money

02:54:34.720 | doing spaceflight stuff?

02:54:35.680 | It's like, well, I'm sure some people

02:54:37.680 | were saying that same thing about airplanes

02:54:40.160 | and early aviation, going like, why are we,

02:54:43.560 | can't believe those people are wasting the government's,

02:54:45.520 | you know, funding these stupid planes and stuff.

02:54:48.120 | How's this ever gonna benefit me?

02:54:49.240 | And nowadays, like imagine if all the planes

02:54:50.960 | just stopped working.

02:54:52.520 | Like we'd freak out, it's like our economy would collapse.

02:54:55.440 | It would suck, you know?

02:54:56.680 | And it might be a long time before we get to that reality

02:54:59.880 | with spaceflight.

02:55:00.720 | But no, if spaceflight halted today, you know,

02:55:04.040 | space assets, all of our, you know, on-orbit assets,

02:55:07.520 | our life would be crippled.

02:55:09.240 | And I don't think people realize that.

02:55:11.160 | So it's already, we're already reliant on it.

02:55:13.240 | But now we're getting to the point where it's,

02:55:14.760 | we're really turning that corner

02:55:16.040 | where it's the average person alive today.

02:55:19.280 | You know, if you're born, you know, now, from now on,

02:55:22.680 | I think there's a real decent chance that by the time

02:55:25.160 | you pass, there's an opportunity to have flown in space.

02:55:28.840 | - Yeah, I mean, I, if I'm being honest,

02:55:31.320 | I still haven't lost the feeling of magic

02:55:33.960 | of flying in an airplane.

02:55:35.600 | I often catch myself thinking like, how is this real?

02:55:38.940 | How is, and like the contrast of this incredible thing

02:55:44.880 | that's incredibly safe, flying through the air,

02:55:48.480 | taking off and landing, while everyone else

02:55:51.480 | just looks bored, watching like, I don't know,

02:55:56.400 | some romantic comedy on their phone with wifi.

02:56:01.400 | - Yeah.

02:56:02.280 | - So it's just, it's like, the contrast of that is like,

02:56:06.680 | wow, we're incredible, we're incredible as a society.

02:56:11.480 | And it's like, we develop some amazing technology

02:56:15.880 | that improves almost immeasurably our quality of life,

02:56:19.760 | and then we take it for granted,

02:56:21.320 | and now still reach for the next thing.

02:56:23.760 | And the next thing in life becomes more beautiful

02:56:26.680 | and complex and interesting.

02:56:28.000 | And yeah, it's just, the same stuff will be happening

02:56:32.040 | with space travel.

02:56:34.560 | - Oh, it'll become mundane and boring at some point.

02:56:37.320 | - The tough thing about space travel, of course,

02:56:39.720 | you know, I don't even know if it's such a giant leap

02:56:43.520 | over airplanes, because airplanes are already incredible.

02:56:47.480 | But the tough thing with space travel is the destination,

02:56:50.560 | right, is the landing on whole other worlds,

02:56:54.880 | whether it's docking with different transport vehicles

02:56:58.000 | or the space station, or it's landing elsewhere.

02:57:00.800 | And it really is incredible.

02:57:03.440 | I think you mentioned, since there's artists,

02:57:07.360 | there's filmmakers and so on, and you're all of those,

02:57:11.320 | on top of being a great athlete.

02:57:14.720 | I don't know, I'll just stop the running joke at this point.

02:57:17.880 | But is there, have you thought about, just in general,

02:57:22.880 | we've offline talked about microphones

02:57:25.000 | and all the different ways to film space launch,

02:57:28.640 | yeah, rocket launches.

02:57:31.320 | Have you thought about the different options

02:57:33.000 | of how to capture this?

02:57:36.760 | Have you, have the team, have been brainstorming

02:57:39.920 | and thinking about this?

02:57:41.160 | Do you anticipate it being super challenging?

02:57:43.640 | 'Cause there's so many opportunities

02:57:44.800 | to sort of think of how to do this.

02:57:47.640 | - So one of the fun things to remember

02:57:49.360 | is that Starship is huge.

02:57:52.120 | Like its internal volume is,

02:57:54.480 | the pressurized volume on Starship

02:57:55.760 | is bigger than a 747's pressurized volume.

02:57:59.000 | And it can take 100 metric tons to anywhere

02:58:02.400 | with enough refueling.

02:58:04.040 | So we have, in theory, very little mass

02:58:07.440 | and volume constraints.

02:58:08.880 | Unlike prior, all other space flight missions ever,

02:58:12.040 | you're counting grams down to,

02:58:15.960 | and just really can't risk,

02:58:18.640 | you have very defined parameters

02:58:21.520 | on what you can and cannot do.

02:58:23.560 | We're going to likely have the luxury

02:58:25.640 | of being able to film and capture this

02:58:27.080 | in a way that's just never been done before.

02:58:29.000 | We won't be inhibited by mass

02:58:32.320 | and volume constraints like prior.

02:58:34.720 | So all that said and done,

02:58:37.400 | I'm hoping that we'll be able to just

02:58:39.720 | arm ourselves to the teeth

02:58:40.840 | with the absolute best cameras and equipment possible,

02:58:44.520 | backups on backups, and pre-wire,

02:58:48.080 | like pre-rig things.

02:58:49.760 | Starship is going to be a transportation system

02:58:52.960 | and it has, it's being built from the ground up.

02:58:56.320 | There's no reason why they can't

02:58:58.440 | put infrastructure in for cameras

02:58:59.960 | that are just housed in the vehicle.

02:59:01.720 | These are talks that I'm excited to have.

02:59:04.720 | 'Cause I really, ideally,

02:59:06.160 | one of the things I'd love to do,

02:59:07.960 | I'm going to be pushing really hard

02:59:09.120 | to actually try live streaming

02:59:11.240 | from inside during the launch.

02:59:14.800 | - During the launch, live stream from the inside.

02:59:17.640 | That would be incredible.

02:59:18.720 | - Wouldn't that be?

02:59:20.000 | - If that's possible to pull off,

02:59:22.480 | that's really, really incredible.

02:59:23.880 | There is the magic to the live stream

02:59:25.640 | because like that's real, that's right there.

02:59:27.800 | That would, the world would tune in.

02:59:29.880 | That would be truly inspiring, yes.

02:59:31.960 | - To me, that's one of those things,

02:59:33.800 | a lot of people ask why they aren't doing it.

02:59:36.040 | Of course, NASA and other individuals

02:59:37.840 | will have their reasons of why not.

02:59:39.680 | You know, there's obviously some technical hurdles,

02:59:41.360 | but now with Starlink and other capabilities,

02:59:44.440 | there's less hurdles.

02:59:46.480 | There's obviously some transparency reasons why,

02:59:48.760 | you know, and safety reasons

02:59:50.000 | why it might not be a great idea

02:59:51.560 | to live stream a risky rocket launch.

02:59:54.680 | You know, the Challenger, I think,

02:59:55.600 | put a pretty bad taste in our mouth

02:59:57.760 | as far as publicizing an event

02:59:59.880 | and having every student in the United States

03:00:02.360 | tune in to, you know, a tragedy.

03:00:05.800 | But that's something I'm pushing for really hard

03:00:08.400 | just because I think it could be magical.

03:00:10.280 | I think it could really connect with people

03:00:12.000 | in a way that hasn't been done before.

03:00:14.720 | - Speaking of Challenger,

03:00:16.120 | have you thought about the fact that you're riding

03:00:22.080 | a thing, as we've been talking about,

03:00:24.920 | that's a giant, explosive, powerful rocket?

03:00:29.920 | Have you thought about the risk of that,

03:00:36.200 | the danger of that?

03:00:37.880 | Have you contemplated your own mortality?

03:00:41.080 | - How could I not?

03:00:42.280 | You know, I've seen and felt

03:00:45.800 | four of these prototype vehicles blow up,

03:00:48.240 | you know, with my own eyes.

03:00:49.880 | I don't know if there's anyone else,

03:00:53.880 | you know, early days, some of the, you know,

03:00:56.600 | Mercury and Gemini astronauts watched failures of rockets

03:01:00.760 | and then got on them.

03:01:02.600 | I don't know of too many people

03:01:03.560 | that are dumb enough to do that, though,

03:01:04.960 | these days, this day and age.

03:01:07.480 | It's obviously, I will have to see

03:01:11.240 | a lot of successful launches

03:01:12.880 | and have to have a lot of confidence

03:01:15.400 | in the engineering, the data,

03:01:18.000 | that they've developed a safe system.

03:01:20.520 | 'Cause currently, the current iteration of Starship

03:01:22.760 | has no abort system, has no escape tower.

03:01:26.640 | So, you know, Dragon Capsule,

03:01:28.560 | which is currently flying people,

03:01:29.760 | has a launch abort system.

03:01:31.360 | It has Super Draco engines that,

03:01:33.600 | either by the push of a button

03:01:34.600 | or by the automatic triggering of the flight computer,

03:01:37.040 | can shoot the capsule off of the rocket in milliseconds

03:01:40.880 | and pull it safely away, get it far enough away

03:01:43.200 | that it can pull the parachutes and safely splash down.

03:01:46.040 | Starship, by all iterations I've ever seen,

03:01:50.080 | does not have that.

03:01:52.200 | The Space Shuttle also did not have that.

03:01:53.720 | So it's not absurd to not have an abort system.

03:01:56.360 | Like, it is, there is, you know,

03:01:59.760 | certain engineering principles that prove

03:02:02.160 | that that could be a completely valid thing.

03:02:04.200 | You know, the Space Shuttle flew 133 times

03:02:07.320 | fully successfully.

03:02:08.280 | It did have two failures,

03:02:09.680 | resulting in the loss of 14 lives.

03:02:11.400 | 85, or sorry, 98.5% success rate.

03:02:16.480 | Pretty, I mean, yeah.

03:02:19.160 | I've probably done things that are a lot riskier.

03:02:22.200 | I have raced motorcycles, drag raced motorcycles,

03:02:24.680 | and, you know, ridden like an absolute jerk

03:02:26.480 | on the streets on a motorcycle.

03:02:27.640 | I'm sure I've had a higher than a 98.5% survival rate,

03:02:31.960 | or lower than that, I mean, at some point.

03:02:35.120 | So it's, you know, yes, it's risky, it's scary.

03:02:39.880 | And I think about it a lot, a lot.

03:02:43.280 | It definitely is one of those things that I, you know,

03:02:46.320 | I will have to see.

03:02:47.760 | And I'm in no hurry for this to happen either.

03:02:50.520 | You know, personally, I'm in no hurry,

03:02:52.120 | because it's like, I would rather see this thing

03:02:54.760 | be developed and iterated and see 10, you know,

03:02:57.840 | or I was gonna say 10 dozen,

03:02:59.640 | but I'd be happy with a dozen fully successful,

03:03:02.480 | like, oh, we've got this thing totally nailed down,

03:03:05.440 | you know, before I get on it.

03:03:07.720 | But, and that likely is the reality.

03:03:09.920 | There will likely be a dozen or two or three launches,

03:03:12.400 | because just even to get to the moon on Starship,

03:03:14.280 | they have to refuel it in orbit.

03:03:16.260 | So it will get to Earth orbit basically empty

03:03:20.120 | and out of fuel.

03:03:20.960 | So I'll have to dock with a fuel depot,

03:03:23.600 | fill up, and then go to the moon.

03:03:25.760 | So just to even get that full, you know,

03:03:28.600 | we're already talking about, you know,

03:03:30.600 | a handful of launches.

03:03:31.640 | So there will be a lot of launches before we fly.

03:03:34.880 | - Would they do a test flight without humans on board

03:03:39.120 | that goes to the moon, or no?

03:03:40.920 | - I'm not sure.

03:03:41.760 | I'm not sure if they'll do that exact flight profile,

03:03:43.620 | but by then they will have already flown,

03:03:45.760 | most likely the Artemis III program

03:03:48.200 | will have flown a Starship variant to the moon

03:03:51.800 | that lands on the moon.

03:03:53.000 | So doing, at that point, you're pretty much,

03:03:57.140 | I would like them to test the heat shield

03:03:58.840 | at that entry velocity, though,

03:04:00.000 | 'cause it is, you know, it takes another,

03:04:04.000 | it's about 30% faster to get,

03:04:06.640 | like, you have to go 30% faster than the low Earth orbit

03:04:08.320 | to get out to a translunar injection.

03:04:10.360 | And although that only sounds like, oh, it's 30% faster,

03:04:12.920 | it's, you know, the reentry heating

03:04:15.680 | experienced by a vehicle goes up by velocity cubed,

03:04:19.480 | not squared, so, and not even, not linear.

03:04:21.680 | So it's not like if you go twice as fast,

03:04:22.840 | you get, you see twice as much heat,

03:04:24.280 | you know, 30% faster, 30% more heat.

03:04:26.600 | It's, and it's not squared.

03:04:27.920 | It's not go twice as fast, get four times as much heat.

03:04:30.320 | It's go twice as fast, get eight times

03:04:32.520 | as much heat on reentry.

03:04:34.840 | So 30% faster on reentry is actually

03:04:37.280 | a really, really big deal.

03:04:38.760 | So I would love to see that be tested.

03:04:41.880 | You know, there's certain things

03:04:42.720 | that I would love to see milestones

03:04:43.680 | that I would love to see tested out

03:04:44.860 | and proven before I get on board.

03:04:47.180 | But at the end of the day, I really do believe

03:04:50.520 | that just like Falcon 9 and the success of that,

03:04:52.920 | that they're going to push it and get all the kinks out

03:04:56.960 | well before anyone's on top of it.

03:04:58.480 | Nowadays, Falcon 9 and Dragon is, you know,

03:05:00.640 | arguably the, one of the safest, most reliable

03:05:04.480 | and best rides you could take to space.

03:05:07.080 | - Are you afraid of dying?

03:05:09.220 | - Yeah, yeah.

03:05:11.560 | - Is this one of the first times you get to, you're young.

03:05:14.320 | - Yeah.

03:05:15.140 | - Have you gotten a chance to think about death

03:05:17.000 | as one of the first times you've really contemplated it?

03:05:21.760 | - I mean, yeah.

03:05:23.700 | I mean, like I said, I've had dumb moments on motorcycles

03:05:28.660 | where I kind of saw, you know, like,

03:05:30.820 | I am going to smash into this thing at 120 mile an hour.

03:05:34.460 | - So you've had moments when you realized

03:05:36.180 | it could end just like this.

03:05:37.380 | - Yes.

03:05:38.220 | - Where you literally, and I have,

03:05:40.500 | for most of my adult life, had dreams of falling

03:05:45.420 | and hitting the ground and it just all,

03:05:47.660 | you get a ring in your ears, it all goes black.

03:05:49.340 | And in my head, I go, oh shit, that was it.

03:05:51.460 | - Have you seen a therapist about this or?

03:05:53.500 | - Uh-uh.

03:05:54.340 | - I wonder what it means.

03:05:55.300 | (laughing)

03:05:56.300 | - So I've, and--

03:05:57.980 | - I'm sure there's a Freudian interpretation

03:05:59.740 | somewhere in there.

03:06:00.660 | That I'm going to also apply to my dating life.

03:06:03.660 | No, the joke is, the running joke continues.

03:06:07.020 | Okay, so, I mean, it's fascinating in general,

03:06:12.020 | as I hope we'll talk about in the early days of space flight

03:06:15.100 | that there is, the task of reaching out to the stars

03:06:20.100 | is a fundamentally risky one.

03:06:22.260 | You have to take risks, and of course,

03:06:23.660 | there's really rigorous safety precautions and so on,

03:06:26.580 | but it's still a risk.

03:06:27.900 | - Well, and I think like most people,

03:06:30.740 | for me, the idea of dying isn't so much about myself,

03:06:33.940 | it's about those affected by it, you know?

03:06:36.180 | My loved ones, my family, my girlfriend, my friends.

03:06:40.540 | Obviously, I don't want to have this be

03:06:43.180 | a traumatic experience for anybody.

03:06:45.700 | It's already gonna be hard.

03:06:46.540 | Like, it's already, I know, my mom gets,

03:06:49.140 | my parents and family and friends are very supportive,

03:06:52.040 | and my parents are all about it, of course,

03:06:56.500 | but my mom is also very emotional, too.

03:06:59.020 | So, speaking of athletes, my brother-in-law's actually

03:07:02.980 | been on "American Ninja Warrior" two seasons,

03:07:06.060 | phenomenal athlete, and even just when he competes,

03:07:08.620 | my mom gets so emotional, like,

03:07:10.060 | she can't even hold it together seeing that.

03:07:12.380 | So, what's it gonna be like when she sees her son

03:07:14.060 | get on top of a skyscraper and ascend

03:07:17.420 | on a column of flames into the heavens?

03:07:19.100 | Like, that's going to be very difficult, you know?

03:07:22.520 | And I've taken them out, they've seen "Star Race"

03:07:27.300 | and they've seen "Starship," they've seen a couple launches.

03:07:29.820 | - I don't know if that's gonna make him feel better.

03:07:31.500 | (laughing)

03:07:33.620 | - Exposure therapy, I guess.

03:07:34.540 | - Exposure therapy, okay.

03:07:36.080 | Have you had that conversation with them about this?

03:07:39.940 | Like, before agreeing to join?

03:07:44.100 | I mean, was that, what the, was that,

03:07:46.580 | or is it one of those things like,

03:07:48.480 | you just, you don't have that conversation?

03:07:54.740 | - I didn't have that conversation.

03:07:55.580 | - I suppose it's understood that there's a love,

03:07:56.780 | there's a passion here.

03:07:58.420 | - And realistically, I'm not,

03:08:00.700 | I'm going to be convinced and statistically convinced

03:08:05.980 | that this is relatively safe.

03:08:08.200 | You know, like, again, in the 99s, percent safe.

03:08:11.660 | Again, there's things that people do every day

03:08:15.160 | that are less safe than this, you know?

03:08:17.540 | - Like you riding a motorcycle.

03:08:19.180 | - Again, yeah, riding a motorcycle,

03:08:20.180 | doing wheelies at over 100 mile an hour, not--

03:08:22.140 | - You did wheelies over 100, what?

03:08:25.780 | All right.

03:08:28.420 | - I'm not a smart guy always, okay?

03:08:29.900 | Formation flying in the fighter jets

03:08:33.300 | was likely a more dangerous thing

03:08:35.780 | than what I'll be doing in space flight.

03:08:42.380 | - So as surreal as it is, we're talking about you

03:08:46.000 | flying around the moon.

03:08:49.320 | Let's rewind and talk about the origin story.

03:08:53.640 | What's the origin story of Everyday Astronaut?

03:08:56.180 | - I used to be a professional photographer.

03:08:59.040 | So from 2008 until the end of 2016,

03:09:02.160 | that was my income, was photography full-time.

03:09:05.280 | - Like you were an Instagram model

03:09:06.480 | and took butt pictures of yourself?

03:09:08.360 | - Instagram fitness model, obviously.

03:09:10.440 | - Obviously.

03:09:11.860 | - Now I did a lot of weddings.

03:09:14.860 | I shot 150 weddings all around the world.

03:09:17.660 | - So subjects, all kinds of material,

03:09:19.300 | like did you do portrait also?

03:09:21.340 | - A lot of portrait work

03:09:22.180 | and then just random commercial things

03:09:24.060 | like food and beverages for businesses

03:09:26.520 | or wheelchair ramp company, I shot their product.

03:09:30.780 | You know, it's random,

03:09:31.980 | whatever a professional photographer does

03:09:33.820 | in Cedar Falls, Iowa.

03:09:35.340 | - When did you fall in love with photography

03:09:37.660 | with a visual medium?

03:09:39.060 | Do you remember?

03:09:39.900 | - Yeah, I do actually remember.

03:09:41.100 | I grew up drawing constantly.

03:09:45.100 | I was the weird kid that I would bring a sketch pad

03:09:49.180 | to the restaurants,

03:09:50.020 | like every restaurant when I was growing up

03:09:51.900 | until I was like 18, 19,

03:09:53.420 | I literally would just sit there and draw

03:09:54.820 | or waiting for food.

03:09:55.660 | And my parents like fostered that.

03:09:56.820 | They would, you know,

03:09:58.540 | and I'd be the weird kid,

03:09:59.860 | but I'd be engaging and talking,

03:10:01.060 | but I'd be sitting there drawing.

03:10:02.740 | And I was always obsessed with realism

03:10:05.100 | and like recreating and visualizing things.

03:10:08.700 | And so when I got my hands on a camera,

03:10:10.860 | it was actually my dad's old Pentax

03:10:12.340 | that I first shot on a film camera

03:10:15.020 | and developing the film.

03:10:16.260 | I didn't personally develop it,

03:10:17.220 | like, you know, getting the film back,

03:10:18.520 | back in those days.

03:10:19.480 | You know, I just was like so excited about the idea

03:10:23.440 | that I had this visual thing that I saw with my own eyes

03:10:27.700 | and now I can stop time and capture it

03:10:30.260 | and show it to other people.

03:10:32.020 | Just kind of like, to me,

03:10:32.860 | that was like the ultimate form of realism

03:10:34.820 | was like literally showing you the photons basically

03:10:38.260 | that affected this film.

03:10:41.060 | And so, I mean, I was 19 when I got my first digital SLR

03:10:45.260 | at Canon 20D and started shooting.

03:10:48.760 | And yeah, I just, I fell in love with it.

03:10:51.900 | It became like, I got a job at a camera store

03:10:54.020 | and, you know, basically all my extra money

03:10:56.060 | went into buying everything that I could at the time.

03:10:58.700 | And I only worked there for about exactly a year

03:11:00.940 | before I went into pursuing photography full-time.

03:11:03.220 | And I basically was shooting weddings

03:11:05.620 | so that I could travel and pay, like, you know,

03:11:07.900 | afford to be able to do some big trips every year

03:11:11.340 | and develop some kind of, you know, portfolio of traveling.

03:11:14.620 | And not necessarily like, not for, you know,

03:11:18.300 | I guess Instagram wasn't much of a thing at the time.

03:11:19.940 | It was really just, I liked making big prints

03:11:21.980 | and having them displayed and that kind of stuff.

03:11:25.820 | And pretty soon-

03:11:27.020 | - Are you still a Canon guy?

03:11:28.660 | You still a Canon elitist?

03:11:30.380 | - No, no, I moved around.

03:11:32.780 | I did Sony for a bit.

03:11:34.260 | I still kind of shoot mostly Canon glass,

03:11:36.540 | but adapted to either Sony, like lenses,

03:11:39.820 | sorry, like Canon lenses.

03:11:41.420 | - Look at you.

03:11:42.340 | What do you think about these things that I'm using?

03:11:46.460 | Sony a7 IV.

03:11:48.500 | - Great.

03:11:49.420 | - It's great, see, yeah.

03:11:50.820 | It's, I've been, you know, I Googled around

03:11:54.620 | just trying to find a camera that can do video

03:11:57.660 | and photography pretty well.

03:11:59.620 | And obviously going with just like generic lenses,

03:12:03.700 | prime lenses, I resisted everything.

03:12:06.020 | My whole journey with these camera thing,

03:12:07.620 | I'm trying to figure stuff out,

03:12:09.140 | is like prime lenses seem so stupid.

03:12:11.900 | So prime lenses is like a fixed zoom thing.

03:12:14.660 | It's like, why?

03:12:16.340 | 'Cause I remember I was going to like Ukraine

03:12:18.580 | and thinking it's similar, like,

03:12:21.540 | yeah, very similar to space flight.

03:12:24.420 | But you're very constrained

03:12:25.900 | because you're going into an unknown environment.

03:12:28.140 | You go into a war zone, you go into a front,

03:12:30.580 | you don't know what, like you don't know anything.

03:12:32.900 | And there's like a little suitcase you have to like see,

03:12:34.980 | figure out like, how do you film this?

03:12:36.540 | What's robust?

03:12:39.100 | What gives you like a good image

03:12:40.860 | versus the flexibility versus the weight?

03:12:43.420 | 'Cause weight is important there.

03:12:44.460 | You have to think about like,

03:12:46.020 | can you really bring like a bunch of zoom lenses

03:12:48.100 | and all that kind of stuff.

03:12:49.260 | So I had to learn really quickly, but yeah.

03:12:51.380 | It's a whole journey that you've already been on,

03:12:54.700 | but it's nice to have a beginner like me,

03:12:56.940 | like to explore that.

03:12:59.620 | I think there's a nice thing,

03:13:02.900 | just like as we've been talking about

03:13:04.340 | with the beginner's mind,

03:13:06.060 | to not let equipment get in the way of like,

03:13:11.060 | what your vision is of what a thing should look like.

03:13:14.940 | Sometimes like, especially if you're a professional

03:13:18.260 | videographer, photographer, cinematographer,

03:13:21.500 | whatever you call it,

03:13:22.820 | you can like fetishize equipment too much.

03:13:25.860 | You could get so much equipment.

03:13:27.660 | And I've interacted with that

03:13:28.660 | 'cause I've been trying to learn from other people

03:13:30.340 | that have so much more experience than me.

03:13:33.020 | I think their advice is often like,

03:13:35.420 | pushing a lot of equipment versus like the final thing.

03:13:42.180 | Like how do you create the art of it?

03:13:44.580 | 'Cause to me, even photography is just like storytelling.

03:13:49.380 | And so like a lot of the discussion to me that I enjoy,

03:13:54.380 | especially talking to creative people,

03:13:56.460 | is like the final story.

03:13:58.780 | Like how, and I've learned, you know,

03:14:00.940 | like light, light is a weird thing.

03:14:04.940 | Like it's so interesting.

03:14:07.100 | It's so interesting how you can create emotion with light.

03:14:10.860 | Like with a little, you can take a phone

03:14:14.940 | and like you light your face in different ways

03:14:17.380 | and like it changes the emotion.

03:14:19.780 | It's so weird.

03:14:21.060 | I'm like, holy shit.

03:14:23.780 | 'Cause like that's the conversation I wanna have.

03:14:26.620 | People give me advice how to light a scene

03:14:28.460 | and all that kind of stuff is great.

03:14:30.060 | But the reality is that a little bit of light

03:14:33.620 | in a different direction,

03:14:34.860 | you have to understand how that changes.

03:14:37.100 | - The contour on your face and everything.

03:14:39.660 | - And the expression that your face can,

03:14:41.700 | the expression that could be effectively communicated

03:14:47.060 | under different lighting conditions.

03:14:49.380 | And then like the mystery of like having some of your face

03:14:53.660 | in darkness and some not,

03:14:55.660 | or when you can only see the eyes and not the face,

03:14:58.900 | when the background is visible or not.

03:15:00.860 | I mean, yeah, it's all just like this interesting art form

03:15:05.860 | that can be so powerful when you're telling a story.

03:15:09.100 | - Well, and what's fun for with me with photography

03:15:11.500 | and rockets, they're both like the ultimate story

03:15:13.860 | of compromise.

03:15:14.860 | 'Cause when you start learning about photography,

03:15:16.100 | you learn about how the aperture affects both your exposure,

03:15:18.980 | but also your depth of field, higher shutter speed,

03:15:21.060 | affects both your exposure, your depth of field,

03:15:23.100 | how the medium format camera versus a crop camera affects,

03:15:27.700 | everything is a compromise and price versus performance.

03:15:30.660 | You're like, there's always a compromise.

03:15:32.740 | You're always literally doing like a trade study

03:15:34.700 | of what can I afford?

03:15:36.000 | What's my outcome?

03:15:36.880 | Like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

03:15:38.140 | How fast is the autofocus or whatever?

03:15:40.680 | Same with rockets.

03:15:41.540 | Like there's a million choices and every single one of them

03:15:45.060 | affects every single thing.

03:15:46.440 | So there's always all these trades and it's so cool

03:15:48.500 | that you can see the same, totally different outcomes

03:15:52.320 | based on the same like requirements.

03:15:53.940 | You know, like do X, then here's how we're gonna do it.

03:15:56.940 | And, you know, two teams of people

03:15:58.580 | will come up with wildly different things.

03:16:00.740 | - When did you fall in love with rockets?

03:16:03.980 | - So yeah, so the story kind of keeps going for me.

03:16:06.980 | So I was doing-

03:16:07.820 | - Sorry to interrupt.

03:16:08.640 | (laughing)

03:16:10.580 | - Can't talk photography, man.

03:16:11.700 | We'll go down a deep rabbit hole there.

03:16:14.340 | So it ended, you know, through all this,

03:16:18.360 | doing a lot of weddings, I was already getting saturated

03:16:20.460 | and feeling like I'm not being as creative.

03:16:23.140 | You know, you can only shoot them so many weddings

03:16:25.140 | before you're like, well, now we do this pose,

03:16:26.980 | this pose, this pose.

03:16:27.820 | You know, even if like they're amazing places,

03:16:29.420 | like, you know, in front of a castle in Germany or something

03:16:31.980 | I'm still like, well, it's the end of the day,

03:16:33.700 | I'm not being very creative, you know?

03:16:37.140 | So I remember craving like some projects.

03:16:41.500 | And so I was sitting at my friend's coffee shop

03:16:45.540 | in my hometown in Cedar Falls, Sidecar Coffee.

03:16:48.740 | And I'm sitting on this red couch

03:16:50.260 | and I see this article from I think Gizmodo.

03:16:52.980 | And it said, you could own the flight stick

03:16:56.500 | of an Apollo command module.

03:16:58.140 | And I knew enough to know what that meant,

03:17:00.700 | but that's really about the end of my space knowledge.

03:17:03.260 | And so I clicked on it, the click bait got me.

03:17:04.900 | Like, I'm like, oh yeah, I'm gonna see if, you know,

03:17:07.300 | and see that the minimum bid was like $250,000.

03:17:09.940 | And I'm like, okay, no, I can't own the Apollo joystick,

03:17:12.860 | you know, but it got me on this website called RROction.

03:17:16.060 | And so I started scrolling through that,

03:17:17.420 | looking for things that hadn't been bid on.

03:17:19.460 | And they had like, you know, at the time

03:17:20.500 | they were doing a huge space auction.

03:17:22.740 | And so I'm looking for things just out of curiosity, fun.

03:17:25.220 | These are cool, like starting to really, you know,

03:17:27.580 | like I said, I like space,

03:17:28.820 | but I wasn't like in love with it or anything,

03:17:30.660 | but I'm very just seeing all this stuff.

03:17:34.340 | I'm like, this is so cool.

03:17:35.340 | Look at all this old history stuff.

03:17:37.500 | Ended up seeing, there's an article for a VMSTK-44

03:17:41.940 | flight suit, high altitude flight suit

03:17:46.780 | that came from the Soviet Union and looks, you know,

03:17:50.060 | it's like a MiG fighter jet, fighter pilot suit,

03:17:52.860 | very similar to like the SR-71, like kind of pumpkin suit,

03:17:56.180 | semi-pressure suit with a full helmet.

03:17:59.980 | I mean, it looks like a space suit, you know,

03:18:02.020 | for all intents and purposes, it's kind of like a space suit.

03:18:05.460 | And I just bid on it, you know, I bid like, I think $325.

03:18:09.780 | And next thing you know, like it arrives at my door.

03:18:12.380 | And from that point on, like literally I got it out,

03:18:17.020 | I immediately tried to put it on.

03:18:18.900 | And the first thing that I do is almost die in it

03:18:21.220 | because I closed the helmet down on myself and locked it

03:18:25.180 | and didn't know how to unlock it.

03:18:27.140 | So I'm literally, and so as soon as I seal it up,

03:18:30.980 | I'm realizing I can't breathe.

03:18:32.820 | I'm going to run out of air.

03:18:33.780 | So luckily like there's a hose, you know,

03:18:35.860 | kind of that long hose thing that would normally plug

03:18:37.420 | into an air supply, had a little plug on the end of it.

03:18:39.580 | So I just unplugged it and was able to temporarily breathe

03:18:42.020 | through the hose until I figured out the locking mechanism.

03:18:44.980 | So there was my almost, that was my mortality rate thing

03:18:47.780 | right there, so that was probably above a 98

03:18:50.860 | or below a 98.

03:18:51.700 | - So you're there panicking inside for a few seconds.

03:18:55.260 | - Already reading like my premature obituary,

03:18:57.780 | like idiot dies alone in space suit in his living room.

03:19:00.420 | You know, like just imagine,

03:19:02.540 | that would be like Darwin award for sure, for sure.

03:19:05.740 | So I get the space suit and it kind of-

03:19:10.820 | - That's literally take my breath away.

03:19:12.980 | - You should feel bad for that one.

03:19:17.340 | You introduced Creed to me,

03:19:19.540 | so you should feel bad about that one.

03:19:22.460 | Stars wide open.

03:19:23.500 | - Okay, so I ended up like the space suit kind of like

03:19:29.220 | more or less haunted me, 'cause it kind of just,

03:19:31.060 | it sat in like my living room for a long time

03:19:32.980 | and I didn't know what to do with it.

03:19:34.620 | And I actually had a friend who is also a photographer,

03:19:37.140 | wanted to do like a photo.

03:19:38.540 | He was just kind of taking pictures randomly.

03:19:39.820 | He's like, "Hey, bring your space suit over.

03:19:41.060 | We'll do a picture."

03:19:42.300 | It's like, all right, you know, I walk across the street,

03:19:44.020 | like literally lived across the street, Taylor.

03:19:45.940 | And I put the space suit on, I took this funny picture,

03:19:48.500 | I'm like, "This is awesome."

03:19:49.500 | And I got a lot of like fun out of like creating a character,

03:19:51.980 | you know, of everyday astronaut,

03:19:53.140 | or at the time, I guess I didn't know, an astronaut.

03:19:56.260 | And then that kind of just continued.

03:19:57.780 | I was like thinking of more and more funny situations

03:20:00.420 | where I could have this astronaut on earth

03:20:02.540 | doing mundane everyday things

03:20:04.940 | and came up with the name everyday astronaut.

03:20:06.820 | And originally it was just literally a photo project,

03:20:09.180 | like this whole art series of an astronaut

03:20:12.260 | doing these things, these funny, whimsical,

03:20:15.100 | you know, silly mundane things.

03:20:16.500 | But I was researching a lot about like,

03:20:18.540 | you know, I was trying to hide Easter eggs.

03:20:19.700 | Like I was gonna hide in like the, you know,

03:20:21.900 | the echocardiogram of Alan Shepard, you know,

03:20:25.980 | like his first flight into space

03:20:27.700 | and Photoshopping that into pictures.

03:20:29.460 | And like, you know, doing all these little like facts

03:20:31.660 | about space flight,

03:20:32.580 | but they're just hidden little elements in these photos.

03:20:35.020 | And man, doing that, I just fell in love with it.

03:20:37.220 | I just was going over every little detail

03:20:39.460 | that I could learn.

03:20:40.380 | I just couldn't stop learning.

03:20:42.420 | And I was getting excited 'cause I was like,

03:20:44.220 | I could be teaching people about all this exciting stuff

03:20:46.940 | and all the cool things people figured out,

03:20:48.780 | you know, 40 years ago, 50 years ago.

03:20:51.260 | And was trying to portray that through images on Instagram.

03:20:54.140 | And, you know, it took me a little while,

03:20:55.980 | but eventually I realized, you know,

03:20:57.660 | on Instagram, your retention rate,

03:20:58.800 | you're lucky if you get like two seconds

03:21:01.400 | of someone looking at an image, you know,

03:21:03.020 | or maybe nowadays 60 seconds

03:21:04.620 | of a quick little Instagram short or something.

03:21:07.460 | But yeah, I--

03:21:10.580 | - It doesn't give you a chance to really teach

03:21:12.540 | to explore a little topic that you felt,

03:21:15.340 | like you felt the curiosity about the thing.

03:21:16.900 | There's so much to learn here.

03:21:17.900 | This is so beautiful.

03:21:18.740 | - There's so many opportunities to have a light bulb

03:21:20.900 | go off for someone and be like, this is awesome.

03:21:23.660 | And so, yeah, I think I started,

03:21:26.020 | so by the end of 2016, like throughout 2016,

03:21:28.420 | I realized I wanna be done doing photography as a profession

03:21:32.360 | and I want to pursue everyday astronaut.

03:21:33.980 | But I didn't know what it meant yet.

03:21:35.340 | I just knew like I had this thing, you know,

03:21:37.580 | and at that time I'd been doing it for roughly two years

03:21:39.980 | and had, you know, seen, I don't know,

03:21:41.900 | like 50,000 Instagram followers or something.

03:21:43.940 | I thought like I could just be a full-time influencer now,

03:21:46.540 | you know, like just go around taking pictures of myself

03:21:49.500 | in a space suit and doing public appearances

03:21:52.140 | and write a children's book or something.

03:21:53.420 | I don't know.

03:21:54.260 | I don't know what this thing is.

03:21:55.540 | I'll figure it out, you know?

03:21:57.140 | And so, basically I gave myself like a runway of one year,

03:22:01.580 | of 2017 of like, I'm gonna throw stuff at the wall

03:22:04.140 | and see what sticks.

03:22:05.940 | So I was doing like Twitch streams.

03:22:07.340 | I was playing Kerbal Space Program,

03:22:09.460 | which is like a video game,

03:22:11.300 | like a physics-based rocket building simulation game,

03:22:14.860 | but it's also like, it's fun and silly

03:22:16.340 | 'cause you're not playing with like humans.

03:22:18.020 | You're playing with these little Kerbal,

03:22:19.660 | like little alien guys and it's fun and silly.

03:22:23.260 | You know, I was streaming that on Twitch and doing things

03:22:25.660 | and posting some of those things onto YouTube.

03:22:28.580 | But finally, like I said,

03:22:29.420 | it actually happened to be February 27th, 2017

03:22:32.700 | when SpaceX had that announcement

03:22:34.420 | that they're flying someone around the moon

03:22:35.380 | that I'm, I gotta tell people about this

03:22:38.140 | and stood there and made my first like

03:22:40.660 | produced YouTube video.

03:22:42.340 | And I didn't want it to be over three minutes.

03:22:44.980 | I was afraid that'd be way too long for YouTube.

03:22:47.460 | And I got it down to like, I don't know,

03:22:49.100 | two minutes and 40 seconds or something.

03:22:51.140 | And that video-

03:22:51.980 | - Were you wearing the-

03:22:53.340 | - I was wearing the space suit.

03:22:54.740 | - The space suit. - Yep, yep.

03:22:55.820 | And very like horrible audio.

03:22:58.220 | It looks like it was color graded by a seven-year-old

03:23:00.660 | with a tan marker or something.

03:23:02.300 | Like it just looks terrible.

03:23:03.700 | Sounds horrible.

03:23:04.540 | I'm yelling.

03:23:05.740 | No one's happy.

03:23:07.220 | But the video, you know, did relatively well.

03:23:11.020 | Like I had no followers on YouTube.

03:23:12.660 | Like I had, you know, maybe 102 or something.

03:23:15.260 | - Is the video still up?

03:23:16.340 | - Yeah.

03:23:17.180 | - That's great.

03:23:18.020 | I'll go to watch it after this.

03:23:18.860 | - It's so cringy.

03:23:20.700 | And as it should be, you know,

03:23:22.020 | your first video should be terrible.

03:23:23.740 | If it's not terrible,

03:23:24.580 | then you spent too long trying to make it.

03:23:26.380 | So the thing that clicked for me is

03:23:30.400 | I had very little audience

03:23:32.140 | and all of a sudden that video kind of took off,

03:23:34.280 | you know, relatively.

03:23:35.120 | I think it got like 10,000 or 12,000 views.

03:23:36.980 | And I was like, holy crap,

03:23:38.140 | that's way more engagement than I'd have.

03:23:40.180 | - Famous.

03:23:41.020 | - I'm famous now.

03:23:42.260 | 10,000 people, that's almost my whole town.

03:23:45.020 | - First of all, that is kind of crazy.

03:23:46.540 | Like 10,000 people is crazy.

03:23:48.300 | It's crazy.

03:23:49.140 | Like if you had 500 people attend a thing that you do,

03:23:53.020 | that would be like, you're like a rockstar.

03:23:56.300 | It's crazy.

03:23:57.460 | - We lose perspective.

03:23:58.500 | - Yeah, we lose perspective very quickly.

03:24:00.460 | - Very quickly.

03:24:01.300 | So I'd made another video.

03:24:03.640 | This one I spent more time on.

03:24:04.940 | And I had, before photography,

03:24:07.100 | actually I used to do like wedding videography too.

03:24:09.500 | So I had done my woes with videography

03:24:11.700 | and weddings and stuff.

03:24:12.780 | I hated video.

03:24:13.980 | Like I thought video was the worst,

03:24:15.820 | took so long to edit.

03:24:17.180 | You know, and I love photography.

03:24:18.020 | It's like, boom, you snap it, boom, post,

03:24:20.060 | you're done in an hour, you know?

03:24:21.580 | And video, it's like this whole cumbersome thing.

03:24:23.420 | So I thought I'll never do video.

03:24:25.540 | And here I was making this long,

03:24:27.100 | what at the time seemed like a long,

03:24:28.620 | seven minute long YouTube video

03:24:30.180 | about how the Falcon 9 lands.

03:24:32.380 | And again, like that one I posted it

03:24:34.100 | and actually it did really bad.

03:24:35.420 | And I was really upset.

03:24:36.260 | I'm like, I spent two weeks on this stupid video,

03:24:39.460 | you know, worked really hard scripting and blah, blah, blah.

03:24:42.380 | And then it, you know, had like a thousand views

03:24:44.340 | or something, it did much worse than the first video.

03:24:46.460 | And I was so upset.

03:24:47.860 | And I kind of like was ready to keep throwing

03:24:49.700 | more spaghetti at the wall

03:24:50.540 | to see what's gonna stick for everyday astronaut.

03:24:52.740 | And I think it was like a month or two later,

03:24:54.380 | I happened to like, you know,

03:24:55.460 | check the analytics on YouTube and all of a sudden,

03:24:58.380 | that video like kind of took off.

03:25:00.440 | And it got like 40 or 50 or 60,000 views or something.

03:25:02.900 | I was like, no way.

03:25:04.660 | And it just kept, you know, that just honed it in more

03:25:06.500 | that like, okay, YouTube will bring a bigger,

03:25:09.060 | like bring an audience to me,

03:25:10.860 | as opposed to like Instagram,

03:25:11.780 | I had to find and, you know,

03:25:14.180 | try to get the audience to come to me.

03:25:15.580 | And this was like, they were gonna do the legwork.

03:25:17.720 | So if I make decent videos,

03:25:20.340 | and I realized like really the fun thing for me

03:25:22.300 | was explaining a topic that was scary and intimidating

03:25:25.500 | and try to make it, you know, fun and engaging.

03:25:28.000 | - What were some of the struggles

03:25:29.660 | of building up a YouTube channel?

03:25:31.940 | So for people who don't know, once again,

03:25:33.980 | (laughing)

03:25:35.020 | you have a YouTube channel called Everyday Astronaut,

03:25:38.260 | and there's some incredible videos on it.

03:25:39.580 | So what was the,

03:25:40.740 | what was the some of the challenges

03:25:42.380 | and the struggles in the early days?

03:25:44.420 | - Definitely like at first,

03:25:45.660 | you're not gonna find your own voice.

03:25:47.020 | And I know like even, you know,

03:25:48.120 | Jimmy talked to you about that,

03:25:50.140 | like how your first video is gonna suck.

03:25:51.540 | You don't, you're not gonna be yourself.

03:25:52.780 | You're gonna be nervous.

03:25:53.620 | You're gonna be, you're not gonna know the tone, the pace,

03:25:55.780 | the things that are interesting.

03:25:57.780 | And actually, originally I had constraints.

03:26:00.280 | I was really worried about making a short video

03:26:02.580 | 'cause I thought there's no way anyone's gonna watch

03:26:04.300 | a three minute video and then a seven minute video.

03:26:06.620 | And pretty quickly I realized like YouTube as a whole

03:26:09.140 | was kind of changing,

03:26:10.340 | but also there's always that historic backbone

03:26:13.340 | of like 22 minutes of programming

03:26:16.380 | for a 30 minute spot on TV.

03:26:18.540 | Like no one goes over 22 or 44 minutes,

03:26:21.020 | you know, if you have the full hour special or whatever,

03:26:22.660 | like that is the absolute limit

03:26:24.780 | of what a human being can watch, you know,

03:26:27.980 | basically it was what I thought.

03:26:29.860 | And slowly I just kept playing and getting longer

03:26:32.400 | and actually more and more in depth into the topics.

03:26:35.400 | And instead of getting like pushback, you know,

03:26:36.920 | and being like, this is so boring.

03:26:38.680 | I realized as long as it's like,

03:26:40.060 | as I was walking people through the whole step,

03:26:42.360 | you know, giving them all the context they need,

03:26:44.640 | they're happy to get as deep into the weeds

03:26:46.640 | as I can get them.

03:26:47.880 | And so that just kind of fed the snowball

03:26:49.840 | just kept rolling and I'm like, all right.

03:26:51.920 | And you know, before you know it,

03:26:53.160 | I'm making hour long videos,

03:26:54.640 | like an hour long is more or less a normal length

03:26:57.520 | on my channel for a produced video.

03:27:00.100 | And they're really, really in depth,

03:27:03.140 | but I love like that process of trying to preemptively

03:27:06.260 | kind of guess what the questions might be.

03:27:08.700 | And, you know, part of that is like,

03:27:10.520 | we do like script read-throughs with like our supporters

03:27:13.660 | and do like cuts of videos and people,

03:27:16.140 | a decent amount of people see it before it goes public.

03:27:18.660 | And we get those questions out of the way, you know,

03:27:20.300 | we get those people asking the questions.

03:27:22.220 | And then I love nothing more than trying to, you know,

03:27:25.700 | get all those questions answered by the end of the video.

03:27:28.500 | - A question about being a creator on YouTube,

03:27:32.480 | that could be a challenging psychological aspect to it,

03:27:35.400 | which is like, you might invest a huge amount of your effort

03:27:39.260 | into a thing and it doesn't receive much attention at all.

03:27:44.200 | And, you know, there's something about YouTube

03:27:46.760 | and in general social media

03:27:49.000 | that makes you feel really crappy about that.

03:27:51.280 | If you let it, if you really look at the numbers,

03:27:54.960 | it's very, very difficult not to pay attention to that.

03:27:57.600 | I mean, that's the reason why I turn off numbers

03:27:59.680 | on my interface for stuff that I've created.

03:28:04.180 | 'Cause I just see it having a negative effect on your mind.

03:28:07.140 | But even then, it still has an effect.

03:28:09.360 | Your epic video on the history of Soviet rockets

03:28:15.600 | comes to mind, and we'll talk about that in a second,

03:28:19.860 | but it's called, people should check it out,

03:28:22.800 | the entire Soviet rocket engine family tree.

03:28:25.520 | So that's something you've researched for two years.

03:28:28.120 | - Yeah.

03:28:29.160 | - Right, you put your heart and soul into it.

03:28:30.960 | There's a lot of passion, there's a long journey,

03:28:33.720 | and I think about like an hour and a half video.

03:28:36.360 | Is there like, is there challenges?

03:28:41.160 | Is there like, how difficult is that

03:28:44.280 | to put so much of yourself into a video

03:28:46.760 | and it maybe not do so well?

03:28:49.160 | - Yeah, that's the struggle for sure, honestly.

03:28:53.680 | Especially as we grow, I try to make better

03:28:57.520 | and better videos, which means hiring more and more people

03:29:00.200 | to do higher end animations and spend more time editing

03:29:03.240 | and shooting and scripting.

03:29:05.120 | But at the end of the day,

03:29:07.200 | it still can't be just losing money.

03:29:10.160 | And I have videos that definitely lose a lot of money

03:29:13.180 | because I hire 3D artists and stuff.

03:29:17.920 | And I was so certain, the Soviet rocket engine video,

03:29:21.440 | I thought was just purely gonna be a passion project.

03:29:24.040 | I honestly was like, if it ever crosses a million,

03:29:27.080 | it's a home run.

03:29:28.240 | - And is it, does it cross like a couple of million now?

03:29:30.760 | - I think it's a little over two, which is insane to me.

03:29:34.240 | Like I just really thought this was more something

03:29:36.880 | just to put on the shelf as a resource, almost for myself,

03:29:39.240 | you know, like just to kind of have that knowledge bank

03:29:41.260 | and something I've always wanted to straighten out

03:29:43.140 | in my own head and kind of know the history

03:29:45.800 | a little bit better.

03:29:46.880 | But come to find out, like it took a while,

03:29:48.840 | you know, it was a slow turn.

03:29:49.920 | - Well, I remember when you first released it

03:29:52.520 | and that's when I watched it.

03:29:53.980 | I remember like, this has so few views.

03:29:58.080 | - Yeah.

03:29:58.900 | - I remember being just sad.

03:30:00.040 | Like I was like sad about the state of the world

03:30:03.840 | because I know how much love you put into it,

03:30:05.760 | how like, how much, I don't know.

03:30:08.280 | To me, for some reason that somehow would directly connect

03:30:11.760 | to huge views.

03:30:13.880 | But see, you know what made me sad is like,

03:30:16.640 | if you use a different thumbnail or a different title

03:30:18.960 | that could affect the popularity.

03:30:21.120 | - I know.

03:30:21.960 | - And then I just could imagine the torment

03:30:23.800 | you're going through.

03:30:24.840 | What if I use the different thumbnail?

03:30:27.320 | It's that Jimmy, the Mr. Beast torment,

03:30:30.640 | like just a slightly different title

03:30:34.040 | or slightly different, it could change everything.

03:30:37.000 | - I have videos, ironically, the last like,

03:30:40.240 | I don't know, five videos I've produced

03:30:41.880 | are horribly flopping.

03:30:43.760 | Like some of my worst videos I've ever made.

03:30:45.680 | - Statistically.

03:30:46.840 | - The interesting one is like the,

03:30:48.880 | you summarize, incredible video.

03:30:51.240 | You summarizing that people should go watch

03:30:53.680 | about all the awards video for 2022.

03:30:57.040 | Like all the cool stuff that happened in 2022.

03:30:59.400 | I remember that not being that popular.

03:31:00.880 | There's a few ones recently that are not that popular.

03:31:03.120 | - Like riding in a fighter jet.

03:31:04.320 | I thought that was gonna be easy, like one or two million.

03:31:08.360 | I don't know if I've paid the flights off to go there.

03:31:11.600 | You know what I mean?

03:31:12.440 | Like in that video.

03:31:13.360 | - It makes no sense.

03:31:14.880 | - And frankly, here's, at the end of the day,

03:31:18.400 | I realized like I have lately,

03:31:20.920 | especially the last like year or two,

03:31:22.040 | kind of disconnected from that aspect of it.

03:31:24.200 | I'm super fortunate.

03:31:25.200 | I have very generous like Patreon support

03:31:27.440 | and people that can help me sustain to produce.

03:31:29.440 | - People go support, support Tim on Patreon.

03:31:32.760 | - Well, it's that, but as you know, as a creator,

03:31:35.600 | like that is what keeps the lights on it

03:31:37.440 | and makes it so it, you know, I can go this deep.

03:31:39.600 | Like if I didn't have that,

03:31:40.520 | if I had to rely solely on like YouTube ad revenue,

03:31:43.960 | I mean, I would just, they'd be super different videos.

03:31:46.680 | I wouldn't spend as much time researching

03:31:48.600 | 'cause I'd just, you know,

03:31:49.440 | they'd just be more glossed over.

03:31:50.880 | It's like a hurry to churn them out

03:31:52.560 | so I can keep the machine going.

03:31:54.480 | And I have this incredible freedom

03:31:57.400 | to really dive into a topic.

03:31:59.360 | Like a video that I've been working on now

03:32:00.560 | for almost three months is how to start a rocket engine.

03:32:03.600 | And let me tell you, it's not as easy as one might think,

03:32:06.960 | or I guess as it is as difficult as you might think.

03:32:09.760 | I mean, it's an insane topic.

03:32:11.880 | - And what do you mean by start?

03:32:12.920 | You mean like the ignition?

03:32:13.960 | - Yeah, like how do you physically get them running?

03:32:15.760 | You know, like there's all these, you know,

03:32:18.000 | the valves and the turbine,

03:32:20.520 | the turbine, you know, that we were talking about earlier,

03:32:22.200 | like that has to run on the pumps,

03:32:23.600 | but it itself is powering the pumps.

03:32:25.840 | So how do you get that, like chicken and egg,

03:32:27.400 | how do you get that thing started?

03:32:29.300 | You know, there's tons of, it's so cool.

03:32:31.480 | There's so many ways.

03:32:33.000 | And so for me, you know, that required reading a lot

03:32:35.800 | and talking to people that know a lot more than me

03:32:38.560 | and just really trying to make sure I understand

03:32:42.000 | enough of it to explain it and try to weave a narrative,

03:32:44.520 | you know, and so that video is three months in the making.

03:32:47.180 | We're still probably another two or three weeks out.

03:32:50.080 | And it's, I don't expect, I mean,

03:32:51.280 | I think this one will do relatively well, you know,

03:32:53.740 | but in the grand scheme of YouTube,

03:32:55.200 | like still child's play, you know.

03:32:57.660 | But I'm okay, and I'm okay with that.

03:33:01.040 | I'm at that point actually where I am okay with that.

03:33:04.440 | It still stings and I'm more worried about just like,

03:33:07.280 | can I continue to do it at this quality and at this level

03:33:11.320 | if it's losing money, you know what I mean?

03:33:13.040 | So it's, there is a trade-off

03:33:14.880 | and I am kind of having to navigate that.

03:33:17.360 | - But you have sort of the depth of the impact you have

03:33:22.360 | is a thing that YouTube can't give you numbers on,

03:33:27.240 | but it's a really important thing to sort of remember

03:33:30.600 | that it's really not just about the YouTube numbers

03:33:32.920 | or it's for people like you that are basically educating

03:33:39.280 | and revealing the brilliance in a technology

03:33:43.720 | that will make humans a multi-planetary species

03:33:47.900 | and give hope to millions of young minds

03:33:51.400 | that will build that future.

03:33:53.200 | I mean, that's immeasurable.

03:33:54.680 | That's not just the views.

03:33:56.060 | (Lex laughing)

03:33:57.760 | But you know, it's, that's really important

03:34:00.680 | to sort of remember as you're creating it.

03:34:03.520 | That's something I try to think about as well.

03:34:06.940 | So like views.

03:34:09.120 | - Yeah, and that becomes more.

03:34:11.200 | - Don't matter.

03:34:12.480 | - I realize that more and more like every day,

03:34:14.360 | you know, the more the channel matures,

03:34:16.800 | the more I realize the importance of it

03:34:18.880 | as an overall mission, as opposed to like,

03:34:21.480 | you know, in the first year or two,

03:34:22.520 | it's a rat race of growth and popularity

03:34:25.880 | and all that kind of stuff, you know?

03:34:27.020 | And you feel that, you feel that it's a driving force.

03:34:29.400 | These days, not so much,

03:34:30.880 | just because that will wear you out very quickly.

03:34:33.840 | - So back to the Soviet rocket video, the epic video,

03:34:37.400 | probably the most epically researched video you've done.

03:34:40.920 | I mean, it's like, it's truly an epic video.

03:34:44.320 | So what, again, called the entire Soviet

03:34:48.680 | rocket engine family tree.

03:34:51.200 | Took you two years to research.

03:34:53.360 | What are some fascinating things you've learned

03:34:55.800 | about the history of rocket engines

03:34:57.720 | in the Soviet Union and in general

03:35:02.200 | through the process of making that video?

03:35:05.240 | - The coolest thing to me is how it's this weird blend

03:35:10.240 | for the Soviet Union went through

03:35:12.800 | an insane iteration process and made so many engines.

03:35:17.840 | Like I didn't even touch, you know,

03:35:20.320 | any like maneuvering thrusters or missile engines.

03:35:22.400 | Like I only really dealt with main propulsion engines

03:35:24.960 | on orbital rockets and there's still

03:35:26.760 | way too many to talk about.

03:35:27.880 | I mean, it's still dozens and dozens of engines.

03:35:30.480 | And I could have gone deeper into this, which is hilarious.

03:35:34.720 | They iterated so much, made a new engine

03:35:36.800 | for just at the drop of a hat,

03:35:39.000 | yet they still also like did super primitive things.

03:35:43.320 | You know, they physically are still today

03:35:46.040 | lighting the main combustion chambers

03:35:47.880 | of the Soyuz engines of the RD-107 and RD-108

03:35:50.520 | with essentially matchsticks.

03:35:52.120 | Like they literally stick a T-shaped thing

03:35:55.000 | up into the chamber and have a pyrotechnic in it

03:35:58.960 | that ignites the actual propellants

03:36:00.960 | in the combustion chamber.

03:36:02.200 | It's not the most elegant solution in the world.

03:36:04.640 | They're still using that.

03:36:05.600 | So they went from like the whole spectrum of like,

03:36:09.000 | it's a mixture of like make it better, faster,

03:36:11.280 | harder, stronger, gooder, all the way around

03:36:13.880 | to also if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

03:36:15.840 | It's like it employs all of the above.

03:36:18.680 | - So it's like it's a lot of innovation,

03:36:21.520 | but also they use duct tape.

03:36:23.040 | - Yes. - So like all of it together.

03:36:24.960 | - Yes, that's exactly like,

03:36:27.120 | that's exactly the way to put it.

03:36:28.480 | And they did things that are insane.

03:36:30.680 | They developed a full flow stage combustion cycle engine.

03:36:33.360 | This engine, had it been used,

03:36:35.480 | I mean, it would have put the F,

03:36:36.480 | it was same relative size as the F1 engine on the Saturn V,

03:36:40.120 | like in that same category, way up there of like,

03:36:42.840 | you know, 6.7 like mega newtons of thrust

03:36:45.600 | or something around, and the F1 is like seven or something.

03:36:48.360 | It's huge, yet way more complicated, way more efficient,

03:36:53.360 | way just better engine in that sense,

03:36:56.720 | as far as performance goes, yet it never flew.

03:36:59.560 | It never left the stand.

03:37:01.080 | You know, they never built the rocket around it.

03:37:03.640 | The N1, which was the most powerful rocket

03:37:07.080 | to have flown so far to date,

03:37:08.720 | like it never made it through its first stage burn.

03:37:13.120 | It all four attempts failed spectacularly.

03:37:15.640 | And yet it had so much technology on it

03:37:18.000 | that was still unrivaled today almost.

03:37:20.560 | Like finally now we're beating it,

03:37:22.640 | the NK-33s that they developed for that rocket.

03:37:24.880 | Like finally today, we're to the point of like,

03:37:27.800 | having better engines than they built in the 60s.

03:37:30.680 | - Yeah, what stands out to you

03:37:32.320 | from the N1 family of rocket engines?

03:37:35.720 | - Well, it's interesting because the N1

03:37:38.160 | was the Kudsnetsov Design Bureau,

03:37:40.560 | and he was actually an aircraft manufacturer.

03:37:42.480 | So he was one of the first people outside

03:37:44.040 | of kind of the missile and rocket program.

03:37:46.960 | You know, he had all these other bigwigs

03:37:49.000 | kind of in the other OKBs

03:37:50.800 | that were developing missiles and rockets.

03:37:52.520 | And then all of a sudden here comes Nikolai Kudsnetsov,

03:37:55.000 | who had never developed a rocket engine.

03:37:58.560 | And so his first attempt at a rocket engines

03:38:00.520 | was the NK series, NK-15, NK-33.

03:38:03.360 | And they were amazing.

03:38:04.560 | They were brilliant.

03:38:05.520 | They were these wonderful closed cycle oxygen rich engines

03:38:08.640 | that were awesome.

03:38:11.280 | They were awesome engines.

03:38:12.440 | And that were, you know, because,

03:38:14.640 | I love that because his direct boss,

03:38:19.640 | since he wasn't necessarily in the aerospace,

03:38:21.800 | you know, or in the, I guess,

03:38:23.280 | the rocket missile defense world,

03:38:25.440 | he didn't have to, at the fall of the Soviet Union,

03:38:29.040 | he didn't have to give away all of his things

03:38:31.040 | to the same people as the other people.

03:38:33.360 | So he hid, you know, like 80 of his engines in a hangar.

03:38:37.240 | And then we still literally use them in the United States.

03:38:42.240 | We used altogether, I think it was like eight or 10 of them,

03:38:45.240 | repurposed them as, they're called AJ-26s

03:38:48.560 | in the United States.

03:38:49.400 | But like, we still were flying Soviet rocket engines

03:38:51.920 | in the 2000s because they were better

03:38:54.800 | than engines we are building today.

03:38:57.440 | Like that's, to me, that's my favorite fact

03:39:00.720 | about the N1 rocket engines is that they're still that good.

03:39:04.360 | That they were the best choice for,

03:39:06.400 | at the time, orbital sciences.

03:39:08.520 | - Some of the culture that engineering has led

03:39:12.400 | to these things that still work, it's incredible.

03:39:15.680 | You said that the RD-171 is one of the coolest engines

03:39:18.880 | ever made, why is that?

03:39:20.680 | - Yeah, so one of the fun things about the Soviet engines

03:39:24.680 | is it'll look like, a lot of their engines

03:39:26.360 | look like multiple engines 'cause you see multiple nozzles.

03:39:29.160 | You see multiple combustion chambers and you would think,

03:39:31.640 | well, obviously, the nozzle is the engine, right?

03:39:35.320 | But what they actually would do, the real heart

03:39:39.520 | and the real power of the rocket engine

03:39:42.040 | actually comes from the turbo pumps,

03:39:43.320 | comes from the pumps themselves.

03:39:45.400 | And as we talked about earlier, that includes the turbine

03:39:48.280 | and the actual pumps that flow the propellant

03:39:51.600 | into the chambers.

03:39:53.360 | And so, the Soviet Union was incredible at developing

03:39:57.760 | these closed cycle, high powered turbo pumps.

03:40:00.560 | But if you try to scale the combustion chamber too big,

03:40:03.960 | you end up with what's called combustion instability.

03:40:07.280 | You have such a large surface area of crazy flames

03:40:12.280 | and combustion happening, they can get these weird pockets

03:40:16.120 | and oscillations and frequencies and they just couldn't

03:40:19.120 | make big combustion chambers, they never figured it out.

03:40:21.400 | They never quite, well, they did actually kind of figure it

03:40:23.480 | out, but they didn't like it.

03:40:25.680 | So, they ended up just shrinking down and having small

03:40:28.940 | combustion chambers and just splitting the pipes basically.

03:40:32.120 | Instead of one fuel pump going into, or one pipe going

03:40:35.320 | into one combustion chamber and one oxidizer pipe going

03:40:38.400 | into one combustion chamber, they'd split it off

03:40:41.040 | into two or four combustion chambers and kind of spread

03:40:45.520 | that work around so they didn't experience

03:40:47.840 | this combustion instability.

03:40:49.700 | So, the RD-171 is still to date the most powerful

03:40:53.360 | rocket engine ever built.

03:40:55.140 | The turbo pump is insane, I don't even remember how many,

03:40:58.120 | you know, like 200,000 horsepower or something comes out

03:41:00.440 | of that turbo pump, in order to flow the amount of propellant

03:41:03.660 | necessary at those rates and at those pressures

03:41:06.020 | into the combustion chamber.

03:41:06.860 | So, it has four chambers and it's just an absolute marvel

03:41:10.740 | of engineering.

03:41:11.640 | And yeah, and then the cool thing too is specifically

03:41:14.980 | the RD-171, it's engine, all four of those nozzles

03:41:18.880 | can actually pivot and rotate.

03:41:22.120 | I just now, as I'm explaining this, realized that has to mean

03:41:26.580 | that they have joints, like flexible joints,

03:41:31.100 | in the high pressure pump lines in order to,

03:41:34.980 | like I never, this is the realization I'm having right now,

03:41:37.860 | 'cause normally you put the gimbal above the turbo pump,

03:41:41.040 | like the mount where the engine swivels,

03:41:43.460 | so that you have low pressure coming from the tanks

03:41:46.020 | into the pumps.

03:41:47.180 | And then you just have a straight, you know, fixed pipe

03:41:50.080 | flowing into the engine, so you don't have to bend

03:41:51.660 | that pipe and have it be dynamic.

03:41:53.720 | If they had the four chambers moving independently

03:41:56.780 | from each other, that means those four chambers

03:41:58.940 | all had to have a flexible high pressure pipe going,

03:42:02.300 | which I don't even, I don't know if that's,

03:42:04.920 | why am I just now realizing this?

03:42:06.360 | - Yeah, so there's engineering challenges with that.

03:42:08.820 | - Insane, I never even thought that was a thing

03:42:11.680 | you would ever, could do, honestly.

03:42:13.840 | I would, I gotta look into why and how and what and where.

03:42:16.240 | - Yeah, I wonder why that design decision was made.

03:42:19.320 | - So the easier thing to do normally

03:42:21.080 | is you would keep those nozzles fixed,

03:42:23.040 | then affix, like say the Soyuz engine,

03:42:25.400 | the RD-107 and 108, they have affixed

03:42:27.680 | main combustion chambers and they use these little

03:42:30.360 | Vernier, or some people got mad at me for saying

03:42:32.800 | Vernier and Vernor engines that swivel themselves

03:42:35.960 | and those provide your control authority.

03:42:38.460 | So the main chambers stay fixed and then you get

03:42:40.640 | your roll and your pitch and your yaw

03:42:42.280 | out of auxiliary thrusters.

03:42:44.480 | - By the way, did you get anything wrong in that video?

03:42:47.160 | That people told you about?

03:42:48.360 | - Yeah, I got a few things, yep.

03:42:50.320 | First off, we had a graphic error where we actually,

03:42:53.440 | we copied and pasted a lot of our After Effects projects.

03:42:56.700 | So our nuclear engines, one of them on screen

03:42:59.200 | says that it runs on RP-1, it does not.

03:43:01.240 | It has basically all the wrong stats.

03:43:03.040 | We just didn't catch it in the edit,

03:43:04.480 | that we literally copy and pasted it.

03:43:06.600 | I say it right on screen, but the,

03:43:08.960 | in the voiceover, but on screen it's wrong.

03:43:11.320 | The other thing, and I'm excited to ask you about this.

03:43:13.560 | - Uh-oh.

03:43:14.400 | - First, and I spoke with a lot of

03:43:16.160 | Russian-speaking individuals.

03:43:17.360 | We had a lot of research assistants

03:43:18.800 | that were reading and blah, blah, blah.

03:43:20.640 | I tried really hard to learn how to pronounce

03:43:23.080 | Sergei Karelyov's name.

03:43:26.100 | And I'm still gonna say it wrong no matter what I,

03:43:29.360 | but my understanding, and from listening to native speakers,

03:43:33.240 | is closer to Karelyov than it is Korolev.

03:43:37.160 | - Yeah, definitely.

03:43:38.120 | Sergei Pavlovich Karelyov.

03:43:40.720 | - See, I will never say it that perfectly,

03:43:42.360 | but I know it's not just Korelev.

03:43:44.160 | I mean, again, the English translation of it,

03:43:47.600 | likely I should have just said Korelev

03:43:49.320 | and said I'm saying it the dumb America way, but.

03:43:53.320 | - But you rolled your R, comrade.

03:43:56.160 | (laughing)

03:43:58.160 | Excellent, so let me just ask you in a difference

03:44:02.240 | in the culture, because you've researched so many rockets

03:44:04.560 | from so many different eras, the Saturn V,

03:44:06.760 | and just everything you're seeing now.

03:44:09.400 | Are there some interesting differences,

03:44:11.500 | especially when you look at the space race,

03:44:13.540 | between the Soviet rocket engineers

03:44:18.200 | and efforts versus the American?

03:44:20.580 | - The, there's, I mean, there's definitely huge,

03:44:25.960 | huge cultural changes, and the fun thing is

03:44:28.480 | that they kind of spawned from the same,

03:44:31.120 | like they have the same starting place.

03:44:32.880 | Both, you know, the Soviet rocket engines and Americans

03:44:36.200 | all came from the Nazi V-2 rocket and the A-4 engine.

03:44:40.220 | Literally, physically spawned from that,

03:44:42.020 | because at the fall of, you know, at the end of World War II

03:44:45.040 | we took a handful of German scientists

03:44:46.760 | and the Soviets took a handful of German scientists,

03:44:49.160 | and they both got their own a little bit,

03:44:51.440 | some blueprints here and there,

03:44:52.680 | and the others got some blueprints.

03:44:53.760 | So we literally have the same, it's a weird thing,

03:44:55.960 | where we're starting from the same, like, thing

03:44:58.000 | and letting two divergent, you know,

03:45:00.400 | divergent paths go crazy on their own development.

03:45:03.220 | So it's really fun to see the cultural differences.

03:45:05.740 | One of the things the United States did is

03:45:07.240 | they really would kind of take an engine

03:45:10.120 | and just perfect it more or less,

03:45:12.920 | and then, and not really evolve that much.

03:45:15.640 | Like, they, I don't know, and I don't know why.

03:45:18.680 | I actually need to do a history lesson

03:45:20.280 | on all of the US engines, but it's literally like,

03:45:23.080 | as far as orbital class engines before now,

03:45:26.720 | I mean, it's like a dozen or two, you know,

03:45:29.080 | it's a tenth the amount of the Soviets,

03:45:32.840 | and the Soviets just literally made up a new engine

03:45:35.600 | every time they had a new, like, they went,

03:45:38.840 | and it was like a completely different engine.

03:45:40.880 | - Yeah. - So I just, yeah.

03:45:42.960 | - I wonder if there's some aspect to the culture,

03:45:44.960 | and I don't want to overstate it,

03:45:46.400 | but there is more of a safety culture,

03:45:49.080 | I think, in the United States.

03:45:51.160 | And I think if you care about safety,

03:45:53.400 | or rather, like, you have, you're more risk-averse,

03:45:58.400 | so you care about safety more,

03:46:00.480 | about the value of human life and the risk taken there,

03:46:03.080 | that you will iterate less.

03:46:06.400 | So I think the Soviets,

03:46:07.920 | especially in the early aspects of the program,

03:46:09.960 | I don't want to overstate this,

03:46:12.160 | some of it is just through stories,

03:46:14.880 | you just hear anecdotes,

03:46:16.640 | they're more willing to take risks.

03:46:19.360 | - Yeah. - Risk with human life,

03:46:20.740 | risk with spacecraft.

03:46:22.320 | - For example, the first orbital space flights

03:46:25.840 | from the Soviet Union, the cosmonaut had to eject

03:46:29.000 | out of the capsule and parachute to a landing.

03:46:31.200 | - Yes. - That's not very well known,

03:46:33.720 | and it wasn't, they hid that even from history

03:46:36.480 | as best they could at first,

03:46:37.680 | because they were slightly ashamed

03:46:39.200 | that they couldn't have a full recovery system

03:46:40.760 | with their spacecraft.

03:46:41.920 | They could physically recover it,

03:46:43.120 | but they wouldn't have been able to recover

03:46:44.160 | the cosmonaut in one piece.

03:46:46.060 | So instead, they had them just eject out of the thing

03:46:49.400 | and parachute to safety, like, that's insane.

03:46:52.320 | And so there definitely was some extra risks,

03:46:56.640 | but also a freedom to just push things to the limits

03:46:59.340 | and try everything.

03:47:00.560 | They threw all the spaghetti on the wall.

03:47:03.420 | It's funny that most people probably don't even know

03:47:05.840 | the first person in space in America,

03:47:07.960 | and obviously everybody knows that.

03:47:09.800 | It's like, it's kind of interesting how the space race,

03:47:16.120 | and even World War II, even like the history books,

03:47:22.200 | you ask most Americans,

03:47:23.880 | they think that America won World War II.

03:47:28.560 | Like, without America, like,

03:47:31.700 | the real heroes of World War II is America.

03:47:34.820 | You ask British people, they say,

03:47:37.900 | and everybody has a pretty good justification,

03:47:40.500 | like, without Britain, without Churchill,

03:47:43.660 | Hitler would have taken over the world.

03:47:46.220 | And I think probably the strongest case

03:47:49.860 | is the Soviet Union case,

03:47:51.460 | that they're the ones that won the war.

03:47:53.340 | The reason it's the strongest case

03:47:54.740 | is where most of the fighting happened.

03:47:57.300 | Most of the death happened.

03:47:59.260 | Most of the destruction.

03:48:00.900 | But everyone has their perspective.

03:48:02.620 | And certainly in the space race,

03:48:04.300 | the great accomplishment is the first man on the moon,

03:48:08.460 | from the US perspective.

03:48:09.700 | - Yeah, I was gonna say.

03:48:10.540 | - And then Yuri Gagarin, from the Russian perspective,

03:48:13.660 | is the first man in space.

03:48:15.260 | And that, I think, still persists.

03:48:16.860 | And some of that, in healthy forms,

03:48:19.460 | is probably constructive to a little bit of competition

03:48:22.740 | that pushes all the great scientists on each side.

03:48:26.260 | But anyway, what do you think about

03:48:28.900 | this Yuri Gagarin mission of the first human in space?

03:48:32.140 | And the Vostok mission in 1961?

03:48:35.820 | Just in general, when you look back at that time,

03:48:38.340 | leading to the first man on the moon.

03:48:42.940 | - Yeah, April 12th, 1961.

03:48:45.300 | Yuri's night, baby.

03:48:46.140 | That's a, yeah, it's insane.

03:48:48.900 | What's insane to me is the first person in space

03:48:53.460 | didn't just go to space, he went into orbit.

03:48:56.740 | Yuri Gagarin flew around the Earth in orbit and reentered.

03:49:00.900 | That's a monumental task compared to suborbital.

03:49:04.500 | So the United States did two suborbital flights

03:49:07.580 | in that same year, I believe in that same year,

03:49:09.140 | at least I'm pretty sure, in 1961.

03:49:11.300 | They flew for the first time orbitally in 1962.

03:49:14.220 | So they weren't terribly far behind

03:49:15.940 | to get a human into orbit.

03:49:16.860 | Like in the grand scheme of things,

03:49:18.140 | 10 months difference.

03:49:19.660 | But at the same time, the fact that the Soviet Union

03:49:21.580 | just went straight to flying someone into orbit

03:49:23.860 | is monumental.

03:49:25.540 | And I'm sure they did not do excessive,

03:49:28.700 | rigorous testing here.

03:49:30.660 | Because there is a space race,

03:49:32.260 | and you have the first is important.

03:49:34.780 | Just imagine being Yuri.

03:49:36.340 | What do you say when they're like launching him,

03:49:39.540 | like let's go or something?

03:49:40.900 | Like, I mean, you're taking,

03:49:44.420 | we're talking about you being on Starship.

03:49:46.020 | Like you're taking a pretty big risk

03:49:48.700 | being launched out into orbit.

03:49:52.060 | - Hopefully a lot less risk than what Yuri went through.

03:49:55.020 | - So Yuri, the crazy thing,

03:49:57.500 | remember those matchsticks we talked about?

03:49:59.940 | You know, there's 20 main combustion chambers on Soyuz,

03:50:03.300 | and there's four, and 12 more Vernier engines

03:50:08.020 | that all need to be lit.

03:50:09.420 | So you're sitting on top of this booster,

03:50:11.980 | and they light all of those,

03:50:13.100 | 32 combustion chambers on the ground.

03:50:16.220 | And then it has this insane separation process

03:50:19.180 | between what the Soviet Union would call

03:50:20.900 | the first stage and the second stages,

03:50:22.260 | but we would call it like the core stage and the boosters.

03:50:25.300 | They all, four of these boosters have to peel away perfectly

03:50:28.420 | from the core stage simultaneously.

03:50:30.940 | You know, if one of them sticks on, mission failed.

03:50:33.500 | If one of them doesn't eject properly

03:50:35.700 | and drags into the other tank, you know, it's a goner.

03:50:39.380 | So the staging process of the Soyuz is insane to me

03:50:43.740 | that that ended up working out.

03:50:45.980 | It's just the technology in Soyuz,

03:50:50.420 | I mean, more or less, that same rocket

03:50:52.940 | is what's still flying humans that are cosmonauts

03:50:57.940 | from Roscosmos and going to the International Space Station

03:51:01.140 | are flying on a variant of that Soyuz rocket still today.

03:51:04.020 | It's still like that big of a workhorse.

03:51:07.860 | - What do you think about Roscosmos as it stands today,

03:51:11.940 | its history and its future in comparison to NASA

03:51:17.540 | and other national efforts

03:51:19.460 | and in comparison to commercial spaceflight?

03:51:22.020 | - I mean, utmost respect for the engineers involved

03:51:25.740 | in everything that's happened.

03:51:27.100 | I think Energomash is like still some of the,

03:51:29.380 | one of the greatest engine manufacturers

03:51:31.620 | when they have the funding to do so,

03:51:33.100 | but man, it seems like they're falling from grace

03:51:36.660 | as far as space prowess.

03:51:38.500 | You know, the Roscosmos went from having,

03:51:41.660 | I think they got very comfortable at the top of,

03:51:43.340 | you know, from 2011 until 2022 or until 2020,

03:51:47.740 | they were the only ride

03:51:48.820 | to the International Space Station since then.

03:51:51.500 | Like it started, I feel like in 2018,

03:51:54.620 | honestly, I think that's kind of when things,

03:51:56.340 | that's the first time I specifically remember

03:51:58.180 | a pretty nasty like thing happened in 2018.

03:52:01.260 | I think it was a Soyuz mission

03:52:03.540 | to the International Space Station,

03:52:04.700 | had one of the boosters not detached

03:52:06.660 | and had to have an abort, but you know, that happened.

03:52:10.420 | Then all of a sudden, next thing you know,

03:52:12.340 | there's a Progress being docked to the ISS

03:52:14.540 | a couple of years ago that spun the ISS,

03:52:16.260 | cartwheeled the ISS out of control,

03:52:18.180 | followed a few months later,

03:52:19.460 | the Pirs module docks to the International Space Station,

03:52:22.220 | spirals the International Space Station out of control again

03:52:24.860 | with like a thruster getting fixed on.

03:52:27.340 | There was a hole in a Russian segment.

03:52:31.660 | There's, well, I think the most recent one right now,

03:52:33.820 | there's a Soyuz docked to the ISS that has a puncture in it

03:52:36.700 | and it's leaking coolant

03:52:38.500 | and will not be returning humans on it.

03:52:40.980 | So they're actually having to fly up an uncrewed Soyuz.

03:52:43.900 | And that one likely wasn't a manufacturing error.

03:52:46.340 | It probably was like a micrometeorite puncture

03:52:48.540 | rendering the spacecraft unusable.

03:52:50.140 | We don't know for sure yet,

03:52:51.500 | but it's just really been like this fall from grace

03:52:54.900 | where they have all the potential.

03:52:58.660 | They have some of the best engines,

03:52:59.700 | some of the best rockets,

03:53:01.460 | and especially like right before

03:53:04.020 | the collapse of the Soviet Union,

03:53:05.460 | the Buran shuttle and the Energia rocket were incredible.

03:53:10.100 | Had they been able to evolve that into Buran-2

03:53:12.260 | and the reusable Energia?

03:53:13.820 | They had a fully reusable Energia on the drawing board.

03:53:16.980 | And like, I honestly fully think they could have done it.

03:53:20.900 | - Is it possible to return to a place

03:53:22.740 | where there is friendly competition between nations

03:53:25.100 | that ultimately unites and inspires the peoples

03:53:30.100 | of these different worlds,

03:53:31.540 | these very different worlds that have,

03:53:34.060 | especially recently come to conflict

03:53:36.700 | over the war in Ukraine.

03:53:38.540 | The tension builds, the war, the conflict, the suffering

03:53:43.180 | is actually creating more and more division,

03:53:45.700 | creating more and more hate.

03:53:47.260 | I think as we've talked about,

03:53:48.620 | I think science and engineering,

03:53:50.380 | and especially the most epic version of engineering,

03:53:52.780 | which is rocketry and space travel, unites people.

03:53:57.260 | Unites people even in a time of tension, conflict, and war.

03:54:01.260 | So do you have a hope that we can return to that place?

03:54:06.300 | - I think historically, space flight has been

03:54:09.540 | one of the most bonding things.

03:54:11.700 | We look at, we have countless examples

03:54:13.820 | of Cold War enemies coming together

03:54:16.180 | and working together, lending a hand.

03:54:18.500 | Apollo 13, for example, of course,

03:54:21.660 | there is the potential that who knew

03:54:23.740 | where it was gonna reenter since it was not

03:54:25.820 | in the planned trajectory at all for reentry.

03:54:28.380 | And the Soviet Union said, "Hey, wherever they land,

03:54:31.980 | "we'll help you guys out," basically.

03:54:33.620 | And that was a pretty big thing at the time, obviously.

03:54:37.300 | We also, in 1975, saw the Apollo-Soyuz mission,

03:54:40.620 | which was an Apollo spacecraft docking

03:54:42.500 | with the Soyuz spacecraft.

03:54:44.540 | First time there was international collaboration.

03:54:46.740 | And again, 1975, still very, amidst the Cold War,

03:54:51.420 | yet we have this collaboration that I don't know

03:54:54.580 | what else could have done that.

03:54:56.340 | I mean, and think about what it actually takes to do that.

03:54:58.580 | You have to come up with a docking module

03:55:00.980 | that takes the two different air environments

03:55:04.860 | and the two different docking systems

03:55:06.220 | and talk to the engineers and mission planners

03:55:08.740 | and figure out, train together,

03:55:10.780 | the cosmonauts and the astronauts trained together

03:55:13.300 | and got to know each other.

03:55:14.140 | They were crossing boundaries and borders

03:55:16.420 | and coming together for this mission.

03:55:17.860 | And even if it was totally a fluff piece,

03:55:20.300 | like even if it was totally this cynical,

03:55:24.500 | just trying to make a pretty face for everybody,

03:55:27.780 | for the cameras or something,

03:55:29.620 | obviously it still had an impact.

03:55:31.420 | - Yeah, the symbolic impact.

03:55:33.540 | But there's also the practical impact.

03:55:35.020 | I mean, a lot of people have to work together.

03:55:37.140 | - Yes.

03:55:37.980 | - And that has a ripple effect on the culture,

03:55:40.420 | on the different engineers.

03:55:41.880 | - Yeah, 100%.

03:55:44.380 | And even just the astronauts and the cosmonauts involved,

03:55:47.660 | think about what probably went through their heads

03:55:50.060 | during this process of going from,

03:55:52.060 | oh my God, I'm gonna have to work with them

03:55:53.900 | to getting to know them and then sharing meals in space.

03:55:58.220 | That's a crazy transformation of timelines.

03:56:01.660 | And I would love, I do think that space flight

03:56:04.940 | has the ability to bond us and unite us

03:56:07.140 | because it is ultimately,

03:56:09.220 | this little tiny little planet we're floating around on,

03:56:12.120 | it is the boundary that we all share.

03:56:15.380 | It only takes you getting off this planet to realize,

03:56:19.420 | oh my God, we're all neighbors.

03:56:21.380 | We're all living in the same house together.

03:56:23.660 | And I do think ultimately,

03:56:26.780 | as we continue to expand our horizons

03:56:29.540 | and expand our exploration,

03:56:30.540 | that it has the potential to unite us more

03:56:33.540 | than it has the potential to divide us.

03:56:35.980 | - So one of the potential conflicts of the 21st century

03:56:40.260 | that I think everyone wants to avoid,

03:56:44.020 | both in the cyber space and in the hot war space,

03:56:46.660 | cold war, hot war, all kinds of war,

03:56:48.940 | all kinds of economic conflict,

03:56:51.360 | this was between the United States and China.

03:56:54.780 | So China is going full steam ahead

03:56:58.660 | in developing a space program,

03:57:00.660 | doing a lot of incredible work.

03:57:02.740 | Like you mentioned, 64 launches in 2022 with two failures,

03:57:07.740 | but moving straight ahead.

03:57:11.540 | - And by the way, those failures,

03:57:13.220 | we had a lot of startups.

03:57:14.540 | Like a lot of the launches were from brand new companies.

03:57:17.060 | So to have two failures out of 64,

03:57:19.620 | I mean, that's still an impressive,

03:57:20.940 | if you look at operational launches, it was flawless.

03:57:24.780 | - Do you see a pathway where there's, again,

03:57:28.740 | in that same way, collaboration or a friendly competition

03:57:32.980 | between all the different companies and nations

03:57:37.300 | in the United States and China in the next,

03:57:40.500 | as we push towards the moon, Mars and beyond?

03:57:45.500 | - I held a dumb hope that China would actually be allowed

03:57:49.540 | to sign onto the Artemis Accord

03:57:51.300 | to be able to take part in this next step towards the moon.

03:57:55.220 | I mean, just imagine if they provided a propulsion module

03:57:59.420 | or a lander or something,

03:58:00.380 | and we actually came together to land on the moon

03:58:02.780 | instead of having another space race.

03:58:04.820 | It's like, it would have been so cool.

03:58:06.940 | And yeah, I still am hopeful that similar

03:58:11.940 | to back in the Cold War,

03:58:14.380 | that we might have something like that someday

03:58:16.700 | where we actually are collaborating.

03:58:18.580 | And it feels like sometimes we're really close to that.

03:58:20.700 | And then other times it feels like we're really far

03:58:22.980 | from that.

03:58:23.820 | And it just sucks because I know,

03:58:25.500 | and I try really hard on my channel to always separate

03:58:28.740 | and celebrate the work being done.

03:58:30.740 | 'Cause at the end of the day,

03:58:31.580 | there's someone that's just going home to their family,

03:58:34.740 | clocking in hours, working really hard

03:58:36.340 | on pushing their program and doing engineering work.

03:58:40.180 | And we don't get to choose where we're born

03:58:43.300 | and what we're born into.

03:58:45.140 | So I really like to avoid the political aspects of things

03:58:49.180 | and the geopolitical aspects and just appreciate the science

03:58:52.220 | and the science we're seeing.

03:58:53.500 | And the progress that China's doing in the last 10 years

03:58:57.300 | is very akin to the early space flight programs.

03:59:00.780 | And with the runway of just keep on going,

03:59:03.780 | I see no reason for them to be slowing down.

03:59:06.140 | So it's definitely something to watch

03:59:07.980 | and be interested in.

03:59:09.820 | And who knows?

03:59:10.780 | I mean, there really genuinely might be a race

03:59:13.580 | to the moon again,

03:59:14.420 | and there really genuinely might be a race to Mars.

03:59:18.900 | - Part of me is excited about that

03:59:20.780 | 'cause a race is pretty cool.

03:59:23.300 | But hopefully it's friendly competition

03:59:28.900 | and some collaboration.

03:59:30.420 | It is true that maybe I'm being a bit cynical,

03:59:34.460 | but nations sometimes,

03:59:37.260 | governments and leaders of those governments

03:59:39.260 | sometimes ruin things.

03:59:40.860 | Like you don't often have,

03:59:42.340 | statistically speaking,

03:59:44.620 | it's harder to have a leader of a nation

03:59:46.900 | that looks beyond the particular political bickering

03:59:51.900 | of that nation.

03:59:53.260 | And you have like a JFK type character

03:59:54.980 | that really steps up and inspires.

03:59:56.740 | I think statistically speaking,

03:59:58.420 | it's better to have somebody like Elon,

04:00:00.140 | who's a leader of a company,

04:00:01.380 | a commercial effort that is able to look beyond

04:00:04.460 | the borders of nations.

04:00:05.900 | And certainly inspiring educators like yourself

04:00:10.020 | to look beyond the borders of those nations

04:00:14.300 | and the geopolitical conflicts and so on

04:00:16.460 | to inspire people.

04:00:19.820 | I think that's just made so much easier.

04:00:22.180 | Like you can have more reach.

04:00:24.640 | Tim Dodd can have more reach than NASA, right?

04:00:29.300 | Like in terms of inspiring the world.

04:00:31.900 | And that's fascinating.

04:00:33.100 | Like that gives power to the individuals

04:00:35.740 | that see past the silly short-term geopolitical conflicts.

04:00:40.740 | That's the hope at least.

04:00:44.740 | - Do you worry that there might be a war in space?

04:00:48.740 | - Yeah.

04:00:49.780 | - Let's look out into the future.

04:00:50.940 | So forget, so the interesting thing

04:00:53.740 | about these rockets, right?

04:00:54.860 | Let's not forget rockets do what rockets do.

04:00:59.480 | That they can carry payloads that can be weapons.

04:01:03.440 | Do you worry about this?

04:01:07.880 | - I worry most about space wars

04:01:11.700 | as leading to the Kessler syndrome

04:01:14.100 | of having a cascading effect of like a spacecraft

04:01:17.660 | blowing up and then affecting another spacecraft

04:01:20.060 | and that blows up.

04:01:20.900 | And then all of a sudden you're trapped

04:01:22.460 | and have this debris cloud that we can't go into space

04:01:26.500 | anymore.

04:01:27.340 | Like that's my biggest,

04:01:28.180 | 'cause frankly at this point we could annihilate ourselves

04:01:30.300 | with terrestrial stuff anyway.

04:01:32.060 | You know what I mean?

04:01:32.900 | We don't need space to end society as we know it.

04:01:37.300 | You know what I mean?

04:01:39.020 | But we could really,

04:01:42.340 | and the good thing is I think everyone,

04:01:44.460 | well mostly everyone seems to understand this

04:01:46.820 | for the most part,

04:01:47.660 | that like we really can't be risking

04:01:50.700 | blowing up stuff in space in low Earth orbit

04:01:53.280 | because it could easily,

04:01:55.380 | like we could strain ourselves from space assets

04:01:57.420 | for 50 years.

04:01:58.540 | - Oh, can you elaborate on this?

04:02:00.780 | So like what is the danger of the debris there

04:02:03.020 | that could jeopardize the space?

04:02:06.620 | - So for instance,

04:02:07.980 | and it was only a couple years ago,

04:02:09.340 | Russia did an anti-satellite test on an orbital.

04:02:12.980 | We've done this too,

04:02:14.940 | the US has done this.

04:02:15.820 | I'm not pinning it on them,

04:02:17.580 | but we kind of know nowadays

04:02:19.460 | like don't do anti-satellite tests on orbital things

04:02:22.660 | because those things stay in orbit.

04:02:24.540 | You know, when you blow something up in space,

04:02:26.420 | it's not like,

04:02:27.760 | you know people think in space like,

04:02:30.500 | oh you throw something,

04:02:31.700 | it's just gonna keep going forever and ever and ever.

04:02:34.060 | I mean that's in the sense that it's not going to be

04:02:37.020 | slowed down due to air resistance.

04:02:39.820 | It's going to continue to do that,

04:02:41.540 | but it's staying in orbit around the Earth.

04:02:42.980 | Like you just slightly change the orbit of it around Earth

04:02:45.900 | when you throw a ball or something, you know.

04:02:48.700 | So the scary thing is when you blow up a satellite,

04:02:53.100 | all those pieces of that satellite are now

04:02:55.420 | millions of bullets in a halo around the Earth,

04:03:00.940 | in a very specific halo, you know.

04:03:02.860 | So some things get blown up faster, you know,

04:03:06.860 | according to its orbit, faster,

04:03:08.180 | so they'll go a little bit higher elliptically.

04:03:10.220 | Some things will get slowed down in that explosion

04:03:12.340 | and actually reenter.

04:03:13.460 | Some things will go sideways

04:03:14.820 | and change its inclination of that orbit.

04:03:16.420 | So you have this debris field,

04:03:17.980 | but it more or less becomes a band of like,

04:03:21.780 | no no, you know like a big scary,

04:03:24.020 | sharp scary bullets that can destroy another spacecraft.

04:03:28.940 | And so then all of a sudden, especially now Starlink,

04:03:30.620 | you know we're talking about thousands and thousands

04:03:32.300 | and thousands of satellites in space.

04:03:34.540 | If all of a sudden one, you know,

04:03:36.580 | a couple of them crash and you know, blow up

04:03:39.220 | and all of a sudden you have all the shrapnel

04:03:40.380 | going everywhere and then that hits another satellite,

04:03:42.580 | that creates shrapnel.

04:03:43.420 | You can literally blanket our entire low Earth orbit

04:03:47.020 | in 17,500 mile an hour bullets.

04:03:50.660 | You know, we're talking, the kinetic energy in this

04:03:56.100 | is so hard for people to fathom

04:03:57.300 | 'cause that's over 10 times faster

04:03:59.460 | than most like rifle bullets.

04:04:01.140 | And even like a big 50 cal is not gonna be,

04:04:04.620 | you know, we're still talking about about 10%.

04:04:07.820 | That, so when you think about the kinetic energy,

04:04:10.140 | it's insane.

04:04:10.980 | So a fleck of paint can go through panes of glass

04:04:15.620 | at that velocity.

04:04:17.060 | You know, a little piece of metal can puncture,

04:04:19.580 | you know, blow straight through.

04:04:21.940 | - So like, so our actions that seem small,

04:04:26.580 | so small scale military actions

04:04:32.100 | can have dire detrimental effects

04:04:34.380 | to the whole space program, like global space program.

04:04:37.300 | - Oh yeah, it can affect everything and everyone.

04:04:40.180 | - Including the, like including satellites.

04:04:42.920 | - Oh yeah, especially satellites.

04:04:44.620 | Like that's, well I mean, the good and the bad thing is,

04:04:47.660 | the good thing is a lot of satellites don't operate

04:04:50.260 | in low Earth orbit.

04:04:51.280 | Like a lot of the ones that we use day to day,

04:04:53.840 | a lot of them are in medium Earth orbit,

04:04:56.620 | like their GPS or their geostationary,

04:04:59.420 | which are way, way, way out there.

04:05:01.500 | And because of that, they won't really ever deorbit,

04:05:05.500 | like it'll take, you know, millennia to deorbit

04:05:08.020 | because, you know, just because something's in space

04:05:10.220 | doesn't mean it's there forever,

04:05:11.380 | especially like in low Earth orbit.

04:05:13.100 | The atmosphere doesn't just suddenly stop.

04:05:14.740 | It's not like you hit the Kármán line 100 kilometers

04:05:17.260 | and all of a sudden there's zero atmosphere.

04:05:18.600 | The atmosphere just slowly tapers, you know.

04:05:20.300 | You can experience that yourself as you climb a mountain,

04:05:22.380 | you slowly realize there's less and less air,

04:05:24.660 | you just keep going.

04:05:26.100 | And just because you're in space 200, 300 kilometers up,

04:05:29.580 | there's still trace molecules, you know.

04:05:31.700 | There's the occasional oxygen molecule,

04:05:34.020 | there's the occasional nitrogen molecule.

04:05:35.900 | And so that is actually drag.

04:05:37.300 | So a spacecraft in low Earth orbit,

04:05:39.840 | depending on its altitude,

04:05:40.820 | will take anywhere from five years to five months

04:05:45.060 | to deorbit, you know, or two months or one month.

04:05:47.340 | Like depending on its orbit or its altitude,

04:05:49.900 | we'll have some parasitic drag still

04:05:51.500 | and slowly throughout time slow down,

04:05:54.060 | which lowers its orbit, which drags it down more,

04:05:57.080 | lowers its orbit, and et cetera, et cetera,

04:05:58.660 | until it reenters.

04:06:00.220 | So if we end up with some kind of catastrophic event

04:06:04.580 | where the entire low Earth orbit has been inundated

04:06:07.900 | and blown up, it'll take months for the first band

04:06:11.740 | to clear up, it'll take years for something like beyond.

04:06:14.700 | There's charts, you know,

04:06:15.540 | people have all this stuff available.

04:06:17.700 | You shouldn't look at that stuff.

04:06:18.540 | - This is terrifying, by the way.

04:06:20.660 | This is really--

04:06:22.500 | - But again, the caveat is for the most part,

04:06:25.380 | the low Earth orbit stuff would clear up within years.

04:06:28.660 | So we could get back to doing some more with it.

04:06:30.460 | Like Starlink stuff would probably be able to be re,

04:06:33.220 | and you know, we could kind of redo it

04:06:35.020 | and build up from the ground up again.

04:06:37.180 | GPS wouldn't be wiped out,

04:06:38.580 | and our geostationary satellites wouldn't be wiped out.

04:06:40.220 | But the scary thing is we wouldn't be able to relaunch

04:06:42.580 | and replace new things because we're stuck.

04:06:45.060 | We're not gonna fly through that debris field, you know?

04:06:47.780 | - And we avoid that by avoiding military actions in space.

04:06:52.680 | - And these days, like there's more and more requirements

04:06:57.000 | and legislation, and especially trying

04:06:59.280 | to get international collaboration

04:07:00.500 | on having end of life plans for satellites.

04:07:03.020 | So that satellites, especially those in low Earth orbit,

04:07:05.580 | have like drag devices to increase.

04:07:07.400 | Then once they're done, they literally pull like,

04:07:08.940 | even just a ribbon, like a silly little like, you know,

04:07:12.340 | 40 foot long ribbon will sit there and it'll slowly,

04:07:15.460 | or it can speed up its reentry process

04:07:18.360 | by months or years or whatever.

04:07:20.520 | So we're starting to see that this is now

04:07:22.340 | an importance, there's a really cool company

04:07:24.580 | called Stoke Aerospace out in Washington

04:07:26.960 | is one of these launch providers that's really looking

04:07:29.420 | not into just trying to be the next, you know,

04:07:31.100 | SpaceX launch company.

04:07:32.700 | They're really seeing satellite,

04:07:34.860 | bringing stuff down from space,

04:07:37.140 | is actually being, especially right now,

04:07:39.180 | we have all of these hundreds and thousands

04:07:41.740 | of satellites being launched every year.

04:07:43.520 | Someone at some point is probably gonna have

04:07:45.180 | to do some cleanup.

04:07:46.100 | And so they're looking at being one

04:07:48.580 | of those companies to do that.

04:07:50.100 | - Well, what do you think about Starlink

04:07:52.580 | and the efforts of Starlink to put a very large number

04:07:56.620 | of satellites out there and provide internet access

04:08:01.620 | to Earth? - Anyone.

04:08:05.380 | - To anyone.

04:08:06.300 | - Generally, I think Starlink is phenomenal.

04:08:09.620 | And I would be saying this if it was any company,

04:08:11.860 | I wanna make that clear that people think

04:08:13.260 | I'm just some, you know, SpaceX fanboy or something

04:08:15.380 | and anything they do is perfect.

04:08:16.700 | - I think as your fan, I could say you're basically

04:08:19.540 | a fanboy or just a fan of everybody

04:08:23.420 | that's doing space stuff.

04:08:24.940 | And I don't, like, there's no,

04:08:26.620 | even in this whole conversation,

04:08:27.900 | there's no way we cover like 10%

04:08:29.700 | of what I wanted to talk to you about,

04:08:30.980 | so we're jumping around.

04:08:32.220 | I mean, there's, we could talk probably

04:08:33.820 | for an hour about Artemis.

04:08:36.300 | We could talk about anything with ULA,

04:08:40.300 | obviously all the other commercial efforts.

04:08:43.420 | We could talk about the NASA efforts,

04:08:44.980 | the, you know, the, I mean, and Saturn 5.

04:08:48.260 | Like, are we gonna really go with this conversation?

04:08:50.260 | I'm talking about Saturn 5.

04:08:51.500 | And we might, okay?

04:08:53.060 | So like, anyway, if you're a fan of everything,

04:08:55.860 | Starlink is in general exciting to you.

04:08:59.620 | - And not for the space assets,

04:09:01.700 | but just the potential for humanity.

04:09:03.060 | Like, I really think even as a consumer

04:09:05.900 | of the internet personally,

04:09:07.860 | our studio space down in Texas,

04:09:09.580 | we're stuck with Mediacom,

04:09:11.780 | which has like the least reliable internet service, period.

04:09:15.180 | That's the only option.

04:09:16.020 | Either that or they're trying to charge me like $20,000

04:09:18.620 | to run a fiber optic cable like 1,000 meters or something.

04:09:21.420 | Like, it's insane.

04:09:23.340 | I'm not going to do that.

04:09:24.780 | I bought Starlink.

04:09:26.140 | It helps, but it's still not, you know, amazing.

04:09:29.100 | But it has, you can see where this is going

04:09:30.580 | in a year or two, three, five years.

04:09:32.300 | They're like, oh, I can totally screw

04:09:33.900 | this other internet provider.

04:09:35.020 | And this is now by far the best option.

04:09:37.820 | And it's available literally anywhere.

04:09:39.500 | You don't have to be limited to your internet,

04:09:42.180 | local internet service provider.

04:09:44.660 | And on the global scale, of course,

04:09:46.380 | you have people being able to learn

04:09:48.780 | and learn about rockets, learn about water management

04:09:52.660 | and architecture and city planning and fitness and health.

04:09:57.660 | All of the modern conveniences

04:09:59.380 | that we Google every single day,

04:10:00.720 | there's people that don't have access to that right now.

04:10:03.460 | You know, I'm a self-taught rocket nerd.

04:10:06.300 | I would not be who I am if it wasn't for the internet

04:10:08.660 | in the last seven years, you know, six, seven years.

04:10:11.260 | - So unlocking the intellectual potential

04:10:14.060 | of places like Africa, of rural areas

04:10:16.300 | that don't currently have internet access.

04:10:18.400 | - That's a genuine, that's a huge thing.

04:10:22.620 | That's like humanitarian 101

04:10:25.060 | is give people access to information.

04:10:27.220 | And like, you know, I think we have this potential

04:10:31.100 | to try to step in and fix other people's problems.

04:10:33.300 | But the reality is like people are smart.

04:10:35.140 | No matter where you are, you give them the resources

04:10:37.340 | to learn, they're gonna solve problems.

04:10:39.180 | They're gonna problem solve, they're gonna engineer,

04:10:40.580 | they're going to, but if you don't give them access

04:10:43.140 | to that information, they're gonna be stuck

04:10:44.740 | in their cycles, you know?

04:10:46.780 | And so I think the potential for Starlink is incredible.

04:10:50.780 | I think it's already impactful.

04:10:52.220 | It's already affecting people in, you know,

04:10:55.660 | in rural and indigenous areas,

04:10:57.780 | and it's already affecting businesses and all that stuff.

04:11:00.700 | I think it's great.

04:11:02.060 | I think it is, you know, there's some downsides

04:11:06.140 | with astronomy, with ground-based astronomy

04:11:08.980 | that it can hinder observations from the ground.

04:11:13.060 | There's already a lot of communications

04:11:14.900 | between SpaceX and astronomical societies

04:11:18.780 | and things like that, because it is a real concern.

04:11:21.260 | You know, it can ruin observations, it can ruin data.

04:11:25.220 | But like one of the big ones, for instance,

04:11:26.580 | recently I think a new thing they're going to be working

04:11:29.220 | into is that currently, if a Starlink is flying

04:11:32.540 | over a ground-based asset, a lot of ground telescopes

04:11:37.540 | actually have a laser that goes up

04:11:40.300 | and it measures the atmospheric distortion.

04:11:42.220 | And the telescopes literally sit there

04:11:43.700 | and like by the millisecond fixes, like changes the focus

04:11:48.340 | and fixes those atmospheric distortions.

04:11:51.580 | And that laser can interfere with satellites.

04:11:54.620 | So previously, I'm pretty sure that SpaceX actually had

04:11:57.740 | to, you know, request that as they're flying

04:12:00.420 | over these satellites, or these telescopes,

04:12:02.460 | they turn off the laser.

04:12:04.260 | And when you have tens of thousands of these things flying,

04:12:08.540 | you're going to be turning off the laser more than it's on,

04:12:11.300 | you know, and just being this insanely inconvenient thing.

04:12:14.100 | 'Cause you're going to have these junctions happen often.

04:12:16.580 | And I think one of the things that SpaceX is like,

04:12:18.380 | "Okay, no, no, no, you guys keep the laser on,

04:12:20.220 | we'll deal with your laser."

04:12:21.700 | Good, good step, you know, things like that,

04:12:24.500 | mitigating the brightness of them so they're not visible

04:12:27.600 | under most conditions, of course,

04:12:29.340 | like they're still always going to be visible in some.

04:12:32.780 | But then ultimately for me, it's like this,

04:12:34.940 | you have this weird, like almost like a puberty

04:12:37.420 | of spaceflight and astronomy,

04:12:40.860 | where currently it's not cheap enough to really do a ton

04:12:43.420 | of incredible science or space-based telescopes.

04:12:46.620 | You know, we have Webb, we have Hubble,

04:12:48.700 | we have, you know, all these other, you know,

04:12:51.860 | awesome space-based telescopes, Chandra, you know,

04:12:55.940 | et cetera, et cetera, whatever.

04:12:57.020 | And you, but it's still so expensive to launch them,

04:13:02.020 | that we're still so reliant on our ground telescopes.

04:13:04.660 | But in the future, you can see a world where,

04:13:07.580 | "Oh, this is so cheap, we'll just launch,

04:13:09.540 | like we can launch 50 James Webb space telescope-sized

04:13:12.820 | telescopes this year for half the price

04:13:15.060 | of doing it on Earth," you know, and get way better data.

04:13:17.980 | So in the future, I think in 20, 30 years,

04:13:20.080 | we'll look at it and be like,

04:13:20.920 | "Oh man, that was an awkward time,

04:13:22.200 | where space assets were interfering with astronomy."

04:13:26.140 | But I think in the future, it's like,

04:13:27.260 | "Can you imagine doing space, you know,

04:13:29.060 | astronomy from the ground?

04:13:31.340 | That's insane, you know?"

04:13:32.180 | - There could be complexities to just having

04:13:33.980 | that many, just another topic.

04:13:36.020 | So a complexity is associated with having so many satellites,

04:13:39.580 | especially with competing companies and competing nations.

04:13:43.740 | Do you see that as an issue, having tens of thousands,

04:13:46.020 | hundreds of thousands of satellites?

04:13:47.820 | - Yeah.

04:13:48.660 | - It becomes a very interesting robotics

04:13:51.180 | collision avoidance problem.

04:13:52.720 | - The one thing to keep in mind is perspective.

04:13:55.220 | Like I know 10,000 satellites and 20,000

04:13:57.380 | and 100,000 satellites sounds insane,

04:13:59.940 | and it sounds really scary.

04:14:01.860 | But I mean, just even look at how many planes

04:14:04.100 | are in the air at any given time.

04:14:05.780 | And the planes are bigger, they're flying slower,

04:14:08.660 | which actually means there's a greater chance of collision.

04:14:10.620 | If you think about, you know, two objects occupying space,

04:14:14.100 | if they're, one's moving really fast,

04:14:15.420 | like imagine trying to, you know,

04:14:16.900 | throw two basketballs at each other, relatively easy.

04:14:19.420 | Now try shooting two bullets at each other

04:14:21.500 | and having like, you know, at 90 degrees from each other.

04:14:24.140 | You have to have your timing down,

04:14:25.380 | like really perfect to do that.

04:14:28.120 | Now take that times 10, you know,

04:14:29.660 | and these objects are taking up physical space

04:14:33.140 | very small amount of time.

04:14:34.340 | They're relatively small,

04:14:35.240 | like most satellites are not very big,

04:14:36.820 | and they have limitless altitudes to deal with.

04:14:40.160 | So even though you can have what look like convergences,

04:14:43.060 | you know, they can be 10, 20, 50,

04:14:45.100 | 100 kilometers difference often.

04:14:46.700 | And you know, they're dealing with this,

04:14:48.740 | like all the all space assets know,

04:14:51.720 | hey, I'm at this orbital plane and this blah, blah, blah,

04:14:54.220 | and they know their altitudes and know their safe distances

04:14:56.380 | and have these margins built in.

04:14:58.260 | And it's space.

04:14:59.100 | So there's like an insane amount of room, you know.

04:15:01.860 | So there's-- - There's a lot of margin.

04:15:03.420 | - There's a lot of margin,

04:15:04.880 | but of course you can't excuse that all the way.

04:15:07.660 | Like you have to still have plans

04:15:09.700 | and be considering that and considering collisions

04:15:12.700 | and considering all of the above.

04:15:14.680 | - When do you think the first human being

04:15:19.620 | will step foot on Mars?

04:15:21.060 | I, you don't like timelines, but is this something,

04:15:25.940 | and you're very much focused on kind of the short term

04:15:30.620 | of incredible progress that's happening,

04:15:33.460 | and that makes total sense.

04:15:34.900 | But there is the Mars plan that was at the origin

04:15:39.140 | of the commercial spaceflight efforts.

04:15:41.180 | Do you still see and dream about that day?

04:15:44.740 | - Let me be clear that I don't wanna go to Mars.

04:15:47.980 | But I do think if you're making me guess a timeline

04:15:52.860 | for when humans will walk on Mars,

04:15:55.500 | I, even a year ago, I still would have said

04:15:57.620 | by the end of 2020, like the 2020s decade, you know.

04:16:01.700 | So by December 31st, 2029,

04:16:05.140 | I thought humans would have walked on Mars.

04:16:06.420 | I'm starting to think that's still too optimistic,

04:16:10.900 | but I do, I definitely think by 2040.

04:16:13.780 | Like I for sure think that,

04:16:15.540 | and I really think it's just hard to predict that curve,

04:16:19.820 | you know, that project out that curve.

04:16:21.700 | We're gonna go from feeling like it's impossible

04:16:23.460 | to like it's feeling like it's inevitable.

04:16:24.820 | - You know, it could be another,

04:16:25.860 | by the end of this decade, JFK type moment,

04:16:28.260 | especially if China steps up with the space race.

04:16:31.220 | It could be like, all right,

04:16:33.660 | NASA kinda says, all right, this Elon fella,

04:16:37.820 | like really make this a gigantic effort.

04:16:40.460 | - Well, and if Starship works out as planned,

04:16:42.540 | and as NASA has invested in human landing systems,

04:16:45.700 | they're relying on SpaceX to land on the moon.

04:16:48.060 | SpaceX can land on the moon, they can land on Mars.

04:16:51.180 | Now, whether or not the life support

04:16:52.900 | and the human considerations of long-term spaceflight

04:16:55.940 | missions and high radiation and blah, blah, blah, blah,

04:16:58.740 | refueling on Mars is a huge, huge, huge deal.

04:17:01.820 | They definitely could send a Starship to Mars

04:17:04.140 | and land, ideally land in one piece on Mars.

04:17:07.460 | As soon as they can land on the moon,

04:17:10.580 | they can land on Mars basically.

04:17:11.860 | I mean, those two things are very,

04:17:13.340 | in some ways Mars is almost easier.

04:17:15.660 | 'Cause you can use the atmosphere to slow down.

04:17:18.500 | It actually doesn't take that much more Delta V

04:17:21.420 | to actually land on Mars than it does.

04:17:23.060 | 'Cause on the moon, you don't have any,

04:17:24.420 | you have to first get out to the moon,

04:17:26.460 | then orbit the moon, you know, you have to slow down.

04:17:28.260 | Every one of those is a maneuver change.

04:17:30.340 | Then you have to lower your orbit

04:17:32.140 | until it coincides, you know, hits the moon.

04:17:35.900 | Then you have to slow down enough to not explode

04:17:38.140 | when you hit the moon.

04:17:39.340 | So there's a lot of Delta V there,

04:17:40.460 | a lot of change in velocity.

04:17:42.540 | Mars is actually, by the time we kinda crunch the numbers,

04:17:45.220 | it's relatively similar.

04:17:46.940 | It's just a lot more difficult, like timeline-wise,

04:17:48.980 | and, you know, accuracy,

04:17:50.540 | and all of these other communication, you know,

04:17:52.580 | there's a lot of other things obviously involved.

04:17:54.940 | I'm glossing over it, making it sound easy.

04:17:57.020 | It's not.

04:17:57.860 | But, you know, I think there's a real decent chance

04:18:02.460 | we could see a starship vehicle land on Mars

04:18:05.260 | uncrewed by the end of the decade, though.

04:18:06.900 | - End of the decade.

04:18:08.140 | I mean, there's also a sociological element,

04:18:10.660 | maybe a political one, where I think you're allowed

04:18:13.980 | to take more risks with Mars than you are with the moon.

04:18:17.060 | 'Cause we've done the moon, 1969, it's been a while.

04:18:21.180 | So PR-wise, you have to be much safer.

04:18:25.060 | With Mars, everyone's like, it's super dangerous,

04:18:27.300 | like super, so you could take a little more risk.

04:18:31.980 | - 100%.

04:18:32.820 | - Especially with manned missions.

04:18:34.580 | But actually, just going back to the moon landing,

04:18:38.500 | Apollo 11 mission.

04:18:40.220 | We haven't talked about this, Adam.

04:18:42.140 | With the amazing engine there, but again,

04:18:45.580 | the romantic question, and you look back

04:18:47.460 | at that moon landing, one small step for man,

04:18:52.300 | one giant step for mankind.

04:18:54.540 | What do you think about that moment in human history?

04:18:57.860 | Do you go back to that often?

04:18:59.420 | Or are you focused just like with the cars on the engines?

04:19:03.060 | - No, no, no.

04:19:03.900 | I still, when I need inspiration,

04:19:06.460 | I rewatch this documentary called When We Left Earth.

04:19:09.380 | I think it was Discovery Channel did it.

04:19:11.740 | Six part episode.

04:19:13.900 | It was narrated by Gary Sinise.

04:19:16.820 | Phenomenal overview of the space race.

04:19:20.060 | And that will get my juices flowing every time.

04:19:23.220 | Every time.

04:19:24.060 | Just, it's so well done.

04:19:25.460 | And it really just summarizes that program so well.

04:19:29.020 | And when I, and beyond, it goes all the way

04:19:31.300 | to the space shuttle.

04:19:32.140 | But yeah, when I watch footage of humans walking on the moon,

04:19:37.140 | it's just, I can't believe we're dumb enough

04:19:41.420 | to do it with the technology we had

04:19:43.380 | and the risks they took to do it.

04:19:45.420 | And the insane engineering that it took to do that

04:19:49.980 | is just absolutely astonishing.

04:19:53.140 | The amount of, the sheer logistics of what it took

04:19:57.380 | to do it with the technology we had back then

04:20:00.260 | is like, how did we have so much money and effort

04:20:04.500 | and energy and time and resources,

04:20:06.820 | human resources to do this?

04:20:08.500 | It's just insane.

04:20:09.940 | - Just the weakness of the computers they had back then.

04:20:12.900 | They had to do so much.

04:20:14.180 | I mean, yeah, it's, so much with so little.

04:20:17.260 | - It's insane.

04:20:18.100 | But at the same time, I don't know if we wanna talk

04:20:21.860 | about conspiracy theories or anything,

04:20:23.100 | but it is all of, we have the proof in the pudding

04:20:25.900 | of the 400,000 people on payroll,

04:20:30.100 | all of the paperwork, all of the--

04:20:32.140 | - Oh, you mean the question, the conspiracy,

04:20:34.220 | if we land on the moon?

04:20:35.340 | - Yeah.

04:20:36.180 | - Well, I mean, I think--

04:20:37.020 | - The receipts are there, literally.

04:20:39.500 | - But it's like a lot of things like that.

04:20:43.340 | I mean, we actually generally live in a pretty cynical time

04:20:46.500 | where people distrust institutions.

04:20:48.020 | Part of the thing was the space program

04:20:50.580 | is one of the things that can help reinvigorate

04:20:53.540 | the trust in institutions.

04:20:55.100 | By institutions, even that word is a bad word now,

04:20:59.180 | but institutions means a bunch of humans get together

04:21:02.340 | and do a big thing together.

04:21:06.100 | - Yeah, but if I was conspiratorially minded,

04:21:11.020 | it's like, how the hell do humans do that?

04:21:14.700 | - Yeah.

04:21:15.740 | - So I think that's a very cynical take, unfortunately,

04:21:19.020 | but it's still an incredible one.

04:21:21.500 | And also, until you look at the receipts,

04:21:26.500 | there's a kind of a rationale

04:21:28.620 | to that kind of conspiracy theory

04:21:33.740 | because so much pressure was put on the space race,

04:21:37.820 | the PR of it, to be the winner.

04:21:39.980 | So it makes sense that you might want to try

04:21:43.500 | to take shortcuts and fake things and propaganda,

04:21:47.620 | different kinds of messaging.

04:21:49.900 | And I'm sure stuff like that was happening,

04:21:51.740 | some kind of little adjustment here and there

04:21:55.720 | to present things better and so on.

04:21:57.260 | But ultimately, the actual engineering project

04:22:00.260 | of landing on the moon,

04:22:02.220 | the fact that humans did that,

04:22:03.820 | I mean, it is sad that we didn't have better ways

04:22:07.740 | to record it.

04:22:08.740 | And as I watch SpaceX efforts and Blue Origin

04:22:11.420 | and these efforts, it's still not trivial to record

04:22:15.460 | the how just amazing, awe-inspiring space is.

04:22:20.460 | 'Cause it like, you know, it's like Elon jokes about it,

04:22:24.740 | space does look fake.

04:22:26.340 | - Yeah.

04:22:27.180 | - Like, I think there is some element of it

04:22:29.380 | where you have to be there to experience it, really.

04:22:32.460 | And I don't, like, I think it's currently still

04:22:36.900 | an unsolved problem of how do you capture all of that?

04:22:39.780 | I mean, you're one of the early people

04:22:42.060 | that are part of the crew that is exploring

04:22:45.860 | that very question.

04:22:46.940 | I'm sure you won't find all the answers,

04:22:48.940 | but you'll start to say, like,

04:22:50.340 | how do we convert this into a visual format,

04:22:53.340 | into some kind of format that captures the magic of it?

04:22:56.500 | - 100%.

04:22:57.340 | And that's a perspective thing that I think about

04:22:59.380 | all the time, you know?

04:23:00.500 | And I'll do a lot of thinking about, like,

04:23:03.700 | what is the thing that's reacting to people?

04:23:05.980 | Is it the sound?

04:23:06.820 | Is it the perspective?

04:23:07.780 | Is it like seeing a little tiny human next to a landing leg

04:23:10.220 | that makes people go, oh my God, this thing is huge.

04:23:12.660 | You know, just reading, you know, and digesting that

04:23:15.500 | and trying to help to convey that as best as possible.

04:23:19.500 | Because the stuff that we are and have worked on

04:23:22.140 | is so cool, it's so exciting,

04:23:26.380 | and it's so important, and like, actually, you know,

04:23:30.300 | so much bigger than any one of us,

04:23:32.360 | physically and metaphorically.

04:23:34.580 | It's just so, it's just, I wish everyone had that experience

04:23:37.700 | and had that light bulb go off.

04:23:39.100 | - And that's the cool thing that you're, like,

04:23:41.060 | smack in the middle of solving that really difficult

04:23:44.580 | and fascinating problem of how do you capture the magic?

04:23:48.700 | How do you inspire?

04:23:50.260 | Like, that's not just an engineering problem,

04:23:52.780 | that's a communication problem, education problem.

04:23:55.300 | - I find, specifically for myself,

04:23:57.660 | that I get most excited about something

04:23:59.380 | when I learn a lot about it.

04:24:00.300 | Like, when I learn the ins and the outs,

04:24:01.740 | and I learn all the little problem solving

04:24:03.460 | and the, you know, the cool, like, oh my God,

04:24:06.200 | they had to do what to make it work?

04:24:07.700 | Wow, that's amazing.

04:24:09.540 | And that's, I try to just always go back to that root thing

04:24:13.140 | of, like, what can I teach my, like, if I'm,

04:24:15.480 | every video, I expect that I learn something making it,

04:24:18.540 | no matter what.

04:24:19.380 | Like, no matter how much I think I know about something,

04:24:22.640 | at the end of the day, if I'm not learning something,

04:24:24.220 | it's not a good video, you know?

04:24:26.100 | And I always think that people get excited when they learn,

04:24:29.740 | and when they have some questions answered for them.

04:24:32.500 | - Let me ask you a couple of quick,

04:24:36.500 | out there futuristic questions.

04:24:38.000 | I have to. - Sure.

04:24:39.140 | - I'd hate myself if I don't ask you.

04:24:41.340 | So first, let's talk about nuclear propulsion.

04:24:43.420 | So out there, interesting propulsion ideas.

04:24:46.460 | So what do you think,

04:24:48.500 | beyond the chemical engines that we talked about,

04:24:52.620 | what do you think about using nuclear fission,

04:24:55.980 | and maybe even nuclear fusion, for propulsion?

04:25:00.660 | - We already have thermal nuclear reactors.

04:25:03.980 | They're nuclear engines that have been tested

04:25:06.540 | both by the United States and Soviet Union

04:25:08.020 | that were 100% valid, like, totally ready to go,

04:25:11.980 | efficient, super awesome.

04:25:14.740 | Yes, yes, yes, hardcore yes.

04:25:16.940 | And what they're using is, yeah, basically a fusion reactor.

04:25:21.280 | You're flowing hydrogen through it,

04:25:23.180 | and heating up that hydrogen,

04:25:24.140 | taking it from liquid to gas.

04:25:25.940 | By heating it up, you're adding energy to the propellant,

04:25:30.140 | and then you're literally just using

04:25:31.400 | that now steam-hot hydrogen,

04:25:34.140 | and flowing it through a DeLaval nozzle.

04:25:36.260 | And you also have to use that energy to spin the pumps

04:25:38.900 | to still pump the thing,

04:25:40.440 | so you're still kinda using a lot of the tricks

04:25:42.300 | that you're using, but instead of a chemical reaction,

04:25:45.060 | you're literally just using nuclear fission

04:25:48.940 | to heat up propellant, and do the same thing.

04:25:51.780 | And at the end of the day, you end up with like,

04:25:52.800 | eight to 900 seconds of specific impulse,

04:25:54.880 | which is double that of chemical propulsion.

04:25:57.660 | Most of that comes just because hydrogen's so light,

04:25:59.780 | you're only emitting, you're only ejecting hydrogen

04:26:02.660 | out of the nozzle.

04:26:03.800 | So the lighter a molecule is, the faster it,

04:26:07.100 | just like if you had a golf ball versus a bowling ball,

04:26:12.100 | you can only physically throw one so fast,

04:26:14.760 | and the other one is a human

04:26:15.940 | you're not gonna do very well with.

04:26:17.700 | So you can just, you get, you have the more potential

04:26:20.280 | for a higher exit velocity.

04:26:22.380 | So nuclear thermal, amazing.

04:26:25.220 | You can just shoot these little hydrogen molecules out

04:26:27.640 | crazy fast, crazy efficiently, we already have it,

04:26:30.700 | like we can do it, yes, yes, yes.

04:26:32.300 | And actually we're already reinvesting in that again,

04:26:35.160 | as the United States is looking into basically

04:26:38.660 | ramping back up our nuclear propulsion.

04:26:40.620 | - Why haven't we done it yet?

04:26:42.820 | And what do you think the challenges are there?

04:26:44.620 | And do you think that's an obvious future?

04:26:46.180 | Like would you see in 50 years we're not using,

04:26:50.080 | like we're not, for major projects,

04:26:54.520 | like a Starship type of project,

04:26:55.940 | we're not using chemical propulsion anymore?

04:26:58.100 | - For getting off Earth,

04:26:59.140 | you'll always want to use chemical propulsion

04:27:01.380 | because the gas will come irradiated.

04:27:03.380 | Like you don't want to, and actually the thrust

04:27:06.060 | to weight ratio of these engines are relatively poor.

04:27:08.220 | They're very heavy, they have a nuclear reactor,

04:27:10.660 | like they're not, they're really,

04:27:12.860 | the reason we kind of give up on them

04:27:14.220 | is they're really most useful for like interplanetary.

04:27:17.340 | If you're trying to get a big,

04:27:18.320 | like if you're trying to send a huge payload off to Mars,

04:27:21.260 | nuclear thermal is amazing.

04:27:23.580 | It's still could be beneficial even going to the moon,

04:27:26.940 | you know, like in an Earth moon system,

04:27:28.420 | you could use nuclear thermal very effectively

04:27:31.700 | and it could be a great choice.

04:27:33.520 | But it also, that starts to get into that trade of like,

04:27:36.220 | well, we can just kind of use a little bit bigger rocket

04:27:38.820 | and fly a normal, you know, it's that whole trade thing.

04:27:42.860 | But another reason why we kind of stopped using them,

04:27:46.540 | the one that the United States developed,

04:27:48.260 | Nerva was so heavy, only a Saturn V

04:27:50.740 | could actually lift the stage of it, like the upper stage.

04:27:53.780 | So it replaced the S4B with a nuclear thermal

04:27:57.020 | with the Nerva engine.

04:27:58.400 | The Soviet Union developed one about 1/10 the size

04:28:00.860 | and thrust that was small enough to fly on a proton rocket.

04:28:04.740 | But neither of them ever flew.

04:28:07.300 | Both of them have been tested and like thumbs up,

04:28:09.980 | ready to go, which is just a huge shame to me

04:28:13.100 | 'cause they could unlock a lot of interplanetary potential

04:28:17.220 | and just all around awesome.

04:28:19.100 | - Which potentially interstellar as well.

04:28:21.820 | - Not quite, I don't think nuclear thermal,

04:28:23.700 | not, we're not quite getting there,

04:28:25.440 | but then you get into like nuclear pulse drives

04:28:27.660 | and things where you're literally like

04:28:29.700 | basically ejecting a bomb out the back of your rocket

04:28:32.420 | and exploding and having like a shock absorber

04:28:34.660 | and pogo sticking your way out of the solar system.

04:28:38.100 | That's, I mean, by all physics, sure.

04:28:42.020 | There's nothing wrong with that.

04:28:43.540 | It's not breaking any laws of physics.

04:28:45.440 | But I just don't see us getting to that need anytime soon.

04:28:49.740 | I don't think we're gonna be--

04:28:50.580 | - Interstellar travel.

04:28:51.420 | - Yeah, I mean, that's, I think we're gonna want

04:28:54.100 | a better understanding of physics and physics itself.

04:28:57.300 | - Yeah, do you have a hope that maybe theoretical physics

04:29:00.980 | will open the door to some exciting propulsion systems?

04:29:03.700 | - Yeah, I do.

04:29:05.220 | I think we're still at the very infancy

04:29:07.060 | of our understanding of everything and how things work.

04:29:09.820 | And 100 years ago, it would be stupid

04:29:12.900 | to try to predict the things we know today.

04:29:14.340 | And who knows, like even, I think about things

04:29:17.100 | like James Webb looking deeper into our solar system

04:29:20.100 | than ever before and physically being able to see objects

04:29:22.820 | that we just have not even been able

04:29:24.140 | to physically see before.

04:29:25.860 | - On being able to study black holes, for example,

04:29:29.300 | better and better, the stuff that's happening

04:29:30.700 | outside of black holes, at the edges of black holes,

04:29:33.500 | how the information is stored,

04:29:35.780 | the holographic principles, just there's so much weirdness

04:29:40.380 | around black holes.

04:29:42.180 | Around where gravity starts bending light,

04:29:47.020 | it's like, all right, we'll get to look at that now

04:29:51.380 | and start to wonder like, what is going on?

04:29:54.420 | And how can we use that somehow for propulsion?

04:29:59.140 | I mean, it seems awfully crazy and futuristic

04:30:01.420 | at this moment, but I think that's because we know

04:30:04.060 | almost nothing about those kinds of objects

04:30:09.060 | where, again, where the general relativity

04:30:12.980 | and quantum mechanics start to have to be both considered

04:30:17.980 | to describe those kinds of objects.

04:30:19.540 | And as we study those objects, we might figure out

04:30:21.860 | some kind of unification thing that will allow us

04:30:24.180 | to understand maybe how to use black holes for propulsion.

04:30:29.180 | I could say a lot of crazy things,

04:30:33.240 | but basically-- - But the point is

04:30:34.780 | it'd be stupid for us to even guess about things

04:30:37.500 | we don't even know about yet, you know what I mean?

04:30:40.180 | So therefore, I'm not going to say that the best option

04:30:42.900 | for interstellar travel is nuclear drives.

04:30:46.420 | That could be someone saying in 1600,

04:30:49.580 | the only way to fly is by strapping

04:30:51.620 | a thousand birds to your head.

04:30:53.120 | - But that said, I mean, everything you're saying is right,

04:30:57.980 | but human history is such, at the beginning

04:31:00.780 | of the 20th century, physicists, Rutherford,

04:31:03.220 | everybody, there's brilliant people that said

04:31:05.700 | we've basically solved all of it.

04:31:07.900 | - Right. - If you talk

04:31:08.860 | to most physicists, I think they're going to say

04:31:11.460 | we've pretty much solved, the Standard Model

04:31:15.980 | describes physics extremely accurately.

04:31:18.520 | General relativity explains the cosmos

04:31:22.380 | as we observe them extremely accurately.

04:31:25.220 | Yeah, there's a whole dark matter, dark energy thing,

04:31:27.060 | whatever, but outside of that,

04:31:30.260 | so we basically solved,

04:31:31.940 | where are you going to find gaps in knowledge

04:31:37.620 | that are going to somehow create warp drives

04:31:40.380 | or something like that, so wormholes?

04:31:42.220 | But it seems like throughout history,

04:31:46.660 | we prove ourselves wrong time and time again.

04:31:48.900 | - Yes, and this is well outside of any of my knowledge base,

04:31:53.580 | so I want to make sure that if I say anything stupid,

04:31:55.740 | it's because I'm just a peasant here in physics land,

04:31:59.700 | but yes, we're all peasants in physics land.

04:32:03.260 | - But I really just think it's very humbling

04:32:06.420 | that we're still using chemical propulsion

04:32:08.380 | and variants of, like injecting mass to propel ourselves,

04:32:11.820 | and no matter how you get at it,

04:32:14.180 | and I think someday, I would expect that our species

04:32:18.180 | has figured out a way to get beyond that.

04:32:20.660 | - Gotta ask you another wild question.

04:32:24.380 | What do you think of Bob Lazar,

04:32:28.500 | who claimed that he worked at and saw in Area 51,

04:32:33.500 | a propulsion system fueled by, I'm quoting here,

04:32:37.980 | maybe from Wikipedia, I don't know where I got this from,

04:32:40.900 | fueled by an antimatter reactor,

04:32:43.020 | which used as fuel the chemical element

04:32:45.860 | with atomic number 115.

04:32:48.220 | At the time, it wasn't synthesized.

04:32:50.140 | It was later in 2003 synthesized, named Moscovium.

04:32:56.700 | He said that the propulsion system

04:32:58.180 | relied on a stable isotope of element 115,

04:33:01.340 | which allegedly generates a gravity wave

04:33:03.580 | that allowed the vehicle to fly

04:33:05.100 | and to evade visual detection by bending light around it.

04:33:08.820 | No stable isotopes of Moscovium have yet been synthesized.

04:33:13.380 | All have proven extremely radioactive,

04:33:15.460 | decaying in a few hundred milliseconds.

04:33:18.660 | One, do you believe him?

04:33:21.620 | Which I find him fascinating

04:33:24.140 | because I find the human mind even more fascinating

04:33:28.500 | than something like an antimatter drive

04:33:34.580 | 'cause I think it's such a giant mystery

04:33:36.340 | that we haven't even begun to explore deeply.

04:33:38.780 | Anyway, in that sense, whether he's lying or not

04:33:42.820 | are both interesting things to explore

04:33:45.260 | from a psychology perspective.

04:33:47.140 | But two, he's basically saying that I guess it's an alien,

04:33:53.140 | extraterrestrial engine thing.

04:33:57.460 | What do you think?

04:34:01.020 | - I mean, I'm happy to change my opinion

04:34:03.420 | based on new evidence at any point.

04:34:05.400 | The biggest part of me wants to just be like,

04:34:10.100 | this is obviously just stupid and a hoax

04:34:12.740 | and just total quack.

04:34:14.680 | And then another part of me still is like,

04:34:18.020 | this is exciting and fun to think that this is all real.

04:34:21.340 | And then another part of me goes,

04:34:22.300 | why, how good is this guy at lying and making stuff up?

04:34:26.620 | 'Cause it's all really good.

04:34:29.260 | Like good storytelling, good like,

04:34:31.060 | I don't know what to think, honestly.

04:34:32.520 | I don't know, I'm really very skeptical

04:34:35.300 | about anyone explaining anything like this.

04:34:37.200 | Like, I mean, my radar is like screaming at me like,

04:34:41.080 | this is all full crap, you know?

04:34:44.420 | But I'd say like, there's still a part of me

04:34:46.220 | that's just like, man, that is kind of cool.

04:34:48.500 | How does he know that?

04:34:49.620 | And like, you know what I mean?

04:34:51.660 | - Well, I think you're actually--

04:34:52.500 | - I'm conflicted.

04:34:53.320 | - I think you're actually in the best kind of place

04:34:55.060 | 'cause it's, I'm afraid of being the kind of person

04:34:58.660 | that hears something like that and says,

04:35:01.020 | it's definitely, he's definitely full of crap

04:35:04.740 | and basically closed my mind off to all that stuff.

04:35:07.260 | I'm afraid of being somebody who closes my mind off

04:35:09.880 | to a thing that's actually a early thread

04:35:13.820 | to a brilliant, to a future,

04:35:16.500 | to a fascinating solution to a mystery.

04:35:19.680 | So, but in this case, I mean, I have so many red flags

04:35:23.500 | from a psychological perspective that,

04:35:26.000 | but again, outside of this particular individual,

04:35:31.860 | I do wonder if aliens have visited us.

04:35:34.120 | I think aliens are everywhere.

04:35:37.220 | I think the universe is teeming with alien life.

04:35:41.020 | I mean, there's, it's very difficult for me

04:35:44.420 | to statistically understand,

04:35:46.460 | given how life finds a way here on earth,

04:35:51.460 | just everywhere, the entire history of life on earth,

04:35:55.740 | from the very origin of life,

04:35:57.980 | it seems to be damn good at doing its thing,

04:36:01.220 | evolving to get better and better and better

04:36:03.540 | at doing its thing.

04:36:04.600 | Now, there could be some special aspects

04:36:06.680 | to the origin of life itself,

04:36:08.380 | which is completely not understood.

04:36:10.220 | So maybe the true magic is in the origin of life,

04:36:13.840 | or it could be that there's some magical leaps

04:36:17.140 | to eukaryotic cells, for example,

04:36:19.780 | that the universe, our galaxy's teeming with alien life,

04:36:23.420 | but it's all bacteria.

04:36:24.760 | They're all boring bacteria or exciting bacteria.

04:36:27.620 | No offense to bacteria.

04:36:29.460 | But the no intelligence spacefaring civilizations.

04:36:32.820 | I don't know, but I just, if I were to guess,

04:36:35.860 | if I had to bet all my money,

04:36:37.740 | there is spacefaring civilizations

04:36:40.980 | everywhere in the universe.

04:36:42.980 | And the fact that they have not been

04:36:46.700 | directly definitively observed confuses me.

04:36:51.700 | And I think it's a mystery.

04:36:53.340 | And if I were to suggest what the solution to that mystery is

04:36:57.440 | is they might look extremely different from us.

04:37:00.740 | And we might be too dumb to detect them.

04:37:03.320 | - Yeah.

04:37:04.860 | - And so there, I think you have to be extremely open-minded

04:37:08.560 | at what would we be looking for.

04:37:11.640 | - Right.

04:37:13.180 | - And that's a very practical thing to be open-minded about.

04:37:16.580 | And practically speaking, if we were to be able to

04:37:21.240 | even detect them from a distance,

04:37:23.280 | get a techno signature of a distant planet,

04:37:26.920 | of a distant star system that has alien life,

04:37:30.280 | honestly, the number one thing I kinda wanna know

04:37:34.700 | is like, what's your propulsion system?

04:37:37.340 | (both laughing)

04:37:39.440 | How do we travel faster, right?

04:37:41.000 | Like, there's a bunch of details probably,

04:37:42.840 | but first, let's get together.

04:37:45.360 | - And teach me how to go fast.

04:37:46.840 | - Go fast.

04:37:47.680 | - I like motorcycles, I like rockets.

04:37:48.840 | Tell me what you got, yeah.

04:37:50.520 | - Yeah, like how, like, I'll show you mine

04:37:52.400 | if you show me yours kind of thing.

04:37:53.880 | At the interstellar, intergalactic level.

04:37:57.720 | Yeah, anyway, I just wonder,

04:38:00.440 | maybe it's a cheat code in this video game we call life,

04:38:04.840 | but I wanna use the cheat code to figure out

04:38:07.600 | what kind of propulsion systems are possible.

04:38:09.720 | And it feels like other alien civilizations

04:38:12.480 | might help us, give us,

04:38:15.060 | give us a guidance on that.

04:38:20.000 | Of course, I think even just discovering,

04:38:23.880 | boy, one of the things with the space program,

04:38:26.820 | like everything we're doing with Mars,

04:38:29.180 | like the secret thing I'm really excited about,

04:38:31.400 | the romantic thing is humans on Mars,

04:38:33.280 | but the secret thing is building giant stations on Mars

04:38:37.620 | that allow us to definitively, hopefully find

04:38:42.280 | the traces of life that either currently doesn't live

04:38:47.280 | or has once lived on Mars.

04:38:48.920 | Because if that's the case,

04:38:50.840 | that means for sure life is everywhere.

04:38:53.080 | - Oh, 100%.

04:38:53.920 | - And then you're like, once you know that,

04:38:56.360 | sorry to keep interrupting, not shutting the hell up.

04:38:58.680 | This is supposed to be an interview, goddammit.

04:39:00.640 | All right, that, like, that, just the knowledge of that,

04:39:05.500 | just the knowledge that a four minute mile can be run,

04:39:08.880 | I think will open our minds completely

04:39:11.520 | to really, really hardcore push to interstellar travel

04:39:15.480 | or colonizing Mars, becoming a multi-planetary species.

04:39:18.820 | It'd be truly inspiring.

04:39:20.920 | - You think that.

04:39:22.040 | Do you get nervous, though?

04:39:25.920 | I'm the interviewer now.

04:39:27.320 | Don't you get nervous that we could make

04:39:30.340 | spectacular discovery on Mars

04:39:31.960 | that not only has there been life,

04:39:33.880 | there's actually pretty advanced micro,

04:39:37.000 | or multi-cellular life totally thriving in certain regions

04:39:41.320 | we just hadn't visited on Mars,

04:39:42.840 | and we make this big discovery,

04:39:44.320 | that a relatively large percentage of people

04:39:48.280 | just simply wouldn't believe it.

04:39:49.880 | They'd think it's all 100% fake,

04:39:52.940 | and that they're just doing this to control us,

04:39:55.120 | and that blah, blah, blah.

04:39:56.480 | We could make the most important discovery

04:39:59.560 | in human life, in all of human existence,

04:40:03.360 | that we're not alone in this universe,

04:40:05.900 | cellularly at least.

04:40:09.280 | And a good percentage of people,

04:40:10.960 | I'm thinking 20, 30, in today's world,

04:40:14.480 | 40 plus percent of people wouldn't even believe it existed.

04:40:18.920 | - Interesting.

04:40:19.760 | It's just a very important thing to think about,

04:40:23.520 | especially as an educator like yourself.

04:40:26.280 | I think the current cynicism

04:40:28.880 | towards institutions and science is temporary.

04:40:31.600 | I think it's, they're basically, the internet woke up,

04:40:35.220 | the internet smells bullshit,

04:40:37.200 | and it looked at, I'm sorry I'm not being ageist,

04:40:40.800 | but saying older scientists, and they looked at them,

04:40:43.480 | and they kind of said, you're kind of full of shit.

04:40:45.840 | You got a lot of ego, you speak down to everybody,

04:40:50.160 | you're not very good at communicating.

04:40:52.160 | I think there's a lot of truth to what they're saying,

04:40:54.720 | and I think the young scientists that are coming up

04:40:57.120 | will be much better at not being full of shit,

04:40:59.420 | being authentic, being real,

04:41:00.940 | not treating people like they're children

04:41:04.020 | that can't possibly understand,

04:41:05.200 | like taking it very seriously,

04:41:06.960 | that there's a lot of intelligent people out there

04:41:09.120 | that are curious, that are full of desire for knowledge,

04:41:13.220 | like being transparent about all the uncertainties

04:41:16.100 | of the scientific process, all the tensions,

04:41:19.780 | the conflicts, all of that.

04:41:21.220 | And I think once we fix the science communication system,

04:41:27.980 | adapt it to the internet, I think that won't be an issue.

04:41:32.220 | I hope, I hope.

04:41:33.700 | I mean, that's why people like you are really important,

04:41:36.160 | is like communicate with authenticity.

04:41:38.560 | But yeah, that's definitely something to think about.

04:41:42.360 | I mean, yes, the early, I mean, listen, scientists too,

04:41:46.240 | like the phosphine discovered on Venus,

04:41:49.260 | is like they're extremely skeptical always.

04:41:52.460 | So definitely there'll be a lot of skepticism.

04:41:55.380 | And it depends what it looks like.

04:41:57.780 | If it kind of looks like,

04:41:59.460 | this thing kind of looks like bacteria back on Earth.

04:42:02.460 | Yes, so it means contamination

04:42:04.700 | is very difficult to avoid in general.

04:42:06.700 | But if the thing looks like fundamentally different,

04:42:10.160 | then you're like, all right.

04:42:11.860 | - Yeah, totally different DNA, RNA, like this is not,

04:42:16.180 | we've never observed this ever at all.

04:42:18.620 | - Then you're like, all right, cool.

04:42:22.040 | Of course, so that, another promising thing

04:42:25.860 | that's difficult to be definitive about,

04:42:28.420 | but as we get better and better direct imaging systems,

04:42:32.500 | there's now, I don't know how many,

04:42:34.820 | but thousands of planets being discovered

04:42:38.460 | outside of our solar system.

04:42:40.020 | There's moons being discovered,

04:42:41.380 | now Earth-like planets being discovered.

04:42:43.420 | So like all of that,

04:42:44.500 | if we could do direct imaging of those planets,

04:42:47.020 | more and more and more, there could be some gigantic,

04:42:51.180 | listen, if there is like a Kardashev,

04:42:54.100 | like type two civilization,

04:42:55.780 | we're gonna see the damn thing.

04:42:57.260 | It's gonna be producing a lot of,

04:42:59.940 | it's gonna be radiating a lot of energy.

04:43:02.500 | So the possibility of detecting some of that,

04:43:04.700 | that's also a real possibility

04:43:06.980 | with something like James Webb telescopes,

04:43:08.780 | like those kinds of efforts,

04:43:10.420 | that starts becoming a reality.

04:43:12.340 | - Have you read Andy Weir's "Project Hail Mary"?

04:43:14.660 | - I have not, no.

04:43:15.900 | - You're going to love it.

04:43:18.220 | Like it is basically, almost answering that like,

04:43:23.180 | how could they not see us type of thing almost,

04:43:25.660 | where he creates this incredible,

04:43:28.140 | I don't want to spoil anything,

04:43:29.060 | but it's just the sense that like,

04:43:33.900 | we could have totally different perspectives

04:43:35.500 | with an alien race and not even like consider that,

04:43:39.380 | you know, the two of us are coexisting almost.

04:43:42.300 | I don't want to spoil anything,

04:43:43.140 | 'cause it's really, really, really worth the read.

04:43:45.660 | - Oh, you mean a different perspective,

04:43:47.100 | like the aliens have a different perspective than humans?

04:43:49.620 | - Yeah, like we just like, we see with this visual light.

04:43:52.980 | Someone could see in X-ray, et cetera.

04:43:54.980 | You know, like, and just the way we even come

04:43:57.860 | to the same perspective, like looking and observing

04:44:01.100 | is just so different fundamentally,

04:44:03.700 | that like we could, I mean, it's not quite like that.

04:44:06.220 | It's not like it's like, oh,

04:44:07.180 | they were actually on the Moon and we're,

04:44:08.660 | you know, it's nothing like that.

04:44:09.580 | But it's such a unique and incredible story.

04:44:14.180 | I think Andy Weir's one of the best

04:44:16.620 | science fiction writers, I don't,

04:44:18.060 | I can't say that with much authority,

04:44:19.220 | 'cause I don't listen to much science fiction.

04:44:21.700 | So zero authority.

04:44:22.780 | I really like Andy Weir's books,

04:44:24.380 | and that book is no different.

04:44:25.220 | - But that sounds like, I'm really worried about that.

04:44:27.300 | It sounds like I would really love it.

04:44:30.180 | I've definitely, I've been very,

04:44:32.520 | I've done a lot of reading in my life,

04:44:35.340 | but like the science fiction is one of the things

04:44:37.140 | I've been really, really weak on.

04:44:38.660 | I haven't really read much,

04:44:39.940 | and I just made more and more friends

04:44:41.780 | over the years recently that say

04:44:46.060 | that I absolutely must read some of these things.

04:44:48.460 | - Are you, do you physically read,

04:44:50.000 | or do you do audio books while you run and stuff?

04:44:51.980 | - I do both, yeah.

04:44:53.620 | Well, physically, I sadly don't.

04:44:55.780 | It's a Kindle, right?

04:44:56.900 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

04:44:58.020 | - Yeah, but while I run, I also do,

04:45:02.020 | so I do both.

04:45:02.860 | I do about, on a normal day,

04:45:06.380 | especially now that I've been really focused on reading,

04:45:09.780 | it's about 60 minutes of reading on a Kindle,

04:45:14.780 | and one to two hours, 'cause I run about two hours,

04:45:19.900 | when I don't have like other stuff.

04:45:21.860 | Like today, I won't run, so it's about three hours.

04:45:24.700 | So on average, I would say it's like two,

04:45:26.420 | two and a half hours a day that I read,

04:45:28.740 | and audio books are just the same.

04:45:30.060 | They're a little slower, but they can,

04:45:32.580 | especially for the classics,

04:45:33.620 | they can capture some of the magic with a deep voice,

04:45:36.260 | usually with a British accent.

04:45:37.700 | I love it.

04:45:38.540 | I also read that, listened to, sorry,

04:45:41.400 | that a book on propulsion like two years ago, I remember,

04:45:45.680 | but I remember that was extremely difficult to--

04:45:48.140 | - Ignition?

04:45:48.980 | - Yeah, it was Ignition.

04:45:50.060 | - By Don D. Clarke?

04:45:50.900 | - Yeah, it was very difficult to listen.

04:45:52.860 | - Oh, yeah, I see, I don't read,

04:45:54.500 | I listen while I'm on road trips or running

04:45:56.220 | or stuff like that too, so I swear there's probably 40,

04:45:59.980 | or like not 40, but there's like eight minutes of,

04:46:02.340 | we tried PMZ 15, 13, BM 412, RMNL,

04:46:07.340 | mitral muscle hydrogen, for like,

04:46:11.540 | I swear it's multiple minutes of explaining one trial

04:46:14.780 | on something, 'cause there's just so many

04:46:16.700 | different chemicals they try, I don't know,

04:46:19.140 | it's almost a joke, I literally audibly laughed out loud

04:46:22.040 | listening to it, 'cause I'm like, this is so ridiculous,

04:46:24.380 | I'm sure it makes sense reading it,

04:46:25.540 | but like listening to it is just hilarious,

04:46:27.860 | but it's great though.

04:46:28.960 | - What do you think of some of the challenges

04:46:31.860 | for long-term space travel?

04:46:33.660 | Do you think about this kind of stuff, the biological stuff?

04:46:36.340 | - Yeah.

04:46:37.520 | - Do you worry, do you think about radiation on Mars

04:46:40.860 | and out in space over periods of,

04:46:45.680 | actually the effects on the human body,

04:46:47.460 | forget even the radiation, over periods of months and years?

04:46:51.100 | - Yeah.

04:46:51.940 | I think realistically we have a really good handle

04:46:56.620 | on what the effects are,

04:46:59.660 | and we actually have the solution to like everything,

04:47:02.460 | it's just whether or not we can,

04:47:05.740 | like for instance, low Earth orbit,

04:47:08.380 | one of the biggest challenges eventually

04:47:10.420 | after your long-term space travel

04:47:12.500 | is bone density loss and not having gravity,

04:47:15.180 | you actually have issues with a handful of things,

04:47:18.140 | and artificial gravity is easy in terms of,

04:47:22.180 | relatively easy in terms of space flight.

04:47:24.740 | You can have two vehicles just tethered together

04:47:27.940 | and just spinning, given enough distance

04:47:31.540 | and a decent enough spin velocity,

04:47:33.560 | and you can get one gene relatively easy,

04:47:37.400 | we're talking again, relatively easy,

04:47:39.020 | especially after talking about theoretical physics,

04:47:40.580 | like this is, that's easy stuff.

04:47:43.020 | We haven't done that yet,

04:47:44.500 | but like there's no reason

04:47:46.780 | why we can't produce artificial gravity.

04:47:48.460 | If we say that that's a big enough hurdle

04:47:52.140 | that we absolutely have to overcome this,

04:47:54.140 | okay, cool, we'll just spin up two vehicles

04:47:56.540 | that are going to Mars and people will have,

04:47:58.940 | but that's the thing is Mars is only about,

04:48:00.980 | we'll say six months there,

04:48:03.180 | then you're hanging out on Mars,

04:48:04.340 | you have 38% of gravity, and then six months-ish back.

04:48:08.060 | People live on the International Space Station

04:48:10.660 | at six months stints,

04:48:11.560 | we've had people for basically a year

04:48:13.300 | up on the International Space Station.

04:48:15.060 | It's not like it's, it's not life altering.

04:48:17.620 | Yeah, you have a couple days

04:48:18.760 | of not being able to walk very well,

04:48:20.980 | and you do have some bone density loss

04:48:22.620 | and some other concerns,

04:48:24.260 | but like again, that's, it's solvable.

04:48:26.900 | And I think, you know, the first missions to Mars,

04:48:30.040 | I think it might, we might, we'll probably do the trade.

04:48:33.540 | Is it worth it to like land on Mars

04:48:35.420 | and have a crippled crew

04:48:36.860 | that can't even physically stand yet,

04:48:39.140 | you know, for a day or two

04:48:41.060 | before they get their feet from underneath them?

04:48:43.460 | Or is it, do we need to spin up two spacecraft

04:48:47.020 | or you know, a tether and have,

04:48:48.980 | like you can't do it like Starship,

04:48:50.220 | you know, even though it's 30 feet wide or nine meters wide.

04:48:52.600 | If you spin it on that one axis,

04:48:55.300 | that's not enough space to get 1G

04:48:59.100 | without your feet and your head

04:49:00.340 | being at two different velocities,

04:49:02.460 | so you get really sick,

04:49:03.900 | you always feel like you're falling.

04:49:05.380 | Your brain will tell you that you're falling constantly.

04:49:08.340 | But then again, okay, so this is,

04:49:09.740 | this is the whole thing is,

04:49:11.500 | you know, and I don't know if there's,

04:49:13.340 | we don't really have the data yet on like,

04:49:15.420 | going from zero G, we know the effects of that.

04:49:17.740 | We know the effects of 1G really well,

04:49:19.820 | that's our majority of our data set.

04:49:22.180 | But we don't really have much data

04:49:23.360 | on the long-term effects of, you know,

04:49:26.220 | one sixth gravity, like on the Moon, or 38% gravity.

04:49:29.300 | Is it, is one sixth gravity actually enough

04:49:31.860 | to counteract 95% of the effects of low gravity?

04:49:36.020 | Or is it 15, you know, is it one sixth?

04:49:38.620 | Is it like a linear thing?

04:49:40.140 | Is 38% gravity totally, you know,

04:49:42.980 | 38% as bad as one or whatever, you know,

04:49:45.620 | is it a slight, like where is the doubt on the scale?

04:49:48.540 | So there's a chance that we don't need

04:49:50.000 | anywhere near 1G of gravity to counteract

04:49:52.700 | the bulk majority of these problems.

04:49:54.220 | We could have 0.1G or whatever is the,

04:49:57.020 | you know, the right compromise of vehicle complexity

04:50:01.440 | and human biology and all of these other effects.

04:50:05.380 | Like we, this is absolutely a solvable thing.

04:50:07.620 | - That is, and we figure some of this out

04:50:10.540 | through just experimentation.

04:50:11.900 | - 100%. - Along the way.

04:50:13.340 | - Yep.

04:50:14.180 | - One of this is back to my dating life.

04:50:15.720 | I think one of the essential fundamental research questions

04:50:18.640 | I'm wondering about is the dynamics and,

04:50:23.640 | so the details of how you have sex in space.

04:50:27.840 | Asking for a friend, of course.

04:50:30.700 | I mean, there literally is sort of work on this, right?

04:50:33.700 | 'Cause like, if you think about long-term space travel,

04:50:37.140 | I mean, sex is sort of like,

04:50:42.140 | there's the recreational aspect of sex,

04:50:43.860 | but the most important aspect of sex

04:50:46.160 | for long-term space travel is procreation

04:50:50.220 | is, and also the full biological cycle of that.

04:50:54.120 | So from the embryo, the development of the baby,

04:50:56.740 | the giving the birth and all that kind of stuff.

04:50:59.040 | So like, you know, there's a lot of really difficult

04:51:02.980 | problems of biology there to understand.

04:51:06.900 | And perhaps to solve.

04:51:08.540 | Some of that, again, just like you said brilliantly,

04:51:11.060 | some of that can be just solved with engineering

04:51:13.580 | outside of the human body

04:51:14.620 | by creating a gravitational field like that.

04:51:18.260 | But maybe along the way,

04:51:19.460 | you can figure out how to do that without doing it,

04:51:21.860 | but with balancing the cost and so on.

04:51:23.500 | - And radiation's the other thing.

04:51:25.500 | We know, we have a really good data set

04:51:28.540 | on what radiation and doses do to humans.

04:51:31.020 | Like, we know.

04:51:32.220 | We can measure radiation.

04:51:33.280 | We know, we can approximate, you know,

04:51:35.340 | and kind of give edge cases for the Mars transient

04:51:38.180 | and getting to Mars and being on Mars.

04:51:40.060 | And the simple answer to that is like,

04:51:42.360 | at the end of the day, if we have to, you know,

04:51:44.740 | dig into Mars or find a tunnel to live in

04:51:48.140 | so you get some extra mass in between you

04:51:50.100 | and cosmic radiation, so be it.

04:51:52.140 | Like, that's the answer then.

04:51:53.620 | Again, none of these are like insolvable problems.

04:51:56.500 | They're just things, hurdles you would have to overcome

04:51:59.220 | based on, you know, the risk exposure

04:52:02.260 | and the posture there.

04:52:04.060 | - Imagine being the first child,

04:52:08.580 | the first baby born outside of Earth.

04:52:11.980 | That'd be pretty cool.

04:52:13.780 | - Yeah, that'd be--

04:52:14.620 | - I would love to be alive to see that.

04:52:17.500 | - That'd be a big one.

04:52:18.660 | - I don't know if they'll,

04:52:19.960 | I don't know, 'cause it's such a dangerous thing.

04:52:24.860 | It's so risky.

04:52:25.980 | - I think that could be in our lifetime.

04:52:27.820 | - You think so?

04:52:28.660 | - Yeah.

04:52:29.580 | I would like to think, in a perfect world,

04:52:31.500 | if we're thinking futurism, that in 30 to 50 years,

04:52:35.020 | I definitely think we could have a full-time,

04:52:36.900 | like, permanent major civilizations,

04:52:40.380 | you know, like what Blue Origin wants to develop,

04:52:44.540 | where they have a huge sphere, you know,

04:52:47.180 | and you're doing a lot of, especially heavy industry

04:52:51.460 | off of Earth so you're not polluting Earth.

04:52:52.940 | Like, that makes so much sense to me.

04:52:55.100 | Yeah, I think we could live in a lifetime

04:53:00.180 | where, you know, we thought that since the '50s and '60s

04:53:02.980 | that people are gonna be living and working in space

04:53:04.820 | like crazy, and at any given point,

04:53:06.780 | we're lucky to have 12 people in space today.

04:53:09.020 | But I really think in our lifetime,

04:53:12.300 | we're finally getting to that point of,

04:53:14.220 | yeah, that that's a reality.

04:53:17.300 | - Let me, 'cause you mentioned Blue Origin,

04:53:19.740 | can we just lay out some of the competitors to SpaceX?

04:53:23.380 | So much of what we talked about is SpaceX,

04:53:27.140 | specifically because they're sort of

04:53:28.940 | pushing the boundaries of what's possible

04:53:30.460 | in the commercial space life.

04:53:31.840 | But there's a lot of, like you said,

04:53:33.300 | incredible work being done for large companies

04:53:36.100 | and small companies, startups, and so on.

04:53:38.420 | So who are the competitors to SpaceX?

04:53:41.020 | ULA, you know, Launch Alliance, Blue Origin,

04:53:44.060 | there's Virgin, is it Galactic Orbit?

04:53:47.540 | - Orbit would be the competitor.

04:53:49.580 | - Virgin Orbit, there's Rocket Labs,

04:53:52.660 | Electron Rocket that you mentioned.

04:53:54.420 | There's the folks you covered, Firefly?

04:53:58.220 | - Yep, yep.

04:53:59.060 | - And what are we missing?

04:54:00.980 | There's the EPIC Space Launch System from NASA,

04:54:05.620 | I guess that is?

04:54:06.580 | - Technically NASA, but prime contractor Boeing.

04:54:09.100 | - Boeing, Lockheed?

04:54:10.460 | - Lockheed, yeah, Northrop is the boosters, yep.

04:54:13.380 | - Nice, so what's interesting to say

04:54:16.180 | to lay out the land here that you're excited about?

04:54:18.580 | - Just in general, I think if you aren't working

04:54:21.260 | on a reusable, some form of reusable vehicle,

04:54:24.020 | like physically working on it, pen to paper,

04:54:26.940 | not beyond pen to paper, like bending metal

04:54:29.500 | for a reusable vehicle, you're gone, you're toast.

04:54:32.620 | I think we're well into that being the only provable

04:54:37.420 | way forward, the only way you're gonna compete

04:54:40.900 | and survive is a reusable rocket.

04:54:43.180 | Fully reusable would be great,

04:54:44.540 | but that's obviously massively aspirational still,

04:54:47.860 | but it will come.

04:54:49.140 | But to me, the list you pretty much had it right on the head,

04:54:54.820 | Astra was another orbital rocket company.

04:54:57.420 | There's a lot of companies, and I think right now

04:55:01.460 | the ones that I personally really believe in,

04:55:05.220 | Rocket Lab is awesome.

04:55:08.260 | I really think that they are one of the few

04:55:10.900 | that I believe can actually build a Falcon 9 class rocket,

04:55:13.800 | like today, with their technology, with their knowledge,

04:55:17.820 | with their investments, with their funding,

04:55:21.060 | and they've proven themselves.

04:55:21.980 | There's very few, they have actually made it look easy.

04:55:25.500 | I think there's a lot of startups and a lot of new rocket.

04:55:27.820 | There's too many launch providers

04:55:29.940 | popping out of the woodwork right now.

04:55:31.420 | They won't all survive, of course.

04:55:33.500 | I think realistically, if you look at like airplanes,

04:55:35.860 | how many airplane, there's a handful

04:55:38.700 | of airplane manufacturers.

04:55:39.820 | There's not hundreds and thousands

04:55:41.420 | of airplane manufacturers.

04:55:43.100 | I think it'll be a similar thing for space flight.

04:55:44.900 | I think we'll see, realistically,

04:55:48.860 | in the terms of jumbo jets and passengers,

04:55:50.780 | there's basically two.

04:55:52.340 | There's Airbus and there's Boeing.

04:55:54.040 | So I think in the long run,

04:55:58.740 | there'll be two or three major players.

04:56:01.660 | I think there'll be 10 minor,

04:56:05.820 | like as far as launch providers,

04:56:07.620 | as far as the ones actually leaving Earth

04:56:09.340 | and getting into orbit, I just don't think

04:56:10.980 | there's a ton of room for individuality, really.

04:56:14.780 | - Yeah, I would love to see a really serious competitor

04:56:18.900 | to SpaceX in the way that SpaceX does things.

04:56:21.420 | I don't know if ULA is quite the right kind of competitor.

04:56:26.420 | - Let me say this.

04:56:28.540 | ULA has all of the potential,

04:56:31.100 | but just operationally, Lockheed Martin and Boeing's

04:56:35.420 | love child, they're kind of set up

04:56:38.940 | in a far too traditional manner,

04:56:41.380 | where they just really aren't given the opportunity

04:56:43.980 | to innovate like a lot of these startups are.

04:56:46.740 | - So Rocket Lab is a little bit more of that nature.

04:56:49.660 | What do you think about just Blue Origin in general?

04:56:53.100 | - Blue Origin's, man.

04:56:54.900 | What Blue Origin has done with New Shepard is amazing,

04:56:59.240 | and people just laud it because it's suborbital

04:57:02.820 | and it looks very phallic.

04:57:04.640 | - So I guess the meme matters also in this modern day.

04:57:10.060 | - But it's sad because people don't see

04:57:11.540 | what they are also working on, which is New Glenn.

04:57:14.220 | I see comments almost every day still of like,

04:57:16.780 | it doesn't matter 'cause they're working on tiny.

04:57:19.580 | It's like, no, New Glenn is more powerful

04:57:21.760 | and more capable than Falcon Heavy.

04:57:23.500 | New Glenn is almost more of a competitor to,

04:57:26.220 | not quite, to Starship, but it's almost in that class.

04:57:28.620 | It's a heavy lift launch vehicle.

04:57:31.060 | It's huge, it's crazy, it'll be nuts.

04:57:33.780 | They're very actively working on it.

04:57:35.660 | I still think we're three years away from it launching,

04:57:38.700 | but that's a very strong competitor

04:57:40.660 | in the class of rockets that SpaceX is currently making.

04:57:44.020 | So SpaceX is currently leading the way,

04:57:45.980 | but it could become a close race.

04:57:49.800 | - For now, we'll ignore SpaceX

04:57:53.780 | and we'll just kind of talk about,

04:57:55.100 | I think who's kind of coming around the corner here.

04:57:57.900 | So let me just do a quick overview.

04:57:59.860 | I'm gonna shoot myself in the foot

04:58:01.460 | for getting some cool people here

04:58:03.180 | and some exciting companies,

04:58:04.380 | but Relativity is one that,

04:58:05.860 | if you, you should definitely get Tim Ellis on the show,

04:58:08.340 | who is the CEO of Relativity.

04:58:10.960 | They're doing 3D printed rockets.

04:58:13.100 | They're the ones that have the world's largest 3D printer.

04:58:15.580 | They're getting really close to their first orbital launch.

04:58:18.840 | The cool thing about them,

04:58:19.700 | the reason that I think they're exciting,

04:58:21.540 | the reason that I think they have the potential

04:58:24.420 | is just how quickly they can iterate.

04:58:27.020 | I think 3D printing a rocket is really dumb.

04:58:29.220 | I think iterating with 3D printing on a rocket is brilliant

04:58:33.360 | because you can literally change software

04:58:35.580 | and have very little,

04:58:38.020 | upload a file and have a new rocket.

04:58:40.140 | That's amazing.

04:58:41.500 | So in terms of long-term iterative process,

04:58:45.340 | if we're really talking about hitting the ground running

04:58:47.740 | and just seeing where the evolution takes you,

04:58:50.660 | I think that's about as good as you can get.

04:58:52.940 | I think what SpaceX is doing at Starbase,

04:58:54.460 | just physically bending cheap steel

04:58:56.020 | is probably also a very valid solution.

04:58:58.540 | So I really think, and they have the engineering chops.

04:59:01.420 | I think they've got some amazing people there.

04:59:03.900 | Again, Rocket Lab, I adore what they work on.

04:59:06.980 | And like everyone, there's a caveat here

04:59:10.120 | that everything takes longer.

04:59:11.620 | Anything any company tells you,

04:59:13.260 | it's two or three times longer, just period.

04:59:15.460 | Rocket Lab's no different.

04:59:17.340 | But I really, they're working on a Neutron rocket

04:59:19.660 | that's gonna be like, I think 8,000 to 15,000 kilograms

04:59:23.780 | to lower Earth orbit.

04:59:24.620 | It's a good medium class rocket.

04:59:26.340 | Will compete right along with Falcon 9, hopefully.

04:59:29.500 | - By the way, Neutron would be its name, right?

04:59:31.740 | - Yep, so I like Neutron.

04:59:33.220 | - It's not some kind of fascinating new physics breakthrough

04:59:35.500 | where they're using neutrons.

04:59:36.580 | - No, no, but they are using,

04:59:38.140 | they're also using liquid methane and liquid oxygen.

04:59:41.500 | I just think it's a really, it seems like a great rocket.

04:59:44.640 | And assuming they can actually get it flying

04:59:46.900 | in two or three years, I think they're gonna be,

04:59:49.180 | it's here to stay, you know?

04:59:51.220 | I'd be remiss, right now I'm editing a video

04:59:53.120 | from an interview with Stoke Aerospace

04:59:54.680 | out in Kent, Washington.

04:59:56.280 | It was just one of these companies

04:59:58.620 | that they have a long ways to go.

05:00:00.400 | Like they're still in the very,

05:00:02.320 | they're behind the curve, frankly,

05:00:03.880 | in terms of launch vehicles right now.

05:00:05.640 | Because like I said, there's so many

05:00:07.540 | coming out of the woodwork.

05:00:08.640 | But the idea they're working on,

05:00:11.120 | their solution to a fully reusable rocket is amazing.

05:00:15.560 | One of the coolest concepts I've ever seen.

05:00:17.840 | - Are you gonna cover it in the video?

05:00:19.080 | - Yeah, yep, yep.

05:00:20.040 | That'll be hopefully coming out in the next,

05:00:21.480 | depending on what the schedule is down there.

05:00:24.120 | I'm actively editing that as we speak,

05:00:26.080 | and it is so cool.

05:00:28.220 | I mean, it is like, it's genius.

05:00:31.400 | And if they can actually get it to work,

05:00:33.720 | I can see them merging.

05:00:34.720 | I can for sure see someone potentially,

05:00:36.820 | like I perfectly, in a perfect world,

05:00:38.840 | they've merged with Rocket Lab.

05:00:40.520 | They, Stoke develops the upper stage,

05:00:43.040 | and maybe even the engines, they are.

05:00:44.960 | The two guys, the CEO, the co-founders of that company,

05:00:48.000 | they are engine, like propulsion engineer magnificence.

05:00:53.200 | They have, they used to, they both have worked at Blue.

05:00:55.880 | They developed engines in a hurry there,

05:00:57.400 | and then left Blue when it felt like

05:00:59.240 | it was getting too slow for them.

05:01:00.360 | And now they are, I mean, these guys fired

05:01:03.000 | a 15-chambered rocket engine,

05:01:05.800 | instead of four from the Soviet,

05:01:07.360 | we're talking 15 chambers, single turbo pump,

05:01:09.660 | 70 times in the month of October.

05:01:12.860 | - Wow.

05:01:14.180 | - That's impressive. - Wow.

05:01:15.860 | - And that's like, that was on average,

05:01:17.620 | if you think about like days off, time off,

05:01:20.420 | parts changing, over twice a day on average

05:01:24.340 | of a Hydrolux engine, that's insane.

05:01:27.120 | So I love them, and I hope the best for them.

05:01:30.380 | (laughs)

05:01:31.580 | But they're also topical right now.

05:01:32.940 | They're at top of my head, so.

05:01:34.660 | - What about Firefly?

05:01:35.940 | - What I like about Firefly,

05:01:37.680 | they've already got kind of a traditional aerospace backing.

05:01:40.580 | They're starting to buddy up a lot with Northrop Grumman.

05:01:42.380 | So they're gonna be building the booster stage for Antares,

05:01:45.400 | which is currently flying only out of Wallops, Virginia,

05:01:48.380 | and is one of the only other commercial providers

05:01:50.480 | for the International Space Station.

05:01:51.500 | And Northrop Grumman is a very traditional

05:01:53.900 | aerospace company, you know,

05:01:55.140 | like lots of solid rocket boosters,

05:01:57.240 | and they've purchased, ironically,

05:01:59.260 | their current Antares is reliant on Russian engines

05:02:02.980 | and Ukrainian boosters, two things that I don't think

05:02:05.620 | you're gonna be able to get your hands on too much anymore.

05:02:07.940 | So they're looking to some US propulsion and stages.

05:02:12.940 | So they actually are partnering with Firefly,

05:02:16.660 | and their new Antares rocket will be a first stage

05:02:20.060 | built entirely by Firefly.

05:02:21.340 | So I'm excited that Firefly already has

05:02:23.780 | the propulsion technology.

05:02:25.900 | And they actually developed, ironically,

05:02:27.900 | their tap-off cycle engine was developed

05:02:30.220 | in partnership with Ukraine, with Ukrainian engineers,

05:02:33.000 | who developed the whole turbo pump system.

05:02:36.260 | So it's like, it's this cool meddling of these worlds.

05:02:41.020 | Their former CEO, Tom Rakusik, was,

05:02:44.700 | like I have an interview with him,

05:02:45.740 | and he's, anyone that can just spout nuances and facts,

05:02:50.740 | I just love.

05:02:51.620 | I just soaked that guy's information up as best I could,

05:02:54.580 | 'cause he is brilliant.

05:02:56.260 | Literally a doctor, a rocket doctor, you know.

05:02:59.780 | So yeah, I mean, that's what, like you said,

05:03:01.940 | the fascinating thing about these folks, they're legit.

05:03:04.420 | They're such great engineers,

05:03:06.300 | the people that bring these rockets to life.

05:03:08.300 | And then there's all this stuff that we know

05:03:11.180 | and don't know about in China and other parts

05:03:14.340 | and other nations that are putting stuff into orbit.

05:03:16.620 | One of the sad things also is like,

05:03:18.500 | with Lockheed and Boeing is,

05:03:21.460 | it's just military applications in general.

05:03:24.820 | There's so much technology that's currently being developed

05:03:28.980 | that we probably know nothing about.

05:03:30.780 | And it makes me a little bit sad, of course.

05:03:34.260 | But for several reasons.

05:03:37.180 | One is that the use of that technology has really much,

05:03:41.660 | it's not that inspired, it's like a very military focus.

05:03:46.060 | - Yeah, it's to kill someone.

05:03:47.100 | - It's to kill someone, yeah.

05:03:48.860 | There's not even like a side application.

05:03:53.020 | And the big one is that the secret,

05:03:55.220 | it's shrouded in secrecy

05:03:57.580 | as opposed to being a source of inspiration.

05:03:59.700 | - Yeah, 100%.

05:04:00.620 | - But that's the way of the world.

05:04:02.620 | Like what was that one plane that you covered

05:04:04.660 | that was like we know nothing about?

05:04:06.820 | - Oh, the X-37B.

05:04:08.060 | - The X-37B.

05:04:09.260 | - Yeah, orbited for over 900 days and returned.

05:04:11.780 | Like, yeah, I wanna know about that thing.

05:04:13.220 | - What's that thing up to?

05:04:14.180 | - I don't know.

05:04:15.100 | That's what's, it's so frustrating.

05:04:17.100 | We know when it launches, people,

05:04:19.900 | amateurs track and know,

05:04:21.980 | they even will be like, oh, it changed orbit.

05:04:24.060 | It raised and lowered its orbit, blah, blah, blah.

05:04:26.260 | We generally have just almost no idea

05:04:28.420 | what it's doing up there.

05:04:29.540 | And it just saddens me 'cause I wanna know.

05:04:32.780 | And it's awesome.

05:04:33.620 | It's a great vehicle.

05:04:35.380 | - War, what is it good for?

05:04:37.620 | You mentioned Kerbal Space Program, the video game.

05:04:41.820 | Someone asked you what video game you recommend

05:04:44.140 | for learning about space and rockets,

05:04:45.660 | and you said, duh, Kerbal Space Program.

05:04:49.700 | So tell me about this game.

05:04:50.900 | What is this game?

05:04:52.060 | And I also saw, heard that a second one is coming out.

05:04:56.180 | So what, you know, I've been playing more games recently

05:05:01.180 | 'cause games are fun and they remind you

05:05:05.980 | that life is awesome.

05:05:07.180 | So why should I play this game?

05:05:10.300 | - If you wanna learn about rockets,

05:05:12.460 | how to fly, how to build, how to get into orbit,

05:05:14.900 | how to get to other planets,

05:05:16.740 | there's no better way to learn about rockets

05:05:19.300 | than playing Kerbal Space Program.

05:05:20.140 | - So what does it entail?

05:05:21.380 | Like, do you actually like--

05:05:22.940 | - It's like SimCity and Microsoft Flight Simulator

05:05:26.460 | for rockets.

05:05:27.460 | - Oh, interesting.

05:05:28.300 | So you will get to like, what, do you design the rockets?

05:05:31.220 | - Yeah, yeah.

05:05:33.180 | It's, okay, so I started playing it in like 2014, I think,

05:05:37.140 | around as I'm like falling in love with space.

05:05:39.460 | And I became obsessed with this game.

05:05:41.940 | Like literally you, you know, you take a,

05:05:45.740 | like you get, boop, a little command module.

05:05:47.860 | Click, you click on a fuel tank.

05:05:49.140 | Boop, you choose your engine.

05:05:50.260 | Boop, you choose a stage connector.

05:05:51.700 | Boop, you connect more tanks and build these space planes

05:05:55.060 | and fantastical things.

05:05:56.460 | And it's all like physics-based.

05:05:58.380 | And it's available, this sounds like a commercial.

05:06:00.180 | It's available on PC and Mac and console.

05:06:03.140 | Like it's available everywhere.

05:06:04.500 | - But wait, there's more.

05:06:05.540 | - But wait, there's more.

05:06:06.460 | And--

05:06:07.300 | - You said like you streamed yourself playing this.

05:06:09.860 | Are any of those videos up still?

05:06:11.260 | - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

05:06:12.100 | There's some of my, actually the first videos

05:06:13.740 | I ever uploaded to YouTube were like recaptured streams

05:06:17.740 | from Twitch that I just physically uploaded to YouTube.

05:06:20.820 | - This is awesome.

05:06:21.780 | - And so it's me playing Kerbal.

05:06:23.620 | I used to do this kind of like a podcast style thing.

05:06:26.620 | I should get back into this

05:06:27.580 | 'cause it's one of my favorite things I ever did.

05:06:28.780 | It's called, we called it Todayish in Spaceflight History,

05:06:31.220 | but these days I'd probably just play Kerbal.

05:06:33.780 | But I had my friend come sit next to me.

05:06:35.860 | His name's Jacob.

05:06:37.500 | And he is a former professional pole vaulter.

05:06:41.140 | Just this really, knows nothing about rockets.

05:06:44.340 | - Yes.

05:06:45.180 | - Knows nothing about space.

05:06:46.020 | Hilarious, like in the sweetest, most fun way.

05:06:48.980 | He, you know, as an adult asked me

05:06:51.100 | which is bigger, the Earth or the moon?

05:06:52.980 | And I love that for him.

05:06:54.100 | You know, that's fantastic.

05:06:55.660 | He's just a delightful human.

05:06:57.220 | He would sit next to me.

05:06:58.420 | We would recreate a historical spaceflight mission

05:07:00.580 | in Kerbal Space Program.

05:07:01.620 | And he would just sit there and play guitar

05:07:03.260 | and sing about what I'm like doing and asking questions.

05:07:06.260 | And it's still one of my favorite things I've ever done.

05:07:08.300 | - Yeah, you should definitely do something like that.

05:07:09.940 | So basically just, yeah, shoot the shit with a friend.

05:07:14.540 | - Get their curiosity going.

05:07:15.900 | Let them just sit there and ask questions.

05:07:18.060 | It was awesome.

05:07:18.900 | Like, I mean, yeah, those are some,

05:07:21.700 | I've done it a handful of times.

05:07:23.060 | I think we probably did like 20 or 30 episodes or something.

05:07:25.060 | And it's definitely something

05:07:27.100 | I would like to get back to doing.

05:07:28.340 | - Can you in the game, like go to the moon?

05:07:31.460 | - Yeah, so it's technically a different solar system.

05:07:33.660 | It's the Kerbal system and you're on the planet Kerbin.

05:07:37.420 | So there's the Mun, M-U-N.

05:07:39.860 | There's a second moon in this system on this planet.

05:07:43.940 | It's called Minmus.

05:07:45.180 | - They didn't want to pay licensing fees or what?

05:07:47.340 | (laughing)

05:07:48.780 | - Well, it's just a little easier.

05:07:49.940 | It's a little bit smaller.

05:07:51.100 | So the physics are easier.

05:07:53.220 | - Oh, so it tries to be consistent with physics.

05:07:55.220 | - Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

05:07:56.060 | The physics are all like real world physics.

05:07:58.980 | And I mean, there's aero simulations.

05:08:00.540 | There's all of it's like one-to-one,

05:08:03.540 | for earth physics. - That's awesome.

05:08:05.060 | - It's just on an easier scale, solar system.

05:08:07.500 | So it's easier to navigate.

05:08:09.580 | But there's still like, there's a planet called Eve

05:08:11.380 | that's kind of like Venus.

05:08:13.060 | So it has a really thick atmosphere,

05:08:14.700 | really thick, really soupy.

05:08:16.460 | It's in a lot more gravity.

05:08:18.620 | So it's just really, really hard to get off of.

05:08:21.500 | It's relatively easy to land on Eve,

05:08:23.420 | but like that's kind of like the ultimate boss in the game

05:08:25.540 | is like getting off of Eve.

05:08:26.700 | So that's one of my favorite things to do

05:08:28.540 | is build these crafts to get to Eve and try to return home.

05:08:32.580 | - You mentioned that there's almost like a podcast thing.

05:08:34.700 | You also did our Ludicrous Future.

05:08:37.180 | Is there a podcast in your future?

05:08:40.820 | Are you thinking, do you enjoy the medium?

05:08:42.900 | You're so incredibly good at talking.

05:08:45.420 | It's less effort to sort of to produce.

05:08:50.420 | Is that something in the back of your mind also?

05:08:53.460 | - Oh man, I love talking.

05:08:57.180 | - Yeah, and you're very good at it.

05:08:58.660 | I mean, yeah.

05:08:59.500 | - I find that I, it's just, the problem with,

05:09:05.180 | for me with podcasts, and I think it's the podcasts

05:09:07.700 | that I've done, have tried to be relatively topical

05:09:10.420 | about like the current spaceflight affairs.

05:09:13.380 | And four, three or four years ago,

05:09:15.580 | that was actually manageable for me to keep up with.

05:09:19.780 | These days, man, I can't keep,

05:09:22.180 | I just can't keep up with it.

05:09:24.300 | I gave up on trying to be super topical.

05:09:26.220 | And I realized that maybe my biggest talent

05:09:29.460 | and the things that resonate most with people

05:09:31.620 | is just trying to explain the basics and the root.

05:09:36.500 | So I'm really just trying to like,

05:09:38.220 | I'm trying to do less live streams if I can,

05:09:41.860 | but then again, like "Star Trek," I gotta stream that.

05:09:44.060 | There's no way I'm not gonna do that.

05:09:45.660 | But I'm really just trying to get back

05:09:46.820 | to like making the deep dive videos

05:09:48.940 | where I have no limit on how long and how deep

05:09:52.100 | and just really go for it,

05:09:53.420 | 'cause that's actually what I love to do the best.

05:09:54.740 | - Yeah, I mean, that's like views aside,

05:09:58.020 | those are just works of genius

05:09:59.460 | and you're getting better and better at them.

05:10:00.940 | And like, that's the,

05:10:02.700 | that in terms of the beautiful things

05:10:06.580 | you can create in this world, those are that.

05:10:08.340 | So like, if you continue,

05:10:09.620 | especially where the way space travel is developing,

05:10:13.180 | like that, your voice is very much needed.

05:10:15.260 | So I think it's wise to do what you do best.

05:10:20.260 | - And I think I'm feeling more and more,

05:10:22.740 | especially this last year,

05:10:23.620 | I did a lot of like live streaming and traveling

05:10:25.980 | back and forth between Florida and California

05:10:28.100 | and here and just handling major, like big live streams,

05:10:32.540 | really stressed myself out.

05:10:33.900 | And at the end of the day, I was like,

05:10:35.100 | all of this is taking away from my ability to make videos.

05:10:38.100 | And that's ideally, honestly,

05:10:40.220 | if I like had my choice of things,

05:10:41.940 | I would just ignore everything else

05:10:43.860 | and just sit and lock myself in my house for a year

05:10:47.980 | and just sit there and make videos

05:10:49.380 | and go and travel every other month, you know, for fun,

05:10:52.660 | like not for space stuff,

05:10:54.500 | just go and do some light traveling, you know, some--

05:10:58.140 | - Like around the moon or what?

05:11:00.540 | - Yeah, just some light traveling.

05:11:02.240 | - What advice would you give to young folks

05:11:07.300 | or just folks struggling to find their way in life,

05:11:10.820 | whether they're in high school, college, or beyond,

05:11:13.540 | like how to have a life they can be proud of,

05:11:15.660 | how to have a career they can be proud of?

05:11:17.540 | You've had a really interesting journey yourself.

05:11:20.080 | What from that can you draw, give advice to others?

05:11:25.720 | - To be honest, like I feel like it's so painfully obvious

05:11:29.980 | to follow your heart and follow like what makes you happy

05:11:32.860 | that I'm just shocked that people allow themselves

05:11:36.420 | to sit on like mediocrity, you know,

05:11:38.100 | like to just sit there and be like,

05:11:39.020 | well, this is just what I do.

05:11:40.260 | You know, and for a lot of people, that's perfectly fine.

05:11:42.820 | Like I have, you know, some of my best friends

05:11:44.820 | are clocking in and out and they're perfectly happy.

05:11:47.260 | They have a wonderful life.

05:11:48.180 | Absolutely no judgment there, of course.

05:11:50.180 | But for people that are stuck feeling like they're not sure

05:11:55.220 | of, you know, what's next

05:11:56.780 | and how to bring light into their world,

05:11:59.620 | you really just gotta listen to like

05:12:00.880 | what does make you happy.

05:12:02.260 | You know, people feel guilty about,

05:12:03.580 | oh, I play video games for eight hours.

05:12:05.660 | Then start learning how to make a video game.

05:12:08.020 | Learn how to do reviews of video games or make,

05:12:10.320 | there's so many, you can work in the video game industry.

05:12:12.900 | You know, you don't have to isolate your love

05:12:15.020 | from your work, you know, and it's just funny that we,

05:12:18.660 | you know, maybe you feel guilty that you drink too much.

05:12:22.980 | Okay, I don't know if this is a good advice.

05:12:25.340 | Go learn how to make alcohol, you know, be a--

05:12:28.260 | - Start a liquor company.

05:12:29.100 | - Yeah, start a liquor company.

05:12:29.940 | I mean, maybe that's a careful advice.

05:12:31.460 | - No, it's great advice, but it's also in your own story,

05:12:34.780 | it seems like you've almost stumbled on,

05:12:37.060 | like some of it is just exploration

05:12:40.060 | and keeping your mind and heart open

05:12:42.660 | to discovering that thing that grabs you, right?

05:12:45.180 | It's not--

05:12:46.020 | - What do you fall asleep thinking about?

05:12:47.180 | You know, like--

05:12:48.020 | - But you stumbled on the space almost accidentally, right?

05:12:51.300 | I mean--

05:12:52.140 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

05:12:53.060 | - I get, would you, when you were doing,

05:12:55.380 | being a professional photographer, would you have known?

05:12:58.060 | - Oh, no.

05:12:59.100 | Well, do you wanna know what I wanted to be

05:13:00.580 | when I was a kid?

05:13:01.420 | - What's that?

05:13:02.240 | - Well, first, when I was young, I wanted to be a tractor.

05:13:04.020 | I'm not quite sure I understood how that works.

05:13:07.140 | Then I wanted to be a scorpion trainer.

05:13:09.500 | Thought I could train 'em to cut people's lawns.

05:13:11.500 | - Better and better.

05:13:12.340 | - Yep, yep.

05:13:13.180 | And then, honestly, the majority of my childhood--

05:13:15.620 | - Cut people's lawns, got it.

05:13:16.660 | I think your understanding of physics early on

05:13:18.340 | was just a little--

05:13:20.060 | - The pincers, man, the pincers.

05:13:21.660 | Then from like probably six until like early college,

05:13:26.820 | I wanted to be a prosthetic engineer.

05:13:29.220 | And never once did I think about anything rockets, really.

05:13:34.220 | I had like a space shuttle poster.

05:13:37.260 | I had some space shuttle Legos.

05:13:39.340 | I liked space and I knew of the space shuttle,

05:13:42.620 | but it was far down the list

05:13:45.500 | as far as things that I thought were cool.

05:13:47.620 | Ninja Turtles, Lamborghini Countach,

05:13:51.900 | B-17G Flying Fortress.

05:13:54.140 | Yeah, I guess that means--

05:13:55.820 | - If you just keep your heart open

05:13:57.700 | to falling in love with an idea, with a passion, yeah.

05:14:00.540 | You could start from that,

05:14:02.300 | from Ninja Turtles and scorpions cutting lawns

05:14:05.260 | to being one of the best, one of the top educators,

05:14:10.260 | inspirational figures in space,

05:14:13.540 | and actually traveling around the moon.

05:14:16.060 | And who knows, maybe one day stepping foot on the moon

05:14:18.580 | and Mars, even though you say you're not interested.

05:14:21.240 | It seems like you stating that you're not interested

05:14:24.140 | in certain things somehow results in you--

05:14:27.620 | - And you're doing those things.

05:14:29.180 | - My friends joke that I'm gonna be the first person

05:14:31.140 | to go to the moon against their will.

05:14:32.500 | - Yeah, like, all right, all right.

05:14:34.980 | - Dang it.

05:14:35.820 | - This is, all right, what's the food like up there?

05:14:37.540 | - Guys, we're gonna start a fundraiser.

05:14:38.540 | Please, Tim just doesn't wanna go.

05:14:42.060 | - Definitely don't want to do it.

05:14:43.940 | All right, Tim, you're an incredible person.

05:14:45.780 | Thank you so much for everything you do.

05:14:47.060 | I've been a fan of yours for a long time.

05:14:49.420 | Not just the content, but just who you are as a human being,

05:14:52.100 | just how excited you are for everything.

05:14:54.300 | It's just an inspiration, you're a joy to watch.

05:14:56.660 | Thank you for being you.

05:14:57.900 | Thank you for doing the stuff you're doing.

05:15:00.500 | I can't wait to see what you do next, man.

05:15:03.100 | Thank you so much for talking with me today.

05:15:04.860 | That was awesome.

05:15:05.700 | - Thank you so much, it's my pleasure.

05:15:08.020 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation with Tim Dodd.

05:15:10.700 | To support this podcast,

05:15:12.020 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

05:15:14.820 | And now, let me leave you with some words from H.G. Wells.

05:15:18.700 | Life, forever dying to be born afresh,

05:15:21.980 | forever young and eager,

05:15:24.080 | will presently stand upon this earth

05:15:26.020 | as upon a footstool,

05:15:27.740 | and stretch out its realm amidst the stars.

05:15:31.420 | Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

05:15:35.580 | (upbeat music)

05:15:38.160 | (upbeat music)

05:15:40.740 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Tim Dodd: SpaceX, Starship, Rocket Engines, and Future of Space Travel | Lex Fridman Podcast #356

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