Everyday Educator - Education: Foundations for Now, Fruit for Later
00:00:00.000 | (gentle music)
00:00:02.580 | - Welcome friends to this episode
00:00:07.000 | of the Everyday Educator podcast.
00:00:09.560 | I'm your host, Lisa Bailey,
00:00:11.240 | and I am excited to spend some time with you today
00:00:14.680 | as we encourage one another, learn together,
00:00:17.940 | and ponder the delights and challenges
00:00:20.740 | that make homeschooling the adventure of a lifetime.
00:00:23.840 | Whether you're just considering
00:00:25.920 | this homeschooling possibility
00:00:28.120 | or deep into the daily delight of family learning,
00:00:32.040 | I believe you'll enjoy thinking along with us.
00:00:35.320 | But don't forget, although this online community is awesome,
00:00:40.120 | you'll find even closer support in a local CC community.
00:00:45.120 | So go to classicalconversations.com
00:00:49.360 | and find a community near you today.
00:00:53.140 | Well, listeners, I suspect that all of you
00:00:57.640 | are now deep into that daily delight of family learning
00:01:02.640 | that we were just talking about,
00:01:04.680 | and that you are back at it.
00:01:08.520 | Foundations, essentials, challenge students and families
00:01:13.520 | working and learning together.
00:01:16.640 | And I wanted us to think a little bit
00:01:20.120 | as we begin this new year,
00:01:22.100 | what is it exactly that we're doing
00:01:26.120 | in this homeschooling endeavor?
00:01:28.040 | I know we're trying to teach our children to read
00:01:31.700 | and to write, to understand what they read,
00:01:36.080 | to grasp the facts of history,
00:01:41.160 | and understand how to live as godly men and women
00:01:46.160 | in the world.
00:01:47.720 | There are academic things that we are practicing
00:01:50.260 | and trying to do with their children at home.
00:01:52.680 | And then there are character-building things
00:01:56.320 | that we are trying to do with our families at home.
00:02:00.200 | Today, I really want us to think about the foundations
00:02:05.160 | that we're laying with our children,
00:02:08.240 | not just foundations as in the foundations curriculum,
00:02:13.240 | so what we're doing with our little children,
00:02:15.440 | giving them lots of good memory work,
00:02:17.240 | things to start building a memory palace,
00:02:23.240 | of facts and information, not just that foundation,
00:02:27.760 | but the foundation of learning how to think,
00:02:30.880 | learning how to put ourselves in somebody else's place,
00:02:35.680 | the foundation of learning all that God has for us
00:02:40.680 | as he equips us to be his ambassadors in this world
00:02:45.920 | that's not our final home,
00:02:49.120 | but is where God's planted us for now.
00:02:51.280 | And so we want to look at one of classical conversations,
00:02:56.280 | we believe statements, and think about what does it mean
00:03:00.680 | for our families, not just in a real philosophical way,
00:03:05.680 | which a lot of times is fun to think about,
00:03:08.740 | but in very practical ways.
00:03:10.760 | Like what does it mean for me as a mom or a dad at home
00:03:15.480 | with my child, whether they're five or 10 or 15?
00:03:20.320 | The we believe statement I want us to dive into today
00:03:23.480 | is this, we believe that classical education prepares us
00:03:28.480 | to accept the responsibilities of Christian freedom.
00:03:34.480 | Now, that does sound like a big philosophical topic,
00:03:39.480 | and I have got a dear friend with me today
00:03:42.640 | hoping that we can dive into this discussion together
00:03:48.680 | and that you will enjoy listening along.
00:03:52.720 | Charity Brown, thank you so much for being with us today.
00:03:56.860 | - Thank you, Lisa, it's a privilege to be with you again.
00:04:01.640 | - Charity works for classical conversation.
00:04:04.960 | Charity, tell them what you do for classical conversations.
00:04:08.680 | - Well, I work with classical conversations multimedia,
00:04:11.720 | and I am the production editor for the Spanish product line
00:04:15.720 | that we use internationally.
00:04:17.720 | And she does such an amazing job.
00:04:20.120 | I'm in awe of somebody who can think and write and speak
00:04:25.120 | a different language and make it so beautiful.
00:04:28.420 | And so I appreciate Charity's work
00:04:30.760 | as she's very instrumental in helping
00:04:33.880 | the curriculum development team
00:04:36.640 | pass on the good work that we're doing to other nations.
00:04:44.300 | But Charity is also a homeschooling mom
00:04:48.300 | who has graduated one of her children.
00:04:51.320 | And so she knows what it is to build
00:04:54.920 | not just academic adequacy into her children,
00:05:01.160 | but spiritual sensitivity also,
00:05:10.820 | equipping them to be God's emissary to a world.
00:05:15.140 | So, Charity, one of the things I want to ask you,
00:05:19.580 | and this is, I want your honest thoughts about this,
00:05:23.860 | what are the responsibilities of Christian freedom?
00:05:28.860 | Like we just talked, I just read you that statement,
00:05:32.300 | classical education prepares us to accept
00:05:34.560 | the responsibilities of Christian freedom.
00:05:37.180 | So what are those responsibilities?
00:05:41.020 | - Well, the phrase itself I think is very counter-cultural.
00:05:45.180 | - Yeah.
00:05:46.020 | - The idea that freedom has responsibilities.
00:05:48.900 | When I was in public high school, ninth grade,
00:05:54.500 | I believe it was on the back of my English teacher's door,
00:05:57.440 | there was a poster and it said,
00:05:59.540 | freedom is not doing what you want,
00:06:02.060 | it's doing what you ought.
00:06:03.740 | And that just stuck with me over the years.
00:06:08.280 | And as I've gotten older,
00:06:10.680 | the idea of being able to discern
00:06:13.780 | what we ought to be doing,
00:06:15.700 | which as Christians, we have two goals,
00:06:18.140 | and that is to love God and love others,
00:06:20.360 | being able to hone in on that
00:06:25.020 | and focus in on how does that look in our daily lives,
00:06:28.380 | loving God and loving others,
00:06:30.460 | and in obedience to Him, we find freedom.
00:06:34.140 | We find the freedom to please the Lord.
00:06:35.960 | And that is such an exciting adventure for all of us.
00:06:39.100 | - I really love that.
00:06:44.300 | The whole idea of what we ought to do,
00:06:47.800 | and that as Christians, what we are called to do
00:06:51.260 | is to love God and to love others,
00:06:53.900 | and that freedom actually gives us permission
00:06:58.900 | to do what we ought to do,
00:07:02.940 | but it also calls us to do what we ought to do.
00:07:07.700 | That's really beautifully put, Charity.
00:07:12.260 | What kind of responsibilities do you think
00:07:18.280 | the Lord puts on us when we come to know Him
00:07:21.940 | and we give ourselves to Him as servants,
00:07:26.100 | acknowledging Him as our Master,
00:07:28.280 | not just as a great God who loves us?
00:07:33.260 | - Right, well, the first thing that comes to mind
00:07:35.460 | is Ephesians, the very famous passage
00:07:38.820 | on Ephesians 2, verses eight through 10.
00:07:42.820 | It says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith,
00:07:45.500 | "and this is not of your own doing, it is the gift of God."
00:07:48.180 | And so we always start there that our position in Christ,
00:07:53.180 | our freedom in Christ is a gift of grace,
00:07:57.420 | not a result of works that no one may boast.
00:08:00.020 | We absolutely can do nothing to save ourselves.
00:08:02.780 | It is all Him, but I love this next verse
00:08:05.900 | because it's often not linked onto the first two.
00:08:09.300 | "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus,"
00:08:13.140 | He did this thing in us, "for good works,
00:08:16.420 | "which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
00:08:20.380 | And so our response to the grace of God that sets us free
00:08:24.660 | is to walk in the good works He has prepared for us,
00:08:28.200 | not as a means of salvation in any sense,
00:08:30.900 | but as an expression of love to Him.
00:08:35.900 | We often tell our children God's love language is obedience.
00:08:40.340 | And that is found, of course, in the passages
00:08:44.340 | in John 14 and 15, where Jesus says,
00:08:47.000 | "I am doing this thing, I am obeying the fathers,
00:08:49.700 | "that the world may see that I love the Father."
00:08:52.460 | And so that to me is how Christian freedom is expressed
00:08:58.400 | theologically, and our starting point for practical life.
00:09:03.200 | - I love that, obedience, yes, yes.
00:09:07.400 | So that's beautiful, and I suspect something
00:09:11.840 | that all of us, as we listen to this,
00:09:14.640 | all of our listeners are thinking,
00:09:16.640 | "Yes, that is what I want to pass on to my children."
00:09:21.640 | The grace that God has given us
00:09:24.520 | is what we've built our family on,
00:09:26.920 | and we want our children to learn
00:09:30.000 | that the proper response to grace in love is obedience,
00:09:35.000 | and is doing what He calls us to do in the world.
00:09:41.580 | So let me ask you this, how does classical education
00:09:46.580 | prepare us to do this thing?
00:09:51.240 | - I feel like classical education prepares us
00:09:54.400 | to walk in love of God and love of others really well.
00:09:59.180 | In a practical sense, loving someone means caring
00:10:06.360 | about what they care about.
00:10:07.560 | That's at least a part of what love is,
00:10:09.320 | and what God cares about more than anything
00:10:12.320 | is saving the world and making Himself known.
00:10:15.760 | I've just been recently reading through the Old Testament
00:10:18.080 | again with my family, and even in the times
00:10:20.660 | when he's pouring out his just wrath on the wicked,
00:10:23.720 | he keeps saying, "So the nations will know
00:10:26.300 | "that I am the Lord.
00:10:27.480 | "So the nations will know that I am the Lord."
00:10:29.280 | And his obsession from Genesis to Revelation
00:10:32.640 | is to reveal himself, to make himself known to the world,
00:10:36.100 | to rescue the lost.
00:10:38.200 | And a classical Christian education allows us
00:10:42.520 | to show our children, through great conversations
00:10:46.120 | and great books and through the study of Scripture,
00:10:49.040 | to show our children the truth.
00:10:50.580 | And the truth is, we start out lost.
00:10:53.820 | The world is lost, that there is a rescue plan,
00:10:57.200 | and the only reason a rescue plan is needed
00:10:59.740 | is if someone's in trouble.
00:11:01.300 | And so for me, to be able to classically educate
00:11:06.580 | my children at home means inculcating,
00:11:09.300 | putting into them the truth, the truth of lostness,
00:11:13.740 | the truth of God's great obsession with loving the lost
00:11:16.840 | and saving the lost, and how we can join in
00:11:21.180 | as we experience, even in education,
00:11:25.420 | as we experience these ideas and consider the decisions
00:11:27.820 | of others, we too can join in his great mission.
00:11:32.820 | And by doing so, express our love to him.
00:11:35.480 | And that is a great, great privilege.
00:11:38.120 | - And that is the great commission to go
00:11:41.080 | and to make disciples.
00:11:42.280 | I love the way you said that it's God's obsession
00:11:46.200 | that people come to him.
00:11:47.600 | He is obsessed with the idea of giving people the chance
00:11:52.600 | to know him and to turn from their own selfish desires
00:11:57.600 | to him.
00:12:01.020 | So it's God's obsession.
00:12:02.300 | And if we love him, and as we love him,
00:12:06.700 | his mission becomes our mission.
00:12:10.520 | We become his hands and feet.
00:12:12.440 | I really like that.
00:12:13.640 | And I think you're right, classical education prepares us
00:12:17.300 | to put ourselves in other's shoes,
00:12:22.020 | to think other people's thoughts.
00:12:26.040 | I'm not saying it opens us up to take on
00:12:31.040 | their thought patterns.
00:12:32.760 | We certainly don't want our children to join the thoughts
00:12:36.240 | of ungodly people or to follow bad leadership.
00:12:40.780 | But I think a classical education that shows you the past
00:12:45.780 | and the present and what peoples all over the world
00:12:53.420 | and cultures all over the world have struggled with
00:12:57.120 | and think about and how they express things,
00:13:00.080 | I think it does allow us and our children to understand
00:13:05.080 | quote unquote, where people are coming from,
00:13:09.720 | or to give us an intersection point.
00:13:12.860 | It's really hard to begin a conversation with somebody
00:13:17.700 | that you have nothing in common with.
00:13:20.240 | Or if you don't know how to ask good questions,
00:13:25.180 | to find your commonality.
00:13:28.000 | You don't know how to approach people
00:13:29.840 | and you don't know how to be approachable.
00:13:32.700 | And that makes it hard.
00:13:34.000 | I love it.
00:13:34.840 | In the catalog, this we believe statement
00:13:39.840 | is listed in the catalog and I absolutely love
00:13:43.320 | this paragraph because it sort of tells what the classical
00:13:48.320 | educator's mission is with regards to the responsibilities
00:13:54.920 | of Christian freedom.
00:13:57.320 | It says, we examine the words, thoughts, and actions
00:14:02.880 | of the past and present, of Christians and non-Christians,
00:14:07.880 | of neighboring and distant cultures,
00:14:11.460 | all in order to stand like Paul and be all things
00:14:16.180 | to all people with a ready answer for the hope within us.
00:14:21.180 | And so I think it is very, it's far seeing
00:14:29.640 | that the classical education is far seeing
00:14:33.420 | in that it knows we need a way to connect
00:14:38.420 | with people we want to influence.
00:14:41.340 | And so that's really cool.
00:14:45.200 | I know that for my girls, I loved the classical education
00:14:50.200 | we offered them, taught them how to speak well.
00:14:58.760 | And I was glad about that.
00:15:01.140 | It taught them how to make their points clearly
00:15:05.660 | and succinctly enough that people didn't lose interest
00:15:08.800 | before they got to the end.
00:15:10.700 | And it taught them how to shore up all of their arguments
00:15:15.560 | with good evidence and moving stories.
00:15:19.600 | And that was awesome.
00:15:21.600 | But the other thing it taught them was how to listen,
00:15:25.720 | how to truly listen to another's point
00:15:30.720 | instead of merely using your time
00:15:35.640 | to marshal your next answer.
00:15:38.820 | It taught them to listen carefully to somebody else,
00:15:43.680 | especially an idea that seemed opposing
00:15:48.680 | to their current belief.
00:15:50.920 | It taught them to listen and sift through the nuances
00:15:55.120 | and the fact and to examine it from all areas.
00:16:00.120 | And that to me is a priceless reason
00:16:04.520 | to pursue a classical education.
00:16:07.500 | - Right, I agree.
00:16:09.080 | I think a couple of things come to mind when you say that
00:16:12.760 | we don't expose them to these things
00:16:14.760 | so that our children are sponges
00:16:16.340 | and they soak up all the pagan ideas of the world.
00:16:19.440 | You know, G.K. Chesterton has a quote that I love
00:16:22.660 | and he says, "Don't be so open-minded.
00:16:24.760 | "Your brains fall out."
00:16:25.920 | I would use that on my children occasionally.
00:16:29.640 | But the idea of being able to approach people,
00:16:33.840 | cultures, ideas, past and present,
00:16:38.440 | and you can even predict, you know,
00:16:41.080 | our children love to write fantasy or sci-fi,
00:16:43.520 | predict the choices of the future.
00:16:46.360 | All of these things, you know,
00:16:48.440 | I think sometimes Christians have been afraid
00:16:52.000 | to filter other cultures
00:16:54.280 | because they're like, oh no, is that judging?
00:16:56.920 | Is that what judging means?
00:16:58.080 | Not, you know, don't judge.
00:16:59.600 | But the biblical, there is a biblical form of judging
00:17:03.800 | where we hold ideas up to the standard of scripture.
00:17:07.840 | And I know when the children and I,
00:17:11.400 | when they were very little,
00:17:12.440 | I would take them to various cultural events.
00:17:14.600 | We went to the Japanese Cherry Blossom Festival
00:17:17.840 | thingy in town.
00:17:18.840 | We went to the Indian Food Festival and Dance.
00:17:21.440 | We went to the,
00:17:22.800 | and we would have these really fascinating conversations
00:17:25.360 | where we would, on the way home, we would say,
00:17:27.480 | what did you see in this place?
00:17:30.480 | What did you hear that lines up with the values of scripture?
00:17:35.480 | And they would say things like, wow, you know,
00:17:37.640 | the Asian cultures, they really put an emphasis
00:17:40.160 | on honoring the older people and their families.
00:17:43.960 | And we would talk about how that was a reflection
00:17:46.240 | of the beauty that God had put in their culture.
00:17:49.040 | And then we would say,
00:17:50.080 | and what did you see that didn't line up
00:17:52.960 | with the truth of scripture?
00:17:54.960 | Well, these people maybe worshiped idols.
00:17:57.840 | Is that a search for God?
00:18:01.720 | Well, no, Romans tells us that is not a search for God.
00:18:04.400 | That is the light has been shown in Romans one,
00:18:07.320 | general revelation, and mankind has turned
00:18:10.480 | and made a substitute and we are wandering in the dark.
00:18:13.040 | And so to be able to put those things up and say,
00:18:18.360 | we have a standard against which we can view culture.
00:18:22.840 | And we have a standard against which we can view
00:18:25.320 | the decisions of people which all in mass make up a culture
00:18:30.320 | and hold them up to scripture and say,
00:18:32.920 | and how does this inform how we should live?
00:18:35.200 | I really feel like the exposure to different cultures
00:18:39.960 | and different ideas, if a parent can go at it
00:18:44.960 | with scripture under their arm
00:18:47.400 | and not with a sense of fear that if my child sees this,
00:18:51.520 | they may be drawn to this in careful discernment,
00:18:55.600 | it can be greatly used to bring your child closer to Christ.
00:19:00.360 | And we found that to be an invaluable exercise as a family.
00:19:04.320 | That is such a super practical way to begin
00:19:09.320 | these kinds of discussions, even with your,
00:19:13.400 | like you said, when your kids are little,
00:19:15.320 | we did things like the Greek festival
00:19:18.640 | with the food and the dancing.
00:19:19.800 | - All the great food.
00:19:20.800 | - Yes, all the great food.
00:19:22.160 | And we took them to other types of worship surfaces
00:19:26.280 | so that they could see how other cultures and other peoples,
00:19:30.680 | I love that, it's very practical.
00:19:32.760 | And I love your injunction that afterwards you ask,
00:19:36.920 | so you're asking really them to compare,
00:19:39.320 | how is this like what the Lord calls us to do?
00:19:42.480 | What was missing from this experience?
00:19:45.880 | But that allows them to both develop their own identity
00:19:50.040 | as God's own and see how other cultures are worshiping
00:19:55.040 | or are thinking or are forming their thoughts.
00:20:01.880 | And that's really important.
00:20:05.240 | And here's the thing, our children,
00:20:09.080 | God willing in the natural order, in his natural order,
00:20:12.960 | our children will leave our home and they will go,
00:20:17.160 | and they'll still be in our spheres,
00:20:19.280 | but not in our immediate orbits.
00:20:21.880 | And we need to prepare them for the world
00:20:25.280 | that is outside our home.
00:20:27.840 | I don't want it to be a rude awakening for my children.
00:20:32.520 | I don't want it to be the shock of a cold shower
00:20:36.560 | when they get out there.
00:20:37.800 | I want them to have experience and thought about
00:20:41.440 | and talked about some of these big differences
00:20:44.960 | between the world that God is calling us to
00:20:49.760 | and the world that they are surrounded by on a daily basis.
00:20:53.480 | I can remember when my oldest was in high school,
00:20:58.480 | I went to talk to a brand new
00:21:01.800 | or fairly new classical conversations community
00:21:05.640 | whose parents were up in arms
00:21:07.800 | that our young high school students, ninth graders,
00:21:12.160 | were being exposed to philosophy for the first time
00:21:17.160 | and some philosophies of godless,
00:21:21.560 | especially in some minds, godless thinkers of past ages.
00:21:27.880 | And so they were really worried about this
00:21:32.400 | and had a lot of pushback.
00:21:34.400 | And I had taken my daughter with me
00:21:37.400 | because I knew these were issues that were gonna come up.
00:21:39.840 | And I asked her to come up and she said,
00:21:42.780 | "I had a time, what do you want me to say?"
00:21:44.680 | And I said, "I'm not telling you what to say.
00:21:46.560 | "I want you to answer the questions that they give you
00:21:50.400 | "from your own experience.
00:21:52.320 | "And that's what I want you to say."
00:21:53.660 | And so when somebody said,
00:21:55.360 | "Didn't it make you worry about your faith?
00:21:59.320 | "And didn't it make you question
00:22:00.680 | "what you had always known about God and about God's plan
00:22:05.520 | "for man and about how things came to be
00:22:08.020 | "when you were faced with these other thoughts?"
00:22:10.360 | And she said, "No, not really."
00:22:12.760 | She was really thoughtful.
00:22:13.640 | I didn't tell her the questions ahead of time
00:22:15.360 | that I had been given.
00:22:16.440 | She said, "No, it made me realize that God wants me
00:22:22.420 | "to think big thoughts and that he is strong enough
00:22:29.040 | "to stand up under close scrutiny
00:22:32.280 | "and that everything I knew about God
00:22:34.360 | "and everything I saw of him in the scripture
00:22:37.720 | "is an answer for these other philosophies
00:22:41.840 | "and these other ways of thinking."
00:22:43.120 | And she said, "Those are dead men thinking
00:22:47.660 | "and I have a God who's alive who leads me."
00:22:51.760 | And at that point I thought, okay, that's the answer.
00:22:55.120 | That's the answer to why we talk about these things
00:22:59.520 | with our children while they're still at home with us.
00:23:02.520 | So if it is the ideal for us to raise our children
00:23:07.520 | to accept the responsibilities of Christian freedom,
00:23:11.380 | what should students be doing?
00:23:15.360 | What kinds of things are they supposed to ponder
00:23:18.240 | or practice, what would you say to that, Charity?
00:23:22.000 | - Well, I think what you just said actually leads me
00:23:24.520 | to my answer for that and that would be,
00:23:27.880 | I think that students benefit hugely
00:23:31.840 | from the introduction to logic that CC gives them
00:23:35.360 | prior to their introduction to a lot
00:23:38.140 | of the great philosophers.
00:23:39.380 | And the reason I say that is because the logic
00:23:42.480 | is presented in a Christian way.
00:23:44.140 | And I remember my son, when he had just finished
00:23:48.680 | challenge B, I believe it was,
00:23:50.420 | and we had gone through formal logic
00:23:53.900 | and we were having a family discussion.
00:23:55.840 | I said, "So Alex, what do you wanna do when you grow up?"
00:23:59.120 | We were having that classic conversation, right?
00:24:01.900 | And he said, "Oh, I wanna be a Christian."
00:24:04.040 | And I was a little taken aback.
00:24:07.100 | I was like, "That's awesome, why would you say that?"
00:24:09.020 | And he said, "Mom, it's the only thing that makes sense."
00:24:12.840 | And he had seen logic, that the logic,
00:24:17.840 | the study of logic as applied to scripture
00:24:21.200 | just proved again, the orderly, beautiful mind of God.
00:24:25.180 | And he had that love in his heart
00:24:28.560 | before he hit philosophy, right?
00:24:30.980 | And so it's, I think that as the students dig into logic,
00:24:35.120 | and I think as they hold scripture up to logic
00:24:37.260 | and they find syllogisms in scripture,
00:24:39.060 | they see how God's mind is reflected there,
00:24:41.920 | it prepares them.
00:24:43.720 | And then they can begin to explore these other philosophers
00:24:46.840 | and say, "Okay, well, how did this person approach
00:24:51.180 | or deviate from the standard of scripture?"
00:24:54.060 | So I think really digging into the subjects of logic
00:24:56.980 | and philosophy are excellent preparation for freedom.
00:25:00.840 | Because free people, truly free Christian people
00:25:07.040 | have to analyze and filter through ideas
00:25:10.620 | to be able to make good decisions.
00:25:12.040 | And I think those two particular subjects
00:25:15.060 | are ideal for preparation.
00:25:17.000 | - I love what you said, Charity, about our students
00:25:22.000 | being really equipped in the study of logic
00:25:25.360 | to then think clearly about philosophy
00:25:29.800 | and not be ensnared by that,
00:25:32.720 | but be able to really clearly think.
00:25:34.980 | And I love that my older daughter,
00:25:38.380 | who also loved Challenge B Logic,
00:25:40.200 | she put that to the test.
00:25:43.880 | She actually, I found out later in high school
00:25:47.640 | and then in college, she would sit with her Bible
00:25:49.780 | doing her daily devotions.
00:25:51.800 | And especially when she was reading Paul's writings,
00:25:55.220 | she would turn the scripture verses into syllogisms
00:25:59.440 | and prove for herself that these are valid arguments.
00:26:04.440 | And they are also true arguments.
00:26:09.900 | And so it shored up her faith, and that was beautiful.
00:26:14.380 | And she learned to think well and think clearly.
00:26:18.080 | And that is a great benefit of all of the classical
00:26:22.260 | education that our students receive.
00:26:24.640 | And we've talked a lot about what we give them
00:26:26.980 | in the challenge years, but there are great skills
00:26:30.460 | of thinking and listening that our younger students get.
00:26:35.260 | Even in foundations, our little kids learn to listen
00:26:39.560 | well when they have to listen to presentations
00:26:44.080 | in foundations.
00:26:45.080 | They are taught to listen intently and to think
00:26:48.960 | of good questions to ask about the content.
00:26:52.220 | So from a four and five year old age,
00:26:54.880 | they are being trained to be good listeners
00:26:59.400 | and good presenters and good thinkers.
00:27:02.600 | And so yes, logic skills and clear thinking skills
00:27:08.560 | are great, but so are the skills of asking good questions.
00:27:12.420 | And those actually, those kinds of skills
00:27:15.160 | of asking good questions are what we want citizens to have.
00:27:20.040 | We need our children to grow up and be able to ask
00:27:25.040 | good questions of the leaders of our country,
00:27:29.300 | of the leaders of their local government.
00:27:32.020 | All of our children are gonna have two jobs.
00:27:34.240 | They are gonna be citizens of heaven and citizens
00:27:37.480 | of the city and state and country in which they live.
00:27:41.840 | And so we are equipping them to be good citizens
00:27:46.320 | when we equip them to think clearly,
00:27:49.800 | to listen well, and to ask good questions.
00:27:52.980 | That's really important.
00:27:55.240 | So that's what our students should do.
00:27:57.260 | You've already told us that as parents,
00:28:00.440 | one thing that we can do is study our scriptures
00:28:04.840 | and know what we believe and why we believe it
00:28:08.840 | and to bring those scriptures to bear
00:28:11.520 | as we lead our children to study.
00:28:13.440 | Are there other things that you think we as parents
00:28:16.880 | should do and think about and practice?
00:28:19.680 | - Absolutely.
00:28:21.600 | I think the concept of teaching our children
00:28:24.000 | to ask good questions is crucial.
00:28:26.520 | When you ask a good question,
00:28:30.000 | then the truth is revealed, right?
00:28:32.400 | If you don't know how to ask good questions
00:28:34.960 | and you're just reacting to things,
00:28:36.600 | then it gets all muddled.
00:28:38.480 | And so I think teaching our children to ask good questions
00:28:41.220 | is really, really important.
00:28:42.520 | And I think that's best modeled by a parent.
00:28:45.440 | When the child comes up and says,
00:28:48.740 | "Well, I think blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,"
00:28:51.160 | which can be full of foolishness as we know,
00:28:55.200 | the first question of saying, "Why do you think that?
00:28:58.800 | What support do you have for that?"
00:29:00.960 | And just allowing them to hear good questions being modeled.
00:29:05.960 | My husband is an expert in question asking.
00:29:09.720 | I would say I'm a novice, but he's done a lot of that.
00:29:13.200 | And the other things that come to mind, two things.
00:29:15.200 | One is that as parents,
00:29:17.920 | we need to give our children freedom gradually.
00:29:22.780 | What I mean by that is when they're four and five,
00:29:26.560 | they should not be being asked
00:29:28.680 | what type of math curriculum they would like to pursue.
00:29:31.600 | They can barely decide not to eat a crayon.
00:29:35.360 | So I feel like if you give your children gradual freedom,
00:29:41.160 | gradual independence, gradual decisions,
00:29:44.160 | instead of giving them too much and having to retract.
00:29:46.640 | So the way this looks like in our house
00:29:49.360 | is that every birthday,
00:29:51.680 | our children as part of their birthday celebration,
00:29:54.240 | get one new privilege and one new responsibility.
00:29:58.800 | And by the time they graduate, they have this freedom.
00:30:03.800 | I remember when Catherine, a few years ago,
00:30:06.600 | like around age 16, 17, 16, 15 maybe,
00:30:10.560 | we had been kind of watching her grow
00:30:12.600 | and how she chose food.
00:30:15.560 | Like what is a healthy, balanced, nutritious diet?
00:30:18.680 | And just kind of watching her ability
00:30:20.720 | to balance these things.
00:30:21.600 | And so for her birthday, her new freedom was,
00:30:25.420 | we were not going to tell her what she could and couldn't eat
00:30:28.780 | that she had that freedom.
00:30:30.460 | Because the truth is when they leave home,
00:30:32.780 | they've got that freedom.
00:30:34.120 | - Absolutely, and some don't know how to use it.
00:30:36.740 | - I know, so that was her new freedom
00:30:38.940 | because we had watched her and said,
00:30:41.140 | "She is ready for this new freedom."
00:30:43.220 | And so we didn't police her at the table, right?
00:30:46.180 | And so our son came to us and he was two years younger
00:30:50.500 | and he said to me,
00:30:52.300 | "Mommy, please don't ever give me that freedom.
00:30:54.340 | "I will be, I will be as big as a barn, please don't ever."
00:30:58.140 | He saw that freedom coming and said,
00:31:01.100 | "I don't have the maturity to handle it."
00:31:03.400 | And that has changed as he's gotten older.
00:31:06.260 | But the truth is we have gradually given them freedom.
00:31:09.640 | And I think parents who are just like,
00:31:11.520 | "Well, children need the experience
00:31:12.840 | "of making all these decisions for themselves
00:31:14.900 | "on whatever level."
00:31:16.620 | They often have to retract
00:31:18.060 | and we're taking away this device
00:31:19.820 | and we're taking away this privilege
00:31:21.220 | and the child becomes angry.
00:31:22.500 | And so it's been much more natural
00:31:25.340 | and edifying for us to do a gradual freedom,
00:31:29.240 | freedom and responsibility
00:31:32.520 | growing gradually in our children.
00:31:35.000 | And the other thought that comes to mind on little people
00:31:37.500 | is that we used captive car seat games all the time
00:31:42.540 | when our kids were little in the car.
00:31:44.620 | And so what we did that pushed them toward,
00:31:48.700 | thinking about choices, decisions,
00:31:50.660 | books and stuff in the future
00:31:51.940 | is we would play,
00:31:53.300 | and I may have told you this before, I don't know,
00:31:55.380 | we would play the kind unkind game,
00:31:58.340 | the wise unwise game, the truth lie game.
00:32:00.960 | And so when they were really, really tiny
00:32:03.860 | and it was always very silly,
00:32:05.180 | this is like pre-read, this is pre-reading,
00:32:07.260 | this is like four year olds, right?
00:32:08.740 | They're in the car and I would say,
00:32:10.500 | "Sissy is wearing a pink shirt."
00:32:12.380 | And they would say, "True, the dog likes to eat flowers."
00:32:17.380 | And they'd say, "Lie."
00:32:18.900 | And so we would work on truth and lie.
00:32:22.260 | Then as they got older, we would, a little bit older,
00:32:25.020 | this is still very little, we would do kind or unkind.
00:32:29.220 | Your Grammy bit the preacher's hand
00:32:31.060 | when he tried to shake it.
00:32:32.260 | (laughing)
00:32:33.820 | Those kinds of silliness, but it allowed them to say,
00:32:36.580 | "Oh, that's unkind."
00:32:37.940 | Or, "This is respectful or disrespectful."
00:32:39.940 | And later on, "This is wise or unwise."
00:32:41.740 | And we were training them to look at things
00:32:45.860 | and make a judgment call.
00:32:48.660 | And that did a couple of things.
00:32:50.300 | One, it prepared them for now when Catherine,
00:32:52.860 | gone away from home, looks at an option she has.
00:32:55.740 | She can say, "Does this fit the repository
00:32:58.540 | "of wise things I know?
00:33:00.540 | "Or does it fit the repository of unwise things that I know?"
00:33:04.100 | But it also, it made parenting easier
00:33:08.020 | in the sense that when I would say,
00:33:10.300 | "You need to be kind to your sister."
00:33:12.660 | There was a whole group of ideas in their minds
00:33:17.740 | of what that might look like.
00:33:19.260 | And it was taken out of the disciplinary,
00:33:23.020 | out of the stressful moments, into a game.
00:33:26.540 | And so, I think for little people,
00:33:29.060 | that was our saving grace for learning
00:33:33.060 | those first beginning skills of discernment and freedom.
00:33:36.780 | - And absolutely, it gives the children
00:33:39.420 | a huge sense of confidence and non-nervousness.
00:33:47.020 | They are, I can remember having friends
00:33:50.180 | who thought I was absolutely crazy.
00:33:52.300 | Mike, we would practice responses in advance with our girls.
00:33:57.300 | So, we are having a birthday party
00:34:00.400 | and people are gonna bring you gifts.
00:34:02.660 | If you get something you already have, what will you say?
00:34:07.020 | - Right.
00:34:07.860 | - If you get a present that you absolutely hate,
00:34:11.900 | what will you say?
00:34:13.980 | If somebody doesn't bring you a gift, what will you say?
00:34:17.800 | If somebody says something unkind
00:34:20.220 | about another person's gift.
00:34:21.580 | And so, we would role play those.
00:34:24.180 | We would come up with, what could you say
00:34:27.020 | that shows you appreciate that person
00:34:31.100 | and the thought that they had in bringing you a present
00:34:34.100 | to celebrate your birthday,
00:34:35.140 | even if you either have this already or hate it.
00:34:39.420 | What will you say?
00:34:40.260 | You will clearly not say, "I hate it," or, "I've got one."
00:34:43.660 | - Right.
00:34:44.560 | - Or, "I'm gonna take this back," or, "Do you have a receipt?"
00:34:47.460 | But it put them at ease because here's the deal,
00:34:52.140 | little people who want to do the right thing
00:34:56.580 | in the heat of a moment don't always know what to do.
00:35:00.740 | And so, sometimes a very, even to them,
00:35:04.020 | an appropriate thing will come out if you don't practice.
00:35:07.980 | And so, I love that as a super practical way
00:35:11.580 | of beginning to grow kind, compassionate,
00:35:16.180 | merciful, gracious humans.
00:35:19.420 | So, let me ask you this.
00:35:22.560 | You've given us some, what it looks like in the short term,
00:35:27.260 | you know, at home, being able to choose your own food.
00:35:30.680 | We did something very similar to that
00:35:33.420 | in being able to choose your own bedtime
00:35:36.480 | or to choose your own clothes
00:35:38.460 | or to choose what books to choose at the library
00:35:42.820 | or books to read.
00:35:43.660 | As they were growing up, they got different freedoms
00:35:45.860 | based on their obvious readiness for said freedom.
00:35:49.700 | What will be the result, do you suspect,
00:35:54.180 | if we do not teach our children
00:35:57.460 | about the responsibilities of Christian freedom?
00:36:01.340 | What if we don't lead them to accept them
00:36:04.880 | and manage them well?
00:36:06.640 | What will happen?
00:36:08.400 | - Well, I think if we do not teach our children
00:36:11.920 | how to manage the responsibilities of Christian freedom,
00:36:14.480 | they are going to be taught.
00:36:16.780 | Children don't just stay a blank slate
00:36:19.940 | and someone's gonna teach them something.
00:36:21.820 | And I think the world is very, very happy
00:36:26.080 | to come along with a counter message.
00:36:30.060 | And, you know, I was just thinking about this the other day,
00:36:32.120 | I heard Alistair Begg preaching
00:36:33.580 | and he referenced the Bob Dylan song,
00:36:37.160 | "Gotta Serve Someone."
00:36:38.340 | I think is what it's called.
00:36:39.180 | - Yes, yes, I think so.
00:36:40.540 | - And how the story goes that he became a believer
00:36:44.060 | and he wrote this song, you know,
00:36:45.480 | it may be the devil and it may be the Lord,
00:36:47.260 | but you're gonna have to serve someone.
00:36:49.340 | Well, the story goes, and I don't know how accurate it is,
00:36:52.100 | but that John Lennon found that very offensive
00:36:55.480 | and he wrote a counter song.
00:36:57.860 | And in his counter song, it was all about,
00:37:00.060 | you gotta serve yourself.
00:37:01.980 | And I think that's a beautiful example of the fact that,
00:37:05.840 | and a sobering example of the fact
00:37:07.340 | that the world has an alternate message.
00:37:10.580 | It is being pumped continuously out there
00:37:15.580 | and our children are going to encounter it.
00:37:17.620 | And so I think if we do not teach our children
00:37:20.060 | how to manage the Christian responsibility,
00:37:24.900 | the responsibilities of Christian freedom,
00:37:27.180 | they will just follow the world.
00:37:30.020 | They will serve themselves.
00:37:31.660 | They will make it about themselves.
00:37:36.680 | And if they're not surrendered to the Lord,
00:37:38.820 | then they are gonna be surrendered to someone.
00:37:41.080 | And that's not an option.
00:37:43.260 | We are gonna serve someone.
00:37:44.480 | So I think the sobering thing is that they will be taught
00:37:49.400 | and they will follow someone.
00:37:51.880 | And so the intentionality that we have
00:37:54.380 | as classical Christian educators
00:37:57.340 | is a beautiful and sobering task.
00:38:00.420 | - That is, that's great.
00:38:01.840 | That is an awesome, put the period to the discussion.
00:38:06.420 | I love that.
00:38:07.260 | Thank you so much, Charity.
00:38:08.400 | It's so funny, as you were talking about,
00:38:11.640 | you're gonna have to, your children will make a decision
00:38:14.140 | and they will follow the right values
00:38:16.340 | or they will follow the selfish world.
00:38:20.040 | It reminds me, I was gonna tell people today
00:38:22.640 | about a movie that's coming out.
00:38:26.500 | It's called "Miracle in East Texas."
00:38:28.680 | It kinda goes along with, are you gonna serve yourself
00:38:31.240 | or are you gonna do the right thing?
00:38:32.940 | This movie's coming out in October.
00:38:35.660 | The end of October.
00:38:37.100 | And it is about doing what's right.
00:38:40.660 | And it's a movie that your whole family can enjoy.
00:38:42.800 | Okay, so you won't be embarrassed
00:38:44.780 | to have your little kids watch it.
00:38:47.240 | It is the true story.
00:38:50.440 | It's a true story.
00:38:51.560 | It's about the biggest oil strike
00:38:53.740 | in the history of the world.
00:38:56.000 | It happened right at the dawn of the Great Depression.
00:39:00.040 | The story, it's kinda fun.
00:39:02.040 | I mean, I can't, I sorta now can't wait to see it.
00:39:04.720 | It follows the story of two con men
00:39:07.460 | who are gonna convince investors
00:39:10.420 | to invest in these worthless oil rigs
00:39:13.700 | but then they discover these oil rigs
00:39:16.660 | are not so worthless after all.
00:39:19.120 | Maybe this would be a really good teaching tool.
00:39:22.660 | It would definitely bring up
00:39:24.580 | a lot of good discussions and families.
00:39:27.140 | It's called "Miracle in East Texas."
00:39:30.940 | It is a Kevin Sorbo film.
00:39:34.760 | It is coming to a theater near you, we hope, October 29th.
00:39:39.380 | If you wanna get tickets now
00:39:41.460 | or find out where it's coming,
00:39:43.440 | you can visit sorbostudios.com.
00:39:48.440 | That's Sorbo Studios, S-O-R-B-O, studios.com
00:39:53.440 | and find out more information about that.
00:39:57.240 | Charity, thank you so much for being with me today.
00:40:00.100 | This has been a fun topic to think through with you
00:40:04.860 | and I appreciate both your deep insights
00:40:07.900 | and your practical tips.
00:40:09.680 | - Thank you, Lisa.
00:40:11.420 | It's always fun to hang out with you.
00:40:13.060 | - I love it.
00:40:13.900 | Okay, listeners, take the good from this
00:40:16.580 | and go be everyday educators in your own home
00:40:19.620 | and I'll see you next week.
00:40:21.060 | Bye.
00:40:21.900 | (gentle music)
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