E149: Hamas terror attacks in Israel: fallout, reaction, next steps

00:00:00.000 | Alright, everybody, welcome to Episode 149 of the all in

00:00:04.420 | podcast with me again, David Sachs and Chamath Palihapitiya

00:00:08.820 | David Freeburg couldn't make it this week, we're going to carry

00:00:10.780 | on without him. And it's a difficult week. So just a quick

00:00:14.980 | opening statement from me about this episode, like all of you

00:00:18.180 | were devastated by the terrorist attacks that occurred in Israel

00:00:21.180 | on Saturday. And I just want to start the discussion here with

00:00:24.580 | two important housekeeping notes. First, this is obviously

00:00:28.100 | a very dynamic situation. And we're dealing with the fog of

00:00:31.540 | war quite literally. So we're going to do our best to make

00:00:34.020 | sense of what's happening. But things will change between when

00:00:37.340 | we tape this episode on Thursday, and you choose to

00:00:40.780 | listen to it in all likelihood at some point over the weekend.

00:00:43.300 | Second, there are going to be some folks out there who claim

00:00:46.580 | quite correctly that we are not the experts on this topic. And

00:00:50.300 | thus, we shouldn't chime in with our opinions. On the other side,

00:00:53.940 | the all in community has told me explicitly, they want to hear us

00:00:57.460 | discuss what happened and they want a sense of normalcy. As one

00:01:01.540 | loyal listener explained to me last night at a dinner, the fact

00:01:04.340 | that the four of you can debate hard topics, listen to each

00:01:06.640 | other, and in the end, have a deeper understanding of the

00:01:08.860 | world gives me hope every week. That's why I listen. So we'll do

00:01:12.620 | what we do here every week. We'll have the hard discussion.

00:01:15.060 | We'll listen to each other deeply, hopefully. And we'll try

00:01:17.860 | to understand the world and each other just a little bit more.

00:01:20.860 | And that's worth it, at least to me and apparently many of you.

00:01:24.180 | So with those two quick disclaimers, gentlemen, anything

00:01:27.500 | you want to say up front before I recap where we are five days

00:01:31.860 | into this senseless brutality.

00:01:34.300 | I think that was a pretty good intro, Jason. I mean, you're

00:01:37.460 | right, we're taping on Thursday, late morning Pacific time, by

00:01:42.380 | the time this drops, it'll be Friday. And so a lot could have

00:01:45.660 | happened. Also, it's true that the Middle East in general, and

00:01:48.740 | this topic in particular is hugely complicated, we will be

00:01:52.020 | accused of not being experts. But at the same time, the

00:01:55.060 | audience seems to appreciate our opinions as consumers of

00:01:58.820 | information who are trying to make sense of the world. Yeah.

00:02:01.780 | So that's all we can really do.

00:02:03.100 | Right. And conversations, I think, are how we make progress.

00:02:07.500 | Any thoughts before we get started here? And I'll recap

00:02:10.860 | what's occurred to my any, any opening thoughts before we get

00:02:15.140 | into the details here,

00:02:16.020 | on behalf of somebody who

00:02:20.220 | worked in Israel, have a lot of friends there spent a lot of

00:02:23.980 | time there. It's really just a terrible, devastating situation.

00:02:29.300 | I've really tried to stay off of social media, just because it's

00:02:35.420 | allowed me to kind of think a little bit more logically, it's

00:02:40.620 | fast and furious right now, I think on x. And it's just a lot

00:02:46.140 | of people trying to make sure that their version of the truth

00:02:49.340 | is amplified over every other version of the truth, which I

00:02:51.500 | think is like a is the point in the cycle where you just have to

00:02:54.940 | almost unplug from the matrix a little bit. And find a few

00:03:01.340 | places that seem to be just telling things in an even

00:03:04.860 | handed way, which I also find on x. And then just kind of

00:03:09.420 | reconstruct what happened, why it happened. What do we do from

00:03:13.300 | here? I don't know. I don't know. I have a lot of thoughts

00:03:15.180 | on a lot of the peripheral issues. But the core issue is

00:03:18.660 | just, I'm just stunned that this happened. I don't even know

00:03:22.500 | how this is possible that this happened.

00:03:23.780 | Like Jamath, I'm not trying to get too weighed in too deeply

00:03:28.660 | into the tweets. But

00:03:30.220 | I did notice you, by the way, have stopped tweeting. You've

00:03:34.180 | done a couple of retweets, but you pause this week, a lot of

00:03:37.020 | your tweeting.

00:03:37.540 | Yeah, I mean, I think you're processing time to listen and

00:03:43.100 | learn and process what's going on. Right? That's not a great

00:03:46.380 | time to be having hot takes. I have posted a few things. First

00:03:49.460 | of all, Jason, you've made the analogy to 9/11 being in New

00:03:53.020 | York right now. I think that that is the comparison that's

00:03:55.580 | been made is that this is Israel's 9/11. I think that's a

00:03:58.860 | justifiable comparison in two respects. One is this was a

00:04:03.660 | terrorist attack. It was an atrocity. This was a massacre of

00:04:07.380 | civilians. Even if you're somebody who believes in the

00:04:11.140 | Palestinian cause, you should be able to recognize that these

00:04:13.540 | were war crimes. Yeah, the videos are coming out, the

00:04:16.860 | stories are coming out. In particular, the rounding up and

00:04:20.900 | slaughter of 260 attendees at a music festival was really beyond

00:04:25.980 | the pale. They're clearing some of these farming villages and so

00:04:30.100 | forth. And finding the bodies, the young families basically

00:04:34.060 | killed. Anyway, we don't need to repeat all of the details here.

00:04:39.220 | But this was, I think, an attack on civilians that is

00:04:44.500 | reminiscent of 9/11 and has affected the Israeli people in

00:04:49.220 | a similar way. I think the other analogy to 9/11 that's worth

00:04:53.660 | discussing is the reaction to this or what Israel's going to

00:04:57.340 | do and what the reaction is by US political figures. You heard

00:05:02.100 | people like Nikki Haley basically saying to Netanyahu

00:05:07.780 | finish them. It wasn't exactly clear whether she was just

00:05:10.900 | talking about Hamas or the whole Gaza Strip or maybe Iran. And

00:05:15.340 | then if there was any ambiguity about that, you just had Lindsey

00:05:18.020 | Graham come out and say level the place, meaning referring to

00:05:21.220 | all of Gaza. Yeah, it's crazy. I'm very concerned that one of

00:05:25.980 | the purposes here of the terrorists was to provoke an

00:05:30.660 | overreaction like the US engaged in after 9/11. Remember, we were

00:05:36.740 | viciously attacked, we were wounded. We then lashed out and

00:05:40.900 | plunged into two decades of wars in the Middle East. What was the

00:05:44.020 | result of that? We lost thousands of lives or own

00:05:46.260 | soldiers, we spent trillions of our treasure. Millions of people

00:05:50.620 | on the other side died. And at the end of the day, we only

00:05:55.100 | changed the geopolitical map of the Middle East in ways that

00:05:57.340 | were ultimately unfavorable for us. Iran became a more powerful

00:06:01.420 | country. The region became destabilized. And we squandered

00:06:06.500 | the sympathy that the United States had and its moral

00:06:08.940 | position that we had after 9/11 in the eyes of much of the

00:06:12.140 | world. So the US I think, fell for the trap that I think bin

00:06:17.700 | Laden laid, which was to provoke us into an overreaction. I think

00:06:20.740 | that is one of the goals of terrorists is to create such an

00:06:23.700 | outrage, such a provocation that they will bait the other side

00:06:26.980 | into an overreaction. I'm quite concerned that could happen

00:06:30.420 | here. I think that our US leaders should be, as friends of

00:06:34.820 | Israel's should be counseling a cool headed response. I think

00:06:39.940 | braying for war with Iran or suggesting that the entire Gaza

00:06:44.620 | Strip should be leveled would be doing exactly the wrong thing.

00:06:47.820 | It would ignite the Arab street.

00:06:50.140 | And to your point, at least, perhaps that was the goal here.

00:06:54.220 | And we're trying to figure out what is the goal of this attack

00:06:57.300 | that was planned for years. And perhaps that was the goal is to

00:07:00.860 | try to take all the hard for peace and progress that has been

00:07:04.660 | made in that process over the over the last couple years,

00:07:08.060 | Abraham Accords, and you know, stability, and then just, you

00:07:13.380 | know, really create a full scale escalation.

00:07:16.020 | I think that's right. I mean, look, I think Israel is within

00:07:18.620 | its rights to dismantle and destroy Hamas. Hamas is an

00:07:22.060 | organization that in its charter has said they're committed to

00:07:24.860 | the destruction of Israel, they've now committed this

00:07:28.780 | atrocity. Again, it was, if they had just limited their attack on

00:07:33.340 | uniformed Israeli officers and military, I think that would be

00:07:37.260 | one thing, but they went much further than that. The vast

00:07:40.140 | majority of the casualties here are civilians who were murdered

00:07:43.980 | in atrocious ways. So I think there are terrorist organization

00:07:47.380 | in Israel as well within its rights to destroy them. However,

00:07:50.300 | the question is how you do that. Yeah, like, a lot of terrorist

00:07:54.460 | organizations, Hamas can kind of melt away into the population

00:07:58.300 | of Gaza, they've apparently have these elaborate tunnel networks,

00:08:01.980 | they've got bunkers. So it's not clear that you can destroy them

00:08:06.020 | from the sky through bombing. Those kinds of bombs would lead

00:08:11.220 | to a lot of civilian casualties, which will inflame the situation

00:08:14.980 | and turn a world opinion against Israel. At the same time, if

00:08:19.380 | they go in with ground forces, that seems like a really tough

00:08:23.100 | situation as well, because Hamas is waiting for them, and they

00:08:26.740 | will have to fight a guerrilla war in a very tightly packed,

00:08:30.380 | dense urban area where Hamas likely has anti tank weapons,

00:08:34.700 | weapons that we've seen that have been so effective against

00:08:37.180 | armored vehicles in Ukraine. Again, if the fighting gets too

00:08:42.340 | hot, they can disappear into these tunnel networks, there's

00:08:44.300 | going to be IDs everywhere, it's going to be a very, very tough

00:08:47.860 | fight for the Israelis. So I think they're in an incredibly

00:08:51.660 | tough spot. I'm not quite sure what the right reaction is for

00:08:57.020 | them. But I do think that if the reaction is this, let's call it

00:09:02.620 | the Lindsey Graham level the place reaction, I think that

00:09:06.100 | could set off a much wider regional war or even a world

00:09:09.980 | war. And that is not something that's ultimately going to help

00:09:13.020 | Israel. And I hope that our leaders are wise enough to be

00:09:16.220 | counseling against that.

00:09:17.180 | I get the sense that they're not going to go that hard. And if

00:09:21.700 | you look at the American response to 911, you know, going

00:09:24.700 | into Afghanistan and dismantling al Qaeda, a noble mission, and

00:09:27.940 | we didn't have any more terrorist attacks on America or

00:09:30.500 | very, we thwarted most terrorist attacks, there were attempts,

00:09:33.700 | actually. And our intelligence was very strong over the last

00:09:37.820 | couple of decades. And we haven't had another one of those.

00:09:40.340 | But you're right going into Iraq. And then, you know, what

00:09:43.140 | was the last decade about being in Afghanistan,

00:09:45.780 | we went into Iraq, we went into Syria, went into Libya, we

00:09:48.580 | stayed in Afghanistan for 20 years, it should have been a

00:09:50.900 | quick surgical strike to take out al Qaeda and their Taliban

00:09:55.020 | hosts, and then we should have gotten out.

00:09:56.660 | And even that is incredibly difficult as a mission, as

00:09:59.500 | you're pointing out here, you know, Hamas can just fade away

00:10:02.700 | into the Gaza Strip, and into into Palestine. And, you know,

00:10:06.740 | who knows, Shema, I guess where we're at right now is trying to

00:10:10.820 | make sense of why this happened, and what the next couple of

00:10:14.940 | weeks might look like, right. And so your thoughts.

00:10:18.940 | I think Israel has every right to defend itself, and they

00:10:22.060 | should eradicate Hamas. This is not like we woke up and found

00:10:27.380 | out that they were a terrorist organization yesterday, or on

00:10:30.340 | Sunday. We've known this for years, they've been labeled as

00:10:33.580 | such. People have been monitoring their money flows for

00:10:36.900 | years, we know where they were funded. But the thing to keep in

00:10:41.020 | mind is that those 30,000 Hamas terrorists have also been

00:10:45.540 | keeping 2.2 Palestinians hostage for the last 20 years. And of

00:10:51.820 | the 2.2 million Palestinians in Gaza, half are kids. And so

00:10:57.660 | David's right, the thing to keep in mind is, as barbaric as what

00:11:02.980 | happened to the Israelis were Israel, in its actions, could

00:11:10.580 | cause tremendous civilian casualties, which will just

00:11:13.500 | further inflame the ability to find a long term peace in the

00:11:17.460 | Middle East. That's really tragic. And that's probably part

00:11:21.260 | of Hamas is kind of sadistic calculus, which is they they

00:11:25.580 | probably expected this kind of a reaction, and they probably

00:11:28.700 | don't care at the end of the day. So it's important to

00:11:32.420 | separate Palestinians from Hamas, but I understand and I

00:11:37.980 | know where Israel is coming from, because we face the same

00:11:40.860 | reaction after 911. The question that I have is, Israel is the

00:11:46.380 | most sophisticated military and intelligence organization in the

00:11:52.700 | world. And the reason is because when everybody talks about

00:11:56.340 | priorities, Israel only really has one priority, which is to

00:12:01.420 | safeguard the Israeli people survive. And they've been

00:12:05.620 | essentially in a conflict zone with this sort of Damocles

00:12:10.940 | since the founding of Israel. So there are three organizations

00:12:17.580 | that really have to figure out what happened here, right?

00:12:22.220 | There's Mossad, which is the Foreign Intelligence Service of

00:12:26.220 | Israel. There's Shin Bet, which is the domestic security

00:12:29.820 | apparatus. And there's a man which is the military

00:12:32.980 | intelligence group. And it's like, how did this happen?

00:12:36.420 | Because this should have been priority 123 and four, right?

00:12:39.860 | And it has always been for them. Other countries, the

00:12:43.740 | safeguarding of their people is not necessarily always number

00:12:46.300 | one, right? And then things happen. And then you reprioritize

00:12:49.020 | it. In many ways, that's what happened in 911. I guess at some

00:12:51.860 | level in America.

00:12:52.700 | I mean, we had all the signal before that. And when we did the

00:12:56.460 | 911 commission, and we found out they were going to flight

00:12:59.340 | school here, you know, and it was pretty clear that it was an

00:13:03.980 | intelligence failure for America.

00:13:06.060 | Those are the two big thoughts that I have, which is there's

00:13:08.700 | just going to be so many civilian casualties, what will

00:13:11.060 | that do to actually, I think that that has a huge negative

00:13:14.820 | impact on the long term chances of peace, because then radicals

00:13:19.180 | will use that information to further or to attempt to

00:13:21.860 | radicalize the next generation of Palestinians or other Arabs

00:13:26.380 | or whatever. And so I worry that the progress that was made in

00:13:30.540 | the Abraham Accords, all the normalization goes off the

00:13:35.420 | rails. And that's tragic, because most of these people,

00:13:38.500 | the overwhelming majority of all people everywhere, they just

00:13:41.980 | want peace, they just want to live a peace and life, take care

00:13:45.540 | of their family, raise their kids. So that's really tragic.

00:13:48.900 | But then the other the other part of my mind is like, how

00:13:52.660 | could this have fallen through the cracks? And, and why were

00:13:57.420 | the most sophisticated intelligence organizations caught

00:14:00.020 | flat footed here?

00:14:02.300 | Yeah, it is going to be a lot of information that will come out

00:14:06.500 | over time and lessons. And by the way, the reason why that

00:14:09.060 | second piece is important is not to point the finger at anybody.

00:14:13.020 | But it's the de escalate because of what sacks it earlier, which

00:14:16.260 | is that when people who can articulately gird for war, are

00:14:20.620 | given the bully pulpit, and you see American politicians now

00:14:24.500 | braying and girding for war. I don't think they fully recognize

00:14:29.540 | the consequences of that they're not doing a full accounting of

00:14:32.540 | what America has lived through in the last quarter century. And

00:14:36.740 | now to induce other countries to try to do the same, I think is

00:14:41.820 | so dangerous. And so if we can understand where these cracks

00:14:46.140 | are, at least we can de escalate those specific individuals

00:14:49.940 | attempts to escalate. And if we don't do that, we're going to

00:14:53.180 | find ourselves in a really complicated war. And I don't

00:14:59.020 | think anybody wants that nobody wins.

00:15:01.220 | Nobody wins. Yeah. I mean, at this point, really, the

00:15:05.020 | returning of the hostages seems to be the most important, you

00:15:08.340 | know, high order mission that has to occur. After that,

00:15:12.780 | clearly dismantling Hamas and this terror apparatus. But you

00:15:18.580 | know, having started to spend some time, you know, in the

00:15:21.100 | region and talking to people over there. And again, I'm no

00:15:24.700 | expert, but I have been talking to people who've been working on

00:15:27.020 | this, you know, got people who've been working on trying to

00:15:29.180 | create peace in the region for their entire lives. And this is

00:15:33.020 | definitely a setback. But I'm an optimist. And I actually think

00:15:36.820 | that in some ways, this is going to create a climate where people

00:15:41.260 | are going to really fight to try to resolve the situation, or at

00:15:45.460 | least contain the situation, to state solution, the Abraham

00:15:49.100 | Accords, and I think they're this is going to renew people's

00:15:53.340 | commitment to peace in the region. And I know many, many of

00:15:57.540 | the countries over there are really aghast at what happened.

00:16:00.540 | And they've been working really hard to try to normalize

00:16:02.860 | relations there and create peace and prosperity and commerce. And

00:16:07.540 | you know, between the different countries in the region. So this

00:16:11.140 | is just heartbreaking for the loss of human life, and how that

00:16:15.420 | occurred. And then it's also heartbreaking for the peace

00:16:17.420 | process and all this progress that's been made recently. And

00:16:20.740 | so I think it's, you know, the, there's no silver lining here.

00:16:25.340 | But I do think this will, maybe the good people of the world

00:16:29.740 | will recommit to trying to resolve this issue and create

00:16:35.220 | peace in the region. That's my hope. I know it's simplistic.

00:16:37.620 | And again, no expert, but that's my hope. And I've been spending

00:16:42.060 | time over there and learning a lot more about the region. These

00:16:44.380 | these are multi generational issues that are going to take

00:16:47.860 | generations to figure out. And it's, it's two steps forward,

00:16:51.380 | one step back, obviously. But man, for the politicians and the

00:16:55.180 | people negotiating this piece, and they work so tirelessly on

00:16:59.220 | this for their whole lives. You know, keep at it. I mean, that's

00:17:04.860 | all we can do, right?

00:17:05.740 | I mean, Jason, I think disrupting the process that was

00:17:08.780 | happening towards normalization of relations between Israel and

00:17:12.340 | Arab states, specifically the Gulf monarchies, I think was one

00:17:16.020 | of the objectives here. Yeah. So I mean, Israel's contention for

00:17:19.020 | a long time is they want to negotiate peace, they want to

00:17:22.100 | negotiate, but they don't have a partner to negotiate with.

00:17:24.860 | Whether you believe that or not, that was that was their

00:17:28.020 | position. And with the Abraham Accords, we saw that they

00:17:31.260 | started to be able to negotiate again, normalization with three

00:17:37.340 | Gulf Arab states, without involving the Palestinians. And

00:17:43.460 | it looked like that issue was being put to one side, and that

00:17:47.820 | they were kind of going around it. And the idea being, look, if

00:17:50.380 | you won't negotiate with us, then we'll figure out a way to

00:17:53.340 | move forward without you. The big news that, you know, it's

00:17:56.140 | been going on in the last few months is that supposedly

00:17:58.660 | Israel, and Saudi Arabia were close to working out some sort

00:18:04.540 | of normalization. And I think that process has been put on

00:18:08.020 | hold until I think this has been dealt with. And so I think one

00:18:12.100 | of the takeaways here is the idea that you're going to be

00:18:14.460 | able to get to Middle East peace without resolving this

00:18:18.900 | Palestinian question. I think this is basically a return to

00:18:23.020 | the reality that that issue is simply going to have to be dealt

00:18:25.380 | with. I don't think we're going to get to a larger deal in the

00:18:30.100 | Middle East, we're not going to resolve all these problems until

00:18:32.780 | this long festering problem of the treatment of the

00:18:36.060 | Palestinians is is dealt with. I think you're right that the two

00:18:41.020 | state solution is the only possible solution that makes

00:18:46.540 | sense. I mean, what's the alternative? A one state

00:18:50.300 | solution means that either it's run by the Israelis, but

00:18:57.020 | presiding over hostile Palestinian minority that may

00:19:01.700 | eventually one day be the majority and you're forced into

00:19:04.700 | some sort of apartheid state, or the Palestinians are running

00:19:08.580 | that one party state and it means that the Jews have been

00:19:11.020 | pushed into the sea. So neither one of those solutions looks

00:19:14.220 | very good. So that leaves you with a two state solution,

00:19:18.540 | however hard, however impossible it seems to negotiate that. It's

00:19:22.900 | the only option.

00:19:23.900 | Yeah, it's the only option. And it's a real opportunity. I think

00:19:27.260 | the my hope is that instead of pushing Saudi away, this

00:19:32.820 | actually pulls Saudi closer and says, Okay, this is a chance to

00:19:35.820 | really normalize the global perception of the Middle East.

00:19:40.100 | Because if there can be a way for Israel and Saudi to build a

00:19:44.100 | bridge here, I have a lot of hope that there can be a lot of

00:19:46.700 | stability and a lot of the good work. I mean, again, like, man,

00:19:50.620 | as a democrat who has been left homeless, who is now definitely

00:19:59.660 | in the center, but probably leaning increasingly right, I'm

00:20:03.500 | left yet again with an appreciation, despite the

00:20:07.220 | messenger of the message of the Trump administration, because

00:20:10.100 | what those guys did was pretty incredible. In hindsight, these

00:20:15.460 | Abraham Accords, the Accords with Israel and the GCC, the

00:20:18.820 | almost accord between Israel and Saudi. To really be able to

00:20:25.220 | like, find a long lasting peace is just a real example for the

00:20:31.260 | world. And those guys did a lot of really good work. And it's a

00:20:36.500 | miracle, actually, when you when you look at it, what they did,

00:20:38.780 | you know, despite the fact, listen, I'm no fan of Trump. And

00:20:42.660 | I am to a homeless. But if you want to objectively look at what

00:20:46.460 | they did, that was hard work. It was you have to, you have to.

00:20:50.260 | And in fact, this is a moment where you have to start to re

00:20:53.380 | underwrite like, is your not your Jason, but I'm just saying

00:20:57.020 | collectively is one's Trump derangement syndrome, causing

00:21:01.060 | more damage than anything that Trump could have actually done.

00:21:03.980 | And I think the answer is yes, because like, it's now causing

00:21:07.860 | us to not see that good work and then embrace and extended so much

00:21:13.500 | of the work that happened in that administration. Turns out

00:21:18.020 | to have been right. And that's what's so frustrating for me.

00:21:21.900 | The work on the border wall, we didn't like the messenger. So we

00:21:25.900 | killed the message. Turned out it was right. issuing long term

00:21:29.740 | debt to refinance when rates were at zero, we didn't like the

00:21:32.620 | messenger. So we killed the message. A structural piece in

00:21:37.180 | the Middle East, we didn't like the messenger. So we killed the

00:21:39.860 | message. When are we going to stop shooting ourselves in the

00:21:43.020 | foot? And when are we going to actually see and take the time

00:21:46.460 | to look past who is saying things and actually listen to

00:21:50.780 | them word for word. I'll give you an example. I started to

00:21:54.860 | tweet three links a day over the past three days. And the only

00:21:59.660 | reason I did that was I thought things were so hyper contentious

00:22:03.340 | and hyper partisan that I just wanted to show a few sides,

00:22:07.260 | right. And one day I found a couple links, two of which one

00:22:11.780 | was from Jonathan Greenblatt of the ADL, who I thought had a

00:22:15.620 | very powerful message. And one was from Mike Flynn. And his

00:22:21.220 | message was also actually pretty powerful if you just read it.

00:22:24.500 | And if you took the names off, all the content was so valuable

00:22:28.500 | both points of view, but the minute it goes into the world,

00:22:31.540 | people immediately judge and they kill the message because of

00:22:34.780 | the messenger. And this is exactly a moment where you have

00:22:38.740 | an opportunity to just stop doing that because the stakes

00:22:41.100 | are so high. It's infuriating, actually, quite honestly, it's

00:22:44.660 | infuriating to see it. We had this last week on the show when

00:22:47.220 | we were talking about reducing spending, the Mac gates is not

00:22:50.500 | the perfect messenger, but his message was the message we've

00:22:52.940 | been talking about, which is, hey, we have to control

00:22:54.540 | spending. So I can understand people not liking that gets

00:22:58.420 | gates, there's a lot of things to not like about I can

00:23:01.180 | understand people not liking Trump and get over it. Well, and

00:23:04.180 | then you know, it's it's bizarre that his son in law went to do

00:23:08.460 | all this work. But yet he did it. And it had success. That's

00:23:12.740 | another example. It's weird, if you listen to your son in law to

00:23:16.260 | do it, but I listened to the

00:23:17.500 | notes. You know what, it's not weird, because at the end, if

00:23:20.340 | you listen to this podcast, the most important thing that is

00:23:24.180 | resoundingly obvious about Jared Kushner is that he is

00:23:29.060 | incredibly thoughtful and incredibly competent. And right,

00:23:33.980 | why did we have to spend years being fed all of these stupid

00:23:40.020 | lies? Because one can judge for oneself, but Jared Kushner is

00:23:44.540 | thoughtful. He's smart. And I thought to myself, I was fed all

00:23:49.580 | these lies for years about how this guy was like, moping around

00:23:53.020 | in the shadows and this and that and it was all not true.

00:23:55.420 | Well, no, when I say it's non traditional, if you sent, you

00:24:01.340 | know, any president's son in law, daughter in law, whatever

00:24:04.780 | child to go to the Middle East, on its surface, this seems

00:24:09.100 | insane. But in fact, he they did good work. And so it's not

00:24:14.740 | traditional. It's not what you would expect thoughtful and

00:24:17.300 | competent. That's what I thought after I that's what I got out of

00:24:20.220 | it as well. And so he's thoughtful and competent.

00:24:21.860 | Yeah, he brought some fresh ideas, just so the audience is

00:24:23.980 | clear. What we're talking about is he just did an interview with

00:24:25.940 | Lex Friedman. And the first hour was on what's happening with

00:24:30.340 | Israel and Hamas must must watch. I think I thought it was

00:24:33.580 | excellent. Excellent, excellent. It was excellent. He did it just

00:24:37.300 | in terms of having fresh eyes. He did things like focus groups.

00:24:40.340 | He's like, Okay, what does what does the Arab street think about

00:24:44.180 | various topics? And he actually did focus groups in various

00:24:47.060 | countries to find out. So I mean, I think Kushner made a

00:24:49.820 | number of really interesting points showing how difficult

00:24:52.100 | it's going to be to get to a two state solution. But first, you

00:24:55.300 | have to set up what is the the Palestinian side say, and what

00:24:58.340 | they say is, look, Gaza is effectively an open air prison,

00:25:01.660 | you've got over 2 million people packed into this very tight

00:25:04.740 | area. There's something like 50% unemployment, it's impoverished,

00:25:09.100 | the conditions are deplorable. And they don't have their own

00:25:12.940 | state, they don't have rights. And it's been like this for a

00:25:14.860 | long time. So that's sort of the the basic pro Palestinian

00:25:19.300 | argument. Kushner's response that was, well, yeah, but you

00:25:23.180 | know, Israel left in 2006, it left Hamas in control, gave them

00:25:27.020 | the keys effectively. The reason why there's such high

00:25:30.660 | unemployment is because Hamas is corrupt and doesn't enforce

00:25:34.300 | property rights. And they scare away all the investment. Nobody

00:25:37.620 | wants to invest there. And Israel did give work permits so

00:25:41.140 | people could leave Gaza to go to work and look what happened. I

00:25:43.700 | mean, when they try to open up the walls, you have a massacre.

00:25:48.580 | So these are the points that he made. Look, I think both sides

00:25:52.340 | of this have legitimate arguments and points to make. I

00:25:55.740 | think that the conditions of the Palestinians in Gaza is

00:25:59.860 | deplorable. And you have to feel for the civilians who live

00:26:03.780 | there, of course, but then, you know, the Israelis have a right

00:26:08.500 | to live without fear, the fear that their security is in

00:26:12.060 | jeopardy, and that this territory can be the launching

00:26:14.420 | pad for terrorist attacks on their soil. So it's going to be

00:26:18.300 | an extremely difficult thing, I think, to to reconcile this, but

00:26:21.460 | you know, Kushner made a couple other interesting points. He

00:26:23.220 | said, Listen, the Gaza part of this is not that hard, because

00:26:26.180 | the boundaries, the territory lines are not in dispute.

00:26:29.940 | There's no religious areas that are in dispute. For example,

00:26:32.860 | you don't have the status of the Temple Mount or, you know, East

00:26:36.020 | Jerusalem, and there's an economic plan to revitalize Gaza

00:26:39.260 | strip. So you really just need a negotiating partner for the

00:26:43.780 | Israelis to figure that out. And of course, now the problem is,

00:26:47.020 | who do you negotiate with? I mean, Hamas is is a terrorist

00:26:50.300 | organization that is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. So

00:26:54.180 | it's really a tragic situation, you look at it, and you're like,

00:26:58.420 | this should be easy to work out, but it's not.

00:27:01.620 | It's a relatively small area. It's a relatively small number

00:27:05.620 | of people. It's 2 million people, we should be able to

00:27:08.340 | figure out the rest of the free world, how to at least have a

00:27:11.660 | path towards this. And the first step is getting rid of Hamas,

00:27:13.980 | right? Like, there's no choice, but they have to go.

00:27:16.220 | I don't really know if that's feasible, Jason. I mean, look,

00:27:19.540 | if there was a button that Israel could push to eliminate

00:27:24.700 | every member of Hamas, yeah, sure, they'd be within the

00:27:27.020 | rights to push that the problem is that Hamas is now deeply

00:27:32.340 | integrated, yeah, embedded in a civilian population of over 2

00:27:37.340 | million, that's densely packed, how do you root them out?

00:27:40.060 | It's going to take decades, it's going to take decades.

00:27:42.140 | And they're basically supported by that population, as far as we

00:27:45.220 | can tell. Yeah. And, you know, again, if you if you take

00:27:49.500 | measures that are perceived as too drastic by the rest of the

00:27:52.220 | world, then you will inflame the opinion of other countries,

00:27:56.660 | you'll turn it against Israel. So, again, it's a really tough

00:28:01.420 | situation. But I think that the US should not only affirm its

00:28:06.700 | support for Israel, it should only denounce the atrocity that

00:28:09.980 | happened on 10.7. But I think it needs to reiterate the Biden

00:28:14.300 | administration does its support for a two state solution. I

00:28:16.700 | think that the US has to be on record that what's in everybody's

00:28:21.500 | long term interest, including Israel is ultimately a two state

00:28:24.100 | solution. And the Palestinians are eventually gonna have to

00:28:26.980 | have their own state. There's simply no way around that.

00:28:29.740 | Right? Yeah. And the free world, I think, is in the process

00:28:36.660 | of getting engaged in making this happen, because it's in

00:28:40.140 | everybody's interest, this can't keep going on. And so hopefully

00:28:43.300 | this, again, I don't want to say silver lining, but I hope that

00:28:46.660 | this, the good that comes out of this is that the world focuses

00:28:49.420 | on resolving this conflict, or

00:28:51.380 | containing a prize that all Jason by the amount of people

00:28:54.300 | that seem to be almost justifying

00:28:58.340 | that was happening to me. I mean, the fact that people could

00:29:02.260 | make any kind of equivalence between terrorist activity and

00:29:05.940 | the level of brutality, I can't even describe it, because it'll

00:29:09.420 | trigger my PTSD, which I had after 911. And it still affects

00:29:13.860 | me, I'm sitting here not far from ground zero. And, you know,

00:29:18.620 | for people, you know, educated people, on colleges, campuses,

00:29:23.820 | or just otherwise to blame the Israelis for the murder of

00:29:30.340 | children, for people being and then justifying rape and

00:29:34.820 | torture, kidnapping. I mean, there is no justification and

00:29:37.900 | there's no equivalency. There's no equivalency here. And this is

00:29:40.940 | one of the big problems. And, you know, these dopey kids on

00:29:44.140 | Harvard's campus or whatever, they have never experienced

00:29:47.900 | evil, stance suffering. We can we literally just dismiss these

00:29:53.340 | idiots, because these are kids who have never faced I don't

00:29:57.380 | think you can, I think one of the things that was shocking to

00:30:00.940 | me was the level of basically either subtle or latent

00:30:06.140 | anti semitism, unconscious, yes, subtle, whatever, that it

00:30:10.180 | unlocked. And I was also shocked at just saxes use this word

00:30:15.980 | before, but it's true. But our leading educational institutions

00:30:19.700 | have really become woke madrasas. They are inculcating

00:30:23.860 | kids with just some virulent poison. I think the reaction is

00:30:27.100 | always to go after to support the underdog. I think in this

00:30:30.380 | group of people, what is that even receive that is that is a

00:30:32.820 | gas that is an idiotic simplification that the smartest

00:30:36.340 | schools in the world educating the smartest kids in the world

00:30:38.940 | should be that's how they think. That's how they think that can't

00:30:42.980 | be that's my feeling. I can't be that there's, it's half

00:30:46.260 | anti semitism. It's half they just think who's the underdog?

00:30:48.900 | I'm taking that side.

00:30:49.900 | Yeah, I think it's that simple. It is in the woke mindset. Yeah.

00:30:54.180 | Well, look, I think it was disgusting and disturbing to see

00:30:58.900 | these organizations and these elite institutions being unable

00:31:03.940 | to denounce Hamas terrorist attack and the atrocity that

00:31:06.940 | took place, or turning out in the streets to celebrate what

00:31:10.420 | happened. And we saw a lot of that to look even if you support

00:31:15.020 | the Palestinian cause, even if you believe that they've been

00:31:18.180 | mistreated, even if you think that their land has been

00:31:21.140 | occupied, they deserve their own state. Even if you believe that

00:31:26.980 | war against the State of Israel is justified on that basis.

00:31:30.380 | These were still war crimes. These were beyond the pale of

00:31:35.580 | war. Again, Hamas did not just attack some military

00:31:39.620 | installations on the border and kill soldiers or capture

00:31:42.740 | soldiers, the vast majority of the people who were killed were

00:31:46.860 | civilians, and there was no conceivable military purpose. And

00:31:51.460 | for example, paragliding into a music festival, a festival for

00:31:55.380 | peace, by the way, and then rounding up and slaughtering the

00:31:58.100 | concert goers. There was no conceivable military

00:32:00.700 | justification for going into these kibbutzes or farming

00:32:03.860 | communities.

00:32:04.500 | You know, families,

00:32:07.220 | not arranged,

00:32:08.780 | it's deranged, so

00:32:10.100 | strange. It's terrorism. And the fact that they can't frame it

00:32:13.540 | as terrorism is insane. But think about what happened. Okay, I

00:32:16.220 | just want to frame the order of events. Okay. 10 seven happens.

00:32:21.220 | And I think within 36 hours or less, let's take Harvard as an

00:32:25.420 | example, okay, the the pinnacle of the woke madrasas, they had

00:32:29.540 | all these student organizations immediately come out trying to

00:32:33.340 | justify this thing without any information, right? Because in

00:32:36.780 | the first 36 hours, obviously not nearly as much information

00:32:40.260 | was available as to exactly what happened. Then it's been

00:32:43.420 | available now as an example,

00:32:44.980 | I should read the statement just so people have clarity, please

00:32:47.660 | join us joint statement by Harvard, Palestine, Palestine

00:32:50.980 | solidarity groups on the situation in Palestine. We the

00:32:54.940 | undersigned student organizations hold Israeli the

00:32:58.500 | Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding

00:33:01.980 | violence. Today's events did not occur in a vacuum. The last two

00:33:05.660 | decades, millions of Palestinians in Gaza have been

00:33:07.820 | forced to live in an open air prison. Israeli officials

00:33:11.380 | promised to quote open the gates of hell and the massacres in

00:33:15.020 | Gaza have already commenced Palestine, Palestinians in Gaza

00:33:18.540 | have no shelters or for refuge, and nowhere to escape in the

00:33:22.820 | coming days, Palestine, Palestinians will be forced to

00:33:25.620 | bear the full brunt of Israel's violence. This is deranged. So

00:33:29.100 | show pathic

00:33:29.820 | my point is you thought you have like 15 or 20 of these student

00:33:33.580 | organizations of all ilks, okay, so it's not just pro Palestinian

00:33:37.780 | groups. It was like the Harvard Sikhs Association, okay, like

00:33:41.940 | Sikhs in South Asia are the most peace loving people in the

00:33:44.820 | world. They're not pro war of any kind whatsoever or pro

00:33:47.700 | terrorism. So all these people write this thing, which blames

00:33:52.540 | Israel, okay, then the school is totally silent. The school

00:33:57.700 | doesn't say they neither they neither completely disavow that

00:34:02.380 | statement, nor do they come out with a more reasonable statement.

00:34:05.500 | All these ex faculty and ex individuals, Larry Summers, sort

00:34:10.100 | of leading say, this is outrageous, have an opinion,

00:34:13.540 | they come out with something that's milk toast in middle of

00:34:15.900 | the road, then they get soundly rejected by everybody yet again,

00:34:19.300 | then the administration comes out and gives a cleaned up

00:34:22.420 | version that tries to allay everybody's anger, because that

00:34:25.500 | the first statement, I think basically essentially pissed off

00:34:28.220 | everybody on both sides. Then a bunch of alums who've already

00:34:32.420 | graduated or who've given money say, these student organizations

00:34:35.980 | are outrageous, we will not hire anybody who's part of this

00:34:41.140 | because their views are so immoral, that we would never

00:34:45.140 | want these people part of our organization.

00:34:47.820 | And so here it is, Bill Ackman, just so we people have yes, Bill

00:34:51.700 | Ackman said, I have been asked by a number of CEOs of Harvard

00:34:55.380 | will release a list of the members of each of the Harvard

00:34:57.460 | organizations that have issued the letter assigning sole

00:34:59.540 | responsibility for a massive heinous acts to Israel. So as to

00:35:03.540 | ensure that none of us inadvertently hire any of their

00:35:06.340 | members. In other words, you must own your words, which is

00:35:09.020 | okay. So then for so then what happens is individual students

00:35:14.300 | actually have to come out who are part of these associations

00:35:18.220 | that were signatories to the first release, had to disavow

00:35:21.580 | the statement, and said, Actually, I'm just an Indian

00:35:25.180 | student at Harvard Law School. There's a Nick, maybe you can

00:35:27.660 | find this tweet of this like, Indian woman from Colorado or

00:35:30.740 | of Indian heritage. And she's like, you just get auto

00:35:33.100 | recruited into these organizations. When you join

00:35:37.660 | Harvard. So I'm like, Well, wait a minute. This is a place

00:35:40.660 | that's supposed to be for like modern free speech, progressive

00:35:43.820 | thinking. And instead, what happens is based on your skin

00:35:46.060 | color, you get auto drafted into some association, then you auto

00:35:49.740 | sign any press release written by some person that you don't

00:35:52.660 | even see or approve. What is going on at these places. And

00:35:57.060 | these are the places that parents and kids are tripping

00:35:59.740 | over themselves, trying to get into kids will kill themselves

00:36:02.940 | if they don't get into. And these are the worst

00:36:05.980 | institutions in America, because back to Jason, what we

00:36:09.660 | talked about earlier, which is, we need people who can think

00:36:12.300 | from first principles, those kids are not it. And those

00:36:15.020 | institutions are not making them. And so if we want to have

00:36:17.900 | a point in time, where when things like this happen, we can

00:36:20.980 | really figure out what happened in the past that was right. And

00:36:24.620 | what can we do in the future? It's not this. And it's not this

00:36:28.140 | kind of thinking. And if you're going to a school, Harvard,

00:36:32.300 | Cornell, UPenn, Stanford, that are spitting out these kids, I

00:36:37.900 | think it's a real shame.

00:36:38.700 | You're spot on. I mean, how sacks Could there any be any

00:36:42.220 | question about the difference between military terrorists, you

00:36:48.500 | know, with machine guns, gunning down people dancing peacefully

00:36:52.900 | at a music festival at sunrise, and then make some equivalency

00:36:57.540 | there it and you cannot actually ascertain for yourself that is

00:37:02.220 | a terrorist act. If you can't from very basically opening your

00:37:06.860 | eyes and seeing what occurred and you know, thank God in some

00:37:09.900 | ways for for x not being censored, because you can

00:37:12.820 | actually see these things. And I know it's very difficult for

00:37:14.900 | people to watch. I don't have any judgment on people who don't

00:37:17.660 | want to watch it. But I think when the world sees these

00:37:20.620 | videos, and you're going to write this letter, you should

00:37:23.820 | very quickly be able to discern military terrorist fighters

00:37:31.300 | from hippie kids dancing at a music festival. It's plain as

00:37:35.900 | day there's there's nothing. There's nothing to confuse you

00:37:39.660 | here. This is the most easy test. You have to be brainwashed

00:37:44.100 | to see something other than that. These schools are woke

00:37:47.060 | madrasas.

00:37:47.780 | Yeah, so a couple of points on that. So if you look at their

00:37:50.620 | statement, I think it's it's appropriate and fine to express

00:37:54.740 | concern about the people the civilians living in Gaza and

00:37:58.620 | what the Israeli response might entail. I think it is fine and

00:38:04.780 | good to do that both for humanitarian reasons and for

00:38:08.260 | self interested reasons if you're a supporter of Israel,

00:38:10.540 | because this could all spiral out of control. However, these

00:38:14.340 | people completely lit their credibility on fire from the

00:38:17.620 | first paragraph, by saying that Israel is entirely responsible

00:38:22.220 | for what happened and not having one word of condemnation for the

00:38:26.780 | atrocities that had just been committed. They cannot even see

00:38:30.700 | the war crimes that have occurred.

00:38:32.820 | Yeah, so I don't even mention Hamas. They don't even mention

00:38:36.180 | the actual people that perpetrated the crime. Right. So

00:38:39.620 | the question is, what is it about their ideology that blinds

00:38:43.940 | them to this atrocious massacre? And, and I think it is this, I

00:38:49.340 | do think it has to do with this this woke mindset. The, the woke

00:38:52.940 | ideology is a form of cultural Marxism in which people are

00:38:58.220 | divided up into oppressor and oppressed groups. So in Marx's

00:39:02.660 | original teaching, you had the proletariat and the bourgeoisie,

00:39:05.540 | basically the oppressed and the oppressor. This kind of went

00:39:09.300 | through this cultural identity filter with woke where again,

00:39:13.500 | people are divided up into identity groups. And so you've

00:39:15.740 | got men versus women, white versus black and brown, you've

00:39:20.100 | got straight versus gay, and so on down the line. And the the

00:39:25.140 | idea is that there's a power structure. And if you are in one

00:39:30.580 | of these groups, and you are by definition, oppressed, and if

00:39:33.020 | you're in one of the oppressor groups, then by definition, you

00:39:38.100 | are guilty in a collective way, you're suffering from yes,

00:39:42.260 | collective guilt,

00:39:43.300 | the people who are oppressed are the righteous ones.

00:39:46.900 | Right. But I think that what you see is that when you divide up

00:39:51.580 | the world this way, first of all, it's just not a very

00:39:54.020 | accurate way of looking at the world. I mean, there are lots of

00:39:56.860 | minority groups in the United States that have done great. So

00:39:59.780 | for example, there's a book written recently about Asian

00:40:03.220 | Americans, the United States called the inconvenient

00:40:05.220 | minority. Why is it inconvenient? Because Asian

00:40:08.700 | Americans have done spectacularly well, they get

00:40:11.260 | into elite colleges and institutions at higher rates

00:40:14.540 | than than whites do, which is why they're the primary group

00:40:17.660 | that's discriminated against by affirmative action before it was

00:40:20.740 | overturned by the Supreme Court. But the reason why the author

00:40:23.820 | called them the inconvenient minority is because their

00:40:26.580 | success in America refutes a lot of this sort of simplistic woke

00:40:31.260 | delineation between if you're a minority group, you're oppressed.

00:40:34.100 | And if you're, you know, in this white group, you're the

00:40:37.100 | oppressor. I think Jews have fallen into a similar type of

00:40:42.620 | categorization, which is they're an inconvenient minority.

00:40:45.100 | They've been historically very successful in America, despite

00:40:48.580 | their being existence of anti semitism. And I think that the

00:40:53.660 | woke ideology has reacted to this by saying, No, you know,

00:40:57.460 | Jews are not really an ethnic group, they're just whites. And

00:41:00.660 | so that's been the response, right is, well, let's just put

00:41:03.340 | them in the oppressor group. So we don't need to explain away

00:41:05.940 | their success. One of the problems with that is that you

00:41:09.460 | have to ignore the existence of anti semitism. And so they do,

00:41:12.820 | they just pretend like it doesn't exist. So here you have

00:41:15.900 | a situation where all of these things are in play. They've

00:41:19.300 | already predefined the Palestinians as being an

00:41:22.820 | oppressed people. And look, and I think in many ways, they are,

00:41:26.100 | but they are not incorrect. But they've defined it in racial

00:41:29.940 | terms, really, right. And they've defined the Israelis and

00:41:34.300 | Jews really, more generally as being part of an oppressor

00:41:37.260 | group. And so everything fits into that larger narrative. And

00:41:40.420 | so when members of one of these woke oppressed groups commits

00:41:46.380 | an injustice, they just can't see it. I mean, their version of

00:41:50.300 | social justice is always defined in terms of collective guilt.

00:41:54.580 | And if you're a member of an oppressed group, by definition,

00:41:57.860 | you're not capable of committing an injustice because you don't

00:42:00.180 | have the power.

00:42:00.820 | Do you guys think that Bill Ackman was out of line by

00:42:04.100 | saying, I don't want to hire kids from these organizations

00:42:09.580 | and these schools, because it's just like these kids and these

00:42:12.140 | schools will bring, basically, I think what he's implicitly

00:42:15.140 | saying is distraction, and it will lower the probability that

00:42:19.140 | I achieved by corporate goals. So these are not good workers

00:42:22.420 | based on your comment about thinking from first principles

00:42:25.700 | and, you know, being able to assess the situation. I think

00:42:28.700 | that's probably what happens at a hedge fund, you have to place

00:42:31.140 | bets, and you have to be able to think from first principles and

00:42:33.940 | be intellectually rigorous. This is the most intellectually lazy

00:42:38.220 | approach. I'm just going to sign a piece of paper without even

00:42:40.500 | thinking. So no, I don't think he's out of line. I think it's

00:42:42.980 | an important lesson for people. Freedom of speech. I was owning

00:42:46.340 | your words, you must own your words in position. And it's

00:42:50.420 | important that young people learn this. Now, you have to own

00:42:53.820 | your words, whether it's on social media, or signing some

00:42:56.260 | stupid petition that you didn't read. And there's a lot of

00:42:59.660 | backtracking going on right now, by the way,

00:43:01.420 | I can't believe that if I got into Harvard, I would get

00:43:03.780 | auto drafted into the brown men's association just because

00:43:07.180 | of the color of my skin. That's gonna be in the factory I've

00:43:09.700 | ever heard.

00:43:10.140 | Gree group. I mean,

00:43:11.580 | let's point out the double standard here that these elite

00:43:14.580 | Harvard students want to be exempt from their their words,

00:43:18.580 | their statements, they don't want to be canceled for that.

00:43:21.020 | However, you know that when some hapless schmuck basically post

00:43:25.780 | some tweet, or posted a tweet 10 years ago, that gets

00:43:29.180 | resurfaced. They're the first ones clamoring for their

00:43:32.740 | cancellation. Right? Yeah, they would like for their firing.

00:43:36.140 | They would like amnesty for their idiotic opinions. Yeah,

00:43:39.340 | well, it's good. Good for the goose here is good for the

00:43:40.940 | gander if they're gonna create a cancel culture, where people

00:43:45.300 | get canceled for their decade old tweets and so forth, and

00:43:48.860 | they should be prepared to live by that standard. Now look,

00:43:51.260 | personally, I would have some degree of forgiveness for a

00:43:55.860 | college student being part of an organization that puts out a

00:43:59.500 | statement, they're claiming they didn't know, okay, but then why

00:44:02.500 | didn't you resign? Look, I don't think there's a good excuse for

00:44:04.900 | this, other than useful stupidity. So I wouldn't cancel

00:44:08.780 | them forever. But look, I do think that it's fine for

00:44:12.620 | inappropriate for someone like Bill Atkins. I don't want to

00:44:14.300 | hire you people.

00:44:15.060 | Yeah, and I would just be careful for you to add the word

00:44:18.500 | youthful because I think it's as get out of jail free card. It's

00:44:21.340 | definitely stupidity. The question is, is the cake baked?

00:44:24.980 | And if the cake is baked, then there's a big argument to never

00:44:28.420 | hiring these people. I mean, look, I just say your frontal

00:44:31.580 | lobes are still developing into your 25 years old. So I would

00:44:34.420 | give college kids a bit of a pass if they do stupid stuff.

00:44:37.180 | You're there to learn you're there to make mistakes. But

00:44:39.500 | that's not what I'm saying. Huge mistake. You're saying the

00:44:41.860 | bakes fully baked. You mean like their, their opinions and who

00:44:44.900 | they are, what I'm saying is you learn a lot from actions drink

00:44:47.780 | too much, don't drink, don't exercise enough, you get a

00:44:50.380 | little sluggish, maybe a little overweight, I get all of that.

00:44:52.700 | I'm not convinced that when you have this fundamentally specific

00:44:59.580 | way of thinking, that you can unwind that so easily, Jason.

00:45:03.180 | So I'm not convinced. Okay, sure, that this mind virus gets

00:45:07.900 | fixed, because you all of a sudden need a job, I actually

00:45:11.420 | think like maybe it's the struggle of realizing that there

00:45:14.180 | are deep consequences to this vein of thinking that this

00:45:17.780 | oppressed versus oppressor or the other way that it was framed

00:45:20.340 | in our group chat is that woke ism and the embracement of

00:45:24.100 | socialism is basically running away from excellence. It's this

00:45:28.860 | idea that everybody has to be the same, what communism says,

00:45:31.940 | we all are the same, nobody is special. We're all going to work

00:45:35.620 | together, do the same things, we're all going to dress in the

00:45:38.180 | same ways. It's the collective we, there aren't going to be

00:45:42.260 | exceptional outliers. But the problem is, that's not how the

00:45:45.140 | world works. And so the other part of why these woke madrasas

00:45:49.500 | are so terrible is that it teaches, I think, to work away

00:45:54.380 | from excellence, and instead of striving for excellence to strive

00:45:57.500 | to be part of a collective. And I think that that is

00:46:00.220 | fundamentally corrosive to America, it's corrosive to what

00:46:02.700 | God is here, that's corrosive to all the great countries in the

00:46:05.180 | world. And so then again, it's like, why would you hire kids

00:46:09.780 | who fundamentally don't want to be excellent, who are afraid

00:46:13.140 | that if they were excellent, they would be guilty of

00:46:16.020 | something? That's ultimately the question. Why, why would any of

00:46:20.780 | these kids go to such an elite school to basically be taught

00:46:23.900 | that it's wrong to excel?

00:46:26.780 | All right, well, let's say I think, perhaps a good

00:46:29.460 | segment as a result, not think for yourself. And then as a

00:46:32.340 | result, sign something like this, which is just stupid.

00:46:35.860 | We'll continue to discuss this topic, I guess, in the weeks

00:46:39.220 | ahead. Again, hopefully this conversation was productive for

00:46:42.740 | the community, the all in community. I understand that,

00:46:46.500 | you know, people might have very strong feelings about, you know,

00:46:50.140 | us discussing it, but we're here to discuss difficult topics.

00:46:53.260 | There's one other aspect to this, I think we should talk

00:46:55.060 | about, which is the United States is larger geopolitical

00:46:57.900 | situation right now. I mean, things seem very tenuous. I did

00:47:02.380 | an event with Palmer lucky, actually, from the front of the

00:47:06.500 | pod, Thomas. And my invite got lost. Yeah, we actually had a

00:47:11.180 | nice debate slash discussion on on Ukraine. But the thing that I

00:47:15.540 | think we agree with is that the US better bring more innovation

00:47:20.420 | into the military, military industrial complex and, and

00:47:23.940 | figure out, like procurement, because our whole cost plus

00:47:27.540 | system right now is so broken. There was an article recently in

00:47:30.420 | the New York Times where it said that the cost of the United

00:47:33.060 | States of producing an artillery shell is $6,000. For

00:47:36.260 | Russia, it's $600. So in other words, it costs the US 10 times

00:47:41.380 | what it costs Russia to produce an artillery shell, even though

00:47:44.140 | Russia is considered to be this super corrupt kleptocracy, where

00:47:48.140 | everyone steals everything. And yet our procurement system is

00:47:51.500 | 10 times more efficient than they don't have competition. And

00:47:55.140 | all the politicians are captured, correct. We have this

00:47:57.100 | cost plus accounting system where every year the price

00:48:00.100 | opportunity to explain that. Yeah. So in every other part of

00:48:03.980 | technology, price goes down over time, right? You can produce

00:48:08.340 | more of something for less. We've seen this with Tesla, we

00:48:12.820 | seen it with PCs, we've seen it with television sets, whatever

00:48:16.860 | it is, the price goes down over time servers. Yeah. Or if the

00:48:20.620 | price goes up, it's because you've developed some

00:48:22.780 | fundamentally new capabilities, some new version, you know, the

00:48:25.380 | more powerful chips, your storage, actually, faster speed,

00:48:28.700 | but you know, we're still making the same artillery shells, the

00:48:32.100 | same Stinger missiles, the same javelins and so forth. I don't

00:48:36.300 | think the capabilities have changed that much. But the price

00:48:38.820 | goes up every year, because it's cost plus. And so explain cost

00:48:43.140 | plus, people may be hearing that for the first, you know, most

00:48:45.620 | companies sell something, and then they have a profit margin.

00:48:47.940 | But right, the way that government procurement works is

00:48:50.380 | the profit margin is controlled. They're only allowed

00:48:54.260 | to market up a certain amount above their costs. But the thing

00:48:57.540 | that's happened in the defense industry is there's been huge

00:48:59.900 | consolidation over the past couple of decades, where now

00:49:02.900 | you've got a handful of defense companies, and it's an oligopoly.

00:49:07.340 | And many of these key armaments are single source. So there's

00:49:12.180 | only one producer, and they just keep raising the price every

00:49:14.620 | year. Now, one of the kind of crazy things about this is, and

00:49:18.700 | Palmer made this point is, it's not like anyone's getting rich

00:49:21.620 | because of cost plus, it's not like the money is basically

00:49:25.980 | making these companies

00:49:27.220 | there's no incentive to lower the price. If you lower the

00:49:30.180 | price, and you're a 10%, and you got your $6,000 down to 4000 10%

00:49:34.900 | of 4000 is a lot less than 10% of 6000. What's happening is not

00:49:37.940 | perverse incentive, Google like margins, what's happening is

00:49:41.380 | that these companies keep building their bureaucracies

00:49:44.220 | bigger and bigger. So they hire lots of staff, they make a lot

00:49:47.700 | of campaign contributions, they fund think tanks. And so their

00:49:52.420 | cost structure just keeps getting more and more bloated,

00:49:54.700 | right?

00:49:54.980 | They're incentivized to do that. The more they charge, the more

00:49:57.460 | they make.

00:49:57.860 | Right now, why am I bringing this up? Well, we're in a

00:50:00.380 | situation now where Israel might be on the precipice of well,

00:50:05.900 | they've declared war against Gaza, and this thing could spiral

00:50:09.140 | out of control and become a regional war.

00:50:11.380 | They may be asking for weapons in

00:50:13.540 | they may be asking for weapons, we've already donated some

00:50:15.700 | however, earlier this year, we used to have an ammunition

00:50:19.460 | stockpile in Israel. The United States did it belong to us, but

00:50:23.980 | it was there potentially in case of a problem in the region. And

00:50:28.020 | that artillery stockpile was basically taken and given to

00:50:33.020 | Ukraine. And remember, we ran out of the key type of

00:50:36.820 | ammunition in the Ukraine war, which is 155 millimeter

00:50:39.740 | artillery shells. That's why we gave them cluster bombs. So the

00:50:44.140 | US is already dangerously low on ammunition. And that's before we

00:50:49.380 | get potentially another war, or another front in this larger,

00:50:55.260 | global conflagration that's happening in other countries

00:50:58.220 | war. And to be clear, we're not at war, but we've been right

00:51:01.300 | asked to donate weapons to Ukraine. And we've been asked to

00:51:04.340 | do that. I think Israelis have asked for weapons. I don't know

00:51:07.460 | if they formally asked, but we are obviously going to

00:51:09.860 | I think there's a bill making its way through right now. It's

00:51:12.860 | going to give some aid to military assistance to Israel.

00:51:16.100 | By the way, we have

00:51:16.860 | Israel also is a major builder of weapons to I mean, their

00:51:21.100 | drone technology is incredibly refined, and they sell weapons

00:51:25.420 | to Russia.

00:51:25.940 | Oh, yeah, Israel is nowhere near the Ukraine situation. Ukraine

00:51:30.220 | is 100% dependent on the United States for its military and for

00:51:33.780 | its economy. Israel has a vibrant military and economy

00:51:37.860 | without the United States, but the United States does make

00:51:41.100 | long term security guarantees to Israel not to fight its wars.

00:51:45.780 | There's no mutual defense treaty. However, we do agree to

00:51:48.700 | provide them with weapons in the event of a war. So we do have

00:51:53.220 | obligations like long standing obligations to them. This is an

00:51:57.300 | ally we've had for 75 years. However, our stockpiles are

00:52:00.940 | dangerously depleted now, because of the Ukraine war. And

00:52:04.380 | on top of that, our procurement system is hopelessly broken. So

00:52:09.140 | in a world of rising multi polarity, where there are other

00:52:13.820 | great powers now, in the system where there are going to be more

00:52:17.100 | and more global threats, I don't think we have a chance of

00:52:20.980 | maintaining our global position and supporting our allies unless

00:52:25.700 | we fix this. I mean, making artillery shells at 10 times

00:52:29.140 | more than what it costs Russia. That's ridiculous.

00:52:31.660 | In Silicon Valley, we have now the funding of military

00:52:35.860 | startups, and there's a whole new class of warfare,

00:52:38.060 | supersonics, drones,

00:52:40.260 | innovation is the only advantage we have. It's the only advantage

00:52:43.980 | we have, right. I mean, this is one of the great things. I

00:52:45.900 | mean, I understand Palmer is not a huge fan of mine, but I'm a

00:52:49.860 | huge fan of the work he's doing and other entrepreneurs are

00:52:52.900 | doing to make new weapons to keep us competitive, because you

00:52:55.660 | can be sure China's making them. And so I think it's absolutely

00:52:58.660 | fantastic. I thought it was always very weird that Google

00:53:01.420 | speaking of work madrasas like Google was for Google employees

00:53:05.500 | were refusing to provide services like even basic cloud

00:53:09.740 | hosting services to the military. That that to benefit

00:53:14.540 | from democracy and living in America while then not

00:53:17.940 | supporting the military just seemed like the ultimate luxury

00:53:22.180 | belief to use Rob's term from the all in summit mafia thoughts.

00:53:27.580 | What does it take guys to for this fever to break for for all

00:53:32.380 | of these people to realize that that level of corruption is not

00:53:36.860 | sustainable, that these ways of thinking are not sustainable,

00:53:41.060 | that it's not a path to peace and prosperity that we actually

00:53:43.900 | want excellence in society, we want people to be outliers. We

00:53:47.860 | want the whole of humanity to move forward. And that's not

00:53:50.700 | going to happen when we move, necessarily as one blob, but a

00:53:54.140 | few people need to sort of clear the brush and lead the way and

00:53:57.900 | the rest of us will come in and fill it in behind them.

00:54:00.140 | I think Vivek is the manifestation of it. I'll be

00:54:01.940 | totally honest, like I think the reason he is going up in the

00:54:04.660 | polls, and the reason people are drawn to him is because he's

00:54:08.100 | smart, and he's exceptional. And he represents one of the great

00:54:13.340 | things about America is that there's people who want to win

00:54:15.580 | and they're smart and excellent. He represents excellence,

00:54:17.980 | right? He represents. I think that's why people are drawn to

00:54:21.540 | him. And I think people are tired of an industrial complex,

00:54:25.820 | they're tired of corruption, they're tired of geriatric, you

00:54:29.500 | know, 80 year old politicians, we need young, successful people

00:54:32.820 | to take leadership positions.

00:54:33.860 | And by the way, I really agree with what you're saying. I think

00:54:35.980 | that there's like, excellence can show itself in different

00:54:38.780 | forms. I think why Obama was so profound. And Joe Rogan said

00:54:43.180 | this was, he was such a statesman, he was the best of us.

00:54:48.100 | But he demonstrated excellence in being composed and measured

00:54:52.660 | and thoughtful and strategic. He was just so excellent.

00:54:56.660 | The Clinton as well.

00:54:59.300 | Clinton as well. Clinton was incredibly steeped in policy. He

00:55:03.980 | was excellent. He was intellectually a massive

00:55:08.180 | outlier. Obama is an intellectual outlier. Vivek is

00:55:11.620 | an intellectual outlier. Let's get these people to change and

00:55:16.380 | run our system of government, please. I think we're soaking in

00:55:20.260 | it.

00:55:20.380 | Yeah, we need smarter, more capable people. I mean, you look

00:55:22.940 | at Biden, he when he gave that speech, in support of Israel, I

00:55:26.860 | mean, a lot of the words were right, but he was like slurring

00:55:28.860 | his way through it. It certainly did not inspire confidence.

00:55:31.620 | It was it was his best speech. And it was concerning the fact

00:55:35.780 | that he's clearly in cognitive decline, you can see it in his

00:55:39.420 | ability to or it and you know, it was his best speech. And it

00:55:43.340 | was also troubling for me as somebody who voted for him to

00:55:46.180 | watch him slur his words are just not it was clear he wasn't

00:55:48.900 | all there. And you're like, geez, what are we showing to the

00:55:50.820 | world if this is the guy who's running the country and if we

00:55:53.260 | reelect him? Now we're saying, hey, we want to have an 84 year

00:55:56.980 | old running the country who's not all there and is in

00:55:59.220 | cognitive decline. Let the guy retire. Let him spend time with

00:56:01.620 | his grandkids.

00:56:02.060 | I think it's more people who are willing to vote for not for what

00:56:07.020 | they want, but to prevent something else. And I think that

00:56:09.900 | that's, that's what's so tragic about how we're thinking as a

00:56:13.620 | country right now.

00:56:14.780 | Yeah, just just to dish it out equally. I mean, I saw Trump

00:56:17.500 | give a recent speech where look, he's nowhere near the cognitive

00:56:21.060 | decline of Biden. I think he's still compass mentis, but he's

00:56:25.940 | not as sharp as he used to be either. I mean, listen, I think

00:56:29.180 | America's basic situation and this has really been reaffirmed

00:56:32.540 | over the past week is that we're no longer in unipolarity

00:56:34.980 | anymore. We're no longer the sole superpower. Yeah, not for

00:56:38.060 | some time. China is now a superpower. They're probably the

00:56:41.660 | low cost manufacturer of the world. So when we talk about

00:56:44.500 | being able to make things like armaments and artillery shells

00:56:46.900 | and weapons, they have the ability to outproduce us. That

00:56:50.020 | is very scary. There are other great powers in the system. Now

00:56:53.100 | Russia has proven over the last five months through his victory

00:56:56.300 | and this counter offensive, that is a power to be reckoned with.

00:56:59.340 | We cannot disregard their concerns anymore. And not only

00:57:03.700 | does America need, I think, top flight leaders like

00:57:07.740 | intellectually who are at the top of their game. But we also

00:57:11.580 | need new thinking, we need to be able to sidestep challenges and

00:57:14.780 | conflicts as opposed to walking into every single trap the way

00:57:18.340 | that Lindsey Graham wants us to. Again, I'll go back on the

00:57:21.620 | Ukraine war. I think it's really clear that we could have avoided

00:57:25.660 | that war if we had taken NATO expansion off the table. And

00:57:28.660 | whether you believe that or not, it was criminal not to try.

00:57:32.020 | If it was a 5% chance it was worth trying. So you and I

00:57:35.300 | look at our situation, we're already mired in the Ukraine

00:57:39.180 | proxy war. Now Israel's on the brink. We need smarter people

00:57:43.940 | and smarter thinking in Washington, we are no longer the

00:57:46.220 | only superpower, we're gonna have a really tough time in a

00:57:49.100 | multipolar world. If we do not look for ways to de escalate

00:57:52.740 | conflict when we can,

00:57:54.420 | or putting aside conflict, why are we not building deep ties

00:57:59.980 | with as many countries as possible? deep cultural ties,

00:58:03.380 | deep economic ties, deep diplomatic ties. Every time we

00:58:07.620 | are in dialogue with a country, and we're building a

00:58:10.100 | relationship with that country, that means free people of the

00:58:13.220 | world are winning, you know, and every time we isolate a country

00:58:17.100 | that does not go right, we're sanctioning half the world.

00:58:19.660 | That's another big part of this problem. Yeah. And so you know,

00:58:23.100 | it's the normalization of relationships, and the deepening

00:58:26.940 | of relationships, that is the high order bit and you need

00:58:29.020 | somebody in office who can do that. And you know, if you look

00:58:31.420 | at how the you know, the hawks in the GOP or the hawks in the

00:58:35.740 | Democratic Party think they think that we have to be at war

00:58:39.340 | with everybody. They think we have to isolate everybody. You

00:58:41.740 | know, the fact that Trump went, and that famous moment where he

00:58:45.220 | walked over the in the DMZ in North Korea and was talking to

00:58:49.420 | Kim Jong Un, that moment you see on Kim Jong Un's face, we can

00:58:54.900 | put it in here. He is so happy to be recognized. Now listen, I

00:58:57.940 | understand.

00:58:58.380 | He has like, suffering. He has a shocked look on his face. Like I

00:59:01.740 | can't believe this is happening.

00:59:02.980 | Right. The same way he did when Dennis Rodman came over.

00:59:05.540 | No, it's like, it's like a fan meeting Taylor Swift. If you

00:59:08.060 | look at those videos, and you compare it to this, it's the

00:59:10.180 | same. And culture is our export. And I know this

00:59:13.540 | sounds about Jason is simplistic.

00:59:15.460 | Yes.

00:59:16.220 | I'll be it can't all be hard power because other countries

00:59:19.340 | have it too now. So we have to work on our soft power, but

00:59:22.500 | you're not going to enhance American soft power with all

00:59:24.820 | this belligerent rhetoric, really this omnidirectional

00:59:28.140 | belligerence that's coming out of Washington. And this is why I

00:59:31.900 | think the smart thing for Blinken to do, or the Biden

00:59:34.860 | administration is, yes, you reaffirm that you stand with

00:59:38.620 | Israel in the face of this unspeakable atrocity, at the

00:59:41.900 | same time, and you don't have to do this right now, because it is

00:59:44.940 | a little bit tough to do it right now. But

00:59:46.220 | it's 100 hostage.

00:59:47.300 | You have to reaffirm your support for the two state

00:59:51.180 | solution. I think the United States has always supported

00:59:53.780 | and by the way, I think I think Tony's done a really good job.

00:59:56.300 | But again, at the end of the day, Tony works for President

00:59:59.380 | Biden. And it's like, Biden hasn't been nearly as definitive

01:00:03.260 | as he could have been, and Tony's had to clean it up. So

01:00:05.940 | one example of this is like in the Wall Street Journal, they

01:00:09.500 | immediately on Sunday, that was sure went to blaming Iran,

01:00:13.540 | right. And then both the Israeli military intelligence and

01:00:18.500 | American intelligence, they had to do an entire press circuit to

01:00:21.740 | try to disarm this in a way that was not seen in a long time.

01:00:24.700 | And you have to ask yourself, why, why is that even happening?

01:00:29.540 | And it's like, well, whatever special interests wanted to get

01:00:32.580 | that on the front page of the Wall Street Journal was able to

01:00:34.860 | do it. But it has dangerous implications. And then what you

01:00:38.580 | need is a really strong leader that can step up and say, this

01:00:41.100 | is false, this is not happening. This is what we need. You needed

01:00:44.420 | an Obama in that situation. And I think that this is Clinton,

01:00:47.940 | or Clinton, Reagan. And I think that this is an opportunity for

01:00:53.980 | us to ask ourselves, okay, who is the most dynamic, excellent

01:00:59.620 | candidate that can give us this and be open minded and not make

01:01:04.140 | this line about Republican versus Democrat right now,

01:01:07.340 | because the world is getting super complicated. We need

01:01:10.580 | someone hyper, hyper, excellent and intellectually competent.

01:01:15.100 | Well, I will say this for Trump is that he's the only president

01:01:21.140 | in recent memory who didn't give us any new wars. Best quality.

01:01:23.980 | Yeah, I think he has a despite despite all of his issues. I

01:01:27.620 | think he has a unique ability to project strength to the American

01:01:32.060 | public. While not being one of these super hawks. He's

01:01:34.820 | actually, I'd say relatively dovish.

01:01:37.380 | He actually walked through his secret plan. He's he said, I

01:01:40.700 | can't remember where this clip but he said whenever he met with

01:01:42.980 | these folks, he basically left a 10% chance that he would nuke

01:01:46.460 | them. That's what he said. And it turned out that that 10% was

01:01:51.780 | just enough for the for everybody. Just enough crazy

01:01:54.220 | for everybody to stay alive.

01:01:55.180 | It was just enough. I see. I think the US already has enough

01:01:58.420 | deterrence. I think we've maxed out on deterrence. I think the

01:02:01.380 | thing that was smart about Trump was that he was willing to do

01:02:04.220 | business. Yes, he was willing to negotiate and he didn't feel the

01:02:08.540 | need to make these moral condemnations all the time he was

01:02:12.420 | willing to meet with Kim Jong Un, he was willing to meet with

01:02:16.420 | Putin and and Xi Jinping and he avoided criticizing them

01:02:22.220 | personally. He didn't call them dictators. He talked about

01:02:25.020 | how smart they are. Yeah, it's the art of the deal, right? I

01:02:28.140 | mean, at the end of the day, he's looking to do business. And

01:02:31.340 | we need a little bit more of that. And I think this is why

01:02:33.220 | Jared Kushner was successful is he went in there with the

01:02:35.900 | mindset of a businessman. Yeah, how do we find something that's

01:02:39.100 | beneficial to both sides?

01:02:40.980 | Totally right. I think that when Trump was elected, I was told

01:02:44.060 | that it was the end of the world. And that's what I

01:02:45.900 | thought. And I'd already underwritten him as an F. Okay.

01:02:49.140 | And then four years into the presidency, he was probably

01:02:53.620 | like a C in my mind. And then as I get a little bit of distance

01:02:59.460 | away, I realized no, hold on a second, this guy was like a BB

01:03:02.460 | plus like he was pretty good. And unfortunately, the few

01:03:07.140 | things that if he if he could have just pushed through, would

01:03:11.340 | have really saved America, the biggest one being these 100 year

01:03:13.900 | bonds, it, it would have kept America from getting to the

01:03:17.780 | precipice of fiscal ruin. And we'd be in a highly different

01:03:20.780 | situation. And I'm not sure we could have ever given him credit

01:03:24.060 | for it. But the further and further I get away from him, and

01:03:26.820 | the less emotional I am. He did a pretty good job. He was a

01:03:30.460 | pretty good president.

01:03:31.180 | Don't forget that he tried to overturn the election and steal

01:03:34.700 | the election.

01:03:35.220 | I voted for Hillary Clinton, I voted for Joe Biden. But this is

01:03:38.540 | the honest assessment the guy did for the things that he was

01:03:41.660 | supposed to do a good job. And for where every other president

01:03:45.620 | found a way to frankly make our situation a little bit worse,

01:03:50.220 | specifically around wars, he did not do that. And that is a

01:03:53.540 | huge accomplishment that I think needs to be acknowledged.

01:03:56.460 | And he would have ripped up the Constitution and taken the

01:03:59.900 | presidency and stolen it. So just give that in mind as well.

01:04:02.500 | Less we get him. That's it. Yeah, that's why he's not. That's

01:04:06.940 | why he's not an A. He's a B plus.

01:04:09.300 | Okay, so you have to admit if it weren't for the black swan of

01:04:12.620 | COVID, he would have been reelected in a landslide

01:04:15.300 | landslide. It's quite possible he would have been reelected.

01:04:19.140 | Yeah, I mean, I and also, yeah, it's by the way, I mean, it's

01:04:21.660 | great the way things are going in this country right now, both

01:04:24.500 | economically and internationally. He's gonna

01:04:28.340 | waltz into the White House, he's gonna spend all of his time in

01:04:30.580 | the next year in in the courthouses, battling all these

01:04:34.340 | lawsuits, the lawfare against him. He's not gonna be able to

01:04:37.540 | campaign and it won't even matter. Because people are going

01:04:40.140 | to be so done with this.

01:04:41.220 | And nobody wants him as president again. So I think

01:04:44.260 | that's that nobody wants that. Everybody wants new choices.

01:04:47.500 | All right, everybody, if you do not want to hear us talk about

01:04:51.100 | complex issues in the world, you can unsubscribe from the pod,

01:04:53.580 | we're going to be here every week having hard discussions,

01:04:56.020 | listening to each other and learning together. You don't

01:04:58.780 | have to agree with any one of us. But we are. We're happy to

01:05:03.980 | have the difficult conversations and learn every week here. And

01:05:09.540 | yeah, our thoughts and prayers go out to the families and the

01:05:15.820 | friends of those impacted by this heinous terrorist attack.

01:05:19.300 | And I don't know if anybody has any other closing remarks here.

01:05:22.540 | But obviously, we're heartbroken. And we hope that

01:05:27.300 | peace prevails and that the hostages are released as

01:05:29.900 | quickly as possible.

01:05:30.780 | Well said.

01:05:32.140 | All right, everybody, this is Episode 149 of the All In

01:05:36.500 | podcast. Next week, we'll we'll talk about all the different

01:05:39.420 | topics. But for this week, we're gonna let it sit where it is

01:05:44.700 | right now.

01:05:45.100 | See you next time, bye-bye.

E149: Hamas terror attacks in Israel: fallout, reaction, next steps

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