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00:00:00.000 | I am James Hong and welcome to the Surpassing Value Podcast.

00:00:15.620 | The fuel and desire for this podcast was born out of a compulsion to flesh out what's

00:00:19.740 | been going on in the midst of an ocean of megaphones that may not actually withstand

00:00:24.600 | the test of scrutiny.

00:00:26.620 | As a signpost theologian, I will do my best to filter out the impurities and point people

00:00:32.320 | in the right direction.

00:00:41.580 | Berean Community Church, this is another one of those bonus episodes where the surpassing

00:00:48.720 | value crosses over with BCC much like the bonus episode I did with Pastor Peter Kim

00:00:56.680 | on the Ravi Zacharias scandal.

00:00:59.100 | It's sort of like that, but this one is going to be involving the rest of the elders and

00:01:03.700 | pastors as well.

00:01:05.820 | Given our church's anniversary is coming up in a couple days and with the purchase of

00:01:11.240 | our new building, I thought it would be appropriate to revisit our origins.

00:01:17.000 | We all know the importance of studying history, but nonetheless I want to read to you some

00:01:21.920 | various quotes before we get into this.

00:01:25.500 | Marcus Garvey said it like this, "A people without the knowledge of their past history,

00:01:32.240 | origin and culture is like a tree without roots."

00:01:35.820 | "A people without the knowledge of their past history, origin and culture is like a

00:01:43.720 | tree without roots."

00:01:45.720 | Robert Heinlein said something similar, he said this, "A generation which ignores history

00:01:51.600 | has no past and no future."

00:01:54.280 | "A generation which ignores history has no past and no future."

00:02:01.440 | Most importantly, Deuteronomy 5.15 states, "And you shall remember that you were a slave

00:02:07.440 | in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand

00:02:12.960 | and an outstretched arm.

00:02:15.200 | Therefore the Lord your God commanded you to celebrate the Sabbath day."

00:02:20.480 | I think you get my point.

00:02:22.680 | As God has been so gracious to Beroean Community Church, we could easily lose sight of His

00:02:29.080 | graciousness and take what He has given us for granted if we forget where we came from.

00:02:36.200 | And I know people have heard various stories about how the church came to be from various

00:02:40.160 | sources but we're adding new people all the time and I thought it might also be good if

00:02:46.000 | we could get some linear telling of a truncated version.

00:02:50.280 | So with that I've asked the other leaders to carve out some time so we could accomplish

00:02:55.420 | just that.

00:02:57.200 | And although we are called by God to honor faithful leaders as stated in 1 Thessalonians

00:03:05.280 | 5, 12-13, my goal here is to highlight the God who works through flawed men.

00:03:13.280 | With that said, I hope this episode serves to be edifying.

00:03:16.640 | Be warned though, this is a long-form podcast episode.

00:03:23.240 | The substance of the episode is about an hour and 45 minutes.

00:03:27.680 | So with that, I hope you are edified and I hope you enjoy.

00:03:34.200 | Burien Community Church, as promised, this is the History of Burien Community Church

00:03:38.760 | episode.

00:03:40.480 | I've gathered all the elders and pastors, the entire leadership, all seven of us for

00:03:45.880 | this episode.

00:03:46.880 | I'm going to ask everyone to just kind of introduce themselves starting from my left

00:03:50.880 | so that as we're talking you guys could know which voice is who for the people who don't

00:03:58.560 | know the leaders maybe as well as others, you can connect the voices.

00:04:03.000 | And so starting from my left, Pastor Peter, if you could say hi.

00:04:06.040 | Hello.

00:04:07.040 | This is Pastor Peter Kim.

00:04:08.040 | This is Pastor Peter Chung.

00:04:11.240 | This is Elder Phillip.

00:04:12.240 | Pastor Nathan.

00:04:13.240 | Hey, it's Pastor Mark.

00:04:14.240 | Hey guys, it's Elder Joe.

00:04:17.680 | All right.

00:04:18.680 | So I want to start off, since this is a history episode, I think it might be prudent to kind

00:04:27.040 | of go in chronological order.

00:04:28.920 | And I think a fact that most people might not know is that our senior pastor, Pastor

00:04:33.720 | Peter Kim, actually wasn't the first member.

00:04:37.400 | It was actually Elder Joe at the time.

00:04:40.600 | And so Elder Joe, if you can kind of tell us about that.

00:04:43.960 | How old were you when the church started?

00:04:47.580 | Maybe give us a little bit before that because I know a little bit and that helps to kind

00:04:52.440 | of bring into clarity the entire history of Burien Community Church.

00:04:57.160 | So kind of, if you can talk about that a little bit.

00:05:00.080 | Well, I was at the church obviously before it started.

00:05:05.040 | The church officially started in 1997, which would put me at my sophomore year in college.

00:05:12.220 | So I was pretty young back then, but prior to Burien officially launching, our church,

00:05:19.120 | for those of you who may not know, was named Harvest Community Church.

00:05:24.560 | And I remember a meeting that we had back then where we sat in our old church building

00:05:33.280 | fellowship hall and we were discussing what our name should be.

00:05:38.880 | The interesting thing is we had some say into naming our church back then.

00:05:46.680 | And ultimately it came out where it was Harvest Community Church.

00:05:50.600 | And that retained for probably a year.

00:05:54.280 | And then Pastor Peter came in and we started really thinking through why we would want

00:06:01.720 | a name change and align with more of the philosophy.

00:06:05.720 | So after the name change, when did Pastor Peter come in?

00:06:09.320 | So Pastor Peter was one of the pastors that initiated that name change.

00:06:15.720 | So he was already there by that time.

00:06:18.240 | You mentioned you were a sophomore in college, so you were about 20?

00:06:21.480 | Yeah, approximately about 20 years old and very mature church, very mature.

00:06:28.360 | But that wasn't the first time you met Pastor Peter though.

00:06:31.200 | No, so I've known Pastor Peter since, interestingly enough, my son is 13 now, a seventh grader.

00:06:39.440 | And that's around the time where I met Pastor Peter.

00:06:41.920 | He came to the Korean church that I was part of and that's where I first met him.

00:06:49.080 | He was coming in as a high school pastor, I believe.

00:06:51.920 | That was Irvine Baptist?

00:06:52.920 | Yes, it was.

00:06:53.920 | Okay.

00:06:54.920 | And that's Irvine Baptist is over here near Jeffrey and Walnut.

00:06:58.240 | It's still there.

00:06:59.240 | It's still there.

00:07:00.240 | Yeah.

00:07:01.240 | Pastor, so can you tell us a little bit about that, about when you come into Harvest Community

00:07:04.400 | Church at the time, what were the circumstances that led to you coming there?

00:07:08.640 | What were you doing before?

00:07:10.440 | Well, I was a youth pastor at Irvine Baptist where Elder Joe was a student and then I was

00:07:18.080 | also his older sister's youth pastor.

00:07:20.920 | And then, so I was there probably about five years and I was a youth pastor for one year

00:07:26.480 | and then I was a college and EM pastor for the four years after that.

00:07:31.040 | And then there was a lot of problems happening in the Korean side and then my former youth

00:07:35.440 | pastor asked me to come and join him at a church in Gardena.

00:07:39.600 | And so I actually went there for a year and then that church ended up falling apart.

00:07:44.300 | And then, so I was in between churches and so I heard that the former EM pastor came

00:07:52.160 | in after I left and he's the one who got permission, got it inaugurated, registered and all that.

00:07:58.680 | But then two to three months after it started, he ended up leaving.

00:08:03.560 | And so the official launch of the church happened 1997, I think in January or something.

00:08:10.160 | And then they had the inauguration service in April of 1997, which I was supposed to

00:08:15.600 | come and participate in but I couldn't because my first son was born on that same day.

00:08:22.040 | And then I didn't officially join the church I think until August of that year.

00:08:28.220 | So it was already like they were physically meeting, again, you know, within that church

00:08:33.680 | for about six months or so before I came.

00:08:38.280 | So that's kind of how it started and I came in because the guy who got it inaugurated

00:08:44.000 | ended up taking off.

00:08:45.440 | - Oh, okay.

00:08:46.440 | - Yeah.

00:08:47.440 | - So, you know, it's funny here because as I'm kind of going through a timeline of events,

00:08:51.600 | it's January of 1997 and the church's name is Harvest Community Church.

00:08:55.960 | And then, you know, the inauguration event is April 17th of 1997.

00:09:03.840 | - 12th.

00:09:04.840 | - April 12th, I'm sorry, April 12th of 1997.

00:09:07.960 | And it's still obviously Harvest Community Church at that time.

00:09:12.060 | If you're picking up on this, the name of our church is not Harvest Community Church.

00:09:17.520 | So if you kind of take us through that as well, Pastor Peter, you come in about August

00:09:22.600 | of '97, take us through the events and up until the name change.

00:09:25.840 | - Well, name change actually didn't happen until maybe about a year and a half after

00:09:30.840 | I came in.

00:09:31.840 | And to be honest, I never liked the name.

00:09:36.200 | And the reason why was because it was so generic, there's so many Harvest Churches.

00:09:42.080 | And then what actually kind of was the catalyst to change the name was because there was another

00:09:46.920 | church, EM Ministry, that came out of Bethel, and they came out with 180 people.

00:09:52.680 | And so they were named First Harvest Church.

00:09:56.160 | And so our church was constantly being, thinking that that was the church, you know, I would

00:10:00.760 | meet people and say, you know, I go to Harvest Community Churches.

00:10:04.320 | And then they would say, oh, yeah, I know your pastor, Pastor Rick, right, so actually

00:10:08.560 | I'm the pastor.

00:10:10.000 | And then so I would always have to re-explain that we're not that church, because that church

00:10:13.200 | was much bigger at that time.

00:10:15.340 | And this is when our church was like 30 or less with, you know, half high school students,

00:10:20.680 | half college students.

00:10:21.680 | So no one knew who we were.

00:10:23.800 | And then to be honest, the name that I actually wanted was Axe, because that was a name that

00:10:31.760 | I was using for our homeless ministry, Alliance of Christians Training for Service was the

00:10:36.400 | acronym for Axe.

00:10:37.400 | In fact, my Costco card still has Axe on it.

00:10:42.640 | But Berean Community Church was something that we collectively, at least the people

00:10:47.320 | who were in leadership at that time, wanted, because it kind of represented our church

00:10:51.920 | vision, the name wise.

00:10:54.560 | So that's how that happened.

00:10:57.000 | Yeah, well, so after the church is inaugurated in April, and then August, you come on board.

00:11:05.000 | I know this pastor kind of left, and then you become the sole pastor.

00:11:11.080 | Can you kind of walk us through that?

00:11:12.960 | How did that happen?

00:11:13.960 | Yeah, that's a very complicated story, because he's somebody that I knew, and he was the

00:11:21.000 | former EM pastor before I came.

00:11:22.920 | And he's the guy who invited me to come to Irvine Baptist to begin with.

00:11:26.480 | He's actually Luke King's uncle.

00:11:29.880 | And so I came in, he actually wanted to work together for a while at Irvine Baptist.

00:11:35.720 | But again, I was in between churches at that time, and I was kind of wrestling with, you

00:11:39.600 | know, if I wanted to continue in ministry, to be honest.

00:11:43.400 | And I actually had friends who were asking me to plant a church, but I wasn't in a state

00:11:49.060 | of mind wanting to plant a church.

00:11:51.200 | So when I heard he left, I think Joe was the one who called me saying that, you know, there's

00:11:58.160 | nobody here, you know, like if you're in between church, you know, would you come?

00:12:03.680 | And so I came really to kind of help, not necessarily to plant the church.

00:12:07.840 | The church was already planted, like technically.

00:12:10.960 | And so I just came to help, because these are guys that I knew since they were a youth

00:12:15.600 | group, and I just didn't want that group to fall apart.

00:12:18.520 | I was afraid that they were going to fall apart and they were going to leave the church.

00:12:21.800 | So I didn't really come for the church plant.

00:12:24.560 | I came to continue the work that I was doing with them, because I was concerned about them.

00:12:29.720 | Yeah.

00:12:30.720 | - So when you come in August, who are the pastors there?

00:12:35.240 | - So technically there wasn't a pastor, because he left.

00:12:39.680 | And then the youth pastor at that time, a guy named Jay Kim, he kind of stepped in,

00:12:44.440 | was preaching on Sunday, but there was no pastor.

00:12:47.100 | But basically he was left vacant for probably three or four months before I came.

00:12:51.400 | - So initially, you're coming in thinking you're going to help out, and you come in

00:12:56.720 | and all of a sudden, you're kind of like the last man standing, but you're also the new

00:13:01.600 | guy.

00:13:02.600 | Is that kind of...

00:13:03.600 | - I am the new guy, because I just came in, but I'm also the old guy, because everybody

00:13:08.960 | there were guys that I ministered to when they were in high school and college.

00:13:12.960 | So I was actually their pastor before I left.

00:13:15.480 | So I was just gone for a year.

00:13:17.520 | - So when you came in during that time, I know Elder Joe was there.

00:13:20.640 | Was there anyone else at church that was there at the time?

00:13:24.080 | - Tonya was a freshman.

00:13:26.120 | She was not a believer, but she was there.

00:13:29.040 | And then the others were in high school, so they weren't part of our group yet.

00:13:33.160 | They were still in high school.

00:13:35.080 | They were junior in high school when I came.

00:13:37.340 | So the guys who are turning 40 now were 16 at that time.

00:13:42.480 | - So in August, what are you thinking at this point?

00:13:46.440 | Because I mean, you're coming into a situation...

00:13:49.320 | - I came in because I felt like my Korean was good enough that I could have a good relationship

00:13:55.400 | with the Korean adults, and really to protect the group and protect the...

00:14:01.320 | I mean, at that time, they were kids.

00:14:04.440 | And I wasn't sure exactly if I was going to endure in ministry.

00:14:09.360 | And so if I am restored, my thought was I need to be restored here.

00:14:16.000 | Because even after I left, I could never...

00:14:18.080 | I was always thinking about this church and the guys who were there.

00:14:22.760 | So if I was at another church, obviously I couldn't come, but I was doing telemarketing

00:14:27.840 | at that time, just to pay bills.

00:14:31.000 | - So you weren't getting a full-time salary at the time?

00:14:33.200 | - No.

00:14:34.200 | So I had a church that wanted me there, but I wasn't sure if I wanted to be.

00:14:39.400 | That's why I was doing telemarketing, just to kind of make the ends meet, which I was

00:14:43.240 | pretty miserable.

00:14:44.240 | It was probably all the jobs I had, I hated that job the most.

00:14:48.640 | Yeah.

00:14:49.640 | Anyway, but it was during that time that I got contacted by them.

00:14:52.800 | But interestingly enough, the Korean side also called me at the same time, asked me

00:14:57.080 | to come and basically pull that ministry away, shut down the church and start the EM.

00:15:03.040 | And I told them I couldn't do that.

00:15:04.320 | And that's what eventually led to us having to leave that building.

00:15:09.720 | - Yeah, okay.

00:15:10.720 | So walk us through the first couple of years when you come on board in August.

00:15:14.520 | I mean, you mentioned leaving the building, and I know the details about that, but walk

00:15:18.240 | us through what that was like and what happened.

00:15:21.320 | - Well, not to rehash everything, there's a lot that happened, even with the pastors.

00:15:27.360 | After I came back, the guy who left actually ended up rejoining us, because he's always

00:15:32.900 | wanted to work together, but once he found out that I came back, he actually came back

00:15:37.800 | to support work.

00:15:38.800 | And then Pastor Jay, at that time he was a pastor, he's not a pastor anymore.

00:15:43.720 | So the three of us were actually working together.

00:15:45.920 | So we were at the church for about a year.

00:15:48.680 | And then the church went from 20 to, I think at one point 70, within the first year.

00:15:54.480 | So everybody at CCM and a lot of people in KCM was coming, mainly because our praise

00:16:00.040 | team was really good.

00:16:02.400 | And so they came for the praise, and then at the end of the year, we decided we need

00:16:06.000 | to do membership.

00:16:07.500 | And at that time, our membership was like six months long.

00:16:11.240 | So basically, they would have service, go have lunch, come back, and then about an hour

00:16:17.160 | and a half for six months.

00:16:19.160 | And that thinned out the church.

00:16:21.320 | We went from 1520 to 7080, back to maybe about 2025, after the membership happened.

00:16:29.320 | Yeah, so it was really exciting.

00:16:33.640 | So you're saying we should go from eight weeks to six months.

00:16:36.040 | Okay, got that.

00:16:37.040 | Got that.

00:16:38.040 | Okay, well, we'll investigate that, Pastor Peter.

00:16:39.320 | But anyway, what led to us leaving was the senior pastor, interim pastor for the Korean

00:16:43.880 | side, our visions didn't line up.

00:16:46.080 | He wanted us to be more Korean, he wanted us to be more charismatic, and there's a lot

00:16:50.240 | of other stuff happened.

00:16:51.240 | But at the end, he didn't feel like we fit in.

00:16:55.080 | And so how many years was at that period where you are just kind of naturally detached?

00:17:03.640 | From the Korean side?

00:17:04.640 | From the Korean side.

00:17:05.640 | Oh, from the get go.

00:17:06.640 | So I would say two years?

00:17:08.900 | Two years.

00:17:09.900 | Two years.

00:17:10.900 | And so two years, you're with the Korean side.

00:17:13.120 | And then after two years, physically leave.

00:17:15.840 | This is we're talking probably 1999-2000 at this point.

00:17:20.040 | So when you leave the Korean side, 1999-2000, around there, how many people do you have

00:17:27.120 | with you?

00:17:29.860 | The people in the EM that was actually physically with us that was not in high school, probably

00:17:34.560 | 14.

00:17:35.560 | 14.

00:17:36.560 | And when you say not in high school, the high school kids didn't come with you, obviously.

00:17:41.040 | They did.

00:17:42.040 | Oh, they did.

00:17:43.040 | Okay.

00:17:44.040 | A few of them.

00:17:45.040 | Actually, the parents sent them.

00:17:46.040 | Okay.

00:17:47.040 | Parents sent them because once we left, there was nobody in the EM.

00:17:48.680 | Like all the teachers were, even though we only had 15-20 people.

00:17:51.600 | Oh, actually, we had probably about 25 in the EM, but a good chunk of them, when we

00:17:57.880 | left, they stayed there or something happened.

00:18:01.520 | So we had maybe about 15-20 come with us.

00:18:04.760 | And then the college, some of the, sort of their senior in high school, they didn't graduate

00:18:08.800 | high school yet.

00:18:09.800 | So some of them joined us because the parents wanted them to come with us because we were

00:18:13.160 | their teachers.

00:18:14.160 | So that was, like, David Rim, Kevin Osako, Aaron Choi came later, so maybe about another

00:18:24.200 | 8 of them.

00:18:25.920 | So our total number was about 25.

00:18:27.960 | Yeah.

00:18:28.960 | David Rim, Kevin Osako, they're in high school at the time.

00:18:32.560 | Kevin Osako.

00:18:33.560 | No, no, no.

00:18:34.560 | Sorry.

00:18:35.560 | They would be, like, first year college.

00:18:36.560 | No, they were still in high school.

00:18:38.400 | We came out, like, around February or March, so they were at the tail end of their high

00:18:42.600 | school.

00:18:43.600 | So you're in 1999.

00:18:44.600 | Same year.

00:18:45.600 | Yeah.

00:18:46.600 | Okay.

00:18:47.600 | At what point did we do the name change?

00:18:48.600 | So it was about a year into that, after we left, that we were at Tustin Baptist.

00:18:55.000 | And so they allowed us to use the room as long as we took care of their kids.

00:18:59.840 | So we're kind of in a similar situation because there was no way, we couldn't afford to go

00:19:03.040 | anywhere.

00:19:04.040 | We didn't have money to pay rent.

00:19:06.360 | So we were in a similar situation, but at another church.

00:19:10.040 | And it was about a year into it, we decided to change the name.

00:19:14.800 | Okay.

00:19:15.800 | So after we detached from the initial Korean side, we, by necessity, go to another Korean

00:19:21.120 | side.

00:19:22.160 | And then is it at that place that we changed the name?

00:19:24.840 | Yes.

00:19:25.840 | Okay.

00:19:26.840 | So it's at Tustin Baptist.

00:19:27.840 | Well, when we were at Tustin Baptist.

00:19:28.840 | When we were at Tustin Baptist.

00:19:29.840 | So we carried the name Harvest Community Church to Tustin Baptist.

00:19:33.480 | Yeah.

00:19:34.480 | So what led to the name change from Harvest?

00:19:36.720 | You kind of touched upon it, but what was the actual breaking point where we're like,

00:19:41.280 | "Well, let's change our name."

00:19:43.880 | Well, I always wanted to change it at some point, but the catalyst was we were constantly

00:19:49.600 | getting confused with First Harvest.

00:19:52.720 | And I actually remember when I first came to Berean, they would play in a softball tournament.

00:19:57.840 | And then I would hear stories about, "Yeah, well, you know, First Harvest and Harvest

00:20:01.920 | getting confused."

00:20:02.920 | And I remember one older dude tapping me saying, "Did you know your church used to be called

00:20:08.520 | Harvest?"

00:20:09.520 | And I remember saying, "That's not true."

00:20:11.200 | But it was true.

00:20:12.200 | And it wasn't Greg Laurie's Harvest.

00:20:14.840 | It was our Harvest.

00:20:15.840 | And at that time, our church, we were struggling.

00:20:19.360 | We had maybe 30 people and then half of them were students, more than half of them.

00:20:26.120 | We had maybe like two working people.

00:20:28.400 | And then that church was like, they came out with 170.

00:20:31.120 | They had full-blown staff.

00:20:33.080 | And there weren't, at Korean American, the Asian American churches, there was only like

00:20:37.880 | one or two.

00:20:38.880 | You know what I mean?

00:20:40.040 | So that was the church that everybody knew in Orange County.

00:20:43.080 | Our church was like, you know, nobody knew who we were.

00:20:47.280 | And I didn't feel the need to change it because it wasn't like we were trying to advertise.

00:20:52.300 | But I didn't like the name anyway.

00:20:53.800 | So it was kind of like, that was kind of like a catalyst, "Let's choose a name that we agree

00:20:57.880 | on."

00:20:58.880 | You know, Pastor Peter, I know you don't like talking about this, but you know, just

00:21:03.760 | curious, you don't have to go too deep into it, but how are you getting supported financially

00:21:07.840 | during these years?

00:21:09.800 | I mean, basically, we paid rent, whatever we could.

00:21:13.880 | I mean, they didn't charge much, but we did pay some.

00:21:17.820 | And then whatever left over was my salary, basically.

00:21:20.720 | And then Pastor Mark came in maybe about three years after that, three or four years after

00:21:25.240 | that.

00:21:26.240 | So he knows, because he was in charge of taking the record.

00:21:29.240 | So some weeks, it was like $40 was the offering, because each college student would get $1

00:21:38.760 | if they were faithful.

00:21:39.760 | So $40.

00:21:40.760 | And then some weeks it would be $400.

00:21:43.540 | So I think our total budget per month was maybe about $2,500 to $3,000 a month.

00:21:50.640 | We're talking gross, obviously.

00:21:52.040 | Gross, yeah.

00:21:53.040 | Gross, right.

00:21:54.040 | There's no health insurance, there's nothing.

00:21:56.280 | It's just whatever was left over became my salary at that time.

00:21:59.880 | And so obviously, I had to have different jobs.

00:22:04.320 | So I worked selling stuff in swap meet, telemarketing, washing cars.

00:22:09.720 | I mean, that happened before, but any job just to support.

00:22:13.720 | And then the thing that I had the longest was I was a ESL teacher at La Marada School

00:22:17.600 | District for about five years, and that's what supported us.

00:22:20.920 | So by necessity, just by pure necessity, you had to have side jobs in order to keep the

00:22:27.440 | church running.

00:22:28.440 | It kind of begs the question, well, not begs, it raises the question, excuse me.

00:22:35.680 | Why did you stick around?

00:22:36.680 | Like I said, when I came to church, I didn't come with the vision of planting a church.

00:22:41.760 | I came because I was concerned about the kids.

00:22:45.140 | And then once I got here, I got reattached, and if I left, I didn't think they would survive.

00:22:55.400 | So by that time, I had two kids and then a third kid on the way, and then so obviously

00:23:01.980 | it made it even tougher.

00:23:04.260 | But it was kind of like, at that time, it was like having, they were all like my kids.

00:23:10.080 | So even though, like I'm only nine years older than Joe, but I've known him since he was

00:23:14.500 | in junior high school.

00:23:16.100 | And then the other people, they were in high school, they were literally kids when I met

00:23:19.060 | them.

00:23:20.060 | So even though I'm only like 12, 13 years older, they were like my kids, because I was

00:23:25.220 | already married and had kids when they were in junior high school.

00:23:29.380 | And so as an adult now, now I'm 53 and these guys are turning 40, like in a social setting,

00:23:37.380 | you know, 13 years isn't that huge of a gap, but because I've known them since they were

00:23:42.340 | kids, like at that time, they felt more like my kids.

00:23:46.300 | Like I wasn't just their pastor, you know, like Joe, you know, when he was learning how

00:23:52.020 | to drive, Esther was the one who got in the car, and he used to chauffeur me when I lost

00:23:57.860 | my license for godly reasons.

00:24:01.180 | So he's the one who used to pick me up from my home, and if their car broke down, I was

00:24:05.100 | the one who went out and helped them fix their car.

00:24:08.140 | You know, like church, like college application, family issues, you know, so it wasn't just

00:24:13.980 | like a pastor, they literally lived at my house.

00:24:17.740 | Yeah.

00:24:18.740 | Yeah.

00:24:19.740 | Yeah.

00:24:20.740 | You know, I know also that you had a home in Corona at one point, and then you had to

00:24:29.220 | sell that home in Corona, you know, can you tell us a little bit about that?

00:24:33.060 | I know you don't like sharing that.

00:24:36.100 | And you probably didn't want me to ask the question, but I've asked the question so.

00:24:38.980 | Well, that was kind of at a breaking point in ministry where I just couldn't do both,

00:24:44.540 | you know, at that time.

00:24:45.540 | And then I, long story short, you know, there was a business that I was, I had to take care

00:24:50.220 | of in Vegas, I was going back and forth.

00:24:53.060 | And then I came very close to walking away or at least trying to get somebody.

00:24:59.380 | And I remember, I had that conversation with Joe, Elder Joe, being like, I don't think

00:25:03.580 | I can keep doing this.

00:25:05.380 | And maybe if we bring a younger guy who didn't have the financial need, then maybe I can

00:25:11.500 | just do a support work.

00:25:13.180 | So I remember, like, I was on the verge, and I remember him telling me, and obviously,

00:25:19.060 | you know, he didn't fully grasp what was going on, like, he knew mentally, but obviously

00:25:23.860 | he was young.

00:25:24.860 | And he said, if you left, the church isn't going to survive, which is probably true,

00:25:30.460 | you know.

00:25:32.140 | But inwardly I'm thinking, man, like I can't feed my kids, how am I going to keep doing

00:25:35.860 | this?

00:25:36.860 | Right?

00:25:37.860 | So I was kind of at a breaking point.

00:25:38.860 | And then so he's the first guy that I talked to, and then I talked to my mom, and then

00:25:43.580 | I thought she would say, "Hey, you've done enough, you need to leave."

00:25:46.940 | And she said, you know, "If God called you to do this, you can't do anything else."

00:25:51.420 | You know?

00:25:52.420 | Because she wasn't really that happy about me going to ministry in the first place.

00:25:55.580 | So when she said, "You can't, you can't leave," that was kind of a surprise to me that my

00:26:02.020 | mom said that to me.

00:26:03.860 | And then I talked to my wife, Esther, and then I knew Esther wanted me to quit, because

00:26:08.820 | it was so hard for her.

00:26:10.940 | And then she said, "As much as I want you to quit, I know you.

00:26:16.580 | If you could be happy and live a normal life as a businessman doing something, then, yeah,

00:26:24.620 | that's what I would want.

00:26:25.780 | But I know you.

00:26:26.780 | Like God called you, and I know sooner or later you're going to feel like you're not

00:26:33.060 | doing what you're supposed to do."

00:26:34.700 | So she's the one who kind of kicked me back in.

00:26:37.300 | But at that time if Joe said, "That's great," you know, if my mom said, "Good," and then

00:26:42.940 | Esther's like, "Finally," I think that would have been it.

00:26:45.500 | I didn't have the strength at that time to keep going.

00:26:49.340 | And it was because they kind of like - Joe just kind of told me the reality, which I

00:26:55.220 | already knew, you know.

00:26:57.340 | But at that time, I mean, even though he was young, he was kind of like the right-hand

00:27:01.580 | man at that time.

00:27:02.580 | Right.

00:27:03.580 | Yeah.

00:27:04.580 | Yeah, so if I got my history down correctly, you actually had to sell the home to make

00:27:10.020 | ends meet.

00:27:11.500 | That was like the only way that we could survive at that time, because it was so much credit

00:27:16.580 | card bill.

00:27:17.580 | I needed to pay it off.

00:27:18.580 | And then that's when the market was going crazy.

00:27:20.700 | Somebody would buy a house for $200,000 and sell it for $400,000 in two years.

00:27:25.180 | And then so found out that we had about $70,000 in equity in the house.

00:27:29.220 | I bought it for $170,000, and then we were able to sell it for $200,000.

00:27:32.900 | No, no, sorry, $130,000 and sell it for $200,000.

00:27:36.460 | So there was $70,000 or something like that equity in the house.

00:27:40.080 | And so I paid off all the credit card bills, and I had maybe about $30,000, $20,000 left.

00:27:45.660 | And then so my plan was to completely use that.

00:27:49.900 | And at the end of that, when I have nothing, then I have no choice.

00:27:53.740 | I have to get a full-time job and take care of my family.

00:27:55.940 | But as long as I had equity in the house, walking away at that time meant you walked

00:28:00.880 | away with something.

00:28:04.180 | I can't come before God and say, "I have nothing."

00:28:06.680 | So because there was equity in the house, my thought was more, I gave everything I have,

00:28:11.900 | and then I had three kids I got to take care of, and church can't support me, what other

00:28:16.420 | choice do I have?

00:28:17.420 | So I cannot walk away with a clear conscience.

00:28:18.940 | So in my mind, I was thinking that that was probably more likely.

00:28:22.980 | Now you would end up walking away.

00:28:23.980 | I would end up like, because I have no money.

00:28:25.860 | And I'm not walking away because I'm quitting.

00:28:27.620 | I'm walking away because I got to take care of my family.

00:28:31.020 | As the events are kind of playing out, I mean, you are physically, financially not being

00:28:36.980 | able to, you're not supported by the church.

00:28:39.140 | You have a family of three at the time or two?

00:28:42.300 | Three at that time.

00:28:43.300 | Yeah, a family of three at the time.

00:28:45.500 | There's no money coming in.

00:28:47.820 | The last reserve of money is in your home.

00:28:49.740 | And so you kind of sell that, thinking, well, if this runs out, then you've done everything

00:28:54.860 | you could.

00:28:55.860 | Everyone's called to take care of their family.

00:28:58.340 | You're worse than an unbeliever if you don't.

00:29:00.940 | So humanly speaking, you're thinking, this is it, right?

00:29:03.580 | I mean, it's likely going to run out, but it didn't run out.

00:29:08.540 | It didn't run out.

00:29:09.940 | Well, what happened was, and Joe was actually there when my lights got turned off.

00:29:15.380 | I came back from Vegas, and Faith was an infant.

00:29:19.460 | And then Esther walked out of the room saying, "Oh, how come the lights didn't turn off?"

00:29:24.580 | And she's just kind of like, "Ha, ha, ha, they came and turned it off, because I didn't

00:29:27.700 | pay the bills."

00:29:28.700 | So Joe just happened to be in the house when that happened.

00:29:33.820 | And I think that's when he kind of realized, oh, shit, this is bad.

00:29:36.820 | What were you thinking when that happened, Joe?

00:29:40.060 | Well, again, I already knew, because I was, interestingly enough, at that time, I was

00:29:47.180 | going with Pastor Peter to Vegas once in a while when I could for his business.

00:29:52.620 | And then I was seeing the issues of how this was affecting him, having to drive four hours

00:30:02.940 | every week.

00:30:04.420 | And I saw it on Esther, he would be gone.

00:30:08.740 | So I mean, I was already in the standpoint of, this can't continue like this.

00:30:17.700 | A side note, at one time, the church gathered with those who were working.

00:30:23.620 | And we discussed kind of like a monthly stipend, we would pitch in more just to be able to

00:30:32.460 | give to Pastor Peter for him to survive.

00:30:34.980 | So I mean, everyone knew, most of us were too young, but some of us at that time were

00:30:42.060 | working finally.

00:30:46.140 | But knowing and talking to him on a weekly basis, I knew it was getting harder and harder.

00:30:54.620 | Yeah.

00:30:55.620 | So the equity you had in your home as reserve for your savings actually does run out.

00:31:01.740 | How are you sustained?

00:31:03.300 | So after we sold the house, we moved to Irvine, and then we got a house where we were able

00:31:09.660 | to take care of my parents.

00:31:10.660 | Well, you're renting.

00:31:11.660 | When you say not house, you're renting a house.

00:31:13.660 | Yeah, we're renting.

00:31:14.660 | And then all the thing happened out of that house, like all the Bible studies, meetings,

00:31:19.260 | because that's all we had.

00:31:20.940 | We were meeting at UC Irvine, but UC Irvine started ticketing people, so we couldn't meet

00:31:25.500 | there anymore.

00:31:26.500 | So that's why the Bible study moved to my house.

00:31:28.980 | And then it just started growing, and that's about the time when you came, right?

00:31:33.860 | And then Pastor Mark was, I think, already there, right, a couple of years before that.

00:31:38.460 | And then the church went from, we had 30, like in January, and then we had actually

00:31:44.060 | people leave.

00:31:45.060 | We had about 10 people leave, who were kind of like, you know, wanted to go somewhere

00:31:48.660 | bigger, you know, and then when, but when 10 people would leave, like one person would

00:31:52.900 | leave, one other person would come, you know.

00:31:55.340 | And I remember very distinctly, one of the first people who came to church at that time

00:31:58.460 | was Steve, Steve Lee, him and his gang buddies, the star tattoo gang buddies, they came in,

00:32:08.940 | and then another couple would leave, and then another would come.

00:32:11.980 | So by June, we had 30, but half, like I would say about half the church, or one third of

00:32:17.180 | the church was new.

00:32:19.220 | And anybody who was disgruntled at that time basically took off.

00:32:22.060 | Like our church isn't going anywhere, and then when they took off, and then new blood

00:32:25.780 | came in.

00:32:26.780 | So we had, we had guys who were committed, and then, and then the new people came in.

00:32:30.860 | So the church completely changed within that year.

00:32:34.380 | So by the time we had our summer retreat, we had about 25 come, but there were 25, like

00:32:41.340 | committed people, who either are excited to be there, or the guys who were discipled and

00:32:45.820 | raised up, and you know, they were all leaders at TCM, and you know, Pastor Aaron was there,

00:32:50.420 | and you know, Ray Cosley came and preached, and then, so by August, the money ran out.

00:32:56.220 | But our church started to grow, you know.

00:32:58.820 | By August of 1999, or no, August of what year?

00:33:02.180 | It was, that was about five, six years into the church religion at that time.

00:33:06.060 | Okay.

00:33:07.060 | So it was like 2002, something like that.

00:33:09.660 | 2002.

00:33:10.660 | When did the lights go out in your home?

00:33:13.660 | That previous year.

00:33:14.660 | Okay.

00:33:15.660 | So if it was 2002, it was 2001, maybe.

00:33:19.200 | So how are you surviving from 2001, 2002?

00:33:21.460 | I don't know, credit card.

00:33:23.860 | Yeah.

00:33:24.860 | Yeah.

00:33:25.860 | So you ended up blasting through the reserves, and you ended up racking up a little bit more

00:33:31.580 | debt.

00:33:32.580 | Yeah, so what happened was, at the end of August, you know, now I can't quit, because

00:33:36.340 | the need in the church is growing, and we're starting to get momentum, new people are coming.

00:33:42.100 | And then, so that's when the elders, like I told them, I'm going to have to go back

00:33:45.140 | to work, and then that's when the elders got together.

00:33:47.180 | So at that time, it was Vince, Joe, and Phillip.

00:33:50.380 | Basically, they pitched in about like $100 each, and it wasn't a lot of money, but it

00:33:55.260 | was enough to, you know, survive.

00:33:57.540 | So at that time, we didn't have health insurance, we had, you know.

00:34:01.260 | So basically, my salary went from gross $2,000 to $2,300 gross, and then with nothing else.

00:34:08.540 | But that was just enough to like, to survive at that time.

00:34:12.880 | And so they did that for about a year, and then after that year, then the church got

00:34:18.660 | a little bit better, so they replaced that with the church.

00:34:21.580 | And then so, just by incrementally, it didn't go from that to like, "Oh, I'm taken care

00:34:25.500 | of."

00:34:26.500 | It was incrementally, it got better each year.

00:34:28.260 | - Yeah, and you know, what's interesting is, during this time, we leave Tustin Baptist,

00:34:34.660 | and the first place we go to is, correct me if I'm wrong, Lakeside Middle School.

00:34:40.260 | - Lakeside Middle School.

00:34:41.260 | - Lakeside Middle School.

00:34:42.260 | We're at Lakeside Middle School for how many years, would you say, Pastor Peter, around?

00:34:46.380 | - Three?

00:34:47.380 | About three, yeah, about three years.

00:34:49.860 | - Three years.

00:34:51.100 | And during this time while we're at Lakeside Middle School, while all this is going on,

00:34:54.260 | Pastor Mark, you come in.

00:34:56.100 | You come into Bruin Community Church.

00:34:58.200 | You came into UCI as a freshman, 2001, I believe, 2001.

00:35:05.460 | And the first church that you went to was Bruin Community Church.

00:35:09.060 | Is that...

00:35:10.060 | - So no, I did the typical thing where you come up to the freshman year, and then you

00:35:15.340 | just start checking all the churches.

00:35:18.340 | I tried, there was a few Christians in my dorm at UCI, so I tagged along, visited a

00:35:24.540 | few churches.

00:35:25.540 | And at that time, I even, from old friends that I knew in San Diego, visited churches

00:35:31.580 | out in Riverside.

00:35:33.620 | But I do remember the first time out to Bruin, an old friend of mine from San Diego, he said

00:35:39.420 | he had a sister who could take me to church.

00:35:42.940 | Found out that the sister didn't even go to Bruin, but just recommended it, picked me

00:35:47.580 | up, dropped me off kind of thing.

00:35:49.900 | And from the very first sermon, I was blown away, partially because I didn't know what

00:35:55.060 | he was talking about.

00:35:56.900 | But he was passionate, but I do recall he was talking about, if you actually believe

00:36:02.860 | in the ramifications of hell, and if you take a moment to actually meditate, then it would

00:36:09.620 | absolutely change everything about you, you know?

00:36:12.460 | I remember just thinking, he's absolutely right, I just don't know what he's saying.

00:36:17.500 | And then, it just so happened that actually one of my dorm mates or friends from the dorm

00:36:22.620 | was Abby, who was Aaron's sister.

00:36:25.180 | She said, well they have a Bible study, she knew about the Bible study that was happening

00:36:28.460 | at UCI, and it just so happened to be a skip and a hop away from the dorm.

00:36:34.140 | And so I'd go there, and at that time, Bruin was going through Revelation, and there was

00:36:38.660 | a little worksheet too that said, what is an apostle, what is prophecy here?

00:36:43.220 | And then I'm just sitting there thinking, well I don't know.

00:36:47.100 | So a ton of this stuff was going over my head, but at the same time, it was very convicting.

00:36:52.380 | Because as a young, at the time I was essentially a younger believer, having been converted

00:36:57.020 | at the end of high school.

00:36:59.500 | So I was passionate in love with Christ, but a lot of the things I just didn't know.

00:37:06.820 | Yeah, so that Bible study obviously was led by Pastor Peter, the Revelation one.

00:37:11.540 | I mean, he was the only pastor for years.

00:37:15.060 | I mean, we have four pastors now, but Midweek Bible Study, Sunday Sermon, that was all Pastor

00:37:24.020 | Peter.

00:37:25.020 | And I come after, you're actually the one that brings me to Bruin, but I remember going

00:37:29.700 | to Pastor Peter's house in my wetsuit, because I just thought, I'm gonna surf and then go

00:37:35.460 | to church, so I'll just come in my wetsuit.

00:37:38.820 | But this idea of where, you hear Pastor Peter's preaching, you don't understand all of it.

00:37:50.820 | You're not appreciating all of it, but you know that it's good.

00:37:55.540 | You know that it's good, and because of that, this is somewhere you want to be.

00:37:59.900 | This is something that you want to be a part of.

00:38:03.140 | And would you say that was how we all felt?

00:38:09.920 | We still feel that way, but that's something that was in the culture of the church.

00:38:15.380 | Would you say that?

00:38:16.380 | Yeah, absolutely.

00:38:17.380 | I think one of the, not necessarily a motto, but a repeated phrase, Pastor Peter would

00:38:24.340 | describe and the elders would describe is that God's people hear His voice and they

00:38:29.860 | know Him.

00:38:30.860 | That's something that was reiterated.

00:38:33.540 | And I think that was seen, because we would hear and then we would realize your personal

00:38:38.140 | discovery within the scriptures, that is the authority and power of God hitting you.

00:38:44.580 | So for me as a young Christian at the school, I actually felt like I was riddled with sin

00:38:50.460 | all around.

00:38:51.460 | Temptation to, I don't know, everything from lust to pride to everything you can experience,

00:38:58.140 | I just felt it.

00:38:59.180 | And then so there's this weird thought in my head, like I love Jesus, but why am I such

00:39:02.580 | a horrendous sinner?

00:39:06.060 | But I think realizing that the capture was as I was hearing the word, I felt like God's

00:39:11.780 | power, His power to change, His voice and authority to tell me what's right from wrong,

00:39:18.420 | that's all there.

00:39:19.420 | So we absolutely felt that kind of sentiment.

00:39:22.180 | That's why I think, even the Bible started to talk about it at his house, it was funny

00:39:27.660 | to me.

00:39:28.660 | We would be just sitting on his piano bench and then people would be lined up against

00:39:31.860 | the stairs, just like eagerly wanting to study, you know, we'd have questions, we'd come prepared.

00:39:37.680 | And so there was a ton of excitement just from that kind of pure attraction to the scriptures.

00:39:43.020 | I came after you, like I said, you're the one that brought me to Berean, but I remember

00:39:47.140 | those days and Pastor Peter would post 10 questions on the website.

00:39:53.100 | And back then it was like a bulletin board website, you know, I mean, it was very rudimentary.

00:39:57.340 | - Hey, hey, hey, that was me.

00:39:59.580 | - Oh, sorry.

00:40:00.580 | That was great.

00:40:01.580 | - So good.

00:40:02.580 | - That was the best website ever.

00:40:05.420 | But those questions were difficult and difficult in the sense that, I mean, it was typical

00:40:12.220 | for us to spend a couple of hours before the Bible study to come and, you know, like when

00:40:18.700 | we gathered on Friday, that was the entire church obviously gathering because it's not

00:40:22.700 | like there's not many of us to begin with.

00:40:25.740 | But we came prepared just 'cause that was what we all wanted.

00:40:30.540 | No one needed to really tell us to come prepared.

00:40:34.100 | That's my memory.

00:40:35.580 | But that's just something that we all did, you know, and the Bible study and the fellowship,

00:40:43.180 | just like today was so sweet, you know, it was extremely sweet because there's a small

00:40:47.060 | group of us, we don't have a building yet, we're meeting at the pastor's home and this

00:40:51.460 | is what we wanna do, right?

00:40:53.260 | - But Pastor Peter, what's your first memory of Pastor Mark?

00:40:56.300 | Do you remember him at all?

00:40:57.300 | - Yeah, of course I remember him.

00:41:00.740 | The girl who brought him was only at our church for maybe like a month and so that was probably

00:41:06.380 | the greatest contribution to our church that's only been for a month.

00:41:12.140 | And then Pastor Mark was like loved by everybody because it was a running joke at church like

00:41:18.660 | we would have one visitor per year and he was that one visitor.

00:41:22.900 | And then so, and everybody was like a couple years older than him so they treated him like

00:41:26.420 | a younger brother.

00:41:27.740 | So basically everybody targeted him, you know?

00:41:31.220 | So I didn't know where he was spiritually at that time.

00:41:33.820 | I knew he was a Christian but like where he was, but I just knew that, you know, all the

00:41:38.700 | older brothers were reaching out to him, all the older sisters were reaching out to him

00:41:41.940 | and then, so it didn't take much for him to get integrated into the church.

00:41:45.500 | That's why I remember like when we had the welcome team, he was in charge of recording.

00:41:51.620 | So he has the records of like, you know, when our team would go to China, it would be recorded

00:41:57.060 | 15, seven leading praise and seven singing, you know, and so he remembers all of that.

00:42:03.740 | Yeah.

00:42:04.740 | Yeah.

00:42:05.740 | He was our record keeper.

00:42:06.740 | Yeah.

00:42:07.740 | Elder Phil, you've been awfully quiet.

00:42:11.260 | When you come into the picture in all of this, I mean, you're the pastor's brother, at what

00:42:14.540 | point do you come into the picture?

00:42:16.900 | I started coming probably a year after the church started.

00:42:21.940 | So I got married in 1997, so the church started, I guess, April.

00:42:28.140 | My brother is part of the church in August.

00:42:31.780 | I think a year later, I got married in July and a year later we joined because I was also

00:42:37.180 | with him when he left Irvine Baptist, attended church together and then we for a period went

00:42:44.620 | to, I think, Sergius Presbyterian Church or something, yeah, see?

00:42:48.900 | And then got married, I don't know, took a year away and then, yeah, there was a point

00:42:58.220 | where I'm going to, you know, go to church, you know, with my family, just me and Mary.

00:43:04.420 | So we went through a process of discussion and prayer and we decided to go to my brother's

00:43:12.900 | church and it was a very young church, yeah, okay, it was a very young church, but for

00:43:21.020 | me it was easy, you know, because it's my brother, you know, even when he was pastoring

00:43:27.060 | as a youth pastor at Irvine Baptist, I would come on college, you know, when I was in college

00:43:32.020 | come and help.

00:43:33.020 | So I knew everybody, I know it was a little bit harder for Marian, but it took a little

00:43:38.240 | bit more time for her, but like anything else, yeah, so, I mean, timing-wise, you know, that's

00:43:45.780 | when I came and I never questioned coming to the church and being part of it, even though

00:43:52.500 | the church was small, but it was home for me, I always felt like it was home.

00:43:58.460 | Well, you know, you're watching all these events unfold, I mean, you're here just a

00:44:02.420 | year after Pastor Peter gets here, what are your thoughts as you're, you know, you're

00:44:07.500 | seeing your brother go through all this and, because you lived in Corona, you still do,

00:44:13.340 | and so you guys both live in the same city, you know, Pastor Peter mentioned he had to

00:44:16.420 | sell his home, you know, what were your thoughts seeing all this and, you know, having to support

00:44:20.820 | your brother?

00:44:21.820 | Yeah, so my brother coming to Corona, like always, he wants to follow what I'm doing,

00:44:27.900 | just kidding about that, but, no, part of it I really didn't know, you know, part of

00:44:34.860 | the, he didn't share a lot of, so I learned, you know, some of this stuff by just after

00:44:40.420 | the fact, but at the same time, I just, I got married, I just had a kid, in 2001, Jonathan,

00:44:52.260 | I just got a new job, so I was pretty engrossed in my own career at the time, but I knew what,

00:45:00.100 | you know, the difficulty of the traveling, and then I, you know, we visited as a family

00:45:08.380 | to what was happening over there, so there was a level of excitement, and because, oh,

00:45:13.900 | there's this new thing going on, but I also saw the weight of the problem, not the problem,

00:45:21.060 | but obviously the difficulty, because we're at a small church, so one aspect is, I definitely

00:45:29.380 | saw God's hand in when my brother, Pastor Peter, sold his house, and made the decision

00:45:37.620 | to move to Irvine, and that was, coincidental or not, I mean, that was the moment, I think,

00:45:46.220 | when the church grew, and from my perspective, I thought it was appropriate, because before

00:45:56.260 | that time, even though we only had like 30, 35 people coming to church, our Bible study

00:46:03.540 | attendance, pretty consistent, were 30, so we basically had most of our church attend

00:46:08.900 | church, also attend Bible study, and then all the people, even though they were young,

00:46:14.740 | they were very hungry, so I think it was when Pastor Peter came to Irvine, I think it was

00:46:24.060 | just that moment that God used at the perfect timing, I guess, that just launched the growth,

00:46:32.620 | but before then, I think all the precursor of church growth was set, just the consistent

00:46:39.980 | Bible study, consistent teaching, it's just that, I guess, I see God's hand in all this,

00:46:47.140 | so I guess God had to orchestrate all this.

00:46:50.780 | He was kind of laying the foundation for the explosive growth.

00:46:54.140 | Right, I think the foundation was there, and I think just everything just came together

00:46:59.040 | when my brother moved down to Irvine, and made the commitment that he did, and that's

00:47:03.660 | when, I mean, literally, it was, he moves down, and you could just see the, start seeing

00:47:09.460 | the growth.

00:47:10.460 | Yeah, you know, Pastor Peter, you kind of mentioned, you alluded to the 2003 retreat

00:47:18.380 | with Pastor Ray Causley that was in Palm Desert, not Palm Springs, and we showed that photo,

00:47:24.900 | we showed that photo to new members, but at the time, I want to say with kids, there's

00:47:33.740 | about 30 of us.

00:47:34.740 | Yeah, with kids.

00:47:35.740 | With kids.

00:47:36.740 | That's with the Pastor's family.

00:47:37.740 | Right.

00:47:38.740 | Pastor Ray's, and he had three kids at that time, four kids, he had, oh, he had three

00:47:43.460 | kids, and I think I had three.

00:47:46.380 | Yeah, three.

00:47:48.260 | Yeah, and what's interesting is, I know for, I think someone has articulated, that was

00:47:56.780 | kind of like a turning point, would you say, Pastor Peter, like that, after that retreat,

00:48:01.260 | or?

00:48:02.260 | I want to say it was the retreat, because that was already happening in February, so

00:48:06.220 | by the time we got to the retreat, it was already complete, like, change of, you know,

00:48:11.460 | the old, people were grumbling left, and then new people came in, and so we had a group

00:48:16.660 | that was really hungry, and then so, that was our very, we've never had any retreat

00:48:21.460 | before that.

00:48:22.460 | That was the first retreat, and then so, I think what that retreat did was kind of like

00:48:26.780 | solidify, you know, what we were doing, it kind of, because it was the first time when,

00:48:32.060 | you know, like, we actually got together, outside of our house, we never been anywhere,

00:48:36.780 | did anything, hardly any activity, we had Friday Bible study, and then Sunday worship,

00:48:41.340 | and that was it.

00:48:42.340 | Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's kind of like wild.

00:48:45.380 | When I think about, I am older than you were when I first met you, you know, and to me,

00:48:52.260 | you've kind of like, you know, you've always been my pastor, so there's a sense in which

00:48:57.500 | you've always been 50, but obviously, that's not true, obviously, you know, but I remember

00:49:04.180 | that retreat, because I've been, at that time, I think I've been at the church somewhere

00:49:07.900 | less than a year, somewhere less than a year.

00:49:10.500 | I remember coming to Berean, you know, Pastor Mark brought me to Berean, and I remember

00:49:16.260 | thinking I'll never come to Berean, I was going to Calvary Chapel at the time, and then

00:49:20.020 | I just knew I had to leave Calvary Chapel, because the church was too big, I wasn't getting

00:49:24.300 | any fellowship, and I was getting all my fellowship at Campus Ministry, which is extremely unhealthy,

00:49:31.020 | and so Pastor Mark brings me to Berean Community Church, and I remember hearing you preach

00:49:36.900 | Sunday and Friday, but Friday was actually the first time, Friday was also the first

00:49:41.700 | time, because I remember thinking, "Oh, he's teaching the Bible."

00:49:46.340 | I remember that was like kind of, and there was like this burning sensation in my heart,

00:49:50.580 | and I remember everyone else felt the same, and everyone that was there had the same burning

00:49:57.820 | desire, but I had to, I had to talk to you to make sure that you were actually who you

00:50:02.980 | say you are, I don't know why, I don't know who I think I am, but that's what college

00:50:08.140 | students think, right?

00:50:09.140 | So I had to, I remember asking you questions, it was my version of testing you, and that

00:50:16.860 | obviously didn't last long, and this became my church, but it was, I came in 2002, 2003,

00:50:24.860 | five, six years after the launch, but when I come in, again, we're still 30 people with

00:50:32.100 | everybody, including little kids, everybody, so from 1997 to 2002, 2003, well 2003 for

00:50:39.300 | sure, we're about like 20, 30 people, but to us, it was enough, it was absolutely enough,

00:50:51.460 | and I remember you just ingraining in us, "Study the Bible, do what it says, and don't

00:51:00.700 | turn from it to the left or the right."

00:51:03.020 | That was kind of like, if we had a mantra, that would have been it, I mean, our name

00:51:07.420 | is "Bring Community Church," right?

00:51:10.540 | So after that retreat, after that retreat, we have someone else in this room that comes

00:51:18.220 | into the picture at some point, oh, that's actually Pastor Peter Chung.

00:51:22.620 | So Pastor Chung, when did you come into this picture?

00:51:25.460 | Well, so that retreat conflicted with, I was a high school pastor at the time of a group

00:51:33.100 | of about 100, and at that point, I had been meeting with Pastor Peter for about five months.

00:51:39.600 | I was actually pretty close to trying to figure out how to leave my retreat that I was supposed

00:51:44.580 | to run to go to this retreat, so I was super jealous, but that was my third year in ministry,

00:51:53.980 | and I had no idea what I was doing, and that the counsel that I sought from the pastors

00:51:59.140 | at the church that I was working at, they would all tell me things that really weren't

00:52:05.380 | that helpful, and so I was on my way out, and a friend introduced me to Pastor Peter,

00:52:13.140 | and I actually just logged on to the website, listened to three sermons, two of them were

00:52:20.240 | out of Numbers chapter 11, and I was just listening to the content, and I was like,

00:52:25.340 | I've never heard someone preach out of like the censuses before, and just, I was almost

00:52:31.820 | taking notes verbatim, and I was thinking, you know, I really want a man like this to

00:52:37.140 | give me some kind of guidance, because I'm on my way out, I want to learn how to leave

00:52:41.440 | a church well, and try to figure out like the next steps in my life.

00:52:47.620 | So we started meeting, I asked him out for lunch, it was March 31st, 2003, and we met

00:52:53.880 | at Tyco in Irvine, and then at that meeting, I was like, you know, this is who I am, this

00:53:00.020 | is what I need, and I asked him, can you just mentor, disciple me, because I really am desperate,

00:53:09.440 | and so we actually started meeting every Wednesday.

00:53:12.360 | So every Wednesday morning, I would actually come, there was a coffee bean on Alton and

00:53:16.280 | Jeffrey, so I would be there from like 7.30 to about lunch, and then Pastor Peter and

00:53:21.200 | I would meet at Tyco, grab lunch, and then I would go back to the coffee bean, study

00:53:25.720 | for about 5 more hours, preparing the Bible study, and I would go the Wednesday night,

00:53:30.960 | and the Wednesday night was really small at the time, I was actually the youngest person

00:53:34.480 | there for a few months, the next youngest was Elder Joe, and it was like 11 people,

00:53:38.680 | so Friday nights were the college where the bulk of the people were meeting, but Wednesdays

00:53:42.920 | were like, I guess the adults, older people at the church, and like I said, I was just

00:53:48.720 | really hungry, taking everything in, but I was kind of at a dilemma, because I didn't,

00:53:55.880 | I wanted to leave my church, but similarly to Pastor Peter's experience, I couldn't just

00:54:01.400 | leave the students, so I actually ended up being there 2 more years, and I didn't come

00:54:07.040 | to Berean officially until about 2005, but for about 2 years, I was actively trying to

00:54:13.600 | be at everything I possibly could, I got into a little bit of trouble at my church, we had

00:54:17.920 | a big garage sale for the missions fund, but then I gave all the mission fund to our China

00:54:22.480 | team for Berean, New Year's Eve service, as the high school pastor, I was supposed to

00:54:28.000 | be at our church, but then I ended up coming to Berean because I wanted to play some, the

00:54:33.360 | youth with the Bereans, and so yeah, I didn't handle it particularly wisely, but my heart

00:54:42.000 | was at Berean starting March of 2003, and I would consider Berean my church, even though

00:54:50.200 | I was on staff at a different church for a couple years, but that's how it all started.

00:54:55.360 | That's interesting, because you mentioned that there was a Bible study on Wednesday,

00:54:59.080 | so Pastor Peter, I'm actually learning this for the first time, you know, and I've been

00:55:04.240 | here since 2003, you were doing 2 Bible studies, one on Wednesday and one on Friday?

00:55:10.000 | So the Bible study he's talking about just started, because that's when the church was

00:55:13.880 | starting to grow, and we couldn't fit them all on Friday, so we took anybody out of college,

00:55:19.760 | which was at that time, I think like 7 maybe, 7 or 8 started meeting at my house on Wednesday,

00:55:25.720 | so.

00:55:26.720 | I actually do remember that.

00:55:27.880 | It came in like, I think, like a month after we started Wednesday, something like that.

00:55:31.280 | Yeah, the study was 1 John, and then my first Wednesday there was like 1 John 2:15, "Do

00:55:36.240 | not love the world or anything in the world," so I was just really excited just to be there

00:55:41.240 | and learn.

00:55:42.240 | Yeah, you know, what's interesting is, I do remember that now, now that we're articulating

00:55:47.520 | it, what's also interesting is, as I'm thinking back on when I first came, that makes sense

00:55:52.000 | because I don't remember seeing you, Elder Joe, on Friday.

00:55:54.200 | Yeah.

00:55:55.200 | So, I'm like, I'm thinking like, "Oh, where were you?

00:55:57.060 | Oh, you were on Wednesday."

00:55:58.060 | Or Philip, or Marian.

00:55:59.060 | Yeah, now that I'm thinking about that, it makes sense, and I actually do remember this

00:56:03.360 | Wednesday Bible study, like, talking about in passing, I'm just in college, so I don't

00:56:07.240 | care.

00:56:08.240 | I'm just, I'm just surfing.

00:56:10.000 | I'm surfing, and I'm listening to this guy teach me about the Bible, and all I remember

00:56:13.800 | is that it was pretty cool.

00:56:15.440 | You know, I have this distinctive memory about you, Pastor Peter Chung.

00:56:20.000 | I know you remember it, too, because you remember everything, but you would refer to Berean as

00:56:25.720 | Canaan.

00:56:26.720 | Do you remember that?

00:56:27.720 | I do.

00:56:28.720 | Can you tell us a little bit about why, I mean, I think people can kind of get the idea,

00:56:33.580 | but tell us about it.

00:56:35.000 | One thing was, I was really hungry, so that was actually when I was spending about six

00:56:39.640 | to eight hours a day at Coffee Bean, just in the Bible, memorizing it, studying it,

00:56:44.720 | preparing sermons, and I think, just, I mean, this is not on the church that I was at, but,

00:56:52.840 | you know, they were trying to push for things like, you know, let's just do this 40 days

00:56:56.200 | of purpose.

00:56:57.200 | That was when the purpose-driven life was big.

00:56:59.080 | Let's do this 40 days of purpose as a whole church, and I said, no, like, I'm teaching

00:57:02.680 | through First Peter.

00:57:03.680 | I don't want to do 40 days of, like, a study of a book, and little things like that, where

00:57:09.520 | it was a little bit more studies about the Bible, rather than studies through the Bible,

00:57:17.800 | and you know, on the Wednesday night Bible studies, I would come, and the, you know,

00:57:21.960 | eight or nine other people that were there, they were so eager and hungry to not talk

00:57:26.160 | about culture, not talk about, like, churchianity, but to just get into the text, and so I started

00:57:34.040 | seeing change in my ministry.

00:57:37.840 | My group actually went from 100 to, like, 30 kids on Friday nights, because I stopped

00:57:41.920 | doing the programs and stuff, and I was like, okay, I'm doing something wrong, I'm about

00:57:45.720 | to get in trouble, but the ones that are there, like the 30 or so that are there, they're

00:57:49.720 | actually enjoying, like, actually just studying the Bible, and so, for me, the philosophies

00:57:55.480 | of ministry kind of were starting to conflict.

00:57:59.280 | I wanted to do the, you know, read the Bible, study the Bible, and do what it says, but

00:58:04.840 | then the church as a whole, which is very typical of churches at the time, were just,

00:58:10.120 | you know, like, take care of the people, make sure they don't leave the church, and so with

00:58:14.680 | that, there was a lot of tension in my heart, but I couldn't just leave the 30 that were

00:58:20.240 | there, so I felt like I was kind of leading the group of, I mean, on Sunday, there were

00:58:24.960 | like 100 to 120 kids there for attendance, but the ones that I was actually discipling,

00:58:31.820 | I couldn't just abandon them, and so, yeah, so I was stuck there in many senses, the word,

00:58:39.480 | where I couldn't leave, and so I had to put in my time for an extra two years, but I wanted

00:58:46.240 | to be at Berean so badly, but that's, so I considered that like a wilderness trials for

00:58:52.320 | me.

00:58:53.320 | - And you know, you weren't coming to Berean as a pastor.

00:58:56.000 | - No.

00:58:57.000 | - You were just coming to Berean.

00:58:58.160 | - Right.

00:58:59.160 | - Period.

00:59:00.160 | It wasn't like Pastor Peter offered you some kind of position, you were just coming to,

00:59:04.120 | just to come.

00:59:05.120 | - Right.

00:59:06.120 | - Yeah.

00:59:07.120 | You know, what's interesting, from your perspective, Pastor Peter, you know, there's this guy that

00:59:11.480 | you meet, he's hungry to grow, he's starving to meet with you, but he doesn't go to our

00:59:18.800 | church.

00:59:19.800 | What was kind of going through your head at the time?

00:59:20.800 | - Can I say?

00:59:21.800 | So, he was actually, I actually met with him because of the girl that he was dating at

00:59:32.440 | that time, and she asked me, my boyfriend is burnt out, he's a youth pastor, you know,

00:59:39.800 | can you at least talk to him?

00:59:41.100 | So she was pretty new to the church too, so I didn't really know her well, and I have

00:59:45.560 | a heart for young pastors, you know, just because you're going through the same thing

00:59:50.800 | and being burnt out, and so it was just to really have lunch with him.

00:59:55.480 | It wasn't to like, we're going to keep meeting up, and then, you know, but it was right at

01:00:00.520 | that time when I prayed about selling the house, and then I, now for the first time

01:00:04.880 | I'm not working, so I'm praying, like I got all this time going back and forth to Vegas

01:00:09.960 | for like, you know, 10 months, then I got all that freed up, and then, so I was praying

01:00:15.400 | like what, what should I do with my, where do I invest my time, so I was praying that

01:00:18.880 | every day, like now I have this time, you free me up, what am I going to do?

01:00:23.200 | And then that's when like he, you know, I met him, then right after I met him, literally

01:00:28.720 | I had one lunch with him, and the next email I get is, can you mentor me?

01:00:33.240 | Like he doesn't know me, I don't know him, you know, but because I prayed that prayer,

01:00:39.360 | if I wasn't in that situation I probably would have said no, because I don't know him, you

01:00:43.600 | know, and then, but because I prayed that, and then he shows up, it's like, oh, maybe

01:00:48.920 | this is God, you know, like answering my prayer, and so I couldn't say no, because I felt like

01:00:54.760 | God put him in that position, and then, you know, like I said, oh, I got all these church

01:00:59.040 | people that I need to pay attention to, but he just happened to, and then he happened

01:01:02.640 | to be a pastor, so I thought maybe if I can meet with him, and it was, he wasn't thinking

01:01:07.600 | like, oh, he's going to eventually come to our church, that he can influence his kids

01:01:11.840 | that he's ministering to.

01:01:14.000 | That's what led to that.

01:01:15.000 | But I remember the very first impression when I met him was like, that guy's huge, and he's

01:01:20.480 | thick.

01:01:21.480 | Yeah.

01:01:22.480 | That was my first impression, yeah.

01:01:25.000 | Second impression is like, he's hungry, yeah, he's really hungry, like why?

01:01:29.920 | You know, like typically, if I meet somebody I don't know, there's always this kind of

01:01:33.160 | like, oh, who are you?

01:01:34.160 | You know, what do you know?

01:01:35.720 | Should I respect you, honor you, like, you know, there's usually that period, but I could

01:01:40.440 | tell that he was, he's already hit kind of bottom, meaning like, he goes, I don't know

01:01:44.760 | where to go, what do I do, can you help me?

01:01:48.200 | So he came in, like from the get-go he was like that.

01:01:51.380 | So that's why I thought, okay, if I can kind of get him on the right track, because at

01:01:54.680 | that time he was talking about going into law, he was going to drop out and maybe go

01:01:58.920 | back into law.

01:01:59.920 | I mean I could tell he was, you know, he had the brain, even from our first meeting.

01:02:04.400 | But it really didn't take much.

01:02:06.560 | It was just kind of like, do your quiet time, read the Bible, and then I remember the first

01:02:11.360 | impression after meeting with him maybe about two, three months, because I would quote scripture

01:02:15.720 | to him and at the end of the conversation he would quote it back to me.

01:02:20.020 | So in the first few months I was thinking, oh, this guy, you know, he memorized a lot

01:02:24.080 | of scripture.

01:02:25.080 | And I realized he was just hearing what I said and spinning it back to me.

01:02:29.760 | You know, after a while I was like, this guy, this guy's memory is like incredible.

01:02:34.120 | And so, you know, I mentioned this up in the pulpit before, but, you know, once he gets

01:02:38.280 | into something, he gets really into it.

01:02:39.860 | And so I didn't realize he was starting to memorize scripture already at that time.

01:02:44.400 | As soon as he got excited, he poured that energy into just memorizing scripture.

01:02:48.440 | And I think a lot of it was just pointing him to the right direction and then he just

01:02:53.400 | kind of ran with it.

01:02:55.480 | Yeah.

01:02:56.480 | Yeah.

01:02:57.480 | Yeah.

01:02:58.480 | I mean, for those that don't know, that's Pastor Peter Chung's thing.

01:03:03.040 | He just memorizes a ton of scripture, you know, and well, that, and he'll tell you what

01:03:07.920 | you were doing on January 10th, 2007 at 4.55 PM.

01:03:12.420 | That's another thing he does.

01:03:13.420 | And what you were wearing.

01:03:15.360 | And what you were wearing.

01:03:17.440 | So PPC, when you, Pastor Peter Chung, when you come to Berean without any other obligations,

01:03:25.120 | what year was that?

01:03:26.520 | That was July 2005.

01:03:27.520 | What time?

01:03:28.520 | Well, it's the first Sunday, I remember like writing my first tithe check the night before.

01:03:35.680 | One of the students actually, well, a bunch of the students came with me, but I remember

01:03:39.560 | like he was laughing at me because I was like giggling as I was writing my tithe check the

01:03:43.640 | night before.

01:03:44.640 | And I knew that I wasn't coming to be a, I'm not going to be a pastor at the church.

01:03:49.440 | So I actually sat in BCC, which is the membership class at the time.

01:03:54.160 | And you know, Pastor Peter said, just be a member, just be a brother at the church.

01:03:57.720 | And at that point, when I first started coming to the church, it was 30, but that first Sunday

01:04:02.600 | it was about 110.

01:04:03.600 | It was at Northwood Park.

01:04:07.360 | And I think it was interesting because my first four Sundays at the church, we had four

01:04:11.680 | different speakers, which is very abnormal.

01:04:13.720 | And so it was, you know, Pastor Peter spoke, and then Pastor Aaron spoke, and then Elder

01:04:18.320 | Joe spoke, and then Elder Phillip spoke all, you know, and so I was like, oh, this is kind

01:04:23.240 | of cool.

01:04:24.240 | I get to, because everyone else went to China.

01:04:27.280 | And so, and then I ended up moving in with a bunch of Berean dudes shortly after with,

01:04:31.960 | you know, you Elder James, Pastor Mark, Pastor Aaron Choi, another Berean brother, who's

01:04:37.320 | now at BMC.

01:04:38.840 | But it was like the family that I was like longing to be a part of.

01:04:42.560 | And so it was a lot of fun.

01:04:44.880 | And so then starting 2006, I actually got to be an intern at the church, because all

01:04:51.920 | of a sudden, like two families with like three or four kids joined the church, and then they

01:04:56.320 | needed people to help.

01:04:58.320 | And so I just, I was the right person at the right time in that sense and got interned.

01:05:03.880 | Well, let me clarify that.

01:05:06.760 | So he's the education pastor now, but the way like for the first seven years of the

01:05:12.120 | church, we didn't have Sunday school, because it was mainly our kids and Phillip's, you

01:05:18.160 | know, at that time, and then my older brother, so it was just our family.

01:05:21.840 | So we felt kind of bad asking anybody to like just watch our kids while we go into worship.

01:05:26.560 | So Esther basically couldn't enter worship.

01:05:29.320 | So she would always, you know, stroll the kids outside the sanctuary, just kind of leaning

01:05:34.320 | in.

01:05:35.320 | And then at that particular Sunday, two families that close to my age came with kids, our kids'

01:05:40.920 | age.

01:05:41.920 | And then Pastor Peter Chang at that time was not staff, he was just a member of the church.

01:05:46.040 | And he asked me, "Do you mind if I start something with the kids?"

01:05:50.040 | I said, "Oh, not at all."

01:05:52.360 | You know?

01:05:53.360 | And so he just volunteered.

01:05:55.080 | He wasn't a staff at the time, he just volunteered to take care of the kids.

01:05:58.360 | So that was the beginning of our Sunday school.

01:06:00.240 | And it just happened because those two families came on the same Sunday.

01:06:05.580 | And then so all of a sudden we had like three kids to like seven kids.

01:06:09.800 | And that's how it started.

01:06:10.800 | But that's how our first service, we had one service at that time, we started the morning

01:06:16.360 | one because of that, because we wanted to have a service for the teachers.

01:06:21.560 | So there was like six of them.

01:06:23.240 | - And the lunch crew.

01:06:24.240 | - And the lunch crew.

01:06:25.240 | So they would come into first service, we'd have like 10 to 15, and then we would have

01:06:29.320 | our main service set.

01:06:30.320 | And that was the beginning of our first service.

01:06:33.260 | But you know, just ironically, he's the guy who started it, and now he's our education

01:06:38.320 | pastor.

01:06:39.320 | - Yeah, there was nothing formal.

01:06:41.840 | There was a need, and someone took initiative, kind of plugged in that need.

01:06:49.160 | Not a lot of people to talk to, right, because I mean, it's just us.

01:06:55.940 | So it's like, oh, there's a need, someone can plug it, kind of worked like that.

01:07:00.120 | You know, we talked about Pastor Aaron, there's gonna be a lot of people listening who don't

01:07:03.560 | know who he is.

01:07:05.560 | Pastor Aaron is a pastor over at BMC in NorCal, Berean Mission Church in NorCal.

01:07:11.720 | But before becoming the pastor in Berean Mission Church in Northern California, he was here.

01:07:16.440 | He was here at Berean Community Church.

01:07:17.920 | For the long time, you were a pastor by yourself.

01:07:22.520 | What year does Pastor Aaron come in?

01:07:24.320 | - Well, Pastor Aaron was here, he was, again, one of those high school students at Irvine

01:07:29.560 | Baptist, so I actually knew his parents before I knew him.

01:07:32.360 | I heard of him through his Sunday school teachers, because he was such a troublemaker, you know,

01:07:37.480 | and I heard, there's this kid in Sunday school, this is like when he's like third or fourth

01:07:40.680 | grade, and he said he jumped on the table during Bible study, but the teacher loved

01:07:46.560 | him, you know, because they adored him, but he was a handful, and he would tell stories

01:07:51.160 | about his parents.

01:07:52.160 | And I remember my first memory of that age group, because I wasn't their pastor, I was

01:07:57.120 | just the EM pastor, and Sunday mornings I would be driving to church and I would see

01:08:01.080 | him and Luke and, you know, his friends walking to the pizza parlor during service, you know,

01:08:07.320 | and then they would be walking back.

01:08:08.520 | So later on I found out that they were using their offering to buy pizza, and then playing

01:08:13.080 | video games.

01:08:14.080 | And I remember every time I would drive up, I would say, "Where are the parents?

01:08:17.920 | Why are these kids walking in the big street by themselves?"

01:08:21.000 | And then, so I kind of heard of him, and then I left, you know, that one year that I left,

01:08:28.100 | when I came back, and I was talking to the high school pastor, and he said that there's

01:08:34.880 | a student leader that's actually leading Bible study, and he was the only one.

01:08:39.360 | And then he said it was Aaron Choi.

01:08:40.360 | I said, "Aaron Choi?

01:08:41.360 | That name's familiar."

01:08:42.360 | He said, "But the last time I heard of him was the kid who was jumping on tables."

01:08:46.980 | And then when he told me that Aaron was actually a student leader, even in high school, I said,

01:08:51.400 | "That kid is a student leader?"

01:08:53.400 | Yeah, so he had leadership from, you know, from when he was young.

01:08:57.780 | And he had a big influence on his friends, even through college.

01:09:03.080 | Yeah.

01:09:04.080 | Yeah, so.

01:09:05.080 | He went to UCSD.

01:09:06.080 | He was the ADM.

01:09:07.080 | He ended up coming back as the advisor as well.

01:09:11.600 | Right.

01:09:12.600 | You know, a lot of people here, we roomed together.

01:09:15.560 | Pastor Peter Chung mentioned it, but Pastor Mark, myself, Pastor Peter Chung, and Aaron

01:09:19.400 | lived together for a little bit.

01:09:21.520 | What year does he come on board as a pastor?

01:09:24.000 | I don't know the specific year, but it was.

01:09:27.100 | He started interning in '03, yeah, at the end of '03.

01:09:30.300 | So he was in college, and then he graduated, and then he was kind of wrestling with what

01:09:35.700 | he, and so when he went to seminary, he went in as a philosophy, because he wanted to do

01:09:40.980 | apologetics because that was his thing.

01:09:43.340 | And then he changed that, obviously, I think the first year.

01:09:46.360 | And so, you know, I think everybody who knew him were kind of like encouraging him to go

01:09:51.940 | into ministry, because he had gifting, he had clear influence among his friends.

01:09:57.460 | And then so, when he came on, obviously, I needed help.

01:10:01.820 | So when he came on as an intern, I think it was like six months into it, we asked him

01:10:06.460 | to oversee the college ministry.

01:10:08.300 | So I guess that was '03, yeah.

01:10:10.780 | Yeah, so for about six years, you're doing multiple Bible studies, Sunday service, all

01:10:16.580 | the admin stuff on your own, and then, you know, finally, you get some help, you know,

01:10:20.020 | get some help in.

01:10:21.020 | I mean, to be fair, we had elders, you know, Philip was there, Vince was there, maybe a

01:10:27.300 | year or two before that.

01:10:28.860 | And Joe was there.

01:10:29.860 | And Joe was there.

01:10:30.860 | But again, you know, this early on in church, and they have full-time jobs.

01:10:36.180 | So they were helping with finance, and bits and pieces.

01:10:38.820 | Right, right.

01:10:39.820 | And the whole church is being helpful.

01:10:41.220 | I'm just talking about pastoral help.

01:10:42.620 | Yeah, yeah.

01:10:43.620 | Just pastoral help, it's just you, and then Pastor Aaron comes in.

01:10:47.300 | Right.

01:10:48.300 | So that was him and I, I don't know, five years, six years?

01:10:52.620 | Yeah.

01:10:53.620 | Yeah.

01:10:54.620 | Yeah, and then that goes on for about five, six years.

01:10:57.180 | And then at some point, Pastor Mark, you re-entered this conversation.

01:11:00.500 | You went from member to, I think you're a pastor at this church, right?

01:11:04.580 | No, I'm just kidding.

01:11:05.740 | You come in as a pastor.

01:11:07.220 | What year was that around?

01:11:09.780 | My memory is not good, but I'm guessing around 2010.

01:11:13.940 | Is that right?

01:11:14.940 | I'm looking at you.

01:11:15.940 | Well, I went to China in '09, and then I think the church took on, from what I believe,

01:11:23.180 | like three interns at the time, and Pastor Mark was one of the interns that came in right

01:11:29.460 | around then.

01:11:30.460 | And I don't think it was necessarily as a staff, but it had been concurrent to like

01:11:33.940 | our departure.

01:11:34.940 | Yeah.

01:11:35.940 | It was 2010.

01:11:36.940 | I think.

01:11:37.940 | Yeah.

01:11:38.940 | It was 2010, and my memory's bad.

01:11:42.420 | At that point, has Pastor Aaron already gone to NorCal?

01:11:44.900 | No.

01:11:45.900 | Okay.

01:11:46.900 | Okay.

01:11:47.900 | That was about three years after that.

01:11:48.900 | Yeah.

01:11:49.900 | Okay.

01:11:50.900 | It's about 2013.

01:11:51.900 | Okay.

01:11:52.900 | That's right.

01:11:53.900 | 2013, Pastor Aaron goes to NorCal.

01:11:54.900 | The reason I'm bringing this in is because during this time, the church just continues

01:11:56.900 | to grow.

01:11:57.900 | It just continues to grow and grow and grow.

01:12:00.780 | Pastor Aaron goes to plant in Northern California.

01:12:04.100 | Berean Mission Church is born.

01:12:06.660 | And then Pastor Peter Chang is in China, and all of a sudden, we're back to two pastors.

01:12:12.740 | We're back to two pastors, and we functioned two pastors at that point in time.

01:12:20.020 | Do you remember how big the church was?

01:12:21.500 | Anyone remember?

01:12:22.500 | About 300.

01:12:23.500 | Right.

01:12:24.500 | My memory is 200, 300.

01:12:26.420 | We're around there.

01:12:27.420 | And the kind of real bird's eye view is during all these years, we went from Lakeside Middle

01:12:34.740 | School, and then we went to Harvard Park, which is on Walnut.

01:12:47.140 | And after Harvard, I think we went to Turtle Rock Community Church.

01:12:50.860 | And after Turtle Rock Community Church, we went to Northwood.

01:12:53.020 | Well, before Northwood, we were at Green, what, Deerfield.

01:12:56.740 | Oh, Deerfield.

01:12:57.740 | Oh, right.

01:12:58.740 | Deerfield for a short period.

01:12:59.740 | For a short period.

01:13:00.740 | Basically, community parks in Irvine.

01:13:01.740 | Yeah.

01:13:02.740 | Right.

01:13:03.740 | And then our brother, David Rim, spent the night to make it sure that we wouldn't reserve.

01:13:08.740 | Yeah.

01:13:09.740 | Yeah, yeah.

01:13:10.740 | And then we swam up to Deerfield.

01:13:11.740 | And Northwood.

01:13:12.740 | And then we went to Northwood.

01:13:13.740 | You know, and David Rim is sleeping on the ground to reserve.

01:13:19.100 | He initiated it, and then eventually, people took turns.

01:13:22.140 | Yeah, people took turns.

01:13:23.140 | Well, just to clarify, because we were renting a community center, they register, you have

01:13:29.180 | to re-register every year.

01:13:31.420 | And it's first come, first serve.

01:13:33.500 | So we have to be in line.

01:13:34.740 | So that's why, David, somebody had to sleep the night so we could be on the front line.

01:13:38.940 | And then, so, at peak, we were there probably three nights.

01:13:42.740 | So we would start, like, it's Friday morning, and then we would be there, like, Tuesday,

01:13:47.140 | Tuesday or Wednesday, and we have to be there 24 hours, because if we weren't number one

01:13:51.860 | in line, we wouldn't get the spot.

01:13:53.860 | Yeah, and Patrick, you're like a, like, you know, a 40, 42-year-old pastor, you're sleeping

01:13:58.900 | outside in Irvine.

01:13:59.900 | I mean, you were there, too.

01:14:00.900 | You would sleep outside.

01:14:01.900 | Yeah, I mean, at that time, we had a rotation, so whoever came in during that rotation, you

01:14:07.020 | would be there.

01:14:08.020 | So it had to be around the clock.

01:14:09.020 | So a lot of people were taking turns at that time.

01:14:11.500 | And just another input, the reason why we had to move from Lakeside to go to Community

01:14:16.300 | Park, because I think they raised our hourly rate by maybe 20 bucks an hour, and at that

01:14:22.860 | time, we couldn't even afford $20 more an hour for the church, so we had to go to somewhere

01:14:27.980 | cheaper, and that's why we ended up going to the Community Park.

01:14:31.060 | Yeah.

01:14:32.060 | Our rent was $400, $400 a month, and then it got raised to maybe like $600 or something

01:14:39.660 | like that.

01:14:40.660 | And that would have broke our back.

01:14:41.660 | Yeah, and we couldn't afford it, and that's why we ended up moving.

01:14:44.260 | Yeah, so while people are coming in and leaving and pastoral staff is going through changes

01:14:50.620 | at times, you know, everyone's kind of coming from within, you know.

01:14:55.620 | As this is going on, we're moving from park to park.

01:14:58.100 | There's no airway, there's no North Mitchell, South Mitchell, none of that is there at the

01:15:04.220 | time.

01:15:05.220 | So we, you know, go from the last park I mentioned was, what was the last park?

01:15:10.220 | Turtle Rock.

01:15:11.220 | Turtle Rock.

01:15:12.220 | So we went from Turtle Rock, and then we go to Ut.

01:15:14.740 | Northwood.

01:15:15.740 | Northwood.

01:15:16.740 | Northwood, I'm sorry.

01:15:17.740 | We go to Northwood.

01:15:18.740 | We're there for maybe a year?

01:15:19.740 | A year.

01:15:20.740 | A year.

01:15:21.740 | And then after Northwood, we go to Ut, and we go to Ut Middle School in Tustin.

01:15:24.860 | We're there for a couple years.

01:15:25.860 | Three years.

01:15:26.860 | We're there three years.

01:15:27.860 | Three years?

01:15:28.860 | Okay.

01:15:29.860 | Yeah, we're there for about three years, and at that time, the, you know, three, four years,

01:15:34.460 | the church is growing.

01:15:35.940 | The church is growing.

01:15:36.940 | So Ut was the last place we rented from since.

01:15:40.500 | Am I right?

01:15:41.500 | Ut was the last place we rented from since.

01:15:43.620 | When we left Ut, how many people were at our church, would you guys say?

01:15:46.660 | We had about 220, yeah, 220.

01:15:49.500 | About 220.

01:15:50.500 | 230, something like that.

01:15:52.500 | We're filling the auditorium at the time.

01:15:54.100 | Yeah.

01:15:55.420 | I remember thinking, how did our church get so big?

01:15:59.460 | I'm still surfing, so I mean, I don't really know what's going on.

01:16:02.020 | I'm just, you know, studying the Bible, you know, just, I'm not taking responsibility

01:16:05.700 | for anything, but the church is just growing.

01:16:08.340 | It's just growing.

01:16:09.340 | Again, we went from 30 to now 220 in a matter of just several years.

01:16:16.980 | What were your thoughts on this past few years, the church is kind of growing?

01:16:19.100 | Were you nervous?

01:16:20.100 | No, I remember when we first broke 100.

01:16:23.140 | I was like, that was when we first came to Ut Middle School.

01:16:26.060 | We went from 90 to 1, we added 20 people like one Sunday, and they said, oh, you know, people

01:16:31.340 | are coming because we moved, and then, you know, but we never went below 110.

01:16:35.860 | So literally one Sunday, we added 20% to the church, and for some odd reason, we never

01:16:43.520 | dipped below that, and then we started going up from there.

01:16:46.340 | So I remember at 100 thinking like, oh man, this is crazy, like how do you run a church

01:16:51.420 | of 100 people, you know, because they couldn't fit at my house anymore.

01:16:55.060 | So everything that we were doing had to change because we didn't have a location, so we ended

01:16:58.740 | up renting an office building because we needed somewhere to do Bible study because we couldn't

01:17:04.380 | meet at my house anymore.

01:17:06.020 | And then so at Ut, we just slowly incrementally grew to over 200, like 220, 230, and then

01:17:14.900 | we, you know, dealing with space and then slowly people started getting married and

01:17:18.940 | having kids, and so I remember our greatest challenge was when we hit 200 because the

01:17:24.820 | church just didn't feel the same anymore.

01:17:26.860 | The fellowship wasn't, people aren't hanging out at my house, you know, they're getting

01:17:32.020 | married, you can't, you know, before, our church was known as a loitering church.

01:17:36.820 | Once we got together, no one would ever leave.

01:17:39.340 | So on Sunday, we would have worship, we would go out to eat, and we'd be there till 6, 7

01:17:43.220 | o'clock at night.

01:17:44.220 | - And then have dinner together.

01:17:45.220 | - And then have dinner together, and then play basketball, and then the sisters would

01:17:49.380 | come and watch, and then hang out.

01:17:51.500 | Literally every time we got together, we'd say, "Hey, we gotta wake up tomorrow, we gotta

01:17:55.020 | go."

01:17:56.020 | We'd go to other people's church, and they would ask us to lock up when they were leaving

01:17:59.140 | because we wouldn't leave.

01:18:01.520 | So that's kind of how the culture of the church was, up to about 200.

01:18:05.860 | And then when 200 hit, like everything started changing because people got older, they started

01:18:10.180 | getting married, having kids, and then at 200 we couldn't hang out like that anymore.

01:18:14.460 | So prior to when Joe got married, like they didn't even invite the church, it was just

01:18:19.380 | given.

01:18:20.380 | Like somebody, a church is getting married, everybody was invited.

01:18:24.060 | That happened until Pastor Peter Chung's wedding.

01:18:26.660 | So like it was assumed anybody at church was going to come to the wedding.

01:18:30.720 | So he didn't invite, he didn't have to invite, so all these college students showed up, you

01:18:35.700 | know, and so that's kind of how it was assumed, and then it got to a certain point where we

01:18:39.340 | couldn't do that anymore.

01:18:40.340 | Yeah, but that's how the church was.

01:18:42.100 | I would say that the greatest challenge in the church was around 200 to 300.

01:18:47.780 | And that happened when we were at Airway.

01:18:52.540 | So to just kind of backtrack a little bit, we leave Ut, during this time, you alluded

01:18:59.780 | to it, but we get the office, the church office.

01:19:02.500 | We don't own it, we're renting it, and that was the coolest thing back then.

01:19:05.820 | "Oh, let's go to the church office, we have a place to go to."

01:19:09.020 | It was just some random office suite, we did our Bible studies there, and we just never

01:19:16.140 | thought that we would ever own a building, because we were kind of like the Israelites

01:19:20.580 | wandering the desert.

01:19:21.580 | There was a kind of sense of pride to that, and then I think part of it is, at least in

01:19:28.940 | my mind, I mean Pastor Peter teaches the Bible, how are we going to, just humanly speaking,

01:19:34.300 | how are we going to grow if Pastor Peter continues to tell us what God says?

01:19:38.180 | I mean, that's not very attractive, but that just kept coming.

01:19:42.540 | And for some strange reason, the church kept growing.

01:19:45.020 | It just kept growing, and then at some point, we were able to actually buy a building.

01:19:50.140 | And that's what you referred to as Airway.

01:19:52.740 | Airway was the first building that we had, and we actually, no more renting, we bought

01:19:58.740 | a building.

01:19:59.740 | Airway is a mile from, no, I'm sorry, a quarter, about a mile from where we are right now.

01:20:08.980 | It's just up the street.

01:20:10.740 | But I remember thinking our first Sunday at Berean Community Church at Airway, I had this

01:20:17.420 | very distinct memory where I'm looking at you, Pastor Peter.

01:20:22.020 | I see the sign, I see the sign, and I look at you, and I say to you, "This is Berean."

01:20:30.260 | You just kind of like do that smirk, you know, you just kind of smirk, and I'm like, "Yeah."

01:20:34.260 | And then, you know, we just do the same thing that we've always done.

01:20:38.860 | You know, you tell us what the Bible says, you preach it, and then we apply it in our

01:20:44.140 | lives, and we learn the Bible, we absorb the Bible in our own quiet times, we're exhorted

01:20:50.300 | to do that, and we just, that's been the same thing we've been doing since day one, and

01:20:56.940 | we just continue to grow.

01:20:59.060 | And I remember thinking when we're at that, at Airway, this is so great, and then we end

01:21:06.740 | up having to rent, because we grew, we end up having to rent the next door facility a

01:21:12.180 | little bit after that.

01:21:13.180 | And I remember thinking, well, we're never going to leave this place, but we ended up

01:21:17.900 | outgrowing that too.

01:21:20.260 | And then we ended up here where we are, on South Mitchell.

01:21:26.700 | South Mitchell is our first building, we bought that.

01:21:30.700 | I remember thinking, this is bizarre.

01:21:34.820 | How is this happening?

01:21:35.820 | How are we getting an even bigger building?

01:21:40.060 | More and more people are coming, but you're not changing your message.

01:21:43.900 | You're still preaching about sin, you're still telling us what the Bible says, and more and

01:21:47.860 | more people are coming.

01:21:50.180 | That trajectory hasn't really changed, well, it hasn't changed at all.

01:21:55.340 | And now, I asked the leaders to come in to do this podcast, because now we bought this

01:22:01.380 | other building.

01:22:02.900 | We just came into this other building.

01:22:05.060 | Our anniversary is coming up in a couple days, right?

01:22:07.900 | And so it's strange to see, but there's still one person who hasn't said anything yet.

01:22:16.460 | And that person is Pastor Nate.

01:22:19.020 | You came here about three years ago.

01:22:22.380 | You're actually the only pastor who wasn't bred.

01:22:25.780 | You're not a bred Berean.

01:22:26.780 | Homegrown.

01:22:27.780 | You're not homegrown.

01:22:28.780 | You actually came from the outside, and we were suspicious about you.

01:22:34.380 | Well, just me, no, I'm just kidding.

01:22:39.220 | You had a relationship with your friends, your current wife, Kezia, oh, sorry, your

01:22:43.360 | wife.

01:22:44.360 | I don't know why I said that.

01:22:45.360 | I don't know why I said that.

01:22:46.360 | I'm sorry.

01:22:47.360 | I'll just leave that on there.

01:22:48.360 | We're not going to edit that out.

01:22:51.860 | That's a blooper.

01:22:52.860 | Your wife, Kezia, yourself, my wife, Diane, you guys are all friends at UCSD.

01:22:56.820 | We actually had dinner before you even came to Berean Community Church.

01:23:00.460 | So when I heard you were coming to Berean Community Church, I was happy.

01:23:04.780 | I was really happy.

01:23:06.060 | But you've been here about three years.

01:23:08.940 | Three years is still a significant amount of time.

01:23:11.220 | Can you tell us about that?

01:23:12.580 | You come in.

01:23:13.580 | How did you come in?

01:23:14.580 | What changes?

01:23:15.580 | How has your experience been?

01:23:18.300 | Yeah.

01:23:19.300 | I mean, the church that I was at previously was the church that I grew up in.

01:23:25.780 | I was a kid there.

01:23:26.780 | I was a youth student there.

01:23:27.780 | I went to college, and I went back to that church.

01:23:33.660 | So with all of that, that's one of the things where nothing's going to replace that church

01:23:38.460 | for me.

01:23:39.460 | I love that church.

01:23:42.180 | That still feels like my family.

01:23:45.580 | There was a family church.

01:23:46.580 | It was an immigrant church.

01:23:47.580 | And so there were a lot of older generations there that saw me grow up.

01:23:52.920 | And so, yeah, that won't be replaced.

01:23:54.740 | So when Kezia and I, we were, well, I was approached by Pastor Mark one day.

01:24:00.500 | I thought we were just getting lunch, because I thought we were just friends.

01:24:04.820 | He wanted to kind of ask and poke around and see what I was thinking concerning just future

01:24:11.500 | and things like that.

01:24:13.180 | And so me and my forever wife, Kezia, I went back home to her and talked with her about

01:24:21.000 | like, "Hey, is this something we can think about and consider?"

01:24:24.660 | And one of the interesting things is, I mean, God had already been taking us through a lot

01:24:28.500 | of things, causing us to pray a lot about where we are and what we want to do and how

01:24:36.860 | to be faithful to Him.

01:24:39.700 | And we wanted to give it some time, but we instantly, it was weird, it was like an instant

01:24:45.420 | grieving period.

01:24:46.980 | Like almost like, even though it wasn't like even officially like extended to us, it felt

01:24:51.500 | like, "Whoa."

01:24:52.500 | Because I've been offered different job positions before, but this one felt very different.

01:24:59.180 | And so, anyway, long story short, I know this is getting a little long here, so.

01:25:03.620 | No, it's good.

01:25:04.620 | It's good, though.

01:25:05.620 | It's okay.

01:25:06.620 | Okay.

01:25:07.620 | Just to make it short, we decided to come, and right away, like, I started asking a lot

01:25:13.620 | of questions.

01:25:14.620 | I was trying to, I was poking around with a lot of people, trying to learn about the

01:25:18.460 | church.

01:25:19.460 | I was on Facebook a lot, stalking people.

01:25:22.640 | I found the, you know, the video of you commanding people about how to eat sushi and how to order.

01:25:30.060 | And then we got here, and I was wondering, "How has this church been functioning?"

01:25:34.340 | You know?

01:25:35.340 | Because, like, "Wow, there are only two pastors here."

01:25:38.700 | And we had five just on the EM, on my old church.

01:25:44.100 | And I saw a church where a large, a large portion, a majority of the church serving,

01:25:53.500 | being enthusiastic about Bible study, and those kinds of things were really cool to

01:25:58.060 | see.

01:25:59.060 | From, as an outsider at that time, like, and I hope that, like, all the Bereans listening

01:26:04.060 | to this, don't forget what an incredible blessing that is, you know, to be at a church that's

01:26:09.980 | like that.

01:26:10.980 | I think it's easy to forget.

01:26:11.980 | Man, that's encouraging.

01:26:15.460 | That's really, really encouraging.

01:26:17.020 | And Kazee and I instantly felt fortified, like, in our souls and our hearts when we

01:26:21.100 | got here.

01:26:22.340 | We felt the warmth.

01:26:24.700 | It didn't take very long to say, like, "This is our church."

01:26:28.620 | So that was pretty quick, you know?

01:26:32.020 | So yeah, I mean, the three years here, so, so blessed, so privileged.

01:26:37.740 | I think one of the things is to see the, like, when we talk about what like-mindedness is,

01:26:46.260 | there's the theology and the hermeneutic.

01:26:48.820 | There might be some gasps that go around, like, I come from a Presbyterian church, you

01:26:52.780 | know?

01:26:53.780 | But I'm in no way Presbyterian.

01:26:56.800 | And so, like, even that, just like the theology and the hermeneutic, it alleviated a lot of

01:27:01.060 | the pressure and the tension I felt at my previous church.

01:27:03.980 | I'm not afraid to say that, you know?

01:27:05.780 | Even if, like, somehow my previous church people listen to this, they know.

01:27:11.540 | But more so than that, the heart, a desire, like, when we say things like, you know, to

01:27:16.600 | have a high view of God and a high view of His Word, lots of people say that.

01:27:21.900 | But to feel it and to see it practiced, to see what it's like to have a leadership that

01:27:28.060 | is unified in that, that has the same heart, that desires the same things, that's been

01:27:35.300 | the best thing.

01:27:37.340 | I've learned so much from the pastors and the elders here.

01:27:41.300 | And so, like, in the three years, it's probably been, like, aside from, like, the early years

01:27:47.420 | as a Christian, like, the biggest growth on a personal level.

01:27:52.660 | And so, yeah, that's just kind of where we are.

01:27:55.820 | And I think Kazia and I are in the same place with that.

01:27:58.700 | - Yeah, you know, it's been, like, great having you, Pastor, just to see what you did with

01:28:03.700 | the college ministry, you know, just to see the college ministry thriving.

01:28:09.200 | And you know, now you're going on campus, you know, it's, you know, we know how late

01:28:14.140 | you, you know, hang out with them and then you wake up before the sun rises to come to

01:28:18.780 | these leaders meetings on Saturday.

01:28:21.460 | But you said something interesting, I just want to clarify for everyone that's listening.

01:28:26.100 | When you came, there were two pastors, right?

01:28:28.700 | But we just talked about Pastor Peter Chung being here from, being here full-fledged at

01:28:33.580 | least in 2005.

01:28:34.580 | Pastor Peter Chung, you go to China for a little bit and you end up working with Compassion

01:28:39.460 | International, which is a mission organization, which a lot of people sponsor children through

01:28:43.900 | that.

01:28:44.900 | You were with Compassion International for how many years?

01:28:46.980 | - It's actually a child sponsorship organization that's run like a missions agency, but for

01:28:52.180 | about six.

01:28:53.180 | - About six years.

01:28:54.180 | - A little over three years in China, six years in Korea, so it's about a decade.

01:29:00.740 | - And when you finally come back to, to Berean Community Church, you're not coming back because

01:29:05.120 | we've offered you like a pastoral position.

01:29:07.260 | You're coming back for different reasons, but you just want to come back to your home

01:29:10.060 | church.

01:29:11.060 | Is that, is that right?

01:29:12.060 | - No, no, we, at that time he wanted to come back and so we, yeah, no, no, no, no.

01:29:18.980 | So we did offer him at that time.

01:29:20.780 | Yeah.

01:29:21.780 | I mean, ultimately what it was is we had no plan to come back.

01:29:24.220 | We were going to be in Korea for the long haul, but just my father just asked us, like,

01:29:30.100 | can you come back?

01:29:31.800 | And it wasn't a hard decision for us to make.

01:29:34.740 | And so just to honor my father who was living by himself, we just decided we're going to

01:29:38.820 | go back.

01:29:40.340 | And for me, as soon as I made that decision, I was like, there's nowhere else I would want

01:29:46.400 | to go in terms of church.

01:29:47.940 | And so I gave Pastor Peter a phone call, just said, you know, I'm coming back.

01:29:51.700 | I don't really know to what capacity.

01:29:53.620 | And if you guys don't have the ability to like, to support me, that's fine.

01:29:58.940 | I can find another job and actually just come back and work.

01:30:01.840 | Or if need be, I can, there are other churches that have sent out feelers, which that's not

01:30:06.300 | going to be a problem.

01:30:07.300 | But the only place I wanted to come back to was Bahrain.

01:30:10.660 | And so, and you know, every, every time we'd come back from Asia, this was home.

01:30:15.540 | And so, yeah, and so you, you know, we have Pastor Peter, Pastor Mark, Pastor Nate comes

01:30:23.660 | on board.

01:30:24.820 | But as soon as Pastor Nate gets integrated, I mean, there's enough work to go around.

01:30:28.740 | I mean, we're, we were hemorrhaging at two pastors, we're hemorrhaging less at three

01:30:33.700 | pastors.

01:30:34.700 | You come in, what year is that?

01:30:35.980 | This is March 2018.

01:30:38.100 | Officially, I started April, the April, like just a week later.

01:30:43.220 | Yeah, and so it, it's interesting because, you know, we're all back here today.

01:30:50.020 | And you know, we, we kind of, you kind of went your separate ways, but you ultimately

01:30:53.540 | came back.

01:30:54.540 | You know, it's, it's, it's like God had this plan for you, you know, and then you came

01:30:59.340 | back here and then now you're here pastoring.

01:31:02.700 | And you know, as everyone knows, you had a cancer scare.

01:31:06.140 | You had a, you had a huge cancer scare.

01:31:08.860 | I remember thinking just, I can say this now, but I remember thinking, is he going to pass

01:31:13.380 | away?

01:31:14.380 | I'm so mad at him because he's going to pass away.

01:31:16.180 | I remember having this thought that I was mad at you, you know, even though it's obviously

01:31:19.980 | not, it's outside of your control, you know, but praise God, you know, that has gone well.

01:31:26.460 | That is, that has gone extremely well.

01:31:29.520 | So you come back March 2018, the church has continued to grow.

01:31:35.740 | You know, we've, we've had shuffling around of, of, of, of different affinity groups when

01:31:41.440 | we had to.

01:31:44.540 | But one thing that I can say, I'm speaking for everyone here is nothing has changed.

01:31:51.240 | Nothing has changed.

01:31:52.340 | It's study the Bible, do what it says.

01:31:56.580 | That's I'm quoting Pastor Peter, study the Bible, do what it says that that was, that

01:32:01.380 | was it.

01:32:02.380 | So if, if there is something that we have to consider, we have to think about, let's

01:32:06.260 | go to the scripture.

01:32:08.660 | Something else is coming in.

01:32:09.660 | YRR, Young, Restless, Unreformed, Gospel Center Movement.

01:32:13.260 | Let's go to the scripture.

01:32:14.580 | CRT, let's go to the scripture.

01:32:16.980 | We know we're pounding the, the necessity, the sufficiency, the authority of, of, of

01:32:22.900 | scripture.

01:32:24.260 | And you know, what's interesting is you don't know what God is going to do with that.

01:32:28.420 | You know, you can be faithful and a church could grow or the church could shrink because

01:32:33.100 | you were faithful.

01:32:34.100 | That, that's, that's not up to us.

01:32:36.540 | Right.

01:32:37.540 | And I'm thankful because that continues to be our mission that just continues to be our

01:32:43.420 | mission.

01:32:44.420 | I know for all of us, if it wasn't, none of us would be able to handle it if that wasn't

01:32:48.780 | our mission.

01:32:49.780 | You know, you know, we're, we're coming about an hour and 30 minutes here.

01:32:55.420 | I can, I can continue to talk as everyone knows.

01:32:59.940 | But I'm, I'm thankful that we were, I'm going to ask for, for any closing comments here

01:33:05.700 | in a second.

01:33:06.700 | But I'm really thankful that we were able to do this.

01:33:09.620 | I gathered the leaders here.

01:33:11.540 | I thought it was opportune because we're, we were getting this new building and on the

01:33:16.740 | outside, you know, things look great.

01:33:19.660 | Things look glamorous on the outside.

01:33:21.900 | And we're striving during a pandemic, but we need to never stray from what we're doing.

01:33:30.540 | If we dwindle because we're teaching the Bible, then, then we dwindle, you know, and I'm,

01:33:35.740 | I'm thankful that that mission has, that we've never strayed from that mission.

01:33:40.060 | If any, you know, we've only just continued to pound that even more.

01:33:43.780 | And I think that, you know, it's important to, to remember, you know, I, I've, I've known

01:33:48.300 | these stories for a while now, but I wanted to share that.

01:33:52.860 | I want to share all these stories with the church.

01:33:55.460 | And believe me, there are a lot of other stories that we were not sharing.

01:34:00.220 | This isn't meant to be an exhaustive recollection of the history, but an anecdotal narrative

01:34:06.860 | one, because I wanted the church to kind of see where we came from.

01:34:12.860 | Not to highlight, not to highlight the men, although there's a healthy tension that you,

01:34:18.140 | you should respect those who are ahead of you because God is glorified in that, not

01:34:25.780 | that you should worship them, but you should respect them.

01:34:27.740 | And we're called to do that because God is glorified in that.

01:34:30.140 | And I wanted that to be achieved, but number two, I want to highlight the work that God

01:34:36.620 | has been doing, that the work that his spirit continues to do.

01:34:41.620 | And if that means in the future that we grow smaller, then it means we grow smaller.

01:34:46.540 | But at the same time, when, when God has placed a church and he has given the conviction to

01:34:53.060 | teach the word no matter what, I want that to be passed down to the entire church, entire

01:35:00.060 | generation.

01:35:01.100 | If you think we have some kind of formula, that's not it.

01:35:03.860 | That is not, it's just study the Bible, do what it says.

01:35:07.100 | I want to kind of go around and just ask anyone if they have any kind of, any closing thoughts,

01:35:13.260 | any closing comments before I kind of wrap this episode up.

01:35:15.860 | Yeah, I have one.

01:35:18.020 | You know, as one of the, if not the longest member here, I feel like I'm the most, the

01:35:26.140 | beneficiary of that because I've seen pretty much everything in the context of what God

01:35:32.220 | has been doing.

01:35:33.220 | So, you know, my appreciation for God and this church is deep with all the experiences.

01:35:40.820 | So in essence, that as most of us continue to strive and serve and attend this church,

01:35:50.620 | that convey, that may be conveyed that God is the one who is building this up.

01:35:57.620 | Yeah, you know, I think about that time when I did come on to the pastoral staff, like

01:36:06.180 | I felt in that first moment, like a massive weight.

01:36:10.660 | I didn't realize how much like weight it would cause, but feeling that the weight was so

01:36:16.140 | heavy.

01:36:17.140 | And if you remember when I came on to the staff again, there was also Alex and Henry.

01:36:21.880 | And then around the same time of the plant, Henry went up with the plant, Alex went out

01:36:26.500 | to China for missions and things like that.

01:36:28.860 | And I remember distinctly the elders saying to the church, "Hey church, we're not just

01:36:34.260 | hiring people to do the work because the building up of the church is a responsibility God has

01:36:39.660 | given for us as a community."

01:36:42.260 | And so for me, like I feel that, again, you said everybody has stories.

01:36:48.980 | I feel like really our church has invested into the building up of the body and they

01:36:53.380 | have stories.

01:36:54.380 | They tell stories about the building project, late small groups, they tell stories about

01:36:58.940 | youth group ministry, college ministry, you know, and so in my mind, as I think about

01:37:03.420 | again, like just now tracing through the history, you know, so many different hands and also

01:37:09.060 | people's heart and investment into the body, I'm just super grateful, you know, so.

01:37:18.820 | My closing thoughts was, I guess, being the shortest here, three years, coming from a

01:37:28.100 | church that I had been at for so long and now hearing from the perspective of people

01:37:32.540 | who have been at this church for so long, it's a reminder, I think, to all our church

01:37:37.420 | members who are listening that it's easy when you're at a church to be critical just because

01:37:44.540 | that's how we are, you know.

01:37:47.540 | But being here for the last few years, there's just so much to be thankful for and many times,

01:37:53.700 | I think the spirit of division comes when we have a critical heart rather than a unified

01:37:59.940 | heart that desires to strive together for, you know, the gospel for His kingdom.

01:38:05.380 | And so I'm thankful to be here and I hope everyone listening is too because we're very,

01:38:10.500 | very blessed.

01:38:12.180 | Yeah, my closing thought is, you know, we're just the leaders here and pastors reminiscing

01:38:20.780 | back to how the church got started and what had happened, but there's also many who have

01:38:28.780 | just, you know, been with us for a very long time, who have really contributed to the growth

01:38:33.540 | of the church, the health of the church.

01:38:35.940 | Even though your name is not mentioned, you know, what we're talking about here all encompasses

01:38:43.060 | every member and I could name multiple people who have really made Berean what it is because

01:38:51.500 | there's a certain culture.

01:38:53.280 | And when I go out and I talk to people, they come and they say, "Your church is so nice,"

01:38:57.660 | you know, and there's a culture of, I see, of small groups.

01:39:02.940 | Even though that we might not even have a set like discipleship, but discipleship is

01:39:09.580 | happening at our church, you know, because you could see it.

01:39:13.620 | And I think that's been the culture of our church.

01:39:16.300 | Even though we might not have ingrained a certain, you know, "Hey, this is what we're

01:39:20.940 | going to do ABC," but I think at Berean there is a culture of reaching out, doing discipleship,

01:39:28.620 | one-on-one meeting, you know, things like that.

01:39:31.100 | And I think that's what I appreciate and there are many people who are doing that, nameless,

01:39:37.260 | been doing that and serving the church that contributed.

01:39:40.900 | It's not just the pastors, not just the elders.

01:39:43.620 | So that's what makes Berean, I just want to emphasize that.

01:39:48.060 | - For me, Elder James, you just, you mentioned, you use the words cancer scare, but for me,

01:39:52.900 | I think from the very beginning, the moment I found out this, you know, about the diagnosis,

01:39:59.500 | I actually was filled with a lot of gratitude, thinking like, "Oh, this is good for our church."

01:40:03.700 | And that was one of the first thoughts I had, "Well, this is so good for our church, this

01:40:07.340 | is timely."

01:40:08.340 | And this is pre-pandemic, but it's like, "Oh, our church kind of needs this, it needs one

01:40:11.900 | of us to be sick."

01:40:14.020 | And so, and that was, you know, with the possibility, okay, I might not make it more than a year

01:40:18.700 | or two, but that hasn't changed.

01:40:21.620 | And I think one of the things that I've seen our church, one of the things that I benefited

01:40:27.740 | from is, man, we were the recipient of so much love and support over the course of the

01:40:31.900 | 14, 15 months.

01:40:33.980 | And I think those 14, 15 months, we got a minimum of two meals a week, at least one

01:40:40.420 | letter mailed in the week, just, and you have a whole slew of text messages, phone calls,

01:40:45.940 | and stuff like that, and people praying.

01:40:47.740 | And so I think that's kind of like a lot of the strength of the church.

01:40:52.260 | I mean, that's, I'm a beneficiary, as much as I am one of the shepherds of the church,

01:40:57.220 | I'm a beneficiary of just the church body.

01:41:01.860 | And so I don't think I would ever call it a cancer scare.

01:41:04.860 | It was a divinely ordained avenue for growth.

01:41:10.620 | And I'm so thankful for that, and for the church, and how everything played out that

01:41:14.180 | way.

01:41:15.180 | And so, and I think my tune would be the same, had I taken a turn for the worse.

01:41:19.420 | But yeah, I think by God's grace and kindness, and the help of the church, the whole 14 months

01:41:24.860 | was very smooth, and almost easy.

01:41:28.060 | Amen.

01:41:29.060 | Well, I just want to thank you, James, for doing this.

01:41:33.580 | And again, you know, obviously, most of the stories that we've told are stories that we've

01:41:37.740 | told, you know, many times, and I know, you know, like all the stuff that we've shared,

01:41:43.580 | but I think just kind of sitting here and going over and reminiscing, kind of reminds

01:41:47.620 | us of God's hand and His faithfulness through all of it.

01:41:51.700 | And like you said, every time we grow a certain point, people ask me like, "Oh so what are

01:41:57.260 | you doing?"

01:41:58.260 | And it's like, "I have no idea."

01:41:59.260 | Because we've never been here, I've never run a church of 700 people, I've never run

01:42:02.580 | a church of 400 or 200.

01:42:05.340 | Like you tell me how to lead a small group, you know, of 20 people, like I've done that

01:42:09.340 | for years.

01:42:10.340 | But like 700, if we get to a thousand, I've never been there.

01:42:13.340 | Like what is the church going to look like at that time?

01:42:15.900 | And so, you know, like my philosophy has always been like when I first came I felt so overwhelmed.

01:42:23.340 | You have to get a psychology degree, you have to get a business degree, you have to be the

01:42:27.940 | top theologian, you have to be the best teacher, you have to be the most caring and gentle.

01:42:33.060 | And so you have to be all things to all men, and you really have to be good at that.

01:42:37.280 | So I felt overwhelmed.

01:42:38.280 | Like I don't know if I can do this, right?

01:42:42.260 | And then it was kind of like hitting that frustration, I don't know if ministry was

01:42:48.020 | meant to be this way.

01:42:49.020 | I don't know if that pressure is coming from God or it's just the way that we do ministry

01:42:53.260 | now.

01:42:54.260 | You know?

01:42:55.260 | And you look at God chose like fishermen who do nothing and started with them.

01:42:58.860 | It's like why has ministry become so complicated?

01:43:00.940 | You know like we have to get, like the businesses have a ten year plan, five year plan, and

01:43:06.620 | we're going to do this and that.

01:43:08.060 | Not that there's anything wrong with that if you're gifted in doing that.

01:43:12.280 | So that's why our ministry to me is very simple, right?

01:43:15.900 | Like I can read the Bible and I can do my best to teach it and I can apply it, right?

01:43:22.060 | It's very simple.

01:43:23.660 | And then whatever happens then, if you happen to be gifted in certain areas you'll be gifted

01:43:27.460 | in that.

01:43:28.460 | So that's kind of how I function day to day, you know?

01:43:31.580 | And that's how I don't get overwhelmed.

01:43:34.180 | I can't do that.

01:43:35.180 | If you say you're not good at that, I say good, I know that better than you do.

01:43:38.940 | You know?

01:43:39.940 | So I'm just going to do what He told me to do, which is preach the Word in season and

01:43:44.700 | out of season.

01:43:45.700 | And whatever happens, happens.

01:43:47.700 | Then I'm so thankful for the, you know, new staff that was added.

01:43:52.020 | Thank you for you and the elders and you know, to me, like what I enjoy the most about the

01:43:57.500 | church is the leadership.

01:43:59.940 | You know, whatever's happening out there, as long as we're united, as long as we're

01:44:03.140 | on the same page, it doesn't seem that, you know, that difficult because we're handling

01:44:08.780 | it together.

01:44:10.020 | You know?

01:44:11.020 | Earlier part of the church obviously that wasn't the case, but now, you know, and that's

01:44:14.140 | why I think like adding, whoever gets added to this, to me it's not just somebody to come

01:44:19.540 | in and take some of the responsibility.

01:44:21.460 | That's not how I see it.

01:44:22.460 | You know, I see whoever is being added is like, we're getting married to this person.

01:44:27.980 | You know, you have to be, you have to enjoy being with that person.

01:44:30.500 | You have to be able to trust that person.

01:44:32.900 | You know, you have to have confidence that we're on the same page, you know, not 100%

01:44:37.780 | but enough where like that's the guy I'm going to run to and that's the guy, and I'm the

01:44:42.140 | guy he's going to run to if he needs help and I feel like we have that here.

01:44:46.660 | You know, I know Pastor Nate, the only person that came from the outside, you know, so very

01:44:50.780 | thankful for him, you know, that he came in and obviously, you know, added to our church,

01:44:56.660 | but him coming has opened the door to make me think, is there another Nate out there?

01:45:01.060 | You know what I mean, maybe, because we never even entertained that, but obviously God has

01:45:06.260 | other people that God can use, whether it's a lay person or whether it's a staff coming

01:45:11.260 | to church, that God is raising up other people and that kind of caused me to kind of like,

01:45:16.300 | okay, maybe going forward, you know, that is a possibility.

01:45:19.980 | But again, more than anything else, I'm very thankful, you know, like I actually enjoy

01:45:25.660 | coming to church because I'm around guys that I, you know, not only feel comfortable with

01:45:30.380 | but feel like we're sharing our lives together.

01:45:32.780 | Yeah.

01:45:33.780 | So I enjoy Saturday morning.

01:45:35.300 | Yeah.

01:45:36.300 | I'm up anyway.

01:45:37.300 | Yeah.

01:45:38.300 | Yeah.

01:45:39.300 | You know, we, one thing that we all agree on is that there is, there's absolute like

01:45:46.100 | love here.

01:45:47.100 | You know, there's absolute love here.

01:45:48.860 | And you said it before Pastor Peter, when we disagree about something, it's a disagreement

01:45:53.500 | amongst brothers.

01:45:54.500 | It's a disagreement amongst brothers, right?

01:45:58.300 | And you know, we, we come out of it united, we come out of it united.

01:46:02.340 | And that's, I, this is the only church I've really been at my adult life.

01:46:07.380 | So I don't know if other churches have that.

01:46:09.060 | I'm assuming they have that.

01:46:11.100 | But all I know is that I love it, you know?

01:46:13.180 | So Pastor, can you, can you pray for us?

01:46:15.460 | And then we'll, we'll end the episode.

01:46:17.980 | Heavenly Father, we just want to thank you so much for just over the years being so faithful

01:46:23.620 | to us.

01:46:24.620 | Lord, we are your servants.

01:46:27.140 | And as you told us, even, even thousands of years ago to your people, to not turn from

01:46:32.260 | your word to the left or to the right, that we may meditate on it day and night, that

01:46:36.900 | we may be successful and prosperous in all that we do.

01:46:39.900 | I pray Father God that that truth would continue to carry on, not just for our generation,

01:46:45.100 | but even to our children and our children after that.

01:46:48.560 | And I pray Father God for continued unity in our hearts.

01:46:51.860 | I thank you for all the different people that have been here from the beginning, for the

01:46:56.100 | new people that you're bringing, Lord God, adding to the community that we have.

01:47:00.940 | And we don't know what you have in store for us in the future, but we pray that our love

01:47:05.500 | for you and your love for us, Lord, would be at the foundation.

01:47:09.140 | And so we pray for continued grace.

01:47:10.940 | We pray for continued unity and just asking, Lord God, that your purpose of why you planted

01:47:16.540 | the church, Lord, that you would find fruit in us, that in this dark world, Lord God,

01:47:21.460 | as people are striving in darkness to look for life, help us, Lord God, to point them

01:47:27.100 | to you, and that as you have given us resources and even this building and even the leadership,

01:47:34.900 | help us, Lord, to bring more people to you, that during the time that we have on this

01:47:39.900 | earth, that we would truly be spent, Lord God, bringing people to you, to love you,

01:47:44.500 | to honor you, to save them from their sins.

01:47:46.980 | And so we ask that you would cause a great renewal and revival, Lord God, and that we

01:47:52.100 | would use the foundation that you've laid in this church for the sake of your glory.

01:47:55.500 | In Jesus' name we pray.

01:47:57.460 | Amen.

01:47:58.460 | Amen.

01:47:59.460 | All right, Brain, see you soon.

01:48:03.740 | If you've listened to the entire episode, you definitely deserve a cookie, at least

01:48:11.220 | a sticker.

01:48:12.780 | All kidding aside, as I said in the beginning of the episode, I hope this helps bring in

01:48:16.860 | gratitude to our God.

01:48:19.100 | I could tell you, despite the fact that the episode was nearly two hours, for us recording,

01:48:24.660 | the time just flew by for us as we were reminiscing about all that God had done to bring us to

01:48:30.300 | where we were.

01:48:32.300 | And that is the same God that continues to work, that through simple obedience, God will

01:48:39.740 | build his church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

01:48:45.740 | Because the chief shepherd of Brain Community Church are not the leaders, but is Jesus Christ.

01:48:54.540 | Thanks for making it to the end.

01:48:56.780 | I'll continue to try to make the journey worth it.

01:49:00.860 | To him be honor, glory, and eternal dominion.

01:49:04.820 | James Hahn out.

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