Dava Newman: Space Exploration, Space Suits, and Life on Mars

00:00:00.000 | The following is a conversation with Dava Newman.

00:00:03.360 | She's the Apollo Program Professor at MIT

00:00:06.120 | and the former Deputy Administrator of NASA

00:00:08.920 | and has been a principal investigator

00:00:10.720 | on four spaceflight missions.

00:00:13.120 | Her research interests are in aerospace

00:00:15.040 | biomedical engineering, investigating human performance

00:00:18.240 | in varying gravity environments.

00:00:20.400 | She has designed and engineered and built

00:00:23.320 | some incredible spacesuit technology,

00:00:25.640 | namely the bio suit that we talk about in this conversation.

00:00:29.560 | Due to some scheduling challenges on both our parts,

00:00:32.600 | we only had about 40 minutes together.

00:00:34.880 | And in true engineering style, she said,

00:00:37.120 | I talk fast, you pick the best questions,

00:00:39.920 | let's get it done.

00:00:41.280 | And we did.

00:00:42.360 | It was a fascinating conversation about space exploration

00:00:45.440 | and the future of spacesuits.

00:00:47.320 | This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast.

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00:00:58.200 | Alex Friedman, spelled F-R-I-D-M-A-N.

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00:03:06.920 | And now here's my conversation with Deva Newman.

00:03:10.760 | You circumnavigated the globe on boat.

00:03:16.000 | So let's look back in history.

00:03:17.680 | 500 years ago, Ferdinand Magellan's crew

00:03:21.200 | was first to circumnavigate the globe, but he died.

00:03:26.200 | I think people don't know, like halfway through,

00:03:28.600 | and so did 242 of the 260 sailors

00:03:32.800 | that took that three-year journey.

00:03:35.240 | What do you think it was like for that crew at that time,

00:03:38.320 | heading out into the unknown to face probably likely death?

00:03:43.080 | Do you think they were filled with fear, with excitement?

00:03:46.880 | Probably not fear.

00:03:48.040 | I think in all of exploration,

00:03:50.000 | the challenge and the unknown, so probably wonderment.

00:03:53.520 | And then just when you really are sailing

00:03:56.000 | the world's oceans, you have extreme weather of all kinds.

00:04:01.000 | When we were circumnavigating, it was challenging,

00:04:03.760 | a new dynamic you really appreciate, Mother Earth,

00:04:07.280 | you appreciate the winds and the waves.

00:04:08.640 | So back to Magellan and his crew,

00:04:10.920 | since they really didn't have a three-dimensional map

00:04:15.200 | of the globe, of the Earth when they went out,

00:04:18.680 | just probably looking over the horizon,

00:04:20.080 | thinking what's there, what's there?

00:04:21.360 | So I would say the challenge had to be really important

00:04:24.720 | in terms of the team dynamics and that leadership

00:04:26.760 | had to be incredibly important.

00:04:28.880 | Team dynamics, how do you keep people focused on the mission?

00:04:32.480 | - So you think the psychology, that's interesting.

00:04:34.040 | There's probably echoes of that

00:04:35.200 | in the space exploration stuff we'll talk about.

00:04:37.640 | So the psychology of the dynamics between the human beings

00:04:41.720 | on the mission is important?

00:04:43.360 | - Absolutely.

00:04:44.200 | For a Mars mission, there's lots of challenges,

00:04:46.880 | technology, but since I specialize

00:04:48.840 | in keeping my astronauts alive, the psychosocial issues,

00:04:52.600 | the psychology of psychosocial team dynamics, leadership,

00:04:55.440 | we're all people, so that's always a huge impact,

00:05:00.320 | one of the top three, I think,

00:05:01.840 | of any isolated, confined environment,

00:05:04.480 | in any mission that is really pretty extreme.

00:05:07.920 | - So your Twitter handle is @davexplorer.

00:05:11.160 | So when did you first fall in love

00:05:13.280 | with the idea of exploration?

00:05:14.760 | - Ah, that's a great question.

00:05:16.480 | Maybe as long as I can remember,

00:05:18.560 | as I grew up in Montana, in the Rocky Mountains,

00:05:21.080 | in Helena, the capital, and so literally,

00:05:23.080 | Mount Helena was my backyard, was right up there.

00:05:26.480 | So exploring, being in the mountains, looking at caves,

00:05:30.080 | just running around, but always being in nature.

00:05:32.760 | So since my earliest memory is I think of myself

00:05:38.320 | as kind of exploring the natural beauty

00:05:41.720 | of the Rocky Mountains where I grew up.

00:05:43.960 | - So exploration is not limited to any domain,

00:05:46.160 | it's just anything, so the natural domain of any kind,

00:05:49.360 | going out into the woods, into a place you haven't been,

00:05:51.680 | it's all exploration.

00:05:52.920 | - I think so, yeah, I have a pretty all-encompassing

00:05:55.320 | definition of exploration.

00:05:56.760 | - So what about space exploration?

00:05:58.160 | When were you first captivated by the idea

00:06:00.840 | that we little humans could venture out into the space,

00:06:05.120 | into the great unknown of space?

00:06:06.720 | - Oh, it's a great year to talk about that,

00:06:08.400 | the 50th anniversary of Apollo 11,

00:06:10.640 | since I was alive during Apollo,

00:06:12.720 | and specifically Apollo 11, I was five years old,

00:06:14.840 | and I distinctly remember that.

00:06:16.960 | I remember that humanity, I'm sure I probably

00:06:19.920 | didn't know their names at the time,

00:06:21.800 | there's Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin,

00:06:23.560 | and never forget Michael Collins in orbit.

00:06:25.820 | Those three men doing something that just seemed impossible,

00:06:32.440 | seemed impossible a decade earlier, even a year earlier,

00:06:36.920 | but so the Apollo program really inspired me,

00:06:39.580 | and then I think it actually just taught me to dream,

00:06:42.640 | to any impossible mission could be possible

00:06:46.480 | with enough focus.

00:06:48.040 | I'm sure you need some luck,

00:06:49.160 | but you definitely need the leadership,

00:06:50.760 | you need the focus of the mission.

00:06:53.160 | So since an early age, I thought,

00:06:55.280 | of course, people should be interplanetary,

00:06:57.200 | of course, we need people on Earth,

00:06:58.520 | and we're gonna have people exploring space as well.

00:07:00.960 | - That seemed obvious, even at that age, of course.

00:07:04.280 | - It opened it up.

00:07:05.260 | Before we saw men on the moon,

00:07:07.080 | it wasn't obvious to me at all,

00:07:08.140 | but once we understood that, yes, absolutely,

00:07:11.640 | astronauts, that's what they do,

00:07:12.720 | they explore, they go into space,

00:07:14.080 | and they land on other planets or moons.

00:07:16.500 | - So again, maybe a romanticized, philosophical question,

00:07:20.680 | but when you look up at the stars,

00:07:22.680 | knowing that there's at least 100 billion of them

00:07:28.840 | in the Milky Way galaxy, right?

00:07:30.400 | So we're really a small speck in this giant thing

00:07:34.760 | that's the visible universe.

00:07:36.600 | How does that make you feel about our efforts here?

00:07:40.300 | - I love the perspective, I love that perspective.

00:07:42.800 | I always open my public talks

00:07:44.660 | with a big Hubble Space Telescope image,

00:07:46.740 | looking out into, you mentioned just now,

00:07:48.280 | the solar system, the Milky Way,

00:07:49.840 | 'cause I think it's really important to know

00:07:52.040 | that we're just a small, pale blue dot.

00:07:53.880 | We're really fortunate, we're on the best planet by far.

00:07:56.700 | Life is fantastic here.

00:07:58.460 | - That we know of.

00:07:59.300 | You're confident this is the best planet?

00:08:01.060 | - I'm pretty sure it's the best planet,

00:08:02.420 | the best planet that we know of.

00:08:03.780 | I mean, I search my research, as you know,

00:08:05.620 | in mission worlds, and when will we find life?

00:08:08.020 | I think actually probably the next decade

00:08:10.220 | we find probably past life,

00:08:11.780 | probably the evidence of past life on Mars, let's say.

00:08:14.580 | - You think there was once life on Mars?

00:08:17.300 | Or do you think there's currently?

00:08:19.660 | - I'm more comfortable saying probably 3.5 billion years ago

00:08:23.180 | feel pretty confident there was life on Mars,

00:08:24.900 | just because then it had an electromagnetic shield,

00:08:27.540 | it had an atmosphere, has a wonderful gravity level,

00:08:30.780 | 3HG is fantastic, you're all super human,

00:08:34.340 | we can all slam dunk in basketball,

00:08:35.980 | it's gonna be fun to play sports on Mars.

00:08:38.580 | So I think we'll find past,

00:08:40.180 | no, fossilized probably the evidence of past life on Mars.

00:08:43.400 | Currently, that's again, we need the next decade,

00:08:45.460 | but the evidence is mounting for sure.

00:08:47.580 | We do have the organics, we're finding organics,

00:08:49.860 | we have water, seasonal water on Mars.

00:08:52.380 | We used to just know about the ice caps,

00:08:54.660 | you know, North and South Pole,

00:08:55.580 | now we have seasonal water.

00:08:57.180 | We do have the building blocks for life on Mars.

00:09:00.300 | We really need to dig down into the soil,

00:09:02.540 | 'cause everything on the top surface is radiated,

00:09:04.500 | but once we find out, will we see any life forms,

00:09:08.020 | will we see any bugs?

00:09:08.860 | I leave it open as a possibility,

00:09:11.180 | but I feel pretty certain that past life

00:09:13.340 | or fossilized life forms we'll find.

00:09:15.940 | And then we have to get to all these ocean worlds,

00:09:18.340 | these beautiful moons of other planets,

00:09:21.380 | since we know they have water,

00:09:22.620 | and we're looking for simple search for life,

00:09:26.500 | or follow the water, you know, carbon-based life,

00:09:28.620 | that's the only life we know.

00:09:29.960 | There could be other life forms that we don't know about,

00:09:31.660 | but it's hard to search for them, 'cause we don't know.

00:09:33.700 | So in our search for life in the solar system,

00:09:36.180 | it's definitely, you know, search,

00:09:37.780 | you know, let's follow the water,

00:09:39.140 | and look for the building blocks of life.

00:09:41.220 | - So you think in the next decade,

00:09:42.460 | we might see hints of past life or even current life?

00:09:45.340 | - I think so.

00:09:46.180 | That's pretty optimistic. - I love the optimism.

00:09:47.820 | - I'm pretty optimistic.

00:09:48.660 | - Do humans have to be involved,

00:09:50.020 | or can this be robots and rovers and--

00:09:52.660 | - Probably teams, I mean, we've been at it,

00:09:54.140 | on Mars in particular, 50 years.

00:09:55.820 | We've been exploring Mars for 50 years.

00:09:57.820 | Great data, right?

00:09:58.700 | Our images of Mars today are phenomenal.

00:10:00.940 | Now we know how Mars lost its atmosphere.

00:10:03.220 | You know, we're starting to know,

00:10:04.260 | because of the lack of the electromagnetic shield.

00:10:07.060 | We know about the water on Mars.

00:10:08.060 | So we've been studying 50 years with our robots.

00:10:10.620 | We still haven't found it.

00:10:11.580 | So I think once we have a human mission there,

00:10:13.820 | we just accelerate things.

00:10:14.940 | It's always humans and our rovers and robots together,

00:10:18.460 | but we just have to think that 50 years,

00:10:19.860 | we've been looking at Mars,

00:10:21.620 | and taking images and doing the best science that we can.

00:10:25.020 | People need to realize Mars is really far away.

00:10:27.420 | It's really hard to get to.

00:10:28.660 | You know, this is extreme, extreme exploration.

00:10:31.100 | We mentioned Magellan first,

00:10:32.420 | or all of the wonderful explorers and sailors of the past,

00:10:35.420 | which kind of are lots of my inspiration for exploration.

00:10:39.100 | Mars is a different ball game.

00:10:40.540 | I mean, it's eight months to get there,

00:10:42.620 | year and a half to get home.

00:10:44.180 | I mean, it's really extreme.

00:10:45.580 | - Harsh environment in all kinds of ways.

00:10:47.740 | But the kind of organism we might be able to see hints of

00:10:51.300 | on Mars are kind of microorganisms, perhaps.

00:10:54.820 | - Yeah, and remember that humans,

00:10:56.460 | we're kind of, you know, we're hosts, right?

00:10:57.900 | We're hosts to all of our bacteria and viruses, right?

00:11:00.860 | - Do you think it's a big leap from the viruses

00:11:03.940 | and the bacteria to us humans?

00:11:06.180 | Put another way, do you think on all those moons,

00:11:10.460 | beautiful, wet moons that you mentioned,

00:11:13.220 | you think there's intelligent life out there?

00:11:15.820 | - I hope so.

00:11:16.660 | I mean, that's the hope,

00:11:17.660 | but we don't have the scientific evidence for that now.

00:11:20.980 | I think all the evidence we have in terms of life existing

00:11:24.420 | is much more compelling, again,

00:11:25.980 | 'cause we have the building blocks of life now.

00:11:28.340 | When that life turns into intelligence,

00:11:31.220 | that's a big unknown.

00:11:32.900 | - If we ever meet,

00:11:33.900 | do you think we would be able to find a common language?

00:11:37.180 | - I hope so.

00:11:38.060 | We haven't met yet.

00:11:39.100 | It's just so far.

00:11:39.980 | I mean, do physics just play a role here?

00:11:42.020 | Look at all these exoplanets, 6,000 exoplanets.

00:11:44.420 | I mean, even the couple dozen Earth-like planets

00:11:46.860 | that are exoplanets that really look like habitable planets.

00:11:50.460 | These are very Earth-like.

00:11:51.480 | They look like they have all the building blocks.

00:11:53.940 | I can't wait to get there.

00:11:54.780 | The only thing is they're 10 to 100 light years away.

00:11:57.820 | So scientifically, we know they're there.

00:12:00.200 | We know that they're habitable.

00:12:01.540 | They have everything going for them, right?

00:12:03.740 | In the Goldilocks zone, not too hot, not too cold,

00:12:06.940 | just perfect for habitability for life.

00:12:10.580 | But now the reality is if they're 10, at the best,

00:12:13.220 | to 100, to thousands of light years away.

00:12:15.700 | So what's out there?

00:12:18.580 | But I just can't think that we're not the only ones.

00:12:20.980 | So absolutely life, life in the universe,

00:12:23.260 | probably intelligent life as well.

00:12:25.020 | - Do you think there needs to be fundamental revolutions

00:12:28.020 | in how we, the tools we use to travel through space

00:12:31.980 | in order for us to venture outside of our solar system?

00:12:35.020 | Or do you think the ways, the rockets,

00:12:38.820 | the ideas we have now, the engineering ideas we have now

00:12:41.700 | will be enough to venture out?

00:12:43.100 | - Well, it's a good question.

00:12:43.980 | Right now, 'cause again, speed of light is a limit.

00:12:47.140 | We don't have warp speed, warp drive.

00:12:48.980 | To explore our solar system, to get to Mars,

00:12:51.900 | explore all the planets, then we need technology push,

00:12:55.700 | but technology push here is just advanced propulsion.

00:12:57.700 | It'd be great if I could get humans to Mars

00:13:00.180 | in say three to four months, not eight months.

00:13:02.460 | I mean, half the time, 50% reduction.

00:13:04.540 | That's great in terms of safety and wellness of the crew.

00:13:08.100 | Orbital mechanics, but physics rules.

00:13:09.700 | Orbital mechanics is still there.

00:13:11.340 | Physics rules, we can't defy physics.

00:13:14.260 | - I love that.

00:13:15.100 | - Invent a new physics.

00:13:16.180 | I mean, look at quantum theories.

00:13:18.260 | - Yeah, you never know.

00:13:19.100 | - Exactly, I mean, we are always learning.

00:13:21.300 | So we definitely don't know all the physics that exist too,

00:13:23.940 | but we still have to, it's not science fiction.

00:13:27.220 | We still have to pay attention to physics

00:13:29.220 | in terms of our speed of travel for space flight.

00:13:32.420 | - So you were the deputy administrator of NASA

00:13:34.900 | during the Obama administration.

00:13:37.220 | There's a current Artemis program

00:13:39.540 | that's working on a crewed mission to the moon

00:13:41.340 | and then perhaps to Mars.

00:13:43.440 | What are you excited about there?

00:13:46.520 | What are your thoughts on this program?

00:13:48.100 | What are the biggest challenges do you think

00:13:49.900 | of getting to the moon, of landing to the moon once again,

00:13:53.660 | and then the big step to Mars?

00:13:57.420 | - Well, I love the moon program now.

00:13:59.780 | Artemis is definitely, we've been in low Earth orbit.

00:14:02.540 | I love low Earth orbit too,

00:14:03.580 | but I just always look at it as three phases.

00:14:05.880 | So low Earth orbit where we've been 40 years,

00:14:07.980 | so definitely time to get back to deep space,

00:14:10.080 | time to get to the moon.

00:14:11.020 | There's so much to do on the moon.

00:14:13.700 | I hope we don't get stuck on the moon for 50 years.

00:14:16.100 | I really want to get to the moon, spend the next decade

00:14:19.020 | first with the lander, then humans.

00:14:20.780 | There's just a lot to explore,

00:14:21.940 | but to me it's a big technology push.

00:14:24.420 | It's only three days away,

00:14:25.340 | so the moon is definitely the right place.

00:14:27.700 | So we kind of buy down our technology,

00:14:29.620 | we invest in specifically habitats, life support systems.

00:14:33.860 | We need suits, we really need to understand

00:14:36.420 | really how to live off planet.

00:14:37.780 | We've been off planet and low Earth orbit,

00:14:39.460 | but still that's only 400 kilometers up, 250 miles, right?

00:14:42.780 | So we get to the moon, it really is a great proving ground

00:14:45.700 | for the technologies, and now we're in deep space,

00:14:48.420 | radiation becomes a huge issue

00:14:50.980 | to keep our astronauts well and alive.

00:14:52.420 | And I look at all of that investment for moon exploration

00:14:57.420 | to the ultimate goal, the horizon goals we call it,

00:15:00.700 | to get people to Mars.

00:15:01.860 | But we just don't go to Mars tomorrow, right?

00:15:03.700 | We really need a decade on the moon, I think,

00:15:05.740 | investing in the technologies, learning,

00:15:07.660 | making sure the astronauts are, their health,

00:15:09.980 | they're safe and well, and also learning so much

00:15:13.740 | about in-situ research, utilization, ISRU,

00:15:16.940 | in-situ resource utilization is huge

00:15:19.100 | when it comes to exploration for the moon and Mars.

00:15:21.220 | So we need a test bed, and to me,

00:15:24.300 | it really is a lunar test bed.

00:15:26.900 | And then we use those same investments

00:15:29.340 | to think about getting people to Mars in the 2030s.

00:15:32.580 | - So developing sort of a platform

00:15:34.060 | of all the kind of research tools,

00:15:35.460 | of all the, what's the resource utilization,

00:15:38.260 | can you speak to that?

00:15:39.100 | - Yeah, so ISRU for the moon, it's,

00:15:42.040 | we'll go to the South Pole, and it's fascinating,

00:15:45.220 | we have images of it, of course,

00:15:47.020 | we know there's permanently shaded areas,

00:15:49.060 | and like by Shackleton Crater,

00:15:50.900 | and there's areas that are permanently in the sun.

00:15:53.340 | Well, it seems that there's a lot of water, ice,

00:15:56.220 | you know, water that's trapped in ice,

00:15:58.660 | and the lunar craters, that's the first place you go.

00:16:01.260 | Why?

00:16:02.100 | Because it's water, and when you wanna try to,

00:16:03.860 | it could be fuel, you know, life support systems,

00:16:06.180 | so you kinda, again, you go where the water is.

00:16:08.820 | And so when the moon is kind of for resources, utilization,

00:16:12.680 | but to learn how to, can we make the fuels

00:16:15.100 | out of the resources that are on the moon?

00:16:16.900 | We have to think about 3D printing, right?

00:16:18.220 | You don't get to bring all this mass with you.

00:16:20.100 | You have to learn how to literally live off the land.

00:16:22.780 | We need a pressure shell, we need to have an atmosphere

00:16:26.020 | for people to live in.

00:16:28.340 | So all of that is gonna bind down the technology,

00:16:31.040 | doing the investigation, doing the science,

00:16:32.940 | what are the, basically, we call them lunar volatiles,

00:16:35.340 | you know, what is that ice on the moon,

00:16:38.140 | how much of it is there, what do the resources look like?

00:16:42.140 | To me, that helps us, that's just the next step

00:16:44.300 | in getting humans to Mars.

00:16:46.460 | - And it's cheaper and more effective

00:16:47.780 | to sort of develop some of these difficult challenges,

00:16:50.140 | like solve some of these challenges,

00:16:51.620 | practice, develop, test, and so on on the moon.

00:16:53.940 | - Absolutely. - That is on Mars.

00:16:54.980 | - Absolutely, and people are gonna love to,

00:16:56.380 | you know, you get to the moon, you get to,

00:16:57.460 | you have a beautiful Earth rise,

00:16:58.860 | I mean, you have the most magnificent view

00:17:00.700 | of Earth being off planet, so it just makes sense.

00:17:03.460 | I think we're gonna have thousands, lots of people,

00:17:05.300 | hopefully tens of thousands in low-Earth orbit,

00:17:06.820 | 'cause low-Earth orbit is a beautiful place to go

00:17:08.940 | and look down on the Earth, but people wanna return home,

00:17:11.060 | think the lunar explorers will also wanna do

00:17:13.980 | round trips and, you know, be on the moon,

00:17:16.740 | three-day trip, explore, do science,

00:17:18.820 | also because the lunar day is, you know,

00:17:20.980 | 14 days and lunar night's also 14 days,

00:17:23.540 | so in that 28-day cycle, you know,

00:17:26.020 | half of it is in light, half of it's in dark.

00:17:29.220 | So people would probably wanna do, you know,

00:17:31.820 | couple-week trips, month-long trips, not longer than that.

00:17:34.700 | - What do you mean by people?

00:17:36.100 | What do you-- - People, explorers.

00:17:37.380 | I mean-- - Explorer?

00:17:38.220 | - Yeah, astronauts are gonna be civilians in the future too,

00:17:41.580 | not all astronauts are gonna be government,

00:17:43.900 | astronauts, actually, when I was at NASA,

00:17:45.180 | we changed, we actually got the law changed

00:17:46.780 | to recognize astronauts that are not only

00:17:49.540 | government employees, you know, NASA astronauts

00:17:51.340 | or European Space Agency astronauts

00:17:52.820 | or Russian Space Agency, that astronauts,

00:17:54.940 | because of the big push we put in the private sector,

00:17:58.300 | that astronauts, essentially, are gonna be astronauts

00:17:59.900 | who get over 100 kilometers up,

00:18:02.800 | and I think once you've done orbital flight,

00:18:06.500 | then you're an astronaut, so a lot of private citizens

00:18:08.760 | are gonna become astronauts.

00:18:10.380 | - Do you think one day you might step foot on the moon?

00:18:13.340 | - I think it'd be good to go to the moon,

00:18:14.540 | I'd give that a shot.

00:18:16.180 | Mars, I'm gonna, it's my life's work

00:18:18.100 | to get the next generation to Mars,

00:18:20.300 | that's you or even younger than you,

00:18:22.900 | you know, my students' generation

00:18:24.900 | will be the Martian explorers.

00:18:26.640 | I'm just working to facilitate that,

00:18:28.900 | but that's not gonna be me.

00:18:30.220 | - Hey, the moon's pretty good, and it's a lot tough,

00:18:32.860 | I mean, it's still a really tough mission.

00:18:35.820 | - It's an extreme mission, exactly,

00:18:37.260 | it's great for exploration, but doable,

00:18:39.940 | but again, before Apollo, we didn't think

00:18:41.740 | getting humans to the moon was even possible,

00:18:43.980 | so we kind of made that possible,

00:18:45.620 | but we need to go back, we absolutely need to go back,

00:18:47.940 | we're investing in the heavy lift launch capabilities

00:18:50.400 | that we need to get there, we haven't had that

00:18:52.100 | since the Apollo days, since Saturn V,

00:18:53.940 | so now we have three options on the board,

00:18:56.460 | that's what's so fantastic,

00:18:57.480 | NASA has its space launch system,

00:18:59.760 | SpaceX is gonna have its heavy capability,

00:19:02.700 | and Blue Origin is coming along too with heavy lift,

00:19:05.300 | so that's pretty fantastic from where I sit,

00:19:07.820 | I'm the Apollo program professor,

00:19:09.900 | today I have zero heavy lift launch capability,

00:19:12.060 | I can't wait, just in a few years,

00:19:13.660 | we'll have three different heavy lift launch capabilities,

00:19:16.020 | so that's pretty exciting.

00:19:18.120 | - You know, your heart is perhaps with NASA,

00:19:20.580 | but you mentioned SpaceX and Blue Origin,

00:19:23.500 | what are your thoughts of SpaceX

00:19:26.900 | and the innovative efforts there

00:19:28.700 | from the sort of private company aspect?

00:19:31.380 | - Oh, they're great, remember that the investments

00:19:34.820 | in SpaceX is government funding,

00:19:36.420 | it's NASA funding, it's US Air Force funding,

00:19:39.220 | just as it should be, because they're betting on a company

00:19:42.340 | who is moving fast, has some new technology development,

00:19:46.380 | so I love it, so when I was at NASA,

00:19:48.220 | it really was under our public-private partnerships,

00:19:50.340 | so necessarily, the government needs to fund

00:19:53.440 | these startups, now SpaceX is no longer a startup,

00:19:56.240 | but it's been at it for 10 years,

00:19:58.220 | it's had some accidents, learned a lot of lessons,

00:20:00.640 | but it's great, because it's the way you move faster,

00:20:03.800 | and also, some private industry folks

00:20:06.260 | and private businesses will take a lot more risk,

00:20:08.740 | that's also really important for the government.

00:20:11.380 | - What do you think about that culture of risk?

00:20:12.980 | I mean, sort of NASA and the government

00:20:15.340 | are exceptionally good at delivering sort of safe,

00:20:18.180 | like there's a little bit more of a culture

00:20:20.140 | of caution and safety, and sort of this kind

00:20:22.480 | of solid engineering, and I think SpaceX,

00:20:24.620 | while it has the same kind of stuff,

00:20:26.100 | it has a little bit more of that startup feel,

00:20:28.140 | where they take the bigger risk.

00:20:29.860 | Is that exciting for you to see,

00:20:31.740 | seeing bigger risks in this kind of space?

00:20:33.820 | - Absolutely, and the best scenario

00:20:37.220 | is both of them working together,

00:20:38.580 | because there's really important lessons learned,

00:20:40.140 | especially when you talk about human spaceflight,

00:20:41.920 | safety, quality assurance, these things

00:20:44.300 | are the utmost importance, both aviation and space,

00:20:47.860 | when human lives are at stake.

00:20:49.300 | On the other hand, government agencies,

00:20:51.820 | NASA can be a European space agency, you name it,

00:20:53.860 | they become very bureaucratic, pretty risk-averse,

00:20:56.820 | move pretty slowly, so I think the best

00:20:59.140 | is when you combine the partnerships from both sides.

00:21:02.200 | Industry necessarily has to push the government,

00:21:05.420 | take some more risk, you know, like there's smart risk,

00:21:07.200 | I actually gave an award at NASA for failing smart.

00:21:10.000 | (laughing)

00:21:11.060 | - Failing smart, I love that.

00:21:12.580 | - Yeah, so you can kind of break open the culture,

00:21:13.940 | say, no, look at Apollo, that was a huge risk,

00:21:16.380 | it was done well, so there's always a culture

00:21:18.700 | of safety, quality assurance, engineering, at its best,

00:21:23.380 | but on the other hand, you wanna get things done,

00:21:26.140 | and you have to also bring the cost down,

00:21:29.140 | for when it comes to launch,

00:21:29.980 | we really have to bring the cost down

00:21:31.060 | and get the frequency up, and so that's

00:21:33.020 | what the newcomers are doing, they're really pushing that,

00:21:35.580 | so it's about the most exciting time

00:21:37.880 | that I can imagine for spaceflight,

00:21:39.740 | again, a little bit, it really is the democratization

00:21:41.840 | of spaceflight, opening it up,

00:21:43.380 | not just because the launch capability,

00:21:45.240 | but the science we can do on a CubeSat,

00:21:47.600 | what you can do now, those used to be student projects

00:21:51.960 | that we would go through, conceive, design, implement,

00:21:54.120 | and think about what a small satellite would be,

00:21:56.400 | now, these are really advanced instruments,

00:21:59.840 | science instruments that are flying

00:22:01.060 | on little, teeny CubeSats that pretty much

00:22:03.280 | anyone can afford, so there's not a,

00:22:05.880 | there's every nation, every place in the world

00:22:08.900 | can fly a CubeSat, and so that's--

00:22:11.040 | - What's a CubeSat?

00:22:11.960 | - Oh, CubeSat is a, this is called 1U,

00:22:15.240 | CubeSats we measure in terms of units,

00:22:17.040 | so just in terms of, I put both my hands together,

00:22:20.060 | that's one unit, two units, three,

00:22:21.600 | so little, small satellites, so CubeSats

00:22:23.800 | are for small satellites, and we actually

00:22:26.080 | go by mass as well, small satellite might be

00:22:28.600 | 100 kilos, 200 kilos, well under 1,000 kilos,

00:22:32.440 | CubeSats then are the next thing down from small sats,

00:22:35.240 | basically kilos, tens of kilos, things like that,

00:22:39.520 | but kind of the building blocks,

00:22:41.240 | CubeSats are fantastic design,

00:22:42.560 | 'cause it's kind of modular design,

00:22:44.120 | so I can take a 1U, one unit of CubeSat,

00:22:46.960 | and what if I have a little bit more money in payload,

00:22:50.340 | I can fly three of 'em, and just basically

00:22:52.520 | put a lot more instruments on it,

00:22:54.120 | but essentially, think about something

00:22:55.600 | the size of a shoebox, if you will,

00:22:57.980 | that would be a CubeSat.

00:22:59.600 | - And those, how do those help empower you

00:23:01.940 | in terms of doing science, in terms of doing experiments?

00:23:04.040 | - Oh, right now, there's, again,

00:23:05.720 | back to private industry, Planet, the company,

00:23:07.640 | is flying CubeSats, and literally looking down on Earth,

00:23:10.960 | and orbiting Earth, taking a picture, if you will,

00:23:13.640 | of Earth every day, every 24 hours,

00:23:15.600 | covering the entire Earth, so in terms of Earth observations,

00:23:19.200 | in terms of climate change, in terms of our changing Earth,

00:23:22.200 | it's revolutionizing, because they're affordable,

00:23:25.000 | we can put a whole bunch of 'em up,

00:23:26.360 | the telecoms, we're all on our cell phones,

00:23:28.640 | and we have GPS, we have our telecoms,

00:23:30.760 | but those used to be very expensive satellites,

00:23:33.820 | providing that service, now we can fly

00:23:35.860 | a whole bunch of modular CubeSats,

00:23:38.580 | so it really is a breakthrough,

00:23:40.460 | in terms of modularity, as well as cost reduction.

00:23:44.300 | - So, that's one exciting set of developments,

00:23:47.380 | is there something else that you've been excited about,

00:23:51.060 | like reusable rockets, perhaps,

00:23:52.580 | that you've seen in the last few years?

00:23:54.100 | - Yeah, well, the reusability,

00:23:55.220 | you had, the reusability is awesome,

00:23:57.540 | I mean, it's just the best, now we have to remember,

00:24:00.060 | the shuttle was a reusable vehicle,

00:24:02.280 | which, and the shuttle is an amazing,

00:24:04.480 | it's an aerospace engineer, you know,

00:24:05.320 | I mean, the shuttle is still just the most gorgeous,

00:24:08.560 | elegant, extraordinary design of a space vehicle,

00:24:12.400 | it was reusable, it just wasn't affordable,

00:24:15.320 | but the reusability of it was really critical,

00:24:18.080 | 'cause we flew it up, it did come back,

00:24:19.660 | so the notion of reusability, I think, absolutely,

00:24:23.640 | now what we're doing with, we, you know,

00:24:26.480 | the global we, but with SpaceX and Vorgent,

00:24:29.160 | setting the rockets up, recovering the first stages,

00:24:31.420 | where if they can regain 70% cost savings, that's huge,

00:24:35.300 | and just seeing the control, you know,

00:24:37.900 | the control and dynamics, just seeing that rocket

00:24:40.820 | come back and land, it never gets old,

00:24:43.260 | it's exciting every single time you look at it

00:24:45.540 | and say, that's magic, so, it's so cool.

00:24:48.020 | - To me, the landing is where I stand up,

00:24:49.440 | start clapping, just the control, yeah.

00:24:51.460 | - Yeah, just the algorithm, just the control algorithms,

00:24:53.780 | and hitting that landing, it's, you know,

00:24:55.580 | it's gymnastics for rocket shifts,

00:24:58.260 | but to see these guys stick a landing,

00:25:01.040 | it's just wonderful, so every time,

00:25:02.580 | like I say, every time I see, you know,

00:25:05.340 | the reusability and the rockets coming back

00:25:07.400 | and landing so precisely, it's really exciting.

00:25:09.760 | So it is, it is actually, that's a game changer,

00:25:12.260 | we are in a new era of lower costs

00:25:15.080 | and a lot, the higher frequency,

00:25:17.480 | and it's the world, not just NASA,

00:25:19.160 | it's many nations are really upping

00:25:21.680 | their frequency of launches.

00:25:23.800 | - So you've done a lot of exciting research,

00:25:25.660 | design engineering on spacesuits.

00:25:28.940 | What does the spacesuit of the future look like?

00:25:33.100 | - Well, if I have anything to say about it,

00:25:34.500 | it'll be a very, it'll be a very tight-fitting suit.

00:25:37.260 | We use mechanical counterpressure

00:25:38.860 | to pressurize right directly on the skin.

00:25:41.060 | Seems that it's technically feasible.

00:25:42.860 | We're still at the research and development stage,

00:25:44.380 | we don't have a flight system,

00:25:45.700 | but technically it's feasible,

00:25:46.980 | so we do a lot of work in the materials,

00:25:48.700 | you know, what materials do we need to pressurize someone?

00:25:51.380 | What's the patterning we need?

00:25:52.700 | That's what our patents are in, the patterning,

00:25:54.740 | kind of how we apply this, it's a third of an atmosphere.

00:25:57.460 | - Just to sort of take a little step back,

00:25:59.220 | you have this incredible bio suit

00:26:00.580 | where it's tight-fitting, so it allows more mobility

00:26:03.660 | and so on, so maybe even to take a bigger step back,

00:26:06.220 | like what are the functions that a spacesuit should perform?

00:26:09.460 | - Sure, so start from the beginning.

00:26:11.620 | A spacesuit is the world's smallest spacecraft,

00:26:14.260 | so I really, that's the best definition I can give you.

00:26:16.460 | Right now we fly gas-pressurized suits,

00:26:18.220 | but think of developing and designing an entire spacecraft.

00:26:22.220 | So then you take all those systems

00:26:23.780 | and you shrink 'em around a person,

00:26:25.580 | provide 'em with oxygen debris,

00:26:27.020 | scrub out their carbon dioxide,

00:26:29.260 | make sure they have pressure,

00:26:30.100 | they need a pressure environment to live in.

00:26:31.700 | So really the spacesuit is a shrunken spacecraft

00:26:36.020 | in its entirety, has all the same systems.

00:26:37.700 | - Communication as well, probably,

00:26:39.060 | all that kind of stuff. - Yeah, communications,

00:26:40.420 | exactly, so you really, thermal control,

00:26:44.060 | little bit of radiation, not so much radiation protection,

00:26:45.940 | but thermal control, humidity, oxygen debris,

00:26:47.980 | so all those life support systems

00:26:49.700 | as well as the pressure production.

00:26:51.620 | So it's an engineering marvel,

00:26:53.500 | the spacesuits that have flown,

00:26:54.500 | because they really are entire spacecraft,

00:26:56.420 | they're the smallest spacecraft that we have around a person,

00:26:59.020 | but they're very massive,

00:27:00.740 | but 140 kilos, the current suit,

00:27:02.940 | and they're not mobility suits.

00:27:04.340 | So since we're going back to the moon and Mars,

00:27:06.020 | we need a planetary suit, we need a mobility suit.

00:27:08.460 | So that's where we've kind of flipped the design paradigm.

00:27:11.660 | I study astronauts, I study humans in motion,

00:27:14.620 | and if we can map that motion,

00:27:16.220 | I wanna give you full flexibility,

00:27:17.580 | you know, move your arms and legs.

00:27:19.100 | I really want you to be like an Olympic athlete,

00:27:21.640 | an extreme explorer.

00:27:23.460 | I don't wanna waste any of your energy,

00:27:25.220 | so we take it from the human design.

00:27:27.100 | So I take a look at humans, we measure them, we model them,

00:27:30.020 | and then I say, okay, can I put a spacesuit on them

00:27:32.980 | that goes from the skin out?

00:27:34.180 | So rather than a gas pressurized shrinking

00:27:36.420 | that spacecraft around the person,

00:27:38.780 | say here's how humans perform,

00:27:40.380 | can I design a spacesuit literally from the skin out?

00:27:42.980 | And that's what we've come up with,

00:27:44.620 | mechanical counterpressure, some patterning,

00:27:46.420 | and that way it could be order of magnitude less

00:27:49.300 | in terms of the mass,

00:27:51.020 | and it should provide maximum mobility.

00:27:53.220 | For a moon or a Mars.

00:27:54.580 | - What's mechanical counterpressure?

00:27:56.100 | Like how the heck can you even begin

00:27:58.920 | to create something that's tight-fitting?

00:28:02.040 | - So-- - And still doesn't

00:28:03.580 | protect you from the elements and so on,

00:28:05.060 | and the whole, the pressure thing?

00:28:06.900 | - That's the challenge, it's a big design challenge,

00:28:08.660 | we've been working on it for a while.

00:28:09.780 | So you can either put someone in a balloon,

00:28:11.340 | that's one way to do it, that's conventional,

00:28:12.860 | that's the only thing we've ever thought.

00:28:13.700 | - What's that mean, that means the balloon

00:28:14.540 | that you fill with gas? - That's a gas pressurized suit.

00:28:15.980 | So put someone in a balloon.

00:28:16.900 | It's only a third of an atmosphere

00:28:18.960 | to keep someone alive, so that's what the current system is,

00:28:20.780 | so depending on what units you think,

00:28:22.340 | and 30 kilopascals, 4.3 pounds per square inch.

00:28:25.300 | - So much less than the pressure that's on Earth.

00:28:28.180 | You can still keep a human alive with .3,

00:28:31.740 | and it's alive and happy.

00:28:33.540 | - Alive and happy, and you mix the gases.

00:28:35.780 | Do you need, here, we're having this chat,

00:28:37.700 | and we're at one sea level in Boston,

00:28:39.940 | at one atmosphere, but a suit--

00:28:42.260 | - Oxygen and nitrogen.

00:28:43.420 | - Oxygen and nitrogen, and you put a suit,

00:28:45.300 | if we put someone to a third of an atmosphere,

00:28:47.860 | so for mechanical counterpressure now,

00:28:49.500 | so one way is to do it with a balloon,

00:28:51.420 | and that's what we currently have,

00:28:52.860 | or you can apply the pressure directly to the skin.

00:28:55.080 | I only have to give you a third of an atmosphere.

00:28:58.660 | Right now, you and I are very happy in one atmosphere,

00:29:00.540 | so if I put that pressure, a third of an atmosphere on you,

00:29:04.460 | I just have to do it consistently

00:29:06.500 | across all of your body and your limbs,

00:29:08.580 | and it'll be a gas pressurized helmet.

00:29:10.740 | Doesn't make sense to shrink wrap the head.

00:29:13.180 | See the blue mangrove, that's a great act,

00:29:15.820 | but we don't need to, there's no benefits

00:29:17.660 | of shrink wrapping the head.

00:29:19.020 | You put a gas pressurized helmet,

00:29:21.120 | because the helmet then, the future of suits,

00:29:23.340 | you asked me about, the helmet just becomes

00:29:25.020 | your information portal.

00:29:26.660 | So it will have augmented reality,

00:29:28.420 | it'll have all the information you need.

00:29:30.380 | Should have the maps that I need.

00:29:32.060 | I'm on the moon, okay, well hey, smart helmet,

00:29:34.780 | then show me the map, show me the topography.

00:29:36.940 | Hopefully it has the lab embedded too.

00:29:38.580 | If it has really great cameras,

00:29:40.180 | maybe I can see with that regolith.

00:29:41.620 | That's just lunar dust and dirt.

00:29:43.060 | What's that made out of?

00:29:44.140 | We talked about the water.

00:29:45.460 | So the helmet then really becomes this information portal,

00:29:48.540 | is how I see kind of the IT architecture,

00:29:50.980 | the helmet is really allowing me to use

00:29:55.200 | all of my modalities of an explorer that I'd like to.

00:29:58.520 | So cameras, voiceover, images.

00:30:01.040 | If it were really good, it would kind of be,

00:30:02.760 | would have lab capabilities as well.

00:30:05.240 | - Okay, so the pressure comes from the body,

00:30:07.200 | comes from the mechanical pressure, which is fascinating.

00:30:10.480 | Now what aspect, when I look at bio-suit,

00:30:12.880 | just the suits you're working on,

00:30:14.480 | sort of from a fashion perspective, they look awesome.

00:30:17.680 | Is that a small part of it too?

00:30:20.720 | - Oh, absolutely, 'cause the teams that we work with,

00:30:23.420 | of course I'm an engineer, there's engineering students,

00:30:25.460 | there's design students, there's architects.

00:30:27.260 | So it really is a very much a multidisciplinary team.

00:30:29.820 | So sure, colors, aesthetics, materials,

00:30:33.420 | all those things we pay attention to.

00:30:34.940 | So it's not just an engineering solution.

00:30:36.920 | It really is a much more holistic, it's a suit.

00:30:39.920 | It's a suit, you're dressed in a suit now.

00:30:42.420 | It's a form fitting.

00:30:43.700 | So we really have to pay attention to all those things.

00:30:46.260 | And so that's the design team that we work with.

00:30:49.460 | And my partner, Gaytroti, we're partners in this

00:30:52.180 | in terms of he comes from an architecture,

00:30:54.460 | industrial design background.

00:30:56.100 | So bringing those skills to bear as well.

00:30:58.100 | We team up with industry folks who are in

00:31:01.140 | athletic performance and designers.

00:31:03.020 | So it really is a team that brings

00:31:04.900 | all those skills together.

00:31:06.300 | - So what role does the space suit play

00:31:08.940 | in our long-term staying in Mars?

00:31:11.300 | Sort of exploring the, doing all the work

00:31:13.900 | that astronauts do, but also perhaps civilians one day,

00:31:17.440 | almost like taking steps towards colonization of Mars.

00:31:20.120 | What role does a space suit play there?

00:31:21.740 | - So you always need a life support system,

00:31:24.380 | pressurized habitat, and I like to say,

00:31:26.100 | we're not going to Mars to sit around.

00:31:28.460 | So you need a suit.

00:31:30.140 | Even if you land and have the lander,

00:31:32.180 | you're not going there to stay inside.

00:31:33.740 | That's for darn sure.

00:31:34.580 | We're going there to search for the evidence of life.

00:31:36.220 | That's why we're going to Mars.

00:31:37.380 | So you need a lot of mobility.

00:31:39.060 | So for me, the suit is the best way

00:31:41.380 | to give the human mobility.

00:31:42.900 | We're always still gonna need rovers.

00:31:44.540 | We're gonna need robots.

00:31:45.700 | So for me, exploration is always a suite of explorers.

00:31:49.420 | Some people are gonna,

00:31:50.260 | some of the suite of explorers are humans,

00:31:51.840 | but many are gonna be robots, smart systems,

00:31:55.040 | things like that.

00:31:55.880 | But I look at it as kind of all those capabilities together

00:31:58.500 | make the best exploration team.

00:32:00.140 | - So let me ask, I love artificial intelligence,

00:32:03.780 | and I've also saw that you've enjoyed the movie

00:32:07.620 | Space Odyssey, 2001, a Space Odyssey.

00:32:10.120 | Let me ask the question about how 9000,

00:32:12.540 | that makes a few decisions there

00:32:14.080 | that prioritizes the mission over the astronauts.

00:32:17.460 | Do you think from a high philosophical question,

00:32:20.340 | do you think Hal did the right thing

00:32:22.740 | of prioritizing the mission?

00:32:24.700 | - I think our artificial intelligence

00:32:26.860 | will be smarter in the future.

00:32:28.740 | For a Mars mission, it's a great question,

00:32:30.220 | that is the reality of it.

00:32:31.660 | For a Mars mission, we need fully autonomous systems.

00:32:34.400 | We will get humans, but they have to be fully autonomous.

00:32:37.700 | And that's a really important,

00:32:38.780 | that's the most important concept

00:32:41.060 | because there's not gonna be a mission control on Earth.

00:32:44.060 | You know, 20 minute time lag,

00:32:47.700 | there's just no way you're gonna control it.

00:32:48.900 | So fully autonomous,

00:32:49.940 | so people have to be fully autonomous as well,

00:32:51.700 | but all of our systems as well.

00:32:53.260 | And so that's the big design challenge.

00:32:55.420 | So that's why we test them out on the moon as well.

00:32:57.340 | When we have a, okay, a few second,

00:32:58.780 | you know, a three second time lag, you can test them out.

00:33:00.860 | We have to really get autonomous exploration down.

00:33:05.380 | You asked me earlier about Magellan.

00:33:06.900 | Magellan and his crew, they left, right?

00:33:09.120 | They were autonomous.

00:33:11.220 | You know, they were autonomous.

00:33:12.180 | They left and they were on their own

00:33:14.020 | to figure out that mission.

00:33:15.100 | Then when they hit land, they have resources,

00:33:16.900 | that's in-situ resource utilization

00:33:19.000 | and everything else they brought with them.

00:33:21.060 | So we have to, I think, have that mindset for exploration.

00:33:23.300 | Again, back to the moon, it's more of the testing ground,

00:33:25.300 | the proving ground with technologies.

00:33:27.220 | But when we get to Mars, it's so far away

00:33:29.620 | that we need fully autonomous systems.

00:33:31.620 | So I think that's where, again, AI and autonomy come in,

00:33:35.400 | a really robust autonomy,

00:33:36.700 | things that we don't have today yet.

00:33:38.500 | So they're on the drawing boards,

00:33:39.900 | but we really need to test them out

00:33:41.340 | 'cause that's what we're up against.

00:33:43.300 | - So fully autonomous, meaning self-sufficient,

00:33:45.780 | there's still a role for the human in that picture.

00:33:48.340 | Do you think there'll be a time when AI systems,

00:33:52.500 | beyond doing fully autonomous flight control,

00:33:55.380 | will also help or even take mission decisions like Hal did?

00:33:59.780 | - That's interesting.

00:34:00.620 | It depends.

00:34:01.460 | I mean, they're gonna be designed by humans.

00:34:02.700 | I think, as you mentioned, humans are always in the loop.

00:34:04.580 | I mean, we might be on Earth, we might be in orbit on Mars,

00:34:06.920 | maybe the systems, the landers down on the surface of Mars.

00:34:10.060 | But I think we're gonna get, we are right now,

00:34:13.440 | just on Earth-based systems, AI systems

00:34:16.120 | that are incredibly capable and training them

00:34:20.820 | with all the data that we have now,

00:34:22.660 | petabytes of data from Earth.

00:34:24.760 | What I care about for the autonomy and AI right now,

00:34:27.260 | how we're applying it in research,

00:34:29.020 | is to look at Earth and look at climate systems.

00:34:31.140 | I mean, that's the, it's not for Mars to me today.

00:34:33.460 | Right now, AI is to eyes on Earth,

00:34:35.460 | all of our space data, compiling that, using supercomputers,

00:34:39.620 | because we have so much information and knowledge

00:34:41.860 | and we need to get that into people's hands.

00:34:43.340 | We need, first there's the educational issue with climate

00:34:46.100 | and our changing climate.

00:34:47.460 | Then we need to change human behavior.

00:34:49.820 | That's the biggie.

00:34:50.660 | So this next decade, it's urgent we take care

00:34:53.540 | of our own spaceship, which is Spaceship Earth.

00:34:55.620 | So that's, to me, where my focus has been for AI systems,

00:35:00.360 | using whatever's out there, kind of imagining also

00:35:03.780 | what the future situation is,

00:35:05.400 | what's the satellite imagery of Earth of the future.

00:35:07.820 | If you can hold that in your hands,

00:35:09.500 | that's gonna be really powerful.

00:35:10.700 | Will that help people accelerate positive change for Earth

00:35:14.180 | and for us to live in balance with Earth?

00:35:15.620 | I hope so.

00:35:16.460 | And kind of start with the ocean systems.

00:35:17.980 | So oceans to land to air and kind of using

00:35:20.480 | all the space data.

00:35:21.340 | So it's a huge role for artificial intelligence

00:35:24.140 | to help us analyze, I call it curating the data,

00:35:27.180 | using the data.

00:35:28.420 | It has a lot to do with visualizations as well.

00:35:31.060 | - Do you think, and a weird, dark question,

00:35:34.220 | do you think human species can survive

00:35:36.900 | if we don't become interplanetary?

00:35:39.220 | In the next century or a couple of centuries?

00:35:43.460 | - Absolutely we can survive.

00:35:45.900 | I don't think Mars is option B, actually.

00:35:48.420 | So I think it's all about saving Spaceship Earth

00:35:51.180 | and humanity.

00:35:52.300 | I simply put, Earth doesn't need us,

00:35:55.220 | but we really need Earth.

00:35:57.020 | All of humanity needs to live in balance with Earth,

00:35:59.980 | because Earth has been here a long time

00:36:01.220 | before we ever showed up,

00:36:02.120 | and it'll be here a long time after.

00:36:03.940 | It's just a matter of how do we wanna live

00:36:06.020 | with all living beings, much more in balance,

00:36:09.260 | because we need to take care of the Earth,

00:36:11.260 | and right now we're not.

00:36:12.740 | So that's the urgency, and I think it is the next decade

00:36:15.780 | to try to live much more sustainably,

00:36:18.660 | live more in balance with Earth.

00:36:19.940 | I think the human species has a great,

00:36:21.380 | long, optimistic future, but we have to act.

00:36:24.740 | It's urgent.

00:36:25.580 | We have to change behavior.

00:36:27.220 | We have to realize that we're all in this together.

00:36:30.220 | It's just one blue bubble.

00:36:31.820 | It's for humanity.

00:36:33.180 | So when I think people realize that we're all astronauts,

00:36:35.940 | that's the great news is everyone's gonna be an astronaut.

00:36:37.900 | - Spaceship Earth.

00:36:38.740 | - We're all astronauts on Spaceship Earth,

00:36:41.180 | and this is our mission.

00:36:42.500 | This is our mission to take care of the planet.

00:36:45.060 | - And yet, as we explore out from our Spaceship Earth here,

00:36:50.060 | out into space, what do you think the next 50, 100,

00:36:54.540 | 200 years look like for space exploration?

00:36:56.900 | - I'm optimistic, so I think that we'll have lots of people,

00:37:01.900 | thousands of people, tens of thousands of people,

00:37:03.460 | who knows, maybe millions, in low-Earth orbit.

00:37:05.200 | That's just a place that we're gonna have people,

00:37:06.940 | and actually some industry, manufacturing, things like that.

00:37:11.020 | That dream, I hope we realize, getting people to the moon,

00:37:13.560 | so I can envision a lot of people on the moon.

00:37:15.900 | Again, it's a great place to go.

00:37:17.100 | - Living or visiting?

00:37:18.980 | - Probably visiting and living, if you want to.

00:37:21.860 | Most people are gonna wanna come back to Earth, I think,

00:37:23.860 | but there'll be some people, and it's not such a long--

00:37:25.620 | - Good view.

00:37:26.460 | - It's a good view, it's a beautiful view.

00:37:28.020 | So I think that we will have many people

00:37:30.700 | on the moon as well.

00:37:31.540 | I think there'll be some people, you told me,

00:37:33.340 | wow, hundreds of years out.

00:37:34.900 | So we'll have people, we'll be interplanetary, for sure,

00:37:37.340 | as a species.

00:37:38.740 | So I think we'll be on the moon, I think we'll be on Mars.

00:37:41.660 | Venus, no, it's already a runaway greenhouse gas,

00:37:43.780 | so not a great place for science.

00:37:46.140 | Jupiter, all within the solar system,

00:37:47.860 | great place for all of our scientific probes.

00:37:50.080 | I don't see so much in terms of human physical presence.

00:37:53.260 | We'll be exploring them.

00:37:54.220 | So we live in our minds there,

00:37:55.620 | because we're exploring them and going on those journeys.

00:37:59.260 | But it's really our choice, in terms of our decisions,

00:38:03.980 | of how in balance we're gonna be living here on the Earth.

00:38:07.300 | - When do you think the first woman,

00:38:09.420 | first person will step on Mars?

00:38:12.020 | - Step on Mars?

00:38:12.860 | Well, I'm gonna do everything I can

00:38:14.540 | to make sure it happens in the 2030s.

00:38:16.380 | - 2030s.

00:38:17.220 | - Say mid-20, you know, 2025, 2035, we'll be on the moon.

00:38:22.220 | And hopefully with more people than us.

00:38:24.280 | But first with a few astronauts,

00:38:25.740 | it'll be global, international folks.

00:38:27.620 | But we really need those 10 years, I think, on the moon.

00:38:29.900 | And then so by later in the decade, in the 2030s,

00:38:33.500 | we'll have all the technology and know-how

00:38:35.420 | and we need to get that human mission to Mars done.

00:38:38.420 | - We'll live in exciting times.

00:38:39.780 | And, Deva, thank you so much for leading the way.

00:38:41.820 | And thank you for talking today.

00:38:42.820 | I really appreciate it. - Thank you, my pleasure.

00:38:45.220 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation.

00:38:47.020 | And thank you to our presenting sponsor, Cash App.

00:38:50.420 | Remember to use code LEXPODCAST

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00:38:56.440 | You'll get 10 bucks, $10, and $10 will go to FIRST,

00:39:00.620 | a STEM education nonprofit

00:39:02.460 | that inspires hundreds of thousands of young minds

00:39:05.860 | to learn and to dream of engineering our future.

00:39:09.900 | Thank you and hope to see you next time.

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00:39:27.660 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Dava Newman: Space Exploration, Space Suits, and Life on Mars | Lex Fridman Podcast #51

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