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00:00:00.000 | I am James Hong and welcome to the Surpassing Value Podcast.
00:00:15.620 | The fuel and desire for this podcast was born out of a compulsion to flesh out what's
00:00:19.740 | been going on in the midst of an ocean of megaphones that may not actually withstand
00:00:24.600 | the test of scrutiny.
00:00:26.620 | As a signpost theologian, I will do my best to filter out the impurities and point people
00:00:32.320 | in the right direction.
00:00:39.740 | This is another one of those episodes where the surpassing value meets brain community
00:00:44.380 | church.
00:00:45.380 | For this episode, I invited Pastor Peter Kim and Pastor Mark Lim to talk about this emerging
00:00:51.860 | trend called deconstructionism.
00:00:54.900 | If you don't know what it is, I explained it to some degree in the beginning of the
00:00:58.620 | recording, but to get us started, let me quote to you Brandon Briscoe, he's a pastor over
00:01:04.580 | at Midtown Baptist.
00:01:07.100 | He writes this concerning deconstructionism, "In its most innocuous form, deconstruction
00:01:14.380 | may be promoted as a healthy reassessment of personal bias and ingrained denominational
00:01:20.140 | positions, but upon closer examination tends to institute new bias that is inherently critical
00:01:27.140 | to the concept of biblical certainty.
00:01:30.080 | The Christian deconstructionist approach is often exactly what Derrida intended it to
00:01:35.820 | be.
00:01:36.820 | The employment of philosophy, liberal forms of literary criticism, scientific theory,
00:01:43.380 | historical record, and other human disciplines intended to scrutinize the literality of long
00:01:49.860 | held biblical teachings in order to replace them with more abstract and progressive perspectives.
00:01:58.140 | Christian deconstruction as a culture and methodology has become more than a re-examination.
00:02:04.020 | It is a premeditated tearing down of biblical authority."
00:02:10.180 | For the rest of the episode, the pastors and I flesh out what this is, why it's dangerous,
00:02:16.620 | and try to expose the inherent deceptiveness of this phenomenon.
00:02:22.100 | Towards the end of the recording, I quote Spurgeon on this issue because I just found
00:02:26.660 | him to be so helpful.
00:02:28.540 | I only quoted him once in the recording, but I found myself unable to resist the temptation
00:02:35.700 | from quoting him again, so I'll just do that right now.
00:02:39.620 | Before I do that, I want to read to you 2 Peter 1.10, and then I'll quote to you a portion
00:02:44.340 | of Spurgeon's commentary on that verse.
00:02:46.780 | 2 Peter 1.10 reads, "Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more diligent to make
00:02:52.740 | certain about his calling and choice of you.
00:02:55.460 | For as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble."
00:02:59.860 | Spurgeon regarding that verse says this, "Come, then, here is the second point good advice.
00:03:07.200 | Make your calling and election sure.
00:03:10.380 | Not towards God, for they are sure to him.
00:03:13.220 | Make them sure to yourself.
00:03:15.240 | Be quite certain of them.
00:03:16.660 | Be fully satisfied about them.
00:03:18.960 | In many of our dissenting places of worship, very great encouragement is held out to doubting.
00:03:24.420 | A person comes before the pastor and says, 'Oh, sir, I am so afraid I am not converted.
00:03:30.380 | I tremble lest I should not be a child of God.
00:03:33.220 | Oh, I fear I am not one of the Lord's elect.'
00:03:36.620 | The pastor will put out his hands to him and say, 'Dear brother, you are all right so
00:03:40.940 | as long as you can doubt.'
00:03:42.620 | Now I hold that is altogether wrong.
00:03:45.780 | Scripture never says, 'He that doubts shall be saved, but he that believes.'
00:03:51.140 | It may be true that the man is in a good state.
00:03:54.420 | It may be true that he needs a little comfort.
00:03:57.540 | But his doubts are not good things, nor ought we to encourage him in his doubts.
00:04:02.420 | Our business is to encourage him out of his doubts and by the grace of God to urge him
00:04:07.460 | to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, not to doubt it, but to
00:04:12.940 | be sure of it.
00:04:14.220 | Ah, I have heard some hypocritical doubters say, 'Oh, I have had such doubts whether
00:04:18.940 | I am the Lord's, and I have thought to myself, and so have I very great doubts about you.'
00:04:24.500 | I have heard some say they do tremble because they are afraid they are not the Lord's people,
00:04:30.220 | and the lazy fellows sit in their pews on Sunday and just listen to the sermon, but
00:04:35.260 | they never think of giving diligence.
00:04:37.980 | They never do good, perhaps are inconsistent in their lives, and then talk about doubting.
00:04:43.580 | It is quite right they should doubt.
00:04:46.180 | It is well they should, and if they did not doubt, we might begin to doubt for them.
00:04:51.500 | Idle men have no right to assurance.
00:04:54.580 | The Scripture says, 'Give diligence to make your calling and election sure.'
00:05:00.900 | Full assurance is an excellent attainment.
00:05:03.720 | It is profitable for a man to be certain in this life and absolutely sure of his own calling
00:05:10.220 | and election.
00:05:11.860 | But how can he be sure?"
00:05:16.140 | Remember this because as we delve into this discussion, you'll soon see the relevance.
00:05:21.220 | And I know I left off with a little bit of a cliffhanger, I'll answer Spurgeon's own
00:05:26.100 | question with Spurgeon at the end of the episode.
00:05:34.220 | All right, so as stated, I am joined with Pastor Peter Kim and Pastor Mark Lim.
00:05:43.920 | I invited them here because I thought it would be helpful if we as a group collective fleshed
00:05:50.840 | out this phenomenon that's been going on for several years now called deconstructionism.
00:05:58.360 | It's been in the news a little bit more lately.
00:06:00.320 | If you don't know the term, I'm sure you're familiar with Joshua Harris.
00:06:05.720 | Joshua Harris was a big-time celebrity pastor.
00:06:10.440 | He was affiliated with a huge church network that started in the East Coast, and he came
00:06:17.280 | out a couple years back saying that he wasn't a Christian, that he deconstructed his faith.
00:06:24.600 | And that if there was another way to be a Christian, that he might actually be a Christian,
00:06:30.680 | but he was still just working on that, so to speak.
00:06:33.760 | I'm going to quote him in a little bit.
00:06:35.900 | But more recently, there was another Christian celebrity, his name is Kevin Max.
00:06:42.100 | If you're familiar with the group DC Talk, he was part of that group.
00:06:46.160 | And he came out saying the same thing, that he is going through a stage in his life where
00:06:53.440 | he's deconstructing his faith.
00:06:56.360 | If you have a lot of Christian friends, and they're maybe talking about this, thinking
00:07:06.520 | about this, wondering about the legitimacy of this, our hope is that you will find this
00:07:11.760 | discussion helpful, if not just for learning about the topic, maybe you can minister to
00:07:17.140 | other people.
00:07:18.140 | Maybe you're listening to this, and you're thinking to yourself, "How do I think of this?
00:07:24.240 | How do I sort through this?
00:07:26.560 | Is it biblical?"
00:07:27.560 | Et cetera.
00:07:28.560 | So that's what we want to cover in this podcast.
00:07:31.660 | Just to set things up, I want to read to you a quote by Joshua Harris.
00:07:36.040 | He's the famous former celebrity pastor that I talked about in the beginning.
00:07:40.920 | But he said this, and I'm quoting him now, "Significant changes have taken place in both
00:07:51.200 | of us."
00:07:52.200 | Referring to him and his wife.
00:07:53.880 | He wrote, "The popular phrase for this is deconstruction.
00:07:59.800 | The biblical phrase is falling away.
00:08:02.900 | By all the measurements that I have for defining a Christian, I am not a Christian.
00:08:08.120 | Many people tell me that there is a different way to practice faith, and I want to remain
00:08:12.960 | open to this, but I'm not there now."
00:08:15.480 | Again, this is a former celebrity pastor.
00:08:18.940 | This was a couple years back.
00:08:20.880 | He was huge in the purity culture movement when I was in college, but that was him.
00:08:28.960 | There was a blog article concerning Kevin Max, I'm going to read to you portions of
00:08:32.880 | it.
00:08:33.880 | He's the other Christian celebrity pastor I just spoke about, but this is more recent.
00:08:37.080 | This was like last month.
00:08:38.280 | The blog article goes to say this, "Grammy-winning vocalist Kevin Max, a member of the popular
00:08:44.120 | Christian band DC Talk, who has released music in multiple genres, revealed over the weekend
00:08:49.400 | that he considers himself to be an ex-vangelical."
00:08:53.400 | "Hello, my name is Kevin Max, and I'm an ex-vangelical," he tweeted Saturday, sparking
00:09:01.480 | a large response from many of his Christian followers.
00:09:04.580 | Some praised the musician's post, claiming they were also ex-vangelicals, a term that
00:09:09.420 | has been used commonly in recent years to describe individuals who no longer identify
00:09:15.060 | as evangelicals.
00:09:17.180 | Others in social media stated that they had never heard the term, which has been associated
00:09:20.780 | with progressive Christians who have left evangelical Christianity due to theological
00:09:25.940 | or political reasons in recent years.
00:09:29.140 | In response to a social media user who said Max no longer believed in Jesus, the Jesus
00:09:34.060 | Freak singer quipped, "Nope, didn't say that.
00:09:37.940 | Read text carefully."
00:09:39.900 | In another post, Max clarified that he still follows the "universal Christ."
00:09:45.860 | This is Kevin Max again.
00:09:47.340 | He says, "I have no idea how many people's blogs or podcasts are using that announcement
00:09:53.540 | for further division.
00:09:55.180 | But I'm here for The Grace, and The Grace is capitalized," he assured.
00:09:59.420 | The musician added further detail on his Twitter thread.
00:10:02.300 | "For all those people using my post as plug-and-play for your own hot take or personal discourse,
00:10:08.500 | I offer the lyrics to an upcoming song of my new band, Astronauts' sad album, Adult
00:10:13.660 | Fears, titled, 'It's Okay.
00:10:15.420 | I'm sorry for being obtuse or difficult, but it's a process I love.'"
00:10:18.500 | And then he goes on to kind of quote his lyrics.
00:10:22.580 | Later on in the same article, he goes on to say, "The overall movement is called deconstruction,
00:10:28.460 | meaning deconstructing one's faith and leaving the church.
00:10:32.700 | Many who are deconstructing have spoken out about their experiences getting hurt by people
00:10:39.100 | inside the church.
00:10:40.700 | Others have cited their rejection of biblical teaching on sexuality as a reason they are
00:10:44.780 | disassociating.
00:10:46.640 | Max has made a living as a vocalist in bands that promote Christian message, such as DC
00:10:51.100 | Talk, alongside bandmates Toby Mack and Michael Tate.
00:10:54.600 | He also sang for Audio Adrenaline.
00:10:57.220 | Max has been speaking out for some time about his resistance to a particular version of
00:11:01.380 | Christianity.
00:11:02.580 | In an interview in December with Decent Christian Talk podcast, Max explained where he is on
00:11:08.260 | his journey in deconstructing.
00:11:10.020 | "I like to call it deconstruction, reconstruction," he said.
00:11:13.660 | "Any person that's really changing every day, which we do, you're going to deconstruct or
00:11:18.660 | you're going to reconstruct.
00:11:20.620 | So it's a combination of both of those things," he said.
00:11:23.900 | "I've been deconstructing for decades.
00:11:26.100 | I've always been progressing, as you can say.
00:11:28.820 | And then sometimes I regress.
00:11:30.980 | But I think where I'm at right now is I've really gone on a journey to find out what
00:11:34.420 | I truly believe in by reading a lot, thinking a lot, keeping my eyes and ears open."
00:11:41.300 | The musician has always been vocal about his thoughts online.
00:11:44.220 | While his comments online have been met with resistance, Max said he's always been a believer.
00:11:49.500 | "But I'm questioning a lot of things and I've got more questions than answers," he says.
00:11:54.820 | So it kind of goes on, the blog article kind of goes on, and then it concludes with this.
00:11:58.700 | "I believe in a God of the universe and I believe that he can hear me.
00:12:04.700 | And that in itself is just plain kind of crazy.
00:12:08.380 | But if I believe that, then I truly believe that he cares about my progression and asking
00:12:13.980 | questions and wanting to know what is real and what isn't real," he ended.
00:12:18.460 | "I don't think the God that I believe in is going to just all of a sudden ignore me because
00:12:24.060 | I don't believe every single thing that's written down somewhere."
00:12:29.660 | So that was a bit of a long setup, but if you're not familiar with deconstruction, I'm
00:12:34.140 | setting that up because I want you to be aware of what we're talking about, the backdrop
00:12:41.060 | of this.
00:12:42.060 | I'll include the article that I've read from in the info section for the podcast, but I
00:12:48.860 | just kind of want to open it up.
00:12:51.340 | Pastor Peter, Pastor Mark, what do we make of all this?
00:12:56.500 | How do we think through this and how do we sort this out?
00:13:00.140 | Well, let me share briefly about when I first became a Christian, I started off from the
00:13:07.980 | get-go questioning everything because the Christianity that I experienced growing up,
00:13:15.540 | I hated because I saw a lot of just cultural Christianity.
00:13:21.420 | I've met a lot of Christian, in the Korean community, Christian celebrities, mega church
00:13:25.820 | pastors and not seeing the genuineness of what they were preaching, at least from behind
00:13:33.140 | the curtain.
00:13:34.140 | And it wasn't until after I became a Christian I realized that the biblical Christianity
00:13:38.860 | I saw in Scripture didn't look anything like what I saw growing up.
00:13:43.820 | And so that, right off the bat, caused me to question everything.
00:13:48.060 | What's biblical?
00:13:49.540 | What's right?
00:13:50.540 | What's wrong?
00:13:51.540 | And so, now, when I hear people saying that they're deconstructing or backsliding, however
00:14:00.140 | you want to call it, it seems like to me that they kind of committed to the cultural Christianity
00:14:08.300 | to begin with.
00:14:10.660 | And maybe for the first time in their life, or maybe this was going on behind the scene
00:14:14.260 | and they were pretending in the front, and for the first time, taking a step back, realizing
00:14:20.860 | that their faith was not genuine.
00:14:23.940 | And so my concern with this movement is that the primary concern was themselves, like what
00:14:32.260 | they committed to, why they committed it to, if they had genuine faith or not had genuine
00:14:35.700 | faith.
00:14:36.700 | But instead of turning that toward themselves and asking the question about what they genuinely
00:14:42.820 | believe, they turn it and then they're attacking the church and saying the reason why they
00:14:48.300 | are the way they are is because the church is the way it is.
00:14:53.140 | And so, not that everything that's happening in the church is right or wrong, but I think
00:14:59.060 | the attention really should be self-focused, you know, instead of making this a proclamation
00:15:06.340 | like oh, we need a movement, you know, to break away.
00:15:10.620 | And rather running toward Scripture, you're running away from Scripture.
00:15:14.540 | And so that's where I see the danger.
00:15:16.340 | So asking yourself, you know, like is my faith genuine or not, I think that's a good question
00:15:22.540 | for them to have.
00:15:23.540 | But then for that to turn into, because my faith was not genuine, everybody's faith isn't
00:15:30.020 | genuine.
00:15:32.060 | And I think that's where the danger lies.
00:15:35.780 | I think also for me, you know, we could talk about how to minister to somebody who is experiencing
00:15:40.940 | doubt, but even if somebody came to my office telling me that, the worst forms of deconstructions
00:15:48.700 | that are happening now and what you read from Joshua Harris, I would just give a fair warning
00:15:53.340 | like you have to be careful because you can end up deeply offending God.
00:15:58.300 | When we talk about doubt just generally, are we not talking about doubt in either God's
00:16:05.420 | plan, God's church, or God himself?
00:16:08.900 | And if that's the case, then it could be very similar to the Exodus generation where he
00:16:13.340 | brings them out of Egypt, but they ask him where were you, why didn't you feed us, how
00:16:17.340 | come we don't have a leader, where is he?
00:16:19.780 | And these questions, yes, perhaps on a human level you can understand, but you have to
00:16:25.460 | be careful because then you're completely forgetting God.
00:16:29.220 | And what's kind of eerie is even if you listen to the way that Kevin Max is talking, the
00:16:34.300 | beginning portion of a discussion where he's talking about his progression and his thoughts,
00:16:39.620 | that portion of it doesn't really involve God.
00:16:42.460 | That's him thinking through his thoughts and then having a lack of consideration for the
00:16:48.380 | will of God, the thought of God, etc.
00:16:50.260 | So the danger with the worst forms of deconstruction actually is something that could be very deeply
00:16:56.420 | offensive to God.
00:16:58.180 | Yeah, you know, just kind of researching this topic before this podcast episode, what's
00:17:05.940 | interesting is that the term deconstructionism, and this is for the listener here, the term
00:17:11.660 | deconstructionism actually was coined by a philosopher.
00:17:16.660 | And I remember this philosopher in college because I took a couple classes, but his name
00:17:22.180 | is Jacques Derrida.
00:17:24.060 | And what deconstructionism is, from the actual secular philosophical term, is Jacques Derrida,
00:17:34.940 | he is seeking to loose the meaning between text and what is actually being espoused.
00:17:43.760 | So if you go down that road, what you're essentially saying is that objective truth is unknowable.
00:17:51.760 | And if objective truth is unknowable, well, we espouse the Bible to be objective truth.
00:17:58.980 | And so if you're saying the Bible is unknowable, that the text in the Bible is unknowable,
00:18:04.220 | then what you're saying is the Bible doesn't have authority because I don't know what the
00:18:09.100 | Bible says, you don't know what the Bible says, which is why I think Kevin Max can say
00:18:13.160 | things like, "Well, I still believe in God," or, "I still believe in the universal Christ."
00:18:17.260 | He can say these things.
00:18:18.940 | And before, we understood if you didn't believe in the authority of the Bible, then we knew
00:18:23.620 | that you weren't a Christian.
00:18:25.780 | But the dangerous thing is you have people like Joshua Harris and Kevin Max who's saying,
00:18:30.060 | "Well, maybe there is a way I can still be Christian, but lose the authority of the Bible."
00:18:34.100 | And we're saying, "No, no, you can't."
00:18:37.060 | And I kind of want to bring this back, Pastor Peter, to what you talked about and you were
00:18:41.880 | kind of honing in on, is that we are in no way saying that you can't have questions or
00:18:48.820 | you shouldn't ask questions or that people who love God do not experience doubt in any
00:18:55.420 | way, shape, or form.
00:18:56.420 | We are not saying that at all, and in fact, anyone that knows us knows we love questions
00:19:01.260 | because if you have questions and you ask, these are genuine questions, you come out
00:19:06.220 | more convicted about your faith because the Bible withstands scrutiny.
00:19:10.980 | There is no scrutiny that the Bible is scared of.
00:19:15.380 | There are no questions that the Bible needs to hide behind, like how was the Bible formed?
00:19:23.420 | Can we trust the Bible?
00:19:24.980 | Things like this, there are great, great answers for.
00:19:31.740 | There's been plenty of material written about this.
00:19:33.620 | If there was anything, if there was any smoking gun that would reveal any falsity in the Bible,
00:19:40.120 | the way that the Bible's been attacked for the past thousands of years, and for the New
00:19:46.060 | Testament past 2,000 years, it would have been revealed.
00:19:48.780 | But the New Testament, the Bible altogether, it outlives all its critics for a reason.
00:19:57.940 | It outlives all its critics for a reason.
00:19:59.220 | So we're going to keep talking about this, but I want to say that if you're listening
00:20:03.100 | to this podcast and you do not leave with the impression that somehow we are in any
00:20:10.460 | way espousing that asking questions is ungodly, we're not saying that at all.
00:20:16.300 | Asking genuine questions and searching is great because your conviction comes out more
00:20:20.340 | refined and more strong.
00:20:21.900 | I had so many questions about the existence of God, all the usual questions about why
00:20:29.060 | does good God allow suffering, can we trust the Bible, what about evolution, what about
00:20:33.420 | dinosaurs, all these questions have long been answered.
00:20:37.420 | So we want to make sure that there isn't a conflation, that you don't leave this podcast
00:20:45.820 | thinking, well, asking questions will somehow lead to ungodliness.
00:20:51.660 | And I think that's part of the confusion is that it's playing on this idea of asking questions
00:20:57.140 | as being genuine, but then conflating it with some noble task of rejecting the Bible.
00:21:02.980 | Yeah, I think that's a very good point.
00:21:06.340 | And the reason why we're here isn't because young Christians or non-believers are asking
00:21:12.620 | good questions.
00:21:14.060 | The reason why we're here is people who have had the title of leadership, who are answering
00:21:20.500 | these questions while saying they themselves doubt.
00:21:24.540 | So that's the problem.
00:21:27.220 | People that young Christians are going to, who they looked up to and assumed that they
00:21:32.380 | were spiritual leaders, are saying things that you wouldn't expect spiritual leaders
00:21:38.700 | to say.
00:21:39.700 | Because in one sense, they're representing God, saying God says this and the Bible says
00:21:44.060 | this and we believe this.
00:21:45.740 | And then at the same breath saying, I actually never believed any of that and I'm testing
00:21:50.300 | all of that.
00:21:51.300 | So the problem is not that there's questioning.
00:21:54.300 | The problem is that maybe the people who have been in leadership should not have been there
00:22:00.860 | to begin with.
00:22:03.420 | We live in this celebrity culture where if they're gifted and talented, there's no filter
00:22:08.420 | in bringing people into ministry.
00:22:10.780 | And all of a sudden they have a large following and so they feel the pressure to live up to
00:22:15.420 | this calling of leadership.
00:22:17.620 | Not this calling of we want to represent God properly, but to live up to the expectation
00:22:22.660 | of the gathering of people that they've stood in front of.
00:22:26.460 | And so for years they've had doubts, but they were never able to address these doubts because
00:22:35.700 | they had to live up to the expectations of these people.
00:22:38.220 | But they came to a breaking point where they couldn't live up to that anymore.
00:22:41.860 | And whether it was a moral failing or whether they just felt like a hypocrite or they weren't
00:22:45.860 | growing, whatever it was, they came to a crisis of faith and now for the first time they're
00:22:50.860 | revealing where they've probably been all this time.
00:22:54.480 | So the real problem is they probably shouldn't have been in leadership to begin with.
00:22:58.660 | They should have stayed where they were, asking those good questions and sort of kept on learning.
00:23:04.660 | And then come to a point where they may have realized, "Man, I don't believe this," and
00:23:08.220 | walk away from their faith.
00:23:09.460 | And if that's what happened, we wouldn't be here now.
00:23:12.380 | It's because these celebrity pastors have taken on that role that behind the scene they
00:23:17.020 | probably shouldn't have been there to begin with.
00:23:19.860 | So that says a lot about our Christian culture.
00:23:23.820 | Yeah, talking about that Christian culture, I do think we live in a generation of fear.
00:23:30.300 | A lot of people make their decisions based on fear.
00:23:34.140 | But what's really interesting is one of the great fears of this generation is they're
00:23:37.780 | going to commit to something they don't like.
00:23:40.500 | And when you talk about the kind of revelation of what's indicative of this Christian culture,
00:23:45.820 | a lot of people who are commenting about deconstruction, they'll say a lot of it starts from they've
00:23:51.220 | entered the church and what they don't like is a doctrinal stance against LGBTQ.
00:23:56.580 | Or they went into the church and what they didn't like is the conflict they had with
00:24:00.980 | somebody.
00:24:01.980 | What they didn't like is the culture of the church.
00:24:03.340 | Something like that, right?
00:24:04.860 | So at that point, you're not actually even asking, "Is what we're doing worthwhile principally?
00:24:11.360 | Or is this biblical according to the will of God?"
00:24:14.940 | The question being asked is, "Can I live with this?
00:24:17.940 | Can I be in the church and actually live like this?
00:24:20.320 | How am I supposed to survive in here like this?"
00:24:22.140 | And so deconstruction becomes a selecting, a choosing of what will I be willing to accept?
00:24:28.020 | And what's really interesting to me is a senior editor of Gospel Coalition, Brett McCracken,
00:24:33.460 | he said, "If you go down that route of trying to analyze what do I like, what I don't like,
00:24:39.500 | then you do end up in a world of mysticism."
00:24:41.500 | Earlier you're talking about actually detaching certain elements of meaning from truth and
00:24:47.060 | not having a stronghold or foundation of biblical authority.
00:24:50.780 | But that's potentially what will result is if you're making decisions based on your fears
00:24:54.880 | or your emotions of what you'll accept, you'll kind of get to his, you know, kind of a massive
00:25:00.700 | statement of, "You know what?
00:25:01.700 | I'm actually always going to be progressing.
00:25:03.420 | I don't think I'll ever stop."
00:25:05.220 | Because you're then now contingent upon what you feel you can accept in the moment in time.
00:25:12.620 | Yeah, you know, that's, yeah, that's good.
00:25:16.820 | You know, I was going through, you know, some, I was reading different blogs, actually speaking
00:25:23.980 | to different people while I was trying to research about this issue.
00:25:28.660 | And what's interesting was there's a blog article by this guy named Keith Giles.
00:25:33.500 | And he talks about the six pillars of religious deconstruction.
00:25:39.040 | And these are the pillars he lists.
00:25:41.580 | So he writes, "The first pillar of Christian deconstruction is the Bible," right?
00:25:47.140 | And then he says in this blog article, he says this, "This is odd, since one would assume
00:25:51.660 | that the foundation of the Christian faith would be Christ.
00:25:54.700 | But that's not the case, unfortunately.
00:25:56.600 | For most evangelical Christians, especially, the Bible is their authority, and they will
00:26:00.420 | gladly affirm this if you're uncertain about it.
00:26:03.140 | Because Christians tend to base their faith in the Bible, they also feel the need to overstate
00:26:07.380 | its importance, making it the linchpin for everything they hold dear.
00:26:11.900 | Therefore, once you start to doubt their claims that the Bible is inerrant and infallible,
00:26:17.780 | the rest of your faith is soon to crumble."
00:26:20.620 | And it's not very hard to prove that the Bible is indeed filled with errors, mistakes, contradictions
00:26:24.940 | between prophets.
00:26:25.940 | And he goes on to talk about how the Bible is incorrect and is not trustworthy.
00:26:31.100 | But there's other pillars right there to begin with.
00:26:35.500 | But you see how, in terms of deconstruction, where this is headed to is not just doubt,
00:26:44.820 | it's not just a re-examination of one's faith, but as we've been talking about, it leads
00:26:51.120 | you to believe that you can be a Christian and doubt what the Bible says.
00:26:58.380 | And that is somehow virtuous, right?
00:27:01.580 | Now obviously, this blog article is massively incorrect, it's just patently false, when
00:27:09.980 | it says the Bible is filled with errors.
00:27:11.940 | Anyone that has actually studied the Bible should be able to see that.
00:27:17.820 | And I remember as a young Christian thinking this exact same thought, "How can I trust
00:27:24.340 | the Bible?
00:27:26.180 | How can I trust the Bible if it's old?"
00:27:28.660 | And that's a completely different podcast, but I went through that journey thinking,
00:27:35.360 | "Oh my gosh, just magnifying God because I can indeed trust the Bible."
00:27:41.700 | And again, deconstructionism, from what I've been reading and from just the people I've
00:27:49.460 | been talking to, the issue is, people begin to believe that you can hold to this idea
00:27:58.100 | that the Bible is false and still be a Christian.
00:28:03.180 | Before, those two concepts were dissimilar.
00:28:07.660 | If you didn't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, in the infallibility of the Bible,
00:28:13.500 | then you knew you weren't a Christian.
00:28:15.140 | That is actually a better place.
00:28:17.980 | That is actually a much better place because you know who you are as opposed to, "Well,
00:28:23.460 | you know what?
00:28:24.460 | I can believe the Bible is false and still be a Christian, and everything is okay."
00:28:30.780 | So the problem with that logic is, for not hundreds, thousands of years, Christianity
00:28:40.620 | was based on belief of the Word of God in the Old Testament and the New Testament.
00:28:47.300 | Once you reject that, it becomes relativism.
00:28:51.100 | So you define whatever you want to define as Christianity.
00:28:54.700 | So if a Hindu says, "I'm a Christian because I believe Jesus, and this is the Jesus that
00:29:00.220 | I believe."
00:29:01.220 | So the Jehovah's Witnesses are also Christian, then you have the Mormons, they're also Christian.
00:29:06.380 | Who's to say they're not?
00:29:07.940 | If the basis in which Christianity is based on, you reject that as being unreliable.
00:29:14.100 | So you're basically saying that you're going to define from this point on what Christianity
00:29:19.100 | is to you, and you have no right to question anybody else, LGBTQ, whatever they want it
00:29:25.380 | to be.
00:29:28.140 | The problem is, once you've rejected the Bible, you've rejected Christianity.
00:29:33.700 | You've rejected Christianity.
00:29:35.220 | So if that was your stance, my question is, what was your motive in coming into ministry?
00:29:43.900 | If you question the reliability of Scripture, what were you trying to do to influence other
00:29:50.100 | people?
00:29:51.660 | What were you thinking when you were preparing sermons?
00:29:53.700 | What were you doing when you were evangelizing?
00:29:56.400 | So basically you're saying that you've lived a double life, and no one forced you, twisted
00:30:01.260 | your arm to go into ministry.
00:30:03.100 | And all of a sudden you wake up and say, "Okay, now I've changed my mind.
00:30:07.060 | Now I want to be a leader leading the other way."
00:30:10.180 | What is your motive?
00:30:11.740 | So is it truth that's driving you, or is it whatever agenda that you've had?
00:30:18.600 | But the basis on which you've founded your whole life on, you're throwing it away, and
00:30:23.300 | then now you're saying, "I'm going to go the other way, now follow me the other way also."
00:30:27.520 | So that's the inconsistency and hypocrisy that I see in all of this.
00:30:32.360 | And so if you say, "I don't trust the Bible," you're being honest.
00:30:36.780 | That's what you believe.
00:30:38.100 | And you should just say, "I'm going to go the other path."
00:30:41.060 | But to say that everything about Christianity is wrong because now you don't have confidence,
00:30:49.500 | to me that's disingenuous.
00:30:51.400 | It makes me question what motivated you to be into ministry to begin with if you didn't
00:30:55.740 | have that confidence all along.
00:30:59.980 | And I do think, and maybe we could talk about this later, that obviously there are different
00:31:05.140 | degrees of doubt, and we're in some ways obviously addressing the worst form of the deconstruction
00:31:11.900 | where there is this high-level skepticism to what the scripture says, and a base belief
00:31:18.500 | that to just wholeheartedly commit to the scriptures and say it's all true and inerrant
00:31:23.140 | is foolish.
00:31:25.620 | But within that, I do think there is a ton of the motivation behind it is not new, it's
00:31:31.580 | age-old which is self-justification.
00:31:35.300 | People falsely assumed that God would accept my "righteous" behavior as Meredith so that
00:31:42.860 | he would accept me because that's how we operate.
00:31:45.860 | And so they assume, "Oh, of course God would accept me because I'm majority good."
00:31:50.420 | False.
00:31:51.420 | But even if you read the way that Kevin Max talks, it's like, "Oh, God would take my doubts.
00:31:57.040 | He would hear me out," and what you do is you constantly project who you would be unto
00:32:02.640 | God even though he's already told you what he's like.
00:32:05.560 | He demands perfection.
00:32:06.640 | He demands faith.
00:32:08.420 | And what you have in this desire is to self-justify.
00:32:13.200 | And people have done it different ways.
00:32:14.780 | But now in the worst form of deconstruction, you just completely flip it upside down.
00:32:20.340 | My doubt rather than it being a cause of concern or something needed to be addressed, it becomes
00:32:25.120 | good.
00:32:26.120 | Jesus will say to us, "Why do you not believe what I said?
00:32:30.080 | You have a little faith.
00:32:31.080 | Why did you doubt?"
00:32:32.760 | But instead we say, "No, no.
00:32:35.560 | Trust me.
00:32:36.560 | This is good.
00:32:37.560 | This is a necessary part of what I need to do."
00:32:40.240 | And you flip the definitions and typically those definitions then now become determined
00:32:44.720 | by what I would do.
00:32:46.840 | And I think that's why earlier I was saying highly potential you can offend God because
00:32:52.600 | you start projecting unto him how you would do it.
00:32:56.180 | You start projecting unto him how he should be.
00:32:58.680 | And I think it again is a really dangerous path.
00:33:02.120 | Yeah, you know, I want to just read 2 Peter chapter 1 verse 10 here because it's pertinent
00:33:10.960 | to our discussion.
00:33:11.960 | But Peter says this, Apostle Peter says, "Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more diligent
00:33:19.240 | to make certain about his calling and choice of you.
00:33:22.760 | For as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble."
00:33:26.640 | Verse 11 says, "For in this way, the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior
00:33:31.000 | Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you."
00:33:34.880 | So the admonition in Scripture, the admonition in Scripture is to make all the more diligent
00:33:41.520 | and certain about his calling and choice of us.
00:33:45.680 | The virtue in somehow rejecting doctrines that sincere Bible-believing Christians have
00:33:58.080 | had for centuries, that somehow that's virtuous, that somehow that's what God desires, that's
00:34:05.560 | completely false.
00:34:07.080 | As you can see even just from the one passage I read.
00:34:11.080 | And when you think about how the Word of God, because this is an attack on the Word of God.
00:34:17.160 | It's very simple here.
00:34:18.360 | People like to think that there's this idea of neutrality, am I in charge or is God in
00:34:24.240 | charge?
00:34:25.520 | Let's start from the middle.
00:34:26.520 | Let me tell it to you right now.
00:34:30.040 | Neutrality is a myth.
00:34:32.160 | Neutrality is an absolute myth.
00:34:33.680 | There's no such thing as neutrality.
00:34:35.720 | This is the law of non-contradiction, the law of the excluded middle.
00:34:39.560 | I mean, go ahead and look that up.
00:34:41.280 | There really is no neutrality in the way we envision it.
00:34:45.480 | Either God is God or we are God.
00:34:49.200 | It's one or the other.
00:34:50.200 | And God has spoken to us through his Word.
00:34:54.000 | That's the way he has revealed himself to us in a very specific way.
00:34:59.000 | We can know about God through what we see, however, if we want to know about salvation,
00:35:04.840 | we go to the Scriptures.
00:35:06.600 | So once you lose the authority of the Scriptures, you lose the authority of God subjectively
00:35:14.080 | in your life.
00:35:15.160 | And at that point, you erect an idol.
00:35:17.520 | And that idol is yourself.
00:35:18.520 | And you're saying, "Well, this is the right way to interpret reality.
00:35:22.040 | This is the right way to interpret morality.
00:35:24.720 | This is the right way to even interpret God."
00:35:27.080 | But Peter here, in 2 Peter 1, verse 10, he's saying, "Therefore, brothers and sisters,
00:35:33.360 | be all the more diligent to make certain about his calling and choice of you."
00:35:38.000 | So I think part of that is asking questions.
00:35:40.200 | You have a genuine question about how the Bible was formed, because I did, and I got
00:35:43.720 | them all answered.
00:35:44.720 | You have a genuine question about church history and how Christians have survived through all
00:35:49.480 | these years and why we can hold to these certain doctrines?
00:35:52.720 | Good, because I had those same questions and I looked into it.
00:35:55.720 | Do you have a question about evolution?
00:35:57.320 | Good.
00:35:58.320 | I had that same question and I looked into it.
00:36:01.440 | Every single question about whether it's good and evil, whether it's empirical data, whatever
00:36:07.160 | it is, my questions have all been answered.
00:36:10.160 | And us three of us, we're skeptics, but naturally we're skeptics.
00:36:16.600 | But we're also convicted about the authority of Scripture, which is why we're here.
00:36:23.440 | But this conviction is absolutely born through genuine questions.
00:36:28.480 | My point is there is a distinction that needs to be made between genuine questions that
00:36:34.640 | need to be asked and what deconstructionism is positing and what deconstructionism is
00:36:41.720 | proposing.
00:36:42.720 | So if you're talking to your friends and they're going through this phase, there is this kind
00:36:49.120 | of push to not merely ask questions, but to go beyond that and to actually believe that
00:36:57.680 | you can be a Christian and disregard the claims of Scripture.
00:37:03.280 | Yeah, let me say this because I'm approaching this, or at least from what I'm seeing, there's
00:37:12.000 | been issues with Christianity, again, way before even before I became a Christian.
00:37:18.880 | And yeah, I mean, I'm not a fan of modern day Christianity myself.
00:37:26.160 | I think the church is sick.
00:37:27.960 | I think the way that people come into ministry, what's being taught and been being practiced
00:37:33.520 | and almost sometimes like circus kind of atmosphere that churches have in order to draw people
00:37:39.880 | to the church.
00:37:40.880 | All of this stuff is stuff that I have a problem with.
00:37:43.720 | So the fact that we are deconstructing or examining or questioning in and of itself
00:37:49.800 | is not a bad thing, but the fact that it's coming from leaders who are not only questioning
00:37:58.920 | certain fundamental things that really should have been asked to begin with, one, do I really
00:38:05.460 | believe this God?
00:38:07.080 | Two, do I believe that the Bible is inerrant?
00:38:10.920 | Like this is God's word given to me.
00:38:14.000 | And if you had doubt in these two fundamental questions, you shouldn't have been in ministry.
00:38:22.720 | Why would somebody who doubts the law go into the legal field?
00:38:27.600 | Why would somebody who doubts medicine go into the medical field?
00:38:31.520 | It doesn't make sense.
00:38:32.520 | Like I don't trust Western medicine, but I'm going to give 13 years of my life studying
00:38:37.160 | this and then at the end of it and saying, I don't know if I would practice this.
00:38:42.520 | So right off the bat, they probably shouldn't have gone into ministry, right?
00:38:48.200 | But here's the other part.
00:38:52.240 | Christianity is not something that you just learn objectively.
00:38:54.640 | There is a subjective aspect where God opens your eyes and you see the glory of Christ.
00:38:58.880 | But the Bible makes it very clear where God says, you will seek me and find me when you
00:39:03.780 | seek me with all your heart.
00:39:07.000 | No one casually sees God.
00:39:10.020 | No one kind of like tests the waters and then God shows up and begging you to come to the
00:39:14.160 | other side.
00:39:15.540 | God says to make up your mind.
00:39:17.560 | If you are going to worship God, worship him.
00:39:19.360 | If you're going to worship the world, worship the world.
00:39:21.680 | But according to scripture, whether you believe it or not, we've offended God.
00:39:26.720 | And so the first question that a non-believer asks is, do I believe that?
00:39:31.920 | Do I believe what he says about my state?
00:39:34.720 | And so once you make that decision, you repent of your sins and then you search him with
00:39:40.080 | all your heart.
00:39:41.760 | And that's what causes you to see an increasing evidence of God's glory, which increases your
00:39:46.780 | faith.
00:39:48.540 | But the problem that we have now is we have a generation or a cultural Christianity where
00:39:54.340 | even in the leadership, they're not diligently seeking God.
00:39:58.660 | They're dabbling with the world, concerned about everything else that everybody else
00:40:02.340 | is concerned about, and they're objectively thinking that they're going to read a book
00:40:09.180 | or they're going to find something and something's going to cause them to open their eyes.
00:40:12.580 | So almost kind of like demanding God to prove himself, even as they are claiming that they
00:40:18.500 | know God.
00:40:20.180 | And so after a while, they don't encounter God, not because God is not revealing himself,
00:40:25.500 | but because they maybe have never committed themselves to fully seek after God.
00:40:31.220 | And then instead of questioning where they are, they start questioning God because God
00:40:35.540 | didn't jump when he asked them to jump, when they thought like, "Oh, come," and he didn't
00:40:40.740 | come.
00:40:41.740 | So maybe it's not real.
00:40:43.740 | Not realizing maybe where they are is not where God wants them to be to begin with.
00:40:48.900 | And the problem is if this was happening with people at church, we would counsel them to
00:40:53.540 | encourage them to continue to seek, continue to ask.
00:40:56.900 | But we're not talking about people in the church who are asking.
00:41:00.260 | They're not, and they're not asking questions right now.
00:41:03.380 | They're making a statement.
00:41:05.700 | They're not saying like, "I doubt, you know, like I really need to know.
00:41:08.980 | I really, like somebody answer my question."
00:41:10.900 | They're not asking that.
00:41:12.420 | They're saying, "I have all the answers and here's my latest answer," which contradicts
00:41:17.540 | everything I said before, right?
00:41:20.620 | So I think at the minimum, they need to be self-aware and take a step back and say, "Maybe
00:41:27.820 | I shouldn't have been a leader to begin with," you know what I mean?
00:41:31.460 | Instead of blaming all of Christianity and the Bible and everything else, that maybe
00:41:35.700 | their faith was never in the place where they should have been leading.
00:41:39.620 | And that's really what's causing this problem because it's confusing a lot of young Christians.
00:41:44.540 | We thought they were mature, and that's what mature Christians look like.
00:41:48.380 | No, that is not what mature Christians look like, and that's where the confusion is coming
00:41:52.340 | from.
00:41:53.340 | I'm really glad you mentioned that about definition of what is actually mature faith, you know.
00:42:01.100 | In this generation, I think there is a lot of confusion because some people maybe wrongly
00:42:05.340 | assume that you literally have to wait 10 years after receiving some kind of doctorate
00:42:10.580 | degree or something like that in a highly intellectualized faith.
00:42:15.140 | But I definitely want to just, you know, for anybody listening who's just feeling like,
00:42:19.740 | "Oh yeah, there are a lot of voices in this generation.
00:42:22.660 | Our Lord commended childlike faith."
00:42:25.900 | Even in the discussion of critical thinking, am I the fool to say, "My God is my Father.
00:42:31.820 | He loves me, so everything He says, I trust Him."
00:42:35.780 | Am I the fool for saying that?
00:42:37.100 | No, that's commended as mature faith.
00:42:41.300 | And so to think that perhaps in a maybe well-intended but sloppily applied thought that to be real
00:42:49.180 | is to be more mature, to be like constantly expounding every doubt you have or to expose
00:42:56.900 | since everybody experiences this, since this is the communal experience, like this is to
00:43:01.540 | be more glorified, that goes against how Jesus is defining more mature faith.
00:43:06.300 | So I didn't, I don't like it when, yes, leaders of this day are trying to project that actually
00:43:12.220 | doubting your, the resurrection of Jesus or doubting the existence of God or doubting
00:43:18.060 | the church, which is Christ's bride, is somehow more mature, right?
00:43:22.900 | The definition always has been, no, your ability to take God's Word and fully trust and then
00:43:32.100 | take His character into account and therefore fully invest yourself into what He has said
00:43:38.380 | and prove it to be true by the commitments of your life, that's maturity.
00:43:43.620 | But they're flipping it on its head and that's again very dangerous.
00:43:47.340 | Yeah, you know, if I can just read some passages here, look at what Scripture says about Scripture.
00:43:53.780 | Psalm 119, 105, "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path."
00:43:59.660 | And we, 2 Peter 119, "And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you
00:44:05.260 | will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place."
00:44:10.940 | Deconstructionism doesn't view the Word of God as a lamp.
00:44:15.380 | It doesn't view the Word of God as something you should pay attention to as a lamp shining
00:44:20.540 | in a dark place.
00:44:22.180 | Second Timothy 3, 16, 17, "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching,
00:44:27.060 | for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may
00:44:31.460 | be competent, equipped for every good work."
00:44:35.300 | Second Timothy 3, 15, right before that it says, "The sacred writings, which are able
00:44:39.420 | to make you wise for salvation."
00:44:41.500 | Deuteronomy 6, 4, "Hear, O Israel."
00:44:46.100 | "Hear, O Israel," that, that, "Hear, O Israel," what?
00:44:48.060 | "The Word of God."
00:44:49.140 | So we see that, you know, an attack on the Word of God is an attack on God himself.
00:44:56.620 | When you attack the Word of God, you are going to make someone else God, either yourself
00:45:01.540 | or some other idol you see in the culture.
00:45:03.900 | Now, if you're honest about that, that's one thing.
00:45:08.220 | But if you see cognitively, okay, how that makes sense, my concern is people who tear
00:45:17.820 | down the authority of the Word of God cognitively don't even see that.
00:45:22.100 | And kind of just what Pastor Peter, Pastor Mark have been talking about, it kind of starts
00:45:27.020 | with the leaders, right?
00:45:28.940 | I mean, the Word of God says all this, but quite frankly, younger Christians don't know
00:45:33.900 | what the Word of God says.
00:45:35.660 | So when people who are in positions of leadership say, "Oh, this is actually what the Word of
00:45:42.560 | God says."
00:45:43.560 | Now, you might not verbally, explicitly articulate it in that way, but when you express any,
00:45:51.060 | when you cast a light that the scriptures are not worthy to be trusted, you get into
00:45:57.460 | all kinds of trouble.
00:45:58.620 | And what's interesting here is that in that same blog post article, "The Six Pillars of
00:46:03.860 | Religious Deconstruction" by Keith Giles, the second, the first pillar is getting rid
00:46:09.380 | of the authority of the Bible.
00:46:10.380 | And then after that, everything else just crumbles, right?
00:46:13.020 | You stop believing in hell.
00:46:14.880 | You stop believing in penal substitution or atonement.
00:46:20.740 | You cannot reconcile suffering in the world with a good and holy God.
00:46:25.520 | You stop believing, you have a weird form of eschatology.
00:46:30.620 | And ultimately here, the sixth pillar that he writes is you ultimately leave the church.
00:46:39.940 | You ultimately just leave the church because, you know, the church at that point, you know,
00:46:44.180 | any sound Bible teaching church, if you don't agree with that, you're going to kind of view
00:46:48.700 | that as "abuse."
00:46:52.220 | They keep saying that the Bible is authoritative and it's abusing me, right?
00:46:57.580 | It's abusing me so it's unhealthy to be here because they're ramming this unhealthy thought
00:47:03.700 | that I can trust everything in the Bible and then you ultimately leave.
00:47:08.780 | And I think now kind of moving into the idea, you talked about failure and leadership.
00:47:15.820 | There is a sense when leadership has to prepare the congregation to be strong for the hardships
00:47:22.860 | ahead, the suffering ahead that they'll experience.
00:47:25.180 | And again, I can point to the theme, there's a, you know, a lot of people who talk about
00:47:30.420 | people who fall into deconstruction because of experience where maybe they had real scenarios
00:47:36.440 | where they were hurt or pained very deeply, but there's a sense in which the church or
00:47:42.080 | again leadership didn't prepare them to think about that kind of suffering in their lives
00:47:47.540 | in a godly fashion, right?
00:47:50.020 | Perhaps to expect nothing more than blessings from God when scripture very clearly asks
00:47:54.380 | this question, "Shall I accept only blessing and not calamity from the Lord?"
00:47:59.560 | Or even to think through the New Testament where it talks about looking at the various
00:48:03.220 | trials that we will face and receiving it with hope, joy, strength in Christ because
00:48:08.500 | we're living that life of faith, right?
00:48:12.060 | So it's sad to me that individuals who do experience genuine suffering are kind of relegated
00:48:17.260 | to wonder, like throw their hands up and wonder, "How can I be strong like this?"
00:48:21.200 | And it is sad, even more sad if those individuals are looking to leaders for strength and their
00:48:26.100 | leadership rather than trying to strengthen their faith and bolster their faith, they're
00:48:30.420 | just agreeing with them.
00:48:31.420 | You're right, I don't know either, right?
00:48:33.060 | That to me is a sad state of affairs.
00:48:35.720 | So scripture commands all brethren, whether you're a leader or not, it says, "Take care
00:48:40.100 | brethren that there not be in any of you an evil unbelieving heart that falls away from
00:48:45.180 | the living God, but encourage one another day by day as long as it is called today so
00:48:49.500 | that none of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin," right?
00:48:53.580 | And I think we have to really ask the question again, how am I actually ministering and causing
00:49:00.300 | an individual who is perhaps experiencing a level of doubt and causing them to be strengthened
00:49:06.980 | as opposed to just simply validating all the woes and maybe even angst and complaints that
00:49:13.660 | they may have.
00:49:14.860 | Again, I think there's a large conflation between, "Oh, there's critical thinking and
00:49:19.540 | genuine questions."
00:49:20.540 | Actually, if I read the articles from the leaders that are coming out online, they're
00:49:25.260 | just complaining about the church, they're complaining about their lives and complaining
00:49:28.940 | about the cars that God dealt them, and they're throwing their hands up like, "Which ones
00:49:33.260 | are we willing to accept or not?"
00:49:34.860 | And we can't conflate the two.
00:49:36.980 | Yeah, I mean, in some sense, again, I can't read their mind and their heart, but it's
00:49:44.780 | hard to see the genuineness in some of the things that they're saying because it's
00:49:52.300 | kind of like, again, people may not like this, but like what Russell Moore did, he was the
00:49:58.260 | head of the ethics committee in the Southern Baptist and then he resigns and then he goes
00:50:02.740 | to - basically, he takes his hand off and then now he's ripping on everybody that he
00:50:07.540 | basically led.
00:50:10.760 | To me, it's so disingenuous because you are in a position where that would have - if they
00:50:16.420 | did a - if all of these things that you're saying, how these people were swept, you know,
00:50:20.580 | sexual misconduct under the rug, you would have been the most guilty because you were
00:50:25.380 | the leader there, you know, and then you come out and then you say, "Look what they're
00:50:31.020 | doing."
00:50:32.940 | And I see the same thing with like, you guys were leaders.
00:50:37.140 | And so you influenced some of the culture that you are ripping on.
00:50:42.320 | And for you to come out and say, "Look at those people," instead of saying, "I
00:50:47.540 | was wrong," right?
00:50:48.960 | Even though we may disagree with you, at least you can say, "I was wrong.
00:50:52.020 | I had doubts and I didn't deal with it for all these years.
00:50:55.900 | And so now I'm going to deal with the doubts that I should have dealt with years ago."
00:50:59.780 | Instead of saying that and being humble about it, you come out and saying, "Now that I'm
00:51:04.340 | out, I want to tell you all the things that are wrong with them."
00:51:09.760 | It's really hard to see that as a genuine wrestling with their faith, you know, because
00:51:16.140 | of the way that they're coming out and saying that.
00:51:18.580 | It's kind of like you had one platform that didn't work out, now you're seeking another
00:51:22.140 | platform.
00:51:23.140 | And again, I can't read their heart, but it's from a distance.
00:51:26.460 | It's hard not to see it that way unless I see otherwise.
00:51:31.540 | Because how can you be in charge of the ethics community and then resign and then rip on
00:51:36.980 | the ethics community that you are in charge of?
00:51:39.980 | Yeah, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
00:51:42.980 | Yeah, and so as I think about that, man, I think about like, there may be people who
00:51:51.780 | actually are struggling with doubt, you know, and then scripture says, "Be merciful to those
00:51:57.380 | who doubt."
00:51:58.380 | First Thessalonians talks about, "There are the unruly who need to be exhorted, but then
00:52:02.820 | there are the fainthearted who need to be encouraged," right?
00:52:06.540 | But my encouragement then would be, if you're doubting, then don't be a defensive doubter,
00:52:11.900 | right?
00:52:12.900 | So if I give this example, there are a lot of people who, in this busy generation where
00:52:17.940 | people are working late, have lots of responsibility, they're fainthearted and they're growing weary.
00:52:22.780 | But then they read scripture and scripture commands them, "Do not grow faint and weary
00:52:26.180 | hearted," right?
00:52:28.080 | So you have two options.
00:52:30.380 | One is to say, "Man, I'm fainthearted and weary and you're just going to tell me don't
00:52:35.060 | do it?"
00:52:36.060 | Right?
00:52:37.060 | And you get defensive.
00:52:38.060 | Like, "You don't understand how much I have on my plate.
00:52:39.960 | You don't understand the experiences that I had.
00:52:41.780 | You don't understand the pressures that I go through."
00:52:45.140 | Or you can be humble and receive the exhortation and say, "You know what?
00:52:49.500 | I am weary right now.
00:52:51.100 | I'm fatigued," right?
00:52:53.380 | You could have a humble reception where there's a greater brokenness, that if I have doubt,
00:52:58.780 | then now it's a raise of concern.
00:53:00.940 | "Why do I have this doubt?
00:53:03.100 | What did I expect that perhaps need to be corrected in terms of my expectation, right?
00:53:08.160 | What false belief that I actually have, not they have, but what false belief that I have
00:53:12.620 | that I need to correct now?
00:53:14.540 | Why am I actually feeling so discouraged?"
00:53:16.860 | That should be the question.
00:53:17.860 | And that Pastor Peter, that's what you're getting at.
00:53:19.540 | It's like, if you're really introspective on yourself, then now you're actually surrendering
00:53:24.880 | and submitting more to the exhortation of the scripture as opposed to being defensive
00:53:29.120 | about it.
00:53:30.120 | It's like, "Don't tell me I'm wrong.
00:53:31.300 | I'm right."
00:53:32.740 | You can't come to the table like that and then expect God to somehow listen to that
00:53:38.280 | kind of heart.
00:53:39.280 | You can't be a defensive doubter.
00:53:41.120 | Yeah.
00:53:42.120 | And you know, as I think about the convergence of celebrity Christian culture and within
00:53:53.960 | that kind of reality, the existence of, you know, faint-hearted Christians who need encouragement.
00:54:01.740 | And when I see the faint-hearted Christians who need encouragement get caught up and get
00:54:06.000 | misled, it's hard.
00:54:09.560 | It's sad.
00:54:10.560 | It's hard to deal with that because, you know, as shepherds, you have to love someone enough
00:54:17.140 | that you are willing to endure saying the truth, even if it means they dislike you or
00:54:22.960 | hate you.
00:54:24.160 | Because you love them enough to tell them the truth.
00:54:27.160 | You have to endure that.
00:54:28.780 | But if you're not willing to endure that, and you'd rather say some type of nicety,
00:54:36.520 | you really hate their soul.
00:54:38.420 | You must really hate them.
00:54:42.000 | It's the strangest thing to me.
00:54:43.860 | And you know, Pastor Peter, you bring up Russell Moore, I mean, you know, anyone that, me personally,
00:54:49.100 | anyone that knows, I've had huge issues with, I can name a lot of people, but one person
00:54:55.860 | in particular, me personally, is Tim Keller.
00:55:00.220 | And I'm sure he personally loves the Lord, but I've been very disappointed with many
00:55:08.020 | of the things that he's been saying.
00:55:11.780 | Over the years, I've been disappointed with T4G and Gospel Coalition.
00:55:18.100 | I've been disappointed.
00:55:19.100 | Now, I'm not saying that it's all bad or anything like that, but I've been disappointed.
00:55:22.900 | And the reason, again, the reason we're disappointed is because we hate to see the young Christians,
00:55:31.500 | the faint-hearted Christians, get caught up in this and, you know, ultimately walk away
00:55:37.540 | from their faith.
00:55:38.540 | Now, of course, we understand that God is sovereign and that the ones who will persevere
00:55:42.100 | will persevere, but we work in the convergence of that.
00:55:46.340 | I don't believe in the sovereignty of God and not evangelize because, well, whoever's
00:55:50.660 | going to be saved is going to be saved.
00:55:52.900 | I believe in the sovereignty of God, and that makes me work harder because I'm more confident
00:55:58.820 | of who's in control, you know?
00:56:01.260 | And so, man, I'm going to hold myself back.
00:56:06.460 | I can just burst like a dam when I think about that aspect of it.
00:56:10.820 | - Yeah, I mean, even within our church, we have different level of maturity, different
00:56:17.140 | level of faith, and different level of commitment to the church.
00:56:21.340 | We have people who are coming to church who are not members of the church.
00:56:24.460 | They may be Christians, but they haven't committed, and we don't know if they're Christians because
00:56:29.060 | we don't know them, right?
00:56:30.060 | And so, they may have doubts, they may be questioning inerrancy, and then they may hear
00:56:33.700 | certain things and say, "Oh, I don't belong in this church because I don't believe what
00:56:36.380 | they believe," right?
00:56:39.180 | That's expected.
00:56:40.540 | That's expected in that crowd.
00:56:42.160 | That's why we have membership.
00:56:43.160 | So, when you become a member, we make sure that, do you genuinely believe?
00:56:47.200 | Have you genuinely confessed?
00:56:48.200 | Because we wouldn't baptize you, right?
00:56:49.680 | And you wouldn't want to be baptized.
00:56:51.200 | So, we want to make sure that the membership in the church are from genuine Christians.
00:56:55.600 | And to be a genuine Christian, you have to believe the Word of God is the Word of God.
00:57:00.680 | If you don't believe that, then your faith is not based on anything other than, "I was
00:57:04.760 | taught this, and I choose to believe this, I choose not to believe this."
00:57:07.800 | So, what you believe, there's no boundaries.
00:57:10.080 | You're just regurgitating something that you heard.
00:57:11.960 | So, one of the first things as a member in the church, and even as members, you may have
00:57:16.800 | different degrees of faith.
00:57:18.280 | So, we would expect, like you're searching, you've made a decision that, "I believe it's
00:57:24.640 | the Word of God," and you're genuinely saying, "I believe.
00:57:28.800 | Help my unbelief.
00:57:29.800 | I want to grow in my faith."
00:57:30.800 | We expect that from that group.
00:57:34.560 | And then within the church, you have people who are mature, right?
00:57:37.680 | Who can defend the faith.
00:57:40.480 | They're still growing, they still have questions, but they're more mature than an average believer
00:57:44.040 | in the church, and that's why they're leading certain things.
00:57:47.480 | In the eldership of the church, in the pastoral, like when we go through ordination, we assume
00:57:53.920 | all of that.
00:57:55.280 | Because we've gone through the gauntlet through all of that.
00:57:58.120 | All of that is assumed.
00:57:59.560 | We don't come into the leadership meeting asking, "Are we committed to this church?
00:58:05.800 | Do I actually believe what you're telling me?
00:58:07.520 | Like how can I trust you?"
00:58:09.400 | You know, "Is the Bible really real?"
00:58:12.400 | We don't expect that because we're committed to expound this, to teach this.
00:58:19.640 | We're committed to plant churches, make sacrifices, and then teach other people, answer other
00:58:25.520 | people's questions.
00:58:27.620 | But the fact that you have people who are in leadership, that they're not church hoppers,
00:58:33.280 | they're not just members of the church, they're not small group leaders, and they're not even
00:58:36.580 | just regular elders.
00:58:38.020 | These guys are people who put themselves in a position where they're writing books, going
00:58:44.120 | on tours, and then telling people in the thousands that you ought to believe all of this.
00:58:53.000 | And then to say, "I've changed my mind.
00:58:55.480 | In fact, not only did I change my mind, the right thing to do for everybody else is to
00:59:00.840 | do exactly what I'm doing."
00:59:04.200 | That's the problem.
00:59:05.620 | If they were church visitors, if they were even just brand new Christians, we could be
00:59:12.860 | patient.
00:59:13.860 | You know, we try to answer questions like, "Oh, what is your doubt?
00:59:17.060 | Where is that coming from?
00:59:18.060 | Why do you doubt the Word of God?"
00:59:20.460 | But you sold yourself as a leader, you know, that you probably shouldn't have been there.
00:59:26.760 | And so really, to be honest, there is no credibility in what you're saying because you contradicted
00:59:34.540 | everything that you propagated yourself with your mouth.
00:59:38.740 | And then you say, "I doubted all of that."
00:59:41.440 | So how do we know what you're saying is true now?
00:59:44.780 | How do we know that?
00:59:46.600 | So the content of what you say really is irrelevant, you know what I mean?
00:59:53.420 | Even if it has merit, it's irrelevant because you've contradicted yourself.
00:59:59.460 | I think the natural thing that a thinking person would do is to step out of the spotlight
01:00:07.580 | and to deal with your doubt.
01:00:09.780 | And if you find yourself to reject the Word of God, then move away from your faith.
01:00:17.160 | Become what you think you are, you know?
01:00:20.740 | But stop trying to lead, you know what I mean?
01:00:24.960 | By definition of what you're saying, you can't lead because you rejected what Christianity
01:00:29.660 | stands for.
01:00:31.820 | So to me, this is very personal.
01:00:34.060 | This is not just objectively, you know, something's going on subject that I committed in my life.
01:00:38.900 | This is the God that I serve, that I love, that I'm willing to give my life for.
01:00:44.540 | And for other people who are standing on a pulpit like I'm standing on and to reject
01:00:50.940 | the God that I love and to say that now that the guy that I know, he's the real God.
01:00:57.640 | You are deceiving yourself and you are deceiving others and you are the wolf that the Bible
01:01:04.680 | talks about that is trying to lead people astray from God.
01:01:08.880 | And that is personally, again, it's very offensive.
01:01:13.960 | And that's why we're doing this podcast because there is no gray area here.
01:01:18.680 | This is not, this is not an in-house debate.
01:01:22.200 | Absolutely.
01:01:23.200 | Yeah.
01:01:24.200 | And as you think, as we think through that, I mean, it's eerie how far and wide that chasm
01:01:32.760 | is between those who would affirm this process of deconstruction versus for us, we're saying
01:01:39.800 | God's grace to us has been to give us this truth, the revelation of the gospel.
01:01:46.880 | And we hold on to that dear life, like that's everything, you know.
01:01:51.440 | And then now as we're sitting here together thinking through this, you're right, it is
01:01:55.080 | personal in the sense because, again, like you said, James and Pastor Peter, like we're
01:01:59.340 | shepherding people and we're trying to counsel people who do sometimes struggle with the
01:02:04.080 | assurance of their salvation.
01:02:06.280 | What has God given us to battle those moments and to rise out of those situations?
01:02:13.840 | He's given us in this generation, his precious truth that will stand the test of time and
01:02:18.920 | last forever.
01:02:20.440 | He's given us the spirit of God to illuminate that word to us.
01:02:24.440 | And so the only source that we have, the main, like the power of God and Jesus, you know,
01:02:30.080 | in his day, he would rebuke the people and say, "You didn't read the scripture, neither
01:02:33.040 | do you know the power of God."
01:02:35.080 | If you go down this path of deconstruction, you're going to miss it just like the previous
01:02:39.520 | generations.
01:02:40.520 | Yeah.
01:02:41.520 | You know, in a culture where it is anathema to say anything negative, I want to read Ephesians
01:02:53.820 | 5.11 here says this, "And do not participate in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead
01:03:01.040 | even expose them."
01:03:02.040 | Let me read that again.
01:03:03.400 | Ephesians 5.11 says, "And do not participate in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead
01:03:10.560 | even expose them."
01:03:12.280 | So when you hear the pastors here talking about why this is personal to them, you have
01:03:19.680 | to understand that these are pastors who week in and week out are meeting with people, praying
01:03:28.880 | with people, praying that they will grow in their faith and not fall away from the faith,
01:03:36.120 | but grow in their faith.
01:03:38.280 | So then when you see out in the culture, not just some fringe group here, but a phenomenon
01:03:46.320 | of where it is virtuous to lose your faith, to scale back on it, and at the ultimate end
01:03:53.920 | of it to disbelieve in the authority, to not believe in the authority of God, and to somehow
01:03:59.760 | even maintain that you are a Christian, that's incredibly deceptive.
01:04:05.880 | And again, it's one thing to be on your way to hell and to know it.
01:04:11.680 | That is infinitely better, because at least you know you're on the way to hell.
01:04:16.400 | There's hope for you.
01:04:17.400 | But if you're on the road to hell and you believe you're on the way to heaven, that
01:04:20.600 | is exponentially worse, because you don't even know which way you're going.
01:04:26.040 | So for the listener here, when you hear the pastors say that this is personal to them,
01:04:31.640 | I really want you to kind of put yourself in their situation.
01:04:37.480 | How they're meeting with people of various ages, but people who are struggling to know
01:04:42.760 | God, and then all of a sudden you hear out in this Christian culture that you can be
01:04:47.480 | a Christian and not have the authority of God in your life.
01:04:54.480 | The authority of the Bible is the authority of God, to not have that in your life.
01:04:59.000 | How dastardly that is to hear that.
01:05:05.720 | It's already been an hour here.
01:05:07.080 | We're approaching 58 minutes.
01:05:08.080 | I'm looking at it.
01:05:09.440 | We can go on and on and on, but that's not realistic.
01:05:14.280 | I just want any closing comments, Pastor Peter, Pastor Mark?
01:05:17.600 | I just want to reiterate what Pastor Mark said in the beginning.
01:05:23.260 | My frustration is not with young Christians who have questions, because our church is
01:05:30.120 | filled with people who have a lot of questions.
01:05:32.360 | They're in the beginning process of growing in their faith.
01:05:37.560 | How do you answer these questions?
01:05:38.920 | And this is all part of sanctification.
01:05:42.940 | My frustration is with people who claim to be leaders, and they are not.
01:05:49.240 | By definition, they are not.
01:05:51.440 | A leader is somebody that others look to because they're ahead of you.
01:05:56.720 | They're ahead of you in faith.
01:05:58.320 | They're ahead of you in their walk with God.
01:06:01.760 | But when somebody who is ahead of you are saying things, and clearly, by definition,
01:06:08.780 | they're not ahead of you.
01:06:10.840 | They're maybe even behind you, but yet they refuse to get off the spotlight.
01:06:18.840 | Those are the people that I want to give warning to.
01:06:22.440 | And so I want to encourage, and again, we're doing this for our church members, and don't
01:06:30.280 | be afraid to come and ask questions, just like what Elder James said, even inerrancy.
01:06:37.280 | How are you going to be confident about inerrancy, about the church, why we do certain things,
01:06:41.720 | why we preach certain things, what the Bible says, if you don't ask.
01:06:45.520 | The Bible welcomes questions, right?
01:06:51.300 | But don't go from that to, "Now I'm going to lead the church."
01:06:55.720 | Don't be asking those questions and then be frustrated that you're not given leadership.
01:07:00.520 | Because by definition, that's not where you ought to be.
01:07:03.960 | So again, I just want to reiterate, we welcome questions.
01:07:08.580 | Those of you who are doubting in your faith, to come and search, seek, ask, knock.
01:07:14.160 | And Jesus said that he won't answer, he'll open the door.
01:07:16.900 | And so that still stands, and we welcome that.
01:07:20.840 | And that would only strengthen the church.
01:07:22.800 | - Yeah, and you know, just real quick, ask us questions about anything, whether it's
01:07:29.080 | inerrancy or evolution or philosophy.
01:07:32.140 | I mean, anything, and there's no subject that is off limits.
01:07:37.440 | I just want to just add that real briefly.
01:07:40.660 | Two things for me, riding off of the topic of leadership.
01:07:45.080 | For us as leaders here, there's going to be a tension.
01:07:47.520 | For us too, we're leading, but we have to be humble with it.
01:07:50.400 | How do you accomplish that?
01:07:51.400 | Is I make sure that what I am speaking comes from the authority of the scripture, therefore
01:07:56.360 | it's not me, right?
01:07:58.440 | But the problem that I see with this movement of deconstruction, a lot of times they'll
01:08:01.880 | ask, sometimes within articles and conversations, they'll say, "Well, scripture says certain
01:08:07.160 | things like if you're doubting, you're double-minded, that the unbelieving heart is evil," all that
01:08:11.800 | kind of thing.
01:08:13.040 | But even me as a pastor, I doubt, and therefore now it's okay.
01:08:15.920 | And what you see is a legitimization based on you as a leader, right?
01:08:21.120 | I've mentioned that because a good Christian leader speaks on behalf of God to the people,
01:08:26.920 | saying this is what the word of God says to you so that you would find life in it, right?
01:08:32.600 | In Christ.
01:08:34.240 | The idea there is, but what I see in this movement is, I think it's being popularized
01:08:38.920 | because some of the leaders more so say things that people can maybe resonate with, and they're
01:08:44.280 | more so speaking on behalf of the people, saying, "Yeah, that's our struggle too."
01:08:49.160 | He's articulating what I'm feeling, right?
01:08:52.440 | That only goes so far.
01:08:53.760 | It's so short, right?
01:08:56.760 | Just like if a pastor gets up in the pulpit and say, "You know what?
01:09:00.080 | I'm just like you.
01:09:01.080 | I struggle with porn.
01:09:02.080 | I struggle with porn this week."
01:09:03.860 | You're not going to say, "Oh, even leaders struggle with porn, so it's okay."
01:09:08.660 | You wouldn't do that.
01:09:09.660 | You say, "He shouldn't be leading."
01:09:12.480 | But why does a pastor come up and say, "I doubt all of these things."
01:09:16.060 | Oh, he's a pastor.
01:09:17.060 | Even the pastor does, so this is okay.
01:09:20.300 | We should apply the same consistent standard in all areas, right?
01:09:26.040 | So we wouldn't think, "Oh, I committed adultery."
01:09:28.760 | I happen to be, "Oh, pastors commit adultery too, so that's okay.
01:09:32.200 | That's not okay.
01:09:33.800 | They shouldn't be in that position."
01:09:36.880 | And then my second point, sorry, I'm going a little long here.
01:09:39.760 | My second point is, my greatest admonition to Christians thinking about this deconstruction
01:09:44.840 | thing is, there has been an age-old sinful pattern where we pick and choose what we like
01:09:50.040 | about God and his church.
01:09:52.400 | This movement to me is no different.
01:09:55.280 | Don't call picking and choosing just general doubt or critical thinking.
01:09:58.760 | Again, there's different forms, and we've already acknowledged there's different degrees
01:10:02.680 | by which people come to situations where they're doubting or they're hurting and they have
01:10:07.680 | experiences.
01:10:08.680 | But what's being promulgated upon some of these articles and these Christian leaders,
01:10:12.840 | they are picking and choosing, and we dare not do that with God, right?
01:10:17.040 | And that's the biggest warning and caution, you can't pick and choose and have it on your
01:10:23.200 | terms.
01:10:24.200 | You know, I want to kind of just end with a quote by Spurgeon.
01:10:31.280 | He says a lot of great things on this topic, but this is a shorter quote, but this is Charles
01:10:36.400 | Spurgeon in "The Clue of the Maze."
01:10:38.760 | Charles Spurgeon in "The Clue of the Maze," he says this, quote, "Doubt dims and chills
01:10:44.880 | the day.
01:10:45.880 | A fog is over all things, and men move like Egypt's ancients when they felt the darkness.
01:10:53.120 | Oh, that this mist would lift.
01:10:56.280 | The best we can hope is that the present gloom may pass away right speedily and that the
01:11:02.280 | cloud may leave a dew behind to nourish a more intelligent and unquestioning faith.
01:11:09.360 | In this clammy skepticism, no race but the punies can be nurtured.
01:11:14.880 | Men who are greatly good are hillborn and love the fresh air of the mountains of truth."
01:11:21.400 | The paragraphs of this little book are not supposed to be an argument.
01:11:25.260 | It was not my aim to convince an opponent, but to assist a friend.
01:11:29.720 | How I have personally threaded the labyrinth of life thus far may be of helpful interest
01:11:36.520 | to some other soul which just now is in a maze.
01:11:40.560 | I hope that by these pages some true heart may be assisted to fight his doubts and gather
01:11:47.360 | strength.
01:11:48.360 | Let no man's heart fail him, for the prevalent skepticisms are but specters of the mind.
01:11:54.800 | Face them, and they fly.
01:11:56.600 | A great poet let fall the expression "honest doubt."
01:12:01.920 | How greedily it was clutched at.
01:12:04.880 | Modern unbelief is so short of the quality that it sees the label, and in season and
01:12:11.000 | out of season, it has advertised itself as "honest doubt."
01:12:16.140 | It was in dire need of a character.
01:12:19.680 | Feeble as our voice may be, we lift it on behalf of honest faith.
01:12:27.160 | That's in The Clue of the Maze by Charles Spurgeon.
01:12:30.400 | There's a lot more quotes here.
01:12:32.920 | I'm not going to quote them now because then that'll be an hour long.
01:12:37.120 | But if you think about that, what Spurgeon is saying was doubt was in such need of character.
01:12:43.280 | So some poet just said let's call it honest.
01:12:45.760 | And we view doubt on this pedestal when faith, when faith should be viewed on the pedestal.
01:12:56.320 | Yeah.
01:12:59.400 | So Pastor Mark, can you kind of close us in prayer?
01:13:04.040 | Sure.
01:13:05.040 | Yeah.
01:13:06.040 | That's great.
01:13:07.040 | Heavenly Father, our faith comes down to you, Lord.
01:13:10.240 | It's you that you have initiated your grace by sending to us your Son, sending to us your
01:13:17.140 | truth, and we receive it with grateful hands, Lord.
01:13:21.440 | I pray, Father God, that we would truly be immersed in that love, that we would recognize
01:13:28.920 | that the biblical authority is not just simply an intellectual exercise, but you revealing
01:13:35.160 | yourself through the Scripture.
01:13:36.660 | That is to us mercy and grace.
01:13:39.200 | And I pray, Father God, that rather than look at it with suspicion, rather than look at
01:13:43.240 | it with doubt, help us, Father God, to fully trust you.
01:13:46.920 | I pray, Father God, that we actually would hang on every word.
01:13:50.720 | I pray, Father God, that we would truly bank our entire lives, our future, our livelihood,
01:13:56.200 | our well-being, whether mental, heart, or more, that we would truly be devoted to you.
01:14:01.760 | I pray for anybody who is struggling because ultimately we struggle with the things that
01:14:06.440 | we see with our eyes and experience with our flesh.
01:14:09.440 | But I pray, Father God, that you would provide growth and faith.
01:14:13.280 | More love to you, Lord.
01:14:14.280 | We thank you in Christ's name.
01:14:15.760 | Amen.
01:14:16.760 | Amen.
01:14:17.760 | All right, guys, we will see you soon.
01:14:22.600 | As you could probably tell, my podcast equipment for group settings is a little less than my
01:14:29.800 | solo gig.
01:14:31.400 | I bring that up because as I was listening to that last portion of the recording, I was
01:14:35.680 | worried it might have been a little marred from the background noise, and it does appear
01:14:40.280 | that more background noise was picked up than I had hoped for.
01:14:43.920 | You're going to have to forgive me for that since we were recording at church and people
01:14:48.600 | were getting ready for an event, and they had no idea we were recording.
01:14:53.040 | But in any case, as I promised to answer Spurgeon with Spurgeon, here he is, "How then, says
01:15:01.640 | Spurgeon, am I to make my calling and election sure?
01:15:05.480 | Why, thus, if you would get out of a doubting state, get out of an idle state, if you would
01:15:11.720 | get out of a trembling state, get out of an indifferent, lukewarm state, for lukewarmness
01:15:17.080 | and doubting and laziness and trembling very naturally go hand in hand, if you would enjoy
01:15:22.360 | the eminent grace of the full assurance of faith under the blessed Spirit's influence
01:15:27.280 | and assistance, do what the Scripture tells you, give diligence to make your calling and
01:15:32.360 | election sure.
01:15:34.200 | Wherein shall you be diligent?
01:15:36.500 | Note how the Scripture has given us a list.
01:15:42.320 | Be diligent in your faith.
01:15:44.360 | Take care that your faith is that of the right kind, that it is not a creed but a credence,
01:15:49.120 | that it is not a mere belief of doctrine but a reception of doctrine into your heart and
01:15:54.160 | the practical light of the doctrine in your soul.
01:15:57.420 | Take care that your faith results from necessity, that you believe in Christ because you have
01:16:02.240 | nothing else to believe in.
01:16:04.640 | Take care it is simple faith, hanging alone on Christ, without any other dependence but
01:16:10.440 | Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
01:16:13.080 | And when you have given diligence about that, give diligence next to your courage, labor
01:16:18.600 | to get virtue, plead with God that He would give you the face of a lion, that you may
01:16:23.520 | never be afraid of any enemy, however much he may jeer or threaten you, but that you
01:16:29.040 | may, with a consciousness of right, go on boldly trusting in God.
01:16:34.280 | And having, by the help of the Holy Spirit, obtained that, study well the Scriptures and
01:16:40.000 | get knowledge.
01:16:41.360 | For knowledge of doctrine will tend very much to confirm your faith.
01:16:45.560 | Try to understand God's Word.
01:16:47.440 | Get a sensible spiritual idea of it.
01:16:50.540 | Get if you can, a system of divinity out of God's Bible.
01:16:53.960 | Put the doctrines together.
01:16:56.000 | Get real theological knowledge founded upon the infallible Word.
01:17:02.080 | Get a knowledge of that science which is most despised, but which is the most necessary
01:17:06.560 | of all, the science of Christ and of Him crucified, and of the great doctrines of grace.
01:17:13.040 | And when you have done this, add to your knowledge temperance.
01:17:16.920 | Take heed to your body.
01:17:18.160 | Be temperate there.
01:17:19.600 | Take heed to your soul.
01:17:21.120 | Be temperate there.
01:17:22.640 | Be not drunken with pride.
01:17:24.180 | Be not lifted up with self-confidence.
01:17:26.240 | Be temperate.
01:17:27.480 | Be not harsh towards your friends, nor bitter to your enemies.
01:17:32.400 | Get temperance of lips, temperance of life, temperance of heart, temperance of thought.
01:17:38.680 | Be not passionate.
01:17:39.820 | Be not carried away by every wind of doctrine.
01:17:43.760 | Get temperance, and then add to it, by God's Holy Spirit, patience.
01:17:47.840 | Ask Him to give you that patience which endures infliction, which, when it is tried, shall
01:17:53.120 | come forth as gold.
01:17:54.680 | Array yourself with patience, that you may not murmur in your sickness, that you may
01:17:59.040 | not curse God in your losses, nor be depressed in your afflictions.
01:18:03.800 | Pray without ceasing, until the Holy Spirit has nerved you with patience to endure unto
01:18:08.640 | the end.
01:18:09.920 | And when you have that, get godliness.
01:18:13.480 | Godliness is something more than religion.
01:18:15.560 | The most religious men may be the most godless men, and sometimes a godly man may seem to
01:18:21.000 | be irreligious.
01:18:22.640 | Let me just explain that seeming paradox.
01:18:25.000 | A real religious man is a man who sighs after sacraments, attends churches and chapels,
01:18:32.360 | and is outwardly good, but goes not farther.
01:18:35.200 | A godly man is a man who does not look so much to the dress as to the person.
01:18:39.840 | He looks not to the outward form, but to the inward and spiritual grace.
01:18:44.780 | He is a godly man as well as attentive to religion.
01:18:48.460 | Some men, however, are godly and to a great extent despise form.
01:18:53.040 | They may be godly without some degree of religion.
01:18:56.080 | But a man cannot be fully righteous without being godly in the true meaning of each of
01:19:00.920 | these words, though not in the general vulgar sense of them.
01:19:05.120 | Add to your patience an eye to God.
01:19:07.800 | Live in His sight.
01:19:08.800 | Dwell close to Him.
01:19:15.420 | Then to that, add brotherly love.
01:19:18.680 | Be loving towards all the members of Christ's church.
01:19:22.060 | Have a love to all the saints of every denomination.
01:19:25.460 | And then add to that charity which opens its arms to all men and loves them.
01:19:31.060 | And when you have got all these, then you will know your calling and election.
01:19:36.180 | And just in proportion, as you practice these heavenly rules of life in this heavenly manner,
01:19:42.060 | will you come to know that you were called and that you are elect.
01:19:45.580 | But by no other means can you attain to a knowledge of that except by the witness of
01:19:50.340 | the Spirit, bearing witness with your spirit that you were born of God, and then witnessing
01:19:55.220 | in your conscience that you were not what you were, but are a new man in Christ Jesus,
01:20:01.700 | and are therefore called and elected."
01:20:08.540 | That was Charles Spurgeon.
01:20:12.220 | Now before I end, I want to give into temptation one last time.
01:20:19.220 | This is a lot shorter, okay?
01:20:21.260 | But I want to leave you with some more Charles Spurgeon.
01:20:24.780 | This is regarding unbelief, and he states this elsewhere in the Clue of the Maze.
01:20:30.860 | In the Clue of the Maze, Spurgeon states, "How is it that no such trophy has ever been
01:20:39.180 | raised to the honor of unbelief?
01:20:42.560 | Will the poet of infidelity and the historian of skepticism yet appear?
01:20:48.500 | If so, what will be their record?
01:20:51.820 | Working righteousness and obtaining promises are rather out of the line of doubt, and it
01:20:57.580 | is not likely to endure much suffering to obtain a better resurrection, for it sneers
01:21:03.780 | at the mention of such a thing.
01:21:05.940 | The eulogist of doubt would have to content himself with lower achievements.
01:21:11.060 | But what would they be?
01:21:12.860 | What hospitals or orphanages has doubt erected?
01:21:16.780 | What missions to cannibal tribes has infidelity sustained?
01:21:21.120 | What fallen women or profligate men has skepticism acclaimed and new created?
01:21:27.760 | Sing, muse, if such a theme, so dark, so wrong, may find a muse to grace it with a song.
01:21:35.960 | The Milton of this subject may well turn out to be like him whom Gray describes in his
01:21:41.200 | elegy as mute and glorious.
01:21:44.460 | By their fruits ye shall know them.
01:21:47.340 | What are the precious outcomings of modern thought, which is the alias for new-fashioned
01:21:53.840 | unbelief?
01:21:55.760 | We hear the shouts of the craftsmen as they repeat their cry, "Great is Diana of the
01:22:00.840 | Ephesians!"
01:22:02.520 | But where are the holy and happy results of the advanced criticism which is so busily
01:22:08.760 | undermining the foundations of faith?
01:22:16.760 | Thanks for making it to the end.
01:22:18.480 | I'll continue to try to make the journey worth it.
01:22:23.060 | To him be honor, glory, and eternal dominion.
01:22:50.620 | Amen.
01:22:58.260 | (upbeat music)