Everyday Educator - Character Study: What We Learn from Fictional Characters
00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)
00:00:03.000 | - Welcome friends to this episode
00:00:05.820 | of the "Everyday Educator" podcast.
00:00:08.540 | I'm your host, Lisa Bailey,
00:00:10.400 | and I'm excited to spend some time with you today
00:00:13.440 | as we encourage one another, learn together,
00:00:16.520 | and ponder the delights and challenges
00:00:19.280 | that make homeschooling the adventure of a lifetime.
00:00:22.560 | Whether you're just considering
00:00:24.720 | this homeschooling possibility
00:00:27.000 | or deep into the daily delight of family learning,
00:00:31.360 | I believe you'll enjoy thinking along with us.
00:00:35.340 | But don't forget, although this online community is awesome,
00:00:40.200 | you will find even closer support in a local CC community.
00:00:45.200 | So go to classicalconversations.com
00:00:49.560 | and find a community near you today.
00:00:54.980 | Well, listeners, I'm excited to welcome you to this episode.
00:00:59.400 | We are gonna talk about character study.
00:01:03.740 | And that sounds like a kind of a dry thing,
00:01:07.520 | but something that we as parents are very interested in.
00:01:11.660 | But we're gonna talk about character study
00:01:14.360 | from a different perspective,
00:01:16.160 | maybe than you've ever considered before.
00:01:19.960 | We're gonna marry that
00:01:21.400 | with a discussion of great literature.
00:01:24.320 | And why is it important to read books as a family
00:01:29.320 | and to discuss books with your children?
00:01:33.400 | And what can you do when you're talking about books,
00:01:38.320 | besides just say, what was the story about
00:01:41.200 | and what happened in the story
00:01:43.540 | and what did you learn at the end?
00:01:46.440 | Some of the best conversations come
00:01:50.000 | when you dive into the characters that you love
00:01:54.040 | or the characters that you hate in a book
00:01:57.720 | and try to pick apart what you can learn about yourself,
00:02:02.720 | about human nature and about making better decisions
00:02:08.080 | by reading books together.
00:02:09.640 | And I have a really great guest
00:02:13.120 | who loves to think about all of those things
00:02:16.120 | and has been thinking about them for a long time.
00:02:19.160 | I have with me today, Stephanie Meter,
00:02:21.720 | who is the Curriculum Developer
00:02:26.480 | for the Exposition Strand
00:02:28.880 | here at Classical Conversations Multimedia.
00:02:32.480 | Stephanie, welcome and thanks for coming.
00:02:36.080 | - Thank you, I'm excited to talk about this.
00:02:38.400 | - You always like to talk about books, I know.
00:02:40.640 | I can always count on you to have a good perspective
00:02:43.680 | and a really good story.
00:02:45.020 | So I'm excited for our listeners to hear from you today.
00:02:49.320 | I want you to tell me, you might have to go back,
00:02:52.600 | not as far back as some of us would have to go,
00:02:55.720 | but who is the first character
00:03:00.720 | you remember meeting in a book?
00:03:04.980 | - So I don't know.
00:03:09.420 | (laughing)
00:03:10.680 | - You have been reading books for a really long time, I know.
00:03:13.920 | - Yes, and I don't really remember not knowing characters
00:03:17.960 | because books were such a part of just, you know,
00:03:21.880 | my infancy on all the way up.
00:03:24.960 | I can say that I remember Betsy in the Betsy Tacey series.
00:03:29.960 | - Yes.
00:03:32.200 | - And Laura from "Little House on the Prairie"
00:03:34.760 | were some of my really early characters.
00:03:37.040 | And then a little bit older,
00:03:38.380 | I was maybe like in first or second grade
00:03:41.120 | when we read "The Boxcar Children"
00:03:43.240 | and "Jessie and Violet" really stuck out to me.
00:03:46.400 | So I don't know if I could give you a first character,
00:03:49.640 | you know, when I was three or four, but Betsy,
00:03:53.200 | Betsy maybe was four or five.
00:03:55.800 | - Yeah, maybe.
00:03:58.220 | That is really cool.
00:03:59.660 | So you met these characters,
00:04:02.400 | you met the first characters that you remember
00:04:05.560 | when somebody else was reading to you, is that right?
00:04:09.160 | - Yes.
00:04:10.000 | - Yeah.
00:04:11.600 | - And it's kind of funny,
00:04:12.560 | I was having this thought as you were asking me
00:04:15.120 | about first characters,
00:04:17.260 | that the characters that stuck out to me the most
00:04:19.220 | were girl characters,
00:04:21.160 | which is interesting because in modern movies and books,
00:04:25.840 | I don't tend to love the female characters as much,
00:04:29.300 | but that's never been a problem
00:04:30.800 | with older and classic literature.
00:04:32.480 | And now I have to think about that
00:04:34.600 | because what is it about classic literature
00:04:37.900 | that maybe the characters are just better developed,
00:04:40.280 | but I always like those female characters
00:04:43.000 | more than any of the modern female characters.
00:04:45.560 | So that's kind of a tangent,
00:04:46.540 | but you may be--
00:04:47.380 | - Isn't that interesting,
00:04:48.200 | but that may come back into play.
00:04:51.200 | 'Cause I think in a few minutes,
00:04:52.360 | I want you to talk about why great literature,
00:04:55.280 | what is it that we learn from great literature?
00:04:58.800 | So put a pin in that thought,
00:05:00.320 | 'cause I wanna come back to it.
00:05:03.120 | I love that Betsy from the Betsy Tacey books.
00:05:08.120 | And listeners, if you haven't read this,
00:05:10.600 | this is a series by Maude Hart,
00:05:15.320 | H-A-R-T, Lovelace,
00:05:18.560 | about a little girl named Betsy
00:05:21.320 | who is born around the turn of the century.
00:05:24.680 | And I mean the 1900s.
00:05:27.520 | So she's born in the early 1900s.
00:05:31.200 | And this series takes her from when she is
00:05:35.160 | a really little girl all the way up through her marriage.
00:05:41.000 | And so you can grow up with Betsy.
00:05:44.120 | I myself remember meeting Betsy and Tacey
00:05:49.120 | at the church library when I was a little girl.
00:05:53.760 | Okay, so what did you think about these characters?
00:05:58.600 | What did you think about Betsy
00:06:00.720 | and about Laura from Little House on the Prairie?
00:06:03.980 | - I liked them.
00:06:06.400 | I liked finding pieces of myself in them.
00:06:10.160 | I think especially when you're little,
00:06:11.600 | you resonate with characters
00:06:13.440 | that remind you a little bit of yourself
00:06:15.240 | because you're forming your own identity.
00:06:17.560 | And so when you see that reflection,
00:06:19.640 | it gives you something to look at
00:06:22.880 | and then to aspire to or to use as lessons.
00:06:27.240 | If you are similar to a character
00:06:29.160 | and that character makes some bad choices,
00:06:31.080 | you can think, "Oh yeah, I would have done that as well."
00:06:35.400 | - Yes.
00:06:36.240 | - So I liked these characters
00:06:39.960 | because they reminded me a little bit of me, I think.
00:06:43.800 | And then they were also often a little bit
00:06:47.040 | better than me in ways that I just was noticing.
00:06:52.040 | I think about, especially Laura
00:06:55.840 | from Little House on the Prairie,
00:06:57.040 | just the daily tasks that they were asked to do
00:07:00.400 | and to participate in their lives.
00:07:02.320 | I felt she had a really important role in her family
00:07:05.840 | and that was something that I could aspire to
00:07:08.040 | of doing chores or activities
00:07:12.040 | that actually helped her family survive.
00:07:14.080 | I thought that was really cool.
00:07:15.840 | The same thing really with Jessie and Violet
00:07:17.840 | from the Boxcar Children,
00:07:18.960 | because in that first book, the kids are on their own.
00:07:22.240 | And so they have to figure out how to get food
00:07:24.920 | and cook food and schedule their lives
00:07:28.080 | and get enough sunshine and exercise.
00:07:31.440 | - Right.
00:07:32.280 | - Those were things that were inspiring to me.
00:07:36.400 | So finding characters that reminded me of me
00:07:39.000 | but that were a little bit better
00:07:40.760 | so that I could have something to reach toward.
00:07:43.200 | - I like that, I like that.
00:07:45.920 | I can remember,
00:07:49.720 | and I'm just gonna go ahead and say this
00:07:53.560 | because probably in some of the stories that we'll tell,
00:07:56.200 | it's gonna come out or either be awkward.
00:07:59.000 | Stephanie and I are related.
00:08:00.760 | I'm actually Stephanie's mom.
00:08:03.040 | And so I remember what she was like
00:08:06.800 | from my perspective anyway,
00:08:09.600 | when she was being introduced to some of these characters.
00:08:13.720 | So what I was gonna say, Stephanie,
00:08:15.320 | is that I can remember when you read the Boxcar Children
00:08:20.320 | that for months, if not years after that,
00:08:25.760 | you and Sarah played Boxcar Kids.
00:08:29.400 | You played that with everybody who came to the house
00:08:32.640 | and you played what would it be like
00:08:35.360 | if we lived by ourselves?
00:08:37.240 | How would we make it?
00:08:39.560 | - Yes, I mean, the pine straw beds,
00:08:43.040 | we had pine trees in our yard.
00:08:45.160 | So the Boxcar Children made their beds of pine straw.
00:08:49.040 | And I mean, that was a staple in our games for years.
00:08:52.160 | - Yes.
00:08:53.000 | I think, I found it interesting
00:08:56.840 | that you learned how to do things from reading.
00:09:01.840 | I remember when you came in and asked for aluminum foil
00:09:06.840 | because you were making an oven
00:09:08.960 | with some bricks you had found in the woods.
00:09:12.600 | And I remember thinking, how do you know these things?
00:09:16.920 | And so it was interesting to me,
00:09:19.000 | all the odd skills and odd bits of knowledge
00:09:24.320 | you seem to glean from the books that we read.
00:09:28.280 | - Yeah, a lot of weird knowledge.
00:09:31.920 | I can, well, I probably couldn't,
00:09:34.680 | but I think I could have a chance at preserving ice
00:09:38.640 | using straw and shade thanks to Farmer Boys.
00:09:41.800 | - It's so funny.
00:09:44.440 | I think it's beautiful the way that reading can give you
00:09:49.440 | scope for your imagination, as Anne Shirley would say.
00:09:54.600 | But also practical knowledge
00:09:58.680 | that you might not just come upon
00:10:01.200 | in your everyday modern life.
00:10:03.920 | So that's very cool.
00:10:06.480 | So can you think of other memorable characters
00:10:09.920 | you've encountered in your reading?
00:10:12.480 | And did you find yourself wanting to be like or not like?
00:10:17.480 | Or maybe give us some characters you wanted to be like
00:10:20.960 | and why, and some characters you did not want to be like
00:10:25.560 | and why.
00:10:26.480 | - Yeah.
00:10:29.000 | So interestingly, I think the characters that I wanted
00:10:31.560 | to be like stick out to me more than the characters
00:10:34.720 | I didn't want to be like.
00:10:35.960 | I definitely have some in mind that I don't wanna be like,
00:10:38.120 | but on the whole, I would say the characters that I did like
00:10:41.720 | and want to emulate stuck out to me more.
00:10:44.200 | And thinking about this question,
00:10:46.640 | what's occurring to me is that most of the characters
00:10:49.360 | that have stuck with me are either from books
00:10:52.040 | that I read when I was very young,
00:10:55.200 | or books that I got to study with a more fine tooth comb.
00:10:59.720 | So either books that I read when I was like 14 years old
00:11:02.760 | or younger, or books that I read,
00:11:05.200 | had to read slowly and talk about.
00:11:07.920 | Those are the two categories that really stick with me.
00:11:10.680 | Characters I wanted to be like,
00:11:12.800 | I talked about that a little bit already,
00:11:14.400 | but I also, funny that comes to mind is Beatrice
00:11:19.040 | from Beezus and Ramona.
00:11:20.560 | - Oh, yes.
00:11:22.000 | - And Beatrice is not even the main character.
00:11:24.320 | She's like the sort of, she's the annoying older sister
00:11:28.560 | because she's so responsible.
00:11:30.840 | And I kind of wanted to be like that.
00:11:33.480 | I thought she was really cool.
00:11:35.200 | - Right, well, you were the older sister.
00:11:37.320 | So you probably had some of those same tendencies,
00:11:41.480 | although I did not find you annoying,
00:11:43.280 | but I won't ask your sister if she found you annoying.
00:11:46.000 | - Well, I think on the whole, I'm more of a Ramona,
00:11:48.240 | but I kind of aspire to be (indistinct)
00:11:51.200 | - That's really good, I like that.
00:11:53.280 | That in the books that we read with our children,
00:11:56.360 | we can allow our children to find the people
00:11:59.200 | that they are like, and then the people
00:12:01.920 | that they maybe wish they were more like,
00:12:04.800 | even if they are self-aware enough
00:12:07.240 | to know that they're not quite there yet.
00:12:10.800 | That's pretty good.
00:12:12.440 | - And then like older, I love Betsy and the Hiding Place.
00:12:16.680 | She's just sort of one
00:12:18.040 | of the ultimate aspirational characters.
00:12:20.680 | I don't know how she managed to be both so good
00:12:26.920 | and so likable, because a lot of times characters
00:12:30.280 | that are really good to the nth degree are not likable.
00:12:33.640 | They kind of, they remind us of all the things
00:12:35.520 | that we're bad at, and we find them annoying.
00:12:38.600 | But Betsy was not like that.
00:12:39.920 | She's such an example of a Christian woman
00:12:42.520 | who is being Christ-like, but in a way that's endearing
00:12:46.920 | instead of a turnoff.
00:12:48.360 | So love her.
00:12:50.280 | I also like Edward P. Dowd from Harvey.
00:12:54.200 | - Oh, yes.
00:12:56.200 | - He has a line that has stuck with me since challenge one
00:13:00.640 | that he says, he realized that he needed in his life
00:13:05.640 | to be oh so smart or oh so pleasant.
00:13:09.920 | And for years he was smart,
00:13:11.600 | but he thinks he prefers pleasant.
00:13:14.000 | And that just has stuck with me the whole time.
00:13:17.280 | Just, you can be smart, but being kind,
00:13:20.960 | and maybe kind is a better word for me than pleasant,
00:13:24.560 | is a more enjoyable and effective way to be.
00:13:28.720 | So he's stuck with me.
00:13:30.600 | - Oh, that is lovely.
00:13:32.880 | And that's one thing I wanna encourage you, parents.
00:13:37.040 | Your children, you and your children
00:13:40.480 | are gonna happen upon these characters
00:13:43.240 | that are going to say or do something
00:13:47.000 | that might really change your thought patterns,
00:13:51.360 | could change the trajectory of your life
00:13:53.720 | if you really take it to heart,
00:13:56.000 | take some of those words to heart.
00:13:59.320 | And that kinda leads me into the next thing
00:14:01.240 | I wanna ask you, Stephanie.
00:14:02.680 | I know that you're the strand,
00:14:04.840 | the exposition strand developer,
00:14:08.040 | and you're in charge of developing our curriculum
00:14:10.600 | with regards to reading and writing
00:14:12.440 | and shepherding our families as we learn about
00:14:16.120 | and learn from literature.
00:14:19.320 | So here's a question.
00:14:21.240 | Why do we read so much in the challenge years?
00:14:26.080 | We read a lot of books.
00:14:27.760 | I can remember having students come back and say
00:14:31.960 | when they went to college that they talked to other peers
00:14:36.640 | who did not read a quarter of the books
00:14:39.480 | that they, the challenge students, had read.
00:14:43.600 | Why do we read so much in challenge
00:14:46.080 | and what are we learning?
00:14:48.040 | - Yeah, well, the sheer volume is partly because
00:14:53.240 | there are so many great books out there.
00:14:56.000 | I mean, we want to get a survey of some of the classics.
00:14:59.200 | Reading a number of books also increases the chances,
00:15:04.040 | I think, of students finding characters
00:15:06.400 | that are like them or that resonate with them
00:15:09.040 | and getting a wide variety of situations
00:15:14.200 | and questions answered and settings covered.
00:15:17.080 | So just surveying a number of books
00:15:19.520 | is helpful for a lot of reasons.
00:15:21.360 | And all of them can help you exercise
00:15:24.600 | your moral imagination,
00:15:26.000 | which is something that we talk about a lot at CC,
00:15:29.160 | just that idea of being able to think about
00:15:35.400 | tough decisions and tough situations
00:15:38.600 | and see what the character did
00:15:40.160 | and imagine how that can apply to your life.
00:15:43.160 | So that exercising the moral imagination
00:15:45.800 | is one of the things that we are learning
00:15:48.440 | in all of these books,
00:15:50.120 | as well as learning how to read hard things.
00:15:54.880 | Learning how to read things that are challenging
00:15:59.080 | either in the words or the content
00:16:02.240 | is a skill that you can apply for the rest of your life,
00:16:05.520 | whether you're continuing to read challenging things
00:16:08.640 | or just think about challenging things.
00:16:10.680 | The way that your brain
00:16:12.960 | learns how to put thoughts together
00:16:14.840 | comes through what you're reading a lot of the time.
00:16:17.960 | - I love that.
00:16:21.600 | I really do love that.
00:16:22.640 | And I love that we encourage our students
00:16:27.360 | to come upon hard human struggles
00:16:32.360 | and human nature in all its shades.
00:16:39.920 | We encourage our students to read all about
00:16:43.800 | all of those things,
00:16:45.240 | many of which are disquieting or even disturbing,
00:16:49.920 | but we encourage those students to read those things
00:16:53.720 | while they are in the shelter of their family,
00:16:57.480 | while their families are stewarding
00:17:00.440 | what they take from that.
00:17:02.360 | And that's why it is so important
00:17:05.240 | for families to read together and discuss together
00:17:10.240 | so that students don't carry necessarily
00:17:13.560 | the burden of context and situations
00:17:18.160 | that are too hard for them or too heavy for them
00:17:23.240 | without help to process.
00:17:26.000 | We have Challenge B students reading about the Holocaust.
00:17:33.080 | That is a horrible thing,
00:17:35.800 | a horrible situation,
00:17:37.280 | and the things that the Jews faced.
00:17:40.400 | And the situation itself is difficult.
00:17:45.400 | And so to have students talk with their parents
00:17:51.320 | through that is very important, I think, Stephanie.
00:17:55.480 | - Yeah, absolutely.
00:17:56.760 | And it gives them kind of a safer space
00:17:59.000 | to experience and process these things
00:18:02.000 | than having to encounter them head on in their actual lives.
00:18:06.560 | - Yeah, I like that you brought up
00:18:10.080 | that a lot of the books that we read
00:18:13.400 | help our students consider the questions of human struggle
00:18:19.080 | and how their decisions have shaped them
00:18:24.080 | and how their circumstances have caused them
00:18:28.680 | to react in certain ways
00:18:30.760 | and where they can find themselves
00:18:34.880 | and want to go that way,
00:18:37.560 | and then where our students can find themselves
00:18:39.800 | and think, "I don't want to go that way."
00:18:42.600 | And being able to talk about that in the family
00:18:47.520 | is so very important.
00:18:49.960 | I like that you say we are learning all of those things
00:18:54.080 | by reading a broad selection
00:18:58.000 | during the challengers of all kinds of things.
00:19:02.120 | So we get a lot from reading books
00:19:05.640 | and we gain a lot from talking about books.
00:19:09.880 | What can good literature teach us about writing?
00:19:14.720 | - Yeah, so thinking about that,
00:19:16.480 | people who are excellent at any art,
00:19:20.360 | so I mean, painting, dancing, sculpting, sports, writing,
00:19:24.800 | first start by observing the masters who came before them
00:19:28.280 | and then imitating them
00:19:29.680 | and then eventually coming into their own.
00:19:32.600 | So by reading and talking about great literature,
00:19:36.080 | we can begin to identify the patterns
00:19:38.960 | and stylistic devices that great authors used
00:19:42.240 | and add those to our writing arsenal.
00:19:45.080 | And so doing that, honestly, with study and practice,
00:19:48.760 | I do think that most of us have the ability
00:19:52.160 | to become good writers.
00:19:54.920 | - Oh, wow, I really did want to ask you that
00:19:58.240 | because so many parents that I've talked to
00:20:01.280 | through the years at practicums and at other events,
00:20:05.040 | so many parents have said to me,
00:20:07.240 | "I don't know how I can help my child be a good writer
00:20:10.600 | "because I'm not a good writer.
00:20:12.520 | "I was never a good writer.
00:20:13.880 | "I'm not gonna be a good writer.
00:20:15.320 | "I don't know how to help my child be a good writer."
00:20:18.280 | So what you're saying is that we probably all can learn
00:20:23.280 | to be a good writer if we try
00:20:29.520 | and if we intentionally pick up
00:20:34.320 | on what these great masters were laying down
00:20:37.840 | when they wrote these books.
00:20:40.800 | - Yeah, I really do think that.
00:20:43.040 | So, and I mean, obviously that doesn't mean
00:20:44.480 | that everybody is going to love writing
00:20:46.720 | or that writing will always become the thing
00:20:49.280 | that they're best at.
00:20:50.840 | So just because everybody was created
00:20:52.720 | with different passions and strengths,
00:20:54.640 | writing isn't going to be it for every human.
00:20:57.840 | But I think a good writer,
00:20:59.600 | somebody who expresses themselves clearly and accurately
00:21:02.640 | and is able to keep a reader's attention,
00:21:05.040 | I do absolutely think that everybody
00:21:07.040 | has the capability of that.
00:21:09.200 | - That is great.
00:21:10.920 | What do you think you learned?
00:21:12.400 | 'Cause you were read to pretty much constantly
00:21:17.400 | as a child until you could read to yourself.
00:21:21.400 | And then you read pretty much constantly
00:21:24.600 | since you've learned to read.
00:21:27.200 | What did you, do you remember
00:21:31.280 | what you learned from reading?
00:21:37.040 | - I think a lot of what I learned was unconscious almost.
00:21:42.040 | So I am a writer
00:21:46.000 | and I aspire to be a novel writer one day.
00:21:48.280 | And I can notice that the quality of my writing
00:21:51.880 | is directly related to what I'm reading in my spare time,
00:21:55.320 | which is really interesting and kind of,
00:21:59.040 | I don't know, humbling.
00:22:00.400 | It's weird.
00:22:01.240 | My writing quality definitely goes up
00:22:03.400 | when I read good books.
00:22:06.000 | But the things that I learned from reading,
00:22:09.400 | I mean, I got a good grasp of basic things like grammar,
00:22:13.400 | I guess.
00:22:14.240 | But what's sort of interesting to me
00:22:15.520 | is that I think I got a good understanding
00:22:19.200 | of the shape of a story.
00:22:21.240 | - Ooh, yes.
00:22:23.360 | - The pacing and the elements that make up a good story,
00:22:28.360 | I internalized just because I was reading
00:22:31.120 | so many good stories.
00:22:33.920 | And I drafted the first draft of the novel
00:22:37.800 | that I hope to one day publish when I was 12.
00:22:40.960 | And I still go back to it.
00:22:43.760 | I'm still working on it 18 or 19 years later.
00:22:46.640 | But I actually still go back and reference that draft.
00:22:50.840 | And the things that my editor is telling me
00:22:54.240 | about the shape of the story
00:22:56.560 | are things that I got more right as a 12 year old
00:22:59.240 | when I was reading stories similar to my story.
00:23:03.320 | And I am now.
00:23:04.160 | So just the way the plot beats hit,
00:23:08.040 | the way the elements happen,
00:23:10.240 | it's really strange.
00:23:12.520 | So I think you learn a lot by reading,
00:23:15.480 | especially when you're young,
00:23:18.080 | it just sort of shapes your idea of what a story is
00:23:21.000 | in a way that can be very helpful later.
00:23:24.480 | - I think that's cool.
00:23:25.560 | And it's almost intangible.
00:23:27.280 | It becomes part of who you are.
00:23:29.560 | Like you don't even know that you know it,
00:23:32.360 | but you can feel what makes a good story.
00:23:35.480 | I love that.
00:23:38.760 | I remember, Stephanie, I remember,
00:23:42.800 | I don't remember if you were eight or nine or 10,
00:23:47.240 | but you were around that age.
00:23:49.200 | And we went to the library one time
00:23:51.320 | and I had in general been steering
00:23:56.320 | at least your selection of books
00:23:59.840 | because I wanted you to read what I knew was good
00:24:03.440 | and not just trite and trivial and not well done.
00:24:08.440 | And so I remember the first time you really pushed back
00:24:13.760 | and said, "Well, can't I pick my own book?"
00:24:17.120 | And I remember thinking,
00:24:18.480 | "Oh, I don't think I want to go here."
00:24:21.000 | But I realized that you needed to stretch
00:24:24.200 | and you deserved a choice.
00:24:27.440 | You were a voracious reader.
00:24:30.320 | And so I let you pick a book.
00:24:32.880 | And as you usually did,
00:24:35.360 | you started reading as soon as we got back in the car
00:24:38.280 | and you read all the way home.
00:24:39.600 | And when we got home, you went upstairs and you read.
00:24:42.280 | And it probably was not even 30 minutes later,
00:24:45.160 | you came back down and put the little book you had chosen.
00:24:48.800 | And I don't know if it was like "Pony Girl Club"
00:24:51.280 | or something, some little paperback book
00:24:53.840 | that had caught your eye.
00:24:55.640 | And you stuffed it back in the library basket.
00:24:58.880 | And I asked you about the book.
00:25:01.760 | I asked you if you were done.
00:25:03.800 | Do you remember this at all?
00:25:05.560 | - I remember hearing about the story of it,
00:25:11.040 | but I can't remember what the book was.
00:25:13.240 | - Yes, I don't remember.
00:25:15.600 | I can see the rack you pulled it from.
00:25:18.680 | But I remember you telling me that it was not,
00:25:22.840 | that, I think I asked you if you were done
00:25:25.680 | and you said, "No, you're not gonna finish it."
00:25:28.320 | And I asked you what was the matter?
00:25:30.440 | And you told me that the story was not very well told
00:25:35.440 | and the characters were not very deep
00:25:42.040 | and the story was not believable.
00:25:44.400 | - And there's still some pet peeves of mine.
00:25:48.600 | (laughs)
00:25:49.880 | - Yes, and I remember,
00:25:52.080 | and I just said, "Oh, okay, well just choose another book."
00:25:55.800 | And I remember being so happy
00:25:59.520 | that you had been raised with enough good books
00:26:03.960 | that those deficits jumped out at you,
00:26:08.360 | even as a young girl,
00:26:11.080 | those deficits jumped out at you
00:26:13.720 | and sort of discounted the story.
00:26:16.720 | You didn't feel compelled to finish it
00:26:18.680 | if it wasn't good to chew on,
00:26:23.080 | you weren't gonna finish.
00:26:24.160 | And I was really happy about that.
00:26:26.240 | I was really.
00:26:27.480 | What do you think that good literature
00:26:30.440 | teaches us about words and emotions and places?
00:26:34.840 | What does good literature teach us about human nature?
00:26:38.520 | - Oh my gosh, this is like my favorite question to answer.
00:26:41.080 | - I love it.
00:26:41.920 | Well, go on as long as you want to.
00:26:43.160 | I wanna hear what you think.
00:26:45.040 | - Well, I just think that almost anything
00:26:47.080 | you can learn in the real world
00:26:48.480 | and almost anything you can learn in the real world,
00:26:51.640 | you can learn in part through stories
00:26:53.960 | just because stories imitate life.
00:26:56.680 | And there's a little bit of storyteller in all of us
00:26:59.280 | because we're made in the image
00:27:00.680 | of the ultimate original storyteller, God.
00:27:03.680 | - Yes.
00:27:05.240 | - And through stories, we can watch how decisions
00:27:07.560 | and circumstances affect the characters
00:27:09.560 | and draw real parallels to our lives
00:27:12.120 | and the lives of others.
00:27:15.240 | So like when you're little,
00:27:16.680 | maybe you read a story about a character
00:27:19.600 | who loses a favorite toy and he's sad
00:27:22.400 | and the story maybe even uses the word sad.
00:27:25.280 | And so you get to see what sad looks like
00:27:28.120 | and what causes the sadness.
00:27:30.280 | And you realize that you've felt sadness before.
00:27:32.600 | And so you see yourself in that character
00:27:35.080 | and you more fully understand the word sad.
00:27:37.920 | And now you have language for something
00:27:39.600 | that you have already felt or certainly will feel
00:27:42.800 | at some point as a little person.
00:27:45.400 | And then maybe in the story,
00:27:47.160 | you see how other characters come
00:27:49.160 | and help the main character sit with that sadness
00:27:52.120 | or look for the lost toy.
00:27:54.240 | And you see how the community helps the main character
00:27:56.760 | and that sadness can be worked through
00:27:58.320 | and solutions found.
00:28:00.240 | And so that character shows you
00:28:01.760 | that there's a way out of sadness.
00:28:03.600 | And then when you feel sad in the real world,
00:28:06.160 | first of all, you can name that feeling
00:28:08.040 | because you've read about it.
00:28:09.520 | And second, you have a model for a way to work through it.
00:28:13.120 | And so that's just an example
00:28:15.600 | of how stories might affect a young person,
00:28:18.040 | but the same principles grow with us.
00:28:20.800 | So when we read about character struggles,
00:28:23.320 | poor decisions, good decisions, friendships,
00:28:25.560 | experiences with political or natural disasters,
00:28:30.320 | if we're reading good literature
00:28:31.600 | and talking about it with other people,
00:28:33.760 | we're gaining a kind of experience ourselves
00:28:37.080 | that can lie in wait in our subconscious
00:28:39.480 | or and surface when we need it.
00:28:42.880 | So just, I mean, that's so powerful.
00:28:45.880 | And then, you know, on a different note,
00:28:47.480 | they can, stories can be an effective way
00:28:49.680 | to learn about other time periods or cultures
00:28:53.600 | and information does just tend to stick better
00:28:55.880 | in our minds when it's woven into a story.
00:28:57.760 | So like, that's true for the factual aspects,
00:29:02.200 | but also those emotional beats.
00:29:04.520 | Things just stick with us when they're through stories.
00:29:07.400 | - Wow, that is so rich.
00:29:10.280 | I could pick that apart
00:29:11.400 | and we could probably talk for half a day about that.
00:29:14.840 | I love both of the things you said
00:29:16.880 | that reading teaches us odd little bits of knowledge
00:29:21.880 | that we don't even realize that we are gathering
00:29:27.280 | and filing sometimes away.
00:29:30.040 | I know if you play, if you read a lot and if you are,
00:29:34.680 | you read lots of genres or you read about different places
00:29:39.200 | or different times, you are probably
00:29:43.320 | a really good trivia player
00:29:46.400 | because you know a ton of archaic words
00:29:51.400 | or odd customs or weird things
00:29:56.880 | from different time periods or different places
00:30:00.320 | that you don't even know you know.
00:30:02.720 | They were just like part of the setting
00:30:06.120 | or something that the character used
00:30:09.680 | or something that appeared in a story.
00:30:12.440 | So yeah, you will gather odd bits of concrete knowledge
00:30:16.440 | about the world as it is and the world as it was.
00:30:20.400 | But I love what you said that we gain knowledge
00:30:25.400 | about emotion and about struggle
00:30:30.520 | and about possibilities and about human nature.
00:30:34.640 | I think my favorite thing that you said
00:30:36.760 | was that we build knowledge that surfaces when we need it.
00:30:41.760 | That is awesome.
00:30:45.840 | What a great reason.
00:30:47.280 | And what a great reason, listeners,
00:30:50.720 | for parents to provide good literature
00:30:55.560 | and good characters and to talk about the situations
00:31:02.280 | with their student, for you all to talk about the book
00:31:06.040 | so that you can find what the character is learning
00:31:11.040 | that might be a teachable moment
00:31:14.080 | for somebody in your family.
00:31:16.600 | That is lovely.
00:31:18.320 | So what kind of things do we learn
00:31:20.200 | from literary characters, Stephanie?
00:31:22.440 | How can, if we've got listeners today who say,
00:31:27.280 | yeah, my student is a great reader
00:31:31.040 | and they can write some killer papers
00:31:33.120 | and their vocabulary is huge
00:31:35.080 | and they really are, they're really a good student.
00:31:38.000 | And I've always wanted my child to be smart,
00:31:41.200 | but I also want my child to be honorable and truthful
00:31:46.200 | and a lover of beauty and merciful
00:31:51.080 | and a man or woman of perseverance and honor.
00:31:56.080 | How can parents use literature discussions
00:32:00.040 | as teachable moments for building that kind of character?
00:32:04.280 | Yeah, so this can kind of go back
00:32:08.960 | to what I was saying earlier, I guess,
00:32:10.440 | but watching the struggles and decisions
00:32:13.960 | of characters gives us a lot to think about
00:32:17.240 | in ways that we can apply to ourselves
00:32:19.680 | as well as the characters.
00:32:22.080 | And that's often more comfortable and less impersonal
00:32:25.560 | when talking about your own struggles
00:32:27.360 | or shortcomings directly.
00:32:29.920 | So, I mean, being vulnerable is hard,
00:32:32.080 | maybe especially when you're a challenge age student.
00:32:34.960 | So it is easier to talk about why a character's decision
00:32:38.120 | was wise or unwise than it is to talk about
00:32:40.960 | the unwise decisions that you yourself have made.
00:32:44.040 | But I think processing the cause and effect
00:32:48.120 | of a character's actions can forge trails
00:32:51.440 | in the mind that stick around.
00:32:53.640 | So I'm a little iffy on suggesting
00:32:56.200 | that parents directly use literature
00:32:58.480 | to get to matters of the heart and soul,
00:33:00.600 | just because, depending on the student,
00:33:03.080 | they may scent what you're up to and-
00:33:05.440 | And rebel and not shut down.
00:33:07.920 | Yeah.
00:33:08.760 | Or sending literature with you
00:33:09.880 | trying to hack into their person.
00:33:11.680 | Oh yes, it's the key to your psyche.
00:33:14.840 | Yeah, but I do think that establishing the pattern
00:33:17.720 | of looking at a story or a character
00:33:19.680 | and asking, "Does this remind us
00:33:22.000 | of anything in the real world?"
00:33:23.640 | And vice versa, when situations come up
00:33:25.840 | in real life, establishing that habit of asking,
00:33:28.720 | "Does this remind us of anything in literature?"
00:33:31.400 | can be helpful.
00:33:32.520 | So maybe not ever directly calling out,
00:33:35.360 | "Does this remind you of this time
00:33:37.120 | you made this dumb choice?"
00:33:38.680 | Right, that would be so off-putting.
00:33:40.560 | Oh my word.
00:33:41.400 | Right, but just all the time,
00:33:42.720 | even when you have nothing specific in mind,
00:33:45.920 | continuing to forge that trail of looking at literature,
00:33:49.560 | does that remind you of anything in real life?
00:33:51.800 | Looking at real life,
00:33:52.720 | does that remind you of anything in literature?
00:33:54.960 | And then, especially if you're going
00:33:57.040 | through those conversations
00:33:58.600 | and you don't have an agenda,
00:34:00.160 | that can kind of start to become
00:34:01.400 | part of your student's inner voice
00:34:03.680 | and something that they're turned onto
00:34:05.400 | and analyzing just all the time.
00:34:08.040 | I love that, part of your student's inner voice.
00:34:12.960 | I really liked your reminder
00:34:17.640 | that when we're watching the struggles of a character
00:34:21.360 | and we're discussing that character
00:34:24.520 | and what she or he did or thought,
00:34:28.400 | and then, well, what could they have done
00:34:31.400 | or how did that work out well for them?
00:34:33.680 | How did that work out poorly in the moment
00:34:36.800 | and provide a teachable moment for that?
00:34:39.440 | How did that character grow and change
00:34:43.080 | and maybe develop wisdom from that situation?
00:34:46.320 | Talking about the character instead of your student
00:34:51.480 | gives your student freedom to think their own thoughts
00:34:54.440 | and learn and gain wisdom
00:34:57.040 | without feeling like they're under the microscope
00:35:00.600 | or feeling like you are heavy-handedly
00:35:02.840 | talking about them and some decision.
00:35:05.920 | If you make a practice of talking about the characters
00:35:09.080 | that you guys are reading about and saying,
00:35:12.080 | well, why do you think they did that?
00:35:13.960 | Do you think they were sorry?
00:35:16.160 | Do you think they were glad?
00:35:17.680 | What do you think they learned?
00:35:18.960 | Do you think if this situation happened again
00:35:21.760 | that they would do the same thing?
00:35:23.640 | Why does that seem like they grew from that?
00:35:27.080 | Did they gain wisdom from the experience?
00:35:30.360 | Did they just become harder from the experience?
00:35:34.640 | I think all of those things are really good.
00:35:37.800 | I think that when we discuss the characters
00:35:41.240 | or discuss the situations that our students
00:35:43.680 | are reading about,
00:35:45.280 | it can just be a conversational opening
00:35:49.000 | for matters of the heart or the soul,
00:35:53.600 | even if you're not putting it in bluntly personal ways.
00:35:58.600 | You're talking about mercy in general
00:36:06.080 | or integrity of this character in this situation.
00:36:12.040 | What situations is it hard for people of any age
00:36:17.040 | to be integrous, that kind of thing?
00:36:23.920 | Well, I know we just have a few minutes,
00:36:27.240 | but I want to give our listeners, Stephanie,
00:36:31.200 | some specifics.
00:36:33.440 | How do we do this thing that you're talking to us about?
00:36:38.440 | Let's talk about some of the characters
00:36:41.880 | that we meet while we're reading in "Challenge."
00:36:46.360 | Now, I know that you were a "Challenge" student.
00:36:51.360 | You went all the way through the "Challenge" program.
00:36:55.760 | You have been a "Challenge" director.
00:36:59.440 | So you have been both a student
00:37:01.360 | and a facilitator of discussions about "Challenge" literature.
00:37:08.360 | And so some of these, I know that you have still opinions
00:37:12.680 | about some of these.
00:37:13.640 | What characters, who do you love?
00:37:16.040 | So what are some of the characters in "Challenge" literature
00:37:19.320 | that you loved or love?
00:37:22.320 | Who do you love to hate?
00:37:24.320 | Who's the most complex character to you?
00:37:27.960 | And then I have one other question that I want to ask you,
00:37:30.920 | but answer those first.
00:37:33.000 | - Okay.
00:37:34.440 | So characters that I love,
00:37:35.960 | I don't want to keep harping on it,
00:37:37.680 | but Betsy from "The Hiding Place," love.
00:37:39.920 | Edward P. Dowd from "Harvey," I love.
00:37:43.480 | I also love Jane Eyre, and I have not talked about her yet.
00:37:46.480 | So I love the character of Jane Eyre,
00:37:49.280 | and I think she would probably also be one
00:37:52.360 | that is the most complex to me.
00:37:57.360 | Let's see, love to hate.
00:37:59.000 | I mean, I love to hate Uncle Andrew
00:38:02.280 | from "The Magician's Nephew."
00:38:03.720 | Like, we all just, no one wants to be an Uncle Andrew.
00:38:07.000 | - Oh, my gosh, yes.
00:38:08.440 | - And then I also hate, it's a little less fun to hate,
00:38:13.280 | but Reverend Demsdale from "Husband and Wife."
00:38:15.760 | You know, he's got his own struggles.
00:38:19.640 | He's not just a straight, easily condemned character as much.
00:38:24.640 | - Not totally without sympathy, mm-hmm.
00:38:27.280 | - Yeah, but I respect for him.
00:38:30.520 | And at the time, I remember not liking Crispin,
00:38:34.640 | but I haven't read that since I was very young.
00:38:38.720 | So I think he's one of those characters
00:38:40.400 | that I just wasn't able to see his growth.
00:38:42.920 | I think he probably grows a lot,
00:38:44.400 | and I just had stuck in my mind the initial Crispin,
00:38:49.120 | who's a little bit of a coward.
00:38:50.760 | - Right, right, right, right.
00:38:51.600 | - I didn't like him as a student.
00:38:53.160 | - Yes, yes, I remember that, yep.
00:38:55.600 | - Yeah, well, and also St. John,
00:38:57.840 | which is spelled like St. John,
00:38:59.360 | if you are like me and didn't realize that,
00:39:02.520 | 'cause it's pronounced St. John from Jane Eyre.
00:39:05.160 | I don't like him either,
00:39:06.280 | but I don't wanna get too deep into that
00:39:08.080 | because I want readers to be able
00:39:09.840 | to discover that for themselves.
00:39:11.040 | But I also, I don't like St. John.
00:39:13.640 | - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:39:15.440 | And you said Jane Eyre might be
00:39:16.960 | the most complex character to you, why?
00:39:19.920 | - She's so unusual as a heroine.
00:39:23.280 | Bronte wanted to write a heroine who was not beautiful
00:39:29.280 | and not particularly charismatic.
00:39:31.800 | And to be able to do that
00:39:34.280 | and still have your character carry the story
00:39:37.560 | and be so engaging is very interesting to me.
00:39:41.600 | And I mean, I think I would agree.
00:39:43.480 | I mean, we're told that Jane is not beautiful,
00:39:45.840 | so check. - Right, right.
00:39:47.840 | - Charismatic, she's not charismatic,
00:39:50.280 | but she is likable.
00:39:52.160 | - Yes. - She's interesting.
00:39:53.920 | She's so interesting.
00:39:55.280 | She's very observant of other people
00:39:58.560 | and her insights in other people are fascinating to read.
00:40:02.480 | She's very incisive.
00:40:04.240 | She paints really good character sketches
00:40:06.520 | of the other characters.
00:40:08.360 | And a lot of what you get about Jane,
00:40:11.960 | you get sort of indirectly.
00:40:15.080 | She does sometimes straight up tell you about her character.
00:40:18.720 | She says, "I am not this," or "I do not that."
00:40:21.760 | But a lot of what you get is indirect.
00:40:23.880 | And you have to watch what she actually does
00:40:27.720 | and actually says to put together who she is.
00:40:31.400 | And that's such a fun puzzle to work through
00:40:34.240 | just with the text
00:40:35.400 | and then also with conversations with other people.
00:40:37.960 | - Yes. - People do tend
00:40:39.120 | to have very different opinions on Jane.
00:40:41.800 | And I love to talk about that
00:40:44.520 | because she is someone that I'm very passionate about
00:40:46.960 | and I have a very specific opinion
00:40:49.240 | on a lot of aspects of her character.
00:40:51.520 | - Yeah, yeah, she's a very deep character.
00:40:53.760 | You know, I would agree with you that she's very engaging.
00:40:57.160 | She is not flashy.
00:40:59.160 | So she's not a sparkly blue,
00:41:01.920 | but she is a deep, rich blue.
00:41:06.920 | She's not sparkly, but she is steady.
00:41:10.520 | She's not flashy, but she is substantial.
00:41:16.400 | And her character draws you in over time.
00:41:21.880 | I would agree with that.
00:41:26.760 | I would agree with that.
00:41:28.000 | So let me ask you this.
00:41:29.360 | This might be really personal.
00:41:31.520 | What, have any of the characters that you've encountered,
00:41:37.960 | primarily in the challenge reading, but in any reading,
00:41:42.760 | have any of the characters led to revelations about yourself?
00:41:47.760 | - Yeah, tons.
00:41:52.080 | I mean, short answer is yes, just a lot.
00:41:54.240 | But one of the ones that comes to my mind
00:41:56.600 | is actually Satan from "Paradise Lost,"
00:42:00.560 | which is kind of a wild one maybe.
00:42:03.000 | And this revelation really happened to me in college
00:42:05.320 | when I got to encounter the text for the first time.
00:42:07.920 | But like most students,
00:42:11.800 | I was fascinated by the character of Satan.
00:42:14.040 | Milton gives him a lot of the really good lines
00:42:16.680 | and he is very charismatic.
00:42:18.520 | He's basically, he's seductive,
00:42:21.600 | which is what he really is.
00:42:23.480 | - Right.
00:42:24.720 | - And like as a Christian initially,
00:42:26.200 | I felt kind of nervous or even guilty
00:42:28.680 | about being fascinated with Satan.
00:42:30.760 | - Yes.
00:42:31.840 | - But I did want to analyze his character a little bit.
00:42:35.640 | And so I began to analyze one of his soliloquies
00:42:39.440 | in book four of "Paradise Lost."
00:42:41.640 | And the paper assignment was to analyze
00:42:45.800 | the how of the speech, so to get at the literary devices.
00:42:49.800 | And so that's what I was doing.
00:42:50.840 | But you can only look at the how of a speech
00:42:53.160 | for so long before you start the what he's talking about.
00:42:56.800 | And what I realized in Satan's big speech
00:43:00.400 | was that he was wrong.
00:43:02.560 | And I knew that, obviously Satan is in the wrong,
00:43:06.400 | like he's Satan, but he'd been really articulate
00:43:09.560 | and suave and reasonable in the poem so far.
00:43:12.640 | But all of a sudden I noticed that his argument
00:43:17.560 | wasn't what he meant it to be.
00:43:18.880 | He talks about not, he wants his freedom.
00:43:22.720 | He doesn't want to submit to God.
00:43:24.920 | And he and God are just at odds forever
00:43:28.800 | because Satan wants freedom and God wants submission.
00:43:31.800 | And so Satan's conclusion is that he says to himself,
00:43:36.680 | "Evil be thou my good."
00:43:38.280 | And so he's gonna devote himself to evil instead.
00:43:41.320 | And I realized that Satan,
00:43:43.520 | he doesn't choose freedom in that moment.
00:43:45.680 | He simply decides to make evil his master rather than God.
00:43:49.920 | And so he's still submitting
00:43:52.360 | to something higher than himself,
00:43:55.440 | but he's choosing to submit to evil instead of God.
00:43:58.320 | So he's, you know, God is the only good.
00:44:01.680 | And when we try to circumvent him,
00:44:03.800 | we'll only ever settle for something less.
00:44:07.000 | And so that's maybe a really big sort of lofty thing.
00:44:12.000 | And I don't know if it's directly like about myself,
00:44:16.520 | but mostly I guess what I learned is
00:44:18.520 | a little bit more of who God is
00:44:20.000 | and who I can trust him to be with myself.
00:44:23.160 | So it was just a really revelation moment for me
00:44:28.160 | to see literature acting that way
00:44:32.280 | and making me think through something so big.
00:44:35.640 | So, I mean, I learned about myself
00:44:37.880 | because initially I'm drawn to the evil,
00:44:42.480 | like humans are, we have that in us.
00:44:46.120 | But then being allowed to see that the true way
00:44:48.840 | of setting yourself free is through God was really cool.
00:44:52.880 | - That's lovely.
00:44:56.200 | Thank you.
00:44:57.360 | Thank you for sharing that.
00:44:59.200 | Thank you for sharing that.
00:45:00.400 | I actually think that will give lots of our parents hope
00:45:05.400 | because what you said is that you met
00:45:11.440 | this work of literature and challenge,
00:45:15.280 | but it didn't leave you there.
00:45:16.560 | You studied it again and you were able
00:45:20.400 | as you had grown and matured,
00:45:22.440 | you were able to use your knowledge of literature,
00:45:26.560 | but your knowledge of logic
00:45:28.320 | and your knowledge of spiritual truth
00:45:33.280 | to learn something about God and about yourself.
00:45:36.280 | And that's what as parents,
00:45:39.200 | that's what we hope will happen.
00:45:41.480 | Thanks for sharing that, Stephanie.
00:45:44.680 | - All right, let me ask you this one last thing.
00:45:48.240 | There are lots of characters that we meet in literature.
00:45:53.240 | And we can learn from the lessons
00:46:00.440 | that these characters learn.
00:46:02.240 | We can either learn that we want to be like them
00:46:04.440 | or that we do not want to be like them.
00:46:06.720 | Maybe there's just one thing we learn from the character.
00:46:10.720 | We learn resourcefulness from "The Sign of the Beaver."
00:46:15.640 | We learn hope, maybe.
00:46:19.960 | There are a lot of books that we read.
00:46:24.120 | We read "The Secret Garden"
00:46:26.400 | with our Young Challenge A kids
00:46:28.720 | and characters like Mary and Colin and Dickon.
00:46:33.120 | And we read "To Kill a Mockingbird"
00:46:35.400 | and we learn what a really good parent is,
00:46:37.960 | a parent who struggles, but a parent who's good.
00:46:40.800 | And we read "Pride and Prejudice"
00:46:42.800 | and man, we learned a lot about Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy.
00:46:47.240 | And even from Elizabeth's father, Mr. Bennett.
00:46:50.400 | From "The Iliad," we can learn about Hector and Achilles.
00:46:54.040 | I want you to pick a character that you met,
00:46:58.800 | that our students meet in challenge literature.
00:47:01.400 | Tell us what might we learn from these characters.
00:47:07.160 | - Oh my gosh, there's so many.
00:47:09.400 | All of those that you listed are so good.
00:47:11.640 | Elizabeth Bennett and Mr. Darcy, like as a pair,
00:47:17.360 | I think are really fun to talk about
00:47:19.720 | because they both learn something.
00:47:23.040 | It's not just the main character who has to change.
00:47:26.840 | It's also the secondary character.
00:47:29.200 | - Yes.
00:47:30.040 | - And they learned that they were both very similar
00:47:34.440 | in ways that needed to change
00:47:35.720 | and very different in ways that needed to change.
00:47:38.200 | And I think we can see ourselves
00:47:40.840 | either in one of the two characters or maybe both.
00:47:43.600 | - Yes, depending on the circumstances, you're right.
00:47:46.320 | - Yeah, because Elizabeth is, she's the prejudice
00:47:51.000 | if we're going to do "Pride and Prejudice."
00:47:54.560 | She makes up her mind about Mr. Darcy really early
00:47:57.600 | and also he's rich and so he must be a little bit snobby.
00:48:00.560 | - Right, right.
00:48:01.400 | - And Mr. Darcy is too proud to explain
00:48:05.560 | that he's really just shy is the main thing.
00:48:08.840 | - Yes, yes.
00:48:09.680 | - So he had a lot of reasons, good-hearted reasons
00:48:13.920 | for doing the things that appeared bad to Elizabeth.
00:48:16.840 | He's too proud to unpack that for her.
00:48:20.880 | And so they both have these big character struggles
00:48:24.440 | and in the end, they work through both of those
00:48:28.440 | and they meet in the middle with so much joy.
00:48:31.200 | Sorry, that's a spoiler, but I mean,
00:48:33.320 | you know where this was going.
00:48:34.560 | - Yes, I believe that we do.
00:48:36.640 | - With so much joy and I love that.
00:48:40.600 | I love that to me, it's one of the really good love stories
00:48:45.120 | and love stories are not like my favorite type of story,
00:48:48.520 | but it's such a good one.
00:48:50.480 | And you learn how to be friends with somebody
00:48:53.760 | and help them to sort of shave off those rough edges
00:48:58.480 | and have your own rough edges shorn off a little bit.
00:49:02.880 | So their relationship and the way that Elizabeth
00:49:05.040 | handles things is mature in the end, I think.
00:49:10.040 | And even the mistakes that she makes along the way
00:49:12.680 | are very understandable.
00:49:13.720 | She's not one of those heroines
00:49:15.000 | who does wildly ridiculous things that no one can relate to.
00:49:18.920 | The mistakes she makes are relatable
00:49:21.960 | and make sense in the moment.
00:49:23.440 | And that can remind us that the things that we do
00:49:27.000 | maybe did make sense in the moment,
00:49:28.640 | but we still need to reassess.
00:49:30.680 | - Yeah, that's so good.
00:49:33.080 | There's so, and it makes for some really good discussions
00:49:38.080 | and really good talking points
00:49:40.000 | and really good considerations.
00:49:42.240 | Like, would you ever do that?
00:49:43.600 | Have you ever done that?
00:49:44.640 | Have I ever done that?
00:49:46.200 | Parents, when you're having literature discussions,
00:49:48.960 | don't only put your student under the microscope,
00:49:53.120 | do a little self-introspection, maybe share.
00:49:56.760 | - Yeah, I've made prejudice judgments just like that
00:50:01.400 | before I've judged somebody by what they looked like
00:50:05.240 | or what I thought they were going to act like
00:50:09.000 | or what somebody else said about them
00:50:11.240 | instead of getting to know the person
00:50:12.840 | or asking some clarifying questions of that person.
00:50:17.640 | That's really good.
00:50:18.720 | That's really good.
00:50:19.560 | All right, I wanna give you a chance
00:50:21.640 | to pick one of your favorite characters from "The Iliad,"
00:50:26.320 | discuss one of those characters.
00:50:28.240 | And what did you learn about human nature,
00:50:31.640 | about yourself, about life from one of those characters?
00:50:35.080 | - Ooh, "The Iliad" is just all about human nature
00:50:39.240 | and sort of through the gods as well, which is odd.
00:50:44.080 | But I loved Hector when I read "The Iliad" and "Challenge."
00:50:49.480 | He was my favorite.
00:50:51.080 | I mean, I held him on a pedestal sort of,
00:50:54.320 | and I don't love the name Hector,
00:50:56.600 | but I was like, if I liked the name,
00:50:58.640 | I would name a kid after this character.
00:51:00.160 | Like, I just love it.
00:51:01.480 | What I remember in "Challenge"
00:51:05.360 | is that he was very honorable and brave
00:51:08.640 | and charismatic and a good leader.
00:51:10.680 | I recently reread "The Iliad"
00:51:13.920 | and did not have those same impressions,
00:51:16.840 | which is very interesting.
00:51:18.800 | And I'm very glad that I never named a kid Hector.
00:51:22.000 | (all laughing)
00:51:24.160 | The story has grown.
00:51:25.440 | Well, the story's been the same.
00:51:26.680 | That's the cool thing.
00:51:28.840 | The story's been the same,
00:51:30.600 | but I didn't get those same beats.
00:51:33.880 | And now I want to go back and read my "Challenge" notes.
00:51:36.680 | Like, where did I see the honorable, brave, charismatic?
00:51:41.680 | I mean, there are some moments in "The Iliad"
00:51:43.800 | where I don't know how I took that away
00:51:46.400 | with what actually happens.
00:51:47.880 | And that's so interesting.
00:51:49.480 | - Yes.
00:51:50.320 | - So what I learned about,
00:51:52.680 | well, I guess what I learned about human nature,
00:51:54.400 | A, is that it's multifaceted
00:51:56.120 | and it's going to look different at different times, kind of.
00:51:59.000 | Human nature is a constant in some ways.
00:52:01.240 | I mean, people are always going to be bent
00:52:03.840 | toward selfishness and self-preservation
00:52:06.640 | and want to make decisions that make them look good.
00:52:10.240 | But also, human nature is change a little bit
00:52:17.880 | in that people do grow and mature
00:52:21.160 | and the decisions that you looked at one way
00:52:24.760 | at one point in your life,
00:52:25.920 | you can look at differently later.
00:52:27.840 | And so really one of the things I learned
00:52:31.120 | from literature here is that you have to keep assessing
00:52:35.600 | and keep paying attention to books and to life.
00:52:40.480 | You need to keep your priorities in line with the truth,
00:52:44.440 | with what God is revealing to you.
00:52:46.560 | And some of that is going to shift
00:52:50.200 | as you hopefully become more Christ-like, so.
00:52:53.800 | - I love that.
00:52:55.520 | Oh, I love that.
00:52:56.920 | Okay, very, very last question, I promise.
00:52:59.360 | Why is a story such a grand vehicle for expressing truth?
00:53:04.360 | You were just talking about aligning our lives
00:53:10.560 | with the truth and finding the truth.
00:53:13.120 | Why is story such a grand vehicle for expressing truth?
00:53:19.640 | - I mean, everything we've said so far,
00:53:21.560 | we're wired for stories
00:53:23.000 | because we're made in the image of God.
00:53:25.640 | And so stories get into our hearts
00:53:30.400 | in a way that is just very human.
00:53:32.960 | And it opens up the door for these conversations,
00:53:35.880 | for community, for introspection,
00:53:39.520 | little facts stick in your brain better
00:53:43.360 | when they are through stories.
00:53:45.600 | It's such a grand vehicle for expressing truth
00:53:48.120 | just for all of the reasons,
00:53:50.200 | all of the ways that make expressing truth effective
00:53:54.040 | can be found in stories.
00:53:55.880 | And that's why God speaks to us through the Bible
00:53:58.800 | and why He maybe spoke the world into being.
00:54:01.720 | Yeah, stories are just very unique
00:54:05.400 | in the way that they can speak deeply to all people.
00:54:10.400 | - Yeah, yep, they get at your heart in a way.
00:54:13.960 | And I think that's why Jesus taught
00:54:16.040 | using parables and stories.
00:54:17.920 | They get at your heart in deep
00:54:20.640 | and sometimes very unexpected ways.
00:54:25.200 | Stephanie, thank you so much for being with us today
00:54:28.280 | and helping us to explore characters in literature
00:54:33.160 | and how we can, as parents, have some really good,
00:54:37.560 | deep, maybe life-forming discussions with our students.
00:54:42.560 | I appreciate you sharing today, I really do.
00:54:46.760 | - Thank you for giving me a chance
00:54:48.080 | to ramble about these things.
00:54:49.520 | - Yes, I love it.
00:54:50.840 | And parents, if you are looking
00:54:52.720 | to be a better everyday educator,
00:54:57.440 | let me invite you to check out
00:55:00.520 | the 2025 Practicum event that's coming close to you.
00:55:05.520 | Classical Conversations leaders host Practicums every summer,
00:55:11.200 | they're parent conferences that give an opportunity
00:55:15.280 | for new and experienced homeschool parents
00:55:19.400 | to gather and learn and practice the classical arts.
00:55:23.360 | If you are interested in an opportunity like that,
00:55:27.640 | rubbing shoulders with like-minded home educators,
00:55:31.400 | maybe growing in your own use of the tools
00:55:35.560 | and skills of classical learning,
00:55:38.560 | check out ccpracticum.com
00:55:44.160 | and you'll be able to find out
00:55:45.600 | when your local practicum meets.
00:55:48.880 | That would be a great opportunity
00:55:51.160 | for you to maybe have some discussions
00:55:53.520 | like we have enjoyed having today with Stephanie.
00:55:56.600 | Stephanie, thanks again.
00:55:58.120 | Listeners, I will look forward to talking to you next week.
00:56:01.920 | Bye-bye.
00:56:03.080 | (gentle music)
00:56:05.680 | you
00:56:07.740 | you